career-advice

[umbral valley]

Most testing is also automated. So as a test engineer, you’re looking at ways to develop new automation rather than just writing unit tests

[obsidian acorn]

second that

so, it might not be as boring as you might imagine, you may spend much of your time trying to improve on existing testing systems, or create new more efficient ones

[obsidian goblet]

I do some unit/functional testing on a daily basis, this is the only experience I have in testing so I think I know the technologies but it's hard to imagine that it can be something that does not get repetitive at some point. I assume you still spend a majority of your time writting these tests since that's what the client is waiting for

[primal wasp]

tho remember, always test, test 100% of your code

Uncle Bob teachings 😛

[obsidian acorn]

you took Uncle Bob's course too?

[primal wasp]

xD naaa just reading all his books the Clean series

[solid tusk]

How to prep for entry level interviews?

[umbral valley]

After doing a bunch of them, about 5 this week alone, honestly not much prep is needed from my experience. i haven't been asked to write any code or any theory. Just about personality and stuff to see if you're someone they want to invest money in to become non entry level, since they're expecting to train you for things you don't know.

but that might not be the standard, I suppose, just my experience interviewing

but im also interviewing with a degree, without one thgat may change

[solid tusk]

I'm in the process of getting a degree but it's not really related to programming

So I probably don't know a lot of the theory that's being taught

And algorithms etc

[karmic bramble]

Celsius

[obsidian goblet]

I agree with what clay said

[wanton holly]

i agree with what bytecommander said

[karmic bramble]

It's also very important to research the company where you are applying before, and the exact position. It always leaves a bad impression when you have no idea what you're actually doing there and why.

One might underestimate that

[obsidian goblet]

my case was not really common, but they actually told me that they've chosen me over someone with a programming degree for a programming internship even if I don't have one myself because that probably means I was geniunely interested in programming, I wasn't here because it's what I've spent X years studying. They thought that I would be open-minded and would easily jump on different subjects. I don't say that you have to use my case as a generality, it's not, but it's definitely not something you should be worried about now. They are usually looking for someone who wants to learn, not someone who already knows.

spoiler: you'll learn everything as you start the job anyway

also, I've been working for 2 years with that team, and I still am

[primal wasp]

@obsidian goblet following your example, in Brazil there is this Startup called Codus, in their interview they only ask you to solve some logical problems and test your english speaking skills through some pretty much basic questions like "How much did you like Game of Thrones? could you specify some episodes or moments?" most of their crew (at least the the internship and Jrs) are not even from the Area

FYI they use mostly Ruby on Rails
their site:
https://www.codus.com.br/en/home-en/

[sweet citrus]

I have a question, what is the best way to break into the tech field after 1.5 years of IT consulting? I am in Texas and been wanting to move to Austin. Any help won't hurt

[mellow agate]

a certificate won't hurt, or any form of formal study, some self study on top and a portfolio of prior projects to show what you've done so far.

main thing is making yourself known though

if you feel you're ready to get into a field, send applications

[umbral valley]

How much room is there for negotiation in entry level positions? I’ve got a job offer right now for $38K. Which is okay, but about $20K under average in my area. So I want to counter for $48k. Is that too much?

[tidal socket]

r/personalfinance ?

[solid tusk]

@umbral valley They will probably give you a counter offer if it's too much.

[umbral valley]

I like the stack the company uses but they just pay so little

Yeah that’s what I’m thinking too

[vale heart]

sounds like a bit of a red flag, no?

if they're lowballing you right at the start like this who knows what other things theyll try to pull later down the line

[viscid sandal]

What country are you in Clay? Pay numbers are relative

[umbral valley]

Right. I’m using the avg for my location per Glassdoor and I’m in a very tech area of the US

That’s fair too @vale heart but I’m not sticking around forever. Just getting more experience to help my goal of getting a security clearance

[solid tusk]

What about benefits?

Also is the 60k an average for entry level positions or?

[umbral valley]

it is around me specifically

can't speak for the rest of the US

[sweet citrus]

If I am trying to relocate from Houston to Austin, is it better to put my friend's Austin address or simply "Relocating to Austin February 2019" on it instead?

Obviously I don't want to lie to a future prospective employer but I at least want to bypass pesky Applicant Tracking Systems at the very least

[umbral valley]

off some quick google searches it just says to mention willing to relocate on the resume / cover letter as standard, and then go more in depth about relocation during your cover letter

[burnt lion]

Has anyone here heard of Affirm? Unicorn python shop

[umbral valley]

the finance company?

[sweet citrus]

Sigh, I hate writing cover letters...

But thanks for the tip

[burnt lion]

@umbral valley yes

Have you heard of them?

[umbral valley]

i've heard of them yes but nothing beyond hearing of them

[burnt lion]

Do you have a sense of how they're regarded? I'm currently deciding between an offer from them and amazon

[umbral valley]

No more than something like glassdoor could provide

[burnt lion]

ah okay, thanks anyway though

[lunar harness]

wrong channel?

i think theres some unanswered question in #web-development

[vapid jay]

the best you think you are, the more average you probably are

[lunar harness]

i rate dat

[tidal socket]

He might be an expert 🤷‍♀️

[vapid jay]

Hello

I want to learn Python and Data Science

Anyone know where the best place to start would be?

for python, check out

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/info/resources

[vapid jay]

not sure about data science

[sudden hearth]

@vapid jay I think http://dataquest.io has excellent material, wish it had been around when I was starting up.

[vivid dock]

Should I consider a master's in information science, or focus full-time on my intern / trainee position doin JavaScript/c# fullstack after summer? Alternatively a master's in something else

I want to consider doing a master's in something while I'm already studying. But I feel like I'm already a step ahead with an unconditional inter job within programming

[umbral valley]

Kinda depends on what you wanna do. Not really a right answer here honestly

[vivid dock]

What sounds fun, is to continue study and be a course assistant for a few more years as it pays, contrary to what the intern job does

Dunno if I can still teach if I finish as a student

[icy berry]

you should ask Ves about that, 17 years ago you had to be a student to be a course assistant.

[vivid dock]

@craggy wave

[icy berry]

in my experience it is easier to get a programming job if you are young and inexperienced, so getting into the marked is not a bad idea either

I might be wrong with this, but I would have difficulties getting the same job as you due to my age and experience

[vivid dock]

Im already in, but its not like my ideal job as its fullstack js(react/redux/typescript) + c#

And its unpaid atm

[icy berry]

I worked for years with JS as well...

[vivid dock]

But it is a nice workplace for sure

Good people, located in one of the newer towers in bergen

Down to the bones its work as an intern until I land something full time, or continue with masters, probably also be a course assistant and spend any free time at the intern job.

[icy berry]

I regret not finishing my degree to this day..

not that I need it for anything atm, but i still regret it

[vivid dock]

I will finish my bachelor by summer. But idk how much thag counts

[craggy wave]

I think it depends on the university you're working at or the country you're in. At my university, you need to be a student to be what we call a "student-assistent", but we also have "research and education employees" that do similar tasks. However, here they typically want people with a master degree for that, although exceptions can be made.

[vivid dock]

Thats what I was guessing the case was

BBut ill make sure to ask

Id also love to focus on intern and teach students when I can without having to do a masters

Alternative would be take a new bachelor

[craggy wave]

Yeah, that's something to figure out

[vivid dock]

Asked around and I can be a TA without being a student and they want at least a master student to teach the 200 level subject (more specialized subjects for later years of bachelor)

[vapid jay]

@sudden hearth thanks. I'll try that out

[solid tusk]

I got an email notification from a place I applied for an internship

"Thanks for the interest in our company, we will be in touch with all the applicants by next week"

Thanks for the heart rate increase..

[tidal monolith]

So my objective is to graduate school and afterwards study in the field of CompSci... However I'm not really sure if a basic CompSci course without any specializing is even worth it, and where I should study to get the best value out of it here in Germany. Does someone have some advice? :o

[sweet citrus]

So I got an email from a recruiter in a well-known consulting firm back in Friday. I promptly responded with my availability for a phone screening an hour after. They still haven't responded back to me... what should I do? Just accept the loss, wait, or follow up?

[rare sand]

last friday? that's only a single workday ago.

"accept the loss" is a bit dramatic

[sweet citrus]

So accept that I'm impatient 😂

[rare sand]

yeah you should wait a little longer and then follow up if you haven't heard anything by say next friday.

[sweet citrus]

My experience with recruiters is that they are fairly quick, but I guess everyone has their own timeline. I'm aggressively unemployed so it feels like an eternity

[rare sand]

also your availability may have been too short notice?

[sweet citrus]

How do you mean? I basically responded with "yeah I'm available these days and am totally willing to work with your schedule if they're inconvenient times"

In a professional way of course

[rare sand]

oh I got thrown by your sentence

sorry my bad

that's good then

[sweet citrus]

No worries -- thanks sir

[rare sand]

I hear you, re aggressively unemployed.

sadly, the recruiter is probably not in as much of a hurry as you are.

