I'm just reading through all these challenges, some are game related, which I'm not going to lie is a main driving motivation. I've been getting alot of info from "TechLead" and he advised learning Html->css->Java->python and other sources say just go into python. It feels like I should just learn ALL of them so many languages.
#career-advice
snow lake
vast shoal
@snow lake I would advise you to go directly for whatever interests you.
If what you want to do is make games, don't trudge through HTML and CSS first.
You can make 2D games in Python with frameworks like Pygame, for example.
No need to learn any web for that.
main thicket
(Though also python may not be the language to start off with for gamedev, there's languages with decent game engine support)
vast shoal
I don't think starting off with Python is a problem. It will serve your purposes for practice, and switching to something more advanced won't be that difficult when you're familiar with the basic concepts.
Learning new languages and libraries becomes gradually easier the more you already know.
main thicket
yeahhh but it can be a bit of a wasted time switching between languages and having to relearn stuff
c# isnt harder enough to justify that friction
snow lake
Yeah I feel like I just need to actually do some practice, I downloaded the "Master Unity Game Dev Bootcamp" from stack skills, and again that Python course from Udemy, I was wondering if there was overlap and fi it mattered where I started. But I guess I should just finish Python and get an understanding. One fear I have is doing all this learning and practice and not being able to find work afterwords. I graduated college with a degree in bio/business. That's the main reason I asked about good projects, from what I gathered this is a very skill based industry.
vast shoal
@snow lake The way to look at it is that there's a set of core skills which most or all areas of software development share, and then there's specialized skills for certain areas. Learning game development will teach you basic programming, data structures and algorithms, which will benefit you in other areas as well, but it will also teach you graphics, simulated physics, etc, which will be less useful in most (but not all) other areas.
There are a lot of jobs in game development (depending on where you're located), but there are way way more in for example web development.
So, learning game development won't be a complete waste of time if you're going to be applying for webdev jobs in the future, but it would be more efficient to focus on actually doing web development.
That said, there's value in gaining experience in different areas. It will be easier to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. I. e., recognizing what knowledge is general and what is more specific. It'll make it easier to pick up new skills later on, which is something you will have to do continuously throughout your career.
snow lake
Sorry for late response, it seems like a I can't go "wrong" just having an interest in all of them, and that is becomes easier as time goes on. Are there networking opportunities on this discord for careers and projects?
btw thank you so much for the long detailed response
vast shoal
You can't go wrong, but if your time is very limited, you might want to focus your efforts towards whatever your goal is.
main thicket
Define networking opportunities? We can help you make decisions and point towards where to go for projects but actual career opportunities will be far and in between until we have a job board or something. I've had a couple people send me a "if you ever wanna work for <my company>, I'll be happy to give a referral" from this server
But that's the extent of the proper career opportunities you can get
snow lake
I was asking for career opportunities like firms. Are most higher ranked users here hobbyists and mentors?
main thicket
We have pretty famous Python people here (they'll have Rockstar roles). We have a fair few experienced and talented people here. Lots of hobbyists too though.
limpid hollow
@noble kelp You should check out https://www.datafordemocracy.org/ Maybe you can volunteer to help on a project.
limpid hollow
For someone who is extremely passionate about Python and keen on staying on the cutting edge in Python, what are some of the most exciting companies (or specific teams/projects within companies) to work for in 2019?
pallid pendant
Man, I keep hearing about many companies never hiring eternally, and only hire for temp contracts that only happen threw recruiters.
main thicket
Common in government agencies that have a limit on the number of full timers they can hire. For companies, it probably means they don't have to train and maintain devs
pallid pendant
yeah it was for amazon corporate HQ
muted trail
@obsidian acorn i am interviewing rn
hi anyone here who gave OA2 for SDE1 amazon
what questions u face
d
muted trail
anyone who gave OA2 recently
pallid pendant
yeah which totally sucks, since I am currently work at one of their warehouses
jovial obsidian
Hey guys, i got a job offer from google but it's as a data technician for $15/hour.. on the other hand freddie mac offered me a position as a full-stack developer at $35/hour. I was wondering if having google on my resume would be such a huge plus or worth it compared to the $35/hour
vapid jay
it will be a huge plus..
I assume it's a contractor position.. since it's low pay? @jovial obsidian
it solely depends on your priorities.. having that tag on your resume is a huge plus.. but if you need the money badly, choose the latter.. also consider that you get free food at the former, so it salary-expenses wise might be the same either way..
jovial obsidian
@vapid jay yea it's a contract position for 6 months. im gonna ask them tomorrow if there are potential permanent positions / growth opportunities after the 6 month is over
i don't really need the money atm but if i took the other job i'd like to get my own apt. i live with my parents rn so if i took the google one it's so close to my parents i'd jus stay here
vapid jay
good luck!
jovial obsidian
THANKS 😮
umbral valley
Well the problem with taking the google position is, yeah it says google. But it’s not actually in development. So it probably won’t be THAT useful
Id value the actual development experience over google on resume, personally
loud delta
Hey guys/gals
I’m new here but really could use some advice
As someone who graduated (big state college, not prestigious) 2 years ago with dual bachelors in EE + Biometrics... what on earth can I do to get a developer job ASAP?
vapid jay
what domain and language are you familiar with
loud delta
Ok so for reference I’ve been programming since 6th grade when my mom put me in an upper-level python class lol
upper fjord
@loud delta Prove your skill by posting projects onto github and link your github into ur resume.
loud delta
But pretty much all my experience is from school classes. 2years of a CS track in high school and then 5 years of CS classes in college, overwhelmingly Java, but one class used C
upper fjord
Create a linkedin profile that u put time into with profile picture, descriptions etc.. also link ur github there and put ur most valued projects directly into linkedin
loud delta
And tons of matlab if that’s relevant at all
@upper fjord ok sweet thanks
I have done that, problem is the majority of my professional experience is in strictly EE roles
So recruiters always tag me as a “hardware guy” and contact me about EE roles
And my gf is pregnant 😅 so we’re moving back to my hometown (DC metro area) and I need to snag a full time position somewhere as soon as humanly possible
But I hate EE
upper fjord
So make that the small part of your linkedin profile. In your description write things like "Daily programmer in languages such as, Java, C, Python. Likes new challenges and open for new opportunities"
loud delta
And mostly failed out of the 3-4 interviews I tried a couple months back for software positions
Do you think it’d be worth minimizing the amount of words on my linkedin about anything EE-related
Or even remove that stuff entirely?
vapid jay
if you're familiar with EE... try jobs in embedding..
upper fjord
but minimize
loud delta
Ok
upper fjord
Especially in your title and description
vapid jay
there's a demand for programmers who are familiar with networks, etc in embedded.. developer positions..
loud delta
Alrighty
I mean I’d be cool with even the low level grunt getting paid $20/hr
If someone offered me something like that
Just so I can get paid while racking up some experience learning from senior devs
upper fjord
This is my title for an example "Innovative IT lover eating through life 8b in a B | Broad IT knowledge | Networking | Python Enthusiast |"
Truth is I like python, wouldnt really call me a enthusiast because then I would have trouble to stop coding which is not a problem. But it sounds good
vapid jay
too overqualified for low level grunt.. find your niche..
loud delta
Oh really lol alright
vapid jay
it's not that you need to make use of your developer skills or programming skills alone..
