career-advice

[smoky quest]

In general, yes.

If you are 18 or HS, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[timber geode]

Both are multi-national and hire remote.

https://www.synopsys.com/careers/global.html

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/jobs/jobs-at-intel.html

[upbeat ruin]

So i’m currently a civil engineer and debating transferring into software engineering, upskilling on the side… but given the latest advancements in AI, i’m wondering whether you think there’s still likely to be ample opportunity in the tech industry in say 5-10 years? I’ve heard rumours of lots of software engineers picking up other skills in preparation to transfer careers so it seems illogical for me to be trying to transfer in if there’s such a heavy outflow being prepared… given your vast experience, would you suggest it’s still a promising career choice in the mid-long term?

[spark cobalt]

I find it very unlikely that AI can replace software engineers in 5-10 years. Impossible even.

[timber geode]

I'm personally going to say there is lots of opportunity, we're directly working on and developing models to use for specific purposes and applications, and some models also contain or provide feedback on or with proprietary information. I'm fairly certain this will create MORE jobs and not fewer.

[spark cobalt]

Shade lol

[timber geode]

oooooof

[true harness]

to be fair, most of the people who think that are not actually programmers

[sick bison]

I expect it to accelerate dev times which will just mean project loads will increase

[timber geode]

LOL

[upbeat ruin]

Replace, no… but it could automate a lot of the coding side of things which would mean the supervisors would be able to achieve more personally decreasing the need for the same volume of junior staff

[sour tartan]

who is going to design and debug the software?

[upbeat ruin]

Interesting points… thanks for the perspective!

[spark cobalt]

The same could be said with so many advancements that happened to the tech professional field. And what we still saw was constant steady growth in that

[upbeat ruin]

But you could use AI to write a lot of the shell code which would then mean you’d need more experienced engineers to be debugging/evaluating, no?

I’ma just assume you’re a child and ignore your comments

[spark cobalt]

We've yet to see a case in this field where people being more efficient loses jobs. If anything it helps us accelerate and helps more ideas to come to light, which = to more jobs

[sour tartan]

you can be helpful instead of rude.

[upbeat ruin]

Fair point!

[sour tartan]

let's flip the question: what career would you choose that couldn't have the same "AI will eat my lunch" fear?

[spark cobalt]

Which isn't to mention a bunch of the tangent jobs and titles that come from this AI hype. For example: DEs, MLOps, etc.

[timber geode]

we all went through this before several times in history, the automobile, the calculator, the internet, hip-hop.

[sick bison]

there's the energy sector but i don't see ai to coders as fusion to coal

[dreamy shadow]

Plumber.

[lyric onyx]

sorry for my rude comment

[spark cobalt]

Plumbers make pretty darned good money

[upbeat ruin]

Touché. Okay, thanks team. Think I just needed that reassurance that these countless hours weren’t all being wasted! Appreciate the feedback!

[sick bison]

lunch lady

[dreamy shadow]

Looks like FedEx might be starting their own DS team.

[sick bison]

i wonder where we stand with food paste dispenser tech these days

could probably do some pretty interesting stuff with a 3d printer

[sour tartan]

i have to imagine FedEx has long had a large data science team

[dreamy shadow]

No, that's not necessarily true. Data Science teams are a nice to have, not must have. They can always contract out work too.

[peak halo]

I suspect they've had one since before "data scientist" was what you called your analysts.

[dreamy shadow]

Most companies probably do have a team of analyst, analytics team. Or "Business Intelligence".
Data Scientist team, I would argue is different.

[peak halo]

Can you give an example where a company has both, and the two teams have clearly defined distinctions?

[dreamy shadow]

Literally my company (in insurance), has an analytics team and a distinct Data Science team.

[peak halo]

Are you allowed to tell me what each team does?

[smoky quest]

I have seen cases where the analysts/bi are more about answering business questions for PMs, execs, etc. In terms of tracking the monthly growth. Their skillset was more about stats/dashboards. And the data science team was more about helping leveraging ml to build features

[dreamy shadow]

I can provide broad strokes:
Our analytics team works directly with business team, often providing ad hoc analysis for the major insurance coverage lines. Some lighter models are included in this.Shorter timelines.
Our Data Science team provides more NN sided models, including text data etc. Often longer timeline on deliverables.

Essentially what recursive_error stated.

[peak halo]

Interesting

[dreamy shadow]

But you can see this in FedEx too:
Reason why I said they didn't have a DS team, is that they are hiring all levels for both Data Engineering & Data Scientists.

Also, note the company. Analyst positions span across various sub-companies, but DS all are in FedEx DataWorks ™️

[smoky quest]

It's hard to say.
Fedex is so large that they may try to build teams in other areas. The fact they have a whole company named dataworks also imply quite an investment in it. It would be useful to check for how long datawork has existed as well

[dreamy shadow]

Not very long. Can't find much info. This puts it at ~2020

[smoky quest]

yeah, so by now they already have teams in place. Maybe they are expanding at a rapid pace? Or everyone quit

[dreamy shadow]

Optimistic: Expanding, O.W.: Maybe laid off

[visual heron]

We’re the Mario Brothers

[dreamy shadow]

Isn't anaconda just a distribution? I feel like this point is off.

[true harness]

well, and R studio is basically just an IDE

[cerulean path]

i only know 2 IDEs: visual studio code and notepad

[peak halo]

Yes. The author of this sentence is probably an HR person who doesn't know what those are.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, R studio I know. I can understand the being mistaken about that being a Data analysis tool. But unless Anaconda offers something new?

[peak halo]

It's just a weird amalgamation of pip and venv that no one needs.

(I'm being a bit hyperbolic, but I think anaconda is overrated.)

[pine sleet]

Is hiring requirements being written by HR / people without expertise on whatever role they're hiring for a common thing?

[peak halo]

I'm not sure. That's just the best explanation I could think of.

[dreamy shadow]

I had one recruiter that asked if I knew time series, and then asked if I knew forecasting...

My dumbass overthought what they actually meant by forecasting and said no... I did not make it to the next round.

There's a few job postings I kinda fit, making me wonder if I should try to apply.

[smoky quest]

job ads are written by managers in general

[true harness]

i had a question like "what are 5 SQL things you might do on a daily basis, other than 'insert'". i thought it was asking like, what are 5 full queries that you might do, but it was just asking 5 arbitrary keywords. even AND was an answer

[dreamy shadow]

This is why I don't really want to try and apply.

Prepping for this BS & other questions.

Fedex only gives 3 weeks PTO + ~10 holidays. 1 week less than I currently get.

[keen kettle]

how does one with no friends go about finding roomate/roomates

[near ocean]

Thats not a question relevant to the channel, #ot1-perplexing-regexing

[hearty island]

damn my PC is so slow it’s struggling to download power BI. i need to practice with it for my internship

[native lantern]

What are the best ways you can seem impressive as someone with little or no experience?

[smoky quest]

there are no shortcuts

[native lantern]

I need experience to get experience? That doesn't make any sense

[smoky quest]

I didn't say that

[native lantern]

What do you mean then?

[smoky quest]

• have a CS degree
• have fantastic internships with awesome projects
• have awesome projects
• come from a well respected school

[native lantern]

How do I come up with projects that are unique and awesome, while having some level of technical difficulty? that's what I've been struggling with the most recently

[smoky quest]

pick any domain and dive into it. Go beyond the superficial tutorials/blogs and come up with something of your own

the main point is that if you want to appear impressive, there aren't any shortcuts other than being impressive

[native lantern]

Ah, that was poor phrasing. I apologize

[late meadow]

You can get pretty far with being unique with no skill, but ultimately the maximum amount of impression will be achieved by following what recursive laid out.

What kind of projects are you thinking about?

[smoky quest]

finding a project is a common problem. I would recommend to read https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/projectshed
The tl;dr is that anything can be interesting once you start digging into it and figuring out the space

[near ocean]

Theres also a bunch of Build your own X kind of projects you should check out

[native lantern]

the goal was for me to make a project with 1. a web interface using some framework (e.g. React) 2. a project that demonstrates deep Python/programming skill
The idea was a flask backend with some sort of main focal point, but I can't seem to think of a great focal point that hasn't already been done. For example, I wanted to train an AI to judge books by their covers, but when I looked it up it had already been done and it felt like it wouldn't be creative.

[native lantern]

Following a tutorial would likely not seem very impressive IMO, but perhaps I am wrong

[near ocean]

Dont have to follow tutorials, you could do it yourself
The suggestion was to give you a list of cool stuff to make

[late meadow]

Using an AI is a good thought. I've seen some people do crazy stuff with them that blow my mind.

[native lantern]

Well, those ideas aren't "creative" because they have already been done, but perhaps I am being little too close-minded and it could be anything, even if it was already done.

[near ocean]

Better than nothing and if youre stuck on doing something creative you'll have nothing to show for in the meanwhile

[smoky quest]

You should work backward as well. To whom you want to appear impressive? Different people may have a different take on it and may not even be able to judge it properly (I would not necessarily be able to judge the skills of a dentist).

You have mentioned different things about frontend, backend and ML/AI. I would suggest to pick one at a time, figure out what's the "basic" vs "advanced" skills and go from there

[native lantern]

for refereence, I looked around and read that portfolio projects should be technically impressive, take considerable time, are deep into a topic, focused, usable, easy for someone to inspect and see, and most of all creative.

[near ocean]

This is for finding a job, right? Do you have a degree?

[native lantern]

Who are the HR's and interviewers anyways, and who is guiding them? I don't have much industry knowledge (as in the management systems) so I'm not actually sure who I am trying to appear impressive to.

[native lantern]

1. Yes, mostly for finding a job, particularly interships.
2. I am in the process of working towards a CS degree

[near ocean]

If youre doing a capstone project you should polish it up and list it as one of your projects

[smoky quest]

As a simple example, imagine you had to hire a bunch of high schoolers to help you work on your project.
You have your entire city worth of high schoolers who are applying for it. How do you decide who you would accept?

It's the same thing here. The managers and their team have to hire someone to help them develop their next big thing and are looking for the best candidate

[crisp heart]

good Morning friends

I have a question related python and some stufffs

[smoky quest]

welcome! This channel is about careers.
If your question is unrelated to careers, you may want to check out #❓｜how-to-get-help

[native lantern]

My personal programming experience is that have used Python for years at this point (and have done a bunch of stuff with different packages such as Flask, pandas, AI stuff, etc.), dabbled with a lot of other languages and really enjoy functional programming (I love Rust, haskell is cool too). I have a good level familiarity with Javascript, HTML, and CSS and am trying to deepen into more frameworks (both old like React and newer like Svelte).

What I really want to know is who is the person making the hiring decision at each step. E.g. which people should I be targeting? HRs or devs there or what? How much programming experience do the people at each step usually have?

[smoky quest]

the people making a decision is a group of people comprising the recruiter, the manager and the team

so they all have a different level of experience and expertise

[native lantern]

Which of those should i “cater to”?

[smoky quest]

In terms of interviews, you need to think of it as 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏

[near ocean]

You shouldnt really be targeting any one step, how would you anyway?
Usually the most well rounded candidate gets the offer
If you have a degree, work rights, nothing fishy in your history thats fine with HR
If your CV isnt weirdly formatted and mentions a decent amount of tech used its fine with recruiters
If you can speak your thoughts and be calm during an interview (and also pass the technical parts) thats fine with devs

[smoky quest]

yes, all of them. Any of them can say no.

