career-advice

[buoyant seal]

give me hyperspace travel across stars 😉

[gritty rivet]

I'd settle for a jetpack that gets me over the traffic on the highway

[buoyant seal]

nuclear powered flying cars ^_^

[coral vine]

splat

[orchid frost]

Hi, im pretty good with python and c# but was extremly intrested in maching learning. One issue i had is the amount of math ivloved. Im fine with math, but as i havnt even taken geo trig yet, am worried that i will be fighting an uphill battle. Are my worries justified, or am i taking the wrong aproach?

Dont want to become an expert

Maybe just be able to use NEAT

[peak halo]

what level of schooling are you in? and (this being the career discussion channel) is ML a space you ultimately want to work in professionally?

[orchid frost]

Yes

Oh mb, any recommendations on where to go

[orchid frost]

Almost high school, but I feel like that’s not a great indicator besides where I am in my math education

[peak halo]

at your current trajectory, will you have taken some amount of calculus by the time you finish high school?

[pine sleet]

Are you also in the US?

[orchid frost]

Definitely yea, yea in us

[pine sleet]

If you are in the US, I find the most common path for high schoolers in terms of math is usually
Geometry -> Algebra 2 -> Pre calculus -> AP Calculus AB/BC

[peak halo]

then you're on track as far as math is concerned.

[orchid frost]

Great!

[pine sleet]

Some students will switch up geo/alg2 but the end result is still the same

[orchid frost]

Any resources for machine learning/ neural networks that I might be able to start now, so that I can develop onto it as I progress?

[peak halo]

you need to at least understand derivative calculus to even understand what you're looking at

[orchid frost]

Ok

Thanks!

[peak halo]

how much have you learned about statistics?

[orchid frost]

uh

[peak halo]

you can say "none"

[orchid frost]

Pretty much, forgot there was the slow mode

[peak halo]

yeah, be sure to say everything that you want to say in one message.
are a high level, machine learning can be divided into "models that are neural networks, and ones that aren't", and the ones that aren't often apply statistics more explicitly than do neural networks.

(though at the end, ML is statistics all the way down.)

[orchid frost]

Ok, so ones that arnt I have to train and create the neural network myself, and models i use in applications pre trained?

[peak halo]

not all of ML involves neural networks. So for the models that aren't neural networks, they are not neural networks.

[orchid frost]

Ahhh ok. could you give me a few examples?

[peak halo]

decision trees and k-nearest neighbors clusters are not neural networks.

[orchid frost]

Ah ok , sounds like my best course of action is to come back to this in a few years

Thanks for your help!

[peak halo]

as far as your long term strategy is concerned, the most important thing is to do well in school, and in math especially.

[peak halo]

as an aside, why don't you want to become an expert?

[orchid frost]

Don’t want to limmet myself just yet, need to try out other fields of cs first

[peak halo]

I dunno, there are so many essentially unrelated professions that fall under CS. I don't think you need to try all the domains of CS any more than you should try other things that might potentially interest you.

[orchid frost]

Yea I agree, have been sticking away for web development becuase the really isn’t my jam, have. A pretty good. Understanding of what I like.(I said didn’t want to become an exper becuase I knew if I did I was going to be told to learn calculus)

[peak halo]

you need to learn calculus if you ever want to get paid any amount of money to do ML

including, like, a dollar.

[orchid frost]

Yup, wasn’t really thinking about the money rn

[peak halo]

This is America
always gotta lean to the green.

[dreamy spade]

It’s been a long fight but I have an asynchronous video interview to record.

[north tiger]

yikes i would not like that

[vapid jay]

Guys 😭

I only know Python and my boss in this new job is making me learn html/css/js/vue… I added a title to our website, a box with text in it, a button to minimize/maximize. It took me 8 hours to do that. I feel so useless but I never lied on my resume. I never said I knew how to code other languages.

[north tiger]

but you did it, and you didn't give up you should feel good. nice icon btw

[summer roost]

and you'll be faster next time, and now you know some stuff you didn't before.

and you're developing some skills for your next resume. 🙂

[vapid jay]

Thank you! Haha love boJack!

[vapid jay]

That is true, I’m just scared that my boss will be disappointed tomorrow because I spent the whole day on it. He gave me a list of things to get done.

[north tiger]

i don't think it's unreasonable to spend a day learning in a new area

[summer roost]

A day is not a lot of time.

And like you said: you were honest about your skills. Your boss knows this isn't something you were already experienced with. And I doubt someone else who didn't already have experience in web stuff would have done it much faster than you - it sounds like you picked up enough to do some useful work very quickly.

Is your boss technical?

[vapid jay]

Ok yes that makes sense! Thank you for your point of view

What do you mean technical? He works with data visualization and he doesn’t know coding that much either

[summer roost]

I guess I mean, would your boss be able to complete this task faster than you if they spent the day working on it, instead of you

If so, I'd assume that this task was given to you, at least in part, to help you develop new skills that will be useful to you (and to your boss) going forward.

[vapid jay]

Yes you’re right. He told me that he isn’t expecting too much but he knows I can do it (for some reason) so idk, I did enjoy doing it though and you’re right haha it will be good for my resume

[summer roost]

Sounds like a good, supportive boss to me, based on that. Have they complained in the past that you were learning too slowly?

If not, I wouldn't expect them to start complaining tomorrow. They told you they knew you could do something, and you spent the day doing it. They were right about your skills, and you should be proud of doing something outside your comfort zone.

[vapid jay]

No, I just started one month ago

Thank you so much

[brave mauve]

Heyis there a way that i could get a job as an tech assintent ? i'd like to do it like an intership, im willing to work even for 100$ or 50$ per month i just want to get some experience in this field, i already have a job but i dont want to leave it because i earn enough for living, and i would like a part time Job as programmer so that i could get some experience

[hybrid flare]

Maybe python is too hard for me..

[smoky quest]

that sounds like asking for a bit too much.
You may want to work on your skills on your own.

Can you also expand on what a tech assistant means to you?

[smoky quest]

How may we help you?

[brave mauve]

I mean working for a senior or engineer and i could help him with small and boring stuff while i learn how tech world works

[hybrid flare]

I'm giving up haha

[smoky quest]

fair enough. Good luck!

[smoky quest]

Looks like you are looking for some sort of apprenticeship. That depends a lot on the country and would typically be split across some sort of schooling and practice within a company.
You may want to look up the available programs in your area

[strange nova]

@smoky quest I'm not a kid though, I'm a soldier on my second time through. I'm a trader and spent five years on that picked up programming from scratch all over again when I was 24 after 3000 hours. Fuck the kids I go with impunity

[smoky quest]

okay that changes things a bit.
If you are in your mid twenties, there is still time to go to college if you want to. Past that, it may be more efficient to look into career conversions or bootcamps or self teaching. But in that case, you should not expect to get into the fancy parts of CS like google brain and such

For self taught, frontend may be the easiest path of entry, but you will still need plan to stand out. It's still not only a high tech field, but there are also plenty of self taught folks attracted by the money and the potential of working from home

if you have had any interesting skills developed during your past life, that could also be leveraged sometimes

also I know nothing about the army, but I heard a lot about random programs and help with conversions. So it's worth investigating as well

[civic violet]

Hi Guys

[civic violet]

Hey I'm Jasper 16-year-old game dev from Amsterdam. Love coding in Python, C#, and JS. Exploring new places(Countries) and meeting new people. Student at Groningen Lyceum. My Dream Is To Be A Freelance Game Developer Who Makes Indie Games

[tough hull]

Good luck

[civic violet]

Thanks....

[strange nova]

@smoky quest metaphorical soldier I couldn't get in to navy seals like I wanted. Literal I would say businessman and a writer, hard worker, analyst are my skills.

I had this chunk of change saved up one time and said I'm going to try to become a pro trader one time give it a good shot, coded bunch of different tests and researched things for thousands of hours. Nothing I could code per say worked but I had a shot at some big money , so maybe that wasn't a complete waste of time overall. I have been feeling like I wasted all that time as a default.
Not to mention owning a business that went south before that. I also feel like everything is my fault.

[near ocean]

By trader do you mean the financial instruments type or a trades person?

[civic violet]

?

[sour tartan]

they mean financial instruments.

[pastel thunder]

no, you guys are getting interview?!!

[spark cobalt]

Not-so-secretive secrets

[vestal kettle]

95% silent reject. 4.9% canned reject email.

[dreamy spade]

Why not?

[spark cobalt]

It's very lazy and prohibits natural courses of actions for discussions that are unique to your backgrounds and situations.

[true harness]

yeah, plus you're not getting any information about the company. I'm not really sure how asking questions works with a recorded interview

[dreamy spade]

Whatever. It’s better than nothing.

[spark cobalt]

For sure

[glacial zealot]

That's really cool. I'm learning Python right now and I plan on learning C++/C# next. My dream is also to be a game developer. However I'm still thinking on whether I want to make 2D or 3D games.

[orchid frost]

In a similar situation, but already know python and c#/unity, but I have a hard time getting committed to make a game, they always stop halfway.

[vapid jay]

Where can I hire a python Dev experienced with selenium?

[near ocean]

Not here

[glacial zealot]

Try to keep in mind the hours you've spent learning c# and unity. You can't let them go to waste.

[vapid jay]

guys should i just skip scratch altogether?

i have a brain the size of peanut and was taking things slow

[true harness]

sure, if you can handle it

[vapid jay]

geez

hello world was pretty intense but i think i got it

[vast urchin]

If at all, what's the most common project management software uses in this field? I'm trying to make a career change from healthcare and was told I should be up to speed on some of those types of softwares. The ones I've identified so far is Jira, Asana, and MS Project. Any one of those, or others, I should focus on more?

[near ocean]

Jira probably, though i've also used YouTrack from jetbrains

[dreamy spade]

I just finished my video interview. They asked me what superpower I would like to have and why

[true harness]

well? what'd you say

[dreamy spade]

Invisibility

[true harness]

more like, "invisibilit"

[north tiger]

someone actually asked me the "biggest weakness" question recently and i was caught off guard because it's so cliché and uncommon

[glacial zealot]

One more question, what would you say was the difficulty level of C# for u??

[near ocean]

Its uncommon? I've had it in all my interviews

[true harness]

that's unfortunate. i have a great answer for it but no one ever wants to know my greatest weakness 😦

[north tiger]

i'll just tell them that question is my biggest weakness

[sleek egret]

so your weakness is your ability to self-reflect?

or is it your ability to open up to others?

[dreamy shadow]

My weakness is when the laptop charger stops charging my work laptop

[sleek egret]

that would suck

[hearty island]

damn i got called about an associate project manager full time role but then they were like wait you graduate may 2024 nvm but call us when you graduate!!

[summer roost]

Companies willing to commit to a hiring decision a year in advance will be very few and very far between.

[hearty island]

yep. i should just chill and enjoy my internship.

[summer roost]

Hell, I've heard plenty of recent stories about companies rescinding offers extended only a month or two prior, let alone 12 months. I'd suggest it's probably not productive for you to apply for positions that you wouldn't fill until after you graduate at this point.

[peak halo]

was this during the pandemic especially?

[summer roost]

It's been a story people have been telling about the large tech companies doing layoffs this year. When a company announces a hiring freeze or layoffs, outstanding offers might be rescinded

[north tiger]

i would also consider you brave to apply to a company that has had recent layoffs

[summer roost]

🤷‍♀️ I'm not sure you can really predict whether there will be future rounds of layoffs just based on the existence of past rounds.

