it sounds like they mean something like a UML chart describing the flow of information around the system
#career-advice
river hollow
yes
vernal lily
yes to which? 😄
river hollow
I think it's UML chart or something similar
vernal lily
yeah i think so
river hollow
am not familiar with this stuff
vernal lily
its not really standardized TBH
a lot of devs don't do a systems design chart before making their app 😄
river hollow
I just don't know how to approach this. The program i ready but this, is way out of my league. I have les than a day to submit
west notch
Heyo
So I was wondering what kind of jobs can u get knowing a good amt of python
Like, being a really skilled python programmer
humble elm
any dev job. if you know any language at a "really skilled" level you can master any other language or framework with some effort.
vernal lily
could still take years to get really good at the other language though
stark wasp
I mean, it's easy to find exceptions
vivid dock
Being a fast learner is a completely separate skill to have besides programming / languages
stark wasp
I've found people who got "really skilled" at FORTRAN and show them Lisp or Haskell and they have no idea how to even read the lexicon
vivid dock
You also need an open mind, yeah.
Can't be in the mind set of "I only know python, rest is too hard for me" or something related to that.
stark wasp
If imperative low-level programming is all you've ever done for 20 years and you're suddenly dumped into monads, list comprehensions and immutable functions, ouch
vivid dock
I started with python, got a job doing front end because of it. Job also moved me into backend. Now my job consists of python for specific things I need, js (and all that comes with that + react/svelte), and .net core / framework for backends
stark wasp
Python is the best way to get slowly acquainted with functional so that Haskell doesn't eat your liver when you meet it.
IMO
vernal lily
nah JS does FP better than python
vivid dock
I'm taking a haskell course in a few months :^)
stark wasp
Blasphemy, I shall meet you on the dueling fields, @vernal lily
vernal lily
vivid dock
I sorta agree with Apex after having done quite a bit of js the last months
Sure python can do it, but it's not pythonic hence not used much. In js it's natural to sometimes use the fp approaches to a problem
stark wasp
I mean, perhaps, but all the frameworks and libraries I've seen and used in JS/TS have been anything but FP
vivid dock
That's true.
stark wasp
I definitely see more libraries for python that use FP
vivid dock
I havent 🤷🏽
vernal lily
hmm
vivid dock
My only experience with fp code is the one is write myself
vivid dock
Can't say I've seen much in libs im using
:D
Yeah, I'm taking it as "free" points to finish my degree
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Has nothing to do with my degree, nor my career. Just 10 points that i need to finish the degree
stark wasp
Just in case you haven't heard of it, hands-down the best companion when learning Haskell: http://learnyouahaskell.com/
vivid dock
Believe I've seen that yeah
stark wasp
That'll help you breeze through the course
vivid dock
I think the course uses it
vivid dock
I started the course a year ago, but had to drop out cause it conflicted with software security in its lectures
stark wasp
pfft yeah, you want that first for sure, sec knowledge is much more marketable
stark wasp
Hahah yeah
Even more since the past year or so since now a lot more companies have seen the drops in stocks that follow large data breaches
main thicket
Python sucks at functional. Definitely would go with JS over python for an intro. But honestly, just start Haskell from beginning. Nothing quite like it
Spend that extra time getting used to Haskell, it will help
shy yoke
man I haven't heard Haskell in a while, what's the status of that language
shy yoke
I love coding in python and ES9... I kinda wish for something that can also be compiled when necessary. I'll probably just focus more on Cython
also sick of java 😮
i should just invent my own language since I'm so snobby about it
stark wasp
Rust is looking good
shy yoke
that's a great idea actually, "syntactically similar to C++"
stark wasp
It's meant for different things than python and JS for sure but that webasm compile target means it can be used in tricksy ways, and if node.js ever gets a webasm implementation as well... >.>
shy yoke
looks like they build OS with it? but i do like its syntax
I think basically, I should stick to python, and maybe just add some Cython whenever I need to build anything more complex and optimized
just gonna have to go with "def def def" :/
vivid dock
I'm excited to see how hard blazor will hit the webworld (with web assembly, and soon c# directly compiled to webassembly)
shy yoke
not sure what that is
Rust looks nice though... It has that kwargs thing: println!("{greeting}, {name}!", greeting="Hello", name="world");
ah this is the kind of article i needed for that
solemn valley
that article is kinda funny for example in the "language the good part" he sasys
Rust forces you to think hard about memory allocation, because you have no choice.
but then in the bad part:
Some things occasionally feel too verbose. For example, converting between str and String
while this conversion simply has to be done manually because str and String are fundamentally different constructs in memory as str can live on the stack and String requires a heap
mental sundial
I somehow landed an interview at a job I feel like I'm severely underquallified for because I have 0 Windows Server experience
So now I'm reading the book about Windows server 2012 that's 1500 pages heck yeah
vapid jay
;-;
torpid bolt
this kind of book is not necessarily read cover to cover
vernal lily
ye I guess its like a "reference book" of sorts
an analogy would be that you wouldn't read every page of a dictionary
but you would lookup stuff
torpid bolt
depending on how it's organised, you might want to read the first 100 pages straight, or you might want to read the first page of every chapter…
tranquil crescent
you should start by what they ask you to do in windows server, then read the specific parts, tutorials on youtube can help you too
golden eagle
to those in Australia: what do you think about university certificates?
i hear people talking about how uni is becoming less and less relevant
I just dropped out of school a while ago to start a Diploma of I.T, and when I finish I plan to go straight into employment while doing industry certifications on the side, (comptia, ccna ect)
versed dawn
Does a coursera certificate hold any value?
torpid bolt
i don't think certificates hold much value in general
vivid dock
Probably slightly useful for entrylevel jobs as a tipping points, but nothing past that
rare sand
if you have like 10, they may convince someone that you have a passion for programming.
I've got a dozen or so and they've been somewhat helpful, but at best only a contributing factor
and that's with a dozen.
rare sand
naw, you can rack them up pretty quick
I got all of mine in the span of a couple of years.
two or three maybe
and some of them were genuinely good courses, so there's that.
vernal lily
couple of years sounds kinda long 😦
rare sand
I'm sure you could do it faster if you were really determined
indigo sleet
I will say that udemy ones mean basically nothing
vernal lily
a comparison would be that
you could make a handful of nice personal github projects in a couple of month
rare sand
they typically last 1 or two months and you could probably do more than one at a time.
indigo sleet
You can just manually check off each lecture and test instead of doing them and still get the cert
Any employer familiar with certs will know that
rare sand
employers will not be familiar with certs, and that's really the main problem with them
perhaps they will have value, one day, or if you're lucky to be interviewed by someone who has a bunch of them as well.
someone who is familiar will know that the difference between udemy and edx is massive, for instance.
but I've never met anyone who would've known that in an interview.
on udemy, many of the courses are made by people with dubious qualifications, or no qualifications at all.
meanwhile, on edx, most of it is university material with actual professors
the MIT one is super legit, for example.
this one
vernal lily
I guess if you at uni already Edx wouldnt be that valuable?
rare sand
naw, I'd say it has zero value then, except my earlier point about showing passion for the craft.
but you'd get that effect with github contributions towards open source, too, and I think that would be a much better way to spend the time.
vernal lily
okay yeah
placid radish
personal projects, open source contributions -- GitHub activity in general -- is looked at and considered heavily in most cases
shy pollen
Yeah
I mostly like to work on my own projects though, never really found another repo to maintain
placid radish
same, just did my first pull request and it's one line of code 😂
shy pollen
I have only ever updated text
I more like to work solo
But if a team is there, i'll pick it over solo (though solo has a nice, pressure-free quality to it)
torpid bolt
@placid radish congrats, we all need to start somewhere 😃
tepid cave
The only cert I would give credit to would be CEH, but that's not really python related
either way it's a pretty tough cert
main thicket
@golden eagle the importance of a uni degree depends on the field. On one side are things where you don't require a degree at all and often doesn't benefit much from it. Frontend webdev, IT-y stuff is here. In the middle are stuff that doesn't require it but benefits a lot from it. Say OS and kernel dev, or compiler dev. On the other side is stuff where a degree helps a lot and you'd be expected to have an undergrad degree, if not a post graduate one. ML, computer vision and stuff like that fit here.
(I'm in Aus too if you're curious)
golden eagle
I plan to head into either a junior back-end developer or cybersecurity analyst role, what do you think about certificates regarding those positions?
main thicket
Lack of degree shouldn't stop you in backend development. No idea about cybersecurity, someone else can probably chime in. @golden eagle
golden eagle
sweet
not sure if it's in any other regions, but have you seen open foundation? @main thicket
if I decide to go to uni it looks like that's the path I wanna take
golden eagle
from what i can tell
spend 1 year at uni doing stuff, if you're good you can do an undergrad degree for free
vernal lily
spend 1 year at uni doing stuff, if you're good you can do an undergrad degree for freehaven't heard of this
which country?
