in 2018 I would recommend learning JS over Java yes
#career-advice
halcyon turret
but this is a personal choice
python revolves heavily around OOP
you can do some FP in Python though, but it is not great for FP
even JS is better than Python for FP
halcyon turret
the thing is, pro java developers often do the GUI in HTML/CSS/JS anyway
a lot of java frameworks for desktop apps use web-based view
fiery pond
guys, is there anyone who knows Java along with Python so they can tell the similarities/differences between them?
I'm asking because there are going to be local meetups in English teaching Java in Madrid. I am still so much better at English than at Spanish, it will be a small group of people (language limitation) in cafes etc. All Python meetups are horribly overcrowded or just for women (PyLadies) so I like this one but I don't know if I can use it to get better at Python or learn Java to become more familiar with programing techniques in general. Clearly, the point is to learn programming, not the syntax, but maybe it's better to stick with one programming language at first without any previous knowledge of CS?
fluid matrix
@fiery pond Here is something that a lot of new developers usually are not aware of.
Save yourself a lot of time by focusing on just one language first to really get a good grasp of computer science concepts and principles.
and then, Practice, Practice, Practice!
once you get good at it, only then you can start having fun with other programming languages, as all of them share mostly the same concepts however just have different syntax style.
Whenever a client project requires you to, you will notice that it will be taking you an average of a week only to get comfortable coding in languages you have never used before and still produce quality results.
fiery pond
So I don't really need to focus on one language when learning how to program? That means that I can be attending the Java workshops while keeping Python as my favorite language , right?
fluid matrix
@fiery pond I just told you to do exactly the inverse.
Focus in getting good in python first then you can learn other languages later.
it will save you a hell lot of time
fiery pond
Oh, I misunderstood your message then, sorry. I have asked the organizer of the meetup how it could be useful for me if I attend. What a shame that there isn't anything similar in Madrid but for Python.
fiery pond
Okay, I will see what the organizer answers. There are PyLadies, but it's like for 50 people and the waitlist of 40 more. I find 50 people already too much. Then there is another workshop about GraphQL & Neo4j (150 attendees atm) and that doesn't seem to be useful for someone who is trying to learn pure Python first either.
halcyon turret
meetup groups aren't really a great way to learn anyway
learning programming is mostly a very solo activity
wind jungle
I'm a self taught software engineer. I learned a heck of a lot by watching udemy videos, following tutorials, reading documentation, attending meetups and just getting my hands dirty and building stuff. It took me 3 years and 3 months to go from just starting to landing a software engineer job.
tame escarp
I found javascript very difficult to learn with weak typing in past. Is it any better these days?
tame escarp
so the motivation for learning js is for web development?
wind jungle
There are still no strong types in JavaScript. You could look at TypeScript which is like JavaScript, but with strong types.
fiery pond
Uff, 3 years... well, I don't watch videos, because of a limited access to the internet home, but I have read already some books. I started spending more time with Python just this year in the spring, but not very consistently, but I'm getting into it more and more. I was hoping that in one year a could be confident enough in Python. Right now I am waiting for an answer of one company I had an interview with where I would be searching through the internet for required data and I already wrote two web scrapers which pull the data for me in the matter of seconds or minutes. This is where I would like to start using Python first if not as a programmer yet.
wind jungle
JavaScript is still the language of the browser. If you want to do anything on the front end in the browser, you will need JavaScript.
worn plaza
though it does focus quite a bit on web development @tame escarp 😅
wind jungle
It might have taken me less than 3 years, but I was already in a career field and had a wife and child and mortgage to pay for. There was stability in my last job and I couldn't take unnecessary financial risks by accepting any programming job that came along.
fiery pond
I understand
wind jungle
Basically, how long it takes depends on the individual.
It does help to have a focus. I focused on Web Development.
tame escarp
how many jobs require you to do "front end in browser"?
fiery pond
yes well I have hard times to find the right kind of motivation sometimes. I would like to do web development too in future but I can't start with Django yet as I should practise Python more before
tame escarp
i am not sure i want to do web development and similar stuff at least not most the time
I really want to get better at python but not sure where to start
halcyon turret
some people get web dev jobs after just 6 months
you can learn fast if you are motivated
fiery pond
and I believe that attending the workshops might help me to find the motivation as well as I am able to write simple scripts but it takes me a lot of effort when I can't find any analogy from the top of my head and when I finally solve the problem and write a working script I don't have anyone to ask what I could do better, how I could write it cleaner and better organized
halcyon turret
html, jquery, react, CSS, SASS, flask, django, postgreSQL all in 6 months is doable
that's enough for web dev job
tame escarp
hmm probably challenging for the average person
wind jungle
You have to be very motivated and you have to love writing code. If you love it, then it's not hard to spend an hour or two practicing and studying every single day.
halcyon turret
I was referring to way more than an hour a day rly
wind jungle
I spent 30 min a day studying a foreign language. After a year, I was conversational.
fiery pond
but didn't we have a discussion here before that before working with web frameworks like flask and django you need to fully understand Python and improve at problem solving in general?
tame escarp
I think i can do basic python. I want to learn how to start writing better production level code. Not sure what good resources are.
halcyon turret
but didn't we have a discussion here before that before working with web frameworks like flask and django you need to fully understand Python and improve at problem solving in general?"fully understand python" is pretty vague
you need to get the basics down first yes
but you don't need fluency
tame escarp
I think it depends on assumptions you are making for 6 months quote
most people i know irl could not bend their minds around all these things to do it in 6 months
wind jungle
To be successful you don't need to be fluent in Python, you need to know how to solve problems, where to look for answers. It would be difficult to find someone who writes code for a living that would say they know everything there is to know about their language.
halcyon turret
ye I think very few pro devs know their language 100%
and for something like C++ I think no one in the world knows it 100%
halcyon turret
C++ is harder than python but its not so bad
I've been doing a lot of Qt in C++ at the moment
wind jungle
I don't even want to think about pointers and references and memory management.
halcyon turret
it's good to learn a low level lang eventually
helps you understand what high-level langs are abstracting over
solemn valley
There are like two types of c++ Devs I know
Type A does classical old style c++
Type B relies on every single feature of the latest c++ standard and eventually Type A will just wonder what the fuck those guys wrote
halcyon turret
LOL
fiery pond
well I have the basics. I know everything what every single tutorials tries to teach.... data types, loops, functions, comprehensions, generators etc. but I'm not fluent by any means. I didn't get to create anything what works with classes yet, but I am able to use them when I have to with imported modules.
halcyon turret
you could start a personal Flask project now TBH
I don't see the benefit of waiting
learn as you go
tidal socket
Start flask and then try and move it to a production server and once you’ve done that walk me through that
solemn valley
Or you just go to #web-development and #414737889352744971
halcyon turret
there's a Flask tutorial for Digital Ocean
it pretty much walks you through the whole thing
halcyon turret
a production server is still just a server
tidal socket
Wait we’re on careers?
halcyon turret
it's not different
tidal socket
Yeah but flask is a single thread/process and can’t handle a heavy workload
halcyon turret
production server is not a measure of scale
you can have production servers with 1 user LOL
tidal socket
Hmm ig
halcyon turret
so long as it is where your final product is hosted
tidal socket
Ok - it’s single threaded/processed and that won’t do for me 😂
halcyon turret
okay
fiery pond
guys, you were reacting to me? I'm a bit lost now xD
tidal socket
I just randomly joined in halfway through
real python
cunning notch
@meager plume 
meager plume
LOL
i'm stupid.. sorry
not really used to discord topics... but the channel name is not that helpful 😦
my bad
vapid jay
if no1 knows c++ 100%, how'd its creator make it?
vapid jay
i replied to @halcyon turret
cunning notch
unfortunately that does not make it a channel topic relevant question
you're free to pursue that line of thought in an off-topic channel
vapid jay
it does. convo discusses how much to learn for a career. learn context, mod.
cunning notch
How the creator of C++ created C++ is not contextually relevant to the conversation you reference. The conversation about C++ knowledge was also not contextually relevant to this channel, which explicitly addresses Python in the topic. Are these really points worth being argued? You are, once again, more than free to ping Cake in a off-topic channel.
lucid sapphire
Top of the morning to you lads
Im an econ grad
And super interested in Python and have built a couple of bots here and there, but that's about the extent of my stint with Python
I'd like to learn more advanced Python and basically use it somehow in FinTech
Work at someplace like DE Shaw or some big bank in an analytics profile or finance profile
Are there any pecific Python modules meant for econ and finance?
fluid matrix
@frank abyss
The later you start, the harder trying to balance school, your bills, life, will be```
Yes college isn't hard, however just make sure that it 's the right option for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8QY0NDWqzk
vapid jay
I don't necessarily agree with the difficulty of college being easy. I'm of average intelligence and struggle with some concepts. It may be a breeze for some of you but not all. Also, yeah, that's true my old teacher said employers are looking for ability.
vapid jay
@cunning notch It mentioned few or none know 100% of their language. C++ question is rhetorical, universal & applies. Worth debating when a mod/algo bans a topic based on keywords, not context.
