career-advice

[pine sleet]

Some of the more niche ones
Like compiler design or language development
But those are very research-based and you'll generally want a PhD in research based fields

[spark cobalt]

The market is only oversaturated relative to what you're able to provide.

[low field]

I don't really want to do web development that much being honest. I just really enjoyed doing the Pokedex thing where I went through APIs, displayed the information, and played with the graphics.

[brittle thorn]

My mother hates tech lmao

[spark cobalt]

Senior web developers have no struggle getting a new job while juniors may have more of a trouble getting a new job. This is all relative to what you're able to provide.

[low field]

Okay so the only one's that aren't as competitive require PhDs.

[pine sleet]

I personally enjoy webdev but I'll be damned if I have to do it for a job.
Keep it as a hobby, lol

[brittle thorn]

Or work experience

[low field]

I didn't realize that Front-End = Web developer?

[spark cobalt]

Web developer is a loaded word to begin with.

[pine sleet]

They have a lot of overlap
And yeah "web developer" is kind of broad

[low field]

Don't web developers get paid (relatively) poorly?

[summer roost]

There aren't many front-ends that aren't web frontends anymore.

[pine sleet]

On average I'd say so, yes

[summer roost]

compared to other types of software developers, yes. Compared to the population as a whole, no.

[spark cobalt]

To other things in tech, sure. But to other things in America, you'd be making 2x more the average wage within your first few years of working.

[pine sleet]

But like I mentioned, low bar to entry. Also a lot of demand.
If you want to get your foot in the door, it may be a good choice.
Work there for a little bit, make connections, and get the hell outta there, lol

[low field]

Honestly I'd be happy if my first job pays $55k

I'd also be willing to branch out once I get the job.

[pine sleet]

Do you think that's enough to support you?

[spark cobalt]

In LCOL that's way more than enough. I can probably keep my current lifestyle with 55k salary and I live in Cupertino.

[pine sleet]

Taking into account family, home, loans, that sort of thing. All important to consider

[brittle thorn]

Stay single lmao

[pine sleet]

Lmao 💪

[low field]

For now yes. I make less currently.

[summer roost]

even in a MCOL area, that's a good amount to get paid for a first job (compared to the population as a whole)

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[low field]

Long term maybe 80k.

[spark cobalt]

I think the major flaw with your plan was you never a.) discovered what tech can offer to you, you never looked into what kinds of roles you can do to begin with and b.) never discussing with developers from that sort of tech on what kind of skills you should have, what projects would compel someone to hire someone like you, etc.

[pine sleet]

To not discourage you too much, though - it's never too late!

[spark cobalt]

It isn't just "build projects and get a job." You built some pretty nice projects, that just also so happen to not be representative of things you'd use in the industry.

Yeah, it's great that you did reach out eventually. Some other self taught people don't and solely ride off of the clickbait Youtubers that are really just full of shit.

[low field]

The first major step was to simply "learn how to code". I assumed once I " know how to code" it will be easier to learn other things

[summer roost]

it is - but that's just the first step.

[low field]

Now that I am competent enough to code projects in Python, CSS, and HTML I can now learn the stuff that's mandatory for the industry.

[pine sleet]

There's a whole rabbit hole to the tech field

[spark cobalt]

First step of many. There's still loads of theory, ideas, etc. that you need to know way beyond than just knowing how to code.

[low field]

I assumed "learning to code" was the first and most difficult step.

[summer roost]

no, not by a long shot.

[pine sleet]

As an example, Like GG mentioned, if you know HTML, JSX/TSX will now be much easier (which is special syntax used in React apps)
If you know Python, you know a popular language that many companies use for their backends
You also know the language of choice for data scientists and artificial intelligence folks

[low field]

Yeah that was my thought process.

[summer roost]

Copy-pasting something that I said the other day in a different context:

I mean, you can learn most of the mechanics of programming in just a few months. Python's got, what, 30 keywords? Maybe 20 operators? You learn enough that it's possible for you to write any possible program pretty early on in your programming career, and everything after that is just learning how to do it well. How to do it in a way that performs well, and that is maintainable, and that lets you work together with other people and continue building on the same code base over time. Learning how to scale, basically.

learning how to code is the easy part, much easier than learning to design.

[spark cobalt]

That's a pretty nice copypaste

[low field]

Like this was my plan:

1. Learn to Code
2. Once a few projects finished apply for jobs
3. While applying for jobs keep learning how to code, network, and do opensource work

[pine sleet]

I spy a problem with step 2 👀

[spark cobalt]

That sounds like your original plan + network/open source and we've been spending the past however long pointing out the flaws of it.

[low field]

That's why I said "was"

[pine sleet]

Simply "a few projects" might not cut it to convince companies to hire you
Especially as someone with a degree not related to the field of work

[spark cobalt]

What is your updated plan?

[low field]

1. Fix Resume by combining Projects/Experience.

2. Learn Front-End (React, Vue, Svelte and Angula) https://roadmap.sh/frontend/

3. Open Source Projects (try Python Discord)

4. Do Freelance Projects

5. Go to conferences and meetups (React and JavaScript)

[pine sleet]

That's a better plan than you had before
One foot in front the other 😄

[low field]

Is it realistic to plan to do all of the above by the end of the year?

[brittle thorn]

I think so

[pine sleet]

It could be
You have a whole 12 months

[spark cobalt]

Since you've been programming for 2 years already, it really should be.

[spark cobalt]

I would also add personal projects.

[low field]

Okay, be honest. How would you rate me as a programmer? Am I that bad?

[pine sleet]

You're not bad
Just at the stages of someone just learning to code

[spark cobalt]

Idk how many hours you committed per day for the past 2 years. I was able to do more in 2 years because it was COVID for me and I could spend day and night everyday coding.

[brittle thorn]

And everybody is learning

[spark cobalt]

Your code writing seems pretty decent, you are splitting up commits (though I would name them and compartmentalize them a little better), etc.

But yeah always learning. I would spend a lot of time reading code from other developers, reading books into some inner workings of the web, APIs, databases, etc.

[low field]

I see. I will continue to try to network during this time as well, who know I could get really lucky and get a job.

[spark cobalt]

All your learning will be going down a trail someone already made and millions have already walked upon.

[low field]

Thanks for all the help everyone! 🙂

[spark cobalt]

gl

[pine sleet]

What happened to the path less traveled

[low field]

Just one more question, what are the advantages of focusing on backend instead of frontend development for me??

[pine sleet]

Backend is generally a more bearable field to work in
And higher pay compared to front-end

[spark cobalt]

I work full stack and yeah backend is typically much more fun to work with.

I don't have a huge preference between both, but just I really hate JS, HTML and CSS which makes it insufferable to many.

[low field]

What are the steps to focus on that? Maybe my backend work just left a bad impression.

[spark cobalt]

https://roadmap.sh/ There's backend roadmaps as well.

[low field]

I don't mean to sound indecisive, just want to cover all ground.

And honestly I like "making the entire project" then just focusing on one thing. But I know that's not how it works.

[spark cobalt]

Backend is a loaded word as well. Basically means anything that's not JS/HTML/CSS frontend stuff, which is like, fucking everything else in tech.

