career-advice

[native kettle]

What is it? Never heard about it

[sleek egret]

the basic idea is that a function should do one thing and one thing only. your function does multiple things... it accepts user input, and then does something else with it

[jade birch]

send it as a snippet of code

[native kettle]

def matrix_a():
print("Enter the rows and colms of matrix a:")
while True:
rows = input("Enter the rows")
if rows.isdigit():
rows = int(rows)
break
else:
print("Enter the rows in integer:")
while True:
colns = input("Enter the columns")
if colns.isdigit():
colns = int(rows)
break
else:
print("Enter the columns in integer:")
matrix_1 = []
for i in range(rows):
row =[]
for j in range(colns):
while True:
elements = input(f"Enter the elements at position {i+1} and {j+1}")
if elements.replace('.','',1).isdigit():
elements = float(elements)
row.append(elements)
break
else:
print()
print("Enter numbers you moron!")
matrix_1.append(row)
print("Matrix A:")

for row in matrix_1:
    print(" ".join(f"{elements:.4f}" for elements in row))
return matrix_1

[sleek egret]

the most basic thing to separate is I/O and app logic. to wit, have a function that gets user input, a function to operate on that input then return a result, then another function to actually ouput the results

[native kettle]

i did about 7 functions

[true harness]

this isn't really a code help channel...

[jade birch]

^

[gilded valley]

why would you help someone who is too lazy to read the channel that explains how to help?

you add noise to the channel and encourage this kind of zero effort use. it's worse for everyone involved

[sleek egret]

I appologize for trying to help

[native kettle]

total 7 functions

[native kettle]

bro you gone?

[native kettle]

I did like this but I'm trying to say that whether it is good or not

[true harness]

you should read #❓｜how-to-get-help

[nocturne coral]

?

[true harness]

Other than coding and writing code
typing code of course!

[smoky quest]

they have to figure what to type. They have to make sure they build the right thing. They have to make sure it works

[native kettle]

: ( okay bro

[open cradle]

Keeping up to date with state of the art of memes

[nocturne coral]

Only that so if ai managed to write perfect code then it's over

[radiant moon]

Meetings. So many meetings.

[jade birch]

do you guys write up technical reports or no

[deft herald]

I make diagrams in Visio

[smoky quest]

of course

[radiant moon]

I guess not; I am not familiar with that term

[nocturne coral]

[open cradle]

In my case I am also doing maths when I am not programming

[nocturne coral]

If coding and meeting then ai can replace us. ( in 20 till 25 years)

[radiant moon]

sure! Let's all switch careers

[nocturne coral]

Can you sent me the math your doing

[smoky quest]

AI can already generate designs better than a human would.
That hasn't replaced people but it has become a useful tool

[jade birch]

if you don't mind is your job more on the data science side of programming

[nocturne coral]

It codes better than 52% of humans so it will replace us in 20 till 25 years

[open cradle]

Everything is confidential

But fields are mainly optomization and metric extraction

[open cradle]

I would not say so. It is high precission robotics (validation, metrics extraction, testing, calibration algorithms, automating processing pipelines...)

[true harness]

i would assume it codes better than 99% of humans

[jade birch]

that sounds really interesting

[nocturne coral]

Currently it's better than 52% off humans

So in 20 years its 100% not even 99%

[true harness]

so..at least 48% of humans are programmers? where are you even pulling this number from

[open cradle]

It is!

[radiant moon]

humans are 52% off? Maybe I'll get one

[jade birch]

ngl the first thing i thought of was the surgery on a grape meme

[open cradle]

Do you think all industries will ise them? Autonomous driving, surgery based robotics, medical field, aerospace... All these fields have really strict regulations. They do not even impñement AIs in many of these fields because they want more deterministic and safe prpcesses

[true harness]

that doesn't sound like all humans

[nocturne coral]

54% of ai is better than humans

[open cradle]

It could be used to apply surgery to a grape too hahahaha

[true harness]

i don't think that's what your image purports

[nocturne coral]

Then what

[fringe sphinx]

The "AI code generator" was really good at challenges that follow the algorithmic patterns of other challenges. Gotcha. Because SWEing is very similar to competitive coding.

[smoky quest]

flights landing is quite automated already.
There are some automate underground lines.
That keeps growing

[open cradle]

Ofc. Simulated challenges are likely to be Leetcode problems. But what about design? Architecture? Safety? Bugs? Managing whole projects?

[fringe sphinx]

I'm sure gpt is great at leetcode.

[true harness]

it says their 1 AI was better than 54.3% of competitive programmers

[smoky quest]

To note that AI does not mean non-deterministic

Interpretability and explainability are quite important to the field

[open cradle]

Still there is always a pilot. And depending on the weather, it might need to be disabled

[open cradle]

I think so too

[fringe sphinx]

George Carlin said it best about averages: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

[nocturne coral]

Still

[nocturne coral]

So ai is better

[smoky quest]

for now

[nocturne coral]

In 20 years it won't have bugs

[open cradle]

I am not fully aware about how these systems works, but I think they are based ln control theory. When I said AI I was thinking more about neural networks and decision making (more like deep learning)

[near ocean]

Lmao

[near ocean]

- software devs from 20 years ago

[smoky quest]

There are tons of neural networks in robotics as well.

[nocturne coral]

Ai won't make mistakes

[fringe sphinx]

Before being too confident here, I'd suggest a dose of skepticism and research: LLM's aren't thinking or "intelligent" in a classical sense of the word.

[nocturne coral]

AGI

[near ocean]

Career discussion doesnt deserve this AI doom shitposting

Take it to offtopic please

[nocturne coral]

Even you said it ai doom

[open cradle]

In my company we are using them to calibrate the robots. But we always prefer using a white box model rather than black box model. Accuracy achieved is better and you have more control aboit how the system and the algorithm works

[echo thistle]

anyone here gone through WGU for bachelors in software engineering?

[open cradle]

And the machine itself works purely with deterministic control algorithms. 0 machine learninf

[nocturne coral]

AGI will replace us

[near ocean]

We dont care, go to offtopic

[smoky quest]

I am just pointing out they do exist and are in use.
I am sure people will pick the best tool for the specific job

[nocturne coral]

I am warning you please listen

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384>

[echo thistle]

this guy thinks he some prophet

[fringe sphinx]

No, but why do you ask?

[nocturne coral]

Ok ok I will go

[echo thistle]

because im sick and tired of getting to final round interviews and then them asking "oh u dont have a bachelors"

[fringe sphinx]

Is WGU an online?

[echo thistle]

yes online self paced modules

[nocturne coral]

Who

[open cradle]

Yeah! It os just that I think people tend to see a robot and always associate it with deep learning. While many of them (specially in some fields) are applying almost the same algorithms but just with better processing power and accuracy frlm the sensors.

But ofc if you look at Boston Dynamics or Anybotics they use them for image recognition. But even for Boston Dynamics I think I read they are not using complex deep learning for walking, but more like traditional algorithms (i might be wrong here)

However, if we look more at the research field, huge progress is being done with modern AIs as you commented 🙂

[true turtle]

Since you've joined this server, you've only engaged in discussions regaarding doomeristic views about AI. Knock it off or you will be removed from the server.

[nocturne coral]

Ok so no more ai

[true turtle]

thanks!

[nocturne coral]

I am genuinely scared also your welcome

[open cradle]

Now graphic gamer fears not only AI but also Vivek

[nocturne coral]

True I love python I don't want to get banned

[oak pulsar]

I have been thinking about starting a platform which offer private coding tutoring sessions for kids in Norway. I have two decisions I need to make, and I’m not sure what the best option is. The first one is if I should have a monthly fee, where students can subscribe for each month for as long as they want to. The next options is to have different courses, like for example web development level 1, which includes 10 weeks with 1 hour each week with a one-time payment instead of a monthly fee. The next decision is to have a 1-1 or group sessions. I would like to hear what you think would be the the options. Thanks in advance!

[open cradle]

I have never used these type of services. I am the kind of person who thinks that all resources are already on the internet and you can deepen as much as you want and always on your own pace

Maybe some other people can help you more. Good luck!

[oak pulsar]

Thank you! I have been looking at someone who are offering these services, and I think that there are many people that are doing both.

[buoyant seal]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=OWIxzE2D7Xk&feature=share7

[sleek egret]

that's a great video

[nocturne coral]

That guy is saying that it will replace us and AGI is coming but that's comedy right

It won't replace us right ???

[nocturne coral]

Is that supposed to be me I know what AGI means

[sleek egret]

no, it's supposed to show you what most people who talk about AI are like

[fringe sphinx]

wow, that video just keeps delivering.

[cunning ledge]

hey anyone could guide me about freelance

[sleek egret]

just ask your questions

[cunning ledge]

what could be something good to start with i know python basics good at c and c++ and have little bit idea about web development

[fringe sphinx]

Oh wow, this guy has some great content.

[sleek egret]

that depends on your background and situation

[cunning ledge]

situation as in im rn a student so i am free from 6pm-1 am

[sleek egret]

the only freelance gigs you'll be able to get are low paying ones

[cunning ledge]

i am ok with it skill learning and experience gain is all i wish for now

[sleek egret]

such gigs are available on those freelance job sites like upwork, etc

[cunning ledge]

hmm like what gigs to be specified if you could tell me example

[sleek egret]

it's all over the map

[nocturne coral]

Can I ask you a question in DMs

[sleek egret]

from "fix this php plugin" to "build me twitter for $500"

[sleek egret]

I suppose

[cunning ledge]

woah

[pastel thunder]

now dont tell me this is common

[uncut nexus]

why not ?
fullstack dev + ML

[pastel thunder]

c++ java python ml web
what else is left, too much atleast for me, nlp is actually much difficult that simple ML, it takes 4-6 months to understand transformer lineby line

[sleek egret]

imagine how far along you'll be in another 10 or 20 years

[pastel thunder]

its for entry level.

yeah in 10 years easily possible though.

[fringe sphinx]

Don’t neglect the domain: learning an industry / vertical is also part growing your career

[sleek egret]

a critical part

[worn girder]

As someone who works with as a Salesforce admin, and somewhat of a junior dev, who’s interested in AI/ML — Where should I start to transition into FTE working with Python and it’s libraries?

[fringe sphinx]

Do you write code regularly?

[worn girder]

Not as frequently as I would like (once a sprint).

[fringe sphinx]

There’s a big difference between people who code when necessary vs those who are continually learning and coding. You want to transition, learn something new today. And tomorrow. Repeat.

You’ll find yourself instantly more marketable and able to engage in a technical interview.

[worn girder]

I get that, but I feel like Python has tons of practical uses. I’m interested in heading into AI/ML, but I want to be efficient in how learn. I was hoping that someone had recommendations for that.

[fringe sphinx]

If you’re a good programmer, maybe check out harvards cs50 for ai? https://cs50.harvard.edu/ai/2020/

[open cradle]

My skills: Python

[heavy tiger]

currently learning regular expressions and was wondering if you guys use it in your jobs or is it something you learn and never use?

[radiant moon]

I use 'em sometimes
generally when dealing with unstructured data

[fringe sphinx]

Same. Totally useful.

[radiant moon]

you should learn the basics.

[heavy tiger]

Okay thank you, just didnt want to spend alot of time for it to be useless

[sleek egret]

I use regexps all the time

[heavy tiger]

Another question is except python what are the most used languages?

and should you learn certain langues in a certain order ?

for it to be easier and what not

[radiant moon]

certain order? nah
javascript is probably the most-used; surely a simple google search will tell you

[heavy tiger]

i could but google tells you a different answer every page

thanks anyway

[fringe sphinx]

Its hard to answer general questions like those... but, you could ask us about our experience. Much easier to answer that.

[heavy tiger]

Yea whats why i wanted to ask experienced people firsthand

[fringe sphinx]

I think you'll find engineers very literal. You asked an unqualified: "what are the most used languages?", and we don't know/can't measure that across the entire world, so you're not going to get much of an answer 🙂

[delicate bane]

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

they have their different domains/use cases

[fringe sphinx]

I've always found that list suspect... or at least, not very useful.

[delicate bane]

it really isnt tbh. just a nice chart

[heavy tiger]

Yea i guess i was just wondering if there was a group that are well know for being popular amongst people eho do this for a living

[fringe sphinx]

What do you mean?

[delicate bane]

different domains, different use cases, different languages

[smoky quest]

Guido Van Rossum is pretty popular

[delicate bane]

guido +1

[heavy tiger]

Is python a good code to try and be experienced at?

Im not sure on what i path i wanna take in the coding field but in general is it a safe option to spend alot of time learning python? Sorry for the dumb questions btw just learning 🙂

[smoky quest]

if you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.

