does anyone want an invite for vmock
#career-advice
vapid jay
vapid jay
I have a question for native English speakers..
I have a section in my resume highlighting projects and competitions I won during university..
but it seems kinda repetitive, because there's three bullet points for three different competitions and they all start like:
Placed 1st in
Placed 3rd in
Placed 2nd in
is there a different way of writing this?
hushed kestrel
Awarded 1st place in "the competition" for " something"
Awarded 1st place in "the competition" for " something"
Awarded 3st place in "the competition" for " something"
Awarded 2st place in "the competition" for " something"
'Awarded' is much better than 'placed' btw, as it says you were worthy of an award (which you are)
and it's fine for you be repetitive
Just as long as the competitions aren't like "Awarded first place in my class room spelling bee"
vapid jay
it's more like.. Placed 1st in xx (country) in yy(company name) (zz competition).
so not sure how to change that with Awarded
hushed kestrel
Awarded 1st place prize in "competition name" for "project name or description"
If the country name is relevant you can use it
"Placed 1st in canada national mathathon "
vapid jay
maybe I could just share the points?.. I'm having a hard time rephrasing them
gilded valley
That doesn't solve the problem Tron mentioned of repetitiveness, and awarded isn't inherently better than placed
vapid jay
oh cool.. I should mention the years like so.. didn't occur to me
hushed kestrel
likely the recruiter wont know anything about the coding challenged or who sponsored it or even anything about the project you worked on.
So the sticker price is what place you got which you need to list absolutely up front
Because you participated in a variety of competitions that you are listing as your accomplishments, it would be strange to treat them as separate topics with separate formatting
What you are aiming for is readability given the average time someone looks at your resume is like, 6 seconds
As long as your competitions are grouped together it makes it easier
gilded valley
I mean. One option is to condense it into a single bullet point. Vertical space is valuable, and you spend a lot of it with the list
hushed kestrel
Something you could add if it is relevant is say
Placed first out of 600 competitors or something
I totally agree vertical space is valuable. I would not list the projects unless it was relevant to the work you are trying to do
vapid jay
I'll use this if I have the space.. I think I will..
eventually with more experience, I'll be able to condense and one day leave them out entirely
hushed kestrel
If you need to fill space, list the projects
But if you have any work experience , condensing is important. Keep it one page
vapid jay
well I have a job.. just don't like the environment.. they value business people over developers and that's never a good sign
at my previous workplace it was the opposite.. they had their head right
vapid jay
What does that even mean
That's what most companies value because it's what makes them money
Developers a lot of the time overvalue the necessary code quality
Unless there's requirements through law or specifications
velvet drum
@vapid jay All businesses value money. Period. Moreover, sales and marketing are valued as well. And then comes the code. That's how it works.
and if they do that it's a good sign, because then the money trickles down to you 😛
vapid jay
That's one way to put it
But I'm talking more about businesses that value their product and the means for generating revenue.. instead of the personnel they need to sell their product
Any product or service that's well built doesn't need slick salesmen.. any business that values those sorta people probably doesn't have a conducive environment for proper development
velvet drum
You say that, to a certain extent that is true. But it's all about sales people...
You can have all this cool tech, but if you don't have anyone to speak for it and to show it to potential clients/customers....Word of mouth can only go so far if your product costs $10 a month. But if it costs $100s of thousands...that doesn't work.
loud marsh
What jobs are the most ''fun'' in computer science? Or most well paid , best quality of life etc.. Developper basically?
velvet drum
yeah devs have it good
data science/analytics
just depends on the workplace honestly
loud marsh
Can I Private message you real quick? got a question for you actually, want your opinion
velvet drum
sure
loud marsh
ty sent @velvet drum
burnt tiger
@loud marsh
What jobs are the most ''fun'' in computer science? Or most well paid , best quality of life etc.. Developper basically?
Unfortunately, nobody other than yourself can provide an accurate answer to that question. It's going to require a significant amount of research into the different CS-related professional roles and working on many personal projects to determine what areas interest you the most.
Even "developer" is a rather broad category. There are many different types of developers, that specialize in their own unique areas. You can rather easily determine which jobs are the most in demand and highest paying in any given area, but that won't tell you what you'll personally find the most enjoyable. IMO, that's the most important part for quality of life.
simple ermine
Hey, I need some help!
I'm 25 and confused on what I really like, this is with respect to work.
I work as a wed-dev in an MNC, I hate working 9 to 5.
But unfortunately, I'm unable to get out of my comfort zone.
Is this normal?
gilded valley
What do you mean by "unable to get out of my comfort zone"?
simple ermine
@gilded valley My office is pretty chill. All I do is work on my tasks. Everything is slow and believe I'm lacking innovation.
I wanted to be the guy who can slog for long hours and wanted to see myself in forbes under 30 someday
The crowd around me is lazy and cozy
velvet drum
@simple ermine go around the company, look for something u're interested in and ask if you can help
split herald
Long post, many questions regarding AI, BI analyst, EHR consulting, PMP
Background: Bsc in Radiology, currently working as mri/ct tech. User experience in ehr software. Slowly learning Python on Coursera. Learning some R, SPSS currently in coursework for Master in health informatics. Located in the states, hcol area, if it matters.
My current question: What area of focus (specialty or direction) should I focus on?
A little more about my intentions: interested in freelancing/digital nomad type, most likely as an EPIC consultant (after hands on experience) or BI analyst in Healthcare. I will be taking courses that will involve Python, sql, sas, spss and the likes.
Bigger goal here: Artificial intelligence in Radiology or just AI in healthcare. Have been told to focus on Python for AI with my Radiology exp, I can make $100K in less than 5 years? However, according to ACR DSI, seems like Radiologist can work AI themselves in the near-future? Anyone working on AI in healthcare validate this? Also, not great in Calculus or stats in particular hence leaning to BI analyst work or epic consultant work.
Alternative goal: Project management(PMP) in healthcare. Interested but have no experience with it. Also, have thought about Cybersecurity but after reading a ton of CS reddit posts and news, I am turned off by it and I have no IT background.
So anyone that’s working in Healthcare as a BI analyst, AI (DL, ML) engineer, PMP, CyberSecurity, or EPIC consultant, please let me know what you think? It would be great if you mentioned your experience and where your field is heading in the future.
Just many options and in need of some professional opinions.
Thank you for reading.
First time on discord
indigo sleet
Mooom, someone wrote an email in my messenger :>
Alright, seriously though
I'm not working in those fields, but it's worth taking note of the fact that programming as a field has a lot of overlap
Isolating the specific technologies you want to work with (tensorflow for example) is fine, but remember to generalise just a little so you understand how to fit those technologies into larger systems
viral ridge
Does it make sense that cloud architects make less than sft engineers in US?
dire cedar
@split herald I work in healthcare with python. I don't do any AI but you comment about Radiologists doing AI "themselves" is not going to be a high number of ppl. Those that do will switch over to IT and rarely practice medicine any more. I also agree with gdude in that specifics are cool because the give you direction but don't let opportunities pass you by. Everything matters, especially in healthcare. The more you know, the more desirable you are.
vapid jay
@vapid jay Developers a lot of the time overvalue the necessary code quality ?
What does that even mean? I would hope the company would value code quality too. Otherwise you get breaches like in breathes in Equifax, Experian, Dropbox, Neteller, Badoo, Adobe, MySpace, Domino's, LinkedIn, Forbes, Elance, and Patreon just to name a few.
vast shoal
Well, there's truth to both sides. Overvaluing business people can to a company's detriment, but developers losing perspective of the business side and getting tunnel vision with regards to code quality is also a thing that happens.
As with most things, it's about striking the right balance.
vapid jay
Sure, makes sense
Me reading this while figuring out what a string is
^ Not actually but jokes aside, im a beginner in python who has been introduced to programming and of course understand it and such for years now (but only recently started taking programming serious). Im 17 and have interest in cybersecurity. I took a udemy course on cybersecurity that taught general stuff about kali linux and related material, hacking, and securing shit. I took an AP cs course in school and my grade for that for the year was like 99%. Rn i just learn python online in free time. Im going to be applying to college for cybersecurity soon. What should I learn about cybersecurity before going so i have a jumpstart? What does my future career hold for me? What should i be doing now to prepare myself.
Oh yeah and i also understand a bit a out reverse engineering but dont know how to reverse engineer anything if that makes sense.
vast shoal
@vapid jay I'm by no means an expert, but studying online courses probably can't hurt. You could also look into playing CTFs.
If you learn what you need to solve those kinds of problems, you should have a pretty good foundation to stand on.
And it's fun.
vapid jay
( We also have resources! )
inner wrenBOT
hardy ferry
@vapid jay
Cybersecurity degree sounds nice on paper but it isn't really "respected" as the other computer science degrees.
It's an "easier" degree to obtain but you won't become a cybersecurity expert due to the degree. You won't be finding new exploits. In order to find new exploits you need to be very familiar with the systems/libraries/??? you are working with. You need to have a deep understanding of the underlying tech.
A degree is worth more than no degree. And it is still a computer science related degree so that's a bonus. Just bear in mind that there are people having trouble finding a job even with a cybersecurity degree due to their lack of experience. Though maybe it is a regional thing. Where I am from the cybersecurity degree is so easy to obtain in comparison to the computer science degree that the employers prefer computer science graduates over cybersecurity graduates.
Reason being: a) they won't be working in cybersecurity b) they don't have deep knowledge about computer architecture or more handson experience in programming.
You have good chances if you are programming in your spare time, have some projects on GitHub and have a personal website. Too many rely on the degree only and are then struggling finding work. It's good that you are now already learning Python. 🙂
ember flower
For most of the compagnies cybersecurity is not worth enough to hire experts, it’s just another task to their developpers.
vapid jay
@ember flower Which is fairly depressing, honestly.
vapid jay
cybersecurity has a few sectors where it's in high demand..
breaking into the most renowned ones like consulting requires security clearance.. that means prior military experience..
other than that.. there's other sectors like telecom where it's in high demand
burnt tiger
That seems to be changing over time though, in the direction of increased resources in the hiring of dedicated cyber security experts.
It's becoming increasingly critical, and the cost of security breaches are becoming more and more detrimental.
ember flower
Only the biggest compagnies can afford these experts.
burnt tiger
Any decent sized company with remotely sensitive data would benefit monetarily from having security experts. The cost of a breach for the majority of companies is far more expensive than it is to hire dedicated security experts.
