career-advice

[dark thunder]

are you in uni ?

[blazing harbor]

it depends but you can clear like $190k

[modern ore]

190k as IB including the bonuses?

[blazing harbor]

since 7th grade lol

[balmy spade]

It sure is. "Why would someone who has no degree earn as much or more than someone with a degree?" Because they demonstrate the same ability through the same amount of effort and time poured into the skills.

Again. School helps, especially in the pattern of our society.

[blazing harbor]

yeah $190k entry prob which is not bad imo bc you can grow faster in IB

[vapid jay]

do you have to take major classes like math and science and shit? or if i major for computer science is it jus gonna be computer science related

[dark thunder]

whats language are you most profecient in ?

[modern ore]

What about private equity

[blazing harbor]

prob a mixture of c++ and python

[dark thunder]

lol, a lot of math

[modern ore]

Yep, but you can pass with chatgpt 4 🙂

[vapid jay]

[stuck shell]

1+1=2

[vapid jay]

i have a 45 in math rn

[smoky quest]

If we want to be pedantic, there isn't even a need to have a similar amount of effort and time. Just a similar or more amount of results.
But the plausibility is still pretty low considering we are talking about someone in HS who thinks can earn more without going to college

[blazing harbor]

hmm prob can clear $300-400k but you have to be really good for that

my sister went to upenn and she knew people at wharton clearing like over $500k new grad

[modern ore]

190k entry level for IB @ Goldman sounds kinda low as a new grad 😭

[true harness]

computer science is mostly math with some focus on computer architecture, operating systems

[vapid jay]

i saw some guy cap off 14k yesterday

[modern ore]

from bonuses or base pay?

[balmy spade]

I don't have an issue with the comments toward the other who is in high school. My failing is an inability to remain silent when people start throwing around degrees and college/university as the only way.

ha. I should unplug my keyboard when I'm up this late.

[blazing harbor]

everything combined

[modern ore]

oh tc

[smoky quest]

It's more about adjusting the speech to the audience 😉

[blazing harbor]

EXTREMELY stressful tho I doubt you could last more than 3 years

[modern ore]

Private Equity is pretty insane from what I've heard

[stuck shell]

just opened up clion and they added an ai assistant

[dark thunder]

What’s private equity ?

[blazing harbor]

FLOW you have work to do 😭

[stuck shell]

https://www.jetbrains.com/clion/whatsnew/?utm_source=product&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=CL&utm_content=2023.2

[blazing harbor]

dw dw just think money 🤷‍♂️ but you don't really care about that so doesn't matter fr

[stuck shell]

right I keep getting offtopic

[blazing harbor]

honestly, I really fucking love money and math (cs too but mostly math and money)

[modern ore]

So you wanna get into Quant or IB?

[blazing harbor]

quant math requires PHD, but maybe swe at quant

[vapid jay]

1. family
2. money
3. big black oiled up men

[stuck shell]

if you have 5 dollars and your friend takes those 5 dollars how much money do you not not have?

[modern ore]

Quant math? like for trading and research?

[blazing harbor]

I've been looking at a few IBs did a few 1-1s with a few companies

[blazing harbor]

yeah pure quant 🤷‍♂️

[blazing harbor]

I'd kill that friend so I have $10 hehe (also you have work to do)

[stuck shell]

omg I love this feature https://www.jetbrains.com/clion/whatsnew/img/2023.2/commit_message.gif

[modern ore]

I guess the job requires PHD math, but isn't the interviewing like just the green book?

[blazing harbor]

FLOW off task again

[smoky quest]

depends if you know people

[modern ore]

?

[remote gust]

How can I learn python?

[blazing harbor]

yeah I'd say you prob don't want a lot of stress. I would say go for like msft or servicenow and you prob would get a cool $150k TC

[smoky quest]

The process can be made easier if you know people

[blazing harbor]

that's my recommended career path for you tbh go chiill I don't think you want competitiveness

[modern ore]

why are you cookin me 😭

[smoky quest]

that's pretty low for public companies

[blazing harbor]

I mean entry is not that bad you can grow maybe get $300 when you are like 25-26

[smoky quest]

It's bad because of the lack of upside.
Large companies have a higher base because they don't have as much upside

[blazing harbor]

$150 is not bad man

[modern ore]

I am talkin about the general one, like there is a book made for interviewing for Quant trading

[blazing harbor]

$150k puts you in the top percentile of earners in the US. Just don't marry and you will live a very good life

[smoky quest]

oh that

[modern ore]

this

[remote gust]

How do you guys learn python

[smoky quest]

for 150k, it's better to aim for a mid stage startup. There is a much better upside in the TC and growth

[blazing harbor]

how can you use an unfair coin to simulate a fair one

[modern ore]

idk bro im dumb 😭

[smoky quest]

There is a free book called "automate the boring stuff" which is awesome

[blazing harbor]

THINK OF SOMETHING???

[stuck shell]

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

u can make 150k a year being a manager at a store lol

[modern ore]

if I could think, I would be interviewing for jane street rn 🛌

[remote gust]

I’m taking intro to computer science but I’m not sure if I will learn everything from it

[blazing harbor]

I mean that's true, but it's so chill in servicenow and msft 😭 At least internship wise, you don't really do much 😭

[smoky quest]

you could make multiple times of that being a manger in a tech company

[vapid jay]

trust

[modern ore]

heard msft is really boring unless its like the bing bs with LLMs etc

[blazing harbor]

it is, but it's also chill it's a life (you should do it)

[smoky quest]

I know people like that.
They were in pain 2 years later when they had to interview for their next job and had nothing to show

[dark thunder]

depends on your teacher in my opinion

[modern ore]

I would rather work at meta 😹

[blazing harbor]

meta is WAY more hardcore. Save your hair and your sanity and don't do that

[dark thunder]

bro, your all knowing....

[vapid jay]

i think it’s capped at 400k ngl, i’ve never seen someone go to college and make more than 250k and his life was so ass he was working 60 hours a week and was depressed asf

[smoky quest]

It's not capped at 400k 😉

[blazing harbor]

my brother interned at servicenow sophomore year summer. He SLEPT during his 9-5 like literally just took afternoon naps on the clock

[modern ore]

Nah, meta is good because you can work as hard as you want, and you would benefit from it.

[vapid jay]

well what are you gonna be making after uni/college sir?

[blazing harbor]

guy literally didn't do jack shit and the pay was decent enough 🤷‍♂️ I think some people need that shit

[smoky quest]

entry level job is at ~150k/year

[blazing harbor]

I might just write down some bullshit bullets and leetcode and ur chilling tbf

[dark thunder]

in san fran ?

[modern ore]

yopu forgot the competition in tech 😭

[smoky quest]

bro. The recruiters will see you coming from a mile away.
You won't be their first rodeo

[vapid jay]

i’ll reply later lol i’m tired ash

[smoky quest]

Nope. Across the USA

[blazing harbor]

dude bullshitting isn't that hard just be like * Created dashboard system for ___ in Servicenow workflow with Power BI, Python systems

[vapid jay]

leetcode 😭

[modern ore]

Whats stopping you from grinding for quant like citadel and imc

[blazing harbor]

I like my hair tbh

[modern ore]

whats with you and hair 😭

[dark thunder]

what are doing specifically? like data analysis or ?

[smoky quest]

Sooooo, how many interviews have you done?
How many interviews has a recruiter done? They have talked to thousands of people at the very least

[blazing harbor]

DUDE IBS BE BALDING 😭

[gritty wyvern]

is usaco a good comp to use for college? or is grinding straight leetcode better

[modern ore]

usaco > leetcode

[smoky quest]

I like to keep an air of mystery 🕶️

[blazing harbor]

I mean my brother bssed his servicenow internship and landed citadel after which imo is amazing tbh

[smoky quest]

so you are saying that people at citadel are impotent

[modern ore]

how did he prep for citadel?

[gritty wyvern]

are there more prestigious ones though usaco has a (imo) narrow asking range and i was wondering if there was anything else to do on the side

[blazing harbor]

no it's just not that hard to BS lmao my dad's friend leveraged a $800k offer at Salesforce and his resume is 40% BS

[modern ore]

wym

[blazing harbor]

BSing is not hard. Is it ethical? probably not 😭 but who cares

[smoky quest]

that proves my point.
It's not that hard to uncover BS. You just need to ask questions about it

[blazing harbor]

I mean he got the offer?

[gritty wyvern]

I think i'm just bored of doing dp problem #300 and i wanted to see if any other comps asked anything different while on like platinum gold level

[modern ore]

Bro you got hella connections, can i see your resume lmao

[smoky quest]

so you are saying the interviews should be even more annoying and difficult to compensate for the people who BS

[blazing harbor]

no I'm just saying use the system and BS if you can

[smoky quest]

it proves my point they are impotent.
Had they asked basic questions about it, they would have seen the BS

[modern ore]

codeforces? I am still confused what you're asking 🤷‍♀️

[dark thunder]

thats what im saying... i feel like connections can only get you so far

[blazing harbor]

I mean it's mostly from my dad who worked for google, vmware, microsoft, stripe, and roblox

[gritty wyvern]

I think i'm just asking for different comp suggestions because I think usaco, although very good, is kind of boring to do because most of the problems solve the same way

[smoky quest]

I reject so many candidates because of that.
And then I make a point to make a note about it in their profile in the ATS

[gritty wyvern]

codeforces is a pretty good suggestion though, i've heard great things about it

[blazing harbor]

hmm I might have to watch out for your company but usually recruiters don't really see through your bs

[spark cobalt]

If you require bullshitting to get a job, it sounds like you're not equipped to do the job.

[modern ore]

If you're having no trouble with usaco, than dont do leetcode, its gonna be too easy for you. codeforces is the only other option if you want harder questions

[smoky quest]

There is the question of whether or not you would want to work with people so impotent and from whom there isn't so much to learn from

[blazing harbor]

I mean I'm not saying to fully bullshit, but if you have a job gap or if you have an internship where you didn't really do much you should bs a little

[spark cobalt]

It sounds like you measure your own self worth through comp, rather than the value you actually provide to a company.

[balmy spade]

Both do seem the wrong values, agreed.

