career-advice

[smoky quest]

Datascience is more difficult to get into without degree or background. So webdev, especially frontend will be an easier entry point

What does that mean? Are you graduating?

[vapid jay]

Im a computer science student but still first year soo i wanna start asap and get in the game

[vapid jay]

Already graduated.

[smoky quest]

then the next stage is to apply for a job

[smoky quest]

Then explore the field. There is more to CS than datascience and backend web. It will help deepen your expertise and see better what you like and dislike

[smoky quest]

I am also confused how you graduated from a CS degree with no coding background

[vapid jay]

ngl Yes but front end is really boring and in my uni we are still learning JAVA loops and the people in my class are stuck on them

[gritty rivet]

The one that's best is the one you are most interested in. There are plenty of jobs in both areas but you need to be good at what you do, and that comes from persistent engagement

[smoky quest]

oh wait, I misread. You said "already working", not "already working on it"

[last crane]

I survived 5 layoffs, the 6th layoff got me. may my job of 4 years RIP

[smoky quest]

java is one of the most used backend language. If you want a backend job, that's definitely something to learn

[vapid jay]

im thinking python for backend

[smoky quest]

then learn python. It's just a language

[vapid jay]

since looking here in www.python.org/jobs/ i can see most are back end related

and seems pretty active not dead job

[smoky quest]

Then it's a matter of going back to school (even part night), doing some bootcamp or taking the self taught route.
Either way it won't happen in 2 weeks. It will take months, if not year of effort. The paths and compensation won't also be the same and the competition will vary based on how closely you match the job requirements and your location/competition

[sleek egret]

wait wut? you mean a random person can't take a few weeks of classes and slide into a $200k job?

say it ain't so!

[vapid jay]

small question since you seem to have experience in the tech area

do comapnies install a time tracking app on your pc since rn my video editing jobs the time tracking is just annoying and imposible to work with

[smoky quest]

you can always work for your family

[vapid jay]

and i don't wanna have to deal with tracking every mouse - keyboard click time i spend or whatever

[smoky quest]

that's up to your employer and local laws

[vapid jay]

in general would it happen ? like do most companies force the tracking software

[smoky quest]

it can depending on the employer and local laws

[vapid jay]

ok thanks I will hopefully be able to force myself to learn

[smoky quest]

whether you would want to work for such company, that's a different question 😉

[toxic agate]

hello

[true harness]

stop spamming

[sleek egret]

In 30+ years of working, I have never had a time tracker nor have I asked any of my staff to have one

[vapid jay]

@sleek egret well trust me its just annoying my whole time of working its just stress and you cannt be creative

[sleek egret]

people cannot be trusted

[vapid jay]

i understand but time tracking with screenshot and tracking-mouse keyboard and url clicks is a bit much

[toxic agate]

Did any one try Flutter

And how is it comparing with other platforms such java kotlin swift

Try to be professional in your major and you will take a lot of offers

And how you can do that by chosing something you love and think and make you enjoy not only for salary or things like that

Salary is important of course but don't choose you jop or major depending on it

[vapid jay]

i like coding so thats not a problem

[toxic agate]

Coding is main thing you need to go through and choose a something specific

Lot of people obsessed about coding but there are not like some majors like webdev or ai

[gritty rivet]

I feel like it's pretty uncommon for software engineers to be subjected to that level of surveillance, may vary by country though

[vapid jay]

i wanna work remotly

[vapid jay]

im interested in backend

[toxic agate]

Sweet learn then django if you are love python

[vapid jay]

i have a tutorial thats like 12 hours so long road

[toxic agate]

Or js or php if you want another language

[vapid jay]

also php im also intereste in that but first python

[toxic agate]

I advice you to learn by documents instead of vedios

[sleek egret]

terms like "backend" and "fullstack" are mostly used by web developers. and web development is just a fraction of the field of software development

[toxic agate]

Because vedios are waste of time actually

[true harness]

depends on the video

[gritty rivet]

That part was clear... Remote jobs are not typically international though if that's what you mean

[toxic agate]

And if you have a conflict or something don't understand it then check a vedio

[sleek egret]

indeed. studies have shown that videos and lectures are great for making people feel like they have learned something but, when tested, it turns out they didn't actually learn that much

[toxic agate]

Actually the most of them

[vapid jay]

still possible

[true harness]

sure. i agree. but there do exist good videos

[sleek egret]

I think video is best to inspire and tickle interests. then you need to go read and practice to actually learn the topic.

[vapid jay]

idk about that

so your saying 1 hour of reading = 4 hours of video ? or something like that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBzwzrDvZ18 thats the video im planning to watch and learn fully

[sleek egret]

international remote work is mostly done through agencies. this is because most nations have various laws that restrict the hiring of foreigners. this includes the USA, EU, etc. i.e. most "rich" nations.

[toxic agate]

Yeah i agree but also the good ones don't teach you like the documents

[toxic agate]

For me

[sleek egret]

if they did, the video would be like 2000 hours long

[vapid jay]

yea i get that part

ngl @sleek egret I think its personal preference

[toxic agate]

Yeah that's what I'm saying but documents teach you every things and save your time

[sleek egret]

it's not. multiple studies have proven that videos and lectures do not teach effectively

[vapid jay]

is there any book u wanna recommend or document ? for backend

[sleek egret]

what they can do is get people interested in topics

also, just as an FYI, multiple studies over the last few decades have shown that "learning styles" is a myth. it simply doesn't exist. nearly all humans learn the same way.

different people can like certain education styles more. but that doesn't make them more effective.

[toxic agate]

Actually I'm not learning backend but the google full of good things

[vapid jay]

watching a video is a good way to learn anything fast not the best just gets the job done

[sleek egret]

that's the thing, you're not actually learning it! you're getting interested in it. not the same thing.

[vapid jay]

your still learning it just more general that more in depth

[sleek egret]

no, it's the difference between being interested in music vs knowing how to play an instrument

[vapid jay]

idk if I agree fully
anyways are there some good books or documentation for python backend learning

[sleek egret]

I'm interested in blacksmithing. I love watching videos about how and why blacksmiths do their thing. But I don't fool myself into believing that I actually know anything about blacksmithing.

[vapid jay]

uk we could have different opinions its normal

thanks alot for your advice

[gritty rivet]

While reading is better than watching, doing is better than reading 🙂 Build stuff and then as you identify what you need to learn next, it's easier to know what to read.

If you're just starting out with Python, Automate the Boring Stuff is a very popular beginner's book. If you want something more advanced it depends what you're trying to learn but you can find lists of recommendations.

[rose perch]

Yeah, if you want to hire a foreigner directly they better be like a world renowned leader / inventor of what they do, with extremely specific skills. (usually they want you to exhaust your search for candidates in your own country at the very least)

[fervent grove]

Hi guys,
I am trying to highlight the most important points of my data science internship for a job reference, is there some norm?

[reef quarry]

Hi all. Is there a difference between a Python developer and a Backend developer? Don't they both have the same work responsibilities? Just Backend Developer might involve other languages(.net, nodeJs, etc)?

[near ocean]

No, python can be used in other places besides webdev

A python dev at a bank for example probably wont be working with flask or django or any web tech

[spark cobalt]

There is no norm. Different companies approach internships differently, different stages of products would probably have different work done, the team dynamic affects what you'd probably work on, your experience, among other things. Gather a list of things you learned from your internship then just process of elimination or find ways to merge different bullet points together.

[vapid jay]

gys what are some new it trends i should try to learn sidewise my degree which will improve my portfolio and get me employed?

new trending skills in it etc..?

[near ocean]

For what kind of software/industry?

[summer roost]

That's like asking if there's a difference between Mexican restaurant and fast food restaurant. The two are orthogonal, and give you information about different dimensions.

"Python developer" tells you what programming language is used, but not where the code you write will run. "Backend developer" tells you that the code will run on servers somewhere (as opposed to on the end user's PC, or their game console, or their fridge, or a robot, or something), but doesn't tell you anything about what programming language the code will be written in.

[vapid jay]

like ill persure BCA(bachelors in computer applications) degree which get u employed in tech companies, but just degree is not important, what skills must be good to learn on the way??

[near ocean]

Doing what in a tech company? There are so many industries that take on software developers

[signal crane]

I lost my ability to speak... Can I still get some job in computer science field

[near ocean]

Yes, it would be illegal for anyone to discriminate against you because of a disability

[vapid jay]

like u know modern day industries bro

[signal crane]

I mean you need to communicate ryt

[near ocean]

First thing i would recommend is figuring out what kind of software you like to develop

[signal crane]

I have partially damaged vocal chords and chronic voice pain..

[near ocean]

Employers can and should make reasonable adjustments to accommodate you

[signal crane]

I am partially audible tho

[signal crane]

Freelancing requires no voice ryt?

[near ocean]

I dont know, i dont freelance

[signal crane]

Alr

[vapid jay]

what's in freelancing sir?

[tribal horizon]

@signal crane have you considered tts

[summer roost]

That sounds like a less common disability, so employers might not have a lot of experience accommodating it (like they would for vision loss or sight lots, for instance). But, it sounds like it would be easier to accommodate than either of those.

It's true that (at least in the countries whose laws I'm familiar with) it would be illegal to discriminate against you based on a disability, and it's also true that your disability would be particularly easy to work around, I think.

[near ocean]

I mean we mostly do our comms in chat apps anyway, i dont see how it would be hard to accommodate a disability like this

You probably wont be given presentation heavy tasks but those suck anyway so its a good thing overall

[summer roost]

And text to speech tech is pretty good at this point. Especially if you're a fast typist, it doesn't seem like difficulty speaking would slow you down too much.

[lyric kindle]

Hello I'm looking for ideas on what projects I can make to build my career portfolio. Any suggestions on what project I should do? Thanks

[gritty rivet]

!kindling

It depends on a) what skills you are trying to demonstrate and b) whatever is interesting to you personally. But check the list below. 👇

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[spiral mica]

Hello there

I have got a simple yet hard question for me.

I'm considering making a new project, a discord bot. But I'm not sure if i should make the bot on this account or on another account. I want to keep this account for my friends, talking to them, having fun but at the same time I want to make the bot on this account (The application). But for some odd reason I think making the bot on a seperate, professional account would be better. but im not sure

[near ocean]

Thats not really a career question, besides, what does it mean to make a discord bot on "this" account? Do you mean a self bot?

[sly light]

what are some chatgpt tricks

i need 50 messages to get voice verify

[spiral mica]

to make an "application" on discord.com/developers, you get what i mean

[near ocean]

I dont think you should worry about it too much, its a discord bot, probably wont make or break your career

[peak halo]

!otn a a discord bot broke my career

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: Added a-discord-bot-broke-my-career to the names list.

[spiral mica]

Fair, but you never know of course

[near ocean]

Would you create an organization for yourself to appear more professional on github? Its of little consequence, either way

[true harness]

you kinda do know, though

[ivory igloo]

hey guys

i am confused about which course to take in college.....i am kinda good at programming and have a bit interest in space and physics.....also robots and iot devices and stuff.....can anyone help me in picking a course

[gritty rivet]

Read the course descriptions, check RateMyProfessor, flip a coin...

[hearty island]

i can advocate for RMP. saved my grade many times.