It's not just the Fortune 500 companies.
torpid bolt
these days there is more oppenness about the details of particular exploits, so you have quite a lot of in-depth resources to study what went wrong with a particular thing, involving a lot of technical details, studying these will certainly be helpful, and give a much more real vision of what the job is, just understand that some of the things you'll take a few hours to read took months to find out, so it's normal if it seems very complicated, people came to the nice story they can give you through a lot of probing, experimentation, discussions.
most security issues are not these advanced exploits though, but rather bad configuration of software, failing to update to patched versions, bad password practices and such
hardy ferry
I can't think of anything a cybersecurity graduate could do in a company cybersecurity related. The company would need to give them extensive rights to their system and I don't imagine he would know immediately what to do. Depending on their competence he might achieve the exact opposite. Cybersecurity is something that you have to be mindful of as a software engineer. Cybersecurity is something you develop on your journey as a software engineer.
Cybersecurity experts are important and needed. My point is simply this is not something a graduate can provide to a company. A cybersecurity graduate likely won't do cybersecurity right off the bat. And for that reason it is especially important to bolster your portfolio with some more substantial experience that can be of value to the company.
vapid jay
Part of the curriculum is an internship in the field of cybersecurity but i get what you mean. Im sure you can still get a job that a cybersecurity student will if u have ur cs degree along with additional certifications and yeah i have heard of this
@hardy ferry
Im going to link you 2 things in DMs
If u accept the fr lol
torpid bolt
@hardy ferry i don't think you need any right to red team for example, blue team would indeed require more, but the changes can be reviewed by other people.
reviewing existing code and ask questions can provide a lot of value to a company that wants to improve security, and you don't need advanced knowledge to do that, just time and being inquisitive.
vapid jay
@vapid jay There is a big difference in massive data breaches due to bad practices and developers wanting to refine their code too much leading to lost business opportunities.
burnt tiger
@vapid jay Of course, it's a fine balance. But in general most companies have a lot to lose and should strive towards code that's high in quality (both for maintainability and security purposes).
vapid jay
Yeah but from a business point it is easier to pay for damages when you already made capital from a product that you made faster than competitors. It is shitty but what can you do?
torpid bolt
yep, that's very real, a lot of startups start with less than average code, and have to rebuild a lot as they grow
even if you build high quality, there are good chances you'll have to rebuild anyway as the business grows to unanticipated challenges anyway
but of course, it's really hard to find the right time to replace bad structure when you are in a growth frenzy
burnt tiger
Oh yeah of course, but I'd say that's only to a certain degree. Most companies will have a defined amount of acceptable losses, but that doesn't mean they will place zero effort into improving code quality over time. It's just not the largest priority.
vapid jay
Yeah it is pretty hard to pitch "We want to make the code prettier" to people usually.
I constantly have to review products that are built exactly this way. There is only a few companies that can build this type of products and we are one of the worlds biggest buyers so they always try to beat each other just to get to us first.
whole mulch
I want to start delving into AI and the like, where could I start (career and learning wise)?
vapid jay
Google is such a powerful tool that I rely on for things I can be pretty certain I can find reliably almost instantly, it surprises me how often people ask in forums/discords those kinds of questions and I wonder if they also Google them right after
I have an interview coming up that will probably ask me some python questions. I'm pretty good with using python in a work environment where I can look stuff up, but I dunno what's gonna happen if I'm asked to code on the spot
gilded valley
The kind of questions that typically get asked in interviews centre around data structures and algorithms, and are the kind of thing where you either know it, or a simple google search wouldn't be too helpful. Most programmers are very aware of the fact that anything complex can just be googled, and won't expect you to know absolutely everything on the spot - just to be able to think in the right way
vapid jay
not all companies will ask ds&a questions though
I'm more worried about if someone asks me to use a lambda function for something and I'm like uhh how to do that
I bought cracking the coding interview about an hour after I couldn't get the best case time complexity for a question for amazon
hushed kestrel
I was asked to fix some production code and make unit tests in 45 minutes. But I think that interview was an odd ball
vapid jay
I would honestly fail unit tests
burnt tiger
@vapid jay
I would honestly fail unit tests
Basic unit testing knowledge is quite important for most dev positions. I'd recommend spending some time learning the fundamentals at least. You don't have to be an expert by any means, but you should at least know to write a basic program using TDD (tl;dr: writing the tests before the program implementation). The primary goal is to logically map out the expected behaviors of a program using the tests, rather than just writing out the code until it outputs something that "looks correct". Personally, I find it easiest to do it in chunks of: writing a few similar tests, writing the code, and then debugging until the tests pass when working with more complex programs (instead of writing all of the tests at once).
vapid jay
yeah I know. I had a technical interview w/ amazon the other day and had to say I didnt know what to do for a test
felt bad
especially since I think i couldve just done assertEquals(func(..params), result)
but I was hitting some serious mental walls since I've never been in an interview like that before
burnt tiger
@vapid jay
assertEquals(func(..params), result)
FYI,assertEquals()is a deprecated alias forassertEqual(): https://docs.python.org/3.8/library/unittest.html#deprecated-aliases.
But yeah, most simple tests can be written using a assertEqual(actual, expected) setup. Some of the other methods can be skipped, but a few such as assertRaises() and assertWarns() are necessary at times.
It's also good to know how to write a basic setUp() and tearDown() structure, and knowing how to use mock objects.
The main other thing I can think of is knowing how to properly organize and name your tests, by classes, test cases, and subtests.
vapid jay
I have a ticket open in my current sprint at work for writing tests for an app that already has tests. I'll prioritize it tomorrow to get some experience with it
halcyon plank
Hey everyone! I have a query
I am currently a first year CS student and I want to make my career in developing apps for desktop (like Skype and all)
So which category will this fall in
Will this be called software development?
Like if I build apps for mobile then it's "Android Devlopment"
So what do we call it if I want to make apps for desktop
Currently am learning Python and have covered all the basics, but still I have this doubt
If I try to find a course for software development, I get the results of
1: Web Development
2: ML
3: Android Devlopment
But I get no result which says app development for desktop
Can anyone help?
broken oar
i plan on adding my github to my resume and if the employer wanted to test my code what IDE software do they usually use?
someone said this will mostly only work on the terminal?
rocky snow
^
burnt tiger
@broken oar
i plan on adding my github to my resume and if the employer wanted to test my code what IDE software do they usually use?
Honestly it doesn't make much of a difference, and will vary greatly depending on the employer's preferences. It might be worth being familiar to a basic degree with the popular ones, such as PyCharm, VS code, IDLE, etc; it's not particularly important though.
broken oar
Thanks @burnt tiger so far i really like VSC
burnt tiger
Yeah I personally alternate between editing in Vim, vscode, and IDLE depending on my specific needs.
burnt tiger
@broken oar Also, on an unrelated note, I would generally advise against using from os import system, name, it's a lot more clear to readers what function is being called if you use import os, then os.system() and os.name(). That's not to say the from module import x syntax has no place, but just not in that particular case. It comes down to preference to some degree, but system() or name() is not clear on it's own.
burnt tiger
@broken oar Well, in the case of the code you posted above: ```python
import os
import operator
def clear_output():
if os.name == 'nt':
os.system('cls')
else:
os.system('clear')
``` The _ = is unnecessary as well in that context, you can just directly call os.system()
burnt tiger
@halcyon plank
I am currently a first year CS student and I want to make my career in developing apps for desktop (like Skype and all)
So which category will this fall in
Will this be called software development?
Like if I build apps for mobile then it's "Android Devlopment"
So what do we call it if I want to make apps for desktop
The specific title would probably be "Desktop Developer" or "Desktop Application Developer", but it would fall under the broader category of Front-end Developer, which is largely focused on the user interface. This can apply to front-end website development or application development, as there are a number of similarities between the two. See https://www.techopedia.com/definition/29569/front-end-developer for a broad overview.
halcyon plank
@burnt tiger isn't a front end developer the one who makes the websites
Like using HTML, CSS, Javascript
I wish to make the whole application including the UI and the backend(the algorithms inside it)
fallen fulcrum
Hi, I was wondering if it would look bad if I uploaded a project on Github that I made for my current job. That would mean hiding information like URLs, usernames etc in a config file. No one could use the code, but they could see how it works with some explanation.
I would like to upload this just to show code to potential receuiters and because I haven't made any personal projects outside of work yet.
tawny pewter
@fallen fulcrum You need to find out if your job enables that. It likely doesn't
and if I was a hiring manager, and I saw you were uploading or sharing code from your current company that wasn't open source, that would be a hard pass
fallen fulcrum
@tawny pewter yep good points.. hah. Need to find that free time for personsl projects :/
tawny pewter
I wouldn't worry too much about the Github thing; most people don't have a fully stocked Github with code samples, and they still get hired
odds are, the company isn't going to take a hard look at it anyway, and ask you to take a coding test
fallen fulcrum
Okay thanks for the advice!
uneven jay
Hey a recruiter from Netherlands just contacted me, but I don't have any idea of the living expenses there, and what could be a good income, anyone that works there or knows about?
shy pollen
@halcyon plank Frontend focuses on guis, backend focuses on algorithms and the internals
vapid jay
Unless you have big dick github it probably won't be looked at that much
real python
What is a "big dick github"
indigo sleet
I think it's like a regular github, but you put holes in the exhaust so it sounds louder
tawny pewter
it also displays a set of TruckNutz hanging from the logo
burnt tiger
@halcyon plank
isn't a front end developer the one who makes the websites
It's not exclusively website development, it involves the development of anything that's immediately facing the user. Also, there are back-end web developers as well. The front-end web developers primarily work on the GUI and presenting data in a meaningful way to users.
vapid jay
im worried for my friend
he has not tried out programming at all and is kind of noobish compared to a high schooler entering computer science in college
hes gonna be starting college for cs
is he going to survive
vapid jay
depends on the university.. but as long as your friend puts work in, he should be fine
and by depends on the university, I meant the workload and pace
@uneven jay glassdoor
broken oar
i have a very noob question. Setting my github public just allows ppl to view the files right? they can't edit it or anything?
"A fork is a copy of a repository. Forking a repository allows you to freely experiment with changes without affecting the original project."
vapid jay
vast shoal
@broken oar Yes, that's correct. You would have to grant specific permissions to other users to allow them to actually commit changes to your repository, setting it public doesn't do that. When someone forks your repository, they create a copy of your repository under their own user, so it doesn't affect your repository.
broken oar
muchas gracias
broken oar
whats a good python practice site? where i can solve simple problems to further my education?
vast shoal
@broken oar You can check out the resources under https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources/#interactive-learning
This is a bit off-topic for #career-advice though.
broken oar
oo thanks
i guess my question is, is there a specific resource u recommend for helping pass interviews
vast shoal
I don't think there are or should be any quick fixes that will quickly and easily get you past an interview. Getting an interview in the first place can sometimes be unfairly tricky, but once you are actually in front of a real person, it's up to you to prove that you're employable. Build your skills and show that you can provide value.