[sweet citrus]

Just keeping my fingers crossed. Been getting ghosted by everyone lately

Yep, I understand lol

[rare sand]

I've very rarely been contacted for availability, given a prompt answer, and then been ignored forever. I mean, why would they contact me in the first place if they weren't gonna use the info for something?

[sweet citrus]

Exactly

[rare sand]

usually they do get back. but I have seen it take a week

[sweet citrus]

To be fair, I have waited a week to get back to recruiters too

So karma at its finest

[rare sand]

haha. yeah

[sweet citrus]

A job hunt is very humbling to say the least

[rare sand]

anyway, best of luck with it. and do follow up if you don't hear something all week.

they might forget you

[sweet citrus]

Will do, thanks

Eh I dont blame them. everyone is overqualified these days apparently

[rare sand]

depends where you are I guess.

[sweet citrus]

This is for an entry level position lol

per se

[rare sand]

over here in norway, devs are swimming in job offers.

[sweet citrus]

Wow really?

[rare sand]

yeah, there's a real demand

although of course entry level is always harder to find

[sweet citrus]

Wow, are there any countries that would ever hire an American?

[rare sand]

haha, we like americans over here. especially in dev.

but it's hard to immigrate

[sweet citrus]

Dang, what are some good job sites to look for Norway jobs?

Oh I bet

because of the work visa situation?

[rare sand]

we got very tight immigration policies, it's tricky. the employer wants you to be a citizen or have a permanent visa, the people giving out visas want you to have a job, or marry a norwegian.

[sweet citrus]

That whole Norway/Finland/Denmark/Sweden is supposedly the happiest countries in the world

[rare sand]

it's possible, but you'd be hard pressed to find entry level stuff willing to help you move here.

maybe when you're more experienced.

[sweet citrus]

I understand

[rare sand]

and yeah the nordic countries are not a bad place to be

[supple axle]

mhhh...can't every EU citizen work in every EU country?

[rare sand]

Norway isn't in the EU.

but we do respect the Schengen agreement

which essentially opens our borders to EU citizens. to a certain degree.

[supple axle]

ohh ic, my bad

[rare sand]

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area for more info on that

[sweet citrus]

Is Oslo the place to be in terms of tech?

[rare sand]

yes

far more jobs than other major cities.

this is also probably true for the other capitals

stockholm, copenhagen, etc.

and those are even larger

I had to move to Oslo to find my first job as a dev, used to live down southwest.

[sweet citrus]

Did you move before you had a job?

[rare sand]

no, they offered me the job if I moved.

so I moved.

[sweet citrus]

Lol naturally

[rare sand]

have a wife and kid so it was a bit of an uprooting but we're all happier over here anyway

[sweet citrus]

I understand

Good to hear

[rare sand]

getting perhaps a little off-topic here, sorry

[candid vortex]

@rare sand i think it's very #career-advice relevant imo

I'm Australian, I think there seems to be reasonable demand here. I don't live in the the major cities though but my wife doesn't want to move, haha

[austere bluff]

Is anyone a Data Engineer here

[vivid dock]

There's probably a few, or a few with the knowledge of being one. Did you have a question towards that career path?

[austere bluff]

haha just looking for someone to chat with regarding this career path

[drifting viper]

i heard it's boring

[candid vortex]

What is a data engineer exactly?

There's so much overlap in roles nowadays

I'm always wary of career choices that are at risk of being eaten up by AWS etc though

Like how companies just use AWS to provision their servers instead of managing their own data centres etc

It seems like a role heavy on computer science and low level stuff, just depends on if that's what you're interested in

That's what I think is the ultimate question to ask in my opinion

Do you like low level or high level stuff

[safe tulip]

For everyone who wants free linkedin premium
https://my.visualstudio.com
Login with your microsoft account and claim it for 3 months.

[rare spire]

skem

[umbral valley]

Job offer #3 is STACKED friends

[umbral valley]

Or it seems stacked. How’s this for a benefits package, for those with experience?
They offer long term disability, life insurance, health and dental at no cost.

Additionally they give 15% to a SEP every year. Which is a form of IRA, that I don’t have to match to get.

They also pay my deductible every year into a HSA

[vale ermine]

@umbral valley which job offer would you be referring to?

[umbral valley]

just one i had recieved

[vale ermine]

Oh nice

All the health benefits are awesome! You should ask if that insurance covers emergencies including dental, pregnancy, etc. Also, ask if the dental insurance covers braces @umbral valley

Also, in what intervals do they give raises? And whats the starting income?

[umbral valley]

I have the full benefits package now and it does.

starts $70k, not sure on raises

[vale ermine]

Oh wow. It really does seem stacked. The raises question is pretty important, though. I'd be sure to ask about it.

I also love the savings fund. Really nice.

Gives you a reason to stick with them

[umbral valley]

Yeah. The benefits are actually 👌👌 talking to people. Way better than my brother whose a ME for the army

[gritty ivy]

that's nuts compared to the one you talked about that payed like 20% below average for your area

[umbral valley]

yeah

both ends of the spectrum in one week lol

[shell gulch]

Guys do you think a college degree is needed for a bright future in web development?

[obsidian acorn]

not at all

just the will, and the willingness to put in the work

[shell gulch]

Thanks,that s also my opinion but its always better to ask someone who got this done

[umbral valley]

It's not needed, but if you have the option to go - it makes the job hunt MUCH easier

[obsidian acorn]

@shell gulch don't get me wrong, you do not NEED a degree, but a lot of company will not even look at you without one.

so, it does make it harder, but not impossible.

But once you get your foot in the door, and show that you can and are willing to put in to effort,

[drifting viper]

pretty much ^

[vapid jay]

internships will help equally too if you can get them or small jobs etc

[candid vortex]

@shell gulch i think it depends on the market you are in

Most of the good job postings I see in my area don't seem to even ask about qualifications. They just care about proven experience

[candid vortex]

For everyone here, what do most of you do for work

In office, remote employee, freelance?

Managed service, IT department of company, consultant, etc?

[umbral valley]

I work in software assessment. Which is taking code written by other companies, and making sure their source matches the design document, follows proper patterns, etc. kind of like code auditing

[shell gulch]

Yeah,i understand what you guys are telling me,but my reason why i want to skip college is because in that time i will learn much more without college

[vivid dock]

Why not both

Im in uni while im spending my free time interning at an ai based marketing firm as a fullstack dev

Getting a masters, getting experience, and soon a bit of pocket change cause they like me

[shell gulch]

Yeah but i think that in my zone a college will take way too much time

From 24h/day

[solid tusk]

I wouldn't skip college

[candid vortex]

It's a hotly contested topic

I'm skipping University myself

4 years at school plus debt plus loss of income isn't worth it to me.

Although I feel like I should take work down to part time so I can focus more on self learning

[icy berry]

I work as a full stack python developer.

[vivid dock]

Further education is imo worth it if you can afford it financially and timely

[tidal monolith]

Than I would ask how to exactly invest this money if I were to have it. Like what course should I take at university

[vale heart]

"Computer science education cannot make anybody an expert programmer any more than studying brushes and pigment can make somebody an expert painter."

• Eric S. Raymond

that being said, it certainly can help you become a better programmer and fill in a lot of holes in your knowledge.

also you can meet lots of other people in the same boat, pick the brains of professors and make new friends and all that.

the social aspect is pretty important. not that that's exclusive to university, but it's definitely a good place for it.

if the profs are good theyll set you up with a solid CS foundation that'll let you adapt to new developments. there's only so much you can learn in the course of a 3 year degree and CS is a pretty fast moving field.

[candid vortex]

One could say that meetups provide a lot of networking though

[vapid jay]

what level of leetcode exercises can be encountered in interview for an internship that doesn't require working experience?

[vapid jay]

I’ve never been asked anything about leetcode tbh

I’m surprised so many people experience that

[umbral valley]

I’d almost say that the value in college isn’t really the education but rather the networking ability. It’s HUGE. And plays a big role in getting your job.

It’s also much harder to get your first job without a degree, because they don’t have some baseline level of knowledge they can see you objectively have like a degree would tell them

It’s possible. But it’s a very different ball game without a degree

[sweet citrus]

Besides QA Tester, what are other entry level jobs to start in dev?

[umbral valley]

There are jr level positions in every area.

Embedded, assessment, web, etc. just more rare

[obsidian acorn]

There are a lot of them, there are data engineering starter positions, there are back-end, front-end, data analysis, big data

there are a wide range fo them

[umbral valley]

I would say ML is about the only area where finding a jr position isn't really feasible. they exist, they're just exceedingly rare since most jobs require a masters as is for ML

[dire yew]

Hey can someone explain briefly

what cybersecurity analytics is about

and applying machine learning to detect malware

Like one of the recruiters said there's research and we have to read publications

He said they use Spark and Java, Python and Scala

[humble elm]

i always thought jr just meant you have ❤ years of experience. but if you have a master/phd your automatically not a jr anymore?

