#career-advice | Python | Page 324

hushed kestrel Dec 18, 2019, 2:46 PM

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There are rarely codified / certified consultants in the 'Make a website for a restaurant and manage their ad campaign by placing ads in local magazines, local news papers, yelp, ' industry

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Most people who run businesses aren't capable and are pretty dumb in so many ways. They haven't tried reaching out to people for help because they don't know how

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So when a solution comes a'knocking, they can see the value.

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The visibility in the consulting industry is like looking through a lake underwater

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It's pretty F@#$ing muddy

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It's only when you start consulting for industry professionals that you are going to have some trouble, because these people ACTUALLY know what they are talking about and there is a larger onus on you to impress them

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But by the time you are going to work for them, you'll already have done projects for 5-20 people

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And you'll know your scope of work and you would have worked out the kinks in your system

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Once you get a few bigger clients under your belt, you are competting in the big leagues. At some point it will be about Who you worked with, and how successful you were working on large sized projects, ect ect

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But breaking in is perfectly fine / easy with dedicated work

hardy ferry Dec 18, 2019, 2:50 PM

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I still don't see it working that well out. I'm agreeing with you on a lot of things but my main point is I don't see how an independent can be successful straight away. He will have to actively sell his service. I'm from Germany and there aren't that many tech companies + consultant usually show up in person. Mainly because most tech related problems aren't pure software furthermore communication is important.

little prairie Dec 18, 2019, 2:51 PM

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Do I usually need to do phone/web chat videos with clients on upwork?

hushed kestrel Dec 18, 2019, 2:51 PM

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PythonKoder, print("Yes"*30)

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They aren't just interviewing you, you are interviewing them

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Linly, when you start out, you are not consulting for tech companies

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The only people who start consulting for tech companies are stupid /ambitious people who graduate from top schools with an 'in' to those companies

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You need to be able to create opportunities for yourself.

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I was able to get an escape room to pay me 5k for a Hardware job after 1 cold email with some back and forth and 1 in person meeting

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after having worked like, 10-15 jobs on upwork

little prairie Dec 18, 2019, 2:54 PM

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I need to take some professional photos I think for my profile picture

hushed kestrel Dec 18, 2019, 2:54 PM

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If you are able to do any sort of business/revenue analysis of the value to their business you are providing as a consultant/whatever

little prairie Dec 18, 2019, 2:56 PM

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Oh wow, I also see people hiring for actual on site jobs, didn't know that was a thing on upwork

hushed kestrel Dec 18, 2019, 2:56 PM

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"if I automate your sales report, inventory management system, setup a database for you, improve your add campaign" I am saving you X hours a month worth $Y/H, X*Y = 500/m, over a year you'll save 6k, I want 4k to do the job.

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If you are local, your added value goes up

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Being a consultant != being a contractor

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The most important part of getting clients is building trust and alleviating anxiety

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You have heard this a thousand times from sales people. It turns out it is true.

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What sucks about having done consulting for a year or two is that I haven't been able to translate that experience /competitance that much into $$ for my career coding job

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I was able to work as a principle engineer on a RnD project, but I was still only making entry level money

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Which is a bit BS given how hard I worked and how valuable my skillset is.

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I think that covers the basics.

TL;DR Takeaways
*Remove all ambiguity from client interactions;

Scope your project incredibly well by breaking down every step into an excel sheet and estimating the time it will take to complete then mark down how much time it actually took to complete (This feedback is necessary to get good)
*Be quick is better than being smart. Fast/instant responses will give you a competitive advantage
*Make sure you present trust.

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Also, anyone who is managing their time should use something like https://getplan.co/

stoic ruin Dec 18, 2019, 11:43 PM

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Is there any discussion here about Codecademy? Just started with it, and would like to hear feedback. Thanks I’m advance.

hardy briar Dec 19, 2019, 1:51 AM

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what is this

open patio Dec 19, 2019, 1:52 AM

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ahh did you mean to post that in an off-topic channel?

radiant moon Dec 19, 2019, 1:53 AM

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oops

little prairie Dec 19, 2019, 2:53 PM

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@hushed kestrel

When submitting proposals on Upwork should I send a coding example of the problem they are trying to solve?

hushed kestrel Dec 19, 2019, 4:47 PM

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@little prairie "If you are good at something never do it for free."- Joker, The

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If you are absolutely starting out and you want clients fast, it's ...ugh 'fine' to do work to try to get a client, but you are devaluing your time IMHO

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The only way it is worth is that if you don't have a portfolio, you are then using specific client requests to build projects that you can show off to other people.

If a lot of clients are looking for scraping work and have a decent project description, you can copy that description, work on a scraping project and then show that off to that client / others as you try to become a reliable person in that niche

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If you are starting out, Clients favor speed and any time you spend developing takes away from speed.

It's much more important to tailor a proposal to your client's need to compete against people who are shoving out boiler plate proposals using bots than to develop on their project.

It's also doubly bad to develop for a project because your typical success rate of getting a project (I think for me it was around 3-9% of proposals were accepted) ((TRACK YOUR NUMBERS BTW)) It means that if your dev work is worth 35-50/h + overhead, you are actually valuing your time at 3.5-5$/ h - overhead

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(If you have similar success rate as I had)

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The only reason to do it is to gain a higher conversion rate which will save you time submitting proposals or if you can somehow convert the extra work into larger contracts that will save your time from having to manage clients and get paid per hour of work

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If somehow you aren't saving time with it, you are shooting yourself in the foot and should spend your time developing your business

little prairie Dec 19, 2019, 8:41 PM

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Thanks @hushed kestrel very insightful and useful information, as always. I've completed my first proposal w/o any free code. I instead sent a complete outline of how I plan to do the work and the tools I will use to deliver them. I am eager to see if it gets any response.

hushed kestrel Dec 19, 2019, 8:44 PM

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The goal is to keep sending proposals, keep track of response rate, make sure proposals are tailored. if your response rate sucks, figure out how to make your proposal better. If the client asks for something like a portfolio, make sure to have one on hand, ect ect

unkempt ferry Dec 19, 2019, 11:54 PM

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ok! still not quite there as far as getting a dev role, but huge leap! I just signed an offer for Information Security Analyst position here in bellevue!

ancient bloom Dec 20, 2019, 12:21 AM

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im proud of u

proper dirge Dec 20, 2019, 2:27 AM

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what was your project (if any) that you showed to your first employer?

unkempt ferry Dec 20, 2019, 10:25 AM

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This one isn't a dev role so they didn't really look at my projects. Sorry.

vague echo Dec 20, 2019, 2:29 PM

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does anyone live in the uk ?

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I found a 6 month internship in the UK and I was wondering if I will have to pay taxes

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https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/tax/income-tax-how-much-should-you-pay/income-tax-rates/

Income tax rates

Covers the percentage rates of income tax for the current year and the previous four years and explains how to calculate the tax.

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during my 6 months I'll earn less than 12,500 but if I count in year I'll earn more than 12,500

little prairie Dec 20, 2019, 3:02 PM

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Seems as though learning Wordpress and relearning PhP is mandatory to be a successful freelance web developer? Am I accurate in this assumption?

vague echo Dec 20, 2019, 3:05 PM

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lol

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php is so 2010

little prairie Dec 20, 2019, 3:08 PM

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Yea, but it seems many companies seeking to update or have their website redesigned or have features added are using PhP.

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I was surprised as well to see so many companies still using Wordpress

vast shoal Dec 20, 2019, 3:17 PM

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@little prairie It certainly doesn't hurt. It is true that Wordpress is still widely used.

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I don't know about mandatory.

gilded valley Dec 20, 2019, 4:00 PM

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@vague echo You will be taxed as though you're working the full year at the salary of the internship. Then, once the internship is over, you can claim back any tax you've paid over what you should

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They should take the money out of your paycheck via PAYE, and you don't have to worry til the internship has ended

hushed kestrel Dec 20, 2019, 4:37 PM

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Web dev is a very broad range TBH

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If you are looking for clients with no technical skill and you are going to setup a website for them

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Wordpress or squarespace or whatever is going to be your goto

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But you could do webdev back end which is completely different, or UX design, or or or, ect.

torpid bolt Dec 20, 2019, 5:14 PM

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it certainly depends on location, there are a lot of recruiters looking for python devs, and some will be keen on putting you on 6 months or 1 year python backend missions.

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i didn't do that myself, but i know people that do

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long term missions with freelance pay is kind of a win win

vapid jay Dec 20, 2019, 7:14 PM

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If anyone here has experience with coding machine learning, please drop me a line

shut geyser Dec 20, 2019, 7:17 PM

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The channel data science have machine learning enthousiasts

vapid jay Dec 21, 2019, 11:35 AM

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I know a bit of Machine learning

vapid jay Dec 21, 2019, 1:45 PM

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is python good for developing dekstop applications etc?

high coyote Dec 21, 2019, 1:45 PM

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Yes

vapid jay Dec 21, 2019, 1:50 PM

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so im learning tkinter right now, should i stick with it or is there anything better?

high coyote Dec 21, 2019, 1:55 PM

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It's highly subjective, there are multiple popular toolkits with different strengths and weaknesses. Doing a project in any of them will be more valuable than worrying about the differences between them, you'll learn similar things

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I'd say people tend to think tkinter isn't the best, but it isn't bad and it's quite popular

torpid bolt Dec 21, 2019, 4:46 PM

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i think it's mostly popular for being there by default, i did small stuff with it and i found it a bit limited, but maybe it was just me, the way it does layouting didn't fit me, but it works, you can do a lot with it.

rare sand Dec 21, 2019, 7:06 PM

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@vapid jay Kivy is pretty good. So is Pyside2. tkinter is a dated mess.

thick shale Dec 21, 2019, 8:19 PM

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PySide2 for me.

shadow moss Dec 22, 2019, 1:32 AM

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@vapid jay Unless you are targeting GUI job, you probably get better bang for learning time learning web unless you are just 100% up on web

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Most GUI stuff is legacy, newer software is web based and even then, alot of GUI stuff is slowly becoming web

torpid bolt Dec 22, 2019, 1:58 AM

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while it's hard to say this is false, i do think it's a very limited view, a lot of gui is done with web technology because that's what people know, and it doesn't mean it's the best tool for that

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while the web platform has a lot of strong points, programming applications with it is still nightmarishly complex imho, compared to what you can do with "heavy" clients (which are most of the time a lot lighter than web apps embedded into a chrome/electron window)

shadow moss Dec 22, 2019, 3:46 AM

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tshirtman, decision to do so are mostly made from business point of view

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from app provider side, there are several business advantages:

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You can charge subscription fee and it's very easy to cut off use to your software for lack of payment

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You can deliver your software to any device with browser which is pretty much all of them, almost instantly

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you don't have to deal with application updates from support point of view, update the web app, all clients are magically updated

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from end user point of view:

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All you need is one application every device has

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You don't have to deal with updates

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It runs everywhere with internet connection

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App Provider has all the data, one less server to back up

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I do believe for certain Apps, Desktop application makes sense, but business tends to disagree

vague echo Dec 22, 2019, 10:27 AM

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thanks @gilded valley

torpid bolt Dec 22, 2019, 12:46 PM

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Right, but… for the business

not all browser behave the same you have to deal with specific bugs, per browser, and per version of browser, the more complex your app, the more likely it is to matter
you don't control the runtime, they can update right behind you, unless you package with electron, giving up a significant part of the points you mentionned
web technologies have a habbit of getting deprecated as fast as they are built, and sometime to be promising and to stay in limbo of partial support for a decade
javascript
for the user…
you give up on the multitasking UX of your os, delegating it all to the subpar interface of tabs in a browser
the bloat of running another complex layer between your app and your cpu, that has to be very cautious about security considering the amount of important things that are going in there, and thus is not very efficient (despite billions in investment by big companies), adds up so your browser eats all your ram, and you don't have great control over the things that run into it. (i tend to gain 1h or more of autonomy by freezing firefox when i don't need it, and chrome is not better).
generally can't be used offline, although it tend to be less and less of a problem in rich countries, it still is, and it's worse in less advanced ones.