- is this referring to a limited-place scholarship scheme or something?
unkempt ferry
Is there a good way to list codejam projects here as some form of experience on a resume?
golden eagle
@vernal lily i probably understood it wrong but i'll dm you
it's only selected degrees
vernal lily
yeah you misunderstood
that one year is free
but then after that you pay for the degree
if you are able to get into the degree course without this extra year, then you should skip it
rare sand
@unkempt ferry it does already show up on your github profile, and you should definitely be showing that off.
indigo sleet
nice
ionic cargo
So i'm planning ahead, i'm 14 and have a couple years untill I want to get an internship. My plan is:
-Develop my skills for 2-4 years
-Go to college for a degree in computer science
-Get an internship
-Develop my skills again
-Get a job
My main question is, do I need a higher form of education? I don't want to go to uni as I feel I would learn more on my own and I don't want to pay for it <<bootcamp would be something I would rather>> but do I need to go through this or can I get a great job with just job experience and showing my projects?
vapid jay
solid plan.. if you can avoid girls, drinking and/or other reckless life choices.. you'll be set for life
ionic cargo
Not going to through away my lively hood but certainly not going to get hooked on drugs e.t.c, my passion comes first.
craggy wave
There's nothing wrong with enjoying university life if you don't lose track of your studies.
ionic cargo
Well I personally don't want to go to uni, waste of time when I can learn everything at home.
I was wondering if I still need a higher form of education like uni to get a job.
craggy wave
You don't absolutely need it, but a degree still opens doors and makes the job finding process a lot easier
ionic cargo
Hmm, what about a bootcamp?
craggy wave
A bootcamp doesn't rate the same as an actual university degree.
ionic cargo
Hmm. What is required to get a entry level internship?
craggy wave
It may depend on your region, but, here (The Netherlands), most job postings still have some kind of degree as a requirement. Trying to get the job without one is usually possible, but not easy.
craggy wave
Well, you're young, so the best thing you can do is build a portfolio with personal projects
vapid jay
You can learn literally anything at home but most people definitely cannot do that
vapid jay
make a script that pushes random commits to github private repos to make your github contributions look sick
guaranteed employment
vapid jay
Because you have no one better than you saying what you did wrong and where you could improve
You are literally not skilled enough in that subject to know that you did something wrong
ionic cargo
Well that's why this community exists.
And it's true. In effect, if I wouldn't have come to this community I wouldn't be able to code like I am now.
Also, is an amazon scraping application good for my github repo:
What it does:
Say you have a amazon product that you want to buy, you can input the link and when it falls below a given price, you will be sent an email stating that the price has dropped. All the information for sign up/login are stored on a database and you acsess you current product status accordingly. You will also be given the ability to view price over time graphs for given products.
vapid jay
Yeah it sounds pretty good
If you make a frontend for it it's definitely an excellent thing to show
Because it shows you can handle multiple parts of the stack from front to the back
ionic cargo
'frontend'?
vapid jay
what the client sees when he uses the application
so the website that he uses
all the functionality related to that
The first internship I applied to they gave me some frontend homework and they were very impressed because I had implemented some sort of backend to it even though it was just a local database and some functionality.
ionic cargo
So a gui?
I will investigate it and then implement it into my projecyt
@vapid jay What was your knowledge when you got a internship?
vapid jay
I could make basic fullstack javascript webapps
full yolo style so no documentation or testing pretty much
and all my good practices where done by linters
ionic cargo
Do you live the in the uk?
Nevermind it's 16
Ye, what do you reckon I could learn in 2 years of python?
vast shoal
Study, and work on your own projects
ionic cargo
Well rn i'm coding every day for 4-8 hours
vast shoal
If you do this efficiently for 2 years, you could probably get quite far.
But learning efficiently is difficult.
ionic cargo
Hmm, should I focus on one area of python that i want to pursue in this case managing data
pandas*
vast shoal
If that's what you want to do, focusing on it is probably a good idea, but you might not want to limit yourself to it entirely.
ionic cargo
Hmm.
I'm planning to get a basic knowledge of it and then move onto assembly and c language
vapid jay
I agree with @vast shoal that learning efficiently is going to be difficult.
ionic cargo
What do you mean by learning efficiently
vapid jay
learning in an efficient manner (as much and as fast as possible with the least amount of effort) I'd imagine
Because if you have autonomy over your own decisions what most likely happens that you will stay in your comfort zone and just learn things that you enjoy even though learning a harder less interesting thing would bring more benefit
That's why schools are great because you have people with more knowledge and understanding than you who know what you should learn
Also you can't pass a class if you don't study those things
vast shoal
@ionic cargo By efficiently, I mean studying with focus and in different ways. Reading books is one way and doing practice exercises is one way, and that does serve a purpose, but you also need to work on your own more free-form projects. You also need to get involved with other people who code. Talk to them, like on here, show them your code, get feedback and learn from it. Work with them, get involved in projects with more than one person, learn about the kinds of tools you need to make that work well. Ask around and figure out the best methods and resources for doing stuff like this. Figure out what the industry standard is for every aspect of programming and try to learn that. Try to get involved with people who are more experienced than you, don't just team up with your childhood friends whom you feel comfortable dealing with. You need to put yourself out there and learn to deal with criticism. Don't just stick to one way of learning and improving for long, keep renewing yourself and try different things. Jump on opportunities to learn, even if you don't feel like you are ready for them. You may not be, but you will probably learn much faster this way.
There is a huge amount of talented helpful people and useful resources all over the web. But you won't get any benefit from that unless you actually make use of them.
Start a Github profile from day 1 and upload everything you make to it. This makes it easy to share your code with others, and receive this highly valuable criticism I'm talking about. As you get more experienced and your code gets better and your projects more polished and useful, you can start pruning your old crap. And eventually you will have a pretty decent portfolio that you can show off to potential employers.
You can spend 4-8 hours a day "programming" for 2 years, but if all you're doing is write the same kind of CLI application over and over, you won't get very far.
So what you spend your time on matters a lot.
ionic cargo
Hmm
This is great advice
I will start a github profile rn
and start uploading
Thank you!
vast shoal
Good luck.
ionic cargo
Thank you.
dusky heart
what jobs are available for development in python besides data science/machine learning applications?
and are there a high volume of them?
eg do any companies actually use flask to power their websites
solemn valley
yes lots of companies use python with flask or django to do webdev stuff, in fact id argue its together with what you mentioned the biggest application group
vast shoal
Yeah, there are tons of webdev jobs with Python backends.
karmic spear
Websites not that much, web apps quite a lot.
ionic cargo
@vast shoal If on my github I had an amazon scraper which broke amazons tos would it look bad ?
unkempt ferry
are you applying to amazon? lol.
that is against this server's rules tho as far as getting help with it? idk
cyan pawn
ionic cargo
I'm debating whether i should save the hassle
formal sedge
Ime php is mostly legacy nowadays, but I might be wrong
unkempt ferry
ik at least one project that still actively uses it
tiny wadi
Hi, I had a technical challenge for an entry level job that I wrote code for, what's the standard way to submit it?
private github repo?
or just send the ipynb
vast shoal
If they have no preferences of their own, a github repo seems like a good way.
Easy to browse and clone if necessary.
I would prefer that to being sent a file, personally.
tiny wadi
ok thanks, that seemed right but wanted to make sure
vast shoal
@ionic cargo As a rule of thumb, not making illegal or rule-breaking items part of your resume or portfolio is a good idea.
ionic cargo
Well it's legal but breaks tos
vast shoal
The term "illegal" is a bit fuzzy here, but if you break a contract, you can have civil charges levelled against you. But it doesn't matter for the point I was trying to make. It doesn't look good on your resume in either case.
ionic cargo
Within the field of data science, what would you recommend I know for an internship?
ionic cargo
Yes, but like data visualisation idrk
lunar harness
I'm not sure, but i'm afaik nodejs/javascript is used a lot in web development in terms of jobs. That being said it doesn't mean that Flask isn't used in jobs at all
dusky heart
@lunar harness i mean backend
@ionic cargo thats not necessarily visualization
although if you are doing data science i think you should know how to do vizualization
pandas is used for manipulating datasets
dusky heart
ok
knowing the csv and excel libraries would be good too
plus keras/scikit or some other ml
topaz walrus
I am currently thinking of jumping ship from my current industry (Electrical Engineering in Power/Public sector) after 7 years; Been playing with AWS and maybe getting a solutions architect cert. In terms of credentials, would getting an IT infrastructure / DevOps job be particularly difficult if I have an B.Eng in EE or do I need a masters or some other creds; would this question be better asked in DevOps topic chat?
ionic cargo
If you're asking that you need a masters e.t.c No, you don't, it may open more doors but if you just build your git hub repository and prove that you can do what they want you to do then yes.
