#career-advice | Python | Page 303

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 5:46 AM

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As in data science or something?

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 5:47 AM

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do interviews vary wildly from internship to internship?

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i just wanted to know in general

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 5:48 AM

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They do somewhat. Smaller companies are going to be asking easier questions than the ones I mentioned and asking more about specific technologies that they use than about more abstract CS questions

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Webdev jobs might ask questions about react, JS etc. for example

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 5:48 AM

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i want to (at some point) internship for something python related

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and i just want to know what to expect

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 5:49 AM

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Really depends on where you apply. Any idea?

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 5:49 AM

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i dont want to have to pick a specific field but

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uh

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no idea where id be living when id get that internship

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probably somewhere in california

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my residince varies wildly

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 5:50 AM

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If you're applying for startups, the interview is going to pretty different from the interview at Google because startups are looking for cheap labour to help them get off the ground faster while Google is looking for smarty pants with good problem solving skills that they can nurture over years

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 5:51 AM

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so what would i reasonably expect from either

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i mean seperately not what they both share*

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 5:57 AM

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So my first internship was at a startup and in AI. They asked me 50/50 behavioural questions and questions about my past technical background (they werent testing my background, just asking for it). I was asked about how good I am at Python, what I've done before, what I enjoy technically and academically etc. I got that one and have been working there since still, so they might have been more worried about training someone smart than getting off the ground than most startups. Second interview was for CSIRO's Robotics and autonomous systems groups. I was asked about my previous experience at hackathons and what I know about computer vision. I was asked a few technical questions about backpropogation and convolutional networks. Third interview was for a very very early stage startup and they wanted someone to get them off the ground fast. Was asked about my experience with their tech stack and my schedule so they could get as much productivity out of it (ended up rejecting that one since early startups dont pay me enough). My next interview is on monday for Google's software internship and I'm expecting questions like the ones described: lots of technical questions focused around search algorithms, data structures, discrete maths, systems programming, etc. Balancing binary search trees, making queues out of two stacks, implementing binary max heaps as dynamic arrays etc

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@tiny blaze

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 5:58 AM

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okay im reading it

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 5:58 AM

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So there's my experience with interviews varied from early stage startups to startups approaching non-startup to national research organisation to big corporate company

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 5:59 AM

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hm interesting

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so smaller companies are more interested in someone who can work competently while big companies want someone smart and can go above and beyond

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 6:02 AM

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close, smaller companies are more interested in your technical knowledge, big companies are more interested in someone smart (good thinker and problem solver). research organisations seem to look for both.

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 6:03 AM

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can you train your uhh to say smartness?

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 6:03 AM

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absolutely

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100%

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 6:03 AM

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train your problem solving skills and thinking abilities

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okay

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so big companies dont care about how much you know about a specific language? more interested in your understanding of computers and problem solving skills?

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 6:04 AM

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they'd want you to know at least one specific language decently well but yes, otherwise they care about understanding of computer science (not computers) and problem solving skills

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big companies like Google make you choose a language to interview in and are annoyed if you make basic mistakes in your language of choice

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(smaller companies usually expect you to know the language they are using. if they're using a JS stack, they expect you to know JS)

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 6:06 AM

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yes i meant computer science

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 6:07 AM

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Google gives a choice between Java, C, C++, Python and maybe JS, i dont remember that last one

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 6:07 AM

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is google like other big companies?

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 6:07 AM

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yep, pretty standard

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btw smaller companies start behaving more like big companies when you start entering areas like silicon valley

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 6:08 AM

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yea i figured

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but im not going to move there any time soon

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too expensive

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 6:08 AM

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google's interview is not that different from other companies. the difference in process is mostly what happens after the interview

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google interviewers make notes for a separate hiring committee to read and then the hiring committee passes of their decision to start a host matching session so each team available looks at you and checks out whether they want you. if no team wants you but you're a great candidate, you get no job offer

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havent seen that in other companies

tiny blaze Mar 15, 2019, 6:14 AM

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well i guess i better start studying then

void stump Mar 15, 2019, 9:35 AM

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I got demoted from my job, can someone please give advice?

vast shoal Mar 15, 2019, 9:36 AM

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Why did you get demoted?

void stump Mar 15, 2019, 9:36 AM

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So, I was a janitor at Valve

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but I guess poor performance led them to demote me to role of intern

vast shoal Mar 15, 2019, 9:37 AM

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A janitor intern?

void stump Mar 15, 2019, 9:38 AM

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no, a game developer intern

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c'mon dude

vast shoal Mar 15, 2019, 9:40 AM

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Are you making a joke?

craggy wave Mar 15, 2019, 9:41 AM

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Seems like it and it doesn't belong here, @void stump

void stump Mar 15, 2019, 9:41 AM

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Why?

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It's career advice

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the role of janitor is very coveted at small indie company Valve

craggy wave Mar 15, 2019, 9:43 AM

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!tempmute 537896414911397898 3d You've been warned repeatedly not to troll in ontopic channels before, this is your last warning. Next time it's a kick or a ban.

inner wrenBOT Mar 15, 2019, 9:43 AM

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:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: muted @void stump until Mon, 18 Mar 2019 09:43:54 GMT (You've been warned repeatedly not to troll in ontopic channels before, this is your last warning. Next time it's a kick or a ban.).

vapid jay Mar 15, 2019, 11:16 AM

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what did I miss

keen sable Mar 15, 2019, 10:20 PM

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Had a phone intro/interview with a company I'd really like to work with a couple days ago. How long should I wait for a follow up email?

main thicket Mar 15, 2019, 10:21 PM

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I'd reach out again if no reply for two weeks

jolly escarp Mar 16, 2019, 1:12 AM

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I would say thank them after 1 to 2 days and then yes 2 weeks

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 5:40 AM

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yeah always follow up with a thank you email

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:09 AM

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so I'm in my junior year of high school rn and coding is something I want to pursue a career in. can anyone with experience in the industry let me know whether or not going to a coding bootcamp straight out of high school without going for a degree would give me a good chance of landing a job as a junior developer in the states?

please @ me to notify me of your message

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:19 AM

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if you can't afford a degree at the moment.. and the bootcamp is cheap.. I would say go for it.. but be prepared to put the work in..

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I know two people who took the non traditional route.. a guy from sg who was working in a semiconductor manufacturing company in an engineering field.. quit his job, took a year to study javascript, nailed a job at Google..

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:20 AM

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damn

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:20 AM

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another girl who studied arts and humanities.. taught herself how to code..and again.. Google..

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:20 AM

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did he self-learn with books, online tutorials and such?

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:21 AM

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but she might've been a diversity hire.. im not sure..

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yes..books.. lots of practice online.. and those books on cracking coding interviews

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:21 AM

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thanks for sharing man

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:22 AM

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np.. anytime.. talk to people.. that's the best way..

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:26 AM

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yeah I think what i'll do when I get back to the states is I'll set up an interview type deal with an employer who's looking to hire software engineers and I'll try to ask what they typically look for in a hire and what skills are needed etc.

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:27 AM

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@wheat gust Are you a US citizen or?

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:28 AM

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yup, studying at an international school abroad right now tho, will be coming home to Austin at the start of summer

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:29 AM

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Cool cool. Any reason why you wouldnt like to do a degree?

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:31 AM

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I want to get my own income as soon as possible and move out of my mom's house. I've also read that some CS college students aren't equipped with the proper skills they need to get programming jobs and that some of the things they teach in college CS classes may be outdated or irrelevant. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but saving money and years of my life is what I want to do

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:32 AM

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it's pretty true

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if you can get a fulltime job.. you can do your degree on the side..

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top tech companies support that.. as long as you're good

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:46 AM

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Being unequipped with the skills they need I think is a misunderstanding. CS students are taught CS skills not programming skills and are expected to use that to their advantage. Some CS classes are definitely outdated but most arent really, theory is never really "outdated"

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People forget that university isnt training you for a job. It's formal education to give you both theoretical knowledge and problem solving skills

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The true value of that education can be intangible

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:47 AM

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Yeah, a suprising amount of CS theory hasn't changed much in decades

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:47 AM

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I learned microprocessor programming in school..shit I never used that in my life..

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:48 AM

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Why do people feel like they need to only ever learn things they'll use in real life

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:48 AM

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the system sucks..especially if you're American..

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like they spend a while before deciding on what to major in?

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I've used chemistry plenty :v 😛

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:49 AM

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Broadening electives are an important part of a college education

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:49 AM

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in work.. just clarifying that so people don't think I'm making meth or something

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yeah.. but college is costly

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:49 AM

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Exposure to new ideas, learning areas you haven't learned before and aren't familiar with.

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:50 AM

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that's why it's important to understand those concepts in HS if you can manage it

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:50 AM

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would y'all say that someone who has completed a bootcamp but with no college degree is a less attractive hire than a CS grad?

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:50 AM

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Yes

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:50 AM

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like if you don't know your options, what you're good at, and what pays, your options are limited

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:50 AM

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I've learnt so much shit and I know absolute butt tons about so many subjects. I know a fuck tonne of chemistry, physics, maths, computer science along with a non-trivial amount of literature, psychology, linguistics, history etc. I regret none of the education I've had and it has made me a better person and a better academic and a better engineer overall

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I wont ever use much of what I've learnt regularly

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:50 AM

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bootcamp or cs degree, you're still inexperienced.. but people often hire cs grads for potential, if they're from top tier colleges

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:52 AM

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are college CS courses extremely time-consuming?

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:52 AM

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Yes

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College takes a lot of time and energy

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:53 AM

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oh man.. so much abuse..from professors.. x.x

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:53 AM

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That's why employers look for grads

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:53 AM

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really toughens you up

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:53 AM

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It's not just potential. CS grads know CS. 4 years of knowledge in learning things that make up good solutions and good code. They (hopefully) wont do shit like constantly if x in list_var for massive lists, they'll have a broad base of knowledge in multiple subject areas, they'll know what might and what might not be messing up with optimisation or which data structures are destroying their cache locality

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:53 AM

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If you don't understand CS, you're not going to graduate

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I've tutored people who were basically in a infinite loop of retaking classes because it just never clicked for them

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:54 AM

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yikes

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:55 AM

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I'm not at all implying that you need this knowledge, especially in more simple dev roles. The average role that is a simple backend or frontend webdev likely wont use much of this knowledge. But the folks that work at large companies? Whether it's later stage startups like Uber (can that still be considered startup?) or a big company like Google or really anything, these kinds of problems show up even if many bootcamp devs dont realise they are problems

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:55 AM

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To make it through college, generally you need a certain amount of self-drive and autonomy, ability to learn new concepts, solve problems, and work ethic.

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:56 AM

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thanks for all the insight yall, I'll probably look into the military to help pay for college so I can study CS. also, what should I look to major in if I want to be a software engineer?

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:56 AM

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But I think if your goal is to get out of your parents house ASAP and start earning, I think it's worth a shot trying to get basic skilled ASAP to get a simple job for now

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:57 AM

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man..hard life..

