career-advice

[latent crystal]

idk whats graph or tree lol

[serene kindle]

the thing is... for writing basic front-end website computer science is not necessary

but when writing a software, it becomes important

even though there are so many packages which implement everything, in order to use them you still need to know how it works

its quite cool in 3 lines of python we can do so much... in fact its even more important to know hardcore technical stuff because in 3 lines of code you can do crazy stuff

[latent crystal]

idk why but this semester i've been demotivated

[serene kindle]

college is quite demotivating

school in general

[latent crystal]

but like switching majors sparked some interest in me

i was thinnking about the code school

but now i'm going to stay

[serene kindle]

code school is perfect to do after a CS degree

if have to choose one pick the CS degree

[latent crystal]

okay

[serene kindle]

4 years CS degree > 8 years code school

[latent crystal]

okay okay

i go to UH

university of Houston

[serene kindle]

nice

[latent crystal]

i might transfer if my grades allow

[serene kindle]

good luck

[fiery umbra]

Hey a recruiter asked me "what is git used for" i mean it is a versionning tool what else can it be?

[indigo sleet]

It's a version control tool yeah

Perhaps explain what that is too

[karmic spear]

well, there is a database engine based on git

you could try to search for it, there was somewhere an article like ~5-6 years ago

[balmy bone]

git gud

[vapid jay]

theyre just screening you most likely

version contorl is the right answer

[main thicket]

They probably dont want "Version control" as the answer, they want you to properly explain its use, not an answer you can get off the internet

[vapid jay]

But in a live interview, would you be able to get it off the internet

[narrow lake]

Git takes “snapshots” of files!
if files remain unchanged in a particular version, it simply links to the previous files and this keeps everything fast and lean.

it's a version control software that allows you to have “versions” of a project, which show the changes that were made to the code over time, and allows you to backtrack if necessary and undo those changes. This ability alone of being able to compare two versions or reverse changes, makes it fairly invaluable when working on larger projects within a team.

an accurate "analogy" of this will probably be a Wikipedia page for instance! if you’ve ever looked at the edit history of a Wikipedia page you’ll have a good idea of how "version control" works in a real-world scenario.

[rare sand]

if asked about git, I'd explain how version control works, explain branching, talk about accountability and git blame, explain how tags and releases work, talk about various git services like github and gitlab, explain how pull requests work, closed vs open source.. there's an opportunity to show that you know your shit in such an open-ended question. just saying "version control" is a weak response.

you can tell a lot about a person by how they approach questions like that.

[vapid jay]

i dont like that it makes it seem like an interrogation

"what is git"

expects a lengthy response for a 3 word question

imo, if you want a long response you should say "what is git, and what sorts of uses does it have"

to set the tone

[gritty ivy]

I don't think it does at all, he isn't implying that the recruiter expected it, but rather the person being interviewed is just showing what they know. Can't imagine the recruiter takes that negatively

[craggy wave]

I don't know, isn't it kind of like an interrogation? I mean, the sole job of a recruiter is to find a suitable candidate and they want to do that as quickly as possible. They do not necessarily have your best interests in mind, although your interests may align slightly with theirs depending on what they get paid for. So, they need to quickly screen people by asking a couple of question, probably over the phone, and don't have time to spend a lot of time with a random stranger unless someone seems to be a suitable candidate. Hence, their screening process is much like an interrogation.

[vapid jay]

Joel Spolsky has some interesting articles on the hiring process

[fiery umbra]

alright, thx guys ^^

So yea he probably was expecting what i just said. I just told my self "oh boy, there is other uses for git that i don't know" and an really didn't knew about the database part. Thanks again!

[vapid jay]

Hey python careers, I find myself a little stuck. Through my 20s I was doddling along nicely as a programmer. The part couple years I changed to project management and I don't like it.

I wanna switch back to programming but I feel like I'm too experienced to be considered for entry level roles (and my mortgage is too high) , but too rusty for the kind of 5 years experience developer jobs I used to do

There has to be some kinda middle ground here. Any ideas?

if you work for a big enough place they probably use an outdated stack anyway, lol

best thing you can do is apply or see if theres anything in your company

Mm or as you hint maybe other bigcorp

so hard to get anything done thouhg

Yes

:-)

I don't really wanna move internally because I'm fed up of this place and want a change of scenery

But I guess u can't always have what you want

[vapid jay]

sure you can

you just have to wait for it to work out

in that scenario, at least

[karmic spear]

Switching back is not really a big problem

plus it really depends on what kind of management position you had, but generally developer salary and manager salary is not that different

I think the easiest way is just to apply for few different positions and you'd quickly see what you need to learn or refresh in order to get a job

[narrow lake]

@vapid jay listen to this podcast There has to be some kinda middle ground here. Any ideas? http://talkingcode.com/podcast/episode-20-ben-orenstein/

[narrow lake]

The bigger challenge in what you are looking for is not whether it's possible or not (many people have done it), the challenge is instead the fact that most people will give up once they experience how much work it takes to get there.
Just as in anything else in real life, you can't expect to get above average results by giving just average effort!
Living constantly in the edge of your capabilities is definitely not for everybody.

[warm sinew]

Ah yes. The old axiom: If you want want most people don't have, be prepared to do what most people won't do

[narrow lake]

exactly

[fresh stump]

If you want what most people don't have, be prepared to do what most people won't do*

[warm sinew]

Thank you for the correction. That is right.

[rigid wadi]

is ms in data science a good ide

[main thicket]

if you want to go into data science and are in the position to do it, in general, yes

[vapid jay]

guys i'm a final year computer science student, i'm good at python and django, i'm desperately looking for a job i'm ready to relocate. please help.

[hollow flume]

this channel isn't for recruitment btw

[indigo sleet]

Dude. Alex. Seek professional help.

Get off Discord.

You're not going to feel better by talking like that here

[karmic spear]

@vapid jay just apply for the jobs, go through the interviews, you will see your week skills and strong skills, so then you can learn a bit things where you don't feel comfortable on the interviews and put a bit more accent into the things where you are strong on the inverviews.

[dusty canopy]

@vapid jay

[indigo sleet]

@dusty canopy

why are you randomly pinging a user

[dusty canopy]

Oh sorry

I meant.to ask him something

And then I got a notification which was more important lmao

Alex check your dms my friend is looking for python programmers

[dusty canopy]

@indigo sleet please don't give me an interaction lmao

[indigo sleet]

an infraction

[dusty canopy]

Lol

[vapid jay]

No interactions plz

[hallow iris]

So, if I'm working within SQL and Python for coursework, I'm about to possibly enter a data analytics/science internship where all I was told is "yeah we use SQL pretty often here", how can I be practicing in order to be ready for real work place use of something like SQL. IDK how much coursework correlates to a real world problem tbh. Along the same lines, At what level of knowledge should I push myself to have in order to perform well at a position like data scientist/analyst. Sorry if they is over-done question here.

[obsidian acorn]

I would suggest get really familiar with sql

you can practice on https://sqlzoo.net/wiki/SQL_Tutorial

there are a few other exercise sites for sql. afterwards, try to implement them in python, so, you can combine the two

connect your sql in python, and run the script in python. do all (or as many) of the exercise as you can

[hallow iris]

Appreciate the answer. At what point would you consider someone "familiar" with SQL. if there's such a metric that is.

[obsidian acorn]

if you are told to find a person, based on specific constraint, can do complete crud on db

you can consider yourself good enough to start

[hallow iris]

alright, I'm almost there I'd say

@obsidian acorn Really appreciate the answers.

[obsidian acorn]

np

[vapid jay]

People in my area using Django are making nearly $120,000 USD/year

[real python]

That's pretty much entry level for a lot of the major tech centers in the US at least

[glacial kelp]

moves to your area

[karmic spear]

isn't it silicon valley like salary?

I don't think that entry level for NY or Chicago is like that

[real python]

It's on the high end for Boston so I imagine it's not that far off for NY.

I know nothing about Chicago

[karmic spear]

according to glassdoor it's somethike 80k for entry level in NY avg

[green sinew]

Meanwhile in the UK you get no where near that amount of money

[karmic spear]

Are you sure? At least recruiters sent me few jobs with close to those numbers.

[vapid jay]

U guys are lucky

[obsidian acorn]

@karmic spear you have recruiters?

[hallow iris]

In Dallas I've seen anywhere from 85k-100k for developer positions

Which is nuts considering the cost of living being so low compared to some places in the states

[vapid jay]

Is it that being a web dev is where all the money is or is it because being a web dev requires exceptional ability

[hallow iris]

Supply and demand

High demand right now, with smaller supply.

[karmic bramble]

isn't frond-end web dev paid rather low compared to other dev positions?

[lost geode]

in a lot of places

[prime flame]

@green sinew computer science is barely a part of the us grade school curriculum. it's horrid

i believe that leads to the scarcity of developers here, and the oversaturation in england

[green sinew]

@prime flame You think that's bad?

[hallow iris]

It's an elective in most public school systems, and from my experience, never taught very well.

[green sinew]

I live in Scotland

We don't have CS. full stop

[prime flame]

all that's taught here is basic web dev

[green sinew]

We get nothing

Xd

The UK is not oversaturated either

[prime flame]

maybe some basic

[green sinew]

We are short

[prime flame]

really?

it doesnt seem that way

from my perspective in the states

[hallow iris]

Sounds like UK web devs need to start asking for higher starting salaries.

[green sinew]

What makes you say that? We have little to no CS teachers in high schools

@hallow iris We mostly use Windows servers

xddd

[gusty stump]

my school in UK in one year group 2 people chose to pick cs out of 300 oof

[silk bison]

Is there a channel here for recruitment? Since this one isn't

[pulsar drum]

No, not at the moment.