If you don't mind spending money to getting more doors opened but you want a job in a quicker period of time then I would recommend a boot camp but i'm no expert so don't take my word.
vernal granite
anybody know a good internship that takes high schoolers?
ionic cargo
@vernal granite where u from
vernal granite
colorado
ionic cargo
Oh i have no idea then
In brittain u have to be 16+
What's the extent of your knowledge
vernal granite
ive done some machine learning but im still pretty new to it and i know python pretty well, am self taught have known it for around 6 months
currently working on a website for a discord im apart of
ionic cargo
I recommend you wait, develop your skills to a point where you are very confident in your python fundamentals, you need extensive knowledge within your desired field in my opinion
You need to pick a field
I was wondering, could anyone tell me what a data engineer actually does, i'm confused between and analyst and an engineer. I presume that the data engineers sort data sets and visually present them to the analyst?
placid radish
@vernal granite it's hard but not impossible, doesn't hurt to apply some places you may not feel qualified for. If you're in Denver I'm sure there's a lot of tech companies that take exceptional HS student interns :)
The worst that can happen is that you learn about the application process of companies you're interested in
vernal granite
im near denver so i dont mind taking the bus down there if i could get an internship. as i said im all self taught and so to learn like from actual professionals woudl be great. i will definitely apply thanks for the advice!
placid radish
no problem! Since you won't have any college experience to talk about, try sharing any GitHub repos or examples of programming experience
vernal granite
thats a good idea! i am trying to work on harder projects right now
how exceptional of a student are we talking here?
im like A's and B's 3.7/4 gpa
placid radish
hmm I wouldn't really know, depends on the employer. HS grades don't mean too much. If you demonstrate a lot of passion and a capacity to learn via personal projects I think that's your best bet. (I've heard stories of HS interns showing off raspberry pi projects at interviews)
vernal granite
i made my own kernel, its not in python but would that be somewhat impressive?
placid radish
oh certainly! that's very impressive, I'm studying CS and don't feel I could do that very confidently
vernal granite
im definitely interested in CS for my future
is it super intensive? i feel like i read about people in the CS field being super overworked
topaz walrus
based on people I know telling me about their jobs; I'd say its pretty variable whether you end up being overworked or with a company that really appreciates work/life balance
placid radish
@vernal granite if you're asking about studying CS, very prestigious programs will have you basically studying every waking hour. I'm going to a non-competitive school and the pace is good. so it varies
vernal granite
thank you for answering my questions! ill drop you the source code in an hour or so. its pretty minimal but its something
main thicket
from the people I've talked to, the workload at prestigious universities isn't that different
content itself might be a bit harder people people tend to be smarter to make up for it often
unkempt ferry
Would I include open source contributions and hackathons under experience?
vast shoal
If you've made significant contributions to a particular project, and the experience is somewhat relevant to the position you're applying for, it seems fine to me.
I don't know about listing every hackathon project you developed over a weekend.
Maybe put that on your Github and link it.
unkempt ferry
Ok, i wouldn't say i've made significant contributions to anything large or noteworthy, I'm just worried about not having any technical jobs before
vast shoal
If that's all you have, I guess including it doesn't hurt.
unkempt ferry
K.
vapid jay
hackathons and projects help..
it's how I got noticed and offered an interview before graduating university.. they just found me on linkedin and saw my github.. what I was doing was relevant to their work
unkempt ferry
Yeah, I do have a couple referrals lined up which should help as well, but I know it's still going to be really difficult.
vapid jay
whenever I feel there's a daunting task ahead of me, this helps: "anyone who was anyone was right in this position where you are now"
unkempt ferry
That's a nice sentiment, but i'm not sure that's really true :/ it doesn't feel like it at least.
Anyways this is what I have right now, i'm sure there's tons of room for improvement, suggestions?
the links are out of line in this picture at the top because zooming messed with allignment? i don't know what's up with that
main thicket
@unkempt ferry You have to have been one of the core devs for a decent project to put open source to put it under "experience"
I wouldn't put anything minor or hackathons under experience
They're not significant experience
main thicket
no no, put them on there, just not under experience
"experience" is for jobs and other big boi responsibilities
vast shoal
Yeah, maybe create a different section for smaller hobby activities like that.
unkempt ferry
Ok, and since i don't have tech roles, would you suggest it go above or below experience?
main thicket
my preference is:
education followed by stuff in order of impressiveness if in school or a couple years out
stuff in order of impressiveness followed by education if out of school for a while
unkempt ferry
Ok, and what if it's within a couple years, but school wasn't finished? Which I just realized is probably misleading on that document
Actually I need to sleep, if you have more input please @ me
vapid jay
Don't put job experience not relevant to the job you are applying
It just takes space
And they don't care for it
unkempt ferry
So no jobs listed is better?
vivid dock
You could probably find something related to the job you're applying to
Like if you worked at a mall or shop, you could list it and focus on the part where you know how to interact with people, not that you know how to operate a cash register
unkempt ferry
Yeah i was trying to focus on the communication skills.
since i got to Knoxville (2017, 19 y/o) ive worked at jtv, w a lateral/slightly upward promotion to Chat the march before lastish.
i am actually going to bed now. i appreciate all your input
main thicket
Some job > no job for sure
vivid dock
Depends, wouldn't wanna put "call center - selling fake windows licenses" on mine 🤔
mild zenith
Better than selling fake windows and instead sending posters of windows to peoples' houses
unkempt ferry
lol. nah selling real jewelry
tiny wadi
so, I was given a coding assignment for a job interview last Thursday, and I'm just now ready to submit it... Assignment said "in the next several days" , should I address that I'm submitting it really late or just not mention it
assignment was also supposed to take about an hour, which conceptually was achievable but I ended up spending a lot more time on than that
rare sand
I probably wouldn't address it.
mild zenith
^
rare sand
no need to volunteer that kind of thing. if they ask, you answer honestly.
tiny wadi
appreciate the input thanks
ionic cargo
What do I need to learn to become a data analyst ?
ionic cargo
And in what order do you recommend I learn them?
vapid jay
I am really cautious about interviewing with small companies now, just had a really bad experience
they gave me a coding assignment that involved implementing something, I did so using methods I came up with.. then they tried to get me to spill as much about research at my current company (a large tech company).. then I just high-tailed it out of there..
vernal lily
small companies vary way more than big companies 🤷
then they tried to get me to spill as much about research at my current company (a large tech company).. then I just high-tailed it out of there..were you under NDA?
vapid jay
of course.. plus techniques and research that goes into popular products is sort of the competitive barrier to entry..
vapid jay
yeah.. I felt so used.. v.v but at least I learned something..
always be clear of their intentions before wasting time..
vast shoal
How did they go about asking you for your current employer's research?
I mean, how do you even phrase that with a straight face?
vernal lily
fairly sure this is the face that they pulled ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
vapid jay
with a very straight face.. I was pretty surprised too.. I kept trying to brush it off saying that it needs massive infrastructure, that training happens in code that's not public to the rest of the company
lofty gyro
I'd call them out about it.... Politely... "I can understand how my work there was relevant, but if I'm only here because you want that info, let's not waste any more time"
(I've used "lets not waste any more time" 10 minutes into an interview and left before, but for a different reason)
I've interviewed with loads; I contracted as dev/devops for 10 years.. mostly 3-6 month projects, usually cleaning up the mess when someone's walked out or a project went pear shaped.
I landed in a small comany who I absolutely love; so not your typical IT enterprise thing - it's a creative studio; with a tech focus doing loads of motion graphics, animation, data visualisation and virtual reality along with a dash of ML and IoT
vast shoal
@lofty gyro Please note that recruitment is not allowed according to the server rules.
lofty gyro
Oh sorry! Won't happen again.
I guess I should just talk about my amazing work projects then 😄
My time is split between a real-time digital signage platform with a stadia focus (so lots of real-time sports data) and a cloud platform for a medical IoT device.
vast shoal
No worries, mate.
lofty gyro
So a large portion of my work is very ETL (extract-transform-load) and retention of data focussed. All our backend code is Python in some form; the signage platform is built on Django/Channels with GraphQL via Graphene & rest framework too however it has a heavily bespoke made-for-purpose cache & parse layer sitting ontop of redis so Django's main job is persistance, cache invalidation, event queue shunting and scheduled task management.