[blazing harbor]

I acc have a stripe backpack which is p cool

[blazing harbor]

I just don't really find any value in any of these companies or their mission, so I just find the most comp with a decent WLB

[smoky quest]

that's a sign you should look further.
You could have so much fun and learn so much from a project you vibe with

[blazing harbor]

I don't think Citadel or certain teams in IMC have decent WLB, so even with their amazing comp like $19,200 a month. It's probably not something I'm interested in

[modern ore]

based

[blazing harbor]

(I like my hair)

[spark cobalt]

You could be doing something you enjoy and have fun doing 40 hours a week lol which will likely end up with good pay regardless but it's your life

[blazing harbor]

hmm I just didn't like my previous teams. I do like my research tho

[smoky quest]

We are offering good money but explicitly not the most because we want cool people to work with, not just greedy people

[blazing harbor]

how can you sense greed tho?

[stuck shell]

gn

[blazing harbor]

I feel like it's super hard to tell if someone is greedy or not just with an interview lol

[smoky quest]

people who would jump to another offer because it's higher or keep on negotiating

[modern ore]

How would a recruiter know that?

[blazing harbor]

I mean negotiating is super fair tho

[smoky quest]

bro. Every company has market data. We all know what is the X percentile for a given segment of the market in a specific location

[spark cobalt]

Rare recursive bro

[smoky quest]

and I will gladly let you go somewhere else if the money means that much

[modern ore]

Like companies know which interviewee is interviewing where?

[blazing harbor]

I mean if someone was like "hey, I really like this company and your values, and this project seems like something I'm super interested in, but I have this offer from Amazon for ___ k TC. Would you be able to "

[smoky quest]

no. They know what is the 70 percentile TC for an entry level engineer working in tech company and living in Austin, Tx

[spark cobalt]

but

[smoky quest]

then go to amazon if that's what you prioritize

[blazing harbor]

I'm sure you have a lot of UT austin CS kids negotiating with other offers

[modern ore]

doesnt netflix or meta match compettiting offers or higher?

[blazing harbor]

I mean money is definitely part of the equation you can't deny that

[smoky quest]

I have thousands of applicants. I literally do not care

[blazing harbor]

don't you want to work with your applicants to find a job offer that makes both sides happy?

[smoky quest]

We offer competitive pay for candidates.
We do not want to reward the most privileged candidates and would rather prioritize diversity and ensure everyone is paid the same for the same responsibilities

[blazing harbor]

so you don't allow ppl to leverage other offers?

[spark cobalt]

This is pretty shallow and have very little focus on future. Sure, pay will immediately feel good, but what happens if it's doing something you don't enjoy, and you end up making your next 30 years about that something?

Especially if you're a new grad saying this, it feels like a red flag.

[smoky quest]

most other offers are from companies at a different stage (ex: public company vs startup) or different growth path

[blazing harbor]

I mean money is part of the equation, and it's always recommended to leverage other offers by like any career center

[spark cobalt]

Sure, you do want to live.

[blazing harbor]

I mean that should be part of the conversation

[spark cobalt]

Just for a 22 year old, 20k difference in TC is nothing, is insignificant and literally does not matter.

[smoky quest]

it certainly can!
But it will also depend on how much you impressed people. But considering there are literally thousands of other people in the pipeline, that's also not a big deal

[blazing harbor]

my dad did this interview with gitlab, and they wanted to pay him $100k less than his previous job. They were spitting some bs about remote culture and how it's such a great project

[spark cobalt]

Also, as a new grad, how do you evaluate what you're worth in dollar amount? Do you know how much you provide to a company?

[blazing harbor]

BUT money is a huge part of the job

[spark cobalt]

If a company asks you why you deserve to be paid 300k, what is your answer as a new grad who hasn't done anything?

[smoky quest]

yeah it goes both ways.
I have had to say no to companies because that would be lowering too much my tc

And I have had people trying to get a salary from London while living in Romania. And I had to tell them good luck with that

[spark cobalt]

I mean that's realistic, no one wants to make rash lifestyle changes for a job switch.

[smoky quest]

the market goes both ways

[blazing harbor]

hmm 🤔 maybe based on prior data on levels.fyi (you can't exactly cite it)

but you should be paid close to the numbers there.. if citadel throws you an offer for $200k TC and you're like wait a minute

[smoky quest]

• Most of that data as pre-last downturn
• TC is a complicated mix
• Different stages mean different compensation profile

[modern ore]

this is old, citadel new TC is like 590k 💀

i guess that says avg, but the new ones I've been seeing is above 500k

[blazing harbor]

hmm 🤔

[vapid jay]

i forgot companies give salaries based on location

[smoky quest]

do you think a seed startup will pay the same than meta?

[blazing harbor]

I mean they also offer based on school and stuff so you have to get a stratified average

[modern ore]

True, also return offers, etc

[blazing harbor]

absolutely not

[smoky quest]

and do you think the 3 year timeline provides a similar growth for your career?

[modern ore]

😹

[blazing harbor]

hmm I'm curious I know like meta has one of the highest promotion rates in tech, but how does startup culture compare

[smoky quest]

startup life is like 10x the life of a faang.

[blazing harbor]

I don't think there is a single startup that actually excites me 🤔

[modern ore]

What about zipline

[spark cobalt]

Probably cuz you're only excited about the money

[smoky quest]

most faang are considered retirement homes for engineers

[spark cobalt]

Stocks 🤤

[modern ore]

Most? maybe google, idk about the others

[blazing harbor]

I like technology like Google Knowledge Graph or like tech to speech apis

[smoky quest]

same for all of them. I have friends across the board

[modern ore]

Amazon def not

[blazing harbor]

no I really like math lol and data science

[vapid jay]

why would someone join a startup if its so hard?

[modern ore]

stock?

[spark cobalt]

You say that but two of our people left to Amazon to basically just chill lmfao

[blazing harbor]

I like nosql dbs with acid transactions and just working with data engineering

[blazing harbor]

I mean AWS is p hardcore

[blazing harbor]

I think it's just for different crowds tbh neither is better than the other

[smoky quest]

depends on the team and whether or not you are an engineer or a manager

[spark cobalt]

Depends on the org and depends on the startup.

[blazing harbor]

I went to this startup fair with companies like bubble, retool,ramp, wispr, caledra, etc

[smoky quest]

it depends on the trade offs you are willing to make

[modern ore]

Yea, I agree it depends on the team

[spark cobalt]

Our startup is kind of not super nice time-wise. Enough of our engineers in SJ work closely with India team that no one works a normal 9-5.

[blazing harbor]

the ideas were stupid af imo 🤷‍♂️ it really depends, but I usually hate the startup idea

[smoky quest]

more freedom in startups than large companies. It's way too slow

[spark cobalt]

Sounds like you didn't explore enough then. After all, the big companies you wanna go to were startups once.

[blazing harbor]

THIS ONE WAS THE WORST holy I just walked away in the v1 event at umich

[spark cobalt]

Growth goes crazy lol

[blazing harbor]

😭

[smoky quest]

they are so old. Are they even considered at a startup?

[smoky quest]

stock goes brrrrrr [sometimes]

[spark cobalt]

[blazing harbor]

I mean it was at the startup fair @ University of Michigan

[modern ore]

I hate ramp, mfs always filter based on school 🛌

sent near perfect ICF and CTF score, still rejected wtf 😠

[steel kindle]

ICF, CTF? What are these?

[modern ore]

Industry Coding Framework, Capture the Flag

[blazing harbor]

yeah not a fan tbh

[vapid jay]

oooooo id love to try CTF

but im too noob for that

[spark cobalt]

@blazing harbor I'm almost 1 YOE. At my company I'm the lead engineer for the testing infrastructure for the entire company, which we also sell to some companies (big one being Bloomberg, granted, it is not the main product they're purchasing from my company). I've had my own intern last summer, have my own contractor right now, etc.

You'll likely never see anything like this in a big company. The amount of politics (imagine someone did this there, people would be questioning the credibility of people doing it, people will immediately assume bias, etc.) only limits you, even if it acts as a safeguard. Also, startup = you tend to get immediate feedback for what you provide, growth comes easily (in comparison to FAANG where you get feedback from customers 4 years later.)

I'm not saying big companies are bad, but you seem to be seriously biased against startups.

[steel kindle]

honestly it's probably because companies aren't only focused on what you can code. That's probably not even the biggest thing they're looking for as an entry level engineer.

[spark cobalt]

For context, we're Series D, have about 200 people working here...? We pay pretty well, 130k or something around there for new grads (not including stocks, 130k base)

[modern ore]

They get 10k+ applicants, they don't look at your code lol

[spark cobalt]

They may at later interview stages when it's filtered enough, but definitely not at resume filtering stage.

[steel kindle]

Well yeah

[blazing harbor]

Hmm so let's just say I joined your team as a data scientist, what would my day to day look like?

[blazing harbor]

$130k is solid based no problems there tbh

[spark cobalt]

I don't know, since I don't have experience with what data scientists do day to day.

[blazing harbor]

money is a huge priority bc I pay $40k/yr for college (scholarship but no help from my parents)

[vapid jay]

woah

[blazing harbor]

so I will graduate $160k+ in the hole

[spark cobalt]

Tbh, as long as they can maturely and methodically approach problems (it doesn't have to be God's work, but it just can't be jump to a random solution and code immediately), they can communicate and they can take advice and turn it into something actionable, then they're good enough for me.

[steel kindle]

yeah but ime the communication part is what people are more likely to struggle with

[blazing harbor]

@spark cobalt I hate it when people are like well you know, money shouldn't be a priority for you if you work here

money is always a priority when it comes to the job search

[spark cobalt]

I don't really think entry level engineer requirements are that high, applicants just keep thinking 1 dimensionally when there's so much more to being SWE.

[spark cobalt]

Gotta make it worth your time I guess.

[brave frost]

Hello guys, I am recent Grad student in ECE with an internship experience of 6 months as a software developer intern and due to Hiring freeze my full time employment got rejected, I am really worried about my carrier, I have completed my internship on July, and today it is almost 4 months of carrier gap, so what should I do?

[steel kindle]

yeah definitely. That's what I am getting at. You can be an amazing programmer but that doesn't mean anyone would want to hire you.

[spark cobalt]

I'm not saying money isn't a priority, I just think when you're a new grad, money shouldn't be the first priority.

[steel kindle]

I prioritized WLB tbh

[blazing harbor]

I mean some people like me have major debts to pay

[brave frost]

I have applied more that 50 companies with taking proper referral.

what should I do now?

