career-advice

[smoky quest]

Yeah, I have interviewed tons of people like that.
They are great at writing 5 lines of code.

Unfortunately, they aren't so great beyond the 5 lines of the core algorithm and their code is shit

[blazing harbor]

I remember this guy from University of Rochester, which is still a great school, but I wouldn't say CMU tier

guy is an absolute demon like back in hungary he won ioi, but ofc it's super hard to be full pay to the US, and hard to get into harvard/mit, etc

still found his way to JST I mean

def rare but when you look at how college admissions work and to be accepted with the flimsy 3-5% acceptance rate to programs like CMU SCS, you def mess out on a lot of good talent

[smoky quest]

yeah, I know folks who rejected JS to join us

[blazing harbor]

how is the growth at ur company

[smoky quest]

doing great! Obviously everyone is careful around the markets, so keeping an eye

[blazing harbor]

is the entry like insanely good

[smoky quest]

yeah, our entry level engineers are insanely great! Not just smart but also very nice to work with

[blazing harbor]

like pay wise

idk other than ramp, which I think is a stupid product, I wouldn't hold much above jst

[smoky quest]

Oh, we aren't in the quant space and do not work the same way

[austere urchin]

Ive got quick question for my fellow developers. I plan on creating a website that not only projects,but my computer science/programming ad my mathematics knowledge. A good example is a program the simulates the register of a cpu in the Computer Architecture section. Is this overkill??

[harsh river]

if this is gonna be part of your portfolio for potential employers, theres no overkill.

[austere urchin]

Yes

I plan on having an interactive interprete/compiler on the website so they can run it in C, Java, or Python

[winged lichen]

Which is better for programming, JS or Python?

[upbeat cloud]

Those are like 2 different languages for 2 separate things.. what are you trying to do?

[winged lichen]

Become a Web developer but im not too sure where to start

[buoyant seal]

it depends on programming what.
For full stack web dev? JS TS.

For backend? I guess python (but ts can do too)
For machine learning? python again
For scripting? well, i guess python again (but ts can do too)

[winged lichen]

Is it convenient to learn both?

[buoyant seal]

You will increase market share u can work with. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I would recommend learning one language in depth first though.
Both languages have... difficult learning curves. They both easy at start... and hard to master.

[buoyant seal]

Both languages have... high toll onto your... time to master and maintain them. I am personally not a fan of learning JS/TS ecosystem because i am already overburdened with Python and many others
If you would have chose learning TS in depth, potentially it would be less of a point learning Python for you

JS-TS and Python have... a lot of... ergh, intersection in their usefulness

[balmy spade]

What type of programming is being done? The project defines which languages should be used, not the other way around.

[buoyant seal]

Our company uses Python for 80%+ backend, and like JS/TS for frontend only
So... with learning both languages u will have a point of being able to work on both directions in a future

The problem is.. if u aim for full stack development, then u aim for full stack development... do u want this choice like or not

learning JS/TS + Python u can use them both either for backend or for full stack stuff pretty much
although both languages are also asked for other web job roles.

you can be even DevOps engineer in any of those two langs (some people write infrastructure code in TS with Pulumi)

Or with JS/TS, u can do even Desktop/Mobile stuff. very multipurpose lang that can do a little bit of everything

[winged lichen]

Thank you largely but if i may ask another question, which are the main differences in using JS/TS as they are implied to be not entirely different from the things they can accomplish?

[buoyant seal]

I would prefer to say, learn the one u can like.
I liked Python enough to master it. I don't like JS/TS I don't learn it.
I chose to like Go, i learned it.
Now i chose to learn Java, just because i am interested in... its properties.

Learn languages you are interested in. Enthusiasm matters.
It can be even Rust 😅

[winged lichen]

I will be ss this and investigating which field I would like to dig in deeply first

[buoyant seal]

TS is everything JS is + Static typing.
TS is still same JS under the hood, you can write exactly same JS code in TS and it will work.
TS just allows adding static (gradual) types to the code and making it of higher quality / better documented / possible to design type safe by design, where it is correct before runtime happened.

[winged lichen]

Thank you, yeah ive heard you shouldnt learn how to program or code if you feel forced to and you dont like it.

[buoyant seal]

Typescript is basically same as Mypy/Pyright for Python stuff. You can do static (gradual) typing in python too. Works well in strict mods

[winged lichen]

Ahhh

What got you into coding/programming and what influenced you to learn a certain language?

Your providing high detail and big information for me so I thank you once again

[buoyant seal]

went through CS degree. We started with C++ because we were forced.
I changed to C#, because i got tired shooting into my own legs with C++ memory failures, and C# was more intuitively easy in general
Then in master's degree with python people just made stuff and it was faster to do.
And then dumb luck got me backend developer job after graduated after i published my resume in my local town / local hiring platform.
I always wished dealing with web sites, so... got hooked eventually.
They hired me doing stuff in Python because Python was mentioned in my resume as i dealt with already a bit.
TLDR: I learned Python because of random event, and due to having backend dev job in python, i mastered it to higher level.

Then i became fan of unit testing, auto validations with type safety (static typing) and discovered that... it is Extremely hard to encounter static typing devs in python
thus my road of learning went into Golang and now drives towards Java.
I desire writing code that is easy to maintain and read. I don't like shoveling... bad stuff in dynamic typed languages all my life 😅
I can make a clean accurate code i like to maintain in python, and i can clean previous bad code in it, Python is familiar evil to me at this point, but i would not wish to learn another dynamic typed runtime interpreted language. Python is enough to me. knowing one scripting language is enough for my career and for rapid scripting

[winged lichen]

I am super fortunate to have talked to you

[buoyant seal]

So.. consider may be u will not desire learning more than one dynamic typed language too 😅 (JS-TS or Python are good dynamic typed languages today)
Although may be u will have a different opinion on code quality and different wishes. That's my own path where i prefer to go.
I learned about code quality in different books i can share

Learning unit testing is always useful for average commercial grade code quality in any language and decreasing frustrations by many dozen times from continuing working with the project code.
https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530

This book teaches practice behind unit testing. On a specific example it walks you through how to have unit testing as part of your development cycle at every moment. It teaches you feeling how much gap between tests is allowed in your working code.

https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279

This book teaches theory behind unit testing. For which goals to aim for, how to escape pitifals. It will explain you importance of unit testing and what kind of testing exists. This book is important to weaponize your skills to an average commercial level development.

[winged lichen]

It is a good path though, the one you took. I think i'll stick to python for now and if i still want to master another code or learn it above the basics (dynamic typed) I'll try doing it with no burden of thought behind it .

Can TS do unit testing?

[buoyant seal]

yes. i poked once at least jest testing framework for that, but there are some other choices

[winged lichen]

Python does aswell yes?

[buoyant seal]

sure, common to do it with pytest testing framework

[winged lichen]

is pycharm an accepted form too?

[buoyant seal]

unit testing is trivial concept that is easy to do in backend, depending on how... much good or bad was code architecture choices were made.
if writing application unit testable from the start and not making extremely bad choices to screw up code architecture, it is possible acheiving 90%+ unit testing coverage without problem
in frontend... unit testing is way more complicated, and static typing is.. usually more important kind of.

[buoyant seal]

it is not important which IDE u use in Python/JS-TS. everything is runnable from CLI for unit tests.
IDE is nice to turn on for features like Visual Debug during unit test execution though, makes really easy debugging them and writing code right from unit tests

[winged lichen]

Are there any specific computer brands better to do this type of work better than others? Or are they all the same?

I am currently on macOs and have not experienced any problems, the only problem was trying to access python but then I saw I have to use another app to execute it .

[buoyant seal]

u a asking at the moment Backend developer, DevOps engineer that uses Docker and infra tools a lot, while developing for Linux servers only.
As person dealing within infrastructure i like adhering to practices that there should be less differences between development and staging/production env https://12factor.net/
For my usage cases, Linux will be always better to work with. And preferably with Amd64 Cpu architecture, because Docker ecosystem is still CPU architecture depended and runs on Amd64 CPU in general.

So... i am very biased against having Mac. I see no point in having it or overpaying 3 times price for it. OS that is harder to work with for web dev, and CPU architecture that is incompatible with 90%+ of modern applications
(I am at the moment trying migrating server infrastructure to Arm64 for cost efficiency, it is somewhat bumpy road 😅 )
With working with web tech on Mac (and Windows) You will be always.. having.. third world level of support to do things for the purpose of development for Linuxes.
Mac and Windows fans tend to ignore all those problems and continue working from them anyway.
You can practice mangably more comfortable web today even from Windows with WSL2, which is basically just having Linux VM pretty much more intergrated with OS...
... but i don't want those problems, i just work straight from Linux
Without using Linux, u will eventually find yourself using VM/ssh tech for every minor action dealing with development for Linux servers. I don't have those issues and can do everything at my own dev machine directly

So.. Mac/Windows fans will be always persuading you that u can develop from it fine for web everything
I disagree, there will be always more problems developing for Linux servers not from Linux machine

As person with Mac, docker will work for you only from Docker Desktop with Linux VM under the hood. So u will be using Docker only over remote connection
And as person with Arm64, while people did not migrate to arm64 entirely, u will not have everything compiling and working as it is working for the rest of the world still living in amd64 architecture.(your Macs today are arm64 cpu architectured)

[winged lichen]

Thats all true , Mac fans convinced me it was supposed to be a better piece of technology to work with while doing online tasks, jobs, commisions, overall everything tech related or web related.

Linux is the one i should be aiming for then yes?

[buoyant seal]

"Macs/Windows are nothing but a problem to me"

[buoyant seal]

if you aim working in field related to web/servers, backend/devops/data engineering or even frontend/full stack stuff
u will find easier time doing it from Linux, because... 99%+ modern servers run on Linux
People use Windows for servers only if they are ancient mammoths. Very uncomfortable experience.
MacOs is not having servers as far as i know at all.

[outer granite]

Is it good to add a portfolio in a resume?

[buoyant seal]

if u are going to develop Windows Desktop apps, easier to do from Windows (ergh, Gaming easier to do from Windows too)
If u are going to develop Desktop or Mobile apps for MacOs/IOS, there is a point doing it from MacOs
In the rest of cases Linux is better default, especially best if you develop any web/server related stuff

[winged lichen]

Thank you for all of your help aswell as clearing any extra obstacles on my road to learning these languages. I have to go eat but i will re read everything you have told me via ss and research and learn more.

[winged lichen]

Thank you.

[balmy spade]

You should have a portfolio, when it makes sense. You should also have a resume. They shouldn't be the same thing. The resume is a single page document focused on highlighting the skills you have which benefit the company you're applying to.

[hearty island]

guys, i did some networking and i think i can set up a brief conversation with someone!

i'm gonna do some researching on the company so i don't make a fool out of myself

[vapid jay]

trying to install pytorch but im getting this

[white relic]

This channel is for career discussion. #❓｜how-to-get-help

[pine sleet]

Can you try py -3 -m pip install torch torchvision torchaudio?

[hearty island]

YOOO

i just got a job referral from someone on fishbowl!

[hearty island]

it’s for BDO LLP, this accounting firm

holy shit i got a referral link for tiktok too

this app is worth its weight in gold

[true harness]

if the app is virtual, does that make it worthless

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/brain-gif-338783462287106063

not sure how to answer that, i'll ask the gods of fishbowl

[keen phoenix]

is it possible to start freelancing after learning python?