I suck as a 'programmer' but that's not what I am.. I'm an EE+ major too..
loud delta
Orly
vapid jay
there's a certain subset of positions.. that need a multitude of skills..
phone manufacturers for example..need people who can do c++ etc, working on tiny aspects of communication protocols, etc..
loud delta
Well my github has been pretty empty these past few years. So a few weeks ago I dropped everything and said ok fuck all these hardware jobs. I’m going to learn the maximum amount of python I can and push hard for any kind of dev job in my area
I got heavily into the cryptocurrency space in 2017
So I started building myself a trading bot
vapid jay
if you're good at building stuff.. you can look at temp positions.. that need tooling support for projects at large companies..
headhunting agencies often recruit for those..
loud delta
So far I’ve tied together some API wrappers for Deribit (BTC margin trading exchange), am writing my own GUI in tkinter, and experimenting with some async processing and soon an auto-trading algo
Idk if that’s good enough though
vapid jay
pay is quite good too.. all you need is to showcase your projects, and interview wont test you heavy on algorithms and stuff
loud delta
Ok lol....every position I’ve gotten interviews for tested me hard
vapid jay
like I said.. find your niche..
loud delta
One was for a big bank and they basically told me up front they’d only hire geniuses. Thought I did well in the coding questions in the interview and stumbled a bit on the fundamentals questions like “explain functional programming/encapsulation/ the purpose of object-oriented programming”
But the recruiter came back and said the bank basically said I sucked lol
Said I seemed unprepared and not knowledgeable enough in general coding stuff
which at the time I hadn’t been programming for myself lately. Which is why I’m practicing now
vapid jay
you're reiterating the scenario I stated..
if they test you on these things and you don't deliver, you dont fit their criteria..
find positions where you do..
loud delta
Alright so it’ll basically be sort of a numbers game for me?
vapid jay
your immediate goal is short term.. so focus on that and study for the next position after you're employed
loud delta
Yeah
That’s what I’m trying to do
I’ll literally take anything
Anything not hardware + circuits
That’s all the recruiters contact me for though. Guess I should revise my linkedin heavily
vapid jay
yeah..that's not the attitude.. HR can smell desperation.. you need to convey that they need you
upper fjord
You should act like if they dont want to hire u know its nothing. U got 5 other companies that are pulling ur shirt
Confidence is like 50%
loud delta
Wow alright. noted
Thanks
It just freaks me out. I applied to so many SW positions a few months ago and out of the few that called back, I somehow bombed the interviews
I’ll remember the finding your niche thing
I’m definitely not good at all with webdev lol. Which is what it seems 80% of jobs out there want
And no real professional experience doesn’t help much but everything I read suggests that there’s so many CS jobs that it shouldn’t matter
vapid jay
- There are lots of CS jobs out there..
- No one's objective is to land every kind of CS job, because that's not realistic. Every one of them demands a specific subset of skills
- Doesn't matter what the vast majority of openings you come across want. What matters is the skills you have and the open position that'll suit and need those
candid vortex
@loud delta i would read So Good They can't ignore you by Cal Newport
Not specifically about interviews or software
But it's a great pragmatic book about making yourself valuable to employers
Or clients if you're freelancing etc. People who give you money.
Basically it's about learning rare and valuable skills, Career capital.
upper fjord
Hi, could anyone give feedback on my title on linkedin? I would like to get python related jobs later on and its my understanding that you should include what you want and not what you currently do in ur title.
"Innovative IT lover eating through life 8b in a B | Broad IT knowledge | Networking | Python Enthusiast |"
Personally I liked this at first, what has made me not like it as much as time passes is the first line "Innovative IT lover eating through life 8b in a B "
Because it feels a bit unprofessional. I do like the pun tho, it shows creativity.
What do you think?
vapid jay
Feels bad man that you have to study job interviews to actually get a job
@upper fjord Sounds like a pretty damn cheesy linkedin line
I think I have something like "I like python" in my linkedin
upper fjord
In comparison that sounds dull and boring tho.
vapid jay
I don't know anyone who cares about linkedin except some weird HR people and all these idk even what to call those people who just connect with everyone
That is for programming
jaunty steppe
Recruiter spam
vapid jay
Yeah
But no real workplace has ever asked for my linkedin lol
Maybe it's just cultural I don't know
I mean they'd never be like "damn this guy knows his stuff but... his linkedin title is fucking whack..."
upper fjord
Well the purpose of the title is to make it easier for people to find you. By using tag words as Python if u are looking for python related jobs for an example.
At the same time you want it to stand out from the rest, so you stand out.
vapid jay
I hate people that put too many pipes in their linkedin
well maybe hate is a strong word..
but usually it's the 'entrepreneur' types
upper fjord
I add it to clearly divide up different subjects or interests. Can u suggest a better delimiter?
After all I asked for feedback and not a roast 😉
vapid jay
aww..
well it should relate to your field
Networking | Masters in something | some specific expertise that's highly sought after
upper fjord
Im not a master in anything so I cant put that out there lol 😄
Maybe something like "Python Data Scraper" considering that is what I have most experience in.
Btw, I thought u didnt like pipes 😃
vapid jay
too many pipes..
upper fjord
Oh ok
vapid jay
people see that and they think.. amateur..
best to keep it short, succinct
how about Data Wrangler..
Networking | Data Wrangler | Python
sells
upper fjord
Would u say "Junior Python Dev" sounds bad?
vapid jay
that would be related to title
upper fjord
I googled the def of junior and it seems to fit me.
vapid jay
Networking | Python | Development
yes but if you also put that in your profile under job description or info.. it's redundant in the title
upper fjord
Y true, maybe I should hide that away in the description or something instead.
I dont want to discourage people from clicking on my profile just because it says "junior
Ive been thinking if I should also clarify that it is computer networks and not just networking as people might assume I mean social networking
vapid jay
master the art of keyword stuffing..
by focusing on quality..
do you have a certification
that would be adequate to clarifiy..
upper fjord
I have academic certifications but not official cisco ones.
vapid jay
Networking (certification/qualification name)
upper fjord
It the exact same as the cisco cert (knowledge wise) but the difference is that its the school that gave me it and not cisco.
upper fjord
Dont remember the exact name but its something like Acadmic CCNA 1-4. But Ive read a bit on it and it seems like academic certs are considered uselss.
have ccnp also but academic.
Might be better to just be somewhat general with the networking part. But still clarify that it is computer network and not any other type
"Computer Networks | Python & Task Automation Developer"
Maybe?
Task automation not necessarly with python (Ive started to use AHK to automate certain tasks at work to reduce work load)
vapid jay
you could've kept the pipes.. lol
are the black small squares visible.. in your profile
main thicket
@loud delta I too recommend focusing on embedded
Hardware experience becomes preferable and fewer CS people have skills to compete
upper fjord
@vapid jay They should be as Ive taken them from a list of symbols that work for linkedin. Have not tried it yet as I am currently trying to improve upon my description
My linked in description so far
"Skills:
☛ Junior Python Developer
☛ Task Automation Developer
Experience in:
✔ Cisco networking units
✔ Computer networks
✔ Windows
✔ Linux
Let me tell you about Jonas, Jonas is a guy that likes to spend his time coding Python, discussing Python and helping other people with Python related problems in the Python Discord server.
He also likes to take roles in companies and making them obselete by automating the whole work process for the company, saving the company money and making the people unemployed."
obsidian acorn
what. that sounds dope. I love the last part
upper fjord
Y I liked that also, its a bit funny, serious and true.
Feel like I need to expand upon my experience list tho. I dont have anything that really stands out.
vapid jay
lol
just remove the weird characters..
back in the energy industry.. we used to have a saying.. HR is neither human nor a resource :v
they're likely to not give it a proper go through if they see characters like that
upper fjord
Based on what ive read on google and tips on how to make a good linkedin profiles it is encouraged.
vapid jay
hmm depends on the role..
if you're at a high level.. and have enough experience.. people wont care..
it's like how Bill Gates doesn't need a rolex watch or anything flashy..
upper fjord
I mean if I would have alot of different symbols and everywhere then yes . But used mildly and in the right places like this, I dont see the problem. On the contrary it improves readability. Imagine a recruiter looking into over 100 profiles a day, that must get boring fast. Small things like these can make it a bit more fun.
And im not Bill Gates
I think this article sums up symbols well https://www.jobscan.co/blog/add-special-characters-linkedin-profile/
vapid jay
Your employment will probably be more succesful if instead of sharpening your linkedin profile you'd sharpen your python profile
the article makes a case for not using them too lol
upper fjord
@vapid jay Thats what makes the article good, and of course there is reason to not have it.
Would u say 2 different types of bullet point symbols is tacky and reminds you of a 14 year olds bedazzled cellphone?
vapid jay
up to you man.. it's not my personal preference
upper fjord
I get that, some people like the minimalistic approach. I also like it, but in linkedin I feel it gets dull and boring. You see the exact same style on every page.
It's the same if everyone had the exact same template when making resumes. That would be boring af
obsidian acorn
@upper fjord I agree with @gloomy lagoon definitely.
