those might be more suitable for experienced developers, but not so much for people looking to get their feet wet in the open source world.
#career-advice
rare sand
at the very least a project should have some sort of guide to get you started and some sort of place where you can communicate with other contribs. if it doesn't have that, there's probably better stuff out there.
shut geyser
Ah okay
sonic bluff
@rare sand Thank you for your very thoughtful response. Ill take a look into some opensource projects and see what I can find!
nocturne snow
Anyone know a (free) platform to practice interview-ish questions?
return "".join(sorted(word1)) == "".join(sorted(word2))``` that kind of stuff
broken oar
What types of Python libraries do companies expect you to know
nocturne snow
Depends on what you want to do Kuulie
what do you want to do?
Common ones are like numpy, pandas etc
broken oar
im currently interested in dev/devops
nocturne snow
any specific type?
For instance, if you want to work on AI related stuff, its vastly different from web stuff with django etc
broken oar
my background in IT and the technologies i've been studying are SQL, Azure/AWS, Python
not really interested in AI
i like front end stuff too
Im gonna study JS and HTML and CSS too
nocturne snow
https://www.edureka.co/blog/python-libraries/ these are quite common ones
but keep in mind that you want to have a goal in mind
broken oar
i hear about pandas a lot
nocturne snow
Pandas is for dealing with data
Pandas goes hand in hand with libraries like scikit learn
but again, you need to know your end goal. If you want to work on web development, you might not need that. If you want to work on big data, you need something else. I suggest making a plan as to what you want to achieve with your coding skills 🙂
broken oar
I was originally targeting devops but its really not an entry level role
I like front end and I think id be good at it but salary is important to me the most
nocturne snow
Haha, salary is most important?
broken oar
😛
nocturne snow
Machine learning engineer is probably the title you want then
broken oar
haha ok maybe not then
nocturne snow
But you started with the questions what libraries to learn. I suggest just picking up a project with a practical end-goal in mind, and looking what you need to finish said project.
good luck!
broken oar
youre right, thanks for your advice
inner wrenBOT
Hey @hushed kestrel!
hushed kestrel
@sonic bluff Imposture syndrome is a biological/human response that is irrational and not founded in reality. It is a emotional disorder. There are a few ways to fight against the irrationality in your own head.
1] To fight the effects of feeling like you don't deserve your goal, get someone who you respect to day that you are qualified. (Seeking validation from the right sources is just a biological Human response mechanism that will make you feel better. This approach sucks IMHO because someone giving you validation isn't trustworthy. But this works.)
2] The fundamental disconnect of imposture syndrome is the preceived difference between the 'ideal' that deserves what you want/are doing and who you are. To resolve this, what you need to do is layout the qualities of a typical case that deserves what you are doing/seeking. You can start a list of what you think the position requires, then you take this list and talk to people in the industry and check against people who are professionals and ask if they embody your ideals. You need feedback to refine your list. What you will find is that you completely over estimate what is requirements of most jobs. You probably misapprehend something as simple as the ideal candidate for any job is someone who can do 50-70% of what the job requires and then can crow into the additional 50%-30% of it. You will also find that the subjects that require mastery/learning are actually things you can accomplish in 1 month +- 2 weeks.
3] Time + Experience. You will realize through proof over time that you fit in these positions and the feelings will go away and your ego will be filled with a track record of success and arrogance will form once again. This can be a temporary state. Once you have 50k in the bank, have good credit, a satisfying relationship, health insurance, and lots of safety nets your anxiety levels will go down and you will realize that even if you were an imposter, you have nothing to fear because you have enough alternatives that it doesn't actually fucking matter
4] Just to break the rule of 3's
5] 99% of the time it is just better to try and see what happens and not be worried about the consequences when it comes to getting jobs. As long as you have a safety net, you can be over ambitious and try things and see what works out. We are all biological slugs crawling across the face of some rocks trying to find meaning in life. Society doesn't exist and you get to define your relationship to other slugs however the fuck you want. Society says you are an imposter, maybe you are, but just because that is what other people say doesn't mean that is what you are. At the end of the day who gives a fuck, just apply, see what happens and screw the haters.
.
.At the end of the day, you need to take proactive steps to fight against this feeling. If you do nothing it'll linger.
rare sand
I've never taken "proactive steps to fight against" imposter syndrome, frankly I find this to be overly dramatic advice unless you're completely debilitated by it. It's completely natural and will continue to dissipate with every successful bugfix and every new feature you write. validation, better understanding of what your position actually requires, all the stuff you're mentioning is stuff that happens naturally in most careers.
vast shoal
I had impostor syndrome at uni and when I first started out my professional career, and as @rare sand says, it dissipated as I started managing to actually achieve stuff and provide value at work.
But I guess there can be varying degrees of impostor syndrome, maybe for some people it's more pervasive and doesn't go away even in the face of empirical evidence to the contrary. Maybe in those cases you might need some kind of more systematic approach to dealing with it. Though if it gets to that point, maybe you should talk to a therapist as well.
hushed kestrel
It's different for different people. For the past 3-5 years I have been working alone on every project that I've worked on. I spent 95+ % of my time not interacting with other people. I don't get consistent external validators for how well I am doing that often. (very little positive reinforcement). My lack of validation from other people does make me think 'I am not worthy', but by all accounts I should be cooler than 75-85% of my peers
Also imposture syndrome is pernicious because it stifles ambition
vast shoal
It certainly is more prone to happen when you work isolated like that, which is probably why I encountered it while I was doing my thesis for example.
But it's not a super common work situation to be in for most people.
hushed kestrel
if it is only a small existential feeling of dread, you don't have to go through the steps to make sure you are doing the right thing
But if you wanted to get rid of it, this is how you approach the problem
vast shoal
Kudos to you for finding a way to deal with it.
It sounds like the kinds of exercises a therapist might put you to doing.
hushed kestrel
That sounds positive, but I am not a therapist and maybe they are more like "Here are some drugs, take these. " Lol.
(The trick to this technique is you are building up external validators, replacing people's approval with a empirical system that validates you, and then you trust in the validity of that system)
vast shoal
Sounds like what a psychiatrist would say, I was thinking more along the lines of a CBT therapist.
CBT involves a lot of exercises of learning to rely on and trust objective facts rather than your emotions, as I understand it.
Maybe we're straying a bit off topic for the channel now, though.
hushed kestrel
Probably.
drifting geyser
Hi, first time posting.
Im unsure as to what the job titles for people who work in accounting/financial offices who deal heavily with excel/csv files who use python libraries to make their work easier. Any ideas as to what keywords might better help find these positions?
Not really looking for a developer or data science position. Looking more for that back office job with alot of excel data that i can automate in within a year or so.
Thoughts?
rare sand
every backoffice job I've ever encountered pretty much fits that description.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a company that wouldn't benefit from someone to come in and clean up and automate their bottomless well of excel data.
hardy ferry
If the employer knew what you were doing they would just hire a programmer. No reason to pay an employee if all he does is run some scripts.
You'll just apply for an accounting position where you naturally work a lot with data. Then you automate. You can then tell about your scripts at which point the employer will notice that much more work can be done with less employees. You'll have to secure your job somehow because of favoritism.
rare sand
hard to say what job titles to look for, though. I guess stuff like operations roles and sysadmins would be particularly suited for contributing that kind of thing, but even if you were an accountant I'm not sure you'd meet much resistance trying to clean up with automation.
@hardy ferry paints a more dystopian picture than I do here, which may well be accurate some places.
my experience has been mixed when it comes to that. I did end up fighting because of automation when I was an operations coordinator because the CEO didn't want me to "waste company time writing code"
but in other positions it's been welcomed with open arms.
craggy wave
I'd say those backoffice jobs lemon describes are where I'd look here as well. A lot ask for excel skills, some even want you to be able to write some automation for things that come up. Obviously, no employer is looking for someone who automates their job and then collects money for watching the scripts run, but larger companies may want people who can automate the more menial tasks that come up.
I know that's one of the reasons my university often hires students to help in those departments, since a lot of different things come up that don't have standard solution lying around. (but they have the luxery of hiring students for basically no pay.)
hushed kestrel
My friend had a job where they automated reports and worked from home. He basically did less than an hour of work a day for a 40-50 k job
rare sand
sounds a bit dishonest.
I've automated a lot of work in my time but I usually took on other tasks with the time that opened up.
although I did spend some of the free time my automation generated studying Python and getting better at automating.
hushed kestrel
'dishonest' ? I don't know. Employers aren't responsible to work towards their employees' advantage if it doesn't help themselves out, I think the relationship is mutual. If you are hired for a job and you do that job, I don't think you are obligated to take on additional responsibility IMHO
rare sand
okay, but I personally wouldn't want to hire someone with that attitude.
hushed kestrel
Your company probably selects for a different sort of an employee
Some companies just need cogs and for them, the best cog is something that is reliable .
hushed kestrel
(I was just contributing to let people know jobs like this exist is all )
(Since it is related to 'excel automation' jobs)
rare sand
mm, you're probably right about that 
👍
hardy ferry
I don't mind doing more work outside of my responsibilities. It would bore me if I was only focused on my obligation and when I'm finished I call it a day. But if you are taking on more responsibilities you can expect more pay.
rare sand
yep, I've successfully negotiated raises using automation as a key argument, so I think you can expect more pay when you show that you have a capacity beyond the initially projected scope.
hushed kestrel
There are good consulting jobs where you develop other companies' infrastructure using automation.
