took a week and a half to create it with a pretty basic GUI but it’s not perfect. If I actually had to ship it I would need to restart from scratch since I’ve figured out more efficient ways to do some steps. including training other employees and such id probably need another 4-8 weeks
#career-advice
shrewd kelp
rare sand
okay, so
vapid jay
if you have performance reviews / self reviews thats your opportunity to talk about it
imo you were hired to do things like what you did
if its above what was expected of you then your bonuses/raises will (should) reflect that
but a month into the job is still showing what youre capable of
rare sand
At one place where I worked IT, I was revered for doing this kind of thing. I was allowed to spend more and more time on it, and eventually promoted and given raises. At another place (an ISP), I did the same thing, and was repremanded for not doing my job. They demanded I cut that shit out and reminded me that I wasn't a developer.
vapid jay
lmao
rare sand
I think if this tool is useful, you should bring it to a boss and ask if they'd be willing to let you spend more time on it.
the 4-8 weeks you mentioned
I don't think you should ask for anything in return
but try instead to let this help change your job description
once you finish this, find something else to automate. keep rolling. if they're happy with you and you're solving problems, it'll be in its place to ask for a differnet job title and salary in a while
maybe a year?
when you've been doing this kind of thing for a while
and everyone sees how useful it is
vapid jay
i agree with that
rare sand
make yourself the automation guy. make sure everyone knows exactlty how useful that is to them. quantify it in terms of earnings, if you can
stuff like "This should save the company so and so many man-hours" is great.
shrewd kelp
That’s the thing haha - I’m actually not a software engineer. I’m an EE that I was tasked with something that most new employees do and I managed to find a more efficient way to do it automatically via python. I just happen to have experience programming - I don’t wanna dive deeper into this and end up escaping my own field.
shrewd kelp
Yeah for sure. First real job out of graduation and it’s kind of a tricky situation I feel like
shrewd kelp
Yeah. I’m enjoying it.
rare sand
I would just cash this in as goodwill, then
1 month into a new job is absolutely not the time to be asking for anything or making demands
you should be focused on making a good impression so you get to stay there and keep increasing your salary.
but this kind of a thing could probably help give them a killer first impression of you. 1 month at the job and you've already made an impact! that'll play well.
but it won't play well once you ask for something in return
shrewd kelp
Awesome. Yeah I could definitely see how that won’t come across nicely “without being a dick” hahaha. My boss is a great guy - I’ll just bank on the good will that something will come up in the performance review regarding this
rare sand
and obviously, if you need another 4-8 weeks to finish it, that should be time spent on the clock.
but if it's legitimately useful and you got a working prototype to show off I'm sure they'd let you do that. maybe there's overtime to be had if you have to do stuff to keep up with your day-to-day responsibilities too? I don't know.
rare sand
yeah
vapid jay
speaking of on the clock i am now late
rare sand
invest in goodwill
shrewd kelp
Good point.
rare sand
it's a good investment
vapid jay
shrewd kelp
I should get going too. Thanks @rare sand and @vapid jay for your help, I really appreciate it.
rare sand
no probs, good luck with it!
main thicket
@spiral bloom closer to software engineering. it's about building pipelines for managing data for exploration and deployment. if anything it's close ish to devops
@shrewd kelp psst, it's good to know tons of programming even if you dont want it to be the main part of your job. programming is pretty useful to EEs
What part of EE are you in?
ocean barn
brian: if youre bright and a high contributor the money follows you without chasing it this has been my experience. I never asked for anything and now I own a house
karmic spear
From the other side, there are developers which are not payed well just because they are either underestimate themself (which is a quite common thing to the devs) or they realise that they cost more, but just never asked for it because they shy.
So I think you still should be asking for a raise when you feel you deserve it, and of course you have to be ready to answer the question "Why?". If you won't have a proper answer or you employer does not feel this way, it might get a bit tricky and you might even want to leave the company since this will most likely ruin you relations.
So I would say you can and should ask for more, but only if you are sure.
shrewd kelp
@main thicket Energy industry
@karmic spear yeah this is true - I guess will need to think about it. Thanks for your input!
main thicket
Oh nvm, I was thinking more electronics, signal processing, comparch, control etc side of things. Not sure about power people
faint harbor
i'm not looking forward to tomorrow. technical test on site :/
vapid jay
@faint harbor internet access?
faint harbor
no it looks like it will be multiple guess
vapid jay
not to mention multiple choice gives absolutely no insight as to what your thought process was
faint harbor
I have... a very wide set of skills and to make use of them in a given job requires reimmersion into that tech stack
like
I can code python to a not horrible level
if the test had python I could answer questions
same for php
c# I've used it with unity
C++ i've written small games using SDL
but specifics for their field i'm not up to date on
like I know there will be C# asp.net questions but I don't know if it will be .net or .net core
I know there wont be html/css but no idea if they use any frameworoks
Its frustrating
The more I research this role the more I realise they are going to be using a microsoft stack :/
faint harbor
why are so many jobs asking for BI experience lately. its weird that its just started happening in the last few weeks locally
serene kindle
Why do software people say that they learn a lot on the job? Personally I feel like school teaches more valuable things. I get that 'what is considered valuable depends on my individual goal' but i worked as a web developer and I feel like that skill was useless compared to learning core CS in school
Maybe I am just different? But I can't get over it
main thicket
@serene kindle Part of it might be that you can go through a CS degree and still be absolutely useless at software dev while some practical experience means you learn how to build software immediately. Another could be that while CS school benefits you in indirect ways that arent visible and hence not appreciated. But in general a lot of what you learn in CS, you never use again and might even be abstract for you to even stumble across by accident
how often are you going to need heap sort in practice? or across what is and isnt a regular or context free grammar? or group theory? How often do you need to think about the theory involved with finite automata?
Personally, that is an education I absolutely value because I believe it helps you develop as a person/learner but also as a problem solver that is applicable in ways that arent always obvious. Not everyone shares the same view as me though
tbf i dont do CS and know nothing about finite automata, grammars, group theory or heap sort
rare sand
the kinds of things they learn on the job may not necessarily be "how to write code" either, but things like corporate workflows, how to work with specific stacks, how to work well in teams, how code reviews work, agile or scrum, what tools to use and how to best use them.
these things vary wildly between companies and wouldn't really be feasible to teach in a school setting
but are still critical skills to learn
there's more to being a dev than just writing good code.
it's also pretty typical to have learned stuff like that in school and then discover when you get a job that the stuff you learned isn't really applicable and that you have re-learn a lot of it. Often schools will teach the stuff that's battle hardened and proven to work, while startups will use the latest tech available and may be using far more progressive and modern tools than your school did, and the enterprise world might use outdated methods that the school doesn't teach anymore because they wrote the legacy code 15 years ago and still gotta maintain it
either way, you're gonna have to learn a whole lot of new stuff "on the job"
also, to paraphrase The Pragmatic Programmer (which is a great book and you should read it), a good developer should constantly invest in their knowledge portfolio to stay ahead of the game.
learning new languages, reading technical books, taking classes, getting involved in open source and user groups like this one...
if you're not willing to do that, you'll quickly end up left behind in some dead-end job.
indigo sleet
A startup opened recently near me actually, and I sure wish they were using the latest and greatest
it's all java, tomcat, spring, hibernate.. and scrum of course
karmic spear
and a monster in a dark corner which the call legacy and they would all say on the interview don't worry about it, we are getting rid of it
rare sand
yeah right :D
our legacy code is probably immortal. we've all had a go at it but nobody can make a dent.
oh how I wish I could kill it all
thorny hound
I just resigned from my first job after working there for 10 days. I have a couple of questions. It's be great if someone could help me get answers.
fluid matrix
@serene kindle Ask yourself the following question: Why do Big companies like Apple, IBM, and Google do not longer care about CS degree? (rhetorical question) #food_for_thoughts
@thorny hound why did you decided to resign by the way? Perhaps it will make more sense to tell the reason behind your decision before asking questions you want to ask
thorny hound
I can't say it was just one thing, but these are at the top.
- They hired me for embedded/hardware stuff, but they had no work for me. In the 10 days I was there, the only productive thing that I did was solder some stuff on to their old prototype.
- They were making some augmentation stuff for visually impaired people, but it didn't seem like they wanted to work on the tech at all (which barely did what they claimed it did).
- The guy who wrote the opencv code for detecting streets to help blind people navigate claimed that it was 55% accurate. He only tested that code on 8 images.
karmic spear
so what are your questions ?
mild zenith
Wow
fluid matrix
@thorny hound they had no work for me. In the 10 days I was there, the only productive thing that I did was solder some stuff on to their old prototype.
I think I get what you're trying to say; so did you feel like staying in this job wouldn't help you to grow as you would want to? is that correct?
But don't you think that if you were going to get paid anyway, it would have been advantageous for you to instead stay on the job and learn more programming during your free time?
then start applying to other places and only quit once you find your next job?
thorny hound
I did not feel like staying because I thought they were preying on desperate people, selling them a bad product.
I guess my question is if waiting would have made things better.
Like if I could have persuaded them to make a better product.
fluid matrix
@thorny hound I guess my question is if waiting would have made things better. Like if I could have persuaded them to make a better product. Well, now that you have already quit, I guess we will never know 😃
karmic spear
Well, what you could have done is you could stay there, and try to be the man to push forward the changes.
But I must say this is usually a hard and long road, and sometimes it's almost impossible to push changes in some companies.
So you could have get this experience which is also quite nice to have. But it really depends on where you are at the moment in your career and where you want to go
thorny hound
I am nowhere. I just started.
karmic spear
Building a dev process is also a thing you will need to learn in order to be a good software developer.
Ah, then I think it's fine. Just try to ask more questions on the next interviews, so you won't get into the same thing on your new place.
But TBH I think for the first job it's okay to have like a year of experience even in the bad company. You would still learn things there, and you will know which things to avoid on your next place.
thorny hound
Like what? "Do you have actual work for me, or are you just gonna waste my time"?
karmic spear
@thorny hound yeah, but you shouldn't ask it that straight. It's totally fine if you ask things like "what is your roadmap for the next 3-6 month". What responsibilities would I have? Could you give me few examples of tasks that were done by the team I join in?
So the interview is always for both sides, it's not only they suppose to check if you fit them. You should also ask questions to understand if they fit you.
thorny hound
I'll keep that in mind. Now that you've said it, it seems obvious that I should have done it before.
Would you stay in a company to gain xp even if you knew/thought they were doing something unethical?
karmic spear
I can't really answer it right now. It's different when you have experience, since it's companies are hunting for you, but not you is looking for something. So you have a space to pick what you want and what you like. In the end you know that you would need maximum 2-3 weeks to find a new place if you would be looking just for a job. But when you just start it's different and searching for a job is a challenge by itself and you might spent months on finding something.
fluid matrix
@thorny hound I guess my question is if waiting would have made things better. Like if I could have persuaded them to make a better product.I think most of the time people (sometimes myself included) don't realize that change will not always be made by the next person, sometimes we need to initiate the change that we wanna see.