Aside from that, python is a general purpose language you could use in many settings. So it's worth learning and a great first language to learn

[heavy tiger]

Thank you, and i start uni this year so wanted to get a decent understanding of one language before it starts

[fringe sphinx]

You should also check to see what language your uni uses in their introductory programming course.

[smoky quest]

Congrats!
In the mean time, have fun and build things! There is so much to discover

[buoyant seal]

my favourite one is Interview with Senior JS Developer 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo3cL4nrGOk&t=1s

[gloomy tinsel]

hi guys

[vestal hedge]

can somebody got recently hired share their portfolio?

[indigo kindle]

Hi there!
I finished online course "python/django" and try to find a work as backend developer , but I don't have experience in commerce-projects and my programming skill is very low. Can somebody help with advice or suggestion about where I can find projects which I can try to participate in?

[vapid jay]

Is anyone hiring mid-level developers?

[gilded tangle]

Hi

I was wondering what jobs can someone have with low level python coding..I’m in a python course rn but idk what can I find afterwards

After finishing a course..what is the best option? Is it to find a job? Or is there any better course I can join?

[buoyant seal]

Data scientists are known for low python level coding, they make up for it with strong mathematical education / scientific strong background-degree 🙂
(Their code is straight terrible in average. No functions even used)

[gilded tangle]

Oh okay thank u

I’m looking to develop my coding skills..does anyone know how or what’s the best way?

[buoyant seal]

DevOps engineers aren't really known technically for their super strong programming skills too usually. They make up for it with good infrastructure knowledge / knowing stuff like AWS / Terraform / Pulumi / Monitoring systems / Linux / CI CD / Docker / Kubernetes / Databases and gazilion of other software necessary to operate infrastructure and automate it
Some DevOps engineers are strong programmers as well though, and it is required from them to make necessary solutions in a good way. Depends on a specific company job role.
In general requirements in terms of programming language (python too) are quite low for them.
Strong background in Ops and/or Backend before diving in it is highly recommendable.

[buoyant seal]

Oh, i remembered one of the most low level in terms of programming skills jobs! Being a project manager! Or just some sort of manager type that is more concentrated on this Agile/Jira stuff and communicating things / Supervising things / Negotiating stuff

[buoyant seal]

Also tecnically QA job roles are having quite low entry bar levels supposed to be in terms of programming. Their entry bar starts from being manual QA without coding at all. Automatable QA with writing e2e tests is more preferable as evolution path for them though.

[versed beacon]

Hi

Where can I find those industries that are seeking programmers and developers to work on solving and developing their business problems?

[buoyant seal]

Solving business problems sounds good, and like every first job expects you doing that ( indeed.com , linkedin and etc web sites). Developing problems sounds bad to me and not really in demand. 😅

[versed beacon]

I have worked with such companies where they primarily make money by overbilling clients and taking advantage of their employees. These companies are service-based and do not offer many opportunities for generous and hardworking individuals who aspire to make a meaningful impact

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, that’s my specialty… I develop problems for free, I charge to fix them 🙂

[gilded tangle]

Thank u for ur help

I still have room for improvement..which I will try my best to get better..

[hearty island]

so yesterday the team was like you're going to teach us power bi right... we'll give you brownies. and i was like no, but what abt a job?

one of the problem managers spoke up and was like yep that was an interview

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, I'm so happy for you!

[hearty island]

but do i want to be pigeon-holed into power bi? i wanna do project management 😦

[fringe sphinx]

Most of project management, in my experience, is reporting.

[hearty island]

so you're saying power bi is an important skill to have

[near ocean]

Its too early to be pigeonholed anywhere

[hearty island]

valid

[fringe sphinx]

100%, and that's probably true in most corporate jobs... whether you're in operations, finance, product.. the people who know how to "manage up" (report) are the ones who climb the ladder.

[hearty island]

that's good then

[hearty island]

it's so irritating to use, senior management keeps breaking the dashboard

[fringe sphinx]

I genuinely mean this: That's awesome that they're using it. I've done lots of reporting that nobody ends up using.

[hearty island]

well they haven't used it, but they keep breaking the microsoft form which in turn breaks the power bi report since the fields are named differently

i highly doubt they'll really use it

[mighty rain]

hey yall

anyone have advice for a final round interview ?? I did a take home assignment, met the team, the team reviewed my assignment, and now giving me final round ??

[near ocean]

no, you asked before and no one replied and also its against the rules here

[vapid jay]

Ok

[lapis wind]

This never changes 😅 You will be in a cycle of repairing a dashboard or fixing something because someone broke something, or they wanted an extra parameter or they didnt read the help menue

on the plus side though, you'll look like a magic wizard when you fix it

[hearty island]

but my internship ends soon, so i won't be here much longer

https://tenor.com/view/oogway-my-time-has-come-gif-8019684

[fringe sphinx]

Why not offer to work part-time over the school year? Get a few extra $$ in 🙂

[deft herald]

Study your own code. You will most likely need to defend it

[hearty island]

i already have an offer to work for another company part time during the school year and i don't wanna renege

[delicate bane]

i assume a dashboard isnt going to be used until proven otherwise. keeps the sanity in check

[fringe sphinx]

my life 😦

[delicate bane]

nice nice. always better to get exp from multiple places anyway

[hearty island]

it's the same company i interned at before tho

[delicate bane]

dashboards fall into the low value bucket for me, so if i have other projects i always prioritize those

theres that one matrix in data/other fields

low value, low effort; low value, high effort; high value, low effort; high value, high effort.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I don't necessarily mean strictly dashboards, but much of what we do in DE/DS is respond to questions... and it's often the case that the answer isn't useful.

[delicate bane]

hmm. this term is a bit buzzword-y but something similar to an analytics engineer?

[hearty island]

prompt engineer 😭

[delicate bane]

lmao someone talked about that at the cafe and i was like

[mighty rain]

has anyone ever done an assigment for a company then get ghosted smh

[delicate bane]

back when applying for internships, yes

[sleek egret]

usually that just means that they didn't want to interview you for some reason. could be how well you did, could be something completely unrelated. no real way to tell.

[open cradle]

Are you working in the QA field?

[sleek egret]

well, there's QA and then there's QA. I agree with @buoyant seal that most QA teams are pretty low-touch. but there are QA teams out there that are quite sophisticated and disciplined. I had the good fortune to work with one such team over the decades.

that said, that was just one team out of a dozen... so...

[buoyant seal]

DevOps engineer / backend

[sleek egret]

the rest were just glorified testers

[open cradle]

That' why I asked him. I never had a QA team where I worked. But I was curious to knoe about skills, stories or opinions coming from somebody who works in this field

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, similar experience… when I built my own team, I hired primarily SWE level QA engineers… but our support team doubled as testers

(Which by the way, having support participate in testing is very useful)

[weary crag]

Hello, I've started to build a portfolio website and would appreciate some feedback. Can i send the link in here or should I send it to the person who'd like to give some feedback in private?
It's not fully responsive yet and only works on bigger screens so far.

[open cradle]

People here have sent images of their CVs. I do not think there is any rule forbidding it

[weary crag]

I've just put it in the about me on discord here. Will add a custom domain later haha

[open cradle]

It looks nice and smooth. I like overall the structure and colors. As you said, fixing it to be responsive is the main complain, as I could not check your portfolio on the phone. I cannot recommend anything else. The only thing that confused me is the URL stuff. I started tapping on the image of your website thinking that it would redirect me there. Then I started tapping till I found it was that worldwide icon. Maybe it is just on me!

[teal summit]

Hello I'm new and i don't if i can ask this but i want learn python and i don't where to learn it or how to learn it effectively

And i don't have that much of money to spend here and there, I'm pretty confused, and ran over here ,sorry but can any one help me

[deft herald]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[deft herald]

Check that out. I will let you know too though that this channel is reserved for career discussion. You can ask this sort of thing in #python-discussion or for more focused help, get a help channel: #❓｜how-to-get-help

[teal summit]

Thanks and sorry

[weary crag]

Thanks appreciate it. Yea that’s a good point I should look for icons that make it more obvious.

[vapid jay]

Do you ever find meetings to be demotivational? I switching companies soon, but at my current place there's meetings where I get instructions that are so nonsensical it kinda deflates my motivation. As in my boss lacks technical understanding or insists on doing something in a way that will bring problems down the line despite warnings about it

[sleek egret]

why do you accept those instructions? ask for clarification during the meeting.

[deft herald]

Yeah. You gotta remember that communication is 2-way. This is exactly what meetings are for

[fringe sphinx]

"As in my boss lacks technical understanding or insists on doing something in a way that will bring problems down the line despite warnings about it": I've been on both sides of this. It's frustrating, as a manager who has to make a decision, to litigate every decision with every engineer. Sometimes we just need to make a tradeoff that our staff disagrees with. I've had some engineers who just refuse to compromise or hear that I understand them, but had to make a different decision.

[sleek egret]

this is why I insist that my technical staff learn about how the business works. whether they want to or not. this helps them understand the non-technical tradeoffs that often must be made.

I've found that it also allows them to formulate feasible ideas. constraints are the fertilizer for creativity.

[fringe sphinx]

But you know what I mean, right? Some folks want to litigate every decision. Or better said: re-litigate, even after it's implemented. "I said we should've done xyz the first time".

[sleek egret]

yes, but I try to avoid that by just describing goals and constraints

[vapid jay]

I managed to do that today, but it's difficult and not fun. I get treated like I'm the one in the wrong for asking for clarification of things that don't make sense. I don't know how to make it more pleasant, like especially with the non technical scrum manager the feeling I get from them is 'You're trying to create problem by seeking clarification'

[sleek egret]

I'll suggest alternative approaches, but in the end, I leave the details up to the person writing the code

[sleek egret]

some people view asking questions as argument. especially younger folks (IME). but that's not your problem, that's their problem. try prefacing your questions with, "I'm not sure I completely understand..." or something similar to reduce such feelings

most importantly, try to determine the why, which will allow you to better defend the approach you want. if you ever find yourself simply saying "XYZ is better" or "ABC is worse" you've already lost. those are opinions, not arguments for why you should choose XYZ.

either way, gotta jet. ttyl

[vapid jay]

They are pretty young, next job is older people hopefully it's different thanks for the advice I like the starting off with humility part

[fringe sphinx]

I just feel compelled to add: Also, be gracious in accepting when a decision is made that you disagree with.

[hearty island]

lol i just applied to the NSA as a project manager

meme

[glacial ingot]

I plan on studying abroad after my bachelors. What's the best time to give my GRE exam. (My entire 6th semester will consist of an internship under ideal circumstances which is approx from Feb to August)

[smoky quest]

I avoid the "I'm not sure I completely understand..." because they typically don't get the message and interpret it as you being stupid.
So I use more open ended phrasing about brainstorming together or ensuring the communication was clear

[sleek egret]

I have to disagree there. IME, asking questions tends to make people think you understand everything but what you asked about. even if you don't 🙂

[smoky quest]

I don't disagree with asking questions, just the phrasing of "not sure I completely understand"

[sleek egret]

ah. well, really it depends on the situation and the players, right?

[fringe sphinx]

I prefer the Billy Madison approach to bad manager decisions, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c

[light radish]

Hey guys in a bit of a dilemma here. I just got a job offer from another company.

Current Company
I am currently a contractor making $108,000. 3 weeks PTO, decent healthcare, no bonus. If I were to get hired which I am told could be possibly next year. My total comp would be around $190k (130k base + 30k bonus + 30k stocks) with 4 weeks PTO and good benefits (not free) . At my current company I am a backend developer, mainly working on creating API's, ETL's, database changes with tables, procedures, etc. I work with a lot of technology and there is a lot of room to learn and I am flexible with the projects I can work on.

New Company
Total comp is around $165k (125k base + 25k bonus + 10k 401k bonus), 3 weeks PTO and free healthcare (very good). The downsides of this company are they are very very strict of full time office, and the work I will be doing is mostly webscraping, creating ETL's and maintaining ETL's. There is no API development nor any logic really. They say that there is possiblity of moving to other teams, some of which are working on machine learning and AI.

I would really prefer to be full time with my current company as I like the work and they would pay more, but I don't know if or when they will hire me full time. There is a possibility it will be next year. I had a colleague in this same siutation who actually went from this same company to the new one I got the offer from. The current company didn't want to let him go so they made him a promise of an offer. He said they would hire me next year but they never gave it in writing so he left.

What would you guys do in this situation?

Wanted to add that I have not negotiated the offer from the new company, I could potentially as for a base of $5k-$10k more...

[fringe sphinx]

So current company has a better package than future company, but you don’t know if you’ll get converted to fte?