When they are looking at your indeed, that will most likely be done by a search tool, so the format will not even matter, and could potentially work against you,
the standard is boring, but it works
upper fjord
Good point will remove the symbols. Still working at the description
obsidian acorn
what you want to do, is make sure that in your resume, the key words are there
sometimes, even multiple times
as in
In this project, I use this <tool/language>, to do <xyz>, which resulted in <abd>
<> should be key words that recruiters/companies would be looking for
upper fjord
Y I have that as much as I can in relevent places
jovial obsidian
What's the career path for a data technician? Do they move onto big data engineering or systems admin or..?
upper fjord
Well I guess the better question to ask is, what do you want?
Do you want to be a sys admin ?
But you could move into alot of fields depending on what other skills/experiences you have.
obsidian acorn
@jovial obsidian I have absolutely no idea, but within the data tech, what tools have you used?
what languages, and what have you done?
also, what's your education level?
pallid pendant
I always thought coding jobs paid more than $15 an hour 😛
pallid pendant
Also... why cant the perfect coding job exist, or one that follows a path of something I would love to be doing.
loud delta
holy crap
just updated my linkedin with a bunch of python-related keywords as you guys were discussing above^ and literally just got this, not even 15 minutes later
so anyway if I have no profesh experience in Agile anything and only a tiny bit of C from one college class
what do I say to her? she asked if I think it's a good fit
"fuck yeah I'm a master at all those shits no problem!"
loud delta
lol
indigo sleet
You don't want to get yourself blacklisted
loud delta
does that happen?
indigo sleet
Yeah of course
loud delta
well what I mean is how should I be honest while not underselling myself
I mean I do know a bunch of linux etc, the basics of TCP/IP but never worked with them directly or built anything for it
and still in the process of mastering python
only restarted a month or a couple ago
but been programming for years. like idk
weary sable
what are you taking in majors guys?
upper fjord
@loud delta That looks very much like a massmail, I have read very negative stuff about that. Write something like "Start your message with how good looking I am for a response" or something. That will filter out everyone thats not even reading your profile and just sending massmail based on keywords.
When it comes to overselling/underselling, you should definitely oversell to a certain degree but try to stay close to the truth. Dont write that you are a guru python dev when you are at the very least a intermediate python dev. I potray myself as a junior python dev and while that doesnt have a really specific definition in terms of skills I personally feel its a bit stretch of the truth. Same when I call myself a task automation dev 😃
rare sand
@loud delta absolutely do not do what @upper fjord just said :/
challenging recruiters to complete turing tests comes off as absolutely insane.
rare sand
just play it cool. I get a lot of recruiters on my linkedin, and they're mostly very nice. responding might lead to an informal chat over telephone or even a cup of coffee if you live nearby and are of particular interest to them. sometimes these things will be sort of a fast track to a real interview
the first message is usually sent to a lot of people
loud delta
she responded back and we've been talking for a bit so I guess u could say it's pretty serious
rare sand
but once you respond you get a human
they send out a lot of feeler messages just to get in touch with people.
obviously don't lie to them about your credentials, and don't tell them you suck either. a good candidate should come off as honest, confident, and humble.
I've responded incredibly honestly to a lot of them, like, "I suck at Java but I'm really good at Python" kind of responses, and they usually find my honesty refreshing. do recommend.
don't be surprised if you get more of these, btw
linkedin is a goldmine
upper fjord
In what way is it insane to request someone starts their message with a certain text so you know the actually read your profile?
rare sand
there's literally zero reason to ever do this.
tawdry remnant
surely it would just make you sound a bit pretentious, idk?
rare sand
it'd make you sound paranoid and incredibly self-important that your time is so valuable that a person who wants to offer you a job has to jump through hoops for you to take them seriously
but that's not even the main reason
the main reason is, I've talked to probably 100+ recruiters on linkedin
and it's never not been a human sending the messages.
loud delta
well look based on the amount of recruiters I've gotten up to this point chomping at the bit to hire me, (0) I was willing to take a chance and give this one the benefit of the doubt
lol
I tried being picky like that earlier on in my job search a couple years back and eventually got it lasered into my brain that they don't give a fuck either way
they just won't respond to stuff like that
indigo sleet
at the end of the day, the recruiter is hired by the company
they're not going to forward a risky hire
loud delta
ya
it's a seller's market
we don't really get to pick
which fkn sucks but I gotta feed my future kid LuL
tawdry remnant
we have a lot more luxury than most markets (from my naive soon to be grad perspective)
tawdry remnant
soon to be graduating from uni
when comparing my job search to other degrees, CS seems to have a far easier time
tawdry remnant
i mean if you graduate from my course without a signed job contract youre an outlier
loud delta
lol jk sorta....I was EE and there's a bunch of other factors so maybe doesn't apply to you
jaunty steppe
Recruiter spam started in year one already 
tawdry remnant
aye
i tend to ignore the clearly copy pasted generic messages from recruiting agencies
rare sand
I answer all of them.
and I'm not even looking for a job
and then they all add me to their network
I have like 400 recruiters in my network now, I think
and maybe 30 people I actually know.
tawdry remnant
i add a lot of the recruiters, i like the idea of having that network for the future
but some only specialise in grad jobs, I don't think that would be too beneficial in the future?
rare sand
I think one day I'm gonna be desperate for a job and I'll just post my first ever post on linkedin to a god damn ocean of recruiters
or spam all 400 of them like they spammed me
surely that will work
tawdry remnant
only fair
rare sand
not that I'm particularly worried about being desperate for a job anytime soon
tawdry remnant
haha not fearing for your job security just yet?
rare sand
employees market over here for devs
tawdry remnant
same here
jaunty steppe
They often operate on a no cure no pay model so they'll be happy to offer you something.
rare sand
if only I had three 🍋 's...
tawdry remnant
wait, isnt the entire staff here copies of you?
rare sand
I wish
no, I'm afraid they're just regular old humans
although quite a few of them are unsettlingly at my beck and call.
my own personal army of python devs
like @mellow agate, that dude would sew me a dress if I asked him to. too accommodating for his own good.
jaunty steppe
Would he program the sewing machine to do it?
rare sand
aren't sewing machines just mechanical
tawdry remnant
so thats what it takes to get on the admin team? homemade garments?
rare sand
it helps.
for example @stray dock sent me a really nice amigurumi of a lemon that he crocheted
jaunty steppe
Nitro
rare sand
I got nitro before it was cool
tawdry remnant
mmmm
rare sand
I actually get lemons adding me on discord now and then asking me to please give it up :D
"please change your number I am the real lemon" kind of thing
definitely off topic but yeah okay
mellow agate
lol yes
pallid pendant
I need to find some cool coding jobs for like the CDC or big oil
main thicket
Oil industry is a terrible place to work for software
vernal lily
I would not have thought that big oil uses that much software
fleet wharf
there was a big oil participant on a recent Talk Python To Me, iirc.
vernal lily
I wonder what they used py for
fleet wharf
https://talkpython.fm/episodes/show/205/beginners-and-experts-panel Vanessa Angel, a "petroleum engineer". data analysis, basically.
main thicket
Everywhere uses software. Oil is not the place you want to write software
Or mining
tawdry remnant
I reckon because they don't value devs as much
typically it seems companies that arent tech companies but have tech are bad to work for because they dont really understand the needs of a dev team?
thats not what i mean by valued
naa i probs used the wrong word, yes! thats what i mean
true, I have heard that aswell
idk, like finance for example the anecdotal stuff i hear is overwhelmingly negative for workplace happiness
obviously there are exceptions
but i think it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say working in the finance industry typically means lower levels of workplace happiness
for sure
lol when 50 is considered a good week
US?
main thicket
@gloomy lagoon Ethical is one reason, but it's just not a good place to be for software. People employed are often not given much place to grow as a developer and they dont have a hierarchy for software engineering , they're a third class citizen in the ecosystem, culture can be pretty terrible, and so on.
