Depends on the Quant role. A researcher role may require a PhD, but a trader or analyst or even HFT Algo development role just requires a bachelors
#career-advice
gloomy lagoon
But also a very quick mind
They screen with IQ test sort of questions
Programming as well but largely pure algorithms past Leetcode hard at top firms
PhD won’t save you there
vernal lily
is Leetcode good
swift veldt
I confirm that most algorithms, where I am working at least, are built on paper. Then the stuff is sent to the IT for implementation.
gloomy lagoon
Leetcode Hard tends to be too easy for most Quant sort of programming questions. For anything else it’s great
Codeforces top division questions are closer to the “stress test” programming questions quants get
I know firsthand
vernal lily
I'm never gonna do quant anyway I think
gloomy lagoon
And again, not Quant researcher
vernal lily
but Leetcode Hard would be good for generic programming work?
like Angular or Java stuff?
gloomy lagoon
Quant is a meaningless term but the quants who make 500k+ a year go through this process
Leetcode Hard just tends to be some dynamic programming questions with gotchas mostly lol
vernal lily
hmm okay
gloomy lagoon
Java or angular have nothing to do with it
vernal lily
yeah but I mean for interviews
gloomy lagoon
I mean I dunno why wouldn’t it be Java or Angular questions?
JVM internals or whatever
vernal lily
hmm yeah probably
gloomy lagoon
Leetcode questions are language agnostic
vernal lily
and then just comp sci stuff like Big O comes up a lot apparently
gloomy lagoon
Leetcode supports like 15 languages on the website
vernal lily
nice
vernal lily
want Common Lisp ":D
gloomy lagoon
Haskell
Especially because it would be fun to learn to write efficient Haskell solutions
Because you’ll have to learn the idiomatic Haskell structures to do so
swift veldt
Haskell is the language I want to learn--especially because I have a friend who's a haskell wizard.
so... free knowledge at hand.
x)
sturdy hearth
Does anyone here have any experience using Smalltalk?
vapid jay
no.. im not very good at smalltalk I'm afraid..
gloomy lagoon
Smalltalk really seems neat from a distance
vapid jay
Hey, For a career option is learning Python good, Or Java is good?
hollow elbow
Hmmmmm
uncut nexus
formal sedge
both, honestly. java and python are two of the biggest langs used in companies today
i would recommend learning both anyway, theyre both useful
vapid jay
Hmm, Seems like java is on the top!
i am gonna study java anyways in college, i am gonna concentrate in python for now
Seems like rust is another language i must look into
uncut nexus
rust is C++ just better
devout swift
Haskell syntax though
solemn valley
@uncut nexus Rust is not c++, it shares use cases of C++ but follows a vastly different approach both logically and syntactically
wanton holly
i was also waiting for rags to do it tbh, but nix would have been my second bet.
main thicket
i aint fall for yall's bait 
unkempt ferry
no recruitment, it's in the description
crimson lark
lol, ur right, could not be more clear. mybad
vapid jay
Hey, can you guys recommend some good books or resources for finding work, and passing the interview?
karmic bramble
!resources has a few books and other stuff we generally recommend. You might have a look on that list.
inner wrenBOT
vapid jay
thank you
mossy furnace
I'm looking to transition to Data-science / Data-engineering from a semi-tech role (change and governance). I'm an Engineer (the Washington accord type) and have been point on some BI projects requiring data modeling. My SQL skills are basic (basic queries, basic joins, some partitioning) and some SSIS setup. Started Python a few weeks ago and can do some basic data manipulation & tkinter to make it easy.
The resources on reddit /r/python & /r/learnpython are great but now I'd like to see if there's some advice for me to learn properly.
In particular I'm looking for a course that would look good on the CV.
main thicket
Ha, I love the "Washington accord type". I'm gonna start using that.
mossy furnace
Option 2: Microsoft Cert: https://www.edx.org/microsoft-professional-program-data-science
main thicket
Honestly, courses aren't what look good. Software is a meritocracy. You want to have skill and to be able to show it through something you weren't guided through
mossy furnace
Washington accord type is necessary, else they think I'm here to fix the loo
main thicket
Ahahahaha
Assuming your math background is decent, data science is probably preferable over data engineering
mossy furnace
Yup, Industrial engineer with Operations Research major.
#simulateyourgirlfriend'sanger
main thicket
Ooh OR. Lots of nifty stuff you can do in software with decent understanding of OR. There's optimisation firms that do lots of OR and write lots of software for it, alongside ML stuff. The ones I know are local but I'm certain there's more elsewhere also
But yeah, back to my point
Don't bother trying to go for courses. It's a meritocracy. Your knowledge and skills are your qualifications, not the courses and degrees you've done
mossy furnace
Been de-skilled in the finance industry though.
I'll jump on the "good first problems" and find a relevant project then.
main thicket
👌 Btw, that doesn't mean you shouldn't audit the courses for free and go through the content
mossy furnace
Only thing I really suck at is the CI stuff and, as basic as it may be, unit testing.
main thicket
Just that the cert doesn't have inherent value
The knowledge gained from it is valuable
Eh, you don't really do CI and Unit testing as a data scientist anyway
rare sand
I think that's a bit of a brazen assumption. If you're gonna do the certs anyway I see absolutely no reason to audit them instead of actually doing them unless the cost is a challenge to your economy. some of my certs have played well in my career. it is very hit and miss, though
but rags is right that they're far, far less important than a good looking github or other actual merits.
a good project will be 10x as valuable.
maybe 100x depending on where you're applying
mossy furnace
Definitely going to do a community project (practise/practice... oh english....) as well as a course (olive branch kind of thing), but need to pick one of the courses.
rare sand
my certs have occasionally been a nice bonus but my experience here with PythonDiscord has been a goldmine.
main thicket
$1500 is a bit much for an online certificate to me. Personally, I'd audit. Especially since I'd have to go through and do all the assessment to get that certificate while I can sprint through without them faster and get on to my own projects
mossy furnace
Agreed on audit. That eliminates the MIT one though...
mossy furnace
The full micromasters from MIT is 1350
main thicket
It shouldn't eliminate them
rare sand
oh it's a micromasters
main thicket
Click on the individual courses that make up the micromasters
Should be able to enrol then
rare sand
okay never mind then, I agree with @main thicket if these are the prices we're talking about.
main thicket
Also I'd choose the MIT course over IBM and Microsoft easily
rare sand
I might even audit them and still mention them in interviews if it came up organically. I've done that before.
main thicket
Any resources from IBM I've come across are trash. Microsoft ones are less in depth than they should be and they're often just a plug in for 'hey, have you tried Azure'
grizzled sundial
Considering how much I paid for my bachelors degree in the US, $1500 doesn't seem like too much money, but only if you can use that cert to get a job.
main thicket
A 4 year degree is pretty darn different from a online certificate
Although, the MIT micromasters can be claimed as class credit at a bunch of unis if you plan on enrolling
rare sand
"yeah I did the micromaster at edx but elected not to pay 1300 for the certificate" would play well in the right room, imo.
grizzled sundial
True, but I've met people who are just as successful as I am without needing the bachelor's degree. I'm always excited for people who can get their career going without spending much money.
main thicket
Yah for sure. edX is a bloody blessing
I'm doing a degree anyway but I've learnt so much from edX, it might as well have like 50% of the credit
Gone through a micromasters + a bunch of courses for $0
grizzled sundial
If someone told me what lemon just said, and did well on the interview/programming tests, I'd be head over heels for them
Getting my bachelors degree was 100% what got me into my career. I knew how to program, but didn't know jack about how product development worked
mossy furnace
IBM out (low quality); Microsoft out (Gimicky)... off to MITOCW we go
grizzled sundial
Just gotta get your foot in the door
main thicket
MIT OCW is my favourite thing in the world
rare sand
I have no degrees at all, I dropped out of high school to be a rock star. But (mostly free) e-learning taught me enough that I was able to nail a technical test or two and and land a job as a dev. so I am very grateful to stuff like edx too.
basically owe them my career
grizzled sundial
I love it! 😄
I can only wish I were well adjusted enough when I was younger to build a career like that without having to pay for it.
rare sand
haha. it was a long road, but yeah, it's a distinct advantage to have a senior developer salary and zero student debt
If I could go back I would probably get the degree though
grizzled sundial
I can attest to that; by which I mean I'm still paying for it.
mossy furnace
Student debt killed my first 5 years of income. Guaranteed poverty.