[hearty island]

it really depends on what area of the world you live in and how much experience you can really offer. people freelancing on platforms like fiverr do a lot of stuff for very cheap.

[keen phoenix]

ive started 3 days ago and i live in india

[hearty island]

you started programming 3 days ago in python or you had prior experience in other languages and started python 3 days ago?

[keen phoenix]

I am 13 years old male
I am completely new in programming/coding.

python is the first language i am learning

[hearty island]

yea, freelancing will be rather difficult then.

[keen phoenix]

how can i make it easy enough for myself? i am aiming to be advanced in python under 6 months

[hearty island]

!resources should help

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[keen phoenix]

thank you

[terse acorn]

I don’t think speed running would help , you should try to first be really good with python basics and Python Crash Course book will help

[icy zealot]

Hi

[craggy nacelle]

Hi,
I have done DSA 101. I am itching to apply it to real world tasks. How to go about finding a gig to get started ? I want to grow as a software dev engineer.

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Make projects and have fun!
And don't forget that a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.

In terms of jobs, the market is a lot more demanding than for someone who has just been through an intro to CS

[craggy nacelle]

I think I didn't explain my position fully. I have built backend systems and frontends (by learning on the job and tutorials). The focus so far was delivery , albeit hacky.
Off late I realised that I need to go back and learn the basic principles of CS. Did DSA and fell in love with it.
Now I want to work on the ground floor - work on a small piece of a system that someone else owns.
But I am not sure how to go about it. Freelancing sites and the whole bidding thing is so cringe. I would love to just intern / part time work for someone. Entry level too is great! But not sure how to go about it ...

[smoky quest]

Why is entry level too great if you already have built backend systems and frontend?

In general internships are for students to discover what it means to work in the real life. It doesn't look like you are the target audience

[craggy nacelle]

What I mean is - entry level is also good enough for me since I don't have a formal CS degree. Basically want to learn from someone who has a real SDE background.

[smoky quest]

I mean, then make a resume and apply to jobs?

[craggy nacelle]

prefer to do a side hustle for now

[smoky quest]

that would probably lead to small freelancing stuff. You wouldn't learn from the people you want to learn from

[terse acorn]

How much time does it take to create a web application ?

[smoky quest]

between 1 day to 10 years

[terse acorn]

Wait WHAT ?

[smoky quest]

BETWEEN 1 DAY to 10 YEARS

[terse acorn]

10 years what the hell , I wanted to make an application that analyses a students performance based on his grades and recommends study material , how much time will that take ?

[smoky quest]

You won't get an answer like that.
It will be easier for you to work through it. So use the power of dichotomy! Divide this big project in chunks. And divide each of these chunks recursively until they become small enough to be manageable

So think about the requirements, what needs to be working, what needs to be true and decompose them. It will be easier to work out an estimate from it.

[terse acorn]

Wow , you explained to me so well , THANK you 🙏

The thing is I am just starting, I practiced python for a few months until I had some level of understanding , I was able to make some applications.I am now going towards django and then I will go towards understanding HTML and CSS , if you can provide any insights, it would be of great help

[smoky quest]

Sure, but it doesn't change anything to my previous messages.
If you wanted to make an application that analyses a students performance based on his grades and recommends study material, what would need to be implemented?

[terse acorn]

If I am required to answer generally based on my limited knowledge , I would say Data visualisation and some kind of code that is available to all users irrespective of their device , I am looking for a web app so I think I would need APIs to fetch information from the internet about study resources , I also think there should be a server to provide a more accurate understanding of what difficulties a student is facing, it can even be mental issues like anxiety and depression based on this comprehensive survey , I think Chat GPt or some other tool is required to be able to understand and recommend the material

[smoky quest]

Do you also need to identify a student? Or store specific data?

[terse acorn]

Yes my web app should be able to provided a personalised experience and I think identifying a student is a key process to accomplish that.I don’t know what exactly you mean by storing specific data though so can you explain

[smoky quest]

So make a list of all of this, and try to understand what type of code you would need to write for each of these
From there, either you need to subdivide them more or you can give a rough estimate

[terse acorn]

Why didn’t I think of that :()

[smoky quest]

it can be overwhelming the first time

[terse acorn]

It is , I am no where near to the skills required but I hope I will be with consistency and determination

[smoky quest]

one step at a time!

Also look into use case diagram, it can be useful to identify some of the interactions

[terse acorn]

Yess , okay I will 🙂

[tawdry sable]

ok thanks i picked blackrock then tradeweb second

[mortal kite]

A position I am interested in has questions about my academic performance on the application. What is a good way to say "I never really cared about grades, since where I went to school, good grades just meant you were good at memorizing a lot of stuff in the short term and filling in circles. I was more interested in actually learning and understanding the material, and placed a significantly higher value on understanding the world around me."

[white relic]

If a person I were interviewing said something like that, I would wonder what other menial tasks you would deem unimportant enough to skip. Like recording your time or filling out tickets or attending meetings...

acting superior for not caring about grades isn't a good look

it would be better to emphasize, yeah I didn't really put in the effort back then, but I've grown as a person since school

[mortal kite]

I was trying to paraphrase Feynman, but I guess that doesn't fly in an interview.

I'm trying to get across that I care more about knowing than being known.

[umbral frigate]

You could probably get across what you believe in without saying that grades are unimportant.

I'm sure that there is a way to do that and still look like you try. In interviews, first impressions really do matter.

[mortal kite]

"I don't really remember how I did as it has been fifteen years, but I know that my grades weren't the best. I never really tried, as I didn't want to stick out and be a target for bullies." although that was more how I was in middle school than high school.

[white relic]

Quoting Feynman probably works better if you have a Nobel prize

[mortal kite]

Which is hilarious given how much contempt he had for the concept of the nobel prize.

[umbral frigate]

Yeah, you must achieve something to be able to justify your actions.

[mortal kite]

So what is a good neurotypical and/or business-friendly way of saying "I cared more about the concept than the numbers on a piece of paper"?

Since I bet I have to keep that damn neurological mask on for the duration of the interview process.

[white relic]

Contempt for the process isn't really something you can afford to have when you're being judged by it.

Feynman can dunk on the Nobel all he wants. He was an important physicist without it and his work would stand alone

Me personally, a Nobel would be the apex of my career

[mortal kite]

Meh.

[umbral frigate]

You really need something that you can balance on.

Without a good achievement, say high SAT, job experience or some prize, then you can't really say that caring for the concept did anything.

[white relic]

(also, he's dead)

[mortal kite]

Why do you need an external reward?

[mortal kite]

A person is only dead when no one remembers they existed.

[umbral frigate]

It just kinda reinforces the fact that the grading system was indeed pointless and that you were more optimal just doing it your own way. Having something to show really helps in interviews. (not from experience btw, it could be different for you)

[mortal kite]

I guess it all comes back to my favorite rant about how the American public education system is still optimized towards producing physical laborers rather than knowledge workers, although I do not know if that has changed since 2010.

I care more about the joy of learning than being recognized for being learned. I guess I can say that that is one of my weaknesses in the professional world.

I will save a rough draft and meditate on this feedback, clearly I need to think this through more carefully.

[cosmic yarrow]

is there anyone who can give me an interview for 30-40 minutes about theatre for my course work, i need big data and the deadlines are on fire?…. I also need 2 men for this project 👨🏻

[umbral frigate]

Not the correct type of career discussion. Please reread the description of the channel.

[fringe sphinx]

They’re asking about high school 15 years out? Me, I’d leave it blank.

[near ocean]

Kind of a red flag imho, why are they asking about high school

[white relic]

Actually yeah that's a good point

[near ocean]

Got me thinking about HS now, it's been 10 years, damn
The inevitable march of time and whatnot

[white relic]

👴

[near ocean]

Admitting things like "my grades werent the best" is not going to work out
If they ask about HS first you should consider whether you actually want to work there and then if you still do, answer in the most matter of fact, dry way, you had X grade at Y year, thats it, dont elaborate and dont get defensive, you'll look weak even if you werent

[umbral frigate]

I will (sorta) reveal my age... I'm still in highschool 🙂

[mortal kite]

I did some digging, and they don't match on the 401(k) which is a dealbreaker for me. Already removed them from the list.

[near ocean]

Based

[gritty rivet]

LOL, weird deal breaker when most matches are such a small percentage anyway

[mortal kite]

I like to think in the long-term.

I've been getting 15% for the past five years.

[near ocean]

I think its a decent filter
Definitely would not consider an opportunity if it didnt match pay into my pension

(maybe if it paid outrageous salary)

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve been asked exactly once in my career about my grades (college grades), by a startup CEO. He was not impressed by my answer, but the vp of engineering opted to hire me regardless.

[near ocean]

How long did that last

[fringe sphinx]

Wdym?

[near ocean]

Your employment with them

In my two jobs nobody even asked about my degree even, and i went to the trouble of getting two of them

[white relic]

I've also only been asked about college grades and only about the one C on my transcript

I'm content with the grade I got in that class but it was annoying the way they asked

I was a fresh grad then.

[mortal kite]

"I did get a C in my Environmental Pollution class, but that was also the highest grade in the entire class that semester"

[gritty rivet]

That's about triple the average and more than I've ever had. It wouldn't surprise me if the salary was 15% lower as a result

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, a few years until they imploded in the dot com bust, was an awesome ride. Hired as a staff engineer, ended up as the architect and a team lead, was basically the engineer who crossed over to learn the domain.

[mortal kite]

it was enough to pay the bills with some left over for food and my inability to walk past a bookstore without going in and making a purchase

[fringe sphinx]

Just evaluate things based on the total package, not one line item. No matching but sufficiently higher pay could be fine, no?

[gritty rivet]

That's good. My point is just that you always need to look at the whole package and no single benefit means much in isolation (unless maybe you have exceptional need for outstanding health insurance I suppose).

[mortal kite]

The two things that originally caught my eye are "Python Engineer" and "fully remote"

[fringe sphinx]

My advice is always; take the interview, see what they offer, and negotiate in good faith: maybe they’ll make an adjustment.

[mortal kite]

"What are your weaknesses?"
"I'm very impulsive"

[fringe sphinx]

Fire and extreme cold.

[true harness]

I'm a perfectionist 😌

[mortal kite]

"I'm a perfectionist, I'm impulsive, and I have severe driving anxiety."

[buoyant seal]

😛 i had it written once to my performance report as a negative trait.
Except it was worded as: as i can become overly concerned about not the most important details.

[fringe sphinx]

"Bikeshedding Professional"

[near ocean]

Not bad if you can explain how youre getting over it

I notice other juniors spend time on a lot of things that dont really matter, i try to be conscious about it and cut down to the minimum set of required features when i gotta implement things

I've tried to make things more flexible, generic for the future but who cares, not gonna be here for that future lmao

[buoyant seal]

i just can imagine easily how some seniors can be so stuck in the past, and not so seniors in their software engineering best practices
that they could tell it too though. Something like => Docker does not matter, or Unit testing is meaningless, lets cover with testing at the end of product development (if ever)
well, i remember also fun things i did which did not matter too though 😅 (Spent once time trying to fix all pylint things, pretty useless stuff it was)

[vapid jay]

oooh whats that?