Oil companies just dont care a lot about tech and are very "traditional" in some ways
(smaller companies tend to be slightly better)
main thicket
For reference, I work in a company that works exclusively with mining and oil companies.
pallid pendant
see oil seems like a fun place to work, when you get to analyze data
I just know oil tends to hire vets for oil fields, why not hire vets for working on UI/UX, full stack development to better communicate between the HQ and mining wells
main thicket
for the most part, it's not their business and they dont see the value in it
pallid pendant
yeah, figured. I know a bunch of the bigger corps hire out to specialized firms that just focus on smaller projects. I need to find out how they are, and what their reqs for getting hired are
jovial obsidian
@obsidian acorn hey sorry for the late reply, within the data tech field, i've worked with Python, django, C#, C++, SQL, HTML/CSS/JS/Angular, and a lotta hardware related stuff but they said the job will teach me everything
vapid jay
if you've worked with angular.. expect to work in tooling.. DE requires more of Java or python, spark or scala related skill set..
jovial obsidian
vapid jay
nice chart
vivid dock
vapid jay
yeah.. I feel that it varies by company.. the big ones don't have strict roles.. more like levels..
btw how's your new job
main thicket
the IT and Software industry has nowhere near that organisation of roles. At best people spit things up into "junior", "senior" and "lead" of some kind and people freely transition between the different "paths" all the time
sullen rose
i can tell its not accurate because i'm a sysadmin an i don't make nearly close to 70k lmao
tawdry remnant
but which area do you live in?
vapid jay
Does Microsoft use Python?
vapid jay
yep they do..
I like that Microsoft actually pushes for python and R unlike other companies..
weary sable
is 256GB Storage good for programmer?
main thicket
Depends on what you're programming. Some stuff takes more space than others
weary sable
how many gb storage do u have?
main thicket
I have 256 also
But I don't do much with the Microsoft ecosystem which can take up huge amounts of space. The things that take up most space for me is client data and MATLAB install
weary sable
oh since ur using on laptop or computer, did u get full of storage?
main thicket
Haven't gotten it full yet no. Some of the larger client data I store in an external drive, so
tawdry remnant
ive also got 256, which i find plenty for a dev machine if youre not working with large data as part of your daily work
main thicket
@weary sable mechatronic engineering
rare sand
@vapid jay they actually have 42 python repos that are open source
(I know because I contributed to some last year when they were doing a hacktoberfest thing, yay free t-shirts!)
fleet wharf
i still get email updates from the OneNote module. i sub'd during hacktoberfest, but never got to working anything.
tranquil basin
I've got the opportunity to do some subcontract work for a couple hours a week. It appears to be more database related, thought there may be some software development. I've been asked for my hourly rate, and I'm not sure what to say. I've never done subcontract work before and I'm currently a university student (client is aware of this). Any rate for subcontracting would likely be higher than my current hourly rate at my part time job, so I don't think I could base it on that much. Any advice on how I should determine this?
fleet wharf
@tranquil basin i'm can't help with the "what you should be paid", but some things to think about (assumption that you're in the US):
- what is your time worth to you?
- is it an hourly part time, or straight contractor (self-employed) position? if self-employed, think about the tax implications since you'll be solely responsible for federal income tax payments.
- is the "work experience" more important to you than the money?
- are "billable" hours capped?
with those 4 things, you should be able to get close to a number i think. and, it can be a negotiation...your number doesn't have to be perfect at the start.
you might be able to use your current part time job rate, adding in the employer portion of taxes/benefits, to get a starting point.
tranquil basin
Thank you
vapid jay
So can you actually make a living off of Python alone? Or would I have to learn a bunch of other languages to make it a full blown career
radiant mica
Replace Python with hammer
Like any tool, knowing it alone won't take you far. You'll need tangential (is that even a word?) skills such as business analysis, application development, etc to make it useful
Well, unless you sell "how to Python" lessons 😅
vapid jay
lol, thank you for telling me, I'll learn both either way just cuz it's kinda fun
vivid dock
^ Master one and the rest are fairly easy to adapt
vapid jay
@vapid jay My job is currently 100% python for programming stuff so yeah.
hardy rivet
On the subject of skills, I'm looking at doing some independent contracting as a side gig. Any suggestions for researching & marketing tool-building services to local small businesses? For example, a custom utility to quickly convert a client's spreadsheet of billing data in one format into something else that can be imported by the business' main system.
unreal vigil
Python master race @vapid jay, especially nowadays it is a great opportunity to make a career in Python
Btw I thought I’d ask here out of curiosity, I’m very interested in AI, does anyone have any advice on how I can pursue a career in this?
light grotto
if you don't have a relevant degree (and dont want to pursue one) probably the best way is doing some projects, so you have evidence of your skills, and going for lower tier jobs or internships in bigger companies where you can develop and get experience
obsidian acorn
@unreal vigil it depends on the path that you want to follow. AI is fun. One path is to the a course, some of them are short, 6 weeks, some are long. These courses are great because they give you a lot of knowledge that you will find useful, in terms of understanding the different concepts, and using them. Some of these courses can be found online at self-pace with projects that you can practice as well. (udemy/linda).
Though these courses will provide you some knowledge of the field, experience, whether, your own projects, collaboration, or internship will definitely support your growth within the industry.
you an also get a bs/ms in engineering as well, focusing on AI, if you so choose.
the opportunities are endless, so long as you are open to learn, and grow
unreal vigil
fascinating, thank you 😃
vapid jay
it's still a ton of programming @gloomy lagoon : p @unreal vigil
I think there are so many different things a person can do in ML tho
kind of pointless to group them all together
there are some ML people that pretty much never program like you said, they just do math all day (usually that's what the the research scientists do)
and some people that only program all day (usually, those are the research engineers or software engineers)
of course if you're a grad student, you have to do everything by yourself often, meaning both the math and the programming ... if you want to have your work be attributed as being done by you, and not someone else
also join the ML and AI Discord servers
; p
light grotto
which are the ML and AI Discord servers?
vapid jay
I can dm you
vapid jay
what would you do in this situation
you have 16k queries to run some code on.. and know how much time it takes per query..
would you a: reduce the number of queries based on the time and run your code on that
or b: let all of it run, and come back tomorrow.. stop the process when you want results.. and just get the results of how much ever were processed
astral badger
My coworker keeps making functions with hundred and one parameters that are really complicated and use them once
Why are people like this?
vast shoal
Bad company culture.
astral badger
That makes me really depressed
novel osprey
How would you do it differently?
green sinew
Kwargs
real python
They may not know any better. The "write code until it works" paradigm is plenty prevalent, particularly in folks from a non-CS background (anecdotal), and they're not familiar with "proper" (for lack of a better term) architecting. A measure of self-awareness of pain helps, but this is also why code review is important 😃
novel osprey
It would be interesting to see a diagram of the different ways people do it 🤔
mental aurora
i write code til it works then refactor
🤷
but i also dont share it til it is refactored, but i have a smaller team
river cairn
what can i use python for? and how can i make a living out of it?
vapid jay
first you need to actually want to code
its can be really frustrating and draining to code when you dont even want to "just because of the pay and perks"
river cairn
(i kind of want to, it would be cool to make things and earn from them at the same time being proud)
vapid jay
well I guess you can look for a job... ? I honestly have no idea after that.
a bit broad
river cairn
what could i make with python that could potentially generate a bit of $$$$$$$
one idea i had was, a discord bot with perks.
river cairn
true
vapid jay
prolly not the best place to ask that
I mean its simple in getting money for making stuff on your own
make something people want to use
and make it cost money some way
or make free stuff
and have a patreon
yeah ^^^^^^^^^^^^
river cairn
whatever that means (Lol)
vapid jay
its a big reason why teachers arent paid alot
so that way all of those who become teachers are really actually there for the passion
real python
That shouldn’t have been in this channel in the first place
vapid jay
yeah lol
please I dont want another warn
basically dont focus on money when talking about CS
yeah ok
river cairn
ok
jovial obsidian
I'm still hesitant.T
a) Take a $15/hour job as a Data Technician 1 from Google
b) Take a $30/hour job as a front-end developer
Google would be a 6 month contract and could potentially be super good to landing any job after that correct?
viscid vapor
I imagine it would look fantastic on a resume, but I'm not an employer so don't quote me on that
jovial obsidian
That's what i think too.. plus they pay for food and have tons of benefits
but i do want a lot of money so i can buy a new car / save up for a house etc
vast shoal
@jovial obsidian Other job opportunities like the front-end one will be available 6 months from now too.
jovial obsidian
but maybe in the long run going for google now would get me more $
after having that on the resume
@vast shoal thats very true
idk what i wanna do in IT tbh
whether its more of a software developer / security / system admin route
i like all of them
vast shoal
Try to find a job with cross-functional teams.