[pine sleet]

You know, now that you mention it full-stack might be a great fit for me
I enjoy frontend just as much as backend (if not more) but I really don't want to exclusively as a job. Fullstack combines both of those, right? Would be pretty fun

But oh well. I'm going for an electrical engineering degree so probably won't be pursuing CS as a career haha
Unless I decide to switch, probably will. Don't know

[low field]

Sounds appealing. I don't like CSS and JS seems like a headache. What are the "hot things to learn?" In front-end it was React, Vue, Svelte and Angula, what about backend??

[low field]

Fullstack seems fun but I assume I'll be biting off more than I can chew?

[spark cobalt]

I generally spend like 2-3x more time on frontend than backend for a complete back to front new feature. Backends are way more predictable than having to deal with 0293038948243839 screen sizes on 24929438923489243893489 browsers.

[pine sleet]

Python (and all the popular frameworks like Flask, FastAPI, Django)
Node.js (and all it's popular frameworks like Express.js, Nest.js)
PHP, Ruby on Rails, that sort of thing

[spark cobalt]

Go with Fiber is getting increasingly popular too.

[pine sleet]

Luckily on tailwind I only have to account for 4 different screen sizes 😄

[pine sleet]

Oh, and dare I say Rust

[spark cobalt]

I kind of really like the React framework tbh, I find it super satisfying to build all these little puzzle pieces then fit it together. But then it comes with JS/HTML/CSS which I hate

[low field]

I already know some Flask. Maybe backend will be better. Thanks for the help everyone. While I was leaning front-end. I'll take a hardlook on where my path will take me.

[spark cobalt]

Your Flask seemed very basic. Definitely can expand there.

[low field]

Yes but it's something lol 😛

[spark cobalt]

[low field]

I'll start doing open source projects tomorrow. I hope that I finish learning everything by year's end and manage to get a job.

[spark cobalt]

Idk how common the Python web frameworks are used in the industry. I'm fairly certain MERN stack is more popular though. Why web developers do this to themselves is beyond me.

[pine sleet]

Not too popular but definitely have a presence. Enough to worth having under your belt

[spark cobalt]

As if frontend wasn't already shitty enough with JavaScript, you want to build the entire backend with it too?????

[low field]

I have to learn other full languages besides Python (Java, C+, Ruby)?

[pine sleet]

We'd love to get a few more hands around in #dev-contrib ! I'll probably be posting an announcement looking for help on the project I'm leading, if you're interested in that. Lots of opportunities here and elsewhere

[brittle thorn]

Software utility belt...

[low field]

I'd be very interested.

[pine sleet]

FWIW I've been milking my involvement here and listing it as a "leadership position" for all it's worth so you're not alone 😛

[spark cobalt]

[pine sleet]

Though it might also be high time I start taking my own projects seriously 🤔
I've been working on and off on like 20 different projects
I'm scatterbrained like that
Should probably consolidate them into solid git repos

[delicate bane]

are you sure you dont want to do software as a career? still sticking with hardware huh?

[dreamy torrent]

you still love this channel

anyone here do grad school

[spark cobalt]

Stop pinging me here then

[dreamy torrent]

but i miss u

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy torrent]

can u tell me if im the crazy one here

so i'm in this activist group, and this dude wants to collab with a dev to make an app (he is studying ux design, it's a volunteer thing mainly as a activist thingy), im like yo im game and hes like ok u got industry experience

why would that matter for a volunteer thing xd right? like what are you asking haha

[pine sleet]

Not really... dad picked it out for me, lol

[spark cobalt]

Well, if you built a website all in VanillaJS and it ends up being not scalable and they have to do a rewrite, well . Or end up not accounting for security issues. Or build a website that only works for specific devices. Lots of situations/design/structure/etc. a person with experience would have ran into and can take into account in a project etc. etc. etc.

[dreamy torrent]

yea i get that but, lets be real you don't need to be 5+ years industry experience to know how to build an app that can scale... especially cos i told the dude ive made an app both front and back end. i guess more than anything i'm annoyed hha. like i can even get a unpaid volunteer position xd

[spark cobalt]

They may not be losing money, but they're losing time if you build an app that is simply just buggy or doesn't work.

It's pretty reasonable to ask imo. But yeah I get where the frustration comes from.

You want to work, and they want their thing to work.

[dreamy torrent]

id dont think so, considering its a volunteer position, beggars can't be choosers, like obviously you dont want to work with someone who cant code but i can and have projects to show and a 4 months away from bachelors

his loss a) the app he wants to make already exists b) i can make it on my own, ux is easy

[spark cobalt]

Just demo the projects you do have and say you can at least replicate it and if not make it better than what you've already made.

[dreamy torrent]

nah i just came here for therapy i think, i showed him the app i made lol its a volunteer position not wanting it that bad

[spark cobalt]

Is what it is. Probably no one else in that group getting paid either.

[dreamy torrent]

from my understanding its not even a group, its him with "an app idea" lol

[spark cobalt]

Whats his major

[dreamy torrent]

UX/UI

[spark cobalt]

Didn't know that was a major. Interesting

[dreamy torrent]

yup haha, anythings a major if you try hard enough

nah ux is useful im kidding

[brittle thorn]

Many do I think it's a crazy world don't let people abuse your kindness

[spark cobalt]

I feel like UX is pretty common sense. Less clicks and intuitive for the uneducated and it's a good UX....

[brittle thorn]

Make your own project instead then

[dreamy torrent]

ty kind sir

[spark cobalt]

I would understand if it was like volunteering for an already existing group that you believe in their message. But this is just :/

Like some charity or other non profit organizations, people work, get hired, some don't, even if they're all unpaid.

[brittle thorn]

Check if there are upsides ....like networking with others or cool tech if not then there maybe better use of your time

Also if app is exciting...if not then meh

[summer roost]

I bet the UX majors would say something similar about software dev 😋

It's really easy to say that a field looks easy from the outside. There's a fair bit of psychology in play in UX, as I understand

[spark cobalt]

Hmm. I know a person that was a psychology major that works on how to make people spend more on games and I guess that would be considered UX. But she said it's not that difficult, the formulas are already written, you just have to apply it.

[summer roost]

.xkcd 793

[flat anvil]

XKCD comic #793

If you need some help with the math, let me know, but that should be enough to get you started! Huh? No, I don't need to read your thesis, I can imagine roughly what it says.

2010/9/15 - #793, 'Physicists'

[spark cobalt]

[coral hound]

did I hear about a website at some point where jobs apply to you? can't seem to find it on google

[true harness]

there is actually a lot of research on good UX. it seems simple because you don't notice the amount of work that goes into it when it works well

[near ocean]

not me having to figure this shit out by myself for admin pages because our UX dept doesnt care about them

[digital fjord]

UX is quite difficult, yeah. It's not as simple as thinking about it really hard.

[peak halo]

I heard that Zip recruiter proactively seeks out applicants for positions that seem relevant to their qualifications, if that's what you're referring to.

[cyan valley]

not sure if this would be considered a "career" question. However, i'm starting on my degree, and I'd like a headstart on what I could do to learn is there any tutorial / resource you'd recommend?

[peak halo]

This is for a computer science degree, or what?

[cyan valley]

Computer science

[peak halo]

For the most part, I don't think there's any practical advantage of getting ahead of the curriculum. If I had to make exceptions, I would say that it might be worth getting a head start on learning C, or practicing implementing algorithms and data structures.