[true harness]

i think they mean "major", or equivalent

[true harness]

do you have to choose right away? take introductory courses in each, see which you like

[ivory igloo]

is ratemyprofessor some kinda website ?

idk choosing a course seems like a big deal.....i dont wanna choose wrong one....idk i am just confused

[gritty rivet]

Yes, where you can rate your professors.

[ivory igloo]

umm......yh ryt...ugh wht a drag.... lotta work.....lol thanks

[hearty island]

omg omg omg omg omg omg omg time to move to kansas

[gritty rivet]

Depending on the school it may not be a big deal to attend for a few weeks and change

You can also reach out to profs with questions or to see the syllabus. They may or may not answer

[true harness]

huh?

[ivory igloo]

yh...ig i can do tht....lets see....thanks

[hearty island]

uh... yeah right... what a drag... lotta work... lol thanks

[ivory igloo]

ntg nvm...thanks

[true harness]

sure

[hearty island]

guys if i do manage to get this honeywell aerospace positon as an associate program manager the median salary is over 100K. that's fucking massive

[gritty rivet]

I was assuming by "course" you meant "class" as opposed to "major" (this is the terminology in the US, maybe elsewhere is different)

[hearty island]

Kansas City is one of the most affordable cities in the midwest

[ivory igloo]

yh i meant major....lol yh terms are different at different places

well i got one more doubt.....this isnt related to career tho

why cant i turn on my mic on the voice chat in this server ?

[hearty island]

you need voice permissions. i think you have to send a number of messages (pls don't spam) to get it

[gritty rivet]

Ah, makes sense. I agree with public's advice then

[gritty rivet]

I've never been but I just imagine an endless strip of BBQ joints and nothing else 😉

[hearty island]

well hopefully they have gyms and shit

[near ocean]

I'm sorry sign me the fuck up? 🤤🤤

[hearty island]

mar come with me

why did i get a pithink

[true harness]

you're in Kansas now, Damian

[hearty island]

no no i'm in NY rn

oh god

ok time for my interview for UCSD!

um it's 11:00 they haven't started my interview 😦. wtf.

[true harness]

they're always late

[sleek egret]

they're californians <shrug>

[uncut quest]

That's when I start panicking, thinking I misread the time zone or sth

[wheat sail]

I am thinking about learning web scraping

where will I find clients for it?

[sleek egret]

you mean code or people who will pay you?

[vapid jay]

ayo

[gritty rivet]

If you're willing to charge $3/hr or whatever, check out Fiverr and Upwork. If that's too low for you to start out at, don't bother

[proper bramble]

anyone know python language?

[hearty island]

i think my UCSD interview went well

[sleek egret]

I hear that at least a few do

[hearty island]

they asked a lot of follow up questions which is usually a good sign

[proper bramble]

what do you do?

[sleek egret]

that's good. questions are an indicator of interest

[sleek egret]

right now? currently, I'm mostly I losing money

[proper bramble]

idk? what are you talking to about

[sleek egret]

and procrastinating from doing more reconciliation for our taxes

[indigo tartan]

guys

[warped token]

Hey all. I am a sophomore at an engineering institute in India. I would like to start applying for internships for this summer. Can you people help me out on how I can go about doing this?

[indigo tartan]

i started to learn python

[warped token]

I am fairly good with python I think. I have made a few deep learning projects here and there. But I have no experience whatsoever.

[indigo tartan]

i watched some basic lessons.I learnt django a bit.But i didnt like web developing.I tried to learn neural networks.But i feel like i just waste my time.Do i need to buy some courses?I dont think that i will learn much from youtube

What do you think about it

[sleek egret]

you need to accept that learning how to write software is like learning how to play music. sure you can get to garage band level by just futzing around, but to become good or great, you need a combination of theory (by reading a lot) and practice (by doing a lot). lots and lots of practice.

[silver bane]

resources for Freelnace or Contract Python job ?

[sleek egret]

so read about a topic. then use it (realizing that you don't really understand it yet). then re-read. then use it again. rinse and repeat.

[indigo tartan]

thank you for advise

[stray yew]

any advice on finding internships, besides linkedin

looking to make some friends who are in the same boat as me lol

[buoyant seal]

checking local to your country and area hiring web site ^_^. than more local, then better.
indeed.com btw is often used besides linkedin

[stray yew]

ill try out indeed

ty ty

[buoyant seal]

puns intended? ^_^

[stray yew]

haha of course

[hearty island]

really? indeed is used more than linkedin? according to who?

[gritty rivet]

Joinhandshake.com

[stray yew]

will check that out too, thank you!

[noble tusk]

Will possible employer will look at my codeforces ranking or leetcode, are those show experience like github projects (if you dont have them) ?

[gritty rivet]

Based on the sheer number of search results, seems like LinkedIn may have more but I don't think that was the case when I was last searching over a year ago

[gritty rivet]

Depends on the employer but generally no. The point of leetcode is to practice for technical interviews

[stray yew]

I wonder if I can get a bot to work on Handshake, its worked very well on linkedin and im guessing it recycles allot of the same jobs

[true harness]

why use a bot. you're just going to get rejected from more jobs

[stray yew]

LOL #real

[true harness]

applying to jobs you're grossly underqualified for isn't helping anyone

[near ocean]

How did you get a bot to work "really well" on linkedin? Most of the jobs arent easy apply and even those that are could have intermediary questions

[spark cobalt]

Shouldn't be too hard. There's only so many questions asked, if it runs into a question never seen before, could just send a notification to fill it out.

[sleek egret]

it's possible but unlikely

[wheat wigeon]

Hey, I'm in high school and I'd like to know what you would recommend me to look into if I want to get a job in programming. I know the basics of java and python. Thanks and sorry if my english is kinda bad, I'm from Germany

[vapid jay]

Machine Learning or Data analytics would be worth looking into

[wheat wigeon]

where to learn machine learning, because every youtube video I watched I just copied the code and didn't understand a thing

[vapid jay]

Shoot not sure since I’ve been using a mix of YouTube and Reddit myself however I’m sure there’s a resource channel in the discord or someone from #data-science-and-ml would know better than me

[true harness]

at University. are you in Germany right now?

[wheat wigeon]

still in high school...

jup

[true harness]

I think @inland trout is in Germany? maybe he can give more targeted advice

[gritty rivet]

I'm in the US and know nothing about the job market in Germany but with that caveat... The main thing to look into is what university you're going to go to, the rest will sort itself out

[sleek egret]

first thing is to go to university and major in something technical/mathy

[sleek egret]

by "high school", do you mean gymnasium?

[wheat wigeon]

jup

[sleek egret]

I thought it was "ja" or "jawohl"?

[wheat wigeon]

"jup" is colloquial

[wheat wigeon]

you're right

[sleek egret]

sounds like a degradation of good deutschlander kulture by the decadent americaners

[brazen island]

You'll be fine, I wouldn't worry too much about career stuff in high school

[sleek egret]

back in ye olden days, sciddie would already be a papa

[brazen island]

Luckily we aint in the old days so they can focus on runescape or whatever and take the rest one step at a time 🙂

[sleek egret]

kids are too soft these days, IMO

[rose perch]

typically there isn't time to investigate all of these for applicants unless they are very strongly considering hiring you. Too much to look through otherwise

[peak halo]

out of curiosity, when you were in whatever age demographic "kids these days" encompasses, how would those in your current age demographic finish "kids these days are ..."?

[stray yew]

I don't do that, would be a waste of time

[stray yew]

only easy apply, I've done a ton of manual ones of company websites

[true harness]

your bot though

[sleek egret]

they said we were soft, entitled, lazy and stupid. and they were right.

[stray yew]

yeah for internships, all stuff I could do

[oblique grove]

how ive worked in a few internships for small companies working with python, however i lack design principles and oop design (i dont use classes at all just functions), i understand what all of these are however whenever i look into a professional github repo i struggle to understand

• their design principles
• when to create new python files, how to name them, etc
• more organized

[true harness]

what have you been doing in your internships then. just writing code without supervision?

[oblique grove]

YEAH its really bad, very little guidance and for a small company
i know SOLID principles and design patterns are important but how does one learn this? im not the biggest fan of just reading and not practicing

[stray yew]

???

[true harness]

so practice? make bigger projects

[oblique grove]

yeah dunno why im so afraid of that

i literally just need to make bigger projects

[sleek egret]

afraid of what?

[sour tartan]

i understand the feeling: it's daunting to start a project.

[sleek egret]

is it? I love starting. it's the finishing that I have problems with

[sour tartan]

i guess we have different experiences.

[sleek egret]

inconceivable!

[smoky quest]

projects don't start big or pretty.
They start small and scrappy. What you see on a github project is not their first commit, but their latest state, after many iterations.
So don't worry about how large they are or how your code should be perfect from the get go. The main thing is to get started somewhere

[sour tartan]

@oblique grove it can help to give yourself permission to not finish if you don't want to.

[oblique grove]

gotcha, im main interested in a pragmatic version of design principles. ive read that SOLID and other designs dont fit that sometimes, what do you think i should focus on?

I also heard that tdd is a good idea to start early on in a project. i think its worth learning right?

[smoky quest]

read books and practice.

The head first book on design pattern is a great start

[stuck mantle]

Looking for the best course for about a month to get back into python?
I’m in medschool and I have about 8 weeks off for the summer break. I am familiar with python and took courses during college but looking for a site with practice problems to become familiar with the language again.

If anyone knows a good machine learning book for python that would be great too. Thanks!

[wanton birch]

Anyone here do Data Science/Machine Learning stuff professionally? I need some advice on types of projects for my resume.

[pine sleet]

Hello! This channel is for discussing careers and work. Please use #1035199133436354600 for python related questions

[pastel thunder]

sorry, i thought i was in data science channel

[pastel thunder]

yeah just ask. dont ask if someone can advice you

[arctic root]

Actually I need the same thing

Anyone here can share an example of data scientist portofolio

[mint oracle]

what's about this type of project
http://julesvernetrilogy.com/
i found this is a interesting project

[mint oracle]

what is ur recent project?

[arctic root]

None actually

[mint oracle]

so create one start from easy!
Watch utube tutorials

[arctic root]

Bro what is that is it ds related

Is that data science project

[mint oracle]

yeah!

[arctic root]

Btw what do u think is the easiest project for beginner

[mint oracle]

visuilzation on mnist , titanic dataset, boston housing

[arctic root]

I thought mnist was for a data set and not for visualizing

[mint oracle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdfbcdP75KI&list=PLeo1K3hjS3uu7clOTtwsp94PcHbzqpAdg

[arctic root]

Parker u study data science?

[mint oracle]

nope, but i was

[arctic root]

Thx for sharing the vid

[mint oracle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGtDTjYs3xc&list=PLeo1K3hjS3utJFNGyBpIvjWgSDY0eOE8S

[arctic root]

U quit?

[mint oracle]

yeah!

[arctic root]

How and why lol

[mint oracle]

nicholas renotte
codebasic
krish naik has good ds video

[mint oracle]

no valid reason

lol i studied around 1 years then left

[arctic root]

I see what u do now

[mint oracle]

try to win kaggle competition

[arctic root]

Ggs so ur still on data science

[mint oracle]

smokin

[arctic root]

start a yt channel man is it hard getting a job lol

[arctic root]

I see

[mint oracle]

You can change what you do, but you can't change what you want

[spark cobalt]

What

[vapid jay]

Hello, I have work experience so if anyone works for any companies anything to with tech and online please may you link them. I am 14 if that helps.