See what you gravitate towards on the job.
Then maybe focus more on that.
mental aurora
is data technician going to be relevant to other positions though
or is it just going to be moving servers around in a data center
jovial obsidian
Thing is what if it's just moving servers but they also teach development/other stuff?
Yeah I'm not quite sure haha
jovial obsidian
Okay Google is offering $15/hour
but Accenture Federal Services is offering $35/hour
im leaning towards the money but im sure having Google on my resume would be better for me in the long run so i'm indecisive lol
mental aurora
Accenture is a good name as well
jovial obsidian
I will probably take the Google one in hopes to rise within the company.
obsidian acorn
@jovial obsidian you can work there for a year, and apply to another company
mental aurora
what region is it in?
jovial obsidian
Washington DC
white lion
@jovial obsidian Google position sounds cool . If you're ever in the DC area, hit me up for Asian food!
slate wren
This might be the wrong channel to ask this, but im trying to get into machine learning
I'm going to attend a coding bootcamp this summer, while obviously it would be a good idea to attend one data science focused, could i make it work if i follow a bunch of udemy courses while doing my coding bootcamp?
vapid jay
@jovial obsidian oh data centers.. that's what they meant by data tech.. so ambiguous
take it man.. you cant go wrong
wicked elm
going for a python interview tomorrow with Flask apps being needed
any tips?
like what should I brush up on?
vapid jay
flask
wicked elm
clever answers XD
right now I'm hooking up wsgi and nginx to flask before the interview
jolly escarp
Yeah but master how you work with your rest APIs imo
Like how do you design your endpoints, how do you make your docs and tests etc
Even the naming can be a hint of your level!
wicked elm
thanks for the tips Seraf
@jolly escarp what's a good software to troubleshoot APIs?
just postman?
or documentation for it
normally I just use github for everything or google docs
jolly escarp
Well no, ideally you should document your API with tools like swagger or something similar, I use Django so I like their built-in restframework docs
During development yes, postman is great, I use something similar
Plus application documentation shouldn’t go to google docs or github wiki, it should be directly in your functions, classes and modules then you can use something like Sphynx to generate the docs
You can talk about your development process, how you want to optimise your time by automating the tests and docs deployment on merges/PR or whatever your strategies
wicked elm
I'm using a flask swagger tutorial to kind of walk me through what they are using
they keep saying the addons to flask can be very important, for instance Flask-RESTPlus
vapid jay
Hi everyone. I'm working on putting together a resume, and while I don't plan on applying specifically for a job as a software developer, I would like to include what languages I "know" and what my levels are at each.
I have a completed CS minor and I took a number of classes that focused on one language specifically (Python is the only one I went on to use for hobbying beyond course material). I was wondering, what would you guys consider to identify beginner vs intermediate as far as evaluating myself on my resume goes? I wouldn't say I'm advanced in any.
rare sand
if you've mastered the syntax, done a couple of projects, maybe worked through a book or a tutorial, you're probably not a beginner anymore.
there may be a couple of exceptions to that but as a general rule of thumb I think it holds okay.
and I mean projects other than the ones you may have done as part of a course or a book. like.. actual projects. at least one real project.
vapid jay
Got it. Would it be bad if I including a fair number of languages as beginner? I think I constitute beginner at Julia, Java, and C. Should I leave those out or include them even though they're all beginner level?
vernal lily
the more the better surely
rare sand
it's probably fine unless you go way overboard with it and as long as you can back it up with at least some bare bones basics if asked about them.
I've seen, like, teenagers put like 15 languages on their resume and it does not look good.
but including three beginner and 1 intermediate seems reasonable to me.
pallid pendant
time to add q basic back on mine
vapid jay
Okay cool. If I had to give my best general, concise understanding of my beginner languages, I'd say that C taught me most of what I know about data structures and how to code at a lower level than languages like Python, Java taught me the most about OOP because through its verbosity I learned a ton of syntax and made sense of why it had to be verbose, but I'm not really sure what I would say about Julia aside from how fast it is...
pallid pendant
are there languages not to put on a resume, as they should be common knowledge?
rare sand
not sure I'd put stuff like HTML or like YAML or anything that isn't really a programming language.
like, no dude, you're not a JSON expert.
craggy wave
I totally am.
vernal lily
don't put Vim on resume
craggy wave
On a more serious note, some recruiters asked me for my github profile
craggy wave
So, if you want to show off some skills in a language, you can put some projects on there, but make sure that the code style is also good
vapid jay
Is it okay if I don't have a github if I'm not applying specifically for programming positions?
craggy wave
No one likes messy, unreadable code, certainly not if you're trying to gauge skill in one glance
rare sand
probably mostly dev-related positions would be interested in a github
what kind of position is it?
if you don't mind saying
vapid jay
I'm still meetin with my uni's career counselor. I'm 2 semester's off counting this one, so we're narrowing job fields at our next meeting
I just know I want to include that I learned a lot from my minor
And as you all know
programming can help any job
(degree is IDIS, which is kind of broad)
rare sand
In the general tech jobs I've applied to before I switched careers to become an actual dev (stuff like ops, tech support, etc), recruiters tended to be impressed by my interest in writing code, but would not have been interested in a github and it was mostly just a minor hey this guy is really into tech kind of thing.
limber rampart
My problem is that much of the code I'd love to show on my Github has been written for the purposes of university course work and I haven't been able to get permission to make any of it public even after deadlines because much of the work is repeated each year, so those repos are staying private 
rare sand
I got to use a tiny bit of python here and there but only because I really pushed for it.
and in one job as an ops coordinator I got in trouble for writing code because "that's not your job".
I'd love to tell you it's a brave new world out there where every employer wants programmers working at every post just automating everything
but that hasn't quite been my experience.
rare sand
it's certainly not unheard of.
I think many of us self-taught programmers have been there and done that
vapid jay
I think I'll shoot for that, then
rare sand
I certainly have.
(me and eivl discuss that a little bit in the 15000 users video on our youtube, sorry for the plug)
it's quite satisfying to write a program that automates a boring part of your job
and if you're descreet you can basically choose to either come off as super effective or buy yourself lots of time to spend on whatever you want.
vapid jay
The latter
vernal lily
buy yourself lots of time to spend on whatever you want.this option sounds nice
vapid jay
^
rare sand
I used to use python to create these business intelligence reports that were supposed to be a tedious excercise in spreadsheetery
and then I'd use the 3 days of time where my boss thought I was making BI reports to study python.
:P
vapid jay
Did your job let you use your own laptop or do you have to use theirs? Because if they restrict you to use their computers then I would be stuck if they restricted downloading Python
rare sand
varies wildly.
or, well
I've never been asked to use my own laptop
but sometimes I've had very few restrictions, other times it's been extremely strict
at IBM they practically strip searched us before we got to enter the workplace
USB devices strictly forbidden
couldn't even charge our phones.
couldn't install anything
worked exclusively on virtual machines
and so on.
craggy wave
It's weird in my work (academics). The ICT service has a lot of control over what you can or cannot install, since they deal with a lot of users and a lot of different PCs. However, if you need to, you can ask for semi-managed devices. That means you get installation permissions, but you won't get support for the stuff you install yourself.
vapid jay
request semi-managed devices
install python
call down to ICT
"Hey can you help me find this bug in my job-automating Python script?"
fiery heron
Lol
pallid pendant
so knowledge of CSS5 is decent for a resume, among other things?