Glad to see some places shift away from degrees and back to delivery.
grizzled sundial
In my case, the absurd debt beats taking a job back where I grew up.
rare sand
it killed your first 5 years of income, but it took me 8 years to break into the industry. 8 years of bullshit jobs working at helpdesks.
grizzled sundial
So I don't have any hard feelings about it
rare sand
I even worked a bingo once.
mossy furnace
you could've automated that in python 😃
I g2g, awesome chat, and thanks for the help!
rare sand
just saying, both paths have their challenges.
grizzled sundial
The only reason I survived 8 years at the job I got after I graduated was because I automated everything and...just kind of coasted
It's true!
I'm happy that multiple paths exist
wintry temple
Any ROS developer here?
wintry temple
yep I meant Robotic Operations System with Python
indigo sleet
Whenever someone says ROS I think of Revenue Online Services
formal sedge
I just think of rings of Saturn, the extreme aliencore band
wanton holly
i do like some of the music from rings of saturn
swift veldt
Finance
A lot of work at the moment is transferring a lot of VBA into Python.
At least, in European banks. I don't know if that is the case for US banks.
vernal lily
does that pay well 🤔
vernal lily
are there front office jobs of re-writting VBA in python?
I thought that was more like an operations/tech department thing, which would be more likely to be a back-office role?
swift veldt
The naming can be slightly misleading. In anycase, it's often front-office-labeled middle office work.
Usually, a lot of compliance, follow-up, monitoring systems are still written in VBA. There is a need to transfer everything in Python (especially on notebook) to ease transfer and understandability.
vernal lily
okay yeah
swift veldt
I currently oversee a project were algos are being written in VBA (to be transfered at a later date in Python).
vernal lily
but I guess "compliance, follow-up, monitoring systems " is less likely to get front-office level pay?
swift veldt
indeed.
If you really want high paying jobs in Finance, you can look into EQ or hedge fund
unkempt ferry
Are there any fields in particular that are popular/lot of opportunity in Seattle?
hollow mantle
I know both Google and Amazon have open positions there.
vernal lily
Seattle is huge there will be all sorts of big corporates there
main thicket
Seattle is very big. Major Google and Facebook offices + Amazon and Microsoft Headquarters. With that comes a LOT of opportunities
vernal lily
I imagine it has a healthy startup community also
but I don't know how to confirm that 🤷
pulsar drum
Isn't MS in Redmond rather than Seattle?
unkempt ferry
Ok. I’ve just been looking through job boards and finding very few Seattle jobs? Which has surprised me a bit and is starting to concern me too. I don’t know my chances of getting a position with a big n tbh
main thicket
Redmond isn't that far from Seattle. Lot of people commute between the two
vernal lily
job boards are not great
look at company websites directly
big companies usually have a really good careers page system
unkempt ferry
I’ll actually be somewhere around with Tacoma. So I’m fine with a commute.
And ok, that’s good to hear. I’ll take a look there. Ty!
vernal lily
have you considered maybe moving to San Fran at some point?
unkempt ferry
I’ve thought about it for sure. But it wont be for a while if I do.
I’m originally from alameda and ultimately would like to go back to the Bay Area but idk when I’ll be able to make that happen
vernal lily
just start applying for work in San Fran
if you get an offer
you only have to have enough money to pay rent until first paycheck
someone I know online did that recently
they lived on the other side of USA
but went for jobs in SF 😄
unkempt ferry
I have obligations for at least a little bit, but I very well might do that. I’ve heard cost of living is atrocious though? To the point of six figures being close to a poverty wage? Any input on that from someone that lives there?
vernal lily
cost of living is one of the highest in the Western world yes
very very high
(I'm in UK BTW so someone else here can tell you better)
unkempt ferry
Understandable ^_^
wintry temple
Someone here who interested with Autonomus Vehicles?
vapid jay
I know and masterd all the coding languages
Took me a long time
I am.looking for a unique job
Not just simple
Something that can make me use my talent.
Show me that and we got a deal.
unkempt ferry
There’s no recruitment here. It’s in the description
thorn sparrow
hello
vapid jay
hola
marsh karma
@unkempt ferry buy van, park it somewhere. Sleep there at night. Do evrrything else outside the van. I have heard that ppl do this because rent is expensive. I have heard about one employee from Google did it
unkempt ferry
my parents bought a sprinter van and converted it into a camper type thing loo
lol
unkempt ferry
so, qnd correct me if im wrontg, im under the impression that web dev gets paid less than other tech fields including software engineering/dev. but it also seems like more and more of everything is moving away from desktop apps and towards web apps. has this resulted, or do you predict that this will result, in web dev being paid more?
vapid jay
Web development tends to be a big range of things because of front end vs back end
I think full stack / back end tends to be higher (at higher levels I guess) than front end/UX positions
unkempt ferry
ok
vernal lily
im under the impression that web dev gets paid less than other tech fields including software engineering/dev.no?
here in London Angular/React dev is one of the highest paying areas of programming
more than java/C# desktop dev on average
stuff like fintech and quantitative analysis pays more but that requires specialist knowledge beyond just programming
what you are saying hasn't been true for like a decade
swift veldt
Fintech is what I want to enter.
The knowledge asked is very dependent on the company.
unkempt ferry
huh ok. yeah i didn't know for sure, thank you for the input!
celest anvil
any canadians on the west coast know if there are government programming gigs in the Okanagan Valley?
abstract folio
So would I go far as a software engineer only knowing python and a bit of pygame?
vernal lily
Pygame isn't used by companies really
vernal lily
For gamedev? Yeah
abstract folio
cool, thank you
But that requires a new language as well
I only know python and a bit of JavaScript
vernal lily
But companies often have in-house game engines
Closed-source ones
abstract folio
And JavaScript is annoying because I need to learn HTML, CSS and PHP as well
oh okay
vapid jay
c++, java, python, html,css, php, sql, Js should be enough to make you 6 figures a year
vernal lily
or just one of those lol
vapid jay
NO, you need all of them. + extra knowledge about many different aspects of computing, should take anywhere between 1000-2000 hours for an ordinary human being using internet as knowledge source to master them
swift veldt
Python and work in front office or FO R&D as a data analyst/scientist and you should be set, tbh.
vapid jay
well practically one or two anyway, since they're more or less the same, understanding the first paves a much easier way and faster learning pace for rest of them.
swift veldt
Python for prototyping then you sent it to be coded in c++ at the BO.
vernal lily
Emporer you can definitely hit 6 figures with just one language
many desktop software devs use a single language like C# or Java or C++
similarly for backend, if you are hired as a backend developer you could be only using the one language that the backend is written in
vernal lily
as in a degree?
yes a lot of companies take non-graduates
ask Lemon he did that route 😃
formal sedge
maybe they just arent in my area because like
"junior dev: BS in computer science or 6 years in [framework that has existed for 5 years]"
like, thats not a joke
vernal lily
even Google accepts devs without a degree
if they are good enough
formal sedge
ive also seen ones that are like "must have at least one phd and be able to explain any incredibly complex concept in under 2 sentences"
that one also isnt a joke
formal sedge
i kinda just want to get a job
unkempt ferry
if you don't have a degree it will be harder, and you need projects to show you know your stuff. + i believe referrals help a lot regardless of if you have a degree.
formal sedge
im certainly missing some knowledge from a CS degree, but other areas of my knowledge are pretty great
main thicket
Some jobs require a PhD level of knowledge that's nigh impossible to get on your own. I wouldn't call it silly
unkempt ferry
The other thing is like, if you just meet half of hte requirements and think you can do the job, it doesn't hurt to apply?
main thicket
But i think most software places care less about degree than experience
formal sedge
@main thicket one of their actual requirements was "we believe that if you can't explain a concept in only a few sentences, you don't understand it" lmao
formal sedge
it's a stupid opinion though
main thicket
It's not though
formal sedge
explain finite automata thoroughly in a few sentences
swift veldt
The way to explain something is dependent on who you have in front of you
formal sedge
@unkempt ferry really? i always thought requirements were along the lines of "must have to even be considered"
unkempt ferry
you might not get a call back, but the worse thing is they'll discard your application
formal sedge
true
main thicket
Finite automata is a model of computation where your machine exists in a number of discrete states and transitions between them based on the inputs. Each state has some output.