[rough elm]

Have you talked to that guy yet? I would probably try and get information on what the environment is like at the new company. It would also depend on if you want to do that etl type of work. I would let those 2 things weigh the most in my own decision.

[deft herald]

1: don't count 401k match into total comp. That's not liquid money you can use now
2: I would try to use this new offer to leverage a better position with your current company

also

doing is mostly webscraping, creating ETL's and maintaining ETL's. There is no API development nor any logic really.
This sounds like it could be an opportunity to develop an API or at least streamline some processes between teams (if the data your scraping from is internal)

[rough elm]

Also try and get the fte on paper if you dont have that yet.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I agree with the last two... leverage and fte offer seem much better. You don't sound that excited about new company.

[prime gust]

Are project managers in demand?

[light radish]

I just don't know too much about the new company. It may be a really nice place to work with lots of opportunities to learn.

I just know my current company has lots of flexibility on the projects I work on. There is also opportunity to learn other languages like C# and possibility to work on front end as well.

I am going to give my 2 weeks on Monday and see if my manager will hire me full time instead of letting me go.

I know my current company will be screwed if I leave. I am the only backend dev right now for the app I work on. Only one with the bussiness and technical knowledge of it as well.

[deft herald]

I know my current company will be screwed if I leave
Pro tip: don't ever let this affect your personal career moves. That will be their problem.

[balmy spade]

Unless you own the company, you are not irreplaceable. (and its not assured even if you do)

[light radish]

I understand where you are coming from but in this specific situation they will be screwed big time.

A similar thing happened when another backend dev left while he was working on another app. Management failed to match his offer, he left and they needed 5 devs to replace him. They still haven't recovered and app is doing really bad.

[fringe sphinx]

Before giving your 2 weeks, I'd strongly suggest inviting manager off for coffee or lunch and be honest with them. Some companies don't believe in countering post-notice: they believe the employee will leave regardless, and it's prolonging the inevitable.

You're in a better position is you explain: Hey, I really don't want to go, I've got a stronger offer/etc. If you give notice, some people perceive it as out of their hands and perhaps unpleasant.

Especially if you explain why you like the manager. I would do a lot for someone who says they like it here, they like working with me, and they appreciate what we've done for them.

[balmy spade]

I'm sure there are waves. I also agree with BillyBobby and Meltz. Don't be swayed by the company's situation (it won't care about you if/when the time comes). Talk to your immediate leadership first. You can always drop the 2 weeks in immediately after the chat if it doesn't go well.

[deft herald]

you should ask that employee that left though and see how much he cares.

I'll save you a step: he doesnt

[light radish]

I don't care either. I am saying that the company would be screwed in a way that they can't afford to lose me. Not that I care that they would be screwed.

[deft herald]

Right my point is that you should not weigh your current company's situation in whether or not you leave. If they're so screwed for one guy leaving; that's on them

And if your boss knows it; then it'll be in their best interests to get you to stay. Hence the suggestion to use the offer as leverage against your current company. You don't have to be an asshole about it though and go full on ultimatum, but you can at least start a casual conversation with your boss saying you're thinking about taking this other offer

[tough hamlet]

hey, does anyone know a website thats more of a "do at your own pace" where I could get a certificate in programming?

online courses or anything, i cant seem to find many websites that talk about this that they just copied from one another

[balmy spade]

!resources
My suggestion: Do it at your own pace and don't worry about a certificate. Get a degree if you want paper that means something to appling for jobs. Unfortunately, certificates in programming don't for the most part.

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[tough hamlet]

thank you, really im just wanting more experience and stuff on my resume and not too sure how except for either a degree or certificates

[pine sleet]

Personal projects and open source contributions are great for that sort of thing

[tough hamlet]

what are some ways of showing off great projects? i love doing projects but cant find anything thats not already made

i know about making portfolio websites and what not, but i mean what is something that is of use that will make the employer think "wow thats amazing, really impressive"

[radiant moon]

almost anything that's reasonably sophisticated and works well. It doesn't have to be original.

may I humbly submit https://teensy.info/ ... I never used that to get a job, but assume it'd be helpful

[tough hamlet]

oh a link shortner, i wouldnt think that would work since theres so many that already do that

[radiant moon]

🤷 see above under "it doesn't have to be original"

[tough hamlet]

yea, anything thats original to me really, just not a stolen word for word copy of another thing

[radiant moon]

the idea certainly wasn't original to me -- I know there are a lot out there -- but I built it myself, and learned in the process. If I were interviewing you, and you showed me something like that, I'd pay attention.

I'd not care about the idea; instead I'd care: is your code clean? Does it seem maintainable and scalable? &c &c

[tough hamlet]

https://aidevblog.vercel.app/ i have this project, its sort of a blog that I forgot about and wanted to make it a multi user blog with this backend and what not

for the blogs was just for filler ai stuff while i wanted to work on everything else. i wanted to make it a whole platform with user login and posting and stuff, thought it wouldve been a cool project but i forgot about it

[radiant moon]

well like I say: if it's clean, scalable, shows that you understand "best practices", it'd be great.
(My thing would be more impressive, e.g., if it used CI)

[tough hamlet]

i understand, thank you for the help. i was thinking of just getting certificates and having that on a resume

[pine sleet]

Yeah they don't usually mean a whole lot, you learn a bunch more from hands on experience on a project IMO

[tough hamlet]

i understand that, its just im trying to get my "first" job in programming but not much to show from it since i've had no other job in that field.

[pine sleet]

I mean, you can get some certificates if you want but as someone w/o previous experience projects, open source experience, and education are going to be your biggest selling points

As time goes on though your previous work experience will slowly overshadow all of that

[tough hamlet]

I am getting my degree in CS, thats all I have to show for it

[fringe sphinx]

There's three basic tiers of CS grad resumes: those with only a degree -- those with a degree and projects that use relevant technology -- those with a degree, projects & internships.

The third category will get prioritized over the second category over the first. Not saying "just a degree" won't get a job, just that the third category will get the best options.

[tough hamlet]

thats great, i plan to do those

[near zenith]

For being hired to make an app as a full developer with react native, what is a good price?

I’m being offered 130 bucks. They said the app is done but I would make new features and fix bugs

[summer roost]

That's not an hourly rate, right? They're offering you $130 total, to fix an unknown number of bugs and implement an unknown number of features of unknown complexity?

[near zenith]

Yep

It’s my first time doing an app commission so I need advice from here 😭

It feels low. He said 55 at beginning 55 at end

[summer roost]

That seems comically low in my market. In the US, I'd expect app developers to be paid $30/hour minimum

[near zenith]

And I’m definitely working on it more than 2 hours

[summer roost]

Right. You'd want to start by having them give you a description of the work that needs to be done, so that you can estimate how long it would take to do that work, and can then decide if the price is fair

Imagine hiring someone to mow your lawn: they're going to want to know how big your lawn is

[near zenith]

They said I have 1 month to get it set for release. They said I would do bug fixes and new festures

Or they said i could be a partner and split a share of the profits, but i have my doubts on the profits the app will make

[fringe sphinx]

In lieue of details, I just overbid... "1 million dollars" (Dr Evil voice).

[rare umbra]

Hello, is there a channel i can look for a job here?

[fringe sphinx]

Not even sure what that means: "app is done" but "app is not done"?

But godlygeek already covered the rest... it's comically low, at least for US... maybe 1-4 hours of an engineer, depending on experience. In other markets, perhaps 10-20? Not my specialty, but my concern would be making sure you got paid the "end" without clear criteria.

[gilded valley]

assuming it's a month of work, then it's 80c/hr. A week and it becomes 3.25/hr

neither is good value anywhere in the world afaik

[buoyant seal]

You know, it is comically low not even for US, it is comically low even for poor third world country I originated from
It is below junior/intern salaries.

[buoyant seal]

That is a regular scam / false promise of those people having idea. Don't ever try to take it is my advice

[buoyant seal]

I concur with godlygeek. U need to get their desired design and features

Based on amount of unique elements in design and features, it is possible to make an estimation of cost

[near zenith]

The issue is those ppl are my age, and idk if they really know how much it is.

I negotiated it, to 110 dollars for 2 weeks. but idk if thats good or not.

[buoyant seal]

It sounds to me like they are going to change requirements in the middle of a road. Thus going over originally paid sum.

[buoyant seal]

At which country?

[near zenith]

US

[buoyant seal]

Okay, u a basically doing it for free then. Ask yourself if u want doing it for free or not. / ask yourself if it is worth your time investment, are you going to learn smth from it?

If not, then go over design of web site to estimate amount of time u will need around.
Think of best time it would take u based on your feeling

Then name them time between doubled and tripled your best estimation (optionally up to quadrapled)

And propose payment according to your hourly rate of a more sane number (smth not less than 14$ per hour for example or even more like 35$ per hour and etc. Whatever fair salary for interns/juniors of your current credentials)

It would be fair if u have things verifying your worth as a specialist

---

If u don't have degree/higher education and work experience, then it is legit for them to go that cheap potentially anyway.
(As a student I did works even for single hot dog 😅 they were not taking from me more than few hours though )

[fringe sphinx]

I mean, have you ever not had requirements changed in the middle?

[near ocean]

heh experiencing this right now actually
we had a demo with product people and management to showcase a new feature's UI, we had minimal descriptions as to what it should look like or how it should behave
the entire demo people we're coming up with more requirements and changing already existing requirements

all they had to do was sit there quietly and say good job but we show them things that were exact replicas of the 1-2 mocks they gave us and they didnt like them lmao

i kind of complained to our team lead after about all of them

in hindsight we shouldn't have accepted tickets that were so poorly defined, live and learn

[buoyant seal]

for real projects? pretty much no.
this is why there are only two options to tackle this situation.

1. explaining this to person and getting payments based on hours of requested work. Anything client adds in as requirements, automatically considered into payments, since more hours is spent. (charging invoices based on amount of hours of made work)
2. having explicit contract with defined things that would be done and no more. Than when client will start changing requirements -> redirecting to contract and asking to remake a new one / and to pay according to previous contract-agreements first (based on already achieved milestone in work / % of already done work) (and when he refuses, explicitely telling that court will extract payment then)
   (U will need explicit proof what were initial requirements)
   (site like freelancer.com offers all this stuff from second option out of a box for small percentage in deal)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U there is an awesome conference that explained this stuff

should be watched by any freelancer / enterpreneur

as for working with project requirements and estimates => good start would be with learning System Design and Analysis by Alan Dennis. https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Analysis-Design-Alan-Dennis/dp/1119803780
Essentially you need learned stuff like that / just having more work experience to estimate stuff like that.
(and learning whatever further requirements gathering / experience in how much it would take you to do this stuff in front)

[unreal turtle]

Is it true, it’s good to reach out to a recruiter on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday since they’ll be less busy around those times?

[balmy spade]

That would be entirely situational.

[true harness]

60% of the time Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday would be less busy, so it's better

[balmy spade]

Where does that stat come from? I'm super curious as those days are my busiest days outside of Monday.

[true harness]

||60% of days are Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday||

[balmy spade]

calculating_thought.gif

[undone lantern]

o

[heady wyvern]

What field do I need to study/major for AI? Computer Science>Machine learning?

[celest kite]

And math. Lots and lots of math

[heady wyvern]

im going to take pre-cal

[celest kite]

Right. Well you're going to need the full calculus stack; statistics, and probably a fair bit more

[heady wyvern]

do AI careers require PHds?

[celest kite]

No

[heady wyvern]

These would be taken in college right

[celest kite]

Yeah

[unreal turtle]

If I am cold emailing my recruiter, would you recommend me cold emailing before or after the application opens up?

[radiant moon]

I'd do it ASAP

[unreal turtle]

That’s not answering the question

[radiant moon]

well, then: before

[unreal turtle]

That’s what I was thinking as well, that’s what my recruiter told me to do, and that’s what the ai said if I already have the position in mind that I wanna apply so I’m guessing before

[smoky quest]

What does it mean to apply before a position opens up?

[smoky quest]

which recruiter? The company recruiter or an independent recruiter?

[worthy wigeon]

anyone here?

I want to learn how to use py charm, someone help me out here please

[smoky quest]

Definitely!
You may want to check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[pine kraken]

Hi

Does anyone have a midjourney trial pla

[proven crest]

For any devs who have been in the industry for a long time:
The current market for developers is pretty terrible, especially in the US. Is this something that’s cyclical? Do you see it recovering or going back to a place where there are more developers than jobs, or at least towards equal? Is it mainly economic factors that led this situation? Do you think the actual state of the developer job market is somewhat blown out of proportion by lazy/unqualified applicants?