I still have to update my website, and fill out my github with projects
Is it bad, since I have learning all this on my own that most of my projects have been dog oriented, vs what is more traditionally taught in schools?
rare sand
if you put CSS5 on your resume you might get questions about timetravel.
narrow hawk
vernal lily
CSS4 will not come out apparently https://www.silocreativo.com/en/css4-the-new-version-of-css-that-will-never-exist/
pallid pendant
Lol mixing up my code versions
slate wren
I am thinking of either becoming a python developer or doing machine learning. When i said i was going to study ML, a mob of comments told me that wasnt a good idea. can anyone explain why?
real python
Why don't you ask the mob of commenters?
vapid jay
How do you get good at python
practicing
Ok
so if I made a script that's good that make it so I autotalk about things on discord and make me not be a robot would that be a 'good python'
Well hm I don't really know the answer to that question I guess it's more subjective
on what you actually want to do with python (for me it's learning how to weponize bugs and such I find in code to help show the dev that the app is vulnerable and also learning how to make a few bots for a few of my discord servers.)
I own
seems like you're the type to build a RNN Bot to destroys someones pc
nope
are you sure
because those 2 will be separate (one will be for my job the bot creation is just more of a hobby)
but discord bots are not
rnn bots
ya I know
I am not planning to make weponized bots
you should
1 would be illegal
DESTRUCTO BOT 9000
the rnn bot because it's not consentual
cinder belfry
what about a discord bot that's also a battlebot, and people can send it commands to activate the buzz saw
vapid jay
HERE TO DESTROY YOUR SERVER
lol
that's also a cool idea
15k Battle Points for a Buzz Saw
the thing about that is it's for a discord/minecraft server and the other one is for a company I started
so ya
vapid jay
who
slate wren
lol
vapid jay
oopsie poopsie
slate wren
i didnt scroll down
vapid jay
oh lol
slate wren
it looked like u were typing forever
slate wren
my bad
vapid jay
@vapid jay let me the kid who plays mc for a living give you code
print('play mc')``` ths is the most important code for your jobok well I'm still learning
python
rare sand
how is any of this careers related
vapid jay
idk
shouldn't be to hard as I know c/c++ and have no clue lemon
I think it would be good if we moved this into the python-discussion channel
?
rare sand
is this a python discussion?
vapid jay
it has to do with python
is it (lem - on) or (le - mon)
and minecraft
and discord bots and just stuff of that nature
rare sand
I suggest you both move to #ot1-perplexing-regexing or something.
wicked elm
moving forward to the in person interview!
it was almost all python questions on the call and I pretty muched aced it
😄
jovial obsidian
Lets say I do my 6 months with Google, the job title is Operations Assembler, will that open up a lot of doors for me because of the company Google or would it be better to go for a job that does software engineering?
jovial obsidian
btw google is paying $15/hour and accenture is paying $35
vapid jay
hmm you have to make that decision for you..
operations assembler seems more hardware..and you're interesting in an swe position
see if there are other people who've made that leap
jovial obsidian
i do want money but it seems like in the long run maybe having google on my resume will bump up my future pay
and maybe i could go into hardware job specialization that can pay well
hopefully pays as much as a SWE
or more
lol
vivid dock
Google has a lot of people working for them, and I'd imagine not all job titles at google are as desirable
I'd say it depends more on what you want to do yourself.
jovial obsidian
tbh i jus want money lol
vivid dock
Not what looks better on your resume, you are going to be working for them for a while i'd assume.
vivid dock
Do you like doing hardware related stuff?
vivid dock
Do you want to continue doing hardware related stuff in the future?
jovial obsidian
if i could choose id like to do a mix of everything
SWE, hardware, networking and security
vivid dock
Don't take my word for it, but i'd imagine any recruiter looking for people to do SWE to have SWE experience, not just have prior experience working for google.
jovial obsidian
you're right
what jobs pay as much as SWE
systems admin?
in the hardware related field
i'd eventually like to work my way up to a system architect
vivid dock
No idea in that regards, I'm just an intern/junior fullstack dev
vapid jay
you have to find what works for you.. a career that's future proof and/or one you can pivot from with what skills you pick up along the way
jovial obsidian
haha thanks ill think about it
worldly flame
Anyone have any advice on projects that would make me stand out as an up and coming developer? I have recently developed my own convolutional neural network to detect a dog from a cat, but I utilized a lot of PyTorches functionality, so I don't feel as though companies would find what I did, in the least bit, impressive. Any advice is much appreciated!
mental aurora
Depends what kinda company because there are definitely companies that would find that impressive purely because you got it to work I'd think, I don't know anything about PyTorches or any of that but imo it demonstrates your ability to use different technologies and shape them for your own needs
vapid jay
If you had to submit Python code to a company you hope to work at as a sample of work you've done, what kinds of things would be considered immature or poor?
vernal lily
long functions that do more than one thingunfortunately this is common even in actual corporate code 😂
non-descriptive variable namesthis even more so
good advice though
vapid jay
on the note of when functions end, is it unconditionally bad to have a few lines of code not belong to any function?
bad by employer standards
wicked elm
Wow that was an old message I responded to
Going into my flask development job next month
What should I expect to have ready on my first day?
narrow lake
Hi guys do we have people here who have worked or are working at Amazon?
specificatlly the AWS dev team
wicked elm
I know someone who did
It's very segmented from what he said
You can expect to work with a small team doing a specific thing
For most of the time
It's very rigid
narrow lake
I want to get some insight regarding getting ready for interview,
I've heard that the process can take up to two months of multiple interviews?
wicked elm
I've done one of their interviews
It was a string based programming test
Choose your own language
narrow lake
the team I'm aiming to work for is AWS dev team
wicked elm
Make more than a couple mistakes and they don't call you back
AWS is a huge part of their company
What part of AWS
Ec2? S3? Cloud front? Lambda?
narrow lake
EC2
did you pass your AWS certificate before taking the interview technical test?
I've read on Reddit that passing the AWS pro certificate gives you a better chance to land a dev position in a EC2 team.
if anybody here know a bit more about this matter, I will apreciate the insight.
vapid jay
im lost
im graduating next month and i dont know want to specifically. study
meh i might just go back to learning c++, much harder to learn than python
vapid jay
gettng a job relating to databases or software dev
limber rampart
you can look at job adverts for those fields in your area and see what they generally list as valuable knowledge
vernal lily
for making software?
I would say python is common for web dev, data science and scripting but not for making standalone software
wise elbow
So with 'standalone software' you mean a program with a GUI for people to use?
vernal lily
yeah like VS Code or Excel or Spotify
these things tend to not be made in python
data science and web back end are much more common usages for the python language
wise elbow
I think they're also much more common things to be developed.
I've never had a job where we were developing something with a standalone GUI. In either Java or Python.
who wants a GUI ¯_(ツ)_/¯
vivid dock
They use python in spotify iirc
vernal lily
@vivid dock not for the front end
their back end uses python but the actual desktop app is apparently C++ with HTML/CSS/JS
as I said, using python for back end web is very common but not for a standalone GUI app
hollow mantle
Backend services in general, web is only a subset of that.
karmic sun
hey guys, what is a fair salary for a general purpose developer doing mostly python automation and web dev with 3-5yrs experience?
gritty ivy
fair warning the answer you are probably going to get is it depends on the location
karmic sun
fair enough, just a ballpark
To make my question a bit more specific, would it be fair to say at least 70k/yr?
unreal linden
@karmic sun try this: https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/salary
will be far more accurate than anyone's best guess here
unreal linden
example?
karmic sun
my current job title is email developer, but they've tasked me with building an automated system that does work in our systems faster, and I'm often asked to help web with backend development
unreal linden
if you're confused which role to pick in the drop down, then just pick the closest
unreal linden
sure np
iron grotto
@unreal linden I need careers advice
unreal linden
oh?
unreal linden
i have been, i'm currently interviewing with other companies
iron grotto
what's your age is now ?
unreal linden
27
iron grotto
What should I learn to be a python developer? Anything extra?
unreal linden
it really depends on what sort of work you want to do. If you wanted to be a backend developer for example, you might learn some popular python web frame works, get experience using sql and no sql databases, learn linux and the terminal and everything that goes along with that, and plenty of other things that could be relevant
unreal linden
yea i see, i don't know anything about that course lol
iron grotto
Data structure and algorithm
I actually wanna do competitive programming.