But those are relegated to the large consultancies that ask for a very specific sort of employee
(Probably not desirable unless you are especially driven )
vast shoal
There's a sentence in my employment contract that says "The Employee shall at all times act in the interest of the Employer thereby creating a maximum of trust and goodwill for the Employer’s business." I think this sort of implies that I'm obliged to do what I can to further the interest of the employer, and not just what they explicitly told me to do.
hushed kestrel
For what role?
There are some public facing roles that require you to present the company in the best light
vast shoal
Software engineer
hushed kestrel
This means you can't for instance publicly admonish your company, or if you do, it is a fireable offense where you wont receive unemployment
rare sand
yeah, I had to sign something similar, but actually here in Norway, admonishing your company publicly or somehow intentionally acting against the best interest of your employer would be probably fall under a breach of loyalty, from which companies are protected by law.
most commonly this is enforced if someone leaks sensitive data to a competitor, though. and that's even if they haven't signed any kind of NDA
hushed kestrel
How saveyy is the company writing this doc? I'm looking up the language you expressed in a few law books and I haven't found that language as a clause
Makes me feel that it is a bit vague, and any vagueness works for you.
vast shoal
I have no idea, tbh.
hushed kestrel
IANAL<- But it seems like if you think the best interest of a company is to publicly shame it to make it act better, that technically is correct
ect ect. Pretty niche, but still.
vast shoal
I just imagine that it would be hard to get away with shit-talking my employer, in this country anyway.
rare sand
it's a principle of good faith.
it's not strictly defined, by design.
but applies mostly in situations where there has been a severe breach of loyalty
as should most NDAs, or they end up becoming weaponized.
hushed kestrel
I think in practice, Lemon is right.
rare sand
norwegian courts can even completely disregard an NDA they feel is unreasonable, and legal practice always tends to favor employees over employers over here in edge cases.
hushed kestrel
Oh fuk, I am only talking about united states law
rare sand
yeah, where things are definitely not the same.
marsh wind
I think overall EU is vastly different compared to US when it comes not just to laws and employees protection but even the job market
It's important to note country in question when discuss things like that and, especially, when someone asks a practical advice about contract terms, salary, resume etc
drifting geyser
So this got alot more responses than i thought. Alittle background as to my question. Im from the US and have alot more experience with accounting than with programming. In the middle of reading "automate the boring stuff" and the openxl chapter hit hard. Wanted to see if companies would list a desire for knowledge of scripting on job listings.
As for the ethics discussion, working for a large company, as long as fill your role, doing things to free up your time to do other things for a company seems more like a plus. Probably minus an incompetent manager that has no idea what you are doing and why.
Dont know what reasonable expectations a 50-70k job could ask for if you can do the work assigned to you faster.
hardy briar
@rare sand nice beard bro
rare sand
thanks @hardy briar, weird channel to post this in though.
hardy briar
sorry, haha, i was reading this discuss and noticed the beard
shadow moss
disagree about being dishonest, I'm personally sick of US culture of if you manage to get your job down from 25 hours to 5, you should pick up more work
and I work at very large US compay you would know, working harder like that will not get you rewards you are hoping, whoever, is telling you that needs to responded to with "OK boomer"
thin light
Yeah, working hard isn't the way to go. That's why I just work normally, unless they tell me that when I am done, I can go and get full hours, then I a gonna bust ass
hushed kestrel
@shadow moss The sentiment behind it is 'dishonest' is from the POV of the owner. At smaller companies and with employees with actual careers with upward mobility, what you describe should never happen. If you have a career, you should when you automate a lot of your job, ask for more responsibility + pay that goes along with it. You turn yourself from a software developer to become a software engineer.
America has the culture that you shouldn't stagnate at your job and you should always be looking to improve. This sentiment only doesn't make sense with dead end jobs which people think if they do well they'll somehow rise above it.
I would for instance agree that if you are young and and you automate your job so you are only working 10 hours a week, you should take on more responsibility while you still can to get to those higher positions and better situate yourself for the long term. (You are throwing away your own productivity and your own ability to better your life. )
This doesn't mean that you need to take on more responsibility for your job, but you need to do 'something' and not just play video games all day or sleep 10-14 hours or whatever.
drifting geyser
Gotta ask, what then if you use up all your extra free time in your job to develop yourself so that you can leave for another?
coral bronze
shadow moss
@drifting geyser you are smarter then most people
drifting geyser
Doubt it. My brain smol.
shadow moss
@hushed kestrel I've been in one company where hard work paid off and resulted in promotions and I quickly hit the point of no further returns. What you are talking about is rare. Most companies hire you for specific task and won't reward you for making that job go faster. "Reward" will be more work and maybe few extra bucks. Sure, don't spend your downtime playing video games but in American culture, best way to get ahead is go fuck "beep you, I'm here for me and me alone"
because your company will likely be doing that, ask them to sign employment contract with you moving you off "at-will"
and enjoy the laughing
rare sand
man, conversations like this make me feel like an alien. you guys have worked at some seriously unhealthy companies.
I'm very glad I've never had to be part of that world, that kind of me-first mentality would completely ruin the job for me. I don't know how you guys can live like that.
shadow moss
lemon, are you American?
rare sand
50/50, American and Norwegian.
but most of my career was spent in Norway, and a bit in Ireland at IBM
IBM, the quintessential huge American company
where my hard work and automation was rewarded with many raises and promotions, by the way.
I still hated working there but thats besides the point.
but this isn't the first time someone has painted a picture of a frankly unsettling dog-eat-dog culture in American companies.
I'm just very glad I never had to experience that shit first hand because it sounds absolutely unreal to me.
prime ruin
I don't have much life/career experience, but it sounds like you found a good company/boss more than anything
rare sand
I've had a dozen good companies in a row then I guess.
prime ruin
Perhaps not 'a' - within your first few jobs you found at least one
Well, not every company is going to be great, but I can see how a terrible culture perpetuates. I haven't really worked in those but I think my parents are working in one
craggy wave
Most of friends who work for companies here in The Netherlands have similar experiences as @rare sand has sketched.
Hard work gets rewarded, although hard work is often expected
And, well, if they don't, there are plenty of other employers to shop around with
Now, most of these companies are either tech or engineering, but I guess that's the area we're talking about anyway
rare sand
hey man, I'm happy to admit my experience is anecdotal but I just think it's creepy the way @shadow moss, @thin light and to some degree @hushed kestrel are framing hard work as something that should be avoided or that only "boomers" are stupid enough to believe in. and that's coming from somewhere pragmatic, I don't think hard work in and of itself is something to strive for, I've just had it pay off wildly for my personal career.
if my experience is anything to go by, I would recommend it. but maybe I've just been terribly lucky.
shadow moss
lemon, what i'm talking about is strictly American thing
hushed kestrel
HMM I was advocating hard work to put yourself in the best position while you possibly can. It's harder to advance your career as you get older and I certainly believe in paths of least resistance.
Hard work should never be the thing that you are maximizing around, it's only a biproduct of the endeavors you are trying to achieve
shadow moss
like American companies in America
like our europeans behave totally different and they get treated totally different
hushed kestrel
In the united states you are expected to change jobs every 1.5-3 years in your twenties because companies wont promote you to hire positions (The typical way you actually see serious wage increases beyond the 5-8k bonuses at the end of the year
shadow moss
I think it's byproduct of terrible labor laws
rare sand
I'm inclined to agree, there.
if it's really as bad as you guys make it sound, it's almost definitely a byproduct of terrible labor laws.
hushed kestrel
How is it a byproduct of labor laws?
shadow moss
sinthrill, their ability to be like "Congrats, you are fired!"
and lack of social net
rare sand
scandinavian legislation tends to be designed to protect the employee. it's very, very difficult to fire someone. so if you can't fire people, you have to be really careful who you hire in the first place. And once you manage to hire that person, you have to do what you can to hold on to them, because you can be sure that they will be swimming in offers from competitors.
so, this results in a culture where it's natural to reward hard workers, make sure it pays to stick with a company for a long time, and all these other effects we're discussing.
shadow moss
like they just decided for budget reasons at my company that $project they hired a bunch of people for was no longer going to be done for profit reasons. So they let everyone go but told them 'you can apply to other positions in company if you want', they gave them 2 weeks salary + 1 week per year of service
that would never fly in Europe
and since Americna health care, they had 3 months of health insurance then after that, any major medical would bankrupt them
I bet every European reading this is going: 
rare sand
we do have cutbacks in europe - an employer can't just be expected to burn to the ground because they got involved in some project that won't be profitable enough to pay their workers. that's one of the few circumstances in which you could let people go.
shadow moss
the SVP that did that basically said "My bonus is tied to profits, by cutting that group, I transfer the expense off to generic HR cost center and my profit for next quarter is going to be really nice"
hushed kestrel
It used to be that you had a career at a company 30+ years ago and you would be like "I work at ibm and I've been there forever and a day" but with no pensions, matching comps, whatever, there are exactly zero incentives to stay with companies long term as long as there are better opportunities out there
shadow moss
that $project was making money, just not at rate expected
so now it's going to be ultra profitable in short term because all Devs/QA/Project Managers won't be billing it
rare sand
yeah that sounds a lot more cynical.
shadow moss
that's publically traded companies in America
rare sand
you'd have to document that the cutbacks were truly necessary over here.
shadow moss
Quarterly Profits
rare sand
or you'd have to move the employees to other tasks.
rare sand
here's what I'm getting out of what you're saying
if you live in the united states; leave the united states.
shadow moss
since I hold only one citizenship, harder then you think
rare sand
oh I know it's hard.
hushed kestrel
UHH
There are some (kinds) people in the US that are wildly successful. Tech people make it out very well I think.