*< 3

[toxic vessel]

@dire yew well, simplified.... cyber security firms will have lots and lots of data on existing malware or security breaches or hacking/intrusion attempts. So to try to prevent the next ones before they happen, you need to attempt to analyze all that data very, very heavily in order to find out the commonalities or patterns or whatever, quantify it. The goal is that the next intrusion attempt, you run the suspicious activity through it, and then your software gauges whether or not it is actually legitimate. The more data you have and the better your ML models are, the higher probability that your guesses will be correct

But yeah that whole middle part of analysis... that’s your ML work and it can be very complicated and time consuming

Security firms need it to be good enough and entirely automatic such that shittons of intrusion attempts might come your way daily but they are automatically accurately discovered and dealt with all in its own

[dire yew]

@toxic vessel Oohhhh, I see, that makes sense with what he was saying regarding you're going to have to spend a lot of time in research and digging for solutions.

Also do you think its hard to get a hold of learning all this?

Like I've done python before and Java

but just not in this aspect

[toxic vessel]

With no experience in it? Yes

Also harder if you aren’t particularly math gifted (like myself)

But still doable for sure and the tools get better and better every day

[dire yew]

how deep in math does it go?

[toxic vessel]

And tons of books and tutorials and such

[dire yew]

because I do calculus and linear algebra

in first year uni

Ohh ok, that sounds good

[toxic vessel]

Haha okay then you’re set

That and probably theory and stats are the most useful

The tools will do most of it for you but you at least need to have an understanding of some of it

[dire yew]

Ooh ok, and also where do you recommend me starting from?

[toxic vessel]

Bear in mind you’re already beyond in math where I ever was by a healthy margin and I was able to get a grasp

[dire yew]

That sounds reassuring! like what exactly should i start with

[toxic vessel]

Pytorch is now a common tool for this sort of thing, and happens to have fantastic tutorials courtesy of a friend of a friend

https://github.com/spro/practical-pytorch

[dire yew]

because I'm not so knowledgable as of now in this field

ohh I think I seen that before

Ok, Ill look into that

Thanks for all the help!

[toxic vessel]

Yeah the thing is, there’s tons of different tools and methodologies and such

You’ll probably want to just pick a couple and stick with them while you figure it all out

For your own sanity

[dire yew]

Loool, I see

[toxic vessel]

That’s a great place to start though

[dire yew]

The recruiter did mention spark

they use in their work

so I might check that out too then

[toxic vessel]

The concepts are transferable but the nuances you’ll not pick up if you’re learning 30 tools

[dire yew]

That is true

[toxic vessel]

And this is some heavy-duty work on many levels. Data size, speed at which you can run queries on that data, cpu and gpu resources for computation

So a full ML system tends to be a mix of several tools that each specialize in some aspect of that

Spark is used for things like, running your ML tasks on 500 machines at once

[dire yew]

Ooof, yea it'll be hard to get well versed into, but the coop is in the summer, so if he gives me time to learn all this, it might be good then

BRUHH

do the companies

usually provide macxhines

to do this?

or they expect it from your own laptop or so

[toxic vessel]

I mean you’ll be able to run smaller tests on your own hardware but for big tasks in production you have clusters of aws instances or whatever

[dire yew]

ohh ok

[toxic vessel]

But you can certainly run it yourself on small samples and such

Just of course as the complexity of the data and analysis goes up, slower to do on your machine

[dire yew]

Also does the work get repetitive?

[toxic vessel]

Oh, I’d also look at the pydata stuff. Dask, blaze, pandas, etc. they’re all working together for these purposes but all in python

I can’t really say because it’s one of 27474 things I have a hand in

[dire yew]

ohh like the data science libraries

Jheeez

[toxic vessel]

It can take a while to get it all working especially if you’re learning

[dire yew]

have you done computer vision stuff in jobs?

yea, theres probably a steep learning curve

[toxic vessel]

But the idea is eventually you just tweak it

For some use cases it’s a nonstop circus of improving it

But for others it’s really not

Yeah I’ve used CV with ML for things like trying to understand what is happening in uploaded videos and such

To preemptively evaluate if it’s a video of someone’s dick before it goes live, or to attempt to quantify and recommend content, etc

Also ML is massively used to try to encode videos better without them looking perpetually crappier

(I mostly work in video/film-related arenas)

But yeah I don’t personally spend all my days training ML or anything

[dire yew]

Looool

ohh ok

[toxic vessel]

Some wizards; that’s jut what they are good at and do

[dire yew]

Thank you so much once again for all the help!

[toxic vessel]

No worries, good luck

[dire yew]

@toxic vessel Hey also I wanted to know what the job name of that position would be called?

[dire yew]

@toxic vessel and that field would be under data science right

[vapid jay]

hi

is lisp worth learning?

[indigo sleet]

What lisp did you have in mind?

It's not a very common development language, but it's not a bad way to learn functional programming

[vapid jay]

I did functional programming when I was in engineering..

real engineering I mean..

[indigo sleet]

The only lisp I've ever seen in a professional setting was Clojure

and that was only one place

You might be better served by something like Erlang if you like functional

[solid tusk]

Or scala

[indigo sleet]

Erlang makes you quite employable right now

[weary gazelle]

if only elixir did

[radiant locust]

Erlang, cool

[sweet citrus]

does anyone here have experience in going to tech mixers?

for networking

[obsidian acorn]

yes, I do, do you have one coming up?

[vapid jay]

scala?

apparently Erlang is not in use in most tech companies..

I checked with thtme

them*

[solid tusk]

https://www.scala-lang.org/

Seems like a fast track to software jobs atm is learning/knowing JS and React/Vue 😄

And Node for backend

[obsidian acorn]

and python

[solid tusk]

Tbh, python is not in high demand, at least in Finland

It's mostly for ML stuff

Everything else is node

[vapid jay]

That's a very narrow view

and highly unaccurate

[sleek pike]

hello

[sinful tundra]

hello

I'm in the US. Once I get a good grasp of Python can build some noob apps, where should I target my education at? Which particular niche for the market?

not looking to go full time with a big company, just high paying free lance jobs from home

or with a team/startup w.e

[umbral valley]

Full stack is the most applicable/marketable to free lancing with python I’d say.

Or office automation

[sinful tundra]

alright thanks

[vapid jay]

i like python

[wanton holly]

don't we all

[solid tusk]

@vapid jay That's how it is in Finland

[supple root]

@solid tusk how is it in Finland im thinking about getting my education there

[solid tusk]

I just mentioned that there's not many python jobs in here unless you're working with ML. JS is much higher in demand.

If you were asking generally, it's a pretty good place to be. Food can be a bit expensive, might be hard to connect with local people if you don't drink

But the level of education is quite good

Most of the time at least

[rough sequoia]

My python experience consists of only on my own time ... I have 4+ years of working in an engineering role using SQL, XML, JSON, CAD ... but now i'd like to make the switch to a job that is python heavy ... will i get serious opportunities if i apply for python intensive jobs?

i have a functioning webapp running on pythonanywher

pythonanywhere*

[ionic hatch]

Is there much of a role around business analysis / technical writing & documentation, at places where one might expect to see Python in use for data mining, data science etc.?

(Apologies for asking such a vague question. I guess that my point is 'role around using Python here & there', versus 'roles expecting you to be a developer.' I expect to be job-hunting ... soon, but am still very much a Python beginner.)

[sinful tundra]

Yes

Python specializes in AI and Machine Learning

most of your success with python will be developing apps that automate things

not a developer yet, but thats from my research

[ionic hatch]

okay, i see. i'm not 100% that i understood, but it sounds like a. that's absolutely where most of the subject-matter focus in Python is these days, and b. my best shot at working in such a place is being a developer, but i could try looking for technical writing jobs & similar. thanks for the response

i have several years of business-analysis experience & am trying to think of what jobs i could look up and realistically land in 2-3 months (it might be more accurate just to say that i don't know where to begin.)

[umbral valley]

@ionic hatch you could look into assessment.

It’s what I work in. Essentially you examine source code vs the design document and other analysis like code quality, design patterns, etc. kind of like auditing. It’s a lot of automation style tasks

[ionic hatch]

that sounds like it'd be excellent for me, in fact. i do a ton of that these days (for legacy code) but way more heuristically than i'd like. not much focus on doing it all under any kind of unified framework

thanks!

[umbral valley]

No problem. I’m not sure where you’re located or anything, but in the US it’s a pretty common position for the government as long as you can obtain a security clearance.

[hazy wing]

Is anyone doing freelance work?
I'm studying data science and am fluent enough with python that I think I can do some freelance jobs while continueing my study.
Any tips on where to start or how?