Convos dead anyway now.
main thicket
@lucid sapphire Since fintech will likely be very data heavy, numpy, matplotlib, pandas and scipy are all good things to learn
Also wrt the point about college, I agree degrees arent worth much at least in CS but lets not fall for survivorship bias listening to Harvard, MIT and Stanford dropouts who happened to have gotten lucky a decade ago when the internet was going big
A degree is needed to get past the HR firewall in a lot of places
vivid dock
I like to think college is mostly about how much time (and how well) people study
main thicket
Usually any degree is better than no degree
It pretty much is
A lot of things are pretty hard to learn outside the confines of university unfortunately
vivid dock
Up until college many get away with focusing on remember specifics before a test and get good grades based on that without actually learning the subject, which then carries onto higher education where it simply isnt sufficient
I realized so atleast and dramatically improved the way I study
lucid sapphire
@main thicket Yea those are the most basic one for data analytics
Wb QuantLib and others?
I don't wanna develop standalone webapps for finance, just wanna do some analytics
main thicket
I wouldnt say that. The difference for me was that I could sleep in class and ace everything in HS but I have to spend a decent chunk of time into stuff in uni to do, even if the content isnt much harder. Assessment just takes up a lot of time. The amount you can cram a subject and do well is about the same, except now everyone has to cram instead of everyone except those which were ahead
lucid sapphire
And if they do, what modules they use?
main thicket
@lucid sapphire Depends on where you are. One of my friends is in a company who writes everything for themselves. Another just reuses whatever's opensource. I can ask specifics if you want but I dont know them at the moment
The one which rewrite everything do still use numpy as a matrix backend though
I know another person but he doesnt do the same analytical stuff, mostly machine learning on a tf stack
lucid sapphire
That's true.. Given the people I've talked to as well, most use NumPy and Pandas in finance
Is there any good online resource for ML in finance?
I've been through all Sentdex tutorials
And they're pretty good, but not as detailed as I'd like them to be
main thicket
I wouldnt know about finance, soz. The firms I know of train you. Generic ML time series or stochastic maths resources would be my first guess to jump to
It's good to have a overall background on ML though, so it cant hurt to go through an ML textbook
Since they also go through all the probability theory, basic linalg etc you need
lucid sapphire
Yea true that, once you know the basics, you can apply it to finance as well
But everytime I try to go deep into this, I feel Python isn't meant for finance and analytics work
There are no dedicated finance python modules
main thicket
Yep, bottom up learning is how I learn everything. It's for sure slower than the other way but it gives me deeper understanding and keeps my mind strong
lucid sapphire
Most companies want god-like Excel skills
main thicket
But think, do you want to work in a company whose specialty is a 50GB excel file with 200 sheets?
lucid sapphire
Companies like Tower Research or DE Shaw are a perfct fit that way
But they don't really care much about Python chops
What companies were you talking about, that trained you?
main thicket
I'm not in finance lol, I just know a fair few people in fintech
lucid sapphire
Lol alright
Thanks for taking the time out to talk anyway 😄 You're a good person 😃
main thicket
I was mostly referring to succesful startups which I'd prefer to keep anonymous since they're still a bit small. One was in Hudson River Trading if it helps
lucid sapphire
sorry, I'm not from the States
main thicket
neither, i'm in Aus
little harbor
@vivid dock @lucid sapphire
I have a really hard time with studying. ADHD now AADD.
I can't focus or care about the subject unless I'm dealing with the problem.
I cannot stand classes. surrounded by dumb students and content that doesn't matter, and bad organization.
even if I do things right, I get screwed by people around me
stress, pain, bad teachers occassionally.
little harbor
years of 1-12, bored out of my mind, under incentivized, under used, lack of sleep, punished for fidgetting
now most of the corps I've worked for lie or BS me and steal money, then refuse to pay me more, even when I save their asses.
long story short, I don't respect most education, most people, most authority. It's all a surreal laughable nightmare.
I haven't come to terms with it and I don't know how I'm supposed to.
halcyon turret
find a place that you respect and enjoy working for
little harbor
learning well is hard
good friends are hard
good employment is seldom
believe me, when you find them, love them well.
rare sand
thanks for the advice, master yogi
you're not wrong about good jobs. it's tricky to come by, lots of shit jobs in dev.
and really in every industry
(but they do exist)
jaunty steppe
Find yourself a job where if you have a meeting with 6 people, everyone gets there on a different object with wheels
indigo sleet
you and me both
vapid jay
imagines lemon trundling to a meeting seated in a shopping cart
rare sand
if we wait long enough, I'm sure someone will photoshop it into existence
vapid jay
rare sand
I appreciate this
rare sand
this channel has now digressed pretty far outside its intended topic, so let's put a pin in it it right around there.
main thicket
good idea
vapid jay
aye
main thicket
rare sand
hahaha
main thicket
jks, i'll remove
elder kite
ooh, apparently I'm now a developer according to the column on the right. 😃
Does that mean I know have a proper job ? 😆
karmic bramble
Everyone gets the Developer role when they accept the rules.
fickle gate
Nice
rare sand
You're probably here to learn programming, or because you already know some. That makes you a developer.
vapid jay
A friend of a friend has a job with a casino game company, studied computer science, wonder what that job must be like
Just messing around with random numbers in a bunch of rigged casino games ???
real python
If he's you're friend you could probably ask him 😉
solemn valley
in germany casino owners have to guarantee a win after x "random" numbers
so its not all random
rare sand
@vapid jay your friend probably literally makes casino games. there's a ton of gamedevs that do this, because there is a big demand from online casinos for apps and inbrowser versions of blackjack or whatever.
pretty common first gamedev job.
vapid jay
@real python he's a friend of a friend lul
i barely know him
i was gonna make a blackjack game that has a AI that uses the MIT blackjack team algorithm
but it would take a long time to make
halcyon turret
how can you make a game using a card-counting algo ?
halcyon turret
I know how to card count
I just don't understand what you are making
Why have an AI that counts cards
halcyon turret
but why make this 🤔
vapid jay
if the running count is in your favor you're supposed to bet based on the number
why make anything?
why even play blackjack
halcyon turret
vapid jay
😃
vapid jay
the mit blackjack team got banned from playing in casinos
real python
Probably not a topic for #career-advice
vapid jay
i'll post in project ideas
livid roost
I think it's a good project. I might be new to this, but I don't understand why people ask "why make this"
I think people should be making things - is it necessary or not should be decided by the end user
but we should not limit someone's aspiration on creating something
either way, @vapid jay , would love to colab on the project if you want
real python
It seems like a misunderstanding of the project. And again, not a conversation on-topic to #career-advice
livid roost
I agree @real python
hollow mantle
@vapid jay For example, they'll usually give you a general problem that needs fixing, and it's up to you to figure out how.
hollow mantle
Or sometimes you'll be working with another team, and they give you a certain functionality that needs to be met
vapid jay
Does it require a lot of maths?
hollow mantle
Not necessarily
vapid jay
What do you mean how good do you have to be at maths?
And what's the difference between working at google as a software engineer and working as a freelance software engineer?
hollow mantle
If you know algebra, you're set
hollow mantle
The difference is larger companies like google will be a lot more structured
vapid jay
So more harder?
That's pretty cool
I'm in high school currently studying Computer science and design technology and other stuff
Not sure why i picked design technology
But it's cool i guess
hollow mantle
Not necessarily. Like I said, the problems you solve vary. Freelancing is different because you need to work with people to land contracts and build relationships. It's super dynamic, where as working under a company will be a lot more regular. You'll have a set bunch of problems given to you, and once you solve those, they give you more
vapid jay
Ohh i see
What kind of programming languages are great to learn for software engineering?
hollow mantle
None
vapid jay
it depends on what you are gonna be doing?
hollow mantle
and All
Understanding the concepts is a lot more important than being fluent in a language
hollow mantle
You can learn a new language in a week or so if you understand the concepts
hollow mantle
Yeah, I got hired on to work on some backend C# stuff. Never touched the language until the day of the interview. Took me a few hours to look through the documentation and I was good to go. After that it's just practice
vapid jay
What really?
