career-advice

[halcyon turret]

its a big problem

[limpid raven]

So then i have to go by what people say they are making

Welp time to do more research lol

Is anyone here a data scientist?

[little harbor]

@limpid raven
https://reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful
is rather opinionated on the subject

[serene kindle]

is it better to go to college or just make a startup

[boreal rover]

College I would say

The amount of people that make a good living out of college is way higher than the people who have a start up

[jaunty steppe]

If you want to start a startup, you can do that while also in college

[boreal rover]

And why not do both

[serene kindle]

i have to work through college

so its like super time consuming

ok college it is

[gusty stump]

be like zucc

herverd dropout

[cosmic moss]

if it is paid for college is great

not really necessary in this field though

I have a degree and it was a waste of money in the end

I work with a lot of people who saved their money and did not get the degree. Same title and everything.

[hollow mantle]

Yeah, decided not to go to college for CS. Just takes a lot of work to get yourself out there. Am going back for a degree in physics eventually though

[cosmic moss]

Nowadays especially, if you are responsible with your time and put in the effort, you can pretty much get the education online anyway.

How often Big O notation comes up in the office is pretty much never.

I think that college gives a solid understanding of how to think like a programmer with algorithm analysis, etc, but that's about it.

Still, you can get that from the book How To Solve It, and probably a shitload of other resources out there anyway.

[hollow mantle]

Some people don't learn from self-teaching easily. It really just depends on the person

[cosmic moss]

Yeah, exactly. If you're able to do it, then just teach yourself. If you're not, then I'd recommend college.

I mean the resources online are great; but you have to have the dedication, and I'm too tired atm to think of the other word, to be able to do it.

Still, this is a field where you have to constantly be learning, so if you can't learn on your own, it's going to be pretty hard.

Company decides to use Spark/Scala? You've got a whole new thing to learn, that sort of thing.

@limpid raven Yeah, I'm a data scientist.

[vapid jay]

Anyone have experience with staffing firms? A recreuiter contacted me about a position at a F100 through the company for a 12-month contract with the intent to be full time at the end of it but I've read mixed things

Pros: it would be very entry level and a good way to get in, as I've tried applying directly but no luck yet. They listed Python as a requirement so it seems I'm on the right track

Although cons, there may not be anything full time at the end of it available / position might not be a good fit etc. etc.

[little harbor]

@vapid jay
Charge more for contracts. They often hire people as "contractors" to avoid having to pay benefits, insurance, and stuff. You should charge like. 125-200%
They also tend to treat people like "not real employees" and act like you're the "new guy" again even when you're hired on for real, depending.
(in the US)

[umbral valley]

Depends on the company too

Like the staffing company

[vapid jay]

Hello guys

Which job is better, Software dev or Web dev?

[indigo sleet]

The one you like is better

[vapid jay]

In terms of salary and less difficulty

[hollow mantle]

If you mean Engineer vs Web, an engineer will usually get paid more (Senior vs Senior)

[vapid jay]

I see

[halcyon turret]

It depends what software

[hollow mantle]

True

[vapid jay]

Last question: Will both hold out against Automation of jobs?

[halcyon turret]

Well programming is how you automate things...

:D

[vapid jay]

xddd

[hollow mantle]

I would suggest using a different mindset to think about these jobs

[halcyon turret]

the risk to devs isn't automation its oversupply of labour

in their language of choice

[hollow mantle]

As a programmer, you're just translating ideas into a language that a machine can act upon. The role you take in a job will very greatly depending on what you want to do with that.

[vapid jay]

Well, I love technology and futurism in general. But I also dont want to end up unemployed due to automation.

[hollow mantle]

So if you like solving problems, become an engineer. If you like designing infrastructure, become an architect.

[halcyon turret]

programming isn't ideal for job security but its pretty good
best job security in UK comes from academia (tenure) followed by government work (civil service)

[hollow mantle]

If you know how to program, you will be able to find people that can use your skills

It just might not be exactly what you want at first

[vapid jay]

I see.

UK is a goner. I'm moving to either US or Canada soon.

[wanton holly]

US is hardly better

[vapid jay]

Even Software/CS jobs?

I'm an entrepreneur by nature though and I enjoy it naturally. But to achieve my goals, I have to learn how to be Soft eng pro. Going to dedicate this entire year and/or next just to be one. Wish me luck @hollow mantle

[halcyon turret]

UK isn't "a goner"

come to london lol

[vapid jay]

Problem with the UK is the healthcare

[halcyon turret]

UK has 100% free healthcare WTF

[hollow mantle]

I'm going to Denmark, but that's not really for programming

[vapid jay]

Couldn't work there, I'm in too bad shape 😛

@halcyon turret I heard its expensive though, and you barely make anything?

[hollow mantle]

I do mostly remote stuff so it's not an issue

[halcyon turret]

@vapid jay barely make anything doing what ?

[vapid jay]

Like money goes to all bills, costs, etc

You can't even buy a house there.

[halcyon turret]

not true at all

[vapid jay]

I see

[halcyon turret]

dude it depends on what your income is LOL

you can't make a blanket statement

[vapid jay]

True.

I dont much though, just asking curious questions.

London is still badly ranked when it comes to the cost of living

@halcyon turret Are you living in london?

[halcyon turret]

ye

[vapid jay]

Is it good? How long does it take to get a job?

[halcyon turret]

its impossible to answer questions like that
it depends on the person

[vapid jay]

I see.

Which top languages are for a good portfolio enough you dont have to compete ferociously for a job?

[halcyon turret]

in general in 2018?
something like Python, JS, Java or C++

those four are in high demand in general

C# if its a Microsoft stack place

[vapid jay]

I see.

Thanks a lot.

bad cpp flashbacks

[vapid jay]

I would also recommend learning a Functional language, just for opening your mind

might not be directly applicable, but it's an eye opener, really

[halcyon turret]

Yes :D Haskell

[vapid jay]

For instance yes 😃 As long as it allows him to understand FP

[little harbor]

@vapid jay C++, Java, Python are the powerhouses that drive the world, in order

[gloomy isle]

how is python/coding used in a maths environment at uni?

[halcyon turret]

Numpy and Scipy mostly

[gloomy isle]

what functions do those bring

i've never actually looked into them before

any of the data science/maths libs

does it come with an algebra grammar lol

that would be cool

[vapid jay]

Thanks for the suggestions @vapid jay @halcyon turret

[little harbor]

@gloomy isle
Statistical analysis, charting, data array break down, and more.
https://matplotlib.org/gallery/index.html

[fluid matrix]

@vapid jay Which top languages are for a good portfolio enough you dont have to compete ferociously for a job?
Among the powerhouse languages listed in this thread, Python is the most beginner friendly.
another aspect of programming that most beginners don't know is that, once you really get a grasp of programming concepts, learning additional languages get relatively quite easy.
for instance, most folks here who are quite advanced with python can learn JavaScript within a week only and start working with it.

So, here is my advice for you if you want to be employable fast.

STEP 1
spend 2 months with python (I mean a hell lots of practice) + 1 month with Django.

STEP 2
apply for an unpaid internship, with the skill level you might have around that time, an unpaid internship will be more easy to land than a dev job.

STEP 3
once you land that internship, give it your 200% effort because there are no tutorials that will give you the real world experience that a good internship will provide you. Things you would have learned in 1 - 2 years by yourself through a lot of trials an errors, you might learn them in only 6 months or less with a good internship.

STEP 4:
stick with your internship for at least 6 months, if you really put the work in chances are that they will themselves hire you as a Jr developer with a good salary. if you're not happy with the salary, at least around that time it will get easier for you to find work with that professional experience being in your resume and an interesting Github to show for it.

You can literally become a well-paid jr developer within a year if you follow this.

[frail wigeon]

@fluid matrix This actually helps me a lot since i'm about to apply for colleges, gonna keep your steps in mind.

[vapid jay]

@fluid matrix Thank you so much for the detailed advice.

[little harbor]

@fluid matrix Uh. Internships should be illegal and I really disagree with suggesting them. Maybe for an inexperienced person, it might help them switch.
But giving 200% means you're actually doing work as an intern, which isn't what interning is supposed to be about
being an intern should be about learning, not being an employee.
Never work for free companies don't give two shits about you.

[main thicket]

Yeah, I'm highly against unpaid work also. Especially in software which in most places should have many opportunities. Don't do work that benefits a company for free

[little harbor]

@frail wigeon @vapid jay ^

My understanding of interning is that it was built out of academia, so students could preview work life, before actually going into it.
The entire point of that is understanding the field, not doing a job.
If you work, you should always be paid for it.

[main thicket]

^^ unless the internship is completely of educational value, it's exploitation

In fact, where I am, it's illegal to have unpaid internships here if they aren't purely educational

[indigo sleet]

Not all internships are unpaid

And yeah they're more or less all paid for here

If not by the company then by the government

[main thicket]

@indigo sleet original message recommended getting unpaid internship

[little harbor]

and giving 200% so that they'd want to hire you

hustle is good and all, but it's better to show what you can do, and not give them anything.

I'd say.

1. Focus on popular skill sets.
2. Make a porfolio that shows the sorts of things you can build.
3. Make it all pretty.
4. Challenge yourself to do better.

[main thicket]

There's nothing inherently wrong with giving your best but yeah, I wouldn't be super committed to a place that doesn't pay you.

You have no obligation to give your best to a company that doesn't pay you. You're doing their work for free. Know your worth. Them giving you an unpaid job is not an act of charity.

[tawny quartz]

My paid internship gave me a lot of valuable experience and led directly to my current job.

Unpaid = bad, avoid these

Paid = good

[hollow mantle]

So this interview was an interesting one, but I thought I'd share what I did because it might help some people

As it implies, I didn't know the answer to all the questions he asked

I actually stumbled through quite a few, and rambled on from nerves

I think they liked me because when I didn't know the answer, I simply said "I don't know", then asked him for more information on the subject.

For example, one was "How does docker isolates it's environment?". I couldn't answer it, so I said, "I don't know, could you tell me about it?"

He seemed taken back at first, then we spent ~8 minutes talking about how docker works.