[modern ore]

only 50?

[blazing harbor]

I find getting face to face time or 1-1 with recruiters are especially helpful

online apps are just filled with thousands of applications, but if you can get in front of a recruiter and really show why you are a genius, that could really help

[brave frost]

no actully i am not getting any opportunity.

[blazing harbor]

use your university's career services to set up a few 1-1s

[spark cobalt]

You'll be paid 6 figures+ most likely no matter what, debt isn't really the problem, setting your foundations of your career in something you may not enjoy or is a dead end or something like that is worse.

[modern ore]

50 is a low number imo

[blazing harbor]

I feel like online apps go in the shitter most of the time

[spark cobalt]

Most apps are online anyways. But yeah 50 is super low

[brave frost]

Oh so how many did you applied?

[blazing harbor]

I mean you can always talk to a recruiter and get your foot in the door

[modern ore]

i havent kept count 🤔

[steel kindle]

probably like 200+ as a new grad

[blazing harbor]

I mean let's say you make $150k in California. You are probably left with around $100k take home pay. You would be just spending money with basic necessities and living atp

[spark cobalt]

At least for third party recruiters, it's not hard to get an entry level engineer these days, there's just so much lol.

[blazing harbor]

You would lose tons of money bc you are renting apartments and not buying a car until much later on in your life

[brave frost]

okay

[steel kindle]

150k is fine in CA

[spark cobalt]

My yearly expenses (I pay for everything except for my Costco membership) is 25k and I live in Cupertino (like 5 mins away from Apple Park).

[blazing harbor]

$25k??? 😭 wtf

[spark cobalt]

Unless you literally Doordash everyday or have trouble managing your money or have a gambling/drug addiction, 150k is extremely easy to live on.

[steel kindle]

I mean I don't pay rent or utilities but do pretty much everything else and I am living on like 15-18k

[blazing harbor]

I mean live on + pay debts + save for buying an apartment/car

[steel kindle]

I spend more because I fly like every month, but you don't have to do that

[harsh river]

don't you live with your parents though

[blazing harbor]

I feel like the longer you have to wait to buy your first property, the more money you lose j bc renting is not efficient at all

[spark cobalt]

My parents live in LA

[steel kindle]

it's plenty for that

[harsh river]

ahh, you must've found a cheap place to rent then

[steel kindle]

that's not entirely true. It can be the case but it's not cut and dry

[spark cobalt]

Yep, 830/mo including all utilities

[blazing harbor]

what the fuck

[harsh river]

lucky fucker, for your area that's like, free

[spark cobalt]

Yeah, minimum wage livable lmao

[steel kindle]

I actually have free rent atm which is nice

[harsh river]

i'll just move in with wilder PSV for the free rent

[spark cobalt]

Takes no risk though.

[frosty halo]

Ok, no issues

[spark cobalt]

If you want to take no risk with buying apartment, are you going to live in apartment for the rest of your life? And that specific one?

[blazing harbor]

tbf like last week I just randomly signed up for some events at U of M and I got 1-1s with wayfair, bny mellon, citi, SC Johnson, NSA, DCSA, Service Now, Nvidia, Broad Institute, NORC, and Levelgrid. I just sent out a few messages, and I got lots of recs. I will see where this goes, but I find it a lot more useful than like just online applying

[harsh river]

yeah, recruiters are humans too

[blazing harbor]

just the 10 minutes you get to pitch yourself really helps for your application

[spark cobalt]

I think career fairs are a given, but those are not third party recruiters.

[blazing harbor]

yeah that's true

it's just so fucking easy nowadays to apply for 100 companies that you lose that face value. Recruiting becomes a number game, which doesn't help you

so you wanna make it more personal imo

[spark cobalt]

Wrong channel. Banned. Reported. Blocked.

[coral vine]

Is it a closet, Harry?

[spark cobalt]

Nope

[blazing harbor]

dude like here: https://morganstanley.tal.net/vx/brand-2/candidate/so/pm/1/pl/2/opp/16428-Sales-Trading-and-Research-Open-House/en-GB

[harsh river]

wilder won the lottery

[blazing harbor]

boom go market yourself there Morgan Stanley is p decent

[spark cobalt]

I just looked a ton. Mostly because I didn't have a job/offer yet when I moved to San Jose.

[blazing harbor]

I fucking hate california so many weird people

[spark cobalt]

Whatever state you're from, you're weird to every other state too lol

[blazing harbor]

I'd prob work in NYC or Seattle

[blazing harbor]

I used to live in Cali and it was just so hot and filled with weirdos tbh

[spark cobalt]

I only had 10k saved, couldn't just ball with 2.5k apartment lol

[steel kindle]

def not hot where I live

[smoky quest]

every state have their weirdos

[spark cobalt]

You're weirder than most people I know in California tbf

[steel kindle]

when I moved here I had like $44 in my bank account

[blazing harbor]

I mean I think I'm a cool type of weird

[spark cobalt]

I worked part time job in HS, easy to save money when you have no expenses

[steel kindle]

fair. I had just been travelling and spent basically all of my money.

[blazing harbor]

hmm would you consider yourself LGBTQ if you are bisexual but have never openly dated a man?

[steel kindle]

Like $15,000 or whatever that I had saved

[blazing harbor]

I'm not sure 🤔

[steel kindle]

oh lmao. yeah.

[harsh river]

yikes

[spark cobalt]

I openly dated KRRT for like 10 minuytes uwu

[blazing harbor]

what's yikes about that lol

[steel kindle]

Ok with context it's a bit better

[spark cobalt]

Sexuality doesn't require you to have dated someone to begin with. You could be straight and never dated anyone.

[harsh river]

what the fuck, i never consented

[spark cobalt]

uwu

[blazing harbor]

yeah that's very true 🙏 I like the original message tho: "You could be straight and get no bitches"

[steel kindle]

I am going to start saying that I am Hispanic/Latino on my job apps since my family is Quebecois, which are technically Latinos.

[spark cobalt]

Idk how PC this server is, so had to edit

Some days mods let it slide, other days I get a 1 day timeout

[blazing harbor]

if you get banned, would you really care tho

[spark cobalt]

People here are cool, so yeah I would care. Also the people here I trust to answer any questions I have.

[smoky quest]

people get modded for a reason.
Don't be that person

[harsh river]

anyways, what's everyone's favorite thing about work?

[spark cobalt]

You haven't helped me once so :/

[blazing harbor]

do you wanna be a mini mod for $0/hr?

[spark cobalt]

This prolly hella off topic, imma go do laundry

Someone just messaged me saying they ran into a problem but refuses to elaborate

[steel kindle]

from work?

[spark cobalt]

Yeah

[blazing harbor]

it's sunday (deal with it after 9 AM tmr)

[steel kindle]

dude, it's sunday

[spark cobalt]

It's Monday for India. India team loves me cuz my sleep schedule is giga fucked (I slept from 2-8 PM today)

[blazing harbor]

do you think outsourcing developers is ethical?

[steel kindle]

you answer outside your working hours?

[spark cobalt]

We have a branch in India, I wouldn't consider it outsourcing

[blazing harbor]

hmm how much is the comp difference

[spark cobalt]

I mentioned this earlier, but no one at my company really works a 9-5. I work whenever I want.

I don't have "working hours" basically

[steel kindle]

fair. We don't have them either but I am supposed to be contactable from 9-5 even if I am only working 10-3 or so

[blazing harbor]

that sucks 😦 don't respond after 5 pm tbh

[spark cobalt]

Probably less. Six figures you live like a king there lmfao

[spark cobalt]

I don't work from 9 to 5 though. I sleep in almost everyday (cuz of my fucked up sleep schedule) and work some hours in afternoon and some hours at night. I like working at night.

Working during the day is yucky, night is all quiet and calm and cool and chill

Actually I do need to go to office tomorrow, need to sync up with my contractor. Been sick the last week

[steel kindle]

fair, I don't really mind it. I do need to be at standup most days though. 10:15am every day.

[blazing harbor]

I mean what about date nights or partying

[spark cobalt]

I'm not a college student

[steel kindle]

?

[blazing harbor]

I mean don't people still party after uni?

[spark cobalt]

Not as much as college students, typically will be on weekend.

[steel kindle]

In reality it's a lot less lol. But yeah some people still do.

[spark cobalt]

Also, I'm 19. No alcohol for me. Is illegal.

[steel kindle]

Although I don't mind some beers and a few games of pool at a bar on a weeknight

[harsh river]

non college students can have date nights and party

[vapid jay]

whole lotta yappin

[blazing harbor]

I mean I feel like the 21+ rule is bullshit when you look at european countries

[harsh river]

you can party without alc

[spark cobalt]

I asked you out on a date but you said no :c

[vapid jay]

only illegal if u get caught

[blazing harbor]

they got the kids starting drinking fucking everclear at 15

[harsh river]

i'm straight

[spark cobalt]

Most parties are alcohol nowadays

[steel kindle]

I think it's always been that way lol

[blazing harbor]

parties are boring without alcohol tbh

[harsh river]

not really, there's plenty of parties where alc aren't involved

[blazing harbor]

I think after 5-6 shots it gets super fun but not more than 6 shots

[spark cobalt]

I'm not really into parties, more into like small groups and chill and fuck around tbh

[harsh river]

as someone who loves alc, parties can be very fun without alcohol, it's just very dependent on the friends you're with

[blazing harbor]

I only party like Thursday, Friday, and maybe Saturday

[spark cobalt]

Respectfully, if you require to be intoxicated for something to be fun, it probably isn't that fun

All my close friends are around the country, can only do things when we're all back at home in LA

[harsh river]

it can be even more fun though, you lose your inhibition and you can let loose more easily.

[spark cobalt]

Ye

[blazing harbor]

it's just more fun, but partying without alcohol is still fun

[harsh river]

OT though.

[steel kindle]

I honestly just like beer and trying new ones.

Although I think this is getting quite a bit off topic.

[blazing harbor]

I'm a big corona guy tbf

[spark cobalt]

Work is flexible. If I have something planned, I'll just do the work at an earlier or later time.