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anyway, it's not really the place for this debate, just wanted to answer your points

radiant moon Dec 22, 2019, 11:46 PM

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personally I can't remember the last time I installed a GUI app that wasn't electron

mint citrus Dec 23, 2019, 1:07 AM

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there are too many people in here pming me about career stuff 😠

rare sand Dec 23, 2019, 1:10 AM

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@mint citrus really? why do you think that's happening?

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sounds kind of unusual

mint citrus Dec 23, 2019, 1:10 AM

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too much for me lol

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i think in the last week i got like 5 pms

rare sand Dec 23, 2019, 1:11 AM

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I get 5 on a quiet day. but you're significantly less visible so it's a bit weird.

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just dm a moderator if someone is bothering you, otherwise politely let them know you'd rather not speak in dms?

mint citrus Dec 23, 2019, 1:12 AM

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yeah thats what ive been doing

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I usually tell them to direct their questions on #career-advice

rare sand Dec 23, 2019, 1:13 AM

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sounds good.

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I'm curious why you're being singled out. have you been very active in here?

mint citrus Dec 23, 2019, 1:13 AM

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it was more just a comment on like people asking about what we do for like some school project or something

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im somewhat active

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I think they pm a bunch of people

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I doubt im the only one

rare sand Dec 23, 2019, 1:14 AM

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that's probably true. we would prefer if career discussions could be kept in #career-advice though, guys

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so that people lurking here can benefit from them.

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:05 AM

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Guys am in my first year doing Cs do you think it's possible to find internships or real experiences😭?

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I'm really dying for them but seems impossible

mint citrus Dec 23, 2019, 9:09 AM

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your first year is a bit early

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unless you can do something at least

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try to pick up personal projects

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:11 AM

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Mainly websites or games

left escarp Dec 23, 2019, 9:12 AM

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most universities dont allow interships in the first year, it starts from the 3rd year or sometimes in the 2nd year(thats how it is in my city tho)

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u can try talking to ur teacher about this

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:13 AM

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From UK and yes it's always from 3rd or 4th year

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I was thinking about doing outreachy or summer Google but

mint citrus Dec 23, 2019, 9:13 AM

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yeah they prob want someone with more knowledge from uni

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:13 AM

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With open source I am so new

left escarp Dec 23, 2019, 9:14 AM

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if ur new to open source, pydis is here! u can start with @flat anvil

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#542272993192050698

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:14 AM

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Don't even know where to start they would probably refuse me

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Can you give me more details please @left escarp

left escarp Dec 23, 2019, 9:15 AM

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@flat anvil is a community project(open source), its a discord bot

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you will need a little knowledge of discord.py

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they even have their website and @inner wren bot

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https://github.com/python-discord

GitHub

Python Discord

The hottest Python community on Discord. Python Discord has 24 repositories available. Follow their code on GitHub.

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:18 AM

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Oh sounds cool

gilded valley Dec 23, 2019, 9:24 AM

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@feral oar it's definitely possible to do a first year internship
I did one last year in the UK, and 3/30 interns were first years

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Need to apply now though

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Or preferably 2 months ago

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:25 AM

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Oh can you tell me if you can sites or where to ask?

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Keep in mind maybe next year

gilded valley Dec 23, 2019, 9:26 AM

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Gradcracker is the main one

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:28 AM

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Thanks

opal perch Dec 23, 2019, 9:29 AM

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There aren't many out there that are for first years Kinz, but if you look around enough, you might be able to find some stuff

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:31 AM

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Yeah definitely start looking seriously during 2year

opal perch Dec 23, 2019, 9:33 AM

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2nd year gets harder but dont fall for the trap of not putting any time towards looking for internships, all the good internships will be gone by middle to late november.

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are you in the uk kinz?

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 9:34 AM

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Yeah Scotland to be precise

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How it gets harder?

opal perch Dec 23, 2019, 10:00 AM

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Just the assignments get bigger. Maybe the level of work gets more difficult as well.

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 10:02 AM

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Yeah I checked and I have data structures and alghoritm

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ALL IN ONE SEMESTER

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Is that even possible

opal perch Dec 23, 2019, 10:02 AM

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Yea apparently so

vast shoal Dec 23, 2019, 10:08 AM

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Data structures and algorithms are normally taught in one class, as they are basically the same thing.

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 10:08 AM

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Social life bout to get canceled

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Yeah but I searched and they are so many arguments

vast shoal Dec 23, 2019, 10:09 AM

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It's a really good class, probably one of the most useful you will take.

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 10:10 AM

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Yeah I took intro to Cs and discrete

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...... I played a lot

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Like I wasn't taking them seriously but I still passed with a first, now we are in school break so I'm trying to catch up and revise the things that weren't so clear lol

vast shoal Dec 23, 2019, 10:12 AM

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If your school is anything like mine, things are going to escalate quickly, so I'd recommend you try to stay ahead of the curve from now on.

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 10:13 AM

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I attend the university of stirling

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Yeah I think I will do so

opal perch Dec 23, 2019, 10:14 AM

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Yea in general uni gets harder throughout the years.

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 10:15 AM

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Yeah my first semester was pretty much a joke

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Even though some coding exercises I found them hard 😂😂😂

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Made me question where was I

opal perch Dec 23, 2019, 10:16 AM

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Yea, first year is a hit or miss. The uni is trying to get everyone on the same level, so they won't go too quickly.

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 10:18 AM

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But I felt like the lecture as well where a rip of from Wikipedia

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That's why I didn't even attend must lectures they didn't make sense like 😐I can read this shit online sir

marsh wind Dec 23, 2019, 10:47 AM

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There are many like that

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Truly talented lectureres are far and between

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Well, maybe I exaggerated a bit, but still

feral oar Dec 23, 2019, 11:32 AM

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Tru

static breach Dec 23, 2019, 12:26 PM

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I just got accepted to mathematics program at university. From what ive heard, python is being used (mainly statistics).

Im trying to get ahead and prepare. I assume a lot of you guys had the same or similar courses. What can i expect?

What else should i be looking into?

Any input is welcome

vast shoal Dec 23, 2019, 12:51 PM

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@static breach If you have no previous programming experience, I suggest just looking into the basics to start with.

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We usually recommend https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ for complete beginners.

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I'm not sure exactly what you're likely to encounter in a math program, but if you're going to be using Python, you will likely use numpy: https://numpy.org/

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Which is part of https://www.scipy.org/, all of which looks like it's going to be highly relevant in general.

static breach Dec 23, 2019, 1:10 PM

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I know some basic JavaScript/nodejs from playing around with discord bots. Other than that im doing a python tutorial using pycharm.

Thanks for the links. I Will look them up

marsh wind Dec 23, 2019, 2:04 PM

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However if it's math course I wouldn't expect much coding there. And it's quite possible that it will be C rather than python

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I'd expect lots of calculus, linear algebra and things like that when you will start

static breach Dec 23, 2019, 2:38 PM

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That i am expecting 🙂

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However learning one programming language should be better than 0, and the type of programming we will be doing could be done in Python as far as I'm aware, so i'll start here and see where it takes me. If i have no use for it in class then at least i learned something new.

vast shoal Dec 23, 2019, 2:50 PM

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Most math/stats courses I've taken have been mostly Matlab, R or some other high-level language

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Python has more or less the same facilities, though

proper dirge Dec 23, 2019, 5:11 PM

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I would love a swe job. I just graduated with BS in cybersecurity.. but ive been coding off and on for a few years just recently taking it more seriously. Info sec roles tend to pay higher than software jobs imo. But, problem solving in software is more fun

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i have security+, oscp and a few other security certs

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i just need to get better at coding before im taken seriously i think..

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these are the thoughts roaming in my head lol i dont have a specific question.. just typing to whoever

ivory mural Dec 23, 2019, 5:13 PM

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My experience was that competency was a much lower bar than I expected. Getting started was a matter of applying my skills (such as they were at the time) to tasks at my current job until I gained the noticed of leadership, then transitioning to a dev job.

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After a couple of years of that I was able to land a good SWE job.

proper dirge Dec 23, 2019, 5:14 PM

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Was your first job a swe role?

ivory mural Dec 23, 2019, 5:14 PM

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No, not really.

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My first "professional" job was at FedEx Freight, as an Intranet Administrator. That job was 90%+ forwarding policy change documents in Word between managers and getting all the appropriate approvals before updating the raw HTML on the company intranet.

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I went Intranet Administrator > Intranet Analyst > Process Improvement Analyst > Sr Analyst, Systems & Performance support. That all happened from 2007 to 2013.

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In 2013 I moved to Charlottesville, VA for a true SWE job at a startup. I was there for three years and have been bouncing around between startups in various stages and fields since 2016-ish.

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The pay is better, I've been able to successfully transition to 100% remote, and I was able to move back to my home town where the cost of living is much lower.

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Here's my job history: http://linkedin.com/in/lyndsysimon

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It's not directly related to what you're looking for, since I'm not in security per se, but I'm happy to provide any insights I can into how I got where I am.

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One big tip I have is that I list FedEx on my resume using only the final title and the start/end dates of my entire time at the company. That made it appear at first glance that I'd been doing FT dev work for longer than I really had. I was clear about my experience in technical interviews especially but this approach was useful to get me past "HR filters".

proper dirge Dec 23, 2019, 5:22 PM

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Did you code in your free time while working at FedEx? Did you complete any notable projects that you showed to the first employer that hired you as a swe?

ivory mural Dec 23, 2019, 5:26 PM

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I did code in my free time, but didn't have anything substantial on GitHub. I built an enterprise reporting system while I was at FedEx, but it was proprietary.

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When I moved to Process Improvement, I was tasked with manually updating a dozen or so Excel reports every Monday. I automated that using VBScript (IIRC), and spent my Mondays playing with Django and trying to get it to hook into IIS's ability to detect the logged-in user when they were using IE. I managed that and had a simple proof-of-concept that would detect the user, pull their domicile location and job title, then give them a list of links to reports that they likely needed so they wouldn't have to constantly dig through shared drives. I was playing with using KendoUI to present charts and graphs when my side work was "discovered".

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I was pulled aside first thing one Monday because an executive wanted a graphic for a PowerPoint deck "right now", and told to put off the Monday reports. I said "no problem", but told them that the reports would be going out on the regular schedule unless I stopped them because I'd automated them. My manager wasn't happy at first and demanded to know what I'd been spending my time on, but once I showed him what I had so far and the simple project plan that I'd put together for myself, he did a 180 and told me to keep at it and stay quiet about it. I did that for another month or so, then we presented it to the director of that area. I was pulled off Excel reports and spent a few weeks building out a more fully-featured proof of concept while they hired a manager and two other employees to work on my project.