[karmic bramble]

nice

$42/h 👌

a man of culture 😂

[hollow mantle]

The intial offer was $60/hr

Still good though

[karmic bramble]

now you know the question that fits the answer

[main thicket]

Lol that happened to my position too

Initial offer was $66/hr but I had less experience than others so it dropped to $44/hr

Oh well, I'll get upgraded back to 66 at some point

[karmic bramble]

Anyway, I'd say straight out saying that you have no idea might not be the best. It would IMHO probably be better to say you are not sure, but you know this and that which is related, so you imagine something like this, to show you can think around the corner a bit and have at least an idea what is talked about

[hollow mantle]

I had talked about what docker is for and what it does. He was just inquiring if I had any further knowledge. He has 20yrs of experience, I didn't really feel like throwing a flimsy guess at him

[karmic bramble]

I had an internship once, where during the interview they sad, "sure, regular minimum wage of course", which would be like 8.50€ or so per hour, then later when I said yes they noticed they can (or want) not afford that and I got around 400 per month instead IIRC

[hollow mantle]

Ouch

[main thicket]

Oof

[hollow mantle]

People definitely appreciate when you're not afraid to admit you don't know something, and even more so if you express interest in wanting to learn

[main thicket]

My company (data science) hired me without me knowing any data science because I was good at maths and physics and willing to learn

[karmic bramble]

I mean, that was for three months right after school and before uni, and probably they wouldn't have had to pay anything by law, so it's still okay. I did another one before where I got less than that. Still that false/unfounded promise in the interview displeased me.

[hollow mantle]

I can imagine, jeez

[main thicket]

I probably wouldn't work for a company if they did that. Big red flag. The company is either trying to exploit you or are so unaware of their own finances, they don't know when they can afford a hire

[karmic bramble]

yeah, turned out to be like that

which is why today I am where I am now, and happy

[serene fjord]

$42/hr sounds really excellent

[celest anvil]

yeah is that in usd?

[fluid matrix]

@little harbor @main thicket @tawny quartz and to beginners who are reading this

If you read between the lines (in my previous post), you will realize that whether the internship is paid or unpaid, the winner still the beginner without much experience landing it.

Here is another aspect that some of us here are overlooking
it's easier to land a job as an experienced developer than it is for a total beginner. entry level jobs in the software development industry way more competitive than it was back in the days and many beginner now switching career are often fooled by outdated internet article stating that getting a job as a software developer is easy.
For beginners who don't believe me, go ahead try to find an entry-level job without an interesting GitHub and minimum field experience, see how many of this jobs you are going to land.

in life sometimes you have to see the bigger picture and swift enough to play the long game.
an unpaid internship is easy to land than a paid one, the objective here is to get your ass 😃 in the professional field as fast as possible so you can get an earlier overview of how working as a software developer is really like in real life (something that watching tutorial at home will never provide you).

Last but not least you being a beginner, giving your 200% in your internship will benefit you more than it will benefit the company whether we are talking about paid or unpaid internship.
Again, see the bigger picture, whether the unpaid internship last 6 months or less, it will be the switch that gives you an earlier competitive advantage in the entry-level dev job market and a turning point for THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

[tawny quartz]

Yes, however, you still have to support yourself while at the internship somehow, and often times I've heard unpaid interns get stuck with crap work.

[fluid matrix]

get an internship in a good company not a crapy one.

[tawny quartz]

It still happens at good companies

[little harbor]

Sure. Just be wary. Never blindly trust that management has any clue what they're doing.

[main thicket]

There are very very few "good companies" that wont pay their interns. I'm in an entry level job without an interesting Github (no finished projects pretty much) and no field experience, though I am aware I have it easier. It's just that there's so many paid internships, it doesnt really make any sense to go to unpaid ones

[fluid matrix]

@tawny quartz It still happens at good companies@little harbor Sure. Just be wary. Never blindly trust that management has any clue what they're doing.(edited)
It's not about the management, it's about yourself being swift enough to use the internship for your long-term benefit.

[tawny quartz]

If you're not getting any benefit but what you extract, it's not worth your time

[little harbor]

I've just been screwed over too many times.
People like me are often resented for walking in and telling people how to do it better.

[fluid matrix]

Anyway, that was just my 2 cents on this topic, for any beginner who is reading this, if you want to go ahead find a dev paid job, go for it.
see how many you will land and how long it going to take you.

Paid or unpaid internship, if you're not swift enough to know how to use that professional environment to your own benefit, you won't get much from it.
it's your responsibility to find ways to benefit from the internship! this has nothing to do with the management of the company! KNOW HOW TO USE OPPORTUNITIES and stop putting that responsibility to other people.

[tawny quartz]

I feel like I'm being called out with all the bolded text

[little harbor]

.> yeah. I can pretend to be happy, but I won't get money if others won't take responsibility.

is a realist.

[rare sand]

you're jaded.

[lavish condor]

what online job that pays u 500$ a month and u can work from home?

as a python dev

[lunar harness]

uhm

is $500 a month even good?

i think you earn a lot more online as a python dev

[lavish condor]

im a student

[lunar harness]

oh

maybe freelance?

[lavish condor]

and 500$ can buy more than 2000 bottle of cokes

[lunar harness]

yes

[lavish condor]

in my country

though haha

500 = 2000+ myr something

[lunar harness]

you can look to freelance online

[lavish condor]

want to work online coz if i work for local

i cant buy 2000 bottle of cokes

[lunar harness]

understoodable

speaking of freelancing

@rare sand you freelance right?

how do you find clients?

[indigo sleet]

No, he's employed

[lunar harness]

wat

i thought he said in voice chat one time he used to freelance

[indigo sleet]

Some time ago, yeah

But he's been working this job since before he joined iirc

[faint harbor]

i'm applying for jobs on freelancer sites but there is a lot of competition so i'm having to bid low

until my portfolio improves

[rare sand]

yeah I am not freelance.

[main thicket]

From what I've seen and heard from both freelancers in programming and engineering, leave freelancing till a bit later when you have experience and some connections you can rely upon. Very hard otherwise

[little harbor]

I should really develop a portfolio. I don't have anything that actually shows any of the things I've made.
I just have snippets that I made to share with people.

[tawny quartz]

Put your projects somewhere public, like a personal website, GitHub, GitLab, etc

[vapid jay]

Getting an entry job depending on the place can be very hard

Doing some random stuff on github can help a lot

[serene fjord]

@vague plover "random stuff" please elaborate on that

@tawny quartz what kind of projects are we talking; what is considered a reasonable effort as far as GitHub projects and a jr dev position goes?

[tawny quartz]

Dunno about a position

For projects just about anything

I dump all sorts of stuff onto GitHub gists and repos

Little scripts, dotfiles/configs, etc

[fluid matrix]

When it comes to the hiring process, most CTO here would agree with me that a jr developer who has experience working within a team has quite a competitive advantage over the next one who just practices tutorials by him/herself.

[vague plover]

@serene fjord what "random stuff"?

[fluid matrix]

that's what I thought

[vague plover]

I said it?Where?When?

[serene fjord]

that's what i'm trying to ascertain; what amount or quality of projects is handy to have when you're going about gaging if you're ready for an internship

[fluid matrix]

your Github has to be interesting, not just full

[vague plover]

It depends on what kind of job you're applying for.

[serene fjord]

what makes it interesting enough? how do i know i'm ready, or even a tenth of the way there

[fluid matrix]

@serene fjord have you tried to apply for an internship?

[serene fjord]

No, i'm working my way towards the first tenth of the way to being ready for one

but, that's partly why i'm asking, how much github/experience is enough to confidently apply for something.

[vague plover]

Do some reconnaissance on the organization you're applying for and see what technology/framework they use and make something good related to it.

[little harbor]

@serene fjord

1. Can you build things by yourself?
2. Can you use source control while you build things?
3. Can you build things with other people?
4. Are you familiar with the things that place in particular uses?

[fluid matrix]

@serene fjord see @vague plover reply

[vague plover]

I'm off, classes starting.

[serene fjord]

Cya Robin, cheers

@fluid matrix have you got any tip on how to get some exposure on what is out there?

[little harbor]

@serene fjord
Look at the job postings for that company.
They'll usually inform you of the stacks they use, what technologies and subjects they typically touch.
You might want to see if you can find any of the product/software they've put out so you can demo it and practice using it.

[serene fjord]

1. You could always improve at building something by yourself. So there's a range of things that are easier & harder to build. I don't know where I can learn more about this range.

2. I don't know about Source control. Sounds like devops to me.

4. I don't understand what you mean, sorry. @little harbor

Aiming for fullstack dev is probably a nice step to achieve !

[zealous bramble]

source control is not devops

[little harbor]

Companies often have a career page that has job postings./
They usually list "I want this person we want to hire to know these things"

Source control is like git and is important to track and manage any project at all. That alone is not what it means to do devops.

[serene fjord]

https://hackernoon.com/dont-be-a-junior-developer-the-roadmap-9fde5cf384bb?gi=5ac76f379172

[fluid matrix]

@serene fjord have you got any tip on how to get some exposure on what is out there?in general for a beginner, an internship would relatively be easier to land than a jr dev job.
Secondly, go to the company physicaly to deliver your request for internship letter!
90% of people don't do that, and that alone might single you out from the group.
remember that they get 100 of emails and not all of them are read!

[zealous bramble]

if you are in the US, it might actually be much more difficult to land an internship vs a jr dev job

internships can't be unpaid, and most companies are only considering people who are actively working towards a degree for internships

[serene fjord]

I am not in the US, actually

[fluid matrix]

@zealous bramble
Scenario:
Let say you're a CTO, and out of the blue, you receive a short (emphasis in the word short ) physical letter in your office coming from the reception desk. a request for internship's letter.
you notice the website address and the phone number, you check the website, and realize that this guy actually sells himself short by applying for an unpaid internship comparing to his Github.
you check his social media, notice that most of his interactions are tech related and when it's not, there's not much bullshit either!

Won't you call the number if you have an open entry-level position and try to schedule a meeting to find out if the person can fit with the company culture?

[zealous bramble]

no, because if i'm a CTO there are much more important things i could be doing

[fluid matrix]

lol

[serene fjord]

swap "CTO" for "manager"

[fluid matrix]

read this https://www.stackoverflowbusiness.com/blog/recruiting-and-hiring-from-the-cto-perspective

[hollow mantle]

@faint harbor Don't give up! When you're applying, submit for things that you normally wouldn't do too. All you really need is a couple projects to get the ball rolling. Pay isn't really important at this point, having something that proves you are capable will be what lands you future gigs.