It is said that time changes things, but in reality, you actually have to change them yourself.
Hence, as an individual into a community, it's important to remember change will not come if we wait for some other person or time. because sometimes we are the ones we've been waiting for, and the change that we seek.
thorny hound
That sounds like the opposite of everything that gilfoyle from silicon valley would say.
fluid matrix
@thorny hound Yeah, it does! and he will probably respond to you with something along the line of: "Roger that. Oh, I'm going to need a discord confirmation, so that our future overlords know that I chipped in positively. You know, once the AI revolution happens and robots absorb all data." 👽
main thicket
detect streets for the blind
test on 8 images, 55% accuracy
Jesus fucking Christ, that guy is going to kill someone
@thorny hound It sounds like a shit show of a place, good you left. It sounds like really interesting work but if no one gives a shit about it there, it's not worth it. Back to searching, yeah?
If the company's management is rotten, it's hard to cause any positive change. Best to keep searching for new opportunities
fluid matrix
@main thicket If the company's management is rotten, it's hard to cause any positive change.just as much as it's impossible to know if you didn't tried
main thicket
Management is the gate keeper to all change. If they're the ones with the problem, they most likely won't improve and have the ability to fire you if they pester you. There is no reason to try and fix the place yourself because:
It's too much effort
It's more likely than not impossible
You have 0 attachment to the place
It's not a romantic relationship that developed a fault which you want to fix, there's better opportunities out there that don't require you to break your back trying to fix everyone at a company you're at for 10 days for no reason
fluid matrix
romantic relationship lol you lost me on that part!
But on the serious note though, the point we might not be considering is the fact that every story has 3 sides: perspective A, perspective B and last but not least, the factual truth.
What if the company founder has good intentions but he just happens to not have realized yet that he hired the wrong people?
Since you were going to quit anyway, why not attempt to do something about it, since you have nothing to lose anyway.
the difference is, in the scenario where the company founder wasn't aware, you might be rewarded for contributing to the betterment of the company in such an early stage.
if that's not the case, well, you would have lost nothing by losing the job since you wanted to quit anyway.
it's called "killing two birds with one stone"
Critical thinking is not only useful in programming! it's useful in real life too.
tight marsh
It sounds like a shit show of a place
Does it? We have 1 side of the story based on 10 days of work from someone I assume was a junior developer (as this was Otanay's first job). I'm not saying you have be an industry veteran to smell a crap job but since there are, potentially, many first time devs here we should be careful about encouraging fast turnaround. If I see a job on someone's resume with 2 months or less experience, I will specifically focus on that job. That candidate should have a better reason than "it was too much effort" for leaving. And "the company sucked" is not it. 0 attachment or not, we're professionals.
thorny hound
You're right. Someone on the other side would have a completely different perspective.
I didn't leave because it was "too much effort". And this isn't going on my resume.
tight marsh
Just to be clear, Otanay, my comment wasn't directed at you. It's your career, you do whatever you like.
upbeat fiber
@thorny hound IMHO, you did right. For most people that read your experience they would say it was a "rushed" decision. however "Sometimes we make the wrong choices to get to the right place"
i had a really bad experience as a internship in one of the biggest Publicity company in the world, the only thing that i learned at the bottom is how to "deal with" some clients
runic hare
An experience is always an experience
thorny hound
Can't argue with that.
amber vessel
I need some help on accepting a small contracting job to do the following
"Create a digital business card with lead capture that interfaces with CRM"
upbeat fiber
which CRM?!
amber vessel
ZOHO
upbeat fiber
ohhh if were Salesforce... xD
amber vessel
that sounds doable right? I just made a web landing page that hooks into ZOHO's api?
upbeat fiber
go to a channel and pm me the one you chose
nocturne sluice
Hey boys, is python worth learning for an extra background for resumes? I am currently going to school for computer science and they have me learn mostly python and java.
vapid jay
When it comes to programing, no language is worthless, all of them will teach you something, because all of them have a "philosophy"
And when it comes to Python, I think it's really worth it since it's a language you use in pretty much any domains, ie it's not a specialized language
vapid jay
how often does a job only use one language really
i guess if youre a web developer and someone else handles the systems
+servers
green sinew
Even then
vapid jay
always worth knowing a wide variety of languages
vapid jay
otherwise you pigeonhole yourself
and even if its an unpopular or not widely used language you never know when youre going to get to a company and find a use for it
vapid jay
That's true, except in very specialized domains where only knowing THE language can be enough
green sinew
A good idea I heard was :
Be very fluent in 2 lanuages and know 20
zealous bramble
so many people get caught up in thinking "if i know languages x, y, and z, i'll be employable"
what people should be focusing on is developing clean software with good architecture and design
choose languages not because they are most popular, but because they are the best tool for the job
i guarantee you that if you went into an interview for a job using Java, and told them about a project you did in Python and told them why you chose python for that usecase, they won't give a shit if you know Java well or not
karmic spear
yeah that always sound good in theory, on practice most of the times what you get is, company homebrew framework for their own domain to solve their own problems which is written on language X
so even if you know that language Y fits better for the problem, you would still use X just because of your domain issues.
zealous bramble
well if you want to keep learning every language under the sun just so you can write the same projects in different languages then be my guest
karmic spear
well that is the thing, so both matters. You can either get knowledge in the domain e.g travel, transport, banking,etc or the languages java, python, php, etc
So say I have experience in travel using python, that won't be a problem for me to join say booking.com which is using perl for their projects. Just because I know the problems their are facing. As well as it won't be a problem for me to go for a company that is using python for a banking just because I know the language and it's frameworks.
zealous bramble
domain knowledge is separate from what i'm talking about
karmic spear
ah you said same projects, I thought projects of the same domain
zealous bramble
my point is that people's focus should be on learning abstract CS concepts over just learning a ton of languages
code design patterns, architectural design patterns
that stuff
karmic spear
exactly, language is a tool, in the worst case you would need few month to get up to the pace, but TBH most of the times you need just a few weeks.
zealous bramble
99% of hiring managers and interviewers would rather see a single, well designed project in one language vs 10 crappy projects in a bunch of different languages
karmic spear
ofcourse sometimes I feel my advantage over people who use python less than me, just because I know internals and known common mistakes, but again this happens sometimes. You still have common patterns and common principles of software development regardless the language.
fluid matrix
@nocturne sluice is python worth learning for an extra background for resumes? No matter what your career choices are, I think everyone would benefit from learning programming.
When studied correctly (emphasis in the word correctly), it teaches you critical thinking! Which is a very useful skill to cultivate whether in just life in general or in business as a professional no matter what your career field is.
Hell, I even think that computer programing should be introduced early on from grade school and change the old ways we still teach things like Math, Science, and Geometry.
gritty ivy
Looking through job listings, pretty much every internship I see wants someone in the process of getting a bachelors degree, is this something that most companies actually care about when looking at applicants? I plan on going to a community college and getting an associates degree in computer science , but I'm unsure of if I'll go past that
native monolith
they should make 3rd graders learn to to program fpgas
solemn valley
you mean build them
nocturne sluice
Thanks for the tips guys!
fluid matrix
@gritty ivy just apply anyway, if your Github is interesting enough and mostly line up with what they will need you for, you will land the interview in spite of not being in the process to getting a bachelor degree.
vapid jay
Hello everybody, im starting to learn python and i would like to know which career will await me when i learn it.
zealous bramble
Lol
fierce beacon
Well buddy you won't get a job if you only know python
If you wanna get a good job that gets you 70k+ yearly, you'll most likely need to know at least 5 programming languages, know each of them inside and out, and know how to do something with them when someone asks you to.
That's not even a bare minimum
vivid dock
Know just python ccould get you a job, but you most likely would have to specialize in something like machine learning or finance, or be damn good at it
But knowing more is always a plus
undone helm
or web dev
main thicket
See the earliest pin on this channel
You don't choose a carpenter because they know how to use certain brand of saws very well, you choose them because they can make good stuff
Personally, I know a lot of people who do just python in multiple industries. But it's really not hard to pick up Java or C# or JavaScript or something if you're an alright programmer. Focus on being able to paint well, not being able to understand acrylic paints well
green sinew
Do people here (In Britain) agree that you are underpayed compared to other countries for IT jobs?
Generally statistics back this up, but I don't know a job experience here first hand
main thicket
I've seen that UK underpays a lot of things 👀 Medicine, Engineering, Software are all underpayed
On top of that, Medicine is super overworked and Engineers are constantly confused with mechanics and electricians etc
slim island
software in most of the world is bimodal
there's a subpopulation that's paid <= average
and there's a population that's paid >> average
main thicket
even Google in the UK doesnt pay insane amounts
vapid jay
What @fierce beacon left out in his $70k == 5+ languages is that you can get a job easily that makes less than or around that if you know less languages and learn the others on the job
indigo sleet
when I was working for fexco, doing Clojure dev, I made around €650/wk
not sure how good that is though
vapid jay
pre or post tax?
main thicket
sounds like pre
vapid jay
I'm not in a development position right now but we do development anyway because it's sort of transitioning into a hybrid role
I know like..
PHP, some JS, some python
Python was learned on the job... but I don't think putting salary as a "youll never hit this without xyz" is that good of an idea
not at $70k at least
indigo sleet
that was post-tax
vapid jay
My salary is a little higher than some others because I’m in a high CoL area which makes US salaries harder to compare I think
Not bay area tier though
fierce beacon
I myself am only 15, my dream is to be a white hat for the government/tech security specialist, I know c++ and am teaching myself python.
How's my plan going
I hope to learn one programming language each year, with java, html, JavaScript, and ruby on the list.
And I'll make an effort to learn side features as i go
vapid jay
Wait you made a comment about making 70k+ and you’re 15?
Now I’m just confused
Can’t speak about what languages are needed/gonna be needed by the time you enter work force... what country
Im still fairly new to programming, learning python at the moment and going to uni next year. Im wondering though, are degrees often a requirement for jobs? From what i've seen online they arent that highly regarded anymore.
indigo sleet
They're always useful
pulsar flare
Lol Karimtheninja left
indigo sleet
¯_(ツ)_/¯
sacred bough
It occurs to me to ask whether programmers in the UK who writes underpayed as underpayed are really underpaid. Those same people may earn better elsewhere...
real python
I didn't realize we were on a grammer server
slim island
grammar*
real python
(that's the joke)
ocean barn
ha
fierce beacon
I just do my work on my career path @vapid jay
celest anvil
i feel the most ambitious I have ever
it’s a bummer in a way doin high school upgrades etc trying to overwrite your mistakes but kindof motivating because like
there’s always a way
fluid matrix
even Google in the UK doesnt pay insane amountsAll those big tech companies are in California/ San Francisco, what a lot of people leave out of the equation is the fact that the cost of living is freak'n expensive in Silicon Valley!
for all those big salaries that you see online, a huge part of it goes toward rent and utility bills.
taking that in consideration that's why they pay that much! when you do the math, the difference in salaries you are comparing to is not as big as you might think.
if you really want to benefit from it (assuming that you're freak'n good at what you do), get yourself a Silicon Valley dev job where you can work remotely! if for instance, you live in Houston Texas, houses in the upper middle class neighborhoods are way cheaper and the cost of living is not that crazy! then you will be "ballin"
zealous bramble
Most companies see right through that and offer you whatever the average salary of your area is.