That's called bikeshedding. It's when people spend more time talking about minor stuff instead of focusing on the important things. People do this because it's easier to form an opinion on minor details and they want to feel like they're part of the conversation.22 Feb 2023

from LinkedIn

[near ocean]

Its a usual junior dev trait imho

[true harness]

it's a dev trait 😩

[vapid jay]

its okay in moderation

[fringe sphinx]

Oh god no. It's a human trait.

[near ocean]

I havent seen our seniors bikeshed that much tbh
Us juniors and UX dept mostly lmao

Our seniors are the first to suggest we cut smaller features out entirely, kind of trigger happy with it

Maybe theyre too tired of work? 🤷‍♀️

[fringe sphinx]

I think seniors are more sensitive to it... but when it reaches the executive level, it's bikeshedding all the time.

[vapid jay]

relax

[near ocean]

I dont interact with execs, but i can feel it through our seniors

[digital fjord]

It's borne of the desire to contribute, despite being unqualified to do so.

[near ocean]

Juniors and execs both want to feel useful, funny how that works

[true harness]

i think most bikeshedding is done over undefendable/unassailable positions. it's impossible to "convince" someone your color is better

[hearty island]

so from what i’m seeing fishbowl is like a more dynamic linkedin

[jovial crater]

does anybody know of any website which i can use to conduct local code debug competetions?

[hearty island]

what is that

[jovial crater]

you are given a code snippet containing bugs which you need to debug to make the code work as intended

[hearty island]

ah, interesting. i haven't heard about "debug competitions," but i've heard about hackathons

[jovial crater]

i thought more people knew about this

there was another person in a diff server who didnt know about code debug competetions too

[near ocean]

Arent these things called jobs

[jovial crater]

i see, well yeah hackathons are popular

[jovial crater]

lol yeah sure there are jobs for that but competetions too

[hearty island]

i'm with mar on this one

[near ocean]

I havent heard of debug competitions either tbh

[jovial crater]

i see

[hearty island]

hey guys dumb question, but does anyone have any resources to learn about SAP?

preferrably free

i'll do some googling

YES, I GOT ANOTHER REFERRAL FROM FISHBOWL

[worldly gyro]

YOO GUYS another update
I got the job!
Unfortunately the main language is gonna be Java, still infinitely better than nothing lol
If You have any questions regarding getting first internship or trainee position AMA

[fringe sphinx]

Java is a fine language. I spent many years in it. Good ecosystem, and very good balance.

[fringe sphinx]

My suggestion is: Start reading the java language specification: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/. You might get 20-30% on the first read, and that's OK. Each time you review, you'll learn a bit more.

[worldly gyro]

Yeee ive been learning java 1 year ago for 3 months, i stopped just before java garbage collector and lambdas topics, i think its gonna be easy to get back to it
Besides, its not instantly junior pos, its 3 month academy internship so HR basically told me that i dont need any knowledge they gonna teach me and then throw to to jiunior lol
but i will definetly get some till then

[fringe sphinx]

Nice, that's great.

[buoyant seal]

Also newer versions of Java become more and more nicer looking. Records/Structs were added ^_^.
Having competitors like Kotlin made looking like a good impact on Java

Desire to get hang of Java too

[fringe sphinx]

Strongly recommend reading the spec... not page by page, but skimming. I did that every few years for a long time, I'd pick up something new each time.

[hearty island]

good news, i got an interview at my old company. a guardian angel must be looking out for me. i've gotten a couple referrals too

[buoyant seal]

Kotlin looks like too much JetBrain and its IDE depended. Not as CLI/agnostic/open source ecosystemed as Java it looks like.
After reading reddit topics discussing all flaws of Kotlin and its comparisons with Java I after all chose Java to pursue instead of Kotlin

[fringe sphinx]

The JVM is quite magnificent.

[true harness]

except where it isn't 😦

[fleet reef]

If you ever run in to that let us know

[hearty island]

so basically the person who referred me is a resource management professional at Capgemini. do they count as a recruiter?

i googled it and it seems like resource management is like HR

i'm only asking bc they're having me fill out an employee referral form

[fringe sphinx]

What's the question then? Just put their title down

[hearty island]

"If you have been in contact with a Capgemini recruiter, please mention their name."

[white relic]

I would interpret "resource management professional" as likely titlese for recruiter

[hearty island]

gotcha. thanks trentj. i'd assume the same.

[white relic]

it can't hurt to put their name down in either case. (assuming you want to be referred by this person)

[hearty island]

i'm thinking they have a ton of swing at their company, and they're giving referrals. doesn't hurt to try.

[narrow kraken]

can i send my resume and i get feedback? if anyone is willing could you send a dm and ill send the resume

[gritty rivet]

You can send a redacted screenshot to the channel

[pine sleet]

feel free to anonymize it and send it here

[narrow kraken]

wydm redacted? like spoilers?

[pine sleet]

just black out personal information

[narrow kraken]

how is that

[hearty island]

not a fan of two columns, or the multiple colors

[gritty rivet]

Columns and sidebars are generally not recommended because auto scanning doesn't do well with it. The content of that sidebar is mostly fluff anyway. Your Objectives and Skills and Attributes sections tell me almost nothing.

The main section is pretty solid though

[regal axle]

I have ... a lot of thoughts. But I am not going to spend super super long giving you all of the details on every change I would make. But I will put some of the bigger things.
Oh and yea, not a fan of 2 columns.

[gritty rivet]

"Self-studying" isn't a project though, I would reframe or cut

[hearty island]

yay guys! interview scheduled for tomorrow. tuesday @ 11 AM EST

[regal axle]

Here are some of the bigger things. There are lots of little wording that could be better. But not end of world.
It is ok to make things sound bigger than they are. You don't have to make it seem small. You don't have to lie to make things appear bigger. Like the start up. Don't just say "oh my friends did a little project". No, "I co-founded a startup." The person reading can infer that it isn't some massive thing bassed on the small amount of detail on it. But point being, is that you don't have to make it seem like a "small little nothing"

Oh, and I personally don't care for "objective" sections. But some people like it. Regardless, I would put that at the top, and not under everything (the way I motioned in my drawing)

[narrow kraken]

I mainly just followed a template i found, but ill make those changes now

[hearty island]

i like jake's resume. highly effective. industry-standard.

[narrow kraken]

also is it really that bad to have colour? the black and white seems both boring and like a blur of info i thought?

[narrow kraken]

i just thought it would be something good to put, since it takes a considerable amount of time (probably same as coding a project)

[pine sleet]

you don't want to distract the person reading your resume with the colors and make them think harder about where to find certain stuff. they only have like, 30 seconds to read it and you want all 30 seconds of those to be focused on how awesome you are

if you use a standard template like jake's resume, which they've probably seen a thousand times, they automatically know exactly what to expect

[narrow kraken]

where is that?

[pine sleet]

https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[narrow kraken]

alright ill drop the column and change some of the small things

should i drop the objective then?

also does anyone know how to modify the word resume templates?

[true harness]

some color is honestly fine imo

[near ocean]

Mixed opinions on objective statement
People here say no
Recruiters in the UK told me yes

I have one, really short single sentence thats mostly about my visa status

[tawdry sable]

I need advice. I got rejected for a fuxking insight day is there any way i can still get it?

How can i get rejrcted for a inisght day?????? For only first years i got great experience from consulting firms i have 88 percent gpa and fuxking inisght day rejection

[white relic]

what is an insight day?

[tawdry sable]

Literally a day where you go to their offices

You get maybe a guarenteed internship interview for next year

How is it like this? i mean its a citadel insight day but still wtf

[hearty island]

insane competition

[tawdry sable]

Bro its a fuxking insight day

no internship no pay no nothing with my goated resume for a first year??????? like wtf

I legit have interviews from equity firms for full summer internships that have insane competition aswell

[white relic]

they likely don't have room for all the smart kids who want to come on a given day

[tawdry sable]

Brooooooooooooooo how did they pick them? i bet its corruption or connections

[white relic]

don't take it personally

[hearty island]

can you post your resume here? maybe we can give some feedback

[tawdry sable]

ok

For a first year its good idk how its not, legit made a crazzy good app and won a consulting compeition with 8k prize

Like for first years who apply in october for a insight day? really wtf

[hearty island]

lmao nepotism ftw. some guy emailed me and said "i spoke to your dad, apply here."

[tawdry sable]

IK its so unfair ffs i get it for internships and stuff but wtf insight week? i was soo looking forward to it from october

[hearty island]

nah before this i found all the roles myself. now i'm trying things that are a bit out of the box.

[white relic]

in the US, first year internships are significantly rarer than later ones

[tawdry sable]

This isnt a internship its a insight day

unpaid no nothing just a day u spend in the office for first years only in the UK

[hearty island]

i got a first year internship at textron. but it was in georgia and my mom didn't let me go.

[tawdry sable]

Where do you guys work?

[buoyant seal]

It is called Networking today 😊

[hearty island]

yessir

[tawdry sable]

"just apply in the link"

[hearty island]

it was during covid

and i couldn't drive properly. and it was after my bombed semester at Uni Buffalo.

[tawdry sable]

University of birmingham/boston???? oh lmao

So what can i do? is there a way i can still get in?

[near ocean]

Thats not what rejection means

[hearty island]

rejection means no

[near ocean]

I guess you could sneak into their offices but thats a crime so i cant exactly endorse this

[tawdry sable]

Can i ask if like someone cancels or something i can get in?

Or do i beg them in linkedin?

[true harness]

that's not a good look

[near ocean]

I dont think people cancel insight days

Its a single day and its meant for students who have nothing else going on
Why would anyone cancel

[tawdry sable]

its during easter?

their email doesnt even accept mail it only sends it

[near ocean]

Do you think the people grinding for citadel and jane street care for holidays?

[pine sleet]

the grind is real 🔥

[tawdry sable]

its a insight day out of 100 maybe a chance someone cancels hopefully

[near ocean]

If people cancel it'll probably be on the day of, not beforehand lol
Theres no point thinking about this anymore

[tawdry sable]

What do i do i dont have a spring week?

ok ur right do u work anywhere that has inisght days

[near ocean]

No

[tawdry sable]

really its prob a startup?

[near ocean]

No its a ftse350

[tawdry sable]

its prob does then?

[near ocean]

Insight days are for finance people, i dont think anyone else does this

[tawdry sable]

Palantir does, also what did u think of my resume? i wanna know what people who work would think of it i hear some people who review resumes and interview are normal engineers non recruiters

[near ocean]

I dont generally review resumes, looks good to me, no strong opinion one way or another

[tawdry sable]

is there anything u dont like? thank you btw for saying it looks good used jake's it was wayy better

[tawdry sable]

btw if ur a software engineer at easy jet thats cool af

[harsh river]

i think the courses section is next to useless

[tawdry sable]

AWS one got me an interview, maybe the IT one but has linux

[harsh river]

well not useless, but there could be other things there

[tawdry sable]

Like what? i dont have anything apart from talk more about my data and analtics award?

[harsh river]

rather than courses, it should maybe be part of education or certifications

[tawdry sable]

That is good ill call it certification

[near ocean]

I cant see anything really that stands out as bad
You should wait for others to comment

[tawdry sable]

@summer roost Hello, Im love bloomberg and have been using the bloomberg terminal at my university for a long time. I am currently a first year student and would love the opportunity of a insight day/week shadowing in bloomberg during the spring week. Even if thats not possible could you tell me what you think of my resume?