[umbral valley]

Upwork is what I use from time to time. Or reddit

[hallow root]

neat

[boreal current]

@umbral valley @lost geode I spoke to you both a few weeks ago about applying for a part time job to teach kids Python/HTML/C++ if you remember... well to update you both, i got the job! And it'll be as the main instructor not the assistant.

[lost geode]

Congratulations @boreal current That's great!

[boreal current]

Thank you! It's not much, but it's a start.

[umbral valley]

Neato

[hazy wing]

@umbral valley how do you use reddit for finding free lance work? How does that work?

[umbral valley]

Just random odd jobs get posted for ForHire every now and then

[hazy wing]

/r/forhire?

[umbral valley]

Not super reliable, but does happen. Generally a couple a week are posted, 1-2 are worth responding to

[hazy wing]

Thanks didn't know that existed

[umbral valley]

Only real problem with it is most people pay terribly because if they wanted it done correctly and not cheaply they’d use other sources.

[winged storm]

Is django a good framework to learn career wise?

[umbral valley]

Yeah. It’s okay as is flask. Both are used

[tawny quartz]

Yes, it is.

That being said, the framework isn't the core of your skillset, your knowledge of web technologies, programming, and Python are.

[winged storm]

what are some examples of web technologies?

like MVC concept?

[vapid jay]

So i should be graduating with my bs in cs in may and i live in ca. I have no idea on what i want to do. Is there a good way to narrow down my choices?

[umbral valley]

Take whatever job you get offered. Use that time of building experience to decide imo

[rare sand]

@boreal current congrats on your teaching gig!

[umbral valley]

Is it normal for companies to ask you to RE things they don’t own in interviews?

Applied to a RE job just while shopping around and the test is to explain how a specific algorithm works inside the instagram app.

[karmic bramble]

I'd more think of this as "Here's a problem services like instagram face in their business, what possible solutions for this problem can you think of?"

not really reverse engineering, just thinking of possible attempts to solve a real-world problem in the industry, to test your knowledge in that field and your creativity

[umbral valley]

Well no. It’s specifically take the instagram, tell us how this algorithm they use to mutate the API key works

Is just kinda weird instead of using some homegrown IPA

[karmic bramble]

as in, open a browser and figure this out, we want a working solution in an hour?

[umbral valley]

Yeah. Except it’s decompiling the iOS app and no time limit

[karmic bramble]

oh, okay? that is indeed really weird

I think I would decline that.

[umbral valley]

Right. It just kind of struck me as an odd pre employment test

[karmic bramble]

Either they're up to no good, or it is a test whether you would actually do that and break their policies, and you're actually supposed to decline.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[umbral valley]

Well I mean there are companies whose whole business model is REing apps for security research that is all above ground and good.

Just seems like a weird way to do an interview question

[limber rampart]

That is super weird wtf

[short charm]

What do you do at python?

[cinder belfry]

regardless of whether their purpose of wanting it done is nefarious or not, a coding question with no time limit is a red flag for a completely different reason: they're making you do a non-trivial [if it were trivial there'd be a time limit] amount of work for them for free.

IMO anyway

[umbral valley]

Yeah that’s true too

[long island]

hi everyone, i am a python/django developer. I want to start a side gig besides my full time job, but i realized that there is no creativity left inside me. I try so hard to find anything but i can not come up with idea, or even i don't like my own ideas. Is there any suggestion of you for me to overcome this unproductive situation?

[solid verge]

@long island The only thing I can think of is something with automation. Maybe web testing like python selenium. The amount of things you can create with web automation is huge. You can make things that lets the user enter a president, and it gives back tons of info about that president. But I mean that you could change up the idea. That’s all I thought of.

[celest crest]

is there a place you guys like to look for python internships?

[umbral valley]

Just normal job boards. There isn’t really a python only job board

[neon needle]

prob a decent idea to make one

or programming in general

[umbral valley]

There are. Stack overflow has a job board for example

[marsh karma]

Is there some website like justjoin.it but for other countries?

justjoin.it looks so good

[sterile stump]

here?

[void stump]

yeah

[sterile stump]

so yea

let me explain

rn im in highschool and depends if i do well on final exams

i join a uni of my choice

theres hardware and software unis here

i want to join a software one altho in my country hardware dudes fine jobs easier

[void stump]

oh

usually software is easier to find a job

[sterile stump]

yup i live in greece so pll are old and udmb

[void stump]

hmm, you can work in other EU countries right?

[sterile stump]

i dont have enough money to transfer

i can work online but not move unless the company takes me

[void stump]

right

during uni you'll have a lot of time to build a portfolio

usually employers will be impressed even if you've done small projects doesn't have to be anything grand

when you acquire enough programming skills create a github account and start working on small projects

maybe contribute to open source

etc.

[sterile stump]

yup

i can do that

[void stump]

there are lots of software jobs and people are always looking

[sterile stump]

1 thing that worry me a lot

is maths

[void stump]

if you can get a job in another EU country after saving up some money that can be good too

as for math, there are many online resources

build up your foundations

[marsh karma]

For example, I have started my mini project in Django so i can apply to job with something in CV.
I hope it will be enough, if not, I will do next project 😄

[sterile stump]

well im a god at maths but not thsi maths

[void stump]

you can absolutely get very good at math

[sterile stump]

good* not god

[void stump]

@marsh karma many people have nothing beyond the degree

[sterile stump]

here in greece our maths are 10 steps ahead so thats not my problem its other things

[void stump]

so really anything is going to impress recruiters

just do something

[sterile stump]

do you guys know the TE highschools?

idk how you call them

[void stump]

TE?

not really

[sterile stump]

technical education

im in that highschool

so after i finish it i get a software degree 4 and a highschool passport how you call it

and if i finish uni another software degree 2 or 1 i think?

[void stump]

highschool diploma

[sterile stump]

diploma rightttt

funny diploma is a greek word

[void stump]

haha

[sterile stump]

so yea i get all that stuff

[void stump]

so you're not worried about math then?

[sterile stump]

i mean it doesnt feel like programming

[marsh karma]

I am not even in programming studies and haven't finished first year of study. But because I didn't succeed in getting on programming study, but on ICT. I told myself you had to do sth connected with programming so I started learning Django in my free time since October.

[void stump]

that's great!

yep make sure you exploit all the free resources available

[marsh karma]

And when I finish Django project, I am going to apply for a internship or junior Dev

[void stump]

there has never been a better time to learn anything

[sterile stump]

most of my programms are sums divines and its a bumemr sometimes cause i know how to program but dont know how to calculate the right things

[void stump]

hopefully both of you already know:
coursera.org
edx.org

[sterile stump]

dont know that

[void stump]

visit both of those websites when you have time

[sterile stump]

will do

[marsh karma]

I am pissed on my studies because next years won't teach me programming but useless things just for degree. But maybe it will be good to learn ICT things too

[sterile stump]

the only platform is stackoverflow

i know*

[void stump]

@marsh karma luckily programming is one of the few fields where a degree doesn't matter much

[sterile stump]

but it requires lowkey experts

[void stump]

you can learn all about programming and CS using free online high quality resources

what do you mean?

[sterile stump]

most jobs require a lot of stuff

[void stump]

@marsh karma are you in AU/NZ?

[sterile stump]

and not much of a python itself

[void stump]

I mean but it requires lowkey experts

what do you mean?

[sterile stump]

it requires pros

most of the job

[void stump]

the jobs on SO?

[sterile stump]

yup

[void stump]

oh

if you have 5 years to go

don't worry about that

[sterile stump]

the thing is

in uni

[marsh karma]

au/nz?

[sterile stump]

they might stop python

[void stump]

Australia/New Zealand

[sterile stump]

unis are known in my country for java and stuff

[void stump]

it doesn't matter

[marsh karma]

nope, Poland. That's why I sent a link to justjoin.it

[void stump]

you can learn python from:
edx.org
coursera.org
udacity.com

[marsh karma]

There is nice discount for Python on udemy

[void stump]

the point isn't to learn python

the point is to learn programming

[sterile stump]

ye

the way of thinking

maths helped me a lot with this

[void stump]

university isn't going to teach you every language that's relevant

[marsh karma]

https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/the-complete-python-3-course-beginner-to-advanced-free-udemy-3166360?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=position_3_button&utm_campaign=19-01-2019&fbclid=IwAR1GjE9_XtJLMo_fiAkp5ZmNklAiS_St4xY4U9J4Fb4yNrL9tvcyAca447M

[void stump]

you learn the languages yourself

university teaches you programming fundamentals

[sterile stump]

i know how to use the basic stuff of python

[void stump]

good programming practices, etc.

algorithms, data structures

[sterile stump]

but for example i cant create a game with python

i can make a program that solves a second degree equation

[marsh karma]

Game with Python?