[smoky quest]

think about your school's group project. How do you decide who you want to add to your group to work on it?

[native lantern]

Usually i just carry the project anyways but i see what you mean

[smoky quest]

for entry level/intern, who don't have any experience by definition, the growth potential matters more than the experience (since you don't have any). So having some cool stuff can go a long way

You can take some projects from your classes and then diving deeper into them for instance

[native lantern]

Would Microsoft, google, etc.
appreciate experience over everything else pretty much

[smoky quest]

not sure to understand

[native lantern]

Down the road in some years i would likely apply to a bigger company for a senior engineer role or something. At that point is experience the biggest factor? Or is it projects? Or the interviews? What weight does each part carry and how does that scale with more advanced positions?

[smoky quest]

everything is a factor

you should look at them as compound interest

The more you do now, the more interesting stuff and growth you get, which then means you get even more stuff and growth, etc.

[native lantern]

Okay I think I understand. Thank you both for your help.

[smoky quest]

np.
You are on track. Continue to invest in yourself and some cool projects you can dive into. That will pay off over time and lead to interesting things

[smoky quest]

What kind of help do you expect from the folks here? Based on which information could they help you?

Indeed

and how are folks supposed to know which one you should go down to? Based on which criteria? No one knows you, your interest, your expertise, your knowledge, your projects, what you like and dislike

what kind of knowledge do you seek specifically?

I assume you are looking for something that isn't strictly google-able

oh that is more specific to the company than the job. You could find all sorts of cultures and intensity. So it's rather difficult to give a specific answer that is specific to either path

[spark cobalt]

In general, I'd probably say IT people have a more intensive work schedule/WLB than SWEs, since their work is less asynchronous than SWEs. At least in my company, the IT people are on like 24/7.

[smoky quest]

what do you mean by job levels?

[smoky quest]

so are some swe jobs if you are on-call 😉

that also depends on the company/school. You can find some very pretentious folks or some very chill folks

[spark cobalt]

If you think programming is a better fit, why do you want to go into IT exactly?

[smoky quest]

precious/pretentious folks could happen in any job tbh

[spark cobalt]

And really every aspect of life. Even family, teachers, people you'd look up to, etc.

[smoky quest]

programming and CS are wide and bright. If that's your passion, go for it!
There are also a lot of jobs at the intersection of CS and security

them being?

[stoic fable]

Question for anyones opinion. Currently enrolled at a uni in the us for compsci. I enjoy everything I learn, although I dont feel I learn too much. My program is corrupted without a head professor, and we made a jump from intro to obj oriented programming in python to data structures in java. Since switch to Java the syntax and the structure of the code has been different making it difficult enough to make a transition to. Now we are learning complex data structures in this language and the entire class is either failing or using chatgpt. Im transferring schools next year and am worried about being behind having basically learned nothing other then a visual understanding for data structures. Any tips at all?

[spark cobalt]

I think first you should precisely know what the problem is. For example: Are you able to implement these data structures in another language? Then Java is the problem. Have you ever implemented these data structures in any language? If not, then likely the understanding of the data structure or a lack of fluency of a language is at play.

I think the problem you're encountering right now from personal experience is going from theory to implementation, and the new language in school is adding another set of barriers to you.

Try breaking down the problem into steps that you are able to do in, let's say Python or a language you're comfortable with. Once you have the workflow and logic, try replicating it in Java. You'll not only be able to do the problem, implement DSA, etc., but also draw parallels between Java and a language you're comfortable with

Also just to mention, you'd probably get a better answer in a channel more related to this situation, like #pedagogy

[gentle grove]

What’s the difference between a degree in CS and a degree in SE

[safe loom]

Hello, what's with the ChatGPT mass panic wave? I heard it was going to take away many positions in IT. I often use it when I'm blocked on something but AFAIK it doesn't generate your complex software on the fly?

[spark cobalt]

People who's understanding of AI/ML are limited to the Terminator being scared under their false perception.

[safe loom]

Seriously I've seen so many youtube/medium clickbaits that were like 👻 👻 👻 👻 CHATGPT WILL MAKE YOU OBSOLETE👻 👻 👻 👻 UNEMPLOYMENT IS AT THE NEAREST DOOR👻 👻 👻 👻

[tacit hazel]

👀 lol

[gleaming spruce]

Do i need to study computer science? The career i have in mind is to just specialize one area and get a job with it

[visual heron]

Sorry, but your question isn't clear. "Do [you] need to study computer science" doesn't make sense, personally, make a career in what you like and with at least a decent revenue.

[gleaming spruce]

shit my bad. Im learning python now and im trying to progress to other languages as well. So my main goal here is to just specialize these languages and hopefully get a job. But my mom’s sort of leaning towards me going to a school and learning compsci.

[visual heron]

I see, so you’re still thinking if you want to major in comp science? If I got that well? However if you want it to show on your portfolio/CV, I, personally would recommend for you to go through it

[spark cobalt]

Have to consider the job market in your area. The degree is arguably one of the biggest, if not the biggest, advantage for many countries in terms of landing a junior job. Not necessarily for the content of the degree, but for the simple fact that the degree gives a competitive advantage and it is common for most people applying to entry level CS jobs to have a degree.

You should ask yourself, how do you plan to stand out from degree holders? Why should a manager hire you over someone with a degree? What can you offer in comparison to someone that spent 4 years studying in this field?

The next step is: How do you plan to prove this to managers? While many projects, certificates, etc. can be easily cheated, a degree is extremely hard to cheat. If a manager has a dozen candidates, 11 with degrees and you, and he only has time to interview 5 of them, why should he select you from the pack?

A CS degree is a standard at the company. They know what to expect, etc. But from you, if anything you're a huge risk.

[gleaming spruce]

I see. I haven’t looked much into this but I believe compsci is a vast subject covering all different aspects. But really, all i want to do is program stuffs like websites, bots and whatnot. Im not trying to learn all the theories and equations, just specifically coding/programming. Is it necessary for one to study compsci, in order to be a professional programmer? I’ve just recently started out on this field so im very clueless.

[buoyant seal]

Depending on country and university
Degree can be having relevant teached skills from 25% to 100% of its time related to your desired goals

Even in smallest version, it will be spreaded in 4 years of studies that help you adapt to programming. Learning essential skills
Breaking your mind to accept new concepts many many times

[gleaming spruce]

Hmm, so I guess it’s better to go through a CS course then. I will do more research and make up my mind. Thanks!

[gritty rivet]

There are many of us full time developers with non-CS degrees but I feel myself to be at a distinct disadvantage without the full CS background. So if you're considering it, I do think it's a good investment

[flat knoll]

besides the algorithmic techniques, the academic degree is only a certified proof that you have the capacity to learn, adapt and be consistent, so any sort of education is valid in that sense. if you are a graphic designer from uni and can do algorithmic solutions, the job its yours

if you know spanish, go to argentina, uni education is free and valid in us, and you dont endup in debt

[near remnant]

Would you guys go to a company's "team-building" event if it was on Saturday? I'm working at my new job, first month and I really don't want to go but not sure if I should turn it down....I'm scared of the consequences.

I'm working full remote, like..I never see my team in person, what is the point of this

[true harness]

for team building

[near remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

[analog sun]

Its usually nice to have some kind of connection with coworkers, it makes working a bit easier

[near remnant]

Does it make sense if I go team building with strangers on a Saturday if I work full-remote, we are a team of three, and I don't know anyone else in the whole company and won't see these people again for months?

[analog sun]

Yeah I think so

If the event goes well they won't be strangers

[near remnant]

lmao

i really don't want to spend my Saturday with co-workers, sorryy

[analog sun]

Alrighty then, sounds like you made your decision

[near remnant]

i will just tell them I have a family event on that day

[gleaming spruce]

There are articles saying companies do not care about degrees that much. Not sure if its true but its really making it hard for me to choose a path. I don’t want to waste 3-4 years doing maths yk

[worn orchid]

If it comes down to you or the other guy and you have a degree, high probability you get picked

[gleaming spruce]

shit thats also true

[true harness]

it isn't true

[stone orchid]

is it worth going into ai

[worn orchid]

There are companies that just reject if you don’t have a degree, they don’t care, you didn’t get the degree.

[peak halo]

if you're willing to spend a lot of time in school and it's interesting to you, then yes.

[gleaming spruce]

Do you have a degree mr.turtle? I want to know what its like. Im not the sharpest knife

[worn orchid]

I’m going to major in cs

Ask others, but my father has given me lots of advice on what companies are looking for

[near remnant]

i only have two economics degrees no CS and I'm working in ML...but yeah, nothing crazy just implementation and python programming.
But people always ask me how do I know all this stuff without majoring in CS...

[gleaming spruce]

Did you go with the self-taught route?

[peak halo]

they might have been self-taught for the ML material, but they still have a masters degree

[gleaming spruce]

Damn oky, i should probably head for the degree too. At least it will give me a heads up

[near remnant]

i have an applied economics bsc and supply chain management master's. I've learned programming on the side, worked as a python backend dev for 8 months then I got a junior ML role. I was lucky but yeah...it was really hard getting to this point. life is not easy as a junior at the moment.

but yeah, I'm self-taught, learned everything on my own

[gleaming spruce]

how many years did it take for you to get a job, going the self-taught route

[near remnant]

I started learning programming in 2021 december, got my first dev job in 2022 September

[gleaming spruce]

oh wow, you started with python yea? Mind giving me some books or tutorials you used

[hearty island]

all scammy hiring messages from applying to PM jobs

[near remnant]

i started with TOP then switched to python

[hearty island]

and they're all marketing firms... multi level marketing maybe?

[gleaming spruce]

i see, learned alot talking to you. Goodbye

[dreamy shadow]

hahaha, love to see that. ||I know they mean on-premise machine.||

[spark cobalt]

@gleaming spruce I say this as someone without a degree.

[spark cobalt]

Like I've implied, it's very hard. Why should anyone bother interviewing you when there's thousands of other CS grads that actually went to school that they can discuss with. As far as managers are concerned, they don't have the clue what you know and how well you know it, but they do know the baseline knowledge a CS grad has

Could also experience some ageism if you're like, just coming out of high school.

[night aurora]

Anyone whos a software engineer/ has a comp sci job in dubai @ me or dm me pls

[gritty rivet]

!rules 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[night aurora]

did i ask for paid work?

i asked for them to @ or dm me cause i have questions

💀

[buoyant seal]

this is not usually acceptable ... policy? how to ask questions in a good way. Ask your questions in a public here.
DMs are rarely justified for many many reasons.

[night aurora]

huh?

who are you the server patroller?

[vapid jay]

+run
print("aslut")

[night aurora]

bro is trying to deny me DMing ppl😂

[buoyant seal]

shrugs. that is just recomendation, that can help you to get answers for your questions. otherwise chances are very glim anyone would answer to you.
while in public, chances for your question to be answered will be 10-100 times higher
feel free to ignore.

[spark cobalt]

It's reasonable to assume given your profile

[night aurora]

whats that supposed to mean?