Thanks,

[true harness]

you were a junior developer for 1 month? was that an internship?
Mintkard: what data structures and algorithms? anything special or interesting?

[hearty island]

what does mintkard do

[near ocean]

web app things

[tawdry sable]

that was like a inisght week

Did u notice the oliver wyman data and analytics award? i wanna show it off more in my thing

[true harness]

how is that being a junior developer

[tawdry sable]

Well my account said junior developer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ2fWvXyFro
Mintkards above

[harsh river]

that's not the same imo, it probably shouldn't be part of the resume.

[near ocean]

You can put spring weeks on your CV, probably shouldnt advertise it as experience

[tawdry sable]

it wasnt spring week it was kinda networking

I did do alot of tech

[hearty island]

there’s this thing called forage that people put as experience and it pisses off recruiters a ton

[true harness]

you mention postgres and mongodb in skills, but they aren't mentioned anywhere else

[tawdry sable]

used them in Uni alooot for foundations of data science

[true harness]

show, don't tell

[tawdry sable]

should i include the youtube video link in the mintkard section or no?

do u feel like u would more or less hire me after watching the mintkard demo video??

[true harness]

that's not a typical project presentation. i didn't watch it

[near ocean]

Deploy the project and link to it

[tawdry sable]

Bro AWS is crazy

i used railway and they would send notifications plus rockstar recruiter said video is better u can show more in less time

[near ocean]

Video is amateur hour

[tawdry sable]

really? okay ill host on aws but fees

like im broke all my money is in nvidia stock and coinbase stock

[hearty island]

bro's risk tolerance is insane

[turbid bobcat]

I still regret the 1 dollar I put into coca cola, it's now like 60cent

[unborn pasture]

Ai coming for your jobs…

[tender sun]

Is there a better way to deploy backend projects for free ?

I never tried AWS

[buoyant seal]

Hetzner is cheapest.
For 6 euro u get 4 CPU 8 RAM 80 SSD if choosing arm64 arch.
You can pile a lot of home stuff on server like that.
Heck, even enough hardware to run Minecraft modded servers

[tender sun]

That's alot tbh , is there any better options for broke Devs

[buoyant seal]

Getting Virtual Manager + Qemu and raising stuff in Virtual machines.
Or in virtual box.
Or just running locally

Actually Vagrant is best to raise VMs. It does it easily as a code. In several simple commands

Fully free option

[buoyant seal]

If u will develop client side only (Frontend) stuff, u can deploy it for free into GitHub pages

[buoyant seal]

Also if u developed lightweight in size and fast to boot and small time to run stuff that u need to execute rarely periodically on schedule
It is almost free to use AWS lamdas

[smoky quest]

a rpi on your desk can be an alternative

[buoyant seal]

Optionally projects written in WASM frontend can be in other languages too and deployed once again for free into GitHub pages

[dull bramble]

Hello Everyone
I'm seeking work as a full stack designer and developer.
If you have any work and planning new, kindly let me know.
Here is my portfolio.

https://shinobi8894.onrender.com/

Thank you

[hearty island]

we don’t recruit here

[long yoke]

Can you help me code a program to move me left right using the wasd keys? I want it to go 1 second each direction (left, right) and bind it so when i press v it starts and when i press v again it stops, thank you!

[fringe sphinx]

Plz see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[pastel thunder]

dont see no hecking entry level job at decent company, wth is going on

and no hecking interview

[near ocean]

Post CV

[zealous path]

As mar said, post CV
Also what country?

[pastel thunder]

did it multiple times, here only
its india

[smoky quest]

• make it one page
• Don't just claim SOTA, show it with numbers

[pastel thunder]

how to adjust in one page? remove certificate?

I have already removed description of some internships

[smoky quest]

I would probably be a bit more aggressive in the removal of things. As is, it's quite dense.

[pastel thunder]

so dense, yet recruiter are unable to even give a chance

literally whole resume says "ML", but no interview

[smoky quest]

the market is tough right now

and looking for a job less than a year in your current job might also be weird

[near ocean]

I would cut the achievements under education and the certs to start, maybe not the autocad cert but how relevant is it for ML anyway

[smoky quest]

your overlaps in internships aren't blockers, but would probably warrant questions

[vapid jay]

How do you deal with a coworker who doesn't give critical feedback until you're both infrint of your boss?

[pastel thunder]

do achievement sound BS? can i compress them instead of removal

[vapid jay]

E.g. they assign work to you, you ask for feedback and they don't bring up potentially fundamental issues they have with what you're doing until it's too late

[near ocean]

Have you specifically asked for feedback from this person?

[vapid jay]

Yes, we were corresponding back and forth and I was saying "let me know if you have any issues or comments" etc etc

To be clear, they were the one who assigned me the task

[near ocean]

Do they approve of the work and then comment on it in front of your manager?

Or do they completely ignore you until its time to meet with your manager

[vapid jay]

The former

[fringe sphinx]

Me? I'd laugh at them and call them out on it on the spot.

Maybe jokingly: Why you throwing me under the bus, my friend?

[near ocean]

Wait, they approve of it and then turn around and say they have issues with it?

[deft herald]

Yeah i think i'd do the same

"Why didn't you mention that when i asked for your feedback earlier?"

[fringe sphinx]

I think the difference is... we're less insecure about our position. It's easy for us to call out BS. I can see why a junior would struggle here.

[deft herald]

right

[vapid jay]

I'm also a contractor to this place

[near ocean]

It can start with simple questions
Why did you approve before?
Why did you not leave feedback?

[fringe sphinx]

Me, I'd kill them with kindness. "My friend" is a power move when someone's being... not a friend.

Something like: "Joe, totally appreciate you throwing me under the bus <fake laugh here>, but yah, that's a great point. I'll take a look at that, let's chat offline so we don't waste <big boss>'s time with this."

[deft herald]

Yeah this for real

[pastel thunder]

this saves two lines, good?

[fringe sphinx]

That, uh, no.

[smoky quest]

In parallel, do mention that to your manager so they can dig into that. It could also be that for some reason, they do not feel comfortable giving you feedback

[lapis wind]

I don't know where to look when scanning this

[fringe sphinx]

That looks like a Nascar car. A little too over the top.

for reference.

[pastel thunder]

like cluttered you mean?

[vapid jay]

I'm new on the job

And when trying to circle the manager in in a different situation I've been told to address this person directly

[smoky quest]

I mean, yeah, do both.
Keep your manager in the loop AND ask that person about it

There is also a difference between the two answers from your manager:

• Have you asked them about it?
• Figure it out yourself

[vapid jay]

In my heart right now I feel like doing that but also with me being a contractor and new to the job, I'm feeling out what exactly is acceptable behavior for me specifically

[pastel thunder]

made two columns, will this hurt ability of scanning software to scan?

[hearty island]

"You will work a hybrid schedule (2-3 days in office) from June 17 – August 9, 2024
You will be assigned to a mentor who will guide you during your internship.
You will work full-time and be paid for eight 40-hour weeks
You will engage in company culture and team building exercises.
By the end of the program, you will have a remarkably clear idea of what working in corporate engineering/technology and examples of long-term career opportunities within the industry.
The salary is $22.00 per hour.
The position will be based in Pleasanton, California, Plano, Texas or Phoenix, AZ."

dude, how does anyone survive in cali on $22 an hour?

[true harness]

long commutes

[hearty island]

yea

[balmy spade]

clear idea of what working in corporate engineering/technology and examples of
The gammer is hurting my head here.

Seems like a decent internship offer though. Can't speak to the commute for any of those.

[fringe sphinx]

Certainly not in Pleasanton.

Oh, psv beat me to it. I have family who, thanks to mostly remote work, lives near Sacramento… but still has to drive for the occasional onsite

[lost cypress]

Random, but I have a question, I'm currently a junior in university right now in the USA, and the search for my first SWE internship has been tough.

It's march so open applications are coming to an end for summer 2024.

Assuming I cannot land an internship for this summer, what do I even do? I've been very stressed on what kind of steps I should take if I cannot secure an internship

I graduate in Spring of 2025

Does anybody have any thoughts on what to do if this is the case? In terms of still making a push to break into the field

[pine sleet]

if you don't get an SWE internship you just don't you gotta figure out something else to do
you can make the best of a bad situation by trying to apply to some easier entry jobs like IT that may still give you relavent experience to put on your resume

[true harness]

research at your university, winter internships, are both options. also may try widening your net to just IT internships

[fringe sphinx]

A few ideas. Take classes, and graduate earlier. Start an interesting project that interests you: makes you a better person. Maybe contribute to an industry relevant OSS project. Volunteer: especially for something tech adjacent. Go to Europe and find yourself.

[lost cypress]

How could graduating earlier be of benefit to my case? Wouldn't that make it harder to get some kind of experience before I graduate because of graduation date requirements for some internships

[fringe sphinx]

I'm glad you asked. Sometimes graduating early puts you off-cycle: everyone else is graduating in June, but some companies will appreciate someone who is hirable now.

Larger companies will have established hiring cycles aligned to June grads, but that doesn't mean they want to wait.

[lost cypress]

Hmmm I never thought about it like that, makes for a good idea I must say

[fringe sphinx]

Also, always be networking. Never have lunch alone, and all that. Networking is more important than anything else right now for you.

[lost cypress]

I'm going to be honest I don't think graduating early is an option for me currently as I made dumb mistakes my freshman year in terms of classes that were not required for me to take, causing me to have very minimal leg room and having filled up semesters for my senior year.

I will definitely consider the other options though!

[fringe sphinx]

I'm a big fan of finding yourself.

[lost cypress]

like a solo trip you say? I've actually been telling friends of mine I would love to do that

im curious though how do you think it could be of benefit to take time to find myself then further be successful career wise?

[fringe sphinx]

1. If not now, when are you going to?

[smoky quest]

travel expands the mind and kills narrow minds

[fringe sphinx]

2. Who gives a bleep whether it'll benefit your career? You'll be fine.

[lost cypress]

although i'm from the usa i have actually been to africa,europe,mexico a few times.

however they were small family trips not solo ones

[fringe sphinx]

I mean that genuinely: You'll get a job, and nobody will wonder what you did your senior summer/etc. The market is chaotic now anyway, so just be selfish and enjoy yourself for once. You deserve it.

[lost cypress]

they were really eye opening though but you make a good point I think a solo trip could be beneficial

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe, just maybe, plan it around a tech conference. That's a nice excuse.

Too bad pycon europe is April.

[smoky quest]

https://kdd2024.kdd.org/ 😉

[fringe sphinx]

Oh man, barcelona. That place. +1 from me.

[smoky quest]

Am sure we can find a few conferences around

[lost cypress]

this means a lot to me actually

I have been feeling a lot of pressure this past year in terms of like what if I dont have a job fresh out of my CS degree

and also worrying about not being able to help my parents out financially you know?

[fringe sphinx]

Oh I'm a dope.. I was looking at Pycon DE

Pycon Europe is July in Prague: https://dev.events/conferences/euro-python-2024-jp2-v-ov-kb

[lost cypress]

Agreed i've been there 2 years ago its amazing

[lost cypress]

dang this looks awesome but my fall semester will have begun already but who knows

[fringe sphinx]

And if you have anything interresting to show, the CFP is still open (but 2 more days): https://dev.events/conferences/euro-python-2024-jp2-v-ov-kb

[smoky quest]

following @fringe sphinx 's link, you have plethora of them: https://dev.events/EU

[lost cypress]

interesting, so these are essentially conferences/events for the python community to showcase projects one has made or something? or to listen to talks/workshops?

i might be misunderstanding it so my bad, i havent heard about this conference before

[fringe sphinx]

There's a mix of things, PyCon US is coming up too...