To add clarity, I’m asking this for the US market.

[patent willow]

its going to be more terrible

[fringe sphinx]

This is very cyclical. This is not the worst I’ve seen. Anecdotally, it’s rougher right now for entry level positions.

The beginning of this year saw waves of layoffs, especially by big tech. It was driven by the economic cycle, not by any sea change in software or software engineering. Small and mid tech has, for years, been unable to fill engineering positions. There’s plenty of positions, once the economic panic settles. At least, that’s my opinion.

[cinder fossil]

The sheer number of applicants also makes it harder to consider anyone

More people applying for jobs -> higher loads we have to deal with for interviews etc which slows down recruiting processes and makes it even harder for qualified candidates to get in

[fringe sphinx]

Agree: I had a entry position open for a month, got a pile of terrible resumes. I ended up hiring from a direct referral from a friend

[patent willow]

also coding isnt anything special anymore any person is able to code now its not as hard as before

[fringe sphinx]

What education grade/level are you?

[cinder fossil]

Oh man we get absurd amounts of really poor quality applicants, it's kind of a shame. And yeah, we're relying pretty heavily on referrals for this exact reason

[patent willow]

youre funny

[fringe sphinx]

I wasn’t trying to be rude, I want to know your perspective. Are you still in high school, college, junior engineer, senior engineer?

[buoyant seal]

i know right. i worked a bit onto tech interview processing of candidates for middle level positions.
most of candidates did not posses most basic skills of a developer in all categories

like... most basic stuff. most basic stuff.

[fringe sphinx]

I haven’t hired mid level in a while, but that was my experience for years: the candidates looking were the candidates you didn’t want.

The people who worked 10 years on some back office proprietary system and really don’t know anything else

[buoyant seal]

recently i got lucky though. Some cool applicant was. higher degree / medalist / hackatons
awesomely went with answers for theoretical questions in interview
mediumly went with refactoring
totally screwed up on SQL questions, started relatively good describing his normalization of tables though, so fizz buzz level passed for sure (it was hiring for backend positions)
but looking at his experience/enthusiasm/results in other sections and etc, concluded he can learn relational databases within few weeks of training (so we made offer anyway)

[cinder fossil]

this is exactly it

[pastel thunder]

how hard/long do you actually work at job?
I have recently joined and my interest and job description doesnt match quite well, i have realised i really do 1 hour per day of work, but everyone seems convinced. When ever, i try to concentrate, i remember i have to leave in couple of months anyways

[buoyant seal]

sounds like my first tech lead 😅
11 years of experience working in a single major bank company.
screwed up skills of a software dev though, terrible written code of junior like level, no unit testing
infrastructure stuff? beyond nightmare (despite him being database expert). he developed his old project fully in prod, carl! in prod server! (no any gitops / ci and etc)

[fringe sphinx]

This triggered a thought: one of the reasons I think projects and hackathons/etc are important is because it implies they’ll keep learning new stuff. We’d prefer to hire people who keep growing on their own.

[cinder fossil]

It is kind of a shame but I've found this to be the case for FAANG especially, a lot of the folks from there seem to have super deep knowledge into some specific system but not really much else. Obviously not everyone, but a significant portion of the applications we've had from them

[fringe sphinx]

We have a lot of financial institutions/ banks around here, without fail, candidates from them would be like that

[cinder fossil]

yeahh I work in finance as an infrastructure engineer and from talking to the other teams, they pretty much exclusively hire from people in other finance roles

So connections are quite important since otherwise they just won't really get the types of applicants they want

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, my other experience was hiring at big tech years ago: in-house recruiter got hundreds of applicants, but said she needed to filter them first. I never saw a single one because other managers dropped referrals on my desk.

[wheat lance]

hi guys

can anyone give me advice on how to get a internship in frontend development

and what projects should i make and how many

[unreal turtle]

Company

[peak halo]

@vapid jay asking for employment on this server is not allowed.

[vapid jay]

Oh

[celest kite]

*unless it's about the employment of coding techniques

[vapid jay]

Hey I recently learn basics of python I want to go in the field of AI can anyone guide me plz

[hearty island]

math will help with that a lot.

[vapid jay]

@hearty island can you give me a full roadmap for my better understanding

[hearty island]

i don't have a full roadmap, but there are resources in the #data-science-and-ml channel you can look at.

[hearty island]

oh a recruiter reached out to me on Indeed. first time that ever happened lol.

[vapid jay]

I want to do part time Along with studies what would be good work

[deft herald]

Internships during the summer/off semester

[hearty island]

^

[deft herald]

Other than that, any part time job that pays money

[near ocean]

I need opinions on this CV for a friend of mine
He's an Econ/DS guy, I'm not sure how good his tech skills are but he doesnt even get calls back so it doesnt matter at this point
He's looking for any sort of tech job, ideally data sciency
let me know if the screenshot isnt legible

I think the CV is pretty good, there must be other factors getting in the way of interviews

[open cradle]

Is he applying in Greece?

[near ocean]

London, UK

[open cradle]

The problem I see is that he has 1 year of relevant academic background. And that's all. Like, looking at how many computer science graduates (+ data science masers) there are, I would not be surprised if they prefer hiring people with this background, as they can also provide better programming practices. Is he applying to internships?

[gilded valley]

• The percentages for units are very underwhelming, may as well remove them
• Talk more about the timerseries stuff. Don't just namedrop arima and move on with life
• Put skills at the top
• Less about the irrelevant jobs, more about the skills
• The skills grouping feels lazy. Rename the groups (powerpoint isn't datavis, why doesn't R go under stats?)

[open cradle]

Ok, he also has some experience of we also consider the maths related background. My mistake

[gilded valley]

I think it's not a terrible CV, you just don't come out with a picture of a person with strong stats or technical skills.

I think the fact there is so much about the accounting job hurts

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, I had same impression. When I got to skills at the bottom, I was surprised.

[cinder fossil]

general question - how do folks feel about two-page CVs?

[near ocean]

I'll pass it on, good feedback

[fringe sphinx]

I'd go with a more traditional layout: goals (one liner up top), skills, experience, education. Say less. Don't need a bullet for barista. Deemphasize the irrelevant experience... let people see that they have work experience in other fields (still a plus). And, try to say something about what langauges/tech/whatever they know.

[gilded valley]

I think for a lot of people a goals statement is just noise, but here it makes a lot of sense because there's a mismatch between experience and the kinds of roles being looked at

[near ocean]

In other servers people are mentioning the lack of personal projects, is this a valid criticism?
He's not looking for a dev job

[fringe sphinx]

What's he looking for then?

Quant?

[near ocean]

in his words, "anything related to data science/econ/finance"

[fringe sphinx]

Man, he should talk to godlygeek and ruff then.

(not to solicit, but for feedback)

[dense mesa]

Not having a personal project will make it harder for finance

[near ocean]

What kind of project could I help him with
I have no idea whats relevant in this sort of industry

[fringe sphinx]

I mean, I don't want to hire someone to write code who doesn't have a single bullet showing they've ever written code. More specifically: they won't even get a callback/past the filter.

[dense mesa]

There's a lot of financial data out there, some kind of analysis on that could be good

[gilded valley]

assuming he's applying for data analyst roles, I don't think it hurts that much at all. Maybe moreso for quanty roles or true data science roles

[near ocean]

silly question but is there like a !kindlings list for DS stuff or like a set of projects usually recommended we can speed through?

[gilded valley]

no - it's basically just grabbing any random dataset and going at it.

there's so many to choose from, just pick a topic and Google.

BLS salary data for example

[dense mesa]

If it's finance I have something I've done already on the side that he could redo

[near ocean]

I'll have him check out kaggle sets and we'll figure out something quick

[dense mesa]

There's some easier kaggle competitions, getting any kind of decent rank would go a long way

It's not necessarily about doing a particular project, just showing that you're more interested than the other pile of CVs they are likely getting

[delicate bane]

eh. his competition is those with this skill set + tech skills. yknow what i mean?

[near ocean]

yea i guess

[delicate bane]

projects would help if they highlight his skills

[near ocean]

what sucks is i have no ability in this stats/maths/ds shit so i cant really help with that side of things
would getting him started on leetcode help at all, or is it wasted effort

by the end of this i should also have some decent projects lmao

[dense mesa]

If he's not grinding leetcode he should at least be doing some easies, would suck to not go further in an interview otherwise

[delicate bane]

this ^

at least thats the impression the resume gives if that makes sense

[near ocean]

ok so,

• CV fix up (drop grades, cut irrelevant exp,talk about msc project)
• kaggle competitions
• leetcode easy
• make and populate GH with kaggle stuff
  did I miss anything?

[dense mesa]

Agreed with everything, make a GitHub asap and get something decent on there. Notebooks for analysis are good, can give interviewers an idea of his coding/data analysis style

Not sure how much time should be invested into LC if he's definitely not going for dev roles, but at least a few hours to understand basic data structures and algorithms would be essential (if this wasn't picked up in the MSc)

[dawn leaf]

This resume would not get past resume screen for DS role. There is just very minimal evidence of DS skills. Either they need to do an impressive project (not random kaggle datasets), or they need to start applying for data analyst roles

Unfortunately DS is not really an entry level role and this is very much an entry level resume

[delicate bane]

yep yep

[dense mesa]

Yeah I was thinking it's suitable for a data analyst role, there's probably not enough time to do a big project (even if it would help a lot), so getting in entry level is the best way

[near ocean]

I'll have him do the daily leetcode puzzle, or at least an easy every day

[dawn leaf]

Yeah they just need to get real on the job experience

If they wanted a chance at DS they would have needed strong internship experience

[dense mesa]

Cracking the Coding Interview is a good supplement for that

[near ocean]

I forgot to share the kind of job ad he's usually applying to btw, not that it changes anything I dont think but here it is
https://giveagradago.com/graduate-jobs/junior-data-scientist/909/

[dense mesa]

May be tricky but worth applying if they don't blacklist

[dawn leaf]

I'm not trying to be negative here but, comparing that job description to the resume

"Develop new methods to identify sensitive data using NLP" - No NLP experience or ML model development experience

"Work on projects to analyse and improve existing models" - Never improved on a model, just applied arima out of the box

"Develop and build new tools to help people secure their data" - No evidence of engineering experience, ability to build tools

"Experience in C++, Java or Python" - No evidence of this

"A passion for data science and turning concepts into products" - No evidence of this, never worked on a product

[open cradle]

What about internships?

[dawn leaf]

Internships are for students, so yes they could probably get an internship

[open cradle]

Not always. I have done 2 internships after my master's. I also switched my main field and those internships were what I needed to get some experience or related skills

[dawn leaf]

Sure but my point is that internships are targeted at people with no experience, so that should be less of a barrier

[sinful steppe]

How to secure a well paying job?

[near ocean]

might just be me but you cant convince me a 30k/year job needs proven experience

[dawn leaf]

then let me know when they get that job

[near ocean]

yea employers have the power right now but maybe they need to get their heads out of their asses?

[dense mesa]

1. Find industries and roles you like that also pay a lot
2. Look at resources on how to get into those
3. Do those things

[dawn leaf]

imo an internship is the EXPECTATION from new grads

[open cradle]

It is the "price" to pay when you do not have something good enough that supports your skills. When I was doing my internship, I was barely getting money. Some months I was even losing. But without that it would have been impossible for me

[dense mesa]

It's because their supply of applicants with these things is going to be huge

[open cradle]

But I switched my main field and I only had 1 year academic background from the new field and that's all. Same case as your friend

[dense mesa]

A few of my friends went into recruiting for different industries and levels of experience, grad roles in London get hundreds of applications for even lesser known companies

[sinful steppe]

How do I choose one

[dense mesa]

Look at the ones that have career progression you like and pick whatever is appealing

[sinful steppe]

Where do I look for?

[dense mesa]

?

[sinful steppe]

Do u happen to know any websites where can i find the info that u specified?

[gilded valley]

for desirable jobs yes, but jobs paying 30k out of university aren't particularly desirable.

this guy could land that job, or one like it

[open cradle]

In stack overflow, every year they do a survey for developers and programmers that has many metrics about salaries, languages... Etc

Otherwise: Google

[dense mesa]

What websites have you found so far?

[late flame]

Not if you had good internships in school. It's going to differ from program to program.

[delicate bane]

honestly its probs more bc his competition is tough. ah anz beat me

[sinful steppe]

None I am new

[gilded valley]

30-35k in London is barely beating CoL

[fringe sphinx]

That's like, one curry a day I think. (my attempt at understanding london culture)

[dense mesa]

Pretty weird thing to say

[gilded valley]

tbf, I have eaten curry twice this week

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, overexplanation: everytime I'm in london, it's always indian takeaway. So, I'm saying, taht's enough pay for one takeaway a day.