[buoyant seal]

point taken actually. Considering his adds in profile, indeed reasonable assumption

[smoky quest]

If you disagree with the rules, you should contact modmail directly

[analog sun]

Please respect other server members

[night aurora]

show me in the rules where it says ppl cant dm me???

[analog sun]

And do not use the server as a place for advertising

[night aurora]

Are you okay? Look at the original message i posted?

Show me where i advertised and i will gladly agree

[pine sleet]

We're not saying your message is advertising it just comes off that way

[smoky quest]

It's the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[night aurora]

You just basically said its not advertising, so ive done nun wrong

[pine sleet]

Ok. You can just ask your real question here then

[smoky quest]

It's typically done during business hours to avoid conflicts, but these activities are great for you especially if you are new.
It will help build your network across the company and figuring out who to reach, etc.

As they say: out of sight, out of mind

[night aurora]

I already have ive told ppl to dm me end of

[smoky quest]

so you are advertising for people to dm you

[pine sleet]

seems more like a statement than a question

[night aurora]

Bro can you stop talking no one asked😂

[pine sleet]

let's phrase it this way - if there was a software engineer in Dubai who was in this chat right now, what would you ask them?

[night aurora]

And the channel is career-discussion not questions

[analog sun]

!timeout 358262854937477125 2h Respect other server members, and do not use this server to solicit DM's.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @night aurora until <t:1681757388:f> (2 hours).

[warped spear]

Can someone link me to a good latex resume template for software engineering?

[buoyant seal]

https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[warped spear]

ah that is exactly what I was hoping to find, thanks!

[vapid jay]

https://thenewstack.io/coding-sucks-anyway-matt-welsh-on-the-end-of-programming/

i think no code translation to text and LLM transform will take a lot of jobs

[spark cobalt]

Issue with no-code is the more flexibility and precision you want in your application, the closer you get to just coding. Almost all SWEs are doing things more complicated than building like a Wix site.

It'll probably take a good number of freelance jobs, but for professional work, probably not.

[vapid jay]

lets hope for the best, i was thinking about do AI master degree

[spark cobalt]

Nice

[vapid jay]

but as the things is going fast maybe jobs in this area will be hard too

[spark cobalt]

This huge AI hype will probably slowly go back to a simmer when enough of this GPT stuff gets over. Almost reminiscent of the crypto hype

[vapid jay]

backup plan, buy a farm before 2025 🧑‍🌾

[pastel thunder]

how often is it ok to not get any reply after 2 rounds of interview, even when they mention in first round they would let me know about acceptance as well as rejection?

has happened twice already when two times is all i was actually evaluated through test and interview.

[vapid jay]

my first job as java dev i did a interview, they just called me after two months, and it was for another vacancy for develop AI interface

[pastel thunder]

but why? are they doing O(N) on candidates? lmao

[vapid jay]

recruiters generally doesn't give bad feedbacks, not all persons are ready to listen a bad notice, give anxiety didn't receive a answer, but maybe is the best way

but relax, maybe they are analyzing yet

[vapid jay]

does the developer need to remember all the algorithms? Cant he just take reference from internet?
(I am asking apart from interviews)

[smoky quest]

They will know the main ones, and can look up the rest

[vapid jay]

okay

[smoky quest]

they can also re-derive them as well

[true harness]

the point of learning dsa is so that you can recognize when something could be done better algorithmically, and to actually be able to do the better thing without much difficulty

[true harness]

Ultimately, the decision came down to budget and we were unable to support your asking rate.
not like this bruh

[peak halo]

that's an email you just got?

[true harness]

indeed

😩 should have given a lower range

though it's nice that they actually gave feedback about why

[hearty island]

what range did you give them?

[true harness]

30-40

[near ocean]

I dont think any range would have worked

[true harness]

that's also a possibility 😔

[near ocean]

If they had a budget in mind they would have countered

[true harness]

but why would they lie instead of just saying nothing or the classic "we felt other candidates aligned more closely with our goals" or whatever

[near ocean]

Idk, but if your ask is too high why wouldnt they say "our budget for this role is x, take it or leave it"?

[true harness]

that is true 😔. they asked to confirm the range in the last interview, so i repeated the number i gave in the first one, but they didn't say anything

[ivory sluice]

and this was for a summer internship..?

[true harness]

ya

[ivory sluice]

is internship pay typically even negotiable haha. that's surprising to me but maybe that's how it is in tech..

[near ocean]

Full time? So 35 * 40 * 4 * 3 = ~17k?

[true harness]

yeah

[near ocean]

All this for 17k 💀

[true harness]

it's a tiny company, so it does kinda make sense, but like...😔 ¯_(ツ)_/¯. according to glassdoor the CEO is making 450k!

[near ocean]

Idk, seems pretty average, a tiny bit over maybe

If not around 30 i wonder what their budget was like lol

[true harness]

but that number is surely skewed by larger companies that can afford interns /shrug

😩 i should have asked the former interns i talked to about their pay 😩

[near ocean]

Did they not give you an indication of what the pay would be? Either on job ad or interviews

[true harness]

no

[near ocean]

They were trynna shop cheap lol

Oh well, onto the next one

[true harness]

😔. tbh i don't think they're lying, but it is what it is

[sleek egret]

what are they lying about?

[true harness]

mar has posited that the company is lying that this is why i was rejected for an internship

[sleek egret]

oh yeah. any reason any company gives for a rejection should just be considered as randomly selected

that said, some individuals at a company might give you good feedback

[narrow rain]

Help me fix this problem, everytime i try to import pygame or import anything it says this Failed to launch debug adapter
even though pygame is installed

[sleek egret]

this isn't a coding help channel

[true harness]

that's what i got when i asked for feedback. and it's a tiny company; 4 people ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sleek egret]

then there's a chance it's true. hard to say without knowing the people

[smoky quest]

yeah with 4 people, it's unlikely they have much funding.
It would be more likely to be a case where they pay the minimum to support you but you do get to do a lot more things

[delicate bane]

super rip. im surprised you were allowed to negotiate pay for an intern role

[true harness]

they just asked for a range

[delicate bane]

over a call or over email

[true harness]

in zoom

[delicate bane]

interesting

[smoky quest]

nothing should stop you from asking their range now, if you are interested

[true harness]

hmm. fair enough i guess. i shall schedule send an email. though presumably, they will just not say it

[ivory sluice]

Thanks for your time and consideration. Could you please let me know what the budgeted range was for this position? It will help me evaluate future offers in my internship search.

Regards,
x

[true harness]

hmm. ideally i'd want to ask what they would have paid me, had they had the budget. simply knowing what they had budgeted isn't that exciting 🤔. but that is probably not very fruitful to ask. though it would tell me what they would pay for someone to do the tasks they have set out, so maybe it's somewhat useful

[ivory sluice]

mm i don't know how useful that is. if the CEO's claim of their income is accurate they should not have to skimp on interns

the what they "would have paid you" is moot bc they decided not to lol

and the answer is: what you asked, if they decided to hire you haha

[true harness]

oh well

[spark cobalt]

At the end of the day, it's experience. An internship, even unpaid, is likely better than no internship. And if it is a tiny team, there's a good chance you'd be doing some actual development and making impact

If it's in person and you have to relocate though, it's a bit iffy (came late, so don't have much context)

[dreamy spade]

my first job as java dev i did a interview, they just called me after two months

This is disrespectfully too long.

The world doesn’t stop spinning and time is money.

Can’t believe companies call back candidates after two months of interviewing them. Smh.

[dreamy spade]

Idk what’s going on these past couple of days but companies haven’t been reading my applications recently.

[true harness]

did you change something on your resume? though a few days isn't too unusual . also, how do you even know they're looking or not looking

[sleek egret]

I imagine that depends on the type of job you're applying for

just take care to remember, employers are not looking for "people who do cool shit".

well, now you have to decide.

what "flashy numbers"?

um... there are no technical recruiters who are developers themselves.

[near ocean]

Maybe they mean the dev team that interviews

[sleek egret]

how is that "flashy"?

[sleek egret]

what is a "cloud engineer"?

for system admin type jobs (aka "cloud engineer"), talking about security projects like finding vulnerabilities may be helpful.

[hearty island]

yay centene emailed me for my background check

[smoky quest]

it's for everyone. The point is that it shows you have had some impact

[hearty island]

um guys i'm confused

it's asking for the name of my campus... but my campus doesn't have a name?

[peak halo]

some universities have more than one

you can just put the name of the city, or something.

[hearty island]

alright thank you Stel 🙂

[hearty island]

i'm just confused because it asks for an institution city too

so should i list the same thing twice?

[peak halo]

I would need to know what the other questions are and some more of the context to guess what they intend.

but it might be that you would just list the city twice

[hearty island]

alrighty time to lowkey doxx myself

[peak halo]

@hearty island looks like for "institution address" they want a street address (just "1234 Seasme St"), and then the "institution city" is for the city part of the address. at least, that's my guess.

[hearty island]

ty for deleting it. what do they mean by "name of campus"?

[peak halo]

like I said, sometimes the campus has a specific name, separate from the name of the university. I guess yours does not

my university had two campuses in the city, that both had equal status. so they were named after their respective neighborhoods.

[hearty island]

i mean we do have a North Campus and South Campus i just never heard them be referred to.

[peak halo]

[hearty island]

i might call tomorrow and find out

[ivory sluice]

iirc your school, i'd only consider it to have one campus/one location. you can just put "n/a"

i promise i'm not a creep i just have very good memory

[hearty island]

thank you! much appreciated

i have to hunt through my email and find when i actually started my project management internship

[warm bramble]

hi
so i am very intrested in computers and coding and those kind of things i am in 10th grade next year i will be in 11th i live in texas any suggestions about the classes i should take and how i should start ?

[pine sleet]

Hi! I'm a 12th grader also in Texas 😁
Look into taking AP Computer Science classes at your school - I think they're great introductions to those looking to get into the field of computer science. Plus you get college credits and they boost your GPA quite a bit

[warm bramble]

Yes, that is what i am trying to do so last year i took Engineering class and this year i am taking digital electronics next year i am taking
Computer Science Principles AP

but i am trying to look more into it an get peoples advice

[pine sleet]

If you feel confident you can skip APCSP and go straight to APCSA

!resources I'd also recommend taking your learning into your own hands outside of school. Check out some of these resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[warm bramble]

what does that mean APCSP and APCSA ?

[pine sleet]

APCSP is AP Computer Science Principles
APCSA is AP Computer Science A

[warm bramble]

Oh ok

[true harness]

i would recommend to not take either of them. they move far too slowly compared to just self studying. if you want the credit you can just self study the exam

[pine sleet]

Works too if you're confident in that

Also look into dual credit opportunities at your local community college

[warm bramble]

ok thank you guys
and also how do you recommend me to study for those kind of things specially the Python and html those kind of things ?

[pine sleet]

Work on projects on your own time, ask questions if you have them

[warm bramble]

ok thanks @pine sleet hey Robin what is your major? like what are you studying ?

[pine sleet]

I will be working towards a Master's in CS

[warm bramble]

ohh wow

i think we have the same goals in life 😅

[blazing crag]

hi

[true harness]

robin aren't you just a rising freshman

[blazing crag]

do you guys can recommend me the coolest python course you know?