The IoT platform is still a work in progress; architecturally it's coming together, but it's likely to be similar in structure, but more decoupling between the components and likely a combo of Flask and Django.
opal perch
ok?
cobalt lark
How much do you think professionals will charge for a merchant site with user auth and payments (so using databases and payments api) and an iPad app to track the orders in progress ?
Around what ? 5000USD ?
cobalt lark
More like what ? 10,000USD ?
opal perch
I can't really say, but I'd imagine so, starting at 10k
cobalt lark
Am I normal if I do this for free ? 😄
opal perch
I dont know really, I mean you can set your own price, set a price for your hourly work, and then an additional whatever you want for the final product
but if you want to do it for free, go ahead haha 😄
cobalt lark
I'm not a pro (I'm 15 😄 ) I do this for a "friend" but i hope I will get something back
opal perch
someone else will be able to give you a better figure what a "professional" would charge, nothing wrong with doing it for free though
real plover
If you want something in return be straightforward, don't just hope you will get something and then get upset if you don't get anything.
torpid bolt
charging for software projects is very weird, the prices can vary widely and not correlate with quality at all
more on overhead of the company, sometime this overhead is used for good (quality control, process that avoids catastrophes), sometime it just gets in the way (people not able to even communicate properly and delivering shitty projects)
violet spindle
I charged $1,100 US this week for a 62 line python script 😃
15 of which are whitespace/comments
vapid jay
I want to do freelance work similar to that, perhaps by setting up a fiverr account, but I just cannot justify charging such obscene rates for something so small
Actually that's a good question, how many of you here use Python for freelance work and what service do you provide? I want to make some money while I'm studying
torpid bolt
nice
sometime these 50 lines are going to save days of work to someone else, or a whole team, and maybe create a lot of profit, in such case, it's justifiable to charge decently
also making short and nice code can be a lot more work than doing long and hard to follow code
rigid spruce
teach me master @violet spindle
vapid jay
@torpid bolt can you give an example of something like that? I can't imagine saving days of work for 50 lines
not that i'm doubting you i just can't think of one
torpid bolt
well, it's usually a match between somebody needing something they can't do, to someone who can, and it's usually quite contextual, for example i've spent a few hours writing a simple recipe that allowed to build a C algorithm for a cryptocurency in python-for-android, allowing them to have their fork of electrum work with decent performances on android, it took me a few hours of work, mostly debugging through p4a to understand what went wrong, and writting quite simple code in the end, to them it was easily worth a thousand €
unkempt ferry
Has anyone here gone through triplebyte? Would you reccomend that process to someone else? Anything you wish you’d known before doing it?
main thicket
I gave it all my info and I went through the entire quiz and everything and it told me I was suited for their top 28 companies or something and AFTER that it told me that they don't do internships/don't help unless you're graduating in 3 months or something
It's not really a hard online quiz. Weird system design questions here and there. Ruby questions for some reason. Some focus on backend server design that I didn't expect
unkempt ferry
yeah they only place ft on site ppl. sorry u missed that, i ran into that info rlly fast. mb they updated layout since ur thing? idk
main thicket
No idea, they only ever told me as a pop up moments before booking their video interview
I don't think triplebyte is special in general, just another recruiter with a fancy process. You still have to go through a company's interview process even after triplebyte
unkempt ferry
yeah, but according to them only the final one, no phone screening or anything
main thicket
the phone screening is exponentially easier than the final one in general anyway so that's not much of a win
unkempt ferry
I don’t think that’s much of a win if it gets you past all the pre screening of a few companies. Idk
Not*
placid coyote
has anyone ever tried negotiating for a higher salary after the employer's initial offer was already higher than your initial range?
torpid bolt
@placid coyote i did, because i had other offers where i had tried something a bit wilder and it was accepted, so i simply shared that information with other companies that had made a proposition, they followed.
placid coyote
that must've been great. i think for me, countering the initial offer is already a hard thing so reaching further seems even more outrageous
torpid bolt
yeah, it was quite ouf of character for me
vast shoal
When I was interviewing, I just threw out different numbers to different companies to see what their reaction was. Once I had a sense for how high most of them would go, I used that as a reference point for future calls.
torpid bolt
but at some point i figured i had to try asking for more, if only for science, and then that it would be weird to accept or refuse the lower offer (hard choice because i liked the people in the company), without mentioning the fact that i had a better one on the money side.
i probably didn't probe high enough, as i didn't get any no
but i'm better paid than my CTO now 😐 (though he's younger than me, so that certainly plays)
placid coyote
most advice/articles mention using your satisfactory range as a benchmark against how much you should try to counter but in my case they already blew past my range
but i know i might also be down playing myself to not ask even if it's already past my range but i guess i feel sort of guilty to be asking
vast shoal
If possible, try to interview with multiple companies at once and use previous offers as reference points and push up from there.
main thicket
You're worth what people are willing to pay you, not how much you feel like is enough for you
vast shoal
Yeah, this is a business transaction, there's nothing to feel guilty about.
It's a good idea to try to get paid what you're worth even if you don't feel like you need or deserve it, because you might end up feeling short-changed later when you discover that your coworkers are paid much more than you.
Or you might feel underappreciated, which is demotivating.
placid coyote
certainly a familiar situation
main thicket
Most companies would lay you off without much thought. You're a service and owe them only as much as you're contractually obliged to do. Don't feel guilty unless your company would offer you the same consideration for sure
ionic cargo
Is it possible to earn money from providing visualised versions of sorted data - So sorting the data then visualizing it -?
Do people look for freelance work of this kind? I'm 14 so I can't get a job but I know how to do this.
opal perch
Bare in mind @ionic cargo Most companies won't just hand over their data
vernal lily
its easier to freelance making websites
opal perch
They probably wouldn't even consider giving their data to a 14 year old, they barely give their data to trained professionals that don't work within the company
ionic cargo
Well obviously I wouldn't state my age.
But yes I do understand that.
Hmm, I guess I will keep learning, thanks regardless.
vapid jay
they will not do that.. heck they don't even trust trained internal professionals with some data.. lol
ionic cargo
Ye, awful question.
vapid jay
but, there's always people trying to make sense of their data.. they look for people to do some freelance work
things like putting stuff on tableau or power bi
opal perch
Well they'll ask for your age
ionic cargo
I wasn't really considering big companies but like the general people.
vapid jay
you might be able to, if you had a company
one of my friends was a student.. under 18.. he registered a company and offered website services through that
he was pretty good
then he landed a job but still keeps his side gig
vast shoal
@ionic cargo Lying to clients and employers is not a good habit. It will look bad on your record in the future.
ionic cargo
I never considered lying...
vernal lily
there isn't really a "record" between employers though
ionic cargo
If it came down to them asking me my age I would tell them, I wouldn't want lying on my record.
vernal lily
IDK what "record" people are talking about
vast shoal
@vernal lily Well, if you want to list something on your resume, you have to be prepared for the possibility that an employer might look into it.
ionic cargo
True.
vast shoal
Like, if you put on there that you did this or this project for a client, they may call that client up to see if you did a good job or not.
ionic cargo
Well do you think I should focus on building my github repo instead of looking for freelance work?
Given my age^
vast shoal
@split hearth Well, lying by omission is still being deceptive.
ionic cargo
True.
vast shoal
And the fact that you're 14 is highly relevant information.
vernal lily
but you can just take it off your resume
vast shoal
@vernal lily In the best case scenario, that experience counts for nothing, and in the worst case, it may come out somehow anyway. I think it's better to just maintain a code of professionalism in general.
ionic cargo
Hmm, I don't think I want to get involved with it regardless, too many complications that could go wrong in regards to my age.
ionic cargo
I mean I wouldn't be applying for a job at 14 😆 My plan is too build my knowledge for 2 years, get an internship, learn for two more years and then get a job.
vast shoal
@split hearth Absolutely go ahead and do that. I'm just saying, don't hide the fact that you're 14. You might still get valuable opportunities despite that.
ionic cargo
Mhmm, question: What kind of stuff can I do to build my github repo regarding data analytics.
pastel juniper
I used the iris dataset at uni to learn about machine learining/classification. Dunno if that is any help to you
icy berry
there are plenty of open data you can analyze, many countries have its own open data site that is run by the government.
vast shoal
kaggle.com publishes tons of datasets
Actually, kaggle also has a bunch of tutorials and challenges which may be of interest to you
vapid jay
hey uummm.... i'm kinda lost now about what should i learn. i wanna be a game dev so doing some stuff with python will help and i'll move to C# so that i can do more. but i wanna make money through freelancing and idk what to learn and how long will it take to learn it. so can someone help ?
grave cedar
Have you got any experience in any other fields of Python?
vapid jay
well, no not really.
i've created a couple of games before with pygame. like, minesweeper and snake.
but, the thing is: i wanna know something that there is demand on so that i can live out of.