That's all you need for the basic concept behind it
main thicket
It means everything
formal sedge
i can describe the basic concepts behind multivariable calculus but i dont understand that
main thicket
Can you though?
formal sedge
pretty sure
main thicket
Explain Gauss's divergence theorem
formal sedge
i said multivariable calc, not gauss' divergence theorem
what i mean is, a two sentence summary only tells you that someone understands the absolute basics, it doesn't tell you much else
like, i know basic calc but i can't explain the squeeze theorem
main thicket
Squeeze theorem is simply "if you know function A is always between B and C in value, and B and C eventually reach the same value, A must also"
formal sedge
today i learned maths
main thicket
I think you misunderstand. When they say you should be able to explain concepts in simple sentences, it's because you've studied something formally and gotten to the meat of the concept. The way it's taught in a class isn't how you'll remember and understand a concept at all
When you learn something in depth, you gain insight into the thing and how it works that's easy to communicate when you have full fluency with it
vapid jay
@vernal lily meh I think traditional jobs belong to the past, having the knowledges I mentioned also allows you to work for yourself, make money $$ make your own projects, freelance etc. could potentially go way above 6 figures
formal sedge
alright, that makes sense. i stand corrected
i still think making that front and center on your job posting is kind of dumb tho
main thicket
I don't think so. The jobs that a PhD does isn't the same job normal people do. PhDs require depth of understanding. Most of them I'd say understand the concept of the importance of being able to explain concepts to someone with an appropriate background to understanding
formal sedge
i think that can be summarized thoroughly with "must have a PhD for this job" though
main thicket
It can't really. The job probably requires scientific communication more than the average RnD job or they want a specific kind of person or they want to communicate their attitude as a company
I think you are still just apprehensive about the concept and so don't like it. There's lot more weirder things to worry about in the average job posting
vapid jay
they perhaps want to make sure you've truly understood the subject and are a master in your profession however majority of people who earn the degrees end up building their whole success around something else, things that might not be even related to their degree
formal sedge
"11 years experience in go"
main thicket
Years of experience isn't the same as understanding
I think you really need a comparison between a job in RnD and the average software engineering job, lol
formal sedge
maybe
main thicket
It's night and day in the way they work. To RnD, writing code is grunt work
formal sedge
theres also a chance i just think most PhDs are entitled and stuck up tho lmao
main thicket
And why would you think so
main thicket
I'm constantly surrounded by PhDs, between work at a national research org, a machine learning company and research and studies at university. They are some of the nicest, most passionate and humble people I know.
formal sedge
maybe its just my uni then
swift veldt
A lot of rnd is paper based. To give you an idea, a friend works in pure math research and they use blackboards (with chalk). Only recently do they start integrating programming and they use Agda or Coq.
a very niche example, I know
main thicket
Depends on what the RnD is for. Maths research will always be done on paper. It's not like there's anything physical to do with maths
swift veldt
Programming can be used to provide proof.
main thicket
...to maths?
main thicket
Maths is abstract. The research itself is a proof
You can't proof assistant everything
swift veldt
True, but it can still help a lot. His field of research is homotopy type theory.
main thicket
Type theory is like, prime candidate for proof assistant, given proof assistants are based on category and type theory
The vast majority of maths is not easily translatable to coq
A person researching differential geometry to analyse the joint behaviour near singularities of robots can't use proof assistants to any reasonable capacity
vernal lily
computer-assisted proofs take a very long time
and a lot of resources
and only work on certain types of problem
main thicket
Computer assisted proofs are a field of research in of themselves lol
HoTT is cool and all but far from representative of the rest of maths
vapid jay
there is 1 million prize for whoever discovers a 100 million prime number IIRC.
100 mil digits
vernal lily
wow nice
vapid jay
@unkempt ferry Nobody asked you for a reply sir
unkempt ferry
@vapid jay I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're replying to? Also I'm a woman.
vapid jay
Never asked for your gender or meant to assume it
unkempt ferry
you said sir which is why i was letting you know. im not offended. but i still dont know what your message was about?
vapid jay
@unkempt ferry Hi there! I'm syntaxaire the moderator. It looks like you're trying to write a troll. Have you considered:
- Reading the server rules at https://pythondiscord.com/about/rules
- Engaging in productive conversations
- Not getting banned
@unkempt ferry BRO I SWEAR does everyone in this server have short term memory loss?
formal sedge
<@&267629731250176001>
velvet kite
It has been dealt with
formal sedge
I see, thank you
vapid jay
@formal sedge being able to simply explain even difficult to understand concepts really tells that you actually can communicate well and understand stuff
@main thicket I have to agree that phd most phd people are pretty damn nice. There's a lot of pretty quirky ones though but it's all good.
formal sedge
@vapid jay that's not what i said though
formal sedge
i see you can't explain my argument in only a few sentences :^)
unkempt ferry
It's not a developer position, but it is IT. would it be ok if I sent my resume for suggestions/red flags review?
zealous ibex
btw guys, I'm pretty good with python and data science libs and know how to preform analytics. Does someone know where I can monetize this skill ?
as a freelancer
or where I can contribute to open source stuff?
vernal lily
just apply for freelance work
zealous ibex
look I'm pretty young but I'm good at what I do, I mean like remote. Because irl people just won't take me seriously 100 %
so I can also get experience, that's my main goal
vapid jay
just apply for freelance work
ye easy af
vernal lily
just try to apply and see
zealous ibex
Sure thanks, gonna take my chances
vernal lily
not much other advice we can give really
freelancing is a numbers/volume game
spread your net wide across many sites
zealous ibex
sure thanks, I will try 😃
vapid jay
hey guys.. I need some help with something in my resume..
I want to say something along the lines of I tracked data collection for internal projects by publishing dashboards..
the position i'm applying for requires querying skills.. sql.. not sure how to work that in there..
main thicket
For reference, I don't think you'll find it easy to freelance data science. To quote silicon valley, businesses want to protect their data; they're huge pussies when it comes to data. It's hard enough to convince them to pass over commercially sensitive data when you're em established company with a proper security properties. I think you'll find it hard to convince them to give you work. They'll prefer to have internal analysts or an established external business they trust
@zealous ibex @vernal lily
zealous ibex
yh especially if I'm 14 lmao, gonna try to contribute to open source then
vapid jay
does this sound ok to you guys
just want to know if it sounds ok to a native english speaker..
vapid jay
thanks a bunch:)
short locust
I'm currently a student in SoCal and the first in the family. I recently graduated and will be transferring. I just wanted to know as a student with an Associates in CS. I am finding it hard to find a job/ intern. any advice ?
vapid jay
yeah.. get out of Cal
I think I've said this before..
you want to get the skillset that will set you up for life, early in your career.. it helps if you're not somewhere that's inundated with tech talent..
the competition will be hard.. so you have to weigh your options..
vital moss
Hey guys, can you recommend a good source for projects/collaborations to get practicing in Python please? Just completed a course and want to start building a resume. Also have varying statements about PCAP exams. Some say useful some say not? any help would be grateful thank you in advance
grave gate
I second what charlie4lock asked. Would be nice to have something to do for experience and knowledge. 😃
sharp jolt
Thirded.
vapid jay
im writing up a study plan for myself.
Other than the Python language, what should I learn if I want to be a python developer?
vapid jay
@vapid jay Python developer in what?
@vapid jay Im not sure how to answer that question.