[pine sleet]

yeah but i got them goals 💪

[true harness]

it also doesn't answer the question

[warm bramble]

wait why did you lie about ur grade level if what @true harness saying is true @pine sleet ?!

[pine sleet]

I mean I've got 20 days till I graduate

[warm bramble]

so u r not a freshman ? ur a senior

[pine sleet]

Senior in HS / rising freshman in college

[warm bramble]

ohhh i get it

[pine sleet]

Yeah, pretty much the same things

[warm bramble]

Can u tell me the classes that u are currently taking ? That involve computer stuff ?

[pine sleet]

I finished most of my CS classes so now I'm just taking random CS classes to fill up my schedule
But a dual credit Cisco course that prepares me for the CCNA exam coming up in a few months
And a generic cybersecurity class

[warm bramble]

Oh wow
I wish u luck on that exam of urs

[pine sleet]

Thanks! I hear it's quite difficult but we'll see.. :P

[warm bramble]

If you work hard enough and study for it even if you don’t remember some things God will help you pass it no matter how hard it is 😁

[gleaming spruce]

Got it, Thanks

[dreamy spade]

LinkedIn tells me when my application has been viewed.

My resume is the same

[true harness]

do you only do linkedin easy apply or something? linkedin can't possibly know if they have you apply on the company's portal

[dreamy spade]

do you only do linkedin easy apply or something?

No

[true harness]

how does linkedin know about other portals then

[dreamy spade]

They don’t. I was talking about the easy apply job postings.

[true harness]

fair enough. i wouldn't interpret that as a good or bad sign. it's just /shrug. a few days isn't enough time to draw conclusions

[spark cobalt]

It's been mentioned many times, but you should probably start diversifying where you're applying

The job portals are fine, but I speculate the Easy Applies will be rooted against you. Since I think LinkedIn does some filtering for the companies.

[true harness]

i think before doing that, the resume needs to be optimized further. no callbacks primarily means a weak resume, not really that the job boards are inadequate

[spark cobalt]

^ And this has been mentioned many times as well.

[smoky quest]

which filters?

[near remnant]

What if I want to skip it?

[smoky quest]

then skip it. But don't complain that:

• If you get laid off in the future, no one will remember you or know you
• No one will call you if they find a cool job in the future
• If there is a growth opportunity for you at the company, they won't think about you
• If you do a mistake, they won't be as forgiving since they haven't established a relationship with you

[near remnant]

But if I go to a Saturday's team building event which is basically just eating and drinking, I will have all these perks instantly?

If this is how it works, then it's fucked up

[smoky quest]

welcome to the world of humans

[near remnant]

I'm not anti-social or anything, I love human interaction and I like to do things on my free-time. But with friends or family, not co-workers, especially not on a Saturday.

[smoky quest]

it's not that transactional and self serving. But it's a start

[near remnant]

I'm going to a team building event next Friday tho, but might skip this Saturday's one

[smoky quest]

yeah, that's why I brought up these events not typically being done during the week ends as people may have other obligations

[near remnant]

Yeah, I'm fine with the Friday event, so that is why I'm going but I have second thoughts about the Saturday, we'll see. Thanks for your help tho

[ocean stream]

hey im curious how a degree in physics and a minor in CS with plenty of CS internships, projects, etc, compares to just having a degree in CS with same internships, projects etc in terms of getting a job in the field of CS

[near ocean]

#python-discussion

[umbral plover]

Hey, I wanted to know more about career in Machine Learning. Is there anyone who can guide me on what to do and learn and also on what projects to build?

[vapid jay]

Someone feel brave enought to tell me how the life of an devops engineer looks a day? 🙂

[hearty island]

i found this great website called interview warmup by grow with google. it asks you interview questions and then tracks your response and suggests improvements

it would be a great way for me to prepare myself for project management interviews

[echo nova]

they're getting replaced little by little lol

[sleek egret]

engineers have a life?

[pseudo pond]

what do you mean by that?

[echo nova]

I'm refering about the AI wave effect

Recently OpenAI got purchased by Microsoft, they have more capital and interest than ever

The AI zone is booming, and they're focusing on software developing/engineering tasks

[sleek egret]

it only seems like that because those are the tasks that programmer types care about

there are projects/companies exploring the use of modern AI tools in pretty much every industry, from legal and architecture, to entertainment and customer service.

nice thing is that tools like Siri and Cortana will actually be useful in a few years

[vapid jay]

sadly all intellectual jobs will be afflicted by AI, mainly if it's text based as programming is

when we are talking about jobs only one thing matters for the employer, money.
if AI could reduce developments costs(number of developers), they will invest and turn it on a product

instead of developers move to AI Development, a small number of companies will turn to develop Chat Bots, because more general models are lesser modifications (devs) it needs

[buoyant seal]

https://media.tenor.com/eARfzQt-NhQAAAAd/far-cry6-laugh.gif
haha, nope.
Programming is too complex for AI tech today

[peak halo]

What's more likely is that tools like ChatGPT will increase developer productivity, and increase the amount of work that the same number of developers are expected to do. Because while ChatGPT is a state-of-the-art language model and is very impressive, it's still far from being able to fully eliminate the need for human developers.

[vapid jay]

GPT is not usable for autonomous production yet

tools like auto gpt will have a version by Microsoft, Google, Amazon, imagine after ten years, it's a long time to improve those models, do tools to generate basic codes, and automatize function generating more accurate, and invest in no code programming to reduce specialized developers

they don't need to automate all programming, just make a dummy programmer equals a full programmer, that will make the development job reduce the salary

everyone nowdays wants to go to tech, engineers of all classes

today the great deal for us is automatize some random jobs with AI tools and earn money

https://thenewstack.io/coding-sucks-anyway-matt-welsh-on-the-end-of-programming/

it's a google engineer, not me, Open AI in is this movement too

[true harness]

hmm, open ai wants people to think their product is useful? shocking

[hearty island]

bruh i swear you posted that link before

[vapid jay]

the next two years will be essential to us analyze how it will evolve

[vapid jay]

what i want to say is, the worst case it's not a remote possibility

[near ocean]

What makes you think a bad programmer could use AI tools in a competent manner

The way I see it bad programmers would just get sidetracked with getting chatgpt to spit out correct looking answers instead of solving problems and their productivity dropping even lower

[true harness]

they need prompt engineers

[near ocean]

Prompt engineers need to be software developers tho, devs that can effectively correct chatgpt to the point where its effective are the furthest away from getting replaced by it

Also maybe the server should discourage chatgpt doomposting, its getting annoying

[buoyant seal]

lets just find some detailed answer why it should not be an issue, and having it pinned. And then just telling the pin each time it gets mentioned again ^_^
||or even scripting bot to answer this pin automatically each time when chatgpt was mentioned again||

[hearty island]

applied to UBS for project management

[delicate bane]

i would rather have a counter to count how many times this topic is approached.

[halcyon mortar]

how easy is it to get a job in machine learning if I just have webdev experience?

[hearty island]

i got a culture match assessment from UBS

it's just situational questions

[true harness]

those suck

[spark cobalt]

Why should someone hire you for ML? The standard is a grad school graduate in ML, why should they bother interviewing you over them?

[halcyon mortar]

relatives are telling me to apply to ML because its the hottest new thing

[hearty island]

i know right? this one took like 15 minutes tho

[halcyon mortar]

I have no interest in ML, no passion for it, but people are pressuring me to jump on the hype train

[spark cobalt]

Crypto was the hottest new thing 2 years ago

[spark cobalt]

Then don't do it. No company wants to hire an impassionate person and you don't want that job.

[halcyon mortar]

yeah, its prob harder to get an ML job than webdev anyways. And there prob is less jobs

[peak halo]

if you don't have credentials related to ML, you almost certainly wouldn't get those jobs even if you did apply.

[halcyon mortar]

they are telling me to take a course in it. But that feels like an oppurtunity cost anyways

[spark cobalt]

I'd take a course in it. Good to have an understanding of upcoming technology.

[halcyon mortar]

but they said to take a full time course in it

[peak halo]

If you have an undergraduate degree in CS, but you didn't take any ML courses, you would probably have to get a graduate CS degree to do ML. So taking a course in ML that isn't part of a graduate program would probably be a waste of time.

[spark cobalt]

Then don't do that.

[halcyon mortar]

I'm self taught dude with webdev experience

[peak halo]

FYI, in my variety of English, a "course" is a 12 to 16 week sequence of lectures that awards a grade, and a "program" is a sequence of courses that awards a degree.

[halcyon mortar]

I don't want to waste 16 weeks for something that doesn't gurantee a job

[true harness]

i mean, nothing guarantees a job. except the shady bootcamp + working contract things

[peak halo]

It wouldn't be 16 weeks, it would be 6+ years.

[halcyon mortar]

yikes. yeah, I think they are just saying this cuz they are hearing about AI all the time

[peak halo]

Right. If they're pressuring you to pursue AI, and you don't want to, you can tell them that it would require several years of full-time education before you'd be employment-ready.

[spark cobalt]

And even those don't really guarantee a job as well

[proper bramble]

stay safe

[shell sparrow]

Hire yourself for a guaranteed work

[halcyon mortar]

yeah told them it's not worth it. I'm gonna spend my week making an open-source contribution to Godot game engine in C++. they think Open source contributions are waste of time, but I guess I shouldn't take their advice too seriously

[true harness]

infinite money glitch

[true harness]

why is that more conducive to web dev than learning some basic ML ?

[halcyon mortar]

I'm interested in doing it, I think coding in C++ is valuable, and I'd love to branch off into gamedev

[whole girder]

نو ممد نو نو

[analog sun]

@whole girder @vapid jay do not use this channel to advertise / solicit attention

[whole girder]

ok چشم عباس آقاااا

[uncut quest]

How much coffee / caffeinated drinks do you drink at work?

[peak halo]

all

[true harness]

none

[spark cobalt]

None

[true harness]

my youthful energy keeps me well energized throughout the day

[hearty island]

i drink a cup of coffee a day

[near ocean]

Is participating in scrum rituals CV worthy? its on many job ads as a requirement or nice-to-have

[sleek egret]

it's worth a few words mention if you need some padding

more if you're trying to get a managerial/leadership position

[thick coral]

Hello 🤗🤗😘❤️🤗

[smoky quest]

It's not note worthy unless there is something special about it (ex: you were leading or introducing it, etc.)

[pseudo violet]

I been taking the programiz courses and they give you certificates for each lesson completed and they can be attached to LinkedIn. I pay for my subscription, but do employers think this is legit though?

[true harness]

no

[sleek egret]

I'm afraid no employer cares about such certificates

[gritty rivet]

What employers may care about is the projects you build with that knowledge

[pseudo violet]

That makes sense! I feel like right now I only have the basic knowledge now it’s up to me what I do with it. There is a lot to learn and I don’t know what to go into next. SQL? Or just play around with Python? Or Java ?

Was looking on indeed for requirements and basically all employers want experience in this

[smoky quest]

if you are in HS or college age, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities.

On the self taught route, it depends on your target role. You can see some examples of roadmaps on https://roadmap.sh

[sleek egret]

many adults go back to university, just as an FYI

[pseudo violet]

Well with me working, I don’t really have time to be in school unless if it’s on my own time … so the self taught route works better for me

[gritty rivet]

You have the right idea about studying the job market to decide what skills you want to work on.