[pastel orbit]

Aww, I thought that was a good post

[little harbor]

@pastel orbit I thought it was too negative. :/

@faint harbor @pastel orbit

1. People are shallow. They care about image. I suggest a visual portfolio and a nice code base that demonstrates working applications and theory.
2. People are lazy. They give up easily. Make it easy for them to parse, find.
3. People use tools. Figure out their common tools: linkedin, indeed, github, tagging, and recruiters.
4. Be friendly. Would you want to work with you for years? Are they going to be "stuck" with you?
5. Stand up for what you believe in. If they're hestitant, you need to lead, but you have to respect them if they don't want to go your way.
6. Actually have skillsets. On occassion, some employers actually do want actual work done.
7. Always Learn. Things get old. Understand that you must always take on new things.
8. Understand yourself. Set realistic milestones. Learn to gauge how long work will take you. Give yourself time.
9. Communication: Be clear about your milestones, your expectations. Be clear about obstacles and any delays. There are other areas that can help too.
10. Respect and take care of yourself. This is the most important. You MUST rest, find healthy escapes. Don't allow yourself to succumb to presure. Take it easy. Be yourself. Take breaks. Eat good breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Do not let the work overtake your personal life.

[pastel orbit]

Eh, it was blunt but I'm pretty blunt when I talk to people so I guess it was right up my alley.

[little harbor]

Keep in mind. People like us? me?
We think of things differently. We are used to different tools. Using things differently.
It's specifically difficult to find me, or information about me. I restrict as much as I can, purge histories, and whatever you find will be rife with inaccurate data to throw off tracking.
This does not help employers find me.

[strong quartz]

I'm a novice to Python, but I spend nearly every night doing tutorials and exercises from books. Should I put the jupyter notebooks from these on Github to demonstrate I'm actively working to improve my skills, or should I only use Github for actual (side) projects and actual 'useful' stuff?

basically, is quality more important than activity (e.g. regularity of commits)

[little harbor]

@strong quartz nothing wrong with making a specific project on github for notes. I keep a repo called "testing" when I want to remind/refresh myself on a concept.

[strong quartz]

thank you

[little harbor]

@strong quartz honestly, it's your github, who cares, you do you. 😉

[strong quartz]

I read github is becoming kind of like your resume, so that makes me hesitant to publish stuff there that I wouldn't want to put on my resume, e.g. random answers to textbook tutorial exercises

but if recruiters understand that there's your porfolio, and there's just random stuff you're messing around with, I should be okay

[karmic bramble]

You could also make a private repository on e.g. GitLab for free for stuff you don't want to present to the world

[strong quartz]

ok, thank you

[faint harbor]

❤ clueless 😄

[vapid jay]

Hi i just wanted to ask is the jo you guys do or some jobs with computer science related with a lot of maths because i'm not that good at maths how ever I'm very good at computer science

[wanton holly]

having a strong knowledge of maths isn't too important in many CS jobs, so don't let that hold you back.

[vapid jay]

It's stressing me out

People just laugh at me sometimes

[wanton holly]

you really should just try to ignore that and keep going.

[vapid jay]

Hmm I'll try

Thank you

[real python]

Math is very important for computer science but not necessarily critical for programming

[wanton holly]

oh yeah that's what i meant

[vapid depot]

@strong quartz I also share Jupyter notebooks and other things on GitHub, some of which are unfinished or collections of notes. I treat those repos like sketchbooks an artist has, to add context to formal finished projects or tutorial projects that are mentioned in my resume or cover letters. I'm also a beginner, however I have gotten a lot of positive responses from experienced Python people for it.

[vague plover]

@vapid jay I'm not much experienced but it depends on your area of choice,as far as I know.

[chrome sparrow]

why is knowledge of administration systems necessary for a junior webdeveloper

[halcyon turret]

because the backend runs on a Linux server and uses network protocols

[indigo sleet]

can't develop for an unfamiliar stack

[vapid jay]

Im just scared sometimes about math not being strong for me

[vague plover]

You'll get it eventually, taking stress about anything won't help in anyway.
If you're good at CS then be it. I'm not saying that mathematics isn't important, don't be proficient in it but don't be bad in it either maintain the balance and focus on your stronger areas but don't forget about weak one too.

[vapid jay]

Do you guys know what GCSE's are?

Or A - levels?

[wanton holly]

yup, doing my GCSEs next year

[solemn valley]

I know what's their equivalent in my country

[vast root]

i moderate an a level server 😄

[vague plover]

What is GCSE?

According to Quora, I gave my GCSE examination 2½ years ago.

[vast root]

its what we get in the UK

i think high school if you're american? not sure

[vague plover]

Here it's equivalent to our high school examination.

[vast root]

yea

[fluid matrix]

@chrome sparrow If you're a fast learner and can prove it, just apply and go to the interview. Be honest about what you know and don't.
sometimes the perfect candidate is not necessarily the one who knows everything on the posted checklist.

Skills can be learned but a good individual who fit the company culture and integrates well with the existing team is hard to find.

[fluid matrix]

This is the reason why some people have been able to land entry-level dev jobs under 4 months only of starting to learn programming.
there is more that is taken into consideration during these interviews than just your ability to code or your knowledge of everything on these posted checklists.

[halcyon turret]

If you have a degree some companies will train you from the ground up

[vapid jay]

I think some part of being a developer can't be taught. I think some people have a natural ability to map a problem into smaller, solvable chunks and then solve the problem, and I think some people don't and will never be able to.

Talking about algorithmic here

And no I'm not being elitist, as I think I'm on the "I'll never be a good developer" side, but well, I'm pretty good at designing and modeling software, so that's something 😃

[shy pollen]

i think in a computer science class thats called "computational thinking"

[vapid jay]

Great course yes, but I think it's one of those things where you "have it", or you don't

[halcyon turret]

If you put enough time into learning algos you can get good

[vapid jay]

I tired to reimplement all the algorithms of Rosetta code just based on their description and what they should do. It was hell of an epic fail :p

[real python]

"but I think it's one of those things where you "have it", or you don't" is not a particularly truthful statement for anything, really

And I would be hesitant to state it in a place where people are seeking advice

[vapid jay]

It's actually quite true for many things

[wanton holly]

i disagree. if you keep practicing, you can only get better. you'll get better at finding specific solutions to problems if you learn how to approach the problem effectively.

[real python]

It's extremely pessimistic and seems to be strongly tied to your personal experience

[vapid jay]

I call it realistic 😉

and I think that's a great thing*

[wanton holly]

i prefer being realistic over being too optimistic, but that is not what i'd call realistic.

(at all)

[real python]

Bad advice, either way

[vapid jay]

I don't think that's a bad advice, I think that's something to embrace

After 40 years of drumming 4 hours a day, I'm worst than Tony Royster Jr when he was 6

but that motivates me

He's born with a natural talent for it, I'm not

I could spend 24 hour a day, wouldn't change a bit, he has it naturally

[wanton holly]

i feel like that would be a problem with the way you're practicing then, honestly.

[vapid jay]

Or you're denying that some people can have gifts 😉

Mozart was 4 when he composed his first opera

[wanton holly]

i'm not saying that people can't have natural talent

[real python]

Being gifted is vastly different from saying you either have it or you don't

[vapid jay]

it's actually 100% the same

[wanton holly]

not really. you just learn slower if you're not gifted

and that's fine

but that doesn't mean you don't learn at all

[real python]

Either a brick wall or you aren't, I guess

[rare sand]

some people learn faster than others. it's not either you have it or you don't. mozart wasnt born musically talented. mozarts father, leopold, was a very successful violinist and composer and he instructed his children with fierce dedication.

talent is a spectrum.

[vapid jay]

Never said you don't learn, you will. But you'll end up just using what you saw on what you trained on, it's not something that comes out naturally, it's just that way because you were taught this way

[rare sand]

you have a very black and white view of this.

[vapid jay]

Yes, but I think that accepting it is actually a great thing

[zealous bramble]

anyone know how quick amazon gets back to you with results of your onsite?

[real python]

No it's not, it's incredibly limiting and terrible advice to give to someone

[vapid jay]

I don't think it's limiting at all

[wanton holly]

it's not limiting? how, by saying that you can't do this or that?

[vapid jay]

Did I say you can't do that ?

[real python]

lol

[rare sand]

if I understand what you're getting at, you're saying it can be healthy to accept that you will probably not be the very best in the world, because those elite few tend to have genetic advantages over you.

is that correct?

[vapid jay]

exactly

and that's a sane view

[rare sand]

if so, I agree. you'll never be john carmack. but you can be pretty damn good.

[halcyon turret]

That's reasonable we can't all be Mozart

We can probably all learn some algorithms though, which was the original thing we were talking about

[vapid jay]

you can learn some algorithms, yes

but how, given a problem, write an efficient algorithm to solve it

is another task

[wanton holly]

which i still think you can learn.

[rare sand]

of course you can. trying to quantify this is why everyone is fighting you.

[unique moon]

Pramp (100% free peer-to-peer mock technical interviewing platform) just released data science mock interviews (already supports data structures & algorithms, frontend, system design, & behavioral mock interviews) 🎉

Even the best candidates may struggle to communicate effectively under pressure within an interview setting. Mock interviews are an essential tool for preparing for the pressures of a live interview. Get the edge over other candidates by scheduling your first mock interview: https://www.pramp.com/dev/uc-data-science?utm_source=Discord&utm_medium=msg&utm_campaign=campaign

[indigo sleet]

I don't usually tolerate advertising but this does seem to be entirely free

[rare sand]

yeah that's nice

in fact

let's go ahead and pin that for now.

[fluid matrix]

@vapid jay

Granted, some people learn faster than others! however, solving problems is a skill, not a talent!
Sadly the school system never teaches this concept, and we all end up growing up believing that only extraordinary people can do extraordinary things!
case in point, if you are provided the right materials to learn from, plus let say $1 Billion on the table to solve a specific algorithm, I guarantee you that you will become a genius! LOL

the difference between genius and average is the amount of motivation required to learn a specific subject and invest enough practice and study to cultivate proficiency.

read about Einstein and other geniuses and notice how much time of their daily lives they invested in what they became known for, IT'S INSANE!

@vapid jay
Here is a resource for you.
One out of many
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgzpqlF54lo&list=PLKQ5LYb497AZIZe9dBWy8GwLluVaMQVj0

[main thicket]

Computational thinking, problem solving, etc. are far from skills you're born with. Like solving problem in maths, you arent born with it, you have to learn it. You have to practice. You have to keep challenging yourself to develop higher level critical thinking skills and let yourself grow.