[near ocean]

You dont have work experience at 14

[vapid jay]

It is like a very short intern, and many companies look forward to that. You have to do it when you are in year 10 in the UK.

[near ocean]

I dont think that counts as work experience, at 14 the best thing you can do is keep your grades up and get into Uni

[last crane]

or write your own site/package/app.

[vapid jay]

it is from the school you have to do it, it is compulsory

https://www.groundwork.org.uk/improving-your-employability/arranging-your-own-work-experience-placement/

[glass urchin]

Ask in school then, a lot o things weren't allowed in mine

[vapid jay]

for info

[near ocean]

Ok? Its a 2 week thing where you shadow professionals, its not going to matter to anyone else if youre trying to find a job

[vapid jay]

im just seeing if anyone works for a company that i can contact

[near ocean]

Plenty of people here work, what would you ask if someone said yes?

[vapid jay]

for the contact info for the job and then ask them if i can do it

also it would be prefferable if it is online

[near ocean]

You being 14 blocks you from working at most places doing pretty much anything

[vapid jay]

companies will let you, some may not

[near ocean]

Im willing to bet no company would hire a 14 yo to do software stuff

[wanton birch]

Ok. I did ask. So now what’s your answer? What’s your take on types of projects I am asking about?

[vapid jay]

some will

[spark cobalt]

It is illegal to do so.

[near ocean]

There are better, more productive things you could be doing at 14 than chasing after this mythical company that you think would hire you...

[vapid jay]

its a 1-2 week intern IT is compulsory to do it in year 10 in the UK it is not optional

[vapid jay]

not*

[near ocean]

Youre asking about doing this 2 week placement thing? Ask your school lol, what do you think strangers on discord would do to help

[spark cobalt]

To be actively working on software requires that you sign several contracts, all of which are not considered legal if you're a minor. Furthermore, it is common for the first 1-2 weeks for any professional onboarding to not work at software as well.

You would be expected to shadow, NOT touch any software or code.

[vapid jay]

the school said you have to find it yourself

[near ocean]

Did they not give you a list of places that do this kind of placement?

[spark cobalt]

How are your classmates getting these roles?

[vapid jay]

now you have to search on google or something in-person

[vapid jay]

my freind got one from a company in london, online

[spark cobalt]

Have you asked him for tips on how to get one?

You should gather common traits of those that landed one and try to replicate the same thing.

[vapid jay]

he used google and google maps

[last crane]

there are labor laws for teenagers, those laws make it tough to hire someone in there teens, when most of the time you need them 24/7

[spark cobalt]

That's not help, that's just bullshitting. Find someone that will actually give you tips and actually show you their process

[vapid jay]

you dont understand forget what i said

i was just looking for a company and said if you could link an email or their website i will do the rest

[last crane]

tons of companies on linkedin

[vapid jay]

ty ill look there

[spark cobalt]

Try just copying what others did

Or talking to older grades in your school/alumnis and see how they got their externship

If it's compulsory, there must be a standard way everyone's doing this that you're not doing or seeing

[vapid jay]

there is none thay said to ask family or freinds and stuff like that, which i have alr done

[spark cobalt]

If your friend got his job through Google, then probably ran into the same roadblock as you but somehow got over it

[near ocean]

My guy, the website you sent has a search function for projects that do these placements

[spark cobalt]

Just to be clear, "Google" is not an actionable strategy for something like this. He must have done something more... like what he Googled, what sites he was on, using resources school gave

[vapid jay]

whatever

[pastel thunder]

Actually I thought you were gonna tell some things you have learned, and are interested in, before asking for projects. I am not a professional yet but when you say DS/ML, its too diverse even to tell you about what would be a decent project for your resume. Few basic projects could be:
Image classifier (DL)
NLP, sentiment analysis
Clustering based projects like recommendation algo(ML)

Some advance stuff could be:
project needing you to do Noise elimination for time series analysis
Student teacher models
generative transformers
etc.

and these were just from top of my mind there are loads more.

[wanton birch]

Fair enough! Thanks.

So far I’ve done some basic churn rate prediction stuff. Price estimation and prediction stuff. Made regression models, svm,knn and decision tree. Used them along with GridSearchCV to compare and find which classifiers performed the best on my dataset.

I’ve also done some Plotly dashboarding with drop down menus, graphs, sliders etc to visualise the datasets I worked with.

I used Folium to make interactive maps based on two different types of dataset.

I used Beautiful Soup with HTTP methods to scrape through websites and make data frames based on that.

I also used SQL database to store some of this data and retrieve them as needed during these mini projects.

[frigid tusk]

same man'

please someone help

[gritty rivet]

Not sure you can use tkinter on a website but try #user-interfaces not here

[brazen island]

How do fellow ML people spend their "learning" time? On CS concepts or actually on more data science related competences? I'm asking because I don't have a formal degree in comp sci, I did a degrees that were more or less focused on computational stuff without necessarily caring about proper programming habits.

Personally I go back and forth between both but somehow I'm biased in believing that comp sci related competences are more important in applied research or industry especially if you're responsible for a lot more than just the models. At least, that's how it is in my work place. What do you guys think?

[peak halo]

@brazen island what do you consider to be "CS concepts"? because "proper programming habits" doesn't really fall under computer science.

[brazen island]

I'd say the wider field of software engineering that goes beyond basic programming habits

[peak halo]

sure, but your question was about computer science, not SWE.

[brazen island]

My bad! That wasn't what I meant to communicate.

[peak halo]

anyway, I do think that programming skill is important in ML research careers. more important than what other skill depends on the other skill in question.

[brazen island]

Specifically for CS we did learn about DS&A in the context of operations research and the basics of PLT when doing logic programming but that's it I think.

[peak halo]

what does PLT stand for, in this context?

[brazen island]

programming language theory, albeit the very very basics

[peak halo]

ah. am I to understand that you majored in some other technical field, and got a minor in CS?

[brazen island]

Something like that yes

[peak halo]

well, any CS curriculum is going to require a DSA course, because accrediting agencies agree that that's a core component of CS.

[brazen island]

Stuff like web, networking, operating systems, ... was completely absent

As for DSA, it was spread out over different courses but I'm confident enough I got the essence (enough to be productive) of it because it was implicitly a prereq for courses like combinatorial optimization, ops research, logic programming etc. Either way, I was curious on how you (and others) spend your time "self learning"

[near ocean]

Do you generally have to ask for inflation adjustments to pay?

[brazen island]

We get it by default so I've gone up by approx. 10 % in 10 months

[glossy zealot]

hi !! does anyone know upcoming webinars that talks about comscie or python? thank u !!

[near ocean]

Whenabouts should I expect something like this? Is there a typical period this happens in? Its almost May

Also, if it hasnt happened yet can I assume it wont happen at all?

[deft herald]

Different for every company. Sometimes it's just seemingly out-of-the-blue "market adjustment" in the middle of the year with no announcement

Also IME, you don't get a market adjustment every year. Maybe one out of 3-5 years. But you still will typically get a small "merit increase" tied to the review cycle. Like i said though, every company operates differently

[willow scaffold]

Heyy I'm kinda confused choosing my subjects for high school. I wanna build a company related to AI so.. will I be able to study AI without choosing physics and chemistry in high school? I wanted to choose these subjects to get more in entrepreneurship:

1. Accounts
2. Commerce
3. Economics
4. Computer applications
5. Mathematics

[harsh river]

you're not planning to go to college?

[vestal kettle]

Just an honest question for you: do you want to study because you think it will make you rich or do you really enjoy studying AI? Studying AI in deep really requires a lot of Maths for now.

[smoky quest]

Building a company and building a product are completely different activities. So be mindful of what you are getting into

The subjects you picked make sense, but I wouldn't avoid physics as you can find the same principles in many other areas

[gritty rivet]

Talk to a guidance counselor to know what will prepare you best for university in your country and chosen major. Beyond that, go with your instincts and explore whatever interests you most.

[deft herald]

I would just advise you to take what sounds interesting to you in high school.

What's number 4 exactly? it sounds like it might be something like "this is how you use Word and Excel"

[sleek egret]

4 is a good number

hell, what is #2 "Commerce"?

why are those topics offered in HS? HS kids should take intro chem and physics

[pine sleet]

high school physics has me dead

[sleek egret]

decades later, I still remember my HS physics teacher telling my pops "your kid does well on the exams, but he's not doing his homework". my dad was SOOO pissed off. he took it as me humiliating him

I still didn't do the homework, lol

[smoky quest]

it's not too late. Better late than never

[pine sleet]

Our school district has a system now where whatever you get on the exam "waterfalls" to all the homework assignments from that unit

Say you get 0s on two assignments, and 90 on the test. Those two 0s are bumped up to 90s

[sleek egret]

not too late for what?

[sleek egret]

that's lame and unfair to the kids who do their homework

[pine sleet]

our district is infamous across the state for having the most inflated GPAs because of that

[sleek egret]

more importantly, it teaches that there are no repercussions for being a lazy ass

[river tulip]

Hi , i am doing an internship in an automobile electronics company, after my internship gets over i will be a software development engineer,

I have another option to sit in a semiconductor company as a a validation engineer and the pay is also 300,000 higher

But will it be a good option to be a validation engineer?

[sleek egret]

to me, 300,000 more simoleans sounds like a good option

[brazen island]

Not doing effort in high school just made uni harder for me because I had to learn discipline from scratch. I think that's the point of homework in general.

[true harness]

what does a validation engineer do

[strong lava]

validate

[sleek egret]

one assumes he engineers validations

[river tulip]

Validate whatever software engineer developed

[true harness]

do you want to do that?

[river tulip]

If I can shift later from validation to software engineer I might join the semiconductor domain

But is it hard to change domain?

[sleek egret]

the answer is: it depends. those domains, sounds easy

[smoky quest]

qa/validation is typically seen as a lower job than the dev part

[true harness]

what currency is the 300,000 number you gave in? actually, what country are you in. at the end of the day you just have to consider how much you value working as a software dev. is it worth missing out on the 300k?

[river tulip]

Inr

LoL forgot to mention that

[river tulip]

Hmm, that's the issue, my current software dev role might give me a good pay in future

Not sure about the validation part

[brittle thorn]

To make it valid lmao

[harsh river]

arent you in AP

[pine sleet]

AP physics c

[wheat wigeon]

is there a website to learn machine learning, wich is free for Students?

[peak halo]

what kind of website? because there's youtube videos and stuff.

[wheat wigeon]

The last time I tried to learn from YouTube I got overwhelmed...

[deft herald]

Well...machine learning can be like that

It's a deep, complicated topic

[peak halo]

that's normal. there's so much that goes into ML, and each resource will make different assumptions about how much you already know.

also, I see that you asked this question in #data-science-and-ml. to avoid duplicated effort, try to just ask things in one channel.

[wheat wigeon]

I posted it later on, because I found the channel ant thought it suits the topic better. Won't do it again.

[smoky quest]

I would add some cool number or impact if any

it's still solving a problem that your company had before. Ex: reducing the release time from 2d to 1h

[noble lance]

Yo, any internships for high school students and 1sy year students for SE or compsci or anything in tech?