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military I mean..not SE

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:57 AM

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I wouldnt jump straight to military, I definitely think its worth a try to study a bunch to see if you can get a job quickly

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Military is an annoying contract

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:58 AM

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I'll try to learn as much as I can between now and when I get my HS diploma then

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 8:58 AM

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Military can be either a great idea or a horrible one depending on your personality

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:59 AM

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@wheat gust Try look for entry level roles around Austin and see what knowledge they require

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Webdev is a quick entry point into the industry generally

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And easier to compete with CS grads because CS grads rarely learn webdev to any significant extent in their degree

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 8:59 AM

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thanks! I'll definitely look into that

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 9:00 AM

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Good luck! I hope it turns out well for you!

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 9:00 AM

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much thanks man 😃

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 9:02 AM

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Yeah, there was no web programming at all in my program

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The intro courses taught C and C++

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Beyond that you were expected to learn the language(s) needed yourself, like Java

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 9:03 AM

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there's only intro webdev here. it's HTML/CSS/JS taught as if it's 2005 and it's open to everyone as a first year design subject so basically they dont expect you to be able to do anything

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it's terrible

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 9:07 AM

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if you can learn a lot.. and get yourself recognized as some prodigy in HS.. you'll get a good ticket

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people always recognize mundane accomplishments like robotics or coding as high level stuff when you do it in HS

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I did actual robotics in college..and it was barely useful to get into a high paying automation domain.. but did get me a job in manufacturing..

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starting things early always helps get more depth later on

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 9:09 AM

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Define "actual robotics" :P

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CS doesnt help with jobs in actual robotics, there's too much maths, control theory and mechanics for the most part

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 9:11 AM

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im just giving an example..dont go into robotics for CS.. lol.. if you want to be SE, do coding stuff.. accomplish something

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I wasn't a CS major.. I studied all those things you mentioned.. in engineering

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if you want a ticket to college without having to shell lots of $, sports and military are the other ways..

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or try writing a good college essay.. maybe apply for scholarships

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 9:42 AM

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how many math classes did yall have to take to get a CS degree? @main thicket @tawny quartz @vapid jay

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 9:43 AM

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At least 6 that I can recall off top of my head, plus statistics

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 9:45 AM

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I didnt do a CS degree, all self-learnt

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 9:45 AM

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ah, what did you major in?

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 9:47 AM

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@wheat gust im not CS.. i'm EE, C&I and big data now..

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 9:48 AM

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oh, right

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 9:49 AM

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My major is mechatronic engineering

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I do robotics and AI and stuff

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 9:50 AM

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That is still hands-down the coolest degree name

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 9:50 AM

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100% is, I still feel cool saying it

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 9:50 AM

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that sounds pretty awesome, how long did it take you to "self-teach" to the point where you were skilled enough to get a job in the field? also, were job interviewers turned off by the fact that you don't have a CS degree?

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actually you had a related degree I guess, never mind the second question

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 9:52 AM

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I've only done intro programming in Python at uni + intro computer architecture (with like 3 weeks of basic programming). But I was pretty advanced in programming an year after I started my first started, more than enough to get a job.

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I'm generally a pretty fast learner though

tawny quartz Mar 16, 2019, 9:52 AM

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Depends on the job, but for most STEM positions if you have skills in the neccessary areas then it usuallly isn't terribly important what the degree is, as long as it's a STEM degree.

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STEM is Science Technology Engineering Mathematics

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 9:53 AM

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it's very hard to get into engineering with a degree in something else but otherwise true, yeah

wheat gust Mar 16, 2019, 9:53 AM

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thanks

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:10 AM

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is getting a degree in CS worth it

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by that i mean is it worth the time and energy to put into it for getting jobs

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(or atleast a decent chance)

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:12 AM

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I think as a HS kid going to college.. it's easy to get sidetracked

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side quests.. like girls.. partying.. free stuff.. symposiums.. events.. blabla

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but if can keep your wits about you.. and graduate with some awards to your name.. your gold man.. employers will find you

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:15 AM

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that doesnt answer my question :o

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im asking is it worth it to put that time in

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not how to do it

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:16 AM

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it does..

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:16 AM

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how

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:16 AM

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you're assuming the ideal.. that you'll go to college get good grades..

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:16 AM

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no

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im assuming the average

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:16 AM

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ok.. then average grades have a tough time getting a good cs job

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:16 AM

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ill get burnout, sometimes be distracted, not get work done, get burn out

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im asking it worth it

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to go through all that

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for a degree

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:17 AM

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it's sweatshop culture after graduation at a mediocre company for atleast 3 years.. till you get experience.. then maybe smoothsailing after

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:17 AM

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still not answering my question

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:18 AM

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I went through it.. burnout, etc.. for me it was worth it.. getting that degree

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:18 AM

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you can skip the mediocre company if you do something with your free time while studying. all in all be interested in the field beyond what your study is teaching you.

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:19 AM

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hmm so you'd say a degree is not worth getting unless youre passionate about the subject?

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:19 AM

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if you just study passionless there is a chance you won't get a job. just passing the exams isn't enough if you don't actually know the material.

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:19 AM

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well if you're not passionate about it, it's going to be near impossible to find a job.. or graduate

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:20 AM

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hm okay, is there degrees centered around programming?

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that arent just mostly cs

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:21 AM

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The CS degree is important.

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programming is also important but without the theory behind it you won't get far in programming.

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:21 AM

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whys that

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:21 AM

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I remember when i was passionate about code... Then clients killed my soul ;)

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:22 AM

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in order to write good code you have to have a broad knowledge how tech work. The CS degree teaches you that. Just learning a programming language isn't enough.

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:22 AM

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Imo cs degree (or any) is less important than easily demonstrating ability and experience

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:23 AM

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yeah im not sure, ill think about a CS degree and ill try to learn the basics but math isnt really my strong suit and at this point rocket science sounds easier than learning how assembly works

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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you won't work with assembly your whole life. they just teach you the very basics so you have a basic understanding

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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it's perspective.. we all sucked at math one time or another.. you can choose your subjects based on where you want to go.. can go light on math

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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assembly was a by the wayside topic, an example

jolly escarp Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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It depends, big companies will hire you based on your algorithmics and data structures. They believe learning a language is a peace of cake if you're skilled at that

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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just computer science in general is hard to comprehend

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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do you think a guy who works with javascript needs linear algebra everyday ..no

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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its not that i suck at math

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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get a degree in a stem.. go wherever

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:24 AM

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its that i dont enjoy it that much

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i dont enjoy it enough to go out and fetch a degree centered around it

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:25 AM

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No degree here 12 yr dev self taught

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:25 AM

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how's your career so far?

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:26 AM

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I think programming isn't for you. You will have to learn a lot of new concepts. While you are working towards your CS degree it teaches you a thing or two about how to learn concept and apply them.
You never stop learning as a software developer.

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:26 AM

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Got a dipl for network engineering was useless

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:26 AM

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programming is fun and i enjoy it

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:26 AM

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Careers good, lived in Thailand mostly last 7yrs

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From Australia

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:27 AM

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i dont think math is the whole principle behind programming

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but i know you need to know a lot of it for a CS degree

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or just to learn CS in general

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:27 AM

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Math overrated bt depends what field you want

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:27 AM

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okay

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:28 AM

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Obviously data sci, analysis, ai etc.. Math going to be prominent

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:28 AM

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you learn a lot of useless things. but being able to make it through also shows that you are capable of learning new things.
if you fail at those steps those employers wouldn't want you anyway......

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:28 AM

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Im in webdev and rarely do any "hard" math

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:29 AM

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you don't need a degree. but if you aren't passionate about anything you have an easier time getting a job with a degree.

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:29 AM

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True

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But u also might waste several years and lots of money getting one

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Especially, when not passionate

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:30 AM

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thank god i live in germany

tiny finch Mar 16, 2019, 11:30 AM

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Free uni

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Try Australia, must commit first born as slaves to get a masters

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Plus our government just passed laws to fight encryption and force devs to implement backdoors into software

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Rip IT sector overnight

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pepe

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 11:32 AM

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downside is a lot of people here study useless subjects and have a hard time finding a job. but at least the people here are educated which is imo very important.

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 11:52 AM

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@tiny blaze Math can be learnt and CS degrees dont really have much maths, they have CS

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math heavy CS degrees are the minority

tiny blaze Mar 16, 2019, 11:53 AM

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which ones are those?

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also that's good to hear

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 11:53 AM

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They're usually the ones from universities that have CS as part of the maths department (as opposed to engineering department)

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Personally I think CS degrees should be maths heavy

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And there should be a separate software engineering degree

solemn valley Mar 16, 2019, 12:37 PM

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All cs degrees i saw here were very maths heavy. In fact some cs professor once told me that software engineering is "cs for the people who are too lazy or stupid to understand maths"

wanton holly Mar 16, 2019, 12:40 PM

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sounds quite elitist

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 12:45 PM

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What does math heavy mean lol. It's a relative term

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Most CS degrees have discrete, calc 2, linalg and statistics

craggy wave Mar 16, 2019, 12:47 PM

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Yeah, although, at least in my country, there's a difference in focus

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 12:47 PM

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Engineering degrees have calc 1,2,3, diffeq, a couple linalg subjects, statistics + whatever else mathy subjects their major might require, eg. signal processing and control theory are basically math subjects + more maths in all their subjects compared to CS. Physics has more maths still. Maths is a maths degree, so

craggy wave Mar 16, 2019, 12:47 PM

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My university has a focus on theoretical/scientific computer science and therefore requires a lot of math courses, while some others are more applied in their focus.

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That's why it's part of the mathematical institute

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We used to have classes together back when I was still a math student (so, 15 years ago)

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Don't know how it is now, though

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 12:49 PM

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Computational science doesnt really count as computer science lol, it's a separate major here and unrelated to the CS major. It's taught by the math faculty. Computational science is just numerical analysis and numerical linear algebra done on code lol

craggy wave Mar 16, 2019, 12:49 PM

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Well, I guess we just use different terminology here.

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Here, all are called "Informatica"

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 12:50 PM

#

That sounds like actual computer science rather than Software eng BS

#

What did you mean by "Scientific" computer science

craggy wave Mar 16, 2019, 12:51 PM

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Whether it's "Technical Informatica" (taught at the Technical University of Delft, for instance) or more theoretical Informatica (University of Leiden) or more applied (University of Amsterdam is more applied, I think)

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 12:58 PM

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Just based on the name "informatics", I'm guessing you mean the more theoretical computer science stuff, which is fair yeah. That's what actual computer science meant until software craze hijacked the degrees and name for muddled down programming degrees

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Scientific in terms of computing tends to refer to scientific computing which is just the maths behind being able to write efficient and accurate code. Not really computer science, more numerical analysis with a side of computer science

hardy ferry Mar 16, 2019, 1:00 PM

#

In germany "Informatik" translates to "computer science". It is often times just computer science.