That's if they even offer a full time remote position, which is pretty rare.
What a lot of people ignore is the lifestyle creep that comes with living in or near a tech city. Most people working these high paying jobs aren't driving cheap cars, wearing cheap clothes, or shopping wisely. They're buying expensive luxury brands, living in nice apartments on their own, buying expensive clothes, and eating out more often than not.
You really could afford a comfortable lifestyle in a tech city on $75k-80k/year if you budgeted and had some discipline.
fluid matrix
@zealous bramble Most companies see right through that and offer you whatever the average salary of your area iswith startups, if you're really good and can bring much value, they pay you normally as they would if you were a local! because they know that if they don't, somebody else will.
fluid matrix
@zealous bramble do a quick google search and see how much a simple 1 bedroom / 1 bathroom apartment cost to rent in Silicon Valley or in any secure area around San Fransico!
Lo and behold if you have a kid and you need a bigger place with at least 2 bedrooms plus the fact that the little dude should go to a good school nearby.
that $70k - $80k you're talking about won't seem that much.
heavy mantle
A one-person household is now considered to be low income if it earns $82,200
(in Silicon Valley), though up and coming tech hubs (Austin, Seattle, etc) arent that far off
fluid matrix
yeah, there you go
slim island
if you're not on at least 150k, there is no reason to be in the bay area
unless you specifically want to be there for other reasons, you're better off getting a lower paid job somewhere where living expenses aren't quite so insane
fluid matrix
if you're single and have no responsibilities (like having a kid), the way you can afford Silicon Valley is to rent just a room and split the expenses between roommates in the apartment.
in this scenario, you need to be smart, focus and willing to play the long game! your objective here should be just to work for a period of time for one of the prestigious tech companies and really freak'n putting the work in to go from junior to middle or from middle to sr developer! that will dress up your resume and open for you doors to quite high paying dev jobs in cities where the cost of living is quite modest.
slim island
you really don't need to sacrifice time living in a dorm in sv to get decent paying jobs
unless your dream is specifically to hit the top 1% of the dev ladder
just being good at a well paying field and working for a few years in any major city will eventually put you in the top 10% of all income earners
heavy mantle
The best career advice I have found is look into hiring a financial advisor sooner rather than later, use them to live within your means and properly budget/save/invest. Also accept that early in your career gaining experience means more than gaining salary. Staying an extra year to gain valuable (this being the important part) experience at only a 1% raise is better for career growth than a 10%/10K salary bump.
At the end of the day not limiting yourself to your salary can give you freedom to explore other paths in your career, by side stepping or even taking a paycut without worrying about taking on a financial burden.
I'm sure most people with 10-15 years under the belt here are not in the same positions that they started and probably had a chance to explore a new path at some point in their career
fluid matrix
@heavy mantle I agree with your view, however, for some of us here who have literally people who depend on us, it's important to know where to cut the fat and shorten your way to the higher corporate ladder! getting ahead in life does not necessarily have to take you long if you're willing to be smart about it and make the necessary sacrifice at the right time.
I will advise you to read the book titled Smartcuts (by Shane Snow)
heavy mantle
@fluid matrix I have a wife and 2 kids, which is exactly why my advice is phrased the way it is.
heavy mantle
the TL;DR is basically be financially smart and balance the value of experience gained with the value of salary gained. I'm confused on how what you said is any different than what I said (aside from a plug for a self-help book)
faint harbor
I landed a job yesterday 😄
😄
what with sam? This is #career-advice 😃
yeah, this is #career-advice. >.<
celest anvil
Can defense contractor’s software engineers publish unrelated side projects on their own time? I think I might be overestimating the restrictions
main thicket
Depends on the contract and what it says. You'll have to see exactly what it says regarding IP
In most contracts I've seen, they reserve rights if you work on it during company time or using company resources
But there are some dodgy contracts that attempt to take ALL IP rights
celest anvil
Oh wow
I also wonder if SWE jobs in defence in Canada are even existent on a reasonable magnitude
main thicket
should be, canada's defence sector isnt bad. perhaps not as extravagant as US's but yeah
I'd assume some of Boeing, Lockheed, etc would have RnD offices or something in Canada at the very least
Given they exist here in Australia
celest anvil
Interesting! 😃
main thicket
Out of curiosity, Is there any reason you're looking at the defence sector in particular? @celest anvil
celest anvil
From anecdotes online it seems to often have a better work life balance, job security, tax exemption(?)
main thicket
Icy icy. It's something I'd personally avoid. Security as soon as you've spent a few years there is nice yeah but there's a lot of bureaucracy and red tape and the work (usually) isnt as interesting. You can be delayed due to actual engineering that's a lot slower by nature in an industry is a lot slower in general.
celest anvil
Good input, thank you.
fluid matrix
@heavy mantle I'm confused on how what you said is any different than what I saidAs I said, I agreed with you, however, the difference between what you said and the other aspect that I was trying to add is the timeline!
it doesn't necessarily require you 10 - 15 years to accomplish the same thing as those who have been in the industry for that long.
heavy mantle
@fluid matrix go ahead and reread what I said because you completely missed the point of that paragraph.
fervent maple
hey guyz
i ve a confusion ....i don't know what to do in future
in the mid of this year i learned python and currently learning django and js..
i know alittle C++ , C
bt i don't know what to do (field)
i was creating bots i loved that (automation and stuff)
i enjoyed doing web scraping
currently i m learning web dev i m also enjoying that xD
ML is only thing i didn't like. when i tried
also i love gaming and have a plan to start learning game dev from 2019..
and in my country gamedev job is extremely hard to get
so what should i do ? because i ve to land somewhere
fluid matrix
Sounds like you need focus and structure!
Apply for an internship.
sweet citrus
So I am also applying to entry level software developer jobs/internships. My github profile has some python scripts on TicTacToe, OOP concepts, paper/scissor/rock game, a script that simulates a bank account, some swift projects, and a couple of C# projects from school. Wtf can I do to make sure I am making the right projects so that I can show I know how to (somewhat) develop software?
main thicket
Make stuff that's complicated or well-written or popular. Make stuff that's relevant to the job. Make stuff that's novel or has an "ooh aah" factor. All of those are something people notice
fervent maple
@fluid matrix that is the the problem in which field i should do internship xD
vague plover
Well, that's entirely depends on you and your skills.
fluid matrix
@fervent maple & @sweet citrus Go to indeed.com and do a search to find out in your geographical area what are the most in demand skills required for a python developer.
Learn them and build 2 to 3 projects demonstrating your knowledge of those skills and put them on your Github.
ABOUT THE QUALITY OF YOUR CODES:
cultivate the habit of writing idiomatic codes, stop mushing insignificant words in your codes like a rookie! nobody wants to work with a developer who writes codes that never make sense to the rest of the team.
Secondly, documents your codes explaining why you made some decisions the way you did.
vapid jay
Commenting code is actually quite tricky, many people don't get it and just write useless comments. I hate it when I see a comment explaining WHAT the code does and not WHY.
pulsar flare
@vapid jay Can you put an example of good commented code?
vapid jay
I think this article https://blog.codinghorror.com/code-tells-you-how-comments-tell-you-why/ is worth reading 😃
solemn valley
i am not sure if this actually qualifies as well documented and i am aware its not python but for its complexity ive found the code and especially the configuration options of grbl (https://github.com/gnea/grbl) to be extremly well documented
fluid matrix
@vapid jay I think this article https://blog.codinghorror.com/code-tells-you-how-comments-tell-you-why/ is worth reading💯
yeah, there you go
pulsar flare
top 9
So if you want to land a succesful carrer the best strategy proven seem to be to make deep neural networks to decensor JAVs
That will make you be almost as good as Alibaba, a 115 billion company at Python
pulsar flare
Oh God, we have the king here
vapid jay
wut
pulsar flare
is it in this server or did he left? @vapid jay
vapid jay
deeppomf#9515
pulsar flare
oh, he's here. @marble moth how many work offers have you received?
indigo sleet
@fervent maple This is the correct place to ask that question
karmic spear
internship is usually quite short
so you can try it in few different fields
also, if you would work as software engineer you would most likely change it few times during you career, so that is not a big deal to apply for something now and change it later.
icy berry
@fervent maple I do think it is hard to land a game-dev job anywhere.
a lot of game-devs i know have gone hard in with C++, myself I have been offered game-dev position unrelated to any language.
I think of programming as a skill and the language as a tool to do something.
if you know c++, c#, python and front end web dev like javascript, html and css you should have a solid toolkit for a lot of opportunities.
marble moth
@pulsar flare no work offers related to DeepCreamPy
pulsar flare
@marble moth Really? Wow, I would have expected at less a hundred (seriously)
marble moth
Porn research isn't mainstream
pulsar flare
I think that's not true. There's a lot of work on that. It's just not openly posted on work sites
marble moth
Porn research for deep learning isn't mainstream
pulsar flare
Would you like me to give you some references in private? I'm pretty sure they will hire you
marble moth
I prefer to talk with you privately.
narrow lake
How many people here have passed their Amazone Web Service Pro Certificate and what actually has changed for you since then?
realistically, are you receiving bigger job offers than before?
chilly patrol
Made this as recently saw many ppl talk about use 2D, 2.5D and 3D thing about dimension... so I made this... the first one, it's 2D dimension tuitorial, kinda a tutorial for ppl who lack the cognition of perspective
sturdy hearth
Hello?
rare sand
hi. :D
sturdy hearth
Do any of you lads have personal experience or know someone who changed careers to become a programmer?
karmic bramble
A coworker of mine has studied medicine before, for example.
Or a few were studying physics
sturdy hearth
Do you know how they transitioned into their first programming role?
karmic bramble
Not in detail, but some of them started programming as a hobby and got a job opportunity at some point
I think one e.g. did simulations or wrote some helper programs for their old job
and then moved more and more in that direction
faint harbor
@sturdy hearth over the last 20 years i've been a cashier, a shelf fillter, factory worker, mcdonalds crew etc.
2 years ago I started a degree in computing
monday I start a job as a web dev 😄
amber yoke
congratulation and have fun on this path
faint harbor
Thanks, this discord played its part 😄
I took part in the 3rd coding challenge and used it as an example of group work 😄
sturdy hearth
Good stuff @faint harbor
vapid jay
@faint harbor you gave me hope, and congrats!
fluid matrix
@sturdy hearth Do you know how they transitioned into their first programming role? Sounds like you don't think it could be possible for you.