[gilded valley]

Indian is the goto British "easy" choice for food - no one dislikes it, and beer drinkers love it

I think literally half of all work dinners I've had have been at Indian restaurants

[radiant moon]

the equivalent for me in Seattle is Thai
ubiquitous, everyone likes it

[gilded valley]

interesting. there's too many picky British people for Thai to fly here

[fringe sphinx]

appropos of nothing, I had the best sandwich of my life in broadway market last year. I need to go back, just for the sandwich.

To bring it back to topic: get a job in another country, even if work sucks, the food will be interesting.

[gilded valley]

London has tonnes of interesting food - you just need to not be with a bunch of picky British bastards.

But 100%, I think the UK has a lot going against it at the moment

[fringe sphinx]

Against? Job wise or otherwise?

[gilded valley]

Jobs wise - London still has a lot going for it wrt culture etc. But in terms of jobs, London salaries aren't increasing in-line with rents, the tech scene isn't growing, Brexit is going to carry on hurting finance - so prospects for economic growth, and in turn job prospects, are poor

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, not going to lie, I really hate working with UK startups... something about the engineering culture has rubbed me the wrong way.

(admittedly, a small sample size, but it's been a pattern for me)

[vapid jay]

python
Hey, I'm really interested in learning AI and I was wondering if you could help me out. I just finished a basic course on Python and I want to know what to do next. Do you have any recommendations for books, courses, or projects that I can use to learn more? I'm looking for something that is not too hard but also not too easy. I appreciate any advice you can give me. Thanks!

[fringe sphinx]

I don't know it firsthand, but CS50 for AI was recommended a few days ago. https://cs50.harvard.edu/ai/2020/

It might be a bit advanced if you've only done a basic course in python... usually you'd want a little more practice with coding... and for that, see:

!kindling

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[near ocean]

Alright, I gave him most of the feedback on his CV, got him onto github, kaggle and leetcode, gave him a shit ton of homework for the weekend, we're both gonna make it bros 💪

[dreamy spade]

I’m looking for advice. I’m left with a project that was developed and incomplete by a previous software developer employee at my company. They wrote over 6000 lines of code. There’s py files in different folders. It’s overwhelming and I’m not sure where to pick up where they left off.

[fringe sphinx]

Keezy, I wish/hope you are blogging this. Been following it intently.

ime, unmaintained code usually gets thrown away.

[true harness]

or it gets used for decades

[delicate bane]

one or the other. sounds about right

[true harness]

what sort of advice are you looking for?

[delicate bane]

you said the project was incomplete. so its not being used? i would work backwards from business needs

chances you need all 6000 lines are very slim

[dreamy spade]

I’ve been told that it was working in the testing phases but the program hasn’t been used for several months so it needed to be updated.

[fringe sphinx]

Can you tell us anything about the stack? Just curious what technologies are involved.

[dreamy spade]

MySQL, Python and HTML. For some reason the previous programmer converted Python code into HTML files.

Like they made a folder called exportToHTML and I see files like generate_functions.py.html

[true harness]

interesting. i guess they rigged their own templating engine

[pine sleet]

odd

[dreamy spade]

They didn’t use pydantic models 😦

[pine sleet]

What framework were they using?

[delicate bane]

this honestly sounds like a pain. im sorry you have to tackle this

[dreamy spade]

This is not a web application. This is an automation project where you fetch data from one website , insert it into a database and retrieve data from that database and put it on another website and it’s suppose to automate. That is the goal of the software.

I see that they added cron jobs on the program

This is why I don’t get why they made HTML files of Python code.

Ahh. I see. I guess it’s for documentation.

[true harness]

what sort of career advice are you looking for? technical help might be better in a different channel

[dreamy spade]

I wanted to know where can I pick up where the previous programmer left off

[true harness]

i'm not sure if that's possible for us to answer

[deft herald]

Yeah these are the kinds of questions you need to ask your mentor/boss/team mates. Not us

[dreamy spade]

I’m the only software developer

[delicate bane]

yeah or even one of the off-topic channels https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/463035268514185226

[deft herald]

Why don't you open a help channel. You can ping me if you want

[dreamy spade]

For the project? I’m not sure if I am allowed. It’s my company’s property.

[severe flower]

Hello, I don't know if this is the right place, but I want to ask about presenting my projects to future employers. I have several projects that consist mainly of console programs and some of them use a database. Do you think it would be a good idea for me to make my own Python based site to showcase the projects? OR it's completely redundant because I'm not looking for web work and I'm better off just using a github link. For information, I am a 20-year-old student and so far I have only had 1 internship of 3 months, I have no other professional experience.

Could you please give me your opinion if it is worth it for me to present the projects and myself through my own site even if I am not interested in web development.
PS: sorry if this is not in the right place. I will delete the message if necessary.

[deft herald]

I wouldn't, unless you want another project to add to your resume

I would focus on concise descriptions of the projects on your resume and you can add a github link if you really want to

[deft herald]

In that case, why are you asking here about it?

[pine sleet]

If you can't show your code and you're the only software developer I'm afraid you'll probably have to figure it out on your own

[severe flower]

@deft herald Thanks!

[dreamy spade]

I’m just wondering if anybody else was in the same predicament as me and what they did about it.

[deft herald]

I see. Yeah a lot of times you're just kind of stuck figuring stuff out on your own. You can try reading through all the code, running it yourself, running in a debugger to step through and see what it's doing, read the generated docs, etc

IME web scrapers are very difficult to maintain and to run reliably, so maybe you can explore more direct options of gathering the data. Is the website you're scraping from an internal website?

[dreamy spade]

Yeah it’s pretty much internal because it’s a site where you log in, create projects, and fetch the information of projects with an API so you collect the json data of them.

[deft herald]

Oh so it's not a scraper then

[true harness]

i thought it wasn't a web app

[dreamy spade]

It’s not?

It’s not a website.

[summer roost]

I don't think there's any general advice we can give here. You'll need to gather requirements, analyze the existing codebase and documentation, determine which requirements the existing system does and doesn't meet, and then decide whether extending the existing codebase or starting from scratch will give better return on investment. 6k lines is a pretty small codebase, so I'd think it wouldn't take too long to get up to speed with it.

[nocturne coral]

Can you tell me what is the difference between computer science that is under arts and science and computer science under science and just normal computer science that isn't under anything

[summer roost]

are we talking about Bachelor of Arts vs Bachelor of Science, or are we talking about whether the university puts Computer Science into its college of arts or its college of arts and sciences or its college of engineering, etc?

[nocturne coral]

University puts CS ( not bachelor)

[summer roost]

it makes little to no difference. Within the span of about 5 years, the Computer Science department at the university I attended moved from being part of the college of arts and sciences to the college of engineering and back. All the professors stayed the same, all the courses stayed the same, all that really changed was the dean and other higher ups

[deft herald]

Yeah, it's like when your company sends a reorg email with a bunch of names you've never heard of and your job stays exactly the same

[summer roost]

in theory, it might tell you something about how the university views CS... maybe.

[nocturne coral]

It's like software developer and software engineer no difference

[deft herald]

If anything, different "college of X" within your univeristy might have different core requirements. LIke "you need 1 foreign language" vs "you need to take chemistry II"

[dense mesa]

@summer roost random question but careers related: have you worked on the stuff that handles FIX messages and stuff for brokering to venues?

[summer roost]

a little bit

[dense mesa]

Fair enough, some of these bridges for services seem decades old. Was wondering if bbg was considering upgrading in the near future

[summer roost]

oh, I've never worked in that area at my current company. I worked on an order management system for a previous company, but never needed to make many changes to the FIX parts of the codebase

beyond getting reasonably good at recognizing FIX field ids in logs...

[dense mesa]

Yeah the docs are pretty lacking in some areas, next thing you know a venue is sending thousands of logs back for seemingly no reason

[dense mesa]

Hopefully not CRD 😳

[summer roost]

Vanguard, actually. I didn't work directly for them, but I was a contractor brought in to help migrate that OMS from Solaris to Linux about a decade back

[dreamy spade]

Thanks for the tip. Also for context, 68.7% of the project is written in HTML.

[dense mesa]

Fair enough, I heard Vanguard could be a bit of an old boys club for front office, tech was chill apparently?

[nocturne coral]

What about difference in bachelor between the 2

[near ocean]

which 2

[nocturne coral]

Cs in arts and science and CS in science

[summer roost]

bachelor of arts vs bachelor of science? Mostly what other courses you'd need to take, outside of the computer science one. A BA degree will have more language courses, communication, arts, etc. A BS degree will have more science requirements, and possibly more math requirements.

[summer roost]

so only 2k lines of Python code, and 4k lines of HTML? That's next to no code, honestly.

it shouldn't take you too long to read through all that code and get a feeling for its structure, at least, even if it takes a bit longer to figure out the details.

[nocturne coral]

Bachelor is different but the collge it's self is the same

[summer roost]

is that a question, or a statement? Either way, I'm not sure what you're trying to say/ask

[open cradle]

Now this raised my curiosity. Is 6.000 lines a lot for a project? I know that numbers can change a lot tho

[fleet reef]

How complex is the project?

Line count really doesn’t tell you anything on its own

[summer roost]

6k lines is certainly not a large amount of code. Yes, it depends on the project, but most real world projects will be bigger than that.

as a for-instance, the Windows calculator apparently has 35k lines of code. https://github.com/Microsoft/calculator. The largest single file in it is 1.5k lines of code, for one part of its test suite: https://github.com/microsoft/calculator/blob/main/src/CalculatorUnitTests/CopyPasteManagerTest.cpp

[nocturne coral]

Both

[summer roost]

ok. Well, I'm still not sure what you're trying to say/ask

[celest kite]

Clearly both.

[nocturne coral]

I am saying that the bachelor of them is different but the collges themselves are the same it's a statement and same time a question like a confirmation to make sure that I understood so is it 👍 or 👎

[summer roost]

a bachelor of arts will require different classes than a bachelor of science. The school within a university that the department of computer science is part of does not make much, if any, difference to the classes that are required.

[celest kite]

My specific CS decree was a BS. And it was approximately 2 classes short of a degree in straight math

[summer roost]

mine was a BS as well. IIRC, at worst it was 2 classes short of a math minor, and depending on what tracks/modules/concentrations you took, you could qualify for the math minor by just completing the CS degree

[celest kite]

Yep. And basically I would have gotten the math degree if they hadn't made math a BA so that people had to take another year of credits to get

[pine sleet]

Our uni has a high impact course you're supposed to take your 4th year, that can be a minor, an internship, study abroad, etc
Apparently a lot of engineering students simply just go for a math minor since they have most of the credits necessary for one anyway from engineering courses
just an interesting fact i learned :p

[peak halo]

my program was one course short of a math minor

[fringe sphinx]

The simple way to understand it is: an undergrad degree is simply a set of course requirements. The only difference between a ba in cs and a bs in cs, within a school, is the course requirements. It doesn’t really mean much beyond just figuring out what classes you must take. Take a look at the degree requirements or curriculum map to understand the specifics. Even a bs in cs at two different universities can be drastically different: some U’s require more humanities than others (for instance).

[nocturne coral]

The bachelor is only different

Other than that there is no difference

[fringe sphinx]

Aren’t they all bachelors?

[nocturne coral]

No before bachelor

The ones under arts and science and ones under science only the undergrad

[jovial ridge]

Im freshmen highschool in indonesia and im wondering to the answer to this question

1. What are the subject that i should focus on studying in highschool to be ready for computer science/Informatics In college/uni

2. What jobs are there available for IT, Computer scientist, And informatics? What are their differences on jobs? Why do i see backend and frontend jobs Having to have either computer science Degree or informatics degree, what's the difference?

3. What are the expected payment for freshmen graduate Of IT, Computer science and informatics student?

Would be glad if an indonesian answer this since the jobs situation are different

[tough hamlet]

should i continue doing these or do these just fashion points? im not sure if they actually matter or are just there for looks. its the hackerrank skill certification things

[smoky quest]

these are fashion points.
If you enjoy them, then why stopping?

[tough hamlet]

i do enjoy, i was just wondering if there was actually any true/big value

[pine sleet]

not really

but I doubt it can hurt your chances
if you enjoy them and you've got the time there's nothing wrong with doing more of them
after all, it's practice and that can only be good

[smoky quest]

doesn't mean anything and I wouldn't count on it.
You could also look at it as correlation vs causation. These topics may not have any value in themselves, but they may have forced you to review some subject or make some projects, which can be valuable later

[lavish light]

where was the where to learn python list?