People who are super hard working, smart, and well connected can make millions pretty easily I think.
(easily being a relative term)
rare sand
yeah they earn a frankly absurd amount of money, but I don't care if you pay me 5x what I make in norway if I have to fight for my life every day like I'm fucking mad max in the dustbowl
that shit sounds miserable
shadow moss
I mean, I've made it well as well
indigo sleet
I've heard from a lot of posts online that it is super competitve, working in a US tech workplace
I couldn't imagine it myself, though
It really feels like you want to work with your team
shadow moss
it's not super competitive with your team
hushed kestrel
Like, it isn't unreasonable for me to make 170k then 210 in the next two years, then 300-500 (3 years) after that
shadow moss
Sinthrill, you taking USD/
hushed kestrel
Yes.
shadow moss
whatever you are smoking, i want some of that
hushed kestrel
(150+40k comp is typical FAANG money)
prime ruin
300k!?
shadow moss
gdude, it's not competitive with your coworkers
it's generally management vs workers
prime ruin
I'm pretty sure 300k+ is middle management at least
unless I'm really wrong and have no scale of how FANG pays
indigo sleet
It sounds sort of like that from what I've read, but it appears that there's some competition between workers as well in some companies?
I'm not 100% sure
hushed kestrel
It's weird because of base salary Vs total comp also with high prices of housing/other things
hushed kestrel
In the united states, if you work a 15/h job, you are contributing to 25$ of revenue
If you are being paid 200k, you are probably bringing 250-350k.
A way to make that much is just by working for yourself
shadow moss
just some MBA somewhere will be like "Let's make some bonuses and fire some workers that we have to rehire down the line"
hushed kestrel
You don't fire people anymore, their contract ends!
(California finally this year is updating their employer/emplyee contracts to make using contractors much much much more difficult)
rare sand
meanwhile, not even the prime minister makes 250K over here.
hushed kestrel
US pres makes 300k
+50k untaxed
Typically they are wealthy for reasons outside their job
100k for a coder is base pay in the bay area, past housing and expenses you are pocketing something like 35k a year
rare sand
yeah, to reframe that into american terms - not even CEOs of major tech companies make what your regular devs make
hushed kestrel
Yeah
The average coding dev in UK makes like, 40-60 LBS
(lbs by which I mean pounds)
indigo sleet
GBP, haha
hushed kestrel
(My rent per month right now unemployed is like, 1,800 USD)
hushed kestrel
Notch just hit the golden ticket at the right time.
If you are able to code a shitty game, have 100 of the royalties and have it blow up to be the most played game on the planet earth
rare sand
notch is swedish
hushed kestrel
Then fine
indigo sleet
Swedish, but yeah, he hit a moneypot
rare sand
he made enough, I'm sure.
hushed kestrel
It wasn't because he was smart or did something right.
Lotteries reward random people
rare sand
it's because he's a reasonable person who realized he had enough money to live comfortably for the rest of his life and chasing more of it would probably just lead to unhappiness.
hushed kestrel
The flappy bird dude is a better example of this I think
rare sand
yeah. he didn't make shit, iirc.
indigo sleet
I think he stopped when it started making money
indigo sleet
Ads
hushed kestrel
Advertisements
rare sand
it had ads?
hushed kestrel
The game did
indigo sleet
It did, yep
rare sand
sorry, I must admit I didn't play it.
hushed kestrel
Neither did I
indigo sleet
Yeah I've only played clones too
rare sand
okay well if he made millions off ads why would he want the spotlight. sounds like a smart decision to walk away.
indigo sleet
I mean if I was making that much I'd probably still do whatever made me that much
Assuming it was moral
hushed kestrel
Weird positions put weird stresses on you that you have spent 0 time developing skills on how to cope
This is why people are so fascinated for how celebrities cope with their nonsense
indigo sleet
That's fair
hushed kestrel
Yeah, it's just insane how $$$ coding is.
And for the US in tech , if you are willing to have no life, it's totally great that companies beg for you to work for them with all the monies
There are arguments that social saftey nets allow walmart to pay people minimum wage because we subsidize their employee's wages with safety net benefits
indigo sleet
It interests me both just how many companies are going remote only, and how few remote jobs there actually are
hushed kestrel
Remote jobs are weird beasts
My roomate (a wolf of wallstreet coke snorting consultant )'s company went remote
which basically meant that they just didn't have an office for their employees and they were allowed to work from home
Not that they offer remote jobs to people out of state/all over the world
hushed kestrel
I am sure more companies are doing more 'remote' things, but there is this other trend that is happening
Especially as real-estate in major cities becomes more and more expensive
indigo sleet
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense
rare sand
we have about half the workforce as remote workers
and I can work remote whenever I want
but I prefer not to
indigo sleet
Yeah, I can understand why, knowing your situation
For me I feel like programming would have to be remote, there just nothing here
rare sand
I drive 45 minutes every day to go hang out in the office, because I genuinely love being there.
well, almost every day. I'll work from home if it's particularly convenient.
maybe my kid has a thing or I'm like going to a barber or something.
nice to have the option
indigo sleet
That does sound nice
rare sand
we have a great culture of knowledge sharing so I can soak up a lot of valuable information just from being around the office.
besides, I find it really hard to stay motivated for remote work
hushed kestrel
I know that feeling
I agree with that a lot too Lemon
It's even better because I am more hardware focused and I need a lot of work spaces
(2-3 desks with multiple levels, swivel monitor, white board. Lots of people if you have a problem you can just go and visit and ask for their solutions. It's actually magical/great )
indigo sleet
I always found it harder to motivate in an office
But I think that's because my brain responds badly to things like meetings
I'm better where I currently work since I have my own office, but it's not well paid work, nor does it have a ton of programming (though there is some)
hushed kestrel
Meetings break up work flows IMHO
At least in meetings that go beyond 2-3 people Including yourself (4) is pushing it
indigo sleet
I would have been OK with evening standups
Morning standups ruined my productivity haha
rare sand
a ten minute meeting in the morning ruins your productivity for the rest of the day?
can't relate.
hushed kestrel
Mornings are very tricky
For some people, they don't wake up until after lunch
For me my first 3 hours are the most productive of the day
indigo sleet
I think it's a me problem, it doesn't seem very common
hushed kestrel
No, It's true for me too
indigo sleet
I was practically falling asleep at the other meetings, and it wasn't like I wasn't sleeping well
rare sand
my most productive hours tend to be the last 3
indigo sleet
I find I do better in the morning
hushed kestrel
I don't allow myself to drink coffee after 12-1 pm.
So it gets pretty nutz around 6-7 for me.
indigo sleet
I don't do coffee and I still can't decide if that's a good thing
hushed kestrel
(Caffeine is what I mean by coffee for the record)
indigo sleet
Well, okay, I don't do that either haha
hushed kestrel
There is a positive relationship that you can form with it. I find that it gives me motivation to get into things and by the time it wears off I just keep coasting having been already into it
There is a good relationship/way to use it without going off the deep end
It's probably more useful as you get older
Or when you get less healthy
thin light
"hey man, I'm happy to admit my experience is anecdotal but I just think it's creepy the way @Rabbit, @KC and to some degree @Sinthrill are framing hard work as something that should be avoided or that only "boomers" are stupid enough to believe in. and that's coming from somewhere pragmatic, I don't think hard work in and of itself is something to strive for, I've just had it pay off wildly for my personal career." "Crewpy"? What's so creepy about what I said..? I meN I M not following you around, peeking through your window or fliming you sleep. @rare sand
And to be clear, I am trying to say that working hard for someone else's company isnt something I am in favor of. I show up on time, do what the guy tells me and pack up at the end of the day. I dont go the extra mile. Working had for your self though, that's a different story
rare sand
it all sounds like a horror show to me. the cultural contrast from the world I live in is unsettling.
I don't think I could deal with it.
balmy mural
As someone planning to emigrate once I'm done studying and have some work experience under the belt, the work culture of America is one of the biggest reasons I've ruled it out as a possibility. Just doing the bare minimum and letting a day go to waste seems like I'd be wasting both my personal and my employer's time. I'd much rather put the most effort possible in without burning my self out.
rare sand
glad I'm not the only person turned off by the idea.
marsh wind
if you live in the united states; leave the united states.
lemon, that is why when someone asks me if I would go for job in US I say "Hell no"
to many people who live/lived there had very very different experiece
rare sand
you in europe then?
marsh wind
I found that where I am now, in France (not my home country too) I have better chances for some long term stability and protection even if I will make less
Especially since I am now unemployed looking for quite big career change and I am covered by the government, money wise, allowing me some self education as much as I need instead of combining it with some shitty job just to pay the rent
I think it's simply more healthy here
Even though it is still challenging - I did here PhD in physics, saw that I didn't want academic career and decided to move towards Machine learning or dev job,and if you didn't hit some jackpot (or didn't have network) there's quite an effort to get into a field, but I don't feel insecure
And I don't think I could do that in US as non citizen
Wow, this was quite bit longer than I initially thought to write lol
hushed kestrel
What kind of physics did you specialize in?