Yes, it's not a skill you can directly teach someone in the way you can teach someone syntax. It is harder to learn than most other things because it requires motivation and cognitive effort on your own part. But that doesn't mean it cant be taught at all. In a learning institution, you cant really teach computational thinking, but what you can do is give people problems and show them some previous solutions so that they have countless opportunities to develop those skills.

As someone who's been teaching (and been successful in helping!) maths and physics to many brilliant kids who "arent math people" or "just arent made for physics", it sucks to see the same learned helplessness propagate to other things such as programming. The variance in natural talent is far less than the variance in talent due to diligent effort. No one is born being able to do calculus or electrostatics or recursive solutions to problems. You have to invest time in yourself constantly over a long period of time to help yourself be the best you can be and that's something to be admired.

[hasty marsh]

@main thicket Very well said 🙌

[radiant tapir]

I know who I'm pinging in the future 😛

@main thicket (uplifting post, hits me in the feels)

[fluid matrix]

@Raggy#0001 I like your view on this topic.
maybe we should build a startup together! LOL.

But on a serious note, a lot of programmers don't know these facts and it's not their fault either.
@vapid jay I hope all these, gave you a better perspective on this topic and helps you to further your career in software dev industry.

[lunar harness]

that post was motivating

[torn trout]

I need someone to talk to about what I wanna do in my future (career). I guess this is where to do it?

[rare sand]

yep!

[torn trout]

Well

umm

So I don't want to sound like a spoilt kid

But I want to be able to live of more money than the average person

44 thousand a year in the uk

on average

Shortly, I want to be "rich"

you could say that

And I heard the "Go to school, get good grades and get a job" sitting in an office all day not enjoying myself plan for life

That's not what I want to do.

I want to be able to live life and enjoy myself.

I came up with 3 careers I could take.

1. Computer Programmer

Pros:
Can generate a lot of income.
You can code at home/wherever you want: no office.
Brings in a lot of opportunities.

Cons:
I don't find it fun, and whenever I want to try and learn I keep getting dragged off because I do not see why I should do it.
At first there is really low income, disabling myself from living like a normal person.

[green sinew]

Other high paying jobs?

[real python]

Computer programmer has really low income?

[green sinew]

Working on oil rigs? Lawyer?

at first

[torn trout]

If you start out then yes

[halcyon turret]

be a doctor

[green sinew]

Doctors yes

[halcyon turret]

fix peoples foot

[green sinew]

Dentists

Vets

[torn trout]

I know there are jobs everywhere.

[real python]

It's highly unlikely that a programmer is going to make less than the average salary of the entire country

[torn trout]

If you are starting out in your 20s and doing stuff in a team you get rougly 21 grand

[real python]

Not a chance

[torn trout]

However, if you are a senior developer you can get 100 grand give or take

[green sinew]

@real python he is actually about right for Britain

[torn trout]

Unless you create the next Amazon or Facebook

[green sinew]

It's not great here

[torn trout]

I am in Britain.

[green sinew]

Compared to other countries

[real python]

So to summarize your request, you want to make as much as someone senior in their field, as an entry level person

[torn trout]

So I have hard termss.

[green sinew]

(Scotland takes down our average Alot)

[torn trout]

No @real python

I do not expect to get a lot in week 1.

That's obvious.

[halcyon turret]

if you want to start on high pay
your options are limited to mostly stuff like banking/law/management consulting

which require a good degree

[torn trout]

I know of a plan with Real Estate

Buy houses while still living on uni campus and get paid for people living in them.

Although you need a lot of work experience to get a loan

and then you need to pay all that back

[halcyon turret]

if you are able to afford a house
then great
but this isn't an option for most 😮

[torn trout]

This is what I was thinkink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o3NVOQp4jo

[halcyon turret]

property subletting is indeed a good investment
but you need to have the money for it

[torn trout]

That's where getting a loan comes in.

My plan is to get assistanceship / scholarship at some uni

and live on campus

then get a decent job and get a loan and house

from the people renting it I could pay the loan

and save up some money for another house

And so on

I think a scholarship would be quit achievable in my case

Not bragging.

[halcyon turret]

but you live in UK?
we don't have so many scholarships like America does

[torn trout]

Yes. I was planning to go to the U.S.

Call me crazy, but I wanted to get to stanford.

:p

I am crazy.

[halcyon turret]

that's not crazy
my friend lived in UK and went harvard

it's hard to get in but u can do that

[torn trout]

yeah

Cause I can not support myself

in stanford

not even near

[halcyon turret]

I think you are gonna struggle
to enter the subletting industry
right out of college

[torn trout]

Yes;.

I will need to get a job.

A decent one so I could get a loan.

And I do not mean a 10k loan.

[halcyon turret]

the average deposit on a house in the UK is £33,000 deposit

[torn trout]

Also, watch that video. It tells you what I mean exactly, except for him showing off his house for half the time

🤤

which means?

[halcyon turret]

this means that to enter the subletting industry in the UK
on average
you need £33,000 in cash on hand

[torn trout]

Wait, so is £33,000 what I need to get a loan, or what I need to buy a house

[halcyon turret]

to get a loan

[torn trout]

Okay.

[halcyon turret]

in the UK £33,000 deposit is the average paid upfront to get the mortgage

[torn trout]

So I would need to save up 33k, then the loan would cover the house's price?

[halcyon turret]

yes

this is only average number but ye

[torn trout]

And with the money I got I would need to pay back the loan.

And whatever else I have on hand.

[halcyon turret]

ye

the income from subletting one house, after mortgage payments, is not that large

[torn trout]

yeah

[halcyon turret]

this is kinda an issue because the income from first sublet is not enough to easily get deposit for second

[torn trout]

Do you already have a job and stuff?

hello?

What happened there?

[halcyon turret]

Ye I work in banking industry

[torn trout]

So you get a decent amount of cash?

If I may

[halcyon turret]

Any profession like banking/law/medicine pays well

So does programming if you are senior enough

[torn trout]

That takes a lot of time

[halcyon turret]

It depends on the language but yeah more senior programming positions can ask for like 5-10 years with the language, for example

[torn trout]

I also thought of being an EA sports professional gamer but that would get me nowhere in terms of income. At least not quickly. With all the competition that kinda sucks. But in the sense of what I like and hate I would choose this.

[halcyon turret]

Getting a good income from Pro Gaming is for absolutely exceptional people
And almost all of those that manage are Dota2 players not any other game

[torn trout]

Well

what about CS:GO and rainbow six?

I hardly know dota 2 but CS:Go

oof

After londom major

[real python]

You're talking at least 10-12 hours a day sitting in front of a computer

[torn trout]

it got big

[real python]

Which is probably worse than an office job

[torn trout]

I'm fine with that. Also, what about a programmer? You also sit by the pc?

And what about travelling? (As a team)

[halcyon turret]

Pro Dota2 is an incredibly tough lifestyle
Enormous pressure, zero security, tons of travel
And careers are short

[torn trout]

security?

[halcyon turret]

Job security

[torn trout]

I am fine with playing games, streaming, travelling all my life

[halcyon turret]

Okay but your chances of making a living with that are very small

[torn trout]

It is my dream job. Although realistically, chances are low.

[halcyon turret]

Ye

[torn trout]

Exactly

Think of people like AliA

apart from the memes

he lives in a nice home, nice car

seems fine to me

[weary gazelle]

what's the connection to python here?

[torn trout]

Nothing

It is a careers channel

😄

[halcyon turret]

We need to leave :O

[torn trout]

world of work

?

😉 😉

[halcyon turret]

Come offtopic dood

[torn trout]

kk

wait

what channel is that?

[halcyon turret]

#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[vapid jay]

only dota lol

hearthstone, csgo, lol, rocket league..

if you don't count streamers

[halcyon turret]

Look at esportsearnings.com top 100
Its like 90% dota players

[vapid jay]

Getting a good income from Pro Gaming is for absolutely exceptional people
And almost all of those that manage are Dota2 players not any other game

I guess we understand good income in a different way

[real python]

#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[little harbor]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/9r9mqd/61_of_entrylevel_jobs_require_3_years_of/

[hollow mantle]

I just completed a code assesment for a part of an interview process. Thought you guys might be interested in what it looks like

https://hastebin.com/sayapehimi.py

Not my best work, nervous and hasty

Questions are at the bottom

[lean stirrup]

what did you do for this? not seeing it atm
`# 1) On the Order class, write an instance methods for each of the keys in the

in the json ("id", "stock_id", "price", "quantity_filled", "quantity_unfilled",

"type", "create_at") and return the corresponding value of the original json.

Please do not modify the original values.`

[hollow mantle]

class Order:
    def __init__(self, order: dict):
        for name in order:
            setattr(self, name, order.get(name))

I missed the method part, but hopefully they don't mind too much

the fix would be setattr(self, name, partial(order.get, name))

I had partial imported becuase I was thinking about it, but I ran out of time

@lean stirrup

[lean stirrup]

ah, ok makes sense

[little harbor]

I interviewed with a tech giant today for an hour, and the experience kinda sucked. :/

I then interviewed with another placement company for 3-4 hours, and that was awesome and enjoyable.

[vague plover]

Can you tell about the experience?

[little harbor]

I happen to know people that worked for this tech giant, thanks to my experiences with them, I know myself to a perfect candidate for this employer and them for me.
They are the scale and experts that can probably challenge me best to raise the bar.

On the other hand. I am a harsh and serious critic that doesn't like to settle, so some teams aren't a good fit for me.
I don't put up with bullshit, and I won't settle for people telling me "well you don't know", because they're wrong.
I want to kick their ass and I want them to kick my ass.

---

So this tech giant gave me a coding challenge that while small and relatively simple, it was a stupid brain teaser.
It's the type of problem that no on really ever has, because the problem makes no sense.
(it didn't help that the phone quality was low, my interviewer had an accent (otherwise perfect english) that made it hard to understand the requirements)
The problem with a brain teaser like that, is it's annoying as hell to figure out the proper solution for without your tools and more time.
and it doesn't demonstrate anything about knowing how to build working applications.

---

Same day, one of those friends I mentioned before linked me to a placement company.

• You take a hard online test. If you "pass" you get to pick a time slot for a 2 hour interview over video
• I passed, oh hey, they had a slot in 2 hours.

This was fantastic.