If you want to know how to build your skills, that entire resource page is full of useful information.
broken oar
i do have automate the boring stuff which has been good so far. but ill cont to check out that link u sent
vast shoal
Yeah, that's a great starting point.
dusty shuttle
Just stumbled upon this article on Reddit (and saw something along the same lines on Hacker News): https://www.tlnt.com/toxic-workers-are-more-productive-but-the-price-is-high/
What do you guys think of the "rockstar" employees?
vapid jay
yeah that was me.. lol
till I ended up in the hospital and learned to take things easy:3
dusty shuttle
Whoa, in the hospital? From overworking, you mean?
vast shoal
I feel like there is an implicit assumption that the toxic part of the behavior is a necessary component of the productivity, which I think is very questionable.
The most clever and productive people I've known in my career have all been perfectly nice and sociable.
The Harvard study found evidence that toxic employees are more productive than the average worker.
...However:
Dr. Housman notes, however, that, “While toxic employees are more productive, meaning getting more things done, the quality of that productivity often is less than desirable.“
I would say that if you produce a lot of code, but the code sucks, then you're not really productive, because all your code incurs tech debt that will need to be paid for later.
Not to mention the hidden costs of reducing the productivity and quality of work from everyone around you.
dusty shuttle
I have an acquaintance, who's highly productive (in a good sense, also really cares about quality) and incredibly smart. Takes quite a higher-up position in the SE world. He seems to be kind of a recluse and not very into dealing with people at all, though. Likes to do things the clever way, not the "next person is gonna read this and it won't take them a million years to understand my genius", from what I had seen.
He might have changed as a person now (we don't keep in touch), but there was a time I'm positive he wouldn't come to his office for weeks, despite being a super important cookie.
Don't know how "toxic" that is, but even though it doesn't sound very team-centered, the company seemed to depend on him in a lot of things
vast shoal
Well, it's not toxic in the abusive sense, but writing unmaintainable code can be a huge liability.
The value the functionality provides is offset by the cost of maintenance, and the risk of not being able to modify or add new features as needed by the business.
An employee with good social skills can provide a lot of value outside of the actual code they write as well. They can educate, encourage and organize other people around them.
So if you're a total recluse, all of that potential value is zero.
fair sky
I wanted to be a data scientist
full sorrel
I was completed my graduate by April 2019 on the field of B.Tech in Computer Science Engineering and I was looking to do masters program in cyber security. Can anyone assist me which country is best to do and scopes. Because I love cyber security from my childhood and I have seen in usa the government is giving accreditation for some university with real time efforts. Thanks in advance
gilded valley
Are you currenlty based in the UK?
full sorrel
Nope right now I'm in india..
full sorrel
Not a problem..
hushed kestrel
Anyone have any experience getting a FAANG job? I have been given advice that maybe I should cash out instead of working for startups
unborn crystal
so I applied to 3 different google postings, two of them maybe 3 weeks ago and one of them a week later. just heard back that they're not interested in moving forward for position #3.
should i read way too much into and it decide that it means i'm still in the running for #1 and #2?
hushed kestrel
I have no idea how any of it works . _ .
I've applied to a few positions and some just never get back to me
runic heath
Im coming from a Devops background what is a good way to prep for interviews as much of the focus is on the tooling and explaining concepts
some Python questions but on a basic level, but id like to improve on my Python dev skills
quiet talon
@vapid jay What about Grandma’s py
opal perch
@unborn crystal Usually you only need to apply to one position. Because it automatically applies you to everywhere else for google, just apply to other places too and have the mindset that you were rejected, but usually if they reject for one, I thiink they're rejecting you completely?
unborn crystal
they were three separate positions, not 3 instances of the same position
but i was joking, i know that's not how it works
(I applied for Developer - ML, Developer, and Senior Data Analyst - Search. When you apply they tell you at the top that you're automatically applying to every instance of that position everywhere)
but tbh i got the rejection for the one i'm most qualified for, the developer applications were moonshots
lavish anvil
Is there a place to share job openings, didn't see another channel for it.
marsh wind
Forbidden
hallow basin
Oh hey @unborn crystal
unborn crystal
Sup
mild zenith
@lavish anvil We don't really have a place for that, no. We're more of an education server rather than a job board
potent solar
does anyone have good resume examples for programmer/developer-type positions?
or ideas on how to phrase cleaning up existing code?
potent solar
oooh, yeah good wording, thanks!
vapid jay
I will be going to a college open house tomorrow, there may or not be activities related to computer science in the lecture which is specified in the event description. Any entry level knowledge or things I should know before going? This is kind of a dumb question but its better than not asking anything at all.
not just related to python obviously
ex.) convert numbers in binary, etc.
hushed kestrel
What's a college open house?
vapid jay
visit
talk to teachers of ur major, listen to their lectures, talk to current students, eat there , check out dorms and classes, all the mumbo jumbo
hushed kestrel
Convert numbers to binary is not something you should be even close to talking about
You are looking to see if the college is right for you
Some things you might want to consider is "How fare will you have to travel to go to classes"
"How often are you taught by professors vs being taught by their TAs"
"I am interested in computer science, what percentage of your incoming class stays in computer science and graduates? What percentage goes to gradschool? "
"Why should i choose this college over some other college? What is this college unique strengths?"
"What sort of internship support will I receive here? Will I need to go to other companies/labs over the summer to get experience or will I be working with professors? "
"how much do things cost?"
"What is student life like? "
"What sort of transportation services exist? Buses? carpool? ect
mild zenith
How much debt am I going to expect by going here....
vapid jay
no, i saw that sometimes certain lectures have you interact and do things related to computer science alongside of current students
and idk really what to expect
eternal forge
What do you really need to know to get a job in programming. What do they ask you to do? My parents are really pushing me to become a programmer because all my parents friends are programmers and making a lot of money anyway not really part of it but yeah I just want to know what I need to know as soon as possible
vapid jay
@eternal forge youre in 9th grade right?
@vapid jay dont ask technical questions
like how to convert numbers to binary
eternal forge
yea
vapid jay
it wont make you stand out lol
eternal forge
what
vapid jay
at your age you need to worry about if you enjoy it or not
i know how im literally saying they are known for having these weird classroom activities where u partner with current students and do random computer science related challenges
sucking at it isnt the same as not liking it because pretty much everyone sucks at it in the beginning
eternal forge
If i could make something like a macro and stuff yeah ill enjoy it being able to shortcut most things
eternal forge
Well im the type of person who doesnt care if I actually like it or not. If I get paid good Ill do anything thats NORMAL lol
vapid jay
you can get paid doing something you are good at and enjoy
my real passion is astronomy and space stuff but i also like programming
dont just do something because your parents are forcing you to do it
eternal forge
I dont really have any goals for anything rn but I want to be able to do it and then start maybe a business or an idea
I mean right now its not bad I just dont know anything and its frustrating but I want this to be a skill
if you know what i mean
vapid jay
sure, just keep practicing and being curious about things and find a path that you enjoy within the field
eternal forge
Thats why I want to know what they do to see if this is gonna be full or if I dont like what it is Ill find something
else
vapid jay
honestly if youre parents are pushing you to do this because all of their friends do it and make good money you should ask them to set you up with their friends to ask them more about it
theyre actual professionals in the field that you have a personal connection with and can get real information
they can also know that your parents are trying to determine your life for you and can tell them to stop 😄
eternal forge
I mean I actually dont care or not like I want something where I sit on a computer and do something not completely boring and not completely brain killing
Im trying to say something else that is like I dont care but I CANT FIND THE WORD
But you don't need to worry about me doing something I love. I just wanna know what the job wants you to do. I'm not really into anything particular
They aren't exactly pushing me its just like if I don't find anything I want to pursue
U kinda understand what i mean @vapid jay ?
Right now im open to learn anything that makes 80k+ I don't have much knowledge on how getting a job in anything works but yeah
maybe you would start lower and work your way up
vapid jay
There are too many jobs to tell you what any require of you
eternal forge
programmer is a job or a skill\
vapid jay
Software engineer jobs will require you know data structures and algorithms in a lot of places
Entry level sometimes it's just fundamentals and behavioral interviews
Language concepts
eternal forge
so What do they make you do?
Im just confused if they make you make sure your software is working fine or make you create something
or just update and better their software and stuff
torpid bolt
imho if you get bored easily dev might not be for you, it's good to have patience and attention to details, being ready to spend time reading documentation, and to dig into code and into a debugger to understand why the thing doesn't do what you expected it to.
but there are several aspects to the job, understanding the thing you need to build, analysing the constraints, designing a set of modules to work together to solve the various parts of the problem, interfacing with existing systems, actually coding the thing, making it sure it does work by developing test suites for each part and making sure they all fit the requirements, etc
mild zenith
Devs kind of get their jollies by pouring over lines of code until they get things juuuuuuuust right
If it excites you, then that's great, but it's certainly not for everyone
dry sapphire
anyone applying to Google/FB's AI residencies?
vapid jay
Where's the money at with python for a beginner/intermediate
Web dev, data analysis, ai, etc
unborn crystal
depends on your local market tbh, unless you're looking to move
it's not data analysis though 😢
opal grotto
@torpid bolt Can you give an example of what a single developer would be tasked with at a generic developer job?
Every position I see wants some skills that are so specific that I can't imagine them finding any person to do the responsibilities for the job lol
Like this one sounds like 4 different developer's specialized skillsets into one candidate?