I only got my bullshit degree in physics
(i think for the vast majority of intermediate programmers with various backgrounds on this server, America is probably 'just fine' and the biggest issue is actually immigrating than leading a shit life. )
(We really aren't the group of people who are being absolutely donked over in the united states )
marsh wind
Theoretical/computational physics (was running a lot of quantum mech calculations on clusters, some code dev for the package we use, ofc equations, and actual physical interpetation of results)
@hushed kestrel
hushed kestrel
Wait, you studied the subject of computational physics? Like, developing new methods to get better models for known things?
HMM
I guess those people who model galaxies consisting of billions of stars that all interact between eachother should get PHDs too
marsh wind
@hushed kestrel not exactly lol
I was doing theoretical physics (solid state physics to be more precise) and large portion of my work was doing quantum mechanical ab initio calculations
mostly I've been using already developed methods and models with bit of development to make them faster or to take in account some extra things
and debuging lol
analog schooner
I just quit my job. Should start looking for new one.
hardy briar
@analog schooner, what were you doing?
analog schooner
Algorithm development.
hardy briar
oh, fullstack?
analog schooner
In theory that was just the thing for me.
Nah, just complicated sorting algorithm with Python.
vapid jay
Got a question boys if yall have some time id appreciate some input ...
analog schooner
I tried too hard. I worked overtime and on my own time with the code. When I got frustrated with lack of progress I tried even harder which lead to even more frustration.
I realized I needed to quit before I burnout complitely
analog schooner
Yeah. I have been in this situation before. Now I know that better to quit than push on for couple of months and be mentally complete wreck
Also, the code that I could force out of me wouldn't be very good either, so everyone would lose, money, time and mental health
The problem was kinda fun. Something that could be turned into a computer game or something.
But, it grew exponentially more difficult and expectations of improvements grew linearly
hardy briar
what was it about, is it classified?
analog schooner
Nah. Optimization of industrial machinery
Maximize utilization of machines and minimize waste of raw materials
hardy briar
oh that sounds very complicated
i'm curious about trying to make a game someday
but looks complicated and i have more urgent needs haha
vapid jay
How much does a python Dev with 1 year experience make normally
vast shoal
Location, level of education?
slim island
1 year of experience in what?
vapid jay
@vapid jay u can't be having a single expertise programming language only around 5 or more that's where you can earn money my man also full stack developer can make 100k+ dollar per year or month
vast shoal
If you have no other experience whatsoever, i. e., you're a 19-year old high school dropout who started self-teaching 1 year ago, I doubt you will get hired anywhere.
vapid jay
Can i write on my resume
started python when i was 15 ?
in future ofc
@vapid jay argon?
Oh nwm
Nvm
slim island
@vapid jay i wouldn't word it that way but yes do communicate that you started learning of your own volition and not when you started formal education
that's a trait i personally look for and value a lot
vapid jay
Oh silver
vast shoal
@vapid jay I usually mention somewhere in my cover letter that I've been playing around with coding since I was young. I wouldn't put it down as a listed credential, though.
slim island
are cover letters still a thing..?
slim island
my last 5+ changes were a reachout from recruiter, talk with recruiter, send CV, meet hiring folk from employer, possibly do a test, make decision
vast shoal
The introductory paragraph on my LinkedIn profile
vapid jay
@vast shoal @vapid jay ^
slim island
master algorithms huh
vapid jay
Bruh don't ever underestimate your ability to be capable at this
rare sand
dude what the fuck. please be trolling.
slim island
yeah but why would you tell that to an employer
they're looking for someone who is competent and motivated and knows how to problem-solve
mild zenith
Yeah he's here
vapid jay
rare sand
so, this channel is for career discussion, can we get it back on track now?
vapid jay
Yeah so CEH or oscp
rare sand
you might need to ask that in #cybersecurity
I mean, it's fine to ask it here but I doubt you'll get an answer.
vapid jay
Is it significant for our careers?
mild zenith
What?
hushed kestrel
With a lot of difficulty
past rampart
what is difficult?
hushed kestrel
Switching careers
marsh wind
btw what did you mean my bullsiht physics degree yesterday? @hushed kestrel
hushed kestrel
Ahh
(B.S.) Degree
I am pretty sure it stands for Bull shit
(I bring levity and fun to #career-advice
mild zenith
Which isn't the place for it
marsh wind
well we were discussing careers at that time
hushed kestrel
(I was discussing my qualifications / my interests )
mild zenith
Ah, the fact that bull shit was a part of it made it seem more aggressive than I thought. Carry on
marsh wind
well yeah, we had discussion about countries and careers, and it went towards my qualitifcation/degree and Sinthril had some question on it saying "What kind of physics did you specialize in?
I only got my bullshit degree in physics"
I was just kinda confused whether it was actual B.Sc. or something else hehe
so it was all fine and on topic, 90% xD
hushed kestrel
I am just interested what physics people do with computer science things. Having only a BS means that I am prices out of a lot of positions, or at least no one ever wants to hire me over a CS person unless I pretend to be ML or something
marsh wind
yeah I think I was not clear enough there was little of actual computer science
hushed kestrel
No, I think I have an idea for what you did.
Comp physics is pretty different. (I had an undergrad upper div class in comp-physics)
I know 'anything' about it
marsh wind
👍 problem is, aparentrly it is too much between different things making it kinda hard
yeah well in this specific community people often say "comp physics" when speaking of what we do
marsh wind
and there are some people that actually do try to develop better optimization algos and etc, so it is very inhomogeneous community
to stay on topic tho, I did not do enough of dev to easily qualify for soft dev jobs and I did not have to do any statistical analysis or deal with lots of data to easily quailfy for data analysis/machine learning.
also many companies here undervalue/don't understand what does it mean that someone has a PhD
hushed kestrel
What about PH.Ds do you think is undervalued/ under represented ?
marsh wind
they don't understand that most likely a person with PhD in STEM field has a capability to learn things and grasp new concepts fast, they also don't understand that (at least in France where I did PhD and where I look for a position) it is actually a full time job and not extra 3 years of studying. Also PhDs can be quite independent, very flexible and already have decent management, presentation and public speaking skills, . Hence they undervalue PhD compared to people with MSc that are typically 3-4 years younger and who has more targeted education
at least that is the way it feels to me from my experience interviewing and discussing with other people in similar position
pulsar drum
I guess that's why it is said not to get a PhD for the money
marsh wind
@pulsar drum well I didn't do it for money
pulsar drum
Oh I was just making an observation
marsh wind
Right, that's true
past rampart
😝 I studied tax law but after 5 years I am switch my future.
burnt tiger
Yeah there's also the issue that a lot of STEM fields are heavily based on experience rather than pure education, so in many cases you get more immediate value out of someone with a BSc or MSc if they spent those years as a Software Engineer rather than in college.
Not to say that PhDs aren't sought after, if you have a Comp Sci PhD or 5 years of experience with a relevant BSc you can find a job as a SDE (software dev engineer) pretty much anywhere
gilded valley
I have two internship offers for data science roles at finance companies - during both interviews it seemed to me like I didn't know near enough stats (have never covered it in formal education) - is it worth finding a stats course on something like MIT OpenCourseware and working through it, or is the theory not actually that relevant to day-to-day work?
hardy briar
finance is really simple when you understand basic principles
i'm not an expert, but i study economics and finance for like 6 years now
mild zenith
Formally or self taught?
hardy briar
self taught and a little part formally, i'm finishing bachelor on foreign trade
hardy briar
i've opened a little investment fund for a little group of people
i really enjoy to have something, instead of working for somebody, you learn lots of much roles opening something
the fund was great, i kept it open for seven months, got an return of average 12% in that time for each client
gilded valley
Working at big corporations seems like the most sensible way to earn good money for reasonable work - I'm not motivated enough to grind super hard and work for myself
hardy briar
got it, you have to go full hardcore, self experience
i was alone handling the money of 8 people
in these 7 months i had to be awake for 6 days, no sleep (not in a row)
my fund was in foreign exchange
i made an trading algorythm and bach then i didn't know nothing about python
so i made an "jack of all trades" excel sheet
i've been using excel 7 years, learned a lot
it's really nice to own something
lots of setbacks and your mental state goes straight to hell sometimes.. but it still worth it if you are willing to do that
but i keep that in mind, about finance and economics
if you understand basic principles
you can find gaps in the markets and work them pretty well
my goal is to learn enough programming to make an full automated investment fund again
shut geyser
@marsh wind > also many companies here undervalue/don't understand what does it mean that someone has a PhD
in France yeah, they don't really get it
but i believe that in academia there is a bit of self loathing too like
i'm a researcher i can only do academia, companies want real skills not me, i'm useless
hear all of that first hand
gilded valley
Companies like Google and Amazon are pretty willing to hire PhDs
also finance companies
marsh wind
well I try not to think in that way @shut geyser , in fact I already left academia
shut geyser
yeah, but people i met in academia don't really value their own skills
marsh wind
but I do feel a bit that way when I think of anf FAANG company
I think first of all I lack any kind of network
shut geyser
you can try to apply i think
marsh wind
to try and get there
shut geyser
they have enough money to make you pass a first round
marsh wind
or impostor syndrome, possibly
shut geyser
of interviews
Their interviews are kinda an exam so, you don't need network/experience for entry level i guess?
marsh wind
maybe, honestly I did not research them too much, I never felt I could go to one of them without the relevant experinece. So you aren't wrong there:
in academia there is a bit of self loathing too like
hardy briar
what is needed to enter google as programmer?