[silk bison]

Does anyone know where I can look for a CTO? I can't publicly post an offer

@pulsar drum

[pulsar drum]

No

[nocturne kite]

@DrewDaPilot#3675 please check your PM and let me know

@silk bison have you tried linkedin?

[main thicket]

@silk bison Is that a paid position?

Do you have an established company?

[silk bison]

Decently large company, highly paid CTO position

[hallow iris]

IDK if that's how a CTO work

[main thicket]

You'd assume you'd want your CTO to be from your company so they can know the stack, company direction, etc

[hallow iris]

IIRC you needed to be a corporation to have a CTO? Isn't it like a board elected position?

[silk bison]

I'm a board member

And with the right candidate direction and vision can be shared over lunch

[tawny quartz]

You're looking for a CTO on a Discord server?

[hallow iris]

that's what I'm saying

[tawny quartz]

I'm glad you think so much of our server, but this may be the wrong place to look for such a position

[burnt lion]

I volunteer to be cto for only 400 million dollars/year

[hallow iris]

I'll take up the offer too, especially if there's lunch involved.

[nocturne kite]

what's the ratio in this discord server between Students or hobbyist and professionals who actually work as engineer/developers?

[vivid dock]

Fair bit of both? but most likely more student/hobbyists

[main thicket]

What if I'm a student, a hobbyist and work professionally

[timid turtle]

< Visible confusion >

[nocturne kite]

@vivid dock I thought so

[vivid dock]

Personally work with Js/.netcore, and teach python in regards to machine learning. But most of the python i write is as a hobby

[nocturne kite]

@timid turtle
< confusion > **What's confusing ?**🙂 < / confusion >

[timid turtle]

[vapid jay]

any online job markets where companies offer internship regarding python? Apart from indeed.com and Stack?

[vapid jay]

Does anyone know a good graduate school to study software engineering? And I mean strictly software engineering. I have no interest in studying computer science further.

[lost geode]

I don't know of many programs other than carnegie melon that get properly into software engineering

and even then they are largely comp sci based

[vapid jay]

ah well

[minor helm]

Yeah I havent heard of one that doesnt include an amount of comp sci to give foundation/context.

So might be worth finding one that does the least!

[hollow mantle]

Kind of counter intuitive though. Engineers usually need to know a lot about cs

[fresh stump]

Maybe it presupposes a degree in CS?

[astral badger]

Any idea where the best place for a full stack engineer (Django and Channels Vue.js with Webpack) should look for a job?

[vapid jay]

Stack Exchange, maybe

Part of their revenue is employers putting put adds for developers

They probably have a job listing index

[astral badger]

How well do those jobs pay?

My guess is 35K

[vapid jay]

If the employer is looking for people rather than the other way around, probably a fine mint

[astral badger]

Really?

[vapid jay]

Also not to get your hopes up but $35k is lowball. Basically servitude

That is barely $15/hour

[fresh stump]

$35k is superrrr low

[astral badger]

I really don't know

[fresh stump]

Depends where you are tho

[hallow iris]

There's people at home depot who make 35k a year. That's super low.

[fresh stump]

Depends on experience lvl

If he's an intern, then I'd be ok with $35k as first internship

[vapid jay]

If you are fullstack with Django, you are looking at $100k. Google says Django developers in my area make about $110k

[hallow iris]

My internship currently pays around 38k a year.

Before taxes

[astral badger]

Woah

[hallow iris]

@vapid jay that's average, median or what?

[astral badger]

How hard do you think it would be to get that job?

[hallow iris]

If demands high, which usually it is, not terribly hard if you have experience.

[vapid jay]

$118k is the annual average in the US

[hallow iris]

Not bad at all

[fresh stump]

Yeah @hallow iris, same-ish

[hallow iris]

Oof

[fresh stump]

Though I'm pretty bad :/ lol

[hallow iris]

I'm not even done with my degree, so I'm happy with what I can get. It'll beat working my ass off at Home Depot 40 hrs a week

[fresh stump]

Yeah same

[hallow iris]

Plus, they usually offer a position at the end of the internship project based on performance

So if I can get my foot in the door early and get some experience, that's killer

Only use SQL as of right now, but I wanted to learn python for later down the road. Still got a ways to go into learning python, but it'll be worth it.

[vapid jay]

If I proved myself in Django I could be making 4x what I do now

[fresh stump]

Nice

[astral badger]

How much do open source deveopers make?

[fresh stump]

Uh

[vapid jay]

The scope of that is huge. A lot of people contribute for free. But there are companies like Mozilla I believe who hire teams. Of people who actually get paid for that kind of work, the national average seems to sit around $110k.

Canonical too, probably.

Although operating system work doesn't appeal that much to me. Working in systems is too wiry.

Just installing Arch Linux was enough for me tyvm

[fresh stump]

Hah, try manjaro

It's really nice

[vapid jay]

I went back to Mint. Don't need something that simple :p

[fresh stump]

Whaaat. manjaro is great!

[dire dirge]

i got stupid lucky. my job is partially just being a computer guy in a business where nobody else is a computer guy. but i also get to make tools to save labor and double check things to make the product better.

so a great platform to do college courses part time while also making programs

[meager tree]

What kind of projects do you guys think would look good in my portfolio? I’m trying to get more intermediate/involved stuff in there so, I can maybe get a internship or freelance on some small stuff.

[astral badger]

Something that works

Works very well

[meager tree]

I mean, I made a rock, paper, scissors game that works really well but I doubt that’s what will get me employment.

[astral badger]

Well anyone can do that

It's got be something that you think can set you apart

[meager tree]

...And we’re back at square one.

[astral badger]

Only you would know

[meager tree]

No i wouldn’t know that’s why I’m asking.

Hence square one.

[astral badger]

You can't show employeers something you don't have

[hallow iris]

Part of development is creative thinking I'd say

[meager tree]

I’m on a low for creative thinking right now. So I’m asking.

[hallow iris]

Make a discord bot or something.

[meager tree]

I feel like if people have any general ideas or concepts that would be great.

[astral badger]

You got to devople it

[hallow iris]

try to make something to automate.

[meager tree]

I can fill in the specifics of what kinds of things i need it to do.

I’ve already made a code that scrapes a website for specific things then posts it to twitter but I don’t think that’s particularly amazing. We have share buttons already.

[hallow iris]

If we had the ideas, we'd do it ourselves

[meager tree]

I think what you’re saying is kinda nonsensical. You’ve probably already made an interesting project, I’m just asking for ideas

I’m positive most people here have made something interesting or useful. I have a lapse for that right now.

[hallow iris]

nah, I'm just a student. no portfolio either

[astral badger]

I've made a django app that can does timetracking

[hallow iris]

I'm only here to learn, look at some projects, and ask for help from time to time.

[astral badger]

I only made it because it was what I needed

[meager tree]

Time tracking?

[astral badger]

Clocking in and out

Then getting a report every week of how many hours you worked

[hallow iris]

So like the Kronos system?

[astral badger]

Sure

It's everything just give me a week and a lot coffee

[meager tree]

It took you a week?

[astral badger]

No it took me two week because it was my first django project, but what I said is a joke

[meager tree]

Interesting.

Do you have other projects done or is that your only so far?

[astral badger]

Other smaller one yeah

Nothing worth talking about

[gritty ivy]

wrong big

[meager tree]

@astral badger they are worth talking about. I’m sure they’re good.

[vivid dock]

@meager tree would you mind setting a nickname on the server to something that is typeable by a typical eu/na keyboard. Makes it easier to mention you

[meager tree]

@vivid dock done

[vivid dock]

Much appreciated

[gaunt hawk]

anyone interviewed at Stripe or Skyscanner before? would love to hear a bit because i'm thinking of applying

[vapid jay]

@gaunt hawk my friend works at stripe.. i can ask him and get back to you if you give me a question or two

[gaunt hawk]

@vapid jay oh thanks, i'd feel bad though. would just want to know the specifics of what they typically test dev candidates on: algos, or practical coding, or theory

i've heard they do a pair programming session

[vapid jay]

ill ask him

[obsidian acorn]

Anyone here familiar with Ad Hoc LLC?

[vapid jay]

@gaunt hawk all three

Is all he said lol

[gaunt hawk]

@vapid jay ouch lol, tough

thanks man 😃

[vapid jay]

any other markets apart from Linkedin and indeed?

[vapid jay]

Depends on your country I assume

In France, viadeo is quite well known

[vapid jay]

Glassdoor

Stackoverflow has some I think

[vapid jay]

@meager tree

1. Make a deployable website that manages inventory.
2. Then report data on inventory and trends.
   There, you are hirable by 75% of companies for automation.

[orchid shuttle]

What's the consensus on going for something like Hack Reactor? Anyone had any experience with them?

[upper fjord]

@vapid jay monster is international I believe

[ripe isle]

Hey folks, new to the community here. I am a systems administrator right now, and most of my coding is done in PowerShell. I've seen a lot of job postings for Python developers, as well as DevOps roles - not sure which one would suit me better, but I'm definitely looking to move up and out of "install this Windows Server for the 500th time" life. So few questions (not all career related):

1. I have a great interest in coding, always have. PowerShell is a good OO outlet for that, but with my background, do you think better job prospects are there for DevOps or as a pure Python developer? I'm sure I could grow into either, just looking for the best route in terms of work/life and pay.
2. Should I bother with Python on Windows? Do developers work primarily in Linux environments? If so, which distro should I focus on learning with?
3. I currently don't have a degree, but am getting one in Information Technology, which will come with a few certifications as well from WGU. Should I include some Python as an elective, or if I plan to go the full developer route, should I switch my major? I'm only 1 semester in, so not a big deal.

Thanks for reading!

Oh and what IDE should I look into for learning purposes? It seems like python.org suggests Thonny for teaching/learning. Or should I go with another one that will be used in everyday working life?