[cyan valley]

I appreciate the help. Actually now I think about it, I think might be a good idea. From what I understand, C kind of teaches you about memory management.

[peak halo]

C in itself doesn't teach you anything. And it doesn't hold your hand. But if you don't figure out memory management as you write C code, you're gonna have a bad time.

[cyan valley]

Any resources you recommend?

[hearty island]

damn my work won’t pay for my green belt cert until 2 weeks later my school starts before then 💀

[velvet fox]

I have a friend who’s been offered an SDE-1 role in the Value Added Services Team at Amazon. Having heard about how the WLB and pip-culture is heavily team-dependent, can anyone share any information w.r.to this team?

[crude moon]

I dont know about this team, but once you are in amazon, if you are good you wil have oppotunity to apply for different teams.. getting in is the first part. I would not, not take the role because of the team, unless getting loads of offers from great companies

[velvet fox]

The layoffs is killin mann

[crude moon]

Layoffs are everywhere at the moment unfortunately. If you are good, you dont have much to worry about. There is still huge demand for devs

[sleek egret]

yar

[gilded valley]

People in this channel have said they don't think layoffs are as big as the headlines have made out

[sleek egret]

what layoffs?

[gilded valley]

tech layoffs - iirc @summer roost said something along very roughly along the lines of layoffs aren't actually that big of a factor for the software job market at the moment

this is what he actually said - so more nuanced than that

[orchid violet]

is it easy to get a job in Artificial Intelligence fresh out of college?

[gilded valley]

no

[hearty island]

absolutely not

[delicate bane]

i think its industry dependent yeah

[gilded valley]

tech jobs are pretty industry agnostic

[delicate bane]

no the layoffs

[gilded valley]

ah yeah - definitely

[delicate bane]

most def

[gilded valley]

but 1% of software devs being laid off affects those who weren't

[delicate bane]

its def eye-catching for the headlines lol

[sleek egret]

sucks to be in that 1% though

as far as I can tell, it's not really layoffs and more hiring "freezes"

[lone thicket]

please explain why bgrp is written like that in this code

[gilded valley]

@lone thicket wrong channel

[lone thicket]

which channel to go

[orchid violet]

is it easy to get a job as a data scientist fresh outta college

[delicate bane]

try #databases

[delicate bane]

no

[orchid violet]

why

i thought its easy esp coz of startups

[near ocean]

What about startups
Theres startups that are shit to work for and pay nothing and startups that are super competitive and hard to get into

[sleek egret]

what makes you think it's easier to get a job at a startup?

[dreamy shadow]

Boss asking me about what a stream lined data intake should look like.

Me with zero experience in data engineering/data bases:

[dreamy shadow]

Data scientist is a senior role. In the sense that it requires both fundamental ds experience and domain knowledge.

[sleek egret]

I know all about domains!

🙂

[smoky quest]

data scientist is a role, not a level of seniority. As such there are senior data scientists as there are also junior data scientists

[buoyant seal]

You must be God 😃

[sleek egret]

maybe a small g god

and this g needs a haircut

[dreamy shadow]

I will always fight on Data scientist as an experienced role

https://www.reddit.com/r/datascience/comments/100ponn/comment/j2j2zlp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Some may disagree, but in my opinion data science itself really isn’t an entry/junior level role. Domain knowledge is very important and can take years to develop. Quite a few data scientists start their careers as data/reporting analysts or some other career that is tangentially related to data.
https://www.reddit.com/r/datascience/wiki/frequently-asked-questions/#wiki_what_is_a_data_scientist.3F
Specifically, BurtchWorks Data Science Salary Survey, May 2018 Pg 32. https://www.burtchworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Burtch-Works-Study_DS-2018.pdf
Although they may specialize in a specific area, data scientists
are equipped to work on every stage of the analytics life cycle which includes:

All require experience/domain knowledge.

Not to mention, look up Junior Data Scientist | Associate Data Scientist role requirements. Most will require 1-2+ years of analytics experience (Aka analyst)

[vapid jay]

wondering if this is a common or uncommon scenario at companies.. lets say hypothetically there was some cloud resource that someone created and setup and got running in production 1 or 2 years ago for a group's project, but only that one person has access to the passwords/keys and there is no group access to it

[smoky quest]

for personal testing, sure, all the time.
for production usage, probably not common

[balmy spade]

I'll add that this greatly depends on the company. Did the company do the right thing and invest in a common secret vault with the correct ownership levels? Uncommon for that situation to happen. Otherwise...

[white relic]

I am that person

A term worth knowing: the "bus factor" of a project is the number of people that have to be concurrently hit by a bus to doom the project

if the sudden loss of one key person can take down the project, you have a bus factor of 1

[true harness]

concurrent burgerses

[white relic]

unfortunately not uncommon even in larger teams

[sleek egret]

in reality things just slow down

no one is irreplaceable

[dreamy shadow]

Or the project on hand just get redone from scratch.

[hearty island]

i've hit a roadblock with the PMP, as it requires 36 months of project experience

i only have 6 🙂

this is the curse of having such a certificate intensive field

[sleek egret]

I've managed people for 20 years and never got a PMP cert. no one has ever asked about it either.

[hearty island]

2.5 years

[low field]

Hello, I asked some questions yesterday about getting a job as a self taught developer. Would it be okay if I asked a few more questions?

[balmy spade]

questions are, generally, encouraged.

[peak halo]

Yep! But don't wait for permission. Or for a commitment.

[low field]

So yesterday I was recommended to follow this site for a roadmap: https://roadmap.sh/backend/

I originally said I wanted to do front end, but after hearing how backend is more in demand, I think I'm going to do backend instead (as thinking of it frontend has caused me more headaches with my projects).

I'm currently learning PostgreSQL and it seems to be going good enough. However, I am curious about a few things.

• Where should I go to network for backend? I know Python conferences weren't ideal for frontend, but what about backend development?

• How far into the above chart should I complete before applying for jobs as a self-taught developer who has a college degree (non-STEM)? The link above has a specific section on this but it seems to state that I should apply for jobs well before I finish the chart:

"Learn the basics of some relational database e.g. PostgreSQL and learn how to run simple CRUD operations. Optionally, you can pick up and learn a web framework for the language of your choice as well. Learn how to build a simple RESTful API and implement simple Authentication/Authorization into it. While you are learning all the items mentioned above, don't forget to learn about Git and GitHub as well.

After following all the instructions above, you can start applying for the entry level backend developer jobs."

[balmy spade]

Networking and learning programming are two different skills. You want to network. Period. Getting connections, friends, acquaintances, and such will only support your life in general. Python conferences are just one of many places you could do this.

For programming/development/etc, I don't think there is a line drawn that says "I know this, now I can apply for jobs". Those that go to school use the degree as that line, but it is an arbitrary device. When you feel ready to sell yourself at the interview and have the connection to get the interview is the best time to take the interview.

[smoky quest]

Entry level jobs won't expect you to know everything on that roadmap, but you ought to be able to write some backend.
Given the lack of a cs related degree, interviewers will most likely expect some projects to demonstrate that you can do so

[low field]

Great posts all around.

[low field]

I'm curious where would you draw the line to start applying for a backend developer? Asking because you seem experienced and seasoned.

[balmy spade]

I have never applied to be a backend developer. I applied to be technology support coming out of 25 years of retail work. My views are slightly tinted because I am calm and empowered at interviews. I have done a lot of them.