Managing VoIP phone systems working with API’s to test different “use cases” which include setting up IVR’s and call routing, and understanding logics to setup custom phone systems
Collaborate with UI/UX designers and product developers to conceptualize and build new features end-to-end
Build and develop mobile applications for Android Play Store and Apple App Store
Design and build custom utilities such as an employee clock in & clock out system```That does sound like a lot of roles lumped into one
opal grotto
There's even more roles to that position than I even listed lol
I don't see who would have the skillset to develop android/ios apps, and work with IVR's and VoIP backend API's and enterpriseutilities for clocking in and out in one person lol
The role also wants you to be a linux web server admin and management of contractors and freelancers 😄
indigo sleet
I would expect a lot of professionals to be able to pick up the skills
But it's too many jobs for one person to reasonably handle even if they did have it all
torpid bolt
hm, well, let's pick an example from workplace recently i guess. We have a b2b website, to manage data about businesses, it interfaces with external services like google my business, to push this information to them (open hours, pictures, etc). One feature that is currently being developped is to create groups of users in an organization, and to create businesses in these groups so the member of a group can manage them (currently you have to link each business directly to a user, this doesn't work well for big organisations), so they had to implement the groups, so developpers in the team that implemeted that created the database scheme and the code to implement it, as well as the apis to create/read/update/delete groups depending on the access level of the user calling these api, then the front UI was adapted to add buttons some page for organization managers, so they can create/manage groups, and some buttons for group managers (as users can now have that role), so they can create businesses (a thing only organisation managers could do before), and associate them to the group they manage. These things and other tasks around it have been in the work for the last few weeks for a team of 3 devs with one lead dev and 1 product manager to define the tasks and how to validate them, and the technical strategies to implement this logic in the current codebase. All developers are considered capable of doing both the backend and the front end tasks (though of course some have preferences), and they try to have tasks that don't exceed a day of work, though it's not too rare that a task take more time than anticipated.
developpers are also responsible to read and test other's people code before allowing it to be merged in the master version of the code, this does take a significant amount of time but allows catching bugs earlier and avoid bad design decisions, it also share knowledge in the team better.
opal grotto
hmmm
What would a task assigned to a single member of that team for a single day be though
When you onboard a new developer, is their first task to familiarize themselves with your codebase?
torpid bolt
so, to give an idea, creating the db scheme and basic logic around it, is typically less than a day of work for a dev, as we do have a lot of common logic for that. unless the structure is quite complex and worthy of a lot of discussion. Same for creating an api endpoint to manage it, and the functionnal and unit tests around it, unless it involves complex logic, it's expected to keep a dev busy for less than a day.
their first task is to deploy the project on their machine.
opal grotto
I feel like my hardest part would be during onboarding when I have no idea what is being worked on or what the codebase is like but once I got up to speed I feel I would be able to keep pace properly but only if onboarding went well and I was actually able to understand what is being worked on in the first place how can I know I will be of use to a project beforehand when I am looking at available positions on Indeed etc?
torpid bolt
during their first week their time is shared between explanations from a tech lead (cto or lead dev), about the various patterns we use in the app (datalayers for db, routes/parsers/serializers for apis, react/redux/saga for the front) as well as the architecture around it, and pair programming with various members of the team on simple tasks, to make them familiar with the code base.
getting familiar with the codebase is indeed part of the challenge, there have been people working on this app for more than 4 years, and so generations of devs and different iteration of architecture choices and design, but spending time with other devs more familiar with the app and codebase does help, and of course it's normal to have questions and to take some time from your coworkers to guide you, especially in the first few weeks (and even after a few months, it can still happen that you need to touch a part you never saw, and have to dig more or ask someone else to make sense out of it.
(when i pair program in this situation, i like to let the person do most of the coding, and to guide them in their search for things in the codebase, and explain the important patterns as we need to put them into place)
this team has been growing for 4 devs when i came in almost a year ago, to 12 today, separated in 3 feature teams + 1 core team, and these small teams focused on specific tasks (epics, usually a few weeks of work, that they cut in tasks and implement), works well, it allow good comunication in the team without taking too much time and brain space (as you don't really need to know what people touching very different features/parts of the codebase do on a daily basis), it's been quite a successful growth imho.
of course, process varies from companies to companies, so don't assume what i'm describing will apply to any of your future workplaces, it's just an example.
velvet drum
Amazing wall, I think it's better than the one Trump built. Much cheaper as well.
If a job has 1000 duties and everything under the sun ask for the appropriate compensation of a small $1,000,000.
torpid bolt
well, i don't think a lot of dev gets near that an employees, let alone junior ones.
it's not unusual for jobs to describe a lot of things you are likely to touch, but it doesn't mean you'll do them all, and certainly not all at the same time
it's normal to learn on the job too, you need to know things, but not everything they plan to make work on, learning is an important part of a dev job
velvet drum
Yeah, we also can't tell give you much insight without the job listing. More than likely it's multiple roles and a handful of those 'responsibilities' is something you might do based on which team you join.
halcyon mortar
I have an interview with a three-person startup wanting to make their first hire
I want to make sure that they aren't crap and that its sustainable for at least a year
What questions should I ask?
humble elm
I think it would be appropriate to just ask them about their evaluation and burn-rate if they dont want to tell you its probably bad. I think just asking them is best :)
But probably following your gut is best! :)
coral mica
I looked on linkedin and saw that there are over 23000 job posting looking for python machine learning developers worldwide. Theres only 300 for web development in python.
vapid jay
that's not likely
unkempt sandal
what can a high schooler do involving python?
are there internships or stuff like that?
ember flower
Not in python specifically I think
gilded valley
I've heard of people of high school age getting internships/work experience - but normally its not through formal means like applying on a website. The way I've seen it done is through meeting people at things like hackathons, and showing that you're actually interested and capable. Although, I'm guessing this path still isn't super easy
vapid jay
a python programmer should know C for better performance in py programming..
like..after all,C is the foundation of Py/Lua/C++/C# and the chain goes on as C# makes PHP.......
fierce rain
I should be adept at C to be adept at python?
Eh really?
I mean cpp would still be fine(would it tho?) But C?
I dun follow
vapid jay
you dont need to know C to be a good python developer
coral mica
If im looking to have a career in machine learning engineering, what sort of skills do i need to learn to put on my resume? Will certs from udemy be good to add?
dry sapphire
@coral mica I actually work as an MLE now
(it's a pretty nebulous term TBH)
but on a daily basis I need to be proficient in statistics, the Python ecosystem, some algorithms/DS, both classical machine learning and deep learning, VCS (we use Git), and some ETL/production stuff
Kubernetes, Pubsub, Elasticsearch, Redis, Cassandra, Postgres etc. etc.
depending on what kind of position it is the production part might not be so important?
but I work @ a startup so I wear many hats
coral mica
Most of that im unfamiliar with
Im currently taking a course in stat
But its for a clinical psyche degree. Im choosing a different career tho
dry sapphire
well, I would say you need to know
- how to solve a problem, in theory (statistics, machine learning techniques)
- how to implement your solution (some programming language, algorithms/DS)
- how to connect your solution to all the other parts of the software stack (Git, Docker, various databases, etc.)
coral mica
Thats veryhelpful thank you
Could you point me toward some resources and maybe some good portfolio projects?
dry sapphire
what kind of resources?
I learnt more or less everything myself/on the job, so I'm not really sure TBH
coral mica
Ok
dry sapphire
How do you qualify "portfolio"?
coral mica
Just some previous work that demonstrated competence i guess
dry sapphire
I have a few side projects (on GitHub), a tech blog and I also do freelance work
not sure if that counts
dry sapphire
nw
vapid jay
That college visit i spoke of earlier wasnt so bad
All the class desktops are shit specs but at least they're windows 10 and resemble what an office pc would be like in the real world
Was cool how they had a lab room for every operating system lmao
Definitely will be going, now i just have to harvest my skills for the next 9 months in python, networking, and some other stuff as well
shut geyser
Hey, i have a bit of mess career right now, i was doing a PhD in biology, discovered python for some clinical stuff, my PhD was going nowhere so i stopped and i went to Pharma. It's a bit boring and i did some things with Python, a blog ect... Weirdly i got contacted by Google for interviews, managed to Onsites but didn't get an offer after this. They told me to retry in some months, but meanwhile i'm really super bored at my actual job. I don't have big projects or diploma, what's the best way for me to sneak in to interviews in "regular" companies?
Just that, after having enjoyed learning algorithms and stuff i realised how dull and outdated Pharma is :c (outside of lab and drug discovery)
(and EU based)
vapid jay
Swiss?
vapid jay
yeah I've been there.. love that place..very industrial
you can look for opportunities within pharma.. there are companies doing a lot of cool things..
image processing.. process optimization in diagnosis..
shut geyser
Yeah for now, i work in Clinical Trials so they're very risk averse (not willing to try new technologies) but at the same time hurh, lot of dumb processes and shit
vapid jay
well clinical trials doesn't really leave much room for innovation..
shut geyser
Today i have a remote training of Business Objects hurh, and it doesn't even work with their system
vapid jay
but you're in the industry.. just branch out to a different field..
are you with a CRO?
shut geyser
Yeah we handle some electronic data capture tool for sponsors
From setting it up to statistics and doing the EMA report
I'm in the part of setting it up and it's really unchallenging
For me
vapid jay
SPSS?
you can only try to branch out to a different division.. and stay within the industry..
unless you're an expert at something else, it's difficult to have any mobility in other fields with your degree.. it's a limiting factor
halcyon mortar
I won't get a job by the end of this fucking year
mild zenith
That happens
halcyon mortar
I have been unemployed since effing april
I may as well by "unhirable" thanks to those assholes who think a gap is a strike against you
"You have a gap, get fucked"
THat's their mentality
Sorry if I am ranting
mild zenith
You're fine. Might just be a bit more suited for one of the off-topic channels. This is more about getting advice and discussing programming jobs and the like. I mean you're free to vent your (understandable) frustrations in one of those channels, though
vapid jay
Im just curious but what are you trying to get employed for and are you searching enough @halcyon mortar
halcyon mortar
I'm just trying to get a front end or fullstack job
I have 9 months of exprerience which sucks
vapid jay
past job experience?
halcyon mortar
Yeah, it was a dumpsterfire
I'm surprised I was able to stay there for 9 months
God
I feel so lousy
red nebula
@shut geyser Pharma is very very conservative rip
shut geyser
yeah
red nebula
I did a class on pharma manufacturing and that 100% turned me off from applying to pharma companies
cleanrooms 🤢
shut geyser
it's a bit crazy seeing all the cool tech and all the cool code. Meanwhile, if i write 5 lines of VBA i have to send it through 5 managers and wait two month to get it validated
shut geyser
i'm gonna try applying to startup i think
maybe some are crazy enough to take a rookie like me
halcyon mortar
I want to tell you “be careful”
But I dunno
I’ve had pretty bad experience with a startup so I might be projecting
torpid bolt
virtually all startup fail (97% or something), a small percentage of the remaining ones make it big, the others can be kind of okay i guess.