hmmm.....sounds nice
dynamically load the code ?
what does that mean ?
i'll need PHP for that right ?(i.e web dev)
ionic cargo
Thanks @vast shoal , @icy berry , @pastel juniper
vapid jay
aha, but someone told me that it's not good as a HTML preprocessor (whatever that is)
aha! ok
i'll try doing what you said but expect me to come back when i'm lost again.(i'm not good at doing things from my head or developing my own plan, sorry😅 )
vapid jay
how ?
cobalt lark
(until they get hacked 😄 )
grave cedar
Make them custom for people
vapid jay
but how do you get customers ?
grave cedar
If you want to DM me im happy to give you a hand
i reallu suggest learning to use different APIs such as twitch, etc.
vapid jay
twitch has an API ?!!!!
grave cedar
90% of the bots i've made for people involve web scraping and apis
cobalt lark
Why it shouldn't have it @vapid jay
vapid jay
aha
grave cedar
yeah it's actually pretty good and fairly well documented
yeah explore the requests library
very, very useful
cobalt lark
One of the best library of PyPi
vapid jay
wow, that's one thing i hate about things that are very wide. you get lost in the storm.
grave cedar
a fun api to play around with if you like space is NASA's
other than that weather apis are often good for learning
pick a subject that interests you (like space) and see if you can find an api that uses it
then maybe convert that into a discord bot
😆
vast shoal
@vapid jay If you want to do game development professionally, you should probably look beyond Python. You could go for Unity and C#, but most major studios use C++.
vapid jay
well, i won't be going for major studios
cobalt lark
Small studios too
vapid jay
since i have a lot of work.
cobalt lark
ue4
vast shoal
Yeah.
vapid jay
well, i'm an indie
vapid jay
i'm just using python to train myself on the complex algorithms
vast shoal
I'm pretty sure most indie studios also use C++.
vast shoal
There are exceptions, and more exceptions among indie devs, but I think the majority are still using C++.
cobalt lark
Yep
vast shoal
Wasn't Minecraft ported to C++?
vapid jay
it's too complex for me tbh.
vast shoal
It was developed in Java initially
vast shoal
@vapid jay I doubt that.
vapid jay
wdym ?
vast shoal
It's mostly about how much time and effort you put into it.
cobalt lark
Python is more for pipeline in game dev
vast shoal
If you give up right out of the gate, of course you won't get anywhere.
cobalt lark
Not for the actual game
vapid jay
well, if it's higher than my mental capabilities can take then it's not really my fault.
and btw i've tried C++ and C before
cobalt lark
You mind is part of you so it's your fault (I was joking)
vapid jay
C destroyed me due to the compiler's stupidity and C++ got my head spinning with the references and pointers
vast shoal
I think basically anybody can learn to program in pretty much any language.
cobalt lark
Expect if your allergic to dots you can't do java
vapid jay
@cobalt lark well, that depends if you follow the eliminative materialism school of thought then yes my brain is me.
vast shoal
If you managed to make Snake, you're smart enough to learn C++.
You just need to study and practice.
vapid jay
well, tbh my snake was a bit broken. the head was a bit in front of the body kinda separated from it 😂 but it's that moment when a game dev transforms that bug into a feature by saying "i'm just making it clear that this is the head"
vast shoal
That said, learning general programming concepts in Python and then moving onto C++ is not a bad idea either.
I'm just saying that you should probably learn both before you seriously consider pursuing a professional career.
cobalt lark
If you want to make Snake there is a very good library made by a wonderful pythoner named akarys you can download it from pypi with the name pyxel_engine (actually it's a very bad library lol 
)
It's what I'm doing I'm learning the coding basics with python before moving to more complex language like c++
vapid jay
i'm tbh a bit tired of moving from one language to another. i've jumped from java to C# to python to C# to C++ to C to python back to C++. and almost started processing.
and at the end back to python
vast shoal
You should probably focus on making stuff rather than learning languages then.
And it's totally fine to do that in Python.
cobalt lark
You should focus on only one language and try harder until you have learn it
vast shoal
Once you reach a certain level, switching languages becomes more or less trivial.
vapid jay
aha
cobalt lark
Programming basics is the harder. The concept of variable, function, object..
vast shoal
You should find a project to work on.
Choose something you want to make even if you don't know how, then try to make it.
That will direct your learning process to stuff that actually matters.
vapid jay
well, you see, i have 2 routes: 1-what will i make living out of. and 2-My passion
vast shoal
At this point, it doesn't matter.
cobalt lark
Like a game engine : https://github.com/akarys42/pyxelengine 😄
It was my first project
And it's bad
vapid jay
wow
vapid jay
i want to actually try writing an emulator
mild zenith
I'm with dem on this, what matters is doing anything
I have the issue of sitting on my hands and worrying about what I should do to drive me forward, but at the end of the day, what matters is that I'm coding at all.
That'll help you go forward if that's what you truly want
vapid jay
hmmm......i'll take that golden one
vast shoal
@vapid jay Then you should try.
vapid jay
cool
i've wrote some stuff down here you go :
1-Learn Flask
2-Create a web game with Flask
3-Create more websites with Flask
4-Learn some db stuff
5-move onto Django
6-create 5 different website with Django
7-learn some APIs and master them (ex. Twitch API, Wikipedia API NASA API etc)
8-back end DBS and dynamically load the code from github
9-discord bots
10-convert NASA's API into a discord bot.
11-an emulator
12-a game engine
cobalt lark
Game engine !
vapid jay
sure, if you wanna count it that. it's just everything that you guys said.
vernal lily
front end too?
cobalt lark
Web game with flask will be more javascript than python..
mild zenith
Most of it will need to run on the user's machine
Which requires JS
Any of the Flask stuff is server side
mild zenith
Well, actually...
Something like Kingdom of Loathing would be fine as a Flask project
vapid jay
what's that ?
cobalt lark
You could just have JS has a socket and run the game on a flask server and send everything via the socket
vernal lily
you really don't wanna be sending every game command to server
and waiting for response
it does work
but slow
mild zenith
Would work for like.... Chess
cobalt lark
If it's just for learning that's okay
cobalt lark
= learning js
vapid jay
oh....
vast shoal
Which is also useful.
vapid jay
i'll download Node.JS
mild zenith
But I will say, for now, pick one and stick with it until you're confident in it
Language wise I mean
cobalt lark
It remind me I need to learn js for like in 10 days..
vapid jay
@mild zenith ok will do thanks!
mild zenith
@cobalt lark http://javascript.info/
cobalt lark
Thanks 😄
mild zenith
That guide is incredible, and takes into consideration all the modern features that other guides tend to ignore
cobalt lark
By the way python and js are interpreted language but in term of speed.. Are they the same ?
vernal lily
JS is a lot faster
mild zenith
It's... kind of hard to compare them, though
vernal lily
can be about 10 times as fast in V8
mild zenith
They're meant for two different things
cobalt lark
Like.. If you work with brut data like parsing data and doing some crazy stuff with it
indigo sleet
JS is generally faster than Python, but not in all cases
vernal lily
its very case-dependant yeah
indigo sleet
If we're talking V8 and Node, then it can be faster in some cases
that said, Python libraries have been catching up
servers like Sanic are at least as fast as Express
vernal lily
Sanic is the funniest name for a library 😄
mild zenith
I'm still a fan of fuzzy wuzzy
covert scaffold
hah that gave me a laugh
exotic verge
Should I specify what libraries ive worked with on my resume
like matplotlib open cv and such
this is for a professional resume
and also for linkedIn
unkempt ferry
Not that I’m one to answer, but I would say definitely on linked in, and if they’re relevant or you need filler for your resume
(ppl more in the know feel free to correct me)
unkempt ferry
Like, tailor your resume to each job you apply to. If those are libraries you think familiarization with would help at those jobs, absolutely. If not, and you have something else you could fill the space with, probably not
exotic verge
I get that.
unkempt ferry
^_^
exotic verge
how do you know when uve mastered a library
or is there not really a way to convey that feeling
unkempt ferry
From what I’ve seen, you haven’t and you shouldn’t say you have. (Aka, there’s always something to learn that you missed before, and it’s better to have that attitude)
I didn’t mean that as a u personally haven’t lol. Sorry
exotic verge
wow 😠
😄 jk
i know
I only really started computer science classes this year and with my gen ed push and engineering classes i haventhad much practice (for my own liking)
but ye ill get things under my blet
I wanna earn the Tkinter and OpenCV gym badges first
unkempt ferry
Valid
exotic verge
i wanted to jokingly act mad but i decided otherwise
haha
I appreciate the advice 😄
unkempt ferry
Np! Hope it helps and good luck!
torpid bolt
a lot of people consider me an expert at a specific library, and i don't consider to have mastered it :|, so much to learn all the time, so many use cases i didn't take the time to apply it to
shy pollen
What's the usual way to get work experiance?