• The first code interview was an actual simple application, I had the structure written out well enough, ran out of time.
• Technical questions exploring my knowledge in general software development, databases, data structures. Those are my weaknesses, but I knew a bit.
• The second code interview was to search out and solve several bugs in a prewritten application they had. Solved half of them, ran out of time.
• More technical questions about effienciency and scaling with a database.
• I got to ask the obviously experienced interviewer's background and learned about what he'd touched. Cycle precise emulation of hardware arch. Awesome.

Was a nice experience.

[karmic spear]

The problem with a brain teaser like that, is it's annoying as hell to figure out the proper solution for without your tools and more time.
and it doesn't demonstrate anything about knowing how to build working applications.(edited)
those are actually much better than building anything like simple AUTH app or any RESTful shit.

The purpose of that kind of challenges is to check out your decision making. The best thing you can do is to give a candidate NP-complete problem and then ask him to justify his solution

[rare sand]

I super disagree. testing that kind of deeply formal stuff completely eliminates candidates without academic backgrounds.

[main thicket]

It's worth testing for formal CS background where that's relevant (compiler dev? algorithmic af jobs?). Otherwise, it's irrelevant and just a crappy artificial barrier that's irrepresentative of the performance of the applicant for that specific job

[rare sand]

for probably the majority of real developer jobs, simply being able to build something is enough. but yeah what raggy says makes sense to me.

[vague plover]

@little harbor You had a job of recovering cryptocurrency accounts,right?
If I may ask why you left that job? I mean it's was not good or some other, I want to know about because it's kinda related to security which I'm interested in.

[hollow mantle]

The place I'm interviewing with hasn't asked me once about education, they're only looking at my current ability. This makes me think they actually know what they're doing. The people I interact with are obviously experience, and that's largely why I'm being considered.

If you are applying for a place that doesn't have the resources to accurately asses your ability, you're going to have a much harder time getting accepted, because they will rely on your degree for assurance.

Start-ups are the best place to look imo, because they are typically small and involved.

[tight marsh]

I'm not big on esoteric algorithm questions either but I don't see them as inherently bad (or that companies that ask these questions don't know what they're doing). If I'm hiring someone to stitch together proven APIs to make a product, I'll certainly lean heavily on practical experience and probably ignore their education. If I'm hiring someone to work as an SDE in our data science team, I expect them to be able to do some level of formal algorithm design. That places the onus on me to make sure my job descriptions are clear, I'm not big on sandbagging candidates with shit they don't expect.

[little harbor]

@vague plover sorry if I gave you the wrong idea. I didn't specifically have a job recovering cryptocurrency.
I'm a mod in several spaces and have time advising people how to secure their stuff.
I've helped recover around 100 BTC, and escrowed some amounts as well.

[vague plover]

Oh, I was the one who misunderstood, I guess.

[celest anvil]

is learning kotlin for career unrealistic and I gotta dwi and use java?

[halcyon turret]

For android dev kotlin is big

[main thicket]

it's not unrealistic at all

many many developers know many languages, one of which is often a slightly less popular language (kotlin, scala, rust, whatever)

[halcyon turret]

I expect most long-term Java devs have learnt at least one other JVM lang yeah

[lavish condor]

so realistically, how many languages I need to know to become a python web developer?

[solemn valley]

technically you can do what counts as webdev with only python

[lavish condor]

hm

[wanton holly]

for backend development, python alone is probably enough. however, a good frontend usually has HTML/CSS (maybe JS)

[lavish condor]

I see.

[green sinew]

Look at what top companies use.

They will have the same popular languages and then smaller ones

Depending on what they like

Generally the hardest barrier is to get good at one lanuage

[lunar harness]

hey @limpid raven i think this is a better channel to ask your question. There are probably people with better answers in this channel to your question.

[lavish condor]

So they say if you want to become something then you should pursue it by following the step to becomes it
If I want to become a python web developer, what should the step I take next?

As for my progression:
I learnt python basic from cleverprogrammer.com and freecodecamp video youtube
I learnt python oop from corey schafer youtube
I can make guessing game.
I can make dice rolling game
I can make bmi calculator

And this all is text-based.

They said take a break and do something you love and while that you can improve your language,
so I did all the 3 projects above, but still wondering is this right?

Now I wonder what the next step in order to become python web developer? maybe freelancing...

I don't feel the need to rush but I don't know what I should learn next in order to pursue that "goal" of mine.

p/s : I'm a self-taught. :p
sorry if this vent sounds selfish and annoying to you.

[little harbor]

@lavish condor
flask, django, jinja2, SQL, uswgi, nginx, html, css
UI design, UX design, typography, graphic design

[lunar harness]

@lavish condor If you learnt the basics of python and want to move to web development, you need to learn the basics of web development as well. I would say you should start to learn the basics of HTML and CSS (frontend). The basics in my opinion are easy but css can get complex. Then you should pick a web framework for Python, so you can work on the backend side of things. I used to recommend Flask to beginners but Django has changed a lot and I really think that it is beginner friendly. To get started with Django, I would watch Corey Schafer's series on Django 2.0. I haven't watched it myself but I do know that Corey is a great teacher. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmljXZIypDc&list=PL-osiE80TeTtoQCKZ03TU5fNfx2UY6U4p

[little harbor]

@lavish condor also, seriously

do not underestimate design and how important it is. It's not just "making it work" it's making it work in a way that people can use it easily, well, intuitively, without having to be taught.

some mockups I made to demonstrate several ideas in UX to someone I hired.

[lavish condor]

Oh my god, thank you so much, you don't know how much I need all of these, bless both of you

Now I don't have to be lost in thought.

[lunar harness]

:D

[little harbor]

@lavish condor I have a ton more if you want to get in the mindset.

takes a deep breath and cracks his knuckles

https://www.reddit.com/r/DesirePath/ User Wants
https://youtu.be/vVX-PrBRtTY?t=41 - Gall--Peters Projection
https://youtu.be/bs5Qja04v8U - Hidden Tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxkrdLI6e6M - Dark Patterns
https://youtu.be/gXTnl1FVFBw - Ghost in the Shell: Identity in Space
https://youtu.be/n1b7piSmmME - Behavioral Economics

Pay attention to what your users do, how they use your apps, what they want.
They will seek every edge, every corner they can cut. Don't fight them
Make it easier, smoother, bigger, faster. Don't surprise them. on and on.

[lavish condor]

@little harbor Alright I'll keep that in mind, thank you very much 😭😭😭 only god can repay your kindness

[halcyon turret]

no anime

[faint harbor]

if you have a budget for books (or access to decent library services) Head First Design Patterns by orielly and sun's designing visual interfaces are very good for helping you understand design patterns and ui/ux design

[lavish condor]

noted

[halcyon turret]

Orielly books are gud

[lavish condor]

I see

I'll try to get my hand on that

now need off to school :p cya

[real python]

@smoky ferry please read the channel description, this channel is not for recruitment

[smoky ferry]

oh my bad reading

sorry new to the channel

[real python]

No worries

[smoky ferry]

do we have a channel for recruitment?

[real python]

Unfortunately not at this time, sorry

[smoky ferry]

coolio

[lavish condor]

is javascript is a must too to become web developer?

[main thicket]

frontend yes

backend not as much

[lavish condor]

i see thanks

[shy pollen]

whats the best combination with python to get a job

python + c/c++?

python + js?

[vivid dock]

Js shouldn't be too hard to adapt to with python knowledge

[vapid jay]

it depends on wwhat job you want

if you go for web dev

js + html +css

[shy pollen]

Backend

Mostly servers and sometimes django

But talking about backend servers

[halcyon turret]

If you wanna do backend web dev still learn front end
It's better to understand both

Especially since some backend frameworks have templating for the front end and stuff like server-side rendering of front end components

Wouldn't recommend C or C++ for web

[vivid dock]

Maybe c# / .net framework for backend, but thats about what i know

[halcyon turret]

well there are like 40+ languages with backend frameworks

and you can literally use any of them if you choose

[vivid dock]

Those are the backend entry requirements around me at least

[halcyon turret]

in London there's a mixture of everything

[lost geode]

webdev will typically be frontend and shallow amounts of backend (attempting to manage more of their own stack)

deeper backend won't be denoted as webdev

it's like building a GUI and a backend

the web access is just another type of gui

web services (rest/soap) are kind of like a backend equivalent of (almost) webdev

it's really just connecting an inlet pipe to a backend system and not caring about a GUI

[halcyon turret]

I don't really agree
I think backend webdev still counts as webdev

[lost geode]

@halcyon turret how does the backend for webdev differentiate as different from other backends?

[halcyon turret]

Because most web backends like Django are specifically designed for web

So the difference is intention

[lost geode]

Django makes frontends as well

that one is fuzzy

[halcyon turret]

No Django is still called backend even if it can affect the front end

Because it runs on the server not in the browser

Same for server-side rendering, it's still backend even though you are rendering front end components

It's kinda just semantics though I guess you could say that Django templates make it "full stack" 🤷

But I prefer to refer to Django as a back end framework and stuff like react as a front end framework

hmmm 🤔

[maiden siren]

Hi hello... how good is python with unity? Like can I do AR with python? Sorry if it sounds silly

[halcyon turret]

python with unity is not a great idea rly

[solemn valley]

use C# with unity

[maiden siren]

But I heard boo is like python

[solemn valley]

yes but boo is not python

its syntacitically similar

[maiden siren]

Oh so no way to do AR/VR with python?

[halcyon turret]

python is not rly a good language for this

not fast enough

maybe panda3d? https://www.panda3d.org/manual/index.php/VR_Helmets_and_Trackers

[maiden siren]

Wow thanks for that

[daring parcel]

Has anyone interned at C1?

[lavish tinsel]

@halcyon turret why you not recommending C language as the backend?

[main thicket]

Not high level enough. Will make things a pain in general. Hard to do concurrency in so hard to scale too.

[zealous bramble]

laughs in Go

[halcyon turret]

if you want to write a web backend in C, you can

I don't want to though 😄

[vapid jay]

what is a programmer/analyst?

[halcyon turret]

could you be more specific ?

analyst can mean a lot of things

I guess usually using data

[hardy rivet]

Depends on the listing really. Companies use them in contradictory ways.

[humble elm]

is knowing unix/linux something that is important to companies? Or is that just something everyone knows and they just assume it?

[halcyon turret]

again that depends on the job and what OS they have

they might not have linux desktop or servers

[vapid jay]

@halcyon turret most of companies (%95) runs python applications on linux. @humble elm yeah it is important

[halcyon turret]

I guess those running Windows Server would be morel ikely to use ASP.NET to go full microsoft stack 🤔

[tawny quartz]

@humble elm It depends on the job. Many tech positions will assume at least some knowledge of Linux/etc unless they're a primarily Windows organization.