Dang i'm bad then i'm still not that good at python and i've been studying it for a year
hollow mantle
All languages share a lot of the same functionality, they just say it in different ways.
Your first language is different, because you're still learning the concepts
After Python, I would study C++. If you understand C++, you're good to go for pretty much any other language out there
Besides maybe functional languages
vapid jay
Ahh i see
Well thank you very much!
I really appreciate it
Thank you
I'm sorry for any trouble
hollow mantle
that's what I'm here for 😃
vapid jay
❤
vapid jay
I would also recommend learning a functional language early on. It's really different and will give you good reflexes
umbral valley
I graduate in just a few weeks with a bachelors and don’t think I ever covered a functional language
fluid matrix
Topic for conversation: What's your view on this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zXHMQXWOM0
main thicket
crikey you're old we have an entire CS major called "programming languages" where they focus on programming language theory, language grammar etc
accounting and finance firms have been using ML for a while now, not sure what this guy is talking about
a lot of the "pattern" jobs he's talking about dont exist outside of ML so idk what he's talking about wrt replacing them
fluid matrix
@main thicket
Yeah you right, few big firms are already into it.
the other point that came in my mind when watching it is: I think many developers(myself included) are sleeping on the AI, maybe it's time to start getting into it.
do you remember years back when people were predicting the "Dot-com era"? look at us now, granted many of us were kids back then but regardless, friends and people who were swift enough to get into dev earlier ended up reaping 10x benefits than late adopters.
main thicket
Most developers don't have the background to do AI. Too much maths for their taste.
AI is maths first, CS second
fluid matrix
yeah, that seems to be the case
fluid matrix
wierd facts within the same topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3icoSeGqQtY
main thicket
Good talk, though some neuroscience is clearly misrepresented :P
If anyone has free time and wants to read how big of dumpster fire maths education is: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
vale heart
Kurzweil says artificial general intelligence will be here ~2029
and a lot of other people are converging on the same date
little harbor
at some point, AI will be smarter and faster than us, and we will grow or we will die.
vale heart
so we got 11 years
little harbor
most likely we'll "upgrade" ourselves to use the AI internally
make ourselves think faster, more
vale heart
tell Kurzweil that
guy's got a good track record of being right about a lot of stuff
and he's not the only one predicting that date, iirc
anyway this isnt really related to the topic of careers
violet roost
I don't know if this is the right chanell to ask this, but what is your opinion on a hackathon? I'm thinking of doing one
tawny quartz
My experiences with them have been mostly positive
Just find a team you get along with well
Honestly, it's not about winning.
Being in an environment with a bunch of nerds, a team, and being able to unleash with ideas is rewarding in and of itself
@violet roost
fluid matrix
@vapid jay @meta Not really, no. Will AI get better, yes. Will society crumble and AI taking all of the jobs in the next 20 years? NoThink about it, with the pace modern technology is evolving, there's virtually nothing stopping that future from happening.
main thicket
@violet roost I love hackathons. They're really fun. They allow me to dedicate time to a cool project, learn new technologies, see other cool stuff, and I got my job out of a hackathon
tame escarp
how do you find a team to participate in a hackathon
main thicket
I usually dont, I go find one
They usually start off with introduction then idea and team pitching
main thicket
Every one I've been to starts off with an introduction on how things work, briefing on the plan etc and then anyone who has an idea but not a team (or only part of a team) pitches their idea while those who want to join listen. After everyone is done, they go and join teams
Can go with your own team too ofc
tame escarp
if this is anything like PE. ill be 2nd to last kid picked which will be awkward lol
main thicket
nah, you go to the person who pitched their idea and tell them you want to join them
it's not barbaric and brutal like that
main thicket
Dont even have to be good at it. if you're willing to learn it's good. Generally there's also non coding people around for things like eg. design and business plan making
Hackathon people have a diverse range of skillsets. Join a team with a diverse skillset, go with an open mind and some passion for making something and you'll enjoy it and hopefully do well
main thicket
yep, for sure. webdev stuff too
hackathons can vary a bit, good to check up with the organisers to make sure they have time for team forming etc. @tame escarp
tawny quartz
It depends on the hackathon. The one I attended several times required you to form a team ahead of time. I recruited friends and classmates who had similar interests.
fluid matrix
question to folks who are into blockchain dev, what's your view on Python vs NodeJs?
little harbor
@fluid matrix lol, Python
vapid jay
hey friends
I'm recently getting into python and have an interview with a company for a financial analyst position. They note familiarity with SQL preferred, which I have, and also note job requirements for forecasting / visualization though with excel.
Anyone think there's the opportunity to use python there? I would think yes
main thicket
A good idea would be to ask them during the interview and propose it to them if they're not sure
vapid jay
yeah that was my thought as well, thanks!
little harbor
@vapid jay yes, figure out how to export everything from excel, do in python
vapid jay
yeah! I heard someone at a talk recently say they took a company that was just using excel and converted it all to python so I thought, hey, sounds like that would make sense here
not that I'm an expert
rare sand
I've done that in my own career
people will use excel for just about anything
and you might be able to wow some people with far better visualizations by involving python
little harbor
@vapid jay experts are just people that have done things longer, not necessarily better.
If you can figure out how to make their data and calculations scale sanely in a way that helps them and you can keep building in an organized fashion, it's better than whatever they're relying on in excel.
rare sand
or automate parts of their day-to-day operations
little harbor
Not to detract from @rare sand 's possible expertise, I don't know him and he probably knows his stuff. 😛
exactly!
rare sand
in my experience financial sector may be a bit rigid and resist changes if you go completely overboard.
vapid jay
Yeah that's great stuff! Well, it's a pharmacy company so maybe slightly more lax
or not, who knows
rare sand
but sprinkle a little python here and there if you get the job and they might consider you a warlock
vapid jay
hahahahahaa
little harbor
you're right, bunch of accountants that don't want to be made obsolete.
vapid jay
that's what I was hoping for! I'm sure, yeah, they just have like a dozen spreadsheets that they generate reports with
rare sand
in my experience, these kinds of companies are just absolutely flush with potential for automation, and python is the right tool for the job.
but I have been in companies where the CEO got really pissed at me for doing it
even though it was clearly in the company's best interest
little harbor
@rare sand I've found often that in companies, small-medium, you run into older people that run them. They don't want you to do it for them, even it it'll make them money, they want to succeed doing it their way. Which I dunno, I guess I understand as their baby, but it's frustrating.
EXACTLY! YES, PREACH!
rare sand
this one CEO straight up asked me if I thought I was a programmer. I said no, but I think a little bit of code here and there could really benefit the company.
"well, have you considered that maybe you're just not in the right career?"
I mean.. she was right
but fuck her for saying it.
little harbor
ouch, why not both?
rare sand
man they still use some of my code at that company to this day, but the CEO always had it in for me, I guess she just thought any time spent programming was time I wasn't spending doing day-to-day bullshit like making excel reports. the irony of course being that all the code I wrote helped make many of those excel reports obsolete and did stuff like automatically generate reports from the CRM
vapid jay
hahahahaha oh boy
rare sand
but anyway, in many other jobs I've benefited greatly from being perceived as a computer genius just because I could write some simple python to make something easier.
vapid jay
yeah I can absolutely see people thinking that spreadsheets are still just the way to do things which is wild
rare sand
so if you're lucky, you find one of those.
and, eventually, of course, I actually did switch careers to full time dev.
vapid jay
yeah definitely! I'm excited for this now
ah cool, yeah, I
I'm currently a portfolio manager so I do analysis though not using any programming, so this might be a good way to dip my toes in
rare sand
absolutely
make sure you work through al sweigarts phenomenal book Automate The Boring Stuff
it's written exactly for you.
vapid jay
yeah I've heard of it! I haven't checked it out yet because I've reading through pandas / numpy recently but it's on my list
rare sand
it's very simple stuff
for beginners - but every chapter teaches a new real world application of python
and especially for people with non-programming jobs
that involve some tech
excel automation, sending emails, all that good stuff
vapid jay
ahhhh yeah very cool, I'll definitely have to read it now
rare sand
it'll be very easy for you to spot areas of improvement if you know what python can do in these situations
like you can confidently say "oh yeah, well, we could automatically take those excel files, generate a beautiful pdf, and email it to the executives every month, if you want."
and you know how to do it, sort of. because you read that book.
vapid jay
that might ruin the whole department!
rare sand
well, fuck'em! :D
vapid jay
but, yeah, that sounds basically exactly like the job description
little harbor
@vapid jay I definitely ruined entire departments on more than one occassion
rare sand
I have taken a few jobs in my time, too.