And what's the process for it
I think you have to ask a teacher to first apply but that's all I know
torpid bolt
what's the context? because first experience comes from a first job, that you usually apply for, it's common to get the first experience through internship, at the end of studies, or through summer jobs
if you didn't study in the field you want to apply for a job into, it's a bit harder, but not impossible, if the field is in high demand like computer science is, if you can show your abilities in personal projects, even small ones, it can help a lot.
shy pollen
I am talking work experiance as part of a school
vapid jay
I’m bout to end this whole man’s career 😏
atomic solstice
What are personal projects that one can work on? I'm currently a high school senior and want to show more dedication towards a computer science major when I apply.
fickle cedar
hey all, i'm currently working at a colo/cloud computing database doing support and database monitoring. they do a lot of internal promotion here and i really want to go into Linux administration or Python development. i never went to school or anything, but i've done some simple automation scripting at work and am constantly trying to learn networking and how the stuff all works. what kind of skills should i be spending my time developing, or what are some good books to read to help me go in the direction i want?
my last script i wrote for work was a pretty straightforward one. we get hack attempt alerts on our old legacy systems that don't have a sophisticated firewall set up, so we have to manually ssh into the server, add the IP to iptables, and reload the service. my script automates the entire process with the input sudo python3 ipban_script.py [servername] [ip to ban] and it works great for me and my coworkers
aaaand i just realized that i saved my most recent version to a physical computer and didn't upload, and we moved our computers around yesterday... oh well nothing i can't redo lol
vast shoal
@fickle cedar If you want to get into development, you could learn git and create a Github account, so what just happened doesn't happen again.
If you haven't read it already, https://automatetheboringstuff.com is a great practical introduction to Python. There's also some sticky posts in #python-discussion with some good ideas for projects that you can work on to improve your skills.
@atomic solstice That last one goes for you too.
In general, check out: https://pythondiscord.com/info/resources
primal flame
What does everyone make of Python professional qualifications? The one I hear mentioned is from the Python Institute. https://pythoninstitute.org/certification/
raven vapor
if we are talking library names, beautifulsoup is my faviourite
atomic solstice
I am currently a high school senior and would it be ideal to add a discord licensing system bot in my linkedin projects?
undone helm
Sure. You could leave the word "discord" out of it. Just make sure you describe the technical complexities in a way that, like, a recruiter could understand and find interesting.
This would probably be a good place to post a draft of that. @atomic solstice
Even more than that, though, I recommend putting it on Github or Gitlab or Bitbucket or w/e your preference is.
languid sundial
So, I'm a mid level dev working on a really cool project at work- it uses NLTK to transform natural language into rules for an expert system. I love it. The problem is that it's super specific and I'm not really developing any transferable skills AFAIK. Are there any frameworks or platforms I could put on my learning docket to continue developing in this direction?
forest hinge
I believe you should be honing your skills as an engineer. If you have some code you're proud of you can save snippets on your personal github or something.
How many frameworks you know, in my opinion, isn't that much relevant vs. your skill as a developer in general.
If it's challenging you as an engineer, it's better than if you were just loaded with frameworks.
From my web development perspective, there are so many PHP developers out there that know 3-4 frameworks but their coding / problem solving still kinda sucks.
vernal granite
ive been teaching myself python for the past few months (6 or so to be exact) and i am just starting to get into ML and i already know that i woudl like to study it in college. the problem is i am only a sophomore in high school and at the moment no one really wants to hire me. does anybody know a good place that either A) hires younger people or B) prepares younger people for jobs? thanks!
i am also open to the idea of web developement as a possible career path as i just created my first website in flask and deployed it
rain tundra
If you modified someone else's code can you use it in your own portfolio? As long as I make it clear that the main code is not mine, and point out the modifications?
vernal lily
depends on license
and as far as I am aware, even with the most permissive license possible they retain copywrite
i.e. you can't, in writing, waive your right to copyright
in a software license
the truth is though a ton of licenses are untested in court
and until tested in court no one really knows
rain tundra
I don't want to claim the code, just the modifications to it as work I did. This is for a internship I'm doing - it's a really small thing
but when I am explaining to future employers what I did, I'd like to use this as an example
vernal lily
hmm I'm not sure I'm gonna let someone else answer
rain tundra
ah I see, thanks
main thicket
@rain tundra You cant just copy someone elses code and build on top of it
License matters
Go look at the original code and see what license it has
Have to be mindful
to be specific, if your code is being distributed to people, the license might apply so if you're shipping any code, it might force all of your application to be open source which is a risk
rain tundra
nah this is just an in house thing. Small State government agency needed a tool modified to suit their purposes
main thicket
Cool just be sure they know of the licensing of your project
Apart from that, yes, you can use that in your portfolio
rain tundra
I'm not sure how to check the license, but I am sure there is something : The tool was designed by a company called ESRI using their site package called arcpy
main thicket
Is it on github?
rain tundra
not that I know of: https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=067d6ab392b24497b8466eb8447ea7eb
they say to submit issues with the tool to github
but I dont think the actual code is their. I got it by downloading the tool
there*
main thicket
The code is on github https://github.com/arcpy/sample-gp-tools/tree/master/FeaturesToGPX
Apache licensed
But yeah, you can put it on the portfolio but it can look impressive or hurt depending on how much actual modification you made
rain tundra
ah I see, thank you
waxen kestrel
Is it hard to find an internship as a programmer?
gilded valley
Probably depends on where you are
waxen kestrel
Would it be worth to go to a coding bootcamp that offers internship, when I could just go through their entire course online as it's posted.
Obviously the pro being I save on thousands of dollars and the con I miss out on networking and experience. But is that really worth 7-8 grand?
warped light
@waxen kestrel look at the outcome report for the bootcamp
waxen kestrel
@warped light I have but is an internship really that valuable or would I be better off just self learning then applying for full time positions? Obviously the knowledge and potential hiring at said internship is worth considering.
main thicket
@waxen kestrel Internships generally only take students
If you're not a student, you'll probably have a hard time finding one
vapid jay
What's a good book to start out on / build up momentum
I probably won't be back in school for another 6-12 months
@vapid jay : Resources
The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.
https://pythondiscord.com/info/resources
oh wow a lot of free stuff
definitely bookmarking this ty @vapid jay
torpid bolt
internship can be useful to learn about working with people, not just with the tools and projects, soft skills are often overlooked
sleek heron
Hi everyone
am looking for a job in Netherland . would anyone recommend some vaccency
please
opal perch
a) not sure that's allowed (but I don't know), b) how can anyone recommend anything without knowing your skills, experience etc, c)surely a quick google search would bring up the information you need?
@sleek heron
sleek heron
@opal perch Thanks mate for your suggestion, I thought it place were ppl post the vaccency to which ppl can apply
vapid jay
Anyone work in a cybersecurity related field?
vapid jay
What do you mean? @mental aurora
mental aurora
I'm not sure it depends on what your question is
what kind of cyber security are you looking for? it is a broad field
prisma igloo
anyone know of cs related internships for high schoolers in the chicagoland area?
mental aurora
i believe that would fall under the channel topic of not for recruitment
prisma igloo
ah alright
mental aurora
you should talk to your high school about finding opportunities
prisma igloo
will do, thank you!
mental aurora
your counselors can probably help with that
prisma igloo
yeah I've talked to them and they haven't been of much help
I guess I'll just keep looking
mental aurora
If you just want to build some experience you can check something like volunteermatch to see if there are any reputable volunteer opportunities that are cs related
prisma igloo
alright, thanks
vapid jay
@mental aurora I need to do some general research then, since you know a bit about the field do you have any good resources to get started?
mental aurora
ah yeah i just fell into a company that did security online.. sorry
and not really a common type, more dns related
ionic cargo
I'm looking for a passive income, would teaching interactive python lessons be a good option and if so what would you pay to go from not knowing any code to oop.
gilded valley
Didn't you start learning python a few months ago?
If so, my guess is you won't be a very effective teacher
rare sand
not a very constructive answer.
old ibex
rare sand
@ionic cargo my guess is that it will be difficult to compete with the many paid options for learning programming already out there, not to mention the free ones (like this community)
and most of the people who are trying to learn how to write code are probably not in a position where they can pay much. lots of poor students, teenagers ...