#

at my city i got computer science for aspiring teachers, computer science in general, computer science with focus on IT security, computational engineering, ...

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 1:01 PM

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yep they're equivalent terms in other languages but in english informatics tends to refer to theoretical computer science and considering he was talking about that, I just inferred

craggy wave Mar 16, 2019, 1:01 PM

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Yeah, it's the same here.

#

Delft now changed the name of their bachelor to "Bachelor of Computer Science and Engineering"

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 1:01 PM

#

you'll notice that competitions involving computer science, with algorithms and such are called "informatics olympiad" etc. rather than "computer science olympiad" et al

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(in english)

timber wharf Mar 16, 2019, 2:49 PM

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Guys do Big Data requires math?

obsidian acorn Mar 16, 2019, 3:10 PM

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@timber wharf the simple answer is yes

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the complex answer is, it depends. within big data, it depends how what you are doing. if you are setting up a whole pipeline, then, you ll need some simple math. And if you are working on the data science end, then, you ll need some complex math, and machine learning and so on. everything else falls in the middle of that range.

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but you ll do fine with some calc

timber wharf Mar 16, 2019, 4:34 PM

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Web, mobile and desktop development doesn't require math, right? @obsidian acorn

solemn valley Mar 16, 2019, 6:04 PM

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Usually not however Ksenofanex asked for big data and that does require maths as explained by him

jolly escarp Mar 16, 2019, 6:50 PM

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However, math and statistics will help you develop your analytical and critical thinking. Also as I said before, companies like Google,Amazon etc care about that part

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It's tied with algorithmics and data structures

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:24 PM

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Are there any specific careers that use a large amount of math and python or doing math with python?

green sinew Mar 16, 2019, 8:25 PM

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Physics and data science use both heavily

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:26 PM

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how does python coincide with physics?

jaunty steppe Mar 16, 2019, 8:26 PM

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astronomy

green sinew Mar 16, 2019, 8:26 PM

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Theoretical physics is all about simulations and machine learning

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Alot of computer projects use python

craggy wave Mar 16, 2019, 8:28 PM

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Python is used a lot in statistics as well, although R is still fairly popular in academic statistics.

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:32 PM

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Theoretical physics is not at all about simulations and machine learning lol

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And physics isn't part of CS, you'll need a bachelor's and a PhD in physics to contribute anything. Pretty much impossible for programmers to contribute anything on their own

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@vapid jay Machine learning and data science
Statistics which is pretty similar to already mentioned
Scientific code though that requires varying levels of knowledge of other discipline (computational physics requires a lot of knowledge, bioinformatics requires less, eg.)
Robotics

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Essentially there's a fair few careers that do lots of maths with code but they're not generally careers in CS. ML is really the only one I can think of that can be considered a CS career.

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:40 PM

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Thx for the info @main thicket

main thicket Mar 16, 2019, 8:41 PM

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Ooh and gamedev can require lots of maths @vapid jay

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Lots of the same maths as robotics

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There's also lots of maths in finance which hire a lot of CS students nowadays

vapid jay Mar 16, 2019, 8:43 PM

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k00l

sturdy nimbus Mar 17, 2019, 7:57 PM

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^ defo true from raggy

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Back when I was a finance major and wanted to be an investment banker, the internship major preferences were finance, accounting, economics, math, CS

ionic cargo Mar 17, 2019, 8:02 PM

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Guys i was considering a career in programming, can someone tell me what it entails. I am a beginner and i see some really cool jobs with offices e.t.c but what does it consist of.

sturdy hearth Mar 17, 2019, 8:40 PM

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Would knowing regex well improve my credentials?

indigo sleet Mar 17, 2019, 8:49 PM

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Regular expressions are considered an essential part of your toolbox in a lot of jobs

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They are super useful so knowing them is always a good thing

main thicket Mar 17, 2019, 8:52 PM

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They aren't that hard to learn, everyone should learn them

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 1:21 AM

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regex is so essential for doing anything with text..

tiny blaze Mar 18, 2019, 5:15 AM

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what do you do with it?

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as far as i can tell it just tells you patterns

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what canyou do with that

tawny quartz Mar 18, 2019, 5:16 AM

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Process text to extract useful information

tiny blaze Mar 18, 2019, 5:16 AM

#

what would someone commonly use it for

tawny quartz Mar 18, 2019, 5:19 AM

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The bot uses it in a number of places, one example being a cog that looks for things like hate speech

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I use it in some of my projects to select the parts of command output that I need

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 5:20 AM

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cog?

tawny quartz Mar 18, 2019, 5:22 AM

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Discord bots implement features as "cogs"

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This is going off-topic for #career-advice

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 8:50 AM

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^ you do not HAVE to implement the features as "cogs" ^ just thought i'd throw that in there

wheat gust Mar 18, 2019, 11:20 AM

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if I want to become a software engineer, can I major in IT in college or do employers look for CS grads for the position?

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 1:19 PM

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Im scared

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So what happens at an interview for like programming ill be honest i have no clue

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What to do

#

this is depressing lol

#

Any advice

#

?

karmic bramble Mar 18, 2019, 1:25 PM

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that largely depends on the company and position you're applying to

vivid dock Mar 18, 2019, 1:25 PM

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Not extremely much you have to worry about

karmic bramble Mar 18, 2019, 1:25 PM

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could range from just a friendly chat to some programming exercises on paper or whatever

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 1:26 PM

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oh

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Ok

#

Are there specific questions they ask

weary gazelle Mar 18, 2019, 1:26 PM

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too many to list

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for me it was a friendly chat followed up by a week of tryout. I don't think it's worth your time to prepare every possible interview question ahead of it unless you're maybe applying for some silicon valley jam

vivid dock Mar 18, 2019, 1:27 PM

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Just prepare yourself by being at your best.

weary gazelle Mar 18, 2019, 1:27 PM

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it's okay to not know things

vivid dock Mar 18, 2019, 1:28 PM

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As in, mentally and physically. Get some good sleep, eat, and don't stress it

karmic bramble Mar 18, 2019, 1:28 PM

#

also for an entry position (apprenticeship or studying) you don't need much domain knowledge. Logical thinking and motivation are more important there.

#

Actual software skills and experience only become important later

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You don't have to be a pro already to get your first job

#

It's also good to apply to many different companies, even those which don't look that interesting to you.

#

Every interview is good practice, and you can still decline if you get a better offer elsewhere

vivid dock Mar 18, 2019, 1:30 PM

#

If it helps my intership inverview was just a friendly chat. Nearly no techincal discussion. Just stuff like "what do you do?".

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There was a few questions if i knew any of the stack they used, which i more or less said no to everything except basic javascript

mild zenith Mar 18, 2019, 1:31 PM

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I think there are places on campuses or other places that let you do "mock interviews" if you're really nervous about it

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 1:32 PM

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Wow thats so interesting

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So do you have to do a stand up talk thing with in the first month

mild zenith Mar 18, 2019, 1:36 PM

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What?

vivid dock Mar 18, 2019, 1:36 PM

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Uh?

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 1:37 PM

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Soxz im just a bit nervous lol

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Let me re phrase

#

Hehe

vivid dock Mar 18, 2019, 1:38 PM

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My internship has just been me getting a goal, and a mentor

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rest has been self learning

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 1:38 PM

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oooh nice so you don't give python talks

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On the first month

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alright cool thanks guys

#

You guys are awesome

#

I've got big stage fright

mild zenith Mar 18, 2019, 1:40 PM

#

You'll be fine.

vapid jay Mar 18, 2019, 1:41 PM

#

rofl_lemon

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I've learned a lot from you guys and thanks for clearing up my anxiety

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/fear

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This is just like a walk in the park

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Then wooohooo thanks again

vivid dock Mar 18, 2019, 3:14 PM

#

It still depends on the job, company and area

#

Some experiences might not be as pleasant, but they are a learning experience.

placid plank Mar 18, 2019, 9:32 PM

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When pursuing Software Engineering is it true you learn most of what you do at the job? This seems like a silly question but it's something an old Graphic Design boss told me

karmic bramble Mar 18, 2019, 10:10 PM

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I would agree, from my limited experience so far

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You need to know basics and must be capable of logical thinking etc, but stuff like specific business frameworks etc can be trained on the job.

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For entry level jobs that is at least.

#

Once you want to be something like Senior Expert Consultant or whatever, you have to know your shit, obviously 😉

placid plank Mar 18, 2019, 10:44 PM

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Okay thanks! 😃

main thicket Mar 18, 2019, 11:48 PM

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@wheat gust a name is just a name, as long as you have the skills, it shouldn't matter much

#

@vapid jay you can scroll up, I talked about my experience with internship interviews with a variety of different places and the kind of questions they asked

#

📎 Screenshot_20190319-095048_Discord.jpg

waxen kestrel Mar 19, 2019, 1:50 AM

#

Do you think code bootcamp are worth it? There's one near me for 6months has an internship period and is only $7K.

#

Or do you think I should focus on being self taught? I feel like the internship is an invaluable asset.

main thicket Mar 19, 2019, 2:17 AM

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If it has an internship guarantee, very well could be worth it

waxen kestrel Mar 19, 2019, 3:25 AM

#

Yup it's guarantee with local businesses

#

U think you're correct

#

I*

waxen kestrel Mar 19, 2019, 5:54 AM

#

Is it hard to find freelance work?

vapid jay Mar 19, 2019, 6:48 AM

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@main thicket thanx bro i've read the caption above and that sounds so epic

#

So internships aren't that bad hmmmm.

umbral valley Mar 19, 2019, 4:22 PM

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@waxen kestrel it can be at the start. I mean you’re basically running a 1 man business at that point, so building clients is a lot of hard work and a little luck.

hardy ferry Mar 19, 2019, 6:16 PM

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If you are relatively new at programming the freelance work you can find pays really badly. It's not worth it. Also the quality of your code is not on par with what they expect.
You can start freelancing if you are already established in a company and want to eventually become independent. (Freelance consultant) You have proven skills and you are paid well on a project.

shy pollen Mar 20, 2019, 1:13 AM

#

So I am making a project that users can upload things that are on the gray area of NSFW and the teacher is giving me the oppertunity for me me show it off. By the time I do show it off (industry will be there) it will already be public.

Should I show them the public build or show an "example" build that does not show the true image/state of the project but is more SFW?

#

Please PM me answer if you have one (laptop battery has 3-4% left)

obsidian acorn Mar 20, 2019, 1:24 AM

#

@shy pollen that is definitely a good question, particularly in this day and age. What I would suggest is to show the public build, and provide them the opportunity to seek, and get access to the full build at their own discretion

limber rampart Mar 20, 2019, 1:32 AM

#

you might also want to discuss this with the teacher, it's a perfectly valid concern

hollow flume Mar 20, 2019, 4:03 AM

#

^
that would prob be the best course of action

steep crane Mar 20, 2019, 6:30 AM

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@waxen kestrel re: bootcamps: it depends on the coding bootcamp. I think the real value of a coding bootcamp depends on how good they are at placing their graduates with a job. What you're really paying for is someone with a good reputation to get you hired by a company.

