In this case, we are so badly developed technologically (seriously, we import basically everything; nothing big or relevant is produced/created here) that having "something" is better than nothing
#career-advice
wise zinc
And even so, the algorithms that current ECG machines have are so low in accuracy, for example
It's that kind of thought "something is better than nothing, right?"
If I actually end up needing to better myself and get a real academic course, sure, I'll do it
But right now I'm looking for the skill to not miss the opportunities to try
Btw, ty for the tips 😉
solemn valley
i already said that
vapid jay
Indentation is annoying
solemn valley
and that you like something does not mean its good or that anyone should learn it
vapid jay
Yes
solemn valley
youll also find people who llike brainfuck a lot and still youd not really want to learn it for serious stuff
vapid jay
Brainfuck?
solemn valley
wise zinc
😂 that name
solemn valley
its on purpose
wise zinc
Well, I could also tell you to learn Neuroscience to maybe, idk, try to make correlations and find new "architectures" (idk if I can call it that, sry I'm illiterate in coding) for machine learning
(Btw, if anyone wants to just give me a hint and I'll send you resources. I love that topic hahaha)
solemn valley
the term neuronal network does not really mean neurons in the biological term
why they have a bit in common they are still very different constructs
solemn valley
no neuronal networks are called that way because they got cells and those cells are interconnected and forward signals based on certain parameters etc
and neurons are also cells which are connected and forward signals
wise zinc
Oh, I see
solemn valley
but the neuron in the neuronal network actually does a lot of maths to figure out what it has to do while the biological neuron does whatever it does
probably not math
wise zinc
Tbh, and making it oversimplified, we only know how the neurons transmit messages (like, the neurotransmitters, the receivers and the molecules that allow the brain architecture to change)
But we don't actually know how a neuron process the signals inside with details
We just believe it's a sum of excitations and Inhibitions
vapid jay
...this discussion seems to have gone slightly off topic...?
solemn valley
slightly
wise zinc
I forgot this chat is not meant for this, I'll stop
undone helm
Question for other people who work with Python profesionally... what does your development cycle look like? Is it polished and well-defined? Is it chaotic and unstructured? Do you always have enough time to write unit tests for your releases and are you encouraged to do so?
jolly venture
What classification in degree did your employer require for the job? (question to all)
solemn valley
A high school degree (the highest of the three forms in my country )
neat anchor
Actually, it does have a plan and subgoals
Hmm
Ok its a well structured list of incredibly difficult problems that i solve as i go along
umbral valley
@jolly venture Bachelors in CS and ability to obtain a secret clearance
Also @vapid jay definitely start applying now if you haven’t already.
vapid jay
umbral valley
Hiring can take a long time. It may seem far off but I’d wager by the time you interview places and accept an offer - it’ll be like right at graduation
timber notch
^wholly agreed
vapid jay
alright i have to get good at interviews first
Probably why i didn't get accepted into my first cs interview
timber notch
as hard as it can be in the moment, remember that interviews are a two-way interaction: you're determining if they're a good team and org to work for, too. so use that to do the most important thing in interviews: be confident of yourself! not arrogant, oh god don't be arrogant, but have self-confidence so you can carry yourself well and speak well
vapid jay
I reading cracking the code interview
timber notch
I'm not familiar
umbral valley
For entry level positions your interviews are going to focus more on personality than knowledge really, as they want to know if you’re someone they can comfortably invest resources in
timber notch
yup, 100% agreed. in fact, teams I've been on have generally focused heavily on personality regardless of level being interviewed for: technical skill (or lack thereof) is frankly pretty easy to suss out quickly. the rest of the time is determining if you're a good "culture fit" and, as @umbral valley notes, whether or not the candidate would be worth investing in (because hiring is an investment, and pretty highly front-loaded no less)
umbral valley
The exception to that is the big companies like google Facebook etc. whose interviews are both pretty highly technical and interested in personality
timber notch
yup but as someone who was part of that exact process for many years, I don't believe it's a good one. it's partly based on the fact that those companies interview in "rounds" and each round is going to want to ask technical questions, partly based in the reputation of high technical skill at those companies. I honestly wish we hadn't interviewed that way, I've always wondered who we passed over...
I have come to believe that the Apple/Google/Facebook/etc. process is pretty badly broken. unfortunately: that just one person's opinion & it changes nothing about how they do them today. which means you need to prepare for how they do them today if you want to work there 😃
umbral valley
Government contractor positions 👌
timber notch
I've had someone else tell me that before, too! 👍
umbral valley
Only downside to them is the invasive ness of the secret clearance checks
timber notch
@umbral valley the only direct experience I have with that is a college girlfriend (we both worked at LANL at the time, I was in T division aka unclassified research): she spent two hours on the phone with the FBI and came out of that room looking like a GHOST. she said it was the strangest conversation she'd ever had, they knew everything but still wanted to confirm it all. 😱
timber notch
@umbral valley yeah that's what I had learned later, it's just about whether or not you're susceptible to being taken advantage of in any way (bribery, subterfuge, etc.). Still blows my mind to this day... but I'm guessing from how you're speaking that you're even more familiar than I am with the process 😜
vapid jay
It's the FBI
umbral valley
It’s pretty annoying yeah because it drags on forever
And then the breach a couple years back really fucked with the issuance of then
timber notch
yeah I was told up to a year or more for TS/Q clearances?
oh man I remember that breach but never thought what affect it would have on the clearance process, yikes
umbral valley
Well it’s the issuance is the problem
My brothers been waiting a year and a half or so for his. Mines not been quite that long
vapid jay
For government contractor?
real python
For everyone
vapid jay
For what position
real python
Security clearance isn't a position
Not all government/contractor positions require a clearance
umbral valley
It’s for a clearance to hire classified data
real python
As someone applying for a job that requires a clearance the only thing you need to worry about is whether you're able to acquire and maintain it. The employer is aware that it can take time for the clearance to be acquired
umbral valley
That’s true too, but also not every company can provide an interim / non classified work while that’s processed. So in some cases it’s possible to accept a job, and then spend forever waiting
real python
Sure, but that's for the employer to worry about
umbral valley
Well, kinda. It’s something the employee needs to be aware of too, because if it’s not available you can wind up without a paycheck while it’s processed / granted
real python
Why would they hire someone to not pay them for a year+?
Why would anyone accept that situation?
umbral valley
It’s generally not a year but it can very well be several months while they scramble to find something to pay you for.
real python
That sounds like a terrible way to run a business
vapid jay
timber notch
the government is most definitely not a business 😃
umbral valley
Welcome to the government
vapid jay
Pay people for doing nothing?
timber notch
have you ever actually worked for a gov't entity @real python? because they absolutely can and do
vapid jay
Like politicians
real python
Yes
vapid jay
umbral valley
They will do it. I’ve seen it first hand
real python
You've seen them hire someone and not pay them?
umbral valley
I think the misunderstanding here is that when I say hire, I mean physically hire them. But they won’t pay them because they’re not working at that point - just accepted a job offer and signed whatever forms to get your clearance started, because they don’t have anything unclassified to do.