Like do you want to work as a web developer or something like that?
ok i thought thats what you were asking
web development
thats what its most commonly used for right?
python is used for lots of things
I do r&d
whats that
writing python libraries for my company and automating stuff for other people
research and development I guess
oh interesting
If you want to work in web development your basics are probably flask, rest api, some sql database and just learning like docker or something
they are relatively easy and fast to learn to be able to do something
with those you can already build a lot of things
how long does it take to get to a beginner/intermediate level?
obv it depends on the person
but just an estimate. what do you think?
depends how smart, disciplined and hard working you are
idk you can get to a pretty good level in a year by just doing and studying
alone it's much slower though
in a workplace you'll get better much faster
oof a year? dang
it seems to be pretty random sometimes how good people program
It's an old ass study but in the 10x dev study they found that there was no relationship between experience and productivity rofl
vernal lily
XD
vapid jay
how long do you think it would take to learn node js..
I know it has lots of packages.. but I'm only interested in the ones for iot..
solemn valley
Speaking from experience you can write useful stuff in node js without even actively learning the language
However I don't really see the point in learning node for iot, you'll still have to write the embedded code in some systems language (aka c,c++ rust etc (aka not node)) and your visualisation code could just be some flask or Django python app which communicates with the chip using one of the certainly dozen of libs there are
@vapid jay
vapid jay
im not working on end to end.. just want to be able to test my code and deploy to the device
solemn valley
Then I see even less need to know node, why would you even want to have know specifically for this
vernal lily
JS and Python were/are similar difficulty to me
in both cases the syntax is very readable
if you look at the source code carefully of the packages that interest you
you might be able to use them well very fast
like within a week or two
but at the end of the day JS is a different language
its not rly ideal to do stuff in languages that you don't know
solemn valley
no I mean if your only goal is to deploy javascript i dont see any need to use node at all, you can use one of probably millions of systems out there
vapid jay
my goal is to deploy python scripts :v
shy pollen
Ok
dark zodiac
What’s better Python or PHP? 👀
solemn valley
that is a question which nobody can answer without your use case...and most people will be biased anyways
vast merlin
sonic knot
It's not corect question in official Python server
solemn valley
luckily we are not the official python server
mild zenith
Regardless, it's not the right channel for that kind of question
vapid jay
Does red hat cert help with dev roles ever?
formal sedge
i would think no
vernal lily
certs rarely worth
bleak jasper
Wondering if someone here is from Belgium or the Netherlands and knows a bit about working as a programmer. What kind of places there are, what u need for experience, ... .
vapid jay
@dark zodiac each to it's own
vapid jay
I'm starting work in a year in industry in August, I know that I will be doing roughly half DevOps work (python on unix) and half innovations (not python). A lot of it is maintaining old code and possibly making it more efficient. For those of you who work or have worked in a similar job, what would you recommend that I spend time preparing for in the couple of months before it starts? I know I'll receive on-the-job training but I want to be as prepared as possible
i.e. What would you, if hiring a university student to do dev ops work, wish that they knew before joining?
vernal lily
do you know their stack in advance ?
vapid jay
i do not
vernal lily
then learn Docker, Docker Swarm, Kubernetes and some CI/CD Tools like Jenkins and CircleCI
that would be a nice intro to devops
vapid jay
Great, thank you!
vernal lily
ansible also
vapid jay
Specific to python, are there things that I should learn regarding efficiency of code in a general sense? like libraries or methods for doing common things?
vernal lily
but of course you may well use none of these
can't predict their stack
just getting good with python in general
vapid jay
I have no devops experience so I'm sure using them will help in a general sense
vernal lily
yeah that's what I was thinking
vapid jay
yeah I've been trying to but I'm uncertain exactly where I stack up
vernal lily
just take a look at some of the "typical" dev ops tools
and get good at bash scripting
vapid jay
Come to think of it I'm certain he mentioned github, is that included in the stack?
I really have no experience with these terms professionally haha
vernal lily
could be yeah
vapid jay
but yeah i'll have a look at them
vernal lily
there's not always a difference between paid pro devops and free open source devops
vapid jay
paid as in the software or the intern
vernal lily
the intern
vapid jay
I mean I'm being paid I just want to make sure I'm worth the money
vernal lily
maybe email them and ask
what would be good to learn before hand
they may well like that
vapid jay
that's a solid idea, I'll hit him up when it isn't nearly 4am 😄
thank you for the help, I'll have a look at some of those tools
vernal lily
it would be pretty funny if you learn all that and then
their idea of devops is just pushing to git 😄
vapid jay
i recognise jenkins but i don't know if it was from the interview or not 😄
it was a while ago and to be honest i'm not the best listener
vapid jay
Leroy jenkins?
devout adder
Hi
Can anyone explain me what a data scientist would actually do (as a freelance mostly) ?
vapid jay
work for startups
main thicket
@devout adder As I mentioned before, a data scientist will rarely ever be able to freelance
devout adder
I will read your answer about that 😃
main thicket
devout adder
Ok, I find that statement to be easy to understand
devout adder
But one could be a freelance for small companies? And what is the actual job (like an example of mission/data processing one need to do as Data Scientist)
vernal lily
Data Scientist is a really wide description
it could be for example
manipulating data in excel and making graphs
doing statistical stuff in R or scipy
or doing machine learning stuff
vapid jay
data analyst, statistician, machine learning engineer..
quite different
but sometimes data scientists do all 3..
sometimes.. they build just models.. with shitty code.. that's running for days..
vernal lily
statistician usually implies masters degree
data scientist is more generic and common
main thicket
@devout adder "small" companies rarely have enough data to analyse
vernal lily
at least here in UK most commonly statistician is for government
vapid jay
how do you guys prepare for phone interviews
slim island
depends entirely on the kind of interview
but either way, doing a bunch and getting experience is the best way to prepare
slim island
write a list of dot points of things you want to discuss
and prompt-response answers for expected questions
i've been doing this shit for over a decade and still lose 50 IQ points if I don't have my laptop/tablet with notes in front of me
karmic spear
That depends on what kind of phone interview is that.
Most of the times phone interview is 15-30 minutes screening call
where you would be asked about your salary expectation, reasons to look for a new place, small talk on your past experience and maybe 1-3 pretty easy technical questions
slim island
interesting
technical screen has always been separate from hr type conversation in my experience
recruiter -> hr conversation 1 -> phone screen -> tech interview -> hr conversation 2 -> offer
karmic spear
for HRs is also important to see that you did some research on company, so they might ask questions like "what does make our company attractive to you?" so you really need to at least check the website of the company you apply 😃
yeah it depends,
HRs can also do phone screen with simple questions for which developers would prepare correct answers
slim island
@karmic spear where do you live
karmic spear
there reason here is simple, HR time costs less that a developer time
Germany, but I did also interviews to Ireland and that was my experience.
slim island
crazy
developers are some of the most expensive resources pretty much everywhere I worked
HR dances around them
there are entire specialist recruitment agencies for developers that go as far as attending meetups etc
karmic spear
yeah, being developer puts you to a very nice position today. It's actually company is more interested in getting you on board that you are interested in them
vapid jay
i like being in nice positions
vernal lily
okay
craggy wave
@vapid jay ?
vernal lily
probably dirtcube is on his phone
lilac aurora
vapid jay
you have to be more specific buddy.. what do you want to do in life
ionic cargo
So i'm 14 and wanting to take up a job in python when i'm older. I'm currently new and have no idea of what types of jobs there are out there, could someone please explain some forms of jobs:
solemn valley
The most common ones with python usage (note that python is not always the most common language in the following fields) should be:
backend web development
data science (it might actually be the most common one together with R here)
and sys admin related stuff
However a language is supposed to be used as an expression of a certain concept or idea to a computer so if you can actually program and generalize well enough your job shouldnt be bound to being mainly related to python
solemn valley
youll often see python being used for obtaining and processing every kinds of data in lower or large scales to get meaningful results
there is basically the data engineer who cares about getting the data and doing meaningful stuff with the result, scaling things up and the data scientist who cares about how exactly you process it
and youll see python getting used a lot in that field
plain lark
My company has tasked me with finding a developer for our company. We will need them to scrape thousands of different websites (store clean and structure that data) and architect the entire thing from scratch. I am having trouble finding web scraping as a keyword in qualified applicants. Is web scraping an implied skill of some other phrase I may be overlooking?