#

having personally managed the hiring (and firing) of graduates from coding bootcamps, I feel how well they level you up on technical skills depends on how effectively you spend your time there. They'll teach you baseline coding, some best-practices, a broad overview of common components in a typical tech stack, and basic skills for working in a technical team.

#

get a good understanding of what percentage of their grads get placed in good company and what they can do for you if they are unable to do so.

shy pollen Mar 20, 2019, 8:19 AM

#

Thanks for the advice @obsidian acorn @limber rampart

waxen kestrel Mar 20, 2019, 9:26 AM

#

@steep crane what's the key reasoning on firing coding grads? Do you try to stay away from a coding grads? Would you rather higher a self taught or a coding grads?

hollow mantle Mar 20, 2019, 2:46 PM

#

With programming, 85% of the time your employer does not care where you learned how to code. If you can do what they need done, you're golden.

vast shoal Mar 20, 2019, 3:35 PM

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The issue is convincing them that you are able to do what they need done.

unkempt ferry Mar 20, 2019, 4:03 PM

#

is there any sort of program that you can try out for jobs? Like a bunch of people submit programming solutions and based on that the employers will call you in for an interview?

i do see how that could be more work for them than just reviewing a resume of c, but i didn't know if there was any sort of thing like thta

solemn valley Mar 20, 2019, 5:00 PM

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Some employees will look at your github repo where oyu basically "submit programming solutions" and take the stuff you build there into account

steep crane Mar 20, 2019, 5:35 PM

#

@waxen kestrel the person we had to let go wasn't getting the job done at the level we needed. When I'm hiring, I don't give much weight to formal education. I try to get a feel for the person's experience via phone screenings, interviews, exercises. One of the best persons I've hired was a coding bootcamp grad, from the same bootcamp as the one I had to let go, actually.

#

The difference between the two was that the successful one took the time and effort to level himself up. They studied code on github, dug into how things were designed and implemented, sought ways to make their code cleaner, testable, and maintainable. They were curious and intentional about improving their skills.

#

I wouldn't say I stay away from bootcamp grads nor do I particularly favor self-taught. It depends on the company's stage and the team I'm trying to build. If it's an early stage company with a new product, I'll look for experienced folks with broad skillsets; everyone will need know how to perform a range of tasks without a lot of micromanagement.

#

If the company, product, and team are more established, I would take on a mix of juniors/bootcampers that we could train/grow and some experts in a narrow skill to really solve specific problems.

#

@solemn valley It certainly helps to see well developed code in a github repo, whether it's solutions for a coding challenge or for a personal project.

tiny blaze Mar 20, 2019, 7:52 PM

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ive heard google doing some competitions like that where they have a bunch of people write code and hire a few people out of it

sweet citrus Mar 20, 2019, 8:41 PM

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So this headhunter called me up asking me about an opportunity. I heard her out. She eventually tells me the client is this company I am ALREADY in the process of interviewing with. I already told her I am with another staffing agency (didn't tell her which) and she kept asking me questions like how far along I am and when did I take the coding test and if the company gave it or the staffing agency did. Did I screw myself over? She was acting like a lawyer lol.

main thicket Mar 20, 2019, 8:45 PM

#

@tiny blaze Google Codejam is on soon, yes

#

There's also Google Foobar

tiny blaze Mar 20, 2019, 8:46 PM

#

is that what im thinking of?

main thicket Mar 20, 2019, 8:46 PM

#

Google has various ways to hire. You might be thinking of Foobar

tiny blaze Mar 20, 2019, 8:46 PM

#

im thinking of some people solving a somewhat simple problem as efficently as possible

main thicket Mar 20, 2019, 8:47 PM

#

Google asks you those kind of questions in every single interview, every competition and every challenge

#

Entire point of computer science really

#

Though not all problems are simple :P

steep crane Mar 20, 2019, 8:59 PM

#

@sweet citrus she was prolly trying to see if she can still get her commission if she can get you through the process

sweet citrus Mar 20, 2019, 9:02 PM

#

Oh lawd

#

I’m just tryna get a job 😂😂😂

visual shell Mar 20, 2019, 9:50 PM

#

would it be better to go into computer science or data science?

tiny blaze Mar 20, 2019, 10:13 PM

#

wdym

visual shell Mar 20, 2019, 10:18 PM

#

they are two diff branches, which one should I do?

tiny blaze Mar 20, 2019, 10:19 PM

#

depends on what you want out of them

sweet citrus Mar 20, 2019, 11:03 PM

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Lol yeah it depends on the person

steep crane Mar 20, 2019, 11:12 PM

#

@visual shell are these college degrees, udemy courses, or training programs you're asking about?

#

Are you already in the industry? do you already have experience in one or the other?

visual shell Mar 20, 2019, 11:14 PM

#

@steep crane i want to do a couple edx + udemy courses then go after a degree

steep crane Mar 20, 2019, 11:16 PM

#

maybe do some udemy/edx courses in both and then decide which one you'd want to commit the cost of a college education on?

visual shell Mar 20, 2019, 11:17 PM

#

k

#

is it possible to do both?

steep crane Mar 20, 2019, 11:18 PM

#

not sure which country you're in, but here in the United States, there are community colleges, so you can ramp up the commitment level from udemy courses, th eto community college courses, before committing the multiple tens of thousands of dollars to a college/university.

#

@visual shell sure, you can do both; the programming skills that support a computer science degree will help with data science

visual shell Mar 20, 2019, 11:19 PM

#

im in the US

#

community colleges are what 1k 2k?

steep crane Mar 20, 2019, 11:19 PM

#

really depends on where you are.

#

back when I was in community college, it was $11/unit + whatever student fees for the quarter + books.

#

background: I've been working as a full-time software developer for about 10 years now; but started 15 years ago with random contracts/freelancing. in the US. no formal education in computer science; mostly self-taught

#

just looked up my old community college: it's now $46/unit

visual shell Mar 20, 2019, 11:24 PM

#

oof

steep crane Mar 20, 2019, 11:25 PM

#

still cheaper than a university.

unkempt ferry Mar 21, 2019, 12:49 AM

#

thats really cheap. my community college was 20k a semester

#

sorry 2k

steep crane Mar 21, 2019, 1:16 AM

#

@unkempt ferry That $46/unit (course unit; not semester) is the figure for California; how much per course where you are?

jolly escarp Mar 21, 2019, 1:52 AM

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school should be free but I think it's better to pay 200million dollars for the president's trips for his mandate

real python Mar 21, 2019, 1:55 AM

#

Not really relevant to the discussion

vapid jay Mar 21, 2019, 2:24 AM

#

Lol

unkempt ferry Mar 21, 2019, 3:34 AM

#

i was studying full time so i didnt have it per course. but it was about 500 a course

vast shoal Mar 21, 2019, 11:20 AM

#

Yay, was just offered a job as a professional Python dev

vivid dock Mar 21, 2019, 12:40 PM

#

!rules 10

inner wrenBOT Mar 21, 2019, 12:40 PM

#

Rules

10. We do not allow advertisements for communities (including other Discord servers) or commercial projects - Contact us directly if you want to discuss a partnership!

vivid dock Mar 21, 2019, 12:40 PM

#

Not the place

obsidian acorn Mar 21, 2019, 6:04 PM

#

congrats @vast shoal

rare sand Mar 21, 2019, 6:44 PM

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@wheat forge he was talking to some other dude who was advertising here, the message just got deleted rofl_lemon

#

@vast shoal did nothing wrong saying he got a job, of course. that's totally fine. also, grats!

vast shoal Mar 21, 2019, 7:29 PM

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Thanks!

waxen kestrel Mar 22, 2019, 1:45 AM

#

@steep crane if I'm following a course should I include the projects they guide you through in my GitHub?

main thicket Mar 22, 2019, 2:13 AM

#

@waxen kestrel it doesn't hurt

#

At least something to show

vast shoal Mar 22, 2019, 7:51 AM

#

@waxen kestrel It's not really a bad idea to put any project you work on on github, unless there's a good reason not to.

#

Makes it easier to show off what you've done, or expand upon and develop old projects.

#

Or get help from others.

steep crane Mar 22, 2019, 5:02 PM

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@waxen kestrel as with anything you put up publicly online, just make sure it shows off your best work.

fluid thicket Mar 22, 2019, 5:56 PM

#

getting back at old projects is 😢

#

depending on their nature it's better to just pretty them a bit and leave them as they are

vapid jay Mar 23, 2019, 7:06 PM

#

What about small projects, like the ones from the book automate the boring stuff, do they qualify to be on GitHub? I mean they look very basic

solemn valley Mar 23, 2019, 7:51 PM

#

I'd say everything you thinks qualifies is good enough to be there, though for very small stuff you might want to have a repo with multiple sub directories which each contain one of your small things

limber rampart Mar 23, 2019, 7:58 PM

#

just by having things on github also demonstrates you have some grasp on version control, which is handy

tough creek Mar 23, 2019, 10:35 PM

#

hey any recommendations on books to learn python from?

#

damm sorry i posted that in the wrong channel

#

sorry if its irrelevant

karmic bramble Mar 23, 2019, 10:38 PM

#

!resources there should be a few linked/mentioned on the website 👇

inner wrenBOT Mar 23, 2019, 10:38 PM

#

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

tough creek Mar 23, 2019, 10:39 PM

#

ok okhandbutflipped thanks

upper fjord Mar 24, 2019, 2:27 PM

#

@vapid jay I recently started solving problems on websites like hackerrank, I can later include this as a repo in my git and it will show people that I am able to solve problems given to me. (Include a link to my profile at hackerrank which shows all problems and the solutions I implemented)

I think that could be a good way also to show people your skills besides "simple" projects.

tawdry remnant Mar 24, 2019, 3:25 PM

#

also hackerrank problems are really good for coding interviews

#

learn to use dicts/hashmaps and basic graph theory, that will get you very far

open stag Mar 24, 2019, 7:57 PM

#

!resources

inner wrenBOT Mar 24, 2019, 7:57 PM

#

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

visual shell Mar 25, 2019, 1:08 AM

#

so I have a question

#

is having a GitHub repository good for an inspiring developer?

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 1:09 AM

#

A github (or similar) account is a necessity for every dev

#

Software is essentially always either written collaboratively or shared with someone else for viewing and you need a place to keep versions of your software that you can roll back to

visual shell Mar 25, 2019, 1:11 AM

#

Would it be able to be used on a resume?

indigo sleet Mar 25, 2019, 1:11 AM

#

Yes, link it on your resume

#

It's one of the first things that competent companies look for when hiring developers

visual shell Mar 25, 2019, 1:14 AM

#

k last question

#

so I'm building some things my course is teaching like Malware and things, should I put it on my github or no because someone could use it and infect someone else's computer

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 1:15 AM

#

put it up, people arent running out of malware to use, especially not the kind that comes out of intro courses

indigo sleet Mar 25, 2019, 1:15 AM

#

Yeah, should be fine. It's for research purposes anyway.

visual shell Mar 25, 2019, 1:16 AM

#

ok

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 1:16 AM

#

stuff you've made is stuff you've made. making malware isnt illegal or anything

vapid jay Mar 25, 2019, 4:09 AM

#

Should I upgrade my skills first before working or even looking for work?