[true harness]

applying is not really that much effort in the first place

[sleek egret]

tech company layoffs have been, overall, quite small

[north tiger]

what do you base this on? tons of people were laid off from Meta, AWS, and countless other smaller companies

[sleek egret]

microsoft had apx 220,000 staff, and announced layoffs of 10,000 staff. If their avg job tenure is 4 years, that's 50,000 hires every year

I think the worst hit was Meta... with 80,000 staff at the end of 2022, they've announced 20,000 layoffs. If their avg tenure was also 4 years, that means 20,000 people leave voluntarily every year. with 20,000 layoffs, to reach 60,000 staff, they'll still have to hire 20,000 new staff

[sleek egret]

most layoff announcements are for wall street and to comply with with labor laws. layoffs are treated differently for unemployment insurance than firings for cause.

[true harness]

you mentioned meta twice?

[sleek egret]

did I? sorry, the first example was microsoft. my bad.

if Meta doesn't hire to replace those who voluntary leave, on top of 20,000 layoffs, that means they'd be cutting headcount by 50%. I doubt this scenario holds water.

in point of fact, a lot of the "layoffs" will be voluntary. typically large corps ask for volunteers

and thus, people who are going to leave anyway step up to take advantage of a more generous severance package that often goes hand-in-hand with mass layoffs

my guess is that next year, meta will have about the same or just a tad lower headcount than this year

i.e. not a 25% reduction from 80k -> 60k that 20k layoffs implies but more like 70k to 80k heads. which means they'll probably hire around 10k to 20k people this year

obviously, I'm just speculating there

alphabet/google has 135k employees. they're only laying off 12k. which means they'll hire FAR more than they lay off

amazon is more difficult to analyze because so much of their 1.5 mil or so staff works in warehouses/logistics/retail and they don't really break down how many work in what divisions.

the real issue for job seekers is that the current environment has led to a 1) a slowdown in people leaving positions, 2) a slowdown in replacement hiring (because of #1) and 3) freezes and slowdowns in hiring for new positions.

#3 is especially important for new grads and junior staff

[tender wren]

Hello, I'm a fresher in the department of cs. I wanted to start early studying stats and probability, so can anyone suggest books or youtubers that teach these topics

[deft herald]

You could take a stats class. Or do you not have the prereqs for it yet?

[tender wren]

they start in sophomore year

[true harness]

cartoon guide to statistics

[tender wren]

thnx

[wanton birch]

You guys have any good resources for interview preparation for jr software devs? Preferably something where you can have topic/subject based content.

[smoky quest]

You shouldn't prepare it like an exam. That's the wrong outlook.

I would suggest to:

• Get your resume in order
• Get some of the projects you would like to talk about ready for being talked about
• Study DSA if you were bad at it
• 2-3 weeks prior your interviews, do some leetcode
• Schedule some interviews with some companies you don't care about. That will give you some experience, to see how it feels and discover what you need to work on next

[wanton birch]

Thanks. That's helpful. I am not trying to game the system or anything. I am not a developer developer. What I mean is that my background is not CSE. I just happen to have experience coding and building things by coding in various languages. I enjoy coding and just learning about computers in general. I didn't get much formal education in coding and mostly taught myself to do things based on the task at hand (google, stackexchange,reddit,blogs, youtube,etc). So it's very intimidating to just show up for a technical interview.

I assumed there'd be resources for junior developers where you may get access to topics/language based things to study/practice.

[gritty rivet]

I see the book "Cracking the Coding Interview" recommended a lot, but haven't read it myself.

For any given topic, you can search the web and find multiple lists of practice questions. What you focus on depends on the jobs you're looking for and where you need the most practice.

And of course, there's LeetCode etc.

[spark cobalt]

Not the biggest fan of CTCI personally. I like the combination of Grokking + EPI more.

[smoky quest]

if you get called for an interview, it means you are worth talking to. Don't underestimate that.

[uncut quest]

Interviews are scary. I always get nervous.

[north tiger]

just like anything else, it becomes less scary the more you do it

[floral knoll]

ikrrrr

[vapid jay]

Same for me

[true harness]

the problem is getting enough interviews for practice 😭😭

[north tiger]

you can ask your friends to interview you too!

[harsh river]

some colleges offer mock interviews, and so do public libraries and the like

[spark cobalt]

There's also pramp, though it's very hit or miss depending on the partners you get. Also very educational in terms of seeing other people's mistakes and seeing if you're doing the same thing.

[hearty island]

google interview warmup

[uncut quest]

so real

[final juniper]

Is anyone here pursuing a college degree?

If so, how's it going so far - are you enjoying it?

[true harness]

i'm in the US and a CS major, for reference. it's kind of terrible tbh. my current courses are really boring, and the geneds are hard. but i have a lot more free time compared to high school, lol.

[final juniper]

Do you feel like you've learned useful things in college?

[pine sleet]

I thought you'd have less free time
I mean, the amount of hours of lecture I have is less than halved
40 hours now in high school, only 16 in college
But i figured course difficulty would make up for that time

[true harness]

yeah i'm sure the free time will go down eventually. right now i don't really study

[pine sleet]

lmao

[true harness]

technically no, since as of now, i haven't learned anything in class that i haven't already learned outside of class. but if i hadn't learned it beforehand, it would be useful

[robust island]

I've heard it said for every hour of class, you should spend 3 working on it outside of class

[pine sleet]

Unfortunately my uni is kinda competitive so I need a 3.75 gpa to get accepted into a CS major

[harsh river]

my first semester i basically had only 2 days busy, rest of the week did shit all, its why i joined a lot of majors and stuff

[robust island]

How many hours did you take that sem?

[final juniper]

Have you taken OS and compiler classes yet?

[true harness]

no. next sem i'll be taking OS. my school is so shit we don't have a compilers course

[final juniper]

I see

I'm in 5th semester of software engineering
currently taking OS and compiler course
it's been the best so far

but in general, 90% of my time in college I feel like a waste of time tbh

[robust island]

Do you do a lot of collaboration and things like that in SWE?

[final juniper]

We build a lot of projects, usually in groups of 4 - 5

[true harness]

oof

[robust island]

Employers seem to like it when you have a degree. If it weren't for that, I'd just teach myself everything for a lot cheaper

[final juniper]

yeah
thing is I'm already employed

[true harness]

as a software dev?

[final juniper]

yeah

[robust island]

In IT?

[true harness]

interesting. are you a full time student and a full time employee? or are you part time for one

[robust island]

So what are you still doing in uni lol

[final juniper]

I'm a part-time employee
because of college I don't have much time, so

[true harness]

interesting. how did you come across this job? there aren't typically many part time software dev jobs

[final juniper]

college takes most of my day, and I feel like I'm just wasting my time in meaningless class, for most of the time

[final juniper]

literally my professor indicated me

[spark cobalt]

Would be really hard to work with a part timer

[final juniper]

to a company of his friend

[spark cobalt]

Very charitable, good for you

[final juniper]

indeed

[robust island]

Might as well finish up the degree tbh, if you ever wanted to switch to another type of job it'd be easier w/ a degree in addition to prior work experience

[final juniper]

Yeah, and I also work remotely.
But I almost never work 4 hours / day, I usually tend to work a bit more than that.

[spark cobalt]

Part time is a little different from full time too. Enough that it's not expected that you would be doing high priority or heavy tasks, simply due to lack of time

[final juniper]

If I have the time that is, because there are days that my first class starts at 06 AM, and ends at 08 PM

[final juniper]

Indeed, but the company I work for is a small one.
There are only two full-time devs, and one part-timer (which is me), so sometimes I do have to work on some high priority tasks

I even take my laptop with me to uni, so when the classes get boring I just pull out my laptop and get to work

that makes me feel like I'm wasting less time tbh

[spark cobalt]

I'd get grilled if I did that lol. NDA and everything...

Sounds sick. I'm assuming you're planning to finish your degree?

[true harness]

do you do full time in the summer?

[final juniper]

Non-disclosure agreements? Well, I haven't shared any information about the product, so...

[robust island]

Well if you only went to college to get a job, seems like you accomplished the goal already. I have no experience in this stuff tho, so take everything I say with many grains of salt

[final juniper]

Yeah, only 3 more semesters to go. But, I don't feel like going to college anymore, that's how boring it is to me now - although some courses are very interesting, and I do like them, but the majority is not.

[spark cobalt]

Publically displaying company stuff still breaks NDA I thought, even if I don't explicitly tell people about it.

[true harness]

that would depend on the nda 😔

[final juniper]

hmm... I see. Well, nobody's going to find that out I hope, I'm not from north America, so

[spark cobalt]

Hard to enforce I guess, but I was forced to take like this 1 hour training thing which basically was shoving this down my throat

Not even sure if the NDA includes this

[final juniper]

Indeed, that was my goal, to go to college in order to get my foot in the door

[spark cobalt]

Probably still worth it. A lot of employers only consider full time permanent roles as YOE, and would likely just consider your current experience more of an internship experience even if you were actually providing value to the company. Since you were also in school while employed, it'd "match" so to say

[final juniper]

Yeah, you're right

I guess I just wanted to rant a little about college, that's all

Plus, I have 8 exams / tests (I'm not sure how you guys call it in English) next week

[true harness]

yikes

[final juniper]

xD

[hearty island]

fun fun

[final juniper]

Well, I better get my ass to study right now
thanks for the conversation guys

[uncut quest]

College courses definitely got harder later on. Freshmen courses were hard because of the hard science requirements (Physics, Chem). Junior / Senior courses got much harder as I started taking more technical classes that were merged with grad school students.

[sleek egret]

the problem with asking that to people in university is that they don't really have a good perspective of what will be useful or not.

[quick tulip]

Hey I want to become a data scientist, what are the skills I require?

[smoky quest]

From a career perspective, a related degree (CS, data science, etc.) will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.
From a skill perspective, you may want to look at the resources linked in #data-science-and-ml

[worthy dove]

guys currently i am persuing a degree in arts and i am also learning python (self teaching) i want to get a degree in cs on scaler what type of degree will be best for me on scaler??? any thoughts on it?

[smoky quest]

a CS degree is the path of least resistance for CS related jobs and with the most opportunities and compensation

There are some variables in terms of how your current degree relate to your job of choice though. So if you pursue an art degree, I would assume you are looking more for a job related to art with a bit of python components, rather than a pure python job

[worthy dove]

i am pursuing a law degree

[smoky quest]

So let's take an example:
Imagine your car is having some issues and you take it to a garage/mechanics to have it looked at and fixed. How would your react if they tell you they have spent 4 years learning cooking and that they do an awesome pasta dish?

Also if you pursue a law degree, how does art come into play?

[worthy dove]

i am from india... we have a stream med, non med, arts, commerce etc,,, after 12th we can take a law course which we call ba llb means it gets you two degrees at the same time arts plus law..... i am just curious if i will complete this degree plus learn programming myself currently i am learning python can i get a job??? or not

[smoky quest]

you could get a job. The question would be if this is the type of job you want.
While you have spent 4 years on your law degrees, others have spent 4 years on a CS degree. So do you plan to compete with them on the same jobs? And if not, are you willing to take on lower jobs?

[vapid jay]

finish the degree. Any challenging degree is better than no degree. Even if you are not a lawyer, it shows you are able to get a degree. It's like a filter for hiring

[worthy dove]

@smoky quest yes anything will work while i am learning new things....