I had a strength, customer service. I took that strength, made connections with the local education board, and found places hiring for technology. I went to those places through those contacts and said "let me just flood you with all the ways I will bring good to your company".

When I stepped up to an application engineer and, later, a software engineer it wasn't a question to me of "do I know enough?" I knew I didn't but I also knew nothing would stop me from learning, fast, and that passion showed to the leadership I interviewed with.

But that latter part... that's the 25 years of working experience. Nobody can tell me I can't. It doesn't work. I grew out of that or had it bled out of my system. I doubt myself, but I don't know how not to figure it out.

Long winded way of saying I don't know how to advise what to look for anymore. However, if you wait for it to be the perfect/right time, you'll miss it.

[low field]

Thank you.

[delicate bane]

this looks interesting

https://www.resumeworded.com/

[smoky quest]

nice way to build a dataset of resumes

[delicate bane]

fine tuning their model on resume data lmao

reminds me of LayoutLM for contracts

[summer dirge]

Hello guys

I would b very happy is someone could help me with python:)

I'm a beginner programmer n ik basics of python

[high coral]

what would you like to learn?

[pine sleet]

Are you looking for a resume review or career advice?

[summer dirge]

Well I make mistakes whenever I try to run a program, so i wonder if someone could help me whenever I got doubts 🥲

[summer dirge]

Nah, I'm learning Python language

[near remnant]

is creating pet projects with Django (DRF) + React or Vue.js + AWS lambda a good idea at all?

not sure if Django is a good idea for career advancement

[spark cobalt]

Serverless Vue app

If you're trying to become a frontend developer just do React.

[near remnant]

i don't want to become a frontend dev, I just don't know what to do honestly

i will have so many interviews but i feel like i don't know enough 💀

[spark cobalt]

Well you know you don't wanna do frontend so that eliminates like, both of those choices.

You're gonna spend like more than 10x longer on React than in DRF

[near remnant]

What would you do career wise if you've been using Python for long and have Python backend experience? As I've been laid off, I'm trying to decide which career route to take.

[spark cobalt]

Why not try learning some new languages.

[mellow gulch]

where can i ask my doubts?

[white relic]

Well, do you like the kind of work you were doing before?
"backend" is pretty nondescript, it could mean almost anything

[near remnant]

I will start working as a "freelancer", sort of as an "external help" for a Python project at a CS department at a university. My plan is to work on some projects on the side or start learning a new lang.

[spark cobalt]

Ok

[near remnant]

Is this you? @spark cobalt

😆

[spark cobalt]

That's some pretty good shadow boxing

[sacred sun]

I need career advice.. 😞

[near remnant]

If there is no deadline mentioned on a take home assignment, is it okay to call the HR person to ask about it?

[white relic]

Can you get it done in a week?

If so, I would just do it.

[near remnant]

Yeah, I just have to leave for the weekend and I don't want to risk it.

[white relic]

the main risk is that if you drag your feet through the hiring process, you'll get scooped by some other candidate.

If they didn't give you a deadline, they almost certainly don't care when you actually get around to doing it, as long as the position is still open. Your application is just on hold until you do.

[hearty island]

i have an idea for my PMP… it’s to stick w the company i currently have all the way till may
so that’s another 4 months

and then at the other company i’ll have an internship from may to august which is another 3 months

so then i’ll have 23 months left

23/12 = 1.9 years, and spend the remaining time at the current company, get my PMP, and then stay as their PM for a year or two until i get a better offer

[quick juniper]

hey

name = "prenom1.nom1 et prenom2.nom2"
parts = name.split(".")
phrase = parts[0] + " et " + parts[2]
print(phrase)

[peak halo]

@quick juniper this is not a help channel; see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[quick juniper]

okay thanj you

[frank dagger]

Hello. Is it a good idea to reply to my boss when he asks for work updates at 12am? The work has about medium urgency and the deadline is technically tomorrow.

[true harness]

i would just go to sleep, unless you're on call

[near ocean]

Is it a habit of theirs to message you after hours? Are you on call?

[frank dagger]

nope i'm not on call at all. i work normal hours

[true harness]

just go to sleep then lol

[frank dagger]

seems like it

[near ocean]

Go to sleep

Or do other things, im not your dad or anything

[white relic]

Plenty of people work after hours. Sending an email at midnight does not mean they expect an answer immediately.

[frank dagger]

Well I'd usually go to sleep, but my boss just wrote in our team's group chat on another platform about an opportunity to join a reputable course; wherein I asked if I could join and he's not responded.

[white relic]

I get the sense there could be a lot of context to this that we're missing.

[near ocean]

Whats the job? If youre in one of these tryhard finance/quant jobs you might wanna respond to your boss, but if not, i would not either
What kind of work update would he even want that late

[hearty island]

dry cleaning? /s

[frank dagger]

Well here's a continuation to what I wrote. He shortlisted almost the whole team except for me and another dude who are both juniors. Though one of the guy he shortlisted is a junior too. It's a leadership course, but it's by a reputable company that everyone knows I'm incredibly interested in.

I asked if I could join, he didnt respond. But approx. 20 mins later he wrote in our work chat platform asking for an update from my project. Now I'm just wondering if it's a good idea to respond to that 12am question. I've long finished the project tbh, and am working on sth extra.

[near ocean]

That sounds obnoxious and I would shut down my laptop/work phone and do other thins or go to bed
But you probably know best

[frank dagger]

Sounds about right. But I really do want to join the course. Not sure if me replying asap would get me a chance at getting into the course. Also, apologies for the slow replies, slowmode is a biatch.

[white relic]

honestly, if I'm working at midnight and somebody asks for a project update, I'm just going to give them a project update. Unless I was about to go to bed anyway.

[near ocean]

I dont think further messages would get you in the course and they might even get you in trouble for not responding to other work stuff

[white relic]

But the thing about that is, I very rarely work at midnight to begin with.

[frank dagger]

I see. I've once been told that if I reply after hours once, people will often bother me after working hours which I definitely don't want to happen. What are all of your takes on this?

[spark cobalt]

If you want to work after hours, but don't wanna be continuously bothered. Don't respond to all of their after hour messages. Just respond to the important ones.

They'll stop sending unimportant stuff.

[near ocean]

I havent been in that position before so I'm not sure
I think I would probably respond but if it turned regular i would stop responding

[spark cobalt]

Or, you end up not responding, so

[frank dagger]

This makes a lot of sense. Basically in a sense have "natural selection" take its course? Haha. Alright, I'll respond. Thank you to all of your input.

[white relic]

When I'm working, I'm working. I know my coworkers and managers occasionally put in late nights and I have been known to as well. I see no harm in sending emails and other asynchronous communication at any time of day. So I wouldn't take receiving a late night email as a request to work after hours.

[spark cobalt]

My company as a whole is very up to speed with Slack. If they're online on Slack, I talk to them if it's after hours, weekend or anything. Otherwise, I don't bother.

My company as well, lots of people work on weekends, holidays, even on the PTO days they requested off.