Python+SQL is a pretty strong combo if that interests you.

A really good text-based game is a fine first portfolio project to demonstrate basic Python. I did that, plus a Flask API (which involved Postgres SQL as well), and that was my whole portfolio when I got me first/current developer job

[gritty rivet]

I did Nucamp Backend bootcamp. Self-study is best if you have the discipline, but I found that helpful

[sleek egret]

you should learn at least the basics of HTML/CSS/Javascript because almost all GUI's are built with them these days

[true harness]

and XML 😔

[pseudo violet]

😮 Okay! Got it!

[warm bramble]

hey

[uncut quest]

In leetcode-style interviews, I understand that simply getting the optimal solution is not the end-all be-all. I've heard that it's important to communicate what I'm doing + why I'm doing them. What are some things I should always remember to communicate before / while coding up my solution? OR is there something that interviewers consider to be more important than arriving at the optimal solution?

[true harness]

thought process

[uncut quest]

I was thinking of starting off with clarifying the problem requirements -> establishing input assumptions -> identifying runtime constraints for each function -> and how that ties into what data structure I intend to use.

But I've also heard people that just straight up code a naive solution and iterate over the code to optimize it later.

[smoky quest]

a common misconception is that people confuse interviews of leetcode questions with CP.
So they frequently end up trying to do some code golf or trying to fit as many things as they can on a single line. However the interviewer is projecting themselves in the future with that candidate as their coworker. And no one wants to have to deal with shitty code.
So in addition to what was said, I will add that making sure that your code is:

• Correct
• Readable. Avoid one letter variable names or meaningless names. Add comments for tricky parts
• Embodies best practices. That includes defensive programming (ex: preconditions), as well as tests

And yes, the thought process and understanding why you do what you do is important as they can also use that to gauge if you failed for a stupid reason or actually did not understand what you were doing

[uncut quest]

I see - thank you for the thorough response!

[near ocean]

I was reading Jake's resume just now and I noticed that for 2 current experiences, 2 different tenses are used and now I'm confused
What tense do I use for my current role

[dreamy shadow]

Past tense for older jobs, present tense for current.

[vestal kettle]

Code written / Current duties

[dreamy shadow]

Is there a word version of Jake's resume? You know, because seeing latex is just.

[near ocean]

not that i can find

[dreamy shadow]

"Oh we're moving form X db to Y db"
Translation: All the existing excel queries are going to break.

Graduate TA
Taught courses, created lectures and tutored students in probability and statistical modeling.
How would you rephrase this?

[sleek egret]

programmer's response: "stop using excel"

business person's thoughts: "how can programmers be such idiots?"

[dreamy shadow]

More like executive level only breathes in excel.

[sleek egret]

I know more than a few "low level" marketing and brand management kids who use excel most days

[dreamy shadow]

If you have a job that spans multiple years, does that job go at the top or bottom?
Job A 2015 - 2020
Job B Summer 2017 - Winter 2017

Or do you swap these around?

[near ocean]

I would do the order you have right there, makes sense that the most recent one is on top

[smoky quest]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[iron ice]

ohhhhh

[dreamy shadow]

Background, old boss wants me to do some referrals for old co-worker, however their resume 100% needs work. How does this sound:

Hi Jane Doe,

I hope you're doing well. Jane2 Doe2 forwarded your resume to me. I'll happy to refer you to some of Company's job postings. But so that someone who doesn’t know you would see the strength of your candidacy, could you do a version of your resume that emphasizes accomplishments and results? I started a version using a very popular template here: overleaf url

[celest pawn]

How much do you guys make per yead?

[uncut quest]

I'm sure that the pay range for a software engineer is so huge that it wouldn't really give you any useful information.

[celest pawn]

I need that info cuz im trying to aply and you guys prob know

[uncut quest]

There probably are programmers that get by earning minimum wage - whereas software engineers making up to 400k a year.
A good source is https://www.levels.fyi/

But again - it sounds like you just finished a beginner tutorial on Python through Youtube. It'll probably take a while until you're career ready for the jobs in level.fyi.

[dreamy shadow]

Levels.fyi is also biased (Higher than average)

[smoky quest]

sounds great

[dreamy shadow]

Thanks

[celest pawn]

Is this working online from home? or i have to drive there

[true harness]

that depends on the job

[steel kindle]

Anyone have tips for building up a contracting business while working another job? I have a job offer but ultimately would like to transition to contracting within the next few years.

[deft herald]

IMO it's fairly accurate, but includes TC like stock and bonus, which can be confusing for people entering into the industry

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> shitposting

[leaden jasper]

!cban 130384117182234624

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @edgy palm permanently.

[brave mauve]

How can i get work experience without having a Job xd, i mean i know how to program in Python, c++ and Javascript, and i know how to use html and css but i dont know any framework (a bit react) and i dont know if i feel enough confidencen when i will learn them so i would like to start practicing with real problem while im studing xd

[spark cobalt]

Internships are the typical way to help with this. Otherwise by simulating to the best of your abilities some work experience with in-depth projects with relevant technologies as well as open source, hackathons, etc.

[brave mauve]

Is there any way to do that online, i don't think i could do an intership

[vapid jay]

Well I have knowledge of Django Html Css Python just started Elixir / i know how to work with LXC/LCD same as Docker but lighter i also can work with NGINX and still can't land a job 😦

I as well struggle and with the experience . Kind want to be part of project but cant find anyone to work with

[brave mauve]

I'd like the same

[near ocean]

Does either of you have degrees?

[brave mauve]

Nop

[vapid jay]

No :/

[near ocean]

Well thats gonna make things harder
What kind of projects do you have on your CVs?

[vapid jay]

I have some basic website

using LXC/LXD and Google Cloud with Django

[brave mauve]

I already did almost all the tests from the Frontend-mentor

[near ocean]

Is that all? One project and tests from a website? You need more projects and more complex ones too

Apart from having a degree, graduates would usually have a bunch of projects ready by the end, from their studies
You're not doing enough to showcase your skills

[spark cobalt]

Most of your competitors not only have a degree, but projects that have much bigger depth

[vapid jay]

It's hard when you are alone :/

[spark cobalt]

It's what you signed up for :/

[near ocean]

Why dont you have a degree

[spark cobalt]

Just gotta grind and work your butt off

[brave mauve]

The problem that i have It is find projects to do, i mean, is there a kind of Website like a fronted mentor where i can find real project in my level just to practice, the only thing a find is exercise i have a lot of exercise made in c++ and python

[vapid jay]

Because I'm stupid

[brave mauve]

I have a degree but not in CS

[near ocean]

What is it in?

[brave mauve]

Law

[vapid jay]

wow i tough he was talking to me XD

[spark cobalt]

Just build what you want to build. Or build something that has a need, whether that's in your own life, communities you're in, etc.

[fickle mango]

t

[near ocean]

Thats not really an excuse lol

[brave mauve]

It's a little bit frustrating when u take something that's too big for u

[spark cobalt]

Then do something that isn't too big

[vapid jay]

😄 Absolutely true, just not smart enough to do it by myself

[brave mauve]

How do i know, everything on the web looks easy when u see for first time

[spark cobalt]

If coding was easy, everyone would do it. There's always going to be a sense of uncomfortableness and being on unsteady grounds. Embrace it, learn to maneuver in this environment, and you'll learn much more than just coding.

[spark cobalt]

By just doing it.

[vapid jay]

Can you help me work on some GitHub-issues or material for the organization of a project? I will be more than thankful!

[mint sleet]

There are 3-5 hour long videos on youtube, where people make entire games or some neat AI on stream.

Try copying their code, just follow their script. After you reproduce their product, try breaking it down to its elements and change things you like. (maybe a ship mechanic, a weapon's recoil, bot behavior, etc)

That way you can go from something "big" to smaller topics in one projects and learn on the go

[spark cobalt]

GitHub has a "Good First Issue" tag, this Discord server also has places you can contribute which should be pretty easy in #dev-contrib

[spark cobalt]

From personal experience, this method is very good at convincing you that you know stuff when you don't really know shit.

[mint sleet]

But it is a way to start doing something)
You find out lack of knowledge of a framework and read more about it, test it out

[spark cobalt]

You can explain how the parts of code works, but asking to actually replicate the same principles to a different problem is a tall order. How to engineer all these small components together is still very lost, and how to actually know what components you need to build as well to begin with

[mint sleet]

Thank you for your feedback, though. Appreciate it ❤️

[spark cobalt]

I found it much more efficient to just read books and cram on theory. And for several reasons:

• Tutorials on YouTube, Udemy, etc. are very reputably done by engineers with very limited experience, from personal experience, a mass majority having 0 YOE as a developer.
• Tutorials are very inefficient in terms of watch/listening WPM. You're able to navigate, read, and process things from a book much more efficiently at 2x+ the speed.
• Nearly all books I've read and books I have are written by people with decades of experience and/or had direct involvement in the development of the technology. And all of them had dozens of professionals with equal stature that reviewed and revised the book.
• Videos are much harder to update than books, on contrary to popular belief. You'll find very few of those full courses updated frequently (you could count them with your 2 hands), however there's thousands of very in-depth books released every year in this field.

A framework is a tool to get things done. If you want to know how to use that tool to your bidding, know the actual approach and mindset behind it, you'll have much better luck reading a book.

Videos often only give you a single person's perspective on how to use something, and only give you perspective into how to approach a single end goal.

[mint sleet]

Again, thank you for your feedback
I totally agree with you)

Mitternach said he is struggling to find a project to make, so I proposed a project idea solution)

I do also believe book authors are of a higher authority and experience than youtubers

[spark cobalt]

@brave mauve The best thing for a project is to just do something, anything. Why did you want to do CS to begin with? You mentioned that you had ideas but thought they were too big for you, how have you approached the problem, did you try to simplify it a little bit?

Following a tutorial is inefficient and for beginners, a damned good way to get into tutorial hell.

If you do want to watch video, vet the hell out of who you're watching. A lot of these people's LinkedIn is 0 YOE over and over again. And as a beginner, you have no idea what kind of advice is shit and what isn't.

[vapid jay]

Can you guide me please 😄

[spark cobalt]

For bigger projects, you should be seriously writing documents down on how you plan to build it, each component of the project, how they all link together etc. I'm working on a huge project right now and I have dozens of pages of documents, paper used to prepare for it which was done before a single line of code was written. Once you know exactly what you're doing, the coding ends up being the easiest part.

[spark cobalt]

You should learn how to learn.

If you're unsure what to learn, which is a different but understandable problem, roadmap.sh is a good resource.

[vapid jay]

Beleive me im learning almost 2 years and i just start working on my softskills! I studied in total isolation and that didn't work out well for me

[spark cobalt]

https://roadmap.sh/

[spark cobalt]

SWE is funnily quite the social job. Talking to other people in your situation, working with others on open source, etc. is a great way to rapidly develop those soft skills.