github level god i guess
but idk nothing about this area
what i could word included
shut geyser
They do algo code interviews
leetcode/hackerank style
and you need to present/talk about your code while you write it
afaik amazon/uber/fb do that too at different levels, for different positions
gilded valley
They also have system architecture interviews
shut geyser
ofc it depends on your experience level
gilded valley
where you have to do things like discuss how you would go about building twitter or a similar platform
shut geyser
they won't ask new grad to design Worldwide scalable system, but if you have some experience they will
gilded valley
I mean, a google engineer told me that was one of their interviews
Obviously they don't expect you to get it all right
but they just want to make sure you have a reasonable understanding of modern architectures
shut geyser
oh yeah i was not refuting your point
but for new grad or people with no experience, they leave you the choice to not do this interview, for another coding one
marsh wind
They do algo code interviews
They do algo code interviews
leetcode/hackerank style
and you need to present/talk about your code while you write it
I imagine this is for SWE postions
what about ML/data science related? Cause that is what I am leaning to now @shut geyser
So basically, if I do want to try SWE at one of those I need to do quite a bit of those DS/A challenges on leetcode/hackerank to get a grasp on them
marsh wind
@shut geyser good night and thanks for info. Are you also in/from France? Or been here before?
vapid jay
🤔
shut geyser
@marsh wind 'im from there and living in another country now
vapid jay
Need a bot for my server please DM me if you are interested 😄
fresh stump
Are you offering money?
vapid jay
Hey right now i am studying an engineer, there they taught us a bit of programming but it is a pretty basic coding, do you have any advice to improve in coding? I want to continue learning but dont really know what book or website use
open patio
!resources there are lots of great books, websites, and videos here for python
inner wrenBOT
vapid jay
@open patio thank you
open patio
np👍
cobalt lark
Anyone here have done some freelancing from France? I have some questions about taxes and stuff please :)
marsh wind
@cobalt lark if you ever find any details would you mind sharing? Or if you know smth already, as I was thinking of it as well
marsh wind
Thx
ashen crystal
I was thinking about writing something that'd create info about each csv file in a directory, nrows and ncols for now is fine. For this I was going to use pandas, but was just wondering if this was considered a bit expensive?
for the number of rows I should be able to just count the lines of the file, I think... for columns I thought perhaps counting commas, but this isn't reliable.
so perhaps the overhead of pandas is worth it here
ashen crystal
@shadow moss hrm yeah - that seems like a nicer approach 👍
though I'm now considering reporting the most common values, and trying to automate some anomaly detection
pulsar drum
This is the wrong channel
ashen crystal
@pulsar drum which channel is most appropriate for that kind of thing?
pulsar drum
Probably just a help channel. Definitely not #career-advice though.
ashen crystal
ah 🤦 sorry i didn't realise i was in here, definitely not the right channel
vapid jay
anyone a software engineer?
Please message me on discord
I need your help like right now
please
mint citrus
@vapid jay if its not career related then dont post in here
choose the right channel
mint citrus
I can tell you whatever the fuck I want
mint citrus
up to you what you do with it
mint citrus
what do you need help with anyways?
hardy briar
man u being rude with no need
vapid jay
Are you a software engineer?
mint citrus
yes
vapid jay
I aint being rude 😦
mint citrus
@vapid jay so what do you need?
mint citrus
tbh it sounded like you were going to ask some programming question
yes you are talking to one right now
guess he doesnt want any help. talk about who is salty amirite?
burnt tiger
@vapid jay Please don't ask for PMs, if you need help with something you should ask in the appropriate channel. This one is specifically for Python or general software development career advice.
!no-dm
inner wrenBOT
olive yarrow
Anybody here have some advice for me? I am currently working at a startup as a QA Engineer at 19 with no college degree. I have been getting offers now for Senior/Lead QA positions in my area and I've asked for a 20k raise at work but I'm wanting 15k. If I don't get 15k I want to start looking for a new position with a higher salary. I have 500 options vested until 2024 and I'm conflicted because if I dont stay I lose all of those options on the company but get a higher salary now. If i stay I keep the options but risk not getting a raise to bring me in line with the avg salary of somebody with my skills and experience in my position for who knows how long. Anybody ever been in this situation before?
shadow moss
Go for cash in hand always
that is insane vesting option
and very few startups go huge
and it's very possible, that stock class isn't worth what you think it is
hushed kestrel
500 options vested technically have a monetary value. I would imagine your options are diluted as the startup issues more stock to investors
hushed kestrel
So, you have some stock and if imagine your company growing to be 30,000,000 dollar company with 5-10M revenue per year. If the company dilutes the stock so that there is a max of 1,000,000 options and your company gets 30m valuation, your stock options are worth (500/1,000,000)*30,000,000. = 15,000 $. (in 2024)
The likelihood of your company going IPO in order for you to get the money out of your stock typically is less than 10% (generous), so your expected value is somewhere around 1,500.
And that 1,500 is in 2024
The question is, would you rather wait around for the 15k potential upside at 2024 with the average expected payout being 1,500.
or make 15k extra per year
hushed kestrel
(I sorta take into account that with the 10% generous chance)
(10% is still widlly unrealistic, the true number is probably somewhere in the low 0.1-0.6%
shadow moss
most likely
hushed kestrel
(but I wanted to drive the point home by being generous )
shadow moss
and other thing I've seen is they have stock classes
so option is different class that gets paid last or doesn't receive dividends
hushed kestrel
The payout is for (Investors -> Founders - > debt -> employees
It's really crap
(I think)
shadow moss
@olive yarrow TL;DR: Options are worthless, don't take them into account
payout is whatever stock articles say they are
hushed kestrel
They are especially worthless as you have 0 control over when they are executed/IPO
shadow moss
you could give employees same stock as founders so they would be paid out same as founders
realistically, no company does
hushed kestrel
No one does that unless they have 0 funding
@olive yarrow At your age/skill level, for the highest expected value you should change jobs every 1.5-3 years to increase your salary (In the united states )
humble shore
Any ideas on getting an entry level dev job with no college degree? I’m fairly proficient with python but kind of in a niche area; I work with requests a lot and automation. I’m not actively seeking a job and am planning on starting college in spring, but if that falls through I’d love to know my options. Thanks 🙂
slim island
if you have no degree you must have a public project or portfolio
something to demonstrate your competency
after you land the first job or two it will stop being a factor
hardy ferry
It's good to hear that you are starting college. But if you become a drop-out it gets even harder finding a job. And while there are success stories of drop-outs bear in mind that they were working or have brilliant minds. They dropped out not because they couldn't get the degree. They dropped out because their time was better invested elsewhere.
The safest bet of landing a job is by obtaining a degree. If the college route does not work out you will have an even harder time finding a job and you'd wish you didn't drop out.
Too many people start college knowing there is a good chance they will fail. They then stop trying further solidifying their thesis. And then life completely breaks down and they are stuck.
In my opinion it's very dangerous to already have a plan for failing college when you starting college. It just gives you a reason why it is okay to drop out of college. The older you become and the less you can show on your resume (e.g. due to dropping out) the harder it will be to hire you. Life won't be easier as a drop out because of your "backup plan". It is easier to get a good job through a degree. And getting a degree is not hard if you put your mind to it.
mint citrus
degree does not guarantee a job tho
hardy ferry
It's still the safest route of obtaining a job. Other routes are not available to everyone (best friend of my father is CEO of some company; naturally gifted at communicating + logical thinking; etc...).
shadow sky
Lots of university professors harbor projects that they allow students to aid with, I worked on a couple and used those as my portfolio to land my first few real jobs and I'm still in college
slim island
university degrees are less and less required to land a job
the industry is recognizing that the education industry is not very effective when it comes to tech
someone with a CS degree and nothing else is a much weaker candidate than someone with no degree but a popular-ish project on github
having said that, if you lack CS fundamentals like algorithms and data structures, you basically have no hope
torpid bolt
…for these big company jobs, a lot of programming jobs, especially in python, don't require any of this knowledge
though it's usual to have big 0 notation questions in interviews, so it's nice to know about it, but it's not a showstopper in a lot of places if you don't
slim island
depends if you want an A-C tier job or a Z tier job
if you lack CS fundamentals your career growth will on average be a lot slower than if you don't
knowing random big O notation doesn't mean much but knowing what general approach to take for what class of problem comes from the same knowledge base and is very valuable
rare sand
I don't think that's universally true. it's probably true some places.
slim island
even in large enterprise, you can get by just fine without cs fundamentals these days if you know sql or whatever
but if you know CS fundamentals you'll be perceived as a 10x engineer
rare sand
I mean yes it's probably very valuable information and everyone should probably attain that kind of information - but saying that you have no hope without it or that you can only get "z jobs" is hyperbolic.
hardy briar
please, what are the CS fundamentals?
slim island
algorithms and data structures basically
it's simple stuff like understanding how OLTP database indexing works under the hood, which allows you to decide how to structure and index the data for optimal perf
hardy briar
i'm on my way to learn (by myself) and strugglin a little with the organizational part of my code
slim island
very recent relevant anecdote i had a 'tech lead' with no CS background build a garbage solution that broke on day 1 of actual client use. And then I watched an undergrad vacationer student who did have a CS background figure out that the indexing was wrong and fix it. In 3 years time that undergrad will surpass this tech lead with 6+ years of experience
the main difference between them? The undergrad understands b-trees
hardy briar
b-trees = binary trees?