[harsh river]

same, but it's fun trying new ones

[blazing harbor]

okay that's fair

[steel kindle]

Yeah the flexible working hours are really nice

Flexible hours + remote + low hours are really the best working benefits imo

[spark cobalt]

FAANG is typically too rigid with it :c

[blazing harbor]

no my sister gets like chats at 3 am to fix bugs

[steel kindle]

yeah I don't work for a FAANG company, just another large bay area tech company

[blazing harbor]

she hates google bc no WLB 😦

[spark cobalt]

I'm assuming she also works 9-5 on top of doing those 3 AM chats?

[blazing harbor]

yep

[spark cobalt]

Rip lol

[steel kindle]

oh fuck that. I am doing like 10-3 most days and it still sucks if I have to commute.

[blazing harbor]

I feel like a chill life at service now and msft is just a lot better

damn I liked datadog's technology 😭

[spark cobalt]

Flex hours for when people complain

[steel kindle]

wym

[harsh river]

advice to management goes hard.

that's a huge fuck yall

[spark cobalt]

Like not doing full 40 hours and "reserving" extra hours for more light work that may not appear

[smoky quest]

work harder, not smarter

[steel kindle]

oh yeah, they could call me in pretty much whenever if the issue was big enough, so ig that's the trade off. It's a pretty sweet deal though imo

[blazing harbor]

what the fuck 😭

[spark cobalt]

Yep. I spend a lot of those working hours to make sure it doesn't happen, totally pays off

[blazing harbor]

https://prestigehunt.com/ do people really consider nvidia the most prestigious company to work for?

[steel kindle]

only issue is figuring out what to do with my time in the bay. doesn't seem like there's much to do here.

[blazing harbor]

databricks I get it's an amazing company tbh. Definitely super underrated

[steel kindle]

why do you care about company prestige lol

[blazing harbor]

no I don't care just curious about what ppl think 🤔

[spark cobalt]

Depends on what you work on in Nvidia. If you work on their landing website I couldn't give a fuck

[smoky quest]

there are gazillions hike to do, tons of places to visit.
Tons of historical places and museums.
Tons of places to party
Many meetups and hacking spaces

[blazing harbor]

I'm interested in their LLM team

[steel kindle]

yeah I mean hiking and historical places. Nowhere to party where I live.

Also the nightlife in SF is mediocre at best imo.

[spark cobalt]

I think I just need friends, so lonely out here :(

[blazing harbor]

get some bitches

[harsh river]

i have the perfect friend for you, you can send kisses back and forth

[steel kindle]

everyone ik lives in the south or east bay pretty much

[spark cobalt]

Nah. Dating market is like 23+ and I'm 19 rn. I don't wanna date a student with all due respect

[harsh river]

i'm a student

[steel kindle]

I live in Marin

[spark cobalt]

You weren't, but now you are

[blazing harbor]

did you graduate in like 2 years?

[harsh river]

i was actually

[spark cobalt]

No, I never went to college

[blazing harbor]

college is amazing man 😦

[harsh river]

he went from HS to work, like i said mf won the lottery

[spark cobalt]

Bruh I thought you had like a year gap or something

[harsh river]

taking a gap means still a student, and yeah college is amazing, i wasn't learning anything new but had an amazing time

[spark cobalt]

I'm trying out some femboy fits, I'm super excited

[blazing harbor]

I mean I find that uni years are super fun tbh. you have your whole career ahead of you but 4 years for college

[spark cobalt]

Oh fair enough

[harsh river]

you should go to raves, lot's of supportive femboys, like not even kidding

[smoky quest]

you aren't looking that hard then

[blazing harbor]

I've learned so much in uni esp in math. I bet Wilder doesn't know anything past linear algebra

[harsh river]

from what i hear, the nightlife in SF goes hard

[smoky quest]

you should party with @spark cobalt

[harsh river]

they'll just sip tea and chat about oh my what a nice weather this week

[spark cobalt]

[smoky quest]

but can they handle it?

[harsh river]

probs too much for them, bless their hearts

[spark cobalt]

My dad was a physics professor. He taught me LA some years ago

[steel kindle]

I mean maybe it's not my thing. I haven't particularly enjoyed it and there's no public transit to get to the city.

[blazing harbor]

I mean like past linear algebra like analysis or abstract algebra or even maybe non computational linear algebra taking a look at kernels, basis, etc

[smoky quest]

the bay has millions of people and span quite a few cities.
So I am sure the experience will be different depending on if you are in gilroy or daly city

[spark cobalt]

I've done some analysis

[steel kindle]

well yeah obviously. But I can't exactly go party in SJ or Daly City lol

[spark cobalt]

Right now I'm studying physics and Japanese. For me, utility in math/physics is just training my logistical thinking, the content for me is irrelevant ATM since I don't see myself using any of this knowledge in the next like 10 years

[blazing harbor]

I mean you never know what your plans for the future are

[spark cobalt]

I don't, but I don't see myself switching to a different career path

[steel kindle]

i do lol

[blazing harbor]

holy shit 💀 $60/hr internship

it's a fucking shitty company with a horrible idea but $60 is $60 🤔

[steel kindle]

I want to be done with software in 10 years or so

[blazing harbor]

you can say that right now but you're also fucking 19

[spark cobalt]

Hmmm, in 10 years I don't think I'll be the one writing software. But I don't know yet

Writing software is low-key fun af

[harsh river]

you'll be telling the guy who writes software what to do

[blazing harbor]

manager rip

[steel kindle]

well I mean anything in software

[smoky quest]

or llama10

[harsh river]

i've been having a lot of fun with Textual, i'm considering asking the guys about an internship or something

[blazing harbor]

I feel like getting a bachelors is kinda necessary. What if you ever want an MBA?

[harsh river]

they seem pretty down to earth and chill

[spark cobalt]

Idt age really matters. All I have is 4 more years of time

[harsh river]

once you have demonstrable experience in this field, an BS or MBA isn't all that neccesary imo (this includes work experience)

[spark cobalt]

Dunno, I haven't wanted it yet

[blazing harbor]

but what if you do in the future? You can't get one without a bachelors

[steel kindle]

then he can get the bachelors

[smoky quest]

depends on the job

[blazing harbor]

that would suck at 26+ imo

[spark cobalt]

Get a bachelor's or sucks to suck I guess

[harsh river]

shush with your defense contracts and such

[spark cobalt]

Then sucks to suck!

[steel kindle]

maybe?

[harsh river]

when you have experience it gets easier to do accelerated BS + whatevs

[blazing harbor]

I mean how accelerated could you get? 3 years? less than 3 years?

I still think the traditional education path is really good, esp in the US.

[steel kindle]

I did mine in 2.5 years

[harsh river]

in the US? very.

[blazing harbor]

I mean 2.5 years is not bad I'm graduating in 3 years traditionally

[harsh river]

in the us a traditional degree is 4 years though

[blazing harbor]

I have a lot of credits

[spark cobalt]

I kinda don't think I'll ever get one, if I do it'll be because I want to learn about something specific.

I'd honestly only really go to college to study music.

[steel kindle]

I am getting a Masters atm but it's online. If I got back for an in person degree it'll 100% not be CS.

[blazing harbor]

I think going to college for CS has lots of its benefits. I find that a lot of these self taught programmers don't know higher level mathematics or even basic statistics

[spark cobalt]

Yeah I'm on same boat as Dylan. 100% wouldn't do CS.

[harsh river]

i know math, i can count from 1 to 10 and 2 + 2 = 5

[steel kindle]

you don't necessarily need to know high level mathematics, and high level mathematics isn't taught in CS degrees anyways.

[blazing harbor]

I remember asking this self taught programmer like the simple least squares regression formula yk A^TAx = A^Tb. One of the first things you learn that's acc applicable in linear algebra

[spark cobalt]

I have a great dad who teaches me these things.

[smoky quest]

there are only 10 types of people

[blazing harbor]

do you know abstract algebra?

[harsh river]

honestly once i go back to school, i'll transfer over to a program that has a bit of all of my passions, software, psychology and sociology, i'm only doing college for the hell of it

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough

[harsh river]

3% of staticians agree with you., meant to reply to @smoky quest

[steel kindle]

Yeah I feel that. My current online degree is in CS because I do actually enjoy it, but I can't imagine spending another year only really studying that.

[spark cobalt]

Are you gonna go in the same rant about that study flaw shit you went with someone else?

You sound like those students that know a lot about theoretical stuff and can recite things but can't put stuff into practice

[steel kindle]

yeah I don't really know why most people would need to know anything about abstract algebra. What are you going to use a ring for in software?

[spark cobalt]

What have you built using this higher math knowledge?

[blazing harbor]

I'm not sure what you mean can't put stuff into practice? I don't have a lot of experience, but I have a year of experience with SWE with johnson and johnson. I have a few sponsored projects

I'm going to be doing CS research next year and it's extremely useful to have knowledge in abstract algebra and ofc analysis

[steel kindle]

yeah but that's academia lol. It's almost a completely different thing.

[smoky quest]

stuff like error detection and correction, or stuff like compression?

[blazing harbor]

^^ very good applications

[harsh river]

welp, CS is often theoretical, involves a lot of math, SWE is applied.

[spark cobalt]

For me building a physics engine and game engine from scratch

[blazing harbor]

I think CS majors should be able to do both

[steel kindle]

I also wouldn't really count the math taught in a CS degree as advanced math but w/e

[spark cobalt]

Though it's moreso a lot of LA and calculus

[harsh river]

that's not often the case though, most CS majors tend to only focus on the theoretical. at least in academia

[blazing harbor]

my brother goes to CMU SCS and 90% of the stuff he learns is absolutely useless for the SWE job market place

[spark cobalt]

Same with the math you're describing right now

[steel kindle]

that's most CS degrees

[blazing harbor]

yet, the school produces one of the best SWEs in the world

[harsh river]

yeah, that's because a lot of people just hear the SEO words "COMPUTAH SCIHENCHE" and apply

[steel kindle]

does it? that might just be selection bias lol

[spark cobalt]

nosqldb living in buzzword paradise

[blazing harbor]

I mean it's considered one of the best or the best CS program in the world

[steel kindle]

yeah, but a lot of what you learn in school isn't directly applicable to SWE, or if it is, it's applications are niche

[spark cobalt]

Most of colleges usefulness to a student is putting a bunch of bright kids together to keep them pushing each other.