[vapid jay]

@halcyon turret i meant python componies

[halcyon turret]

but where did you get your 95% number from

roughly 30% of websites are hosted on windows server https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/operating_system/all

[main thicket]

every Dev should know how to use Linux

Linux makes the world go round

[vapid jay]

Depends on what your target is

If you're a C# dev, well

[faint harbor]

most analyst jobs i've seen advertised refer to a team member who specialises in systems analysis

[pliant stream]

Just had my first python job inteview

I've bombed it, but now I know what should I focus on

[hexed lily]

@pliant stream what should you focus on?

[little harbor]

honestly, interviewing sucks
I dislike people trying to outsmart me and distracting me as they test me, and stressing me out over bullshit.

[rare sand]

not very constructive.

[little harbor]

Just heard back from my last two interviews. Just really annoyed by their responses.

[tight marsh]

Are you sure they were trying to outsmart you? I know that's often the perception but sometimes the interviewer is just trying to see how far you can go. I like to ask candidates follow-up questions if my problem seems too easy for them. Use less secondary storage, can you make it O(lgn), etc. They already got the marks for answering the question right ,and quickly, but I also like to know how deep we can delve. If they're struggling we simply switch gears to the next question.

[little harbor]

@tight marsh
These interview responses were:

1. You didn't get as far as we wanted you to in the interview application.

2. You don't know formal math/algorithms/data structures.

3. I have ADD and interviews are distracting and stressful as hell.

4. I usually don't need formal math knowledge. 90% of the time you don't. I'm working on it, but that's a stupid reason not to hire someone.

Also, that ignores my many other skillsets.

I had another interview that immediately treated me like I was full of shit because I couldn't define "perfect forward secrecy" off the top of my head.
that hasn't stopped me from using cryptographic libraries in many of my projects. It's all arbitrary.
and sure, that's a basic concept, and I understand the concept, but judging me on not defining it formally...

[zealous bramble]

Never really had too much of an issue with modern SWE interview formats. Most of the technical questions I've been asked haven't been extreme brain teasers; just basic applications of common data structures (mostly hash maps).

Spoke with a friend of mine who just started interviewing candidates at Facebook and he said there's a lot more good faith than you'd think. It's not always a guarantee that you won't get hired if you don't get the perfect solution right off the bat (or at all).

[main thicket]

Agreed, I don't know many interviews that aren't done in good faith. They want to see what you've done and what you haven't. Heck, for me they've sort of almost forgotten to ask too many technical questions because I've won hackathons and done projects and they prefer to hear about how I went through them technically rather than ask me very technical questions. That may or may not be because I'm still in early career but they've both been interviews in ML in pretty competitive places.

I was still asked technical questions of course but they were sort of mumbled towards the end because my experience clearly showed they were a bit easy for me.

[steep fractal]

So tomorrow I should have my final talk with the HelloFresh HR spokesperson after 1 coding challenge, and three interviews (one with HR, one technical interview, and one cultural). I'm kind of freaking out because there wasn't any mention about an offer in the email. Just about discussing the entire interview process. At least it seems to me as if they just want feedback about their process before they tell me I've been rejected. I wish they would've told me beforehand

[umbral valley]

@vapid jay .net core runs on Linux. Even C# devs should know some nix.

[vapid jay]

Doesn't mean one would use c# to develop a Linux application. I know developers who develop purely on Windows, and honestly they don't really have time to bother with Linux

[paper sorrel]

use mono framework?

[deep portal]

I agree @umbral valley *Nix has tremendous value and reward upon learning how to use it and adapting to the unique ways that it really shines as a dev platform.

[vapid jay]

I never said Unix is bad, it's even the only OS I use on a daily basis. It's just that I don't think that knowing it is mandatory for a developer, it highly depends on what you're targeting. Just like the opposite, knowing how Windows works internally is not mandatory if you never target Windows...

[wide willow]

a.i

[little harbor]

just had another interview, ugh, over skype. and the person's name didn't match the skype name, and they wanted the last 4 of my social.
They're doing it wrong.

[rare sand]

that sounds legitimately sketchy

I mean I'm happy to give my ssn to an employer but not at an interview stage :/

[little harbor]

luckily, they gave me enough information about who they're trying to contract for, and I can bypass them and apply directly. 😛

[rare sand]

be careful with that

people have been shitlisted for that kind of thing and those agencies have some reach

[little harbor]

that's not legal.

[rare sand]

that's true but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen

[little harbor]

is supressing some seriously violent speech.

[rare sand]

I mean if some agent basically facilitates the contact between you and some company, and you go behind the agents back and get hired directly by the company?

you're just stealing that agents lunch money

he did the job and didn't get paid

both the candidate and potentially also the company will be less popular with that agency

[little harbor]

sure, but if they do it right, I wouldn't care to do the work for them to bypass them.

[indigo sleet]

As if they care

They'll still be pissed

[rare sand]

you fuck with someones bread money, you might piss them off. and I'm just saying that you may potentially be biting the hand that feeds if that someone has the right connections. headhunters and contracting agents often have vast networks.

just be aware that it's kind of a minefield.

I would not fuck with that, personally. and if I did I'd be subtle as fuck about it.

maybe wait a few months or something

but I might just be paranoid about it

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[little harbor]

you're absolutely correct, but they have no right to be pissed off, and I'm the type of person that can bitch slap them.

[rare sand]

haha, okay

good luck with that

[hollow mantle]

Also just a dick move, inconsiderate to all the work they did to find the opportunity

[little harbor]

uh, to reorient what just happened.
This shady company setup a shady interview, and asked for shady security information relative to my identity.
No, bypassing them is no a dick move.
Corporations don't have a right to survive. If they can't be bothered to treat us with respect, I have no patience for them.

@rare sand feel free to purge these messages, wasn't my intention to blather on in the #career-advice channel. I don't want to be a buzzkill for others. I'll probably delete/clean mine up if you don't. 😛

[hollow mantle]

The middle-man company I'm working with has been fantastic. Honestly has taken a lot of the shit I didn't like out of contract work

[rare sand]

we're not big on purging messages here.

[little harbor]

@hollow mantle oh sure, some do it right and are fantastic. This other company really gave me extra effort and pretty good improvement suggestions.

[rare sand]

takes away from conversation coherency

[hollow mantle]

Also keep in mind if said company has already established contact with company A about you, and you show up independent, company A could think less of you regardless of the context

[little harbor]

I can't control my anger on this subject and I don't think this is the appropriate channel.

[fluid matrix]

@little harbor luckily, they gave me enough information about who they're trying to contract for, and I can bypass them and apply directly With this mindset, you will have a very hard time getting in higher places in your career as well as in the industry in general!
if you don't believe me, don't change your ways and notice how difficult and slow your progression will remain.

[indigo sleet]

I don't think I'd employ that

[rare sand]

your instincts seem to have been right when you said I can't control my anger on this subject and I don't think this is the appropriate channel., too bad you didn't follow those. Let's go ahead and leave this channel to people who want career advice, and no more using it to vent about how you hate people / corporations / the government.

[rare sand]

I think I made it clear this wasn't the channel for this

nor, in my personal opinion, even the server.

[indigo sleet]

yeah, this is getting a little too crazy for my tastes as well

[real python]

Purged the BS. You've been given great advice on multiple occasions and refuse to listen to any of it, instead choosing this channel as a platform to rant. The purpose of this channel, and this server, is to help people, not give you a platform.

[novel fossil]

anyone has a pyhton developer job for an indian

[indigo sleet]

We don't really have any recruitment system right now

[green sinew]

Would you guys say the IT market as a whole moves all over the place?

Or just certain parts of it?

Like where job opportunities are how many there are etc

[vapid jay]

Web dev was the thing, now I feel like AI and data science has taken the lead

[green sinew]

Sounds about right

[jaunty steppe]

Most of the market stays relativly the same

[vapid jay]

I see more and more companies looking for Python + R developers

At least in my country

[little harbor]

@green sinew geographically, or skillsets? Because "yes"
Seattle as an example has seen huge growth in people moving here.

[faint harbor]

fun little fact. every time I tweak my cv and upload it I get a bunch of recruiters approach me 😛

[green sinew]

@little harbor do you see Alot of foreigners moving to America?

[little harbor]

I don't know anything statistically, but judging on the difference of mixed races in Seattle versus Texas, yes.

[vapid jay]

Salaries are tempting, though I couldve to the US because of its healthcare system, or lack thereof

[vague bloom]

AI and data science is huge

Companies pay data sci interns a lot

[twilit adder]

AI is huge but not lots of cpsc ppl know how to do it

Its rlly math heavy and lots of kids lack those abilities

[main thicket]

^^^

Take a statistics or applied maths degree alongside your CS degree for a career in AI. You'll thank me

AI is very little programming and mostly just maths

[pure cargo]

hello there! I wanted to ask yall that from where can I start learning about datastructure and algo for python? My goal is to slowly move towards software devlopment and be able to code interview for software from leetcode.

[main thicket]

@pure cargo CLRS! it's a great book. Also see cracking the code interview for interviews specifically

[pure cargo]

@main thicket can u send the link for the book

[main thicket]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Algorithms

http://www.crackingthecodinginterview.com

[tall epoch]

@pure cargo http://interactivepython.org/runestone/static/pythonds/index.html

[pure cargo]

@tall epoch thank you so much! If I follow this in the order given I should be good to go?

[tall epoch]

Yes and then practice lots on sites like leetcode

[unreal nexus]

College freshman here, with an interest in Network Security. The book, "Violent Python" was recommended to me, does anyone have any other suggestions of online courses or books to pick up? I have basic experience (1 semester college) in Java and C++, so I don't really need anything to go over loops/functions/data types/etc.

[vapid jay]

No point on going through violent python if you don't know python

[vapid jay]

Question

is physics required for Artificial Intelligence?

[solemn valley]

If the thing you are trying to teach it is not physics related no

[vapid jay]

hey for a startup I own that competes against slack we are trying to decide wether or not do use graphql or simply do restful apis any thoughts

like on the implications of it with django

we will also be running this on ec2 aws servers

[main thicket]

@vapid jay not at all

someone with a physics degree benefits from the maths they learnt then but there's 0 point learning physics for AI

[vapid jay]

oh okay

[zealous bramble]

No offense but I think if you're competing with slack, a service that is very well established, and you're hung up on deciding between using graphql or restful apis, then that doesn't exactly bode well for your startup.