[white relic]

if somebody notices that I sent a late night message and then starts to expect that I will be available at midnight as a matter of routine, well, they'll probably quickly learn their mistake because that simply isn't how I normally work

it's not really a problem unless someone starts to get pissy about your availability

I am on a team with folks 6 time zones away, so there is some deviation from "normal" office hours anyway

[stable elbow]

Welp three different interviews done with a fourth next week

The waiting game is a tad nerve-wracking. Especially since I really like two of the positions so far

[dreamy shadow]

Jesus. Trying to get access back to our data lake is like playing ping pong.

I get X,Y errors
let me check, try now?
same errors
let me check, try now?
Repeat prior 2 lines.

[pine sleet]

Sounds similar to what goes down in our help channels

[dreamy shadow]

Idk, prior times was simple. The errors got resolved quickly. This time it's taken a week from approval to still trying to resolve this error.

And of course it's the week I actually need access to the data...

Also. This guy who's assisting literally says checking, and then goes their teams icon goes idle...

[spark cobalt]

[sleek egret]

yar

[dreamy shadow]

Going to their manager if they don't respond in the next hour. I've been at this since yesterday. No reason for this to take 2 full days.

They just asked for the query.. I gave the query 10 messages ago. AAAAAAAAA

[sleek egret]

there are many reasons it could take 2 full weeks

why don't you just ask for access?

this sounds like the time my company had a signaling issue with the telco for a set of leased line. we went back and forth for weeks. finally, we managed to get the telco techs on the phone and actually hand hold them through running diagnostics on their equipment in real-time. we solved the problem in a few hours.

[frail condor]

I am developing an insurance website that includes user authentication with email and phone number verification. Users can submit their credentials for new insurance and upon submission, an email notification will be sent to the admin. The admin can then contact the user via phone call for further verification. Once the insurance request has been verified by the admin, it will be reflected in the user's view and the user can view the start and expiration date of the insurance. Additionally, users have the option to request for cancellation of their insurance. Lastly, I have created an additional page that introduces myself as the developer of the website and provides an opportunity for interested individuals to contact me for website development services for their business or personal needs.

[frail condor]

I am curious to know if that insurance website project that I am currently working on, utilizing HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and Django, would be a suitable project to showcase my skills and potentially secure a basic entry-level job as a backend developer.

[near remnant]

Is it common for hiring managers to forget sending out the test assignment? I might have to call her tomorrow morning...

[pine sleet]

It could be. What are you using for your front end?

[dreamy shadow]

I already asked, got approval from governance and now it's just the granting that's running into issues. Normally granting is within the day after submitting a ticket with approval. (Approval takes days because answering an email is hard. Jk, just busy people who need to be pinged to respond)

I just think this guy granting access doesn't know how to grant access correctly. Taking the error message given and understanding the root issue.

My issue is now half solved...ODBC access still not working. And the guy helping literally said not my problem.

[frail condor]

For front-end I'm not using any framework, purely in HTML CSS and JavaScript

[pine sleet]

You'll probably want to pick up a framework then

Rarely in the industry will a company use just plain HTML CSS and JS
I'd also look into CSS frameworks or CSS-in-JS libraries

[frail condor]

But I am seeking a job as a back-end developer.

[gilded valley]

Yes, that would be fine. SPA Frameworks are overrated and often only used because of cargo culting

[pine sleet]

It can never hurt

[sleek egret]

I wouldn

[sleek egret]

I wouldn't say it's common. but it certainly would not surprise me if someone forgot.

[sleek egret]

Escalate to his manager. Be polite and phrase the question as a "who should I be asking?" request. As his manager if it really is "not his problem" because you thought it was his problem. And if it's not his problem, who's problem is it.

[sleek egret]

To start, what you wrote is great and will probably be a great help in getting a job. But, it has almost nothing to do with the "back end" of an insurance company's systems. Even its purported use cases (signing up, cancellation) is part of the "front office" of an insurance company

[near remnant]

Im working on a data visualization django rf + chart.js project. Planning to deploy it to AWS lambda. ☠️ Hopefully it will turn out good.

[sleek egret]

So I'd suggest rephrasing the description a bit to match insurance industry lingo

dos: I hope it turns out well for you too!

[near remnant]

Thanks, Im currently interviewing for a lot of positions but I feel like I should take a month off and focus on projects and prepare for interviews (since I get them). I just got laid off last week.

[sleek egret]

I'm laying myself off next month!

[dreamy shadow]

I already asked another manager, not sure if it's his manager. I normally don't mention names, I'm not petty enough to do so. I just say "I've been told X". Generally speaking, I just assume I'm incorrect in my base assumptions.
The one time I mentioned names and brought up chat log to my manager was when the dude was LITERALLY dodging my calls and chat. Like, saw I was connecting to the chat, and left right after. (Super unprofessional) Hung up on me too. (That time I was trying to get elevated windows access.)

[sleek egret]

gonna take a few months break. then try something else.

[dreamy shadow]

But that time, I also phrased it like: "Idk what's going on, but here's what I know"

[sleek egret]

oh, you should always mention names 🙂 just couch your complaint as a communications error or ignorance of lines of responsibility on your part

i.e. be passive aggressive. the manager you complain to will usually be able to read between the lines

[sleek egret]

"Idk what's going on" is fine. might be helpful to add "what time would he have a few minutes free to coordinate on this?"

[dreamy shadow]

Only passive aggressive if pushed. Like some mofo manager who keeps asking if I can come to team lunch and into the office after saying I still have a cough.
THAT time, I literally said. "I can share the flu if you are that keen."

[sleek egret]

lol

[dreamy shadow]

Should have seen the backpedal after I said that lol.

[sleek egret]

a training exercise in politics is to try to get someone fired. turns out, it's pretty easy.

[dreamy shadow]

Just because I'm not coughing my lungs out every 2 seconds on camera doesn't mean I don't have a cough.

[sleek egret]

no cough == no flu, didn't you know?

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, tell my lungs that. They missed the memo.

[delicate bane]

bro you are smarter than me. not mentioning names. anyway, lots of politics at my company lately. not fun.

me: new job when

[dreamy shadow]

Something something never attribute malice that can be explained by incompetency. or w/e that razor is.

Also, drama is

Except for that one mofo tech support guy, I SAW him see my name, typing symbol THEN disconnected the chat without saying anything.

[slim barn]

I'm currently a student in my first year, but i've been learning python for around 5 to 6 years. Currently I don't really have any big projects to show for it. How should I go about getting a first job in the field?

[near ocean]

Try and get as many internships as you can, at least one by the time you graduate
Keep your grades up, you can do personal projects in your free time but the degree is the most important thing

[slim barn]

How should I go about getting an internship? I'm mostly taking classes to deepen my knowledge about computer science topics, since it's also what I do in my free time anyways.

[dreamy shadow]

We got a (I hope it's company wide) email that "a good amount" of repos have secrets in them. (Had to google that one, apparently that means credentials and keys). Some people bout to get mandatory training.

[pine sleet]

Universities will usually have a bunch of oppurtunities

[dreamy shadow]

Check your university's career center.

[pine sleet]

They're great because they're understanding that you all are still students so they have a more flexible schedule that can work around your classes

[slim barn]

I didn't know that wad a thing honestly

Aside from school routes, do you have an advice for at least finding opportunities?

[dreamy shadow]

Most large university should have one. I think even my local community college has one. "

Other than that, at year 1-2, basically good grades and projects as mentioned above will help you later on. Not many companies hire 1/2 years as they don't know much yet. (Also, market is down so internships first to )

[near ocean]

Fix up your cv early on and just be patient with applying

[slim barn]

cv?