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All was peachy with that for a year or so, when IT realized that 35k people were using a reporting app every day that was controlled by the business side and that they didn't have full control over. The decision was made to rewrite it in .NET and move our group to IT. They canceled the trip I had approved and planned for PyCon 2013, which was the thing that really made me unhappy. I sold a bunch of stuff and went anyway; came back with a better job. I gave my two weeks' notice and moved across the country with my family.

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Is that enough info? 🙂

halcyon plank Dec 23, 2019, 7:28 PM

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Hey! Could anyone recommend me a work for home internship for first year CS students (if exists) 😄

vapid jay Dec 23, 2019, 8:08 PM

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I had this idea, please tell me if anything like this exists. I'd like to team up with someone and take some freelance jobs. I'd want to do this to test my skill level, start guessing how long projects take me, and learn how to work with others.

shadow moss Dec 23, 2019, 8:11 PM

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Souldust, likely, legal stuff would get in the way

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since anyone who would wnat to do this, would require contracts and like

vapid jay Dec 23, 2019, 8:16 PM

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hhmmm, crap baskets - didn't think about that

hushed kestrel Dec 23, 2019, 10:25 PM

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Legal stuff wouldn't get in the way

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I mean, any sort of freelance work does require contracts, and there should be a contract / some record for the profit split /responsibilities between you and your partner

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Especially if it is someone else that you don't know that well.

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It isn't hard to get someone on board, declare an 'Hours tracking ' app and divide profit by the weight of hours put into a project

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Then you just send an invoice and get paid into an account that is dedicated for the business

stone ledge Dec 24, 2019, 1:02 AM

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so I decided to learn myself Python, what carrers besides data science does python have? just curious

proper dirge Dec 24, 2019, 1:14 AM

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only limited by your imagination ... and if the system has python installed on it

mint citrus Dec 24, 2019, 1:14 AM

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im sure there is a lot of optimization and atomization jobs

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like automating builds and such

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there is also some webdev as well. using that python framework

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django

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and flask

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tbh, i would lean multiple languages and not only python. Im sure you will end up learning another language or two on the job as well

lime hamlet Dec 24, 2019, 1:25 AM

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How does everyone feel about the value of sites like hackerrank and codewars for actually learning to code?

mint citrus Dec 24, 2019, 1:25 AM

#

I never used them and never will

#

imo they are great for you own academic purposes

#

in the end it doesnt really show if you are a good coder

lime hamlet Dec 24, 2019, 1:26 AM

#

I'm less interested in showing that im good

#

and more interested in becoming good

mint citrus Dec 24, 2019, 1:26 AM

#

do your own projects

#

dont do only hackerrank and codewars

#

if you really want to stand out, do your own stuff. make something

lime hamlet Dec 24, 2019, 1:27 AM

#

I actually have a project that I'm working on!

shy quail Dec 24, 2019, 1:29 AM

#

Yo folks! I got 2 job offers and kinda wondering if I made the right choice?
1:
monthly starting salary: 3000
monthly salary after 6 months: 3500-4000
bonuses: full remote job after the 3rd month
yearly bonuses: 300-500

2:
monthly starting salary: 4000
bonuses: latest macbook
yearly bonuses: 4000-12000

Should i go for the more money? and ditch the remote option?

mint citrus Dec 24, 2019, 1:29 AM

#

thats something you need to decide for yourself

#

what are your values? whats more important to you?

#

is it more important to be able to work from home?

#

is pay more important to you?

#

there are a lot of factors that come into play. how is the work environment?

shy quail Dec 24, 2019, 1:32 AM

#

well both are important for me

#

both teams work env are good

#

the one with low pay i might be able to create my own team or at least i will be the first person in this team (security) so i will learn/face a lot of stuff

lime hamlet Dec 24, 2019, 1:34 AM

#

I would take the remote job in a heartbeat personally, but I agree with @mint citrus, you have to decide for yourself.

shy quail Dec 24, 2019, 1:35 AM

#

honestly im doing 2 years work from home

#

and not sure if i can adapt to go to office daily

vapid jay Dec 24, 2019, 2:33 AM

#

who worked at fedex

#

macbook as a bonus? get cash.. lol

rare sand Dec 24, 2019, 7:50 AM

#

I worked remote for years and thought I enjoyed it, but in my current job I have the choice between going into an office or working remote, and I find myself choosing to go into the office pretty much every day.

#

I really enjoy the office culture we got, and it's super valuable to be able to interact directly with my teammates and colleagues.

#

I really doubt I'd even consider an offer that didn't involve at least the option of working in a space with other humans at this point. It's nice to have the flexibility to work remote some of the days, though.

shadow moss Dec 24, 2019, 1:53 PM

#

where I'm opposite after work shoved us into open office, please leave me at home!

vapid jay Dec 24, 2019, 4:40 PM

#

yeah I love working with my team, it's something that makes me nervous about switching jobs

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 6:51 PM

#

Hello

#

I have a question for those who have been programming for a long time.

#

Usually, when I ask "how to get good at programming?" people tell me practice. Which I understand, but, every leetcode or other website coding challenge that I do feels repetitive! What am I doing wrong?

hushed kestrel Dec 24, 2019, 6:53 PM

#

I can tell you how to get better if you want.

#

I've only been coding for 2-3 years

#

First part of the answer is framing. What does 'getting better' look like? For data scientists, it's being able to work faster + wrangle data + make better inferences on data

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 6:54 PM

#

@grave mirage the only thing that made me better was going through a recursion exercise book and i only know about 1

#

if you really want to get good, it'll take you about a month and a half to go through the book properly

hushed kestrel Dec 24, 2019, 6:55 PM

#

For web dev, it's speed + tool usage mastery + getting stack familiarity with css Js, python, w/e

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 6:55 PM

#

By getting better I mean getting good at programming in general

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 6:55 PM

#

yes

#

recursion made everything easier for me for a lot of reasons i can go into

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 6:55 PM

#

but isnt a recursion book gonna make you good at recursion only?

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 6:56 PM

#

no

#

everything is recursion

#

every problem can be broken down recursively

thick shale Dec 24, 2019, 6:56 PM

#

You will know when you got better because you’ll look at a previous thing you built and realized you can build it better now 🙂

#

So I say start by having some idea of what you want to accomplish and build with python

hushed kestrel Dec 24, 2019, 6:56 PM

#

Traditionally the way to get generally better at programming is first
Learn the syntax of a language
Learn a few packages that are relevant to your interest (for python and for me it's numpy+pandas)

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 6:56 PM

#

Yeah I'm worried about the fact that I've been leetcoding for a bit and I feel like everything is repetitive.

thick shale Dec 24, 2019, 6:57 PM

#

Then build something for real

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 6:57 PM

#

if you honestly want to get better, the only way i know is by learning to think recursively

#

things like callbacks are a lot easier to understand if you have done a lot of recursion

hushed kestrel Dec 24, 2019, 6:57 PM

#

Then after making a few sample programs, you should learn algo's + data structures that is basically expanding your toolbelt

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 6:58 PM

#

understanding that everything is a function call makes things easier as well

hushed kestrel Dec 24, 2019, 6:58 PM

#

Getting better isn't just understanding everything is a functioncall

#

Getting better is a method

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 6:58 PM

#

if you understand that x = 5 is really set(x,5)

#

it makes things simpler

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 6:59 PM

#

What's the recursion book you think I should go with?

hushed kestrel Dec 24, 2019, 6:59 PM

#

fluent python

#

is an advanced python book

#

Screw just learning recursion

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 6:59 PM

#

The Little Schemer. you have to go through it with pencil and paper though. write down every question. write down every answer.

#

then try to apply the lessons to the code you're writing

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 7:00 PM

#

So like I should study it like a course?

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 7:00 PM

#

yes exactly

#

treat it seriously

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 7:00 PM

#

Alright

#

🙂

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 7:01 PM

#

its a simple book that will take you from 0 to beginner

#

and by beginner i mean you won't have to google how to solve everything

#

you will be able to solve most things on your own, and google will just be for looking up the standard library

thick shale Dec 24, 2019, 7:02 PM

#

Also learn proper design patterns as well

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 7:02 PM

#

What is that?

#

Is that like OOP things?

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 7:02 PM

#

recursion will force you to learn that defining small functions and passing a lot of functions is actually a better way to code even though at feels very counter intuitive at first

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 7:03 PM

#

Oh so like having 10 functions to do 1 thing?

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 7:04 PM

#

yeah but you'll learn that from experience

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 7:04 PM

#

alright 🙂

#

Thank you guys for the tips (I've taken notes 🙂 )

neat ether Dec 24, 2019, 7:04 PM

#

its pretty normal to write huge functions when you're starting out

grave mirage Dec 24, 2019, 7:04 PM

#

yeah

#

always doin that XD

hushed kestrel Dec 24, 2019, 7:07 PM

#

Dedicated practice on your weakness

#

is the way to go

thick shale Dec 24, 2019, 7:07 PM

#

https://www.toptal.com/python/python-design-patterns

Toptal Engineering Blog

Python Design Patterns: For Sleek And Fashionable Code

Python is a powerful, object-based, high-level programming language with dynamic typing and binding. Due to its flexibility and power, developers often employ certain rules, or Python design patterns. What makes them so important and what do does this mean for the average Pyt...

dark salmon Dec 25, 2019, 6:55 AM

#

@grave mirage which book is that?

eager trout Dec 25, 2019, 8:40 AM

#

I'm thinking of freelancing after learning python. Which jobs would be easy to get ?

dry sapphire Dec 25, 2019, 9:33 AM

#

@eager trout there are quite a few freelancing websites around

#

I also do some freelancing

#

mostly machine learning/data science-related

eager trout Dec 25, 2019, 9:36 AM

#

True, I dont have any idea what kind of jobs are in plenty to apply for. I'm learning strictly to make money however small at first.

dry sapphire Dec 25, 2019, 10:21 AM

#

I use codementor.io

grave mirage Dec 25, 2019, 5:19 PM

#

@dark salmon They said The Little Schemer or "Fluent Book"

#

@thick shale ty for the link

grave mirage Dec 25, 2019, 6:08 PM

#

Merry Christmas people.

vapid jay Dec 26, 2019, 2:38 AM

#

Any good book for intermediate python programming? I got beginner (automate the boring stuff with python) just the intermediate I’m looking for any suggestions please?

open patio Dec 26, 2019, 2:40 AM

#

this doesn't belong in #career-advice but if you haven't done OOP yet, watch corey's series on it and follow along: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-osiE80TeTsqhIuOqKhwlXsIBIdSeYtc

YouTube

Python OOP Tutorials - Working with Classes

Python Object-Oriented Tutorials. In this series, we will be learning how to create classes in Python, and also the best practices for working with these cla...