little harbor
and by ruined I mean, made them lots of money, the worker's lives easier, and removed the BS tedious parts that required reporting.
rare sand
but if you can make a job obsolete, are you really hurting anyone? that guy was on borrowed time anyway
vapid jay
yeah that's true
little harbor
I try to do it in a way that doesn't make the workers useless, but empowers them to get more work done.
rare sand
that's a nice ideal but it's impossible a lot of the time
vapid jay
I've heard people say that when they're automating, say manufacturing jobs, it means that people don't have to do more backbreaking labor that's hard on their bodies
little harbor
you're right.
vapid jay
or like in cases like this, they're just extremely boring tasks that no one wants to do
rare sand
I remember one place I worked, they had a guy whose full time job was just to call the on-site people and ask them what they had done.
then write it down
little harbor
but a properly growing company would just place the workers in new roles doing things you haven't automated yet.
rare sand
so I wrote a super simple flask app that the on-site people could open on their phones in the browser and just fill in that info
and my college was eventually fired. they just could not find anything for him to do
I reduced his workload by like 35 hours a week
vapid jay
yeah I mean it seems like the more optimal solution obviously
little harbor
@rare sand btw, kick my ass if I don't show progress on seriously learning SQL in the next month, that's blocking me from making actual flask applications and it's pissing me off.
rare sand
it's easy, just do it
little harbor
I need to learn the relationships, forign keys, and django's ORM should be stupid simple as well
but something's blocking me from actually.. using it.
halcyon turret
👌
little harbor
@rare sand like holy shit, you have any idea how much time these employees spend tracking and scanning receipts?
rare sand
yeah we have that same problem where I work
little harbor
option 1: buy a twilio number, setup a bot to accept MMS from employees, have them login and tally them up
option 2: use a premade app to submit them
I like option 1, easier, no training, cheaper, can use the twilio number to do other things too like notifications/monitoring
I've transitioned between production/employee mass assembly line to distributed site monitoring/reliability. Still don't know what I'm doing with my life.
I enjoyed the mass employee assembly line thing most. Lots more waste and room to make people happy.
site reliability is all, "we broke it, you have to fix it now, what are we paying you for?!"
indigo sleet
Option 1 will result in tons of very low quality images, or links to websites complaining that "your phone can't do MMS"
little harbor
@indigo sleet What do you suggest?
I imagine making a multi app django project that allows users to login and attach things to projects and tally them up, but perhaps I'm overcomplicating
trick is you want it to be as simple as possible, not add another 5 tools/things to train on
lucid smelt
anyone know good careers for python programing. In other words why should i learn it where is it applicable?
obsidian acorn
Lol, there are a million reasons
lucid smelt
a few then?
obsidian acorn
Lol
lucid smelt
lets say top 10
lucid smelt
i was told python is harder on comp then some like golang why should i learn this and not that
obsidian acorn
Easier to learn, great base for learning other languages
lucid smelt
ok thats interests me
obsidian acorn
And python is a lot more libraries for practically anything you can imagine
And if it’s not done yet, you can create it and share it for everyone else to use
Great for severs
APIs and so much more
lucid smelt
so if i make a program how can i share it other than social media such as discord
wanton holly
if you make a package you can upload it to PyPI for other people to use it.
obsidian acorn
Also, for programming jobs, python is between number 1 and number 5 of all languages
Depending on your source
obsidian acorn
Np
lucid smelt
I will sleep on it then i will decide if its for me or not have a great night
obsidian acorn
Also @lucid smelt take a look at hacktober fest
obsidian acorn
Find out
We also have a channel #496432022961520650
It’s an event where beginners and advanced programmers alike are encouraged to support projects and development on Github and Gitlab
So, you can get a feel, or at least a look at different things that are done in with python
obsidian acorn
Night
fluid matrix
Hi guys what's your view on this?
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/10-jobs-safe-ai-world-kai-fu-lee/
untold rain
main thicket
People are wayyy too obsessed with what is and isn't safe from AI
If your job is dull and repetitive and/or data focused, an AI can likely do it. You don't need to think that much further than that
obsidian acorn
Yeah, get a job on making and maintaining AI and you ll be almost set
Until the time when AI no longer need humans to keep them up to date
vivid dock
The day ai can reliable improve itself
Saying reliable as it is already rewriting itself to this day
halcyon turret
A CNN
vivid dock
Its probably not much modifying happening, but its improving itselfs efficiency. Its a few years since I heard the story, so dont have the source im afraid
little harbor
I don't think any job is safe from AI
once AI breaks into creative, we are all screwed if we don't accept transhumanistic implants.
ocean barn
deus ex, here we come \o/
indigo sleet
Don't take the upgrade!
indigo sleet
@fast magnet This is a discussion channel, we don't currently have any system for recruitment
fast magnet
ah okay sorry!
latent skiff
Hi people!
I am relatively new in python...
i have read beginners' book and i can write basic code
what skills does companies need to hire? can you be hired with basic nowledge?
vapid jay
Being a developer is more of having the right "mindset" to solve problems than to know languages
I would have no problem hiring someone who doesn't know much of a language, but can structure a problem and find efficient solutions for solving it
latent skiff
i understand what you say but knowing only one programming language is enough to get hired though?
vapid jay
Depends on what the company is asking for
If they are looking for e.g. a Python developer, well
but more generally, it's a good idea to look at other programming languages, you'll learn stuff, even for your Python programming
I would recommend 1 low level language so you understand what's going on with memory, and 1 functional language
exercism.io is a great place to train, chose the mentor mode, highly recommended 😃
(it's free)
latent skiff
ok ill try exercism.io
but are there in general any basic skills that a python programmer should exhibit to the recruiters to get hired?
mint halo
@latent skiff popular interview question has been about default arguments for functions in my experience and efficient looping
latent skiff
sure!
vapid jay
OK, don't cheat 😉
latent skiff
i won't
vapid jay
So the question was simply: Given the number from 1 to 50, create a function which returns all the possible combinations, the sum of which is N
mint halo
ohhh I like that one
vapid jay
so if N = 5, your function should return [[5], [4,1], [3,2], [3,1,1], [1,1,1,1,1], etc]. You can also do permutations if you want (so [4,1] and [1,4] would be 2 different results)
latent skiff
how much time should i need for that?
vapid jay
I had 10 minutes, but just to think about the algorithm, not implement it
take the time you need
latent skiff
ok
vapid jay
by the way: if you can implement it (whatever the time you need for it), you shouldn't consider yourself a beginner anymore
it's quite an advanced algorithm
latent skiff
😃
it should only make the sum with only 2 numbers right?
for ex 5 could be [4,1] and not [1,2,2] right? or should i do all the posibilties ex. [1,1,1,1,1] [1,1,1,2] etc
little harbor
Hint.
import itertools
r = range(sum)
for c in itertools.combinations(range):
if sum(c) = sum:
print(c)
seems slow
little harbor
I provided basically pseudocode.
it's meant to be a hint, not handing you the solution. 😉
latent skiff
should i know how to use itertools to solve that?
mint halo
it likely wouldn't fly in the interview but in real life you probably would end up using it
little harbor
I mean, just lookup the library. 😛
@vapid jay @latent skiff
Anyway, I feel it's a bad interview challenge.
It's the type of thing that's too confusing to work out in your head without an IDE.
also, there's a british? TV show with a game similar to the problem.
pretty sure there's an algorithm that would perform it best.
lime hamlet
Has anyone here started programming as a change of career after not previously getting a degree in coding?
wanton holly
i'd imagine a fair few have. do you have a specific question you'd like to ask? ^-^
lime hamlet
Well, I guess I've been studying for hours every night for about 3 weeks now and I just am a little nervous I'm going to get to where I feel really competent and then get turned down because I don't have a degree.