Any specific reason why you have that doubt?
fluid matrix
sturdy hearth
@fluid matrix I don't have any doubt I could do it. I was looking at the approach for applying to the first job.
fluid matrix
have you considered applying for an internship in a good company in your city?
main thicket
@faint harbor Congratulations!
zealous bramble
Internships are not a viable way to gain experience in software engineering if you are not a student
You are better off with a boot camp or self study and applying for an entry or junior level position
I don't know of a single company that is offering internships to anyone who isn't an undergraduate or graduate student in computer science or related field
And it is really a stupid way to gain experience, as the barrier of entry for an internship is on par with that of an entry level position. If you aren't a student, focus on getting an entry level position.
faint harbor
@norb now that's another story. 250 applications over 6 months it took me to land this role. Beef up your portfolio before you start applying. That's the mistake I made
vapid jay
@faint harbor interesting story and congrats ! How old are you if you dont mind me asking ? I wanted to ask job recruiters here if any , if they would hire someone with no cs degree in their 30s
faint harbor
Im 41, to get a job without a degree, you would need a very strong portfolio on something like github
vapid jay
👍
lunar harness
@faint harbor Do you do backend development? What projects do you suggest I make to put on my portfolio?
earnest knot
@faint harbor It's really inspiring to hear you talk about successfully getting a job, since I am in a similar position.
My github has a few projects in it, but is still pretty weak
fluid matrix
@zealous bramble Internships are not a viable way to gain experience in software engineering if you are not a studentWhen you're good enough and a Github to show for it, not all of them requires you to be pursuing a 4-year undergraduate degree or a 2 years Master!
Here is another aspect that some of us here are overlooking
it's easier to land a job as an experienced developer than it is for a total beginner. entry level jobs in the software development industry are way more competitive than they were back in the days and many beginners now switching career are often fooled by outdated internet articles stating that getting a job as a software developer is easy.
For beginners who don't believe me, go ahead try to find an entry-level job without an interesting GitHub and minimum field experience, see how many of these jobs you are going to land.
When it comes to the hiring process, most CTO here would agree with me that an entry-level developer who has experience working within a team has quite a competitive advantage over the next one who has been just practicing tutorials by him/herself at home.
in life sometimes you have to see the bigger picture and be swift enough to play the long game.
for a total beginner, internship is easy to land than a jr dev job, the objective here is to get your ass 😃 in the professional field as fast as possible so you can get an earlier overview of how working as a software developer is really like in real life (something that watching tutorial at home will never provide you).
Last but not least you being a beginner, giving your 200% in your internship will benefit you more than it will benefit the company.
Again, see the bigger picture, whether the internship last 6 months or less, it will be the switch that gives you an earlier competitive advantage in the entry-level dev job market and a turning point for THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.
zealous bramble
Jesus Christ. Most CTOs are not doing the hiring. If you're "good enough and have a GitHub to show for it" you should be looking for entry level work, not fucking around with an internship. I would bet my life savings that 99.99999% of internships are ONLY for students. No shit it's easier to land a job as an experienced developer, but companies aren't looking for the people with 2-3 years of experience for entry level positions. That defeats the whole purpose of entry level.
I don't know how many times I have to say it, but internships are for students in undergraduate or graduate programs only. An entry level position is for entering the industry. Hence the fucking name.
zealous bramble
Alright if you want to keep leading people down the wrong path be my guest.
fluid matrix
as I said, for beginners who want to apply for jobs, go ahead try to find an entry-level job without an interesting GitHub and minimum field experience, see how long is going to take you and how many of these jobs you are going to land.
zealous bramble
That's literally how everyone who changed careers into software engineering got their first job
What do you think an entry level position is for?
Besides entering the industry
fluid matrix
good go ahead, be my guest.
as I said earlier, entry level jobs in the software development industry are way more competitive than they were back in the days and many beginners now switching career are often fooled by outdated internet articles stating that getting a job as a software developer is easy.
zealous bramble
It is easy, you just have to work a bit and play the game
But it's easy in the sense that not having a degree in computer science isn't necessarily going to withhold you from a career in software engineering
As opposed to other technical fields
fluid matrix
good, go ahead 😃
fluid matrix
I'm referring to beginners who are reading this
real python
Advising folks interested in switching careers to seek an internship is not good advice
zealous bramble
fluid matrix
@real python I'm not forcing anyone to follow the advice! @zealous bramble gave is point of view and I gave mine!
then for beginners who are reading this, it up to them to test both in real life and see what they get.
real python
I don’t see how “not forcing” makes it any better. Trying to get an internship when you already have a career is almost guaranteed to be a total non-starter and a complete waste of time
Maybe it’s different in some other job market but it’s certainly not viable in the US
fluid matrix
I don't know your views on managing budget! but for a lot of people, making a career switch is a big move and it must be prepared and it's never done out of the blue.
you need to have at least a 3 to 6 months runway savings to make the transition smooth on yourself and family.
real python
That makes an internship make even less sense. They pay nothing and are 100% temporary
fluid matrix
first off, there are internships that pay, I don't think that's even worth another discussion! secondly, have you noticed on my previous posts where I'm talking about the objective is to have a competitive advantage later on in the entry-level job market?
Plus having a runway? the runway is not because you won't be getting any money during that time, it's rather to add a bit on top of what you will be getting as it won't be a jr salary that you will be getting at that point.
real python
Yeah, there’s no confusion on what your objective is. It’s built on a totally unrealistic premise.
fluid matrix
😃
faint harbor
I didn't get my job until I bolstered my github and cv with some experience
tawny quartz
In my experience, most internships require a certain amount of current college experience and GPA, which limits them strictly to students.
gritty ivy
I've looked through a lot of internship posts on websites and all of them said to be in year 3 or 4 of college going towards a bachelor's degree
faint harbor
I have 1 more year to do to get a bachelors but meh. I'd rather have a job 😛
shut moth
@faint harbor if you can answer, how much are you getting $$?
faint harbor
Graduate with almost no experience level of pay anzu
gritty ivy
He does, he is saying his pay is around the average pay of what a graduate with no experience would receive
shut moth
Sorry! But I have no clue, I'm from South America (Argentina)
in the last year, my univ drops some works for you to gain laboral expertise (it counts as studying)
What would be the average pay?
vapid jay
30-40 in NA ?
shut moth
I see, thanks!
vapid jay
@shut moth not sure how accurate this is , but the survey was big , so perhaps not so far from true https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/salary
shut moth
That's quite some money, thanks!
faint harbor
yeah... thats wrong
25th percetile is saying 27k for where i live
i bet this is being skewed by london
anyway, yeah outside london the entry level uni grad is 18-25 depending on experience
(thats £)
uh
argentine pesos is looking like 866k
I can't say how much i'm on afaik but a bit more than that
pulsar flare
@faint harbor wut, how's that possible? In spain that's what you get for entry level too
But like the worst entry level positions
see?
pulsar flare
@leaden hedge I think you're gonna get a ban
rare sand
@leaden hedge that's not what this channel is for.
solemn valley
But one can see that it's about java
obtuse ibex
What is the likelihood of getting an unpaid internship as a python beginner? Is that even a thing?
karmic spear
why unpaid?
obtuse ibex
Because I don't know enough to be paid lol I'd rather have the work experience and learn
If I can find someone to pay to teach me then sure.
karmic spear
well, I think it might depend on the country if it's paid or not but generally no-one expects from intern to know a lot.
What companies usually want to see is your motivation and same basic knowledge of a programming language and programming principles.
obtuse ibex
I'm Canadian. I have a basic understanding of Python. I just need guidance and a mentor of sorts to push me in the right direction, as well as having real world projects to work on.
There is a Python group in my city and I've asked but I have yet to get a response so I'll wait and see.
narrow lake
Hi guys, is there something similar to project odin but for Python?
I tried to google it but haven't got anything close enough to the way Project odin is structured yet
solemn valley
project oden?
narrow lake
@solemn valley Yeah I found out about it myself just recently through digging around
solemn valley
what is project oden, only project i can find is odin but as you wrote oden twice i assume you mean something different?
narrow lake
@obtuse ibex Let me know if you're interested for some pair programming, I'm looking to improve my skills too, we can work on some projects together and hold each other accountable
@solemn valley no, that's what I meant.
The Project Odin ( T.O.P)
solemn valley
(its the odin project)
narrow lake
yes it is
solemn valley
so looking at this, everything they teach you apart from ruby and ruby on rails should be equally applicable to python. Ruby would ofc change to python we got our resource tag for that if you want to and ruby on rails would change to either Flask or Django
narrow lake
@solemn valley yes I know that.
I've built a few things with Django and wrote some python scripts to interact with APIs.
I'm not quite "a complete beginner", but not that much advanced either!
at this point, I'm more trying to experiment pair programming on a couple of projects, which is something that I've noticed being promoted in the T.O.P community but not so much spoke about in the Python community (at least in my personal experience)
@solemn valley This is what I'm referring to https://www.theodinproject.com/courses/web-development-101/lessons/introduction-to-pair-programming
solemn valley
i know pair programming
obtuse ibex
@narrow lake Heck yes buddy. PM me what sort of project you have in mind 😃
vapid jay
@obtuse ibex @narrow lake also would be interested in joining if there's a spot
narrow lake
@vapid jay yes, you can join, and anybody else who wants to join is welcome too, we can be pairing on different days it will help to get more practice in.
And then beside the weekly pairing sessions, schedule a day when we all come together in the same session to bounce ideas on the project we will be all working on.
vapid jay
cool
narrow lake
I invited you both on the discord server we will be using exclusively for this.
I'm now working on getting an sr developer familiar with Agil/Scrum that could be checking on us as a project manager / Scrum Master once or twice a week.
The objective is to simulate the atmosphere of what it is like working in a real software company as a remote team member.
narrow lake
By the way, if there's a mid or sr developer here who want a group where he can practice being a scrum master before trying it in his/her real job, you are welcome to join.
narrow lake
Hi guys, I came across the below article on my feed. What's your opinion about this as far as for people who prefers to focus in backend instead of choosing to become full-stack developers while making a career switch?