[vapid jay]

@ripe isle Check out pycharm, best one there is and it has a community edition.

[ripe isle]

@vapid jay Thanks for the reply! I'll check it out

[fresh stump]

@ripe isle I use vscode

@ripe isle the OS doesn't matter. Tho I personally prefer Linux. Distro doesn't matter, but I use Manjaro

@ripe isle I can't comment on 1. Don't have enough experience

@ripe isle again, I can't really comment on 3. Except you might have an easier time if you want to be a dev to switch to CS

[ripe isle]

@fresh stump Thanks for the recommendations! I'm currently installing gnome desktop on top of Ubuntu 18.04 and then installing PyCharm with snap. We'll see how it goes!

[fresh stump]

Sounds good

[vapid jay]

Hi folks, joined today and not gonna lie, Python's always resonated with me the most. I'm interested in delving into information security/red team pentesting but as of right now. I'm a third year Computer Science student, I'm at that point where I know where I am right now but not sure how to get to the point of that job title being below my name.

What would you guys have advice-wise to help me get to point B?

Current hobbies: Lockpicking, psychology behind social engineering and tweaking existing python projects off github.

[ripe isle]

Speaking as someone who's been in IT for a few years now - in general, you don't get into any security related field without a few years of experience under your belt. How can you secure something when you don't know how it works in the real world, right? I would suggest continuing in school - a degree is great for opening doors! But also start to look into some industry-accepted certifications, depending on the type of security you want to get into.

Also, from my personal experience - blue team is where you want to be. It's much more valuable to corporations to know how to fix security holes than knowing how to find them. 😉

[vapid jay]

Yeah, my lecturer was talking to me about that last year. He suggested software engineering but as far as I know. Is Python used in that context?

Can't secure a fort if you don't know what bricks you're using

[ripe isle]

Oh, sure. I'm new here too, so from my limited knowledge, Python is more or less an all-purpose language. I'm sure you'll find good use for it in the pentesting world. Look into Kali Linux, I've heard good things. And get a good understanding of networking concepts and network security. Or, if you want to do front-end security, you'll need to know at least a few languages used in web development, one of which would likely be Python.

But really, in security consulting, it's a lot more about using tools effectively and knowing concepts / best practices. You're not likely going to be debugging someone else's code all the time.

[vapid jay]

I'm actually pretty good for that front so far. I've done 2 years of Java, we're starting a cybersec module next semester and I should be hitting my CCNA-1 and CCNA-2 by the end of the university semester.
Web dev wise, we did 2 years of PHP, SQL and general web security.

As usual, my biggest worry is how expansive is the tech world gonna get for me to know which bits I need to learn that I haven't discovered yet.

[ripe isle]

Yeah....about that....in tech, you're always learning. The real learning begins when you leave school. You will be learning for the rest of your life. So don't sweat that stuff.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I'd be disappointed if I stopped. Tech is dynamic which keeps it fresh

You're never ahead for long and it always gets more interesting #Skynet

[ripe isle]

You're never ahead

FTFY

[vapid jay]

True that. Feels good to feel not-behind

[ripe isle]

Been doing 4 years of systems admin. Every day, my coworkers will hear me go "What the hell is this?" Welp, time to learn something new...

[vapid jay]

What is Sys admin like?

I really don't want to believe it's just bulk machine installation and maintenance

[ripe isle]

It sounds like you're doing well in school and staying on top of things, and also thinking about the next step. That's essential to STEM fields. "Learning how to learn" is what will make you successful

[vapid jay]

For me, it's finding out about the stuff I need to know about next

It's a funny paradox.

I'm trying to ensure when I finish this year or next, I'm ready to just fly straight into the next area

[ripe isle]

Umm...systems administration is different to different companies. Right now, I manage a mostly Windows environment of about 120 virtual machines and 3k+ endpoints. I manage VMware, Active Directory, Group Policy, SCCM, Cisco gear, MSSQL databases, various 3rd party applications, Office 365, and I write PowerShell automation. I have 2 coworkers, and our team also has 4 remote hands and 4 helpdesk personnel.

[vapid jay]

Damn, that's a lot of territory to manage

Barely managed to wrap my head around SQL automation on the backend

[ripe isle]

I'm thinking of making a change into something related to Python, though. Either move into DevOps, or just see how far I can take it as a developer

[vapid jay]

I've had a friend who worked in DevOps. DigitalOcean, I believe.

If you'd like. I can ask him some questions

Used to do CloudOps, then shifted area.

If there's any reason I'd take up python fully.

It's to get rid of bracing and semicolon OCD

Indentation OCD seems more manageable on the mental side

That and you can burn someone for quad spacing instead of tabbing.

[ripe isle]

I've worked with DevOps guys before, they recommended Python

One of them wrote Ansible scripts using YAML

Seemed to work pretty well

[vapid jay]

Hmm, I know XML, can't say I heard of YAML

(You can never know enough abbreviations)

[ripe isle]

"not Your Average Markup Language"

[vapid jay]

That's actually the abbreviation?

[ripe isle]

lol yup

[vapid jay]

Man, I love this industry.

[ripe isle]

A lot of the linux packages & communities are named after food.

Or mythical creatures

[vapid jay]

I never really knew why that was a trend.

[ripe isle]

"Chef" uses "Cookbooks". We obviously can't take ourselves seriously

[vapid jay]

Might just be collective humor 😄

[ripe isle]

Anyway, good luck man! It sounds like you're doing well in school, which is a good indication that you'll enjoy the field and do well. Lots of jobs out there.

[vapid jay]

Translating their relation to JSON
However, JSON and YAML have different priorities. JSON’s foremost design goal is simplicity and universality. Thus, JSON is trivial to generate and parse, at the cost of reduced human readability.
probably just means
JSON is for computers, not people

Yeah, I hope you find something good in DevOps. No one seems to stay in one sector long which is cool

Nice bit of experience all around the park on this industry

[solid tusk]

I thought YAML was for Yaml Aint Markup Language

What kind of projects should I try to fill my GitHub with if I'm going for an entry level job? I guess it would be important to be able to show that I have an understanding of Python, some popular frameworks and maybe some front-end knowledge as well?

And of course that I know how to use Git

[vapid jay]

Maybe something related to the job you want

[solid tusk]

Most job titles are just "developer" or "software engineer" :D

I'm just wondering like, what's expected in an entry-level position

Of course it varies, but generally

[vapid jay]

looking for a python dev to help me with something (can pay)

[indigo sleet]

This channel is not for recruitment - it even says it in the channel topic

We're planning on setting up a recruitment system, but we have bigger priorities right now

[vapid jay]

sorrry

[nocturne lichen]

can anyone tell me what a software engineer actually is

and what they do

thanks

[lunar harness]

a software engineer is a person who creates software. It can be for websites, games, apps, robots, AI, data science and much more

[nocturne lichen]

@lunar harness damn so it's a pretty versatile term

@lunar harness it sounds so much more odd than it actually is. thanks

[vapid jay]

im hospitality management master student and i learned python, html, css before, is there a way to combine it in a career? or maybe economics and python?

[lunar harness]

a software engineer is basically a programmer, although hobbyists usually refer to themselves as "programmers" than "software engineers" as the latter name is usually used for people working as a programmer as a profession, as far as I know @nocturne lichen

[nocturne lichen]

@lunar harness thanks I will definetly screenshot them

that*

@lunar harness I know this is careers but it seems more active here so I'll ask here anyway,if you don't want to answer then don't it's your choice, but what are parameters. I don't really understand what they are or the point of them in functions

[lunar harness]

i think that would be more suited for #python-discussion?

@vapid jay you can combine html, css, js and python into a career by learning a backend web framework for python

popular python web frameworks include Flask and Django

[nocturne lichen]

@lunar harness didn't see that so thanks

[vapid jay]

is there a name for this "job"?

[lunar harness]

Backend web developer

or you can be a full stack

backend devs jobs are to create the stuff that happens in the background of the website

stuff that the user cant see

stuff like databases, apis, form handling etc.

[vapid jay]

so its basic web dev

not connected with econ

@lunar harness

[lunar harness]

yeah i dont know anything about economics

but i hope that answered your first q?

[frozen spear]

hey all, if you are wanting to use python not as a full time gig, but secondary income where do you go to get leads? Or is it just the old fashion way of building contacts and referrals? Looking at some sites like freelancer etc-- not too sure about them

[lost geode]

look for contract work that will accept your working as a second job and not reporting to their location

[vapid jay]

Has anyone done any work with recruiters or headhunters or anything or know how to go about getting my name on lists of recruiters in other areas than my own? I've been looking to get out of my region basically since I got there except a brief time where I liked it but pretty certain now at least enough to get my name out there and not sure where to start with that. I don't mind 3rd party recruiters because then at least I can scope out other regions, looking to move around May-July

[lost geode]

@vapid jay there are a couple of things here

first, headhunters don't work for you

you aren't on a list, a single headhunter that knows you will help to align you with jobs that the company is working to fill

second, a big company will have access to listings in other cities

you can use your local recruiter in a company like Robert Half that does work in your city and the destination city, and they can reach out to find listings in that city that you may fit for

[vapid jay]

do they need to do any kind of screening or anything or can they just look at my linkedin?

also does applying through third party recruiters affect salary at all or nah

[lost geode]

Some recruiters and some employers like to do screenings

[vapid jay]

i'm worried about applying for jobs because i've never known much about algorithms and stuff i've gotten pretty lucky with my career so far but i do good work and can adapt to most environments

also not been in workforce long though

[lost geode]

recruiters usually want to meet with you and get an idea of what work you are looking for so that they can know what jobs you might want to be alerted to, a proper recruiter will never submit you for a job without your explicit approval

how long have you been working in code?