solemn valley
web scraping at least for python is really just knowing how beautifulsoup4 works, Id argue its something every good python developer could learn in a matter of days or even hours
pulsar drum
Arguably figuring out how to store the data is more of a skill than scraping itself
Well, anyone can store data but to do it in a sensible manner is another story
plain lark
So scraping is really a basic skills I shouldnt be too concerned about?
pulsar drum
Not a basic skill but rather something that can be acquired without much trouble
plain lark
So then whether or not they know beautifulsoup4 or scrapy isn't terribly important either?
pulsar drum
No, not really. Any competent programmer can pick up a new library in a reasonable amount of time
solemn valley
Its just two libraries everyone with a common sense for python should be asily able to adopt
plain lark
So then I should be more concerned about the architecture skills?
pulsar drum
Yeah, I'd say so. Knowing how to write maintainable code and being able to parse data into sensible data structures
Someone who knows the library may end up being a worse candidate than someone who doesn't but has better aforementioned skills
plain lark
Thats really helpful and makes sense
what should I look for to help me identify someone with the better skills?
pulsar drum
Hmm I am not really sure honestly
plain lark
Well, if you think of any I'd like to hear them. Otherwise, thank you both, your responses have been helpful
sturdy hearth
What's the demand for programmers who can't code but are looking to learn?
pulsar drum
I don't think you're gonna get hired with 0 programming knowledge if the job is for programming
Maybe it's wrong to make such a general statement. If you have other relevant skills then 🤷
vernal lily
I don't think you're gonna get hired with 0 programming knowledge if the job is for programmingnot true
there are some graduates schemes that take math or other STEM graduates and teach them programming from scratch
pulsar drum
As a paid thing?
vernal lily
yeah paid graduate schemes
main thicket
What's the demand for programmers who can't code but are looking to learn?
Programmers who can't code aren't programmers yet :P
fleet wharf
@plain lark i'm not a pro, but i'll throw this out to expand on the "clean" and "storage" parts. how will the data be consumed? CSV, SQL, NoSQL, text, HTML, etc... that should determine the necessary skills to look for.
plain lark
@fleet wharf well the data will need to be stored in a database, they will need to determine whether SQL or NoSQL is more appropriate, and we will also want to build a user interface for it so some basic front end programming (html, css, javascript)
sullen rock
usually if you dont know if noSQL or relational then you should probably go with relational
like 90% of use cases are just fine relational
sorry off topic
😛
plain lark
@sullen rock i agree it'll be OK with relational but when we're hiring an architect to get it right i expect them know when to use them and how to use them
them being both nosql and relational
zinc fulcrum
hi
is anyone onlin
i am 12 yrs old and i wanna take up game developing when i am older. I know that python isnt a good language for development but i am learning it for soem experience
I wanna make games usng unity [like a platformer similar to that of cuphead] and i was wondering weather i should write in C#, JS, or C or any other languages
velvet kite
Sorry, under discord terms of service you have to be 13 years old and above to use discord, so unfortunately we have to take action
!tempban 566560673086177290 1y Under 13 years of age, hope to see you when you meet TOS requirements
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: banned @zinc fulcrum until Sun, 21 Jun 2020 06:04:45 GMT (Under 13 years of age, hope to see you when you meet TOS requirements).
vapid jay
feelsbadman
vapid jay
I'm looking at reports of coding bootcamps, and the amount of grads getting a job after 6 months is impressive, varying from 60% to 80%
vernal lily
yeah bootcamps can be good
but can be costly
its possible to self-teach this stuff
vapid jay
i'm looking at bootcamps to get me a job instead of learning the actual stuff
is this the wrong approach?
i'd pay 10k to just get me a 60k job tbh
vernal lily
yeah i mean that's the thing
if it costs 10k but gets you a job that's a profit
its gonna be a lot of learning either way
bootcamps are like "assisted learning"
somber pebble
Since there are a lot of website building apps online, will the demand for web developers go down?
main thicket
https://old.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/c3e9qu/d_those_who_hireinterview_for_machine_learning/erqkrm4/
For people who ask about ML careers often, there's good advice here
A bit more focused towards slightly bigger companies than the <20 people small shops that are around but good advice nonethelesss
sullen rock
I would be careful regarding bootcamps, some are good, but a lot of them focus too much on the technology and not the end means. For example, they might teach like jQuery or something, which is absolutely not relevant for future jobs. When they should be teaching data structures, and other core concepts that people should understand before rushing into development.
Also a lot of them are mostly web based, if you want a job doing something other than that, it wont teach you much. But there are some bootcamps that are credible, just not many
vernal lily
a bootcampt for fullstack React/Angular is a decent idea
brittle solstice
Boot camps are cool if you want to make websites for a living
vernal lily
I agree they are mostly a webdev thing
sullen rock
They can be deceiving in price as well. I asked how much one was just curious and they said it was like ~12k or something, you can get a masters degree for not much more than that at some schools from accredited places
anything over 10k for 6 months isn't really worth it personally
for things you can teach yourself
or just go get a mentor, someone who already knows these things, and have them teach you
unkempt ferry
any tips on finding a mentor?
sullen rock
they have meetup groups in cities
you can find your local city, and search for like "Python meetups near me"
they usually talk about best practices, how to network with people, etc.
you might meet some people who can point you in the right direction
or work on a project with someone locally
also check out open source projects on github
vapid jay
What did u guys do weekly or daily while job searching?
grizzled sundial
Last time I was job searching I answered StackExchange questions and worked on my github project backlog with my free time
sullen rock
when I was job searching a few years ago, I looked at common interview questions
a lot of places re-use similar questions, especially data structures based ones
good to brush up on data structures
sonic crystal
"Hewo I'm wanting to make a gta and cup head hybrid, I'm 3 years of age and I'm not sure if I should code it on my raspi or a potato"-made me laugh so hard, @velvet kite
quick geyser
how much years of coding experiences is enough?
like
is discord coding using java?
@here
I would like to code a discord bpt
rare sand
!warn @quick geyser attempting to ping 5000 people to ask if discord was coded in Java is not cool.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: warned @quick geyser (attempting to ping 5000 people to ask if discord was coded in Java is not cool.).
quick geyser
hmmm... lol
uncut nexus
LOL
quick geyser
I mean obviously the here command has no relavance here
vernal lily
lmao
uncut nexus
discord bpt ?
quick geyser
what in the world
uncut nexus
who lemon ?
uncut nexus
@rare sand
vernal lily
did you want this https://discordpy.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
discord can use like 20+ languages
quick geyser
o ty
uncut nexus
no idea, he like one of those police officers who gives you a ticket for no seatbelt
LOL
rare sand
you tried to ping here. we obviously disable it, but you still attempted it. that's what attempt means.
calling staff members "high a f" is similarly not cool. doing it in the #career-advice channel is even less cool.
and for the record, if you don't wear a seatbelt you're an idiot.
uncut nexus
rare sand
!tempmute @quick geyser 48H calling a staff member high a f after receiving a warning is not cool. the careers channel is for discussing careers.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: muted @quick geyser until Tue, 25 Jun 2019 06:30:14 GMT (calling a staff member high a f after receiving a warning is not cool. the careers channel is for discussing careers.).
gloomy iris
🤦
fringe heart
hmm wait, lemme put a white background
idk if it's readable, maybe I should upload the pdf ?
main thicket
pdf will be fine
fringe heart
wait a sec
main thicket
@fringe heart Are you going for business roles or technical roles
Because I'm getting mixed signals
fringe heart
business
but I hope someday to go full technical
I use Python daily for data treatment, sales data or even technical data
main thicket
I'm not sure I can help with non-technical roles, they tend to hire with a different criteria
fringe heart
yeah that was my thinking when you told me to post here
regarding grammar is it okay?
main thicket
Are you applying for a position in france? If not, you can use quotation marks instead of guillemets
Pet Food e Aquaculture is that normal?