#

@vapid jay

vapid jay Dec 26, 2019, 2:42 AM

#

Okay

#

Thanks

livid mountain Dec 26, 2019, 3:49 AM

#

ok i'll take the job

open patio Dec 27, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

i don't think hiring is allowed around here

steep cairn Dec 27, 2019, 5:43 AM

#

Oh really? My bad

unreal linden Dec 27, 2019, 6:39 AM

#

@steep cairn f1re is correct, we don't allow that here. It's in the channel topic above, and mentioned in our rules (rule 6)

fast tinsel Dec 27, 2019, 3:53 PM

#

Repost from the off-topic section: A question to the folk that have looked for/are working as developers. Have you ever seen a remote job for a junior? If yes what did it look like? It is very curious because people have said that they exist, yet none is to be seen. 😄

vapid jay Dec 27, 2019, 4:11 PM

#

they surely exist but its on the sector some may require needs you to be at office some doesn't . @mild zenith have chance of doing both he prefer going on site

mild zenith Dec 27, 2019, 4:13 PM

#

I've done both but never for a development job. It was clerical/ administrative support. And I prefer being on-site primarily because of my ADHD and my distractions at home. I'm less likely to get distracted and play PS4 while I'm actually at the office

vapid jay Dec 27, 2019, 4:19 PM

#

you have ADHD not really suprise cuz its common now a days

indigo sleet Dec 27, 2019, 4:21 PM

#

well, not more common, more like, easier to diagnose

mild zenith Dec 27, 2019, 4:24 PM

#

Or more commonly diagnosed

#

Regardless, I don't know a lot of entry level jobs that let you remote in

#

But I don't directly work in the industry, so I'm not really one to ask

indigo sleet Dec 27, 2019, 4:26 PM

#

Remote-only companies are becoming more common, but not massively so yet

torpid bolt Dec 27, 2019, 4:28 PM

#

evaluating junior devs is hard, which makes their recruitement more risky, so recruiting remote seems especially risky, if things take a long time, it can seem harder to dignagnose if it's a technical issue, organisational, or even work ethics, so people are certainly less prone to do it, unless they are a very remote focused company, and are confident with dealing with that.

vapid jay Dec 28, 2019, 1:39 AM

#

If I get my CCNA Routing and Switching can I get a job quickly with no college degree?

radiant moon Dec 28, 2019, 1:48 AM

#

if you ask INE I'm sure they'll say "yes of course!"

shadow moss Dec 28, 2019, 2:24 PM

#

Tupac, no

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 7:34 PM

#

how can one break into tech as a self taught programmer

#

I've built some projects, but I don't think I stand out.

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 7:49 PM

#

you don't need to stand "out", if you are able to build projects, i'm sure there is work for you, it might depend on your place, but there is need for people who can, not everybody needs to be a compiler or algorithm expert, being able to ship features, with code that others can read, and that fits requirements, is tested… etc, is good enough to get work imho.

#

being able to show your work does help, if you have some on github, even if you think the code is not great, or the app is not impressive enough, if it's your code, and you are open to sharing it, will certainly give something to evaluate to a technicaly versed recruiter.

#

everybody learns, even people who went to school for computer science, there is always something you need for a particular task that you didn't see before, so displaying ability to learn is more important than diplomes imho.

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 7:52 PM

#

ahh

#

I mean I don't work in tech, but i program solutions for my job.

#

and my previous job as well

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 7:52 PM

#

that's not to say school is not useful, there are a lot of nice things to learn there, from theorical to practical, but nothing you can't catch up when needed.

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 7:52 PM

#

and my "side hustles"

#

I'm learning time series forecasts at the moment

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 7:53 PM

#

are you able to describe these achievements in terms that could fit on your CV and that a recruiter would get an idea of the complexity of the task you solved?

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 7:53 PM

#

yeah

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 7:54 PM

#

well that would certainly help 🙂

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 7:54 PM

#

lol

#

but the job title is not tech related

#

I guess it doesn't matter?

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 7:55 PM

#

i don't think it matters that much

#

not all companies are open minded, but the good ones are

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 7:56 PM

#

I'd love to work remote honestly

#

I have a strong work ethic, but my current company is not forward thinking.

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 7:58 PM

#

it's still sadly not very common

#

i negociated 1d/w remotely at my current company, and i've not been using them at all 😆

#

but it's easier to negociate a part time remote than a full time, to get started

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 7:59 PM

#

and then automate the remote job?

#

have two jobs?

#

one of them run by your robot butler?

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:01 PM

#

programming jobs are not easy to automate, sure you can create snippets and stuff to automate part of it, it's rarely repetitive enough you can delegate it entirely to a machine

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:01 PM

#

part time programming jobs?

#

I never honestly thought they existed

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:01 PM

#

you can create your own tools to help and be more productive than other programmers that don't do that, though

#

no, part time remote

#

you go there some days, and not others

#

though there are certainly part time programming jobs, that probably happens more for freelances that chose to do multiple projects at once

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:07 PM

#

hmm

#

freelancing seems daunting

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:15 PM

#

yeah, i don't do it, don't want to manage the paper things and look for clients, etc, but i know people doing good money from it

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:16 PM

#

I have a friend working remote in south america

#

just got married down there too

#

was a college buddy of mine

#

but he has deep systems knowledge: builds APIs and what not

#

seems so out of reach for me

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:17 PM

#

everything can be learned

#

and maybe he doesn't think he knows as much as you think he does

#

you'll see a lot of imposter syndrom in this industry, because we all see our struggle, and the success of others, you don't see the time spent and the little crimes commited to build nice apps, only the dev knows about them, you only see the result

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:20 PM

#

yeah

#

my coworker told me something similar

#

he's a data scientist

#

but my job doesn't know tech that well, so he does a lot

#

but I asked him about imposter syndrome; he said he lives it every day

radiant moon Dec 28, 2019, 8:21 PM

#

raises hand

#

impostor syndrome reporting for duty

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:21 PM

#

as someone who is relatively new, it was a bit shocking to see someone so skilled state that they felt that way

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:21 PM

#

the ones who don't have it are probably the real imposteurs 😄

#

(jk, if you don't have it and you are competent, good for you!)

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:21 PM

#

aww

#

nice guy tshirtman

radiant moon Dec 28, 2019, 8:22 PM

#

@supple fossil a very smart guy I work with, who I'll guess earns mid six-figures, told me he had it too

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:22 PM

#

😊 trying to

radiant moon Dec 28, 2019, 8:22 PM

#

this guy knows his stuff and gets s*** done.

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:24 PM

#

I mean the salary doesn't impress me, I've seen really incompetent people earn a lot of money

#

but I do get your point

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:24 PM

#

i've been programming for 20 years, ~10 as a professional, getting near the 6 figures at next job that's already signed for, and i very often question my skills, the amount of things i don't know is crazy.

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:25 PM

#

20 years

#

work remote

#

move to south america

#

your purchase power parity

#

will increase

#

you might even find a wife, like my buddy

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:26 PM

#

i'm actually moving to netherlands soon.

#

i've a wife already, she's not looking for competition 😛

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:26 PM

#

umm, have fun

#

ahaha

#

netherlands, is more expensive

#

but food is cheaper

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:26 PM

#

yeah, a tad more than paris

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:26 PM

#

you're in paris?

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:26 PM

#

yes

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:27 PM

#

paris is cheaper than the netherlands

#

surprising

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:27 PM

#

it depends for what actually

#

and where in the netherlands of course

#

i'm going to amsterdam

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:27 PM

#

I assumed you were in the US

#

of course

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:27 PM

#

rent is getting crazy in amsterdam

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:27 PM

#

you mean you don't want to live in a small village in the netherlands

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:28 PM

#

it's already crazy in paris, but it's getting worse faster over there

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:28 PM

#

I was in Berlin last year for vacation

#

they are trying to deal with gentrification there

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:28 PM

#

it looks like the other things are cheaper in amsterdam than in paris

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:28 PM

#

most people who own there, rent out the properties.

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:29 PM

#

everywhere is, anytime i a place is poor and cheap, artists move in, they make the place hip, then it becomes trendy and expensive, and the poor (artists or not) move out, and the place becomes expensive and established, but not lively in the same way.

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:30 PM

#

ever been to williamsburg?

#

in nyc?

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:30 PM

#

no

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:30 PM

#

ahh

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:30 PM

#

well, i've been to nyc, maybe i don't remember that place

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:30 PM

#

well, that's basically Berlin but less authentic

#

williamsburg was gentrified, and now the only people who live there are wealthy trust fund people

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:31 PM

#

checking the map 🙂

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:31 PM

#

who pose as artists and sympathetic/mindful individuals.

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:31 PM

#

yeah, that's a common story

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:31 PM

#

you know the type that comes off as condescending and judgemental in the name of progression.

#

that's williamsburg

#

Berlin is an authentic williamsburg

#

everyone is an artist, it's extremely diverse, and there's a strong sense of independence and free thinking

#

because of the regions history (Facism & Communism)

#

anyway my rant is over. I miss europe

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

ah no i don't think we went there, we went to manhattan, brooklyn, staten island, queens, but not there

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

williamsburg is a district in brooklyn

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:34 PM

#

well, then more to the south of that 😛

#

brooklyn bridge and a bit around there, not much more 😬

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:35 PM

#

you are not making your case any better sir xD

#

but i am just messing with you.

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:35 PM

#

anyway, that's getting quite out of topic 😄

#

whistle

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:35 PM

#

alright thanks. I will continue to work on my skills and projects. I've been at my job for 6 months, and I'd like to stay for 3 years and then switch

torpid bolt Dec 28, 2019, 8:38 PM

#

oh then you do have some time to build your cv and portofolio 🙂

supple fossil Dec 28, 2019, 8:41 PM

#

yeah, I was just asking questions in this channel because I want to make sure I am working towards the right goal/taking the right steps

#

also venting

vapid jay Dec 29, 2019, 4:20 AM

#

i wouldn't say only wealthy trust fund people live in williamsburg

#

i think it's pretty balanced

shut geyser Dec 29, 2019, 4:01 PM

#

@torpid bolt you working in Amsterdam atm? What do you think are good sites to search for a job there? I survey Linkedin a bit but i only find weird stuff (Junior with 3 years experience asked for example), some recruiting agency spamming the same offer with 3/4 different company name or full dutch job post which makes me not sure they accept foreigners/english speaking people

torpid bolt Dec 29, 2019, 4:07 PM

#

not yet, in 3 months or so

shut geyser Dec 29, 2019, 4:18 PM

#

ah too bad!

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 4:49 PM

#

You can buy beer in a movie theatre. And I don't mean in a paper cup either. They give you a glass of beer, like in a bar.

torpid bolt Dec 29, 2019, 5:32 PM

#

i think it's appropriate to post such things here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLH1nwPeSBY

YouTube

The Lead Developer

Levelling up as a Lead Developer | Pat Kua | #LeadDevBerlin

Full talk title - Levelling up: the way of the Lead Developer

Video sponsor: BuildKite (https://buildkite.com/)

The transition from a developer to a Lead Developer can be a rocky one.

Yesterday, you were working as a developer and today, suddenly, you find yourself in the ...

▶ Play video

little prairie Dec 29, 2019, 10:32 PM

#

Is Fiverr better for potential employers finding you than Upwork is. It seems like Upwork has like 100 freelancers to every 1 job.