It's mostly to listen to prepared talks and sessions, and talk to like minded people (usually during breaks/etc)

I haven't gone to any PyCon yet, but might this year

But, I watch the videos... I'll watch most of them, I think I went through every pycon europe video, altho skipped a few after the intro

[lost cypress]

ohhh i see, so would you say it is also beneficial for networking or not too much?

[fringe sphinx]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8uoeex94UhFcwvAfWHybD7SfNgIUBRo-

[fringe sphinx]

I don't know first hand. I'll let someone else who might know answer.

[lost cypress]

oh that would be great thank you.

also so you recommended the PyCon EU first over PyCon US even though im in USA because it would be a good way/reason to get out the country and kind of find myself right?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, something like that.

[lost cypress]

so would you say a good set of priorities for this summer if I cannot get that SWE internship is

• make interesting projects
• perhaps an IT internship
• look into conferences
• maybe take some time to find myself

sorry for the excess of questions, I just really really want to make the most out of my time for my given situation and be as productive as possible

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, or find an interesting Volunteering opportunity

[lost cypress]

got it thank you!

[narrow kraken]

are skills and attributes like this worth having on a resume or is it fluff?

[pine sleet]

it doesn't mean anything
anyone can put that there

[zealous path]

At most it can help passing bot checks

[smoky quest]

show, don't tell

[smoky quest]

more likely to be non-existent

[zealous path]

True

[narrow kraken]

i dont really care fore the skills, i mainly want to put that i can speak 3 languages since the internship is in hk

i guess that doesnt rly matter tho does it

[hearty island]

yea, it's not worth the application

[narrow kraken]

any feedback would be appreciated

[hearty island]

i'm not a big fan of multiple colors. resumes tend to be in black and white

also i'm not sure if "self studying" is considered a project?

[regal axle]

The multi color is fine.

Although, you could do without the "green"

[hearty island]

you see green on here? i must be color blind

[narrow kraken]

i think im fine with the colour since it seems mixed opinion, and im not sure i got any response to what i should do about the self study, since i think it would be relevant to share ive studied extra maths

[hearty island]

how about a cool project that showcases your knowledge about the extra math?

[fringe sphinx]

What color is the University name to you?

[regal axle]

But yea, the self study is not needed. You can just add things into your skills more so than anything. The section doesn't really make sense.

[hearty island]

uhhh like a dark blue?

[pine sleet]

if i was reading this i don't think i'd know immediately what you were trying to express, the content feels a bit all over the place. perhaps you can try to rewrite/omit things so that your resume tries to convey something in particular?

what sort of jobs are you trying to apply to with this?

[regal axle]

it isn't green. But it has green. I think. Maybe

[pine sleet]

its a dark green

[narrow kraken]

its just dark green

[hearty island]

i'm color blind 😭

[fringe sphinx]

Is this like that dress that nobody knows what color it is?

[pine sleet]

you could confuse it with gray as well tbh

[fringe sphinx]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress

[pine sleet]

if i look at it hard enough it turns gray

[regal axle]

I mean, it is really just one person.
Idk why the word "dark" was escaping my mind

[regal axle]

I still think that you should move the startup into work

[narrow kraken]

literally only jane street with this. i just remember the rep said they look for creative people/ "uncut diamonds" or whatever so im trying to show i can learn bymyself and am driven by curiosity (which is true)

[regal axle]

(also, this is looking way better than this morning)

[pine sleet]

that's fair. what position is it at jane street?

[narrow kraken]

ohhh i didnt realise you meant move it into work, ithought u just said dont downplay, ill do that now

[regal axle]

I said both. The wording is better too.

[narrow kraken]

either quantitative trader (hence why im trying to emphasise my maths), or software dev role

its especially because i havent done much statistics and only plan on taking one course, but i dont want to be ruled out because of that, and want to show i can learn whatever i need to and ill put in the work to learn by myself

[hearty island]

now it makes sense

[narrow kraken]

yea i think id modify it for some random software dev role, but i really want to show bredth and show a focus on maths and creativity

like, i havent highlighted any engineering specific courses ive taken since they are all mechanical or electrical which i dont think is relevant

actually i might add a little thing in the education about some engineering courses since it might help with the engineering roles

[white relic]

ACHIEVMENTS
spell check ignoring all caps words strikes again

[hearty island]

oof

[narrow kraken]

oh my lord how did i not notice that, actually so embarrassing

[hearty island]

double checks his resume

[narrow kraken]

yea i think i cant find any others

[hearty island]

i'm an idiot

my resume should say Bachelor of Business Administration in Business Analytics, but it has said bachelor of business administration for the longest time

[vapid jay]

Man I never saw a resume but this looks like a law suit

Like I have a glimpse but in those they have their pictures etc

[narrow kraken]

bruh whaa, not u choso

[smoky quest]

overall it looks fine. The main issue is the projects are weak comparing to the competition if you want to go to janestreet

show, don't tell

[vapid jay]

Make it more creative kinda artistic

[narrow kraken]

i mean tbh j havent rly done much for projects

[smoky quest]

Sure. And for the positions you are competing with, your competition already has done more projects

[narrow kraken]

yea i know ahha

[keen phoenix]

is anyone here an a.i. engineer? if yes, i need to talk

[tender sun]

Have the same fear bro :/

[vapid jay]

If i want to be a python developer.. what are the SKILLS should i acquire and projects to be done to get a job has a FRESHER...
can anyone
H
E
L
P
me with this..

[mortal kite]

“You are required to inform your manager when you are applying for a new role internally”

What is a good template for a neurotypical way to say “This is the message informing you that I am applying for a new role internally”?

[zealous path]

Hi Name,

Just letting you know that I have been trying to broaden my skill set whilst staying within the company and am applying to an internal role.
Will make sure to keep you in the loop.

Thanks,
Name

Probably could use a touch up here and there but that’s the general gist I’d go with

[fringe sphinx]

Or, “Bob, FYI, I noticed the xyz position on our job portal and would like to apply to it. I just wanted to keep you in the loop! Thanks, Clari”

[white relic]

I'd lean more towards BillyBobby's version but I reckon it depends on your work culture and to some extent on your relationship to the manager

[zealous path]

Yeah, go with BillyBobby’s one.
Sounds a lot better

[regal axle]

SO to the managers who hate long emails. “Don’t great people in emails or sign off. Just get to the point” (this is generally not accepted but I love it when it is)

[zealous path]

That’s an interesting take.
Usually I only hate greetings when it’s in messages and I’ve gotta reply to your greeting before you ask me whatever question you have.
Don’t think it’s bad in emails tho.

[true harness]

adding a greeting and signature to an email takes like 4 seconds

[regal axle]

Let me clarify. I don’t mean ”hi bob”, I mean things like “how are you doing today // I hope you are having a good day”

[white relic]

in a matrix organization, which a lot of big companies have, "your" manager might really not care where you are assigned, and be happy you're taking initiative to find a better placement, and likely still be your manager afterward. Might be very different in a different organizational structure

[regal axle]

Although one of my managers did go as far as to drop the “hi” lol. He would just start his emails like
“Joshie,
Do this. Look into this.
“

I also find it really funny when people call me Joshie. One time a guy wrote a contract and put my name as Joshie. He forgot I had a real name (he knew my full name)

[near ocean]

Why email if youre not going to use email etiquette

[regal axle]

Better audit trail than slack. Or when needing to have a conversation with person(s) not in the team slack channels. Or when adding a response / CC to one of the automated emails from the CI

[hearty island]

my boss gave me shit for saying "dear xyz" in my emails. i say "hi xyz" now.

[fringe sphinx]

Why either? Just: "Bob, ..."

[hearty island]

true that

[regal axle]

Oh and the other big one, was setting up meetings. Because we used outlook.

[fringe sphinx]

Also, lack of a newline after the greeting does bother me: ```py
Bob,
message

[hearty island]

anyways, i dressed up in a suit for my smart casual meeting for the interview

it's for the company that laid me off

[true harness]

can't you just teams them directly? (or slack them?)

[hearty island]

i think they're actually pitting all the interns against each other for the last 2 spots in the summer program. fight to death /s

i highly doubt i'm the only ex-intern they reached out to

[regal axle]

I don't work there anymore. And it doesn't really matter. The system worked well.

[hearty island]

i can't even find the job posting they want me to interview for

[regal axle]

It might be an internal thing. Or internal first and then "open it up to the public"

[hearty island]

it is probably internal and on HR side only. i couldn't find it on the workday internal side with my desktop

so apparently my dad's friend has contacts in deloitte. and they told him deloitte is not taking kindly to people who are fresh in the industry 😦

anyone heard about SIG? susquehana investment group?

[near ocean]

In name only, a friend was approached by a recruiter for them

[hearty island]

might be worth an application from me

[true harness]

sig is a quant firm

[near ocean]

Looking companies up is never boring

https://careers.sig.com/job/7440/Python-Developer-Quantitative-Data

[hearty island]

guys, i'm looking at my manager's resume and there are tables in it.

what the fuck

nah i'm not giving them any advice tho

why listen to me ig

[placid haven]

Can we talk more priv?

[hearty island]

sure! go ahead and dm me

[mortal kite]

Is this a good way to word "I will always be willing to listen if you say my idea is stupid, but only if you can explain why."?

"I’m also open to feedback, willing to listen if there’s room for improvement in my ideas. I strongly believe that the joy of gaining knowledge and putting it to practice is its own reward, and that it's better to have known and learned than to have merely been recognized. This approach guides my contributions and openness to new solutions."

[deft herald]

TIL java is a low level language

[fringe sphinx]

What's this for?

[mortal kite]

"Explain how you are willing to ask for and receive advice from others"

Been doing a lot of brainstorming.

[fringe sphinx]

I'd suggest something a bit more open ended... "if there's" and "only if" are somewhat limiting.

[near ocean]

Why do you need to explain this?

[fringe sphinx]

Bill Nye said it well: "Everyone you meet knows something you don't".

[mortal kite]

Trying to figure out the most-likely interview questions and how I'd respond to them.

I am also trying to established that I am well-read but not in a show-offy way. Which is why I paraphrased confucius in my longer version.

[fringe sphinx]

The humble way to approach these questions is to embrace that idea: "I love feedback and other perspectives, because it challenges me and helps me think of different ideas... etc"

Rather than transactionally: "I like ideas that improve my ideas"

[mortal kite]

"I am always seeking to be a better person tomorrow than I was today. Therefore, I always welcome new ideas, feedback, and constructive criticism."

[fringe sphinx]

That's great, shows humility.

[near ocean]

That sounds weird spoken out loud, practiced

[fringe sphinx]

You could couple that with empathy, something about valuing the person you're talking to.

[mortal kite]

I've been trying to work in the fact that I am the kind of person who learns for the sake of learning.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I'm assuming this is just a conceptual discussion, rather than literal word to word

[fringe sphinx]

This idea works better with a story or example(s) rather than as an assertion.