So you can spend forever waiting on a start date
vapid jay
What's a physical hire
umbral valley
Was just trying to emphasize that they’ve been hired in that they’ve signed an offer, and everything is done. But they’re not hired in the sense that they haven’t started their job
vapid jay
how do you guys apply for internships/jobs?
solemn valley
you send an email or a letter with your letter of application to the address or mail they list
vapid jay
is there a website where i can just apply to a bunch of cs internships at once
😩 i live in a town nowhere near tech
solemn valley
you could check indeed.com or basically any job site
vapid jay
yeah been looking at job boards, zero in my area
i need to go to the bay area or socal if i want to stay in state
i dont want to go to out of state where i have 0 familty
stray dock
@lapis cape Sorry, we don't facilitate job advertisements here.
sand mango
@xander the careers section is not for job recruitment, I guess, according to the upper description
stray dock
yep
molten spoke
yep, as I said in #python-discussion we want to help people learn to code, not help them hire people
sand mango
Bwt you can talk of how a boss makes an employer's day, I guess
stark copper
how many high paying cs jobs are actually high paying (read: located in a place where rent is not like $3000 a month)
like, i read stories of these guys making 6 figs at facebook and then they can't afford to live in silicon valley
stark copper
is it possible to just
not be poor anywhere in this country, i swear
tawny quartz
Yes
stark copper
i just can't help but be dubious about CS as a career when it's like
"you'll make lots of money!"
"and live in a place where that's completely meaningless!"
vapid jay
Well
tawny quartz
There are a lot of places you can work in CS
tawny quartz
Pick a city in the U.S with any sort of knowledge industry and you can probably find at least a few CS jobs there
vapid jay
I live in California
stark copper
you're prolly right
stark copper
i don't see myself living extravagantly and i don't really want to start a family
but fuck me if i ever have to live in a box with 12 people cause i had the audacity to be in california
tawny quartz
Then don't live in California
tawny quartz
Take a look
vapid jay
its hard to find jobs
tawny quartz
In Cali? Where are you?
tawny quartz
Yeah, if you're looking for a specific town, you probably won't find much on Indeed
vapid jay
tawny quartz
Oh, yeah, that seemed like a decent source as well
austere igloo
It seems to be better targeted, and recruiters can look at the technologies you have actually posted successful/helpful responses for
umbral valley
@stark copper I make $70K out of college in one of the lowest COL areas.
stark copper
👀 good lord
umbral valley
So it’s very possible to make good money not in Cali
robust finch
I’m new to programming, I work IT for a Teflon company, I’m looking into getting an entry level programming job. What are some of the things I definitely need to know? (currently studying data structures and algorithms and obviously python) and what positions are considered easiest to get into ?
umbral valley
Testing is the easiest place to get in, probably
robust finch
I was just looking into that. Basically debugging from what I can tell?
umbral valley
Yeah its kinda like QA
robust finch
@noble schooner for?
ok. i know for example that SQL is very common for production level software. in the shop I work at they just rolled out a new SQL server for a new app that we are using. and I dont have any experience in it. but when I see the error messages in console I at least know they are having an issue with .... something. maybe memory management
i usually work at my part time pc repair job on saturday, but i study after my 12 hour shifts during the week.
but i will add that to my list of things to do 😃 thanks for the advice
tawny quartz
You should also considor listening to the TalkPython or other programming podcasts during your commute
It's good to learn and keep up on what's in the industry, and gives you lots of terms to lookup when you're new
tiny blaze
!resources has a list of good podcasts
inner wrenBOT
tawny quartz
Yes
sturdy hearth
@tawny quartz Do they cover python internals or just general business/corporate items?
sturdy hearth
I was actually looking for something like this. Hopefully, I can find it on spotify
tawny quartz
Spans the gaumet from super indepth and technical to high-level
I use Podcast Addict on Android
sturdy hearth
Who are the people on the podcast?
tawny quartz
For TalkPython, it's guests from around the community
He's had Guido Von Rossum on for episode 100
But yeah, people who work or are well known in various parts of industry, open-source maintainers, etc.
sturdy hearth
Thanks. I'll definitely check it out @tawny quartz
vapid jay
Time to stop listening to comedy podcasts
limber zenith
I just wanted to come in and say thank you to you guys. It's been hard staying motivated and (even though it's not a bunch of python jobs), I've gotten a whole bunch of interviews places to the point where I feel comfortable turning down interviews with crappy companies.
limber zenith
Also, one of the companies I applied for (instead of directly turning me down directly) gave me what I consider (others might think differently) an Eng3 or 4 appropriate tier test and said "go at it, we expect it to take you anywhere from 8-30 hours"
Idk, it feels shitty instead of them saying "no" like I was thinking they would
vapid jay
@limber zenith Is English not your first language?
tiny blaze
limber zenith
@vapid jay It is, hence why it's so fragmented and generally unconnected.
vapid jay
^^^^
mild zenith
It hurts because it's relateable...
vapid jay
^
tiny blaze
relatable :^)
vapid jay
Eng is my second lang
mild zenith
My excuse is that I'm exhausted, hush
vapid jay
Lol
tiny blaze
lol not even native speakers know how to speak it properly
90% of native english speakers dont know when to use whom
mild zenith
Tie, all you can do is your best
I know that sounds corny, but it's true. Always try to give you genuine best and it'll pay off
vapid jay
Yup ^
shy pollen
My excuse is always because "I'm tired" or "I just woke up"
Today I was actully the latter, i'm off sick
delicate dawn
Where r most ppl, in this discord, who have a proper coding/ computing career from?
Please @ me ty
umbral valley
@delicate dawn hard to say. Feels like most people that I’ve seen with a job are from the US, but there are several in other countries too
delicate dawn
I don’t really
Just wanted to know what kind of computing jobs ppl do in the uk
And if they have any advice for ppl wanting to enter that sector
real python
@verbal lotus that attitude doesn’t belong on this server
real python
Not the place for any of this. @tiny blaze if you have an issue please ping a staff member
tiny blaze
alright, no issues for me
slate veldt
I have started to study Python 2 hours a day at least for the last 2 weeks, my goal is to be able to at least start freelancing within the next 60 days. I know the obvious is to just keep coding and learning everyday, but do any of you have other tips on how I could reach that goal?
tiny blaze
dont overwork yourself, if you feel like quitting take a break for a little while.
slate veldt
😃 noted
sturdy hearth
If you can freelance after 60 days, I'll quit programming
tiny blaze
if youre learning for at least 2 hours a day you could learn a decent amount
maybe not enough to do complicated freelance work
wicked shoal
2 hours a day? Dont count the hours, count the chapters or portions of what you are learning from. Im learning from Automatetheboringstuff.com. 1 chapter 1 day
2 hours is too few, takes me atleast 7 hours
Or maybe u grasp better than me
indigo sleet
I think it's good to have learning goals like that, but you shouldn't work so hard that you burn out
If you're getting frustrated then you probably need a break
tiny blaze
ive been learning 2 hours or so a day and im perfectly fine with this
well not "learning" per se
but coding
but i also have no intention of ever doing this for money
7 hours is not very achievable for most
either they dont have the schedules for it or the attention span
river sand
Im starting with my master for software engineering in 4 months so that il be my way of learning
neat anchor
not working 68 hours a week
Amateurish tbqh
You gotta be ready for the real world
Really 9 hours a day, every day is the minimum
Probably 11 hours is better though
indigo sleet
Identity crisis!
neat anchor
I just get paid to do stuff
Honestly need to pay someone to do my work
Let capitalism take its course
indigo sleet
Become a consultant consultant
neat anchor
Hmm, that would make me beholden to a group of stressed out morons like myself
tiny blaze
hire someone for cheaper to do ur work
neat anchor
Splendid idea kazo
tiny blaze
better yet hire someone from india to do it because 20$ over there is like rent
slate veldt
Lol ok thanks for all the input. I did 3 hours today, gonna try and do that from here on out
vapid jay
hey im from india.. well south to be exact.. the nicer part
the channel is not for recruitment.. but @tiny blaze is right.. you can get a lot done for $20.. Purchasing Power Parity
tiny blaze
sorry i dont know a lot about indias economy i just knew that the dollar was worth a lot more over there
tiny blaze
okay, didnt know if i was wrong or not
opal terrace
Question for those who freelance (even better if working with Python):
what areas of python do you recommend learning until one can become a freelancer?