And I found c++ is best for that.. but I am learning python because it will make me understand other languages easily
@unreal linden what should I learn in python for competitive programming
And do you know about competitive programming
unreal linden
not really
i mean, that's kinda vague, at least to me
you can compete in a lot of different ways using programming
unreal linden
i mean, i suppose learning various popular and important algorithms could help
¯_(ツ)_/¯
iron grotto
What kind of algorithms
unreal linden
idk man, there are so many
iron grotto
@unreal linden is there any homework help server , related to problems solving on subject like Physics ,math and chemistry
unreal linden
i have no idea
iron grotto
Oh!
unreal linden
i'm not sure this is really on topic with this channel anymore
iron grotto
#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval is good
vernal lily
you can get books of past coding interview questions apparently
vapid jay
Could someone explain to me what exactly a career in python entails? For example, what kind of work do you do exactly as entry level? I am sure it depends as all things do depend, but if you could give me some kind of rough idea as I am new to the programming world. Well, I have been self studying for the past 2 years, but I don't know if that means anything in this field.
Are the jobs data entry? Would I be actually working for a company developing programs FOR the company? Would I be just be adding edits to their programs as needed for changes in their systems? Is it more of a freelancing type of work? You are contracted by companies? Would you expect to get a job ONLY in software development companies? Just trying to figure out what a python career means.
brazen bone
So, obviously this really does depend on a bunch of factors. But I can tell you my experience of entering the programming world as a fresh graduate.
I definitely was not just doing data entry, and I wasn't just working in a software development company either.
Editing programs is probably going to be your best bet, simply because software is edited a lot more often than it is written from scratch
The other stuff is more variable.
hollow mantle
Instead of saying "a career in Python", think of it as a career using Python. A subtle difference but an important one. Your job as a programmer is to take an idea and translate it into executable instructions for a cumputer. There are a lot of ideas out there, so it's up to you to figure out which ones you want to tackle.
vapid jay
So.. like writing code to make a prosthetic robotic arm respond to organic nerve impulses? That sounds pretty cool.
Cybernetics I guess?
Something tells me you're going to need alot of qualification for that.
vapid jay
So I'm finishing my resume and I want to include examples of some of the hobby uses I have for programming. Is there an official term used to describe writing a script that opens up a file filled with jumbled text and unscrambles it? It's not technically web-scraping because it's not necessarily reliant on the data coming from the internet
umbral valley
You mean like a text file containing “olehl” and outputting “hello”?
vapid jay
No, like a massive data dump but you only want say 20% of it, and the file is uniform
so
NUMBEROFFOO|||NUMBEROFBAR
and you only want say number of foo
So you basically look at the file until you can observe what the structure is and then write a procedure for how to dismantle it down to just the parts you want and no goop
I really need a term for it because I'm very tight on space and I heard resumes for out-of-college need to be 1 page
vapid jay
Data mining, nice
vapid jay
Is "beginner/intermediate/advanced" a hard and fast standard when describing experience with a language on a resume or am I free to do something like "intermediate experience with" and "familiar with"
vapid jay
at what point is it ok to have more than one page on a resume?
my job experience no longer fit on one page
icy berry
if all your work experience is relevant to the application then I would add it on a second page. Normally you will find that people do not care that you worked at Y as a youth when you are applying to X
rare sand
yeah I second this. you can have two pages if everything on those pages is interesting to whoever you're applying to. cut all the fluff first.
usually people have a lot of fluff from back when they didn't have real experience and it kinda just sits there as rot
nobody cares if you were a paperboy or took minutes in your student council in junior high if you've got years of professional experience
vapid jay
Does coding experience that you haven't done professionally count as actual experience or would that also be considered fluff?
i.e a side project or a program you do in your spare time and not for work
rare sand
I'd certainly mention all coding experience in some way or other, not necessarily on the resume but possibly.
your github should be a sort of coding portfolio imo
vapid jay
in college i had three relevant internships, then two jobs since then post grad
icy berry
if you have all your coding done on github, you should share that
rare sand
there are good templates out there.
vapid jay
yeah il have to find one tomorrow
its been a while since i made one
yep, all my stuff I've written is open source on GitHub
thanks, I'm definitely gonna add it onto my resumé :D
rare sand
good. make sure you share that. you can refer to the github on your resume, and if your github is impressive, make sure to emphasize it and not just mention it as a footnote.
rare sand
some people will have a short elevator pitch type summary at the top of their resume describing themselves in one or two sentences.
I might add a github to this and emphasize free time spent doing open source.
for example.
vapid jay
If it's something you wrote, then why not?
willow vine
Idk I don't know how much credit a discord bot would get you know?
I've made like 20 of them now but you can only go so in depth with discord bots
vapid jay
Did you write the code?
willow vine
yes all of it from scratch
and I'm the current maintainer of libneko if you've heard of that
vapid jay
nope
willow vine
rip it's a wrapper for discord py bots
vast shoal
Being the maintainer of an open source library generally speaks in your favor, I'd say.
willow vine
I just don't know if putting it on my resume would help saying "oh I made a wrapper for discord bots" google would laugh and be like wtf is discord
it's like I've dumped thousands of hours into it for legit fun but I don't know how I could show that it's actually useful
vast shoal
Google? I'm pretty sure most people there will be aware of what Discord is.
And if you've put thousands of hours into it, it ought to be interesting to them.
And even if an employer doesn't know what Discord is, you can easily explain it to them.
vast shoal
Whether or not it's useful or relevant to the position you're applying to, it shows you have experience writing code in general.
Which is more than a lot of people can say.
vapid jay
Discord is an actual company that has professional devs working for them
So yeah, I don't see why not
Discord =/= Slack but I mean its generally the same concept
willow vine
Ill put it on then 👍
vapid jay
Any experience counts as experience my dude
I'm adding my ping testers I've written in python to my CV
I'm not a professional but its still taken me a lot of time to actually manually write the code for the program to run
I'd say that counts as something
vast shoal
I am a professional, and while you generally shouldn't put stuff on your CV that's completely irrelevant, if you're applying to a development-related position and you don't already have a list of professional development credentials, it seems completely reasonable to mention that you're a library maintainer, and your experience writing Discord bots. At the very least it's not going to count against you.
willow vine
Yeah like I have more hours of experience than probably 99% of people my age. I may not be a good dev in any way but I have the hours and thats really it
vast shoal
Hours is not the only thing that counts, but it doesn't hurt.
vapid jay
It's still experience in that specific field, if not specific to a company's product/software it still shows that you have a good understanding of how things work, which is priceless
earnest arrow
Hello, I have some questions, more exactly one question ^^. I don't have any degree in programming, and would like to know, it is possible to get a Job without ? For sure I know that I have to work hard to get a good level (What I'm doing) and I know that this journey is far to be finished. But it is reachable ?
lunar harness
I think there are a few people in this server who have a job in development without a computer science degree.
But I think you need a strong portfolio of some sort
And according to some messages in this channel, some employers will turn down anything less than a degree
But I guess, if you do have a good Github/Gitlab with projects that you are proud of and demonstrates your skills, I don't see why an employer might want to throw your application in the trash.
wanton holly
some will disregard your application if you don't have a degree, but that's fine. just ignore those and keep trying, it's most definitely possible if you put enough effort into it. as import said, building an active github or gitlab account is a great idea because it demonstrates a bunch of skills (using VCS, working with others, working on larger projects, etc)
imo a good github profile is more attractive than a degree because it shows you have understanding and experience, rather than just knowledge. of course, i'm not an employer so i'm only saying my thoughts, but there's almost certainly going to be employers which feel the same way as i do, so you've just gotta keep trying :D
lunar harness
i have these weird "fictional websites" on my github, i used to do them every time i learnt a new skill in django. as bisk said, personal projects show progress and it also shows that you are interested in the field you're applying for
Aside from careers, personal projects help you understand and apply the skill you learnt to your own problem, which is fun :D
earnest arrow
Thank you for these informations, I have to progress then ^^
@wanton holly , It is possible to find in Github groups for project ? (Whatever the level of the project) ?
lunar harness
There are many open source projects that you can contribute to, you can check out our server's repositories here https://github.com/python-discord/
When you start getting more experience in programming, you can start to contribute to projects
earnest arrow
Okay understood, thank you @lunar harness for all these information. It's really nice. And by the way this discord is really helpful as well thx
lunar harness
Or maybe, you could make some friends who are also beginners on this server and maybe see if they're interested in tackling a project with you
no problem :D
earnest arrow
Yes that's true, That would be a good way if I find a beginner group. I'm going to go ahead through my training, I'm currently leaning from a course online and I do a lot of exercises and try to create some programs that I imagine to get the thinking of a developer. I think, once I will finish that I'm going to find this group.