[smoky quest]

Hi! #❓｜how-to-get-help would probably be bettter

[lavish light]

no like where was the list with resources

[smoky quest]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[smoky quest]

that one @lavish light ^ ?

[lavish light]

thanks man

[pulsar drum]

Look up universities you think you'll apply to and see which courses are required for the degree in question. That should give you an idea of the differences between the degrees and what you can prepare for in high school. You probably want to take at least calculus in HS.

[jovial ridge]

I know that i have to take "advanced Math" class to get in, For IT, Informatics and Computer science needs just that.

[fading oak]

hi

[pastel thunder]

in backend at my new job,
I am learning and will use:
Java
mongdb
Springboot
maven, ant, gradle

will these be good, easily transferable when i go for next job.

[smoky quest]

they are transferable as long as you keep the optics of backend and not paint yourself in a corner in specific tools

That said, java is so big and popular that it would still work out anyway

[pastel thunder]

You mean keep learning newer things?

[smoky quest]

that will be a constant regardless of the job

But my point was more about keeping your angle about "backend" than "java"

[pastel thunder]

i dont know whats happening😂
I am a mechanical engineer by degree,
did 3 years of research and minor degree to get a job in ML.
Did research in IoT
And now my job doesnt match job description and i am doing Backend.

[smoky quest]

welcome to adulthood where life stops being on well laid out tracks

on the bright side, it means you can be whoever you want to be

[warm inlet]

Question: I would consider myself still a python newbie.

I do know pretty much all the general functionality of python etc. But my skills lack in the practical part.

I did a few side projects/tutorial stuff but I always find myself having to google specific problems/sometimes correct syntax.

I recently had an interview which I failed miserably. OpenCV and json related questions.
I was not really familiar with those and did not know that they would ask something like that.
I was expecting more "general" python questions.

I guess my question is how can I prepare properly for such questions? Are there specific projects I can try to do/follow?

The interview was a live-coding one where I was not allowed to look anything up

[worn glade]

Hello, I don't know if this is the right place, but I want to ask for carrier guidance.
A 10 year experience progrramer with good knowledge in python, django, DRF, fastapi, docker, k8s, AWS services (ECS, lambda, rds), Kafka.
Q1 - What you suggest to learn further.
Q2 - As per experience and knowledge, which companies i can join?

[worn glade]

you mean comapnies not hiring you as a AI/ML anymore?

[pastel thunder]

i was hired for Data Science, but i have been told i will work in back end dept🥹

[worn glade]

so you can switch the company 😄

[pastel thunder]

yup, trying

[vestal hedge]

Anybody here uses flutter for front end?

[open cradle]

Well it all depends on the field you are applying to. But if it says that OpenCV skills are required, I would be expecting that these are checked during the interview.

About this stuff, questions are typically generic that will ensure you have a solid background. In my opinion, it is important to learn them in a solid and structured way (courses, videos, books) and not only by doing projects and searching only when you have a problem, as you might be missing so many core concepts that they would typically ask in an interview. Of course after that, practice makes you better. But I have no idea what I can recommend in these fields

And about how data (results, configs...) can be stored in a human readable way (UTF), there are mainly JSON and YAML. I consider them to be important in Python development, so make sure you do not skip some other important concepts!

[fringe sphinx]

The generic answer is - Q1: Learn anything you don't already know, and don't stop. There's so many paths you can choose. Q2: Which companies - lots of companies use these technologies, the problem is getting to the first interview - Invest time working on networking (talking to people) and prior co-workers, you're more likely to get a job lead that way than blasting an email via LinkedIn.

[fringe sphinx]

The specific answer is: If you want to develop your "portfolio" as a mid-level engineer, there's a few ways. Contribute to an open source project, especially one that you've used professionally or related to your experience. For me, this is a good indicator of someone who's genuinely interested in the field. - Attend (virtually/youtube) conferences like EuroPython: this will broaden your knowledge of current topics in this field and help you interview better. - Dabble with ML/AI... doesn't matter what, but the barrier to entry is really low: do a simple opencv, pytorch, tensorflow, llm, whatever-type project. Every engineering organization is interested in this stuff, and it at least shows that you're current in your chosen profession.

[buoyant seal]

Q1) Learning not a python language 😆 (and not interpreted language)

Golang nicely contributes backend and infrastructure stuff (cool to write lambdas), give it a first go 😉
optionally Java/Rust stuff to explore. Rust has WASM frameworks / Java is popular static typed backend choice and can be used to make minecraft mods

[little dove]

I am curious, can anyone enlighten me to as what kind of realistic job opportunities lay ahead of me given I am soon to be getting an associates of applied science in pentesting, specific to python to though. I will have taken a 101 intro class and a hacking with python class. I would like to further my programming skills and not just get into pentesting. What should I consider to keep myself moving on the learning curve with python? get right into writing my own scripts? that could be obvious, but what more? Should I keep taking python classes, labs, code camps, intern, self teach off youtube according to my interests? I know that I want to do pentesting and ethical hacking, but I want a strong programming skillset. Thanks for the insight and food for thought.

[buoyant seal]

also, considering you are 10 years experienced dev, i will still voice obvious things just in case:

• Learning git if u did not learn it (shocking, but some devs did not do it in 10 years, right). especially Git CLI to the full extension. https://learngitbranching.js.org/ / going over Git Pro book (https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2)
• you named rds, but i still will name just in case Postgresql as the most popular relational database choice. if u for some reason missed learning its in depth, learning how to use Explain, what are index types exist there, transactions and their levels and etc. Can be good idea to learn
• You could be wishing to learn using Elastic Search, very popular choice to use to augment relational database functionality / or also used as part of logging stack in ELK
• You could explore learning to setup and to use monitoring/tracing/logging solution, at least one popular open source solution through your project. it heavily improves staging/prod debugging experience (recently found this curious aggregator of different open source monitoring solutions, could be curious to try https://coroot.com/ )
  • i am using at work datadog, and can't imagine working without similar functionality provided at least by smth in a serious project

definitely looks like having tracing as part of it, besides all other bells and whistles

[fading shore]

Hey, Is there a discussion for gig work?

[near ocean]

depends on the kind of discussion youre looking for, we dont do recruiting here

[buoyant seal]

Q1: btw, you mention all the python stuff, but i will still mention, that if not used

• pytest/factory-boy(to boilerplate sql objects creations)/pytest-django (to asset number of SQL queries). It can be good idea to try
• also if u still never used mypy/pyright, you could try to dive into it. It could benefit learning smth like golang first though, it will make far more sense then how to operate with mypy in a strict configuration: https://careers.wolt.com/en/blog/tech/professional-grade-mypy-configuration

[hearty island]

what the fuck is this

another scam

[buoyant seal]

yeah, highly likely. then they will start asking to buy smth during work start
job scamming became a thing too :/

[hearty island]

please god let me pass the CAPM and actually apply to quality jobs

[thorny wind]

Hello everybody

[dim musk]

Hi guys I recently start my python journey and I just wanna ask like whats the best way to learn python ? And after how much time you guys manage to get a job ?

[radiant moon]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[open cradle]

The time it takes is relative. It depends on your academic background, your projects, how comfortable you feel while coding, how long you spend per day, if programming is a suitable task for you, your country, the field you want to work with...
As you can imagine it is not easy to give you a number

[dim musk]

I m studying like 2 hours a day . I start the google course

[fringe sphinx]

Agree with mflova: some people watch YouTube tutorials, other people follow web books, others follow free online structured class/course, and others just tinker with Python and experiment from the beginning.

[dim musk]

I m learning the fundamentels now and after I finish I will start working on some projects and everything that I can help me learning

I was just curios like how pple with more experience then me are doing it . Like how much time it took them , after how much time they got a job and what they help them the most in learning process

I m leaving in UK atm

[radiant moon]

I knew a pile of other languages when I learned python. I found https://github.com/gregmalcolm/python_koans helpful

[dim musk]

I study the google course atm . Its a new course from google focusing on python

Really appreciate guys . Really happy that I found this server to talk with more experience pple

[fringe sphinx]

Good luck! And just as a warning: you might feel ‘lost’ or confused for a while. If you’ve never programmed, you may be overwhelmed at first. Don’t give up, it gets easier after you do a few projects. If you get stuck, ask in #python-discussion

[dim musk]

Thank you so much ! ❤️

I will ask for sure . Thank you for the warning . It does feels overwhelmed sometimes but nothing that is beatifull its izi

I really wanna learn it and work in this field

with python

Doing the course and keep pushing + the community where you can ask question its 100% possible

[fringe sphinx]

Absolutely. You might want to do multiple courses too, sometimes it makes more sense the second time.

[dim musk]

Yea I will finish this one with google and after that I will do a udemy course if I need to . If I feel I have learn eveything from this course I will work on projects . I feel like you learn to code by doing code and practice

[fringe sphinx]

!kindling has some great project ideas; when you’re ready!

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[dim musk]

Thank you so much ! ❤️

Beautifull pple here ^^

[vapid jay]

i made a tutorial on how to make website like chatgpt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuREI_WLbSs

[true harness]

🤨

[peak halo]

@vapid jay this server is not for self-promotion. also, please be sure that your messages are relevant to the respective channel topics (the descriptions tell you the topic).

[near jewel]

how do i break a for loop?

wait wrong chat lol

[rapid loom]

Hello guys,
For final diploma project I want to do an algorithm in Python related to Automotive, is anyone here with some resources or ideas about that?

[humble kelp]

Heyo, so I'm asking on behalf of my partner on what she should do in the below situation!

So my partner has recently finished her undergrad in economics and she picked up SQL and quite liked it. I also suggested her to learn python so she can use libraries like pandas or something (not sure if that'll be useful from an economics standpoint).

Can I get some suggestions on what she should learn and get a stable job in this market?
She has a leaning towards Analyst roles

[rough elm]

I came from a financial math edu and I suggest something data engineering related

It has you do a lot of data gathering and cleaning to actually use in an analytics type of way

[smoky quest]

yeah, data analytics and science sound like reasonable next steps

[gilded valley]

focus more on the practical side of analytics - even more SQL, basic stats, data wrangling, data visualisation - rather than any advanced ML type stuff

(Assuming analyst here means data analyst rather than investment banking or whatever)

[slate carbon]

hey does anyone knew...any website or a way to sell ml,dl projects???

[buoyant seal]

Kaggle.com

[slate carbon]

any other than that??

[buoyant seal]

Indeed.com, place to sell them for getting a job

[slate carbon]

yepp...thank you for ur infoo!!!

[full siren]

We have learned and will cover again the java gui development with swings library at university. Would it be a waste of time for me to learn python gui development on my own? Should i just stick with java gui dev. instead?

[dense mesa]

You could come up with your own algorithm for autotuning a PID controller for some kind of engine

[upper cave]

how do you know if programming is a career for you?

kinda feel like giving up tbh

[true harness]

internships are a great way to do that

[fringe sphinx]

Where are you in your journey?

[upper cave]

Well, I started taking classes for an associates for a job, but we’re doing a lot of stuff I just don’t really seem very good at it

like, the tech stuff in general really, like the hardware and stuff. I really don’t remember any of that now

[fringe sphinx]

No idea about whether it's right for you... most people struggle when they're first learning, because it's all foreign. Once you get a few projects under your belt, things will come together. But, you do have to stick with it long enough to see the results: it's not going to come together in a week or two (I don't know what's typical, but if you just started, give it some time to see if you like it)

[upper cave]

OK, thanks, that makes sense, maybe I’m just getting discouraged too quickly

[fringe sphinx]

If you hang out here / py-general, you'll see a lot of people who ask / express the same thing... it's very common to feel overwhelmed/discouraged/imposter syndrome/etc. It's like moving to a foreign country where nobody speaks your language... you'll feel out of place until you learn enough of customs and language.

[full siren]

Can someone check this?

[near ocean]

if you expect to remember things by attending classes and nothing else youre going to be disappointed
classes are there to give you a small glimpse of whats available, its up to you to study in your own time and practice

[patent willow]

it would be a waste of time

[true harness]

it would?

[near ocean]

i dont think learning things is a waste of time

[radiant moon]

Hard to answer.

If you like doing GUI stuff in general, then sure, learn Python's way of doing it.

If you don't, though, and have lots of other stuff you could be learning, then maybe not; I doubt much Python gui code gets written in the Real World®

[patent willow]

it wont if he got nothing else to do

[near ocean]

It wont what, when you answer a question it'd be nice to explain why your answer is what it is instead of saying "no dont do it"
Are we supposed to trust you, a stranger on the internet if you dont give context?