vivid dock
Basics for starters, then its all up to you id assume. Common fields are probably testing and web dev
tiny blaze
by popular do you mean in most demand or most supply?
tiny blaze
@vivid dock sorry dont like to ping just unsure if you saw my question
unkempt ferry
I don't want to speak for them, but based on the context I would guess they either mean most in demand, or most popular all around. But that's just my understanding of the message I could be wrong
tiny blaze
yes so either, most in demand or most in supply. 😕
thats why i asked for clarification
vivid dock
Not sure how much in demand they are
tiny blaze
okay so you meant in supply
vivid dock
When its a large code base, you're gonna wanna charge for your time
tiny blaze
yea i can see that
my best friend just started learning to code but its in java and i cant read a thing
vivid dock
Pep8 in java 
native atlas
Hello, so I’m a thirteen year old kid who wants to make some money so he can buy a new pc setup. I want to make code for other people but I am not sure where to start. Please ping me with ideas 😄
mild zenith
Not really what this channel is about
mild zenith
Except it's not because an Admin is reminding you that it's not
mild zenith
So this is more about asking career questions. What to look for in a resume, what kind of opportunities in various industries, the pit falls of trying to be a freelance coder, that kind of stuff
We don't have a spot for people asking for jobs
native atlas
Ah ok
I understand I didn’t mean it that way I was just saying anywhere like online websites I can go to
mild zenith
Gooooootcha. Sorry, I misinterpreted it as such
native atlas
It’s ok I should’ve worded it correctly
Hello, so I’m a thirteen year old kid who wants to make some money so he can buy a new pc setup. I want to make code for other people but I am not sure where to start selling some codes . Please ping me with ideas 😄
river sand
Selling codes?
mild zenith
Not... really a thing
river sand
Most of the time it doesnt work like that, you actually get hired or asked by someone to write code and you get paid by them for the code you wrote
mild zenith
But in order to get hired, you have to have proof of your work. You might consider making programs and putting them up on github so you can start creating a portfolio
Assisting on various other open-source projects is also a good way to get both experience and credibility
humble elm
many small projects or a few large ones?
red shadow
what should i know about the python language before i can consider applying for any sort of python-related coding / programming job?
lost geode
how to use it and how to deploy things that you build with it
red shadow
that was obvious, but are there any specifics?
is there 1 element i should focus on learning more than another?
red shadow
yes
i've learned on my own using 1 udemy course i purchased to get myself started
i also received help from a friend who already knew some Python, so that helped me out a bit
lost geode
work on all of the projects that you can
I highly recommend Raymond Hettinger's talks on youtube
weary sable
Is it ok to talk about off topic about other programming languages? Or no?
weary sable
@rare sand oh sorry
vapid jay
whats a good cold email title for an internship
obsidian acorn
what does that mean?
vapid jay
So when you send emails
You have to put a title
A cold email is an email send to a company that isn't looking for applicants
obsidian acorn
ah, I see
have you contacted someone from the company who told you to email them?
or you are just cold emailing a bunch of companies?
obsidian acorn
and the companies you are cold-emailing, are they in cali as well or elsewhere?
obsidian acorn
I see.
obsidian acorn
if that is the case, I would suggest, look on linkedin, and get in contact with one of their managers, or perhaps go in person and talk to them
you will have a higher chance that way
they receive so many emails daily that deleting one more is not going to be a bother
vapid jay
I did an interview with one last year got rejected
obsidian acorn
but if you strike a conversation, find out what the companies might need, and how you can fit that need, you will have a better chance
that happens all the time in the working world. I have had more rejections and offers
vapid jay
Thr other 2 sound like 💩
obsidian acorn
and I am pretty sure that is the case for most people, but you only need one, as someone told me
have you held a position before?
obsidian acorn
did you do any internship?
vapid jay
No
obsidian acorn
well, with a degree and no experience, joining the tech world, you are going to have a few rejections
what degree are you graduating in?
vapid jay
Yes i know that
obsidian acorn
what are you graduating with?
obsidian acorn
well, the good news is, this world is more partial to people with a degree in cs. so you have that going for you. But by no means is it going to be a walk in the park
vapid jay
Better than other majors
obsidian acorn
oh, yeah, definitely, (besides other engineering)
so, keep at it. and don't do the cold email. ( it won't help. and if they spam your email, and later on you send in an application, and they want to get in contact with you, that can bring you to the world of unintended consequences)
If I could give any advice, keep applying, try to contact the recruiters/managers/ hiring managers via linkedin, or conferences, or meetups,
there are many ways
vapid jay
I heard recruiters are pretty bad
obsidian acorn
what do you mean?
vapid jay
Most of them cheat you
vapid jay
Has anyone taken a python internship where they focus on teaching you about puthon. And I don't mean basic stuff but like you know the main python stuff but have never really seen it in action at a professional level
red spindle
@vapid jay i don't they'd do that a lot, sounds like it'd cost a huge amount of resources for a company, wouldn't be worth it for them
slim island
one is not taught a skill at a professional level
they reach that level through a period of experience
vapid jay
how were your guys experiences moving to a new state permanently for work? i always think its going to be really hard
vapid jay
where did you go to and from where
i live in cali so if i cant get a job i guess im moving
tawny quartz
From northwest to southwest
limber zenith
Anyone here have any experience working with/for BlackRock?
inner wrenBOT
real python
That seems pretty unnecessary
tiny blaze
how so
asking if anyone has experience working with someone is just a precursor to another question
hes better off asking the real question
tiny blaze
im not trying to moderate just trying to understand what hes asking
sorry if it came off that way
ill try to cool it
real python
Then ask him
tiny blaze
ok
limber zenith
It's a fair question @tiny blaze, I guess what I'm really trying to ask is, I have an onsite interview with them on Friday, is there anything I should be worried about/know about before I go in or just try my best?
tiny blaze
ok sorry for posting that, reflecting now on i probably shouldnt have done that
hoary ivy
Is there any good python tutoring websites? I feel i need tutoring and have exhausted this discords help channel 😛 😂
wicked shoal
@hoary ivy If i teach you, will you pay me?
(we're in #career-advice so)
rare sand
!warn @wicked shoal read the topic before you post again. this channel is not for recruitment. and, honestly, "if I teach you, will you pay me?" is not a good fit for this community. We teach people for free here.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: warned @wicked shoal (read the topic before you post again. this channel is not for recruitment. and, honestly, "if I teach you, will you pay me?" is not a good fit for this community. We teach people for free here.).
rare sand
@hoary ivy https://exercism.io/ might be worth a look.
it's free, and you get assigned a "mentor" of some sort
I've heard good things but never tried it myself.
unkempt ferry
i'm actually going through it right now.