@vapid jay yes first i will finish law plus i will learn python side by side

[smoky quest]

you could look at https://roadmap.sh/frontend for a list of things to help.
Frontend is a typical entry point for self taught engineers

[worthy dove]

@smoky quest thanks

[high mango]

i am a student in higher school and i am choosing software engineering is it the best choice

[tall dew]

the best choice is what you're interested in at that point. usually.

if you're genuinely interested in software, how it works etc. then you'll have fun in the field and probably have a good career as well

[chilly night]

hello everyone, I wanted to ask, I am a civil engineer trying to be a software engineer, what are the things that I should do or look for in becoming a junior software engineer? I am purely focusing on Python right now, can't seem to choose a path on what should be done. And also I would like to do some networking as well, maybe a master would like a tutor?

[gritty rivet]

Look for the jobs you want to apply for. It's much easier to develop your portfolio when you know what skills you need to demonstrate

Spend some time looking at these too if you haven't: https://roadmap.sh/

[harsh jolt]

Well, my Civil Engineer sister says she'd give her right arm if somebody could write a decent piece of software to do drainage calcs instead of her having to use whatever piece of propietary rubbish her firm uses at the moment!

[pine sleet]

I hope you don't have any uses for a right arm then

[harsh jolt]

her choice!

She even came along to PyCon UK one year to see if she might fancy having a go at writing it herself.

[pine sleet]

Did she?

[harsh jolt]

Nope.

[neat dock]

Any python bioinformatitians here?

Or any bioinformatitians

[near ocean]

Do you have questions for them?

[neat dock]

Yeah, i wanna see what is demanded for someone applying for jobs in this field, i am currently working on my self to get more involved, and already having some pipelines. But i wanna see the market demands

[near ocean]

Usually a bunch of degrees for something like bioinformatics
generally biotech, stats sort of degrees

[neat dock]

The thing is, i am about to have a phd in microbio, but all my work is involved arround bioinfo, but i am a bit limited in python, and i liked working like this more than lab work, so asking just to know on what to improve so maybe i can get a job doing this

[dreamy spade]

When I made improvements to my resume, it gets downloaded at a higher rate.

The company that I wrote 4 exams for didn’t get back to me yet.

[sleek egret]

yar

[sleek egret]

why don't you write one for her?

[harsh jolt]

If it were for her, I might but, for her employer, I'd want paying!

[buoyant seal]

write for her, and forbid to share with others in company (or better, make auth process to ensure that)

[sleek egret]

why does that cat have no ears?

[buoyant seal]

the point is, they are... pressed to his head in the way they aren't noticed.
usually when animal has ears pressed to its head, it means it is doing something naughty and it is knowing about doing it

[sleek egret]

animals don't have morals

[buoyant seal]

animals have emotions. it expresses fear or nervousness (the latter i was meaning to tell)

[sleek egret]

I agree they have emotions

well, some animals anyway. obviously it's a spectrum.

but emotions != morals

and that cat still has no ears

[long meadow]

we are animals. I reckon dolphins also have morals.

[spark cobalt]

Depends on how you define morals. Lots of ways to understand morality depending on your background in history, religion etc.

[simple flicker]

hey guys I'm a rookie

[vapid jay]

ok so i am thinking of starting a cybersecurity carrer and i want to know how good it is

i currently have some very good knowladge on programming and hacking but i want to put thease to use

[sleek egret]

it can be awesome. it can suck horribly. it can be fulfilling or it can be soul crushing

[vapid jay]

yeah i know that

[sleek egret]

so pretty much like most other careers. there are few careers that have generally good or generally bad expectations.

[north tiger]

it's a great field! the internet is not going anywhere and security is more important than ever

personally i think network security is fascinating and there is so much to learn

[vestal hedge]

How to.create a career out of.python.

[deft herald]

1. develop skills
   a) degree in computer science
   b) self-teach python skills

2. apply for job
3. get hired for job

there are other options to 1) as well

[spark cobalt]

Find a problem/product/task that's currently commonly solved with Python, get an understanding of that problems domain and learn how to tackle different areas of that domain with Python.

[vestal hedge]

Find it always hard to stay engaged with project that is interesting and valuable.

[north tiger]

sticking with things you don't want to do is called discipline and it's necessary to succeed

[sleek egret]

my suggestion is to NOT create a career out of python. build a career developing software instead.

[spark cobalt]

If it was easy, everyone would do it and SWE life wouldn't be as lucrative/appealing as it is right now.

[north tiger]

i think it helps to find an area you're passionate about too. find problems you think are interesting and satisfying to solve

[sleek egret]

Languages go in and out of fashion. Over the years, I've professionally used C, C++, M68k Assembly, Object Pascal, Perl, Python, SQL, Javascript, VB, C#, and more. Most of you will use a similar range of languages after a few decades.

[spark cobalt]

Less than 1 YOE, but have used Python, TypeScript, and Go so far (for work). Rmah an OG

[deft herald]

And it only appears this way from the outside 😄

Layoffs. So many layoffs

[spark cobalt]

And many hiring as well

[sleek egret]

I've been thinking of picking up either TypeScript or Go. Your thoughts on which?

[vestal hedge]

Whay is SWE?

[sleek egret]

the layoffs thus far have been mild, relatively speaking

[spark cobalt]

Go gets boring fast ngl. If you commonly use JS, I'd pick up TS.

[sleek egret]

ok, thanks for your perspective

[deft herald]

Yeah tbh this is the first time i've faced it at my current company since i got here ~5 yrs ago

[spark cobalt]

Software engineer

My company hasn't had layoffs thankfully

[sleek egret]

in the dot com crash, more than 1/2 of software jobs disappeared over the span of a few months. no openings at all. senior developers were crying.

[spark cobalt]

My dad had to switch careers at the dot com crash lol

[sleek egret]

many companies told people they could either take pay cuts or there would be layoffs. so they took paycuts. then a few months later, there were layoffs.

[spark cobalt]

There's too many people at work today, time to go.

[sleek egret]

lol, so anti-social

[spark cobalt]

Hard to focus since my workplace is super talkative to each other

Nah when like music + noise cancel headphones doesn't completely erase the outside sounds, that's my cue to leave

I want only Donny Hathaway in my ears and no one else

[sleek egret]

fair enough. have fun on the way home Wilder

[spark cobalt]

[brittle thorn]

C, Pascal, VB, FoxPro, ASP classic, ASP.net,VB.net, Java, C#,Matlab, Python, JS lmao

[sleek egret]

I remember FoxPro. talk about blast from the past

and I forgot Java. I've done projects in Java. Maybe my subconsious was trying to protect me by trying to forget it.

[brittle thorn]

Yes what about VAX COBOL and Fortran

I migrated a VAX COBOL system to FoxPro for Y2K...Fortran i seen in a wave sim

[sleek egret]

not I! I had guys sitting in the same room doing cobol though

[north tiger]

my dad was a COBOL engineer

[sleek egret]

did a bit of fortran while in school but I don't think that counts

[brittle thorn]

I did GW Basic in high school

[spare mortar]

I did basic and dbase

Started as a cobol trainee but thankfully I got fired

[sleek egret]

remember when dbase dominated business apps?

[brittle thorn]

Ye

[spare mortar]

Did a ton of dbase

[sleek egret]

all the variants of dbase, I mean: dBase, Fox, Platinum, etc

[brittle thorn]

I did code generation in VIsual FoxPro

[spare mortar]

What is left today of all that?

[sleek egret]

why isn't there a web replacement for dbase? you know what I mean? not a dbase clone, but to fill that niche for easy custom business app development?

[brittle thorn]

Probably Google Forms?

But limited

[spare mortar]

I dont remember any users in the company using dbase directly, we always made programs for them

[sleek egret]

I know a guy who does customizations for SalesForce, his business is quite similar to the dbase consultants of old

but I don't think there are 100's of thousands of such guys like there was with dbase

[vestal hedge]

Would you courses are more usefull then books

[spare mortar]

at that time we coded in only one language, everything you used was contained in one box

Nowadays everything has a million hooks into a million other things

I am just starting out in python, it took me a while to digest how easily a whole new library can change everything

The last time I was a fulltime programmer was before windows 95...

[brittle thorn]

What have you done in between?

[spare mortar]

I did some QA and sysadmin, and a lot of nontech stuff

[brittle thorn]

Ah nice

[north tiger]

what made you switch away from tech?

[spare mortar]

opened a cybercafe, did hackerspace events

[north tiger]

i find the idea of ever changing fields intimidating. engineering is my identity. i don't know what else i would do

[sleek egret]

does telling programmers what to do count as "programming"?

[brittle thorn]

Still tech related

[spare mortar]

Ah never left tech entirely, it just became a hobby

[brittle thorn]

Nah I'm a Chem major that went into IT that also taught in HS, Worked in research lab and published in a Physics Journal

[north tiger]

what a ride!

[spare mortar]

wandered around placing posters in nyc saying "computer repair guy", people called me and i went

[sleek egret]

hey, you remember techserve, the mac repair guys?

[brittle thorn]

You made it there you can make it anywhere lmao

[north tiger]

i remember hearing the Techserv ads on NPR for sure

[spare mortar]

ah yeah tekserve was like tech heaven

[sleek egret]

I stole a few guys from their staff for my ISP back in the 90's

[spare mortar]

oh what was your isp

i was a subscriber of mindvox

[sleek egret]

angel networks. we served mostly small businesses, you know design firms, law firms, etc. transitioned into web sites and software dev in the late 90's

[spare mortar]

dialup isp was awesome

[sleek egret]

sold our dialup customers to mindspring

[spare mortar]

i was sad to see the big monopolies gobble up the little isp companies

mindspring itself got eaten later

[sleek egret]

that business infuriated me... demand exceeded supply yet all my competitors kept reducing prices to gain marketshare

[brittle thorn]

Oh my I remember those dial ups

[sleek egret]

a single support call would wipe out profits from a customer for the entire freaking year

[spare mortar]

Oh yeah dialup had high costs and it was dirt cheap

I think i paid 20 bucks a month to mindvox

[sleek egret]

that said, our little office had a pair of T1 lines to different tier 1's in 1995 🙂

[brittle thorn]

I remember those too lmao

[sleek egret]

what was that ISP in the early 90's in NYC? I can't remember the name. they had a unix host and it was run out of the guy's apt for a while

[spare mortar]

having a T1 was a huge deal, the word "T1" was kind of synonymous with "techie infinite orgasmic drooling material"

[sleek egret]

one of the first ones...

panix!

I got an account on their system in the early 90's and it was like discovering a new world. before the web, back when it was just usenet, ftp, archie, veonica, etc

[spare mortar]

i remember panix, but didnt know they had that history

I remember panix, mindvox, interport

[brittle thorn]

What if this server had a computer history discussion thing seems we can fill it lmao

[sleek egret]

they were so ghetto... when the finally got an office, friends of the company escorted their servers on the subway to downtown

I mean, come on man, get a cab, lol

[spare mortar]

those isp companies were kind of underground

[sleek egret]

yeah, it was before the web and the dot-com crazy

[spare mortar]

ops work calls

[sleek egret]

I made some decent money but I put almost everything into another startup and then lost it all in the dot-com crash.

shit happens

[shadow elbow]

Any mid career DS professionals willing to have a conversation centered around mentoring an aspiring DS with a strong analytical and computing background? Looking for advice on next steps for getting a job (portfolio building, skills to refine, etc).