[fringe sphinx]

It’s also a contextless question too, one of those unanswerable things. Nothings a complete waste of time to learn, but perhaps there are higher value things to learn instead. (Although, tbh learning swing is pretty high in my ‘useless things to learn’)

[full siren]

Hmm, I see you guys' point

[full siren]

why do you consider swing to be useless ?

[near ocean]

Because its legacy, javafx is more modern

[full siren]

I see

[near ocean]

Swing was legacy when i was still in uni 7 years ago

[full siren]

wow

By the way, thanks guys for your precious opinions 🙏

[near ocean]

My first job had me do python gui with tkinter actually, so its not really the most useless thing to learn
Definitely dont learn it hoping to find a job with it

[open cradle]

After a few days I was using this tool and it is awesome. There were some fields in my CV that were not being properly detected because of some stupid rules (capital non capital letters, bold...). You saved me 🙏

[full siren]

Gotcha, thanks a lot

[open cradle]

Actually, I wanted to ask. Has anyone here used ATS tools to hire people? I had some doubts

[fringe sphinx]

I also meant: swing itself, not the process of learning it. Like: learning swing is a fine intro to gui development, although I’d choose something more modern, but you’ll have more perspective when you learn the next thing.

[full siren]

got your point,makes sense, thank you

[true harness]

just ask the question

[open cradle]

I have been using tools that automatically parse your resume using ATS based. It seems that there are main categories like education, work experience and skills. Does this mean that any other field I have (research & contribution, courses...) are invisible to these tools?

[old stag]

what would be an easy and quick way to get hired as a web developer. I'm a django backend dev with also a good deal of knowledge about the front end including css,html,js (jquery). I've been doing this for 2 years now and feeling confident in myself , now i think im ready for a job. What would be a good way for me to get started? . I'm not exactly looking for a job ; however, but projects I could work on for different clients, a paid internship would work too.

[near ocean]

That sounds like it'd be harder than getting a full time webdev role

You say you've been doing this for 2 years, do you have any projects to show for it?

[old stag]

yes should i link them here?

[near ocean]

Have you asked anyone about them? Whether they're too simple, etc

[old stag]

about the projects yes, most have said pretty complicated but u can have a look for yourself if you want

[near ocean]

Im not some expert, but you can link them here for others to see
Anyway, internships are for university students usually, are you a student right now?

[old stag]

yes a student at the moment

[true harness]

have you used your school's career resources?

[old stag]

nah they aint rly a help , ive mostly learnt it all from sources like freeCodeCamp and some udemy courses

[true harness]

i'm not talking about technical learning. what about getting your resume reviewed, networking events, etc?

[old stag]

Oh mb , my school isn't much supportive in this so no

[true harness]

do you have a resume? also, what country are you in?

[old stag]

I'm still working on it all , the resume , a portfolio website but i do have some projects ready . Once I'm done with the aforementioned tasks ill start applying but i dont know where to begin because of which i asked the question earlier. For your second question I'm currently residing in Pakistan.

[open cradle]

I would suggest not relying on universities for this 🙂

I mean, of course if your university provides the support, it is great

But networking and all this stuff is something that fortunately not only happens in uni

[old stag]

yeah , they arent really helpful unfortunately so im on my own

[open cradle]

I have been contributing to a specific repo and now I am the second with the most contributions. Would you add this as your projects in LinkedIn? Or do you think it is unfair? I am more on the "no" side. Of course if I ended up adding it, I would first write that I am a contributor

[true harness]

i don't see why it would be unfair

[radiant moon]

I'd mention it if it were a popular or impressive repo

[hearty island]

this cert is gonna help my career sm

[open cradle]

Maybe I was just overthinking

[open cradle]

Nah, I do not think it is. But I wanted to use it as a way to prove I am interested in some fields

[open cradle]

Congrats! Which one is it?

[hearty island]

CAPM - certified associate in project management

[fringe sphinx]

Add what? That you contribute? Or second contributor?

[open cradle]

Yeah. I have one main project where I am the creator. But it looked so empty so I was wondering about adding that second one. To me it would not matter whether "I contribute" or "second contributor" as long as it is stated clear I am not the creator

[fringe sphinx]

You could put maintainer, contributor, whatever next to each but it’s probably not worth overemphasizing

[open cradle]

Yeah, I only intend to make it appear once. Thanks!

[buoyant seal]

You should definitely add it. It is more impressive achievement than your own repos, because u show ability to work in a team

Software development is a team effort stuff in general

[open cradle]

Oh, I did not consider this. Indeed there is a difference when you create your own repo and you are the only one doing work and when you contribute in a team-wise way. Thanks!

[stiff shadow]

they should add memes channel

[buoyant seal]

Hehe, Java and DevOps server i am in having it.. and Golang server has it. all important programming communities I am in having meme channels 😁

[open cradle]

Are you saying this is not an important programming community to you? 🥹

[buoyant seal]

It is, but it is the only one without meme channel 😐 a bit not upholding to standards of fun 😊

We should put this thought into #community-meta perhaps

[stiff shadow]

meme channel is a yes

[reef brook]

Hiç türk var mı acaba yardıma ihtiyacım var

[stiff shadow]

speak english

[reef brook]

ı need help

[stiff shadow]

can you tell me your problem

[reef brook]

but ı dont know eng

[stiff shadow]

google translator

[buoyant seal]

Or ask your native speaking community for help then in another place 😉

[stiff shadow]

thats rare

so he should use google translate he wowuldget more help with google translate than ohter communities becuase its probably non exitant

[buoyant seal]

Potentially yes, Google translator it is then

[weary crag]

Or chatGPT 😄

[uncut nexus]

yup, im even contributing to it to make it better

[open cradle]

I am making my CV in Latex. I saw how by adding an extra "\" to split two lines was making the tool crash.

In my case I prefer this tool as close as possible to ATS tools rather than "better"

[uncut nexus]

by better i meant handling edge cases like this 🥹

[open cradle]

I appreciate it then 😄

[near ocean]

I make my CV in word, never had any problems with ATS

[open cradle]

I have two. A more graphic one with Latex (two columns) and the one which is supposed to be more ATS compatible with Word. I tested both in different ATS platforms and to my surprise the graphic one was parsed more correctly

[smoky quest]

I am surprised by that. I have yet to see an ATS that can identify multiple columns correctly. They always mess up and mix and match the different parts

[tulip lagoon]

Hello guys, heres tyche,

Im 23 and my major in university is germanistik and i hate it, i wanna be a data scientist or a data engineer and i learned the basics of python like dictionaries lists tuples , learned the loops regular expressions, learned a few libraries like Beatifulsoup, pandas , (will add numpy too) and im rn learning SQL from a coursera class called "SQL for data science" but i don't know what i can do more for developing myself in this field. (Comment if you an advice, im reading everything you guys write)

I'm trying to solve real life problems to test myself but I have no idea if they will take me seriously if I apply for internships or junior jobs.

If you had an similar or same story please let me know and give me your advice (everything works!)

Peace.

[smoky quest]

Hi!

A couple of things:

• A degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most compensation and opportunities
• Internships are for students to discover the world of the enterprise. Self taught have no need for internships
• The more advanced the field, the more employers will insist on a degree. To that end, going into data related field may be more difficult without a degree comparing to something like frontend dev

[open cradle]

I have been reading about how ATS work. The score they assign and how sections are detected. After I edited some small things, all fields were being properly detected. There might be many ATS tools, so I cannot confirm it works for all of them tho

[smoky quest]

I haven't seen much of a score in the top 3 ATSes in the market

People overestimate the degree of sophistication of indeed/linkedin/etc.

[dim musk]

Hi , getting certificate can mean the same as a degree , in my opinion . I know some pple with no degree that are doing much better then the pple with one in IT jobs.

[smoky quest]

Not at all.
A certificate means shit comparing to a degree.

[dim musk]

I have see the opposite till now

[smoky quest]

that may have been in fields that are more task oriented like IT?

[dim musk]

Problably . I think if you can do the job dosen t matter if you have a degree or not.

[open cradle]

Yeah. That's why I cannot still assure 100% that my CV will be parsed correctly. That's why I have two versions

[open cradle]

Internships can be also a way to get experience when nobody "trust" you yet

[smoky quest]

that's a non sequitur

[smoky quest]

that's also why I recommend to just keep it single column. Too many things to worry about already

[near ocean]

are you a software developer?

[dim musk]

No. Got friends that have jobs like this.

[open cradle]

In USA is way more common seeing companies that use ATS. From my experience, in Europe is not so common. Specially for medium-small sized companies. Few times recruiters told me that my CV looked awesome and that helped me to stand out from the crowd.

So in the end when I apply for a job I do a bet between the graphic and non graphic one. Specially knowing that in Europe most of companies do not use ATS

[near ocean]

huh, okay, and what kind of software dev do your friends do? how much experience do they have? how much are they earning

[dim musk]

I don t ask them how much they earn . I have a friend that is doing java at oracle

[near ocean]

how do you know they're doing better or even as well as degree holders if you dont know how much they make

[smoky quest]

I think there is a misunderstanding about what ATSes do.
The primary function of ATSes is to help track applicants. That's it. Hence the name Applicant Tracking System.
You define your jobs, the hiring process, etc. and it all ends up being in a giant "spreadsheet". As the candidates come in and move in (or out) of the process, they just have a column updated with the stage they are at. And you can also see their previous (or other concurrent) applications.
In the top 3 ATSes of the market, there is no such thing as a score or automation. It's still very primitive. Lever is starting to have something but it's still VERY far from anything useful.

[smoky quest]

Also for context, I am a user of ATSes. I am on the hiring side.

[dim musk]

Did you get ofended or something ? Sorry you if I ofende you but having a degree dosen t mean that pple wiht no degree can t be a software developer ot something lol. He actlay learn by himself and he didn t done any school for it either .

[open cradle]

Oh sorry then I explained it wrong. When I was talking about scores, I was refering more on the low level side. The score ATS assign to each expression to, for example, correctly identifying the phone or each section of the resume. I was not talking aboit an score that reflects the quality of the employee. I know that does not exist

And qhen I say ATS, i refer specifically to the subtool that parses your CV. Not to the whole tracking system

[smoky quest]

There is a difference between possible and plausible.
The market is wide and it goes without saying that someone who has studied full time a topic for 3-5 years in school would have an advantage over someone who has not

[near ocean]

sigh, why cant you answer the question my guy
you come in here saying certificates have the same value as degrees, do you think thats actually true?
you then say you know people without degrees doing well but youre not explaining how theyre doing well

[dim musk]

This is what I m saying don t know why pple get ofended by it :))

[tulip lagoon]

thank you, i guess it will be difficult to get a job without a degree but i can even work for free to gain experience after i feel ready but thank you a lot, its just a dream...

[smoky quest]

no worries.
Even that part is lacking. Like they just try to parse the pdf to embed the resume. That's pretty much it. There won't be any sorting based on the keywords or whatnot of it

[dim musk]

Ok you right ^^ .

[smoky quest]

What' s stopping you from the degree?
I have friends who have been back to school later than you and are doing great

[near ocean]

what am i right for? im just asking a question
you seem to be more offended than i am

[tulip lagoon]

I live in Turkey and my family is waiting something from me + i feel really late to go back and tryna win a university but that could be great if i could do something like that

[smoky quest]

There is an idiom for that: penny wise, pounds foolish.
You would have a much better career in terms of compensation, opportunities and happiness by taking a bit more time now rather than trying to jump on anything now but which will lower your compensation and opportunities and happiness

[open cradle]

Indeed they are quite simple. Before studying how they worked, I thought they were going to be slightly more complex. But it is so basic it surprises me

[smoky quest]

you would be surprised by the number of shitty resumes as well. And then it becomes: do you want to exclude potentially good people because of it? To some degree you want to because it speaks for their communication skills, but where is the limit? And that's a decision an ATS cannot do for you

[open cradle]

Yeah. This ATS thing still pisses me off. Because of it, I have to decrease the "visual" quality of my CV. And I think this also says a lot about myself

[tulip lagoon]

You're so right, agreed on everything you say but I feel lack and my future anxiety have increased a lot, so I think I need to speed up.

[open cradle]

I was feeling the same when I decided to continue studying more years while my friends already started working. I might have started later, but I do not regret anything. I have more possibilities

[hearty island]

y'all does this R symbol look a bit goofy or is it just me

i want small R and i pasted it in Latex but it doesn't show up as that 😦

[fringe sphinx]

I think it looks weird.

[hearty island]

agreed, should i remove it?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes

[hearty island]

thanks!

[hearty island]

also should i unabbreviate it maybe and write Certified Associate in Project Management (CAPM)

[fringe sphinx]

That I don’t know. Maybe ask your mentor?