I dont see any major grammar problems
fringe heart
Thanks for the review
I forgot to translate that part, "e" stands for "and" in portuguese
bright ridge
So, I live in Brazil and will start to do college next semester. I have gotten myself into a federal university here, that means it's public and that it has some of the finest students and future professionals. I've always wanted to pursue a career out of my country, that's why I started aiming towards computer science, and I've been like that for solid 3 years. Now that I've finished High school and started stepping onto the field itself, I'm anxious about the future, unsure of the possibilities out there, mainly on highly developed countries. Do you guys think it's possible for me, after or during the time in wich I'll be on college, for being called by or accepted onto a big company out there?
vapid jay
yes
bright ridge
synthetic answer, I like it 
Btw, thanks for it mate.
main thicket
Pretty doable if you're smart and work towards it
vapid jay
Guys am confused about the biggest decision of my life. My life's turning point.
Here it goes,
I have got an offer letter from an MNC called TCS must have heard.
And also an offer letter from a start-up ticketing website.
I specialise only in Python and machine learning, still learning. I don't know any other languages.
I am a fresher, just out of college, the final results are yet to be declared.
Salary offered by TCS is twice that the startup,
Many people online say you will get to learn a lot from start-up, more hard work, and you will just be a cog inside a big machine at TCS not enough likeble project, mostly maintenance and support.
Here's the question
Which one should I join? A big MNC or a start-up.
opal perch
I guess it also depends on where you are in life, I understand fresh out of college, but will be able to survive financially with less money. Where would you see yourself being happier or doing more interesting projects
rare sand
double the salary is pretty intense. I'd have a hard time justifying the startup over that unless I thought it'd be the greatest job in the world.
vernal lily
start at TCS and then after a couple years consider going to a startup
vapid jay
I too think TCS is good, because I don't have any specific passion of my own. I don't enjoy anything enough to make it my passion.
Maybe I can do what I want and learn new technologies on my own during free time at TCS,
Has anyone worked at big company, is there enough free time to improve our skills?
stable briar
Ask TCS directly regarding skill improvement
My company is offering courses and certs for example
But my friend, who works in a big company too, is not
Did you pass an interview with TCS or that startup ? I don't quite understand the concept of "offer letter", but you should ask at the interview what are the main missions of the job offering, and what other missions that company offers. Maybe something will tickle your curiosity, and then you ask if the company offer courses to maybe in the future work on that project
visual flame
Ive been contacted by a small discord server (around 1000 members) that are asking me to code and manage hosting their own custom bot. only problem is, neither of us have any idea what the maintainance price of a discord bot would be.
Im only 17 years old and got into coding a few months ago so i have no idea what i should charge for what im doing, how i should charge to be sure that im actually getting the money, where i should host. etc.
Ive been thinking of maybe investing in a small server that i can use to run all my discord bots and possibly some game servers for me and friends. What price range would i need for a small server?
vapid jay
check out optnode for discord bot hosting, it costs hardly anything
77p/mo iirc with a fair amount of storage space
visual flame
How is it to use? What should i reply on price?
vapid jay
also if you want your own small server, check out the google cloud compute engine. I run a few facebook bots on their f1 micro (1 vCPU, 0.6GB RAM, 10GB storage) and i barely even scratch the specs usage
the f1 micro is free forever
regarding price, i don't know. It's really up to you, how good the final product is that you can deliver and what you think your time is worth
visual flame
What about a safe payment method though? So i know i wont be scammed
unkempt ferry
you might need help from someone 18+ until you're 18.
visual flame
Yeah my parents are supportive
unkempt ferry
ok cool. paypal could be an option then, idk where you are of c
unkempt ferry
shrugs it's usually waht i use and i've never had issues
there's like, venmo also?
vapid jay
if you want guaranteed payment then western union is common
this is more of a financial question than a programming question though, maybe ask the people on reddit.com/r/personalfinance ?
visual flame
Alright
vapid jay
how do you guys find cheap housing when relocating to a new area?
swift veldt
Short term couch surfing, one-month airbnb
vapid jay
doesnt airbnb have an awful reputation for fucking people over
i am probably going to find some hobos to live with
do hobos have houses now 🤔
makeshift houses
its in il and im in ca
so i cant drive
probably have to uber everywhere
hollow finch
@vapid jay multinational easily
the big one
start ups are way less stressful when youre already financially secure and youll learn loads anyway for your first job
you'll learn to appreciate the good stuff of a start up and youll bring with you the good parts of working in a big org
vernal lily
I really think work for big corp for a couple year then go startup yeah
unless its a rockstar startup
even then its a gamble cos Unicorns sometimes go bankrupt without warning
having said that if you work for a Unicorn that goes bankrupt that would still look good on your resume
hollow finch
also one underrated part of working in a big company - generally projects you work on/lead have a very big $$ value next to it which is awesome for your CV
vernal lily
yeah true haha
I think though a lot of the choice comes down to personality
some people have that "startup personality"
if you know what I mean
vapid jay
@hollow finch @vernal lily thks guys.
I think I will join TCS, and maybe ask or try to get some good projects. Improve my skills on my own using internet. I can always switch anyways
vapid jay
India
zinc girder
College dude
vapid jay
JSPM, PUNE UNIVERSITY
zinc girder
Ok
zinc girder
Knowing my audience
vapid jay
You have experience with tcs
zinc girder
No fam. Try quora
vapid jay
I hear we can get away doing less work at big organisations and no one will notice, is this True?
Unlike startups
zinc girder
Yea but no future imo. They will throw u out after sometime or keep u on a grain of salt paygrade.
Try being a terrorist. But with nihilism as motivation.
vernal lily
we can get away doing less work at big organisations and no one will noticesometimes maybe
but not at a good organisation
a lot of the claims people make about big organisations are based on invidivual bad experiences
not every boss at a big corp is bad
some are but not all
equally there are nightmare stories for startups too
zinc girder
Thank me later
swift veldt
Being in a massive (think 200k workers) organization with a tentacular reach worldwide, I can assure you there are more freeloaders than good people there.
The Pareto principle is very real.
vapid wagon
200k?
zinc girder
So as Price's law.
velvet kite
@zinc girder Don’t encourage terrorism, even as a joke. Can you also change your nickname to conform to our nickname policy? https://pythondiscord.com/about/rules#nickname-policy
zinc girder
Nickname?
vapid jay
▾ S ô м ε s h is your nickname - You can change it on a per-server basis.
unreal linden
that's their username actually, they don't have a nickname set
vapid jay
It's still the nickname though. It's used as one when one isn't set
zinc girder
It says nickname policy not username.
velvet kite
yes, so please set your nickname, you don’t have to change the username
zinc girder
@unreal linden u are through
unreal linden
huh?
swift veldt
very, very, very large universal bank, Anton
hollow finch
@vapid jay work hard, the freeloaders will make you shine more
vapid jay
I get it, it all depends on one's individual experience, everybody has their own perspectives and you have to decide what you want to do and what you need to do.
vernal lily
at the end of the day
while individual situations may be mad
on average hard work and competence pays off 😃
vapid jay
Has anyone ever heard of imaginery employment policy called Remote Employee?
It is similar to work from home only you don't have any obligation to work on anything other than your skills and interest and also the pay is negligible.
unkempt ferry
what country are you/your potential employer in?
unkempt ferry
it dictates which labor laws apply to you? So it seems relevent, but that's fine. but maybe i was misunderstanding your question.
vapid jay
How can i start learning python from legit scratch? Please hit me up in the dms if u have any tips. 🤩😃
stable briar
Some good advices here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/c4qfay/learning_curve/ also practice using something like HackerRank
gilded valley
CodeSignal arcade > HackerRank
meager hemlock
im a sophomore but i just got my first job solely thanks to coding and what I have self taught mysefl its such a weird thing to be compensated for something I just do for fun
obsidian acorn
congrats @meager hemlock
unkempt cloud
I really wish I could snag a job related to Software. I don't even care if it pays or not, being able to do something and have experience on paper is all I care about.