[vapid jay]

i graduated in 2017

i started working right after, but i had internships too

but professionally full time since june 2017

[lost geode]

that may be helpful depending on where you are going

[vapid jay]

i'd be leaving a relatively major company and looking for something much smaller so i'm hoping that plays a role, but its deceiving because i was in my first company for 11 months then this one contacted me out of the blue and i took a job with them

so i've been here for 6 months now, and the window i['m looking to move in would be another year there

i have pretty solid reasons for leaving both positions though so i'm not too worried about that

[lost geode]

Good luck

[vapid jay]

yeah i guess

i mean it'd be a year in both so it's not as bad as 6 months

according to linkedin i was in my first job for 13 months

but im guessing most people know linkedin dates are bullshit

[hallow iris]

@vapid jay only room for one of us around here

[sturdy hearth]

Hello, I was hoping someone can help me better understand how to use Git?

I've been learning how to program in python for a bit and was advised to use that website to work on projects

[upbeat fiber]

i don't think here is the best to discuss the usage of Git, tho trying to help you, sometimes wikipedia is a good start to understand some stuff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git

[sturdy hearth]

I wanted to know how to use it when it comes to build a career

I am learning programming through self-study

[upbeat fiber]

ohhh ok, in projects depending on how big they are, and how many contributors, you need to "control" the changes that happen at your source, GIT is a way to do it

actually learning more about version-control systems help you a lot pursuing some jobs, IMHO is a must know it

[sturdy hearth]

I am not sure what version-control means

[upbeat fiber]

did you used GIT before?!

[sturdy hearth]

No

[upbeat fiber]

had some contact with it?!

[sturdy hearth]

I want to know what's best for beginners on git

[upbeat fiber]

by that you mean?! where you can find some content to learn more about GIT?!

[sturdy hearth]

I was hoping to learn from people who were in my position. I am not sure what projects I should get involved in

[upbeat fiber]

ok maybe i'm seeing this wrongly, but do you know the "difference" between git and github?!

[sturdy hearth]

No

[upbeat fiber]

https://codeburst.io/git-and-github-in-a-nutshell-b0a3cc06458f

try this link

[sturdy hearth]

Okay. Thank you

[mild zenith]

@mortal cipher Keep that kind of stuff in one of the off topic channels

!tempmute @mortal cipher 30m Spamming emoji in the #career-advice channel for no apparent reason.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: muted @mortal cipher until Fri, 18 Jun 2021 17:37:31 GMT (Spamming emoji in the #career-advice channel for no apparent reason.).

[lunar harness]

@mild zenith

m is for months i think?

[mild zenith]

What in the magical hell

Aparently

[lunar harness]

they changed it yesterday i think

[mild zenith]

-sighs- God damn it

!unmute @mortal cipher

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: Un-muted @mortal cipher.

[mild zenith]

Good catch.

[upbeat fiber]

LOL being muted by months

Hemlock banhammer

[vapid jay]

lmao

am i gonna get banned for that

lol

[mellow agate]

Banned? No.

[mild zenith]

No, but I'd appreciate it if you kept the random chatter to the proper channels

Otherwise the months will be intentional

[vapid jay]

geez

ok

[upbeat fiber]

[vapid jay]

capital M is months, m is always minutes.
should probably just adhere to python datetime format convention
https://docs.python.org/3/library/datetime.html#strftime-and-strptime-behavior

[karmic bramble]

Well, actually that's what it does, as it says there:

%m     Month as a zero-padded decimal number.
%M     Minute as a zero-padded decimal number.

[vapid jay]

lol, then, carry on.

[rare sand]

also https://strftime.org is nice

[mortal cipher]

Lol wtf

[gloomy coyote]

Question: I live in Massachusetts, I've been looking into a software engineer internship, are most software engineer internships paid now adays?

[opaque cove]

yes

@gloomy coyote don't take an internship that is unpaid

also, don't be afraid to look at other companies that aren't strictly software engineering

[hallow hatch]

C is better than Python

No jk

[upbeat fiber]

o.O

don't think here is the best place to discuss this

[vapid jay]

@gloomy coyote the rule is that if you are doing any work for the company at all, (that takes any skill to do), you should be getting paid.

[vapid jay]

would you be able to get a job with computer science if you only knew python?

[upper fjord]

@vapid jay Yes, it all comes down to the jobs applications requirements.

[vapid jay]

ok thanks!

[vapid jay]

most people have no clue what they're doing, that goes both ways.
the employer has no idea what they want, and you have no idea what they want. everybody can win

[timid turtle]

That really depends on the company

[real python]

That seems like a pretty obtuse assessment of the hiring process

[upbeat fiber]

@real python couldn't agree more, yep some companies don't have a clue what to do, however that is really problem in the managment itself, also, if a business is in this "mess" more likely will fail and "shutdown". @vapid jay try to avoid generalizing situations

[analog turtle]

@real python that varies depending on the company

my first co was like that

[real python]

I’m not arguing that it exists. Providing it as general advise is just wrong

[twin quarry]

Have you guys heard of Launchcode? Any thoughts?

[vapid jay]

What positions are those that direct and make decisions about what and products are made? And how they're made and such?
I think I'd be very very good at that.

like, companies like google and amazon waste millions on marketing and wind up just putting out trash.
I have lots of ideas. I know things that people need and want now, but have nowhere to go for.

[real python]

CEO

[vapid jay]

I think I'm going to go for this on my resume.

I've grown up with technology and people.
I'm good at solving problems.
Let me help you prevent them.

[real python]

I'm sure that'll work real well

[vapid jay]

I think I'm going to go with something like that for my cover letter.

[slender zinc]

Everyone on god's green earth alive right now has grown up with people and technology

[vapid jay]

@slender zinc yes, that's why I didn't put that exactly.
but, I grew up tearing things apart and figuring out how they work, not just pressing buttons on a screen.

[old stream]

some people are omish but I still see something technology based like a cash register :p

Amish*

omish? idk

[quiet plank]

Is anyone able to give advice on achieving jobs like OSCP? Do I need to learn both software and hardware security or just one of it?

[hollow mantle]

The short answer is yes

[hollow mantle]

But it's also not so cut and dry. You'll need to know how things work, and the possible ways a system could be vulnerable, whether that's physical or not.

For example, social engineering is an attack vector that doesn't really involve either, but is something you need to prepare for and educated about.

@vapid jay That's just engineering

And good luck with convincing those large companies. They're run that way for a reason.

Marketing people get promoted when a product sells well. All the sudden you have people that aren't really in touch with their product in charge of it's development.

[quiet plank]

I was offered in computer science and information technology course and I was wondering which one I should take so it would help me getting those kind of jobs.

[vapid jay]

@hollow mantle and historically, those marketing people drive those companies into the ground.
I understand there's a reason, but how do I beat it?

[real python]

Run your own company

Should make billions, since you’ve figured it all out

[fresh stump]

so snarky 😉

[real python]

I’m not sure what other option there is, the people hiring for these companies are apparently idiots, along with the people running the company, so why work there at all?

[upbeat fiber]

@vapid jay don't let your ego blinds you, because IMHO, you really need drop it, no one has the "true answer" therefore you are just wrong like the people you think are the wrong ones

[vapid jay]

anyone had any experience going to uni for CS at a pretty late age?

mid-20s, even

[upbeat fiber]

I had some friends who did graduated, what is the question about it?!

[vapid jay]

how did their job search go?

after the fact, i mean

did it seem to be a huge problem for them getting hired?

[upbeat fiber]

O.o

[vapid jay]

genuinely curious, no funky business

pun intended

[upbeat fiber]

So you think it's late do to CS at your twenties?!

[vapid jay]

to start, maybe

[bronze echo]

he's probably worried about ageism in the tech industry

[vapid jay]

i mean, i just don't know anyone who's done it

yes

i am

[upbeat fiber]

Hum...

[bronze echo]

i'm in my late 20s and plan to start a CS degree in the next year or two but i'm basically just gonna wing it, not that that's of any help lol

[vapid jay]

wow awesome

i just know that when i started my engineering degree

[vivid dock]

I had a guy in his late 60s finish the courses I took. Not exactly CS, but in the same ball park.

[vapid jay]

the uni required certain things that would be unreasonable for a non-recent highschool grad

[bronze echo]

are you planning to go into a specific field @vapid jay ? like big data or anything like that?

[vapid jay]

or for someone in... dire circumstances

[upbeat fiber]

I met a developer who started his graduation at 35, now he has 46/47 and he is pretty well in his field

[vapid jay]

@bronze echo possibly ML/AI

otherwise no

it's not a necessity

but that would be my preference

it's actually incredible that people are going in that late, that's mind-warping to me

my life is saved

[vivid dock]

There's not really any age restriction, just motivation and time limits.

[bronze echo]

ML/AI is t h e f u t u r e so yeah i can see the interest, plus its just cool stuff in general, unfortunately i don't have any insight from a hiring manager perspective, but i do know plenty of people in their 30s+ with programming jobs and not even necessarily a degree, i think it mostly comes down to what company are you gunning for

[vivid dock]

If you have the time for it, and want to do it. (and economy to backup not working during it), then i dont see why not

[bronze echo]

Google can probably afford to only hire 22 year old dual-PhD holders or whatever but smaller companies probably aren't as stringent

[vapid jay]

i see

i had some ins with google when i was younger but turned them down to focus on a different career path regrettably

probably would be expired now i guess

o well all i can do is try

[hollow mantle]

Programming is probably one of the least stingy fields that pay well

I dropped out of college second year and I'm at about $30/hr freelancing atm

[bronze echo]

i think the degree itself can be useful if you make it useful, you get out what you put in basically. i know lots of people who have degrees in totally unrelated fields, if nothing else at least with a degree you could always move into the management track later in life, which while probably boring is guaranteed safe income if nothing else

[vapid jay]

@hollow mantle do your freelance opportunities come from living in an urban area?