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frontendbackend-vs-full-stack-development-divide-join-soloshchuk/
upbeat fiber
@narrow lake i do believe goes on the person choice in the end lol
tho the article is really well written and gives you a good overview about the "market" also the comments helps a lot to see how people diverge in which focus
narrow lake
@upbeat fiber Yes, but it seems like even though in cases where the developer wants to focus on working in backends, it almost seems like you are better off going the full stack road instead, just to give yourself more flexibility when it comes to the job market.
upbeat fiber
@narrow lake that depends on what you wanna focus
@narrow lake in my experience, i met a person with a lot of knownledge about backend, he really does a great job but hated doing it, so when this guy ( Sir M...) changed his focus to frontend literally outshined most frontdevs and now he found himself at his "real area".
of course flexibility is "always" good however if you have a project that needs "expert" people in one of the "sides", hybrid development is the way to go. (like the company that i worked as internship)
hollow mantle
You can't hurt yourself by getting familiar with both. I usually don't accept contracts with front-end work, but once in a while it can't be helped.
karmic spear
I'd say you need to know about FE and it's problems to be a better BE developer, but you definitely don't need to know as much as a fullstack developer.
upbeat fiber
@hollow mantle @karmic spear couldn't agree more with both of you
sturdy hearth
What's the demand for developers who can get almost every job done with spaghetti code?
karmic spear
if you can do it fast, then a there is a huge demand
main thicket
@sturdy hearth Looks like you're fit to join the research group I'm a part of 😅 Some really really crappy quality code is written when you're using a language that's not your main for an application that won't be used again
Great to get some quickly written spaghetti code... Unless you're a student who has to use that code for further research
Also yes, the code is incredibly bad. Almost every line is a linter error, it uses camelCase, there's imports in the middle of functions, lines are 200 chars long, and heck, it uses tabs. Yes, I give my supervisor shit for his code every day
vapid jay
This sounds a lot like some projects I've been in personally. Any idea why code quality isn't as common? I don't think it's taught as frequently as it should.
real python
In an educational setting? Because there's a lot of things to teach and not a lot of time to do it.
vapid jay
Yes, in an educational setting. I was lucky to have code quality standards set for school assignments and projects. Now I'm the only one pushing for readability in work projects.
Sounds like readability (and even portability) isn't demanded in a lot of real projects - supervisors and teammates were shocked I mentioned starting code reviews.
real python
It depends on the setting. many technical managers see it as a waste of time. It may never come back and bite them, or they're long gone when it does.
vapid jay
Hm, people are incentivised to not care? Problem is I tend to work in medical projects which span many years.
The following generations of staff and the regulatory reps need documentation, and it just isn't there.
real python
People are incentivized to get it working
vapid jay
Yeah, I guess nothing keeps people from submitting spaghetti.
real python
Code standards do, but that requires the technical manager(s) to see the value in them and enforce it
vapid jay
Ah, that makes more sense.
My managers are clinical people.
It's almost as if I have to advocate for these things to help keep development running efficiently.
sweet spade
its a two-fold problem, I feel
one, doing this doesn't produce any visible value as far as money/time expenditure is concerned from a management persepective
two, deadlines and pressure, whether internal or external, means devs tend to skip or minimize
its really up to team leads and eng managers to drive standards
hollow mantle
It is arguably the most important part of developing, I would really push for it.
sweet spade
but if the company culture doesn't support it, its a hard thing to get going
because if your management already sees that as a value loss, its difficult to change their mind
hollow mantle
If something breaks later on, all the sudden someone has to go try to use the code and they waste hours or even days just trying to understand it
sweet spade
because it doesn't affect them right now
vapid jay
It all comes down to whether the manager values and understands the power of documentation?
I have seen days and weeks of programmer's time sink because of the lack of supporting documents. I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices this.
narrow lake
@hollow mantle If something breaks later on, all the sudden someone has to go try to use the code and they waste hours or even days just trying to understand it
@hollow mantle Exactly my thoughts! do big companies such as Google or Amazon even allow dirty codes? I doubt that!
zealous bramble
you would be very, very surprised then
there's a reason why Facebook's old motto was "move fast and break shit"
narrow lake
lol
narrow lake
@zealous bramble I have a cousin who works in the cybersecurity industry, things he does are quite impressive but trying to read his python codes it's quite a pain in the ass! Lol
all he ever cares about is whether his codes work or not! even the way he names his variables is quite hilarious, I've once seen in his script an HTTP request referred to as brothel.
karmic spear
@narrow lake big companies code does not have to be perfect, you can read lots of things about booking.com codebase, it's just terrible. same applies to most of the large and old companies. Yes they most likely have standards, but due to the codebase size, refactoring becomes a word that you may not say.
narrow lake
@karmic spear IMO, if as developers we actually spend more time in real life reading and tweaking rather than actually writing codes, why would you as a professional developer write dirty production codes whenever you have those few opportunities to start from scratch knowing that the cleaner are the codes you are writing, the easier and faster it will be for the next developer to read and debug it whenever necessary.
in this specific case, writing dirty codes [ production code ] kind of doesn't make sense don't you agree?
@karmic spear @zealous bramble what's your opinion about the following https://dev.to/isaacandsuch/comment/j13
vapid jay
I love that post!
narrow lake
I do too
vapid jay
I'm almost 100% sure the original post was meant to be sarcastic, especially considering the image that went with it.
Looks like the comments section of that piece has other thoughts about that.
zealous bramble
you can really tell when someone doesn't have industry experience when they assume that every company only accepts 100% clean code
but that's not to say most companies accept code that is purposefully obtuse; there are just times where getting something to a point where it's "good enough" is perfectly acceptable
narrow lake
@zealous bramble you can really tell when someone doesn't have industry experience when they assume that every company only accepts 100% clean code
I don't have a huge industry experience (career switch).
My question was rather what is your opinion about that post
drowsy spindle
you guys are white hats or black hats?
real python
Hats mess up my hair
vapid jay
How about Santa hats?
frozen pasture
I'd love a santa hat, what colors do we have for them?
fluid matrix
A great book for rainbow hat hackers
There is also the follow-up within the same series titled: Copying codes directly from Stack Overflow
You should check it out.
real python
Um
upbeat fiber
Dois (two)
narrow lake
rainbow hat hackers?
I thought there are only black, white and grey?
OOH, I get it now!
LOL
muted pagoda
who delet my message
real python
Is "kek" really what you want to contribute to a careers discussion?
muted pagoda
In that case, @upbeat fiber is "Dois (two)" really what you want to contribute to a careers discussion?
real python
Are you done?
muted pagoda
Yeah
tawny quartz
"rainbow hat" wut?
fluid matrix
lol
vapid jay
Had anyone here gotten a job as a software dev without any college?
rare sand
yep. me. I didn't even finish high school. took a very long time to find a company willing to take a chance on me, though. do not recommend.
vapid jay
well i kind of don't have a choice, I like programming but I never finished college and am kind of in a position were learning to code in a academy would be cheaper and faster. Is there any pointers you can give out?
like any specific area to focus
rare sand
build a nice linkedin and a nice github. that combination is a pretty formidable force for getting the interviews in the first place.
then be prepared to go to a lot of interviews.
and be put through a bunch of technical tests
nail the interview and the tests, and you might get lucky
vapid jay
@vapid jay several of my coworkers in my first job were taught (or just accredited) in a 3 month thing i forget what theyre called.. we were doing web dev and my boss was laid back (to a certain degree)
but anyway they were able to get hired
vapid jay
@vapid jay I'd say most companies care about politics and results. In that order.
If you look good and produce things that look good, and make them money, they don't care at all about anything else.
yeah.. a lot of times the degree will just be a breaking factor between two candidates
if you have experience in internships or related experience of any type that helps as well
College is a waste of time for some people.
karmic spear
well it's also one of the filters for people applying for the job.
Spending time for initial call with every candidate that is sending CV would be a fulltime job for more than 1 person.
So I would say that even getting to the initial interview without the education would be much more complicated than with it.
just becaues most of the times you'd be filtered out on the CV review stage.
vapid jay
@karmic spear you can get around that by offering results and experience with more visibility.
Sure, that other guy has a degree. I actually have a this list of cool things I made.
results > degree will win, if the politics didn't already win.
karmic spear
if you have an experience than your education does not matter much anymore. I'm talking about getting the first job
karmic spear
that is why I say "does not matter much" instead of "dose not matter"
it still matters in some specific cases.
rare sand
this varies wildly, in my experience
some employers absolutely will not consider anyone with less than a bachelor degree
others don't care as long as you have job experience
having a nice portfolio is a strong advantage no matter what, but by no means a guarantee that you won't be filtered out for not having a degree.
spring arrow
More and more companies ard dropping the college degree thing tbh
Mostly due to lackluster applicants from even Ivy Leagues.
rare sand
here in norway it still seems to be the prevailing attitude.
although I have no idea how other countries compare
craggy wave
Degrees are still really important here, too.
frozen spear
In the USA, I see degree requirements on Junior Positions. Senior positions seems a bit differnet oddly enough
but I'm just an outsider looking to maybe jump into the industry
vapid jay
if they can't tell if you have one or not, then what does it matter if you actually do or not. 😛
green sinew
@rare sand Do you think companies will judge you for having a Gitlab instead of GitHub?
rare sand
not if they have any sense.
green sinew
XD
vapid jay
or you can have both just in case
green sinew
Yeah.
I also have a discord bot game (by far my most impressive project), But I preferably want to keep it private (don't want people abusing the game). I also want to be able to show this off..... How to I get around that?
spring arrow
I see
spring arrow
Learn to program, learn to debug, learn maths, learn complex maths, then you will be good to go.
Learn to apply all of those things to computers and information.
Learn about memes.
Sorry for being too broad but it all depends
And you need to have projects under your belt of course.
vapid jay
As a current freshman in high school what are my odds of being able to get a summer job or internship in cs or as a programmer
violet spindle
I would say infinitesimal unless your dad is L-7 at google.
vapid jay
When would you say I’d be old enough to
vapid jay
thanks guys, enough information to know that at the very least there are chances with someone out there without college is goof enough for me to persue this.
hollow mantle
Make sure you take a good look at yourself before making a decision. Not everyone thrives in a self-taught environment, and school is really the best option.
vapid jay
I hear you and that makes sense
violet spindle
There was an old article someone just shared about degrees being much less important at google. https://www.businessinsider.com/google-hiring-non-graduates-2013-6 "So we have teams where you have 14 percent of the team made up of people who've never gone to college."
wheat remnant
what do they do though?
vapid jay
I hear you and that makes sense
fluid matrix
@vapid jay Start first with web dev, if after a while you notice that you still like programming perhaps you can switch to data science if you're good with math.
the advantage in this approach is that you will have enough computer programming knowledge to help you make an educated decision.
furthermore, you can still get a job in a meantime in a small startup as a web dev while learning data science on the side during your free time and having an actual monthly income to support yourself.
then 2 or 4 years letter, you will have a quite dressed up resume with professional experience and an interesting Github to show for it.
if by that time google still doesn't accept you, many SF Startups will, and you will get paid at least $130k/ per year if not more.
after a couple of month of really putting the work in, and pragmatically proving your value into the company and not just being another coder! you can request to work full-time remotely and only come on site for high-level meetings.
when you live in Texas with a salary of a San Francisco SW engineer, if you make some life smart decisions, you can live pretty well and possibly retire in your late 30's (if not earlier) and enjoy the rest of your life.
at 17 , you are just 1 or 2 years close to leaving your parent house and fly with your own wings, so you better start getting ready.