When I was job hunting, going to a lot of meetups was super helpful as well

[vapid jay]

This is why i am here talking with you :/

[spark cobalt]

You should try out contributing to the stuff this server has. Really nice and supportive people/community 🙂

[vapid jay]

I got some knowledge of python i know the basics, but wondering are there any courses onlline, that you guys recommend

[spark cobalt]

!resources Automate The Boring Stuff is the standard recommendation here. Head First Python is very solid as well (though this one isn't in the below resources)

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[vapid jay]

Thanks, i’ll start looking into it

[vapid jay]

judging by you i can totally agree

[near remnant]

Which job/career would you guys choose?

-Platform Engineer
-Machine Learning Engineer
-Backend/Frontend Developer

[spark cobalt]

3 > 2 > 1

[brave mauve]

Machine learning

[spark cobalt]

ML is cool, but the work pertaining to it isn't really fun day to day. At least imo.

[near remnant]

I've got an interview for an Intergration Platform Engineer role but not sure what it is. I'm currently working as a junior ML dev, job is lovely and interesting (for me).

[near remnant]

Why did you put the Platform Engineer the last?

[spark cobalt]

It's a vague term which means something different company to company afaik.

[near remnant]

I like my current ML job but not sure about my future career, since I don't have a PhD or anything. I only have a master's in applied economics. But anyways...my goal is to work as a Data Engineer and I hope I can transition into that somehow, do you think there is a chance?

[spark cobalt]

Yes. I think a lot of people are doing that move right now.

I think one of the DS people in this channel did that switch in the past year

[near remnant]

Yeah, I'm trying to learn the most common Data Eng. stack on the side and planning to do a Data Eng. project as well...

[near remnant]

Is she/he moved from DS to DE?

[spark cobalt]

I think it was Rex, yes. I'm not 100% sure

Not him uhhh

He's the coffee guy you talked to like a month ago

[near remnant]

Ah yeah I know, I know him haha. He actually sent me some Data Engineering related books to read, cool stuff

[spark cobalt]

Same like 10 faces in this channel

[near remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/kekw-dow-gif-24856862

[fervent marlin]

test

[lean moth]

Hope this question fits here:
I am writing an email to some company to ask if I can do my master's project with them. I have updated my cv, but now I am writing a letter of motivation. Should this letter of motivation also contain all my contact info, or is it enough if this is all on my cv?

[low verge]

A formal letter with letterhead usually includes contact info too, but if you’re just typing the letter as an email, leave it in the CV

[lean moth]

I have just left it pretty basic as a separate pdf, and put the email and phone at the bottom just in case. thx for the reply!

[hearty island]

alright todays the day i tell my current internship about my summer one

aight they basically said congrats but they’ll probably hire someone new once i leave

which is to be expected

looks like i’m either going to have to wait for centene to extend me a part time offer or apply for new jobs

[halcyon mortar]

I put an old portfolio project on my new resume that I've been sending the past week. Realized it looks terrible. Now feel bad

I don't want to be a developer anymore

I thought after being at a company for 2 years, I wouldn't have to fight so hard to get a job

I'm so sick of this, I don't think I'm worthy of this field anymore

[strange badger]

I need guidance. I’ve been doing Angela Yu’s 100 days of python and have overall enjoyed it. That being said I’m considering going to WGU for either computer science or software engineering. Problem is idk which one to pick. It seems that cs is the “golden standard” does that mean with a software engineering degree it would be harder to get a job? I understand cs is more theory based while software engineering is more practical. Any help or guidance is appreciated.

[buoyant seal]

that's strange. that's totally what i had, 2 years and after that i haven't had trouble to get jobs any longer

[true harness]

darkwind, don't you think that's the last thing they want to hear right now

[buoyant seal]

anyway, point i make, may be just smth wrong with resume or how they are presenting themselves
to visit few dozen interviews, and checking what skills are missing in feedbacks
training themselves to pass interviews basically ^_^

kind of... passing interviews and having job experience are not directly related things

[true harness]

i would recommend to calm down and think about it more rationally. you're reacting based on your emotions.

you've already worked for some time, so you're clearly qualified to some degree. figure out at which point you're being eliminated from hiring. are you getting any interviews? are you being interviewed then rejected? you already recognize that your resume needs improvement, that's a great start

[strange badger]

I recommend getting your resume professionally made.

[buoyant seal]

even if person is having experience, he would still be rejected for reasons not even related to him in good portion of cases
employers can be wishing to have citizenship of country X, being you profficient in Machine Learning (or Functional Programming, or Frontend development) for example, while it was never point of your career to even go into it, and etc
Or your salary expectations aren't acceptable to employer X

Rejections should be accepted calmly basically. in many cases enough u will be getting them always for reasons not aligned with your career. May be employer was in a bad mood today, another reason he rejected u, or u was not lucky to get very obscure not experienced person to interview you (non tech person interviewing tech person in tech topics and expecting precise answer to stuff that should be never precise) ^_^

Matters only that you would have higher enough rate of interview passing, to have bigger pool of choices

[warped prawn]

Hi

[halcyon mortar]

I shouldn't have made that djnago portfolio project. Should have aceepted my fate as a front end

[buoyant seal]

fix issue, apply again ^_^. employers amount is bigger than you will be ever able to get interviewed.

[true harness]

many devs make that exact transition

[halcyon mortar]

idk man. I feel like they only care if you've used it on the job

[true harness]

that isn't true

[buoyant seal]

...for majority of cases, it is kind of true. i am often getting frustrated on same topic xD

[true harness]

why do people use a projects section on their resume?

[buoyant seal]

for majority, but not for everyone. For those not everyone, we do projects and other activities and pray for the best

[halcyon mortar]

I don't want to lie just to have a shot at working with a language and framework I enjoy using

[tough charm]

what is a cloud architect?

[true harness]

i don't think that's the case, though i don't actually have experience hiring. i think most of the time you're just being ranked lower than people with actual experience, not that it doesn't matter at all

[buoyant seal]

in many cases enough when applying you are just welcomed with filling big spreadsheet of how many years of job experience you have in technology X. And it is like over detailed spreadsheet :/ you have no idea how frustrating to see going through stuff like this and being seen only as numbers of years in X things

[unique arch]

Hi, @pine nexus

[true harness]

you shouldn't lie. also, if you are able to get a frontend job, it might be easier to try to move towards backend within a company

[halcyon mortar]

I feel discouraged rn

I wasted my time on that stupid django project and now I have nothing to show for it

I should have never taught myself django

[near ocean]

Self pity isnt going to get you anywhere
There's tried and tested ways of upskilling, getting better jobs, raises, promotions, etc
Doing projects is one of them for this field, why would your django project not help you?

[true harness]

you have the django project. why is it bad? why not make it better? mar is right, self pity is not going to help you unless you do something to stop pitying yourself

[halcyon mortar]

I don't think it's bad. I just don't feel it helped me.......but you're right. There's no point pitying myself

[strange badger]

I need guidance. I’ve been doing Angela Yu’s 100 days of python and have overall enjoyed it. That being said I’m considering going to WGU for either computer science or software engineering. Problem is idk which one to pick. It seems that cs is the “golden standard” does that mean with a software engineering degree it would be harder to get a job? I understand cs is more theory based while software engineering is more practical. Any help or guidance is appreciated.

[true harness]

well, you want to be a backend dev, right? did you learn nothing about django while making the project?

[true harness]

from what i've seen, software engineering is less common than CS, so potentially CS is more "accepted". but i don't have any xp in hiring

[uncut quest]

You should make a personal website / portfolio - maybe that'll motivate you since it gives you something to look at and track your progress. I started making technical blog posts about some of my projects and I'm pretty sure that's why I got some of the interviews I did (and I applied to a LOT too)

[true harness]

(no one is looking at your blog, certainly not on an initial resume screen)

[strange badger]

@true harness that’s what it seems like I don’t mind doing computer science, but I am scared of the math a little bit

[buoyant seal]

watch this. nothing is more inspirational in case of encountering failure https://youtu.be/LmW3H-EXYS0

[true harness]

embrace it! the math is the fun part :D

[uncut quest]

I am pretty sure the hiring manager for the job I'm interviewing for has skimmed over my personal portfolio.

[true harness]

potentially, but that would only be for later stages of the process

[uncut quest]

Right - I probably passed the automated resume screen first I guess

[strange badger]

@true harness I suppose so lol. I’m sure it’s not impossible but I’ll definitely have some things to remember

[hearty island]

oh good news. i spoke to the president of the company and it turns out he wants me to come back as an intern september 1st

he said to reach out to him around then

[uncut quest]

Nice! That's great news

[true harness]

but why, if you say you're not doing anything, and they're going to replace you with another intern

[hearty island]

you mean why should i come back?

they’re not replacing me with an intern tho they’re replacing me with a full time PM

[halcyon mortar]

@true harness I learned a ton about Django. I should be proud of myself. Yeah, no point being so down on myself

@uncut quest I'm gonna start a blog site, yeah. I used to have one, but deleted it. Gonna make a new one with Gatsby

@buoyant seal yeah, in times of failure, one must get up and try again

[pine sleet]

truly words to live by

[rotund cove]

I'm starting the WGU CS degree soon. I think you should pick the one you think you will enjoy more. If you like math consider CS. Either one is going to get you a good job

[strange badger]

@rotund cove alright curious to see how it goes for you. I’m just afraid of picking SE and it not getting me a job because it’s not CS

[rotund cove]

either one is good, it really depends more on what you want to do

[strange badger]

@rotund cove like if I want to develop programs or manage databases?

[dreamy spade]

Is a Web Developer and Web Designer titles interchangeable?

[rotund cove]

either one

[true harness]

titles don't matter. look at the job requirements

[strange badger]

@rotund cove what would you say jobs are that one could get that the other can’t?

Certain jobs CS can get the SE can’t?

[rotund cove]

I DM'ed you an invite to the unofficial WGU discord, honestly the people there are gonna be able to answer your questions better than I can

[strange badger]

@rotund cove alright thanks for that ❤️

[gritty rivet]

Designer implies more focus on design but I agree with what public static void said: don't read too much into titles

[dreamy lodge]

i want to study for microsoft python international certificate for college students...any sites ??

[quick lance]

someone who can build a solution into some cloud provider or migrate something from bare metal to some cloud provider such as aws, gcp, etc

[spark cobalt]

Do CS.

[sleek egret]

nah brah, be a rebel

[spark cobalt]

Do Physics.

[zealous path]

As an ex-physics student… don’t, it’s not fun

[spark cobalt]

[vapid jay]

Hi guys if you are young and are good with web exploitation and networking i reccomend doing bug bounties for companies! I earned 300£ this week for just finding vulnrabilities and exploiting into servers!!

[hearty island]

if i was doing an interview and using the STAR technique

could i be like the situation was etc, the task was this, what i did was this, and the result was this verbatim?

or do i have to vary it?

[smoky quest]

whatever works for you

[true harness]

it's called STAR for a reason, though. it doesn't really make sense to describe what you did without the situation or what you had to do. maybe the R could be moved to the front

[hearty island]

yeah i just think framing it the way i did helps me think

and as always it's about 👏 demonstrating 👏 skills 👏

[true harness]

you don't want to be too obvious. don't actually say "the situation was ... the task was ... what i did was". couch it in the context, "my professor asked us to ...", "the requirements dictated that ... "

[hearty island]

alright

i guess once i keep practicing i'll get more used to the format

[vapid jay]

how do I stay ahead of the competition and get into a good school? I'm 15 about to finish freshman year

[hexed inlet]

dude a Google guy emailed me abt a 2024 SWE internship 🤯

[vapid jay]

how do I do this

how do I get a good internship in general

[hexed inlet]

im not sure for you because I'm currently in uni

[vapid jay]

what uni?