[near ocean]

Curriculum vitae, résumé

[open ivy]

Networking isn't just about "getting a job", it has a broader scope. Many of us work on challenging Python projects and could benefit from each-others feedback. Doing so is networking since we are building connections, even if the initial focus is not on getting a job itself. But I don't know how to get this process started.

[delicate bane]

bro i feel you man. eff that guy.

[buoyant seal]

https://www.protocol.com/workplace/fake-resume-tech-job-interviews
All you need is more buzzwords to your resume 🙂 And u will be spammed with connections

Even achievements like
*Spread Herpes STD to 60% of intern team* catches eye of recruiters to spam you with offers 🙂

or Team coffee maker - ensured team of 6 was fully caffeinated with Antarctican coffee beans ground to 14 nm particles impressive, isn't it

[pine sleet]

Experienced software engineer in adult entertainment industries

[stark barn]

hi everyone, i started to learn python one year ago, what job can i take to improve my skills or earn some money? im student, cant working full-time

[spark cobalt]

Some internship, assuming you're in college.

[wild pilot]

Oh I have same problem.
I can’t help you with job, but have found interesting thing recently. I found running Testnet where people with knowledges of Python can participate. By creating your own solutions and participating in the Testnet, you will have the opportunity to demonstrate your skills and will be able to earn income when they launch the Mainnet.
It's my first time trying it, but I think it's interesting. There you can prove yourself

[spark cobalt]

If you're in high school, you'd learn more by just pursuing a project that's representative of what a company would use.

[stark barn]

oh, sounds interesting, can i get a link?

[spark cobalt]

Isn't Testnet some crypto thing?

[wild pilot]

https://docs.superprotocol.com/testnet/

[wild pilot]

It’s more like a decentralised cloud

[stark barn]

oh yes, i trynna one with my groupmates now

[spark cobalt]

Interesting.

[sharp matrix]

Hiii

[lone tulip]

hi guys! i'm new to discord and python programming. I'm stuck in tutorial hell feeling like i would never become a pro at python plus i'm in uni and i have exams coming up in two weeks. I am literally screaming in frustration("aaarggh!!!)

[sharp matrix]

Help in pandas

[white relic]

This channel is for career discussion; see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[hasty harness]

Don't understand the layoffs.
Are they happening cause companies hired extra employees or because economy is tight

[gilded valley]

Both. Facebook, Amazon, msft, all grew their headcount by a ton over the COVID period, but they're cutting now because of economic concerns

[real oyster]

because shareholders expect a certain number of profit each year, and the overhiring for the last couple years means they're laying off staff to keep the profit numbers high for shareholders

[hasty harness]

Google axing 12,000 jobs, as tech industry layoffs widen

[hot portal]

hello guys, what should I know to get a job? jr level, and what would be my salary? I wanna know how far I am to get my first job and what should be my focus on studying right now

[white relic]

what is your level of education?

[hot portal]

I have a degree in civil engineering looking to change my career, I'm studying python a couple months now and wondering when would be the best time to get a job and what is an entry level salary these days

[near ocean]

Which country/area are you looking for a job in

[hot portal]

I'm from Brazil, but I'm ok to work for companies in Europe or North America

[near ocean]

Do you have visas to either of those areas?

[hot portal]

working visa I don't have yet, but I'm pretty sure I can get one when needed. Or I could start working from home, depending on the company policies

[analog sun]

!cban 1050590743036690503 This is not the server you are looking for.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @glossy rampart permanently.

[rich kelp]

guys i have a question ,as technologies are constantly improving ,like i am getting damm confused to choose weather to go for frontend ,backend, android dev, because there are many people say some technologies might end soon ,so on what basis do i need to apply for the job

[white relic]

salary expectations are pretty different between Europe and NA

[hot portal]

what's the salary expectation in NA? Is it common to companies there to have employees working from others countries?

[near ocean]

I dont think thats common in any country for tax purposes among other things

[analog sun]

Also Visa requirements. If the company does Visa sponsorship then you would work in the US on a work Visa

[hot portal]

That's what I heard, thank you. Actually that is not a problem right now, I'm not ready to get a job I guess, I just want to know what salary I should expect in my first job just to manage my expectations

[white relic]

It really depends on what kind of job. Lots of professionals use Python in some capacity. The industry and location matter too. But without a relevant education, I'll just be honest, you will not be competitive for the more highly paid jobs and you won't be a candidate for visa sponsorship in the US either.

[delicate bane]

deel looks interesting

[white relic]

For most working professionals, it is probably easier to get into software development by leveraging their experience in another field. There are many engineers who program - simulations, data management, that kind of thing

[hearty island]

why’d i think this was a misspelling of dell

[hot portal]

what do you mean with relevant education?

[white relic]

A degree in computer science, software engineering, data science, cybersecurity, etc.

[true harness]

i've heard a masters is even more beneficial for immigration things

[white relic]

if you're hoping to get a visa sponsored yeah

[hot portal]

even for entry level jobs I would need a degree? I know it would be better if I had one, but I thought I could get a job without it

[near ocean]

You cant get a job in a foreign country with no degree, that would be insanity

[hot portal]

Really? Why's that?

[gritty rivet]

Even with a degree, no company will sponsor someone for a work visa with little or no experience

[gritty rivet]

Nobody can predict the future, we all have to keep learning new technologies. Focus on leveraging whatever knowledge and experience will get you a job right now

[rustic cosmos]

Hello thé World

[near ocean]

Because they take on huge risk to get someone from another country with no qualifications
First of they have to prove that they tried to recruit someone from the country they are in first before resorting to international applicants
How are you supposed to prove that someone with no degree or experience is better than the thousands/millions of software devs in the country already?

[peak torrent]

Good day guys

how do you approach a internship when they required a minimum of GPA ?

Wait to get a direct recommendatio from someone inside of the company?

[white relic]

Preferred Requirements
ignore it, apply anyway.

If you can get somebody in the company to recommend you to the right people, that will still help a lot

[peak torrent]

I'm planning to apply 2024 summer, but I want to get familiar what are they looking for. I'm planning to attend to networking events and local college fairs to get in touch with recruiters personally. I have a pretty solid base in personal projects, but my gpa is shit ngl

[peak torrent]

I guess this should be my strategy.

[white relic]

There's no law against applying to jobs you aren't technically qualified for. Worst case is you waste a bit of time. Having a poor GPA is going to hurt you, no question, but if you are otherwise a great candidate they may overlook the usual requirement.

Also try to get your GPA up between now and then

[peak torrent]

My gpa is 2.80

My first year of college. I work full time and to be honest. Some courses I felt are a waste of time. I know is important, but I cant study 10 hrs for humanities topics. I will need to replant my strategy. I don’t want to get in my third year and regretting in having a poor gpa, but and the same time I love and enjoy doing projects and I prefer spending my time doing that.

Idk I guess I need to talk with someone in my school to get on track and not only focus on programming.

[hearty island]

i’m getting another boss next week

[rich kelp]

thank you for taking your time and replying to me and giving valuable input .