I think there are better passive income ideas out there.
vivid dock
You could always monitize free sources, like an ad or sponsorship on youtuve
But again, huuuge market. Not easy
opal perch
@gilded valley Mate, you're brutal, the kid's 14, you can't shut him down like that
@rare sand Also the fact that people can go on edx and learn an entire semester's worth of comp sci/programming course from a top tier university. Kind of hard to compete against that
rare sand
yeeup
main thicket
What he said wasn't that bad 🤔 it takes about an year to get good at programming. A few months of study is rarely enough to do work on your own, much less teach someone which requires more refined knowledge
vernal lily
more like 3-5 years
main thicket
It took me about an year to get comfortable with saying I know how to program. Dunno how long it takes others
indigo sleet
yeah, but you have that kind of brain
vernal lily
we're getting into the genetic debate again lol
question of "how much does your DNA determine your ability to learn X"
indigo sleet
no, we're not even coming close to that
vernal lily
oh okay I thought that's what you meant by "type of brain"
rare sand
doesn't make what that guy said any more constructive.
"you probably won't be good at it" is a shitty attitude.
opal perch
@gilded valley Listen and learn mate, dont be so rude next time
gilded valley
When he intends to charge others for a service, I think its important that he can offer a service that is up to par. Whilst it's not my place to say he can't charge, I think it's valid to point out that it isn't really fair to expect others to pay for a sub par service
And whilst I may have been more blunt than was necessary, I think being unambiguous is important
opal perch
@rare sand But mate, sometimes it isnt the worst thing to be blunt, like sure what Piers did could have been worded differently. But if a kid at age 12 or so is like I want to learn the math for ML, like lets be real, odds are, unless he is a prodigy, he won't learn it at that age, and its better to be like "you have no chance, just learn something else"
indigo sleet
I wouldn't word it that way
vapid jay
well itd be better to encourage them to learn something basic that would help them learn that in the future
indigo sleet
it's not that they have no chance, because that's not true
it's that there's a lot of work to get there
I wouldn't discount the youth, though. Kids are smart as fuck.
vapid jay
rather than saying theres no chance - if it really is unlikely then say go for it and if it doesnt work try doing this to better your chances and work on this blah blah blah
be constructive rather than just no you cant do that
indigo sleet
I helped run a local coderdojo and at the end of a year of sessions we were waving goodbye to 8-year-old javascript programmers
gilded valley
I mean, I don't think I was exactly rude in the case above which I got called out on
opal perch
Never said they were dumb, but there's a reason a lot of math is saved for university level, rather than at middle/high school. It takes a certain level of mental maturity to understand advanced mathematics
indigo sleet
That realllllly depends on the person
I'm not a fan of being dismissive of anyone really
opal perch
Yea but that's not uncommon @indigo sleet , loads of people are starting younger now for programming, its essentially just like learning french at school. BOth are languages with their respective rules and whatnot, so that's not really a relevant point
indigo sleet
It's best to lay it out
gilded valley
Disagree that they are both like learning languages. Languages are a social feature of the human race
indigo sleet
it takes more time and effort to explain the whole context of your point, but
gilded valley
Less so with javascript
indigo sleet
it'll be more valuable to the person at the end of the day
and it'll be appreciated more than "just don't bother"
basically, let them decide if it's worth it
opal perch
well I would phrase it as 'you're wasting your time for now, wait a couple years and then come back to it', but what do I Know, I'm shit at programming lmao
indigo sleet
from my perspective, it's always better to encourage learners, even if you think they can't handle the current challenge
either they'll try it and prove you wrong, or they'll try it, see that it's too much, and move on to something else
either way, they aren't leaving dejected
we do want to expand our community, too
rare sand
this is starting to go a bit out of scope for this channel, but I more or less agree with what gdude just said, and that's why I don't think it's constructive to try to discourage people who want to do some stuff.
indigo sleet
right, sorry, yeah, getting a bit offtopic
rare sand
helping them find perspective is one thing but just a straight up shutdown isn't the right way to do it
opal perch
that's silly, kids are stubborn af, if you tell a kid not do something, and they were going to do it anyway, they will still do it regardless what you say or how you say it. Telling a kid, 'you go tiger, you can do this' when they most likely can't, just false hope
indigo sleet
well yeah but I'm not saying you tell them that
you lay out the facts and let them make their own decision
all any kid wants is to be treated like an adult, right?
opal perch
just like the ethan kid, every other day he's asked about jobs for freelance data scientist, he's been shut down every day and he's still asking
rare sand
anyway we can move this over to #ot1-perplexing-regexing or something.
opal perch
sure, sorry @rare sand . It did get off topic, I'm off to bed anyway, peace
near oak
hello!
is this a good channel to introduce myself? looking to learn python but I'm a bit lost
indigo sleet
#python-discussion is a good place to ask about that
near oak
@indigo sleet gdude thanks!
vapid jay
Hello, I am a 13 year old developer looking to work for someone (free). I'm currently trying to increase my Python knowledge constantly! (I'll also do c# projects too!)
abstract dock
Hi guys, so I have been applying to a couple jobs for a software dev position for fun to see if I would hear back from anyone and I've heard back from 3 companies, which completely destroyed my expectations (was expecting none). The problem is that I have no idea on what I need to know to prep myself for interviews and actually passing them. I haven't even started a crazy leetcode grind; I only did like 10 so far and I do not have any knowledge in algos which I plan to learn after I'm through with what I'm working on as of right now.
Does any one have tips or pointers that I should follow so I can actually pass one succesfully and obtain an offer? Any feedback would be appreciated.
vapid jay
people gettng responses from jobs they applied to for "fun" and i got rejected by mcdonalds okay
I wish I could get a job to do with programming but im not good enough as well as having next to no qualifications
main thicket
@abstract dock which companies and where? Not every company tests Leetcode
abstract dock
Spincar (already took an initial screening quiz), RedRoute (received a coding challenge on algorithms (75 mins long), and surprisingly IBM which completely caught me off guard (have to take a cognitive test and personality test) [all based in NY]
I have no idea what to expect as I have come from a completely unrelated field/concentration so any tips or insight would be deeply appreciated.
main thicket
CTCI is a good start from the sounds of it. I'd prioritise learning algos and preparing for the usual "talk about a project you've done" "time you've worked in a team" "how you handled conflict" etc questions
abstract dock
Awesome thanks will do that
noble spruce
Hello guys, i have some basic knowledge of python and i kinda get it how programming works now, i would like to ask, i want to be able or my goal is to create a full working app for android, should i stick with python(since i learned the basics) or should i try another language because that is mainly my goal
unkempt cloud
Apparently you can, and I've heard people talk about and recommend stuff, but a quick search on SO reveals this answer. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/49955489/android-app-completely-in-python
I would recommend just asking a simpler question like "What tools can I use to develop a Android app in Python", as well as searching for your own answer. And another thing: Ask questions like that in #python-discussion, not #career-advice
tawny quartz
If you want to create a Android app, then you should learn Java
main thicket
Absolutely learn Java
formal sedge
Probably a good idea to learn java anyway, it's still a dominant language
vast shoal
And probably will remain that way for a long time.
torpid bolt
i beg to differ, you can definitly do decent android apps in python with kivy, i can't believe the very alpha/proof of concept-level, beeware project is in the highest voted answer, there are absolutely 0 deployed apps using it, not even by the creator. It's an impressive project, but not anywhere near production ready
Kivy has some limitations (rtl support is limited, not entirely lacking, but far from where it needs to be), but a lot of apps use it.
indigo sleet
The beeware guys actually recommend kivy, too
torpid bolt
Yeah, saw that, that's nice
ionic cargo
Alright thanks @rare sand @vivid dock
gilded valley
From what you were saying in python discussion rock, your uni really doesn't matter that much. I'm a first year at a shitty/mediocre uni currently working with people from top unis on an internship, and I have friends (one of whom is from Portsmouth uni) in the same situation as me. You just have to work harder in personal projects which is generally easy enough if you're actually dedicated
@unreal vigil
main thicket
Depends on work. For software dev, it doesn't matter much. For ML, it might. More academic the field, more pretentious the expectations
vernal lily
you have the option of going there and then trying to get into a better uni for masters
gilded valley
Friend from Portsmouth is currently on an internship with people from Cambridge
main thicket
And less prestigious unis tend to have less rigorous maths programs in my experience. That can affect how you do even if the uni's name itself doesn't
gilded valley
With his d grade comp a level
unreal vigil
How much do you think it matters though? Would it be worth waiting a year and re-taking instead of going this year
I didn’t know you can change uni for masters
main thicket
Definitely can change unis for masters
unreal vigil
I think I’ll just bite the bullet and go this year then, I don’t wanna waste more time
gilded valley
I highly doubt it. If you're dedicated enough to do well after retaking, then you can just put that effort into self learning
main thicket
I would also suggest just going
Life is too short to try to micromanage your University
Good people shine anywhere they study
One way or another
unreal vigil
Indeed, sounds like a plan
As Piers said, if the maths for example is less vigorous, I should be able to keep myself on track with self learning
I mean if I have all day to study I feel like I don’t even need to go to uni tbh, but a degree would be nice
main thicket
People underestimate the amount of help peers and a structured environment for learning give
vernal lily
in UK
if you want to get good masters course
need a first (70%) in your undergrad
although with good ECs that could be 65%
main thicket
My estimate for myself is it takes me a day to learn in uni what I learn in 3-4 days on my own
Depending on topic
vernal lily
my econometrics prof was so good ❤
I wouldn't have gotten good at that topic without uni
unreal vigil
Wow
It’s nice to see people say positive things about learning at uni
All of my friends said it was a complete waste of time and peers were useless, granted they didn’t pursue very valuable degrees and also didn’t work hard
vernal lily
uni costs a lot so I sure hope people are positive about it 😄
opal perch
I'll give my opinion as well, also at the same shit tier uni as @gilded valley . I'm also on an internship where I am working with people from top tier unis, and not just top tier unis, but the people I directly work with are all PhD students and Post-docs, and the work I do is basically research, which would not be expected from a shit tier uni. What you do on the outside of your uni will ultimately be the deciding factor, a top tier uni just helps you get that foot in the door easier.