[split tulip]

about the discussion earlier

what's wrong with applying directly behind the headhunters back

In Europe this is common practice I think

[indigo sleet]

It's not, really

It can get you blacklisted by recruiters

[rare sand]

if you're approached by a headhunter initially and then turn them down but then go directly to the company instead and ask them to hire you? that's just a dick move. obviously.

if you've never been approached and you go directly to the company that's a different matter

[thorny hound]

Why is that a dick move?

Didn't the company hire the headhunter?

[little harbor]

@split tulip @thorny hound
Headhunters are hired to bring people in, if you bypass them, they don't get paid, and it can backfire on you.
As with everything, the ethics of it depends on the situation, if you wish to discuss those you can hit me up in offtopic.
It's just that this channel's focus is on more positive discussion to help people approach careers.

We recommend more friendly approaches. 😃

[thorny hound]

Hmmm... You managed to pack a lot of subtext in that.

[fluid matrix]

@split tulip about the discussion earlier what's wrong with applying directly behind the headhunters back In Europe this is common practice I think I doubt that there are places in the world where this is considered to be ethical.

[thorny hound]

I can see how it would be a bad idea to bypass headhunters, but not how it would be unethical.

Companies usually have a careers page on their website, on which they tell you how to apply.

[split tulip]

so many headhunters here 😹

[fluid matrix]

@thorny hound You obviously weren't following the conversation!
there's nothing wrong with going to the company website and applying.

What got people talking in this topic is a different scenario.

---

@split tulip nah, I don't think so!
it's all about common sense and moral compass

[vocal stump]

what colleges do you guys suggest for coding in general? like a comp-sci degree

[obsidian acorn]

I don't think the college itself matters

what do you want to do exactly?

[vocal stump]

i want to learn like machine learning and compsci

[slim island]

real talk, by the time you finish your degree the supply of ML graduates will exceed the demand. If you go down that path, consider PhD or doing something to seriously stand out in the field

[vocal stump]

Thanks @slim island

[main thicket]

@vocal stump Statistics or applied maths degree for ML

Whether instead of or as an addition to CS

Because ML is very little programming, a heck a lot of maths

@slim island The ML market is like an even worse amplified version of CS market. A lot of people who say they can do things and like spouting big words that their actions cant match

I'm not super worried about it

[slim island]

there are two prongs to that

[main thicket]

Especially since unlike the CS market, the barrier to entry for ML is so much more

[slim island]

one is the sea of non qualified candidates caused employers to raise and keep raising the intake bar

(like expecting a PhD)

[vocal stump]

I'm just in hiighschool xd

[slim island]

two is there is an increasing number of actually qualified candidates

there is ML is being commoditised by startups like datarobot

so demand will fall off in the next 5 years

anyway i'm just sharing my 5c worth of experience. I saw a lot of people all like 'im gonna do some moocs and become a data scientists and make big bucks' nah bro

i've been in the industry since before data science became a buzzword, i'm pretty good at what I do, and even for me it's hard to get an interview with employers where I don't already have contacts because I don't have a PhD

[vocal stump]

i don't plan on taking a PHD in the future

Cyber Security is more interesting to me than machine learning

[main thicket]

I really dont see datarobot replacing most data scientists. There's so much that automation cant do, especially considering theres so many trained data scientists which are having issues meeting promised results. Being in a company that largely exists because of our speciality in domain knowledge and working with companies who dont understand data science, automation is still far too far from being able to understand the data enough to be able to give useful results. I'll admit, I havent personally tried datarobot or similar but I've heard much from our clients who've paid for a similar service and found no results.

[slim island]

I had the same attitude as you

until I used it for a bit

[vocal stump]

thanks for the suggestion @main thicket

[main thicket]

Also yes, lol, how do people think they can just do the same blood MOOCs everyone else does and become a data scientist

[slim island]

it's not magical but it meets 95%+ of everyday business needs and will definitely displace what has become termed 'resident data scientists'

[main thicket]

Tbh I find resident data scientists at places that dont specialise in data science tend to be crap and doing meaningless tasks anyway

[slim island]

mostly yeah. They also make up the bulk of 'data scientists' at most orgs

all that is on the chopping block in the next few years. People who are better than that level are fine

[lost frigate]

So for the financially constrained individual who's keen to get into serious data science and can currently only afford MOOCs and doesn't have the background to get into a PhD program, what do we do?

Pivot? Use the knowledge and apply it somewhere else?,

[main thicket]

It's always possible to try but the market is very saturated with people who believe they are more qualified than they are. It doesn't help that everyone does the same set of MOOCs so it's pretty hard to distinguish people

But again, it's more dependent on the person

I'm in the industry as an undergrad

Not even having finished my degree

[lost frigate]

Im in the midst of finishing up Andrew Ng's ML course and was planning on doing the deep learning course and working on a few independent projects to build up a portfolio and show potential employers I'm capable of something!

Do you think I should do something differently?

I obviously don't expect to be treated as a serious data scientist having these courses under my belt lol, that would be too much of a stretch. Can't be a scientist without the research rigour of an academic program and I understand that

But what can one do if one can't afford graduate school at the moment?

[main thicket]

Do something that gives you legitimacy as a data scientist and immerse yourself in the community. Do kaggle all the time, join the nearest AI interest group, heck, maybe make your own if there isn't one there. Go to hackathons, make data science stuff there. Read research papers. Use stuff that doesn't hand-hold you.

Because people who've done Andrew Ng's courses and fast.ai are a dime a dozen because they require little effort and little background and understanding so they're low barrier to entry. Don't show mooc projects as your primier projects. Show something you came up with. Employers realise when a lot of people have very similar projects that it's just a mooc one

You don't need a degree to do data science. A degree just shows you're serious and has a certain guarantee that you know something. But when you don't have the degree, you do need the skills the degree requires and need to display those skills so people know you have them

Maybe once you get employed you can later get your employer to pay for your grad degree as that's pretty common

Oh ya, and getting a background in other stuff that other DSs don't learn can be a major factor. Learn distributed systems, containerisation and deployment, setting up data pipelines, how to optimise code well.

[lost frigate]

Thanks Raggy, this is very valuable advice! Appreciate it

[wise comet]

Who knows how to create an 2d battlr royale game?

[lunar harness]

is that a question your interviewer asked you?

[wise comet]

No, im a 13 year old who wants to start learning python and coding it

[indigo sleet]

well then this is the wrong channel, and also your aim is set a little too high

start with the basics

!t resources

[inner wren]

resources

It can be difficult to know where to begin when you are first starting out with Python. On our website, we have compiled a list of both free and paid resources that we recommend for learning and mastering Python.

It is hard to say exactly where you should start, as everyone will have a different prefered method of learning, but whether you like video tutorials, books or courses, you should find a suitable resource on our resources page

[wise comet]

ok

thx

[faint harbor]

Dont fall into the trap of your first game being an MMO. That way leads to madness >.<

[willow spruce]

should i go to uni and study cs? im a little older than the typical student, and it would be a big career change, but programming fascinates me and although its not easy im picking things up quickly recently

[vapid jay]

what file format should I email my resume in?

[rare sand]

pdf.

[vapid jay]

i just read somewhere that only 19% of emails are in PDF, and that it is not the preferred format

[faint harbor]

@willow spruce I started my degree in computing at 39. do it. 😃

just don't expect much python 😛

[rare sand]

@willow spruce maybe. or maybe software engineering or something more developer focused. look into options. maybe even a boot camp although those are probably gonna be incredibly hit and miss. maybe you study on your spare time and build up a portfolio. figure out what fits your life. but should you change careers if you want to? absolutely.

[cinder belfry]

AIUI recruiters are going to want it in MS Word format so they can edit it to remove your contact information so the company can't bypass them (and if they're unethical, to pad your skills)

companies probably won't care if it's a pdf

[faint harbor]

a degree will teach one oop language (c# or java) web stuff : html css, php low level assembler, matrixes, hex, binary and other maths,

oh and then soft skills

so referencing, research, reflection, etc.

[rare sand]

sounds incredibly sketchy. I would never send anything but a pdf to any kind of recruiter but these things may vary from country to country.

[faint harbor]

lemon : they do pad your CV

[vapid jay]

@faint harbor that gives me hope i'm older too...

[faint harbor]

I got to a job interview and they expected me to know c#

i'm in the uk

I got a student loan to cover my wage

[rare sand]

I changed careers to developer at age 28

[vapid jay]

whats eet?

[rare sand]

you are all in good company

[faint harbor]

(i was at mcdonalds)

eet == it 😛

do it

[vapid jay]

huh?

[faint harbor]

allow me to clarify

there

fixed it

literally

[vapid jay]

still don't get it

[faint harbor]

there is nothing to get

i changed the original message to convey intent

[vapid jay]

anyways. is colt steele's web boot camp on udemy any good?/

[faint harbor]

I cant say i've ever done any udemy courses

I really should

[vapid jay]

i've got a bad idea and i need your feedback

bad idea huh?

[cinder belfry]

that probably violates the terms of service of those sites

[narrow moat]

@willow spruce Do it, won't help letting time go by and then get the urge to take a course when older and the same thought about "being older than the others" enter your head and you postpone again and just end up regretting not taking the course afterall

[vapid jay]

Are you sure you want to apply for a dev job

[real python]

@vapid jay you've been told repeatedly that we're not going to help you scrape sites whose TOS explicitly forbid scraping

[vapid jay]

ok, ok

[real python]

For over 3 weeks now

[vapid jay]

jeez

[real python]

These are the rules you agreed to

[vapid jay]

i understand

it wont happen again

[willow spruce]

Thanks for the advice guys guess it's never to late, the only issue is it's taken me a long time to get basic coding ability with python, I can pretty much build Web scrapers, automation tools etc but if I was to jump into the full thing how different is it going to be learning oop and other deep concepts / languages, as someone said the other option could be to teach myself in my spare time and not go the uni route but in that case it could take a very long time, hmm

@rare sand drop me a DM buddy, would love to ask you some questions about going for it, if you have time

[rare sand]

my DMs are wide open to anyone, @willow spruce. DM me as much as you like. you can ask here, too.

[willow spruce]

@rare sand trying to remember how to DM on discord mobile 🤣

[vivid dock]

Remember to always compare yourself to your old self, never anyone else.