I just started pretty much, but i'm enjoying it so far. You don't get assigned a mentor, so much as there are mentors that look over your code for you.
rare sand
okay, so it's not a specific mentor? but you do get feedback from humans about your code
that still sounds pretty valuable though. glad to hear you're enjoying it
unkempt ferry
yeah!
hoary ivy
Thanks @rare sand
hoary ivy
Holy crap, that website looks perfect!
vapid jay
should i put race when applying for jobs/internships
lost geode
@vapid jay are you a minority?
real python
No
vapid jay
so whats the reason
just assume companies favor whites?
and are racist against other races
lost geode
if you are dealing with a more liberal (and less old businessmen) company then I'd say minorities should include race over whites
most more liberal companies will lean away from the white cis-male
vapid jay
cis?
lost geode
cis = non-transgendered
unkempt ferry
identifies as the gender they were assigned at birth
vapid jay
so normal
unkempt ferry
no
vapid jay
ive been looking at companies and all of them mention java
only some mention python
as preferred or a requirement
unkempt ferry
It's not funny, that's a transphobic sentiment.
vapid jay
ok
craggy wave
Why do you keep doing this, @vapid jay ?
vapid jay
im not doing on purpose, i wont comment on them anymore
im not phobic
im on the i dont care side
vapid jay
ok
umbral valley
@vapid jay Java / C++ / C# make up probably ~90% of the enterprise workflow. So you’re going to see those 3 more than anything else.
vapid jay
thanks
mild zenith
@vapid jay If you already have Java experience, C# is going to be rather easy to pick up as opposed to C++. I kind of think of it as Java: The Good version
A lot of similarities
umbral valley
For sure hemlock
Asp sucks because web dev sucks, but it’s probably the nicest framework to work with
umbral valley
It’s better in some ways for sure. Nicer to work with but java has some enterprise things that are better. Mostly relating to threading from what I recall
lost geode
J2EE is pretty powerful
mild zenith
If you take just bare bones Java vs C# I greatly prefer C#
Just feels less shaky, better put together
vapid jay
is learning Go worth it
considering there's very little support
plus.. I dont think much of Google codebase is in Go either
delicate dawn
What’s the main different uses of c++ and java?
green sinew
@vapid jay Go is up and coming.... But just the lack of any support compared to other languages means the next up-and-coming language is likely to just throw Go in the bin
obsidian acorn
@vapid jay you don't have to learn new languages just to add them to the stack, and if you don't use them, you tend to loose them a bit.
it is better to pick a language, work with it, and keep working on it. the things that you learn from that language can be transferred over to other languages when you have to learn them.
don't not learn new languages, but learn them for a purpose
vapid jay
yeah.. I find myself having to use c++ libraries all the time.. so might learn pycliff, so I can use them from python.. But I'd like to pick up something else as well along the way.. for the long term
umbral valley
@delicate dawn Java is used a lot for web services and cpp for non web services at least in the enterprise world. But there’s some bleed over too where occasionally you’ll use java for a desktop app or w/e
lost geode
@vapid jay I've seen enough buzz around Go, (including the amount of community involvement of writint the languages itself) that it is the next thing that I'm going to study after i get a couple of JS frameworks under my belt
vapid jay
How common is Python within cyber security?
I know it is used for pentesting but thats about it
vapid jay
@tawny quartz any suggestions on projects, tools etc I could check out?
tawny quartz
Scapy and Empire are two that immediately come to mind
delicate dawn
@umbral valley thanks
vapid jay
hey
so basically when i was in college the first time, i got my bachelors in psychology because i was sure i wanted to be a therapist. go to senior year and i don't wanna be a therapist. then i thought i wanted to be a lawyer, so i did a paralegal certificate program and worked as a patent paralegal for a while. i paid off all my student loans and saved up plenty of money. then i realized i don't wanna be a lawyer because it turned out lawyers are miserable
now i want to be a software dev or a webdev
i really don't want to do a second bachelor's degree because i would have to go back into debt
and i did look into the bootcamps, but their success rates don't seem very good
also they're extremely expensive
so right now i'm in a web development certificate program at a community college
i know the industry dgaf about certificates, but I did it because self teaching is difficult for me, and a classroom setting is more structured
do you think i need to go back and get a second bachelors in CS?
Hmm
i know i screwed up but changing fields multiple times
but there was no way for me to know this was what i wanted to do/be
You d idn't screw up IMO
terse bone
Yeah, I'm 100% self taught. and worked for the same company for 21 years. So I have no advice, friend. 😦
vapid jay
omg
21 years?
That's a problem endemic with education. You never really know what you want to do until you try
that's insane
i just feel like i'm wasting my 20s in school
all my friends my age (i'm 26) are getting married and traveling the world, or in graduate school getting a masters/PhD
a few are even having kids
not that i want kids
but i feel so left behind
and like i'm failing as an adult
terse bone
not knowing what you want is like the human condition.
you arent alone. Nor are you failing
the fact that you are DOING and learning proves that
its not a race. You will find your own way, at your own pace.
vapid jay
i know
but i don't want to be competing for entry level jobs with 21 year olds when i'm in my 30s
i know it's not a race
but it often feels like i'm running out of time
To be honest I think the career tracked life is kinda bullshit
i guess what makes me want it though is partly because of somebody i know
he got his bachelors in CS
landed a six figure job at 22 at a major tech company in silicon valley
terse bone
not quite a realistic goal
vapid jay
The feeling that the good times are happening somewhere else and you didn't get your ticket is pretty shitty
oh i know
well for me it's not a realistic goal
it is for a quite a lot of really young n talented students though
vapid jay
I switched careers.. im in the position you described
astral badger
One of my co workers is adding async to an api wrapper. I am not sure if that's the correct approach to make the code better/faster.
hazy sorrel
@vapid jay I'm also switching careers from being an audio engineer. I even managed to get into that industry entirely by just connections. No degree, no school. Ended up helping build up a few successful companies along the way and have had a few appearances on the BBC. Not trying to gloat but what i'm trying to portray is building connections and friendships is WAAAAAY more important than most advice that is out there. Though you can take that advice at a discounted value because i'm new to programming as well. 🤷
vapid jay
@hazy sorrel from the bottom of my heart thank you for making audio not shit
t. guy with audiotechnicas
plucky shoal
i have an interview with IBM soon. the position is for cybersecurity internship. any advice?
astral badger
Be yourself and known your shit
Also asked them questions like you don't know if the job is a good fit for you
Cause I far as you know you might I hate it
shy pollen
Also don't say you play the piano if you don't
neat anchor
@plucky shoal try to seem like an easy to work with dude
valid lark
Yeah so I've been lurking. literally at the moment learning python from scratch. I know one or two things from other stuff and am currently just going module by module on python(using different sources) trying to understand the general syntax and what to do. Kinda just learning bit by bit, ideally would like to be ready for a role of some sort within a year.
Obviously this shit is all new to me, so no idea on what kinda levels I need to understand wrt Python, whether I need certification or what. Regardless I'm just gonna learn as much as I can for now so I gain a better understanding, then when I have a plan on the roles and what I need to know for this(e.g. other technologies) I can just tailor what I'm learning towards that.
unkempt ferry
does anyone have a good resource for the type of fields/positions out there? ik i want to work somewhere with this. but im not sure what all the options are.
solemn valley
python has lots of usages, the most frequent including (but not limited to)
backend web development
dev ops
security
data science
automation in general for example as sys admin
vernal veldt
i'm from Brazil, and i want to Go to other country working with progamming
my principal language is node.js, but i'm studying python
rare sand
@vernal veldt please unfuck your nickname. we don't allow those linebreaker characters here.
vapid jay
XD
rare sand
thanks!
to be clear, you can have them in your username if you want, just not the nickname for this community
although tbh they're annoying to other communities too so you're better off this way
tawny flower
I am still in university and currently learning Python and I would say I am at a very good level on it, next year I will learn Java. I have advanced Linux knowledge I would say as well as databases. What else should I expand on to be on a competitive level after university?
solemn valley
Learn the most popular frameworks for the field you want to work in so for example in web development flask, Django pyramid etc. Also knowing multiple languages isn't necessarily a requirement to be competitive, a language is a tool to express an algorithmic structure, once you know those structures it's mostly about learning the syntax of the new language you have to use
tawny flower
The university is using Java next year so whether I want it or not I will have to learn it.