Do companies care about coding ability when hiring Highschool students? I'm not like a beginner or anything, but I don't exactly control all the modules of python like a divine god sent from the programming heavens.
zinc girder
Companies care about abilities. You can develop them. It's not worth learning if u got no interest. Few lads here just learn it coz it has high job market, even though they suck at it. @unkempt cloud
unkempt cloud
I have exceedingly high interest in Python, but much less interest in other languages if they don't integrated (Java, for example). I'm just curious what would happen if I created a little Resume of the work I've done and sent it to companies asking for an internship or something of that nature.
As a side note: I'm perfectly aware that Python is not all that I need to learn, that I should branch out, but my interests are dictating my choices right now 
unkempt ferry
What about python interests you other than programming in general?
urban sphinx
plucky cypress
What are some good coding practices to get into? I'm a CS student and I've just started to learn how to use github in my own time, but what else should I be doing when making projects?
rigid spruce
Look up some coding principles/design patterns like S.O.L.I.D , KISS, DRY,etc
Then start getting more specific for python like PEP and pythonic way of doing things
vapid jay
Log everything
Learn at least basic security like input validation, avoiding sql injection
Practice good documentation
dapper bolt
Are boot camps good?
vapid jay
waste of money and time
vernal lily
its not as clear-cut as that
boot camps can potentially be a good way to learn and start your career
particularly webdev ones like full stack react/angular
there are a lot of success stories
but on the other hand, prices can often be high, teaching practices can often be outdated, and really a bootcamp is not teaching you things that you could not learn on your own
also bare in mind a bootcamp is not equal in prestige to a college degree
unkempt cloud
@unkempt ferry Python interests me because unlike other programming languages, it's readable to me. I feel like with other languages I'm stuck in a spiraling fit of errors which I have no idea how to understand. I suppose I need to get over that soon, or else I'll never make it, but, Python's my little hidey hole where I can learn algorithms essential to programming in general (path finding, general practices, ciphers, etc.) while not having to worry about why stuff doesn't work for no obvious reason.
vapid jay
I agree with @vernal lily also if you really want a college degree you can just buy one, literally, it's well known in many countries, even ivy league schools have scandals. in my country you can literally buy PHD
most people do this so their background looks nice which is I think efficient if you have the money
bootcamps have a lot of shady business because it is/was a cashgrab for some companies
you betta watch out
our education system is a fking cashgrab, and utter waste of time, it's like 1-10% actual useful info for amount of time you're spending there and money. and they expect you to do the work then wtf is the point in education system at all
this is why I quit highschool mid way, it was a waste of time, I could learn things on my own, still got my diploma, without even trying
unkempt cloud
I went to a minicamp this summer, it was only about twenty people and raspberry pi / python stuff. I went there primarily to meetup with some friends I found the previous year, but one of the instructors there is offering employment at {College} once I graduate. If I get a minor in Cyber-security and work for federal/state level for four years, I can get tuition paid for. Thoughts?
@vapid jay I think education is more trying to prepare the unprepared for life. Maybe education isn't for you, but it may benefit someone else massively. I think while I may not enjoy school, it does keep me on track in a sense.
vapid jay
education is for everybody.
I think it's at this point a proven concept
People romanticize people who are able to succeed without the normal education but they never mention the vast majority of people who failed because of it.
vernal lily
hmm for programming industry you really don't need a college education
even to work at Google
unkempt cloud
😓 I just kind of wished they would offer more computer science oriented classes or something (HS). 
vapid jay
How about vast majority of people who attend education end up reaching nowhere in life, having to work 24/7 to pay off their tuitions ?
software industry is not regulated like other engineering industries are and a lot of schools fail at teaching software engineering
I'm sorry but this is 21s century you don't have YEARS to "prepare" for life, everything must be done in shortest amount of time possible, education is not efficient
unkempt cloud
I have no idea what you're talking about
vapid jay
end up reaching nowhere in life? What does that even mean? Some people just want to have a job and be able to provide for their family and that is what education gives you.
some people just wanna code some dank python and buy cool shit that they don't need and education gives them that
vernal lily
but you don't need an education to be a pro python dev
so I don't see your point
the owner of this server did it without a college degree
unkempt cloud
Some people cannot teach themselves advanced concepts.
vapid jay
I don't have a degree and I work as a python only dev in a global company
Education gives you the basics and actual proof that you are able to do some shit
But without an education or just being stupid smart and self studying your career will probably halt at programming companies as a normie code monkey
vernal lily
can always work your way up the ladder once you have a foot in the door 🤷
programming mostly isn't about being smart its about hard work
vapid jay
what you said just contradicts yourself ynaboi
Programming is a craft but software engineering is more than just programming
Programming is finding best and most efficient solutions to annoying problems, it's about being creative, it's about destroying those problems and frustrations
Shit sounds like a bad python conference talk
vernal lily
lol
vapid jay
believe, achieve, list comprehenside, you can do it.
unkempt cloud
Improve, map(), Overcome
swift veldt
foldr(), foldl(), I guess they never rotate
vapid jay
@unkempt cloud If you want to learn programming and are a novice just start slamming code
Don't care if it's bad or not just write something that even remotely works
unkempt cloud
@vapid jay I'm not a novice
vapid jay
Aren't you in high school?
vapid jay
Kids getting smart already past novice stage in high school
swift veldt
Capitalize on being young to build a portfolio and learn concepts.
unkempt cloud
I was thinking of putting my stuff on GitHub so i could show people what I've done more effectively
vernal lily
yeah strong recommend a Github Portfolio
unkempt cloud
Do people do fancy custom GitHub pages or does a markdown documentation style work just as well? Lol I'm bad at web design. Really bad.
vapid jay
I remember my first internship where I showed my js and they probably laughed internally
vernal lily
try and mimic existing github projects and how they present
vapid jay
I mean I laugh at my own fucking code back then
Thinking of the stuff I made for them makes me cringe 😸
plucky cypress
Any good places to start with learning how to use API's? Never coded with one but they're appearing more and more commonly in the kinds of videos I watch, probably time to bite the bullet
forest dagger
H
icy berry
you should ask in one of the help channels @plucky cypress this chanel is for python in the work place, discussions and anything related to that field.
junior birch
What will be the skill set needed for entry-level Python developers in coming years?
obsidian acorn
be well versed in python, besides that, basic understanding of cs
static compass
Any good js discord groups out there?
vernal lily
yes reactiflux@𝖗.𝖎.𝖕. 𝖕𝖑𝖊#3564
vapid jay
What is the baseline I need to reach as a self-taught programmer before looking for a job?
a degree 
rare sand
don't be intentionally unhelpful.
I'd say you should be quite confident in one programming language, and have some precursory familiarity with another one. you need to have done at least one real project, and it's a big bonus if that project is on github and you can show it off. working with open source projects can be extremely helpful, as you'll often work alongside developers who may have professional experience and it can be a wonderful learning opportunity. it's helpful with experience from any other technical role, maybe you've worked in tech support or in some office job and you've written a little bit of, you know, powershell or some python scripts to automate something there.
involvement in some community, local meetups, or anything like that is a big plus. you need to demonstrate that you have passion for your craft, that's your leg up over your competition. they just have degrees, but you've got passion.
vernal lily
what sort of real project would be good to do for personal github?
all I can think of is make a forum
rare sand
maybe a bot for a community, maybe some website or webapp, maybe a game, a mobile app, ... it doesn't matter what it is, but it should serve a purpose other than "I did it to learn"
a real project is some piece of software that solves some problem. ideally.
something you can talk about conceptually, and "sell" to the interviewer
I also think you should have some exposure to topics like databases, and it helps to carve out a niche for yourself
vapid jay
a cheap bootcamp would help??????
okay so what you're saying is dive deep into programming and be useful
rare sand
looking at getting into web development? you need to know how to host stuff. you might need to know your way around a linux server. you might need to know stuff like nginx, css, html
if you want to do python webdev, you should definitely have looked into Flask, or Django
if you're looking at getting into more data science types of things and maybe your maths are great, you should probably know your way around scikit
but whatever your plans are, you should know some of the utilities that are relevant to that niche.
vapid jay
thanks for all the advice and info
rare sand
no probs. I don't know where you're at, but I took that route myself
I'm completely self taught and managed to find employment
full time senior full stack dev today
vapid jay
You're self-taught? I'm still learning a lot of the concepts, I'm running through a book that teaches compsci concepts with Python, currently in the middle of understanding recursion
I learned a little bit of PHP before Python, it's been like half a year, maybe a bit longer, Python for only a couple months
vapid jay
yeah I can see now that this is going to take a while
rare sand
it's tough. it's location dependant. you will need thick skin and you will need to invest pretty much all your free time
and you won't do that without the right amount of genuine passion for the art.
but if you're willing, it is possible.