[void stump]

it takes time

learning libraries is not easy

[sterile stump]

you know what a second degree equation is?

the programming of it is the easiest thing but the maths is what you must know

[void stump]

i'm gonna guess you aren't talking about a second degree ordinary differential equation

so a quadratic

[sterile stump]

idk what differental is

[void stump]

yeah nevermind

[sterile stump]

you know the x^2+x+2=0

thats the type

[void stump]

yes it's called a quadratic equation

[sterile stump]

yup that thing

its easy to make it on python but it requires maths like 80% of my programs

not hard maths but still maths

[void stump]

yeah

[gritty ivy]

games are infinitely harder to make than a quadratic equation algorithm, also be careful about channel topic, move to an ot if you need

[sterile stump]

i agree but thats what im saying

if in the future programming is like this i might never find a job

like whats a usual program someone would ask from a programmer

[gritty ivy]

from how I understand it a very large majority of programmers work in teams

not just assigning 1 program to 1 person, another to someone else

[umbral valley]

Programming in the real world is being divided up into a team and then you get assigned X stories for the week to work on

[marsh karma]

So it would be like. You do backend on this website page, you take care of backend on this website page? Sth like that?

[umbral valley]

It’s going to depend a lot on the organization for some of it but it’ll be like individual features you’re working on generally, So like implementing what happens when this specific button is clicked. Then once it’s implemented and tested, you’ll move on to the next thing

[marsh karma]

ahh. and on the start of the day is a brief meeting who can and is willing to do what?

[umbral valley]

Not willing normally, just what you’ve been assigned, how it’s going, what you’re stuck on. Can research the Agile system if you want - it’s the most popular paradigm by a mile

[shrewd sable]

Can I put freelancing work on my resume or is that looked down upon?

[tardy ivy]

Depends on the nature of the projects you've worked on.

[vivid dock]

How valuable are PRs vs own projects as a kind of portfolio

[umbral valley]

Depends on the quality of work imo. Can’t really compare them flatly

[vapid jay]

So how did you guys get your first tech job?

I'm going to go in with zero experience

[nova quail]

If you're a student, apply for internships

[vapid jay]

none near me

i did apply to the only one near me

got rejected

i live in ca though

[umbral valley]

Do you have a degree or still a student?

[north narwhal]

So I applied for an ML internship a while ago with a large company, and received a response from a recruiter about a week ago saying they found my profile interesting and that they'd like me to submit a short, one page research proposal for an ML project in one of the categories the company does research in. They're a VERY BIG company, so I doubt this is them trying to mooch student's work. Additionally, I looked back on the offer and realized that it's meant for master's-level students, which I am not (I'm a sophomore). I recently sat down with a professor at my university to help with brainstorming and writing a proposal, but, in the meeting and since, I've realized I'm way out of my league with what they're asking me to do. I have very little ML experience, and I'm quite frankly not comfortable writing a proposal, bullshitted or not. I told the professor I'd send him a draft Monday morning for review before submitting Monday night, but I don't think that's going to happen. I'm feeling really ashamed of myself for not following through. for letting myself and my professor down. I was briefly motivated to power through and write, but even with this motivation I'm realizing it's too daunting of a task. Am I crazy for letting this slide? I'm sure my professor will understand when I tell him that I'm WAY too far out of my depths in this, but what do I tell the recruiter? Sorry for the long message, I'm just flustered right now.

[vapid jay]

Student

Graduating in May

[umbral valley]

@north narwhal send it anyways, even if you are out of your league. you can only get into your league by practicing

@vapid jay network, network, network. Go to meetups, talk to professors, see if they have research they need help with. I got my first job just by applying to everything but it turns out my professor (and old boss when I was in student) was a friend of one of the people interviewing me. you never know when you'll meet someone who has some obscure connection or can open it up. My senior project professor used to also send emails out to students who were interested in recieving them

[vapid jay]

Well i plan on going to the bay or socal

And my professors arent doing any research

[north narwhal]

That was my approach at first. I've set a personal goal of getting more involved in research (and eventually starting a paper) this semester, but they're asking me to write a proposal on topics I have no business talking about. Hell, I have no business talking about ML. I really don't have any experience or knowledge in it aside from picking up on hot topics in the field. The professor asked if I knew what Bayesian Models were and I was just like "uhhhh" and stalled without answering. I'm pretty sure he's picked up on my being out of my league too, he said something along the lines of "it's always tough when you're writing about something you know nothing about", not as a jog at me, but in agreement of what I had expressed.

[vapid jay]

Just teaching

[umbral valley]

Use it to learn - even if you don't get a call back you'll gain some knowledge in the field

[north narwhal]

Also @vapid jay , cold contact as many startups and companies as you can find with a cover letter, resume, and expressed interest in whatever the company is doing. That's how I ended up finding my first internship.

[umbral valley]

Yeah your first job is jsut a numbers game

you could also consider moving, too if you're not dead set in socal - Huntsville (where I am) is constantly hiring as is san antonio and a few other cities without the egregious cost of living

[vapid jay]

Yes that's what i plan on

Texas is too hot

Is huntsville in Alabama?

I wanna stay in cali for a bit

[umbral valley]

Yeah

[north narwhal]

If you don't mind me asking, what part of CA? There's a lot happening, all over the state.

[umbral valley]

cost of living is so low too its a great entry level place honestly

[vapid jay]

Turlock for school

House in Stockton

[umbral valley]

a $50k income in huntsville is about a 170k salary in SF, SA is about the same

[vapid jay]

Thing is i don't know anyone in Alabama and im going in with zero experience

[umbral valley]

Yeah that's fair - was just a suggestion

cuz its full of gov't contractors that are jsut constantly hiring new grads

[vapid jay]

Did you already live in Huntsville

[umbral valley]

Kinda

I was down here for school but didn't grow up in the area

[vapid jay]

I would have to rent a car

[umbral valley]

Yeah it's not ideal - was just throwing it and SA out as possibilities since they're a lot less hostile to new grads cost of living wise

since even on my lowest offer you could reasonably afford to live alone

[vapid jay]

I heard it's super hot

[umbral valley]

not too bad

can get to like 105 or so on the hot days of the summer but it's pretty reasonable most of the time, Tx the same way

[red shadow]

do you need some sort of prior job experience (example: working as a cashier or a waiter) before you should look at getting a job as a programmer / developper?

[umbral valley]

not really

testing positions are generally easier to come across but I get recruited hitting me up with my resume public about 1/week now

[vapid jay]

2.2% asian in Huntsville AL

I can't go there

[left gull]

Good morning folks! Today marks a milestone in my pursuit to change my career towards Data science/machine learning. I want to open a dialogue with any of you, with emphasis on what it's like to work in this field from your perspective. This would be over direct messages to keep it 1 on 1. Please let me know if you're interested and I will come armed with questions and anecdotes. :)

[shell fern]

This is you asking people questions? or people asking you questions? I would love to pick your brain about your process to becoming apart of datascience/ML.

[left gull]

This can easily be a mutual picking of brains. I am more than happy to share what I can in return.

[shell fern]

I'm a sophmore in college. I would love to ask you a bunch 😃

[left gull]

Well then let's move this to DM's and let questions fly!

[mild zenith]

I mean ideally we'd keep this discussion in here, so that everyone can benefit from it

[left gull]

I didn't want to flood this chat with what is likely going to be a fairly lengthy conversation. Plus, the goal is for one-on-one engagement which is difficult to maintain in a shared group.

That being said, I will happily share the conversations if the above flooding is not an issue.

[mellow agate]

The purpose of the channel is for discussions on careers. If it's a discussion, no matter the length, it isn't considered "flooding" anything.

If the primary purpose is for one-to-one chats, it's no longer really an open discussion, but more an appeal for dms which is not really the point of the server or this channel.

[left gull]

I was just trying to be considerate, as most channels I am on don't like 2 people dominating a chat.

[shell fern]

It would be easy to reference the conversation too if it is in DM. If someone said something that was interesting or you wanted to speak to them about it again later. DM makes that much more manageable. I've often taken convo that could have been held in a server to DM and this has helped both of us remember the context of a previous conversation.

[mellow agate]

it doesn't have to be two people dominating anything. an open discussion is open to anyone to discuss. if there's an ongoing conversation, people aren't likely going to be upset, but instead may be interested enough to join in. If this doesn't feel like something you want, then this really isn't the place to do it either.

If you want to reference a convo for later, you can simply copy the last message url into the other person's notes field

the primary purpose though is openness

[shell fern]

Well IDK I think the OP intent was to keep the forum clean and can you imagine if 5 of us started asking questions to the OP at the same time in the same chat. It would be like having indiviaual conversations with 5people at the same table. where you could spread yourself out between 5 tables and speak to each accordinly.

[indigo sleet]

I feel like this whole discussion is deraIling the channel more than the actual discussion would

:P

[left gull]

I agree.