[near ocean]

If you dont provide a story they will follow up, better to lead with it

[mortal kite]

I'm also trying to figure out a diplomatic way of saying "I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I prefer it when everyone else follows that guideline, as I value clear and open communication, especially when working with a team."

Normally I'd use GPT as a sounding board, but that strikes me as being somewhat unethical.

[fringe sphinx]

tbh, I think using GPT as a sounding board is a great idea to hear different phrasings and ideas. That, to me, is a good use of technology.

[near ocean]

Why not? If it can help you come up with alternative phrasing go for it

Pretty much the only use gpt has for me

[mortal kite]

"Any use of generative AI in the application will result in an immediate rejection"

[hearty island]

@fringe sphinx my interview went really well! they were blown away by my dashboards and responses. they said i’m an excellent candidate for both roles

[mortal kite]

I imagine it's there to screen out the people who just use chatgpt as a replacement for their brains.

[hearty island]

also the hiring manager did a presentation for me he was like yea i don’t normally do this but based on what you’ve shown me i think i should

[near ocean]

Are you answering questions in text before the interview? I thought you were talking about face to face questions

[mortal kite]

I mean I also use it to summarize articles for my zettelkasten...

[hearty island]

are you talking to me?

[near ocean]

Nah, clari

[mortal kite]

I consider the two to be interchangeable, especially since non-verbal communication is my biggest weakness.

[hearty island]

ah, my bad.

[fringe sphinx]

For your last one, what i'd personally say is: "I like to speak directly, and really enjoy working with teams where every feels comfortable speaking their mind, disagree without being disagreeable, and agree on a plan."

[fringe sphinx]

I am so happy for you ❤️

[near ocean]

Theyre not interchangeable, you cannot answer in person questions sounding like youre reading formal letters
You won't pass the vibe check

[mortal kite]

I mean that's how I sound anyway.

Text is far better, no body language to trip me up.

[hearty island]

i hope i get good news man

[near ocean]

Its definitely a skill people practice, you shouldnt ignore it

[fringe sphinx]

tbh, all of your phrasings were fine. I'm just suggesting minor improvements, but be honest to yourself. Use language that fits you.

[mortal kite]

Too bad humans don't have a consistent API.

[fringe sphinx]

I do think it's important to show empathy tho, if you have the opportunity: it's not just about your journey, but that everyone else has their journey too.

[mortal kite]

I'm on the spectrum, and one of my symptoms is that I cannot read body language beyond "this is a smile, this is a frown. A smile means happy except for when it doesn't."

[mortal kite]

Of course, I'm usually more than happy to mention how one of life's greatest pleasures, for me at least, is helping other people whenever and wherever I can.

Of course, mentioning specific examples is the hard part because then I freeze up. "Which one do I use?"

[fringe sphinx]

One interview tip is to have 1 or 2 basic examples as your homebase: the examples you use to illustrate whatever question comes up.

[mortal kite]

Time to really flesh out that section of my obsidian then.

[fringe sphinx]

Not 1-2 for each question, but 1-2 overall. Some good example you can use for some of the various behavioral questions.

[mortal kite]

Which reminds me: the master copy of my full resume is in markdown in obsidian. What format do people generally prefer for a resume? docx? pdf?

[fringe sphinx]

PDF

[hearty island]

definitely a pdf

[mortal kite]

What, I can't put it on GitHub Pages using a sphinx theme? </sarcasm>

I did consider making a JSON version, but I figured that would be too cheeky.

[hearty island]

most hr people aren’t technical

[mortal kite]

I've noticed.

[hearty island]

oh you put /s i didn’t even notice 😭 sorry that flew over my head

[mortal kite]

Those who work with markdown can usually tell when looking at my resumes that I use markdown.

The first round of editing I do in LibreOffice is changing the formatting.

On a similar vein, is it true that the gold standard is a single page resume?

[hearty island]

depends on your years of experience. i’m just entering the job market, so mine’s a single page

[dull belfry]

hey guys when should i actually start applying for jobs i am doing my degree2nd year i have few cs50 certification but i dont have any good projects till now.. am making stuff now should i wait 2 years for my degree to end or start from now? (i am doing a online degree btw)

[mortal kite]

I put my college education plus my past three roles on, and then got creative with formatting to add my additional skills and activities while sticking to one page.

[mortal kite]

It is never too early to start working on projects, especially in open source.

[near ocean]

Layout of the CV depends on which country you are applying in

[dull belfry]

i have a lot of free time i spend mostly on personal projects was thinking i could try a job or maybe freelance

[dull belfry]

web dev with django

[mortal kite]

united states, but I am open to moving to europe

[hearty island]

some countries ask for pictures of you actually on your resume

[near ocean]

Then yea i think one page is the standard, no images, no personal stuff like address, age, sex, disabilities, etc

[mortal kite]

Okay I'll take my address and phone number off. Keeping the github username on though.

[hearty island]

no no keep the phone number on, i keep mine on

[near ocean]

Github and personal site are fine

Email and phone too, i wish they didnt call tho

[mortal kite]

I mean, phone number will send them to voicemail if I don't recognize the number, because of all the people who have been trying to reach me about my extended warrantee.

[hearty island]

same dude. they call at the worst times

[near ocean]

And when they do email its always generic bullshit

[hearty island]

"hirevue link" 😭

[mortal kite]

I am hoping for a position in Massachusetts accessible through the MBTA, because I am looking at moving to an area where I could feasibly get rid of my car.

[near ocean]

Not even that

This is about as good as spam imho

[hearty island]

wow, so personalized. you must've felt special after that. like they actually read your profile.

[mortal kite]

I usually put a unicode character in my name on LinkedIn to separate out the bots from the people.

[near ocean]

Straight to trash

[mortal kite]

Of course, the worst part of this process is actually having to use LinkedIn.

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/jail-right-to-jail-right-away-parks-and-recreation-parks-and-rec-gif-16177531 idk if you get the reference

[near ocean]

Actually i think outlook did that automatically

[hearty island]

they guessed your work email?

[near ocean]

I mean move it to spam from my inbox

[hearty island]

ah, ok

[mortal kite]

I used to have my twitter username on my resume, but I deleted my account years ago. Best mental health decision in years.

[hearty island]

i fr said during my interview "it's easy to talk the talk and say i created appealing visual dashboards, but let me walk the walk and show you what i've actually been able to make."

[near ocean]

Lmao based

[tender zenith]

Who is the top on a gameplay server ?

[lost cypress]

mine got accidentally deleted and it was still the best mental health move for me

not even bothering to make another it is just so toxic especially compared to instagram and other medias which also have their own flaws lol

[near ocean]

I don't think Twitter accounts belong on resumes anyway

[lost cypress]

agreed

[mortal kite]

it depends (or rather used to depend) on the industry. at the time I was looking for a role in weather communication.

[lost cypress]

ah that makes sense then

[hearty island]

i lowk feel bad hiding the fact that i'm interviewing for the same company i got laid off from my recently laid off coworkers. but fuck it i'm not saying shit.

as if they'd tell me

[true harness]

if they didn't know you were an internal candidate already, you should tell them. you're essentially already onboarded, understand the company culture, etc etc

[hearty island]

who, my laid-off coworkers?

[true harness]

oh. from your recently laid off coworkers. I missed that

¯_(ツ)_/¯ if they care they'll stalk your LinkedIn

[keen phoenix]

any ai engineer here?

[kindred oyster]

there are a few , sure

[hearty island]

what's the q

[kindred oyster]

that was the question

[hearty island]

oh. i thought there was more they wanted to ask.

[keen phoenix]

just need to discuss about what do i have to do to become one of them... i am 13 and i am pretty sure that i want to be an a.i. engineer

[near ocean]

Get a degree or two

[kindred oyster]

get good grades in school

and aim for a CS / similar degree from a reputed university

[near ocean]

Its kind of early to be planning for a career, no?

[fringe sphinx]

In high school: take math seriously. Find a way to love the subject, even if the classes are boring: math is more than math class.

[kindred oyster]

also , make maths your friend , you will need it everywhere
yeah

[fringe sphinx]

And learn to program. Just the basics, you don’t have to be great, but if you learn a little at a time over 4 years of high school, you’ll be winning.

[kindred oyster]

real
all i wanted to do at 13 was get home asap and go play with friends 😂

[keen phoenix]

just want to make sure i dont become a failure

[near ocean]

A career is not the only way someone becomes successful

[fringe sphinx]

That won’t happen, just keep learning and don’t listen to the gatekeepers or YouTubers who make you feel like you’re ‘behind’

[keen phoenix]

is being a master at python enough? (i am not)

[mortal kite]

no one is

[kindred oyster]

no , the field of AI will require a good understanding of math (at least some math surrounding stats, linear algebra , calc)

[keen phoenix]

i meant in the programming field

[fringe sphinx]

Don’t think like that. Think: you need a college degree. Theres lots of topics you’ll learn between now and then. As long as you keep learning, you’ll be fine: most of us aren’t geniuses but we still make it.

[mortal kite]

There's really no such thing as "mastering" python.

[kindred oyster]

as you progress, you will see things that you might need , learn them

dont think that you have to have a perfect roadmap for when you are 22 from now

[fringe sphinx]

You’ll probably learn 3-5 languages by the time you graduate from college, don’t listen to people who tell you what you ‘must’ learn: there’s no roadmap or single path, just keep learning.

[mortal kite]

As long as you strive to be better at it at the end of the day than you were yesterday, then you'll be fine.

And that applies to everything. Kaizen is a very good approach to life in general.

[fringe sphinx]

This isn’t just generic advice; good engineers get good by solving problems: it’s the solving problems that teaches us… the language or tool doesn’t matter so much.

[mortal kite]

But no matter what you want to do, if you spend just fifteen minutes a day learning it, that adds up. A whole year of daily learning produces amazing results.

[kindred oyster]

source - atomic habits

[keen phoenix]

thank you so much to you all for assisting me. I will make sure to keep learning, become good at maths and science and be updated in the ai development field.

[mortal kite]

Actually I got that from my advisor in 2014.

[keen phoenix]

also, what is that "google career certificate stuff" can it help me in future?

[kindred oyster]

dont think about those for now

if you get them for free through some giveaway or something , of course utilize them

but i wouldnt recommand going out of your way and spending money to get one

[mortal kite]

Try a lot of things, and get good at what you enjoy, that way if you do it for work it won't feel like work.

Unfortunately there are no jobs for "spending all day reading books and watching clouds" so there are limits to that advice.

[keen phoenix]

i think i enjoy coding
i started learning my 1st language python 4 days ago and i think im doing good

i made a calculator and a true false test

[keen phoenix]

why would anyone "giveaway" certificates? i think there are some courses of it which are free to join and can help getting jobs

[kindred oyster]

i had gotten one google certification course for free on coursera as part of their anniversary

[fringe sphinx]

!rule 9 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[fringe sphinx]

We don't allow that here.

[balmy apex]

oh

sad, yk anywhere where I can get that@fringe sphinx

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, fiverr? upwork?

[balmy apex]

I mean discord servers

[hearty island]

FUCK

[void oracle]

I know both of these options suck

but if all I care about is the $ I can save at the end of the month, what would be the best choice between Toronto, Montreal and Paris? Assuming I can find a job, there's no need for a visa

[deft herald]

max out the function (job offer amount - cost of living in area)

[void oracle]

What about career progression ?