I think perhaps more now than ever before, some companies realize how much you can really learn without a degree
vernal lily
what are the hours like for senior fullstack dev
vernal lily
you're like contractor or normal employee (not sure the word)
vapid jay
thanks, I can see all of that now. I thought it wouldn't be that hard but after hitting some roadblocks I have realized this is no joke. I am It's been an interesting journey and I'm taking the plunge it seems
must be nice
how much can you make doing that? Are you US? I don't want to ask salary but I am definitely curious if you could give an estimate.
rare sand
I'm a normal employee. I have a lot of responsibility and many deadlines, so it's like.. some weeks are quiet, others are intense 13 hour a day sprints.
and I'm in Norway
US dev salaries are insane
vapid jay
i havent been focusing on one language, trying to be a generalist than specialize once i get a job
rare sand
here in norway nobody makes as much as the devs in the US
vapid jay
god kveld
every job requires something different
im learning devops rn not sure how useful it would be
vernal lily
if by devops you mean like CI/CD, Git etc
thats always good to learn
rare sand
I make around 90k USD, but that's quite high for someone who has only been a dev for 3 and a half years.
vapid jay
yeet
humble elm
i was checking out a game dev salaries in norway/oslo and that is waayy lower than in the us.
vapid jay
game dev doesnt sound fun
rare sand
in norway it'd be hard to get much higher than that without taking a lead position, unless you work in fintech
vapid jay
norway has better social programs though
rare sand
norway has better everything. it's probably on of the best countries in the world in terms of standard of living.
humble elm
like under 30K sometimes. yeah i dont wanna do it but it pays and they didnt want any qualifications sooo
vapid jay
must be nice
humble elm
^^
rare sand
socialist democracies are the place to be.
vernal lily
can you reach senior dev in 3.5 years?
I thought senior dev meant like 5-10
is there like a cutoff
vernal lily
ah okay
vapid jay
norway doesnt have a lot of talent i guess
vernal lily
I saw the numbers for senior google pay in Silicon Valley it was 👀 👀
vernal lily
IDK I'm in europe
vapid jay
new grad with no professional experience
rigid spruce
Is intership the best way to go 🤔
vapid jay
anyway, thanks lemon, that all helped me get a better picture of what I need to do
humble elm
yeah idk get how it can be so competitive in the US, as long as you study something here (germany) you are fine. Some companies will even pay you to study something and then come work for them afterwards
atleast in the tech space that is
vernal lily
are there german companies that take english speakers
vapid jay
its a fast track to easy money
Just wondering
Do I need to learn anything related to Arduino to proceed ahead in Data Science Machine Learning?
Because it uses Python as well
rare sand
in oslo, a good dev can work wherever they want. there's a lot of jobs and not enough skilled devs.
vernal lily
Arduino is not so much a data science thing
vapid jay
everything in the US is competitive
swift veldt
@rare sand thanks for the overview. What do you consider "precursory familiarity"?
I am learning Python but would like to add knowledge of a FP language to my resume to be less of a one-trick pony in the end.
humble elm
@vernal lily yes, and you can actually go to most german unis for free even if you arent german 😃 we have a lot of people do that here
move here to study and then go back/stay here and work
rare sand
oh, I don't know, learning the syntax and using it in some project, but not going so far as to read books about the language and learn best practices and get involved in its ecosystem perhaps
vapid jay
getting good at interviews is the most important
humble elm
nah a lot of the courses are in English here anyways
swift veldt
Mhm. Thanks.
vernal lily
Lemon do you speak Norwegian at work
rare sand
nope
vernal lily
how does that work
do they all know English
rare sand
I think "getting good at interviews is the most important" is probably one of those silicon valleyisms
that would be a ridiculous statement over here.
vapid jay
can you name any University that provide free work to non-germans
easy af interviews?
@humble elm
must be nice
humble elm
the uni doesnt supply work to you
rare sand
lol, you really have a way of interpreting everything as "everything is easy in norway"
vapid jay
im always competing with 30+ people
vernal lily
I doubt there are any easy countries if you want to make 50k+
rare sand
interviews here aren't necessarily "easy", but they have less arbitrary tasks and filters.
vapid jay
I started studying German half year ago, but left it there, because I heard from someone that you need atleast 6 months of MNC work experience to apply for work visa in Germany
Is this true
swift veldt
Norway is very expensive and has high taxes (especially on alcohol). But QoL is very, very, very high and it sure is one of the best countries to be born and live in today. It doesn't mean everything is easy.
It's no utopia
vernal lily
every country is a tradeoff
you pretty much mentioned norway's tradeoff- high tax and cost of living
rare sand
they'll use hackerrank and they'll ask you to whiteboard some stuff and they'll put you through a lot of technical questions, sometimes personality tests and problem solving tests. but ultimately they're looking for people who would fit in well in the culture of the company, who are willing and able to learn, and who have a certain skillset.
but you don't have to memorize a bunch of interview questions to beat one
I find that absolutely ridiculous
humble elm
hmm in not sure about the visa thing... ive never had to deal with that cus i have dual citizenship
vapid jay
ooooof, hackerrank questions
rare sand
norway does make you tax a lot if you earn a lot, but ultimately that's not really noticable. there's only as much money in the economy as there is, prices are set accordingly. what matters isn't how high a percentage of your income you get to keep but what your relative spending power is
norwegians buy a house, a boat, a summer cabin, they have nice cars and a double door garage. and they do that even if they have modest jobs.
vernal lily
norwegians buy a house
I live in london :(
even the rich don't have a house
swift veldt
That's neat. In terms of trade off, france is bad for instance. Very high level of taxation with many hidden double taxation schemes.
vernal lily
France tax is suprisingly high yeah
cos the country isn't that left wing in other ways
Paris pay can be good though to be fair
swift veldt
The state captures about 56% of the GDP. The main trick in france if that you never see your actual salary (i.e. The amount the company pays to employ you).
You pay income tax on the amount you receive, but the company already paid a fat amount on top of this. So, when I was paid 2.6k a month in france, the company was actually paying 5.3k (the state shaved 50% already).
swift veldt
It's technically not taxes, but "contribution".
I mean "cotisations".
All in all, the states taxes 55% of all salaries on average.
vapid jay
what does france spend the money on
vernal lily
trains
swift veldt
Healthcare, army, a massive state apparatus, and a lot of useless and inefficient stuff. That's a bit too much politics, though.
vernal lily
for real though France has way better sick pay and maternity pay than UK so there's that
swift veldt
True. But if you were to do a calculation of opportunity costs, France is a poor place for employment in Europe.
karmic sun
hey on my resume if i got promoted, would it be ok to just list the last position i held?
swift veldt
Germany and other nordics are more efficient.
rare sand
@karmic sun I'd normally list all the positions I held
karmic sun
ok
i ask because the 1 position i held was not really a good programming job
then i got promoted to be a "software developer", even though i've been doing software development all along
swift veldt
As I will be trying to enter a more tech-oriented kind of career path after 4 years in finance (as at end of June 2020), would a diverse portfolio where I created many different projects be more appreciated than a specialised one, @rare sand?
rare sand
in that case @karmic sun I might've just listed it as software developer, yeah
and I'm not sure @swift veldt, guess it depends where you interview.
swift veldt
For sure, I am not expecting a clear cut answer. Thanks.
fluid kiln
Anyone have experience with coding bootcamps and their utility in the job market? I'm looking into Georgia Tech's program, but I'm not sure if it's worth the 10k they are asking for. Or if I'm better off studying at home until I'm proficienct enough to build my own portfolio
vast inlet
yes