[sleek egret]

yar

[hearty island]

hopefully this boss isn’t like my last one and doesn’t drive me batshit crazy giving me nothing to do

[dreamy shadow]

FINALLY got my access back to our data lake. Only took my ENTIRE week, multiple people on a call. In the end, their solution? "Try changing your password." (Some reason this worked.) Can't wait to do this whole monkey dance again in Q2.

There goes my weekend too, need to catch up on work.

[sleek egret]

if your boss at every job you've had drives you batshit crazy, think about what was constant across all the jobs...

[sleek egret]

weekends are for catching up on sleep and fun, not work!

[spark cobalt]

To win the game you must follow the rules of the game

[sleek egret]

I prefer to change the rules of the game to favor me

[spark cobalt]

never knew

[sleek egret]

that's because you're not changing the rules!

[spark cobalt]

😔

[sleek egret]

don't be blue. you can do it too!

[hearty island]

no it’s the same job

[peak torrent]

RT

[native narwhal]

So in all fairness when a experienced senior software developer utilizes ChatGPT his productivity is going to skyrocket which means less people are needed to fill roles, am I wrong to think this?

[sleek egret]

yes because the actual coding is a rather small % of time spent

[near ocean]

Why would a senior dev have tasks that could be solved using gpt

[sleek egret]

tools that use gpt to write tests, documentation, commit messages, etc are starting to come out

such tools will be very helpful for those who can confirm when gpt is correct or not.

[near ocean]

There already are tools that do all those things without using untested chatbots

[sleek egret]

ok

[late creek]

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. You need some knowledge of the subject/question you are asking GPT especially if its programming related

[native narwhal]

In several hours a senior swe tasked ChatGPT to write multiple pieces of code that would take medior/junior coders to do a full month
then he/she packed everything together and implemented the new feature in the same day

The same process would have taken a team of 5-7 people 10 days

[sleek egret]

all that said, once you're fluent in the language/system/environment, you spend most of your time thinking about what exactly you want to write. the writing of the code itself is rather trivial. to make a comparison, it's like saying the main work of a novel's author is typing up the manuscript.

[near ocean]

I think youre overestimating the chat bot's ability to write correct code

[sleek egret]

obviously, a novel's author spends most of his time thinking about the themes, plots, characters, interactions, settings, etc.

[late creek]

agreed

[sleek egret]

it'll be the "grunt work" programmers (often outsourced) who will be hit hardest by gpt. honestly, I don't think programmers will be hardest hit by it. people like paralegals who currently write most common legal docs will be hit even harder.

[true harness]

human capital

[sleek egret]

I know a guy who's daughter is working on a system using gpt that will output (common) legal agreements. she says the preliminary is already better than most paralegals most of the time.

[near ocean]

I cant believe people are building gpt based tools for real things, its a goddamn chatbot

[sleek egret]

even if she's exaggerating a bit, it sounds like her firm is hopeful

[near ocean]

Most of the shit people use gpt for could be solved with emmet anyway

[sleek egret]

no offense, but if you think that then you don't understand what openai does.

[true harness]

I wonder how useful these will be though. commit messages often have context outside of what you changed

[marble sand]

it will be a lot easier for AI to describe what was changed than /why/ it was changed

[sleek egret]

you are correct. and I think for things like commit messages, gpt will be mostly used simply to summarize the diffs as bullet points for the programmer to fill in. as you say, it won't know the context.

but even so, that's better than the current state where you have to do it manually. so many people just don't

[marble sand]

well I presently have no idea who send the ransom note to to get money in exchange for my services, so the landscape being turned upside down by incrementally stronger AI has no impact on my career

[gilded valley]

It's clear that LLMs will provide utility to programmers and increase efficiency, but the same was true for many things - IDEs, higher level programming languages, saas solutions to standard problems

[sleek egret]

it's also clear that many will reject them and refuse to use them just as many refused to use the other tools 🙂

[graceful mason]

Writing commit messages is literally a programmers responsibility. There's no genuine situation when that should be done for you

[gilded valley]

The same was true of people writing Java in Vim rather than <early Java IDE> - but eventually they became few and far between

[sleek egret]

see, you're just arguing that it's not perfect. I for one would love it if a tool could summarize the diffs into bullet points so I can fill them in. if you don't want that, that's up to you.

[gilded valley]

Of course there is - if the tool can accurately define what was changed and why, then there's no reason not to use that commit message

[sleek egret]

fill in the "why's" that is

[true harness]

you could say that about a lot of tools that didn't use to exist though

IDEs, even compilers

[leaden jasper]

It's a programmer's responsibility to have a commit message, sure. How that gets accomplished can be up to the programmer though. If the quality isn't sacrificed and the programmer can still validate it/edit it/whatever then it should be fine.

[marble sand]

heck, even publicly available modules,

[sleek egret]

compilers are for lazy slugs who can't be bothered to learn which bits of which hex instructions refer to which registers!

[gilded valley]

The question is whether AI based tooling will take us to a point where programmers become efficient enough that the overall demand for programmers goes down - no previous tool has done that, but it seems reasonable to argue that at some point we will reach that point

If anything, every single previous step has increased the demand for programmers - because the extra business value they could generate pushed more projects into the realms of financial feasibility

[sleek egret]

I suspect that the demand for the bottom 1/3 of programmers -- those who struggle with basic syntax and simple concepts -- may decline.

maybe

[gilded valley]

They'll just become project managers

[marble sand]

it is not obvious to me that all technology increases the total demand for human labor, we know that technological improvements have, for example, reduced the total demand for horse labor

[gilded valley]

Now that I don't have any pesky programming distracting me I can get down to the really valuable stuff - juggling Jira tickets

[sleek egret]

This situation may be analogous to the introduction of mechanical adding machines around 1900. previous to it, companies employed large numbers of clerks to simply sum up financial records (receipts and what not). most of those people lost their jobs to the machines. however, the ability to keep much more and more accurate records created the need for more accountants and financial analysists to use that data.

[hearty island]

hi there pm here

except i’m not a software pm

[sleek egret]

I have a buddy who works in gov contracting... he's a manager at a subcontractor that manages other subcontractors for the prime contractor. so, he's a pm that manages pms that manages pms for other pms

seriously. and he hates his life. lol

[hearty island]

i’m a healthcare pm that doesn’t understand healthcare 🤠

[sleek egret]

so exactly in line with the rest of the healthcare industry! 😵‍💫

[brittle thorn]

The skull is so appropriate lmao

[hearty island]

i’ve tried to get my company to teach me how the healthcare industry so many times and they’re like just google it, the books on it are like thousands of pages

[true harness]

well did you?

[sleek egret]

Maybe it's a test to see if you're a "self starter" 🙂

[hearty island]

maybe

but the company i work for isn’t a healthcare or health insurance company, it’s a third party administrator, which adds like a whole new degree of complexity that i can’t understand

[marble sand]

have you run into BDG's intro on health insurance terms? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wpHszfnJns&t=1s

[dreamy shadow]

Just got sent a model file that is named X_Model.csv

[hearty island]

never, this is actually really helpful

[marble sand]

I am somewhat demoralized/confused that I am good at helping people, but can't get any interviews for jobs

[sleek egret]

ask chatgpt to fix your resume for you

[marble sand]

great, black boxes talking to black boxes

human agency is a myth

[sleek egret]

indeed

[dreamy shadow]

Feels like I angered some work god. Wtf is all tasks being asked of me this week?