I am a mechanical engineer by education, so only programming I know is Python and that too from Automate Boring stuff book, and some YouTube courses. But now am good at it. I haven't done any big projects like, AI, Data Work or Android app or anything big, but I want to get into one of these fields next.
What do you recommend?
And how?

As these are specific subjects, I wanted to perfect my basic programming first so I completed the book and did small practice projects.

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 4:10 AM

#

@vapid jay finish and get your basic programming skill. Then work on projects. For AI and data science stuff, you'll want to go over an AI related course concurrently

#

Columbia's ML course on edX is pretty great. You should have the maths background needed as an engineer

#

You'll have a hard time getting a programming job without any proven experience, whether a job or a project or anything

#

Solving problems in Mechanical engineering can be a nice way to practice programming. You can use python for the same things you use MATLAB for but it's not shit

vapid jay Mar 25, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

Am listening,, thank you @main thicket, any more advice?

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 4:14 AM

#

I think that's all I can think of on the top of my head. Keep your current job until you find another one for safety, I guess

vapid jay Mar 25, 2019, 4:16 AM

#

Ok thanks,,, so i will try to learn both these simultaneously or concurrently as I can. Perfect the basics and lookout for special projects

vivid dock Mar 25, 2019, 7:10 AM

#

How is MIT s ai/ml courses on YouTube? Saw codebullet used em to. Learn about it

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 7:12 AM

#

Link?

vivid dock Mar 25, 2019, 7:13 AM

#

Uh I'm on phone, but i can try

#

Unsure which it is, but referenced from this. https://youtu.be/90oG7uyZT-4

YouTube

Code Bullet

1 Million Subscriber Special. Code Bullet QNA

Here be the questions - how did you learn to code 0:43 - whats the best way to learn coding 0:54 - how should i get started with ai 1:27 - what was the worst...

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merry comet Mar 25, 2019, 7:17 AM

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looks like it was this one
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUl4u3cNGP63gFHB6xb-kVBiQHYe_4hSi

YouTube

MIT 6.034 Artificial Intelligence, Fall 2010 - YouTube

View the complete course: http://ocw.mit.edu/6-034F10 Instructor: Patrick Winston In these lectures, Prof. Patrick Winston introduces the 6.034 material from...

tiny blaze Mar 25, 2019, 7:24 AM

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im interested too.. how good is it?

icy berry Mar 25, 2019, 7:33 AM

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MIT courseware are great

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 7:48 AM

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@merry comet it's MIT OCW, exact same stuff as what MIT Students get. I haven't experience with that particular course but it should be at least of decent quality. Do keep in mind, that course isn't completely ML, it's a lot of symbolic AI: all of lectures 1-9 and MR1, 2 and 3 are symbolic (algorithmic)

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Doesn't have a huge ML focus like pure ML courses do

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Looks like a good course if you don't mind that though

tawny flower Mar 25, 2019, 3:02 PM

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Will a company look at your HackerRank or CodeForces score? Is any of them worth doing?

upper fjord Mar 25, 2019, 3:48 PM

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@tawny flower Well I doubt a company will manually search for your profile (on different websites) if they find you via linkedin or something. But if you somehow reefer to it on your linkedin or resume then I see no reason why they wouldn't check it out.

If anything they are worth doing just for self confirmation of being able to solve problems other people give you.

tawdry remnant Mar 25, 2019, 6:47 PM

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Definitely link your GitHub on your linkedin

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And some applications also have a GitHub
input where you can link your GitHub profile

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They also love seeing open source on there

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There are events throughout the year geared towards getting people into open source

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Hacktoberfest is a big one

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Put your programming languages down in linkedin

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Recruiters will sometimes filter by that

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If you are at uni, make sure to put your uni and predicted end date, in your final year recruitment contact goes way up since you're about to graduate

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Also @tawny flower I've never had a recruiter look at my hackerrank profile, but the questions on there are super useful for coding interviews. They have a set specifically for coding interviews

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To add to that, "Cracking The Coding Interview" is a fantastic book and will help loads with interviews

unkempt ferry Mar 25, 2019, 7:05 PM

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I've heard it's a great book, but might be a bit advanced depending on your level? (not so much for people seeking jobs, but for people trying to get to that point). Do you have other reccomendations?

tawdry remnant Mar 25, 2019, 7:09 PM

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Haha ye if you're at the point of seeking a job, that book should not be too advanced :p umm honestly then I'd say just practice with hackerrank questions. Learning what problems look like and trying to work towards solving them will both help your problem solving skills, and how to use your language of choice

unkempt ferry Mar 25, 2019, 7:10 PM

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alright

tawdry remnant Mar 25, 2019, 7:10 PM

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The book is about the best and optimal solutions to problems presented

unkempt ferry Mar 25, 2019, 7:10 PM

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ooh ok cool

tawdry remnant Mar 25, 2019, 7:10 PM

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But you can obviously solve problems as practice in the meantime

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Doesn't have to be optimal when you're at that level

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Sorting algorithms is a great start

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Learning how sorting algorithms work, and the concept of time complexity is a good place to begin I'd say

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Time complexity is a pretty important concept for coding interviews, so the sooner you are familiar with that the better

tawny flower Mar 25, 2019, 8:05 PM

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I should probably create a LinkedIn in this case. I thought it wasn't useful anymore.

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I'll do all CodeForces and HackerRank for more python knowledge and all

tawdry remnant Mar 25, 2019, 8:06 PM

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I get contacted a lot on LinkedIn for job opportunities as a final year student

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Most are meh grad recruiters, but every now and then there are interesting opportunities

tawny flower Mar 25, 2019, 8:51 PM

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I am first year student and not exactly looking for work right now but I might just set one up for the sake of it.

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 8:53 PM

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LinkedIn is great. I can stalk other people and compete with them on how good I'm doing in life

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I swear it's not as unhealthy as it sounds :P

tawny flower Mar 25, 2019, 8:54 PM

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I thought LinkedIn notified you about people seeing your profile

main thicket Mar 25, 2019, 8:56 PM

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It does but

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You can go into secret mode (with the loss that you cant see who's seeing you) or only look at a person's profile once and then add them so it doesn't look like you're stalling :P

tawny flower Mar 25, 2019, 11:07 PM

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HackerRank has some stuff that are more difficult than I thought they would be so that's good

tawdry remnant Mar 26, 2019, 1:41 AM

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linkedin is also good for internships

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which are also very valuable on a CV (and paid, at least in the US/UK)

visual shell Mar 26, 2019, 2:40 AM

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should I learn front-end programming before django and flask?

radiant mica Mar 26, 2019, 3:05 AM

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why not both in tandem?

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they call those "full stack" 😛

weary sable Mar 26, 2019, 3:46 AM

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is cybersecurity can be related to software engineer?

tawny quartz Mar 26, 2019, 4:33 AM

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Yes

weary sable Mar 26, 2019, 5:18 AM

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Ohh

kindred steppe Mar 26, 2019, 3:07 PM

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Anyone know any good Python Jobs boards?

karmic sun Mar 26, 2019, 7:22 PM

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Can someone help me out in terms of where I should be in my career/future prospects?
I enjoy programming as a tool or means to help productivity (automated vast majority of work at 2 "non-developer" jobs) and don't find myself wanting to be stuck as a pure developer coding away at some big application or something.
Is there hope/a future career wise for me wanting to do programming where it's not purely the focus?

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(Also python is my strongest language)

main thicket Mar 26, 2019, 8:35 PM

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@karmic sun quite like me! Specialise in a field where code is a means to the end of solving a problem. The main problem is a technical one and you're using code to solve it. Scientific computing, ML, robotics, and so on.

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Less "software engineering" if that makes sense

karmic sun Mar 26, 2019, 9:26 PM

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I see

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would data science fall under that type of field?

main thicket Mar 26, 2019, 10:30 PM

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Yep

visual shell Mar 27, 2019, 2:01 AM

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Would going after these https://pythoninstitute.org/certification/pcep-certification-entry-level/ be worth it?

Python Institute

PCEP Certification (Entry-Level)

main thicket Mar 27, 2019, 2:47 AM

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Doubt it

visual shell Mar 27, 2019, 4:04 AM

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@main thicket why

obsidian acorn Mar 27, 2019, 4:06 AM

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@visual shell I would say yes

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not for the exam and certification itself, though I am not sure how that would be welcomed in the coding community. I am assuming it may give you an edge if many beginners are applying for the same position.

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but overall, but cause of the studies that you will have to do in order to pass the exam, which in return will improve your ability to code, would make you a much better asset

visual shell Mar 27, 2019, 4:08 AM

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Ok

main thicket Mar 27, 2019, 4:12 AM

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Any small project experience is likely more valuable than some entry level certification

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When there's a lot of entry level people applying, more likely than not, someone has a project thats worth more than an entry level certification

obsidian acorn Mar 27, 2019, 4:15 AM

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Agreed. but a combination thereof would certainly be an added bonus. So, do not neglect projects for the certificates, but at the same time, the choice of the certificate is up to you, and in both case, you are still learning.

main thicket Mar 27, 2019, 4:18 AM

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A certificate exists in a qualification framework with linear progression. If you clearly already have all the skills described in a certificate, most people wouldnt consider the person with the certificate more qualified than the person without.

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certification shows that the individual is familiar with universal computer programming concepts like data types, containers, functions, conditions, loops, as well as Python programming language syntax, semantics, and the runtime environment

main thicket Mar 28, 2019, 12:37 AM

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@gloomy lagoon I just listed what the cert covers and it covers none of the things you mentioned

obsidian acorn Mar 28, 2019, 1:52 AM

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@gloomy lagoon and @main thicket, you are both right. experience beats certs within this field up to a point. But the winner is neither, but rather both. Having experience without certs will take you far, and having certs with no experience will certainly get you ready to get some work done, and gain the experience. But at the end of the day, regardless how much experience you have, if the opportunity comes for you to get a cert in something, do not shy away from doing it. I could be the difference between a promotion or a hire

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so, @visual shell, @gloomy lagoon, and @gloomy lagoon , partake in all these opportunities shall they arise. Additionally, you will find that whilst studying for a particular cert, you will learn things that you would not/did not learn through experience alone.

unreal linden Mar 28, 2019, 2:08 AM

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@gloomy lagoon hey, do you mind changing your nickname to something that can easily be pinged, and so it complies with our nickname policy?

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https://pythondiscord.com/about/rules#nickname-policy

Python Discord | Rules

The server rules, along with an explanation of what happens when they're broken

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👍🏻

peak zealot Mar 28, 2019, 10:29 AM

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How do you deal with laziness? How you have power to make projects real?