UC Berkeley is supposedly a good school too, but you ain't learning shit when each class is 1000:1 student to professor ratio

[steel kindle]

I don't regret going to school, but if I did it for 3 or 4 years I might

[spark cobalt]

But, Berkeley kids are bright. They push each other (and give each other imposter syndrome)

[blazing harbor]

I mean that's like the worst case public school tbh. CMU is a private school and has a much better ratios. I go to U of Michigan which is a public school, but also has way better ratios. My discrete math is like 20 students per class

berkeley is just a shit hole tbh I got in but nooo 😭 I don't wanna have a horrible college experience

[spark cobalt]

I'm just saying you're overvaluing some things and neglecting some other things.

[blazing harbor]

no the ratios are acc quite good, and you can get 1-1s with professors. it's not like you aren't getting personalized attention

[steel kindle]

lol

[spark cobalt]

Bruh

[blazing harbor]

I mean the length depends

I seriously think everyone, if they can afford it and have appropiate circumstances, should get a associates degree at least

[steel kindle]

I mean that's fine. You're also still in school.

Like I said, I don't regret getting mine. However idk if I would get mine going back in time, and I almost definitely would not major in CS.

[blazing harbor]

that's very true, but I considered not going to university. I realized that while I have taken calc 1-3 and computational linear algebra in hs, and quite a few math courses, there was still a lot of math to learn.

[steel kindle]

Yeah I mean you don't really need that math for SWE

[harsh river]

and if you do, you can just learn it

[steel kindle]

Yup

[blazing harbor]

this is true, but I do think having a college professor is pretty useful

[spark cobalt]

My dad is one :3

[harsh river]

can your dad tutor me on math, i never made it past algebra

[blazing harbor]

does your dad teach analysis?

[spark cobalt]

Does your self worth come from you knowing analysis or something. What have you done with analysis?

[blazing harbor]

I did some analysis on your mother

but anyway, it's just an example of why I think it's important for people to get an formal education rather than relying on bootcamps and online courses

[steel kindle]

why is that important to know

[spark cobalt]

Idk. Maybe I never asked

[blazing harbor]

they are definitely helpful in progressing your education, but I do think there needs to be some sort of baseline with university (however long you go for uni)

[steel kindle]

ok but you just don't need to know them to be a SWE

[spark cobalt]

How does your life experiences confirm this?

[blazing harbor]

maybe you go for university for a year and you're like fuck this is a waste of time

[blazing harbor]

I've done a grand total of 15 courses on coursera and I have a AWS certification for big data

[spark cobalt]

How many used this analysis you speak of?

[blazing harbor]

I've done a lot of self studying lmfao I was going to not go to college tbh

[blazing harbor]

I worked with the TCS group at columbia

[spark cobalt]

What

[blazing harbor]

it's theory for CS, but I found it really helpful for like quant interviews (unfortunately haven't really been doing well in quant recruiting so far)

[steel kindle]

academia is a whole other world

[blazing harbor]

yeah but a lot of the game theory stuff comes especially helpful

[spark cobalt]

Quant is not representative of most SWE positions

[blazing harbor]

you'd be surprised how much academia helps

[steel kindle]

would I? I'm pretty sure I have more experience than you.

[blazing harbor]

maybe? maybe not?

[harsh river]

being well rounded does help

[spark cobalt]

You've literally only lived in academia your entire life, how do you know its use outside of academia

[steel kindle]

absolutely. There is value in academia, but it is another world and not always in touch with the private sector.

[blazing harbor]

I don't have a lot of experience, but I do have a few sponsored projects and a year of internship experience (which is not a lot IK)

I enjoyed doing a lot of hackathons and getting some practical developer experience too in HS

[steel kindle]

that reminds me, as of a few weeks ago I started programming 3 years ago

[harsh river]

few sponsored projects regarding what?

[blazing harbor]

oh I got this ML environment project sponsored by this water company

[harsh river]

sounds like research

[blazing harbor]

not really lmao

[spark cobalt]

With all due respect, you sound like if r/CSMajors was shoved into one human being

[steel kindle]

🤣

[harsh river]

with all due respect, you sound like you spend most of your time on reddit

you know like, every type of redditor from what i've seen

[blazing harbor]

With all due respect, you sound like one of those "self taught developers" that think their path is the best one

[spark cobalt]

I used to go to that subreddit cuz there was a CS Majors Discord server or something, and it's all copy paste same opinions from kids with no career

[spark cobalt]

I've never said my path was the best one, or even promoted or suggested other people do that path. That's what you've been doing

[blazing harbor]

with all due respect, I think my path is what's recommended

[spark cobalt]

In fact, I regularly suggest people to not pursue this path in this channel.

[smoky quest]

It's better to focus on the argument than which redditor that person matches the best

with all due respect, just saying

[spark cobalt]

Good for you. You're doing great

[harsh river]

with all due respect, we mostly just tell people to go into the work force rather than academia

[spark cobalt]

Eh

[blazing harbor]

with all due respect, I said a good mix of academia could help with the work force

I think schools like uwaterloo that prioritize the industry over everything kinda suck

going even further, I think a mix of liberal arts courses help build communication, analytical, etc skills that's needed for every basic person

[smoky quest]

I had super technical classes about OCL and other model driven development and shit but also about communication, sales, economy, etc.

[blazing harbor]

yeah I'm taking a course on Bargaining and Influence Skills at Ross, while also taking my CS + Math Courses

"well, it's not directly applicable to my career that I find important 19 years old"

[steel kindle]

you can learn these things outside of uni by doing things like having a job lol

When I graduated I spent 8 months travelling and I think that improved my transferrable skills more than college did in 2.5 years

[smoky quest]

you could learn them the hard way over 5 years and loose tens of thousands of dollars, or have a class about it and learn about it in a few weeks. ymmv

[blazing harbor]

I think you need a combination of both formal education and also have real world experience hehe

[steel kindle]

tbh I don't think there's anything you can learn in a few weeks at uni that would take you 5 years on your own

[smoky quest]

you may be surprised 😉

[blazing harbor]

You probably didn't take the right courses or go to the right university

[steel kindle]

I think it's beneficial to a lot of people, not needed. There can be better things to do with your time.

[steel kindle]

I would say it's worked out fine for me lmao

[blazing harbor]

what's fine?

[steel kindle]

my life/career and what not

[smoky quest]

Tbh this is a very difficult argument to make, either way.
We are not comparing a scenario where you die and one where you don't die. We are comparing variations. Some where you may save years to get to a similar point. It's difficult to articulate and compare precisely, especially considering the unknowns

[steel kindle]

But I wouldn't save years to get to a similar point

[smoky quest]

You don't know that

[steel kindle]

I do actually. Unless I was going to be doing what I am now at 17 it wouldn't be possible to save years.

[blazing harbor]

hmm recursive_error do you think it's possible for someone after graduating high school to know what they want to do with their life without further education?

[spark cobalt]

I think it's just learning styles. I almost require learning by doing to really get intimate growth from it. With assistance of some formal education (textbook, teacher, whatever) would definitely help I have no doubt in that.

I didn't know how to actively apply linear algebra until I started building the game I'm making RN with the physics engine

[steel kindle]

I am doing pretty much exactly what I wanted to be doing when I finished HS, so idk how it would've taken more years.

[smoky quest]

you would be surprised how a promotion, or a job or something that may happen may proper you

[smoky quest]

that feels like a loaded question

[spark cobalt]

I don't think most college graduates even know what they want to do with their life. Actually idek anyone that knows except for one person.

[steel kindle]

it could, but I think that would be pretty unaffected by me going to a different school lol

[blazing harbor]

So, how would high school graduates, without even exploring more than just the basics of other fields, know exactly what they want to do with their life?

[smoky quest]

Oh that definitely could be affected!
You may meet a special teacher or classmate that makes you discover something and blows your mind. Or connect you with the right opportunity. Or you may take a class that equips you for some future challenge

[steel kindle]

and it could very well be because I went to the school I did, so I wouldn't really consider it relevant.

[smoky quest]

What I can say though is that while a HS student doesn't know shit, they should try to maximize their opportunities. That way, they aren't limited by whatever they discover

[steel kindle]

true, but I could miss out on those opportunities by going to a different school. It's pretty random I'd say.

[smoky quest]

let's say your limitations won't be the same whether you decide to go to mit or to your local community college

[spark cobalt]

There's too many fields that even college graduates can't make such a definite resolution for their life. It ultimately ends up with what you experience in your life, some RNG, etc.

[summer roost]

I don't think most middle aged people know what they want to do with their life

[steel kindle]

but I didn't go to a local CC. I went to a pretty large well-known public school.

[summer roost]

"life is what happens while you're busy making other plans", etc

[smoky quest]

It doesn't matter. I also don't know you and cannot make specific examples tailored to your very personal experience you are experiencing yourself

[steel kindle]

What I do know is that if I went to MIT I wouldn't have graduated as early as I did, and I would not have been able to spend so much time traveling. Travelling especially has been invaluable, maybe even moreso than college was to my personal development.

[summer roost]

that "maybe" seems to be exactly what recursive is getting at

[blazing harbor]

lol there are applied classes for example, at my university, linear algebra has 3 variations (rob101, math214, math217). Rob101 is completely project based (most people use juypter notebooks with python). Math214 is traditional linear algebra, and math 217 is proof based linear algebra. Guess what? They all give the same credits. university classes aren't as rigid as you think they are

[steel kindle]

Yeah and I don't disagree with that. However it's pretty random. Maybe it would help, maybe it would hurt.

[smoky quest]

and had you been at MIT, you would be somewhat a different person with different learning and a different perspective and different connections and different opportunities

[summer roost]

I don't think it's random. We can easily say what tends to lead to the best outcomes on average, in aggregate across the whole population

[spark cobalt]

Either way, each person has their own different idea of best.

[smoky quest]

that idea of best will change in 10 years as well

[summer roost]

you're right that what's best for any given individual could be different, but it's usually wiser to bet that your life won't turn out to be the outlier...

[steel kindle]

correlation != causation though. If someone is deliberate in what they're doing, they're probably going to do ok.

[spark cobalt]

Exactly

[steel kindle]

Also not everyone desires the same outcome. My goal isn't to make as much money as I can, it's to work as little as possible while being financially stable.

[summer roost]

most people aren't deliberate in what they're doing, in my experience

[spark cobalt]

It's different life choices, I'm aware of the consequences, but also treasure the benefits of it.

[steel kindle]

and that includes most college students ime.