[hearty island]

just in case the recruiter doesn't know what i'm talking about?

[hearty island]

i don't really have a mentor, but i'll ask the project management discord server i'm part of

[fringe sphinx]

The row is already labeled project management, so I’d guess that’s enough context?

[hearty island]

i hope so, but just in case my resume's read by some recruiter that doesn't know what a capm is i don't want it glanced over

[hearty island]

so my friend who does project management told me to spell out the cert and also to add the date... but i think the date looks awkward?

my brain must be dead

[fringe sphinx]

I dunno, i could go either way for certs, as long as it’s consistent. But you’re young, the date doesn’t really matter

[hearty island]

oh right ok

[fringe sphinx]

(It’s obvious you didn’t get it 15 years ago or something)

[mental quarry]

Hello!!! I am working on a bot that web scrapes and I was wanting to share my progress on LinkedIn for outreach. Is there anything I should keep hidden in my repos that should be hidden for best practice for recruiters/companies? My bot does have features that bypass bot detectors so I wasn’t sure how ethical it was lol…. It’s not really a live bot that’s constantly running but rather one that CAN be. Thanks for the help :3

[smoky quest]

So you are saying that you want to advertise to companies and potential employers that you do sketchy things that could potentially get a bad press to said prospective employers?

[full siren]

Hey, what's the difference between an artificial intelligence engineer and a machine learning engineer? Can they both be replaced with each other?

[smoky quest]

An artificial intelligence engineer is ill defined. That's probably made up by the company. So I would refer to their job description

[full siren]

I've heard of such a type of engineering, that's why i wondered. I didnt see it in any company or something

[smoky quest]

It's still not standard and would then refer you to where you heard it

[full siren]

I just saw it on Internet

[smoky quest]

If I was to venture a guess, I would assume that's someone abusing the term AI and using it for prompt engineer

[full siren]

so it's the ml engineering I was looking for, right?

[smoky quest]

No. Prompt engineer is pretty low skill comparing to ml engineering

[mental quarry]

Yeah that’s why I had asked about it because I wasn’t quiet sure the ethics behind it. Do you recommend any other sort of methods that could help with learning or proper ways to do this?

[pine sleet]

that's not a project i would be advertising tbh

[mental quarry]

Should I still do it by respecting the bot.txt rules on the website?

[smoky quest]

Just don't do sketchy things. It's really not difficult 😉

[pine sleet]

maybe but webscraping is generally against most site's terms of service

[hearty island]

webscraping gets sketchy very quickly

[smoky quest]

I would also suggest to pick another project.
Every kid here works on a webscraper of some sort for some reason. And it's not rocket science in itself either.

[mental quarry]

Oh okay got it! I am more interested in learning the language itself than doing unethical things but it was fun to learn. What kind of projects would you recommend for someone with ~3-4 months of Python experience? Would making wrappers be a good transition?

[pine sleet]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[mental quarry]

Thanks! :D

[near jewel]

i know its rare but is python like a thing making games on is possible? and like somewhat common?

[peak halo]

This isn't a careers question, but you can make 2d games with python using pygame or arcade.

[near jewel]

im uh looking at what possible video games use python

[true harness]

@urban geode

[near jewel]

i do have other ideas but video games kick ass

[urban geode]

I've made a couple of games with Python myself, although nothing hugely ambitious. Python's been used for 2D stuff and visual novels, although anything really top-end is more about a proper development team and the toolsets they use, which revolve more around C#/C++

[near jewel]

see, my visuals are using the terminal and repeating a bunch of functions that print a bunch

or the console or whatever it is i dont care ive been doing this for like 2/3 weeks

[smoky quest]

You may want to ask in #game-development .

[unreal turtle]

is github and replit actual skills?

[smoky quest]

no. same like holding a pen or using a keyboard.
Also companies don't use replit

[unreal turtle]

wb leadership?

[summer roost]

what do you mean?

[unreal turtle]

as an actual skill?

[summer roost]

is leadership a skill? Yes, of course

[smoky quest]

Just don't put "leadership" as a skill in your resume.
It's like saying "I am the best". No one expect you to say otherwise and will be more interested in how you demonstrate that skill.

It goes back to: show, don't tell

[granite mica]

Do ppl say "proficient in git"?

[unreal turtle]

Hey guys

Which looks better

[smoky quest]

Can you put that in a sentence?

[unreal turtle]

• has 18.1 million monthly users for visits in the website

Or

• Significantly contributed to the website's success by driving an impressive monthly user base of over 18.1 million, showcasing strong ability to engage and retain a vast audience.

[smoky quest]

I vote A

[pine sleet]

let the results speak for themselves

[unreal turtle]

The first one?

[lucid vapor]

the latter just feels like fluff

[unreal turtle]

So the first one?

[lucid vapor]

yes

[smoky quest]

yes. Less bs

[unreal turtle]

Alright thanks guys 5 people said the first one, no one said latter

[smoky quest]

A little less conversation, a little more action please

If you want to be fancy, you could even potentially call it Monthly Active Users (MAU)

[unreal turtle]

ok ty

[worthy palm]

Whats the feasibility of learning python myself through courses and such. With the end goal of remote work? I don't live in the US but am a resident so i can apply for US based jobs. Money goes pretty far here for example. 5k a month is equivalent to 100K annually in the states for a simple reference. I plan to go for freelance work or remote jobs after i progress far enough to be comfortable with what I'm doing

[smoky quest]

• Python is just a language, a tool. Not why people get hired for
• If you are in HS or college, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation
• Freelance means you are competing with bottom feeders
• Your pay will be based on YOUR location, not the company HQ. And without degrees or qualification, people will low ball you hard

[worthy palm]

Low balling is fine. This is more or less something to do with my free time. Hence looking for remote stuff since I'm past the college/HS part of my life. Basically i have all the time in the world to learn this.

[smoky quest]

you know the parameters. The rest is up to you

[worthy palm]

Indeed

[smoky quest]

but remember that low balling means competing with folks with very LCOL like pakistan, vietnam, china, indonesia, etc.

[worthy palm]

Im in indonesia 😆

[smoky quest]

well, then you understand 😉

[worthy palm]

Hence money goes far here. Just have the advantage to search us jobs since i keep my citizenship

[smoky quest]

if you are good and can build your business, I guess you can be fine

your citizenship won't mean much though

[worthy palm]

Thats basically the premise.

[worthy palm]

Companies dont want to deal with work visas

[smoky quest]

they don't need to deal with any work visa for freelance

[worthy palm]

Especially smaller businesses. I mean with regard to the employment potential

[smoky quest]

• freelance is more about contracts than employment.
• remote means nothing to deal with visa. It's all about taxes
• employing someone without a degree, half the world away and without experience is a lot less plausible

[worthy palm]

Depends on the company. Some require US residence which i have.
Can use the same US residence to make it slightly more plausible

[smoky quest]

how does it depend on the company?
It only depends if it requires you to work on US soil. If you stay in Indonesia, it doesn't even matter

US Residence would have implications on taxes, healthcare and a few other things

[worthy palm]

Ive seen jobs that require either state residence or country residence for remote positions. Maybe thats far and few

[smoky quest]

visas only matter if you have to go to the USA.
So I would assume these jobs have some travel component or something

[worthy palm]

Im well aware of taxes. As a us citizen i have to pay taxes regardless of where i live as long as the money is in a US account

[worthy palm]

Probably tax regulations as opposed to travel requirements.

[smoky quest]

that doesn't make sense

[rough elm]

This is mostly for tax reasons

[worthy palm]

If you’re an employer and you have to fill out tax info for your employees. Maybe there’s stipulations for hiring people without a SSN for example

[rough elm]

Its more annoying to deal with taxes internationally than it is domestically

[smoky quest]

you are probably overthinking it and it's becoming a distraction to the discussion

[worthy palm]

Yeah. Since different states have state tax and some none at all.

[smoky quest]

businesses need tax ids anyway in the states in which they do businesses, and that includes where employees reside

[rough elm]

We also require all contractors and employees at least be registered as a resident in my country. You can be full remote within those params tho.

[smoky quest]

(even if the state doesn't have income tax)

that said, if you are that successful and make enough money that you have to worry about tax optimization, that's a good problem to have

[worthy palm]

Requirements like this is what im referring to

[smoky quest]

generally they do come with TZ constraints

[rough elm]

What happens with us is that if you live in a different country, you have to apply to the office in that country.

[smoky quest]

but without degrees or reasons to bend the rules, rules wouldn't be bent anyway

[worthy palm]

Which most of not all foreign workers can comply with.

[rough elm]

We have offices in all countries, so that helps too.

[worthy palm]

Thats how alot of expats move to indo for work

[smoky quest]

You have different types of people:

• they could by working like 8pm - 3am type of schedule.
• people with such a good pedigree that rules don't apply anyway

[rough elm]

I actually thought about going there for a couple of months to do some work

[worthy palm]

Indo?

[smoky quest]

same to work remote too

[rough elm]

Ye to Bali, just for a month or 2

[worthy palm]

But without residency they dont even qualify. Thats where i potentially have an advantage. Albeit slin

[smoky quest]

doesn't matter for folks already working in the USA
most countries are visa free for <= 90 days

[worthy palm]

Bali is nice. Avoid holiday season

[rough elm]

Ye I wouldnt move there permanently, it would be on a tourist type thing

[worthy palm]

Not talking about ones living and working in the US already.

[smoky quest]

I was since I was considering it

[rough elm]

Im in milan now doing the same thing cuz the flight was 1.5hours vs like 24h

[worthy palm]

Yeah its deep here

[smoky quest]

either way, don't let the residency be a distraction.
First thing first: https://roadmap.sh/ might help provide some guidance on the topics.
And check the freelance websites like upwork for what's being asked

[worthy palm]

Upwork is what put the idea in my head honestly

[rough elm]

Fiverr is another freelance site i heard of, I m not sure if its any good tho.

[smoky quest]

there might also be some local meetups about freelancing where you could network and learn from others

[worthy palm]

Not around here though

Originally SQL is what pulled me back into trying to learn coding again

[rough elm]

Do you already have some experience coding? Why not just get an entry level job for some experience and guidance?

[worthy palm]

Basically impossible locally

Manpower laws. No experience but learning. Spend about few hours a day on it

[granite mica]

do yall know of any internships for ppl who finished hs but are not yet in college ?

[rough elm]

I dont but maybe try and look for an open source project you like to contribute to.

[granite mica]

oh Im doing that already

do you mean like, I could maybe find more opportunities from people working on the same projects and stuff?

I guess networking is a big thing no

[rough elm]

I wouldnt say specifically that but if you het an opportunity to talk to ppl from that project definitely take it

[granite mica]

right yeah

in your experience, what are the best ways to get interesting opportunities in tech?

[rough elm]

I only had one interview process that i applied to myself which was an analyst type job that i got after finishing my degree. Im looking for another one but all those processes started by me contacting others i have worked with before already.

Having someone that can verify your ability to do the work gives you a massive head start imo

[granite mica]

interesting, that makes a lot of sense - then maybe I guess I should stick to what Im doing rn
ty dawg!

[worthy palm]

Is it viable to start taking small jobs on upwork and fivver in the beginning to build a portfolio of projects?

[rough elm]

My advice would be to cast a wide net. Dont limit your chances to just one specific opportunity

[worthy palm]

I plan to make trading bots as im experienced in forex trading.

[rough elm]

The actual execution of the trade, the model on which it evaluates or both?

[worthy palm]

Both

[rough elm]

Have your previous bots beaten the market?

[worthy palm]

I know a few people that do it

I have beaten the market manual trading a particular way. Ive seen some upwork jobs for trading and strategy bots

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to enjoy one of your last free summer 😉
You can always have projects for fun

[rough elm]

Maybe just contact a local bank, i know my employer regularly checks ppls work to see if the models are sound. If they are you just get offered a job as a trader with a couple mil to start with.

[worthy palm]

Not looking for anything like that. Also wouldn’t be local banks it would be US banks

And the stress of trading someone elses money isn’t a positive thing

[rough elm]

With local i just meant ones you can travel to easily.

[worthy palm]

None. Overseas remember?

Local companies don't like to hire foreigners

[rough elm]

Oh right, for some reason i totally forgot where you lived

Idk i feel like tradebots are a sort of trap that ppl fall into. You either know how to do the model, at which point you can just go work for a bank/large financial institution to make actual money, or you know the tradebot side which leads to the same organization but on the tech side.

If you can do low latency stuff, I dont think it would be that hard to get a workers visa anywhere. Same for the math side of this.

Can you explain some more about the type of trade bots you are making?