[bronze echo]

i wasn't planning on going to college ever because i make decent wages as an IT guy without it but i was recently hired at a university and they will pay for 100% of my tuition so i figure i might as well take it, for as to why i'm going for a degree so late in my life

[hollow mantle]

They're almost all remote jobs

[vapid jay]

nice

i'd love to know how you got a decent portfolio built up tbh

[hollow mantle]

I did get a few offers from within Portland for like 50/hr, but my 2 yrs experience didn't qualify yet.

[vapid jay]

it seems like it would be a bit of an oversaturated market, remote programming

[hollow mantle]

2yrs "professional" xp

[vapid jay]

did you do FOSS work a lot?

[hollow mantle]

I got started on UpWork, doing a lot of automation

Stock trading algos and bitcoin transactions mostly

DIdn't pay well, but I was able to get some experience working with clients, which is the most important part

From there it was just networking on Linkedin

[vapid jay]

simple enough.

that's neat, thank you

[hollow mantle]

np

[upbeat fiber]

Simple is better than complex... @vapid jay just don't overthink too much and go build stuff

[vapid jay]

yea but you gotta build stuff for other people

just wondered how he got the first opportunities ^_^

[bronze echo]

i'm not entirely sure if this is 100% true but just based on my little bit of experience, i know that "actual tech guys" don't mind if you're a graybeard, they might even prefer it -- so ageism doesn't really apply there. i think its mostly the hiring managers and recruiters who want the 22 year old degree-holders. again, not sure if this is true or not just based on my observations / feelings

once you're past HR and initial interviews etc., in the tech interviews with the actual people you'd actually be working with, they just want to see you demonstrate skill

[upbeat fiber]

In tech world, careful with the "Silicon Valley mentality"

[bronze echo]

also like the director at my university told me even though i'm in my late 20s, she said i'm still a child lol

[vapid jay]

i want to avoid any relic of silicon valley possible

it's not my chic

[upbeat fiber]

@bronze echo your director is pretty wise

[bronze echo]

i'd say go for the degree if you want the degree and feel it will be a useful thing to have under your belt, and if it won't put you into a ton of debt unnecessarily

you're probably right @upbeat fiber

[vapid jay]

i would definitely feel more comfortable applying to jobs with a degree

[bronze echo]

its a good way to "open doors" as they say, plus like the way i figure it, its always a fallback for the 'management track' in a career field even if management is boring at least its a steady paycheck -- as far as i know you cannot get a mgmt job without a degree

[vapid jay]

i mean, i know design patterns pretty well and basics of CS and even have somewhat of a portfolio working on FOSS projects but still

[upbeat fiber]

You don't need it, but it will help you a lot not only for jobs also in open more horizons

[vapid jay]

i feel odd applying for a job without it

[bronze echo]

i've gotten tons of jobs at some pretty big tech firms without a degree so it is possible

[wanton holly]

there are a fair few people in this server, and perhaps even in our staff team, who work as software developers without much specialised education (if any).

[bronze echo]

i don't want to give away too much personally identifying information but you would recognize some of the companies i worked at by name and i literally dropped out of high school and never got a degree (i spent a lot of time on the computer as a teenager instead of going to school)

[vapid jay]

wow

[bronze echo]

degrees can still be a useful thing though, and if you want the more formal education i wouldn't ever tell somebody not to go for it -- as long as it makes sense for you

[hollow mantle]

That being said, the self-taught route has it's cons. The lack of structured learning is frustrating sometimes

[bronze echo]

^ for sure!

[vapid jay]

sure

[bronze echo]

tech/computing/coding is such an immense field its very easy to get lost in

[vapid jay]

i've been doing hackathons and stuff and winning at nationals in a bunch of organizations in high school and independent since i was 15 or so

[wanton holly]

i can't wait

[vapid jay]

so it's not that i'm new

[hollow mantle]

The Art of Computer Programming is a godsend for this

[vapid jay]

i just turned down basically every job opportunity because i wanted to go into something else ;_;

i'll have to think about things and put together my cv

thank you guys, you've been incredibly inspiring

[bronze echo]

😄

[candid vortex]

I find it funny when I see a programmer position advertised for like half the going rate

• Must have degree. $55k PA

I ran into a startup owner at a random function the other week. He seemed very interested when I said I was learning Python. This was my first real contact with someone in the industry in person. Do you think Python developers are in demand?

[karmic spear]

Don't forget that rate heavily depends on city and required skills

You could check the demand just by searching for positions that require python in your city

[candid vortex]

Yeah I'm subscribed to all the developer postings just to keep my finger on the pulse

But most of the job postings are advertising salaries double what the one I spoke about was posting

It's just funny when some companies think they can pay half market rate and expect someone good. Especially someone responsible for developing their customer facing software.

[icy berry]

It is my experience that you get payed for your skill or for what you do. there is also some adjustment from place to place to be considered.

[frozen spear]

eek

[burnt tiger]

I'm beginning to notice that job stability is also a significant factor. This is certainly not always the case, but in the government sector at least the low pay is compensated by benefits and a very low likelihood of being replaced/laid off in comparison. I recently started an internship working in a development team for a local government office and while the others have make remarks/jokes about the pay, the pressure to overperform to avoid being replaced that I've heard of is virtually nonexistent there

Besides the less competitive pay, the downside seems to primarily be in underbudgeting and them being fairly slow to upgrade their systems, but I've been enjoying it so far. I'm quite fond of the laid back environment I've experienced thus far

[karmic spear]

are you talking about US? because is EU your employer will have hard times to replace you if he decides to

[burnt tiger]

Yes, US. Our top paying private sector jobs seem to be infamous for replacing/cycling through people by comparison, but admittedly I lack the experience to say that's a certainty. That is just based on what I've heard from other developers

[bronze echo]

I've been personally outsourced 3 times in my career (US) so, I'm obviously biased, but I would suggest that the US private job market is highly competitive and not at all adverse to just shipping your job somewhere cheaper i.e. corporation-friendly and not worker-friendly -- just my personal experience

[boreal current]

Out of curiosity, how likely is it for self-taught programmers to get hired in today's programming climate?

[umbral valley]

Harder than with degree but not impossible

Except in some industries like US govt work where degree is almost always required. I haven’t seen a job where it was negotiable there, but they may exist.

[boreal current]

I see. I guess I will stay in school then, or start applying while in school.

Thank you

[umbral valley]

It’s certainly doable to get a job without a degree but schools give you a verifiable record of some semblance of knowledge / will to work and the ability to heavily network.

Both of those being something that’s much harder when taking the self taught route, with the networking being arguable to most important aspect.

[boreal current]

Yeah that makes sense. I'm running out of benefits on my Post 9/11 GI Bill, so i won't be able to achieve a Bachelors Degree in CS, that's kinda why i'm asking how possible is it. I'll keep uploading to my GitHub and going to school.

[hollow mantle]

It's not impossible, it just takes a lot of work and dedication

[umbral valley]

Yeah. It’s just hard to get noticed because recruiters and hiring managers just don’t have time to look at all the portfolios of the X applicants

[hollow mantle]

tbh you almost have to freelance if you want to earn money without a lot of professional expereince

[umbral valley]

So without a degree, at least while getting the first job or 2, it’s like, why look at you instead of the rest. But it’s still possible. There are many people that’ve done it

[hollow mantle]

Otherwise unpaid internships are the next viable option

[umbral valley]

Yeah. That kinda has to be step 1 as sucky as it is, without just being extraordinarily lucky

[hollow mantle]

Exactly. I was not expecting all the extra shit that comes with freelancing

[umbral valley]

Freelancing has its down sides too because it’s so competitive with wages. Its like a race to the bottom as time goes on. Real hard to compete with India

[boreal current]

I just applied to an intern position yesterday, saying i'd do it for free. I'll do any internship for free if it gets my foot in the door! lol

[real python]

@umbral valley pretty much any US government job listing I've seen allows for relevant work experience to be substituted for a degree

[umbral valley]

That hasn’t been the case by me

But again, I haven’t seen them all. I just have seen it be a pretty hard requirement at the places I’ve looked

[boreal current]

It's usually several years of work experience from what i've seen in job postings in CA, as a substitute for not having a degree.

[umbral valley]

Another thing to look for to get your foot in the door too, nocando, are test engineer positions

[real python]

The wording here, for example, is pretty much boilerplate https://www2.usgs.gov/humancapital/sw/quals/1313.html. Plus you get points (literally) for being a veteran

[boreal current]

Is there a website to go on for these internships/test engineer positions? Or is it all through networking? I've been looking for stuff on Craigslist jobs

[umbral valley]

Indeed is normally where I look

[real python]

https://www.usajobs.gov

[umbral valley]

But Geebo, Usajobs, the SO job board are all used some too

[boreal current]

That's what I figured, wasn't sure if that's a place for internships as well.

[umbral valley]

Geebo seems to be pretty new though. I’ve only seen Curse/Twitch and a couple other companies use it

[real python]

I believe government jobs are required to use usajobs for any competitive hiring action

But a lot of work is also contracted

I would also enquire with whoever is helping you with your retirement, there are huge networks for veteran employment

[umbral valley]

There’s another job board for Vue developers too but I can’t remember what it’s called. Not sure how popular it is. Indeed, SO, and Usajobs should cover 95% of positions though

On an unrelated note though, getting a job to sponsor a security clearance seems to be impossible right now.

[vapid jay]

Is it realistic for someone to become a professional software developer without getting a college education?

[unreal linden]

yes it is, i'm almost never even asked about my education in interviews

and there are staff here who have done it

[keen lance]

certainly possible

all the resources are at your disposal and most are freely available

you can teach yourself everything from the theory of computation, to algorithms, to operating systems

just need passion and perseverance and you're good to go

[vapid jay]

If you were to hand out a simplified path (not easy, but short list) for advice to someone completely new to the world of programming, what would it be?