[smoky quest]

they wouldn't even know what to be deliberate about

[blazing harbor]

do you find that higher level mathematics is useless if you are interested in becoming a software engineer (such as analysis, abstract algebra, Combinatorics and Graph Theory)

[summer roost]

graph theory is definitely useful for a software engineer. For the others, I couldn't say - I never took them

[spark cobalt]

SWEs imo would mostly benefit from growth in logic and problem solving, not necessarily the content of abstract algebra for example

And this can be trained in other ways and not specifically those courses

[steel kindle]

^

[blazing harbor]

I think every software engineer needs a lil dose of cs research

[spark cobalt]

Why? Why is it necessary?

[blazing harbor]

obv not academia focused, but something to expand their knowledge and think about problems differently

[steel kindle]

to know what not to do

[blazing harbor]

I felt like being at the TCS (Theoretical Computer Science) group at Columbia changed the way I approached problems, esp with game theory, etc.

[summer roost]

I'll say that the overwhelming majority of software engineers I know never did any CS research. Heck, quite a lot of them didn't major in CS

[spark cobalt]

@steel kindle Idk if you said, but what would you go to college for if not CS?

[smoky quest]

I would argue it's part of the foundations of an engineer.
It's not just coding but having the foundations of compressions, encryptions, signal processing, etc. so that they are equipped to get into any sort of problems over the course of theri career

[steel kindle]

Likely statistics, maybe physics or chem.

[blazing harbor]

haha yeah that's true. I find a lot of physics/math majors do especially well in CS

[spark cobalt]

Is CS research required for that?

[smoky quest]

bro, I am not american. I don't even know what people imply by that

[blazing harbor]

it's the problem solving skills that carry, and I think CS research could be useful for that, but there are other ways to achieve the same result

[summer roost]

publishing papers in the CS field, I think is what we're talking about

[blazing harbor]

Yep

[smoky quest]

ah thanks!
Then no

[steel kindle]

exactly. it's simply one way to gain those skills.

[smoky quest]

you don't need to publish a paper to understand a topic

[summer roost]

I know a lot more professional software devs with math and physics publications than with CS publications, heh

[spark cobalt]

Lot of publications are BS too anyways

[blazing harbor]

Yeah haha! Hmm, maybe I should reword that to a lil dose of academia in general

[smoky quest]

but I wonder if @blazing harbor is trying to talk more about an analytical mind and computational thinking rather than purely doing research

[blazing harbor]

Yeah. I think university helps facilitate that through research, courses, etc

[smoky quest]

Because if so then yeah. I see way too many entry level engineers trying random changes until something looks right. Rather than trying to understand what is going on and using the scientific method

[steel kindle]

I think you also have to realize that there are certain things you lose out on by going to university. It does take up a lot of your life for 4 years.

[blazing harbor]

I think that everyone who can afford it and are in a situation to go to university should absolutely go

[spark cobalt]

For the many college students that end up like this (most college students ime), what should they have done differently in college?

[blazing harbor]

for your communicative, etc skills in the liberal arts, to build a analytical mind and computational thinking through higher level courses in math/physics/statistics or research, and to have a baseline for further graduate education if needed

[summer roost]

sure. On average, people who go to university tend to do better in life, despite that. Work fewer hours, report higher job satisfaction, get higher pay, retire earlier, etc, etc

[smoky quest]

Focus less on getting the projects done for the sake of it and more time understanding what they are doing

[steel kindle]

right, but there's also a selection bias there.

[spark cobalt]

Oo yeah a lot of CS students do that

[smoky quest]

they are allegedly adult, but they still have a lot of maturity to catch up

[steel kindle]

I am not saying college is a bad idea, I went and don't regret it. However I definitely wouldn't say everyone should do it.

[summer roost]

sure, but unless you beileve that selection bias explains the entirety of the results, "go to college" is still good advice

[steel kindle]

for a lot of people, yeah

[blazing harbor]

if you can't afford it or you have a situation that bars you from it, don't do it

[spark cobalt]

I suggest go to college too and I didn't go. It's the safest route that generally aligns with what people want

[steel kindle]

yeah it is good for most people.

[smoky quest]

you should always try to maximize your outcome. You won't know your limit without aiming high.
Maybe it's not for you and that's okay, but at least you tried

[blazing harbor]

otherwise, go for it!

[spark cobalt]

Self taught is a huge risk and lot of survivorship bias within it. It's a huge black box, hard to recommend something like it

[steel kindle]

Yeah, my goal is absolutely to maximize my outcome. That's the reason for most major decisions I make.

[blazing harbor]

Also, how does one know what they want to do in their career without taking courses that cover more than the basics in a subject area?

[steel kindle]

Maximize my outcome doesn't mean maximize career success for me though, it's more to enjoy my life.

[blazing harbor]

I don't get how people know they want to do software engineering after they graduate HS

[summer roost]

"everyone", probably not. But in terms of giving advice in this channel, we don't know individuals, and we can't really give deep personalized advice. The best advice we can give is to do the stuff that leads to the best outcomes for the largest number of people

[smoky quest]

yep and that's alright.
I know people like that. And they also are aware of the trade off and understand they won't reach the same title and compensation as others

[spark cobalt]

Why did you decide to major in CS as a high schooler?

[blazing harbor]

do you know what's my major right now? Undeclared

[spark cobalt]

Didn't you say you were doing business + CS

[steel kindle]

They won't neccesarily, but they can come extremely close and do better than many who do aim for that.

[blazing harbor]

intending to do (I got into both programs)

[smoky quest]

that's just wishful thinking

[spark cobalt]

Yes, so why?

[summer roost]

I think you're assuming that people make more of a conscious decision about how to spend their life than most people do

[blazing harbor]

it's subject areas I'm quite interested in

[steel kindle]

not really? I would say I am doing better than most new grads career wise. I think it's more about making deliberate and effective choices. That definitely means going to school for a lot, if not most people.

[spark cobalt]

Do you think it's impossible that someone finds something they enjoy before college?

[smoky quest]

I assure you it is.
The investment is like a compound interest. The more you pour, the more it will pay off.

[steel kindle]

I mean sure, but I am having the exact opposite experience.

[blazing harbor]

I think it's quite hard to make that conscious decision and live with it for 50+ years. Without having a formal degree, it makes it quite hard to pivot. Obviously, you can go back to school for a bachelors degree, but doesn't that sound non ideal?

[smoky quest]

your friends will have more projects, better projects and more responsibilities. In turns this will lead to better and more opportunities for even better projects and responsibilities, etc.

You can't have the cake and eat it too

[summer roost]

people decide on a major because it seems like something they a) don't dislike and b) think it could lead to a stable income. People pick a job based on a) it seems like they'll hire me (because my skills and aptitudes align with the role), and b) it seems like I won't dislike working for them

[smoky quest]

Are you arguing you can get the same results by investing less time and efforts and with lower projects and responsibilities?

[steel kindle]

The ones that went to MIT?

[spark cobalt]

You're also making a conscious decision that you'll have to live with for 50+ years. Why is it so bad when I do it?

[smoky quest]

it does not even matter if they went to MIT or not

[steel kindle]

I am arguing that you can get very close, with a lot less effort in many situations

[blazing harbor]

I'll have a bachelors degree lol. I could get into a MBA program or switch into accounting

[smoky quest]

my experience says otherwise

[spark cobalt]

Almost every industry needs some degree of SWEs.

[blazing harbor]

my question is how do you know you want to be a swe for 50+ yrs?

[steel kindle]

Ok, I learned far more outside of class than I did inside class. College still had a lot of value, but as far as learning what's actually helped me in my career (albiet short) it didn't provide much.

[spark cobalt]

Read what godlygeek said. Also, as mentioned before I do not intend to be coding for 50+ years

[brittle thorn]

Maybe you don't so pivot

[blazing harbor]

if you don't have a bachelors degree, how do you pivot?

[summer roost]

it's less difficult than you seem to imagine

[brittle thorn]

Get one or be excellent enough

[spark cobalt]

If you already have an established career, pivoting isn't some impossible feat

[summer roost]

pivoting from a technical high skill high pay role to another doesn't necessarily require a degree. Plenty of people do it.

[smoky quest]

okay

[blazing harbor]

Without a degree in any field?

[summer roost]

yep

[brittle thorn]

Seen it

[summer roost]

you're right that, on average, someone with a degree will have an easier time switching to a new industry than someone without one. That doesn't mean that it's an impossibility for someone without one

[blazing harbor]

mhm. I think we are getting a little into the semantics of possibility. I think general advice would be for people to go to college if they have the opportunity

[brittle thorn]

I did I was Chem major that pivot to IT

[blazing harbor]

I mean you had a degree though no?

[summer roost]

yep. Literally everyone involved in this conversation has agreed with that general advice 🙂

[brittle thorn]

And MS units

And attended MBA

[blazing harbor]

yeah so it's ofc fine

[brittle thorn]

Get the degree

Any degree

[blazing harbor]

Yeah I think I was having a conversation with Wilder on how university helps it easier to live with your decision of whatever choice of career path you choose.

[smoky quest]

it's like a cost function. The further away from CS, the most costly to switch

[spark cobalt]

I never disagreed with that.

[blazing harbor]

I mean you 1) make a better conscious decision 2) it's easier to pivot

[summer roost]

I'm not sure that (1) is true

[brittle thorn]

The conversions here haven't changed at all lmao

[smoky quest]

nope

[blazing harbor]

do we always talk about the worth of a college education?

[summer roost]

it's a very, very common topic here

[spark cobalt]

New people to this channel bring it up all the time

[blazing harbor]

I think it's a valid question, with many people on both sides

[smoky quest]

have you heard about these tiktok videos of people doing nothing all day and being paid a lot in CS?

[blazing harbor]

It's definitely very applicable esp with people promoting the bootcamps, etc as an get quick SWE job track

[summer roost]

yeah, people see YouTube and TikTok videos telling them that they can get a high paying job without uni, and then come here looking for confirmation that they're making the right call by skipping college, and really don't like being told that they're not

[spark cobalt]

We generally don't endorse bootcamps

[brittle thorn]

I tried making youtube video for our YCOMBINATOR pitch it's hard work Lmao

[blazing harbor]

yeah those are always a lil annoying bc they don't represent the general population

[spark cobalt]

I love telling them they're making the wrong call :3

[brittle thorn]

Youtube peeps make it look ez

[smoky quest]

quite a few of them got let go 👿

[coarse compass]

Hi gays

[spark cobalt]

Hey bestie...?