#

Wouldn’t be so bad if you didn’t have to buy points to apply for jobs

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 10:32 PM

#

never heard of either of those 😐

#

I think my company gets its applicants because they apply directly

hushed kestrel Dec 29, 2019, 10:37 PM

#

The only people who hire workers from fiverr/upwork are people running web based businesses

#

Or they are trying to reduce labor cost

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 10:39 PM

#

well my company runs a web-based business, and is always trying to reduce costs

#

and yet.

vapid jay Dec 29, 2019, 10:45 PM

#

are there python certifications that can show employers my knowledge

little prairie Dec 29, 2019, 10:45 PM

#

Idk, I know I have the skill set to apply for on site programming jobs but I don’t because I didn’t learn traditionally through a CS or other related degree.

vapid jay Dec 29, 2019, 10:46 PM

#

i think there are some on coursera?

little prairie Dec 29, 2019, 10:46 PM

#

So I do mostly freelance work

hushed kestrel Dec 29, 2019, 10:46 PM

#

You should email companies and ask if they give a crap about certs

#

Before you try to get them

vapid jay Dec 29, 2019, 10:47 PM

#

why would they not

#

certifications are the perfect assessment of somebodys skill level at something

marsh wind Dec 29, 2019, 10:52 PM

#

@vapid jay ehm... No ?

#

They are not

hushed kestrel Dec 29, 2019, 10:53 PM

#

Certs are only as good as the trust that the cert means something

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 10:53 PM

#

not sure if serious

marsh wind Dec 29, 2019, 10:53 PM

#

Well maybe if it's well known live bootcamp or something

vapid jay Dec 29, 2019, 10:53 PM

#

bruh coursera

marsh wind Dec 29, 2019, 10:53 PM

#

But if it's Coursera, edX, Udemy...

vapid jay Dec 29, 2019, 10:53 PM

#

they dont even have certifications

hushed kestrel Dec 29, 2019, 10:54 PM

#

There are certs that matter

#

But just saying 'certs' doesn't really..

#

there are probably 10 - 1 useless to useful certs

#

if you go into info-sec, certs matter a lot more

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 10:55 PM

#

people will pay many tens of thousands of dollars to study for some Cisco networking certs

vapid jay Dec 29, 2019, 10:56 PM

#

ccna

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 10:57 PM

#

yep

marsh wind Dec 29, 2019, 11:03 PM

#

Well yeah That's something totally different. Mostly when ppl ask things like that they mean coursera

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 11:06 PM

#

huh, I have never done coursera but I'd have guessed it was roughly the same thing: take a test, show that you know some stuff, get a cert that says so

hushed kestrel Dec 29, 2019, 11:06 PM

#

Eh.

#

Probably better to have projects

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 11:07 PM

#

for sure

#

I don't recall ever seeing a cert on someone's resume when I interview, but tbh I pay very little attention to the resume anyway

marsh wind Dec 29, 2019, 11:24 PM

#

Well maybe recruiters/HRs look

radiant moon Dec 29, 2019, 11:26 PM

#

they might. I always assume that HR has done a sort of first-level screening

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:13 AM

#

Does a CS degree realistically increase your chances of getting a job?

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:16 AM

#

Yes

#

Very yes.

#

Like, wot

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:16 AM

#

not so sure

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:16 AM

#

It's probably more important that you are programming for 4 years

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:16 AM

#

I don't have any kind of degree, am not very bright, and yet have a decent programming job

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:17 AM

#

You 'can' get an equivelent degree and learn all your cs shit online

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:17 AM

#

'course that's just one data point, but I don't think I'm that unusual

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:17 AM

#

But that is like, double working

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:17 AM

#

I occasionally do interviews; I don't care at all about educational background

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:18 AM

#

....

#

That seems silly

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:19 AM

#

and yet they keep paying me

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:19 AM

#

I mean, I just bet you are not being honest when you say that

#

Or that you mean something very very specific

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:19 AM

#

Why?

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:19 AM

#

certainly I'm being honest

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:19 AM

#

And that statement is generally out of context

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:19 AM

#

It's not like the market is flooded with programmers

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:20 AM

#

if I get a resume that shows the person never even went to college, but their code is clean, they can put together two clear English sentences, and they're not a jerk, I'll be inclined to hire them

#

why should I care what they did or didn't do in school? What they can do at the job is what matters.

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:21 AM

#

I mean, you will test their education to make sure that they aren't scamming you with good code

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:21 AM

#

now, granted, I'm not interviewing for principal-level positions. CS smarts there might well be more useful; I dunno.

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:21 AM

#

Also degree != education

#

wa wa

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:22 AM

#

@hushed kestrel well doing some whiteboard coding ought to flush out that sort of dishonesty

#

who knows? Maybe I've had some scammers. But I don't think so.

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:23 AM

#

You want to make sure that programmers understand programming concepts, you just don't care where they get the concepts from

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:23 AM

#

also I don't know about other companies, but I doubt mine is terribly unusual

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:23 AM

#

I feel by saying education isn't important, that you are saying that getting a software engineering job is just about learning a language and applying or something

#

Maybe I am just very wrong

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:24 AM

#

Where do you live? Outside of first world countries, most places don't have CS careers

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:24 AM

#

But I feel like i've done that and I am not getting tremendous success

#

[bay area]

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:24 AM

#

oh I didn't say programming skill was sufficient; just that (for my company anyway) education isn't necessary

#

also I'm personally deeply cynical about education, so that colors everything 🙂

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:25 AM

#

UHH. It just depends

#

I mean, a degree w/o work >>> no degree w/o work

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:25 AM

#

What job would requiere you to have a CS degree?

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:26 AM

#

'requires' is a strong word

#

Mostly your goal is to convince someone to hire you.

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:26 AM

#

I haven't read this, but heard the author interviewed, and I suspect I'd agree with it: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0691196451

thick shale Dec 30, 2019, 2:26 AM

#

Most job descriptions I've seen usually say "Computer science degree or its equivalence"... meaning CS isn't really a must.

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:27 AM

#

Hmm,

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:27 AM

#

yep

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:27 AM

#

The only time that it is required is when bureaucracy takes the choice away from the hiring manager like at big companies, government jobs (us) or security based jobs

#

Education system is a waste of time and money if you are rich or something

#

If you are poor it's great. You should get educated

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:27 AM

#

There are exceptions even then

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:28 AM

#

There are, the nsa and other cyber security parts of the government will hire programming convicts, ect]

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:28 AM

#

Yeah

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:28 AM

#

With a college education, you'll make something like 10-20k more a year for the rest of your working life or something

#

Without that much effort.

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:29 AM

#

I doubt there'll ever be such a thing as too many programmers

thick shale Dec 30, 2019, 2:31 AM

#

I am very curious about the future when companies and the education systems in many countries have been hyping STEM. Both public and private institutes have been trying hard to include more programming education such as code bootcamps. No doubt it is for the purpose of increasing the supplies of future programmers. But it would be curious if that would be enough or effective.

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:32 AM

#

Stem isn't just programmers

#

There is just an obvious connection to stem and $$$$, so more means more

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:34 AM

#

I mean, it's kind of funny because an increase in programmers benefits everybody but programmers

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:35 AM

#

Cheaper goods and services

uncut bobcat Dec 30, 2019, 2:35 AM

#

Less pay

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:35 AM

#

Less pay?

#

I don't know if that's true.

#

Entry level pay maybe.

#

Programmers pay is sorta evaluated at 30-60% of the wealth that person generates at a company. There is a natural force that if companies pay something like, 10% of their 100% profitability, another company will come along and say "We'll pay you 20%" and they'll get the best talent

#

The high pay of programmers is their effectiveness at taking over market share /creating new markets / expanding a business. (Which is practically the same as market share)

#

with 1-3 programmers you can take a shirt business and make it international across multiple distribution systems with warehousing and automatic shipping and lots of other shit like inventory tracking

#

This isn't even talking about shirt analytics to competitors websites/social media searches to see which shirts are famous at what times to gain market advantage. The pareto distribution says 20% of the shirts get 80% of the money, so small percentage advantages yield major results)

thick shale Dec 30, 2019, 2:41 AM

#

Certainly that is true. But my curiosity is about the increase in supplies of programmers who can do that in the future. That should be the natural result of increasing educational focus in the fields of STEM, no? This discord alone tripled its memberships within a year, right?

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:42 AM

#

This discord isn't a good general representation IMHO

#

Stem is attracting more and more because of the $ incentive structure. There will be more programmers (Unless there is some outside force that prohibits it, like going to a total war with china or something)

#

But to say programmers pay goes down is to make a statement about market equilibrium with a continuing supply or something.

#

But it seems like the utility of programming is going up and not down. Self driving cars will be an entirely new industry in the next 30 + years and maybe for the rest of our lives.

#

Imagine how useful programming will be when / if we ever get inexpensive batteries

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:45 AM

#

only programmers can prevent software from eating the world!!

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:46 AM

#

There are only maybe 5-10 vr peripheral companies in the bay area, that number could go upto 30-50 with more programmers

#

There are just many many important topics that are worth lots of $$$ that aren't just being tackled at the moment

#

New programmers aren't old enough to have power

#

So we are going to see some vastly changing things in the next 50 years.

#

Only in the past 10 years have we perfected gerrymandering

radiant moon Dec 30, 2019, 2:49 AM

#

we gerrymander? Why didn't anyone tell me

hushed kestrel Dec 30, 2019, 2:51 AM

#

If you are in the US, you support candidates that support gerrymandering, so, ya, 'we'.

hazy sigil Dec 30, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

Hey guys, can anyone tell me how much DS and ALgo. Should I need to cover before ML ?
Currently I'm on Deque implementation using DoublylinkedList .. so I just want to know how much time should I need to give on every topic of DS for Machine learning

#

Also I am going to do Linear Algebra from the 1st Jan of 2020

vapid jay Dec 30, 2019, 6:36 AM

#

@hushed kestrel When you say there are many important topics not being tackled, can you elaborate?

zealous ibex Dec 30, 2019, 7:05 PM

#

You guys, so every one is talking about github being the new resume right, I'm beginning to build it up with projects but I don't have a idea of how it should look like, could somebody post his and maybe give me a sense of the mockup of it? Like how to display projects and repositories etc

little prairie Dec 31, 2019, 12:44 AM

#

You can take a look at mine which isn't the best but I try to give details about the application. https://github.com/PythonKoder

GitHub

PythonKoder - Overview

Full Stack Web Developer. PythonKoder has 5 repositories available. Follow their code on GitHub.

frosty cloak Dec 31, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

Hello people

#

I am jehu and i wish to learn to program in python but the think is i need to be certificaded

#

My question is

#

Is microverse site a good way to get a certification a could also get my desired job

#

Well the real question is that is microverse a good learning platafform? If not could you guys help where to start

#

I am sorry i know you guys get a lot of questoons like this all the time

zealous ibex Dec 31, 2019, 2:18 AM

#

@little prairie yh looks dope, my lazy ass needs to do more projects tbh even small ones and step up to like a chess game or something

halcyon plank Dec 31, 2019, 3:39 AM

#

Hey! Could any please explain me the difference between software developer and web developer

#

And which is in more demand?

radiant moon Dec 31, 2019, 4:21 AM

#

web developer is a subcategory of software developer

#

no idea which is in more demand

versed karma Dec 31, 2019, 4:22 AM

#

does web development really count as 'software development' ?