slim island
not quite
slim island
b-tree is also not the only indexing structure in modern databases. Understanding these structures even at a really high level is a huge advantage to getting the most out of them
slim island
informally i've been messing around with this stuff since i was 11 years old and got my first computer
formally since uni I guess
hardy briar
that's nice
i had no luck in having a computer early
and when i had my first, i pretty much played games
wow and pangya
i regret a lot
slim island
eh its fine
point is, tertiary education carries less and less value these days
if you can demonstrate mastery of relevant skills that's all it takes
hardy briar
but i always liked software developing, i mean, the idea, because i still know nothing about
marsh wind
if
hardy briar
hahaha
marsh wind
thats important
slim island
one of the best hires we made at our last startup was a dude who didn't even finish high school, but his low level programming mind was something else
mild pilot
What would you say the best way to learn the relevant skills is
hardy briar
do you have a startupp?
slim island
I did, it ran out of money now
hardy briar
what was the product/service based on?
slim island
@mild pilot do specific projects
@hardy briar it was a big data analytics and visualisation platform. We got an investment offer but it was smaller than we thought we need to succeed so we put it on ice
hardy briar
was not a good idea, selling a smaller part of business, invest > create value to idea > create results and then revaluate on higher price for more investments?
if the idea is cool, you will always find investment
if your salesman has a good pitch, you have gold
marsh wind
I think it is little more complex than that
slim island
it was confounded by being in aus and not SV. The investment market is a lot more conservative here
hardy briar
i really don't understand this tech lingoo yet
but, you'll figure it out, you started, that's the hardest part
slim island
i'm fulltime employed atm and the starup is on ice. The employer is flirting with buying it for decent cash
hardy briar
take what you can from the idea and sell it
i guess you can "pivot" the actual structure in something else
that is one thing i get pretty annoyed, there are lot of ideas, a lot of people willing to do something great, but usually all the knowledge that we need for specific area, we don't know
slim island
anyway coming back to the original point. When hiring if I had to choose between a generic CS grad and someone with no tertiary education who walked me through how b-trees and quadtrees work, #2 would get the job 100% of the time
hardy briar
i mean, i'm not even on CS, i'm doing a bachelor on Foreign Trade, i know the problems i could solve in this area
but idk how
and idk people willing to do a project
i'm hardcore learning programming lately
bcause i know it will pay out
always loved the area
hardy ferry
The average joe doesn't have a brilliant mind. That's why I generally recommend getting a degree.
hardy briar
the average joe
best thing i heard today
"heard"
but that's a point
usually the great idea is in the hand of the average joe, a problem that he iterates daily
gets anoyed by nobody solving it
and not having the idea to do it
slim island
if you want to be an average Joe maybe getting an average degree and having an average career is the best choice
i don't have much useful advice for that demographic
hardy briar
nobody wants to get stuck in the average joe
slim island
but where i work people like that don't pass the hiring filter
hardy briar
got it
but i guess i passed the wrong point, the guy who has the million dollar idea, is the guy who face a basic problem daily, and by being part of that demographic how you said yourself, millions of another regular joes and marys has that same problem, and would buy the idea
hardy ferry
You are viewing it from the employer perspective. You want to get the best of the best. And that's fine.
However someone who is seeking a career in IT needs a more stable path. A lot of them are day dreamers and think they will work with computerz because they ran bots in some MMO games.
slim island
the problem with hiring atm is that the distribution is very long-tailed. I'd say 80% of applicants are identical-looking average joes with no way for us to discriminate who is better than who
so we just drop that 80% and go for the 20% long tail of people who stand out, like all other big employers
hardy briar
i'm not talking about capacity and experience of the programmer, just about how to get a good startup idea
to pivot a business that has potential
you working on a big company right now?
slim island
the place i currently work at has 210k employees
the last place i worked at had 30
any grads who ask for advice i suggest they go for startups and small companies. The prospects to grow and the breadth of experience you can get is much much higher
hardy briar
that's nice advice
what is your "deal", what you do best? in which are you have the most experience?
hardy ferry
Consulting companies are nice too. Pay is bad but you get into a lot of different projects and learn a lot. You are sold to different companies. After 2-3 years you can do the jump
slim island
the best? combine tech expertise with soft people skills
hardy briar
define soft people skills please
slim island
@hardy ferry currently working for a consultancy, pay is well above market
hardy briar
consulting is always overpriced
the more specific the problem, the higher is the pay
slim island
soft skills is having a good relationship with the client and the team
and being able to turn verbal problem descriptions into technical maps of how to solve said problems
hardy briar
that is nice, i mean, it's pretty fundamental
hardy ferry
When you start at a consulting company you don't earn much. You earn less than a software engineer directly employed at the company. Different story if you have years of experience.
marsh wind
I think there are different kind of consultancies (on different scale and in different countries)
hardy briar
that's gold, knowing how to solve problems with a plan and keep the team united is good
slim island
if you want to max cash, go work for startups for 2-4 years and boost your job title and then join a consultancy with equivalent title. You will find that you're 5ish years younger than your peers with equivalent title who are 'lifers' at said consultancy
that's what I did
hardy briar
@slim island with your experience in this field, what do i need to know to be "ready" to work with simple projects?
what languages, included
slim island
entirely depends on your field of interest
you should build a side project end to end
hardy briar
i'm pretty much studying basic front end (html + css) and python
slim island
bonus points if its something useful to the general public and gets stars on github
hardy briar
primarily python
i really want to work with programming, i know i have to study a lot, because i don't understand the basics of much areas yet, but going on
do you have any tips and/or books to recommend? for learning the basics?
usually in everything i do or study, i'm worried about understanding 110% the basic
slim island
i'm pretty sure there's a resources section on this discord with a ton of books and stuff
hardy briar
because the advanced is just tons of basic code
slim island
but my 5c is just pick a goal for a project and research everything you need to achieve it along the way
also if you limit yourself to python, be aware of what it's good at and not
it's great for ML and webdev stuff
hardy briar
i'm starting with python basically
but i'm not closed to it
i understand the basic about knowing other languages, python does not cover it all
slim island
the beauty of algorithms+data structures is it doesn't care what language you use
it's fundamentally at a lower level
hardy ferry
I would create a full stack application and learn a bit of everything. Domains, VPS, services, logging, automated tests, git/svn, backend (Python), frontend (Angular is pretty dominant). And then deepen your knowledge in whatever interests you most.
Your employer may ask about your project and then you can showcase what you've learned.
slim island
isn't angular dead
hardy briar
i still don't get it on how git works
hardy ferry
React then. Angular is still very dominant at my projects because it's been around so long
slim island
framework
open patio
it's javascript
hardy ferry
react, vue and angular are web frameworks.
slim island
it's the most popular front end framework
hardy briar
like django?
slim island
django is a backend framework
hardy ferry
django is more like a web server. It serves the data. While angular, vue, react is more about displaying the data.
mild pilot
Can you recommend any projects to learn Django
slim island
eli5:
django will map database records to json objects and send them to the browser. React will render them as your shiny web app
hardy ferry
you can still do databinding with python web frameworks but I don't really recommend it
hardy briar
i still don't get how to do basics in django, is an goal to me, i have 3 main goals in programming
open patio
a blog @mild pilot
hardy ferry
but this is no longer #career-advice
hardy briar
the first is django,
the second is machine learning, and the third is databases
hardy briar
the order is not for learning
is for using
you cannot get into an bulding if you don't build it's foundation
hahaha
i want to work with web apps primarily
using some ML
hardy ferry
machine learning is such a huge buzz word. If you want to go down that road it really has to be your passion.
hardy briar
i like the possibilities, you know?
ml is pretty wide
neural nets may be used for almost anything
hardy ferry
There is so much more to it. It is not trivial. You will have to invest a lot of your own free time into it to become good at it.
slim island
ML is not as shiny as you think it is
and at this point if you don't have at least a masters or phd, you're not going to be considered
it's a saturated space
i come from that space
shut geyser
A master or PhD in a relevant field right ?
slim island
in ML
ML is so saturated that even the primary school educated concierge guy in my apt building was asking how to 'learn ML' a year ago
shut geyser
There is lot of Data Scientist that comes from Physic/Math/Stat and even Clinical Psychology no ?
slim island
5 years ago yes. Now no
data science has become a pretty narrow vertical
as has data engineering
shut geyser
Ah must depends on countries, at conference i rarely see speakers from CS
hardy ferry
First step many people fail at it is obtaining sensible data in the range of tens of thousands and more with which you can train your neural network.