[blazing harbor]

I have a question: would you hire someone without a cs (or any) degree, but with 3 years of swe experience?

[coarse compass]

*guys

[summer roost]

of course

[brittle thorn]

Depends

[summer roost]

if someone has the skills necessary for the job, of course I'd hire them

now, would I hire them in preference to someone with the skills and a degree? things get trickier...

[coarse compass]

I think YouTube may be not enough but taking online courses, or finding mentor is MUCH better than what colleges can offer. Especially if you live in a small town

[spark cobalt]

Yeah lots of context will be needed to answer that.

[smoky quest]

Colleges offer so much more!
Definitely worth it!

[summer roost]

most people move for college

living in a small town is definitely no obstacle. just stop doing that, at least for a while. 🙂

[brittle thorn]

Like I got my first jobs in my university lmao and I didn't even look for it

The IT dept hired me lmao

[blazing harbor]

I mean hmm let's say you open a job application for SWE @ ___ company. If you post it online with this job market, you are getting like 500+ applications with this shitty job market . Now, you see two candidates: one graduated from a top 10 CS university with a year of SWE experience (3.8 student), and another one that didn't go to university and has 3 years of SWE experience. Let's consider everything else identical (projects, rec letters, etc)

[summer roost]

note also that you'll likely need to move anyway once you're ready to start applying for jobs. There don't tend to be many software engineering jobs in small towns, and remote jobs tend to be reserved for people with a few years of experience under their belt

[brittle thorn]

On the basis of my extracurricular projects

[blazing harbor]

I don't care where a job is 😭 tbh

[brittle thorn]

Then freelance or wfh

[blazing harbor]

I do need a little bit more money bc of my student loans tbf

[smoky quest]

go to the bay area for interesting challenges and a fast pace environment

[blazing harbor]

uh... let's just say I'm p down in the pit and would prefer $50/hr+

[summer roost]

this is a different question than your original one, though. Your original question was whether I'd hire someone without a degree. Yes, I would - almost everyone would, provided they seem to have the skills required to do the job. Now, you're asking a different question - what are the odds that the candidate who is selected has a degree vs doesn't. And you're right - candidates with degrees are more likely to be selected for interviews than ones without, all other things being equal

[brittle thorn]

Would I hire you for that ? What skills do you bring to the table?

[blazing harbor]

I can cook a fine instant ramen noodles

[brittle thorn]

Or experience

[brittle thorn]

Probably not worth that lmao

[blazing harbor]

I think my first question isn't a very good one because it's never about "would you hire someone" , but why this person over the 499 other ones? Yeah, but that's probably the case

[spark cobalt]

I'd interview them both if they're the best out of the applicant pool.

More realistically though, 500+ applicants likely scream more junior role rather than a senior role. Self taught is a huge risk that some companies might gamble if the self taught is acceptable to lower pay for example (or a contractor or something else), or if the work they'll be doing is basic simple stuff. But besides that, ATS will typically screen non college graduates out.

[blazing harbor]

no but srsly I'm p good with the cloud and stuff

[brittle thorn]

Can you ask for debt relief

[blazing harbor]

debt relief just impedes the incoming doom lol biden can't do much it's okay tho

[brittle thorn]

Lol

[blazing harbor]

to get an idea, multiply 40 by 4

[spark cobalt]

Campaign time, maybe he does something to prop up his votes

[summer roost]

right, but that's exactly the crux of the issue. On an individual basis, employers are perfectly happy to hire someone without a degree. On aggregate, people with degrees have better career mobility, because the degree is one extra positive signal acting in their favor in the eyes of hiring managers, and it makes them more likely to be selected for an interview than someone without one

[spark cobalt]

Self taught = Larger risk. You don't know what was self taught, what holes they're missing, etc.

[brittle thorn]

You gotta be fast learner

[blazing harbor]

I remember when the market accepted that risk

[spark cobalt]

In general, degree is preferred, because you can reliably know their foundation

[blazing harbor]

now it's just hard to get any job as a SWE even with a degree 😭

[spark cobalt]

Because they had to, otherwise they have no one.

I got my job end of last year with all the layoff shit going on

[blazing harbor]

I have a curious q: what happens when you wanna move companies 3-4 years down the line?

I don't think companies would give a shit like if you are 6-10 years down in your career

[spark cobalt]

4 years I'll have my stocks vested, depends on if there's a startup that peaks my interest

[blazing harbor]

Yeah that makes sense! Thank you so much for answering my stupid questions lol

[blazing harbor]

I mean let's say there is, how would you differentiate yourself in the job pool without the extra positive signal

[spark cobalt]

I also wanted to digital nomad, and my company seem pretty okay if I do that, so may stay for longer

[blazing harbor]

I mean what's even the guarantee that your company is going to exist in 4 years

[spark cobalt]

Headhunters, my network, etc.

[spark cobalt]

No guarantee. Can't even guarantee you'll have your position in FAANG with layoffs lol. Just gotta find a new job

[blazing harbor]

I don't know. I just find that scary to be competing with hundreds of other applicants, with a hole in the resume

I mean what do you even do

[spark cobalt]

I don't find it as scary. I'm in really good standing at my company, my network is pretty solid right now

[summer roost]

differentiating yourself gets easier the further along your career path you are, because people tend to develop more in depth and specialized skills and concentrations over the course of their career. There's a lot more variability in depth and breadth of skills between two 35 year old candidates than two 21 year old candidates

[spark cobalt]

I develop the CICD infra for my company.

Anything CICD related at my company, I'm 99% the person to talk to.

[blazing harbor]

Yeah, I was talking more specifically in the cases for like 19 years old like Wilder (I didn't mean to poke at him specifically), but just in general

[spark cobalt]

It's rare and it's all exceptions. Hard to generalize

[summer roost]

It's a reasonable question. I think professional networks help a lot, and I think developing greater depth and breadth of experience over the course of your career helps a lot

[smoky quest]

investment compounds.
Even going as far back as HS where you worked hard for your grades which gave you access to a better school, etc.

Even that extra class in theatre may help you with your public speaking and help you down the line

[summer roost]

there don't tend to be hundreds of applicants for more senior level roles, because senior level roles tend to require a relatively specific set of skills. I'd expect someone who has built out a CI/CD pipeline for a company and can say so on their resume to bubble pretty close to the top of the resume stack for a dev ops role at most companies. Most SWEs won't have experience in that area

[blazing harbor]

I mean to be fair, the industry doesn't need you or me or anyone. A network is helpful, but can it fill up a gap when compared to such talented applicants?

[summer roost]

yes, absolutely

an awful lot of job changes in the real world happen based on professional networks

[blazing harbor]

my dad got laid off from Stripe a year ago, and you know he worked for Microsoft for 20 years, Google for 3 years, and Roblox for a year. No one wants to hire him, and now I have to take out a loan to pay for my tuition

[spark cobalt]

I'm happy to say I've built a pretty nice network over this past year. Which is why I'm not so nervous

[spark cobalt]

What do you think he did wrong, if you think he did something wrong that is?

[summer roost]

you work with someone, they jump ship to another company, 2 years later they're looking for someone to do $X, they know that you're great at $X and so they reach out to you, and you get scheduled for an interview without needing to jump through any application process or online assessments or red tape

[blazing harbor]

he didn't do anything wrong he just got laid off

[spark cobalt]

But why does no one want to hire him?

[steel kindle]

I feel like there’s still quite a few SWE job openings

[blazing harbor]

who wants to pay $700k+ for someone who is done with his career basically

[harsh river]

he can't settle for a lesser salary but with a job?

[spark cobalt]

So his salary expectations didn't fit the current market

[blazing harbor]

would you want to go back and take a salary that you got 10 years ago?

[spark cobalt]

I mean quite a lot of SWE people keep going until they're like 70-80, I don't think it's quickly assumed that he's done with his career

[steel kindle]

No but that’s not the same as not being able to find a job lmao

[summer roost]

this year was especially rough layoffs-wise. The job market for SWEs this year has been much tighter than in previous years

[blazing harbor]

There is no one calling him in this market

[smoky quest]

better than no salary at all

[summer roost]

would I want to, of course not. Would I do it, sure - I'd rather be working for half what I make now than not working at all

[harsh river]

yes, if i wasn't finding work and couldnt find any

[blazing harbor]

He did an interview with gitlab and they were saying $100k less salary

[steel kindle]

I mean I’d only do it if I had to work

[blazing harbor]

I mean he's in his 50s now

[spark cobalt]

In 20-30 years, he's had the opportunity to positively impact hundreds of people. If no one thought to him as someone that fit perfectly for their team, what should he have done differently?

[smoky quest]

if it's one company, it's a data point. If he got the same answer from 3-5 companies, it's the market

[blazing harbor]

I mean he has gotten offers, but no one is willing to pay him even close to the salary he recieved at Stripe

[summer roost]

eh, it's not that easy. Plenty of people might have thought he was the perfect person for their team, but couldn't hire him at the rate he wanted for reasons outside of their control

[blazing harbor]

he's unnecessary in the nicest way possible

[spark cobalt]

That's fair. It just sounded like no one wanted him at all

People are so expensive >.>

[summer roost]

one possible explanation for that is that is that the rate Stripe was paying was far above the market and not sustainable - which would account for both layoffs, and why everyone else is offering so much less

[blazing harbor]

I mean he was receiving p close w/ Roblox

I think the market just completely changed unfortunately.

[harsh river]

so your dad can't settle for a lesser salary but still be employed?

[smoky quest]

I would also assume he is not just a senior software engineer

[blazing harbor]

he is more of a manager like a TPM of sorts

[harsh river]

all this time we've been thinking he's a SWE.

[summer roost]

I don't think this is a fair question. I don't think it's reasonable to ask one person to justify another person's decisions

[blazing harbor]

He worked as a swe in microsoft in the 90s for 20 years

[smoky quest]

yeah. otherwise he would be competing with people far more junior.
And then for manager/TPM he would still be competing with people far more junior

[spark cobalt]

I mean, that's what a lot of SWEs eventually go to

[harsh river]

he seems to be making the same assumptions about companies

[summer roost]

what assumptions are those?