[faint harbor]

my old self didn't have a degree

or type 2 diabetes

am i doing this right? 😛

[vivid dock]

Ehm, sure

[faint harbor]

to be fair I have since reversed the diabetes with diet 😃

the last 2 years have been about self improvement

degree, learn a bunch of stuff i've been avoiding

[vivid dock]

That's the spirit.

[faint harbor]

the last 2 languages on my list to learn were python and c#

[vivid dock]

I went to a talk about addiction today, and I think I've concluded I'm addicted to information. So there's that.

[faint harbor]

Due to circumstances (back injury and a dodgy tooth) I have been exposed to 2 different things that I could have become addicted to. prescription opiate pain killers and vast quantities of alcohol to control tooth pain. (I know, not a good option but no dentists at the weekend in the uk for some reason)

The good news is I never became addicted to either

which makes me wonder why my dad was such an addict

I too am addicted to knowledge

and maybe solving problems

[vivid dock]

It's a good (ish) thing to be addicted to at least. I can't get a problem that seems a bit interesting without trying to solve it to my best intent

[final jolt]

Being addicted to information is useful, but for me personally it has heavily hindered my ability to discern between learning for pleasure and learning things that are related to the important problems in my life.

I used to have a terrible HackerNews addiction, but I kept justifying because every now and then I would stumble across some new CLI utility, or some piece of writing or website that would change the way I thought about programming.

The key problem was that I was spending hours a day getting sucked into reading about scalability problems I'll literally never face tha occur in softwware services that I never deal with so that they could cater to businesses which I'll probably never interact with

Reddit was even worse, but at least with reddit the downsides are much more apparent.

I'm not going to say information is worse than opiates or alcohol, but I've wasted more time than I'd like to admit digging through discussions on the Internet which were probably nothing more than a form of entertainment that I was calling education.

[terse light]

@final jolt my brother calls this behavior mental masturbation

because it doesnt yield anything of value

thinking for the sake of thinking, while fun, is just another form of unproductiveness

[final jolt]

That’s a really good comparison. I think it could be justifiable as a way to keep up with the industry and keep programming on your mind, but it’s no substitute for actual programming

[tawny quartz]

Yeah, I used to have that problem as well, for me I think it was hacker news, reddit, discord, and browsing aimlessly.

Now I just use Feedly to actively track people and communities that I know I get value from, and pick up new ones from those, occasional reddit (netsec and Python), work, and Discord.

It's definitely easy to get sucked in and waste a bunch of time learning stuff that you won't remember because it's not applicable to anything you're currently doing or will be doing.

That being said, it is valuable to branch out and learn new fields, techniques and technologies.

If you know absolutely nothing about machine learning, that highly technical blog post by Facebook engineering on applying deep learning to server uptime (not real) probably isn't going to give you much value for the time and energy spent.

[terse light]

mhm..

helps in conversations though

[upbeat fiber]

@tawny quartz @final jolt @terse light couldn't agree more, It's the old "Value vs Effort" in my opinion the real problem is: Sometimes you think something is way more Value/Important than it really is or you could absorb in that time

[native inlet]

Hello, just started learning python and I'm thinking about what my next language should be. What would be the easiest way to get a programming job after I've learnt python? Can I work with python alone or do I need a second or even a third language and if that's the case what languages?

[ocean barn]

Oliver, It depends on what you want to do, webdevelopment, games, machine learning, robotics, data management, statistics, some language are better suited to a task than others

[main thicket]

depends on what you want to do

yeah, different purposes have different requirements

if you want into webdev, JS+HTML+CSS are basics, nobody really uses python for games, robotics you'd want C++ too, you can totally do ML with just python (though there's other requirements), etc

[native inlet]

okay thanks for the answers, I'm looking for a quick way to start doing some freelance jobs while I progress further

c++ is the one I've been thinking about the most

[main thicket]

C++ is a good choice for a lot of things, flexible language. hard to learn though.

and starting to lose market somewhat

[native inlet]

students where I live learn c# as their first language

is there any reason to consider that instead of c++ after python?

[ocean barn]

It still depends on what you want to do

[main thicket]

easier to learn, nicer to write, works slightly nicer if you're on windows

[ocean barn]

and there's a lot of job opportunities with C#

[native inlet]

I think I would like to do some kind analysis work with python but I guess that python is not the only language they use for that?

[main thicket]

R is common too. Some people might use MATLAB or Scala but that's a bit more uncommon

[celest anvil]

How much does school ranking matter in the great scheme of things as an aspiring software eng

[tawny quartz]

Depends where you're applying, but if you're dedicated, spend the time to network and apply to places, and are reasonably competent then it doesn't matter that much.

Though it does make you an odd duck in the bunch when everyone else has gone to well known tech schools or ivy leagues.

[main thicket]

@celest anvil I'll say: very little. The variation between schools is so miniscule compared to the variation between people due to effort and passion that it's almost a worthless indicator of anything

[gusty stump]

Whats the difference between a software develper and a software engineer? Im applying to a few apprenticeships so im wondering how they differ

[lunar harness]

they're the same thing

[faint harbor]

the difference is how pretentious you are feeling 😛

[celest anvil]

I deep fried my high school performance to make it brief , so some schools are unattainable, smh

Folly of youth n so forth

[zealous bramble]

high school performance has little to no effect on your career as a software engineer

if that was even remotely the case then i would still be a janitor or a grocery clerk

even if you attend community college for 2 years and transfer to a small state school (like i did), you will still make it if you put in the time and effort

[celest anvil]

oh wow well that’s motivating

[zealous bramble]

the only things big name schools have going for them are the network of alumni and the fact that they are target schools for high profile companies

but as far as undergraduate curriculum goes, it's all pretty much the exact same

[chilly patrol]

yawn

[celest anvil]

I think my cities uni is pretty solid would love to transfer perhaps

[lunar harness]

@chilly patrol wrong channel

#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[chilly patrol]

Oops yeah got wrong place

@lunar harness thx a lot

[slim island]

any suggested reading for someone who doesn't want to dump the $ into an MBA but wants to cover the relevant topics?

[vapid jay]

@slim island could just look at a curriculum for a university with an mba program

but otherwise maybe just get relevant certifications instead

[brave fog]

what language would you suggest if you wanted to become a software engineer/anything in that major and carrer

[zealous bramble]

java, c#, JS, C, C++, go, python, scala, clojure, swift, brainfuck

being a successful engineer is less dependent on what languages you know and more dependent on your architectural/system design skills, your ability to recognize patterns and formulate the best solution approach for a given problem

[crystal spire]

Or you could learn COBOL :p

[zealous bramble]

the languages are just tools, and once you understand the core fundamentals of the main programming paradigms (imperative and declarative), learning how those map to various languages is basically just a few google searches

no one is going to tell a carpenter that in order to be successful in their craft they have to use a specific type of saw or sander

you can get the job done with any tool, but an experienced carpenter is going to know which tool is the best for the job, and most importantly why it's the best tool for the job

[brave fog]

alright thanks for the advice

[versed dawn]

Anyone have experience with bootcamps? I'm looking at a data science immersive. Thoughts?

[torn galleon]

Get the Udacity one, its career ready,

if you have the money

@versed dawn

[versed dawn]

@torn galleon thanks. I was more interested in an in person one though. Did you do the udacity one yourself?

[tight marsh]

I've done a few. By and large they weren't anything special. I forgot most of the content just weeks later. Where I did find them useful was in exposing me to new APIs. But as an effective way to learn data science.... I think that's debatable. It's a pretty big field.

If it's cheap enough give it a shot. At the very least it might give you a few ideas for how to self study.

[narrow lake]

Hi guys, is there some sr dev's here looking for a mentee with whom they can practice their one on one coaching skill?

I'm seeking to speed up my progress as a developer and I've read that having a mentor goes a long way. (I'm not a complete beginner though)

I'm in my 30's and changing career path, so this is a serious matter to me, each decision I make counts, as I have people that depend on me! so no time to be playing around, I need to become an employable developer fast!

The ideal mentor will be someone who has been through where I'm now and made it to the other side successfully and now he/she is a Sr developer.

Please reach out.

[vapid jay]

I need to become an employable developer fast!

You sure this is your desired field

[narrow lake]

I've been learning to code on my own for almost a year now, as I said, I'm not a complete beginner.
if I didn't like it, I would have quited already by now.. I think I know pretty well what I'm looking for and I will get there no matter what!

[fair mesa]

Quit*

[narrow lake]

my bad! I see the typo
I meant to say : "if I didn't like it, I would have quit already by now"

[fluid matrix]

I've been learning to code on my own for almost a year now, as I said, I'm not a complete beginner.
You might be dealing with a phenomenon called "the impostor syndrom".
if you have been learning consistently for almost a year now, you probably know more than you think.
You need to start applying for dev jobs and internships now! even if it feels like you don't know everything listed on the job requirement, just apply and go to interviews, and be honest about what you know and don't. You might just end up being surprised at what happens next.

[vapid jay]

For anybody living in France near Luxemburg or near Rennes, we're searching for an experienced python web developer.

[lunar harness]

no recriuitment

[vivid dock]

We don't really have a system for recruitment right now I'm afraid. This channel is for general discussion about working, and education

Even says so in the topic description "NOT FOR RECRUITMENT"

[vapid jay]

Sorry didn't see the last part because of the screen size

But it would be great to have a specific channel for it

[vivid dock]

It's being considered, just have to get the details down. But you're welcome to suggest ways to approach it in #community-meta

[spiral bloom]

Is data engineering more related to software engineering or data science?

[shrewd kelp]

I wrote some code for work to automate a process that they’ve been doing manually for years. Supposed to speak with my boss next week discussing plans to monetize it. How can I express that I want to be compensated without being a dick? First job after graduation :/

[rare sand]

you probably can't. at least that's been my experience.

[shrewd kelp]

Even if I wasn’t tasked to write the code but rather developed it on my own time?

[rare sand]

oh you definitely could. it's the without being a dick I'd be worried about.

companies are not gonna be happy to have to compensate their own employees for doing a good job.

imo you should cash it in as a good reason to give you a raise or a promotion, not as a request for actual compensation.

[shrewd kelp]

oh I see. Ive only been there a month - is that too soon to ask for a raise after making this improvement?

[rare sand]

probably

[shrewd kelp]

yeah :/ damn

confused as to what to do in this case

[rare sand]

I mean how hard was it for you to do this

did you spend months of blood and sweat on it?