[deft herald]

Yo, check out the channel description

Recruiting/job searching aside, there typically aren't any internships for high school students

Usually have to be persuing a related degree

[sleek egret]

we hired a student who was going into her freshman year of university as an intern once. she was quite exceptional though, usually we wouldn't consider such kids.

IIRC, she works for spacex now on satellite constellation adjustments

[spark cobalt]

Search for internships + your graduation year. I'm sure thousands of freshman get tech internships every year. Or, at least quite a few in my network has gotten them.

I think @true harness got an offer...? And he's a freshman.

[true harness]

leaked

[vestal lake]

Complete beginner looking for a tutor. DM if interested…. If this is the wrong forum I apologize please redirect me…

[buoyant seal]

https://kaggle.com
Many completions for ML, including pure for training.
Each project has tutorials, datasets, examples of solutions

Google there something like hand written letters recognition challenge to get started

Pure practical approach kind of. Will be nice learning theory somewhere in addition

[smoky quest]

@vale belfry There aren't any reasons to delete your messages.
That's not a great etiquette or practice

<@&831776746206265384> ads. Same ad than yesterday

[plain sparrow]

Was Never Possible without the help of Python! Thank you so much Python

Soon or later I will add the one and only presence with the help of python.

[rose elk]

[slow sonnet]

bro

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Is there a question?

[slender kindle]

hi

I want my terminal to always don't open as a super user

[near ocean]

not a career question

[vapid jay]

I like both programming and astrophysics
my confusion is immeasurable rn 💀

[true harness]

@modern ore i don't know what that is

@modern ore what is it

@modern ore seems interesting. are you going. or did you apply

@modern ore that's amusing

required linkedin URL. very amusing. only june and december graduation dates ? how can you design a form this bad

ah. that's why you asked for startups

@modern ore occasionally. I usually do codeforces

@modern ore contests. but they are usually during class time so I miss a lot

@modern ore I don't remember. I've only done like 2 contests. like I said, the times usually conflict with school

@modern ore c++. also, this seems off topic

[modern ore]

looks weird, but that was the last question 💀

[true harness]

common ringringring message deleting

gonna bring back the old reply system just for you

[near ocean]

why so antisocial bruv, this has to be against code of conduct somewhere

[fringe pine]

What happening?

[near ocean]

guy here deleting his posts from the channel

[fringe pine]

Ah ok.

[true harness]

lx you should just copy all the messages back 🥺👉👈

[slate prairie]

I want to get into NLP but keep getting basic data analyst jobs that are mostly around data cleaning and transformation. Part of me wants to filter out all JDs that don't mention "nlp" in their description, but feel like I would miss on a lot of opportunities.

Any suggestion?

[sleek egret]

yar

[peak halo]

there's not a lot of consistency in what responsibilities go to what job titles, but if the job title is "computational linguist", that basically guarantees that you'd be doing nlp. but you would need credentials for both linguistics and AI.

(and if you do go into nlp, you will still be spending lots of time on data cleaning and transformation.)

[slate prairie]

What kind of credentials? I am interested in linguistics, but the most I can do is getting an online certification. I don't have the space to pursue a degree (even part-time) in linguistics.

[peak halo]

what degree(s) do you have, if any?

[slate prairie]

bachelor's in technology (Computer Science).

[peak halo]

did you take any AI courses? and what do you do now for work?

[slate prairie]

No, haven't taken any AI course yet (though planning to). Currently I work as a senior analyst where I clean, transform and analyze datasets on python.

[peak halo]

you're planning to. are you in grad school right now?

[slate prairie]

No, I am working full time in an analytics firm. I will most likely puruse online diploma on AI, or go with one of the AI certifications on Azure.

[peak halo]

I'm not sure how much value would be ascribed to an AI certificate. What is an "online diploma"?

[slate prairie]

Basically a degree lite that you can take entirely remote. Usually 6 months-1 year.

[peak halo]

I can't say one way or another how successful I think you will be.

[slate prairie]

Well, you need some kind of credentials for AI, like you said yourself.

Let's forget degrees. How about portfolio in AI? How do you build that?

[peak halo]

I don't know.

One could post model training code that they've written on github, but that puts it on prospective employers to figure out if that demonstrates actual skill of yours, or if it's a rehash of something that someone else did that requires minimal understanding to produce.

[sleek egret]

couldn't the same be said of any posted code?

[gritty rivet]

Yes, not that portfolios aren't useful, just that how you can talk about them is as important as the code

[sleek egret]

indeed

[forest jungle]

How much do I fuck myself by having a non-tech career gap? As in, an extended period where I'm not working in tech.

[near ocean]

If you can avoid it I would, if you can't there's not much reason to think about it

[sleek egret]

it depends. you'll f**k yourself anything from barely noticeable to completely

[true harness]

it's not the gap itself that's a problem, it's if you don't have a reasonable explanation for it. education, fine. no one wants to hire you, not so fine

[sleek egret]

ironically, unemployed people are the least desirable job candidates

[vapid jay]

any1 know any like marketplace servcres where people hire freelancers and what not

[lunar sorrel]

Hey hello there I am a new bee pursuing my btech (CSE) , can anyone guide me through that what should I do to land into good company

[peak halo]

what country is this? India?

[forest jungle]

Unfortunately it is very much "I can't get hired" right now, and my finances are so bad I can't afford to keep trying to get a cs job

[true harness]

why can't you get hired?

[forest jungle]

¯_(ツ)_/¯ if I knew that I'd probably be hired

[sleek egret]

all freelance marketplaces are races to the bottom. don't use them unless you have no other choice

[true harness]

well, at what part of the process are you being eliminated?

[forest jungle]

I'm not even getting interviews.

[sleek egret]

you should try to get summer internships

[true harness]

so you need to improve your resume

[lunar sorrel]

Yes

[forest jungle]

I've had my resume checked by this place multiple times, it's fine.

[true harness]

clearly not. if it was, you would get interviews

[sleek egret]

no offense, but it's obviously NOT fine given that the purpose of a resume is to get interviews

[peak halo]

idk how it works in India, but in the US, you want to do internships over the summer.

[forest jungle]

If that's the case this discord also clearly doesn't have anything to offer for fixing it.

I mean no offense, to be clear.

[sleek egret]

How accurate is the movie "3 idiots"?

[true harness]

worked for me 😉

[hearty island]

also worked for me

[pine sleet]

I've also seen the feedback from this channel land people interviews as well

[forest jungle]

I have posted here multiple times. Yes, the first one sucked. The current one no one had any criticisms of and I've had recruiters tell me it's fine.

[true harness]

well, let's see it

[lunar sorrel]

That's great , but how do I start with a programming language like I have tried many times to learn python but failed to be consistent

[vapid jay]

not like freelancer freelancer but like people looking to hire devs

[forest jungle]

Not doing that. I'm on my phone, and the last time I posted it all I got was criticism that I needed to have a better uni, should have gotten more internships, and a bunch of other non-actionable stuff.

I just needed to know if taking temp work elsewhere was going to lock me out entirely

[sleek egret]

learning how to program is very similar to learning how to play a musical instrument professionally. that is, it takes a mix of both theory and practice. a LOT of practice.

[peak halo]

you can follow along with a book, and then just code different stuff from there.

[true harness]

pick a resource and stick to it. I recommend the book automate the boring stuff

[lunar sorrel]

It is good but it depends how you take it !

[sleek egret]

to get reasonably competent at programming takes a lot of time spent reading, practicing, re-reading, and re-practicing.

[true harness]

no, as long as it's explainable

[sleek egret]

The key is to understand that there is no shortcut. Just as you cannot become a concert pianist with just a few weeks of effort, you cannot reach professional programmer competency with just a few videos and sample exercises. for most people, it takes years to gain enough proficiency for a job.

and the earlier you start, the sooner you'll reach your goals

[lunar sorrel]

That was really a pleasure to have your guidance thank you 🙂🙂

[sleek egret]

koi bat nahi

[true harness]

and the last time I posted it all I got was criticism that I needed to have a better uni, should have gotten more internships, and a bunch of other non-actionable stuff.
i looked back and found a bunch of advice from recursive_error and stelercus about your projects. did you implement it? i don't really see anyone talking about your school or internships

[last crane]

i learned how to program in the usaf.

i didnt know what i wanted in life, so i lucked out with a job doing C ( ada was taught in tech school )

technology changes so fast, nowdays I would rather read the docs than pay for a course

[true harness]

that's because you already know a programming language, though. learning a new framework or something is easy

[sleek egret]

it's good to know what you like

[last crane]

right now i do SRE type work 50% of the time. SRE was hardest to get into.

people talk about career paths. system engineer->devops->cloud/sr.. or progammer->devops->sre

most great system engineers are lazy and love python 😄

[little abyss]

How do I apply the knowledge I learned from courses and not get trapped in tutorial hell?

[last crane]

for python? automate things is a start.

[vapid jay]

Aanyone?

[sleek egret]

by working on projects

[little abyss]

I don't how to build projects... I haven't learned web dev yet
I just know intermediate python
Should I do CP instead?

[little abyss]

Can you provide examples?

[sleek egret]

no offense, but if you can't build a small project from start to finish (and deploy it), I would hesitate to call the skill level "intermediate"

[little abyss]

OOP and DSA are beginner level?

[sleek egret]

I strongly suggest you come up with, design, implement and deploy a small project. it won't be as hard as you might imagine and you'll learn a lot while doing it.

[sleek egret]

yes

[little abyss]

Oh ok I just said intermediate cause the courses description said so 😅

[sleek egret]

intermediate for university

[little abyss]

Do you recommend this online bootcamp? https://www.udemy.com/course/100-days-of-code/

[sleek egret]

advanced uni stuff is still is newb level for professionals

[little abyss]

Got it thanks for the information

[sleek egret]

that's how the kids these days would say it, no?

[sleek egret]

no. real world projects take 100 days, not 1

[little abyss]

My first project can't be a real world project no?

[little abyss]

Also idk anything about web dev so I can't learn by doing... It will take me ages to build a single project

[sleek egret]

it's fine to "take agges"

understand that major software projects take man-years. a typical top tier game will take the equivalent of 100's of man-years to create.

The original Windows NT took more labor than the hoover dam to build

[gritty rivet]

If you feel it's taking too long, do smaller/easier projects

[sleek egret]

so taking a few weeks on a project is not a big deal

[little abyss]

Ye few weeks is fine

[sleek egret]

but 1 or 2 days is for when you're learning syntax basics. it's very difficult to create anything meaningful in that short a time when you're starting out.

[little abyss]

Got it thanks for the advice 🙏

[hybrid flare]

How should i start to learn (sorry, im just too dumb)

[sleek egret]

first off, stop worrying about innate talents (like being "dumb"). being persistent and disciplined is FAR FAR more important than any sort of innate, inborn traits. then read. and practice. then repeat. a lot.

there is nothing that is taught into the upper year university level that takes any sort of genius to learn. anyone with even below average intellect can learn it with enough effort.

[smoky quest]

https://automatetheboringstuff.com/ is a good beginner resource

[hybrid flare]

Thanks

[last crane]

terraform, aws boto calls, anything with API

[pastel thunder]

you can do computer vision, NLP it seems to be new to you.