#

even if you make webapps, does that fit in the technical definition of software?

#

I wanna say no, but I guess those lines have blurred so much

halcyon plank Dec 31, 2019, 4:23 AM

#

Yah it really confuses me

radiant moon Dec 31, 2019, 4:28 AM

#

does it matter all that much? If you're describing yourself, choose whichever name you like, or maybe your title. If you're applying to jobs, read the job descriptions, not just the titles

sterile vault Dec 31, 2019, 4:42 AM

#

Hello! How's current job market in bioinformatics and what should you focus on (from CS side) to get an entry level job?

#

AFAIK, knowledge if Python and Unix is a must, R and bash are a big plus. Probably I'll need to get familiar with Numpy. Basic knowledge of algorithms is needed, but i do not know what is "good enough" level.

little prairie Dec 31, 2019, 7:15 AM

#

I'd say web development certainly counts as software development. Backends can be extremely complex depending on the type of application. I think there's often confusion with Web Design and Web Development.

dark salmon Dec 31, 2019, 7:44 AM

#

is java necessary for becoming a software developer? can I get by with just python and C++

#

I am not averse to learning new languages, in fact I would love to spend time with Java and many languages

#

its just that I have a time crunch.

#

So I would like to do that on my free time

little prairie Dec 31, 2019, 7:48 AM

#

With Python and C++ there isn't really anything you couldn't create.

dry sapphire Dec 31, 2019, 7:59 AM

#

a SPA?

vapid jay Dec 31, 2019, 8:04 AM

#

haha bet I could make a SPA with python and c++

hazy sigil Dec 31, 2019, 8:04 AM

#

Hey guys, can anyone tell me how much DS and ALgo. Should I need to cover before ML ?
Currently I'm on Deque implementation using DoublylinkedList .. so I just want to know how much time should I need to give on every topic of DS for Machine learning

#

Anyone can tell me please?

dry sapphire Dec 31, 2019, 8:06 AM

#

it depends on what you want to do with ML...

#

algorithms can be a bit too low-level to be directly relevant

hazy sigil Dec 31, 2019, 8:07 AM

#

Image/pattern recognition comes under computer vision right?

dry sapphire Dec 31, 2019, 8:08 AM

#

generally, yes

hazy sigil Dec 31, 2019, 8:08 AM

#

algorithms can be a bit too low-level to be directly relevant
I am focusing on Trees and Graphs

#

Okay so ML is not a specific subject like Data structure

#

It have different sub-subjects also, right?

thick shale Dec 31, 2019, 8:09 AM

#

What does SPA stands for?

dry sapphire Dec 31, 2019, 8:09 AM

#

single page application

#

well, most topics can be further subdivided...?

#

for example, you can divide data structures into persistent and ephemeral, and you use fairly different techniques for each

sterile vault Dec 31, 2019, 8:22 AM

#

@dark salmon Is German necessary to become a translator? I usually see Java on corporate backend job postings. A lot of companies use c# instead of Java. A lot of companies prefer languages like Python. Web frontend is JS and gamedev is c++/c#. Data science is Python and R. All can be considered software development.

hushed kestrel Dec 31, 2019, 1:05 PM

#

@vapid jay The central question was "Is there work that will exist that will hold programmers in such high demand as they are today." I responded with the affirmative saying that there are subjects that we haven't addressed even in the slightest that tech will be imminently useful. Tech hasn't done well upheaving heavily regulated industries in the way that we provide services to people. You can't book a doctor appointment by an hour slot. You don't have a distributed network of pharmacies that you can rout / deliver your medication. Your medical information isn't instantly shared through server connections to whatever provider you are trying to obtain your health from.

Financial system regulation evolves by having a boom/bust and in the bust they try to fix the problems that made the bust inevitable. This is a adhock solution that grows like an ugly bush. If you try to streamline the process / regulatory checks or try to lets say, provide a new type of banking model to the financial system, you are going to be a bit stuck.

once remote positions in tech solves some basic problems (Maybe vr will solve it? Who knows), we could see a big rise in decentralized working that will encourage people to live in less financially fucked places like the bay area and move out in the places that have lots of land for cheap. How will these high paid people impact otherwise low paid economies ? They will be able to setup shop in those communities as they become more senior and we'll see how that turns out.

Shipping will be cheaper and cheaper. We have robots that already deliver food. We are at the crux of drone delivery systems. When that becomes cheaper than post office workers, then markets open up. Amazon is the only (as far as I know) sub 2 hour delivery system within a select group of cities. Now you can order almost anything bellow 15lbs within 15-30 minutes. As battery capacity reduces (Another huge market) this becomes more and more promising.

#

There are still many untapped ways that tech can make lots of $$$ in the coming 50 years. We don't do it now as we are still discovering techniques to implement these systems at a small price. Right now you need to be a level 5 phd or something to lead a team to have self driving cars. When finally a general platform for automated guidance comes out so someone with a BS in whatever can run a business, import that platform and make a new product, we'll see a huge transformation in how the world runs. (Automated mining operations anyone ? Setup auto miners that can dig under the ocean ? The only limits are things like power/global warming/ nuclear holocaust

marsh wind Dec 31, 2019, 2:07 PM

#

You can't book a doctor appointment by an hour slot
not exactly true, such systems exist
But overall you makre pretty good point 🙂

vapid jay Dec 31, 2019, 2:48 PM

#

At one point in time, writing was considered a skill for the few/elite.
Now writing is essentially mandatory for every job.
The same will be true of programming, it will become such a necessity that people that can't code will be out of a job by default.

Unless your a hooker, then your fine. ^_^

vapid jay Dec 31, 2019, 3:25 PM

#

@versed karma it has to for web developers, if you tell someone youre a web developer then people are gonna think you like designing UI and stuff, software developer title helps cover the fact you only work on web apps

torpid bolt Dec 31, 2019, 4:23 PM

#

i'm not sure programming will become such an universally necessary skill, but it'll be a useful skill for sure

clear sleet Dec 31, 2019, 4:36 PM

#

What kind of jobs can you get in the security field using python! And which libraries would be using for the security field?

little prairie Dec 31, 2019, 5:26 PM

#

Yayy! Landed my first job on Upwork only 4 proposals in!

vapid jay Dec 31, 2019, 5:57 PM

#

glhf

#

Ive heard upwork is like that though, you get first one real quick then its hard as hell

shadow moss Dec 31, 2019, 6:03 PM

#

security field is huge

#

and very little of it requires hacking into computers

#

most of it is writing reports, running down other admins and updating policies for everyone to ignore

#

I equate NetSec to being a cop, it looks cool but for many, your day to day life is writing reports, dealing with banality and wanting to strangle everyone you have to deal with

little prairie Dec 31, 2019, 6:11 PM

#

I'd imagine as time goes on and people gain a reputation they tend to go for higher paying more competitive jobs. Which I will as well but quick few hundred buck jobs add up fairly quick so I'll stick with them also.

vapid jay Dec 31, 2019, 8:01 PM

#

red teams can be really fun from what ive heard

shadow moss Dec 31, 2019, 8:31 PM

#

brian, they are, in same way driving really fast as cop is fun but it's about 5% of what they do

mild zenith Dec 31, 2019, 8:32 PM

#

On top of that, if you only focus on one side, then you're not going to get much better

#

Being on both sides makes you understand where your vulnerabilities and your strengths are

shadow moss Dec 31, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

you talking red/blue?

mild zenith Dec 31, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

Honestly so much of computer security is psychology. Making sure that your users aren't messing stuff up

#

Yeah I was

shadow moss Dec 31, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

red team esp full time is done by so few people, most people are blue and alot of that is boring stuff I described

mild zenith Dec 31, 2019, 8:34 PM

#

But you can make an absolutely impenetrable wall of security and have it crumble to dust because one of your users clicked on an email they shouldn't, or their password is abc123

shadow moss Dec 31, 2019, 8:34 PM

#

particularly when you get your start

mild zenith Dec 31, 2019, 8:34 PM

#

Right

vapid jay Dec 31, 2019, 9:32 PM

#

that was a fascinating discussion thank you'

#

@shadow moss def agree red team is a small % of people

little prairie Dec 31, 2019, 10:40 PM

#

Question, if someone gives you a project with an outline/ mock up of how they want a design done, but also offers some creative freedom. What is a good benchmark to not cross?

shadow moss Dec 31, 2019, 10:40 PM

#

it doesn't work

torpid bolt Dec 31, 2019, 11:14 PM

#

no more than 3 fonts (better less than that), try not to have more than 4 font sizes or so, standardize a number of colors as well, and try to have consistent paddings and stuff, (the empty space is also part of the design)

#

https://designforhackers.com/ is nice to get the basics of these things

Design for Hackers

David Kadavy

Free design course

Do you struggle to choose the perfect font? Does it seem each new color you pick just makes your design look worse? Take our free course and learn the few keys that make a huge difference in making beautiful design.

#

other things not to cross of course, is being obviously offensive to anybody (whatever you do, it'll always make some people unhappy, but try not to give them obvious reason to be so).

little prairie Dec 31, 2019, 11:19 PM

#

No definitely nothing remotely away from the overall concept, I mean like in situations of color choices, and styling lol. Will keep everything mostly the same, but the color pallet that's been given isn't very modern or sleek looking.

normal stone Dec 31, 2019, 11:59 PM

#

hello, I am new to discord, this channel is for career advice ?

radiant moon Jan 1, 2020, 12:05 AM

#

yep

tidal tapir Jan 1, 2020, 12:46 AM

#

I wish you luck all new programmers : }

vapid jay Jan 1, 2020, 1:18 AM

#

@hushed kestrel Excellent answer, I really enjoyed reading your insights. It excites me to be in this field. I'm doing the whole Django-React fullstack route right now, but these issues seem far more exciting to tackle. Clearly anyone at the top of the distribution pyramid for these platforms will be the new Bill Gates's of the world. Have a good 2020.

hushed kestrel Jan 1, 2020, 1:55 AM

#

I am glad you enjoyed it. The problem against the litany of solvable issues that I posted before isn't that we don't have the technology to solve them. We do, many times over. We aren't looking for a solution here. We can't apply known good solutions because of regulatory / power structure things that are much harder to disrupt. This is why mottos in tech are like "upheave industries" or something. When tech goes into a space and does a job well/better than other people, other people are forced through capitalism to adopt tech. Making tech work with existing industries will always be championed by people who already exist within those industries (I believe)

#

@vapid jay

vapid jay Jan 1, 2020, 6:25 AM

#

That makes sense to me. When bureaucracy and red tape inhibits growth, it certainly seems like an uphill battle to get regulators/legislators to look outside of the box and see the merit in doing something a radically different way.

torpid bolt Jan 1, 2020, 11:27 AM

#

counterpoint: sometime, what look like innefficiencies, has actual benefits, learned over a long experience, and newcommers to a field, "disrupting" it, will cause catastrophic damages.

hushed kestrel Jan 1, 2020, 11:40 AM

#

That's a very weird objection to make. No one would argue that people should do a bad job implementing tech or be naïve on the system you are disrupting.