halcyon mortar
I’m thinking more in terms of how management treats its staff
You gotta be careful cuz working with the wrong people can backfire
Perhaps this is close-minded of me to say, but I would say to avoid AI startups. They are selling an imaginary product often their product is inherently unsustainable and they will make you pay for it
shut geyser
i was doing research before
they aren't even selling imaginary product, but imaginary paper
=p
halcyon mortar
Yeah AI is total horse shit
torpid bolt
it's certainly overhyped and people are selling pipedreams with it
unborn crystal
stick with those of us firmly on the ground using it for serious realizable gains 😄
shy pollen
Or join me with my sustainable machine learning military grade encrypted light bulb!
vapid jay
I love pharma.. just couldn't break in.. the interviews are long and grueling.. worse than any tech company
narrow hawk
I don't know if this should go into #cybersecurity or here but I was trying to find if there is a job like a CSSLP even without the certification. I was told generally securing programs is something done by the lead/head programmer, but would it be feasible/reasonable to be a security programmer to-hire? What I am asking is like: I get hired externally as like a contractor and I take X development teams code and check it for security flaws/issues and fix it. The more I type the more it seems like this would probably done interally you generally wouldn't want proprietary code in the hands of some contractor. I just thought the idea of implementing the SDLC sounds like a cool job, but guess I need to become a lead programmer unless someone knows something I don't?
primal sundial
Is a degree from University of the People taken seriously?
vapid jay
no
primal sundial
y
vapid jay
university qualifications are in different tiers..
they depend on the alumni, quality of instruction and available opportunities..
where do you think this one stands with regards to those three concepts
primal sundial
means distance online education doesn't have a value?
vapid jay
sometimes.. it does.. if it can help you qualify for a full-time program or credits somewhere else before you graduate
it's usually used by humanities majors to further their education.. they get one degree in distance education and step that up with another degree elsewhere
vapid jay
aren't associate degrees usually pursued after 9th grade?
I'm not sure how the education system is where you are.. but they have been outdated for a while..
they used to be 5 year degrees.. that people pursued after junior high.. in Asia.. my dad did one of those, that's how old they are..
primal sundial
associate degree is 2years and BE is 4years
i tried coursera bachelor in computer science university of London , its very expensive same fees like on campus
vapid jay
you can apply for scholarship
for online programs.. especially on coursera.. they only need you to demonstrate need
but you should really talk to other people who are from your city/state.. to get an idea of possible career paths if time/money is your concern at the BE level..
primal sundial
okay thank you tron
neon moat
@halcyon mortar how many jobs have you applied to?
halcyon mortar
I lost count
neon moat
Not getting any calls for interviews at all?
Is it your CV? Applying to jobs outside of your level of experience? Are you attending local code meetups and networking?
halcyon mortar
I'm doing everything
I am just impatient
I'm getting close in interviews
I got close several times
sinful solstice
Hi guys. I am currently in the process of trying to move from a business oriented role to a data science role. I have been studying data science non stop for the fast year. I believe my skills are at mid-senior/advanced-entry level. I am solely applying to Data Scientist roles yet I am not even getting any interviews. Would anyone with domain experience be kind enough to check my cv and let me know what I can do improve my chances?
mild zenith
What's your prior experience?
sinful solstice
I worked at a manufacturing company as a business development exec for 2 years.
Within this role I have also assisted the team to implement a data pipeline for real time analytics.
That's about it. My degree is in business management and MSc in finance.
mild zenith
So no previous coding experience specifically?
sinful solstice
Not in a professional environment, no.
gilded valley
I have no advice to offer, but I am curious. Why is it that you want to make the switch?
mild zenith
Or is that what you meant by assist the team. Ah, gotcha. Well then I would suspect you'd want to start at square 1. From my limited (very limited) knowledge, when you're shifting such huge gears in careers, the bulk of your previous experience is mostly going to count for showing that you're a diligent worker. It may help you get to a leadership role in a team, but without proof of coding knowledge or a good portfolio of work, you're going in with not much to offer them
So ideally you'll need to build up a portfolio of projects or Open-source work that you've done
sinful solstice
@gilded valley I wasn't satisfied with what I was doing daily and I always wanted to learn coding and analytics, so a year ago I took the leap and quit my job.
mild zenith
Job fairs, connections, whatever you can find to help, but your best bet is to look for entry level stuff
sinful solstice
@mild zenith The problem I'm having is I am not even getting any calls back; and these are entry level jobs that I am applying. I am fairly confident in my skills. I am very certain that I will do well if I get a take-home-exercise. But as you say, my portfolio is lacking. It is quite difficult to build a diverse portfolio for data science. The work you can do is very limited outside of a professional environment.
gilded valley
Do you not have any contacts from your previous work who might be able to help you out?
mild zenith
Sure, but any coding experience will help with that. Possibly making a program or setup for processing rainfall statistics or what have you
Just something that shows you're skilled, not just keen on giving it a go
sinful solstice
@gilded valley Unfortunately not. I worked at a textiles manufacturing company as a business developer to improve their systems and workflow 
gilded valley
Sure, but did you not have any contacts outside of that? Or even people you knew from that work who have moved on to other companies?
sinful solstice
Well I am trying to get an interview with my connections. It didn't work up until now, but still trying to push it.
gilded valley
I've just heard that any kind of human connection, even a very lukewarm one, is better than just applying to job postings
sinful solstice
My connections in this field is extremely limited. And not many companies are looking for a data scientist in my area.
I guess I have to keep working on my portfolio, whatever project it is on and see where that takes me.
mild zenith
Open source projects can also lead to possibilities as well
Contributing can help make connections and always look good on a CV
sinful solstice
Yes, I could try contributing to projects as well.
karmic wren
hello, I'm going to be interviewing a candidate for a Python internship tomorrow, and I was wondering if any of you know of a snippet/example of Python code that incorporates a bunch of minor mistakes/poor behaviors into a couple of dozen lines
I'm trying to write one myself but it's actually quite difficult to do :/ but the idea is that we would just ask them to point out things to fix/improve and explain why
inland kiln
Hi so I’m somewhat new to python have written quite a few programs one game also using turtle basics of django and was wondering if anyone could give advice on what path to go in or what to learn to make the most out of it
dark salmon
i need some advice regarding college coursework. i'm a non-cs major whose research is in computer vision and machine learning. i literally do not know shit about low-level systems like memory allocation, caching, computer architecture et cetera. do i need to take a systems level course? it it going to benefit me in anyway wrt employment? taking a systems course would mean i have to take one less ml / cv course
vast shoal
If you're going to be writing code professionally, I would definitely say that it's useful knowledge. What impact it has on your employability is hard to say. Some technical interviewers might appreciate it, I guess.
With the disclaimer that I'm a software developer, and I don't work in data science, so my experience is not directly related to what I imagine you will be applying for.
burnt tiger
@dark salmon @vast shoal Data science is not my primary area of experience either, but AFAIK, an understanding of low-level programming is not particularly important in that area. As far as programming languages go, it's mostly useful for data scientists to have a decent understanding of Python, R, Julia and SQL. I'd personally recommend taking an additional ML course over a low-level computer architecture course if data science is your main area of interest (especially in terms to practical career/employment benefit).
It wouldn't hurt to spend some time learning the basics of memory management and general computer architecture (particularly the high-level concepts) though, even if you don't take a dedicated course.
solemn valley
A knowlege of low level programming can be useful in that are if you happen to fall into the small category of people who actually implement the basic frameworks used all over the place as those do actually perform some amazing optimizations etc
Apart from that it's gonna be vastly useless I'd say
vapid jay
I would avoid the word useless because it can deter someone from wanting to learn something
"Less useful" is less derogatory about learning something than "vastly useless"
vast shoal
I'd argue that while you're unlikely to have to work on a low abstraction layer as a data scientist, it's always good to have a basic understanding of how the entire stack works. It tends to allow you to make better decisions at higher abstraction levels. Nobody's arguing that they should take a minor in computer engineering, but a 101 course is not going to hurt. Whether you should sacrifice an extra data science course for that is debatable, I guess it depends on how much extra value you think that would bring you. I encourage you to look into the topic on your own regardless.
gilded valley
Honestly, just understanding roughly how memory is allocated in function calls is useful, and often not covered if you only focus on higher level stuff
reef lotus
@dark salmon do you mean like a course for basics of microcontrollers and microprocessors? I would say go for it. You can do crazy projects with little knowledge about raspberry pi or ARM controllers on the cheap. Make robots or design a smart mirror which tells if you look dumpy or great. Looks good on your cv too.
Also i think if you are majoring in DS, then you already know more than me and i am doing a Phd and do a fair bit of data wrangling.
hushed kestrel
As someone who has done some crazy projects with microcontrollers, I would suggest staying away from them TBH. For novelty projects it's...'fine', but if you want to take the subject mater seriously, you'll need to either design PCBs or do the mechanical design to get the most out of doing hardware projects. At the end of the day, if you can do mechanical + Electronics + Firmware programming, python application + Prototyping you can make something like, 130-160k in SF as opposed to just going into straight programming and making 110-170 base
Programming is far far far away easier to do and do well instead of trying to be the uber multi-disciplined engineer
hushed kestrel
As I said, if you want to do it for the novelty or just some rando exposure, that's fine. Anything past that is a mistake
mild zenith
I feel like mistake is too tough a term
It'd be a fine enough thing for prototyping a concept without having to rig up a breadboard yourself
hushed kestrel
It is. It's like writing. If you can be anything other than a writer, you should. If you can't, be a writer.
hushed kestrel
I don't dismiss it outright
I dismiss it after making it my career for 5 years and having lots of industry experience
mental thorn
Is it frowned upon to reference back to your old scripts when writing new code?
Or is referencing my older code to recall how I approached a problem okay to do?
Because I often find myself needing to look back at my old things to remember exactly how I would approach a scenario (of course I then will judge whether or not that was a proper approach or if it fits for this new thing I am working on)
unborn crystal
as long as the older code is right, why not
mental thorn
I guess I would just worry as coming off as clueless without it lol.
unborn crystal
i'd hope over time you'd leverage the work you've built up
mental thorn
Because when it comes to utilizing modules? I usually HAVE to reference back to either the documentation or old script
And then it comes back to me after that, but it kind of takes that refresher glance
pulsar drum
It's never bad to reference anything
As long as you can still get the job done in time
mental thorn
Alright that's a bit of a relief then.
pulsar drum
You'll eventually internalize things
mental thorn
Maybe that's something that'll start to kick in more as I apply them in a work setting. I may go three weeks without using something and then I have to quickly brush up on it
Just because currently I code as a hobby, so there are spans where I don't need to write anything, and it slips a bit
hushed kestrel
@mental thorn Someone I was mentored by who had been an experienced coder for 20 years keeps a personal 'Reference' folder containing code/whatever snippets to remind himself how he does some basic things. If you can remember how you did everything or can figure it out quicker than a google search/figuring it out again..Great! If you can create a tool to makeup for having a limited human memory, that's good too.
mental thorn
That's also an excellent idea.