I am currently interested in Cyber Security and might also search a bit into AI, I asked in the security channel what should I read up on so I will do that.
radiant mica
I say to be competitive, take other classes outside of programming as well
tawny flower
I am currently also doing Economics with my degree, if that is what you mean.
radiant mica
Yup, thats great
A lot of programmers get lost in programming and miss the point that its a tool
business classes, economics, or even a different domain where you can apply programming will make you more well rounded
tawny flower
Alright sounds great!
radiant mica
But in terms of programming, general CS knowledge, like what you're doing now works well. You don't need to know web frameworks if you're going into Cyber/AI, but more CS knowledge
tawny flower
I am just curious sometimes and check up on job offerings and sometimes stuff seem really intimidating like what they ask you to know etcetera.
radiant mica
e.g. lots of math or networking, core computer networking fundamentals
Many people might recommend web frameworks just because majority of the jobs are in that area
solemn valley
I said web frameworks if he wants to go into web development it's of course not a must have
undone helm
Tbh I'd recommend a web framework no matter what you're going into
flask is so easy and useful, there's little excuse to not pick it up if you're learning Python
- django if you're interested in going a little deeper
radiant mica
Why would you choose a web framework if you're say a AR or VR developer though...?
undone helm
Point me to the python AR/VR development scene please
it sounds awesome
real talk though, if you're developing internet-connected applications it'd be useful to be able to make a simple API -- that seems applicable to AR/VR (especially AR)
tawny flower
I have used Flask only a tiny bit, I might look into it since it might be helpful for some stuff I am developing.
radiant mica
Swamp, I don't disagree learning a web framework might prove useful. I'm disagreeing on the point that Python == web
undone helm
Oh, who said?
tawny flower
Hmm could I use Flask to communicate to my script through my phone?
tawny flower
I used it once when testing out a pseudo-cryptocurrency.
It was pretty easy so yeah I will look more into it, do you have any recommended reading or just the docs and trying?
radiant mica
Well you kind of said it yourself...
"
Tbh I'd recommend a web framework no matter what you're going into
"
I'm offering the perspective that its not true
undone helm
- Flask docs
- Jinja2 docs
And... hm, that's pretty much it. Lots of Googling. Flask is HUGE.
@radiant mica I disagree. I'd say the same thing about Python's core data science tools (another field Python is very ubiquitous in)
Python has some amazing, extremely powerful tools that are easy to learn and are worth learning for ANY techie
Learn them.
tawny flower
Right now I love automating games/my assignments with Python so everything is going nice.
radiant mica
@undone helm , you completely changed it from web frameworks to general python tools. But anyways. We're getting off topic. @tawny flower , tl;dr learn everything and anything that interests you. It doesn't matter where you start
undone helm
You're the one who was misconstruing what I said in the first place. It was always about general python tools.
I also recommend numpy and scipy. Also check out jupyter notebooks... https://colab.research.google.com
tawny flower
Yeah we are using Jupyter for uni but I prefer my IDE for our exercises.
I am currently learning what interests me, I guess if I choose a company and they want me they won't mind me not having experience with a specific library they want.
undone helm
If you have an industry in mind, try doing a search for jobs in that industry using python on indeed.com or some other site. Look at the requirements.
Data science jobs want stuff like pandas, web dev jobs want flask and django. I'm sure there are others.
tawny flower
Seems like everyone on Indeed is asking for Django.
Also question: when they say they want MariaDB/MySQL wouldn't PostgreSQL be enough?
stoic nebula
Any recommendation for online schools for a computer science/software engineer bachelors that's somewhat reputable?
radiant mica
@stoic nebula a common one that is frequently recommended is the OSU online post bachelors if you already have a previous bachelors. If you’re looking into a first bachelors I would recommend a physical campus if you can as you’ll gain a lot of non tangible benefits such as networking possibilities. Other than that I’m not too sure on first time online bachelors
north swan
Is quitting my job as a network engineer and becoming a self taught python(and others) freelance programmer a realistic dream
obvs keep my job until i don't need it anymore and study at night time
and during work as I am doing today 😄
tawny flower
If you honestly don't like your job and want to do something else then go for it but make sure that if you quit you are able to live for the next year or so until you find a job.
Freelance I am not sure how much job there is, I would love to get some experience freelance but not sure where to search.
north swan
my job is fine. i studied and shit and then built up experience in the industry to get a decent position. It's not so much my job its THE job. going into an office 9-5 is the worst
kinda wanna start working in the direction of self employed and into the future also i believe developer will be a solid skillset
as it already is
even if it takes me years as i imagine it will to get good enough at it that i can start doing it for a living
i'm thinking long term here
knotty sand
Hey, what kinda internships are availaible for people in college where it comes down to python coding experience?
vapid jay
depends what you wanna do
sturdy hearth
Does anyone here have any experience with bootcamps?
obsidian acorn
yes, I do, what would you like to know? @sturdy hearth ?
.
@knotty sand there are plenty of internships in regards to python whilst still in college.
you can search on job sites for internships, some unis have connections with companies where they can help you get an internship, and you can request one particularly with python. Of course those may require that you take certain course prior to be allowed to participate in those internships
so @knotty sand check jobs sites, and check with your coordinator, if nothing else, they can give you some guidance
limber zenith
Okay, I'm gonna rant for a minute cause I'm not sure who to talk to here to get a sense slap or a reassuring pat on the back... The more I think about it, the more I swear to myself that I should be a technical consultant or a sales engineer (or something similar) since it will be more techy, and also play to my almost painfully extroverted nature. Thoughts? Anyone do something similar?
hollow finch
anyone here hybrid datascientist/developers?
knotty sand
@obsidian acorn Thanks! Any suggestions on job sites besides the usual like glassdoor, monster, etc? I mean, particularly code/it/software/such related job sites
Tiebroken, i hear its hard to get sales engg unless you can show some of that extroverted personality through your resume / application / interview (as needed; idk if formal or word of mouth, how u plan to do it) when you apply. and not to mention stuff like psychology minor, business minor, or at least 6 credits worth of courses that are specifically this kinda thing, will help a lot.
limber zenith
@knotty sand, how does 5 years of fraternity, including recruitment related executive positions, and a job as a campus ambassador to high school students sound? (Not tooting my own horn, actually trying to gauge if I should start applying or start shopping around for an MBA or similar degree)
Maybe an ETM degree?
limber zenith
Aaaaand update, I got an offer from a company I've been interviewing, would be a 17% pay increase plus a bonus
tawny flower
Good job!
knotty sand
sounds like the good kind of resume fodder, but you'll have tomake the connect beyween all that and the sales engg job clearer. At a glance, like most companies will give, all that is related, yes, but not really the stuff they are looking for. Emphasize the dealing with people aspects of all that
sturdy hearth
@obsidian acorn I am in a different field, a few years out from college
obsidian acorn
@sturdy hearth so, what would you like to know?
many a people from different field used bootcamp as we bridge to gather some knowledge that would allow them to get their feet through the door
keep in mind that bootcamps are just that, bootcamps. They do not replace a 4 year degree, and most of them are too short to be considered a trade program. But they do preview you with the e some of the work you may be seeing in the field.
and some of them even provide support to help you find a starting position.