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call me if you answer

tiny blaze Mar 28, 2019, 10:59 AM

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seems like more of an off topic question but force yourself to do things, no matter how much you dont want to

fluid thicket Mar 28, 2019, 10:59 AM

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I've been generally lazy my whole life towards stuff I didn't enjoy doing. Found my pasion on programming, that being said there are aspect / technologies that are not that fun to work with but you still have, I generally take small breaks (5-15 minutes) every few hours and I so something that works for me: As usual, you have your general computer sci/ homework, whatever you have to do mandatory that sometimes isn't that enjoyable and side projects I do (own projects, open source.. you name it). I usually enjoy more the latter. Whenever I reach that point of dizziness, tireness and I'm like, I'm fed up, im gonna play some league, instead, I switch to those more enjoyable projects, I have a look at programming comunities (as I'm doing right now) as, it cannot hurt right? So yeah, whenever I feel lazy I switch what I'm doing but always trying to say relevant on the topic. Don't feel like training basketball today? Well, swimming won't hurt your. This is what I've found to work on me, every person might have a different approach. @peak zealot

tiny blaze Mar 28, 2019, 10:59 AM

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what the fuck

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how did you type that in 15 seconds

fluid thicket Mar 28, 2019, 11:00 AM

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did not take only 15 seconds

tiny blaze Mar 28, 2019, 11:00 AM

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less than 60 seconds

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at least

cyan parrot Mar 28, 2019, 11:01 AM

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@peak zealot you have to want it

tiny blaze Mar 28, 2019, 11:02 AM

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thats not very good advice

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there are somethings you need to do even if you dont want it

cyan parrot Mar 28, 2019, 11:02 AM

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I mean you have to want to finish the project

fluid thicket Mar 28, 2019, 11:03 AM

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He might refer that if you want to succeed in this field/project, this has to be your thing.

cyan parrot Mar 28, 2019, 11:03 AM

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sure there will be things on the way that u won't want to do

tiny blaze Mar 28, 2019, 11:03 AM

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hm define "your thing"

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do you mean something your good at?

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or something your interested in

fluid thicket Mar 28, 2019, 11:03 AM

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I've met a lot of 1º year college student whose background was literally art, who were only there just because 'it pays more'

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I'd say something you are interested in

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You might not be good at something but can work your way up

tiny blaze Mar 28, 2019, 11:04 AM

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yea... you can still lose intrest in a project over time

cyan parrot Mar 28, 2019, 11:04 AM

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some people start a project because it seems cool but when it comes to a part where they have to do something they don't know how to or if they have to retry they usually quit instead of pushing through and finishing

fluid thicket Mar 28, 2019, 11:04 AM

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oh yeah, you definitely can that's why there are so many dead projects :P

tiny blaze Mar 28, 2019, 11:05 AM

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so just losing being interested in something isnt enough i think

fluid thicket Mar 28, 2019, 11:05 AM

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You have to start at something don't you?

tiny blaze Mar 28, 2019, 11:05 AM

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you have to set yourself a goal and scope (a reasonable scope)

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and stick to that project

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scopes can be hard to define though when youre new

vast shoal Mar 28, 2019, 12:00 PM

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I find that planning and scoping helps a lot with motivation

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Like, actually putting some thought into what you want to accomplish before you start, splitting it into manageable parts and at least in a rough sense try to figure out how long you plan on spending on each part

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Then you can of course change and update the scope and priorities as you go on, but what really kills motivation for me is that situation where you're just casually poking at a half-finished project with no clear goal

vapid jay Mar 28, 2019, 12:03 PM

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yep.. like when I start something I split the problem.. write down that I should finish that part of the problem by a certain time.. (like nothing more than 4 hours) and do it..

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helps to keep yourself accountable.. else its easy to drift off

vast shoal Mar 28, 2019, 12:03 PM

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I also like to maintain an active to do list with whatever I'm currently working on and what I plan on doing in the near future

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And update it at the very least before I stop working

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So that whenever I next pick it up, I know what I was doing and what I'm supposed to do next

vapid jay Mar 28, 2019, 12:05 PM

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hmm I try to keep a todo list.. but can never seem to commit to things that far ahead..

quiet perch Mar 28, 2019, 2:11 PM

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Quick question

Looking to hire some interns for some analyst work. I have two good resumes that know R and Python and have done some projects. Their work looks like very guided course work, ie strict parameters and directed thinking, or some online tutorial work. I think I actually recognize one as one I did too.

Now, not that that is bad as I have some of that same stuff under my belt, but I want someone that can think for themselves. I have heard, and experienced, getting an intern that can't think for themselves outside of an education environment. From my lurking here, am I to understand that I want to ask them how they would solve a problem, the steps to solve those problems to get a grasp of their thought process as opposed to their technical skills?

Am I on the right track?

Thanks!

fluid thicket Mar 28, 2019, 2:20 PM

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had to read that second paragraph twice

quiet perch Mar 28, 2019, 2:22 PM

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Did some edits for clarity, but I did miss one important word 😉

fluid thicket Mar 28, 2019, 2:22 PM

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If I were you

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I'd stick with the one who has a better problem solving and thought process

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a technical skill that can be picked up by reading documentation..

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well, can just be picked up by reading documentation so

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But we ware that some people perform bad under pressure and to some extent, they could not show their real capabilities

quiet perch Mar 28, 2019, 2:33 PM

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Which is fair. I don’t think I’d have them write anything as it’s an intern position but I agree the thought process is what I am interested in. Thanks for the insight!

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 1:19 AM

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if it's an interesting problem.. I'll do it for free

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(so technically im not being hired, recruiting is not what this channel/server is for; it's written in the rules)

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do you have code reviews where you work
general question to everyone

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 2:55 AM

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At the lab, it's all research code so no one gives a shit how terribly it's written. At other work, nothing in production should be shite code but data science code doesnt really have the same kind of expectations of software engineering that code at larger orgs would have since software rarely scales to that size

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 3:43 AM

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I do nlp stuff, so analysis work and preparing models.. there are other people i.e swe's who take care of pushing things to production..

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I'm not sure what aspects DevOps covers.. but this was quite useful to understand how QA is with things that scale

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 3:48 AM

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DevOps is generally talking about development level automation. The people taking care of deployment at scaling is done by a separate Infrastructure engineer of sorts

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Or actual devs

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 3:50 AM

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@vapid jay We've had code reviews in almost every software development team I've worked in.

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 3:51 AM

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Yeah my current company is too small to hire people purely for devops. The devs debate devops related decisions out

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#devs on slack is a place for furious discussion on toolchain opinions

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 3:52 AM

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In my current team (6 engineers), we mandate code reviews: everything is reviewed before it is merged into our development branches. automated tests are kicked off as soon as a code review is put up for review.

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 3:52 AM

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what do these automated tests check for.. and what is coverage?

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I only know of unit tests that tests code for different scenarios/conditions

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 3:53 AM

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Check if something builds and if test cases pass. Coverage checks how much stuff is covered by tests

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 3:54 AM

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Unit tests can be automated? I thought you had to write your own.. and run it

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 3:54 AM

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@vapid jay the automated tests run the unit tests; we're working on improving coverage.

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 3:54 AM

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this is cool.. such a vast domain..

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 3:55 AM

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on one team I was on; we had a 3:1 ratio of lines of tests to lines of implementation

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 3:55 AM

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There are many many different ways of testing. Mutation testing, property based testing, integration testing, etc

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Some of them are more manual than others

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 3:56 AM

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yeah, as you climb the pyramid, you need to build more infrastructure to support the tests

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but it's worth it

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just to bring things a little bit more on topic: designing systems and writing code that are testable is a good skill to practice

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the team I was on with 3:1 test-to-code lines ratio was working on payments products

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that and multiple layers of code review

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@gloomy lagoon I've worked at big and small companies. currently small.

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I would say it depends on the team you end up on at the big place. and it depends on what type of impact matters to you. at big places you can end up on a high-visibility team working on the CEOs pet project; or you could be working in relative obscurity on a critical part of the platform that most other teams take from granted

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or you could be on a team that's just mopping up messes or just making incremental changes.

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at a small place, you might just be swimming upstream against problems that the bigger place has already solved (e.g. I miss the test infrastructure at the payments place.)

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at my current small place, we're working on a product that solves a problem in a novel way; so if we get it right, it'll be an impact on our corner of an industry

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:11 AM

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Havent worked at a massive company yet but all I've heard from people that work there is that they love the huge impact that they can have: they can work together on a feature and it can be running on the machines of millions of people

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someone who graduated and worked at microsoft especially said that because they were working on some of the 3d related features in Windows 10 stuff like Paint3d and powerpoint and whatnot

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 4:21 AM

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there are different types of impact; different people are motivated by different types of recognition

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:24 AM

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oh yeah definitely, you'll definitely feel like you're a small cog in a big machine as opposed to a central member of a team like you would in a small company

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 4:25 AM

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yeah, and the big places can pay more (usually)

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:26 AM

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being treated like a princess with free food, shuttle service, etc sounds even more flattering than money tbh

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 4:27 AM

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the food-on-site thing made me feel like I was at university again

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:28 AM

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food on site.. so you can focus on the important things:P

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me too.. that's what I do currently:3

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 4:29 AM

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I once contracted at a place where they served food on-site breakfast, lunch, and dinner. the only persons who left the building at any point in the day were the smokers.

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:29 AM

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go to work even on weekends

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:29 AM

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yeah pretty much, many places only give free food in the evening after a certain time so you stay past your time longer to eat

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:29 AM

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fang?

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yep

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what is N lol

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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Netflix

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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wow..

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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Tbh was never sure what Netflix was doing in the word FANG

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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times have changed

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one time Microsoft used to be big

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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it is

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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FAANG (Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Neflix, Google)

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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do not quote me.. I love microsoft

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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It's like someone switched out microsoft for netflix so it doesnt sound bad as an acronym

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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I'd like them to go on forever.. unlike ibm

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:30 AM

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Netflix isnt as big as a player as microsoft, dw

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Sounds like the latest and greatest state of the art GAN paper lmao

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:31 AM

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lol

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:31 AM

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FAMGAN (ICML 2019)

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:31 AM

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it's hard.. there's politics everywhere..

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:31 AM

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Anyways, yeah, Netflix doesnt even hire at multiple levels, they only hire SWEs at the level of seniorish equivalent of other companies

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:32 AM

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like if you come up with a solution that makes your seniors look bad.. even if it saves a lot of money, they'll always find ways to block you

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:32 AM

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Amazon isnt bad. It depends a lot on what team you're on

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:32 AM

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Amazon.. is competitive I hear.. dont hear much else.. aside from how the US fulfilment center workers got screwed over by politics..