I have found that I always remember each specific feature I add to a program. So i usually can go "Wait how did I implement a stop start feature for this data miner", reference back to one I know works, and then apply it
So I have a folder of each script I have written basically, and I will sift through them occasionally to remember. It's good to know that I am not just bad for not being able to remember.
hushed kestrel
The things that you need to save to remember probably speaks the quality of your programming
But I mean, every programmer runs into issues and needs to look up syntax
Or whatever.
mental thorn
Typically it's for the "weird "stuff. Like comparing lists to other lists
Which has always screwed with me in how that appears on screen
hushed kestrel
Doing things that are syntax heavy like, how to do a basic opencv program, matlibplot, whatever.
mental thorn
Thanks for the reassurance, guys.
unborn crystal
matplotlib is impossible without like 3 documents open simultaneously
no matter how much experience you have
mental thorn
I totally get that. When I was learning data vis with seaborne, I had a hell of a time working with the matplotlib syntax
unborn crystal
seaborn is definitely getting there but it's still tough
mental thorn
Yeah, I was finding I'd have to reference the seaborne docs, and a few matplot docs just to figure out how to make them work towards what I was working towards
unborn crystal
totally normal
unkempt ferry
I went to a code retreat the other day, and paired with a guy.
then at the end of the day it came up that I'm looking for a job
he came over and is apparently a senior dev at Oracle and basically said he really enjoyed pairing with me, and i'm the kind of person he wants on his team.
so now i'm going onsite at Oracle tomorrow afternoon to meet the team and HM and then I'm going to send in my resume for the formal application.
shut geyser
Nice
vapid jay
woohoo congrats.. if you need someone to review your resume feel free
finite pendant
Awesome!
vapid jay
Nice avian, the resume part is probably just a formality too.
My company did that, I had to submit a resume just to have my application go through their portal, but they said it could have pretty much a anything on it
tidal tapir
my career is 3 weeks and python is so easy to learn i recommend it
neon needle
grats avian
vapid jay
py was made to be easy
the whole reason it's popular is cuz it's ez asf
not easier than html
but html doesnt even count
balmy mural
html is a markup language, so of course it shouldn't count
unkempt ferry
i sent thatand then went to sleep, but ty for all the well wishes! Its been 4 months searching now and i really hope thats the end (of course i realize that is still a pretty short length of time in the grand scheme of things vis a vis others' searches and esp those that are self taught)
vapid jay
What are some good things to have in a portfolio to get a job using python?
junior levle? pretty much anything technical
junior level positions for most (not all) companies will just want you to have a grasp of things and show an aptitude for learning
hmm
you dont have to have a BS dagree?
mint citrus
I have a Bull Shit degree
vapid jay
well.. you're a cat... so
vapid jay
cat got skills.. hope the benefits include cat nip
mint citrus
hell yeah!
vapid jay
No I dont have one
languid mason
how is python automation ?
I've been doing python at a surface level and some competitive coding but I got to know about how it can automate a lot of stuff and it interested me
is it viable to pursue and is there any potential there ?
I'm thinking of giving the automate the boring stuff with python book a go
vast shoal
All programming is automation, essentially. Do you have something specific in mind when you use that word?
That's a good book.
Is what viable to pursue, and is there any potential for what?
@languid mason
languid mason
I mean, as in, for a career, I've not researched too much on that but I've seen projects that can automate essentially all the work required, so I wanted to know whether this skillset can be pursued from a professional standpoint
for example using selenium for testing automation of web applications and stuff
shut geyser
Yes there is people doing this
I've met some
Not sure how you get in it, they were freelance
languid mason
I do want to get into a specialised field as currently I'm at a point where I know the basics of most programming languages but nothing in depth
so trying to explore my options with python
What are the major careers to look for in python
shut geyser
Software Dev and Data Science?
You can also use Python if you're not strictly a programmer. I work in Clinical Research in some technical job (aka i program some shit and do some documents but i m not a "Dev"). But python helps me hugely whenever i wanna process excel files or reduce the menial work to nothing.
I made tons of scripts to not do the horrible copy pasting my job requires so after i can complain i'm bored.
shut geyser
What i do? It's so interesting i made scripts for it 😂
I made some cli tool that code for me 😬
languid mason
Ah lol
vapid jay
o
broken oar
What types of careers can a person pursuing knowing SQL, python, and cloud services?
pursue*
gilded valley
Data Engineering, backend web development, dev ops engineer
fluid fern
@languid mason inter at Unisys, don't work with the inters that do the python automation but I do help them from time to time with it. It does exist and is used extensively
broken oar
would data engineering be in the same category as data analyst
gilded valley
Not really
Data engineering is more preparing, collecting, and making available data
generally for data analysts
fluid fern
Is it normal for everyone to underestimate how much time they spend on a story in scrum? I'm still new in the corporate world of being a software developer intern and have found that most of the time they drag about 3 to 4 more hours than expected
vapid jay
for us, story points are dictated based on difficulty, not time
also, completing the tickets within the time frame of the sprint is the most important thing really (for management)
fluid fern
I guess so, time doesn't really matter as long as you complete it 😂
shadow moss
Akirakurai, it's pretty common for my devs to do that, biggest thing we fixed was moving QA/SRE type of tasks into seperate tasks
to show difference between coding/QA/SRE type of activities
fluid fern
Makes sense
shadow moss
BTW, I hate that bullshit, devs will take as long as it takes
broken oar
@gilded valley do both data engineers and analysts use the same technologies? like using databases etc
backend web dev sounds like a good career too
what types of positions use CI/CD? Is that specifically devops?
unkempt glade
Any project managers here?
or someone who had an experience about project management?
gilded valley
Most devs will touch CICD, but yeah, it is generally associated with dev ops. And as for data analysts and engineers using the same technology, there will be a lot of overlap, but analysts will be more focused on tools to analyse the data like ml and its associated technologies than an engineer
gilded valley
I got an email after completing an online assessment saying we'll follow up shortly last Thursday. I have a humans email address, should I email them Monday to ask for follow up? I'm guessing it's a pretty rubbish sign that they haven't gotten back to me yet
Also, its for a software internship at amazon
gilded valley
Software development, data engineering, dev ops, sysadmin stuff
hollow night
Web development?
gilded valley
I'm including web development with software development - but yeah
hollow night
👌
I want to be pythonista
I know the basics ..
But now I don't know where to implement this skill
Flask or Tkinter or web scraping or data analytics
Kind of stuck
Or hacking tools ... networking
gilded valley
Pick a project and work towards
hollow night
Umm
I'll start with flask..deploy something to heroku.
Then Tkinter ..one GUi for Linux .
Then let's c
shadow moss
goat, most front end web development is javascript, if you want to do backends, python is still used some
hollow night
👌
vapid jay
Can we post linkedin links on here?
ember flower
Depends why I think
marsh wind
@vapid jay if you want people to look at your profile to comment /advice /critics - i am quite sure that yes. Or if it's some career related article
If it's job listing or you look for job and want someone here to hire you then no
vapid jay
I'm just getting more tech related contacts and other people who add me will get 1 more (Comp sci student)
Admin can delete if not deemed appropriate.
unreal linden
@vapid jay i've deemed it inappropriate. Not only are you basically doxxing yourself on a server of nearly 30k, but it's considered advertising
!rule 6
inner wrenBOT
vapid jay
@unreal linden Thanks for the clarification, it will not be repeated.
lament pawn
is python actually used in gui development or is it gui in python used by hobbyists only?
indigo sleet
It does get used for that
Dropbox is a good example
Although I think they might move away from it at some point
static breach
Will learning python make it easier to learn .net or are they too different?
humble elm
if you have never programmed yes it will
just so you can get the right way of thinking about stuff. but the languages themselves are pretty different.
static breach
My goal is to learn enough coding to be able to help explaining to devs on how to improve programs. Maybe some basic python knowledge Will make it easier to explain, even though they are using .net
I guess "the right way of thinking" is what im looking for
zealous ibex
hello guys, I've a question about like jobs etc. I really like data science but also hacking, is there a path or like a job that merges the two. Or is it just like the hacking skills compliment the data science skills ?
wild wigeon
Possibly something to do with automated vulnerability discovery?
Analysis of network data to identity malicious actors?
zealous ibex
the second one is a quite good idea tbh
wild wigeon
For instance look at what Cloudflare does
zealous ibex
thanks a lot, will do!
gilded valley
Analysis of network data to identity malicious actors? This is a phd level problem
vapid jay
is it really
gilded valley
One of my lecturers literally did that for his phf
Obviously you can give it a shot
But it's very difficult
night pecan
Anyone can answer my question on dm about programming?
gilded valley
!no-dm
inner wrenBOT
gilded valley
Generally better to try and ask in a help channel
hardy grail
Hi everyone I'm looking for a little advice, I am developer with 19 years experience in various programming languages both front and backend and have dabbled in python on and off over the past 15 years. I just want to know what is the most important python knowledge to have if i want to land a remote python job? I've touched DRF,regular django, tensorflow, pymodbus,tkinter, a bunch of socket and network programming with python. Also which companies are the most suitable for python remote jobs?
shadow moss
remote jobs is generally dependent on company, not the position
viral ridge
which companies is really a hard question. like, either they have a remote positionor not. do the search?
shadow moss
and even at some companies, it's dependent on division
at my $megacorp, we have some divisions/groups which are heavy remote and others which are not
rancid pulsar
remote job is goal
winged niche
will enterprises and banks move to python/js in the future for backend?
cyan torrent
lots of moving goalposts for that question
answer is likely a combination of market factors like developer supply, code supply, and client willingness to migrate
hardy ferry
Remote work is nice but often times it's not possible. All the projects I've been in so far I had devices which I had to occassionally touch. I'm still doing software development though.
Then comes the issue of communication which is playing a bigger and bigger role in modern day software development. It's much easier to communicate when you see each other then when people are in their home. The occassional question gets quickly answered etc.
js plays a big role in browers. Outside of it it has some uses but it isn't really big.
Python isn't really optimized. Sure it is already running very fast etc but it is relying on other libraries which were not written in python. E.g. a music bot written in Python uses ffmpeg. Python is a high level language. It abstracted a lot and it is easy to get into and write software. But with Python alone you won't be able to do everything.