wind mica
Keep in mind that we also have SeasonalBot, found in #542272993192050698 that you can also try to solve issues for.
earnest arrow
In which case do you use this channel ? @wind mica
brazen bone
@earnest arrow To answer your original question, I got a job in Python despite not having a programming degree or a great code portfolio
But I could demonstrate that I could code, plus I had a good degree but in a mostly unrelated subject
earnest arrow
That sounds hopeful @brazen bone , actually I have also a degree in a completely different field. I did some code in VBA to make my task easier to handle, and I loved it. Then I took a look on python few month ago, after some research, then I decided to practice and I love it as well and even more than what I did before. (Low level practice of course)
brazen bone
Alright, well there's a good chance then :) Good luck!
earnest arrow
Thanks !
molten spoke
@snow barn sai i see your pings
snow barn
@molten spoke no u dont
vernal lily
👀
umbral valley
@earnest arrow networking is 1,000,000% the most useful thing you can do without a degree
craggy wave
@smoky coyote We're not going to facilitate you cheating on your interview.
smoky coyote
The whole purpose of my presentation is to ask question to a web developer, I was just trying to find someone to interview, where is the cheating to that ?
craggy wave
Okay, I interpreted your messages as you being the person that was going to be interviewed for a job
If that's not the case, then I take my earlier message, @smoky coyote
Guess I misunderstood
smoky coyote
My English isn't the best too
craggy wave
So, what are you looking for?
smoky coyote
Someone to whom I could ask questions about the web developer job
vapid jay
(last resume question, promise)
Do you guys think it would sound pretentious to interviewers if I specified an internship as paid? I obviously don't want to come off that way but at the same time I also think it sounds better than just saying I did an internship
vernal lily
you should always specify paid if it was paid
vapid jay
alright awesome, thanks
dapper pagoda
Is it unprofessional to ask for a delayed job start date?
vernal lily
no it's always fine to ask questions
dapper pagoda
Is this something I should ask during my initial interview or after I receive an offer?
vernal lily
only after receiving offer
well unless you really have to have the delay
what is the reason for the delay
dapper pagoda
See I'm currently graduating from college and I applied for this job that I really wanted like 3 months ago but only heard back recently. And in that time I ended up accepting an internship for 4 months.
vernal lily
so you are asking for job to be delayed until after internship ?
dapper pagoda
Yeah essentially. But I want to be respectful to them as well and not waste their time either or anger them.
vernal lily
best to mention during interview then i guess
tricky situation
maybe even email them before-hand
dapper pagoda
So explain in an email before the interview?
dapper pagoda
Hmm yeah. A friend advised I should go through with it anyway and see if I even get an offer from them.
But thank you so much for your input though!
tawny quartz
@dapper pagoda Asking for a later start date is a perfectly acceptable thing to ask
dapper pagoda
@tawny quartz thanks for the input as well! Do you also think I should let them know ahead of time or after an offer?
wide folio
Hello everyone
I have a question
I am soon going to university and i am looking good universities outside my home country(Croatia)
I am okay in english so i thought about england
Is england good for studying cs?
vast shoal
I don't know about the UK (I assume it's good though). I studied CS in Sweden, and there are several unis here with good CS programs.
There are programs in English and the population at large is very proficient in English as well.
vapid jay
England certainly has great universities for computer science but they are also very costly.
Can you study for free in Sweden as a foreigner?
livid pilot
England is £9300 a year, Scotland is free, Wales is £3800
vast shoal
Actually, 9k is a bit high, maybe more like 6-7k
livid pilot
I go to Salford University in Manchester if you wana talk @wide folio I'm Welsh but i still get the tuition grant
vast shoal
Croatia is an EU member though, so it's free for @wide folio
livid pilot
Brexit
vast shoal
In Sweden
livid pilot
(If were specifically talking about England)
Oh sorry 😛
While I've got you though, whats the startup scene like up there?
(I'm looking to get off this rock)
vast shoal
I think it's pretty good. I just got hired by one.
livid pilot
Congrats!
vast shoal
Thanks
dusky onyx
Meanwhile in NL it's ~2000€/yr
livid pilot
What do you mean by that @dusky onyx do they pay you to go to uni?
vast shoal
Did you read that tilde as a minus sign?
dusky onyx
I wish
dusky onyx
Oh
vast shoal
They do pay you to go to uni in Sweden, if you're an EU citizen.
dusky onyx
Time to go to Sweden /s
livid pilot
St Andrews is a fantastic school
vast shoal
About 250 euro a month.
livid pilot
In worlds top 100 Universities
dusky onyx
Isn't the amount of rapes in Sweden per month at an all-time high
vast shoal
Not as far as I'm aware.
livid pilot
I mean, that shouldnt really be a factor for consideration here
vast shoal
Sweden is ranked relatively (but not exceptionally) high in rape statistics because of a broad definition of rape and high rates of reporting.
Probably not because swedes are particularly rapey.
But yeah, kind of off-topic here.
livid pilot
What you gonna be working on at your startup? If you don't mind me prying
vast shoal
Online bank transaction platform.
livid pilot
Wow, very good area to get into
vast shoal
Enabling instant bank transfers, among other things.
livid pilot
I'm currently in Logistics Automation
vast shoal
Oh, cool.
livid pilot
Big sprawling enterprise codebase, we've even got systems running on pascal from the 70s lol
vast shoal
I built financial infrastructure systems like clearing and trading platforms up until now, also fairly large enterprise systems.
Technically still doing that, I'm starting my new job in the summer.
Finishing my notice period.
livid pilot
Low level C/CPP then?
vast shoal
Nope, all Java.
livid pilot
Oh cool, ESP and the like then
vast shoal
Weeeell, not up until very recently, actually. We are kinda migrating towards a more ESP-like architecture right now.
livid pilot
Yeah so are we, I've been pretty involved with duct taping all our new stuff on to the migration, been really interesting to work on, lots of fun eureka moments
vast shoal
Yeah, it's very interesting. It's a bit of a shame that I'm leaving and won't see the final result.
livid pilot
Moving on to bigger and better things I guess, I'm gonna head off, nice meeting you guys, if you have any questions about the UK or its Uni's feel free to @ or pm me @wide folio
vast shoal
Likewise
wide folio
Thanks mate
livid pilot
See you've already got the slang down 😉
wide folio
Lol
sick plover
Anyone here from SA? Could someone recommend a good online Masters in data science?
Preferably one that won't kill me with the exchange rate.
zinc fulcrum
is python or JS better for someone wanting to create a game [like cookie clicker]
karmic bramble
if you want to make a browser game, you'll need JS (at least for the client side.)
zinc fulcrum
no browser app game on android
is js code cross platform
like can u make .js file to android app
karmic bramble
when it comes to mobile, I'm out. 🤷
zinc fulcrum
as of browser which is faster and easier to make game
slate wren
hi everyone. in a few months i'm going to attend this coding bootcamp
im specifically going for the software developer bootcamp.
i'm feeling pretty comfortable in python now and mainly hope to go to this so i can learn a couple more languages and update my resume for landing work as a coder as i recently injured myself and can no longer work in my previous career
in the long term i hope to get into ML but feel like i should crawl before i walk
rare sand
@zinc fulcrum no, you can't run js on Android natively, but there are frameworks that let you write apps in html, css and js.
for python your options are limited to pretty much only kivy
which some swear by.
personally I would rather use something like Unity and C#
which would make it easy to make a game like that and get it running not only on Android but on all major platforms.
mental aurora
@vast shoal will the physical money travel instantly as well? 🙂
hollow mantle
With a fair amount of experience in Kivy, I can say it's not the worst experience. There's definitely a learning curve, and getting everything working takes some time.
I use it mainly for contract work, when they need an app in a couple weeks or so
fleet tartan
When a job requirement says solid experience in python, what does it mean? How can I get there with only few months of experience?
velvet stream