[brazen island]

Advanced uni stuff can probably be hard for some professionals as well because there's a large gap between what is done in industry

[vapid jay]

do someone know some free domain hosting? Something like freenom.com .

Because freenom have now some technical difficulties and i need domain fast - and i have dont have money rn.

[sleek egret]

no. it doesn't exist.

[vapid jay]

oh okay. Thank you anyways

[strong lava]

for the future: save up for a domain, freenom isnt very reliable imo

[wanton birch]

Yeah. I know nothing about them.

[tender void]

will i ever get rich by python guyssss

[near ocean]

Read the pins, then you'd have a better idea of the answer

[fluid fern]

I use duckdns if you don't mind having duckdns.org as your top level domain

[zealous path]

…
Depends on how good you’re at Python

[ivory sluice]

more depends on how persuasive and successful you are at getting employers (or clients) to pay you python (or programming) skills can* increase those chances but don't guarantee anything

[meager imp]

would anyone here with a job in software development, cybersecurity, or ai be willing to talk with me for a bit and answer some questions i have to help me make a decision on what to go into?

[buoyant seal]

dontasktoask.com , don't ask to ask, just ask.

[distant lake]

knowing 1 language doesnt really do anything

[meager imp]

aight bet:

Most of these questions are for America as i have heard that the value of certain degrees and certifications can vary in different parts of the world

1. What are the most preferred qualifications for tech recruiters such as college degrees, certifications, projects etc.
2. What study path would be a good idea to get into something like making ai for video games or software development.
3. How do the job fields software developer, cyber security analyst, web developer, and machine learning engineer compare in terms of future potential and job outlook?
4. Can you describe what a day in the life for the fields above would look like and how they would use their skills to tackle some potential roadblocks?
5. What are the difference of usefulness between an AS and an AA in these fields above?

6. Does anyone know of a field that revolves around reinforced learning specifically?
7. How important is it to have a strong portfolio of personal projects or contributions to open-source projects for each of these fields?
8. What are some industry-recognized certifications that can help boost one's career in these fields, and which ones are most valuable for each specific field?
9. How do the roles and responsibilities of software developers, cybersecurity analysts, web developers, and machine learning engineers differ in different industries, such as finance, healthcare, entertainment, or technology?

im sure i can think of more but i think with these questions answered will be a great first step into making a decision

[gritty rivet]

A lot of this is answered frequently if you search through the channel but a few quick points on some of these ... 1) Degrees and projects are both important.. Certs mean little for dev roles. To be more detailed then that really depends on the roles you are aiming for. 3) Titles don't mean that much. Learn what interests you, do it well, and keep learning. 5) an AS is better for tech then an AA but both are worth very little compared to a BS. 7) very important 8) like I said certs don't count much in general and the ones that do have value depend on the role.

Take time to look at the job market and see for yourself. Look at job listings and people's career paths in LinkedIn. You'll quickly get a better sense of all these things that way

[summer roost]

1. For software development, certifications aren't very useful, outside of a very small handful of well known certs from large companies (mostly ones related to AWS/Azure/GCP). Employers mostly value prior work experience and degrees. Projects are less useful than degrees (but useful in conjunction with degrees, to showcase your best skills).
2. At least a BS degree in Computer Science, or possibly Software Engineering. For AI, you're likely to need an MS degree.
3. That question pretty much requires someone to predict the future.
4. I've honestly never even heard of an AA degree before, but an associate's degree is more useful than no degree, but less useful than a bachelor's degree.
5. For all of those fields, you don't need a portfolio at all if you have a degree and prior internships.
6. There aren't any, other than possibly the AWS/Azure/GCP certs I mentioned above (and those are probably more useful for SRE roles than developer roles)

[meager imp]

Thank you both for taking the time to answer these questions.
So far it sounds like college is a lot better than going the self study route.

[summer roost]

4 and 9 are really broad questions. I'm not sure how someone could usefully answer either of those, honestly.

[meager imp]

i might still ask these questions here at a later time as i will be analyzing all of the answers eventually

i asked 4 because i only really hear the job titles from an outside view and dont know what actually goes on.
i asked 9 because there are certain things that i would love to work on for example if i went into machine learning i would much rather like to work on a project like segmentation for self driving cars than to work on using patterns in social media to further manipulate people into buying things

its a bit hard to know which questions to ask when i know so little about it in the first place

[summer roost]

titles don't mean much in the real world. Two people might do exactly the same work even though one calls themselves a "software developer" and one calls themselves a "web developer". That's true even for "software developer" vs "machine learning engineer" to some degree.

[meager imp]

damn

thats actually nuts

[summer roost]

i would much rather like to work on a project like segmentation for self driving cars than to work on using patterns in social media to further manipulate people into buying things
There's a lot more companies trying to get people to buy things than trying to build self-driving cars.

[meager imp]

Thats true but i feel like i would feel like shit using my knowledge to manipulate people into spending money for other people to have

and that was just one example another would be for projects like what nvidia works on

[summer roost]

is it? ML models and websites and intrusion detection systems are all types of software, so the "software engineer" category is a broad umbrella that covers (or at least overlaps with) all of them.

[meager imp]

i thought the title represented the type of work and knowledge required. Like i dont think an average web developer could make ai most of the time or at least thats what i thought originally which is the reason i found it a bit shocking

[summer roost]

someone who calls themselves a "web developer" probably doesn't build AI models, but might very well make use of AI models that someone else trained.

[meager imp]

ohhh that makes a lot of sense actually lol

I was confused as to why the college course included web development when i thought they were completely different. This actually takes a bit of weight off of me weirdly because i thought i was going to be forced to learn a lot of useless information.

[summer roost]

I don't consider myself a "web developer" (in fact, I strongly dislike working with frontend stuff) but I've needed to use HTML and CSS and JavaScript even within the last year, as a relatively small part of larger projects that are more in line with my interests. I wouldn't worry that stuff you learn won't be useful to you - at the very least, you'll learn what you do and don't enjoy working on, which will help you later on when deciding what positions to apply or not apply to

[meager imp]

i think that front end is cool but incredibly tedious. i mainly enjoy things that require me to think and then hopefully have an ah ha moment.

[summer roost]

I think you'll have that in most careers that require a CS degree, honestly. I know I have plenty of "aha" moments 🙂

[meager imp]

how did you find what you wanted to go into?

[summer roost]

trying a bunch of stuff, figuring out what I liked most and least. Turns out I like Unix programming much more than working on Windows, I like systems level programming a lot and frontend programming very little, etc

I went to a uni with a co-op program, which included three 6-month internships over the course of a 5 year program. That was a huge help in figuring out what sorts of things I do and don't enjoy working on, and sparking my interest in some fields I wouldn't have known much about otherwise

[meager imp]

I am considering a program that offers 300 hours of paid job experience after my first two years in college. While I initially found the idea of ethical hacking exciting, I quickly discovered that it wasn't as engaging as I had hoped. On the other hand, I enjoy working on small personal projects using Python but never made anything with a team and have experience with creating user interfaces, which I find rewarding once completed. I am particularly interested in creating AI for video games, but I'm unsure how to break into that field.

[summer roost]

everything I've ever heard is that video games tend to have far worse working conditions than just about any other type of software job. Incredibly long hours, lower than average pay, toxic cultures, a history of harassment, etc

I'd strongly suggest doing some research on the culture of game dev jobs before deciding to commit to that route

[meager imp]

hmmmm, maybe it would be better being a mod creator for games but i will look into it for sure.

[peak halo]

is creating "AI for video games" something you want to do for interest, or something you want to be able to do professionally? because I don't see the application, as careers go.

[meager imp]

i dont really know i just got an interest in it after seeing things like armas ai and ready or not and nexto in rocket league
having something im passionate about get ruined by professionally doing it is something i hope to avoid

reinforced learning in video games seems really cool to me but i dont really know the professional applications to it

[peak halo]

the term you're looking for is "reinforcement learning". the professional application is training autonomous systems that have market value (like self-driving cars).

[meager imp]

this seems like something i would enjoy

[sleek egret]

certifications mostly don't matter

[peak halo]

you'll need at least a bachelors in CS to get jobs related to that, though. and most likely a masters.

5. What are the difference of usefulness between an AS and an AA in these fields above?
   That is, the difference in usefulness between an associate of science and associate of arts degree, for the purpose of getting a job in autonomy?

[sleek egret]

ML/AI devs can be split into two broad categories. 1) people who create the models and 2) people who use the models. the former is hard and requires advanced degrees (usually PhD's). the latter is much much easier, just requires a surface level understanding of what AI/ML can do and the ability to use the libraries.

sort of obviously, category #1 pays much better

or to put it another way, people who do #1 create stuff like ChatGPT, people who do #2 use the ChatGPT API's

[peak halo]

the former is hard and requires advanced degrees (usually PhD's).
a lot of my coworkers have PhDs, but I think a masters is really the threshold.

[sleek egret]

sure, as I said "usually"

hell, I bet there are people doing high end ML/AI work with just a bachelors. not common, but I'd be surprised if they didn't exist at all.

[peak halo]

well, yes. me.

[meager imp]

interesting i would have thought it the other way around

[sleek egret]

see? there ya go 🙂

Noah: you would have thought that the less educated do the more advanced theoretical work? that's an odd perspective.

[meager imp]

i would have thought that the creating the models as harder than using it

[sleek egret]

that's what I said

[meager imp]

former is hard ladder is much easier

[sleek egret]

latter, not ladder. and the latter was #2

[summer roost]

there are many people with just a bachelors who work in ML/AI - but they're mostly people with a decade or two of prior experience as software engineers who picked up ML when there was a business need for it, and self-taught the required material to get up to speed. That's largely as a consequence of the fact that "machine learning" wasn't a thing that you could go to school for until very recently

[meager imp]

i need an ide that corrects my spelling for a reason dog

oh i just realized i misread your statement

[peak halo]

ML/AI devs can be split into two broad categories. ... 2) people who use the models
I've never heard of people who only use the models without knowing anything about model design being considered "ML/AI devs". Unless they're trained to deal with raw model outputs (arrays of logits, or something), and to wrap those in APIs for downstream devs, or something.

[sleek egret]

things are changing fast, brah

[summer roost]

I haven't heard of it either, but I wouldn't be surprised by someone who integrates models into other applications all day calling themselves an ML dev

which goes back to the earlier point about job titles being fuzzy

[sleek egret]

by next year you'll have kids who have sent a few queries to the chatgpt api calling themselves AI experts. mark my words.

[peak halo]

I mean that's probably happening at this exact moment.

[meager imp]

probably already being done.

its easy to get an ego high after making projects with it, until i try to recreate it without its help...

[peak halo]

even if you fully understand how ChatGPT works (I do not), you wouldn't be able to recreate it without acquiring enough data and having a powerful enough computer. and I believe the training procedure involves a lot of human intervention.

[meager imp]

i would hope so lol

[peak halo]

well, most model training doesn't involve human intervention.

[sleek egret]

my understanding is that it cost around $4.5 mil in compute resources to train GPT-3

and GPT-4 is probably an order of magnitude higher

[meager imp]

well the stuff you train it on does doesnt it?

[peak halo]

anyway, using the APIs for services that happen to involve AI at the backend isn't fundamentally different than using any other API.