So, the main thing that you should take out of all the things that i just stated is that you get what you put in out of bootcamp.
if you go in all out, put as much effort into STUDYING and PRACTICING, what you are learning, then you are on the right track
feel free to tag me for any particular questions
@sturdy hearth
knotty sand
@obsidian acorn
obsidian acorn
sup?
knotty sand
Could you suggest any good websites for finding coding related jobs?
obsidian acorn
for those, I would say linkedin may be your best bet
that is in addition to the usuals that you mentioned alredy
that does not mean you should do just one and ignore the rest, because you may have to apply to many of them before getting an interview/coding challenge
And also, with linkedin, try to find the recruiters for the company you want to apply for, and start a conversation to see what they are looking for and how you can feel that position. @knotty sand
knotty sand
Thanks speedy!
obsidian acorn
no problem, any time
and congrats @limber zenith what position did you get? and what does it entail?
sturdy hearth
Do you know anything about online bootcamps? @obsidian acorn
Hybrid (e.g. meet in person only weekends) would be good too
obsidian acorn
these will vary based on your location, how much you are willing to put into it, and how much you are willing to pay. Some of them are free, for others, the online version can be less expensive than in person, whilst others, in persons are also less expensive compared to others.
In addition to that, each program may have particular set of programming languages, and topics they teach/use. So, your decision, will be based on those as well.
so, in person vs hybrid vs online, all hold similar value, it all depends on how much you are willing to put into it. Some people (like me) are in person type, some people may be in person type, but also have a day job that would prevent them to o so, thus muct do online, and others just prefer, and can do online
if you are the latter, it may be just as beneficial to just find a career guideline, and study and start apply for positions whence you feill ready. Though you would not have the support of the bootcamp to help you find a position
@sturdy hearth what are you looking for exactly?
.
what field are you in, and what are you trying to switch into?
unkempt ferry
is it viable, or decently possible, to get a job without a bachelors degree if you have a portfolio of programs you've made?
meager notch
It depends on where you live, what kind of company you are looking for, and what kind of position you are applying for. Knowing someone will help you get in a lot better in all circumstances. Popular and large companies will look for professional experience in your resume if you don't have a degree. In the end, if you meet the requirements, you are just fighting against other applicants.
unkempt ferry
ok, I'd be living around Seattle by the time i'm looking, but would be open to relocating. and i'm not even sure what i'm looking for yet. I stlil have to figure that out.
for professional experience, is that solely other jobs? or would work on open source projects count towards that as well?
meager notch
I would try for smaller businesses if you don't have a degree in Seattle. Otherwise you better be really good at selling yourself and those projects better be large scale. Professional experience could be anything, but if you only have open source experience, it doesn't look like you have the qualifications for most engineering positions. Developer positions are more flexible, but vary widely.
spiral tide
Hello folks, anyone here that have gone a coding bootcamp? Please ping me.
daring sundial
Eh
That will only really be kids learning scratch
Either that or I won’t be very serious
And it would be basic stuff too
@spiral tide
spiral tide
Is your first statement for me? Or the ping only haha
Anyway, I'm on the fork of the road whether to enroll in a coding bootcamp at Rice, in Houston. I'm looking for someone to show me the ropes of employment after the bootcamp itself. @daring sundial
obsidian acorn
@spiral tide scroll up just a bit, and see my conversation with Main name is the Membrane
if that does not answer your question, feel free to ping me
limber zenith
@obsidian acorn I'll be a Jr. Software Engineer for BlackRock inc. I wasn't expecting a call back because (despite the good interview with the managers) I didn't have such a great interview with a couple of devs on a different team because they were Indian and didn't respond well to my jokes and overall it went less than optimally.
I'd be on a "new project" and that's all I was told.
Which is significantly better than my current job of repeatedly making selenium webscraping bots
granite pine
Congrats @limber zenith
umbral valley
New projects are fun @limber zenith That’s my life right now. Working on something “new” for the army
limber zenith
Thanks guys, I'd be working in Java, but the ability to learn RESTful apis and spring boot is gonna be super useful
vapid jay
I can enroll in a BA CS program, BS CS program, or a BS Software Engineering program at a college I'm applying to
My question is, does it matter if I have a BA in CS or a BS in CS that much?
I'm looking at the BA and BS program and they're pretty much identical exceptt the BA program has fewer math classes and no natural science requirement
All the core CS classes are the same
main thicket
@vapid jay it doesn't really matter for most things. Math can be helpful though for eg. For ML or gamedev
tiny blaze
whats ML
wanton holly
machine learning.
tiny blaze
oh
what type of math is needed for gamedev exactly?
i wouldnt imagine anything much past alegbra
main thicket
Lots of linear algebra and calculus potentially
main thicket
Need maths to talk about 3d rigid body dynamics. Quaternions, rotation matrices, kinematics, etc
Important for 3d games
tiny blaze
how long does it take to learn all this stuff ?
main thicket
Depends on who you are
Maths isn't that bad, most people can learn to love it when they learn it properly
main thicket
Learn concepts rather than how to solve problems. Learn in your own, take proper interest: math is quite beautiful, believe it is even if you don't think so right now
Essence of calculus and essence of linear algebra are great series on YouTube. Pair them up with a proper calculus or linear algebra book
tiny blaze
okay then
vapid jay
@light summit they say they have coop for CS and software engineering
don't think ba/bs matters
obsidian acorn
ba/bs matters only if you are interested in pursuing further education
as in, if later on, you decide you want to get a masters or doc, they will require those classes
so, you would have to go back and get those math/sci classes before you can apply
but besides that, not really.
but as stated before, gaming involves a lot of math, so, it may be just as helpful to just take care of them now
@vapid jay
vapid jay
hmmmm
good points
i think in the software engineering program you're required to take physics i/ii
obsidian acorn
exactly
vapid jay
bio/chem is essentially useless ....
obsidian acorn
I am going through the same atm. I am even though I have been working in the field, I still have to take a bunch of those classes before I can get a cs master
light summit
the bach degree is enough tho right>?
vapid jay
bio/chem + cs useful if you can get into pharma..
$ is huge.. job security for life.. but one of the toughest sectors to break into
obsidian acorn
oh, yeah
definitely,
higher degrees are only for people who have nothing better to do except get a paper that says you pay a tone of money for something that may or many not be useful
real python
That's a bit hyperbolic
real python
No, it's just not an accurate statement
obsidian acorn
that is true, I concur, it is an exaggeration
vapid jay
concur*
obsidian acorn
thanks
vapid jay
I don't think it's an exaggeration..
some people do that..
I knew a linguist..she was nuts.. always talking about deep learning, ml, bla bla..
obsidian acorn
I mean, I have 2 of them, and going for a 3rd one. so ...
obsidian acorn
interestingly enough, one of mines is in linguistics
vapid jay
I know another linguist, who worked for four years doing nlp stuff, and brushing up her programming skills, mostly c++ some python.. now she heads a big product at a major tech company..
I guess background really doesn't matter.. long as you're willing to put the work into it.. back up your goals with required skills
obsidian acorn
exactly
plus, although (as I stated) masters and up may not be useful, they do allow you many opportunities, such as changing careers, and/or combine them
vapid jay
meeting people
obsidian acorn
but if you know what you want to do, and get a degree for that, and stick to it, then you are fine
vapid jay
aye
vapid jay
@vapid jay could you elaborate more on chem/bio being useful for CS?