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:33 AM

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Rarely ever in one of the big companies should a good solution make your seniors look bad. More likely than not people will congratulate you on a big improvement and you'll likely get a promotion sooner

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Recruiters are terrible

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 4:35 AM

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@gloomy lagoon congrats

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:35 AM

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when are you joining.. and which city

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congrats man

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aye

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:36 AM

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Mountain View confirmed, ear is at the big G

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:^)

steep crane Mar 29, 2019, 4:36 AM

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Cupertino confirmed, ear is at Apple

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Los Altos? Menlo Park?

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Seattle?

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😛 j/k

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:37 AM

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They said FANG, so not Microsoft, and said no to A and N, so it's either menlo or mv

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:37 AM

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Seattle.. why.. you would never figure it out..

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:37 AM

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Seattle would mean microsoft

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:37 AM

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doesnt seattle have like everything

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:37 AM

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oh yeah amazon too, I forgot they exist

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:38 AM

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might as well.. no one needs to go out anyway.. always raining

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surprised you're buying hard copies..

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do you use https://learning.oreilly.com/accounts/login/ at all

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me too..

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but this is interactive

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XD

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:42 AM

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I cant handle pdfs and ebooks on my laptop/computer/tablets etc but books on ereaders work pretty much like physical books attentionwise for me btw

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Dunno if you've tried

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Unforuntaltely I almost exclusively read textbooks, mostly with lots of equations, nowadays and ebooks with equations arent exactly supported well anywhere

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:44 AM

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I've been waiting for one book for two years :v

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well it'll be two years by the time it comes out..

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:44 AM

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Yeah the textbooks I read are split across physics, maths and engineering. I find it much easier to read online web "books" for programming

vapid jay Mar 29, 2019, 4:45 AM

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even bothered the author to send me a copy before.. cuz I couldnt wait..lol

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lost me at haskell

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seems kinda nice.. functional programming.. I was doing that for 5 years..

main thicket Mar 29, 2019, 4:45 AM

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Cant imagine someone just jumping into Haskell
"Soooo how do I do a for loop. How do i take in input. Wtf is a monad. Wtf is a functor. Wtf"

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Lol I'm a huge Rust fanatic. Someone I'm friends with that graduated last year and works at atlassian now convinced me to apply for Atlassian simply because that's the fastest way I can think of of using Rust in production code

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Because they too have Rust fanatics there

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If you tell people you work at atlassian, you get a lot of "Why dont you fix Jira"

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Rust is pretty great. It's like C++ and Haskell had a baby and it somehow turned out to be saner than both of its crazy parents

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Also the burrito analogy is hilarious. Yeah so a monad is just like a cheese burrito in that it's a monoid, which is normal burrito, but it has more cheese, which is to say it's in the category of functors and maps from one category of food to the same category of food"

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I honestly love Confluence. I think bitbucket has some nice things wrt CI pipelines. I hate Jira. I dont really have any other opinions on Atlassian

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I actually enjoy writing documentation. What I like to do is write a huge rant on the slack channel about what I do and how things work and then at at some point, spend a couple hours simply writing documentation

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Without the rant I forget what I was meant to say, and writing while working is annoying and distracting so I just dump a huge piece of thinking randomly without organisation on the channel and just organise it and write a bunch about it on the confluence

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Honestly, I mostly do it because company throws me in the deep end on new projects and it takes me a while to orient myself. Just dont want others to be as confused as me and at least have the tried and tested things and general direction and workflow down before they start

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So much more productive

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people need better distinction between api reference and documentation

south hound Mar 30, 2019, 1:36 AM

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How do you guys find work for freelancing or just getting over all jobs and what are the requirements?

south hound Mar 30, 2019, 1:55 AM

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really im open to anything at the moment

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I have worked on personal projects to make myself money but nothing really big. They mainly focus on web scraping, data parsing and manipulation, and pyqt

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Rn I completed highschool and im looking at what I want to do for a living. I really enjoy coding, preferably python, and I am just clueless on where to start.

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oh and I also messed around in django but havent completed any projects w/ it atm

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Yea I thought about getting a comp sci degree but I dont want to waste time and money on something I may not need. I enjoy learning by myself and learning in a classroom environment can be tedious at times

#

What is your opinion on going the online route vs just going there

main thicket Mar 30, 2019, 4:48 AM

#

Wrt freelancing, freelancing is hard if you have no experience in industry at all and you'll probably be working for very little cost before you start getting reasonable money

#

Most successful freelancers I've seen and know are people who've worked a few years in industry and get their clients based on word of mouth between their connections from before and from those new clients' words of mouth

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@south hound

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And I agree with basically everything ear said on degrees

hollow mantle Mar 30, 2019, 7:12 AM

#

If formal education is a viable option, 90% of the time it's the best route.

It took me months to land my first contract, and from there it's been all about building and maintaining client relationships. Coding is only about 40% of a freelancing job, and you're pretty much always working. Contracts can vary a ton too, and starting out you can't really be picky. At one point I was working on a stock market algorithm, backend server dev + mobile app testing, and some robot controller software all at the same time.

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I didn't go to school because I didn't have the money, or the grades for scholarships. The learning process without it can be rough, and there's a lot of fucking up involved.

An education will let you focus on learning the material, and you're more likely to land a job that is oriented towards what you want to do.

slim island Mar 30, 2019, 3:01 PM

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eh

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the modern education system is explicitly to turn a profit

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the way a university runs is not most conducive to learning in most fields, but it is most conducive to high volume turnover and profit

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the contract you make with an educational institution is you'll give them money in exchange for them giving you some learning materials, and a piece of paper saying you passed some tests which barely corelate to your real-world performance

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the gotcha is that they convinced the bulk of employers that this piece of paper matters

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and recently a new market emerged which is the borderline-scam IT certification industry

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 3:55 PM

#

So I have one year of contract experience (mostly Python/Django), and I've been hunting hard for my first full time role the last several months. It's looking like junior positions are practically non-existent where I live, and junior Python/Django positions are completely non-existent. I literally haven't come across one in months of religiously checking every job board/slack/discord community imaginable. There are two major Python/Django shops in town, I've spoken to both. The first one said they only hire people with 5+ yrs experience. The second one interviewed me over the phone, and we got on really well. They contacted me a few days later and said they were concerned about my lack of experience with a team, and wouldn't be referring me for the next interview. I've sent out more resumes than I can count, and the only face-to-face I've managed to get with anyone in town ended up being a fake interview. I'm at my wits end, and not excited about having to go back into service industry. What would you do?

slim island Mar 30, 2019, 4:06 PM

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"That means the company is taking that much smaller of a risk hiring a degree holder" this part is very much up for debate and doesn't really hold if anyone even remotely competent is involved in the talent chain

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certifications and degrees are a mechanism to dilute risk, not reduce it

#

yeah it certainly helps, although how much it helps is rapidly diminishing due to 1: increased recognition of talent outside certifications and 2: increasing number of candidates with any given certification

#

2 is a pretty huge problem for everyone except the certification scammers

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because as a particular certification becomes popular in the industry, graduates start all acquiring it. And now you face a pool of candidates that all hold whatever piece of paper

#

and so the candidates need to differentiate again

#

enter: n+1 certification

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regarding gpa, even that's just a random common metric

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if you showed up with an impressive side project or portfolio with a garbage gpa, i'd take you over some shining example grad

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 4:12 PM

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Denver. Big tech city, all senior jobs

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For sure. I don't know if I can relocate. It took years to get here, and ultimately if I CAN break in, job opps for people with more experience are endless

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ah, Virginia

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I would if I could. I have more than myself to consider with the living situation, so I don't think I can pack up and head back across the country

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issue is I'm kind of stuck here

#

my wife's job is essential for us, and thats here

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plus we love it here

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a lot

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haha

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and again, if I can break in, it's a sea of opportunities

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so very hard

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jeeez

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Haha, right??

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It's such a strange thing to me

#

I'm extremely hard working, I'll do what I'm told, open to learning ANYTHING, and I'll take way less than most people for salary

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still can't get a real interview

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fang?

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ah

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so thats what tier 1 is

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gotcha

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I guess at this point I just don't know how to proceed. If solo contracts and side projects don't count as real experience.....

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I am, I just need to up the skill set

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I've been wanting to learn java

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time is getting limited as I take on more side jobs, but I'm doing what I can to keep after expanding my skills

#

java is definitely really big here

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yeah, I know several people that work in it and hate it hahz

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haha*

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I feel I can pass a python interview now, I'm just not finding junior openings

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right on

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no, my experience is all web

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haha true

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I'm definitely going to do what I can to learn java

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other than that I guess I'll check back in with the places I mentioned periodically and hope they change their mind

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haha

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yeah, thats not bad

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and thanks!

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I'd be super open to a small company, for sure

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I offered to go full time for my contract position I was doing at half their areas standard rate

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they still couldnt afford it haha

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true

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yep

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it's the worst, but I check it 100x a day

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yeah i have

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that I haven't done

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good call

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I check for jobs on there, but I'm not signed up

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Honestly I'm more concerned with the lack of junior positions than just responses

#

I figured I'd get turned down a lot

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It seems theres so many senior devs moving here people just aren't that concerned about training for the future

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Which I both do and don't understand

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 4:45 PM

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the thing I'm noticing over here is that there are a lot of junior positions that need senior experience

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 4:45 PM

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I've seen a few of those as well over the last several months

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I'm down for that! haha

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yeah, that's what I had thought

slim island Mar 30, 2019, 4:52 PM

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engineering seniority is not purely a function of years exp

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 4:53 PM

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So I guess technically that makes me mid

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except I was solo dev

slim island Mar 30, 2019, 4:53 PM

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i know 'senior engineers' with 8+ years experience who make huge money but are in fact, senior engineers and not managers

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 4:54 PM

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I guess I'm just not enough of a "mid" yet

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all those positions want 2 years on a real development team

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deep knowledge of CI shit

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I probably would have opted for an internship over the contract work I did, had I known it would basically just be viewed as a personal project

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Thank you! That's very kind

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I'm sure it could use some re-wording

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That's what I need

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I don't feel like I'm really expressing what I did in that year for that company

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It is a single page, though. And no lies

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Awesome, many many thanks

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oh yeah whenever is fine. I'm pretttty open haha

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:15 PM

#

It's interesting thst some employers aren't interested in hobbyist projects

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That's something I didn't know

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:16 PM

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This particular project was a professional contract for a company in Brooklyn. The feedback I'm getting though is that it doesn't count as I wasn't on a team

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:16 PM

#

It feels to me like quality hobbyist code would be a great indicator that someone loves what they do though

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:17 PM

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That was definitely what i had believed haha

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Fair

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:18 PM

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You can't see by reviewing a few projects though?

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I guess not, yeah

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:18 PM

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Yeah, that could eat up a lot of time during hiring

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I think it's definitely hurt me that my biggest achievement HAS to stay private

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clients requirement

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:20 PM

#

Is binary tree inversion even a useful thing to know?