[sleek egret]

Noah, no I mean just the compute time

GPT is a massive model. it essentially shows that you can brute force things

[meager imp]

i was referring to the human intervention that stelercus was talking about

[sleek egret]

oh, sorry. my bad.

[fleet reef]

Dog?

[meager imp]

wrong dog, dog

[fleet reef]

No such thing

[meager imp]

wrong right dog, dog.

[sleek egret]

anyway, it's not 100% clear but rumors say they used a very large cluster of 1000's of Tesla V100 GPU's

[meager imp]

i wouldnt even be surprised with how things have been going lately or at least the things i have been hearing in ai

[peak halo]

I think what I heard is that during training, humans would evaluate whether or not the outputs of ChatGPT sounded conversational and relevant to the prompt. (The outputs would already be grammatically correct and semantically coherent every time, because GPT-3 already had that. It just needed to be made "conversational".)

[meager imp]

well gpt has a thing where when you regenerate a response it asks if it was better so im guessing they save that and maybe use that to train. but honestly i dont know enough about it to say anything really

[sleek egret]

GPT is pretty amazing. it's good enough that people are forced to move the bar

[gritty rivet]

Me? By completely changing career paths multiple times, that's how 😉

I say that just to emphasize that there's no point in overthinking your long-term plans. If you're pretty sure you'd like to do any of these various subfields for at least a few years, a BS in CS is likely to be a worthwhile investment, but you won't know exactly what you'll be doing with it until you do. (I did not study CS, but I do work as a developer currently)

[sleek egret]

so now the bar is no longer "can the AI write a decent story/poem or some code that works?" it's "can the AI write a good story/poem or code that is better than a freshman?"

I strongly agree with dowcet. I know many people who switched careers multiple times

[meager imp]

really quick can you guys just give me a yes for certs being better or a no for degrees being better.
im tallying it up

[sleek egret]

certs essentially do not matter. just accept it and move on.

[gritty rivet]

I'm pretty sure nobody here will say that the value of certs compares to a degree

[sleek egret]

a university degree is the education level expected now. it's possible to succeed in software development without one, but much more difficult.

[meager imp]

i have heard mixed results, but was just wanting to tally it so that i can show it to someone.

[sleek egret]

and you will always lose to a similarly skilled fella with a degree if you don't have one

[meager imp]

i have heard that too and a pretty messed up story with it

[sleek egret]

no offense, but the only people who say that certs are valuable are people who sell certs

[sleek egret]

it's not fair, but life ain't fair <shrug>

[meager imp]

i have mainly heard certs are valuable by people in the field who used certs to get in

[sleek egret]

they didn't get a job because of the cert

[meager imp]

i was told it was because of the passion

[gritty rivet]

The best data is the job market. Pick ten random job listings in the field you're most interested in. It's likely that all of them will mention a degree requirement. Depending on the field, few if any will mention certifications

[summer roost]

which certs have you heard are useful?

[sleek egret]

they got work because they demonstrated their skills to the prospective employer

[meager imp]

security+ i have heard is a pretty useful one

[sleek egret]

that sort of thing is for IT, not software development

[meager imp]

comptia a+ i have also heard but its a very very VERY low level cert.

[gritty rivet]

It depends on "the field". Ops roles and security do value certs somewhat as a complement to having a degree (not a replacement

[gritty rivet]

Yes if your goal is start in desktop support or help desk, any of the CompTIA trifecta (A+, Net+, Sec+) can help. But if that's all you have, the person with the degree gets the job before you

[sleek egret]

Noah, what a uni degree says to employers is "this guy has shown that he can pick up a book, read it and learn what's necessary for the job, even if it is so hard that it takes years." certs sorta say "this guy can memorize a bunch of facts and maybe understands them".

again, those characterizations may not be fair, but it is what it is

[sleek egret]

You have to understand that a university degree today is equivalent to a HS diploma in the 1940's or 1950's. In 1945, less than half of students were graduating HS. Today, about 60% go to university and 40% of the population graduates.

[summer roost]

the only certs I've ever heard a hiring manager who's hiring for software engineer positions say they care about are the cloud dev ones - AWS, Azure, GCP. And even those are more useful for ops positions than developer positions.

[summer roost]

are you saying that 1/3 people who start uni don't finish? That's higher than I'd have guessed

[sleek egret]

(I'm talking about the USA for those student stats)

[sleek egret]

yeah, more or less

[summer roost]

well, I guess that explains all the surveys with "some college" as a level of education

[gritty rivet]

For entry level roles, yes, useful but not comparable to a degree... And beyond that, for actual security-focused roles, it's worthless. Security+ is a requirement for certain gov roles (most of which also require forma clearance, which typically comes from military experience) and it's good for help desk, but the really valuable security certs like CISSP require years of experience to get not just an exam. And I don't know what percentage of people with those valuable certs also have relevant degrees but a lot do.

[sleek egret]

remember, literally millions of kids enter university every year in the US

I just feel sorry for kids who get conned into majoring in less than useless things. and I really mean less than useless, as in their degree hurts them when looking for a job.

[oak zodiac]

Graduation rates vary a lot by college but 1/3 makes sense. For example UMCG has 26% while UMD has 85% graduation rate.

[sleek egret]

wait what, 26% graduation rate? that's crazy

[oak zodiac]

Online college, seems to have much lower...

[sleek egret]

ah. yeah, would be easier to quit when you're alone and isolated like that

even so, 26% ... damn.

[oak zodiac]

Yep! As far as certifications go like someone else mentioned some of the cloud ones seem to be good option, I read good things about AWS SAA* for job seeking.

[smoky quest]

tbh, if you have a degree, you don't need certs

[fleet reef]

And if I don’t have a degree?

[sleek egret]

if you don't have a degree certs won't hurt but they won't really help all that much either

[smoky quest]

then you make it up with whatever you can

[smoky quest]

Try to reverse the roles: imagine you have to hire a new coworker in your team to help you.
How do you know you are hiring someone who will be great and pleasant to work with and not someone who will keep on messing up and being a pain to work with?

and if they mess up, you would be accountable for them

[fleet reef]

Well I…. that sounds more like personalities than anything

[smoky quest]

how so?

if they cannot perform their job, that's pure skills

[fleet reef]

Oh I think I see your point

[sleek egret]

and if they're not up to snuff... can they get up to snuff quickly?

[smoky quest]

and if they are a pain to deal with and people complain about how they aren't a team player, that's behavior

[sleek egret]

and what is university, but a furnace to teach kids how to quickly learn shit they don't want to learn?

[fleet reef]

That’s what I took from your comment

[smoky quest]

that was only half of it

that's why interviews assess for 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 as well as behaviors

[nova dock]

i am pretty young but still want to help people what should i do?

[summer roost]

I'm totally blown away by how many kids come to this channel thinking that trying to get a programming job without a degree will make their lives easier, instead of much, much harder

[fleet reef]

People say that not having a degree will improve their prospects??

[sleek egret]

study hard

[strong lava]

"will i get hired at a big tech company by following this freecodecamp python tutorial ???"

[sleek egret]

after all, aren't all the great entrepeneurs college dropouts?

[nova dock]

i dont want a job because i cant im just wondering how i can help

[meager imp]

i dont know how people would get the idea that its easier but there are people who say its possible

[sleek egret]

by studying hard, learning about the world. then studying more at university. then pursue a career that helps people.

[oak zodiac]

I think it depends a lot on the company, right? Depending on the company/position there could be minimum requirements. Then from those applicants the next qualification is “personality” (aka how they do during the interview). But you may need the minimum which could be a college degree for some.

[meager imp]

i used to have the impression that people with a lot of self study would be more valuable than someone fresh out of college (not in the eyes of a recruiter)

[summer roost]

yeah, lots of people seem to come here with the opinion that uni is a waste of time and resources, and that they'll lose 4 years to it with nothing to show for it

[nova dock]

thanks rmah

[sleek egret]

not much. there are a few small firms that will favor people without degrees. but no larger firm will. even firms started by drop outs favor people with university degrees.

[smoky quest]

now think about the people who self study on top of going to college 😉

[nova dock]

i was just wondering how i can help

[meager imp]

that is what i plan to do

[smoky quest]

it's not like people who go to college don't do anything or aren't passionate

[meager imp]

of course not, it just kind of sounds like easy mode compared to learning it all through self study

[sleek egret]

I've literally heard some anti-university people say that those who went to university are conformist idiots who can't be creative or think.

[spark cobalt]

All college students I know personally did some form of self study to establish their portfolio

[summer roost]

help with what?

[sleek egret]

all good universities are mostly self-study for most topics

[meager imp]

well that would make sense but can you say the same for things that they did not want to learn?

[nova dock]

just help with something I want to help people

[smoky quest]

totally!
That's why I believe in my own self education. But I will also need some help from someone who already know stuff to help me. And we will pay their expenses by pooling multiple students together

[sleek egret]

that's crazy talk! and smacks of communism!

[spark cobalt]

Learning isn't about fun. It isn't about want, it's about what college deems necessary for students to know.

[fleet reef]

Yeah, no. A couple of people have introduced me to their favorite recruiter, and they both immediately point out that not having the degree would make it harder

[summer roost]

People don't generally do extra projects on things they don't enjoy, regardless of whether they're self-taught or going to uni.

[spark cobalt]

You can learn things you deem to be fun, but you'll likely end up severely lacking in areas you deem to not be fun

[meager imp]

agreed but i know a lot of people in college who dont self study on the things that they are forced to learn and apply themselves differently to different things

though this could be because its a community college

[spark cobalt]

Significantly harder. Coming from someone without a degree.

Like, so hard to the point it's almost like your chances at interviews is if someone made a mistake down their hiring process

[sleek egret]

at better universities, you attend maybe 3 hours of lectures for a class during a week. but need to do maybe 6 hours of reading/exercises outside of class each week.

[summer roost]

I think that's just human nature. People are inclined to only put in the minimum effort towards things they don't enjoy doing

[smoky quest]

College is what you make of it.
At the end of the day, the best opportunities will go to the students who take their future in their own handS. The ones who just tag along will get whatever is left

[meager imp]

i cant wait to go to college. i have been self taught on pretty much everything for the past 7 years and realized how much easier it is to learn with a curriculum and structure

[spark cobalt]

This market is very competitive. You'll need everything you can get.

[smoky quest]

and other classmates who also love to geek around the same stuff

[meager imp]

yes that is another thing im really excited for it will be great to be surrounded by not only people who know about what your interested in but people who care about it as autistically as i do

[smoky quest]

let's avoid words like autistically

[sleek egret]

a minority, but still fairly sizeable portion, of working programmers don't know wtf they're doing. they float from job to job essentially scamming their way through life. don't be one of them.

[sleek egret]

also understand that the culture of different teams/divisions/companies can be radically different. I've worked at places where people almost never talked to each other and other places where we frequently went out drinking (or other stuff together) after work. places where developers had a lot of say in how products were designed and places where they had almost no say.

it's all over the map, there is no consistency

that is both the upside and downside of america, I guess

[pine sleet]

I was surprised that on average I only have 16 hours of lectures per week at my university, compared to some 40 hours I'm doing in high school right now

[sleek egret]

at a uni, you are an adult. and more or less treated like one.

well, that's how it was when I was in university, anyway

[pine sleet]

Yeah that's definetely going to take some getting used to, our district babies kids a bit more than compared to other schools

[sleek egret]

you'll be fine

[summer roost]

you'll likely spend a lot more time on homework and self-study in uni than in high school

[sleek egret]

the big bonus though is that the parties are more fun and the booze flow smore freely 🙂

[true harness]

only nerds go to parties

[deft herald]

We're talking about lan parties right? Those are the only ones i ever went to in college

[pine sleet]

based

[peak halo]

mandatory education isn't just about education. it's also government-run babysitting.