#

You see things like taxi's offering awful services and you have systems like NY's medallion policy that protects them from regular market forces

torpid bolt Jan 1, 2020, 11:44 AM

#

well, a lot of victims of badly vetted uber (or other services) drivers, would tend to disagree the price cut was worth it.

hushed kestrel Jan 1, 2020, 11:45 AM

#

There is no price cut atm, it's just being funded through VC stuff

torpid bolt Jan 1, 2020, 11:45 AM

#

maybe there are even better solution, but uber is operating at a big deficit to take the market, and is causing all kind of problems, aside security of passengers, i'm not sure that's sound economical development

hushed kestrel Jan 1, 2020, 11:45 AM

#

The victims of surgery would also argue that surgery is bad, but that doesn't seem good enough to say no one should ever undergo surgery

torpid bolt Jan 1, 2020, 11:46 AM

#

the alternative to surgery in a lot of cases is death, not a lot of downsides, the analogy seems very inappropriate to me

#

(i think we are quite OT but we can continue in any OT channel of your choice)

shadow moss Jan 1, 2020, 4:24 PM

#

Yea, that disrupt everything to hell with regulations sounds alot like Tech bro mentality that's resulted in some real destruction over past 10 years. Not all we do is good

dark salmon Jan 2, 2020, 12:00 AM

#

kivy doesn't have any beginner/ good first issue tags maybe that would be good to add

#

id love to contribute

torpid bolt Jan 2, 2020, 12:17 AM

#

i think we have an "easy" tag, but i'm warry of using it, i've seen it backfire

dark salmon Jan 2, 2020, 1:32 AM

#

oh yea just saw it

#

i feel like cs jobs are the hardest to break into

#

many of my friends are AeroE/ MechE majors and their interviews are largely behavioural with some technical but mostly verbal

#

i'm a mechE - ish major too but trying to break into CS

radiant moon Jan 2, 2020, 1:52 AM

#

I don't know what "behavioural" means here, tbh

dark salmon Jan 2, 2020, 1:56 AM

#

HR

marsh wind Jan 2, 2020, 3:38 AM

#

HRs asking stupid questions I guess

hushed kestrel Jan 2, 2020, 5:58 AM

#

Behavior is temperament based to see if their heads are up their own ass, ect.

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:04 AM

#

Hey guys, I was thinking about majoring in CS.

#

So for a bachelors degree it's just general CS

#

If I were to keep on pursuing a master's or phd, do I have to major in a specific subfield?

#

Or is it just CS

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:05 AM

#

not really a Career question

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:05 AM

#

I know, didn't where else to ask

#

this chat was the closest

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:05 AM

#

i guess it is

#

i have no idea cause i stopped after bachelors

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:06 AM

#

ok

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:06 AM

#

I think it might also depend on country and university

#

its your thesis that will be specific

hardy ferry Jan 2, 2020, 9:08 AM

#

You can do a master in CS. You can pick courses you especially like and thus specialize. For a PhD you have to specialize.
You can also do a master in cyber security etc after getting a bachelor in computer science.

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:08 AM

#

what do you do for a thesis'
?

#

Ok, so master is still CS and for phd is more specialized.

hardy ferry Jan 2, 2020, 9:09 AM

#

To finish a bachelor and a master you have to write a thesis each time. You can go to a professor and ask him for a topic or you can propose to your professor a topic (whether he accepts is a different story). If you go the latter route you do it via a company.

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:09 AM

#

I still unsure whether should pursue a CS degree, whether its bachelors or master

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:09 AM

#

@hardy ferry for the US you dont need a thesis for bachelor just fyi

#

for masters + you do

hardy ferry Jan 2, 2020, 9:10 AM

#

Oh wow

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:10 AM

#

oh

#

can the subject of the thesis be anything?

#

As long as you link it to CS

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:10 AM

#

yes it can but choose carefully

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:10 AM

#

can it be pizza?

#

lol

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:11 AM

#

-_-

#

owoBan

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:11 AM

#

take that as a no

hardy ferry Jan 2, 2020, 9:12 AM

#

If your master thesis is about how the pizza chain has a major security flaw which enables you to get unlimited pizza you can write a thesis about it.

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:12 AM

#

oh wow haha

#

I'll do that

hardy ferry Jan 2, 2020, 9:12 AM

#

You still have to sell the idea of it to the professor and the professor has to accept it.

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:12 AM

#

ok

#

but to be fair, can't I just self learn everything and get a job?

#

Or can I not?

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

you can

#

just its more work to get a job

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

but can you learn the phd stuff by yourself?

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

but its def possible

thick shale Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

I'm self taught and work as a programmer now.

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

you can the problem is proving that you know

hardy ferry Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

You don't have to get a bachelor or master degree to work in software development but it helps if you have no reference/resume/portfolio whatever

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

@thick shale ya me too

#

i was working during my BS

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

wow envy you guys

thick shale Jan 2, 2020, 9:13 AM

#

It's not easy but doable.

#

and a lot of luck.

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:14 AM

#

I just started last year

#

still a newbie

mint citrus Jan 2, 2020, 9:14 AM

#

and connections as well

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:14 AM

#

there's so much to learn, like bash scripting ...

hardy ferry Jan 2, 2020, 9:14 AM

#

PhD is research. You can't do it by yourself.

thick shale Jan 2, 2020, 9:14 AM

#

It will help if you know what you want to build in the future.

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:14 AM

#

So you need a colleague?

thick shale Jan 2, 2020, 9:15 AM

#

Web-related? Videogames? Applications? There's a lot of options.

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 9:15 AM

#

@thick shale I'm still mastering basic concepts.

#

I'm going through the python crash course book

#

just started on the first game project

#

using pygame

marsh wind Jan 2, 2020, 11:07 AM

#

but can you learn the phd stuff by yourself
this is not a correct question tbh

cursive tundra Jan 2, 2020, 11:23 AM

#

what u mean=

marsh wind Jan 2, 2020, 11:36 AM

#

@cursive tundra I mean that it is really unclear what is "phd stuff". PhD is doing an actual research. It involves taking certain, usually rather narrow subject/direction and going in really deep and beyond the state-of-the-art. The goal is usually to tackle some difficult problem that is both challenging and important for the research community. All this means that each PhD is different, so there is no such thing as "learn phd stuff" - the hard skils you learn depend entirely on the project.
Now there some (soft) skills that are commonly mastered by any PhD, including but not limited to: project/time management, presentations, public speaking, scientfic writing, communication, ability to work most inconvenient hours, scientific approach etc

#

one of the most important things to understand here also is that PhD is not just education level, it is much more than that. And it is not studying it is an actual work basicall

torpid bolt Jan 2, 2020, 2:50 PM

#

i think it's (a lot) easier to get a job as a programmer than doing a phd in CS

#

and thankfully you don't have to learn everything to get a job or to get a phd (you have to learn everything about a very specific subject to do a phd, that's kind of the point), there is too much to learn, try to learn a bit about a lot of things, and a lot more about a few things, and work there will be i'm sure.

#

you'll learn more on the job anyway, whatever you learned before, learning is part of the job

cursive tundra Jan 3, 2020, 12:12 AM

#

ok tnks

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 12:46 PM

#

Is web scraping worth it to learn? Is there a market for it?

leaden talon Jan 3, 2020, 12:47 PM

#

Yes

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 12:49 PM

#

Maybe

#

Yes

#

rule_two *= 10

#

If you hoard data you can sell it as a data broker

#

But you need to figure out the market / create a market for the data collected

#

One problem is that trivial/easy stuff has already been done, so you have to do some work to do something that people will want to buy

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 12:53 PM

#

Lots of businesses do web scraping in various forms.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 12:54 PM

#

You can make some serious money if you identify a business that does a lot of manual competitor checks and you solve that problem with an automated python script

#

If someone spends 30M a day doing website searching or whatever, they are spending 12-13 hours a month, 140+ hours a year doing research. You can easily charge 100 * their average hourly wage (30?) = 3k to solve their problem in under 10 hours

#

And they'll be happy to pay.

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 12:57 PM

#

Basing your business around scraping can be kind of risky, though.

#

You could probably get into legal disputes pretty easily.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 12:58 PM

#

UHH

#

I don't know, I mean, anyone can sue anyone or something.

#

70$ and a story

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 12:58 PM

#

I mean, a lot of sites have terms that prohibit automation.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 12:58 PM

#

Also you can do stuff to make it hard for them to track you

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 12:59 PM

#

So depending on the nature of your service, you might be vulnerable if the target decides to pursue you legally.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 12:59 PM

#

If you don't sign their terms, then you don't need to be beholden to them (Not legal advice, but pretty true)

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 12:59 PM

#

Well, sure, but they can also just ip ban you.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 12:59 PM

#

Then proxy your ip

#

They can always defend their property by obfuscating tags or use a dynamic website. They don't need to make it easy for you.

#

But that doesn't mean that you can't scrape their site

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:00 PM

#

It might be more trouble than it's worth.

#

Again, depending on the nature of the service.

#

I'm just saying, this is a worthwhile consideration for this type of business idea.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:01 PM

#

??

#

I mean, any business will have sticking points

#

10 hours of work getting 3k+ seems very worth IMHO

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:01 PM

#

My employer uses scraping for a certain purpose, and the threat of being shut down is a fairly serious concern for us.

#

Not impossible to overcome or work around.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:02 PM

#

It is case by case

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:02 PM

#

But a serious concern nonetheless.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:02 PM

#

To some extent

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:02 PM

#

And some cases are more vulnerable than others.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:02 PM

#

That is sortof what is meant by 'case by case'

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:02 PM

#

It might be more work, and more risk, than just an extra 10 hours.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:03 PM

#

But typically if you haven't made any more doing scraping or gave away all their info to someone else, they usually sue you (not for monitary damages, maybe their court costs) to return/delete their data or something

#

UHH, I would be surprised if it took more than 10 hours to scrape relevant customer data for someone spending 30 minutes taking data from websites into excel

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:04 PM

#

I mean, more than 10 hours to work around a target that's actively trying to prevent your access.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:05 PM

#

Most websites aren't actively trying to prevent your access

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:05 PM

#

Some might.

#

Ours definitely could.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:05 PM

#

'could'

#

but you haven't. And you are super tech focused

#

Most people use word press, most businesses don't have a dedicated website developer, and those that do don't hire website security past setting up their website

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 1:06 PM

#

Does mod security help prevent scraping?

#

We're not supposed to use anything other than apache for external facing apps because apache is the only web server that comes with mod security

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:07 PM

#

It doesn't seem like mod security stops scraping

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 1:07 PM

#

or in an easy to enable fashion

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:07 PM

#

https://www.modsecurity.org/commercial-rules.html

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:07 PM

#

@hushed kestrel I'm not sure if we're even disagreeing on anything. My point was just that this is worth thinking about if you're trying to design a business model centered on scraping in some form.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:07 PM

#

Uh, i'm not arguing with the central principle as much as I am pushing back against the sentiment that these things are harder than they actually are.

#

Or that you need to be overly cautious or whatever.

#

Once you are actually about to make money/are starting to make money, lawyer the fuck up

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:08 PM

#

I feel like you're misconstruing my "sentiment".

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 1:09 PM

#

Lawyering up as a way to secure your income is a good way to piss away your revenue in legal fees

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:09 PM

#

....