@vapid jay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hsepmhrw8A
zealous bramble
I'm only about 1 minute into that video, but his point implying that you could be like Zuckerberg if you're self taught is pretty outlandish considering he started programming when he was in middle school under the guidance of his father
that whole point is basically like saying "drop out of college because Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Paul Allen did it! look where they're at now!"
fluid matrix
well watch the video till the end first
zealous bramble
so his point about how college is a "waste of time" because "you have to take 2 years of gen eds before you can take your major classes" just plain isn't true
most CS students take their intro classes in their freshman/sophomore years
that's more than enough time for students to figure out if they like CS, and if they want to continue to earn a degree or not
umbral valley
Taking Gen Eds before diving into major is feelsbadman. Should definitely sprinkle them throughout so you’re like 6-9 classes deep into your major by sophomore year is done. Then you’ll have a pretty big understanding of whether or not you like your major
zealous bramble
then what do you do if you want to switch and your new major's core classes conflict with the scheduling of your gen eds?
fluid matrix
owh..... don't get offended dude, I assume that you're studying for a CS degree
lol
fluid matrix
well good for you then
zealous bramble
boot camps are largely a scam
fluid matrix
lol
zealous bramble
the entrance interviews filter people who could otherwise get an actual programming job
umbral valley
You pick different times / gen ed options. Virtually every school has a million sections of gen Ed’s so that’s rarely an issue
real python
Hopping into a gen ed class in the middle of more specific courses is a total non-starter
umbral valley
Wdym ela
real python
They're foundational, for one, and they're also a lot of work on top of everything else
Universities put a lot of time into how to structure the curriculum
it's what you're paying for
They're also at like 7 in the morning
umbral valley
All my gen eds were offered at like 7 times during the day
real python
Great
umbral valley
And that’s pretty standard from what I’ve seen. I think.
real python
The rest of the courses are also structured assuming you don't have to deal with the scheduling conflict because...they're already done
umbral valley
Right. I guess my point ultimately was that it’s not 2 years in when you start intro classes because with a traditional schedule by sophomore year you’ve probably taken 2-3 classes a semester of your major so you should know whether you like it or not
fluid matrix
lol, this type of comments were quite expected!
but anyway, for any career switcher who is reading this, at least now you know your options, so do what you want.
if you want to pursue a CS degree, go for it! if not, the choice is yours!
real python
I guess reality is "quite expected"
Clay, I don't see how that's different from what's already being done
zealous bramble
why is it only tech that has this widespread issue where people think they can take shortcuts to get super high paying jobs without much formal education
never see this for civil engineering, or electrical, or hard sciences
real python
Because a bunch of super rich people did it I guess
zealous bramble
yeah, very few people who got lucky
real python
It's also much easier to learn programming in parallel with everything else vs. say, engineering
umbral valley
It’s not different. But like Shane said earlier the vibe of the video is like “you spend the first 2 years doing only elective/ gen ed classes so you don’t know if you like your major”, which isn’t true
Or that’s what I gathered anyways
real python
that is the vibe, because you put a mechanical engineer into a chemistry class and they go "college is stupid"
umbral valley
Yeah
real python
Or an english class, etc.
umbral valley
Exactly
real python
But "Taking Gen Eds before diving into major is feelsbadman. Should definitely sprinkle them throughout so you’re like 6-9 classes deep" is exactly how (most?) curriculum is already done
umbral valley
right
it is how it's done
i was disagreeing wiht the video, by stating how it should be (and is done)
whereas it seemed to put out the idea that you just don't take any aside from Gen Eds
real python
I guess I should have paid more attention in my reading comprehension gened
umbral valley
hahaha all good
but @zealous bramble i think it's more prevalent in tech because for the longest time we've heard people / recruiters say "you don't need a degree for programming. just self study", etc. Now, people are heeding that advice and learning to program in Middle School / H.S. and trying to enter the workforce without a degree, but they're competing against people with CS / SWE / et. al. degrees so very few get interviews, call backs, whatever.
This leads to them, having the knowledge, but without anything to convince people they have the knowledge. So boot camps start to rise as a way to offer some sort of displayment of knowledge cheaper than college, but without some sort of licensing board / accreditations, it leads to the massive rise of scummy/scammy ones, much like we saw with online colleges a few years back.
That's not necessarily to say all of them are bad, but there's just no way to verify ahead of time.
fluid matrix
Lol, that video really got you guys worked up
umbral valley
Also the lack of professional licensing like PEs, the doctor license, bar exam, etc. makes shortcutting also seem possible
real python
The "problem" with tech is that you can self teach (or boot camp) to a point where you're employable which, while possible with other sciences, is much more difficult. You can get a programming job without a CS degree or even knowing the math at all, you're just a far less attractive candidate on paper than someone who can program but also knows the science
Compounded by the attitude, at least in the US, that you have to get a degree to be competitive in the workforce.
vapid jay
@zealous bramble celebrity worship sucks
umbral valley
Agreed on that. though the second part is definitely loosening up
vapid jay
@real python I think it comes down to categories of people. Some people are uninitiated about the world, and the only hope they have of being useful to a business is, in their eyes, being told what to learn and how to do what others want them to to do make money
I think initiative people will just learn on their own, and uninitiated people won't.
I go for classes when I have trouble/difficulty with something on my own, namely mathematics.
real python
That seems pretty pessimistic
How many 17 year olds have any clue about what's useful to a business?
vapid jay
Uninitiated 17 year olds don't care at all what the world looks like.
umbral valley
but again, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the idea of a boot camp. it just can vary wildly on the quality of education given and there's no real accreditation or other source that says "you meet X minimum standard we've set for an acceptable amount of information given"
vapid jay
I hope we have a world someday where people don't have to give up so much of their daily lives just to survive.
ponders
vapid jay
people take shorcuts for everything
Pluming is one example. You don't need to spend your life studying for it. You cam get se certs and be done with it
IT is the same thing. some peiple just decide to get A+ or network+ and getting other certs from there, it's not just in software dev
Honestly it bothers me more that a person that know nothing of computers is more qualified for a computer job just because they have a bachelor's in something else.
royal hawk
yo, if u want
main thicket
Would like to point out a PEs license that @umbral valley mentioned is essentially useless and almost no engineer (outside of civil who need them to sign off on things) gets them. In most countries, engineering as a job isnt limited to those with some engineering qualification. People choose to almost solely hire people with engineering degrees anyway because it's very hard to beat a graduate
umbral valley
It's not entirely useless, you have to have a PE to sign off on drawings, or to run your own practice no?
fluid matrix
@vapid jay You don't need to spend your life studying for it. You can get se certs and be done with it yes, it's called the 80/20% rule. Learn that and your life will never be the same.
it's all good to stand and defend common formality, but there are reasons why 80% of the world wealth is owned only by the top 20% of the population.
And you will be fooling yourself to think that it's because they are lucky!
On that same note, I would like just to precise that I'm not knocking down people studying for CS or who got CS degree.
All I'm saying is that you can make it into the industry (or even beyond) without CS degree (or any degree), and luck has nothing to do with it.
real python
Rags that's not particularly true
fluid matrix
Critical thinking is not only useful in computer programing! it's highly useful in real life too.
if after watching that youtube video you think that the given suggestions don't make sense!
then by all means, please follow the "Status quo" your entire life if that's the only place where you feel the most comfortable.
real python
Do you have actual career advice or just ridiculous posturing?
heavy mantle
I guess someone had to fill the void 🤷♂️
main thicket
@umbral valley people only need to "sign off" for things that lead to issues with public safety. So basically just buildings and bridges and stuff
And no you dont need it to run your own practice
"practice" isnt a thing in engineering, an engineering company is just a company
@real python its pretty true, a PE in engineering has value in terms of giving a credential but nobody outside of structural engineering or something really needs it.
you might get a bit of respecc from others who've done it because PE is a hard process but other than that, not really a benefit on paper. In almost every place progression is based upon experience etc. PE isnt a requirement almost anywhere. Heck, even if you dont have a PE, all you need is one person in the company who has one who just signs your stuff off and you continue to work as an engineer
zealous bramble
In the US "engineer" is a protected title
You can't legally say you are an engineer if you have not passed the PE exam
lime grotto
Anyone here have linked in profiles that want to connect?
main thicket
@zealous bramble no it isn't. Engineer anyone can call themselves
"Professional engineer" is a protected title
Otherwise everyone wouldn't be calling themselves "software engineers"
Good thing is people don't care if professional engineer is protected because nobody calls themselves that anyway
zealous bramble
because "software engineering" isn't actually "engineering"
in the sense that it's a regulated title
but "engineer" is absolutely a regulated and protected title in every state
zealous bramble
you are factually incorrect but okay
main thicket
In the United States, the practice of professional engineering is highly regulated, and the title "professional engineer" is legally protected, meaning that it is unlawful to use it to offer engineering services to the public unless permission, certification or other official endorsement is specifically granted by that state through a professional engineering license
Some states also limit "Engineer" to varying degrees but it is far from "absolutely a regulated and protected title in every state"
you are factually incorrect but okay
Lol what
Every state regulates the practice of engineering to ensure public safety by granting only Professional Engineers (PEs) the authority to sign and seal engineering plans and offer their services to the public
zealous bramble
If I just conceded will you stop spitting out quotes from that wikipedia article
I'm really not in the mood to argue with someone who is just going to be pedantic as hell
main thicket
If I stop, will you stop being factually incorrect and blabbering on about a field you don't know about 🙄
zealous bramble
yeah sure I don't know about it, right, whatever you have to tell yourself dude
the snark continues
main thicket
says wrong thing. calls me out for being wrong when I'm not
"whatever you have to tell yourself dude"
zealous bramble
you still talking?
vapid jay
@zealous bramble my job title is engineer and i'm not an engineer by education
and i live in the US
if it's regulated i'd be really surprised
main thicket
^^
My background is engineering too and I personally would prefer if it was a regulated title but I understand there's other engineers who have no formal engineering education who are better engineers than I am and it would be unfair to them.
frozen spear
heres another feelsbadman. Spent a lot of my life in Restaurants. Director level, 6 figures.... Life is good. Except I hate it. I want to jump into more of a programming field but worried my wage base will evaporate.
Looking at getting a possible degree to cover. Not sure. ugh. Decisions Decisions
gleaming hull
I am from India well I am still in 9th grade, i have already decided to go in software engineering after 12th. I hope I will be a software engineer soon 😂
icy berry
how old are you when your in 9th grade? that does sound great, maybe a bit early to know 😄 I decided early myself, so it does happen
vapid jay
14-16
icy berry
around the same age as I decided
zenith glen
vapid jay
so I'm looking at getting back in to python. where might I wanna focus to make money doing it?
never had a programming job.. studied IT/cs though
main thicket
AI stuff if you like maths
vapid jay
!resources
inner wrenBOT
lilac burrow
I’ve got an amptitude test coming up n never done one before any advice?
For all my other jobs never had to do one :/
??
indigo sleet
I've only ever done academic ones
They're usually related to logical thinking though
indigo sleet
The academic ones? Usually like 60-90 minutes IME
latent crystal
whats the best code to learn to get the highest paying job?
and should i drop out of school, if i want to be a self taught developer?