[proper bramble]

which language is best in feture?

[pine sleet]

Depends on what specific field you're going into and what you're going to be doing

[meager imp]

😂

[true harness]

English

[summer roost]

Loglan

[heavy python]

is this a good roadmap for me

probably not good to ask this question in a python server lol but i am a college sophmore btw

[worthy dove]

@heavy python yeah totally good 👍

[summer roost]

Don't shitpost here, please. People use this channel for serious conversations about their future goals and directions, and posts like this detract from the value of the channel

[heavy python]

How am i shitposting? This is about my roadmap to my career to a SWE? lmao this makes no sense

buddy said shitpost this is about my future goals and direction 😂

[summer roost]

The road map doesn't go in order, the "do last" is in the middle

It's clearly a joke. Perhaps you didn't get it.

[vapid jay]

yall got any marketplace servers where ppl r lookin for devs to hire? summer vacation is coming up and i think i can bit of money with all the free time i have

[summer roost]

No, we don't allow job posts here

[tender void]

Gimme examples

[tender void]

But what if i had other programming languages

[smoky quest]

they are not pokemons. You don't have to collect them all.
People get paid because they solve problems, not because of how many languages they know

[vapid jay]

How can I earn through python coding

@vapid jay check websites with job offers, create a linkedin profile or hire a scout. activate your creativity

[vapid jay]

nooo, marketplace discord servers. not here

[pale heath]

Anyone have the AI-102 MS Azure cert?

[pale heath]

Specialization is what makes money, the drawback is, you get socketed into that one specialty forever because that is where you gain experience.

Go work for a bank in the tech department, that is one of the only places where they'll need multiple skills on a swivel.

I work with various languages; Python, Terraform, Java, SQL, C, COBOL, hcl, etc but on paper, I'm a "Data Scientist".

[modern ore]

It will 💯

[modern ore]

🤔 looks like a meme post not gonna lie

[pale heath]

Could always learn Flask, lol

[modern ore]

Unless you makin sum crazy in HTMl CSS and JS, how will you be competitive for internships to pass resume screen 😹 😹 😹 😹 😹 😹 😹

[pale heath]

Not many hiring managers know what a Git-Hub is, either.

[modern ore]

mfs be having like 3 full stack web app on their resume, and ppl still consider that mid ( for internships )

[tender void]

rat race

[pale heath]

I mean, sure, what other options are there?

Freelance?

[vapid jay]

are you an independent person or somebody who enjoys guidance?

[modern ore]

Ppl who say rat race are always coping 😹 its the same mfs on csmajors or cscd cryin about how ppl want to get into faang or hft and how they would rather work at healthcare company doin little to no work while makin decent amount permanently

[vapid jay]

oh dear

[pale heath]

Well, I'm no economist, but I do have an Economics undergraduate degree.

How many programmers are produced every year in Asia alone?
What are you going to do? Undercut the entire subcontinent? LOL

Better to start there, get your experience up, do your 5-10 years, jump ship somewhere else, or contract.

[vapid jay]

is there no job advisor at your education facility? in chats like this you get too much noise and poison, how can that be useful

[modern ore]

Maybe some, like CO-OP schools, but I heard their advice is really bad unless its like loo

[near ocean]

How's that twosigma application going

[modern ore]

Ghosted from 2Sigma, applied to Ramp after wasting few hours doin the CTF today, and applied to cruise and shit for fall. HFT apps open soon, so I gotta prep for that, and learning java for my internship next week (I need tips to pick up sht faster). I need to do some OS related projects for Quant ( also need suggestions for this ). Lastly need tips on time management

mariosis come in clutch with some tips 🙏

[pale heath]

I'm curious, what is 2sigma?

[modern ore]

Oh yea, up to 36 apps for fall tesla, and few cold emails, haven't heard back 😹 I should probably send more out

[near ocean]

Why wouldnt you start off at a bank
I know plenty of people working as quants now that started in bofa, ubs, deutsche bank, etc 🤷

[modern ore]

you talkin to me?

[near ocean]

Ye

[modern ore]

HFT, heard its the easiest to break into for them 🤔

[pale heath]

oh, okay

[modern ore]

2sigma pays really well for swe I think, def more than faang and unicorns

[pale heath]

I'm currently working in Insto - Fixed Income , sadly being outside of the US is a nightmare

[modern ore]

Are you a US citizen?

[pale heath]

Nah, stuck in the cesspool of Australia

[modern ore]

Australia not bad for tech

Get into Sig and get me a referral big bro 🙏

[pale heath]

We don't have 'tech' per se, it's just banks and government

other way around, get in and help me get a H1B visa LOL

[modern ore]

Is it worth it tho (coming to america) 🤔

[pale heath]

Our tech is web scraping travel websites because that is all the people do here.

[modern ore]

Isn't it true Atlassian is big over dere

[pale heath]

Maybe not now, but before COVID, maybe. Still better than being taxed 35-45% of income.

[modern ore]

DAMN, but y'all got free healthcare, and no mass shooting, I think its a even trade ngl

[pale heath]

Yeah, good luck getting in.

HAHA, it ain't free, I pay $300 a month in private to stay far away from free healthcare. Mass shootings? Maybe, but we just have gang violence where you can do anything about it.

With China right there, what can you do?

I make my six figures after tax a year, I could care less about working for "prestigious" firms, not much point with high income taxes.

200k is 40' something

$180,001 and over 45% $51,667 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000

There you go

[modern ore]

You're in that bracket?

[pale heath]

Yeah, not based on job income alone

But of course, deductions are fun, you get below pretty easily.

[modern ore]

Btw are you Data Science major aswell?

[pale heath]

I have a undergrad in Economics and my Masters in AI & ML

I'm one of those FinTech nerds

[modern ore]

Did you have to learn Math from scratch like Linear ALgebra and stuff

Idk anything about fintech tbh

[pale heath]

Econ was up to & including Calc 1, Masters was Calc 2 and Vector.

Pretty much had to refresh after, you forget everything.

[modern ore]

I wanna learn ML/AI from scratch but I am so bad at math 😧

[pale heath]

The coding side is easy, the math is really needed when handling outputs and tuning. There is a bunch of free internet stuff that helps.

[modern ore]

Yeah I wanna understand how the math is working. Frameworks do most of it for you, but I feel like understanding how its working is better.

[pale heath]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLybg94GvOJ9FoGQeUMFZ4SWZsr30jlUYK

That is pretty much everything, from the beginning to the stuff I needed to use in my math units.

[modern ore]

Does it come with practice problems

[pale heath]

Some at the end of each video.

[modern ore]

Are you pursuing research scientist or applied scientist given that you did masters in Ai/ML ? Not sure if those two roles are related to it

[pale heath]

Honestly, sort of done with Academia, if I was given the opportunity with pay/stipend, I'd think about it.

You don't go further usually, most people suggest just working after the Masters.

I'm not fussed, whatever pays me more.

Like, banks are fine for getting experience, but working for Tech in a bank is so frustrating.

Australia doesn't have big money opportunities, and even if they do, it isn't a meritocracy either.

Plus again, you have China right there, why hire from here?

[dreamy spade]

Anybody have cover letter writing tips?

[modern ore]

Damn what country makin you write cover letters 😹

[modern ore]

International issues?

[pale heath]

Yes & No, the Aussies aren't known for being, intellectuals.

[modern ore]

Those firms I mention earlier pay sht ton just really tough to break into

[pale heath]

Yeah, everyone wants the big money.

I suggest the bounce method, get something related and jump ship after two years

you maximize your income by job hopping every two years.

[modern ore]

I feel like if you have that pattern, won't it look bad 🤔

[near ocean]

Why would it?

[modern ore]

i see ppl say 1 year job hoppin, now two 🤔

[near ocean]

I've only ever heard this point from boomers tbh, company loyalty nowadays means nothing

[modern ore]

I was just asking, I guess if recruiters don't care 🤷‍♀️

[near ocean]

Well i dont really know, im just saying that the only people i hear that say this are old people that worked at a single company their entire life

[sleek egret]

by "old people", do you mean like 25 yrs old?

[near ocean]

No, i mean people that work at the same company for 30-40 years

[sleek egret]

uh huh, sure

[near ocean]

🤷 you dont have to believe me, its just what i've seen

[sleek egret]

most of my friends are that age... and precisely zero of them have worked for the same company/organization for 30-40 years

or hell, even 20+ years

[near ocean]

Whats the longest they've worked at one place

[sleek egret]

I know a handful that have been at the same place for over 10 years

one is a teacher, another a cop

another at a big bank, another at a gov contractor

[near ocean]

Im not sure if this applies to those careers, but imo unless youre approaching retirement and wanna spent that period somewhere nice, 10 years is a long time

[sleek egret]

one guy at a pharma.... but his company has been bought out twice so far so... is it really the same place? maybe/sorta?

the whole single company for life thing hasn't existed for a half century, kiddo

[modern ore]

nah kiddo is crazy 😹😹😹😹😹😹😹

[near ocean]

Its an exaggeration my guy...

[sleek egret]

there is no need for exaggeration, brah

[near ocean]

Why would anyone look at job hopping every 2 years in bad light then

If this is a concern now it means its probably been observed somewhere in the wild

[sleek egret]

just put yourself in the shoes of the hiring party and you see why too much job hopping would be looked down upon

[near ocean]

When is too much job hopping a bad thing

[sleek egret]

that depends

[near ocean]

On what?

[sleek egret]

consider a guy 3 years out of university who has had 8 different jobs

[near ocean]

there is no need for exaggeration, brah

[sleek egret]

vs a similar guy, similar credentials/experience/skills who has had 2 jobs

you think that's an exaggeration?

[near ocean]

Isnt it?

[sleek egret]

no. my point is to get you to look at things from a different perspective

if you can't, you can't. <shrug>

[near ocean]

My point had the same intention but somehow thats an exaggeration but this isnt

Anyway, whats a good length tenure for software devs nowadays (if not 2-ish years)

[sleek egret]

it depends

[modern ore]

I feel like if you have a pattern of 1-2 year, it just looks sus 💀 But I am not a recruiter so it might be different

[near ocean]

On what lol

When I was looking to change jobs at 10months for pay reasons the only people that urged me not to were people working their only job since they entered the workforce, ranging from 10-30 years

[sleek egret]

the problem is that it takes time for people to get up to speed. that time costs money. recruiting people takes time, which costs money.

to understand why people prefer something or don't prefer something, just look at things from their perspective

[near ocean]

Wouldnt it make sense then to hire someone that has gone through more onboarding procedures than not? They most likely know how to learn a system

[modern ore]

Ngl, Ima do the same thing 😹

[sleek egret]

if you say so

[near ocean]

Im not saying, im asking

The question marks indicates a question fyi

[sleek egret]

no, that wouldn't make sense

[near ocean]

Why not?