To do custom and optimized solution you have to go more low level.
winged niche
i'm currently a java springboot pleb
i don't like the current job, the technology feels old and i don't want to be left behind
shut geyser
Java pleb doesn't seem bad isn't it ?
hardy ferry
I'm not familiar with it but from my research it isn't dead https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Spring-framework-dead
You have to know that a lot of companies use outdated solutions and stay with it.
People complain about projects not using up to date technologies but migrating to an up to date solution can be deadly to the project. You will have to reinvent the wheel introducing old and new bugs you'll have to maintain.
You are fine with spring boot. A software engineer can adapt. The skills you learn are transferable. Be it the soft skills or your logical thinking.
What's bad is if you cannot adapt.
"I don't like the current job" is a very dangerous thing to say.
It doesn't look good in your CV when you stayed with a company for less then a year. Changing jobs after 2-3 years is fine.
winged niche
they're trying to shill their new reactive programming framework
not sure if it's worth a learn
yup i would not say that to interviewers
unkempt glade
Anyone who has experience in project management here?
reef marsh
@whole loom Your recruitment was removed, because we do not allow any kind of recruitment in the server.
vapid jay
if you were looking to get hired at a company for a non development job but wanted to know as much as you could about their software before joining so that you have an edge, how would you go about that, or is that not typically public info?
mild zenith
Typically you can do research via their site
Which honestly is a good thing to do regardless of where you're interviewing or what kind of job
Figure out how they're doing, what their company goals are, etc.
whole loom
Huh why that ?
mild zenith
Our focus is on being an education server rather than a jobs board
Saves us having to vet the jobs we allow to be advertised on here and what not
fluid thicket
Do any of you by any chance worked/work for accenture?
vapid jay
does anyone know how spotify uses python?
hardy grail
I think maybe my question was a bit misguided. What I actually think I meant is what theoretical knowledge will help the process in 2019.
gilded valley
Data Analytics mainly - at least thats what I've heard 2nd/3rd hand @vapid jay
vapid jay
yeah spotify uses it with bigquery I believe
shut lava
really?
zenith socket
so I applied for an analytics position as an intern and they responded telling me to do a test tomorrow at their hq, what do you guys think the test will be about? it's one and a half hours long
shut geyser
Well depends on the job add
And the company
I'd revise the tech they mention and make sure i can talk about the thing i put in my cv
vapid grail
Good luck
vapid jay
@zenith socket if it's a well known company there might be something on glassdoor
and you'll get an idea of what to expect
zenith socket
thanks for the insight!
mint citrus
I got 2 of my jobs through linkedin
mint citrus
Nya~
gilded valley
How did you use it @vapid jay ? Were you actively posting stuff, or just keeping your profile up to date
shut geyser
You can search for jobs too ?
That's what i do, they usually have a link that redirect to their site/job board.
hardy ferry
From my experience online application etc isn't very successful. Going to job fairs, getting to know the people and then applying yields a much greater success.
It is all about having contacts.
Because once it goes through HR they will have to sift through a ton of people and you might be sorted out early.
mint citrus
I never got a job at a job fair. and ive been to plenty
vapid jay
Update skills, profile info, experience.. use your SSI score to see your visibility.. stay in touch with people from companies you're interested in
wide needle
I hate to hide my linked in. Got tired of solicitations
mint citrus
just do it after you get a job
vast shoal
I got my current job over linkedin
I get a steady stream of recruiters pinging me for job interviews. Once I set my profile to "casually looking", that increased threefold.
mint citrus
its funny how they send you jobs after you get a job in that country
while you are looking you never get it
vast shoal
It's probably a good idea to try to find a job before you quit your old one.
It looks better if you're already employed.
mint citrus
well yeah of course.
the last one I was able to work remote and search for a new job in that other country
whole mulch
I'm a highschool student in a gap year before uni, and I'm looking around to see what I can do with python to both learn more and geenrate some side income. Where should I start or where can I look?
neon moat
@whole mulch depends on what you want to learn
whole mulch
I'm interested in web development and AI atm, and pretty much open to learn anything
hardy ferry
If you are starting to learn Python it's going to be difficult to already be making from it. If you are learning Python on the job (maybe interning) you'd make money.
Even if you look on Fiverr and make Discord bots or similar the time you invest as a novice into it doesn't correlate well with how much you are getting and there is a risk they aren't satisfied.
So if you are a novice I wouldn't go into this believing you make sustainable income. You should treat it as something to expand your horizon. To build your portfolio so future employers see you are capable.
Web development in Python while possible it isn't really trivial. You will have to know html, css, js as well in order to build a good front end. Python usually takes the role of the backend. Building a REST API for instance while your front end is a single page application. You can also do server side rendering. It is a lot to learn... You could make side income with it but you'd have to be really good at it for people to hire you as a freelancer.
AI is a really big buzzword. It is an interesting field but it isn't trivial. There are a lot of tutorials out there but I personally haven't come across many companies looking for AI developers. And those who do expect years of prior work experience as a software engineer (can be unrelated to AI)
What I'm trying to say is you can and should learn Python (or software development in general). But don't expect to make "side income" when you are a beginner. If money is tight try to get a job or internship at a software company.
You should focus on building a portfolio showcasing your projects. But the chance of your projects already making some sustainable income for you is very slim. So don't go with that expectation into it and be burned out/have an existential crisis
vapid jay
we have a saying in DS.. "if it's on a ppt it's AI, if it's in code, it's ML"
gritty heron
@hardy ferry wonderful explanation
whole mulch
Hmm I think I could elaborate more on what I know
I do know html. css and some degree of javascript, and worked with postgressql and windows sqlmanager, as well as hosting some sites from IIS (admittedly not using python for any of this)
burnt tiger
@hardy ferry
Web development in Python while possible it isn't really trivial. You will have to know html, css, js as well in order to build a good front end. Python usually takes the role of the backend.
There are certainly professional Python web developer positions out there, primarily using Django. Of course, you still need to know HTML and CSS, but a strong understanding of JS isn't required. It's useful to have a fundamental understanding of JS either way though.
whole mulch
More than anything, I want to start a project with python that could potentially give money in the future
I'm familiar with have JS works just in case o/
burnt tiger
Any personal Python project will build valuable experience, but is ultimately unlikely to give significant monetary returns unless it's supplementing something else, such as the website for a startup business.
hardy ferry
Your first few projects likely won't print money. It is where you learn the language. When you are at the point where you can monetize your work you will likely have to rewrite your whole projects since you were inexperienced and included a lot of coding debt.
whole mulch
I see, in that case, what projects do you guys recommend? I made a discord bot not long ago and now I'm just on a limbo on how to apply my skills in a meaningful way
burnt tiger
I'd highly recommend working on personal projects that are highly presentable though, for whichever area(s) you're the most interested in. If web development is your area of interest, building a portfolio website (or any form of website, really) using Django would be a great start.
whole mulch
More specifically, not writing programs to print me out the Fibonacci sequence/sorting/etc etc
Stuff like that, while not boring, keeps me from thinking critically (and I've done them too often when learning pascal)
burnt tiger
Another good way to get involved is to contribute to open source projects you're interested in that heavily utilize Python
Even if you just start with helping to clean up the documentation and make minor improvements, it's a great way to build experience in working with other developers.
left escarp
try the @flat anvil
shut geyser
I never know how to approach this last proposition. I always feel like i need to know the product/codebase well to contribute to something. I've looked numerous time but always gave up because it's a sort of step
burnt tiger
@shut geyser
I always feel like i need to know the product/codebase well to contribute to something
That's a very common misconception, the vast majority of major projects intentionally leave "easy", "newcomer friendly", or "good first issue" issues/bugs for new contributors to help with. They primarily serve as an introduction to the workflow and gradually build into more involved contributions.
burnt tiger
That's known as "imposter syndrome" and trust me, I've felt that myself before. I think most people do at some point.
shut geyser
Though i've seen "easy" going from documentation to "rewrite my codebase in graphql pls"
hardy ferry
I also struggled with this problem but it is a really crucial skill when you are employed.
My first attempted contributes (minor regex fix) were bad since they had a stylechecker and the test failed as a result. Then their feature branch progressed and I had to rebase my git commit etc. etc. But eventually you learn from it and it gets easier.
burnt tiger
Oh yeah, it depends on the project to some degree. That's why I'd recommend starting with one that has a decent sized community. Maybe not a massive mature project, but not a brand new one
hardy ferry
I think it is also crucial to be familiar with more than one language since you won't be exclusively working with python. This also learns getting into new languages
shut geyser
Common pair is JS/Python right ?
burnt tiger
Yeah definitely, but if you actually have a strong understanding of Python, learning other high-level languages is rather straightforward. As long as you focused on the CS concepts and not just memorizing syntax
shut geyser
That's what i see the most in job ads
whole mulch
granted, you do make more semi colon mistakes if you started with python
burnt tiger
Personally, I started with Python around 5+ years ago, and branched out to Java, C#, JS, and SQL, roughly in that order. Not including HTML/CSS or any markup languages, since those are in a different category. More recently I've been spending more time with C, primarily because of my involvement with CPython. I'm primarily involved w/ the standard library so my contributions are mostly pure Python, but I've been gradually working on building my competence with C.
The semicolon mistakes are easy to overcome though, that's just an initial hurdle early on
Even I occasionally forget every now and then (especially after taking a break from languages other than Python for a while), but that's what linters are there for.
whole mulch
I'll start checking out Django btw, seems pretty useful atm
burnt tiger
Yeah Django is by far the most professionally utilized Python web development library, so if web dev is at all an area of interest for you I'd highly recommend it
Flask is also useful to learn, but it's not used as much professionally because it doesn't scale quite as well with more complex websites.
whole mulch
Oh one think that has been hanging in the back of my mind for a while actually
What's the debate on Django vs Flask?
rare sand
no debate. they're both great.
but they have different philosophies, which apply to different situations.
Django comes batteries-included, with everything you might need for a project of practically any size. it's a little slower, and it's very opinionated, but most of the time that doesn't matter.
whole mulch
most articiles I've seen cover it too much in depth for me to understand, so I always had issues choosing one
rare sand
Flask is a microframework and has only what you need. the rest if up to you to add.
which is fantastic if you're building something that doesn't need all the batteries Django comes with
whole mulch
Hmm so Django could be argued to be more starter friendly?
burnt tiger
I'd say the other way around if anything, Flask requires less overhead to build a simple website
rare sand
yeah, I would probably start with Flask.
there's much fewer moving parts.
so it's easier to wrap your head around
whole mulch
That's surprising, but I like it :0
rare sand
to get a basic page up and running with flask is only a handful of lines of code.
a single file
in django, it's quite a few files and you'd have to learn a lot of concepts
burnt tiger
In the long term it's good to learn Django though, I'd recommend going through intro tutorials for both, probably starting with Flask.