[smoky quest]

Hi!
It's simpler to ask your questions directly here. Asking for a free dedicated 1-1 mentorship is a strong commitment to ask

[shadow elbow]

Oh sorry about that I didn’t realize, thanks for letting me know.

[north tiger]

here are the two things that made the most noticeable difference for me:

• format resume using the STAR method (https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/resumes-cover-letters/star-method-resume)
• having recent and relevant code available on your Github. this means if you are applying for full stack roles, you have back end and front end code that can be reviewed

[shadow elbow]

Okay I realize after posting this that asking for a 1 on 1 is a lot, so let me be more precise with my question so people can respond. What types of projects should I be doing to build my portfolio, and what resources do people suggest? Here is my background: I’ve experience with scientific computing (& HPC) / programming from doing a masters in water resources engineering. I used an HPC to run a spatial/temporal percolation model coupled with a mechanistic earth systems model to predict 21st century wildfire. I have a basic understanding of prob and stats (mostly descriptive) but no ML experience. Oh and I’ve a lot of data cleaning work too.

[shadow elbow]

Thanks for this resource 🙂

[north tiger]

are there any interesting problems you can solve with those skills? some of the best programs were born of necessity

[shadow elbow]

A great point, and an even better question. Right now I have the skills to curate an analyze data but I would benefit from some scraping techniques so I can sniff out a problem.

[north tiger]

Python is certainly a good tool for that. Have you heard of https://beautiful-soup-4.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ ? There are many fascinating data sets to explore. see also: https://careers.uw.edu/blog/2021/10/05/21-places-to-find-free-datasets-for-data-science-projects-shared-article-from-dataquest/

[north tiger]

i have one more cool technique to share and i was actually just complimented on my resume today thanks to this tool: http://creddle.io/ - it has a lot of nice templates

[gritty rivet]

It's all about iterating between your current skills, the job openings you see that mostly match those skills, picking out which skills are in demand for relevant jobs but missing from your current portfolio, and designing projects that address those gaps.

In other words, if you have a few attractive job descriptions and your current portfolio side by side, choosing your next project should be a little easier

[covert drum]

Hi

[errant jacinth]

Heeey
So, the thing is, I have applied for some internships and jobs for the first time and I'm kinda worried about the interview process, as I haven't done anything like that
What should I prepare myself for in general? I'm really clueless about that sort of stuff

The only thing that I can think of is how there might be a coding challenge and that really worries me as I don't really perform that well under pressure and I google lots of stuff while coding, which is probably not allowed during the assessment

[north tiger]

here's what i do to prepare:

• use a note taking app to create a document containing all the questions and other info about the company (i like Joplin - it's open source)
• think about what you want to know ahead of time and write it all down here. you can even plan out what you'll say in response to expected questions.
• create a list of questions you'll ask every company and have it ready for the interview
• for coding challenges consider working on leetcode and hackerrank. a lot of this stuff is just memorization
• if you don't have one already, create a Github and start adding projects to it. this makes you much more attractive and can sometimes help you avoid coding challenges

[errant jacinth]

What are some of those expected questions? Got a notebook ready to write those down right now
As for the coding challenges, I'll start doing some daily ones so I can get the hang of it

[north tiger]

i have a lot but these are some of my favorites. you might be concerned with different stuff

• If I were to step into this role tomorrow, what would be my first priority?
• what are your favorite libraries and how do they make your life easier?
• lets' say you have an ambitious (if not outright unrealistic deadline) and you need to make sure you are making constant progress, what do you do?
• let's say you have a problem and you need to solve it. would you be more likely to create the solution in-house or try to find an existing solution?
• how does $COMPANY support its engineers with regard to professional development?
• what's career progression like?
• what would you say is most important to succeed at $COMPANY?
• if you were tasked with coming up some tech debt to address right now, what would it be?
• what is the last change you implemented based on employee feedback and what impact did it have?

[errant jacinth]

Finished writing it down
Now, what about questions directed at me? What do they want to know about me in general?
I want to have an answer for generic questions

I noticed that these questions you wrote were from me to the recruiter

[north tiger]

well the first question you'll probably be asked about are the projects on your resume. for me they ask about the two projects listed on my latest role. so think about projects you've done in the past and how you made a significant positive impact on them

for me i talk about a project where i drastically improved performance in our product and how it helped improve the functionality. this is an example of the STAR method i mentioned above - formatting your resume to talk about your accomplishments at work

[errant jacinth]

I see, I already have two projects in mind
One of them is a simple python library that wraps around sqlalchemy, while the other is still in the planning stages; it's a rather ambitious telemetry and debugging tool that runs on nodejs and django, which I have no idea if I'm going to kick in the high gear or not.

[final juniper]

That's true

[dreamy spade]

I saw a LinkedIn post of a Front-End Developer struggling to find work. They have been a Front-End Developer for 5 years. That shouldn’t be happening.

[smoky quest]

why not?

[dreamy spade]

…They have 5 years of Front-End development experience. If I was them, I would be fuming. I didn’t gain all that Front-End knowledge and experience just to end up struggling to find a new job.

[smoky quest]

maybe they are bad at it? Maybe they have a terrible resume? Maybe they have an inflated ego?

We can find many examples of struggling experienced people as well as many examples of flourishing experienced people

[vapid jay]

For front-end i think it depends on what you are displaying

This is probably a very bad advice, but if i were to hire a front-end developer, and could hire anybody i wanted without looking at the price, i'd look for somebody who showed design creativity in the way they approach web design (and i would pay extra for somebody who showed he was approaching it with performance in mind). But i mean i would look less for polish and more for extravagant ideas

I dunno if this is passe by now, but the last time i got a feel of what everything looked like, it seemed like doing some parallax scrolling website was the "professional look"

instead of a top bar, you scroll from "home" to "who we are" to "about" and etc. it seems a bit safe to me

Its almost like a powerpoint presentation

here is an example, even though its very polished and well made: https://media.monks.com/

[near ocean]

Absolutely terrible website btw, i think i have the opposite opinion on this

[vapid jay]

explain?

[craggy wave]

That website looks visually impressive, but it's much too distracting for me. I wouldn't want to have actually read it for information nor would I really trust it to convey the right information to my readers if it were my website. Ideally, I have specific points that grab attention which convey the key points I want someone to notice when looking at a page.

It's showing off animations and techniques, but I don't think the design is very functional

[vapid jay]

I agree, the site used to be more sparse, i think right now they are very well known, so they have added a lot of stuff to the main slideshow

[vapid jay]

Though, the thing is, this is a company that sells design

[craggy wave]

Hmm, I wouldn't hire them

[vapid jay]

How would you make clear you can do animations and techniques without showing them off on your land page?

the site used to be a lot more sparse a few years ago, but it still did present some showy stuff

[craggy wave]

By using animations and techniques the right way, in a design that is actually usable and readable for users, two other great cornerstones of design you can show off in

[vapid jay]

i think their main failure is that they have turned their landing page into a collecting of last blog posts by their employees

[craggy wave]

I didn't even notice that it were blog posts

[vapid jay]

it used to be more sparse, showing off clients

and you couldn't quite tell it was a "category slideshow", because it used a common black background that would animate in different ways as you scrolled

[vapid jay]

👆

[vapid jay]

How would you make a similar site, a landing page for a company that sells design, being that they market themselves as the "edge"?

[craggy wave]

I'm not a designer, so that's not for me to say. I would say that if I were on the market looking for a design company, even if it were in the area of something flashy, getting the impression that not only they can pull off bells and whistles but they can actually use them in an effective manner that results in a functional design would be important.

It's like a video editing company showing off all the editing techniques in a 30 seconds clip, without showing that they know when and how to use those techniques effectively to produce a video that's actually highly engaging, conveys the key points, and so on.

Or an aspiring software developer showing off that they know the finer details of a language in great detail but never demonstrate that they actually know how to apply their knowledge and skills in an actual project.

[sick bison]

wtb motivation

[vapid jay]

what do you think showcases a functional design for websites?

[near ocean]

Animations not being so heavy they look chunky on my year old pixel phone
Shit takes way too long to load, couple of seconds to show me their company name?
Also a huge box dropping from the top to ask me to put in my email
There must be better ways to showcase animations without overloading the visitor

What happened to nice slick clean minimalist design

[vapid jay]

how would you make it @near ocean?

in terms of design i mean, or would you do a similar thing but more performant?

[spark cobalt]

The world has been moving towards more simplistic, clean, intuitive designs. While it's great that you can do all these animations, it means nothing if you don't know how to use it effectively in ways that make sense for users.

[near ocean]

Im not a designer so obviously my opinion here doesnt mean much
My own small site is minimalistic, the craziest animation i got going is a card expanding on hover 💀

[spark cobalt]

For example, one of the major blaring things is that you don't need to make a screen that fills up half the page to pick a language (fills up half the screen for mobile) when you can use JS to access a person's language set on the browser.

[civic violet]

guys, i need help, could anyone say some ideas for a game like:
-Platformer
-Clicker
-Action
etc etc pls

2D, using python & pygame remember

[true harness]

it's broken too

[near ocean]

It works as intended

The intent is to annoy you specifically, its tailormade

[spark cobalt]

Also my RTX 1090 renders that animation in like 2 FPS lol

[vapid jay]

I hate that though

[spark cobalt]

I hate it too lol, well I don't hate it but it definitely shouldn't be there

[vapid jay]

Im actually on a sort of opposite side to this, id rather a much more animated web, but i also am with you that i want it to be way more minimal

[spark cobalt]

Creating new standards for changing languages on websites only hurts people who commonly do this

Even if it's "easier" for people who do need to do this (which is <1% of people probably)

[vapid jay]

I hate i when it localizes, if i wanted the localized version i would have clicked that, lol

but maybe you are right

[spark cobalt]

Then you're an outlier. There's no reason to make a person do a click for something the browser already gave the information for.

[vapid jay]

most people might want automatic locale

i think thats what domains are for though

if i get into cnn.com, i want cnn.com, not cnn.com/my-language

but i agree with you, the sensible thing is to auto localize

[spark cobalt]

It's a challenge to make something that's technically complicated, simple for a user without that knowledge to understand, navigate, and work with. And typically these animations (or, more accurately, distractions) really hurt that experience.

[vapid jay]

i think what hurts the experience is the powerpoint idea of a slideshow

specially when you overload it with blog posts and other stuff nobody cares about

[spark cobalt]

Well, there is one thing that your slideshow does well, it puts the information as the only thing that needs to be looked at and processed.

[vapid jay]

yep thats true, but i think it could be more creative, though i do not know if thats what most people want

[spark cobalt]

Sure, it's a spectrum and this is just one of the extremes.

[vapid jay]

imo, id go for the most animated thing possible, no scroll

say you chose a different section and all letters start spinning and become a different paragraph

if you get in through mobile, maybe the letters are upside down, or on a slant

[spark cobalt]

I hope you don't build or design any products I use daily for work. I couldn't give a shit about a spinning paragraph, I just want the information there, everytime, with very minimal effort, immediately.

[vapid jay]

so you gotta rotate your phone to read it

[spark cobalt]

You sound like you wanna torture people using your apps

[vapid jay]

hahaha, i cant wait to be lead excell designer and make everybody type backwards

[spark cobalt]

[vapid jay]

i wouldn't do that for anything functional, but i would to present a creative thing to the world, computers can be so much more than lists

[spark cobalt]

Oh yeah I completely get that. There are some things where the more creative side of the spectrum makes sense. For example, a personal portfolio, a personal blog, etc. But god forbid if all my repos rotate on Github everytime I go to my profile I'll question life.