@wanton holly
My plan is to just spend the bulk of my free time on coding and building a nice github for about the next 6 months then start a job search.
wanton holly
that's a decent plan
lime hamlet
I'm using teamtreehouse.com because it was recommended by a friend in the field.
wanton holly
you see, you get people who have a really good record of formal education, but some of them can't show that they have any actual experience. if you can prove that you're capable, that'll be sufficient for many employers. (then again, i'm 16 so i'm only using common sense and what other people have said :D)
lime hamlet
The irony is, I am currently a manager and I host tons of interviews. I'm just unfamiliar with the field!
wanton holly
oh i see ^-^
focus on building up a good github/gitlab profile with a wealth of contributions to various open-source projects, and add a lot of your own projects too. maybe make your own little blog, stick the source for that on github too.
lime hamlet
The blog is a great idea!
wanton holly
certainly. especially if you host/manage it yourself and have a nice domain on it.
lime hamlet
I do have my own website, so it would be easy to just tack that on
thank you
gonna run now. Appreciate the pointer!
wanton holly
sure thing. you could ask again at some point later to get some more opinions, or you could search this channel's history as there's a wealth of relevant information in there that you could have a look at.
rare sand
@lime hamlet you will be turned down by some employers without education, but with a decent portfolio and if you are capable enough to handle yourself in interviews and technical tests, others might hire you. I don't have a degree and managed to switch careers to dev. it wasnt easy but it's possible.
vapid jay
@little harbor that's why I wasn't asked to implement it, but to write an algorithm to solve it. For that you just need paper and a pen :p
lime hamlet
@rare sand Thank you. I'm doing the "tech degree" program from a good website, hopefully that counts for more than not having anything at all. Do you recommend going back to school? I definitely would rather not, but if I must then I must.
rare sand
I couldn't say. I didn't and it worked out for me.
lime hamlet
@rare sand Fair enough! Only one way to find out I guess.
ocean barn
I went back to school and now I work a dream job
halcyon turret
the "degree VS non-degree debate happens here a lot"
I think the overall answer is that "it depends"
and that some employers will require degree and some won't
and that it is more difficult without a degree but still perfectly doable
cold bay
Hi Guys, i am in a dilamma about choosing either datascience or web development as a career, i am working as a dev now(Python), i have a little bit of experience with web development. Any suggestions?
solemn valley
people appear to overestimate things like cs degrees. Every single cs professor I've talked to said that a cs degree is barely related to coding at all and people vastely overestimate its use for writing real applications
cold bay
I see both web dev/apps and data science is the trend now
halcyon turret
Well many cs degrees don't teach python anyway
So if you want a python job ur gonna have to self-teach the language
solemn valley
For data science at least a bit of a mathsy background is required, for web development you usually dont need math
so if you like maths and wanna do maths in programming do data science
and otherwise web
ocean barn
and if none of that appeals and you like to do a bit of tinkering with deploying software find a training program in IT or even DevOps if such a program exists now (didn't when I started)
cold bay
I do have math background, but it seems like the work of data scientist revolve around providing solution to business problems .. i think it doesn't have much coding part in it (most of the data scientist use jupyter as a IDE so i am kinda of assuming the coding will be less, please correct me if i am wrong)
solemn valley
jupyter is used to write code
halcyon turret
it really depends
data science isn't just businesses, it's government agencies and academia also
solemn valley
you still write the same amount of code as you would in IDLE or VsCode or w/e
cold bay
I see thx, one more question is it really necessary to dig into topics like meta classes or design patterns when you don't really use them at work?
solemn valley
you cant realize where to use them if you dont know them
cold bay
👍 thx
solemn valley
Only if you write bigger stuff in it I'd say. Basic shell scripting can be done by the vast majority of Linux users
But can you.... Write a one liner to view all the files including hidden ones
tawny quartz
Yes, it is worth putting on your resume that you know Bash
icy berry
I feel that you need to know it pretty well to put it on a resume.
you should also adjust for the Dunning-Kruger effect
fast magnet
do you know any python/django dev shops that hire remote developers?
sweet spade
sure
indigo sleet
This channel is for discussion, not recruitment
mint halo
@icy berry it is so easy to write suicide Bash. I would be careful putting it on your resume. There are a ton of curveballs in Bash.
ocean barn
you could write 'I can read, understand and use bash snippets I find on stackoverflow' :D
karmic bramble
I code bush scripts
vapid jay
Aussie detected.
little harbor
I'm having a hard time with interviews in general. As a generalist, I seem to fail in places where they seem to be looking for experts.
Also, there's a few skillsets in particular that frustrate me, because I care too little about them to be able to spend time learning them.
obsidian acorn
At least you know where you fall short. You need to improve yourself, in terms of finding out what they employers want, and try to get a grasp of it before the interview
there is no way you are going to an interview, and be able to do every single thing that the employer is looking for, but you have to be able to show that you did your homework, and be able to yield results.
little harbor
@obsidian acorn I'm always improving myself, I just think businesses are typically pretty narrowminded.
You get "leaders" that direct a company, and they just want followers. I'm less of a follower.
obsidian acorn
well, half of them don't even understand what you are doing anyway, unless the interview is done by a lead programmer
a good leader, however, is a great follower
keep that in mind.
halcyon turret
what about Steve Jobs
tawny quartz
Good companies often want to hire leaders
Being self-directed and autonomous are good qualities that are desirable to many organizations
vapid jay
I also see many people fail as developers because they know very well a language, but are just bad at structuring a problem. If you write a program using perfect syntax, comments, good naming convention, etc, but you need 3 loops on a problem that need 1 (if you're clever and thought well about the problem), high chances are that you won't be hired
There are also people who tend to answer using high-level built-in functions, so they don't have to actually solve the problem. That's a bad idea too. When an interviewer asks "how would you calculate all the permutations of a given list?", answering with itertools is not a good idea. You can mention it, but you gotta be able to implement that method from scratch
mint halo
agree with the second part but the first is really depending on writing hot or cold code paths. I have way more often seen problems when team members wanted different levels of abstractions...
tidal socket
I’m sorry tf, [ is a command in bash?
cunning notch
this doesn't seem like a #career-advice topic
little harbor
so, how to get past interviews?
a lot of interviews are solely about finding someone for the role that someone imagines.
I feel like it's usually, narrow minded.
in every role I've ever had, I've had to fill other roles as well, other than what were described.
real python
Primarily by changing your attitude. They're finding someone for a role because that's what they need, and denigrating them for it isn't really going to get you very far. It's going to be really difficult to find a job if the position description you're looking for is "generic programmer" because that's generally not how hiring works. It goes without saying that the position can and most likely will expand/evolve as you spend more time there. If you want to be leader of these supposed narrow minded people and not learn parts of the tech stack because they don't interest you, then maybe your best bet will be to form your own company, and as CEO you can do whatever you want.
little harbor
@real python okay, but what I wind up doing is never the same as what they hired me for.
I'm convinced that many of these companies have no idea what their needs are.
hollow mantle
ding ding ding
little harbor
so for them to try to judge you based on highly specific technicalities of the role they have in mind, just obstructs them and you from working something out.
real python
Then I guess your only option is to found your own company
hollow mantle
Get a few products out there and enjoy the passive income
little harbor
@real python That's a cop out. I'm not just complaining, I'm bringing it up so I can better understand how I might apply for positions and get hired.
I'm interested in building my own company, but there's a supreme difference in difficulty between "figure out, start your own business" vs "get hired by someone" typically.
I'd think.
real python
It's not a cop out. The solution is to adjust your attitude because it's very likely that it's showing through in how you conduct yourself during the interview. Or be your own CEO.
hollow mantle
Interviews are like 70% how much they like you as a person
little harbor
ignore that, unproductive, lazy response.
rare sand
that's not a valuable career skill :P
hollow mantle
You could be a programming guru and still not succeed in interviews if you can't get people to like you
little harbor
@hollow mantle okay, and I understand that, but that's just stupid.
hollow mantle
Agreed
little harbor
I mean, I would want my coworkers to be awesome people too.
but judging people, through a medium they know you're judging them in, in a highly pressured situation, is kinda nuts.
thinks about how he might hire people if he were in that position.
rare sand
not really. it's the best you got as a recruiter. a talented programmer is valuable, but a talented programmer who doesn't work well with the team is worthless. even a shitty programmer who everyone likes is worth more than that.
a talented programmer who can't work with others can actually be highly destructive
little harbor
sure, that's a good point too.
real python
Not really. "You're narrow minded" "I don't want to learn things I'm not interested in" "I want to be a leader, not a follower" "You don't know how to hire good people" aren't particularly endearing mottos to bring to an interview, regardless of how true they are
rare sand
if I get a coworker whose python is a bit weak, I can train them. but if I get an asshole for a coworker there's really nothing I can do.
little harbor
@real python you're making it sound as if i'm closed minded, when in reality I spend all of my free time trying to expand and further myself. I'm just not convinced that thing is important enough to dedicate time to.
It's not that I refuse to learn it's that what they think is important, isn't.
little harbor
sure, I was bitching earlier.
@rare sand well, in this case, asshole is also extremely subjective. the asshole is different things in different situations.