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:20 PM

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I would love a chance like that

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:21 PM

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I don't think it's a realistic challenge for most jobs

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:22 PM

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I'm not great at the whiteboard, but if someone would just give me a test to take with a computer (kill my internet access even!) I feel I could prove my worth

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:22 PM

#

The thing for me is like

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Okay, I don't know what a binary tree is

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But I'm applying for a full stack webdev position

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Backend Web work, yeah. Like Django for example.

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I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with data science I guess

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:23 PM

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That's been another bummer

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I've gotten into some pretty advanced Django topics

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noone has asked me about Django yet

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even applying for Django jobs haha

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:25 PM

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Hm, interesting

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Also annoying. But interesting.

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:25 PM

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I'm totally open to burning down everything I think I know

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I don't care at all. I just want the chance to do it haha

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Word. I can probably pick up enough Java to work through it

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:27 PM

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I have a java cert from oracle, but I wish I didn't

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I don't list it

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:28 PM

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Yeah I've heard some people believe it to be a "beginner's language"

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:29 PM

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Well, when I got it the current version of java was 8, so when I started the course there were tons of companies in my area that wanted java

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Came out of the course after 9 months with a java 6 (yep) cert, and also no companies really wanted java here anymore

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I didn't realise it was gonna be a 6 cert until halfway through the course either

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The course just said "Latest java technologies!"

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It was a government funded course. :P

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I dunno honestly, I don't really want to do java anymore

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:30 PM

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is it that bad?

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:30 PM

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Python was always my main squeeze but the certs didn't exist

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:30 PM

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Everyone seems to hate it

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yet everyone uses it

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:31 PM

#

Java is an OK language on a great VM

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It's really oracle that sells it to companies

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Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, it's a fine language

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But I worked for a java shop once already

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Well, a clojure shop, potato, potato

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God I hate clojure

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I hate it.

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Haha

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It's a fun idea

#

But it's just.. It's a marriage with java in all the wrong ways

#

Anyway, to give you an idea of why I don't like java shops

#

They decided they wanted to use Apache Tapestry for the web end

#

But Tapestry was so archaic and painful to work with that nobody on the team could figure out how to work with it effectively

#

So, management made a decision

#

We didn't have to work with Tapestry anymore

#

Instead they paid for the singular Tapestry dev to fly out and work, salaried, on that part of the application

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They used Tapestry to push people out of the company - they'd assign you to that part of the app, and when you couldn't figure it out, they fired you

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Happened to a few people, including me

#

Good times :P

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:36 PM

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oof

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that's rough

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:37 PM

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That was the last programming job I had

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It's been 8 years.

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:37 PM

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Damn

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I guess not too many tech opportunities there?

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Or did you just get into something else

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:38 PM

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Not many opportunities, yeah

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:39 PM

#

It's frustrating here. I live in one of the biggest tech cities in America

#

it would be a gold mine if I had 2-3 more years experience

#

It's just very very competitive, with lots of devs moving in

indigo sleet Mar 30, 2019, 5:51 PM

#

Yeah, I hear that

#

I'm just gonna start my own company I think

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

Yeah man, go for it

sweet citrus Mar 30, 2019, 6:49 PM

#

Does anyone here ever get LinkedIn requests for informational interviews?

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 6:58 PM

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No, but I went to one last week that I was invited to under false pretenses. lol

sweet citrus Mar 30, 2019, 7:13 PM

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What happened?

#

I am basically reaching out to Principal Software Engineers asking for their insight/advice starting out and like there are like zero hits so far

vapid jay Mar 30, 2019, 7:13 PM

#

where do you live clam

sweet citrus Mar 30, 2019, 7:14 PM

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These dudes love to look at my profile and not accept or accept and then not respond to my message lol

keen sable Mar 30, 2019, 7:50 PM

#

@sweet citrus I went to an interview after a phone intro where the details were super sketchy on "a couple of different positions...". The guy that ended up doing my technical interview was really nice, but knew absolutely nothing about the supposed positions at hand, and when I asked for more info the answer was very rehearsed. When I got home they had posted the job on a slack channel I'm on with DRASTICALLY different requirements in direct contrast of what I'd just been told in the interview

#

Also the guy that seemed to know nothing about these positions was the companies python lead

sweet citrus Mar 30, 2019, 7:51 PM

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@gloomy lagoon Correct I guess, I am just taking a shotgun approach to really network and hope that they can see I am truly pursuing a job

sullen galleon Mar 30, 2019, 10:34 PM

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i think im going to start learning python but idk much about it

craggy wave Mar 30, 2019, 11:26 PM

#

Fluent Python is a really good book, but I wouldn't recommend it to beginners. There are a lot of fans of the book on this server, though, and it comes up regularly

#

It's my favourite Python book as well

pallid pendant Mar 30, 2019, 11:38 PM

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O'Reilly books I hope are a decent start for getting a python job 😛

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 3:21 AM

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😭

#

So hard to find a job

pallid pendant Mar 31, 2019, 3:51 AM

#

Is it really hard to find a job? Or is it hard to find a job a location of your choosing?

#

I see programming jobs all day on job boards lol

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 3:52 AM

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Second choice

#

I also live in a competitive area

#

grumpy

#

I've been applying to places in the bay and sac

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 6:50 AM

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I don't understand why you'd want to work in the bay area.. or places like nyc..

#

salary-wise.. it restricts your prospects.. like a better opportunity outside these places wouldn't be able to match what you previously made in most cases..

sturdy hearth Mar 31, 2019, 6:53 AM

#

What states would you suggest? @vapid jay

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 6:56 AM

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I dont know..cities like Austin.. Seattle.. Ann Arbor.. states like Minnesota.

#

where you can have a life outside of work, build your family and career.. and not face the rising burden of rent and commute..

#

and outside the US.. places like Amsterdam and Zurich where you can get good healthcare and education for your kids too..

sturdy hearth Mar 31, 2019, 6:59 AM

#

Seattle?

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 7:00 AM

#

yeah.. Microsoft, Amazon, Tableau come to mind

sturdy hearth Mar 31, 2019, 7:00 AM

#

Seattle is one of the most expensive cities in the U.S.

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 7:01 AM

#

still cheaper than the Bay..

main thicket Mar 31, 2019, 7:07 AM

#

Zurich is so fucking expensive lmao

vast forum Mar 31, 2019, 7:31 AM

#

How to get job in programming

#

i'm new and learning

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:08 AM

#

Can I get someone to look over my resume? I've been having a real tough time even getting an email back for an internship... obviously im not doing something right. Need some direction.

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sure buddy.. send screenshots here

#

anonymize it

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Thank you, give me a moment 😃

#

📎 Copy_of_Resume_06.pdf

#

are you familiar with the STAR method

#

No let me google it

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Ah ok I see what it is

#

also your resume has numerous misspellings.. that would be a put off

#

Really? Where?

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Influexer btw is spelled like that on purpose

#

not that

#

Other than that there's no typo errors on my spell checker

#

Utilized

#

don't get defensive man.. your responses should be constructive not defensive.. rule of job hunting

#

for improving on your resume I suggest

#

https://www.vmock.com/

VMock - Smart Career Platform

Get instant, automated and personalized career guidance via VMock Career Platform. Use VMock Smart Resume to score your resume, and receive targeted feedback to make it recruiter ready.

#

Sorry didnt mean to come off like that

#

for tips on what a good resume should look like you should check out

#

don't apologize either.. v.v let me say how I would've responded.. (it's a usual thing that people react instead of responding, always catch yourself and formulate your responses without letting yourself react)

#

I'd say something like : Oh, thank you for spotting that. Let me go through my resume real quick and rectify

#

simple

#

Ah ok

#

Good tip

#

Go through the resumes here

#

https://career.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/pdf/Guide/ResumesCovLet.pdf

#

action words are important

#

STAR method will help you keep things concise and to the point.. show real impact..

#

Situation, Task, Action, Result -> whenever you elaborate on your previous experiences.

#

page 7 on this website is a good resume you can base yours off of.. there's a summary, shows some leadership skills (you can list something else if you deem fit) and you don't need to list every language under every past experience..

indigo sleet Mar 31, 2019, 10:23 AM

#

vmock requires a payment for any useful feedback, just fyi

#

I would recommend scoping out your locality for a jobs club instead

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:23 AM

#

I've never paid :v you can actually use it for free..

indigo sleet Mar 31, 2019, 10:23 AM

#

Nope, they won't give you the detailed feedback

#

just a few scores

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:24 AM

#

hmm yeah perhaps you're right.. I got detailed feedback because my univ had subscribed to them

#

but it still is a good starting point..

indigo sleet Mar 31, 2019, 10:24 AM

#

they also don't let you delete your account or uploads

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:24 AM

#

for spell checks and stuff

#

Ok thanks for the tips

#

2 questions

#

First, I am getting conflicting information

#

My professor and some textbooks say to keep an inch margin around the resume

#

But every tech resume online has super thin edges

#

Whats the truth??

indigo sleet Mar 31, 2019, 10:27 AM

#

Don't think about it that way

#

There is no 100% realistic styling guideline

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:27 AM

#

And second, are the projects I listed good or should I list some more impressive things?

indigo sleet Mar 31, 2019, 10:27 AM

#

You want to tailor your CV/resume for the job at hand, and making it stand out while it still looks professional is a great way to handle things

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:27 AM

#

it depends on where you apply to.. talk to people who have worked there.. I rarely bothered with what people in academia told me about resumes, different employers prefer different styles like gdude here says.. but in the end, it's up to you

#

as long as it's readable..

#

it's not about coming across as impressive..

#

it's about relating to the job/internship you're applying to.. tailoring your resume^ again as he mentioned

indigo sleet Mar 31, 2019, 10:28 AM

#

Remember that recruiters are reading applications all day long

#

Something a little different is often quite welcome

#

But don't go overboard

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:29 AM

#

I was thinking I should list some of my favorite books, would that be unique?

indigo sleet Mar 31, 2019, 10:29 AM

#

You wouldn't fill it with colour unless you were applying to be like a party clown

#

No, irrelevant information isn't what you want

#

You're trying to make their job easy

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:29 AM

#

I would mention something like accomplishments.. show you have a life outside, thing you're passionate about

indigo sleet Mar 31, 2019, 10:29 AM

#

STAR is pretty OK at that

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 10:30 AM

#

Ok excellent thanks for the feedback. Gonna work on updating it 😃

#

https://tenor.com/view/motivation-inspiration-you-can-do-it-ibelieve-in-you-stay-positive-gif-13820182

Tenor

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 4:18 PM

#

I want one

hollow night Mar 31, 2019, 5:34 PM

#

Hi guys

steel blaze Mar 31, 2019, 5:34 PM

#

hai

hollow night Mar 31, 2019, 5:34 PM

#

I'm very new to lhrhj

#

Python

#

How much python do I need to know to get a job

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 5:35 PM

#

Depends what the job is, Goat.

#

It depends, are you looking for a high job(a job what pays high?)

hollow night Mar 31, 2019, 5:36 PM

#

I'm not a from a CS background.. :(

vapid jay Mar 31, 2019, 5:36 PM

#

What's CS?