I was thinking about switching majors tho, but idk if i should keep wasting money on uni
i am an electrical enginner in my sophomore year of uni, i have a 3.8 gpa but idk if i want to keep going down this path. I have more ambitions for coding than I do engineering
hollow mantle
There isn't a "best" code. Programming language is a tool for solving problems, it's applicable in most fields. One of the highest paid jobs in software is a software architect, who usually doesn't even touch the code at all.
I dropped out to be a freelancer because I was not doing well in school. It's just not the type of environment that I succeed in. It took a few months before I could get any work, and it wasn't easy getting there. If you're doing well in school, I'd suggest sticking with it. It's a lot easier to get an internship if you have college behind your belt.
green sinew
Would you say the what you did in college influences it to?
For example, taking maths and physics instead of CS?
But applying for IT jobs?
hollow mantle
I've heard that a lot about people who want Software Engineering positions end up majoring in Physics or Math because it's so applicable
latent crystal
so zeero, you have a job with a company?
hollow mantle
In the end it doesn't really matter. If you know what you're doing, you'll be able to find someone that doesn't care how you got there. The challenge of being self-taught is you need the drive to learn and progress. You don't really have anyone to grade your work, or tell you you're doing something wrong. It's basically trial and error, and up to you to improve your practices.
latent crystal
or are you a full time freelancer?
hollow mantle
I've got a couple contracts with companies, and one with an individual atm
latent crystal
how much do you make approximately? Not being rude, just want to have a sense of the field's pay
i'm going to try my absolute hardest to be a programmer, i know i'm starting late too, but I really enjoy it
hollow mantle
A typical contract is from $40-$60 an hour
latent crystal
and you work 8 hours?
hollow mantle
Depends on the project, but I try to.
Keep in mind I'm not getting the benefits of having an employer
latent crystal
whats a good way to start? I legit watched like 10 hours worth of python and swift
I also took a programming class for matlab, and got an easy A in it
I think to me, the basics are second nature to me, I just have trouble with starting projects because of graphics and UI i'm not that creative
i do have a project I want to start but I am not that good yet. I really am considering switching my major though
hollow mantle
I started out on a freelancing site, like Freelancer.com or UpWork.com. Taking small script jobs or desktop applications.
There's a lot more to it than just programming. The amount of work you get is pretty dependent on how good you are with people.
Which is why internships are the better choice if you can get in one
You can cut the bullshit and just code (usually)
main thicket
@latent crystal keep your EE major. Pretty easy (almost trivial) to translate from EE to software
Just write more software in your free time
You'll be plenty qualified
Also think about going into Embedded Dev to keep in touch with your EE competencies
hollow mantle
An Engineering major will definitely make solving problems a lot easier
latent crystal
i have a 3.8 but i loweky fucked up this semester
I bombed my physics class, probably got an F in it
main thicket
No one cares about your GPA. I do plenty well with a pretty bad GPA
latent crystal
and i'm afraid, i don't know if physics and engineering is my thing
well the thing is, Ihave to have a 3.5 gpa to get into the engineering program
main thicket
Oh wait you're in high school?
main thicket
Ah right
latent crystal
I want to switch to computer science or something
idk I really enjoy coding, it seems fun to me
main thicket
If physics and engineering aren't your thing then just switch
latent crystal
like i am ambitious about coding, I've never wanted to learn more about anyhting else than swift and python
I have a lot of ideas too
main thicket
Sounds you're you're excited about CS. Just go ahead and switch in that case
main thicket
👌
latent crystal
I'd rather learn about something i enjoy
Learning about something I enjoy makes me kinda horny tbh
nah, i'm jk, but it really does wonders when you actually enjoy school for once lol
like i got an A in programming and i took the best damn notes ive ever taken for that class
I also had a great professor
main thicket
It does. Can definitely relate to the feeling you get when you learn something you enjoy
vapid jay
anyone here do commission on a simple first year uni program?
summer ivy
I figure this is probably the best place for me to ask this
So I graduated HS back in the spring and have been a Software Engineering apprentice doing mostly work with Displays since. I'm also going to Community College part time mostly retaking the CS I did in HS because I didn't get credit.
Back in HS I participated in many coding competitions many of which imitaed the college level ACM. Most of the problems at these competitions were
-Here is a problem
-Heres a small example
-Heres a bunch of data
-Manipulate the data to Get the right answer
I loved this and it's why I'm going into programming instead of general mathematics. What I wanted to know is what should I be looking for in classes and job opportunities and such to maximize this data driven problem solving
My understanding is I probably want to go into Data Science instead of Software Engineering or Computer Science but I'm not sure
vapid jay
@hollow mantle How likely is it to get a job programming without a college degree of some sort? Schooling isn't exactly something I can do, since I have 2 other people to take care of besides myself
hollow mantle
I never get asked about education if that puts it into perspective. During interviews, they just tested what I knew.
I personally don't feel comfortable telling someone to not go to school, because everyone learns differently. It's up to you to make that decision.
vapid jay
From the start I rather not go to school for it, I barely made my way through high school due to the intense boredom it put me through
I'm at the level where I know basics, I know how to use a library & piece together a program for whatever I want to do, but its not enough, I want to get to the point where I can write my own library, & get into really complex problems without worrying, just having issues finding something thats interesting yet complex enough to push me to that point
hollow mantle
@summer ivy it's not so cut and dry. I'd say a data scientist is still a software engineer. SE is just a fancy way of saying "using computers to solve problems".
@vapid jay just takes practice and patience. Try to automate as much of your life as possible, contribute to open source, train on coding challenges, etc.
main thicket
data scientists arent really software engineers. Their work isnt to write software
It's to choose and optimise maths models
Software just happens to be how they do it
umbral valley
Idk that seems kind of semantical. Like saying a physicist isn’t a mathematician
summer ivy
I am not familiar enough with the semantics for it to be relevant to the answer I am looking for.
What sort of classes should I take in College and what sort of jobs should I be looking for to maximize that data based problem solving, job title being irrelevant. Based on what @main thicket Data Science sounds a lot like what I am looking for
karmic spear
math logics, math models, statistics, control theory
those are a bit advanced and you would need to learn some other disciplines before you apply for those.
pulsar flare
Guys, everytime you ask question like: Do I need a degree for X, you must specify at least your continent, because it really is required for a bunch of countries, like no exceptions (China looking at you)
main thicket
@umbral valley ... Physicists aren't mathematicians, not even similar. But SWE and DS are even further apart than that
@karmic spear control theory wouldn't help 😅 that's an engineering class
umbral valley
Hard disagree but that’s kind of tangential to here I guess
main thicket
You can disagree all you like 🤷 They both do funny stuff with symbols but so does everyone in Physics, Maths, Engineering, Chemistry, CS
Anyhow
@summer ivy take all the linear algebra and statistics and probability models classes you can. Up till Calculus 3. Optimisation classes (linear, convex etc). Machine learning. Programming classes.
The rest you can choose depending on what you want to do. Maybe stochastic models would be good if you want to do time series forecasting. Data structures would be good. DS specific classes too.
Oh operations research will be fun for you too
summer ivy
So in HS the classes I took were Intro, OOP, and Data Structutes
Another reason I came to this conclusion is that I loved all the assignments from my Data Structures class, using maps and trees and such to solve problems gave me a real sense of joy
I did Linear Algebra my Senior year and Calc 2 my Junior
Statistics is on the list to do before my associates
main thicket
Yep cool though there's multiple linear algebra classes. You should probably look at those unless you already know eigenspace decomposition, gram schmidt process, SVD, normal equation derivation in least squares etc
summer ivy
So Data Science and the types of things that go with it like Machine Learning are the way to go to get what I enjoy out of programming?
It was a Community College class so it was probably fairly basic. Eigen values I think were some of the final stuff in there
fairly basic for Linear algebra i mean
main thicket
Yep, data science fits what you would like perfectly. Work as a data scientist involves being given data and choosing and fitting mathematical models to that data to help with prediction. Classical tasks are regression (prediction of continuous value for given input) or classification (putting things into categories) but also unsupervised stuff like clustering (grouping data thats similar into clusters)
summer ivy
Cool! Got any resources for introductions into Data Science then? I've seen lots of stuff related to it thrown around in the python subreddit with no idea where to start
After I get my associates in CS I will either go for a BS in DS while still working or I might go full time student idk. Either way itd be cool to get a head start given how interesting I find the process
main thicket
You would generally receive a bunch of data. You'd run exploratory analysis on it. See what it has, how variables are related and correlated. Then you'd do stuff like denormalize to a decent scale, use PCA to reduce dimensionality, etc. Then figuring out how data is related and what would be the model to approach with. You use mathematical optimisation to optimise that model parameters to fit data and voilà.
So a pretty different sort of job than a SWE. You're not writing software, just small scripts to play with data until you get a decent model. Then you usually hand it off to someone who actually writes software to run it in production.
I think Columbia's ML course is a good place to start at DS. Though you should do your statistics and probability models course and revise linalg and multivariate calc before you start that
summer ivy
SWE can be quite overwhelming. Right now I am just making a simple display to show some dates because a lot of deadlines are coming up so my technical lead wants them on a screen. I made a quick and dirty version in Processing (a visual orriented derivative of Java for learning) in an hour and 90 lines of code. But I need to make the official version in Java so it can be maintained and I am already sitting at 12 different classes ans probably a few hundred lines of code
main thicket
😅 Wouldn't like that either
I personally find vanilla software developer to be boring and it kills me. I need to be using software to be doing something technical in order to properly enjoy it
That's why I do ML, computer vision, scientific computing, embedded programming, robotics, etc etc. instead of just plain dev.
indigo sleet
@red cloak As stated in the channel topic, this channel is not for recruitment. We don't yet have a system for it, but it's being talked about.
red cloak
Oh my bad sorry didnt see that,
queen mauve
how do i get a job
main thicket
Apply for one
whole dust
Thats my only weakness... Shit
indigo sleet
This isn't the place for shitposting
narrow lake
@main thicket Lol
@queen mauve What do you mean? are you applying and not getting any?
hollow mantle
Engineers, as practitioners of engineering, are people who invent, design, analyse, build, and test machines, systems, structures and materials to fulfill objectives and requirements while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, regulation, safety, and cost
Hm?
grizzled sundial
Story time!
I'm the lead SW engineer on a medical device where we decided to use Python, and it's been an interesting experience. One of our systems engineers (with a background in software) has been scoffing at the decision throughout the entire project, droping nonsensical opinions about the language (Python is slow, if it doesn't compile how do you know it works, etc). The software developers themselves, who were only mildly familiar with the language before the start of the project, have come to love the language and the test-driven development methodology we're using.
We're in crunch time for the project; all of the hardware has finally come in, we're building units, and the system/software integration is going great. I think I've sold my company on Python and FOSS software stacks in general.