#

spending 400 $ to properly setup your business legal docs so that you have some liability shield != pissing away money

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:09 PM

#

There's nothing for you to push back against, because I'm not making a strong statement regarding how cautious you should be.

#

I was simply highlighting that for a business centered on scraping, you are, in some respect, dependent on a third party. I don't see what the value in defining exactly how concerned you should be about it is.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:13 PM

#

"It might be more work, and more risk, than just an extra 10 hours. "

"But a serious concern nonetheless."

"My employer uses scraping for a certain purpose, and the threat of being shut down is a fairly serious concern for us."

"Basing your business around scraping can be kind of risky"

Seems defining how concerned we should be about this

#

I am not exactly super interested in the topic, but I am looking to encourage people into into easy / profitable thing if they are seriously interested

#

of course speaking generally about the business is perfectly fine.

#

But making sure people take a measured response is also judicious

#

IMHO

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:15 PM

#

Those statements are all true. Some of those statements were taken out of a context, so it doesn't mean they are always true in every case.

#

They don't imply I'm drawing a line in the sand regarding exactly how much of a risk it is for every business case.

#

I'm also not looking to discourage people from investigating possible business ideas.

#

Meanwhile, I think it's just generally prudent to give thought to possible risks while doing so.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 1:19 PM

#

Those statements are true, to some certain extend /with some context.

This server trends to be pretty overly harsh/cautious about scraping and I am pushing back against this. Making more positive statements about what scraping can do vs saying "Look, if you are going to go into this, you can be fucked in 10 different ways and here they are. " Is also prudent, even if the the 10 different ways happen to be true.

#

UHH I think I just went meta

#

We can continue there instead of this channel if we want to keep talking? or general chat

vast shoal Jan 3, 2020, 1:21 PM

#

Yeah, let's go to #community-meta.

shut geyser Jan 3, 2020, 4:31 PM

#

i see an add for a job position where

#

they offer you 1 month bootcamps and you have a weird 4 day at client 1 day at mother company

#

and they teach you machine learning basically

#

what is the catch with this kind of ads

#

(they adress people with ai/business/econometric background)

torpid bolt Jan 3, 2020, 4:37 PM

#

seems a bit too good to be true, AI is not something you can learn in a month and work at a client without a lot of background, or you are just going to sell false expertise, which to be fair is not uncommon in the field of AI.

shut geyser Jan 3, 2020, 4:47 PM

#

do linear regression

#

I HAVE A VERY SOPHISTICATED MACHINE LEARNING MODEL

#

i think they propose this to people having minimum experience with Data Science according to their requirement but still

#

depends on the pay tbh

#

if you can pay someone low and make it consult for high

waxen hare Jan 3, 2020, 4:55 PM

#

Any other Amazonians here?

torpid bolt Jan 3, 2020, 4:56 PM

#

as in the forest or the company?

waxen hare Jan 3, 2020, 4:58 PM

#

Company.

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 5:54 PM

#

You probably have to do some really stupid contract that for the price of a bootcamp you are going to work for someone for 6 months or something

#

There is a huge amount of exploitation in bootcamp/tech

pure musk Jan 3, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

here's a question for ya
how would I go about sharing my projects and scripts with people? maybe that's obvious but I can't seem to get anyone to visit my github page. is it related to the number of projects you make or do I need to somehow get myself known first?

waxen hare Jan 3, 2020, 6:25 PM

#

It's all in marketing your product. Quality over quantity.

torpid bolt Jan 3, 2020, 7:03 PM

#

Yeah, build it and talk about it, in here in ”show your projects”, in a ”show HN” post on hacker news, on social media and stuff

#

But mainly build it

#

Put a nice readme in in, with intent, examples, so people really get what it is

#

And make it as easy as possible to setup

hushed kestrel Jan 3, 2020, 7:31 PM

#

What you could do is go to various discord servers, go to reddit, facebook, whatever and ask "I can't get his project to work, can someone help?"

#

People will download it and say "Oh! It worked for me!"

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 7:32 PM

#

Applying for a python related position and recruiter sent me this about me asking if interview is technical:

Definitely be prepared for a technical coding challenge. Usually for this level we don’t get to nitty gritty, but basic fundamentals should be understood.

Does anyone agree this is probably more python fundamentals than ds&a questions?

#

It's a devops role so python would be more sysadmin oriented

torpid bolt Jan 3, 2020, 7:37 PM

#

Seems like a fair assumption

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 7:40 PM

#

If it's algorithms I'm screwed but I don't think it'll be. Tired of interviews w algorithms, they make me like my current job more though 🤠

shadow moss Jan 3, 2020, 8:09 PM

#

Our python test for SRE is write a function that connects to this Calc API we made and return result as int

#

Bonus read an API token out of a file and pass it along

#

Second bonus, the operators are at different endpoint

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 8:49 PM

#

@shadow moss so just import a requests lib and get the url and parse the result?

shadow moss Jan 3, 2020, 8:49 PM

#

Yep

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 8:49 PM

#

Is that for entry level?

#

Or do yiu not specify the level

shadow moss Jan 3, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

we don't have levels as SRE

#

but we are heavy OPS in devops

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

Gotcha

#

I'm hoping my python experience gets me this job. If they ask me pythonic questions I should be fine. If they ask me to traverse a tree I'm hosed

shadow moss Jan 3, 2020, 8:52 PM

#

and we test at job interview so we want something easily done

#

you can tell alot by the way they work

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 8:52 PM

#

True, mine is a video call since the company is up in PA

shadow moss Jan 3, 2020, 8:52 PM

#

since we project their laptop to the screen

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 8:52 PM

#

And you probably know where I am

#

Oo

#

I guess Mines the same since it's a screen share

shadow moss Jan 3, 2020, 8:53 PM

#

here is VSCode, API documentation and we started up C# API application already

#

please write function where I can pass in two numbers and operator and return response as int

#

result comes back as json

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 8:55 PM

#

Gotta love practical interviews

#

I agree, easy to see if someone knows a language or not by just asking the basics and seeing them work it out

shadow moss Jan 3, 2020, 9:07 PM

#

plus it lets us slowly add complexity

#

like if they are doing well, we are like divide 8 by 0

#

and API handles it by returning differently depending on the route

#

my company writes a ton of API which is why we test on them

vapid jay Jan 3, 2020, 9:11 PM

#

Interesting

torpid bolt Jan 3, 2020, 9:14 PM

#

traversing a tree is easy with recursion, it's a bit more fun without it 🙂

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 12:59 AM

#

If i studied python in house and excelled in it, Would it be an actual career or do i need college, Or in other words is that even eligible as requirement to work

#

Am lowkey unmotivated to study python or programming in general but am forcing myself to do it cuz it has bright career

#

But idk what to do since i cant even get to college

#

Ping me if u got answers ^-^

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:07 AM

#

I don't have a CS degree but I'm doing p okay

#

it depends on what you mean by "excelled" though

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:13 AM

#

for how long did u study it tho

#

well, how far did u get good with python

#

i would like to reach to state where i can land job with python

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:15 AM

#

to get a job?

#

3-4 months

#

@ bootcamp

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:15 AM

#

Seriously?

#

wait hol up whats bootcamp

#

and how do i get one

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:15 AM

#

although TBH it wasn't very useful

#

quite low-level

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:15 AM

#

kekw

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:15 AM

#

just Google "coding bootcamp"

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:16 AM

#

so u dragged urself into studying it

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:16 AM

#

wouldn't call it...dragged?

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:16 AM

#

well, in other words u technically pulled urself independently to study it

#

but i rly would like to know more bout the situation that lead u to ur place rn

#

how much hours per day did u study?, and how'd u progress through python

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:17 AM

#

bootcamp is basically a condensed university course with less accreditation, cost and time

#

I hear General Assembly is popular if you're in the US (I'm not)

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:18 AM

#

im not either tbh

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:18 AM

#

also the job situation in your country

#

might be different.

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:18 AM

#

well am in dubai

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:18 AM

#

in mine, a degree is pretty important to get the initial interview

#

so I more or less had to work for startups

#

I also started freelancing, which paid a lot better than startups

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:18 AM

#

Yah it is the same here but i cant afford it

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:18 AM

#

I'm going to be moving overseas to work in a while

#

salary/benefits are a lot better

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:19 AM

#

what did u freelance as

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:19 AM

#

I do mentoring/code review/projects

#

for data science and machine learning

#

and some miscellaneous SWE stuff

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:19 AM

#

i am fresh High school graduate and idk what to do to proceed next without college

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:19 AM

#

I wish I had gotten into it younger

#

but well

#

it's really hard to say because your country's culture is probably quite different from mine

#

there are tons of free resources online that can help you get started

#

but whether you can actually get a job is something else entirely, because that depends on what employers in your region look at

#

and you can't control that.

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:22 AM

#

true

#

but well python is progressive in demand as career?

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:23 AM

#

I would say so...?

#

incidentally, I have mentored a fair number of people from the middle east

#

and some from Dubai specifically.

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:23 AM

#

then technically any advanced country/city with progressive economy needs it

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:23 AM

#

so, seems like it

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:26 AM

#

so python wasnt ur first thing in

#

programming field

#

well yikes

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:29 AM

#

huh

#

what do you mean?

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:33 AM

#

You started ur programming field in bootcamp yes?

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:33 AM

#

oh

#

yeah I guess

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:33 AM

#

then u advanced with free lancing?

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 1:35 AM

#

among other things

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 1:41 AM

#

btw how do u get job other then freelancing then?

#

if ur experienced w python

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 2:06 AM

#

uh

#

apply?

#

that's what I did

vapid jay Jan 4, 2020, 2:07 AM

#

guys

#

/cries

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 2:08 AM

#

why

vapid jay Jan 4, 2020, 2:11 AM

#

i feel like i should've started learning programming a while ago

#

i just do sys admin stuff, it's poo

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 2:20 AM

#

that's rough

#

but why not start now?

#

the best time to start was a few years ago, and the second best is now

solid berry Jan 4, 2020, 2:25 AM

#

Yes but what did u apply as 😮 and wut was ur programming potentials by the time u looked for job

agile bramble Jan 4, 2020, 2:37 AM

#

what is the preferred amount of programming languages you should know in order to be successful in the work world

radiant moon Jan 4, 2020, 2:41 AM

#

n

#

where n is determined by the job 🙂

#

that's an impossible question to answer.

#

each job is going to have its requirements.

#

At my job I use python a lot, AWS Cloudformation Templates a bit, a couple of weird internal proprietary things a bit, shell occasionally, ruby occasionally. I obviously didn't know the weird proprietary things when I was hired.

#

nor did I know Cloudformation Templates.

#

once you've learned two or three languages, learning subsequent ones is pretty easy

#

(although those subsequent ones tend to suck; I wonder why that is 🙂 )

dry sapphire Jan 4, 2020, 3:28 AM

#

I applied as a data scientist

#

uh

#

I think for my level of experience, I was pretty good?

worthy tartan Jan 4, 2020, 5:49 AM

#

Hey anyone on?

dark salmon Jan 4, 2020, 5:56 AM

#

i need umm

#

advice

#

i have to choose between a machine learning course and a computer graphics course

#

idk which one i should take?

#

i'm interested in computer vision in general

worthy tartan Jan 4, 2020, 6:02 AM

#

What type of jobs can python get me