I just wanted to learn from some folks with experience in the field, and instead I'm being attacked for wanting to be considerate.

[indigo sleet]

Mate, there's a difference between being attacked and being told what the server policy is

[mellow agate]

I don't believe I've attacked you. I'm encouraging you to simply not appeal for dms as that's not the point of this server.

[left gull]

It felt like one, and I will accept that I read too far into it.

[mellow agate]

That's good, as it's definitely not the intention. We'd rather be open about policies and are happy to discuss them in #community-meta anytime

[gusty stump]

I've been invited to a video interview for a Data Science Degree Apprenticeship. No previous knowledge required other than knowing the basics of computer science. Any ideas of what kind of questions I should be expecting as it'll be my first interview ever

[wide folio]

Sorting and manipulating with data structures @gusty stump

[boreal vault]

what are bottom level jobs with python?

also I can only work from home as I live in remote area

[umbral valley]

@boreal vault every field is going to have entry level positions. Web, automation, testing, whatever.

@gusty stump since it’s an apprenticeship with no huge precious knowledge the questions will likely focus on seeing if you’re a good fit, rather than your knowledge on the topics as they’re expecting to train you because it’s an apprenticeship

[boreal vault]

what field is easiest to start?

[wanton holly]

you should probably focus on fields you actually enjoy rather than fields that are easiest to start. although really, a field you enjoy will probably be the easiest to start because you'll have more motivation to get into it, i'd argue.

[umbral valley]

Entry level everything comes with the expectation of needing to teach you a bunch so they all had roughly the same barrier of entry

Assessment / testing probably is the lowest though but not my much

[boreal vault]

and what field has high demand now?

[umbral valley]

Web probably

[celest lichen]

Do degrees matter?

[solid tusk]

A degree definitely helps but if you have a nice github/portfolio showcasing your capabilities then a degree is not that important

[indigo sleet]

Some jobs do require them, but otherwise it's okay to have a portfolio

[hazy wing]

On the otherhand... how important is it to have a portfolio if you already have a degree?

[craggy wave]

It can be important, as your potential employer is probably going to be interested in the actual code you've produced.

From another perspective, if they've got a couple of candidates with a degree and some of them have a nice GitHub portfolio with good code on it, who do you think will look good to the employer?

[mild zenith]

I'd personally want to see the one with more experience or at least more code under his belt

[marsh karma]

What sizes of projects are worth to look into?

Or is it about a quality of code. Code not equal to the code

[mild zenith]

Usually it's quality over quantity.

[craggy wave]

Probably any. There's nothing wrong with starting somewhere and showing progress.

Pin your most recent repositories/projects, make sure everything has quality code in it

[mild zenith]

Even if you've just been contributing to open source projects and cleaning up their code or making improvements, that'll show very well on you as well

[craggy wave]

Don't overlook the "detail" of code style, as it's important whenever you collaborate, so an employer probably wants to see you know that

[marsh karma]

I applied for internship yesterday and waiting for response. I am curious if the project on which I have been working for Oct/Nov is worth to show

I am beginner but I put in cv things like: I try to write good documentations, I put issues in my git repository so they know that I know about some bugs and put app on Heroku

[mild zenith]

You want to sound more definitive in your cv. Instead of "I try to write...", just say "I write". Confidence in yourself speaks mountains to a potential employer

Let me rephrase that

Confidence without it being over-confidence, if that makes sense

Only state what you can back up

But take pride in the skills you do have

[marsh karma]

Ahh, yea. But because of it that it is my first app with doc I preferred writing "try"

[mild zenith]

That just means you need to practice more, but "try" gives off an air of... insecurity about your own skills.

Little wording like that can make a difference

[marsh karma]

Ah, I will correct in next sending of cv

[craggy wave]

It's for an internship, right? Don't worry, learning how to apply for jobs and do a job interview is important, too.

[mild zenith]

It's all part of the process

For an internship, the key thing is showing that you're eager to do the work and willing to learn

[marsh karma]

Ah, my older brother who is like 7 yo older wat telling me to add testing to key skills. "I will teach you, it is easy and key thing in cv". So I have got like 3 weeks for learning pytests >.<

[mild zenith]

Well, you're in the right place if you need help.

Just... don't ask me about them because I have NO bloody clue how they work

[marsh karma]

It is #unit-testing ?

[mild zenith]

Yeppers

The folks in there will help you

[marsh karma]

k, will ask there about some tutorials when I have got a time

[mild zenith]

However discussions in there can take a little while. The topical channels tend to have less foot traffic in general

But the people in them are knowledgeable

You're in good hands

[marsh karma]

Ok, thanks

[vapid jay]

hi guys

[wide folio]

hello

[boreal vault]

can someone show me how entry level portfolio looks like?

[vapid jay]

Show us

Since I probably won't be able to get the job I want to. Should I apply to any CS entry level job?

[dire yew]

What's the difference between product manager and project manager?

[solid tusk]

@boreal vault it really depends on what type of jobs you are going for

@dire yew Project manager works in a certain product. Let's say a company wants to integrate some new systems, the project manager would be the person responsible for the success

Keeps track of budget, makes sure people stay on time etc.

Product manager is responsible for the product catalogue of the company. At least I would imagine so.

[dire yew]

@solid tusk ohh ok, makes sense

So is there a reason why Google mostly hired product managers and Microsoft project managers?

[solid tusk]

@dire yew Could be that Google works with agile methods where the project manager title is generally not used

And Microsoft does a lot of consulting so project managers are probably needed there

I'm just guessing though

[dire yew]

Ohhh I see

[boreal vault]

@solid tusk anything entrance level please

[solid tusk]

@boreal vault Well, if you're going for webdev your portfolio should probably have some flask/django apps that use databases, authentication etc.

Basically just stuff that shows you have basic understanding of the stuff used in the field

Try to make stuff visual and easy to understand, because your stuff will go through HR first and the people might not be very technical there

[vapid jay]

?remind help 2

[shy pollen]

how many lines do yall write in a working day (on avg) in your field of programming?

[lean stirrup]

100-200 but this is java at the moment, I also focus a lot more on helping with design and working with existing interfaces, not writing everything from scratch

[dapper yoke]

Has anybody had success with websites like Vettery / Hired? I got approved for a Vettery showcase (I have zero experience in the field but a decent github) and am looking for entry level positions

[candid vortex]

Just got paid for my first freelancing invoice in quite a few years

Any part time freelancers here? Or full time even?

I'm trying to decide if I should try to join a start up or become a freelancer

[vapid jay]

hey, i do some gigs on fiver

only like 2 so far

do not do a startup gig

they will drain you and leave you out to dry..

I know this one guy who took a year off and learned javascript.. now he works at Google..

just my 2$

hmm I dont think so.. the guy was singaporean..

I think they have lots of government support to learn stuff.. and its paid for by government

[candid vortex]

Ive been thinking of taking 6 months/ a year off to self study

We have a few years of living expenses saved up. I'm just not getting enough mental energy left after my unrelated full time job to really study

The most productive I ever was when I took a sickie and studied for 6 hours straight.

I've got a reasonable handle on mid level python, I'm just focusing more on serverless frameworks now instead of deep diving into higher skilled python. Plus I want to learn javascript next as well.

[keen anvil]

How can you test your python skills?

[solemn valley]

By thinking of stuff and then making that stuff in python.

[vapid jay]

@keen anvil create a gui interface using visual basic and see if you can track an ip address..................................................................

[keen anvil]

@vapid jay Thanks for the idea

[vapid jay]

@keen anvil forgot the not srs tag, it was from a tv show

[copper breach]

Hello, learning python at the moment as I've lots of different business ideas that typically involve data manipulation and presenting that through some form of website for use. I'm a few weeks into treehouse teaching courses, alongside various youtube videos to supplement that knowledge, and tomorrow start an evening course in my local university to have some face-to-face element as well.

The problem I currently have is not seeing how it all fits together. I can create files that complete actions... but I'm struggling to see how close/far I am from being able to build a website/program/etc. I'm guessing there's going to be an inflection point where I get over that and it starts to make sense.... right? Is this a common problem for people starting out? Any suggestions on good topics for helping see the bigger picture? Videos on structuring different scripts to create a program?

[rare sand]

the missing piece is probably the right framework.

for a desktop app you might dress your logics in some sort of GUI, like PyQT via pyside2 or tkinter. for a website you may use something like Flask or Django.

for a game you might need pygame or kivvy. they bridge that gap and turn your scripts into a fully fledged app or webapp.

these frameworks will need to be learned separately from python itself.

for web, Flask is a good soft start.

[copper breach]

Ah ok, so typically I want to do some form of webscrapping (beautifulsoup on my list to use), manipulate that into a database somewhere (???) and then present that into a website for presentation (flask or django by the sound of it)

[rare sand]

Corey Schafer has a great tutorial series on YouTube for it.