As you start to feel that you'd like more features and a more involved website, you can start using Django.
whole mulch
One last tid bit I need help with
whole mulch
When I started making discord bots, I just pip installed everything without a virtual environment so everything it's bungled up
I'm learning now how to use virtual envs, but I have no idea what to deal with the previous mess
burnt tiger
I'll have to keep that around @rare sand, that's incredibly useful for answering the Flask vs Django question (which is pretty common)
indigo sleet
Any reason to use Falcon over Hug, which is based on Falcon?
rare sand
no. all related frameworks would be fine
quart could be replaced with pretty much any flasklike asgi framework
falcon with pretty much anything similar
but these are just the ones I've looked at personally
I'm sure sanic and hug and bottle and so on are also fine frameworks on the left branch
I've mostly been on the right branch
burnt tiger
Surprisingly, this is my first time hearing about Falcon. I'm sure there's a million Python frameworks out there that I'm not familiar with though
rare sand
yeah. falcon is supposed to be absolutely ludicrously fast on PyPy
burnt tiger
is there an ASGI fork of it?
burnt tiger
Oh yeah there definitely are, I was just curious for specifically minimalistic ones that are primarily targeted at microservices
rare sand
I've heard https://www.starlette.io/ thrown around as an asgi alternative to falcon.
shut geyser
I thought Django had problem with scaling ?
indigo sleet
Blacksheep comes to mind, I poked about with it a while back
rare sand
some of our admins love starlette
burnt tiger
Django definitely doesn't have scaling problems
indigo sleet
it's quite new though
burnt tiger
you might have heard that about Flask
shut geyser
I read instagram engineers blog and i think that's what they use ?
burnt tiger
Yep
indigo sleet
Django can scale, yeah, no problems there
shut geyser
Yeah but it requires a lot of engineering effort no ?
indigo sleet
I wouldn't say it needs any more than Flask does
probably less, given how batteries-included it is
shut geyser
I didn't compare to Flask
burnt tiger
I'd say it's a bit more involved to learn the basics of Django, but it by no means requires an experienced software engineer to make good use of it
indigo sleet
besides, you can pretty much just throw anything at k8s these days if you're lazy
rare sand
I think it's fair to say that it's complicated to scale Django to support hundreds of thousands of requests per second, because of its speed limitations. you'd be running a lot of instances.
but ASGI Django is happening soon
indigo sleet
I agree, although you can mitigate a lot of that with channels
haha, same thought process
left escarp
@shut geyser I am learning django currently and i kick started with the help of this tutorial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oQvMHpKkms
indigo sleet
I think channels actually does already support asyncio
rare sand
Django 3.x is supposed to be fully ASGI
rare sand
well channels aren't full ASGI, but yeah it's the channels dude who has been very involved in it I believe.
burnt tiger
@rare sand Yeah but I doubt @shut geyser is thinking about ASGI and writing maximum efficiency request handling, so that won't be too relevant
left escarp
remember his channel tho, cuz he does some very useful django vids
indigo sleet
yeah, I know the dude, been following him on that for a while
shut geyser
I was more thinking about manpower when your codebase grows large
indigo sleet
I mean I feel like Django addresses that nicely
any huge codebase is going to have to deal with that
shut geyser
Sorry if i don't express myself clearly enough erh
burnt tiger
That's okay
indigo sleet
Django is designed in such a way as to encourage you to.. compartmentalise your webapp
so that suits multiple teams quite well
rare sand
probably true @burnt tiger, but the point is that Django with DRF isn't necessarily the right choice for your API when you're scaling out to millions of users. It's a nice API but this is exactly the kind of thing I'd consider something like Hug or Falcon for. maybe you're not even making a website, just an API for your app or something. if we're talking about that kind of scaling, Django still has a ways to go. I'm hoping 3.0 will be a big thing to help it along there.
rare sand
but I think it's a fantastic framework for pretty much any conventional website you might want to make
and that is, after all, probably 99% of projects.
left escarp
where do u guys learn all this stuff? MDN?
rare sand
uh. what's MDN?
indigo sleet
Experience mostly
burnt tiger
Mozilla docs?
indigo sleet
mozilla developer network
rare sand
people learn stuff from mozilla developer network?
burnt tiger
Yeah mostly just a combination of information from different sources and personal experience, not any one particular source though
left escarp
just curious
indigo sleet
most of my ASGI experience comes from working with stuff like aiohttp
but there's only so much I can learn from reading
rare sand
I surround myself with talented people and suck up all the knowledge from them
many of them are on the pydis staff :)
indigo sleet
Haha, would you call yourself a sort of knowledge vampire?
a "help vampire" so to speak
haha
I'm joking, obviously
anyway, scaling is a really big topic, surprisingly big
any technology you pick will only get you so far, you still need to think about the systems side of things
shut geyser
I call myself a leech
left escarp
i learnt most of python from youtube which dosent actully only teachs the syntax(most of it) so i started reading automate the boring stuff with python just to get those depth concepts..
indigo sleet
nobody here is a leech okay
burnt tiger
If anything, the main difference between the technologies will be the level of "seamless" integration with the systems hardware. But yeah changing technologies doesn't substitute for an understanding of the underlying systems.
indigo sleet
and oh boy are there a lot of them
shut geyser
What is this DnD monster that steals your thoughts ?
indigo sleet
For the sake of keeping this relevant to #career-advice, devops is really hot right now and encompasses a lot of this stuff
it's definitely an area worth looking into if you're interested
rare sand
(mind flayers)
burnt tiger
Yeah I'll have to spend some time down there, DevOps is an area that I have some interest in, but fairly minimal experience
indigo sleet
I have some experience with it, but it just never ends
shut geyser
Python mindflayer seems scary
Anyway i got a job offer from a friend yesterday
But it's JS/ReactNative, and not even sure i would get it
On another hand some BigTech wanna have a call with me for Junior Pytho, but it's duper hard to get in
Idk what to do 
indigo sleet
It's really down to what you're comfortable with, how much you're willing to learn, and how good the jobs themselves are
shut geyser
Well good point for my friend is, dude is cool and other people tell me i would learn a lot, pay is better than what i have now, and it's more "sure" than the other
Other is whiteboard style interview, better pay, very good on CV and Python
Just failed the same kind of interview 4 weeks ago so idk how to feel about plunging again in Leetcode and Cracking the code interview
indigo sleet
Well, it's worth remembering that you don't have to take the job if they offer it to you
there's no reason you can't apply to both and see which one comes out
shut geyser
Yeah but i would feel bad on wasting the time of my friend + another applicant.
shut geyser
True!
lament siren
Hey everyone, hope you're all having a nice day. I got this question:
What skills someone applying as a junior python dev should have? And what are good ways to show them?
It's clear to me that as a web dev you can create a website etc, but what about Python?
I've been studying for 4 months now 3-5 hours daily (with C and JS involved). So I hope to land a job in the field in 2-3 months.
hardy ferry
Having a good understanding of python language and its syntax (if you google "job interview python questions" you will find a lot of those kind of questions). They are easy and you should have no problem answering them.
After that you might want to specialize in some libraries. E.g. for web development django, for testing unittest. You can gain bonus points when you are familiar with PEP8. Have a general understanding of PyPI since your company might be maintaining their own index to keep their code proprietary. With this it would be also important how to do versioning and how to create a module so other people can install them. Then basic stuff like knowing how to navigate on linux so you can host your scripts. What's systemd. On that note the logging module is kind of important. Have a basic understanding of that.
That is what comes to my mind now. Might be a lot more.
lament siren
Thanks a lot! So glad I switched to Linux as soon as I started learning programming haha. I'm exploring Flask right now, liking it. Also familiar with modules and working with DBs.
hardy ferry
DBs are important. You will always need them. Also it helps a lot if you can show your projects e.g. on GitHub.
lament siren
So I should create a git page, got it!
I have a few mates that are already middle-level devs, and none of them are using Linux as far as I know. Why is it so important though?
I only installed it because I wanted to separate my working environment from windows that I only use to play games now. So far it's been a great experience and easy with Ubuntu.
Not like I can't ask them, I just want to hear a different perspective from people here.
hardy ferry
Almost everything is processed on a Linux machine. Since you are a developer and your software needs to be hosted somewhere you will have to touch Linux.
indigo sleet
Well that's not true
There are plenty of Windows and Mac servers out there too
Linux tends to be the cheaper and easier option for a lone developer, though
hardy ferry
I said almost everything.
lament siren
Thanks a lot fellas. What a good server 🙂
shut geyser
aren't Windows server on their way out ?
indigo sleet
nope
tired garden
Where should I start to learn python?
elder talon
depends how you want to learn
videos, reading, etc.
automate the boring stuff seems to be a popular book
personally, I started with codecademy, but they no longer offer a complete python course for free
tired garden
I know the very basics like functions, variables, arrays, etc but i tend to getr overwhelmed and just want to quit any tricks that you use to get around that?
rancid pulsar
make something
elder talon
set small goals
something you can finish in a day
make a tip calculator for example
or mpg calc
those are popular starter projects that can be done in a day
tired garden
Those are supposed to be small goals?
elder talon
yes
tired garden
Ok, so learn the basics being the "backend" and then gradually work my way up to harder and harder tasks?
elder talon
ignore the backend part
what he means is that this program will run in the terminal
but yeah, start small
rancid pulsar
ye
tired garden
Ok, gottcha
What was the very first project that yall worked on. That took at least a day
rancid pulsar
rock paper scissors but I messed up so I had to rewrite
elder talon
with ASCII art
spice warren
can you do a calculator in just one file, or you need differents in order to add, substract, multiply and divide?
elder talon
you can do it all in one file. But that question doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me
python respect the order of operands
unreal linden
@tired garden if you can, try to think of a project that would be actually useful to you in some way. My first project i did in python was a script that constantly checked whether my public IP address had changed, and if it did, to email it to myself so I could use it to ssh into my computer where ever I was and not worry about having the wrong IP address
spice warren
how can you make an input for the operators? (sorry if its a silly questions but i got no clue)
unreal linden
by the way i'm not sure this conversation actually makes sense to have in this channel
rancid pulsar