I'm talking to someone who is about to finish a biochemistry degree and wants to get into computer programming
She was gonna be a pharmacist but no longer wants to be one
main thicket
@obsidian acorn that is a hugely ignorant statement and couldnt be further from truth
there are many fields that are very hard to break into without higher degrees
for almost all sciences, if you dont have a PhD, you dont have a career in that field at all
for engineering, masters is a path to a technically focused career in a specialisation
PhDs are a gateway into industry R&D and academic research
for data science, masters or phd are the norm
"higher degrees are only for people who have nothing better to do except get a paper that says you pay a tone of money for something that may or many not be useful" sounds like a statement from an ignorant software dev with little exposure that doesnt deal with any higher level theory in their work
main thicket
@vapid jay Bioinformatics is becoming a popular field. Lots of money in applying computation to large amounts of biological data
vapid jay
@main thicket Good advice! She said she was gonna go for a masters in bioinformatics if she can't land a job after she graduates
And she doesn't want to switch her degree to a CS degree cuz she is about to graduate in a year
That was before you said anything tho
Sounds like a complicated field tho
main thicket
It's good for people that are into both CS and medical stuff. Lots of HPC, lots of algorithms
It's interesting looking in from the outside anyway, I dont know much apart from what I've learnt from others
All I know is the bioinformaticians are taking up all the supercomputer time I want to use for robotics
vapid jay
Its not something most pppl can do
I'm terrible at chem/bio
At least I was in high school
main thicket
most people cant do any of the more specialised fields. most are limited to more common software engineering: mobile, web, desktop app dev
vapid jay
It was too much memorizing for bio, and chem was so arbitrary
main thicket
other fields, from ML to robotics to bioinformatics to embedded dev to whatever require too much knowledge from other fields, whether engineering, maths or bio
vapid jay
@main thicket Actually I was thinking about that
I just got into coding and I'm reading some of these introductory algorithms books
main thicket
funnily enough, those more specialised fields are where all the technical fun is
vapid jay
These concepts have been around since like 1960s
Its not computer science, its more like computation science
main thicket
oh yeah computer science is not about computers and it's not a science
vapid jay
And all these languages we're learning, or I'm learning
main thicket
it's about the theoretical logic and maths behind computation
vapid jay
Like python, java, etc
Its all gonna be for nothing in like 10-20 years
Its not gonna look anything remotely like it did before
main thicket
not really, C has been around for 50 years mind you
most languages arent that fundamentally different from C
vapid jay
Hmm
tiny blaze
@main thicket there are reasons to not get a phd you know...
main thicket
depends on the field
tiny blaze
it isnt an all pros no cons
vapid jay
Nah screw that I ain't getting no PHD
main thicket
I am for sure getting a PhD
tiny blaze
most employers wont employ you long time in fear of you asking for more money or leaving to do your own research
main thicket
as I said, depends on what you want to do
vapid jay
Raggy why do you want a PHD?
main thicket
I feel like the "common people" mistake what a PhD is for
tiny blaze
my mom has a PHD and has a ton of credentials in her field but can barely get a low end job
main thicket
the kind of people that get PhDs arent the kind of people that want the average job
vapid jay
@tiny blaze PHD in what?
tiny blaze
sorry if im taking a long time to reply, my internet is really crappy
main thicket
sure a PhD in computer science isnt going to be well taken in a webdev sweatshop. But people who get PhDs dont want to work in webdev sweatshops
vapid jay
u should ask her lol
tiny blaze
shes asleep
vapid jay
i feel like you should know that 😛
main thicket
it gears them for more technical roles, whether as a CTO in a startup or as an ML engineer or as a lead in algorithmic design
in a big place
main thicket
@vapid jay To answer your question, eventual goal is design and control of legged robots
Industrial RnD is a really good place to be for people who enjoy their engineering field technically
Pays decent, you're constantly doing stuff that is fun and cutting edge
tiny blaze
well either way if we "misunderstood" what a PhD was for im glad i said something because i couldnt tell from what you were saying any of what youve said now
so we all come out with more knowledge
just because someone could get a phd doesnt mean they should
main thicket
Literally no one said that they should
the original claim was higher degrees are only for people who have nothing better to do except get a paper that says you pay a tone of money for something that may or many not be useful
tiny blaze
yea?
i wasnt challenging anyone
i was stating my opinion
PhDs can be useful for some people but if you just want to work in the industry you shouldnt go for it
unless you want one but i dont think youll get hired if you do that
not as often anyways
main thicket
that's again, missing the entire point. no one says you should get a PhD if you can. you still would want to get one depending on what part of industry. it certainly only makes you more hireable if you're going into a PhD in the right field for the right job.
main thicket
your opinion is incomplete and lacking nuance
tiny blaze
unlike yours?
main thicket
yes
tiny blaze
so how is my opinion incomplete
main thicket
it fails to take into account any details: many industries are very hard to get into for someone without a PhD. many positions wont hire lower than a PhD. saying "in the industry" lacks any detail: what industry??? there's thousands, with different levels of formal depth and different requirements
tiny blaze
what industry are you referring to
my opinion may have been incomplete, i apologize for that
main thicket
ML and data science, Compiler dev at large companies, specialised parts of embedded dev as an example in CS. Lots lots lots more in Engineering: robotics, integrated chip design, many positions in automotive and aerospace design, material engineering, geotechnical engineering
Those with PhDs in industry take charge of research and dev at the cutting edge forefront of the industry or take technical leadership and management positions
The people that make integrated circuits for your electronics are more likely than not PhDs, the people making core design at Intel and Nvidia are more likely than not PhDs, the person who signed off on the aerodynamic design of the latest SpaceX rocket more likely than not has a PhD, the leaders overlooking the design of your cars at Volkswagen is more likely than not a PhD
Yeah you're absolutely right that people would be more careful about hiring a PhD in the average low level job. But the person who's doing their PhD often doesnt want that kind of low level job
tiny blaze
key word is often
my mom got a phd because she loved education
she didnt want a high end job at some place fancy
i just wanted to warn anyone who mightve wanted a phd for the education
or something similar
main thicket
🤷 That's a minority case. I'm not telling you your mom made the right decision by getting a PhD, it's her problem if she didnt. I'm just saying that saying a PhD is less likely to be employed for a position or saying you shouldnt go for it if you want to work in industry is ignorant
tiny blaze
and im not telling you that PhDs are bad for everyone or even more than a minority
unkempt ferry
i mean i heard the same thoughts from my comp sci professor who.... had his phd
so it might not be That Ignorant
main thicket
The prof is again talking about the same kind of average job. Nothing you said was wrong for the average job
It's just missing context: PhDs dont do a PhD to do an average job
unkempt ferry
no, he was talking about general, roughly universal boundaries that he started encountering after getting his phd. nothing about an average job, and i'd appreciate you not telling me what someone said when i was there to listen and you weren't
tiny blaze
that was the context i was giving wasnt it
main thicket
On the other hand, I'm constantly surrounded by PhDs. Both in a more industry position: in particular, a company that does ML and in a research organisation (CSIRO). In neither of the places do the people regret doing PhDs
For the former, they're earning bank doing ML in industry. For the latter, they're constantly solving problems on the edge of what can be consider sci-fi
tiny blaze
but ML isnt the same as CS
main thicket
🤷 I also know many people at CSIRO with PhDs in CS working on formal verification, functional programming, cryptography etc research. CSIRO isnt running out of different kinds of PhDs
vapid jay
@main thicket he's right though
people go to grad school to avoid unemployment
I worked with functional programming for years.. it's not nearly as complicated as OOPs
Depends on the person but it's a common thing
main thicket
👀 functional programming can easily far surpass OOP in difficulty
vapid jay
no.. not really.. for me OOps is more complicated
@main thicket that's just like your opinion man, you have to do the maths on opportunity cost/explicit costs of a PhD and it comes out to not being worth it in a lot of industries
functional programming requires understanding of underlying systems.. everything else is fairly straightforward to implement
main thicket
@vapid jay you're very happy with the concept of applicative functors, monads, dependent typing, monomorphism restriction, fixed point combinators etc?