[vapid jay]

have my logo dissolve into flying pixels and form a paragraph explaining who i am, whatever

[vapid jay]

lol hahaha. but, hear this, say there's a guy whose repo is about computer graphics and about being an optimizer

and he can do a mad rotating thing with nice performance in css and js

[spark cobalt]

If this guy exists, all I can say is damn he has a lot of fucking time

[vapid jay]

lol well, but thats kind of the thing of the internet isn't it

or used to be

[spark cobalt]

I mean all in all, there is a time and place for everything. In my experience, like 99% of the internet doesn't benefit from animation overload. And for the 1% that it does make sense, a lot of it in practice is mindless animations

[vapid jay]

i agree with you, but thats cause web developers tend to be very dumb

you ask some of them to make you a rotating website and it will make a phone catch fire

[spark cobalt]

Well, depends on the team. But generally, the job of actually designing the website is separate from the web developers.

[vapid jay]

oh no, i mean like the actual code you see there

yeah the design, those guys are actually way better than what they end up doing in my experience, i know a few guys who ended up doing that stuff and motion design

[buoyant seal]

sometimes joined, sometimes. for full stack and frontend devs ^_^ especially if they offer those services

[spark cobalt]

I've seen a lot of good frontend developers, and a lot of terrible ones. Thankfully the ones at my company are gods lol

[vapid jay]

its a crime

[spark cobalt]

It's definitely annoying when UX designers or whoever's designing websites have no consciousness of how a user would use an app and go do whatever meets their fantasies

PSVE you're always up early tf

[true harness]

always? I have exams today lol

[vapid jay]

tends to happen lately, seems they do not use the things they develop

[spark cobalt]

What time is it for you?

Ah

[sick bison]

why does tk look like windows 95?

[vapid jay]

lol

you can somewhat make it look better, but its hell

[sick bison]

i mean i get that there are better front-end languages but literally the bulk of it's widgets are outdated by 30 years

think i'd rather have a slow gui than one that ugly

[vapid jay]

qt

[spark cobalt]

All customers that I build products for very, very strongly believe the other way around

[sick bison]

can't be worse

[vapid jay]

guis are overrated

but no, there are themes? styles? that look more current

or catch on on the system theme

you can mix that with a cleverly disguised theme, but yes, its a pain

[sick bison]

I mean there're times and places for radio buttons and blocky sliders but it could be a bit less minimalistic

[vapid jay]

you need to use tkinter.ttk and styles and heavily edit

[sick bison]

nah i'll never write a gui with python

[vapid jay]

using tkinter.ttk + clever styling you can get normal system themes though

[fleet drift]

Tkinter is hard to deal with

[sick bison]

just part of the 100days course, also i didn't realize i was in career discussion

[spark cobalt]

What 100 day course

[fleet drift]

Just js it

[vapid jay]

100 days to win 95 calculator

[sick bison]

https://100daysofpython.dev/

[spark cobalt]

Is it even good? Like I personally wouldn't do this or recommend this to anybody since the person teaching these courses have 0 YOE as a software engineer and doesn't have a CS degree and there's like hundreds of other resources that are from experienced individuals that I would consider to be much more credible, future-proof, and reliable.

[vapid jay]

https://ocw.mit.edu/search/?s=department_course_numbers.sort_coursenum&t=Computer Science

[sick bison]

its an excellent course for exposure, very hands on, teacher is clear and tolerable

[vapid jay]

Anybody who teaches programming and isn't making you do linked lists in C at the very least in the second term is a grifter

[sick bison]

I think she has some experience in front end devt, so not a perfect fit but still, i find the teaching style to be pretty helpful. I'm self taught so without a layout my study kind of wandered aimlessly

I'll probably stop around day 50 and move into DS ML or SQL

[vapid jay]

first term: 1st half: python syntax and basic problem solving, 2nd half: oop, debuggers, and indirect problem solving, basic algo analysis in relation to indirect problem solving

second term: no rails now, lol

thats for a programming course, no complex math analysis involved

[spark cobalt]

Learning more "closer to the Earth" more theory based stuff is generally more helpful. At least personally, after I confirmed that my skepticism to programming books was all misguided by these Youtube tutorial and blog connoisseurs, I just stuck to books and documentation only.

[vapid jay]

but thats exactly the problem

when you do not know how to frame a problem, you end up in the murky lands of maths

thats why the first couple of years in CS is mostly analysis

(at least here)

[sick bison]

I have 4-5 years data analysis experience so that's not really a concern for me personally

[vapid jay]

when i say analysis i mean maths, thats what its called here at least, its not the same as data analysis

i didn't go through CS, but my bro is currently in year 5, still has 3 to go

[sick bison]

I'm not following, is data analysis and a few stats courses not maths?

[vapid jay]

the first 3 he didn't program anything, he had this "analysis" courses that were about coming up with math proofs for shit

[vapid jay]

its not what i mean by analysis, of course it is

[dreamy spade]

i'd look for somebody who showed design creativity in the way they approach web design

Sounds like you want a UX/UI Designer.

[vapid jay]

what else would i look at for a front end guy?

[buoyant seal]

writing maintainable, clean, unit tested, typescripted code for your yet another SPA (TLDR: being a bit more than just javascript scripto kid)

[near ocean]

Frontend isnt necessarily about design, usually theres some overlap however
At work theres a UX team that comes up with designs and a UI team that implements them

[gilded wedge]

can someone help me with contract and pro forma invoice
i am doing a freelancing project for a company and they asked me for these forms
how can I make these, what are requirments

[spark cobalt]

You're asking for business requirements online rather than ask the company themself?

[gritty rivet]

Never had to handle it myself, but I googled it for you: https://dbmbootcamp.com/freelancer-contracts-and-invoices/

[gilded wedge]

thankyou friend, i already wrote my contract

was wondering do i have to insert image of my signature

[gilded wedge]

oh no i was not asking for them, I was asking what are some things I should keep in mind before writing one, and like do i need a lawyer

[wind solstice]

question do i really need to go to college to become a successful software engineer i dont want to go to college but i want to be a software engineer

i am willing to put in the work i just dont want to go to collge and i want to make good money

[near ocean]

Why dont you want to go to college

[wind solstice]

i feel like it a waste of time and i dont come from riches i have never been a school kid

i kinda bomb 10th grade so if have to go to college 11th grade is my last chance

[chrome summit]

HR department reading resume - no college and no internships. NEXT

[near ocean]

Not going to college is pretty much shooting yourself in both feet

[wind solstice]

😭

[wind solstice]

dam i was wondering if certfications would help

[near ocean]

Yea, the degree certification

Other stuff is pointless and usually ignored

[wind solstice]

dammit well ok thanks

[chrome summit]

Not the same. Like if you could became an expert that is known for X thing. That is the only way to be the exception but the proven path is primarily through college. To avoid it, you would need to do your own startup or prove yourself in a certain topic through projects.

[wind solstice]

i see ok

well if i do go to college will i make enough to pay of student loans?

[chrome summit]

Depends on where you are and how well you do. It is not a guaranteed recipe to success as well.

[wind solstice]

like when i look up software engineering jobs they make 6 figures is that a lie or is actuall true

[near ocean]

That depends on where you live and study but usually yes

[wind solstice]

ok i live in new york so

[chrome summit]

SUNY is a great value. Go to a community college first.

[near ocean]

US salaries are some of the highest you can get

[wind solstice]

yeah i have been thinking of going to community College and if i do good enough go to actuall college

[chrome summit]

100K is working poor in NYC though. You need more like 250K for a decent living.

[near ocean]

You dont need to rent or buy next to wallstreet you know

[wind solstice]

yeah but that would require years of work to a get a promotion

[chrome summit]

FAANG average is 250K. It is not a unrealistic expectation.

but yes, at entry level, it will be less than 100K

[near ocean]

Getting into faang is an unrealistic expectation to start with

[wind solstice]

whats faang

[near ocean]

The average CS graduate doesnt work for facebook or amazon

[wind solstice]

oh those comapines

yeah idk if i even wanna work there the stress most be insane i am gonna be surrounded by genius

[chrome summit]

Wall street is actually slightly cheaper vs the more expensive Manhattan areas like TriBeCa or SoHo

[near ocean]

The point is you dont have to go rent right in the thick of it
You could stay elsewhere outside the city and commute

[chrome summit]

Pricier than you think

[wind solstice]

entrey level with that kinda pay is not bad i guess

[true harness]

going to college is the work

[chrome summit]

and getting the first job afterwards

Once you have the degree and experience, you are fully set

@near ocean I am assuming you have not lived in NYC area. I live here.

[wind solstice]

the thing is i have seen people say oh you dont need college apprantly it only teaches theory

[true harness]

they're wrong. and besides, the theory is important anyway

[wind solstice]

mmh ok well shit i gotta no life school now

i bomb 10th grade so bad bruh my average is like a 65

[near ocean]

I live in london, im extrapolating from my experience living and working in a large city

[chrome summit]

The commuting costs from living further become quite high and property taxes as well. If you rent smaller units, you can find bargains. However, if you decide to have a family or want more space, it becomes pricey either way.

[wind solstice]

ahh ok

[true harness]

internships! get internships

[wind solstice]

i hate nyc i want to leave and move

[chrome summit]

I love NYC lol

[wind solstice]

how would i do that

[chrome summit]

but I am in NJ

[true harness]

go to college. apply. get accepted

[chrome summit]

college partners with firms for internships

[wind solstice]

thats if i can go

i mess up 10th grade i only got recommendations from like 5 teachers and 11 grade left

[chrome summit]

Internships are typically only targeted at colleges. In the UK, apprenticeships are starting to pop up but the US does not have that.

[true harness]

what grade are you in

[wind solstice]

and 9th grade i guess

[wind solstice]

10th

[chrome summit]

Study for GED is an alternative way and try community college. I am not sure what mistakes you made but you need to overcome the issues you had.

[true harness]

why'd you mess up 10th grade then. fix that, then do well in 11th and 12th. you can get into college

[near ocean]

you said you'd put in the work

[true harness]

that has your full name btw

[wind solstice]

yeah and my school

[chrome summit]

I know the law school near you. Very nice area.

[wind solstice]

yeah it pretty good

[true harness]

companies are rarely hiring people without degrees. you have absolutely no chance without a high school diploma or GED. so start by improving your grades next year

[wind solstice]

😔

[chrome summit]

NYC is also an ultra competitive market

[near ocean]

dont have to stay there

[wind solstice]

yeah thats why i dont even think i am gonna get into colloge

[chrome summit]

no getting into college is not an issue. It is why I recommended community college.

[wind solstice]

yeah but my parents want me to stay because of the opportunines

[chrome summit]

Community colleges do not have admission standards. You just need to have HS degree or GED.

[wind solstice]

yeah i could do that but thats a asscicates degree

[chrome summit]

Then you get an AA and transfer into SUNY for the BA

[wind solstice]

but it better than nothing

oh yeah if i learn coding lanuages now when i am young will college be easier?\

[near ocean]

yes but thats not the priority right now

[chrome summit]

Knowing math and English will make college easier.

[wind solstice]

yeah i gotta go study

[wind solstice]

oh ok thanks for all the advice

[dreamy spade]

So many people have told me that they got hired without a degree

[sleek egret]

how many is so many?

[near ocean]

Its called survivorship bias
How many college dropouts or non degree holders have you asked about their job hunting?