[copper breach]

Yeh corey shafer videos are awesome

[rare sand]

yep

yeah what you said sounds more or less on point.

so try to wrap your head around those topics and you will probably see the bigger picture.

[copper breach]

ok, so now that I'm starting to get into the python rhythym, I need to get into beautifulsoup... then some webdev stuff...

with the database side, will that be covered in those or will I need to look at that seperate?

[rare sand]

as for a database to look at, something simple like sqllite might be enough.. if you need more, postgres is an industry standard.

depends on scope and scale.

[copper breach]

ok cool. So beautifulsoup.....sqlite/postgres.... django/flask.... and I can host all this on digitalocean droplet or something when I get there.

[rare sand]

yes.

[copper breach]

Thanks, sounds like I've got my homework for the next few weeks/months laid out....

[rare sand]

long road ahead still. but that sounds like a sensible path.

[copper breach]

For sure. That's helpful though, appreciate the time you've taken

[granite pasture]

quick question, do we tag helpers or do we just wait for someone to respond to the query?

[rare sand]

please don't tag them.

also this is a weird channel for that question. #community-meta would've been a good choice.

[granite pasture]

Right, my bad.

[rare sand]

and @copper breach prooobably should've posted his in #python-discussion.. but it's fine.

[copper breach]

I was unsure sorry @rare sand , as this is essentially a career choice thing and #python-discussion seems alot more focussed on the actual developments of Python.

It's cool though, you haven't banned me so I'll survive! ha ha 🙃

[rare sand]

we're not monsters

:p

python discussion is fine for those kinds of questions though, for future reference

[copper breach]

ok cool, good to know

[dapper yoke]

Bumping this question - has anybody used sites like Vettery / hired to find a job? I’m looking for entry level - self taught over the past six months but have a bachelors degree in architecture. Got approved for a Vettery showcase / profile - any idea what my chances of finding a position throughout them are?

[dire yew]

Does anyone know approximately how much an entry level co-op earns per hour in one of the big companies and a startup?

[copper breach]

Where in the world are you talking about @dire yew

[dire yew]

@copper breach LMAOO, like what's a usual salary per hour, an entry level intern gets at one of the big companies like Google/Microsoft etc and at a startup. I just wanted to know how much of a gap they have in pay

[copper breach]

@dire yew well if you are talking anywhere then, they are quite different. In Sofia startups probably somewhere around 2000-2500lv , while the corporates are harder to get into and you can get close to 3500lv. All per month obviously

But of course, depends on the skillset and which employer

[sweet citrus]

Question. I got an email from a recruiter last Thursday asking about my availability. I responded promptly. Still haven't heard back from them. What should I do?

[analog turtle]

@sweet citrus send a polite follow up

[sweet citrus]

Just did

Fingers crossed

[analog turtle]

🎲 tbh

[umbral valley]

@dire yew you’re going to get VASTLY different answers if you compare a startup in Cali vs one in another city

Microsoft pays an average of like $7,100/mo for interns. Facebook like $8K, but then I have friends on the other side of the country near Philly that pay like $15-20/hr. My job in Huntsville (entry level, not intern) pays $35/hr to give some perspective

Startups is hard to quantify though because there’s such a gap in what a startup actually is, but they’re normally competitive-ish

[dire yew]

ohh ok, I see @copper breach

@umbral valley yea I kinda seen that coming

Like the vast difference based on cities part

[umbral valley]

Also like do you consider equity as compensation for start ups, etc

[dire yew]

Not really, since I'm a first year, I'm not really paying much attention to that rn

But could you briefly explain

What that really is

And like do you get the money right away?

[umbral valley]

That was meant as a like general statement. But it’s like, a portion of ownership in the company. Kinda like stocks

Normally it’s a reward for staying with the company and uncommon for interns but I imagine some companies offer it to sound enticing

[dire yew]

@umbral valley ohh I see

So do they get to keep the equity after they leave the company?

Or they have to redeem it before they leave

[umbral valley]

It’s yours

But honestly finding an internship in Silicon Valley sounds like hell due to cost of living. Not sure I’d even try to find a job there unless I was already living in the area

[dire yew]

Do most companies accommodate for the cost of living and relocation or it's only the big companies?

Because I live in Toronto

So I have to also get sponsored for a visa if I'm interning in the US

[vapid jay]

Hmm

I live in California.

I should be graduating in May. Any advice on where to go?

I haven't done any research yet but my plan is to go to the bay

[vapid jay]

isn't that like..super pricey

Depends

You know the bay area is pretty big

[umbral valley]

@dire yew not for internships, other positions maybe. Even if it’s not offered it can be negotiated

[solid tusk]

General question: What's the pay for interships in your area?

In Finland for a software job you can expect about 2500e/month

So.. 2870 USD

[fluid topaz]

that job is an internship?

[rare sand]

@solid tusk is that before or after tax?

[solid tusk]

Before

[rare sand]

in Norway, before tax, maybe around 3200 USD.

but you'll easily tax between 25% and 30%

[fluid topaz]

why is that 4 times both of my parents' pay 🤔

[rare sand]

because living costs.

[pulsar drum]

Pretty close to Finland here I'd say. It's like $2400 USD for a full time IIRC

Which is pretty shit considering the living costs here

but hey it's an internship

[rare sand]

yeah. you can almost double that after you get an actual job, at least in Oslo.

but, significantly, you'll tax far more too. in Norway high paying jobs tend to tax so much more that the differences between flipping burgers and CEO of a bank are almost comically small.

the CEO might earn double, after taxes. in the US it'd be like 200x difference

[pulsar drum]

And here we have senior positions offering $160k salaries 😄

[rare sand]

it's pretty difficult to break 100k here even with senior positions in the capital.

and youd tax like 45%

but that's socialist democracy for you.

I like it, for the record.

[pulsar drum]

🇳🇴

[rare sand]

most people live well, instead of some people living super super well.

seems fine to me.

anyway we are getting way off topic

[vivid dock]

I dont get paid as an intern :(

[rare sand]

that also occasionally happens

[dire yew]

Before last year I always thought the difference between interns and co-ops are that interns don't get paid (maybe influenced by the intern movie too) and co-ops do

Then I learned they get paid and thought internshipa were 12-16 month positions and co-ops were 4 months

But now I seriously don't know the difference

[umbral valley]

@solid tusk I made like $15/hr when I was an intern

@dire yew https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2015/03/31/understand-the-differences-between-a-co-op-internship

[dire yew]

@umbral valley Thanks, I'll read into that

[shy pollen]

what are some good things to have on your portfolio?

[solid tusk]

@shy pollen depends on the jobs you are applying for

[shy pollen]

backend web/backend (severs)

[solid tusk]

Then you probably want to have some APIs (rest and graphql) and web apps in your portfolio

Try to make something where a recruiter can instantly see the usefulness of your application

Include good documentation, comments in your code

Dockerfile

Basically try to show that you know your shit in a way that is friendly for people who might not be programmers/technical people

[dapper yoke]

I just got rocked by the Levenshtein distance problem in a technical set. Should I be able to do that in 15 minutes as an entry level?

[ancient pulsar]

@dapper yoke The entry level people I've interviewed would not be able to write that algorithm in 15 minutes.

@dapper yoke In almost all of the interviews and assessments I do, I do have a few algorithm questions, So it would be good to have a good understanding on most of them, at least the popular ones. Generally I recommend a specific book, as well as a git hub repo (I dont know if I am allowed to link them here), to my team if I feel they could benefit from it.

[dapper yoke]

@ancient pulsar would you mind pm-ing me the details to those?

[ancient pulsar]

@dapper yoke ofcourse

[umbral valley]

To counter that, I’ve interviewed at about 8 places now and have yet to be asked any coding / algorithm problems in an entry level interview

[vapid jay]

What

Where do you live

[umbral valley]

AL

[vapid jay]

I checked huntvilles demographics, there's only 2% asians

I can't move there

[spiral iron]

If I end up taking contract work for a larger company, after taxes and depending on the job I'm usually making around 60k-100k for most of the contracts I look for.

[steep geyser]

What’s a good python course? I’m going to find myself unemployed in the next 3 months and would like to learn python.

I know it’s going to take much longer to really be proficient at python

[rare sand]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/info/resources

[rare sand]

check out something from this list

[restive pivot]

would you have a specific recommendation for somebody who has issues retaining information

[unreal linden]

yea, just start writing code. Try to build something, and google to fill the gaps. Have the official python tutorial and documentation on hand

[restive pivot]

[versed dawn]

Would a udacity nano degree hold any weight in an application?

[umbral valley]

Completely depends on the employer. Some view certificates as beneficial, others view them with absolutely 0 weight

[steep geyser]

@rare sand wow thank you

[hexed tulip]

hi all hope everyone is well

[restive pivot]

i am thank you very much curry furry

[steep geyser]

Should I take a bootcamp or learn python on my own and then branch off?