How do you go about obtaining that data. It isn't just about feeding in pictures. You still have to do some pre-processing. E.g. you are building a camera system that can detect people and plastic. You have an image feed, a depth information from RADAR technology. How do you combine these two sets of information into one layer? The image has way too much information not relevant. You will have to do edge detection and the list goes on. Then you finally have relevant and sensible data to feed into your neural network.
slim island
most ML practitioners come from stats background not CS
most data engineering practitioners come from CS
hardy briar
i have good stats knowledge
slim island
explain bayes vs frequentist like i'm five
shut geyser
A lot of fields use stats extensively (like clinical psychology)
hardy ferry
There are countless way of obtaining data. And a good chunk of people who are working for machine learning are all about gathering data and processing it in a form that it easier for the neural network to learn.
slim island
@shut geyser clinical psychology along with most of the rest of med is currently being flipped upside down by computational analytics
psychology and other pseudoscience in particular
because for the first time they've come into contact with actual evidence-based data
hardy ferry
I laugh when I hear startups brag about their project using ML technology. It is just buzz words and a key indicator for investors to not invest.
craggy wave
psychology and other pseudoscience in particular
because for the first time they've come into contact with actual evidence-based data
This is so wrong.
shut geyser
Yeah lol
craggy wave
As someone with a background in statistics, mathematics, and cognitive neuroscience, I can safely say that this view of psychology is based soley on misconceptions and biases of what "science" is
shut geyser
What do you think SPSS stands for
hardy briar
the biggest comparison is : in psychology the books they read are based on samples of 100 people
200 people
slim island
how much of a background do you have in neuroscience
slim island
because that's what i'm doing atm
craggy wave
A research master's degree from Leiden University
and some research experience, but I moved on to statistics after that
slim island
and i still constantly come across shit like 'brain chemistry' explanations on depression
if you want to argue that's not pseudoscience i'll take you on, pick a channel
hardy briar
is not depression chemical guided?
shut geyser
Because psychiatrist pushed it hard to sell pills tbh
If there is a clear chemical target, there is a drug for it
hardy briar
the pharma industry is savage indeed
shut geyser
Please buy my serotonin inhibitors pls
hardy briar
i want serotonin fuel pls
slim island
the brain chemistry argument was brought about by the company that first got SSRI approved for clinical use, I forget the name. The study was later completely debunked but SSRI remained in use until today
shut geyser
It's a complicated subject, it's also part psychiatrist fault
hardy briar
what is your point on depression
shut geyser
But that doesn't make neuroscience a scam
hardy ferry
Keep it #career-advice relevant
slim island
neuroscience is the anti-scam. Psychology is the pseudoscience
shut geyser
I mean, pharma fuck up every year nobody is saying that pharmacology is a pseudoscience
craggy wave
Using something like that to disqualify an entire field that encompasses much more than just clinical psychology or psychiatry is not exactly the hallmark of critical thinking. Whether you think you can "take me on" in the matter hardly matters in the subject of the validity of the general field of psychology, cognitive sciences, and/or neuroscience in general. Anyway, this is really off-topic for now, but I think you're arguing from an extreme point of bias in disqualifying an entire field worth of very capable scientists working with the tools they have at their disposal. It tells me more about you than the field.
slim island
do you wanna DM or move to OT?
hardy briar
don't get mad @craggy wave, everybody got an strong point on something, our vision can always change based on facts
craggy wave
Neither. I'm at work.
@hardy briar It's just that this point is made over and over again in a dismissive way that disqualifies the work of many people who've put a lot of effort and time into it.
hardy briar
you are pretty experienced in your field, that's cool, but everybody has bias
on something, beliefs generally
i mean, i like a lot the idea of biohacking and how to merge it on programming
internalwearable stuff
shut geyser
That have nothing to do with the discussion thou
hardy briar
yes
true, drop it
sorry fellows
but, going back on the actual subject
how many years you guys work with software? and what are your degrees?
just to be aware
as a newbie, idk much about what fields i could get engaged, all i have is the desire to learn
hardy ferry
If you want to become a software engineer understanding the entire stack how the different moving pieces are working together will help you a lot in your career. https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/470889390588035082/656477636276649994
You can use that to then specialize in whatever field interests you most. Pick a long term project goal and commit to it. You can have smaller projects on the side to aid you so you have a better understanding.
hardy briar
i noted that on a notepad when u send it
thanks for that, the idea is "self explanatory"
and my past projects (not related to programming), that's what i made and learn from that, it's very good example
craggy wave
@hardy briar Programming is only a tool for me; I'm not really a software developer. I work on developing statistical models (models that are mostly used in the field of psychology/behavioral science/social science). I'm currently working on a hybrid evolutionary algorithm for a certain model.
hardy briar
wow, that's really something nice
advanced as f***
i like the field, but i can't see myself working with
but that's nice
humble shore
Could someone tell me if any of my GitHub projects would be appealing to an employer? I’m trying to build a portfolio but I’ve only recently started uploading things to GitHub. My best projects would be open-supreme and proxy-tester: https://www.github.com/1fge
shadow moss
Bad code on GitHub is generally better then no code on GitHub
humble shore
I guess, but I want to look as good of a candidate as I can be for an employer. I’d like to know where I stand with things
lament storm
@humble shore one of my basic projects
shadow moss
nested, I doubt your code on github will sink you
humble shore
Well it’s not that it will sink me or make me look bad, I want it to be a reason that people want to hire me.
If I thought it was shit I wouldn’t upload it honestly lol.
I’m just hoping it’s subpar
shadow moss
my point is, you are worrying too much about it
resume is very important
cover letter is important
because Step 1 is "Get past the recruiter"
and recruiter could care less about Github
because likely, no one is oging to look at your github until step 3 or 4
humble shore
Right. I don’t have either of those made at the moment lol. I’m not actively seeking employment but I need to be ready for it. The plan is to get a 4 year cs degree but like I mentioned earlier I’d want a backup in case things go south. I appreciate your advice though
shadow moss
are you American?
humble shore
Yeah
shadow moss
Here is my unsolicited advice from someone who went to school without a smartphone (to age myself)
you sound hestitant about this school thing
don't go to school, rack up a bunch of debt and end up with nothing
hit your local Community College and start AS in Computer Science
if you do well, you can always transfer into 4 year school and no one will care about your AS
if not, you haven't blown a ton of money
humble shore
I’m looking to go to a state college that has an excellent cs degree but they’re kind of competitive. I’m only thinking about alternatives as I haven’t been accepted yet.
I tried college last fall but had a lot of problems but things are going well right now and I think it’s a good opportunity.
I would love to get started working as a dev as soon as possible if school isn’t an option though. I feel I have a lot to offer with python right now, but I know the advantages of a 4 year
shadow moss
yea, I think CC would be better option but you do you
vapid jay
Unless a cover letter is required I leave it blank
Usually when they're required they also tend to ask a bunch of personality questions too
marsh wind
@vapid jay why? Don't you think it can help in some situations? Especially for someone with little to no experience
Not big a4 motivation, but few paragraphs maybe?
vapid jay
Dependson the place probably
shy quail
Hello, folks! Can someone review my cv and give some feedbacks on how to improve it?
marsh wind
At least that's what I heard. Idk I have yet to secure positon in industry
torpid bolt
i would strongly encourage to write cover letters for each company you apply for, unless you know you don't need to, because they are coming for you anyway, if you are looking for a job, it can't hurt, and can help a lot.
marsh wind
Hey guys. got a career question: I am having phone/skype interview tomorrow with AI department guy at one company. The recruiter who called me today to organize it said that the company needs to fill the position urgently before Xmas. Do you think it will look fine if I will wonder why such urgency?
or better to hold on such kind of questions until later stages?
torpid bolt
recruiters are always in a hurry, they want their bonus 😛
if they want someone to fix their website before christmas, it's a bit late to recruit
but if they are trying to have someone to start projects in january, well, that might be more realistic
but i think it's a good idea to ask more about their needs, what they expect of you, etc
mint citrus
I want my bonus.
torpid bolt
ask your manager?
mint citrus
sounds like a bad idea lol
she complaining about how late things are but really its her fault its so late (changing reqs and adding new things)
marsh wind
if they want someone to fix their website before christmas, it's a bit late to recruit
lol, not the case 🙂 it is for AI deparment
so definitely not website thingy
recruiters are always in a hurry,
maybe, I never had interview set up in such short terms aftter I actully applied
torpid bolt
@mint citrus that's certainly worth discussing, you want to make sure the priorities don't shift, and the set objectives are not moving goals, it's not always easy, and she might be taking pressure from upper, but whever that's the case or not, if you want to improve, you need to give constructive, actionable feedback. Of course, asking for the bonus at the same time might not be easy, but if you think you did good work, you should be able to make a case for it, she might have counter arguments, but you can again try to come back to facts and defend your position.
marsh wind
like lightning fast
torpid bolt
@marsh wind if there is demand, and in a lot of places there is, they don't want to miss potential candidates, so good for them to come back fast.
marsh wind
anyway,
but if they are trying to have someone to start projects in january, well, that might be more realistic
but i think it's a good idea to ask more about their needs, what they expect of you, etc
I think this answers my initial question - I will try to approach it gently but defo would want to ask
could be, position posted 1 week ago, 160 applicants before me and rectruiter calls me in 25m after I applied
mint citrus
well I just started this job this year so prob too early lol
and I havent completed a project yet. Im currently not in a proper software developer environment. (ill be the one who will change it into one)
I already have documentation on things they need to change. security being top of the list. its seriously cringe here
shut geyser
We have password in clear on a file called password.txt here and also contact info on all our client users in excel files available for the whole company network
naive kraken
Hey there,
So I am currently 15 and a sophomore in high school, and am quite interested (who am i kidding im obsessed) in pursuing programming as a career but I am not sure if I am interested in the traditional college path or not. I have just over a year and half of experience in programming with most of that being Python but I have started learning C in the past 5 months as well, just to have a lower level language under my belt. I have some experience with Machine Learning but am still confused by it, but it fascinates me the most. I also enjoy solving math problems with programming such as project euler, but past the first 10 problems I am comletely stuck. I guess my question is how much more difficult is it to get a good job in programming or InfoSec (i have experience with Information Security as well, I am currently training for network+ and security+ exams)? Thanks!
Tl;dr: can i get a good career in ML/InfoSec being completely self taught? thank you!