[keen lance]

is the goal to get a job as soon as possible?

[unreal linden]

learn a programming language, start building things and putting it on your github. Learn common tools used in the industry relevant to the kind of programming you want to do, for example, if you wanted to go into backend, learn web frameworks, databases, containerization, linux adminstration stuff, etc

[vapid jay]

No, I have time. I am currently in management at a food manufacturing plant. Compensation, time-off, and benefits are all great... but I don't find the work meaningful and would like to work in something that actually interests me.

@unreal linden Thank you!!

[unreal linden]

👍🏻

[vapid jay]

What is github?

[unreal linden]

it's a site that uses something called git for software versioning. For now you can just think of it as a place to host your code in order to share it with others, but it's much more than that

[vapid jay]

Oh, okay! Makes sense, thank you again!

[unreal linden]

np

[umbral valley]

@vapid jay read up right above where you first asked too. We were just talking about it

But the short of it is, getting a job without a degree is possible but quite hard and requires a bit of luck to get the first couple jobs. Taking an unpaid internship is pretty useful as sucky as it is, and networking at hackathons / conferences is the most valuable thing you can do

[vapid jay]

Do you think something like a coding bootcamp is a viable alternative to a traditional degree?

[umbral valley]

They can be, but keep in mind there is no governing body / certification board for boot camps like what exists for universities and their accreditation. So there’s not really a trusted 3rd party saying this one is good, this one is not because of x y and z

[vapid jay]

Okay, yeah. That makes sense.

[umbral valley]

So it kinda runs into the issue of the hiring manager seeing the value of your particular boot camp.

And your ability to sell it

[vapid jay]

Right, I can see that, for sure.

I'm not positive about what route I will take just yet, but I appreciate your input on the subject. Helped me think about it from a different perspective.

[umbral valley]

Right. It’s for sure possible to get jobs without a degree, don’t take what I said as it being impossible. It’s just harder. Many people turn to freelancing without a degree too

[hollow mantle]

^

Can confirm

[light grotto]

how would you recommend I set up a portfolio style website? (I'm looking for a machine learning job)

there are two parts to this question:

1. do you know any cool examples?

2. how do I set it up, layout and demos are imporant here. Does it make sense to provide life demos or is that overkill?

[umbral valley]

If it’s not for a full stack position a GitHub pages might be enough

[solar crow]

hey, i just started learning Python

i would like to know whether a job to automate stuff with python exist

[real python]

That's pretty much all of them, really

[solar crow]

Really?

Even data science?

[real python]

I guess it kinda depends on what you mean by "automate stuff" since that's generally what programming is

[solar crow]

Yeah, i guess my question doens't make much sense

if it's not uncomfortable, can you tell me in which area do you work in?

I'm having trouble deciding what to work on

[fallen fulcrum]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone has some advice on how to transition to some kind of developer job.
I'm working in a fintech company, recently got a masters in financial economics, and right now I am building a program in python to automate many tasks for my team. My work involves using some stuff like linux, ssh, aws and sql also.
Problem is, when I look at other job requirements, it doesnt look like I meet them.

[rare sand]

I was in a similar situation some years ago. it wasn't that easy to find a full-time dev job, but I did eventually manage.

some employers don't really care if you meet the requirements if you go there and have a solid interview, if you can show an active GitHub profile, or if you do really well on the technical tests they might have for you

and if you can do all of the above, I think quite a few employers might be interested.

if you can get the interviews in the first place, of course.

so, to give some actual advice? build a nice linkedin and a nice github, and apply to everything. hope you get an interview with a place that values passion and actual ability over formal qualifications. that's how you get there.

it won't be google, but there might be something. once you get your foot in the door, it'll be much easier the next time.

[fallen fulcrum]

Thanks for the response!
I suppose will have to somehow come up with the time and way of creating something similar to what I do for my job for GitHub.

[rare sand]

either that, or start contributing to open source

that looks great

and it can be highly rewarding and fun.

if you find the right projects.

we have quite a few open source projects here at python discord, which you can find at https://github.com/python-discord/, but there's tons of great projects out there looking for contributors of any skill level

[frigid lintel]

hey here, I am an french engineer student and I have been using extensivly python for the last 2+ years
Right now, I'm in Quebec for a semester, and want to make some money as a freelance dev

I can learn fast and work on a really wide range of task

I did some data preprocessing (pandas) + processing (tensorflow) for an internship
A blockchain from scratch

Now working on a symbolic computation engine similar to wolfram alpha

I'm really into data sciences, but I'm clueless about what (tools + potential experience) customers are ready to pay for

[long tiger]

I'd be interested to know what people are after nowadays too

[keen lance]

I'm getting a general feeling that they're after javascript

[frigid lintel]

well, in conclusion, when i asked my teacher (about a month ago), they told me that scikit learn was probably the best option for all of that

so

i am learning how to properly use the lib

i did code myself a lot of the model it presents

but for the sake of being pro, go scikitlearn

[umbral valley]

Sklearn / Keras / Tf / PyTorch all have uses in various ML & DS applications. Numpy is kind of invaluable too, I’d say.

[primal wasp]

i've reading the last messages (200+) and thinking... why people don't talk/try/learn about their soft/social skills? to work as a developer you need deal with people, in some positions way more than other ones, tho in the end being "good at your soft skills" is "needed" as much being a "good tech guy". Well food for thought

[vapid jay]

@primal wasp people tend to be emotional, insecure and often don't take criticism well.

[primal wasp]

hum... i agree, also to add note, IMHO i'm starting to see that people focus on this mentality that "i need to be really good technically to get the job wanted/needed" and forget to working in other areas, like being a social/soft skillful person, or either acquire a health life style to help on the journey the person seeks.

[minor helm]

A lot of jobs also want to hire a decent person, not just a qualification. I've had to turn people down because theyve had all of the skills, but are just totally not going to fit with the team in any way whatsoever. Instead going for the person who was missing a few ideal qualifications, but was easily fixed with a few weeks in the job.

Sorry, didnt update the chat properly. That was relevant to earlier when people were talking about interviews and bootcamps etc etc

My bad

[wanton holly]

still, good info. 👌

[hollow mantle]

Really a good life skill in general. It's impossible for a recruiter to know your exact skillset right off the bat, but they're expected to hire with that knowledge.

There was an interesting study that I mentioned here previously, which correlates being socially adept with being a capable person. Even if you are an all-star programmer, you could be seen as inadequate if you lack the social skills to articulate your ability

[karmic spear]

Most of the companies I know would rather go for a good person which they can educate during the work process, than for a rock-star asshole.
I would say that my feeling is that currently social/hard skills correlation is not 50/50 but something like 60/40. But this is super subjective opinion, it might be that I only talk to people from that kind of companies...

[umbral valley]

If you include networking as a part of social skills it could probably even go as high as 80/20

[versed dawn]

Do I need excel skills for data science Jobs?

[vapid jay]

i mean, how hard is it to learn excel though? lol

install it and toy around with it a bit.. done.

[umbral valley]

Excel is never a hard thing to know because of can always find a use for it I’d say. Especially as you go up the ladder and have meetings / more high level conversations. But not an expert level just like how to manipulate the data for pretty graphs

[versed dawn]

Ok cool. I just wanted to know if I need to be an excel pro to get in the door.

[icy berry]

I would say, becoming an excel expert is way harder then many other IT related skills.

it is easy to become a user and power user, but to take it to the last level, that takes dedication

[umbral valley]

Yeah for sure, but becoming a power user is generally all youd ever need IMO

in a large majority of cases

[deep portal]

excel is as advanced as you want it to be

[boreal current]

i'm not really finding any internships near me but what I did find is a part time job as an instructor teaching kids ages 8-15 Python, HTML5 and JavaScript. It's extremely close as well. For those in the Professional industry if you saw that on my resume would it be ignored or would that be to a small extent "experience"

the program is called "Hackingtons" with a few schools around Northern California

[lost geode]

@boreal current it will show that you are willing to put in work for love of coding

it will weigh in your favor

but it will not put you above people with actual experience

[boreal current]

@lost geode makes sense. i figured anything outside of going to school and uploading to my GitHub consistently would help!

[umbral valley]

It’s not like software engineering experience but it’s definitely a positive

It’s similar to my space camp position on my resume. Always a high point in interviews

[lost geode]

I'd file it up there with giving a talk to a meetup

[boreal current]

Still internship are hunting. Some are weird, they don't require any language experience but have a Mon - Fri 8-5 schedule. Leaves zero time for school.

[umbral valley]

Lot of times there’s also summer internship opportunities but they won’t open applications until fall

[boreal current]

Yeah i'm waiting to submit an app for a Summer Internship with NVidia and Twitter.

[umbral valley]

But it’s also kind of a weird time to be internship hunting. Majority likely closed for the spring semester, should see fall ones open in the next month or two

[boreal current]

Gotcha. My time for school is running out soonish - so it's sped up everything else i have to do try and get hired before benefits run out. I believe i've spoke to you before about it actually. Last week i believe.

[umbral valley]

On the comment about the teaching kids python program though - I did something similar in the past and it was fun. If you have the option to and you like people, it’s a cool job to have.

[boreal current]

Sweet! i sent my app and required GitHub link this morning. Should be fun, and a little money on the side never hurts.

[vapid jay]

I am in high school and I want to go into python development with AI, machine learning, software development, or database structure. What would be the best course of action as of right now me being younger to do other than just learn the language. Should I try freelance? Or should I see if I could be an intern at some software development company?

[grim urchin]

Learn math. Lots and lots of math

[vapid jay]

Little more specific? Like algebra? Geometry? Trig?