Additionally, imagine getting a first from a middle tier uni, and someone from oxford/cambridge barely scrapes a pass, at that point the university doesn't matter, but the individual does.
And like others have said, if you do decide that you feel limited by what you can do, do a masters at a better tier uni, then no one will even look at where you came from for bachelors. That's my plan at least.
main thicket
For most software development, uni barely helps at all
vernal lily
in UK Ox/Cam have "special reputation"
above all others
main thicket
ML and robotics aren't software dev though
unreal vigil
Yeah, if I wanted to be software dev I think I’d just grind it out in the workplace
vernal lily
networking counts for a lot too
gilded valley
Of course. You can't lie on the Internet, so it must be me
opal perch
@unreal vigil I also have a friend, he did music technology for his bachelors, at the same shit tier uni that I'm at. He's doing a graduate job at IBM for software development, and he was competing against people from cambridge, oxford, imperial etc, for that position, and some of them didn't get it
unreal vigil
How the fuck did he manage that lol
vast shoal
I would say that studying software and CS at uni was very good for my personal development, but it was probably less significant for my resume than pure work experience would have been.
main thicket
As I said, for most software development, a degree is very limited in the help it gives over just doing some work on your own
Software development in general has little theory and the CS theory is rarely used
gilded valley
It seems to me a degree is kinda the barrier to entry for software dev
unreal vigil
I’m more concerned about personal development tbh, I’ve been working as an IT engineer for 2.5 years now so I’m pretty confident with the work side of everything
I just wanna learn stuff
vernal lily
It seems to me a degree is kinda the barrier to entry for software devLemon did it without degree
opal perch
@unreal vigil Well, guess what the top tier uni students failed at, they were basically socially inept (no one wants to work with someone that thinks they can do it all themselves). My friend cocked the programming challenges, aced the rest of the interviews and bam
unreal vigil
Yeah theres quite a few people here who got dev jobs without a degree
main thicket
He does also say do a degree if you can because it was hell for him
vernal lily
oof yeah he did say that
opal perch
@vernal lily Yes there are also people at google without degrees, but you have to work super hard
vernal lily
ye personally I am super glad I chose to go uni
main thicket
You don't have to work much harder than someone with a degree
gilded valley
Just because it is possible, doesn't mean it is likely
vast shoal
I'm not prepared to say for certain that it's a waste or that studying on your own is just as good. I know some self-taught people who are very skilled, and some people who went to uni who just aren't that competent, but I think it may be the case that people who went to uni have an edge in terms of competence on average. Whether that matters for your career opportunities is a different story.
unreal vigil
@opal perch for real, I still visit friends at uni a lot and have discussed my plans with some comp sci peeps, the thing they always say is that the fact I’m not socially inept will carry me far, in a jokey way of course but there is a lot of truth to ot
vernal lily
also uni helps social skills a LOOOT
main thicket
For junior roles, Google only requires intro level algorithm knowledge for questions
vast shoal
And while CS isn't super relevant to software development on a daily basis, there are select situations where it's highly relevant, and it will matter to your project and how you are perceived if you have that knowledge.
main thicket
You won't be working much harder than someone with a degree
opal perch
@unreal vigil Yea for sure. If you want to go to uni, go do it, it wont be a waste of time man 😄
unreal vigil
Work experience helps social skills more in my opinion @vernal lily
Well I guess it depends on the job
gilded valley
Wrong @main thicket i know of two people who have both completed thousands of leet code style problems who cant get interviews anywhere
gilded valley
Including Google
main thicket
Can't get interviews because they have little to no experience?
gilded valley
Because they don't have a degree
vernal lily
could be their soft skills
unreal vigil
Sometimes just having interview experience can carry you really far
vernal lily
we can't quantify soft skills but they are super important
gilded valley
And possible, but that surely comes out through interviews
unreal vigil
Most graduates have no idea how to sell themselves
gilded valley
But through pre interview screening
opal perch
@main thicket you gotta remember, a lot of the initial application process, is a bot scanning your cv for keywords etc
main thicket
Google doesn't discriminate against lack of degree. They expect some previous work experience compared to a new graduate
unreal vigil
Wel google is the golden company, everybody wants to work there
vernal lily
I don't want to work at google
unreal vigil
Dude they have slides and stuff in the office LOL
gilded valley
Sure, but my point is they don't only require algorithmic knowledge
main thicket
In my experience, people like to blame things like lack of a degree when they have other problems than their lack of degree stopping them
gilded valley
Sure, but my point is they don't only require algorithmic knowledge
vernal lily
if you are in UK,
London has a rly nice tech startup scene
vernal lily
ye but london is also a super nice place to live lol
main thicket
They essentially do lol. They want some minor proof that you have some knowledge and critical skills and they give you an initial interview from which onwards you're on your own
vernal lily
oof
opal perch
don't think that's releveant @indigo sleet it's completely subjective
indigo sleet
it's one of the shittiest, most polluted cities I've ever had the misfortune to visit lol
gilded valley
I think it depends on the environment people like. I know some people who never want to leave London
vapid jay
agree its not
source: i live in london
unreal vigil
Question for you guys @opal perch @gilded valley
i just turned 21 few weeks ago, are there many people on your courses that are older like that? I’m lowkey worried I’ll be an outcast
gilded valley
I know I couldn't live there
vernal lily
I know some people who never want to leave Londonyeah thats me for sure
gilded valley
Yes
vernal lily
I just wanna move further in
oh yeah london is very dirty
and the air is kinda garbage
opal perch
@unreal vigil I'm 21, I just finished the first year of this shitty uni. I did a double gap year, don't worry about it, there are loads of older students, at EVERY uni
vernal lily
🤷
indigo sleet
coal dust, specifically
vapid jay
im surprised you even managed to find time to get diagnosed considering the state of the NHS
vernal lily
NHS is great
vapid jay
in theory
opal perch
offtopic guys ^^^^
indigo sleet
right, right
opal perch
this was a uni/careers convo prior to the london debate
main thicket
I have a friend with a lot of experience who wasn't getting any big N interviews. His problem wasn't that he had a lack of degree or lack of experience. His experience was all focused towards simpler frontend work, showing little to no algorithmic proficiency, systems design skills, proficiency with any other field than frontend dev. He blamed the lack of degree the entire time but the problem was lack of evidence for depth or breadth of knowledge
It's really not that uncommon for people to misunderstand why it is they're being rejected
vapid jay
im planning on travelling all the way up north for uni 
indigo sleet
in Ireland it's a pretty big problem
I've applied for ~30 jobs over the last few years
and not a single one got back to me
and I'm not the only person saying that, and it's not just tech fields
I wonder what it is
main thicket
Resume roast time?
gilded valley
North for uni seems iffy to me. No tech companies outside of the south/London to get experience at
indigo sleet
haha, maybe someday I'll post it, I'll have to anonymise it a bit
vapid jay
good thing im not going for a tech company then 
well kind of but not this kind of tech
unreal vigil
My mum recruits for IT/software dev so she’s always been like a huge boost for any resume 😃
vapid jay
live events and production im planning on going for
unreal vigil
Not a boost so to speak, but she’s roasted me hard on some resume’s
main thicket
That's convenient to have
vapid jay
my resume is dog shite
unreal vigil
It’s a godsend man
main thicket
My parents stopped being able to help me with my anything in like, 8th grade, being in a different field and all
unreal vigil
The internet is your parents now
main thicket
Textbooks man, textbooks saved me
indigo sleet
tell that to my doctor