[fringe sphinx]

Take the better job. 🤷🏻

[deft herald]

But you said "all i care about is the $ i can save"

[void oracle]

yeah but then again I thought

[deft herald]

You're learning that choosing a job is a complex decision

[void oracle]

Ive heard that if I want to eventually work in the US, Canada would be better

because I could eventually have the canadian citizenship

[hearty island]

I GOT THE JOB

[fringe sphinx]

Congrats 🎊, but why the f earlier?

(Mixed messages!)

[hearty island]

i was about to say i got the recruiter called me and i missed it but then i forgot to say something else

[fringe sphinx]

lol, sounds like you crushed it.

[true harness]

missing a call is fine, unless you said it'd be ok to call at that time, i guess

[hearty island]

yea she called me while i was in class

[hearty island]

it’s funny, they said they had 4 other interviews for the 2 roles and said i’d hear back like the next week

i guess the hiring manager was like nah fam this guy is good

[worldly gyro]

Yooo congratz, i guess we are having a lucky week haha, i got internship too
And i see you are from my country, maybe its not as difficult to get programming position here as they say

[hearty island]

US?

[hearty island]

haha i just got laid off too, so the timing is shocking. only 3 days between my lay off and the new internship offer.

[deft herald]

Wait did you get laid off as an intern?

[hearty island]

yea, due to budget cuts

[worldly gyro]

Not really, I thought You are from Poland because Your nickname damian said so, its pretty common name in Poland haha
Anyways we are lucky

[hearty island]

yes we are indeed

[deft herald]

Damn that's brutal. What kind of company would cut employees with a 4 month contract lol

[hearty island]

i have no idea, they laid off the entire division. my 2 bosses and all my coworkers are looking for a job.

[deft herald]

Ok I guess that makes more sense

[hearty island]

i'm keeping my mouth shut on linkedin tho, i don't wanna announce anything. if i don't get a full time offer by may, i'll do the internship

[fringe sphinx]

Smart. Very smart.

[hearty island]

it's not even that, i genuinely feel bad for them. they're friends of mine, some of them at least

[fringe sphinx]

And very empathetic. Good on you.

[deft herald]

Yeah it really sucks when entire teams get cut

[worldly gyro]

Tbh im a little worried, i have a nice remote it support job right now and im worried that after this 3 month paid Java academy they just gonna fire me for no reason or something, but HR assured me that recruitment is definetly focused on long term relationship so i hope im gonna be fine lol

[hearty island]

it does, but unfortunately i totally see the reason why we got cut. we had no direction and the products we were generating weren't useful. i didn't wanna speak up and tell the boss bc i had a feeling she'd cut me down

(it wasn't software, it was courses for execs at the company to use)

[tepid gyro]

Dude, it hurts that some people use chatgpt in my class to code, and its' slowly killing my love for this !

all the time i put in to practice before college, all feels like its going to waste.

[fast fossil]

how's it going to waste?

[tepid gyro]

waste. i don't know if im communicating it properly, but seeing that some are heavily using chatgpt for the sake of passing makes me feel like the time and effort i have put in is no longer going to pay off if it means, that at some point my aspiration to become a programmer and nothing more may in fact become obsolete. I hope i explained myself decently. sorry for the rant. i hope I chose the right channel.

my anxiety is off the roof now that i got this off my chest.

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't worry about it.
They are missing on tons of learning and that will limit them in the future.

But all in all, I would suggest to worry about yourself and not care what others are doing. Do what's best for yourself

[tepid gyro]

i appreciate it.

like i know it won't fully replace us. i suppose seeing that others don't have a love for it as much most do - feels bad.

[fast fossil]

ehh, it might fully replace us tbf, we can't really know for sure... probably won't happen that soon though (though we can't really be sure about that either 😁 )

[buoyant seal]

Less than half of people survived to graduation and became real software developers after that in average in my university.

From my point of view... Well... They abandon their programming studies. Okay, then they will not be having such carrier after that.

😅 I similarly cheated a lot of math Disciplines by just using previous years students answers. What can I say, except I closed for myself knowing math properly on my own and selected a different career path.
Every student can cheat in different ways 😜 to not learn different stuff.
They can quickly learn, pass grade and forget.

Studies are only your own responsibility if u will learn anything from them. I grew being responsible in studies only after graduation 😅

[tepid gyro]

^^ a bit of a mix, although I see your stance

[buoyant seal]

Student is ideally assumed being an adult from some point and realizing on its own what he wishes to learn.
He needs to know value of what he learns preferably in order to be diligent in learning it.

They made their choice. Make yours 🙂

[buoyant seal]

I slightly regret not more actively learning software development in self studies during university. You could help yourself a lot by knowing whom u wish to be and seeking extra education on top of regular university program

[buoyant seal]

Plenty of stuff is not covered by university program, yet needed for real career

[vapid jay]

How can I get job without a degree

What can I do any online certifications help?

[simple fulcrum]

im tweaking about devin ai n start comp sci in the fall - m i cooked?

[vapid jay]

Don't worry you will start with introduction

[near ocean]

A little bit less zoomer slang so we can understand what you mean?

[white relic]

It depends on the job, but in general, if you are young (high school/college age) the path of least resistance is to get a degree.
Are you unable to go to college? Doing a mid life career shift?

[vapid jay]

Good colleges have really high tution fee I can take education loan but I don't think i would be worth it instead planning to gain work experience

[white relic]

Are you in the US?

[white relic]

In general, a CS or engineering degree is still very much worth it even if you have to work at the same time and borrow some money. You don't have to go to Carnegie Mellon or Berkeley, any accredited school is good. There are many universites with state subsidized tuition in the States if that is where you are

[vapid jay]

I live in india

Like yeah I can go to uni but I wanna know is there any alternatives that would help me to get a job?

Going to uni is my last option I have one more year time

[white relic]

Everybody wants a cheat code to making money with no effort

[distant urchin]

i am also having these cs50s 3 of them but never tried to apply with... i think degree maybe needed

[vapid jay]

No not money to get a job

[white relic]

if it existed, it would have been exploited to heck already

There are lots of jobs that do not require degrees

[distant urchin]

but cant few good projects cover u on a degree ?

[white relic]

Around here, waiting tables or retail sales are very popular choices

[vapid jay]

Say trentj

Or any online certifications to increase chance of getting job?

[white relic]

It depends on the job

[distant urchin]

not certification but projects or open source contribution may i think

[vapid jay]

What should I do after learning python?

How long does it take to learn python?

[distant urchin]

learn more

[vapid jay]

Yeah like what to learn

[distant urchin]

like try making projects

[vapid jay]

What math is used in ai ml?

[distant urchin]

idk

[distant urchin]

??

[vapid jay]

What is github

[distant urchin]

website to post code

[white relic]

Even if you get your first job without a degree, your opportunities will be more limited and your compensation less than if you had gotten a degree.

[white relic]

AI is one of the most academically weighty fields in software. Going into AI without a degree is most likely not going to happen.

Again (both of you): it depends on the job.

[distant urchin]

oh.. i have this temptation of start applying for jobs ik i wont get selected as theres lots of competition.. and i dont have a degree my best option is to wait 2more years to get one ig

i have these cs50 certifcates on web dev py and sql do they stand a chance?

[vapid jay]

What grade are you now? 10th?

[distant urchin]

college 2nd year

[vapid jay]

What's your major?

[distant urchin]

cs

[white relic]

Great time to be finding internships

[distant urchin]

currently in first year second year soon.....

[distant urchin]

idk much about it is it provided by opportunity from college or should i manually find one?

[white relic]

This depends on the college and to some extent on the country

In the US at least some colleges do have internship placement programs but I had to find my own opportunities

[distant urchin]

my college is not a big one i dont think they have those... maybe idk

[distant urchin]

so there are remote internships aswell?

[white relic]

You almost certainly have a career services department or something like that which you can ask for information about internships

[distant urchin]

yh ill findout..

[white relic]

They exist, but I wouldn't recommend it unless it's the only option

interns need more guidance and one on one interaction than juniors and juniors need more than senior employees. Remote work isn't as conducive to learning in that way

[distant urchin]

ok i see

[vapid jay]

Hello

[keen fractal]

Idk of this is where to ask but how does chemistry apply to Computer science cause I'm taking chem this semester.

[white relic]

High school or college?

[keen fractal]

College

[white relic]

A university education is meant to give you a basis for learning in any direction your career takes you. To show you what exists. General education requirements (usually including physical sciences and humanities) are part of that basis.

You might find yourself doing data analysis for a research lab or automation in a food packaging facility or any number of other jobs in which basic chemistry knowledge could help you be a more effective developer and avoid looking like a fool in front of your coworkers.

Or maybe not. It could be that your eventual career choices lead into natural language processing or pure math or theoretical physics. You never know. That's the idea behind studying a variety of topics beyond only one

Personally I disliked chemistry but now I work for an electronics manufacturer and I encounter it all the time

(also, I have a swimming pool, but that doesn't have anything in particular to do with computer science)

[last moat]

guys, i found django difficult to learn. i made CRUD based website in raw php and found it is easy. should i master PHP laravel? i heard php is dying. is it true? is it worth spending time on PHP in 2024

[buoyant seal]

PHP is not really worth it in 2024. you can only do backend with it 😅 and its support as backend/cloud language is not that great too... companies aren't enthusiastic to give it support.

[buoyant seal]

Django comes in many flavours.

• Boilerplating Django Rest Framework for super rapid crude development
• Django Ninja used together with Mypy, as an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
• Or u can do stuff with FastApi which is similar to Django Ninja, except not Django
• or Flask for more minimal approach.

[austere swan]

why's error??

[white relic]

this channel is for career discussion. #❓｜how-to-get-help

[austere swan]

wt*

[fringe sphinx]

Oh man, swimming pools. The worst are the swimming pool stores that try to convince you that it's too complicated for mere mortals to balance their chemicals.

But yes, career advice? Build swimming pools.

[last moat]

is nodejs/express worth in 2024? is it better than django

[fringe sphinx]

Lots of people use both. Both are good to know.

[last moat]

it is python server. obviously people will suggest django

i want nuetral opinion

[last moat]

why not php laravel

[fringe sphinx]

I think there's more job opportunities in both JS and Python.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023 for support.

[buoyant seal]

Yes, definitely worth it. Together with Typescript, nodejs is often used for full stack development.
Assuming u will use Typescript and write unit tests
https://www.amazon.com/Test-Driven-Development-Kent-Beck/dp/0321146530
https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Testing-Principles-Practices-Patterns/dp/1617296279
U will receive some quality enjoyable stuff to work with.

Shrugs. it is a chocie similar to Python on Mypy, but of course different

JS/TS is deadly multipurpose, u can write infrastructure code in it, desktop and mobile apps
backend and frontend
The most used frontend language at least :/ and de facto standard.

[digital fjord]

PHP is reasonably popular where I am, but if you disliked Django, you likely won't like PHP frameworks either.
Raw-ish PHP is pretty much only used for WordPress Plugins/Blogs, which are afaik sometimes lucrative, but not too fun to make.