Please DM me i have this server muted because of its population
vapid jay
When you're younger, you want to dive in to a little bit of everything. That's understandable, but won't get you far down any career path. There's specialists and generalists, the latter go in to careers as business execs. You are likely interested in ML because of the current buzz, but applied statistics has been around a while. If you can be a good programmer, you can always pick up ML later as your education progresses to teach you fundamentals that build on stats and related topics. So for the time being, focus on learning programming, but keep reading up on where you can apply your skills so you can chart your career later. As for whether you're interested in college or not, that comes with talking to people in your country/region who went down those roads, then you can decide what's best for you based on the opportunities available to you. @naive kraken
I interviewed this one guy recently.. well-meaning junior guy, had some experience in a bunch of languages, but mostly web development. But sadly, the position he was interviewing for required knowledge of docker, cloud networking and message queues.. another person on my team asked him some questions then he got nervous and started to try and bs (big mistake).. but the bigger mistake that he won't learn from is not specializing in one or two language early in his career..
mint citrus
but is it really important to specialize in a language?
im constantly writing stuff in another language at my jobs.
my last job was nodejs, and javascript/css/html and also some ruby
now im doing nodejs, php, and dart/flutter
and before those two i was doing php, node, and golang
hardy ferry
At my company the entry level positions are all taught while on the job. It is a bonus if you are familiar with the different technologies but people understand that a fresh graduate doesn't have the extensive experience so what is being used is being slowly taught.
Some fundamentals like having the idea how to program is expected but if you have to learn an unfamiliar language it is alright if you are struggling. After a few months if you are still struggling you switch projects or are let go. The interviewing process is not complicated. They rather try out then invest into an extensive interviewing process.
vapid jay
really depends on the role.. for smaller development teams, it's nice to have someone familiar with the language we use for development of a product or platform.. in supporting roles for larger project teams, everyone contributes differently and independently chooses what to build on
naive kraken
@vapid jay im so sorry i missed your response, ive been writing a ton, drank too much coffee. I don't want to sound narcissistic, but id like to think im a decent programmer. I have noticed changes in my thinking around problem solving and those changes have been extremely beneficial to my programming career. For example i used to write a function like this:
def add_to_numbers():
return 1 + 2
vs.
def add_to_numbers_better(x, y):
return x + y
i know its an extremely simple problem, that maybe makes a seconds difference, but it adds up the longer the code gets
mint citrus
it gets waaaaayy more complicated than that later @naive kraken
naive kraken
like i said I know its an extremely simple problem, I wrote a stock predicter a while back with sklearn and PyQt5 and instead of writing a for loop that put in the possible dates you could choose i hard coded all 40 years
when i wrote the 2nd version i was able to save 300+ lines of code with a for loop, granted this was a while back and i think ive learned a bit since then, but sitll
yep 759 lines down to 414
hardy ferry
https://github.com/AceLewis/my_first_calculator.py/blob/master/my_first_calculator.py
2k stars for hardcoding
semi relevant sorry. Had to plug that in
mint citrus
later on its mostly about the concepts and not really as much as how you style your code
I mean, if he wrote that in assembly it would be worth the stars
naive kraken
yeah ive been trying to get into that recently, thinking broader, i was using the adding numbers function as an example, i am trying to follow concepts that help you write more efficient, neat and easier to read code along with better comments. I've learned the hard way that visiting a project a year later thats only comment is #fix me is not fun
mint citrus
I should comment my code more often
only time I comment is if its something thats overly complicated
naive kraken
it pays in the long run
mint citrus
I did like jsdoc before but we never ever looked at it
naive kraken
not even because you want to know how the spaghet code from 5 months ago works, just because its a good habit
mint citrus
meh the tests usually tell me whats supposed to happen. those are fairly descriptive
naive kraken
true, but it also helps if you plan on releasing something open source and someone newer to programming reads it and it has comments
mint citrus
I make separate docs in markdown for the whole system that gives an overview
well code at my work wont ever get open sourced heh
naive kraken
ah ok, as long as theres some sort of reference, theyll be fine
mint citrus
you will notice in real life, code isnt documented as much as one would think
naive kraken
yeah ive heard, ive also heard that it's a nightmare, so i want to get into the good habit now
mint citrus
I usually generate a lot of documentation before I even write code
naive kraken
i do the same thing with my lexer/parsers, i write a lot of my "language" before i even start coding
just as a guide kinda yknow?
hardy ferry
Depends who you are working for. If the project follows a lot of regulations you will abide by them and have a more structured approach. These kind of projects are also more expensive.
gilded valley
Does anyone here have experience in (preferably UK or EU) in finance or consulting? I'd love to ask you some questions, preferably over DM
hushed kestrel
What sort of questions do you have? General consulting questions are the same the world over
@little prairie 1) You make no money unless you work on projects worth more than 5k because a greater portion of your time is interacting with the client instead of the work.
(It takes 2.5 hours MINIMUM per job to talk to your client.) (1 hour intro, 1 hour to complete. 2-6 follow up emails)
People who are comfortable spending 5k on fiverr aren't going to hire new people and risk that sort of money. So for the platform you are going to compete against people who've been doing it for years.
A lot of your cheap competition that are going to undercut you are based oversees who are willing to work for 5-15$ an hour.
As a hardware engineer I was making around 1,000/ month for my first month, optimized I can imagine 3000-3500? But those were 60 hour+ weeks. So it was $14.50/h or less.
The only real benefit to fiverr is that it is a great low stakes way to interact with tons an tons of clients for that dank public facing position. You learn so much about client management and mitigating expectations and delivering what people want. If you want to bow out of a project you just email your client and say "This is too much bs, I'm donzo." Your profile might take a hit, but since we already agree you aren't really doing this for the money, it's fine.
The actual way to make money is actually to call up local businesses and offer your service. Detail what you can do for them and offer competitive pricing. In the US you can do a 'DBA' (Do business as yourname). You setup a payment schedule with penalties if they don't pay, and you do the work.
glad flume
Huh! That's super interesting. Thanks for the insight!!
hushed kestrel
To be successful starting out, you need to make at minimum 4-5k /m (don't forget you're going to pay any taxes.)
Starting out your hour rate should at minimum be your salary $/h + 50% or more for overhead (You are paying rent and other shit.) If you are a professional consultant you charge typically at minimum MINIMUM 90$/h, but this is a career change and you need clients so it is fine charging less
mild zenith
Cost of living can make that initial monthly figure fluctuate a bit
Where I live you could likely get away with 3kish
hushed kestrel
As you accrue more clients who are willing to pay more, you can reject small shit jobs and you slowly increase your pay schedule.
and advantage for working in IT is that you get to offer 'continued support' packages that make them pay on a continue schedule which can 'build up' over time
but there are downsides where if something gets fucked, your schedule gets entirely fucked with
I pay 1800 $/m rent
So
3x that for me
glad flume
Jesus, same
hushed kestrel
To get into fiverr or any other consulting, you really need to be ontop of your time management + project scoping skills
If you can't accurately place the time on projects and underbid, you are going to get f$%$ed so hard.
little prairie
Very insightful, how long does it usually take to get your first job on Fiverr or Upwork?
hushed kestrel
A great rule of thumb is that if you've done EVERY STEP of the work the client is requesting before, you add up the expected time to complete, double it, and say that is how long it'll take to complete
glad flume
Holy shit, this is so valuable for me. Thanks so much for answering that guy's question like that.
hushed kestrel
Here are some baseline modifiers for estimating steps
If you've done it before a lot x2
if you've done it once x4
if you know there is a solution x8
if you don't know if there is a solution x16
On upwork you bid jobs and you can get ahead by immediately responding to job posters (It's heavily favored based on response time vs profile, because you're working on the person's schedule who posted the job. It's really easy to post a job then immediately talk to someone who is qualified than it is to post a job, wait 10 hours, then talk to someone
So you can pickup small work within 2-4 days after some account setup nonsense
(I don't know how fiverr works in terms of being a freelancer. If people have to find you through your profile, you're kinda screwed)
rigid spruce
you're talking big numbers but I was under impression that getting into freelance is very hard simply because of no reputation when you start. So for example on fiver who's gonna even see your profile among hundred of others
hushed kestrel
If they have to find you, you're screwed
On upwork you bid for jobs
It's pretty easy to find jobs like webscraping, simple automation tools like automate excel sheets/reporting
Stuff that doesn't require a 4 year degree to do
But those jobs are going to be worth like, 70-150 a piece
Maybe 300 if you get someone who has any money to spend
There is a pretty big divide between people who are running a small business who needs to outsource some work vs people who just want some work done for them
If a project runs over (It's somewhat typical, but never good of course) you'll get different push back on price and who is responsible for the extra work.
Sometimes clients will ask for more than the original scope and you have to be very firm/explicit for what they are asking and what the price comes along with it, and justify why you are charging 300$ for a single feature that seems on the surface easy to implement when you are halfway through a project that will require you to rip up a lot of your code
The complexity of a project per feature grows at like, n^2 or n^3
Or maybe N! if they are interacting
hardy ferry
Consulting firms are very different from one another.
Some consulting firms do limited and timed work. Other continuously sell their service and act almost like normal employees. Some consulting firms are heavily specialized while others are very general. Some firms bring in a lot of knowledge while others are more like a place where you can gather experience.
hushed kestrel
This is independent consulting which is an entirely different business than consulting firms IMHO
hardy ferry
To do independent consulting you have to have years of experience. You have to be somewhat known in the industry.
hushed kestrel
They deal with completely different clients with very different needs
That's not true
Not true at all
hardy ferry
How come? I don't see how you can break into that industry that easily. I know some who became independent but I know noone who went straight independent.