[grim urchin]

All of those, they're all useful. As well as stats

[vapid jay]

Do you think it would be useful to have a minor in stats in college? Or just take highschool classes

[grim urchin]

I don't want to sound like a dick, but high school isn't really gonna teach you much math. An intro level math / engineering / etc math class will require knowing how to deal with multi-variable integrals and things like that

[vapid jay]

Yea i get that

[grim urchin]

But definitely take stats and whatever else you can, but try to understand what you're doing. IMO, math is the most useful thing anyone can study, but for things like AI, machine learning, etc?

[vapid jay]

Ok thank you

[real python]

That's not particularly good advice. AP math courses will generally prepare you well for your Freshman level math courses and, if you do well on the exam, opt you out of those courses so you can get to higher level courses sooner.

There are also AP programming courses

[grim urchin]

Don't high ranked schools ignore AP stuff?

I'm pretty sure you have to take calc at MIT even if you took AP calc in highschool

I don't know about other schools

[real python]

http://uaap.mit.edu/first-year-mit/first-year-academics/incomingcredit/previous-study/ap-and-transfer-credit-advanced-placement

[grim urchin]

(I have no idea what that score stuff means, I finished high school nearly two decades ago :'( )

[real python]

AB calc stops before infinite series, BC stops before multivariable

At least it did 14 years ago

[elfin phoenix]

Still about right.

[umbral valley]

Score of 5 is like an A on the exam more or less

Also @vapid jay , ML specifically has a focus on linear algebra and statistics. Though for a large part of it, they’re fairly abstracted behind the framework you’re using so it’s very useful to know to really understand what’s happening, but from podcasts ive listened to with people from industry a company is only going to hire 1 or 2 people that need that kind of knowledge. For the rest of a ML team, it’s not as important to have the big math background.

With that being said, ML is a very competitive field at the moment with kind of a de facto requirement of a masters degree or tons of years of experience. It’s possible without, but much much harder.

[dark siren]

Can we go far with only python ? I mean, I've already saw some statistics but I don't know for what python is really useful, I mean It can't be as useful as other languages like C++ or C which can make everything that python can do. I'm I right ?

(I'm just 14 years old and I just have basic understanding of programming, I never did real "projects", but I have a lot of ideas that are more or less complex. Since I really love programming, I want to do it as a profession, any advice ? )

[umbral valley]

Python has applications in a bunch of areas that other languages aren’t as applicable in, web dev, ML, and robotics, to name a few. It’s also quite used in the science community as people move off of matlab. So you can go far, but it’s not the right tool for every job.

What python is bad at is enterprise grade work, performance important applications, and the like. Which compromises the majority of businesses. This is where your C, C++, Java, and C# tend to come in.

So it’s not really that python is worse than others. It just has a smaller pool of things it’s being used for

[dark siren]

I see 🤔

[lost geode]

multiprossessing and multithreading in Python aren't as dynamic and easy as with something like J2EE

but even if you are running enterprise level volume, then it doens't mean that you can't use python, you just won't implement it in the same way that you would J2EE

many other language (outside of Java) scale better with something cloud native for auto scaling

Java just has the ability to do scaling with threadpools that are tied to various resources and scaling at the thread level better than some languages can achieve with application spin up style scaling

[dark siren]

I don't know anything about Java
I just have the basic knowledge of python3, Javascript and C++

[lost geode]

If you know C++, python, and JS then you can pickup java pretty easily (at least the core stuff)

J2EE includes spring configuration and inversion of control stuff

[hollow mantle]

If you know C++ pretty well, you'll be set for most OOP languages

[umbral valley]

Yeah. Honestly not even knowing a language, If you’re familiar with the design patterns you can do any OOP language too

@hollow mantle what’s the freelance website you use

[hollow mantle]

UpWork

Apparently they favor the clients during disputes though

[lost geode]

I honestly just started writing python one day and fought the errors that happened

I didn't read a book

I just stepped into it from java

[hollow mantle]

tbh I haven't read a book on python either. I went throught the CodeAcademy course, then worked my way through codewars problems

@umbral valley Freelancer.com is another one I've heard about

I haven't had any bad experiences with UpWork, just what people have told me

[umbral valley]

Kk ty

[thick abyss]

do you guys read everything in a job post or just glide through the requirements and copy-paste a general job application?

[lost geode]

@thick abyss it depends on how desperate I am for a job

if I'm already employed then I read everything

if I'm unemployed then i jsut submit to everything

[thick abyss]

wow @lost geode thanks a lot

because i inject tripwires in my job posts

lol

applications that don't follow this rule get automatically deleted, and i wasn't really sure that was the right call

[lost geode]

that seems absolutely stupid

I'm not gonna lie

So you would completely throw out a highly qualified applicant because of that?

@thick abyss

[thick abyss]

i'm not sure if it's smart at the same time i'm not sure if it's stupid

don't have enough data to make judgements

so what i'll do is probably split test it, 2 different job posts with and without a tripwire with different application processing

[lost geode]

I would definitely give priority to anyone that did it, but not disregard ones that don't

[thick abyss]

and then probably judge this based on the applicants we have, are we wasting too much time with unqulified peeps

or ye i can just have 1 post and mark the ones that did it and judge its efficiency based on their interviews

[lost geode]

that reading does nothing to speak to a person's ability as a developer

[thick abyss]

i used to skip things too

i would be asking for change now if i wasn't hired :D

[lost geode]

personality in the process can help, but I wouldn't use that as a requirement

[thick abyss]

definitely a good point

[lost geode]

recruiters could help you alot with finding better qualified applicants

recruiters want to submit the best applicant so that they can get the referral

[thick abyss]

yeah i think that's what i'll do eventually just need to offload things off my plate to focus on working 'on' the business not 'in' the business

told my team to stop deleting job applications

• but why?

because python4fun said so

• py4what?

[lost geode]

do as you please, I just personally think that it's a silly criteria

you could just as easily delete every application assigned an id not divisible by 3

[thick abyss]

lmao

that's what a manager said once, "if i see too many resumes on my desk" i just shuffle them and split them in half

throw the first half in the trash

[lost geode]

I would be of the school of thought that spending time to read the details of the applicants and categorizing them could be more helpful

if you have 5 languages/tools that are important then I would sort them by the number that they claim familiarity with

if you have a dozen with 4 or more then start there

that being said, I've not ever been a hiring manager in this industry

all of my hiring was in automotive maintenance

[thick abyss]

the sort is actually genius i'll try it out :D

[rare sand]

yeah that's a terrible idea Eslam. imo you're throwing away some of your potentially best applicants. people who already have a comfortable job but just casually ship off an application to jobs where they kinda like the stack might not bother reading the whole thing, because it's not that important to them whether they get it or not. people who are desperate or who are new to the industry on the other hand might read every line five times to maximize their chances. personally I'd probably rather hire from the former pool.

as a guy with a comfortable job who occasionally applies to stuff just to see if I can get it or what it might pay, I definitely do not study the job posts that carefully, but when I was unemployed I studied the fuck outta them.

which is like the opposite of what Py4f just said so I guess it differs from person to person.

if I was really unhappy in my current job I might read postings more carefully. but I'm not. and the best programmers out there are probably the ones who are already employed.

@thick abyss

[thick abyss]

that makes a shit ton of sense

so i'll just interview and hire normally regardless if they pass this rule but just keep it out there for the sake of data colletion

[cosmic hamlet]

Got to do an online test for a job tomorrow. Hate job hunting.

[rare sand]

@thick abyss your tripwire might still be an interesting datapoint, might give a slight indication of, you know, how interested the candidate is. and sometimes that's a positive thing, but deleting applications is madness.

so yeah, keep it in but interview everyone sounds good

[lost geode]

I've had interviews that required a take home programming thing that took a few days

that's a good way to know how serious a person is

[vapid jay]

i used to be a hiring manager, usually getting hired is mostly luck

[thick abyss]

scary but true, i try to be fair, optimize for people that are efficient but also compatible with the team, essentially optimizing for everyone's happiness and mental sanity at work xD

[vapid jay]

lol one time i just accidentally spilled water all over like 30 resumes that i was considering for a position

[umbral valley]

there you go, that's what we call a Luck sort

[vapid jay]

thats not a luck sort

most hiring managers just throw out random resumes (including me) because there are just too many

[bronze echo]

so if its mostly luck should i not bother thanking my manager for giving me the opportunity to work at some place 🤔

[vapid jay]

So what exactly you guys talk about here

🤔

[wind mica]

This is a topic channel for discussion about careers in Python development.

[vapid jay]

Nice bruh

[grizzled burrow]

can i ask my stupid questions here about python career?

[rare sand]

yes

stupid or not stupid doesn't matter. we were all new once.

[grizzled burrow]

i finished forestry department before years and now i am engaged with programming , because i used in my university programming languages like vb, c++, python. I am using python for 3 years.. The little problem that i have is , that i like so much the programming, its a hobby for me and this makes me happy, i don't know why.. My question is, if i want to see it more professional , lets say to find a job on that. What needs to do ? Is this possible? Is enough that i am using python, c#, vb? Thanks!

Also, i want to go in seminars that university teachers do and give "certificate" for the hours that u watched. is it worth ?

[karmic spear]

@vapid jay so what is the reason you want to get CS degree anyways? shodn't you be looking into management instead?

[vapid jay]

Well, I'm a program manager for a small company (25 million in revenue). We specialize in medical devices. I'm about as high as I can climb here without having an officer title.

I could switch jobs. However, I live 5 minutes from my work and the money is great.

The problem is I'm not challenged in what I do anymore and I'm beginning to lose that spark.

[karmic spear]

have you considered switching the company instead?

thing is

[vapid jay]

I've considered it. It's just tough to beat.

[karmic spear]

as a developer at some point you would have to decide if you want to go for management or to architect

since you most likely don't want be a developer at 40-50

there are some, but that is a hard thing

[vapid jay]

Ok, that makes sense.