[hexed inlet]

Howard U
I believe there are many programs that will be looking for you to join once you reach junior/senior year
my advice is to try to do well in all your classes and get involved with things

so they'll pick you when you apply

[vapid jay]

what are the things I should get involved in?

[spark cobalt]

gl!

Is it 2024 summer?

[hexed inlet]

Thx! It is. I actually had to finally update my resume so I could send it along 😅

[hexed inlet]

Clubs and student orgs, for one
I can't speak much to this because I personally didn't do too much in HS (don't be like me)

[vapid jay]

but you got a google internship?

you at least had to do something impressive

[true harness]

do extracurriculars. take hard classes. win things

[vapid jay]

what should I try to win

[true harness]

competitions, hackathons, academic awards

[vapid jay]

what if I'm in band and we place high in band competitions

[true harness]

just telling you to apply?

[orchid thorn]

Hi guys
So I have a small problem

I am a self taught programmer trying to get a remote online job in soft dev coz my local market doesn't have many jobs

[hexed inlet]

he wanted to "hear more about my experience and background" and requested my resume and transcript

[true harness]

probably automated then, lol

[orchid thorn]

Any suggestions/tips for me

[hexed inlet]

something is better than nothing 💪

[orchid thorn]

Well I got ignored

[fallen spire]

Some kind of portfolio would help

[orchid thorn]

And as a soft dev what exactly should I have

I will start making a portfolio based on your response asap

[fallen spire]

What level roles are you looking for?

[orchid thorn]

Junior as I don't have any experience

[fallen spire]

And what discipline? Data, web, etc?

[orchid thorn]

Web
I am learning JavaScript

[fallen spire]

So if web you can go backend, frontend or full stack

[orchid thorn]

Already learnt python infact learnt to make basic projects in python

But for web JavaScript is preferred so learning that

[true harness]

it turns out, people need you to be able to do more than basic projects

[orchid thorn]

Yes q is more of what portfolio and how to get into a junior role

[fallen spire]

Yea I would just say to put together a little side project. Something that interests you, doesn't need mass appeal and having that code on GitHub can go a long way when folks are hiring for those Jr roles

[orchid thorn]

Ofcrs makes sense

[fallen spire]

For interviewing specifically it helps to know algos and data structures generally. Something like leetcode or similar websites to practice

[spark cobalt]

If you wanna be a web developer, develop websites. Prove to employers you can build things with depth and complexity in this niche.

You won't impress them with the same Netflix clone that you could've just cloned from GitHub. The whole "what portfolio to build" is not the right approach. Develop websites you wanna build, or, find a need for a website to be built. You can often find need in gaming communities and you can also boast having monthly active users on your application. Just anything

Hell, make a game on the browser. There's so many things you could do.

[fallen spire]

I wouldn't say it needs to be clean or deep but something that scratches an itch for you. Market is pretty tight for Jr's atm but you have an advantage of using newer technology

[spark cobalt]

People hiring you is ultimately relative to what other people they could've chose over you. Research what your competition is building, what credentials they have, and see how you can "beat" them.

As rich said, the junior market is a little tight (although loosening up from what I've been seeing), you'll have to see how you can beat your competitors.

[orchid thorn]

Jr ????

[spark cobalt]

He's self taught. No one's hiring a self taught with a mediocre portfolio when there's millions of college grads with a mediocre portfolio to pick from.

[spark cobalt]

Juniors. The roles you're aiming for.

There's two sides to this:

• Big companies are super competitive and have 4 digit applications for each role. As a self taught, this means you're competing with people with internships, masters, etc. To be frank, your resume won't probably even be read by a recruiter, and will be auto filtered out.
• For smaller companies, you will be responsible for bigger components and have a much bigger impact as an individual. If you cannot match that expectation, they have no reason to hire you, you'd end up being more of a charity case and a huge time churner for your coworkers.

[fallen spire]

I'd agree but you would have a leg up in programming adjacent roles which allows you to have an income while you continue leveling up. I think showing actual results goes a long way.

[spark cobalt]

Sure

[fallen spire]

Yea it will be tough in smaller roles but larger corps hire an ungodly amount of people in general and knowing to code is generally valuable

So as a Jr you may do more ops/analyst type of work to start if you're self taught but I agree you won't be given a lot of responsibility to begin with with the exception of being exceptional and having some success which is just harder to have IMO without the experience

[full coral]

what can python actually be used for?

[fallen spire]

More like what can't python be used for

Performance sensitive stuff, that's what

[full coral]

ok

[fallen spire]

It just works really well as an interface into performant low level code or generally well for when performance is not the main concern

[spark cobalt]

As well as scripting

[woeful jasper]

What is python

[harsh river]

cython?

[fallen spire]

I'd rather go mypyc or numba before cython

[acoustic tartan]

Isn't adam mosseri himself is in London

[spark cobalt]

Rip

[near ocean]

I am so glad i was too lazy and dumb to go after faang
I would have been unemployed by now

[honest pebble]

We had quite a round in Salesforce as well.

[near ocean]

Oh? I dont think i've seen salesforce in the news, how big was it?

[spark cobalt]

Lmao yeah, if I was there I'd be the first one cut

But position I'm in now, me getting laid off is like almost impossible.

[slate harbor]

opted for cs in igcse, what should i do after the board examination to make my career in programming

[near ocean]

Go to university?

Take maths and physics a levels and try to get high grades
In your free time you can pick up python or some other lang but it shouldnt matter that much

[brave hornet]

I'm a high school student, I'm intermediate in python
Finished the intermediate stuff of Html, Css and JavaScript

Does anyone have any advice on what should I do to make a web app? And thanks :).

• I've learned fastAPI as a kind and humble stranger suggested it here...

[pine sleet]

React seems like a logical next step to me

Especially if you're looking to do something in the web dev field

[vapid jay]

I live in india and I ultimately aim to become a data scientist in the future. what is the best degree like B.Tech, M.Sc, MBA can I choose?

[keen shell]

B tech

Any data engineers here?

[zealous path]

No idea about MBA but both B tech and Msc are a good choice

[sleek egret]

I guess that depends on what you think a "data scientist" does

[fallen spire]

They science the data, duh

[zealous path]

XD

[hearty island]

huh my work email isn't loading anymore

did they fire me or what

[dreamy shadow]

Meta/FB cutting people too.

[hearty island]

wow latex to word does not work

[hearty island]

nvm they didn't fire me lol

[vapid jay]

ight okay, thanks

[vapid jay]

im actually asking what degree would look best on my resume

[sleek egret]

that depends

seriously. this is the diff between school and "real life". in school, everything is well structured, unambiguous and fair. in "real life", everything is vague, the rules are unwritten, the criteria changes, i.e. it depends.

[deft herald]

Was your mailbox full? Literally just happened to me yesterday

[hearty island]

nah

[dreamy shadow]

Oh yea, I forgot meta owns IG

Wait, no. They're doing their own lay offs.

[fallen spire]

Math bachelor's and/or master's comp sci

[pseudo rivet]

What are some nice roles requiring python?

[deft herald]

lots

lots of SW roles require python at least as an auxiliary/secondary skill

Kind of hard to answer i guess. You can do a google jobs search for "software python" and you'll get everything from data science to robotics to web dev

[dreamy spade]

My resume got downloaded so many times but never booked for an interview.

[hearty island]

show the resume, we’ll try to do our best to help you fix it

[near ocean]

How do you know its being downloaded?

[hearty island]

this is why i think easy apply is full of shit lol

[true harness]

I feel like you should not be allowed to continue to complain about something when people are actively offering to help

[near ocean]

Huh i didnt know easy apply shows you your application has been looked at

That really is easy, thanks linkedin, very cool

[true harness]

I think it's like, some linkedin ATS where if you import it into your own ATS it can log that

[hearty island]

don't recruiters spend like 5 seconds looking through your resume anyways

[near ocean]

Recruiters spend -5 seconds looking at my stuff
They preempt my applications

[dreamy shadow]

Stop 👏 Using 👏 Easy 👏 Apply 👏 👏

[dreamy spade]

LinkedIn tells me

[hearty island]

because 👏 it's 👏 bullshit 👏

[hearty island]

there is a filter to remove them off linkedin but i don't think it works

i've never gotten a response from a job using easy apply on any job board

whether it be linkedin or glassdoor

[near ocean]

I wanna say i got my current one from it but it might have been indeed's version of easy apply

[hearty island]

indeed and glassdoor are owned by the same company iirc, by recruit holdings

[true harness]

good news maybe soon

[hearty island]

actually there is no filter to remove the easy apply jobs

[true harness]

there's one to only see easy apply

[hearty island]

i'll just ignore them

it's bad for me tho bc most project management jobs on linkedin are easy apply

[near ocean]

Chrome extension project time

[hearty island]

business analytics major (switched out of CS )

[hearty island]

time to look for one

[near ocean]

Passing up a neat little project idea

Tho its js so i guess i see why

[true harness]

switching out of CS 😭

[hearty island]

😦

[true harness]

just go to the website and apply directly

[hearty island]

a lot of the websites don't actually have the jobs they say they do

[true harness]

¯_(ツ)_/¯ then the easy apply probably wasn't gonna work anyway

[dreamy shadow]

Apparently our company has some jobs listed, but it's not listed in the internal job location.

[hearty island]

a lot of people switch out of CS, my old school had a 50% CS drop rate. my new one idk

there's also management information systems (which a lot of people at my old school switched into from CS)

[true harness]

gened for anyone is the hardest lol

[hearty island]

oh yeah i really disliked calculus too

is it normal for a company to ask for your driver license number?

[near ocean]

What the fresh hell is that

[hearty island]

uhhh i didn't realize i was applying for a church pastor position

Project Coordinator at "Christian Care Ministry" could've seen that coming

[near ocean]

I imagine standup starts with a prayer

[hearty island]

the pay is shit too

nah i am not applying for this shit tf is this

[dreamy spade]

I posted my resume a while ago

Is easy apply on LinkedIn really that bad?

[hearty island]

well anecdotally speaking i get jackshit from there

[near ocean]

Did you take feedback into account and improve it?

[dreamy spade]

It’s in progress.

On a consensus , it’s like people expect me to create a super project.

I just make short-term projects that covers all the fundamentals of web development. Front-End and Back-End.

[near ocean]

If you do X and its not working, shouldnt you consider to do the Y people are telling about?

[dreamy spade]

I’m working on making a (another) full stack application but this time Java and Spring Boot as the back-end and React as the front-end.

[near ocean]

Does it go beyond fundamentals?

[dreamy spade]

Don’t know what variables your referring to.

[true harness]

no, there's a middle ground between tutorial size projects and the Linux kernel.

you have to realize that anyone can learn the fundamentals in like 30 minutes. anyone can follow a tutorial. your projects should demonstrate that you're better than other candidates, not only that you know the fundamentals

[dreamy spade]

not only that you know the fundamentals

Here we go again. This is exactly my point. It’s like everything I do is not enough.