I've only spoken to 1, wilder, in here
And know about another from the pins in the channel

[dreamy spade]

Id say several.

I’m in other servers and I must say that they are some very conflicting advices.

[sleek egret]

then look up the statistics

it turns out wage and labor stats are gathered in quite a lot of detail

[dreamy spade]

Well thankfully we do know that tech is one of the industries that don’t require you have a degree unlike the nursing field.

[true harness]

it's possible. no one says it isn't. it just happens to be so difficult and rare that it's effectively required

[dreamy spade]

I don’t like the rhetoric that deciding to not go to college is “shooting yourself in the foot.”

[north tiger]

i have been a software engineer without a degree for sixteen years. however, i think in my latest job hunt i have seen a great deal of jobs requiring a degree. i think part of that is because i am seeking senior and manager level positions

[true harness]

it's true there are tradeoffs, and college is not always an option for everyone. but deciding means you have a choice. choosing to not go to college is opting for a much harder career path

[sleek egret]

if the medical care field was like software dev, everyone from brain surgeons to nurses aids would be called "doctor"

[near ocean]

You're free to test this yourself
I don't like it either but im not putting my career and livelihood at risk voluntarily

[sleek egret]

well, you may not like it, but not going to university really is shooting yourself in the foot <shrug>

[near ocean]

The way this changes is not from the outside, but from the inside
Go get a degree, a job, succeed in it and then dont hire people with degrees i guess

[dreamy spade]

This is what a few folks are saying in some software development server. There’s conflicting opinions about the value of degrees. The reacher guy is a supposed employer as well.

[north tiger]

i think in retrospect i wish i did go to college. i would say i am successful but there is a lot of stuff i never got to learn

[sleek egret]

lol, companies founded by people without degrees routinely require degrees or only hire people with degrees from "elite" universities

[deft herald]

I don't think a degree "literally means nothing"

[sleek egret]

yes, I've seen people say similar things many times. but ask them how many people they've hired don't have degrees

people will often say one thing and do another

[true harness]

it definitely means something. BLS shows that B.S. holders earn like 10k more than people with only HS diploma

[deft herald]

well, that's not that much to be fair

[peak halo]

And there are jobs that simply aren't available to non degree holders.

[near ocean]

Does this reacher guy have a degree?

[sleek egret]

not at least attending university also affects VC financing

[sleek egret]

jack reacher?

[true harness]

https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2022/data-on-display/education-pays.htm. not relative to what a software dev might make, but for a median person, that's a lot

[true harness]

you can be a ~non-traditional student~

[sleek egret]

so BS vs HS is about 60% higher

[near ocean]

What qualities do you have that you think would put you in this "smart kid" category and how do you showcase them?

[north tiger]

you mean like attending college now? maybe i will

[sleek egret]

my sister went back to school after working for like 10 years. she said she enjoyed it a lot

[zealous path]

30 to 60 years olds in college/uni is not an uncommon sight

[north tiger]

yeah i think i would appreciate it more that i am older and more patient. i didn't have the same level of discipline back then

[sleek egret]

isn't there a movie called "house bunny" about that?

[dreamy spade]

Intelligence?

[sleek egret]

lol

do you believe you are smarter than the average bear?

[true harness]

it goes back to the age old 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏. you can be the best dev in the world and it won't mean a thing unless you can demonstrate that you are

[near ocean]

How do you showcase that through your personal projects and/or CV

[sleek egret]

well, you can get internships at respectable companies while in university

[true harness]

not without projects or some achievements though

[near ocean]

Cant get internships if you're not a student

[sleek egret]

you can get internships without such

[sleek egret]

yes, well, that's an issue for non-students, I guess

[true harness]

i suppose it's possible to get an internship without some projects. but it's like how it's possible to get a dev job without a degree. there's just too much competition that has projects that it's difficult

*edited to add clarity

[sleek egret]

no, it's not possible to get an internship as a non-student. as a non-student, it's just called a "job"

"internship" carries legal and tax implications for the business. I don't remember the details, but it's a different class of employment.

[cold adder]

interesting

[near ocean]

This just circles back to "your projects are not good enough" but we've been there before

[sleek egret]

some projects are good enough for some hiring managers

some other projects are not good enough for some other hiring managers

hell, sometimes your project is good enough for one but not good enough for another hiring manager. or vice versa.

[north tiger]

i thought having tons of projects on my Github would be enough but adding a recent one made a big difference

[sleek egret]

cool beans. it's always great to see people do better

[north tiger]

yeah. i kept having interviews where they asked me to do homework so i decided to make something in the hopes that i could avoid that. yesterday i got to demo that project in an interview and i believe it will be the main reason i get this job

[sleek egret]

the reason for "tests" is that a substantial % of people outright lie on their resumes

our firm uses a filter exam. applicants have 2 hours to complete it. we've noticed a bifurcation of results where the high scorers take about 30 minutes and low scorers take the whole 2 hours.

[north tiger]

yeah i totally get it. it just makes the job search rough when you have to do so much unpaid work

[sleek egret]

and some of the low scorers are... well.. let's just say it's clear they lied. later, we may find that some of the high scorers turned out to have cheated (which seems silly to me, did they think we wouldn't find out?)... but, oh well, no test is perfect

[sleek egret]

I get it, the situation sucks. if you have ideas on how to improve the process, I'd be all ears

understand that even during "good times" when there is high competition for talent, we'll get like 200 or 300 resumes for each job slot

during bad times... well... I suspect we'd see multiples of that

[north tiger]

i really liked the interview process for the job i just interviewed for. instead of doing whiteboard tests/puzzles/etc they asked me questions about how i work and allowed me to demo my own work. this eliminates the need for tests and allows the potential employee to show off their skills in an area they are comfortable with. you can further enhance this process by asking them to make a simple change to show they understand the code as well

[sleek egret]

the problem is to filter the 200 to get to whom you interview

[north tiger]

yeah i think that is no easy process and probably the reason there are so many products to address that problem

this is kind of like the exam but i did see a few jobs that had a problem to solve as part of submitting the resume. it was a SQL problem where you had to answer with queries. that was kinda cool and i would prefer that to an exam with lots of questions

[true harness]

i was being interviewed for a company for an internship and they revealed that they received ~400 resumes 😔. for 2 people to review

[north tiger]

have any of you seen personality tests as part of the resume submission process? i saw one company that wanted me to take a ~30m personality test. i noped out immediately. so cringe

[true harness]

yes. it was terrible

[chrome summit]

I have never had a personality test personally (I've worked in banking my entire career)

[peak halo]

taking a 30m personality test should not be a prerequisite to an HR person looking at your resume for 30 seconds.

[north tiger]

i think personality tests are just weird and probably not based on science

[peak halo]

right. really, if there's a personality test at any point in the hiring pipeline, that shows their hiring criteria are whack and that you probably shouldn't work there.

[chrome summit]

I am trying to imagine the results for the quants that I have worked with LOL

[true harness]

i also had actual IQ test-esque tests. something like "pick the shapes that match this shape from a set of options that rotate". and "do this mental math quickly", literally just stuff like 13 * 41

[north tiger]

that's definitely a nope from me. and you know they're sitting there going "nobody wants to work anymore"

[chrome summit]

For entry level IT roles, I have seen logic exams for candidates. These were roles where they did not care if you had Comp Sci or history BAs.

[sleek egret]

pretty sure banks don't want you to have a personality

[chrome summit]

Ability to work with others is important in certain roles though

[sleek egret]

really? I think IQ tests are actually illegal in the US due to some random court decision way back when

[dreamy shadow]

All minimum wage positions at big companies.

[true harness]

they called them "games" ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sleek egret]

lol

[true harness]

they had this one where you needed to determine what emotion a person was feeling just based on looking at their eyes

[chrome summit]

lol

[north tiger]

wtf

[sleek egret]

you can see into a person's soul through their eyes

[chrome summit]

how are you feeling? @true harness respond with emoji

[cedar gazelle]

Anyone doing internships that require python?

[dreamy shadow]

fear, as in fear for this test

[north tiger]

i kind of want to work there just because it's clear they have no problem paying people to do useless tasks

[dreamy shadow]

Naw, these places will make you work the hardest. "This person must be desperate, willing to go through our bs test"

[true harness]

they're all just like this

[north tiger]

seems extremely plausible

[true harness]

also this. this one is actually kind of reasonable maybe

[dreamy shadow]

Needs:

[pine sleet]

what is this

[true harness]

personality test

[pine sleet]

Part of your hiring process?

[true harness]

a different company. i got rejected prior to interviewing lol, i guess based on the test results

[north tiger]

couldn't tell if the eyes were angry

[sleek egret]

it's cinco de mayo!

[true harness]

i legitimately had no idea for most of them lol. is that a thing that people are supposed to be able to do?

[north tiger]

i'm not sure. i guess the eyebrows were supposed to be an indicator

[sleek egret]

yes, most people can discern other people's emotions by looking at their face

[true harness]

really? what about just the eyes

[sleek egret]

to some degree, yes

[oak dune]

I mean somewhat. It’s a weird test to do for any job tests tho

[sleek egret]

for technical roles, the ability to determine other people's emotional state seems rather low priority

[graceful mason]

ah the anti-autism tests, I've had one with procedurally generated faces before
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504339906303098880/1095056426335997972/44d83abeb8e1a44c348b74d9bc6bf29c.png

[sleek egret]

I could see using it for direct sales and other customer facing roles

[north tiger]

yeah that's how it seemed to me too - trying to filter autistic people

[true harness]

what is that supposed to be 😬. disgust?

[sleek egret]

no, fear

[graceful mason]

I think I put down "constipation"

[oak dune]

Yeah that’s actually what I thought

[sleek egret]

lol

[north tiger]

i would think an autistic person would be well suited for technical roles though. so i don't understand the purpose

[sleek egret]

you would be wrong

at least for most technical roles. software development is a team sport

[oak dune]

Since people with high functioning ASD like Asperger’s usually have trouble reading social cues or emotions

[oak dune]

Yeah me too. If they can do the work 🤷‍♂️

[north tiger]

i'll admit it can be hard to work with people that do not understand social cues

[sleek egret]

the majority of the work is communications

as is true of most "knowledge work"

very few important software projects are developed by an individual in isolation

really though, it doesn't take much to improve junior developer communications skills dramatically.

for example, we'll have weekly "code reviews' that are mostly show and tells with the internal group where a few people present their code for comments (both positive and negative). this gives people a chance to practice presenting and uses the urge to appear good in front of peers to get them to improve their code quality 🙂

[north tiger]

i love talking about code so that kind of stuff is great to me

[sleek egret]

I'll usually have a junior present something to the senior management team regularly

[oak dune]

Sounds daunting lol

[sleek egret]

etc, etc. there are a variety of such little tricks. and most people become comfortable with it and improve a lot quite quickly

[sleek egret]

only the first few times. then it becomes routine. which is the point.

[oak dune]

Yeah true

[dreamy spade]

I don’t know. Why does that matter?

[dreamy spade]

I don’t know why you guys are asking me these questions like I represent a case where I’m a brilliant with no post-secondary education.

[smoky quest]

yeah, that's bullshit

[sleek egret]

I think it's because 1) you seemed to be championing the idea that university is pointless and 2) when asked how employers would choose, you said "intelligence".

I don't think anyone took you to be tooting your own horn loudly. you're just arguing that side at the moment. it's not a big deal.