[blazing harbor]

It's just super disheartening to see my dad who worked for almost 30-35 years in top tech company busting his ass off go almost broke... I really don't know what's happening on the other side, but I know my dad lost a lot of money on the stock market. My dad also paid $400k for UPenn tuition + $320k for CMU for my older brother. I don't know how to feel about tech anymore tbh

my dad is talking about selling his vehicles

[frozen helm]

@blazing harbor go to sleep bro 😭

[smoky quest]

First, I would suggest to appreciate the situation. It's an incredibly privileged situation comparing to the average american

[blazing harbor]

it's fall break calm down 😭

[frozen helm]

wtff i jus started fall lol

[blazing harbor]

lmao

[summer roost]

that's definitely rough, but I think some perspective would be beneficial - you mentioned $700k above, and that's ~9.5x the median US household income. You mentioned someone offered $100k less, and a salary of $600k compared to $700k is "only" a 15% cut, and is still >8x the median US household income

[blazing harbor]

I'm also going to graduate with $160k in debt if my dad doesn't find a job

[frozen helm]

ik this off topic but can someone tell my why my function wont take my input

[smoky quest]

Your dad is very well off.
I am sure he will find a way. He has gotten offers. Which means he can get more offers he wants to and is willing to lower his standard

[spark cobalt]

Your parents are top 1%ers, just saying.

[frozen helm]

bros dad couldnt pay the last 200k 😭

[spark cobalt]

Try #❓｜how-to-get-help, this channel is for careers

[frozen helm]

yeah i alr did

[blazing harbor]

I mean my dad already said no a few months ago. I think he's a lot more desperate now, so hopefully he would take anything now

once you take a pay cut, my dad told me it's hard to go back to your original compensation

[spark cobalt]

Hard to go back to COVID times for realsies

[frozen helm]

does ur dad also think u need college to succeed?

[blazing harbor]

He is a major supporter of college education lol 😭 he has a masters himself

[frozen helm]

dudes a wizard

my brothers a college ||professer||

[summer roost]

that's certainly true. But, if no one is willing to pay you the amount you're trying to charge for your services, it does strongly suggest that you're asking too much

[spark cobalt]

Also I do think it's worth to note the time he was hired at Stripe vs now. We're not in COVID anymore. 700k could be argued to be a special case, not a realistic case.

[summer roost]

and the market is way rougher now than 2 or 3 years ago

[blazing harbor]

I get that, but it probably also feels to my dad that he wasted a couple years of his life, especially since he has 5-10 years left in his career

[spark cobalt]

I do not think compensation defines your worth.

[smoky quest]

if he wants more, he should also aim higher than manager/tpm

[frozen helm]

all markets r ass rn

[summer roost]

well, I'm not a therapist. From a purely mathematical point of view, imagine that someone gets a job today at $600k, or is unemployed for a year and then gets a job 1 year later at $700k. Imagine neither person ever gets a raise, since it makes the math a bit easier: the first person will earn $3M in 5 years, the second will earn $2.8M. If he really thinks that he might only have 5 years left in his career, taking the lower paying offer has higher expected value than waiting for a long time to find a higher offer

[blazing harbor]

he has some really core decorum. microsoft used to give these plaques out when you release a product

[spark cobalt]

Also I think 100k less in compensation = He felt like he wasted couple years of his life is very depressing. I don't really think he is thinking this.

[blazing harbor]

I had a chat with him. That's exactly what he said. My dad is very transparent with me

[blazing harbor]

Yeah I see your point. I think my dad needs to get back into hard core recruiting tbh going for conferences and stuff

I don't know. I thought sending him a few texts about my recruiter meetups would motivate him

[summer roost]

the break-even point in this example is 7 years, FWIW.

[smoky quest]

what would have been the alternative then?

[blazing harbor]

How does recruiting work at like high level positions like L7+

[brittle thorn]

Your dad can attempt a startup and be a boss man . No loss in status but higher risk

[blazing harbor]

there is no capital lmao my dad is going broke

[brittle thorn]

If your dad has a great idea someone may fund it

[smoky quest]

Not much different than other levels.
Assuming you mean L7 and not M7

[blazing harbor]

yeah like L7 google (idk about the other leveling systems)

[summer roost]

look, I'm not a therapist, but if what you're saying paints an accurate picture of how he's feeling about things, it sounds like the emotional toll of being laid off is hitting him hard, and he's making irrational decisions as a result. It might be a good idea to pursue a short-term, problem-focused therapy regime. Lots of people slip into depression after getting fired and having trouble finding a new job, and your description here sounds a lot like that's what's happened

[smoky quest]

typically L is for IC and M is for management track

[blazing harbor]

ohh yeah so M7

[smoky quest]

In terms of levels, around where he is at, there are different stages:
Manage one team -> manage multiple teams -> director

So if he is still aiming for managing a team, then questions will be relevant to that and about execution, and stuff. So people, technology and process

[blazing harbor]

I just don't have a great view of the tech atmosphere. I love coding and math; it's all I've ever done for most of my life. My sister hates her job at Google, and wants to quit. My dad is pretty miserable. I'm thinking maybe this whole tech thing is just a miserable life. I'm not even sure what I would do outside of tech

[blazing harbor]

how would he meet recruiters then

[brittle thorn]

I can relate as an industry veteran I'm 48 and did Y2K remediation if I was downgraded I may feel depressed too

[spark cobalt]

That's why you're in college :), to explore

[blazing harbor]

what would you do to kinda give him a lil push

[smoky quest]

Most companies avoid third party recruiters.

So I would suggest:

• Check on indeed/linkedin
• Go to meetups
• Reach out to his network

[summer roost]

you are not the job that you do, and your self-worth shouldn't be tied up in your salary or job title

[spark cobalt]

Third party recruiters going out of trend cuz of cost?

[brittle thorn]

Tell him to network and attend meetups

[smoky quest]

they never were

But yes, why paying an extra 20% of the salary when you have thousands of applicants... Unless it's a super niche thing that is super difficult to find

[blazing harbor]

Lowkey he just sits around all day watching football nowadays. It's so weird 😭

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough.

[brittle thorn]

I survived a pituitary tumor and been there but I have different taste in media

[spark cobalt]

The last 4 years were you in high school doing your activities, going out there, getting achievements, etc. There's no way his last 4 years of life was a waste. He should see a therapist or get someone to talk about this.

[blazing harbor]

I mean he's a very career oriented man

[brittle thorn]

Covid is over go network

[summer roost]

Sounds like he needs to reorient

[spark cobalt]

His career is ending in a decade, gotta find something to do in retirement

[blazing harbor]

I feel like he's just depressed

[spark cobalt]

Retirement makes a lot of people depressed if they don't find or have anything to do.

[brittle thorn]

Your folks did fine

[spark cobalt]

Ends up numbing their brain if they don't keep it active.

Well they're doing something lol and have hobbies they work everyday to pursue

[blazing harbor]

I feel like if I pull an internship, there's no way my dad's just going to quit on himself. So, that's my plan tbh

[spark cobalt]

Wait lemme send you some pics of them, they're in Italy rn

[brittle thorn]

My dad is doing repairs around the house to keep active as a retired chemical engineer

[white relic]

I just read through the convo but your dad apparently lost a lot of money in the stock market, was laid off, and became depressed. I really don't think it's rational to lay the blame on "tech" like the same thing couldn't happen to anyone in any industry

[spark cobalt]

My dad does the same too LOL

[brittle thorn]

Lmao

[blazing harbor]

I mean why can't he get another job w/ the same comp

[white relic]

Because he was overpaid and he's expecting too much.

[spark cobalt]

Because of COVID

[brittle thorn]

Because the market has changed

[blazing harbor]

why did they just lay him off like nothing

[brittle thorn]

Nothing of that is his fault

[spark cobalt]

Part of the reason is probably because he was being paid way above what they could reasonably afford for what he's doing

[brittle thorn]

Maybe be a boss try a biz

[spark cobalt]

During COVID it was fine, because money was basically dirt cheap free.
Post-COVID got tough (inflation, high interest rates, etc.)

[summer roost]

If you think that, it's ok to suggest that to him. But you'll find that convincing another person to invest in their health, whether mental or physical, tends to be impossible. People rationalize all sorts of bad behaviors, and the status quo bias is strong. Mentally prepare yourself for the possibility that there's nothing you can do to help him unless and until he decides he needs help

[spark cobalt]

Essentially your dad got more expensive post-COVID than during COVID even when he was paid the same dollar amount

[blazing harbor]

I think my dad would never get professional help, with the east asian culture. So, if I don't do anything, I'm not sure what's going to happen. He's the smartest person I know, so it's super weird that he's going through this

[brittle thorn]

Seen it it corporations they target the expensive people to save money ..if lucky they get separation pay

[brittle thorn]

I'm asian too and emotionally damaged

[spark cobalt]

I'm sure this happened at other companies, but Micron laid off several engineers that's been there from the start of the company because they were just being paid way too much with how their pay chart works

Not that I work at Micron or anything, just heard from some connections

[brittle thorn]

Yes I know I need therapy but that might lead to lost face lmao

[summer roost]

Mental health crises are in no way correlated to intelligence. Smart people can find themselves in a bad place mentally just as easily as average people. More easily, arguably

[blazing harbor]

I recommended that my dad worked for the government, so he could work in pride with a pay cut. He seemed receptive to the idea

[brittle thorn]

My brother is government guy

Try academia too or government run uni

[blazing harbor]

I don't think my dad submitted a single job app for a government job

[blazing harbor]

yeah that's true. It's just looked down on in our culture to get professional help

[vapid jay]

Call Me [phone]

[brittle thorn]

Very very much

[blazing harbor]

I feel like I should be like "I'm going for this government recruiting event, wanna come"

too bad I'm only here for short short breaks 😭

[neat nova]

Has anyone tried this course out, if so is it worth it?

[summer roost]

I read https://wapo.st/46Oho0z recently. Might be worth a read.

[blazing harbor]

I go to U of M

[neat nova]

What’s up?

[blazing harbor]

I go to university of Michigan and the course is decent but not rlly good

[spark cobalt]

!resources We (this server) generally recommends Automating The Boring Stuff for beginners.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[summer roost]

@blazing harbor meant that link for you, but forgot to reply

[blazing harbor]

I will check this out

[neat nova]

Is it a personal thing, or a general ?

[blazing harbor]

I’d check the resources page that wilder recommended

[neat nova]

@spark cobalt review?