[umbral valley]

Bootcamps can be valuable; however, they lack a regulating body to oversee them like traditional colleges have. This means that the quality of education can vary wildly between boot camp to boot camp, AND there's no guarantee that even after completion you're in a position where the education you received at one is worth any merit to the hiring manager. That's not to say they're useless, just hard to pick the right one.

[steep geyser]

@umbral valley I would really like to learn python but everywhere I’ve liked it’s either start coding, read this, enroll here etc. I learn better with structure so a course would suit me well. But then it opens up a whole new hosts of options. Any suggestions on best courses to learn python from scratch?

[nocturne sluice]

tbh, I use udemy for personal gain.

[umbral valley]

Udemy and other online platforms have nice structure too

and are potentially much cheaper

[nocturne sluice]

I usually get the $200 classes when on sale for like $9 lol

[umbral valley]

Udemy always has those sales

they dont actually have $200 classes :p

[steep geyser]

Yeah this one is for sale right now

https://www.udemy.com/complete-python-bootcamp/

[nocturne sluice]

I just got a couple courses for data science and machine learning for around $20 along with django/python full stack

I vouch for Jose Portilla lol

AMAZING teacher

[steep geyser]

@nocturne sluice what Django/python full stack did you get

[nocturne sluice]

this is the data science one I got:
https://www.udemy.com/python-for-data-science-and-machine-learning-bootcamp/

this is the django full stack i got:
https://www.udemy.com/python-and-django-full-stack-web-developer-bootcamp/

Both INSANELY good explanation.

but for the data science one, you should have some knowledge in python already for the crash course section.

In the full stack class, you learn how to make a facebook clone i believe. dont quote me on that though lol

[steep geyser]

Awesome ty

[nocturne sluice]

You're Welcome!

[gritty ivy]

team tree house is very structured for learning

I personally like it

[copper breach]

Treehouse was good to start with, but once it gets to OOP it's not as good as other materials for Python.

[steep geyser]

I'm taking Udemy's Complete Python Bootcamp

pretty engaging so far

[hollow night]

Guys

what is the difference between data analytics and data science

[deep lodge]

Has anyone been able to get steady work abroad? I'm an engineer in the US and I use python a bit, but whenever I look at job postings in europe or south america it seems like they have plenty of engineers but are willing to sponsor visas for programming'

Debating whether to go all in on programming or do grad school in europe for coastal engineering which I think has the best chance of getting me to residency in a place where i can live without a car

I don't drive so the US is a hard place to live

[deep lodge]

Also considering transit/systems engineering masters since that also seems to be a more mobile job then the hydraulics stuff I'm doing right now

[frozen spear]

I'm not too much of a front-end guy, but assuming I was to learn something I can easily compliment with django, what would I want to focus on? React? Angular?

[solid tusk]

I wouldn't jump in to a framework without having an understanding of JavaScript and ES6

https://youtu.be/qi9VQqYcXqY

However, if you want to go for it, React and Vue are most in demand atm

[jolly frigate]

As an aside: @pyrrho12 on twitter is looking for somebody to make a 'Python C extension' for a project of his.

"Paid of course."

[muted trail]

Ok i need advice

I have started searching for full time jobs

Currently i am a masters student about to graduate in may

I am good with full stack development and also have experience in the same, but i love python a lot and want to go in data analytics for full time

Where should i start

Plus will people hire me for the same

I havent done a lot of data analytics work in the field maybe a months work that is it

Also what kind of jobs should i apply for

[final jolt]

@muted trail What's your Master's in? Your strongest selling point as a graduate student is going to be your thesis work

If you have any way of demonstrating proficiency with math skills then a CS degree + that would definitely be enough to get you in the door for junior Analysts positions

[steep geyser]

what courses would you guys recommend for someone that wants to learn python?

online self paced type courses

[tiny blaze]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/info/resources

[tiny blaze]

@steep geyser

[obsidian acorn]

@steep geyser there are a lot of courses on youtube on learning python. some of them go over particular usage of python, such as webdev, webscraping, ml and so on. These are for free channels. Additionally, there are some sites that offer some courses that you may be interested in, such as udemy, and other ones

for written instead of videos, we usually suggest automate the boring things with python, you can also check out https://www.learnpython.org/ as well as our resource page

[candid vortex]

You can go a long long way with free nowadays

Barrier of entry is super low for learning python and web dev nowadays which is super great

[molten spoke]

!tempmute @vapid jay 24h Posting piracy links in #career-advice for udemy

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: muted @vapid jay until Thu, 07 Feb 2019 21:12:09 GMT (Posting piracy links in #career-advice for udemy).

[nocturne sluice]

@molten spoke Did I post private links?

I got tagged from something lol

[molten spoke]

you were pinged in a message which contained links to a pirated version of udemy courses which was removed

[nocturne sluice]

Oh okay lol

Does anyone know what I should know before my interview as an entry level py dev?

[lime zealot]

Hey guys, random question. Best book for time management?

[umbral valley]

@nocturne sluice generally in an entry level interview they care about personality not so much about knowledge because they’re expecting to have to teach you a lot

[nocturne sluice]

So I should be okay with knowing advanced core and data science and machine learning with Django? All besides core i am alright at

@umbral valley

[umbral valley]

That’s going to depend on the specifics of your job, but in my experience (though I have a degree, YMMV if you don’t have one) I wasn’t asked a single thing about coding in any of the ~8 interviews I did

[vapid jay]

if I can make useful programs but I’m bad at solving programming puzzles quickly, am I kinda dumb

[lost geode]

@vapid jay the more that you do, the faster you will be at them

the trick is that when you break down a task, you will find ways to use things that you know

[vapid jay]

ok but is the fact that I can’t solve them v fast now a sign that I’m not cut out?

[lost geode]

kind of like driving around town. You tend to use roads that you are familiar with.

no

speed comes with practice

[fickle gate]

ive gotten to a proficiency where i'd like to start working on a portfolio, do any of you have any recommendations/pointers for where to start out from?

[lost geode]

write stuff

write tools that seem useful

make a project that does something that would make your life easier

[thick magnet]

ok but is the fact that I can’t solve them v fast now a sign that I’m not cut out?
not at all @vapid jay

and even if you were below average iq and struggled with more advanced programming, that still wouldn't mean you're not cut out. even basic programming can be like magic to people in a regular office setting, and highly useful.

[lost geode]

also, the fact that you can solve them (however slowly) means that you have the type of mind that can get around the puzzle and not give up

[nocturne sluice]

Difference between entry and junior level positions?

[umbral valley]

Different term, same position

@fickle gate just make stuff, just make sure it’s good code. Well documented, follows style guidelines, etc.

Recruiters don’t have time to look through every applicants portfolio - if they even check it at all - so when they look at a random project of yours, you want to make sure it leaves a good impression

[fickle gate]

alright so what are the style guidelines?

[umbral valley]

There’s a couple. PEP8 is the most popular for python, google has one that’s used a bit, and there’s a few more I think that other companies use. But pep8 is the most used

[fickle gate]

alright thanks

[rare sand]

!pep 8

[inner wren]

**PEP 8 - Style Guide for Python Code**

Link

Status

Active

Created

05-Jul-2001

Type

Process

[fickle gate]

i'll have to look into it

i usually just write code purely for it to be functional

and dont add much fluff to it

[umbral valley]

Style guides aren’t really adding fluff, it’s just how stuff is ordered and laid out to be most readable

[fickle gate]

ye i gathered that

[nocturne sluice]

I think that if I don't have my CS degree yet, getting a job is impossible.. The only interview I have scored so far is with a company I heard shady reviews about.

Summitworks Technologies Inc.,

[ocean hull]

Alright, I've started in python and learned all the basics, now, I'm having a hardtime, either to become a computer sceientest for software engeering and stuff, or a data scientest for analyzing data and programming machines, do you guys know what career should I pick, or can I learn the both?

[tiny blaze]

learn more python

and then decide what you like most

[ocean hull]

Okey, should I try mastering the basics?

I only know them though

l'll try starting having fun and making a very small program just to prepare

[tiny blaze]

yes

do that multiple times

take on a couple projects

[ocean hull]

Alright, thanks

[compact slate]

@ocean hull Definitely get into both before choosing a strict career path

[umbral valley]

@nocturne sluice it's hard because people who hire full time, want you full time not full time except when your in class. Look into internships and such

[vapid jay]

pirated udemy, where

[indigo sleet]

Discussing pirating is against the server rules :v

As is soliciting it

Don't forget!

[vapid jay]

where

[indigo sleet]

Why the hell would you even pirate a udemy course anyway

They're already cheap as heck

[vapid jay]

where

I

[craggy wave]

@vapid jay Please read our rules and pay special attention to rule 5. Discussing/assisting with piracy is not allowed on this server.

[vapid jay]

NEED ITTT