I'm an asshole in that I'm opinionated, often, but I'm totally on board with learning things, especially if I believe they're relavent. 😛
good example of labeling theory in psychology ^
hollow mantle
Being open minded includes things that you don't necessarily agree with. I.E things you don't deem important.
little harbor
I recently interviewed, and they asked me highly technical questions about very very specific tools in linux.
I was confused as hell. Nobody knows that specific tool, typically, because that doesn't matter.
jaunty steppe
what tool
little harbor
in this case, traceroute
jaunty steppe
that's not really an obscure tool
little harbor
the question was how it works.
I didn't say it was obscure, I said the question was specific, to the point no one cares, typically.
I'm not going to spend my life memorizing bullshit that basically does not matter.
hollow mantle
What I would do there is instead explain the steps you would take to obtain that information
little harbor
I explained why I didn't know it, but that I've used it often, and where I'd look for the exact answer, and how I imagine it works in theory.
But, if they wanted a discussion about the topic, it's better to just have a discussion, not charge me with the obligation of creating interest, based on discussion of an irrelavent specific nature of a tool.
hollow mantle
Honestly it sounds like you're main issue isn't your computer skills
jaunty steppe
That's not a great way of selling yourself as a potential employee
rare sand
did you learn how traceroute works yet? :P
little harbor
yes, one of my two given theories was correct.
- Dedicated icmp broadcast that returns a signal from each configured hop
- icmp broadcast with a simple expiry attached (this)
@hollow mantle I get they want someone to be more personable in an interview, but that requires your interviewer not to be a dead fish in the first place.
hollow mantle
That's the thing, you need to be able to impress a dead fish
little harbor
and also not putting you in a highly stressful situation that and judging you on a lie, while talking about unrelated garbage that isn't particularly interesting.
like, obviously traceroute isn't exactly open material, because none of us are going on about it further.
Meanwhile, I tried to kinda explain how I was interested in similar work to thing interviewer had been working on and I'd love to learn aall about that because it genuinely sounds interesting.
rare sand
just.. for the record. all packets have expirations attached, and it's not really a broadcast. it's just a simple loop that sends pings and increases the TTL by 1 for each iteration. the TTL is how many hops it should last. that way it gets a response from all the hops until the package actually manages to make it to its destination, and uses all those responses to build the traceroute map.
(but that's not suuuper relevant to this discussion, sorry)
hollow mantle
I didn't put much weight into social skills myself until I dated a social butterfly and I realized how bad I was
Also took a shit ton of psychedelics
little harbor
@hollow mantle I have social skills, but socializing requires a two way street of conversation.
sucks at socializing, because I don't care about chitchat, small talk, BS.
hollow mantle
That was/is me. Turns out small talk isn't at all about the subject matter.
There was a study that went into how people view individuals with low social skills/interactions. They actively saw them as less capable people
no matter their actual skill
little harbor
I'd love to find that study.
hollow mantle
One sec
little harbor
See, holy shit, we're random people on the internet talking. I'm enjoying it, and you're pointing to interesting psychological study of how people appreciate/determine capabilities.
Plenty social! 😛
It's also a matter of goal. My goal isn't to make you happy, my goal is to learn and chat.
hollow mantle
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/7xzq7h/dishonest_people_are_viewed_as_less_capable/
Okay I quoted it wrong, it's been a while. This focuses on dishonesty, but the same idea applies.
umbral valley
little harbor
@hollow mantle that title is screwed up.
dishonest people are viewed as less capable because their actions indicate low social intelligence IF THEY'RE CAUGHT
hollow mantle
Well yeah that would make sense though right?
If you're a good lier, you're socially adept
little harbor
dishonest people use their dishonesty to bolster perceived capabilities, which gets them hired.
hollow mantle
There's some truth in "Fake it till you make it"
little harbor
... so, basically this is a psychological study that says, I'm not a liar.
that's funny.
and soul crushingly depressing, because I don't fucking fake it, nor do I want to.
hollow mantle
Sounds like you don't need to either. Of course I don't have the full picture, but from my point of view, you should focus on programming the people in your interviews, not the computers
little harbor
yes, I should definitely spend more effort on being a people person, but I also lack some skillsets to be an extremely effective developer, namely sql data structures design patterns
halcyon turret
Programming people 
little harbor
@hollow mantle so these, people are they like, NPCs ?
hollow mantle
People error codes are a lot harder to work with. It's usually body language or voice patterns.
The language is harder too, because you've got to manage extra chemical reactions in their brain addition to binary meaning.
little harbor
in my previous customer service roles, my most effective quality was outright being abrupt, "look, I understand the problems you've run into in the past with us, but you're talking to me now. let's do this, and I'll make sure this ends here and now so you can go happy without wasting any more of your time"
hollow mantle
Customer service is hell
little harbor
has a big idea.
Imagine if you could make a customer service phone system that tagged your representatives by their skill sets.
Like, if a customer liked a more conversational person, they could hit a button,
versus an annoyed customer that just wants it solved quick.
anywho
little harbor
well, you'd have to have a large enough customer service team that you can maintain availability of the classes.
you'd also probably have to figure out how many people call in with each type in mind.
halcyon turret
everyone would click the option to get it solved quick
little harbor
depends on the customer service as well. I dread calling in to places, because there's inevitably a hold time, and I blame the business for that.
"we're experiencing higher than usual wait times", says the IRS. 100% of the times because they're understaffed.
Anyway!
To get back on topic, #career-advice I suppose I need to improve those "lyingsocial skills" 😉
little harbor
@hollow mantle @rare sand
Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble off incoherently and offtopic.
I suppose a productive question would be.
"How can I be a better and more social person, to go farther, without becoming one of those people that I hate?"
halcyon turret
who do you hate ?
little harbor
first thing that comes to mind, liars.
I'm capable of lying, and everyone lies to a small extend in every day basis, especially to normalize a world.
...but I've made a lot of character desicions about refusing to lie or mislead, or manipulate, because of what i've had to grow up with.
I don't want to be a manipulative person. These are qualities I view as effectively evil.
mild zenith
How is this relevant to the topic of #career-advice?
little harbor
It started as, companies don't seem to even know what they need which went on towards social skills and a related study brought up demonstrating that lying well is effectively what it takes to be a social person
so the tanget collapses with the idea that, "I need to accept lying sometimes to be more social, to do better in interviews" ha
halcyon turret
LOL
molten knoll
Hey friends
I'm considering a CS degree from a local uni that's not that expensive
How bad of an idea is it?
mild zenith
2 year or 4 year?
molten knoll
I already have an associates but I'm not sure how many credits would transfer, so, four year?
umbral valley
The college your degree from matters much less than actually have a degree
mild zenith
Unless it's like taught out of some dude's shed
Having the degree shows you're willing to put in the work
umbral valley
So it’s not a bad idea st all. Assuming it’s accredited
molten knoll
Real college, it's been around for awhile
Temple or Penn State hopefuly
I'm sick of community college
mild zenith
Oh yeah, then go for it
real python
Community college is very often used as an avenue to take some of the prerequisites required at other (generally more expensive) institutions. There were quite a few transfer students at my engineering school and they did just fine
mild zenith
There's no shame in getting a better deal
molten knoll
Community is just as or more expensive per class as alot of the non-ludicrous tier colleges
I already have the prerequisites so I shouldn't have to take too many of them
mild zenith
Then go for it. Sounds like you've already made up your mind
umbral valley
Almost every state I’ve looked into has it so community college classes transfer 1:1 to 4 year so ideally you shouldn’t have to retake any of them
molten knoll
God I hope not
So is the salary for a CS graduate as high as everyone says or is it just a meme?
mild zenith
Wouldn't know, I dropped out
umbral valley
It depends on your area. My area is 55-60, but high pop cities can double that
And the area
molten knoll
I'm not opposed to moving, I know NYC and Cali are the programming hotspots.
Although I'd still rather live somewhere with a not-horrible cost of living
umbral valley
Yeah that’s why their pay is so high. :p
Huntsville, where I am, is quite nice. Low cost of living and a ton of govt jobs
I’ve heard San Antonio is real nice too
Huntsville al that is
real python
But you also have to live in Alabama, and it's hot 😃
molten knoll
Better than living in NYC
little harbor
My community college had surprisingly spectacular instructors.
and a couple of terrible ones. >.>
vapid jay
I thought about going to the US when I was younger, but the health care system discouraged me
sonic kestrel
How difficult is it to get a data science job?
vapid jay
its not difficult if you’re good and passionate at and about it
chrome sparrow
vapid jay
maybe he lied about his music taste in order to relate the recruiter
little harbor
@molten knoll don' tmake the mistake of sticking around for bad instructors
community college is fine for getting stuff out of the way.
don't waste your time on bad teachers though.
the moment you get bad vibes from them, exit/transfer that class.
past lichen
Career wise what are the most common jobs for python programmers?
halcyon turret
web back end
data analysis
machine learning
little harbor
what's a blocked message?
halcyon turret
click it @little harbor
little harbor
I've never seen a blocked message, what makes it blocked?
halcyon turret
you blocked the sender
jaunty steppe
it also makes them unable to react emojis on your messages
lean stirrup
Does anyone have good pro/cons or recommendations/warnings about consulting places compared to working directly for a company?
trim stone
consulting means you can consult
little harbor
https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/9n4hav/amazon_reportedly_killed_an_ai_recruitment_system/
Ignore the sexist BS.