[karmic spear]

you would need to keep it always up with the new technologies

and that is getting harder and harder over the years

[vapid jay]

I think you're sort of reaffirming my suspicions .

[glossy acorn]

i'm studying IT in college right now

[vapid jay]

It would be tough to make the transition now to a completely different career at 29 while having all your experience in a completely different industry.

And keep a comparable salary.

[glossy acorn]

how big of a meme is buisness intelligence?

[vapid jay]

I don't want to dump thousands into school only to take a pay cut of 10-20k a year.

[karmic spear]

idk, but usually manager and developer salaries are not that different, but yes most likely you would have to decrease your salary for the first few years

but again it probably also depends on the country

[vapid jay]

I'm from the US in Maryland.

[karmic spear]

it's not like I'm saying you should not do it. If you feel it's yours, you should try it why not, just wanted to make you aware of the risks

I got about 10years as a developer and currently in my transition phase to the management.

so I was a bit surpised to see someone willing to do the opposite

[vapid jay]

Have you managed people before

?

[karmic spear]

yeah and I do it for last few years

like combining both at the moment

but rather just 1 team of 4-6 devs

[vapid jay]

Makes sense...

I don't mind being in a management role one way or another. I have a team of about 12 with 2 running projects and its awful.

Some days I wish I was just someone taking a post it from the kanban board

[karmic spear]

is that hard to get a to a similar position that you currently have in your city? I mean you could give it a shot if the worst case it won't take you much time to switch back to the PM

because if you have mortgage and kinds the last thing you want to do is to have no job for a long period of time, and AFAIK there is no much of social protection in the US

[olive yarrow]

@digital socket i was pretty lucky at my age to get this job. its a full stack dev job for python and react.js but my mom has been friends with the COO for a long time so I kind of had some bias

but ive only been writing python for about 6-7 months

before that i was an iOS developer

[digital socket]

i see

so you had a programming knowlege before python

[vapid jay]

I appreciate the advice @karmic spear .

[olive yarrow]

also i havent been in school or work for 9 months so ive had a lot of time to work on my skills

@digital socket you could say that but i only made jailbreak tweaks which didnt take much knowledge of Obj C

on top of that

its a totally different type of language and syntax of coding

[digital socket]

oh i see

ok

[olive yarrow]

also GitHub!

if you post your project on there

and can show you have the skills

youll have a much better chance then a blind application

at least then the people hiring you can see what projects youve worked on, what level of skill it took to make them, and your general knowledge of programming @digital socket

[digital socket]

yeah i have seen it mentioned before
i mean about github or in general some kind of project that you could attach to your resume

[olive yarrow]

yeah it helps a lot to have some projects youve contributed to or made that are popular as well

shows other people in the community find use in it

so stars, forks, and watchers all contribute to that as well

[digital socket]

ok tyvm @olive yarrow
im off back to learning & testing 🙂

[olive yarrow]

good luck! if you need any help there are more than plenty of helpers in here @digital socket

[vapid jay]

just took a test for an internship

I guess my expectations played me again

I was hoping that the test was gonna require an actual coding skills that I possess

and sure I was surprised as hell when they were asking about sorting algorithms and optimization of the code aka time efficiency and stuff like that

so I guess the theory did matter more than the practice experience at the end

[karmic bramble]

may I ask what kind of position or type of business it was?

[vapid jay]

I honestly couldn’t care less, it was internship for a software engineering related position

as far as I remember

Is knowing all the theory more important than actually knowing how to write a code and make a program accomplish any tasks u need

[karmic bramble]

well, it depends

to make a simple website, you don't need much algorithm or complexity theory

[obsidian acorn]

just finished last interview, waiting to here what they say

[vapid jay]

I would understand if precisely knowing the sorting algorithms was a requirement for an actual job but for internship really...

I bet most of the folks who apply didn’t even know how to program

at all

[karmic bramble]

but if you're going to write business logic for systems that need to perform well, or design system architectures etc, stuff becomes more important

And I don't think they expect you to know all these things for an internship

They may just ask to see if you know something more advanced already, or to see how you react on a problem/question you don't immediately know the solution for

[umbral valley]

Theory is always more important than code tbh. I’ve had 5 interviews this week, and none of them were “how to do x in python” because that’s not important the question is almost always “here’s a scenario. What would you do to tackle it” or “how would you write this algorithm?”

[vapid jay]

they emailed me back giving a link to online source where I could gain the knowledge I was lacking, so I could email them once I’m done and have an actual interview, but after such initial test I am not even sure anymore

[umbral valley]

Because it can gauge how you approach problems. Which is the important part

[vapid jay]

@umbral valley makes sense

but why don’t they combine it

And let’s say

[umbral valley]

Because theory is language independent

[vapid jay]

Ask me to write a code for a task and make it in the most efficient way

I know

plus describe why this approach is the best

instead it felt like I was taking a college exam

I am also applying for another internship atm and I am in “new candidate” status

so I guess I must learn about sorting algorithms regardless if that will ever be used in my job experience

[umbral valley]

Well, you should have a general idea on data structures & algorithms yes, but sorting is just the most familiar problem with then

[vapid jay]

the question is still can't find the answer to is

do the interviews and tests for an internship propose the same questions as in interviews/tests for an actual job

or whats the difference

i was told to read the 800 pages book called "Cracking the Coding Interview, 6th Edition" by McDowell Gayle Laakmann, just to fill the knowledge gap regarding algorithms and other theoretical stuff like that

but is there a shortened book or idk an article that will explain those topics without 90% of that philosophical stuff

that is the book full of

[karmic spear]

I guess you just need to apply for jobs and go the the interviews, after few interviews you would feel what things you need to read about before going to the next one

[vapid jay]

i already know which things do i need to learn about

they told me everything already

i just dont get why is that important for a damn internship, the purpose of which is to teach you all of that stuff in action

[karmic spear]

well it's the same as with the university courses

there are pre-requirements

you need to know some basics in order to learn things

[vapid jay]

they are not asking for basics

[karmic spear]

so what is being asked that you don't consider as a base knowledge ?

[vapid jay]

i read plenty of stackexchange questions regarding "do programmers need to know how to perform different sorting algorithms" and everybody kept saying that majority of programmers don't

thing that confuses me is that the same questions about sorting algorithms are being asked at interview for a job

so i still do not understand what does differ interview for an internship from that

[karmic spear]

the reasons to ask about algorithms could very

but for the intern, that is pretty much the only way to check how smart he is

and how good he can learn things

there are not that many things that intern might know at the point when he applied to the job

[vapid jay]

so the guy with years of experience in writing a code can not apply for an internship? just because he doesn't know or never needed the math knowledge before?

it takes dozens of times more time to actually get the hang of writing a code and we are talking years here, than just cram the theory about math algorithms

[karmic spear]

if you have years of experience why would you apply for internship over an actual position?

[vapid jay]

i was working for myself along with few other adult folks in a very specific sector related to selling where knowing how to code was 50% of the job, but i am lacking an actual job experience for an IT company , thus i decided to apply for an internship

i can't even count how many times was i told that interviewers care about your programming skills, well i guess it was a lie and a person who's spent 1 week or 2 on reading "what do you need to know for interview" has a better chances at succeeding, even if he just learned how to code

[karmic spear]

how would you define programming skills?

[vapid jay]

okay lets replace "programming" with "coding"

alright

yeah, programming does include thinking about different approaches to resolve the problem, based on time efficiency, memory usage, the design of the code and etc, but by "coding" i mean just pure coding which takes more time to get good at than "math" side of the "programming"

[karmic spear]

erm, if you put efficiency and design into the programming part

what is coding then?

knowledge of a standart library and the language itself?

this is the last thing to be asked on the interview, since it takes no more than a month or two to get into a new language if you know all the programming concepts.
language is a tool and only a tool.

[vapid jay]

as i said

years of coding experience, and by that i sure don't mean just standard libraries, but as an example the thousands of stack overflow questions, you've checked throughout your multi years experience

which does show how much time you've put into the certain language

so unlike that math related stuff, it is not the thing you can learn in a month

we got off the topic here already, so whatever, i guess i must learn that stuff despite my common sense

[vapid jay]

Is there a good legal way to freelance as a 15 (16 in 8 days) years old in the Netherlands? The CS teacher at my high school told me about UpWork, but that's apparently 18+.

[dusky onyx]

In the Netherlands there's no good way to freelance, especially considering education (note: I've been in the same situation)
Your best option is to find people on e.g. discord that want to hire someone or to be part of an organization to work on projects. Freelance websites usually pay for the lowest price and the smallest time, which is for most students just not doable.

[vapid jay]

@dusky onyx: What do you mean with 'especially considering education'?

[dusky onyx]

School makes you unable to work a full day, giving you a disadvantage over people who do this for a living. As they will have more time on their hands they can finish faster and get picked.

Sure you can work on the weekends, but nobody is going to order something on the weekends because it's their weekend too.

[vapid jay]

And where could I find someone that might want to hire me?

And would e.g. starting an own business that makes some random software with a subscription be a good idea?

@dusky onyx

[dusky onyx]

You could, but make sure there's people actually interested in it. I've been writing code for about 8 years now, but finding someone willing to pay is quite challenging.

[obsidian goblet]

Hello, anyone works (or worked) in test-bedding development ? I just got an interview, I've seen what a typical day can look like and I'm scared that it might get repetitive really quickly

[vapid jay]

True

[primal wasp]

you are going to test xD, so be prepared to do a lot of "robotic" work

[obsidian acorn]

@obsidian goblet consider looking into how to do automatic, class base, assert base testing

that way, once you start looking at the things you have to test, you can make it an easy work, where you don't have to do much, but chill and wait for testing to be done