[digital fjord]

I mean, yeah, if you know someone is competent and willing to learn, that makes then a more qualified junior dev than the median candidate with a degree. The problem is proving that competence and ability to learn in a job market where people don't look at your resume too deeply.

[dreamy spade]

1. You are committing a strawman fallacy. I made the claim that I dislike the rhetoric that going not to college is “shooting both of your feet.” I was also making the claim that there’s conflicting and differences of opinions when it comes to the value of degrees.

2. Intelligence is the greatest predictor of success.

[sleek egret]

the problem is that there are many cadidates with degrees who are also competent and willing to learn

[spark cobalt]

It's not that they're completely and utterly wrong. It's just that for what reacher said, how can you better prove your ability to learn by showing you're able to go through a rigorous CS program in college? Everything beyond that is highly questionable for anyone reviewing your resume. Not saying that you can't learn, but to actually read a resume on someone and come with this assessment is very difficult.

There's plenty of competent people as well.

[sleek egret]

um, ok. as for #2, I must disagree. the greatest predictor of success is self-discipline. i.e. the ability to 1) decide what to do and then 2) do it.

[digital fjord]

sure, colleges let incompetent people pass, but it is still a better filter than the nothing people without a degree have.

[sleek egret]

there are also lots of incompetent people without degrees

[spark cobalt]

And the major reason it's a better filter is because it's pretty much the most reliable thing besides prior experience on your resume for an employer. Projects can be copied, lots of things can be bullshitted.

[sleek egret]

I think though that, in general, people with degrees are slightly more disciplined and willing to put in work to achieve long-term objectives.

[spark cobalt]

It's much easier to get through a CS curriculum because you have hundreds of students with you doing the same thing, many supporting resources and humans, etc. The sense of doing things yourself and actually getting through it says a lot more imo

[sleek egret]

yes, but most self-taught programmers did not go through the curriculum

note, this doesn't make them bad programmers

[smoky quest]

they also won't have access to the same jobs, opportunities and compensation

[sleek egret]

yes, usually. there are, of course, exceptions

[smoky quest]

possible and plausible are different topics

[sleek egret]

indeed

[spark cobalt]

I don't know how other self taught programmers did things, but at least personally it was very hard to do and took some serious discipline that I really didn't have if I'm gonna be honest

Maybe discipline isn't the right word, but to continue grinding everyday even with absolutely zero support and everyone doubting you is pretty heavy especially if you had a backup (which for me, was college lol)

[digital fjord]

for any given area of CS you want to be employed in (outside of maybe the theory/math), there are vastly more efficient ways to learn the requirements than a bachelors degree. But doing that more or less alone is difficult in that you have to curate your own resources and such, which is more or less impossible without knowing things already. A bootcamp can definitely work here, but most of the good ones tend to be quite hard to pass as well AFAIK.

[sleek egret]

that's self-discipline 🙂

[spark cobalt]

In that respect, was kind of lucky because my dad was a Physics professor (Physics PhD) and he taught me most of the math I know now

[sleek egret]

CS at university isn't there to teach you how to program. the better schools (mostly) expect you to learn that on your own, in your spare time. after all, nearly any random person can learn it on their own.

[spark cobalt]

Isn't it pretty standard across all universities for that? I looked at some community college programs even and it seems to follow that trend

[sleek egret]

almost nothing is standard in US education

[spark cobalt]

Fair enough

[digital fjord]

the way I always heard it explained is that the value of a CS education mainly matters at the senior-ish level and a number of self-taught programmers hit a wall before then (though this was in czechia, so it may differ elsewhere).

[smoky quest]

you would have a first class on intro to programming/algo and then the next languages will be picked up as you go. In general

[spark cobalt]

Ah gotcha

[sleek egret]

sure, early classes are pretty easy, and fairly general/broad. relatively speaking. which is exactly what you'd expect 🙂

[smoky quest]

the wall exists at all levels.
Self taught are great for low skill, grunt work. But they won't be able to handle things that require more abstract thinking/math/etc.

There are also many topics they don't even know exist but are typically taught in school

[sleek egret]

indeed, you're probably not gonna figure out most graph theory, linear algebra, relational algebra, vector calc on your own

[digital fjord]

ye, but that doesn't really matter for a junior-ish dev, no? Just take a ticket and solve it, if you struggle, ask a senior.

[sleek egret]

and if you can, you're a literal uber-genius who will breeze through undergrad in a couple years (if that)

[sleek egret]

eventually, you want to become the senior though

[digital fjord]

ye, I am responding to rec_err in that there is no wall to hit at the more early levels of programming.

[sleek egret]

I went 25 years of my career without needing stochastic calc... then I did. I had to refresh my memory, but there's no way I'd learn that shit on my own in my late 40's.

the upper level education is not for the day to day. it's for the rare occurrences where, otherwise, you'd hit a brick wall

[north tiger]

i can confirm from experience that many of the senior level roles i want require degrees i do not have. it's usually the really big companies that want that. it's by no means impossible to get by without degrees, but i think they are very nice to have

[sleek egret]

I think everyone agrees. not impossible, just more difficult. sometimes much more difficult.

[digital fjord]

yeah, the constant discussion here is pretty much "is it bad advice to tell someone who can choose between college and self-taught to go self-taught" and the consensus is that "yes, it is"

[smoky quest]

senior/junior boundaries aren't about the technical topics. It's about impact, scope and depth

[sleek egret]

in fairness, it's hard for youths to think decades ahead

for sure, I know I didn't 🙂

[smoky quest]

To give some concrete examples:

• Working on SMT/SAT solvers
• Working on detecting bugs at the source code level (or vm level or other) for llvm, android, etc.
• Optimizations for routing packages, schedules, etc.
• Working on extensions to languages/compilers (ex: c, python) to prove specific properties (real time guarantees, safety, etc.)

You will hire junior engineers who can demonstrate skills that can demonstrate they can start contributing to it. Otherwise, where do the senior people who know these things come from if they haven't done it before

[sleek egret]

most of our "junior level" programmers need advanced math and stat to do their job

[digital fjord]

ah, I see what you mean and agree. That's not quite what I was talking about, but I gotta go to sleep, so I won't be able to elaborate :(.

[sleek egret]

a common assignment is "we saw this paper that looks interesting. read it, find/fix any errors, and implement a prototype based on it."

[hardy blade]

Hello friends

[near ocean]

I only asked you how you showcase the one metric you mentioned lol, no need to get so defensive about it

[dreamy spade]

You are asking the wrong person. I’m not an employer nor am I in the position without post-secondary education. Ask the employers who prefer bright candidates without a degree how they verify their skills.

[near ocean]

I dont need to ask recruiters or employers
I can guess what they think from how you post in this channel
Im asking you how you think youre showing people youre intelligent through your CV, personal projects, or education

[dreamy spade]

Im asking you how you think youre showing people youre intelligent through your CV, personal projects, or education

You can’t.

[near ocean]

I can ask, the issue is you can't answer. Why can't you answer?

[dreamy spade]

I gave you an answer.

[near ocean]

Ok, I guess your situation makes sense then

[dreamy spade]

Again…you are making this about me when I was making a generalization.

[north tiger]

maybe let it go. this conversation doesn't seem to be going anywhere

[near ocean]

Speak in general then, how do you think people can showcase intelligence on their CVs if they dont have higher education

[dreamy spade]

I was and It’s still the same answer. The only way to verify one’s intelligence is from interviews.

[near ocean]

So how do people without higher education get into interviews? Do you think everyone that applies should go through a multi hour technical assessment process?

[smoky quest]

the types and complexity of projects and skills demonstrated on their resume can also be used to figure out if they are worth talking to

[sleek egret]

many companies go to universities to recruit

[near ocean]

Also this isnt specifically about you, we get people asking if uni is worth it every other day

[sleek egret]

alumni networks also help a bit after entry level

[ivory sluice]

the only way to verify someone's intelligence is by interviewing them? i think that's a false claim

[sleek egret]

what other way is there? in the real world, I mean

[ivory sluice]

one can be brilliant and interview poorly, though i suppose i forgot we're talking in the context of hiring atm
edit: and vice versa

[sleek egret]

there is a high correlation between intelligence and communications skills

[dreamy spade]

So how do people without higher education get into interviews?

You need to ask someone who got hired without a post secondary education. I would like to know as well.

Do you think everyone that applies should go through a multi hour technical assessment process?

It’s a great idea actually so yes.

[sleek egret]

that said, you don't just hire for intelligence. that is only one factor

[hardy blade]

How can I find a mentor in the work place? A "Mr Miyagi", if you will, who will show me the way and take me from beginner to expert?
i feel like up to this point in my career, i haven't had one like everyone else

[sleek egret]

typically by providing some sort of value

[smoky quest]

you could start by asking your manager or your team lead about it

[dreamy spade]

Well you can’t do that on a CV because applicants could lie.

[sleek egret]

often, but not always, emotional value

[hardy blade]

Unfortunately im not providing any value, im a mediocre developer at best. I'm hoping someone sees potential in me and tries to nurture it, kind of like my mr miyagi analogy and daniel son

[near ocean]

You came in here supporting some guy Reacher's opinion. Didnt you ask him if he's actually involved with hiring and what he looks for or if he's pulling things out of his ass?

[wanton birch]

Anyone here from Canada? I’m just trying to find some local folks to talk to to know more about their field/industry.

[near ocean]

Go ask this Reacher guy what he means by "smart kid"

[sleek egret]

they won't see potential unless you show them potential

[smoky quest]

why would anyone care or go through all these troubles when they could spend more time with their family or having fun?

[sleek egret]

further, true mentorship relationships tend to form when the mentor sees a bit of themselves in the mentee. so a personal relationship of some sort is quite helpful

finally, there are often political benefits for the mentor, either informal or formal.

[dreamy spade]

You came in here supporting some guy Reacher's opinion.

You are misrepresenting my argument. His beliefs don’t reflect my own. I am simply making the argument that there’s conflicting and differences of opinions whether there’s value in having a diploma/degree/post-secondary education in trying to become a software developer.

Didnt you ask him if he's actually involved with hiring and what he looks for or if he's pulling things out of his ass?

No and it doesn’t matter. His stance is archetypal to what others also believe in the value of degrees.

[ivory sluice]

okay we can leave it at that, thank you

[ivory sluice]

have you had a lot of different managers/bosses throughout your career?
i think luck must be a decent part of it
most managers i've had did not have the heart of a teacher

nor did they have much that i wanted to emulate/model myself after

[sleek egret]

most of what people call "luck" is actually taking advantage of situations as they present themselves (for "good luck") or falling into traps (for "bad luck")

[wanton birch]

Most adverts do ask for degrees. However, I also see them mention “or equivalent experience”

[ivory sluice]

yeah true, if your objective is to find a great mentor and all your peers and seniors are toxic then you have to take the steps to somehow change or more realistically, leave that environment

[sleek egret]

problem is that most people with degrees also have the equivalent experience

[hardy blade]

yeah thats a good point. im not sure what to do then, i feel like ive hit a wall in my career

[sleek egret]

one must consider that if all your peers and seniors are "toxic" then perhaps, the problem is oneself

[sleek egret]

how often have you gone out for drinks with collegues/seniors? how often have you invited them to your home or activities? or the reverse?