People expect so much from a graduate with no work experience yet

[near ocean]

Fundamentals are not enough lol, theyre fundamental

[dreamy spade]

Tell me what projects I should make then

[near ocean]

idk man, but go beyond basic CRUD stuff

We're not asking you to innovate lmao

[true harness]

but you haven't really done anything. you said your projects only demonstrate the fundamentals

[dreamy spade]

If idk then how are you advising me that fundamentals aren’t enough?

[dreamy spade]

CRUD are fundamentals…

[near ocean]

Because obviously its not working for you, doesnt take a genius to make that connection

[near ocean]

What does this mean, are you agreeing or disagreeing

[dreamy spade]

You just said fundamentals are not enough but you are suggesting me to make something that are fundamentals (CRUD)…

[near ocean]

go beyond basic CRUD

[dreamy spade]

What are beyond CRUD?

[near ocean]

More complex stuff than insert into x values (y)...

Are you a CS graduate?

[dreamy spade]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-really-stressed-mad-angry-gif-16109475

[dreamy spade]

I am a Computer Programming graduate and please be more specific.

I don’t want to make something again and then you say it’s still fundamentals

[near ocean]

As a computer programming graduate, can you not think of more complex relations and operations than simple CRUD stuff?
Do you not have projects from your studies?

[dreamy spade]

As a computer programming graduate, can you not think of more complex relations and operations than simple CRUD stuff?

I made dozens of personal and college projects and people keep telling me that they are all basic which I why I ask people like you to see if they can come up with better ideas.

Do you not have projects from your studies?

Yes but they are “basic.”

[true harness]

you shouldn't be worrying about pleasing mar or someone here. you need to worry about the fact that your resume is being rejected, and the one thing you can change is your projects

[dreamy spade]

https://tenor.com/view/what-more-do-you-want-from-me-crying-emotional-what-do-you-want-gif-14843331

[true harness]

@dreamy spade
it's difficult to define what "beyond fundamentals" actually means, because it's too vague. what we're trying to tell you is that your projects should demonstrate that you know skills that are not simply fundamentals.
mar gave an example with SQL. maybe you can have few tables that are normalized, and you use joins to grab some data. maybe you have some migration scripts. maybe you're using AWS or something to host it. anything that isn't just basic SELECT and INSERT

[true harness]

again, we're just trying to help. you should be thinking about what potential employers want, not us. since you're not getting interviews, you know they don't just want fundamentals

[misty berry]

Hey guys! Learning python now and wishing to start in Machine Learning area. You guys recommend starting learning already a ML framework or start with django or another backend framework?

[vapid jay]

Hello if you want to specialize in ML, once you have acquired a solid knowledge of Python, you can move to libraries such as Pandas, NumPy and get into TF, Keras, PyTorch. Personally I think that learning Django or a backend framework wouldn’t useful for your objectives.

[hearty island]

wow i haven't seen this happen before

[true harness]

uncommon workday L

[hearty island]

i'm waiting to get my background check approved by my summer internship

[smoky quest]

joins, transactions, roll ups, sagas, sharding, partitions, cache (with different invalidation strategies), lock free algos on caches, etc.
You can even combine a SQL db with an elasticsearch instance for searches, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Basic is all relative to what your competitors are making. Have you seen the resumes of new grads that got into FAANG for example? Those would likely be the best resumes to look at.

[true harness]

actually, reddit should have tons of those posts. stuff like "here's how i got into faang" or whatever, with resumes

[dreamy shadow]

"I ate, breath and dreamed of leet code every day for 4 months straight."

[pine sleet]

the leetcode account after getting into faang:

[dreamy shadow]

Github account too:

[spark cobalt]

My GitHub took a dive as well

No public things done 😦

[burnt pine]

I wanna be a super hero

[true harness]

got an offer

[spark cobalt]

congrats

[true harness]

when it says "this offer will expire after 3 business days from the date of the letter", and the date is today, does that mean i have to submit before tuesday? is today counted?

[leaden jasper]

yeah, I would say Tuesday

[true harness]

as in, tuesday is the last day i can submit it? or before tuesday

[leaden jasper]

Submit before COB Tuesday

[true harness]

close of business? so like before 5pm or something i suppose

[leaden jasper]

yeah, close of business. 5pm is the standard time for that, but obvs by timezone. Because I'm east coast but working for a west coast company, my COB is 8pm

[true harness]

i'm probably going to respond by tomorrow night, but just checking

[vapid jay]

why is it normal to apply to 100s of companies and get very few interviews?

[true harness]

there's a lot of competition

[hearty island]

everyone wants an internship or job

[peak halo]

Yes, that's how it usually works for early career people

[vapid jay]

then why are new outlets still talking about there being thousands of open jobs in it and they cant find people

[peak halo]

Because they want experienced people

[vapid jay]

yeah but experienced people are further down the line product. you cant make them. isnt it asinine to complain about it

[leaden jasper]

A business has particular time-sensitive needs. There aren't enough people with the relevant experience to fulfill those needs. It takes time to train up junior people, but that doesn't really solve the business' current problem.

[vapid jay]

what do you think about the businesses current problem is? i hear the same from a lot of other people who are in wildly different fields?

[leaden jasper]

It varies wildly per field, but generally there is work that needs to be done that requires skilled and experienced people. There is the general issue the government is seeing where they have a large part of the knowledgeable workforce retiring but because of various hiring freezes, they don't have the mid-career people to fill all those positions. So there's a gap

Different industries can point to different causes though

[vapid jay]

So is this also affected by the drop in population numbers, as boomers are retiring a lot of their positions cannot be filled?

[hearty island]

what do we think? the above bullet is one of my current bullets and i'm trying to quantify an impact

i liked either that or "Managed a team of 5 members to complete a project within 3 months using Smartsheet, resulting in a 20% increase in productivity and an on-time delivery rate of 98%."

[dreamy shadow]

You should revise what chatgpt outputs. It's language is a little odd.

[hearty island]

yep

[smoky quest]

Each job has thousands of applicants. So statistically, unless you are at the top of the curve, you will have to increase your chances by applying to more jobs

[smoky quest]

As an interviewer, I care a lot more about what you did with smartsheet or what it has enabled you, than the fact you know about smartsheet.

So the fact you used smartsheet is an implementation details of the fact you are awesome at project management and collaboration

[hearty island]

that's why i like having quantifiable impacts in my resume

[onyx salmon]

Tô sem áudio

Permissão eu não tenho pra usar microfone

[cinder dagger]

Hi

Is anyone a data analyst or something similar here?

[quartz vine]

Why?

[ancient oracle]

hello guys

[vivid otter]

Hey guys

i just got accepted 😛 at Uni , is Engineering Physics the right choice

[zealous path]

Yeah, why?

[zealous path]

Depends what you wanna do after

[vivid otter]

well i wanna continue to study aboard for M.Sc after

[zealous path]

And then after that

[near ocean]

What kind of msc

[vivid otter]

Probably computer science,physics or astronomy

[vivid otter]

Software related job perhaps?

[near ocean]

Why do you want to do an MSc in the first place? Its not really typical for software jobs

[vivid otter]

i mean anyone with high IQ or decent intellect can do tech job

[near ocean]

Anyone can do an MSc as well

[zealous path]

Homie, you named a whole market.
Do you know if backend/frontend/full stack?
Maybe an industry?
What do you see yourself doing day to day?

[vivid otter]

to be honest i dont really know a lot about that industry since i just graduated HS and about to start Uni, i only have python core skill-

and Arduino

[near ocean]

If you have no (valid) reason to do an MSc you should focus on your bachelors to get a good grade and a couple internships

[zealous path]

I was gonna say it depends on which country applejuice is from but the HS->Uni pipeline makes it clear

[vivid otter]

what do you mean ,makes it clear?

[zealous path]

So if you were in the U.K., I’d tell you to disregard what Mar said but you’re in the US so internships affect you differently

[vivid otter]

oh nah im not from the US

im from Indonesia 😛

[zealous path]

I know even less to recommend you then

[vivid otter]

ah alright

[cinder dagger]

Yah I wanna know if applied math or computer science track in math major, with big data technology minor would be better for future career

Somehow I read the future courses I will be taking and I find the applied math course to be filled with too many courses that are not that useful for career (except being a professors) and those which are useful, e.g courses about data analytics tools, complex analysis, could be studied in the computer science track too

[zealous path]

No idea what you’re asking but generally as long as you did STEM, you’ll do good in DA.
It’s mostly “did you do STEM?” and “Are you a good culture fit?”

[cinder dagger]

And the computer science track have a few more computer courses which should can prepare me better for future career rather than learning how to prove why 1+1 =2

Well I guess I am missing the E

[near ocean]

Why? People do internships in the UK and it puts you miles ahead of your peers

[cinder dagger]

I am from school of science, with big data technology minor, and literally a math major , so that’s STM

Btw this is the courses I have to study in the two tracks. While I admit some courses in applied math track elective are useful, but those could be learned in computer science track too

[zealous path]

Sorry, got confused cause for me it’s different things.
To me:
Internship - 1~2 months shadowing someone once a week (basically extra homework)
Placement - take a whole year to work at a company whilst taking classes and exams

[cinder dagger]

I think that the course data analytic tools, complex analysis (maybe), and introduction to math in image processing might be useful (btw these could be studied in computer science track too)

[hearty island]

wow my boss made me a counter offer to stay at the current internship and not do the summer one

[cinder dagger]

But I don’t think the rest are that much useful if I don’t wanna be a professor

[near ocean]

A placement is part of your degree
An internship is more like a summer job at a company
Half my class in uni did internships in the summers between years

[hearty island]

i’m still going to do the summer one

[dreamy shadow]

How much coding do you want to learn?

[cinder dagger]

And one advantage I found in computer science track is I would need to study more useful courses specifying for careers, e.g. design and analysis of algorithms and more

[cinder dagger]

Well as long as it is enough for me to get a job and having enough knowledge to be not a dumbsh*t when working I am fine

Cus for now I only have very basic knowledge of C++ and python, and I don’t think I can perform properly in internship at all. I am slightly worried if I go for applied math track, I would be studying too much courses that are not useful for careers except being a professor.

With a big data technology minor, and math major, I suppose I would have a career somewhere similar to programmer or data analyst

And I thought a computer science track should be more helpful in terms of CV and gaining useful knowledge in career. Pls tell me if I am having any wrong idea. I want suggestions thxx

[dreamy shadow]

What does big data technology cover?

[hearty island]

he was like you’re just going to be a replaceable cog in a big machine

[cinder dagger]

I do plan on studying some online certificates, but I think I need internships first. Working experience matters a lot to my CV and future career I suppose

[true harness]

internships are important, certificates are not really

[cinder dagger]

I am here to ask cus I believe there should be some ppl who are already working and would know what knowledge would be more useful in future career. Pls help. Any suggestion would help

[dreamy shadow]

Programmer tends to be heavier on the CS side, i.e. having a CS degree. What you learn in CS is fairly different vs the big data technology minor.

"Useful knowledge" depends on the career you want to do. And what field you want to go into.

[cinder dagger]

Data analyst, I suppose. Programmer would be a second choice cus I believe I would have more math and data knowledge than programming knowledge

One thing is that the CS track have courses about database management systems and data structure, which should be helpful in the future