Interesting to see how they culminated the language model and how it produced based on buzz words.
limpid raven
Hey i got a question will a data science degree be very valuable in getting a software engineering job (not web dev)
vapid jay
It will be valuable, it comes down to what you do with it tho
sweet spade
@limpid raven maybe, maybe not. It'll open some doors for you, certainly, but you're going to have to show competence in other attributes as well
like thinking your way through a problem, structuring code, readability, and more
lunar harness
i dont think your degree means anything unless you prove your skills to your employer
sweet spade
degrees are useful for opening the door
getting past hr and getting actual interviews
after that, its up to you to demonstrate your competence
hollow mantle
I've got a preliminary phone interview today and apparently they already turned down people that were qualified but "didn't fit the culture".
They didn't offer me one at first because I didn't have a ton of experience, but they decided to give me a chance.
So basically landing this job will depend mostly on my ability to be likeable
zealous bramble
anyone have experience with amazon SDE II onsite interviews?
just got a surprise email for an interview on monday, haven't prepared at all
hollow mantle
Research the hell out of everything on their qualifications list
zealous bramble
that's the thing, there's no link to the qualifications for this specific position
since SDE II could vary quite a lot
the recruiter just emailed me with an overview of what i'd be doing in that position, not necessarily the requirements are
fallen trout
What’s the difference between computer science, computer engineering, software engineering and which ones have the best future prospects?
And while we’re at it, is an AI engineering degree worth it ? Or should I double major in computer science/engineering if I’m gonna study AI engineering to be safe?
solemn valley
computer science is the science behind computers, its a usually rather theoretical part with less focus on actual coding
computer engineering is about the electronics in computers
and software engineering is the actual creation of software
I am not sure about the future of all of these but none of them are a bad thing to study for sure
tight marsh
I would caveat that slightly by saying some schools lump Software Engineering and Computer Science in to a single Computer Science degree. For instance I technically have a masters in computer science but I don't do theory. The bulk of my courses were practical applications.
halcyon turret
AI is often masters
fallen trout
@halcyon turret universities have been opening up bachelors for AI engineering
halcyon turret
IDK probably
tight marsh
Without seeing a curriculum it's hard to generalize but I think it's safe to say if the college is good that all of the CS-adjacent degrees are going to be fine. Maybe just make sure you take software engineering fundamentals so that you're aren't a pure theory data scientist.
fallen trout
sweet spade
ai is essentially math
halcyon turret
Neural Nets?
sweet spade
well, you need formulas for backpropagation, right
how do you define and implement them?
halcyon turret
Tensorflow
fallen trout
Ai math seems hard, in the introductory lesson in my online course, the dude expected me to know how 3 dimensional and 4 dimensional graph equations work
tight marsh
I was going say, unless you're on the razor's edge there are plenty of ways to play with AI without being well versed in the maths. Keras is a great way to get your feet wet on some simple image recognition tasks.
halcyon turret
Keras runs on top of Tensorflow anyway
halcyon turret
Why not learn TF
tight marsh
Why learn C++ and not assembly?
solemn valley
because it can get confusing for people who dont want to learn about math and tensors
solemn valley
He was asking why somebody would want to learn a low level thing if he is just getting started with high level understandings
halcyon turret
I prefer low-level first then high-level after
hollow mantle
You're not as effective if you don't understand what's going on
solemn valley
so you would give a 7 year old a TUI only machine instead of graphical to get him started
solemn valley
get him started on computers
halcyon turret
I would give a 7 year old something like Gamemaker engine
hollow mantle
High -> low level isn't actually a terrible way to learn. That's kind of how education works.
solemn valley
its about his first computer experience not programming
halcyon turret
I think C or C++ as first language works well personally
A lot of unis here teach those first
Low level first can work well
fiery pond
Guys, I want to know your opinions. After a very long time I got a job as an "administrator". They wanted someone with high level knowledge of Excel and a European language. In the interview I did nothing related to excel at all besides I was copy pasting rent offers from a website to an excel spreadsheet (title, phone, email, URL...) . While I was waiting for their decision whether they chose me or not. I got the idea, that if got the job a could use my knowledge of Python or actually practise python on building Web scrapers and I did, I build already 4 and I made them bug free. I got the job and the the moment it is just copying and pasting data from websites to the database of the company. Not even to the excel spreadsheet. It's a gui form. And I believe you already see the problem. I have a tool in my hands that would do my 5 hours job in just a few minutes. I see an opportunity how to finally use Python for something useful, how to get closer to my dream of becoming a programmer but it could also end up really bad for me, if they didn't realize this can be automated they would now. I still have the advantage of knowing that European language but until I just copy paste phone numbers and emails it really doesn't matter. What should I do? Should I keep it home or offer it to them somehow I would have a profit from, even if just for experience and that I could say I have a real experience to my future employer
fiery pond
Yes, well I see it's difficult to say what to do in my position I believe
fiery pond
Ms office?
fiery pond
that sounds great, that would bring even more attention to Python
vapid jay
what careers are there that requires python
hollow mantle
yes
vapid jay
linkedin is so magical
fluid matrix
@fiery pond
I have a tool in my hands that would do my 5 hours job in just a few minutes. I see an opportunity how to finally use Python for something useful, how to get closer to my dream of becoming a programmer but it could also end up really bad for me, if they didn't realize this can be automated they would now
that's quite a dilemma you have there
rare sand
you wouldn't be the first person to automate yourself out of a job
I've done it myself
but for a while I just didn't let them know and I suddenly had hours of free time every day in the office which I spent learning more dev.
that did eventually backfire, though
fluid matrix
that's the thing, it potentially can backfire and the way he wrote that post it seems like he needs that job.
@fiery pond
I think the way to approach it quite depends on so many things you didn't mention.
is your manager an open-minded individual?
little harbor
@fiery pond
Multiple options.
- give it to them
- give it to them, but don't help them run it.
- organize a contract, so you're rewarded and move on to another job
- throw the tool away
If they're willing to throw you away so easily, you really don't owe them anything.
lunar harness
@rare sand they fired you because you got work done faster?
fiery pond
yes, I feel kinda proud of myself I am able to automate my work but on the other hand it seems I won't get a chance to use it. Yes, I need the job, because I don't know the local language perfectly yet, that's why I'm pretty happy I got it even though it's so repetitive. My other option - teaching English, is not my thing and never will be. So maybe better if I stay quiet and keep working on my skills home... I could come with it later because this project is going to last only half a year and try to impress them with it to get another contract doing something like this, maybe.
rare sand
@lunar harness not quite. but my automating stuff was incredibly unpopular with my management
vapid jay
Should you know various languages before pursuing a career in programming
short jacinth
not necessarily but it helps I imagine
if you want to be a web dev, knowing multiple languages is inevitable
since you must know at least the triplet js/css/html (inb4 "css and html aren't programming languages")
vapid jay
Yea i figured with web
short jacinth
I'd say it's not required to be proficient in multiple languages when starting a career, but you will inevitably learn other languages on the way
short jacinth
as the scope and scale of applications become bigger
so increases the number of tools employed
I can at least reassure you that python is a wonderful starting point
I'm a veteran coder myself but my past 3 years have been 95% python and I'm moving to a new job which will be, again, mostly python
vapid jay
nice
thick magnet
Won't office fully support Python very very soon ?