[ivory sluice]

yeah if you job hop 3x and literally every single coworker sucks the problem is likely you. but i was exaggerating. it's not hard to have a string of bad bosses

[sleek egret]

no one will mentor anyone (except for the formal kind which isn't, IMO, real) without some sort of real relationship

[hardy blade]

Not often at my most recent company because i work remote and my team is in a completely different state

[north tiger]

it's only fun to teach people that are passionate and want to learn

[dreamy spade]

i feel like ive hit a wall in my career

At least you have a career.

[hardy blade]

but the team that is in the main location do often do meetups, drinks, hang out at the house

[ivory sluice]

let's not react to others seeking help with negativity

[hardy blade]

I never said every single coworker sucks, they are actually pretty nice people

[wanton birch]

Well obviously if both can demonstrate equivalent experience, then having a degree is just a bonus. I was thinking more so about folks without the degree vs with degree where the former has got experience.

[sleek egret]

that is indeed one of the problems with being remote. can't do much about that.

[ivory sluice]

my reply wasn't for you, sorry.

[wanton birch]

Although it’s weird to think how they got the job where they gained the experience lol

[hardy blade]

ah gotcha , no problem

[ivory sluice]

can you fly out to HQ once in a while?

[hardy blade]

no unfortunately, the company is cheap about it. There is an office local to my area, but i dont know anyone there

[ivory sluice]

but are they also devs?

[hardy blade]

yes, its a tech hub

are you suggesting that i should start going to the office more to build connections with those outside of my team and potentially find a mentor?

[sleek egret]

most companies do little to nothing to foster real team building. when at such companies, it is incumbent on you to form relationships with other people.

[ivory sluice]

how many years in/what phase of your career are you in?

[sleek egret]

you're not a child any more where adults will help you just to help you. most of your peers are either rivals or don't care. so it's on YOU to make friends/allies. that is the sad reality of life.

[hardy blade]

10 years (or 1 year repeated 10 times in my case) across 4 companies, with the latest being only 6 months of tenure

[sleek egret]

around your age, I started to do things like stopping by the sales desk to chat with the sales guys on my way back from lunch every day or two.

also other groups in my company. it really opened my eyes in how other people viewed the company, our products, customers, developers, etc

[ivory sluice]

i would try and leverage your existing remote network and see if you can find a connection to someone what works in the local office, because.. why not? unless your company is the type to discourage cross-talk between teams for some reason.

idk if you can just like, show up one day (probably not). but maybe ask if they're going to have company events or meetups nearer to you

[hardy blade]

yeah they definitely do have company events, such as tech talks, maybe i can start attending those

[sleek egret]

or hell, just suggest your team meet (and then ask for people outside the team for "additional perspectives")

[ivory sluice]

that sounds like a great place to start
don't be weird and ask everyone you meet to be your mentor as your opening line

[sleek egret]

we're currently mostly remote so we have work gatherings a couple times a year in "fun" places

[ivory sluice]

even networking with peers or juniors will be valuable so i think you have only to gain by attending them

[sleek egret]

it feels like we get more done in a few days co-located in a big rented house than we do in weeks remotely. plus everyone goes out to eat or gamble or whatever.

[sleek egret]

lol, "don't be weird" is good advice 🙂

[hardy blade]

Yeah ill be honest, work from home is starting to get stale. Its tough to relax here and maximize productivity at the same time, i need a separation of environment

[ivory sluice]

yes that is huge, and separation from family/housemates if you live with others

i moved recently and it's been so beneficial to have a dedicated office room with a door that i can shut and not enter unless i'm working

[sleek egret]

I don't think younger folks really understand the impact on career advancement that 100% remote has. if you are always remote the chance that you will be viewed as "labor" increase substantially.

you have to be truly outstanding to stand out and gain respect from senior execs. and the opportunities to demonstrate that will come up far less often

[north tiger]

never having to commute again is a far better benefit imo

so many hours of my life lost

[sleek egret]

fair enough. if you're cognizant and aware of the tradeoffs, then good for you

[north tiger]

plenty of companies have opportunities for team building too. remote has always been a situation where you have to overcommunicate in a lot of ways and forming real relationships is part of the game

[sleek egret]

indeed

[smoky quest]

That's why I am pointing you towards your manager and team lead. It's their job to help you grow and guide you

You need to have some career conversations with them, set goals and help you understand what you need to work on

[hardy blade]

But why is this the case? Why do I need to be there in person if I can see and hear my coworkers remotely? I certainly don't need to use my other 3 senses around my coworkers (smell, taste, touch). given todays tools, one could implement a virtual office (i think its called gather.town)

[smoky quest]

It's not ideal to try the emulate on site while being remote, the same way it's not ideal to emulate remote while being on site.

Being remote while being junior also means you would be missing on many opportunities to learn and grow and meet other folks not in your immediate team

[hardy blade]

ah taht is true, cant imagine what its like for the juniors

[modest kraken]

i know the elements of python pretty well, but I don't know how to create large, multi-module nested projects. Where can i bridge this gap?

[gritty rivet]

There's no magic fix, just keep practicing with projects that will make you stretch more and more. Or refactor existing projects.

[lilac fractal]

@modest kraken Well something like this would require working on a project that merits that. If there is something in your daily life you want automated, you could create a project to do so, then break it up into subparts which would warrant multi-module, nested projects

Or you can contribute to open source

But yeah the practice of managing a large project comes after you have the idea

[timber flame]

also most larger projects end up split into many modules and nesting structures because as an individual there is only so much of a codebase you can keep in your mind at a time, so any larger project tends to end up with that kind of structure, its not that the designer may have started off intending it, but you build up a layer to some point, want to expand on it without breaking the existing and start work on the next layer, somewhere else you start fleshing out some other functionality that doesnt fit with the existing stuff and so on and so on, until its a larger structure

[smoky quest]

what's your current situation career-wise?

[modest kraken]

I’m a student

[smoky quest]

oh yeah, you have plenty of time.
But as usual, it's a combination of reading books and practicing. For school, especially in the first year, your projects will be pretty small and fit within one file. As the scope of your projects increase, you will start to see a need to split them. A 10,000 lines file would be a mess

[modest kraken]

I already know how to split it into multiple files and make modules, I just don’t know at what point it would be best to make nested modules and how I would do that.

[smoky quest]

same than your first level module: when it's too large.

[modest kraken]

I see

[smoky quest]

and add on top the reusability

[modest kraken]

Are there any resources to show how to scale projects?

[timber flame]

scale as in increase complexity, or architecting for much more data to process?

[smoky quest]

code complete, righting software, design patterns, large scale c++, pragmatic programmer, clean code, etc.

https://aosabook.org/en/index.html is cool too

[smoky quest]

by the way, I want to give props to your thinking!
The architecture and how things fit together would typically come much later in the career. So it's great to start thinking about it right now

[modest kraken]

Thanks 🙏

[vapid jay]

Would cyber security be the best career choice for money and time?

[white relic]

Minmaxing your career based on earnings is probably not in your long term best interests, but you can certainly make a great career out of cyber security if that is what you're asking.
I recommend picking a field you have at least some interest in besides money.

[timber flame]

find what your interested in, and then search for where you can grow to in that field, entry level jobs and top level jobs don't always end up in the same places

[gritty rivet]

There is no "best career choice" that strangers on the internet can choose for you. I agree with Ryan that personal interest is a very important factor.

One thing to understand about cyber security is that even more than in other fields, experience is king. At the entry level it's notoriously competitive and hard to get in, especially if you have no other relevant experience.

[vapid jay]

where can i learn cyber sec programming? for beginners

[gritty rivet]

TryHackMe and HackTheBox are fun... Not really focused on programming but an easy way to start learning some basics

[vapid jay]

I know some basics

classes, switches and that stuff but when it comes to map(), and all that advanced stuff my mind goes insane

[silver surge]

Can building projects on your resume help land an interview? And if so does anyone have good suggestions for projects to start?

[sour tartan]

self-driven projects are a great thing to put on your resume

[sour tartan]

!kindling

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[silver surge]

Ooh thank! @sour tartan I've been studying like crazy to learn Python as my first programming language and I'm finally at the point where it's time to start improve my skills. Thanks for the website.

[dreamy spade]

I’m trying to cover all aspects of Full Stack Development.

I have fetched data from the backend and displayed the data from the frontend.

I have connected to a mySQL database from the front-end

I want to know what more I can do so I can be more job ready for full stack development

[true harness]

usually if you're interested in the project you'll be more likely to finish it. what are you interested in?

[true harness]

have you hosted it on a VPS? or used docker? what about GitHub actions or other CI/CD? unit testing?

[dreamy spade]

I don’t know what vps is so no. I used GitHub before so yes. What is a docker?

I don’t know how I can do unit testing because my code is O(1).

[near ocean]

It sounds like your code isnt that complex
You grab data from a 3rd party source, do you transform it in any way, do you process it? Or do you just pass it to some html template

[dreamy spade]

It’s just JSON data

and it gets rendered into HTML

[near ocean]

What kind of data is it? Surely there are things you could do with the raw data besides plain visualisations

[dreamy spade]

ID, titles, images and descriptions.

[near ocean]

What im trying to say is that there must be something you can do with the raw data thats more than simple visualisations

[sleek egret]

software being useful for something? that's crazy talk!

[near ocean]

Doesnt have to be useful but also simple http request into html template is something people can do after a 4 week "bootcamp"
I know cause i've watched this happen in real time

[primal tangle]

yo

[true harness]

I don’t know what vps is so no.
good time to learn about using them. it's a virtual private server, you usually use them for hosting things
I used GitHub before so yes.
GitHub actions is CI/CD, not just storing files. it's something you might want to add to your projects to give them a little more "production readiness"
What is a docker?
used for deploying code. learn it
I don’t know how I can do unit testing because my code is O(1).
that shows you don't quite know what unit testing is. or potentially what time complexity is. even constant time functions can be tested. both are valuable and good to know

[pine sleet]

Lot more to being a software engineer than just writing code ^^
Learn all of the tooling that surrounds and supports your code

[true harness]

it's why when people ask something along the lines of "can I be a software dev with [language]", the answer is always "wellllll". you might have one main language, but you're going to be using a bunch of other tools that may have their own DSL

[true harness]

I have connected to a mySQL database from the front-end
wait does this mean your frontend was directly connected to the DB? or your backend was

[pine sleet]

Well that's... insecure

[true harness]

I am not!

[pine sleet]

TIL psvm was a database

[sleek egret]

you are not what?

[true harness]

well, it was meant to be "I am not insecure" as a joke, implying I was insecure, but I guess that didn't quite work out

[sleek egret]

or maybe I just have no sense of humor?

[dim bay]

Hello guys, does game developers get paid less than similar years of experience /skill level in other software jobs?

[near ocean]

Generally yes, game dev has higher hours, crunch periods, toxic environments and other bad things going on

[sleek egret]

yes

[dreamy spade]

that shows you don't quite know what unit testing is. or potentially what time complexity is. even constant time functions can be tested. both are valuable and good to know

Uhmmm. I have studied the big o notation in college. What purpose is there unit testing a function that is constant?

[dim bay]

I have 2 years work experience in gamedev is it worth to shift careers?

[muted nexus]

You can potentially get paid better in other areas and probably be in a less "crunch" environment. You have to decide if that's a good trade off for you (I assume there are other aspects of your gamedev job that you enjoy)

[near ocean]

A function to convert celsius to faren is constant time but if it gives you shit results its worthless
You can and should test constant time functions

[dreamy spade]

I can see why you would need test cases for that function but public static void is suggesting that I should make a test case for literally accessing an array of a JSON data.

I either access and fetch JSON data or not..I can see if it doesn't render.