@vapid jay i agree, oppotunity cost doesnt always balance out. but a lot of people do PhDs because they enjoy things technically and for many fields, there is no way to get into the meat of things without the phd
between a lower salary for a few years and a job i dont enjoy anywhere as much, I know what I'll take
vapid jay
Fair enough, people just oversimplify and say higher degree = better when PhD can actually result in worse unemployment in certain fields
anecdotally I know a chemE PhD who spent like 8 months looking for a job
awww
did he get a job
if he was just a bachelors
woulda taken way less time
yeah he did
main thicket
Well he had the right idea. Probably should have gone for masters not for PhD though
vapid jay
he had 4 years experience so he got fucked
chemE only does phd and bachelors
chemE masters don't really exist
because 4 years > 5 for experienced and <2 for entry
main thicket
Dunno where you are but they definitely do
vapid jay
Minnesota
I've talked to two chemE and they both side it's either PhD or bust
but idk much about it myself
both those guys went to the top chemE school in the country though
main thicket
You can do an MSc in ChemE the same way you can in other fields. It's not at all uncommon
I know 2 people who actually have done that in the US in fact
vapid jay
oh nice
main thicket
Masters arent really a thing in fields like physics or maths other than when you early exit out of PhDs, but they're very very normal in any field of engineering
vapid jay
I might apply for econ or finance PhD programs
I like it a lot but the bachelors courses for those fields are garbage
main thicket
I hear the same thing about psych undergrads
vapid jay
no offense to the lads who do them
if you actually want to do economics start with a bachelors in math maybe
I know some guys who go to Carlson and even that's some pretty low IQ garbage no offense
main thicket
I think they're just sort of "default choices" for people who dont have interests in other technical fields which really sucks for people who enjoy those fields
(My girlfriend is in psych and hates her undergrad degree)
vapid jay
even Carlson which is like top 20 is still brainlet tier pseudoscience
sturdy hearth
Why do you keep insulting a group of people and following up with "no offense"?
vapid jay
because there's a minority who aren't dumb in that group
just because you pick econ and econ is fairly easy without quant aspects doesn't mean you yourself are dumb
There's general trends and then there's individuals
you can classify majors by avg IQ
main thicket
IQ is meaningless
vapid jay
but I'll stop this discussion since I don't really care
it's just my personal opinion
I could care less about the life outcomes of an education major
I just said it as an offhand remark regarding some things
Yeah I guess
"sports management" majors exist is all I'm saying
craggy wave
No, not "I guess", just don't use it like that
vapid jay
try defending that
main thicket
Elitist views dont belong here, sorry
vapid jay
mb if I offended you
I have a very blunt way of writing and oversimplify things to save time instead of writing walls of text
fleet agate
I have a quick question over python. How viable is python for increasing job chances in IT or widening the amount of jobs you can take/do?
jolly escarp
Very
fleet agate
That doesn't fully answer my question 😛
Like how many companies are currently using python and how many are needing programmers who use python
Or need in general people who can use python
jolly escarp
Big companies do so smaller companies tend to follow the trend
Instagram uses instagram, google have a big portion of their code in python
Also facebook and other ai companies, most their research code is in python
I think google have more than 20% of their app code in python, but my source might be wrong
Banks in Canada use mostly Java, but they recently adopted Python, I got hired in one of these new positions for network automation. Python is one of the best suited language for this kind of automation (you could do it with any language but Cisco, F5, etc wrote their sdks in python)
I also made the switch to python because of the ease of it
I don't want to spend a day doing something I can do in 2hours
tiny blaze
instagram is coded in python isnt it
tiny blaze
but uh that only answers half of his questions
jolly escarp
What half did I miss
tiny blaze
how many are needing programmers who use python
compact slate
lots
limber rampart
you can take a look at job openings in your area to answer that question
knowing OOP and being proficient with python will automatically make it much easier for you to pick up another OOP language if needed
it'll look good on your resume regardless of whether they directly ask for it or not
gentle smelt
@pine beacon go for computer science imo 😄
jolly escarp
@tiny blaze yeah a lot of job opportunities, also it's the fastest growing
vapid jay
lol
pine beacon
COMPUTER SCIENCE!
vapid jay
Yes
grand flicker
hey guys so i see this is the careers section..so im interested in learning computer science (python), i just stared a class on my high school and it really looks cool so i asked my self if there's a python discord and here i am 
👏
tiny blaze
nice 👍
obsidian acorn
awesome @grand flicker we welcome you
grand flicker
perhaps this could be my passion that's within me waiting to be exposed to the world🤔 
obsidian acorn
if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask, we are here to help
grand flicker
be careful asking for my questions... i will spam you thousands of questions down in your throat so don't blame my curiosity 😃 thrust me my curiosity kill people
wanton holly
just as long as your questions are reasonable and you keep your patience with the people helping you, feel free to ask as many as you want. :)
grand flicker
of course
tender frost
earth_is_flat = False
if earth_is_flat:
print("the earth is flat")
else:
print("the earth isn't flat")``` @sand agateEz :p
sand agate
@rare sand i like how you mark me when 999 of other people talk off topic, cheers 😄
rare sand
!warn @sand agate please keep this channel on-topic, thanks.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: warned @sand agate (please keep this channel on-topic, thanks.).
vapid jay
syntax error where
hazy wing
@sand agate what a great question for international pi day
vapid jay
someone got an award for calculating more values of pi
I want to do something like that.. using GCP... wondering about the methodology.. that'd be an impressive feat.. can put it on your resume
tawny flower
Don't they have like thousands of computers calculating it?
The chances of one person doing it alone must be really low.
vapid jay
she did it on GCP
which is why it's impressive.. have to code to use all those machines.. at once
sterile coral
so, i work in the design department of my company doing mainly CAD work. I end up doing very repetitive work. So, I figured, "Hell, I know some Python, why cant I automate some of this?"
So I started working on a script to automate some of the processes that my department has to do and showed it to my manager. He fell in love with the software package I proposed. Turns out this project will save us a LOT of time. I just completed phase 1 (two more phases to go) and so far, it seems like this will end up being an added responsibility
this will be awesome. i am getting paid to play
main thicket
@sterile coral cant mention magical CAD package and not link it! there's engineers around here
main thicket
What's the software package you're talking abuot?
sterile coral
that is my software i am writing in python
main thicket
Ahh right right, what's it do?
sterile coral
i work for a construction company. I am in the CAD/design department, We have to do submittal documents as well. This involves power calcs and datasheets
The phase 1 of my project is a datasheet builder. I wrote two scripts. the first one reads a json file and updates all of our datasheets on a weekly basis
the second script has a gui with checkboxes that we can use to check all of the datasheets we need. it then combines all of the datasheets together and asks where you want to save the file.
Phase 2 will incorporate the submittal coversheets. I will enter the job number and it will pull all of the customer and project data needed out of our accounting software database (sql)
@main thicket hope that sums it up enough. I cant get into too many specifics due to it being work related. but hot damn, it is fun to be able to program and get paid for it
tiny blaze
is fizzbuzz still asked for these days?
i found it relatively simple to do in a short amount of time
and <20 lines
main thicket
it's not meant to be hard, it's meant to weed out people who dont know how to program at all so you dont waste time on them
main thicket
the actual hard questions that are asked are CS questions
tiny blaze
yea...
main thicket
eg. questions that require you to understand AVL trees or (2,3) trees or be able to implement DFS to find if a graph is cyclic etc
main thicket
Any software engineering job in general. These are the kind of questions I'm expecting on a Software Eng internship phone interview in a couple days
tiny blaze
whats software engineering entail?
main thicket
Writing software?
main thicket
Such as?
tiny blaze
not software engineering