Nope, don't think so. I believe they looked into it a while back and decided not to. They seem to have instead add some javascript capabilities, in excel 2016+. @vapid jay https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/office/dev/add-ins/excel/excel-add-ins-core-concepts
fluid matrix
@fiery pond yes, I feel kinda proud of myself I am able to automate my work but on the other hand it seems I won't get a chance to use it. Yes, I need the job, because I don't know the local language perfectly yet, that's why I'm pretty happy I got it even though it's so repetitive. My other option - teaching English, is not my thing and never will be. So maybe better if I stay quiet and keep working on my skills home... I could come with it later because this project is going to last only half a year and try to impress them with it to get another contract doing something like this, maybe.(edited)
I might have some suggestion for you to handle this properly! what type of manager are you dealing with?
an open minded person or totaly the inverse?
fiery pond
@fluid matrix I don't know yet, haha, I will give it some days to find out, get familiar with the environment, but I will be in touch with you then. Have you lived a similar situation?
fluid matrix
@fiery pond
I have a friend who went through the same thing and what he did was first to earn the trust of his manager by producing quality work constantly without supervision for a couple of weeks, then he interested his manager to allow him one day a week to work from home.
what he did was, on the days where he works from home, he would automate stuff and produce 3x more and use the rest of the time to learn to program.
after a couple of months, his manager noticed that every time my friend worked from home, he got more work done than he did in the office, so he interested my friend to switch the schedule to only coming to the office once a week and working from home the rest of the week.
after two months of constantly being productive, he asked his manager to allow him to start teaching programming one day a week in the office.
this dude he's now seen as a demi-god at his job and he is now "the programmer" of the company.
fiery pond
wow, haha such a cool story! Alright, that sounds like a good plan. I will keep working on my skills home and in the meanwhile I will do whatever they want me to do there.
and when it's the right time, I will try to propose small changes
fluid matrix
Yeah, he played the long game and introduced programming to the company as a teacher, not as an employee who just wants to get his job done fast and move along with his day.
that's why he's been perceived differently and now making more money than his previous manager.
fiery pond
yeah, that's a great approach. I do programming in my freetime all the time lately, instead watching the tv or playing pc games. I'm trying to be constantly thinking about solving things in Python because I can fall in laziness pretty fast, so I'm trying to keep building web scrawlers and even though it might seems that there is a repetitive pattern in it I always run into some new things.
and I believe there is no better way how to learn anything than to teach it, haha
fluid matrix
yep
Get the following book: Think Like a Programmer ( by V. Anton Spraul)
this book will change the way you approach programming.
The second book you should get is: Automate the Boring Stuff with Python (by Al Sweigart)
fiery pond
I have read Automate the Boring Stuff with Python and I'm reading Think Like a Programmer now, but I was kinda busy. I want to use the time to practise programming, but maybe I should switch to the book instead for now and come back later.
lunar harness
is this about the job that you said you wanted to automate earlier?
fiery pond
yes
lunar harness
do you think the people you work for will mind?
or do you think that they will accept that you automate your work?
fiery pond
I like the approach of the friend of @fluid matrix I want to do it like that... I will work as normal and keep working on my skills home until there I they know I am a trustable and able to do my job automated way or not
vapid jay
@vapid jay You can go into healthcare, informationservices, banking (kinda), consulting...they all have "need" for data scientists. However, i think especially the start up and tech scene will require python, since it is one of the best data analytics tools
real python
@vapid jay Please see the channel topic, this channel is not for recruitment
gusty stump
has anyone done a coding apprenticeship ie. Software engineering and done a degree with it? If so what were your thoughts on it?
solemn valley
If you have a specific question related to code and dont want to recruit somebody to do it for you, feel free to use one of the many help channels
limpid raven
Hey i have a question, do alot of data scientists work alot of hours?
And is the salary typically better than a software engineer?
obsidian acorn
It varies
Both of those work in projects, as in the work till a part of a project is done, and so on
This may mean, in both cases, that they work long hrs to reach deadlines
Some data scientists get better pay, but the pay depends on skills, knowledge, and years of the experience, as well as how demanding what you have to offer is in the company
limpid raven
But in all reality in your opinion do data scientists havr better hours and pay than a web dev or a software engineer?
Like sadly data sciencs isnt much in demand as a web dev or a software engineer but do they at lease get better pay or better hours?
zealous bramble
They can, it depends where you work. Most SWE jobs are 9-5/40 hours per week or less. Data scientists are similar. The pay can be higher, but it also requires a master's or PhD to get into the industry. A SWE with 3-5 years of industry experience could easily manage to pull in the same kind of salary as a fresh data scientist - if not more.
halcyon turret
you can get data science jobs without masters or PhD
zealous bramble
No, I'm saying most jobs in general are 40 hours per week, but it depends on where you work
zealous bramble
If you work at a large tech company you could be expected to work more than 40 hours, but that also depends on your team
limpid raven
So if that is correct is the pay typically more than a software engineer
zealous bramble
That also depends
The barrier of entry is higher, but the starting pay is higher usually
limpid raven
Like i love math and data science but sadly software engineering is more in demand lol
zealous bramble
Are you studying it in college?
limpid raven
So that is why i want to know does data science at least have the edge in pay?
Im learning python
zealous bramble
I mean you can do things with math that aren't necessarily data science, if all you're concerned about is the pay
limpid raven
I mean i like data science more than swe
Do data science jobs have the edge in pay over swe?
zealous bramble
SWE is a pretty broad field
limpid raven
Yeah that is true, but since swe jobs are more in demand tha data science, i just want to know if data science jobs get more pay
Like is the money system on data science better than swe?
zealous bramble
Sure, a data scientist will probably have a higher starting salary straight out of college compared to a SWE, but you'd be able to enter the industry faster as a SWE
Seeing as by the time you'd be done with your education, a SWE will have 3+ years of experience and will be making more than a data scientist with 0 years.
I just think doing something just for the money is a poor reason to do something. if you like it, do it, but saying that you are doing it because you love math and data science and then only focusing on how much more they make vs engineers seems sort of disingenuous
limpid raven
But data science jobs only ask for bachelors degree just like swe
And if both have the same hours
Than what has a better money system or like a better job security
zealous bramble
An undergraduate education in mathematics is nowhere near enough for a job in data science
Unless you supplement with a ton of extracurricular studying and projects
halcyon turret
I know data scientists with just undergrad
zealous bramble
So do I, but they're definitely the exception
limpid raven
So if both are the same hours than there comes the debate of better pay lol
zealous bramble
The vast majority of them have a graduate degree
halcyon turret
are you in america? I think there is less of a focus on graduate degrees here in london
zealous bramble
Yeah, Seattle
halcyon turret
yeah I do think master degree is a bit less important in england
limpid raven
Like if data science doent havr better pay than swe than sadly swe would be better job security wise
halcyon turret
pay and job security are different variable dude
zealous bramble
Both have great job security
halcyon turret
TBH most STEM graduate jobs have decent job security
limpid raven
I see more swe jobs than data science jobs
halcyon turret
oh there are definitely more swes than data scientists in the world
but that doesn't matter rly
a big city will have plenty of opening for both
halcyon turret
if you're looking for higher pay you want something like fintech or financial engineering TBH
in London financial industry pays a premium over other types of programming or data science
limpid raven
I mean data science pay is ridiculous, like if they work regular hours like wow
But swe is more in demand
zealous bramble
Yeah so is engineering pay with a couple years of experience
halcyon turret
depends which area of engineering
oil and gas yes
structural, not so much
zealous bramble
Knew a kid in college who got $240k/y from Facebook right out of college
zealous bramble
If I get an offer from Amazon I'm looking at around the same amount with only 2 years
Under my belt
halcyon turret
I mean, as an opposite anecdote I know an electrical engineer who is on like $80k after 10 years
so it does vary a lot
Shane are you data science or swe ?
halcyon turret
ye
zealous bramble
Some web devs get paid $40k/y, some SREs get $400k
halcyon turret
my friend who is a web dev makes minimum wage 😦
zealous bramble
And the other way around
halcyon turret
I know a PHP dev on $250k lul
but to be fair he owns a whole PHP dev shop
he never wrote anything except PHP haha
feral raven
i was going to be a web dev, then college cancelled my major to balance their budget, now im going software route
zealous bramble
Yikes, wouldn't wish a life of PHP on my worst enemy
halcyon turret
you might end up doing some web dev anyway :D
Java software often uses web-based view layer these days
you get Java devs doing their view in CSS JS
limpid raven
It says updated august 14
halcyon turret
ye but its gonna have sampling bias
limpid raven
What u mean sampling bias
halcyon turret
if u wanna do data science you need to know this LUL
In statistics, sampling bias is a bias in which a sample is collected in such a way that some members of the intended population are less likely to be included than others. It results in a biased sample, a non-random sample[1] of a population (or non-human factors) in which all individuals, or instances, were not equally likely to have been selected.[2] If this is not accounted for, results can be erroneously attributed to the phenomenon under study rather than to the method of sampling.
limpid raven
So ur saying this is a trolling sample lol
wanton holly
yeah
limpid raven
So like how do i find a sample that isnt biased
halcyon turret
you can't