[sleek egret]

what you're doing is called "making a justification to suit yourself"

[near ocean]

So whats the actual reason diverse backgrounds are undesirable

[sleek egret]

huh?

[near ocean]

You keep saying no but not explaining why not

[sleek egret]

ok

[modern ore]

I would expect recruiters to be lookin for candidates that might stay in the company for the long haul right? Like them to become seniors or etc. idk how it works. Or is it just hire someone who passes interviews and they get paid?

[sleek egret]

if by "long haul" you mean at least a year or two, then yes

[near ocean]

People leave every so often because others pay more, if you want to keep your juniors around just pay more 4head

[sleek egret]

but that's mostly because they only get full payment after a year (usually)

[heavy python]

What would you suggest

[modern ore]

ask @true harness and @near ocean they give the best advice on the server 💯

[near ocean]

Im just a mid web dev 😔

Mid as in skill not as in experience 💀

[heavy python]

Look tho I’m not saying I’m just going to have js html and css on my skills part of my resume can I not fill it with keywords and other tech that are used along with the 3

Like react type script git GitHub etc

[modern ore]

Oh you finna use react and typescript?

[heavy python]

Yes I mean I have to learn the frameworks and technology that come with css and js i just didn’t include it on the thing

Alright thank you

[near ocean]

Is that your resume?

[heavy python]

Nah it’s just the technologies and languages used in the front end

[near ocean]

Ok, yea its fine to list them on your CV but shouldnt you know or be familiar with more things?

[heavy python]

What would you reccomend?

[near ocean]

I guess it depends on what kind of jobs you're applying to

[true harness]

nah

[true harness]

have a paragraph on:

• I'm good
• you're good
• together, we would be even better

[coral vine]

Hm... I'm in a pickle now! I was about to start a bachelor program in 2 months, but the coaching platform called formation.dev got back to me and took me off the waitlist and said I can finally join their program ! o.o

So, I'm wondering which one should I do? O.o My friend says I might not get much out of the bachelor program because "all companies have their own way of doing things at the end of the day" and I was saying I think it will really help me to learn things like scalability, corporate structure, methodologies, etc.

But then, for formation.dev I think it's good because I can practice more applicable aspects like getting help with my full stack app, interviewing, etc.

Plus, the bachelor program is fully online. Don't know if I will be missing out on something "bigger picture" if I don't finish my bachelors? :/

Maybe the best path is to do formation.dev then get a starter job from it and then hopefully get into a company that pays for me to finish my bachelors?

[dreamy spade]

Seems straightforward

[summer roost]

Cover letters are generally pretty low value. The only time I'd consider writing one is if my skills on paper are a poor match for what the company is asking for, but I'm convinced I would be a good fit anyway for reasons that aren't obvious from my resume. Even then, I'd try rewriting my resume to highlight the most relevant parts first

If you decide to write one, it's basically just more advertising for yourself. You're explaining why you in particular would be a good fit for this position, while trying not to repeat yourself by saying things that your resume already says

[summer roost]

Is the online bachelor's an accredited program? If so, I'd expect you'd get much more out of it than the coaching platform.

[coral vine]

yup, it is a bcs of computer science on www.wgu.edu

[summer roost]

[vapid jay]

I am 16 y/o. I have knowledge and projects in HTML, CSS, JavaScript and Python. I’ve been learning React for a few months now. I was wondering, what career best suits me? When I was younger, I thought of becoming a front end engineer. Now, I found a lot of areas in computer science, which are still increasing, like ML and so much more

So should I just continue learning to code different things from FreeCodeCamp curriculum? My end goal is to earn lots of money in a short span of time with lots of experience and a mindset which is used to problem solving, and that is why I have started this young (some have started even younger, I am talking about the average)

[coral vine]

but I wonder how I will get much more out of the online bachelor program? I still have to make projects and practice interviewing skills. Isn't the trade off better if I do the coaching platform? since it is more challenging to learn those skills that require more critical thinking? :/

what am I missing out on if I don't do the bachelors program? It's online so it doesn't help with networking.

[summer roost]

The best general advice for getting lots of money is to go to uni, get a CS degree, find a field that's in demand and develop niche expertise in it, and hop between companies building experience in that field until you can command a salary above the market rate

[summer roost]

How many years is the coaching program?

[coral vine]

If I do the bachelors program, I have to do 22 more classes to complete it. Most seem basic aside from data structures 2 and discrete math 2. If I speed run the online bachelors program then I can finish before the year ends. Say 8 months.

The coaching platform I believe is 6-12 months-ish?

[vapid jay]

True. The first step starts with a good university, but I have time right now to develop a few skills, so it becomes easier for me in the future.

[summer roost]

I genuinely can't understand how you could imagine that you could learn more things and complete more projects in 6 or 8 months than someone completing a 4 year computer science bachelor's degree would.

[coral vine]

isn't it about the quality of the education?

one is me alone grinding out online courses and another is coaching with continuous feedback

[summer roost]

Of course, but the reason all accredited degree programs take around the same amount of time to complete (plus or minus one year, let's say) is that it takes around that long to teach the material required for accreditation thoroughly. If something is moving much faster than that, it likely lacks quality

As far as practice interviewing goes, the best way to get better at interviewing is to interview a lot. Start applying for internships early, apply to a lot of them, attend a lot of interviews, and learn from your past experiences. Get help from your university career center on writing resumes, and on general interviewing advice.

Note that most internships are only available to university students.

[summer roost]

Just keep trying new stuff out. Expand your horizons, learn what you like and what you don't like. Figure out what you are interested in and not interested in. Decide what skills you might want to use in the future. High school students tend to have a really distorted view of the industry, because they only see the most visible jobs, and a lot of where most of the workers spend most of their time isn't very visible. Learning more about what jobs exist would be helpful to you

[dreamy spade]

Cover letters are generally pretty low value.

I agree. Unfortunately, some companies make cover letters mandatory if you want to apply for their jobs. Thanks for the advice.

[vapid jay]

Some idea where I can start from? I am familiar with FreeCodeCamp and Codecademy

[pine sleet]

!resources has a list of resources you can check out to learn
!projects has a list of projects you can use to hone your skills further

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[summer roost]

I'd pick a thing that you have no idea how to build and try building it. I always suggest trying to build an HTTP server - I think that's a really interesting project that will show you how some stuff works at a lower level than you're likely familiar with.

[summer roost]

I should also say - I suspect you're undervaluing the university courses (English composition and technical communication are really useful courses for someone working as an engineer, for instance, especially in the current hybrid workplace). And I think you're overvaluing things in the coaching program. "all companies have their own way of doing things at the end of the day" is certainly true, but that's exactly why you're not going to learn anything useful about corporate structure from the coaching program - corporations aren't all structured the same. As far as scalability goes, the most useful things you'll learn about scalability will come from Data Structures and Algorithms classes and from Software Engineering courses. Maybe Distributed Systems courses, too.

[pine sleet]

here i was thinking english composition (which i have my first year) is useless 😔

[summer roost]

it really isn't 🙂

[coral vine]

I am leaning towards sticking to the bachelor program. :/ I do see how extremely important english composition and technical communication is for open source. Like wanting to share design proposals, etc. It was eye-opening!

and I did see my friend struggle a lot working at a company with inadequate corporate structure knowledge which horrifies me. She didn't see the big picture. Which also makes me want to stick with the bachelors program..

Reflecting back on the schooling that I did complete thus far, I do agree that just taking my time to learn things properly has been the aspect which allows me to translate that knowledge to real world projects..

True, I am undervaluing the university courses a bit. It's difficult not to when you hear so many stories of graduates not being able to find jobs or have any applicable skills, etc. Plus, everywhere you hear stories of people saying things like "oh I just got in after a year of study!"

[dreamy spade]

In my opinion, if you passed high school then courses like technical communication is filler to me and I am speaking from experience.

I'd rather have another software development course.

[near ocean]

What does technical communication usually entail

[summer roost]

learning how to communicate technical concepts clearly and concisely

[dreamy spade]

The learning outcome written in the curriculum of the technical communication course I took in college.

Learning Outcomes:

To achieve the critical performance, students will have demonstrated the ability to:

Describe the intent of a conveyed message in a technical communication.
Recognize components of a document (message) and the authenticity of its source.
Evaluate an audience and situation to select appropriate modality of communication.
Gather pertinent and relevant information to support a message or point of view.
Break down complex information to identify key points.
Illustrate ideas and concepts visually.
Summarize document content for different types of audience.
Compare different points of view through discussions and debate.
Recompose information into a persuasive, concise message.
Present a message in a persuasive manner, regardless of personal bias.
Build an explanation for how reasoning led to making a decision.

it's been criticized by students that it's one of the most boring courses in our program.

[coral vine]

it's like wanting to explain a project on your resume to the interviewer but then you don't have the skill so it takes you like an hour because the project is so complex xD

or if you check out open source projects, they have a "github issues section" where there are plenty of issue tickets where people just talk back and forth most of the time just misunderstanding what the job or issue actually is. Then when whoever takes up the task, they struggle to communicate about where or how they are stuck because they cannot be precise enough in their communication

[summer roost]

Reflecting back on the schooling that I did complete thus far, I do agree that just taking my time to learn things properly has been the aspect which allows me to translate that knowledge to real world projects..
I think this is a really key insight. You may be able to memorize things faster than a university course would teach them, but internalizing them and learning to think in terms of those concepts may take much longer than the rote memorization would.

True, I am undervaluing the university courses a bit. It's difficult not to when you hear so many stories of graduates not being able to find jobs or have any applicable skills, etc. Plus, everywhere you hear stories of people saying things like "oh I just got in after a year of study!"
There's survivorship bias on both of those, though. You don't hear people who studied for a year and didn't get in, because they don't talk about it. And likewise, the people who struggle to find jobs after uni are much more vocal about their experiences than the people who easily find jobs after uni.

[near ocean]

Ah I see, you might think its boring or useless but then you get to work, log into Jira and will have to interpret issue descriptions like they're goddamn hieroglyphics if there are any at all

[coral vine]

goddamn hieroglyphics, indeed

[summer roost]

true story: I worked at a place where the business domain experts worked from Germany, and the programmers worked from the US. The bugzilla tickets were about 50% German discussion, followed by someone summarizing their decisions in English for a programmer to implement 😅

[coral vine]

I've never heard of anyone who did a bachelors program and had good things to say about it as a summation, except in this discord channel o.o

[coral vine]

did it work out well?

[summer roost]

I think your feelings about it immediately after graduation are likely to be quite different than your feelings about it a decade or two down the line, when you've been able to more objectively compare the outcomes and prospects for people who had different types of educations and tried to break into tech. The people with degrees tend (on average) to break in more easily, have higher paying jobs, work on more technically interesting stuff, have an easier time switching from one job to the next (which is a key aspect of driving compensation increases), etc. They also tend to be better able to self-teach new material when a business need for learning it comes up, which lets them adapt and stay relevant more easily than someone with less formal schooling

[summer roost]

well enough, though probably less well than if everyone spoke the same language. 🙂

[coral vine]

but these people that you mention are the ones who finished school and got the better life are the same people I'm talking about when I mentioned who were saying things like "you don't learn anything from school" so would you say that they are unaware of what they actually truly gained? o.o