In conclusion: don't let people convince you that Python doesn't work for embedded systems. They need to stop being reliant on dinosaur languages, anyway 😛
karmic spear
that really depends on what you guys do.
as a software engineer with ~10years in python I would prefer to not use it in some cases like medicine. But again it really depends on what your software does.
grizzled sundial
That's true for any design decision. If it can't meet your requirements, don't use it. In our case, it meets them.
slim island
depending on the classification of the medical device, that could be entirely valid
cardinal rule #1: if all memory isn't statically allocated up front with a static guarantee of no further allocations, the system is not safe for mission critical use
solemn valley
Although he is wrong about the fact that python doesnt compile, it compiles into bytecode, he might be right that python is not the best language for embedded systems as a lot of stuff gets checked at runtime only which might cause problems while the thing is runnign and that is certainly not something you want to happen in medicine
main thicket
I'm thoroughly against Python for embedded. It's slower, too dynamic and makes bitwise operations harder to work with. Its harder to make guarantees on a system that relies almost entirely on heap allocated memory
Which explains why non C/C++ languages occupy <5% of embedded devices
slim island
python is fine* for embedded systems if you can tolerate random restarts and can afford to waste a ton of your hardware capability
and don't care about your battery life
slim island
say an IoT temperature sensor with a sample rate of 1s/minute can totally use python
crashed and rebooted? No worries
main thicket
if anyone doesn't mind me shilling again, rust is exactly the kind of language embedded devices benefit from
main thicket
Wtf is zig
slim island
zig is actually awesome
solemn valley
why is rust weird an a meme?
slim island
because the borrow checker simultaneously hurts productivity too much and doesn't actually guarantee that much safety
solemn valley
it guarantees a lot of safety
slim island
personal opionion
solemn valley
the borrow checker is one of the biggest things which makes rust rust
slim island
as for zig, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18603632
Hacker News
I totally accept that I could be wrong about rust and it'll displace C, but my personal opinion is it's a meme and will die off
main thicket
It guarantees a fair bit of safety. Once you get past the curve a bit, productivity isn't that different since you instinctually avoid scenarios that are bad and you might save time debugging since C/C++ would have screwed you over
I'd love to learn about zig, I'd love some chance at disruption in the systems language space
solemn valley
it will certainly not die off that quick, lots of companies and organizations are already using it like mozilla for firefox or npm for their registry
main thicket
Google for Xi, Facebook for mercurial server, Microsoft for Azure and IoT stack, Dropbox for backend, Discord for webstore backend, etc etc etc
Anyways, we're offtopic
vapid jay
“I want to code roblox”
I actually want to study for a job at Microsoft or Xbox or even make my own gaming company that creates games
solemn valley
microsoft and xbox is the same
fresh stump
Rust > C?
vapid jay
What do you guys think of this:
Someone applying for a job at a company that uses a python tech stack. Their history is 5 years of php or similar and have only touched python briefly, but have a good understanding of the language and its pros and cons at a relatively high level. Would that person have a better or worse chance of someone applying (in your opinion) who had maybe 1-2 years of python experience and nothing else?
I made that scenario up in my head for a different reason. My thought is that if someone specializes in one language and learns small bits of another as well as programming in general best practices, it typically won’t matter what language they’ve become extremely proficient with, because the fact they have will carry them further than whichever language it is anyway.
karmic spear
Well, I would say that years of experience by itself does not matter.
It's a combination of hardskills,softskills and domain knowledge.
vapid jay
Fair enough, modify the years of experience to be years of proficiency then
Assuming those 5/1-2 years were both effective years as a deverloper
Domain knowledge is big too and I think that’s why I stay on the side that the language itself is not so important as a good developer can pick up syntax quickly
Or a seasoned developer I guess
Good is relative
karmic spear
Most of the times language knowledge is not a key factor. Because yes, you would need maximum few month to catch up with it.
The only problem with different languages could be approaches to the same problems. Try to build java-like interface-factory things in Python and you would quickly see people getting mad.
There are too many factors and variables in the decision to hire someone.
You can easily hire less experienced developer over experienced guy, just because
- you have a simple tasks to do and you know that experienced dude would get bored quite quickly
- if you know there is no place for him to grow in the near future
- you have already lots of senior level developers and hiring one more would only increase penis measurement clown fiesta on the meetings
Or the opposite
- You don't have much time to educate someone and you need one who can get up to the speed quickly
- You have a lack of a technical expertise
- You have a lack of a leader
- etc etc etc
vapid jay
Yep.. boils down to a company’s needs really
I’ve never been on the hiring side really but I know when I do I’d almost always rather hire someone I can see myself working with rather than a code monkey who sucks as a person.
karmic spear
Usually it's pretty easy to get to the hiring side, you just need to ask;)
slim island
i'll put anyone on interviews if they ask, it's a good experience for engineers
in the technical phase of our interview process we have the relevant lead + 1/2 engineers
vapid jay
My first job my boss didn’t let me. He let everyone but me for some reason especially girls lol
Small company. It pissed me off. Then one day someone told me to go in on one and they basically got reprimanded for it, it wasn’t even a performance thing, most of the app I was working on was written by me and the guy who told me I should be in on the interview
narrow lake
@karmic spear I agree with your point of view, an old timer (30+ years experience in the industry) once told me, don't learn how to code in Python, learn how to improve as a programmer instead, there's a difference!
it's not about what language you should learn or don't learn.
An advanced programmer will adapt in any programming language (in a matter of days in some cases) and solve big problems with it.
Once you get on that level, you will approach each project with the best tool for that particular project and not with the only tools that you know how to use.
upper fjord
@narrow lake That sounds like hella good advice!
slim island
except for Rust
the more you know other languages the more of an uphill battle Rust becomes!
main thicket
Sort of true. So hard to unlearn C and C++ bad habits
On the other hand, coming from C/C++ can mean you're used to the ideas where Rust is tricky already
warm sinew
Reading the history here, good topics
Glad I found a few dev communities (This and C#). I've been reading Infosec, Python, C# and OOP practice books throughout the year. Every time I think to myself 'I hate my job', I go home and read some more. Especially when I think 'My job isnt so bad', I realize it's Stockholm Syndrome and double down on reading. I just realized I have not really written anything this year. Learning other languages in my past, I always took apart other code and changes scripts to suit my needs. Then I realized I had a working knowledge to write code, and just terrible unmaintainable code
My current fork in the road is considering career paths. What's more available for entry level? What type of careers and industries is available based on language you learn? I understand it's also geographical.
karmic spear
What type of careers and industries is available based on language you learn?
well I think you need to shrink a set of languages here, otherwise that is going to be a long list
warm sinew
After studying, C# - Java - Python have all piqued my interest. C# has covered a lot of OOP for me. In the past I have freelanced PHP-MySQL-Javascript but I am avoiding web dev-specific technologies. I was once enamored by web development
twin quarry
If you don't have a degree, any realistic way to get a job if you become proficient with python?
vapid jay
@warm sinew if you hate your job and are bored at work, read on company time. nobody is gonna say anything if you're not slacking
vapid jay
@twin quarry build working things and make a portfolio that shows they work.
craggy wave
@twin quarry Ask lemon about it when he's online/around. He's managed to find himself a job without a degree. He did say he wouldn't recommend that route, but he can tell you how he did it.
vapid jay
You don't need a degree, and a lot of people with degrees are full of crap. Just show that you can do things. That's all that matters.
latent crystal
Hi, I'm thinking about joining Lambda Coding school, should I do it?
I have a 3.8 gpa but I'm dropping out of school cause I don't enjoy it
serene kindle
personally i think school is great
indigo sleet
You shouldn't drop out just because of that
We all have to do things we don't enjoy
wind mica
That, 100%.
latent crystal
but like, wouldn't it be better to just go forth on what I really want to pursue as a career?
serene kindle
i am a bit of a crazy person but, i believe that coding is like milk and computer science is like crackers
coding will expire soon but computer science will last longer
indigo sleet
No
wind mica
I dropped out after my first year of college, and I do have to say that I shouldn't have.
indigo sleet
You need the basic education
wind mica
I would be on a different path than I am now, but I wouldn't be struggling with learning my job while doing it.
indigo sleet
It looks terrible if you drop out
latent crystal
Okay then lol
welp I kinda just threw away my semester
I failed 2/4 of my classes
should I still consider school?
serene kindle
imagine if your coding for 30 years. and learn computer science for 2 years in college.
but 5% of computer science is applicable and 0.5% of coding is applicable from 25 years prior
wind mica
Okay
so attempt a bounce-back.
serene kindle
something like that
wind mica
Failing classes isn't the end of the world.
latent crystal
okay
serene kindle
personally i think getting a 1.5gpa of computer science is better than a 4.0 gpa in javascript
thats just me though
because 25 years later you can still use it
latent crystal
why is that?
serene kindle
because javascript will go through like 20 iterations by then
i mean javascript is a bad example but people are trying to go for react bootcamps
latent crystal
so why would computer science be good?
serene kindle
because it teach you to build things in a way that is resilient to time
for example if you learn a finite state machine, you can use it to build anything that changes with time
latent crystal
hm
serene kindle
i know its controversial
latent crystal
i don't understand anything you just said but okay
serene kindle
thats the point
latent crystal
should I still try to do both? or stick to one
like i signed up for a code school
should i just peace out now?
serene kindle
you can do code school after college
latent crystal
okay bet
latent crystal
i am an electrical engineer
serene kindle
oof
latent crystal
but I failed some classes and will get kicked out of the program
cause I'll have below a 3.5 gpa
and I was thinking about switching to CS but i thought it'd be better to just do a code school
hence why i came here
to ask you guys
ty for the advice
serene kindle
are you interested in machine learning at all?
latent crystal
i mean, idk waht that is llol
latent crystal
i just wanted a good salary, i also want to make apps/websites
serene kindle
if its EE i have no idea
latent crystal
no i want to switch to cs
serene kindle
but its so hard to mimic college outside of college
latent crystal
true
serene kindle
like its hard to walk up to some library and meet someone studying graph theory
something like that
even i am planning to go back to college
even after 5 year gap
just to learn the fundamentals
serene kindle
yes
latent crystal
ok
serene kindle
another way to think about it is
you can get paid to learn to code but never to learn CS
something like that
serene kindle
i mean all those CS engineers at top companies who suck at coding but great at CS, but they get 6 months of 'training period'
computer science
latent crystal
whats training period
serene kindle
its a bit of exageration but it seems to be the thing nowadays
so like when a company hires someone out of college, they have certain number of months where they are getting used to the software stack the company uses
for example their internal tools
latent crystal
oh okay
so whats the difference btwn someone who knows how to code and someone who knows computer science?
serene kindle
“Bad programmers worry about the code. Good programmers worry about data structures and their relationships.”
― Linus Torvalds
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1188397-bad-programmers-worry-about-the-code-good-programmers-worry-about
coders worry about 'did you use javascript, ecmascript, jquery or coffeescript', computer science coders worry about 'did you use graph or tree'