[buoyant seal]

is it better than django
I haven't dived deep enough into nodejs/express ecosystem enough to achieve level of judging in it.
knowing already python at a good level, i am hesitant to learn yet another interpreted dynamic typed language. Python already filled niche for me of scripting language.
So i move to an opposite direction of learning static typed languages (Golang, Java) + infrastructure stuff (AWS, Terraform, Kubernetes, Docker and etc) instead of learning another scripting lang.
I do plan to learn TS... one day, eventually... in some future... years, when my learning queue will catch up to being free from other stuff. may be.

[digital fjord]

Anecdotally, a couple friends were making a backend in TS and they seemed to suffer a fair bit more than me in Django, but they were also using fairly cutting edge TS stuff, which Django isn't.

[buoyant seal]

u can suffer in both if

• you are just not having sufficient unit testing
  • lets assume 20% or less, that will be dreadful for sure
• not using error/monitoring observability soft (like sentry)
• deploying manually without IaC
• screwed up your code architecture with entangled message queue eventing stuff going around and not having it unit tested too.
• overusing Any, *args, **kwargs and other no typing stuff (TS is gradual typing too and do same stuff pretty much)

[digital fjord]

Neither of us were unit testing anything, and we were both deploying manually. It wasn't a particularly large project.

[near ocean]

Based uni project tier deployment pipeline
Drag and drop to sharepoint folder

[buoyant seal]

zip archive over ||s||ftp 😛 or just writing in prod then over same ||s||ftp connection

[near ocean]

At uni the process was drag and drop into filezilla to move stuff into their servers
Universities really do the absolute least with preparing you for the job

Honestly, waiting till theres more pickup on apprenticeships or trade like schooling for software devs

[digital fjord]

Isn't that basically what a Bootcamp is?

[near ocean]

In the uk theyre government schemes, they take years but you graduate with a degree and experience

Pretty cool imho, theyre very competitive though

You just show up to work, like a tradie, at 18ish, with a salary too

[buoyant seal]

we too drag and dropped into filezilla ^_^.
I discovered I can open notepad right in filezilla though and just was writing from it

[fringe sphinx]

I love this idea. I'm curious how it performs vs a coop-type program (alternating work/education vs simultaneous)

[white relic]

That (apprenticeship for software development) makes a lot of sense

[digital fjord]

Agreed, there is definitely room for improvement over both bootcamos and degrees

[near ocean]

I imagine there are complications when software involves risk, human life, drugs, but there could be additional certifications to supplement

Kind of related to that old topic of making software engs a professional certification and protected title like other engineers

[white relic]

well, it's not like the university system prepares people for that kind of thing either

[near ocean]

No but at least you get that paper and IEEE membership

(for EEE and CS anyway)

[white relic]

I've felt for a long time like there should be legal repercussions for people who build information systems and don't secure them properly

it's apparently easy to be incompetent and say sorry when things go wrong (but this is a whole rant)

[near ocean]

I dont think its full time, i have a colleague who went through one of these programs but i dont remember details
They said they work 4 days and study 1, they still have to go to the office though

[true harness]

||skill issue||. nothing stopped you from researching how filezilla worked, or wanting to automate it somehow :P

[near ocean]

I could but why is the uni using it
Or tomcat or subversion or py3.4 back then lol

[true harness]

our programming labs say to use filezilla also. it's a relatively easy tool to use ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[near ocean]

It was convenient and not really necessary so no point updating but yea
Was an excuse to stay in bed instead of walking to the labs

[true harness]

i see this sentiment a lot tbh. a lot of fellow students complain about "not being job ready" and so on, but they could have just done it themselves 🙄. that's what all the gened classes for learning how to research were for!

[hearty island]

uh. why is my friend asking me for my resume as an example? lmao

[true harness]

maybe they want to see an example resume, so they picked you, as their friend

[hearty island]

he just said he's never written a resume before. he's a senior

[near ocean]

You cant really prepare for work without being immersed in work

You can fiddle with breadboards all you like but thats not how electricians do their job

[true harness]

i can't comment on that since i've never had a full time swe job 😩

[hearty island]

i've only had internships 😦

[near ocean]

You work now, dont you?

[true harness]

an internship

[visual star]

Thought Devin ai by cognition.
Should I change my path of becoming a good frontend developer

[near ocean]

Close enough

Im not saying work is more advanced btw, just different

[hearty island]

i feel like you're trusted with more things, compared to an internship. not speaking from experience tho.

[near ocean]

I couldnt say tbh, never done an internship

Psv can let us know in about a year i guess lol

[true harness]

yeah, a lot of things learned in school are not immediately applicable. there are also things that aren't really taught in courses that junior devs should probably know, e.g., VCS. my gripe is with people complaining that it's the school's fault they didn't know these things

[hearty island]

a lot of this field is about doing things yourself. personal projects and whatnot

it's not like accounting or something like that, where you'd be hard pressed to find personal projects on it

[upbeat aspen]

Hi

[hearty island]

accounting degrees literally learn everything they need to in school, and reinforce it outside. at least that's how it's been for the accounting kids from my school.

[upbeat aspen]

Same situation in my school

[near ocean]

I dont think your opinion matters here lol no offense
The average student has no idea about these things and probably treats uni work as the gospel, they want to pass their classes and find a living, they think the uni would prepare them, they're paying so much for it after all

If your first instinct is to go out and learn more things thats great but it just means youre not like the average student

You see it with people asking for help here too, their first instinct isnt to do research (or be curious)

[upbeat aspen]

That's the main reason most of the cs major students here are unemployed

Or unjobable in one word

[hearty island]

pub, you're pretty awesome man.

[true harness]

i think "unemployable" is the word 😩

[upbeat aspen]

Ah thanks

[upbeat aspen]

Yap 😔

[hearty island]

if i didn't show my personal projects during my interview yesterday, i highly doubt they'd give me the internship

it's not like they asked either. i kinda just went ahead and took control and showed them

[upbeat aspen]

I started learning cs from an early age, but idk my seniors are bad mouthing me 🥲

[near ocean]

Most of my class definitely was not interested in learning outside of the classroom, but that doesnt mean a £9250 (then prices) a year course should just let them go unprepared

[upbeat aspen]

If you don't mind can you tell me what's your projects

[hearty island]

oh well it was a power bi role, so i had built a bunch of tableau dashboards and like two dynamic excel dashboards

to showcase my abilities

i don't have power bi on my mac, power bi doesn't work on it. fuck off microsoft.

i can boot into windows too tho.

[upbeat aspen]

Oh , but what's power bi role ? (Sorry I am a noobi)

[white relic]

it's almost always better to have PowerPoint slides than live demonstrations

[hearty island]

power bi is like business intelligence low-code solutions. so you can create dashboards and stuff from it.

[hearty island]

i agree with you. i'll definitely do that next time i interview. thanks for feedback.

[white relic]

it's a hard earned lesson

[near ocean]

Powerpoint doesnt care
It'll crash on you regardless

[white relic]

I used to pdf all my slide decks just in case

[near ocean]

Software can smell fear especially around presentations

[upbeat aspen]

Oh

[hearty island]

i like power bi a lot

[white relic]

bjarne stroustrup gave a presentation on why linked lists are bad.
it was a great talk, but his slides didn't work, which spawned one of my favorite lines ever delivered in a live presentation
"Imagine this to be a graph"

[hearty island]

i got a $3 raise on my internship. up to $25 an hour now

[true harness]

haha i remember that talk. emphasizes that you shouldn't need to be reading off your slides!

[gritty rivet]

Same, had original and PDF on USB, in email and on my own laptop. More than once I was glad I did 😉

[upbeat aspen]

Congrats

[hearty island]

thank you!!

[upbeat aspen]

I use pendrive, my own laptop is near to his dead

[rare cliff]

My internship is about $3 an hour 🗿

[hearty island]

diff country?

[rare cliff]

Greece, under an internship program funded by the state

It's about 200/mo full time for 3 months but the biggest upside of doing an internship is getting hired right afterwards

[hearty island]

yea, makes sense. i'm in the US.

[rare cliff]

still 3/hour is breadcrumbs

[hearty island]

at least your full time offer is guaranteed

[rare cliff]

Yea I actually had the issue of picking between who to work for instead of scrounging for replies, 7 CVs sent 3 interviews

[hearty island]

lol i sent out like 2k maybe 3k resumes since last july. it's a tough market.

[rare cliff]

what

[hearty island]

ya, i got like 20 something interviews?

[rare cliff]

that's vile 💀

[white relic]

sounds about right

[hearty island]

a 1% success rate

[rare cliff]

i mean these internships are basically free for the companies since they're not paying a dime idk if that has to do anything for our case, pretty big names though on my end (not faang)

[hearty island]

i'm not FAANG, but i'm in the upper part of the fortune 500.

[rare cliff]

may I ask what sector you're in? I'm in ML/Data Science

[hearty island]

i don't do ML, i don't quite have the maths for it, business intelligence

[rare cliff]

Yea my sort of cheat code for getting interviews was going for a thesis that's way above regular undergrad punching weight (medical data segmentation)

[hearty island]

i just hunted for internships non stop throughout my college career. a lot of the regular people on this server know about my hunts

[rare cliff]

20k resumes sounds brutal though, how do internships even work where you're from? are they a set duration or an indefinite position?

[fringe sphinx]

I think you deserve your own channel at this point… lol

[hearty island]

set duration, normally. but three of mine were basically indefinite. depends on the employer.

[hearty island]

hahahahaha

[rare cliff]

sidenote also we get one or 2 nvidia certifs from free from uni that probably also helped

[hearty island]

is that a compliment or

[fringe sphinx]

I guess compliment? It’s interesting to me to hear your process and struggles (unfortunate as some may be).

[hearty island]

i do that bc y'all give good advice. and it's good to have some feedback

[rare cliff]

Can I see your github? Curious to see some BI projects (there were a few BI internships on the platform but didn't apply)

[hearty island]

i haven't updated my github in a long time, i probably should

[cinder fossil]

holy

[hearty island]

yea.... but honestly i blame that on me. i learned a lot through these interviews.

[rare cliff]

yea i got asked a lot about my undergrad thesis on interviews, it's also good practice to see if you can break down complex ML stuff (things like resampling voxel spacing data splits and generally project gist) into layman's terms for HR to understand. Being able to take the math/code mess that is ML sometimes and being able to explain it in simple terms is a pretty needed soft skill

[cinder fossil]

yeah for sure. every time I failed an interview I spent waaay too long researching the stuff they asked that I was unfamiliar with lol
helped out massively in subsequent interviews

[hearty island]

for example my interview at Ericsson they asked me to show them projects without me actually knowing that i had to showcase them. that's why on this interview i had a mindset of backing up what i say

absolutely invaluable lesson

[cinder fossil]

oh man, I don't think I even could showcase projects since all the good ones are under NDA

[hearty island]

they were blown away and it's likely that they didn't expect a project out of nowhere and also that no other candidate showed a project after me

[hearty island]

yea i just did it with open sourced data. right off a power bi page.

[fervent elk]

hi guys, have you had any issues with importing tensorflow.keras? i figured that i should maybe pick some projects to showcase for my uni interview, since i'm coming in from a business course

[rare cliff]

those are 2 separate questions, if you have issues w keras go to #❓｜how-to-get-help, as far as projects Kaggle would be a good place to start

[fervent elk]

yaa mostly the keras part haha trying to get started since i'm trying to apply for a Applied Ai degree

[rare cliff]

not sure I can help you there sadly, the other channels might help more

[stuck jetty]

how one can earn using python? other than a job