[marble sand]

need a subcontractor?

[sleek egret]

the week is over

[dreamy shadow]

Dumb question, but what is "% to total?" defined as?
E.g. avg cost per row for flag (yes/no) % to total

[near remnant]

I will have 6 interviews next week. I had 6 this week. Wtf.. 🤣 Too much, i can't handle this stress.

I can't wait for Monday, a company will send the take home assignment on Monday for an ML position. I'm curious.

[delicate bane]

bro same here. the business is trying to do too many things and everything feels like its imploding atm.

[near remnant]

Be happy you, you have a job and you are not on the laid off list.

[delicate bane]

they probs meant '% of total'

[dreamy shadow]

What I thought, until I googled and found this page

[delicate bane]

thats weird. companies do this?

from a job listing

[dreamy shadow]

Companies that

[marble sand]

:cranky glares: I've yet to get an interview in these past 4 months

[near remnant]

I only have 6 months of experience and one project. Nothing special. But still get many interviews.

[marble sand]

I have a PhD in physics and no corporate experience in the last 7 years, my conclusion is that I have a 7 year gap in my resume

[near remnant]

Well, 7 years is freaking long. U didn't do anything for 7 years?

[marble sand]

just get a phd in physics, so yeah, nothing important

[near remnant]

Then how is it a gap?

[marble sand]

it's not anything anybody cares about

[near remnant]

PhD in Physics is really good bro

[marble sand]

evidence indicates it's like going on tour in the andes for 7 years

[glad vector]

Ive passed highschool

I know some php python html css what can I do now to get paid like 50$/hour

[near remnant]

Honestly, even tho I get so many interviews, I still need to pass them. Having 6 interviews a week makes me freaking nervous and stressed out all times.

[marble sand]

see, same diff

[marble sand]

I yearn for battle, being ignored is making me depressed

[glad vector]

I spend a lot of time programming i can create cool hashes which are fancy af but i got no permanent job ig

[dreamy shadow]

If your not getting calls, you need to fix your resume.

[marble sand]

hooray, random walks through resume space, it's only got so many configurations (looks at note card) wow that's a lot of zeros

[glad vector]

I want to make a good pay like 10000$+/ month

I can do anything for that and working hard and eventually keeping the ends clean in my job

[white relic]

if you're applying to companies that hire physics PhDs, the time you took to get your physics PhD isn't a gap

if you're applying to frontend dev jobs, or w/e, sure, it's basically irrelevant

[marble sand]

I'm struggling to find anybody that cares about physics, mostly including it as a term get's physician or medical physics. I know more than the general populace about radiation, but I have no projects involving it

[white relic]

what about your PhD thesis?

[marble sand]

what kind of problems do you get paid to solve using python?

[near remnant]

A friend of mine is a Data Scientist with Physics PhD

[white relic]

lab automation, data analysis/visualization, some simulation and light system administration
I work in a field dominated by PhDs, but I don't have one myself

[near remnant]

I was a Python Backend Developer until laid off. Now I will have DevOps, ML, frontend, data analytics, backend interviews...🤣 And Im sure I won't pass any of them.

[dreamy shadow]

Most DS have PhD not in a relevant field lol. My boss was PhD in psychology

[marble sand]

beyond "it's still python" should anyone put you high on their list of people to solve templating bugs in pelican?

[white relic]

I've interviewed a bunch of physics PhDs, both at this and my previous job. Time spent getting a PhD is not a gap.

[white relic]

no, that seems like an odd question

[near remnant]

If it takes 6 months to find a decent, relevant job then who cares. You were interviewing and / or working on projects or something else. If you were doing nothing for months / years then its a different story.

[marble sand]

different subjects in physics have as little in common as the two things I described. I'm a generalist, but I have no idea how to hold my self hostage in exchange for a paycheck. I just solve problems when I can, I write when I learn something that excites me and I want to share it. I'm bad at ransom letters

[true harness]

it could also be an issue with your resume

[true harness]

get a degree and internships, then a job

[dreamy shadow]

[marble sand]

it is obviously a mismatch between resume+rejections I'm applying to, but I get one bit of data from each experiment

[true harness]

wanna show your resume?

[marble sand]

grrr, inkscape is being frustrating

ok, for some reason the first time I loaded it none of the interface was working

i'm trying to anonymize it

[true harness]

looks pretty anonymous

[marble sand]

it's still pretty identifying

like, there's no way to have a meaningful CV and also not have immediately identify a person

[delicate bane]

hmm this looks more like an academic CV than a resume for industry tbh

[true harness]

ah. it's completely blank for me on mobile

[near remnant]

Send then to the guys in DM

[delicate bane]

like this is the type of CV you would use to apply for assistant professor positions or the like

[hearty island]

same

[marble sand]

it's a png and I think the alpha is set to 0, maybe your phone is in dark mode?

[delicate bane]

im on web so i used the 'open in browser' button

[true harness]

wait are you sending pngs 🤔

[hearty island]

AAAAA MY EYES

[delicate bane]

wait hear me out. what if the recruiter opens it, and cant read the resume

[near remnant]

Should I share the resume template I use? Anyone interested?

[marble sand]

no, I have an actual pdf that I edit in latex, I just open it in inkscape and blocked out of a few fields

[marble sand]

that's silly, humans don't read resumes

[delicate bane]

youre right

[true harness]

where are your projects? if you're looking for programming jobs, you have nothing that demonstrates programming skill

[delicate bane]

the other question is, what type of role are you aiming for? you usually have to optimize a resume towards the type of role you are going for

[marble sand]

exactly, 7 year gap on my cv

[hearty island]

fuck this reminds me, i have to tailor my resume to a project manager resume now

[delicate bane]

eh i wouldnt call it a gap

[near remnant]

I only have 6 months of experience which was basically 4, but looks 6 in resume. And only one project (currently working on a new one) and I get interviews. The guy has a Physics PhD, must be wrong with his resume.

[true harness]

huh? that's not relevant at all to the question

[true harness]

that's...why i asked

[marble sand]

papers where I wrote the majority of the software for don't count as projects, ergo, nothing of value was established

[near remnant]

Dont think that 6 months that significant lmao

[delicate bane]

a PhD proves youre able to sit down and solve really tough problems, especially a physics one. but you do need to prove that you have the ability to program if you are looking for programming roles.

[true harness]

you don't need projects specifically. you just need to show that you know how to code. if that's through papers, then that would work. the issue is that your publications entries don't show that

[near remnant]

Also, interview a lot. You will suck at most but you can never know. Its a number's game.

[delicate bane]

if this is the case, i would add bullet points to the publications where you did so.

[true harness]

huh? projects aren't necessary they just help

[marble sand]

it doesn't matter if an interview is worth 100 milli-job offers if each application is only worth 1 micro-interview

[near remnant]

I meant my backend work experience

[marble sand]

that would still be on the order of 10 million applications before one statistically expected job offer

[delicate bane]

i think you do need to rework your resume and you should get more replies back.

however, i would try to create separate ones if you are aiming for something like a DS job vs. a research physics job. you would emphasize different items in each one.

[near remnant]

Btw, a local university's CS department asked me to help for a local startup team, with their python web app because I have experience. Would it be valuable to put on a resume? It wouldn't be actual work, just weekly 5-10 hours, coding or just meeting and thinking about the design choices, etc.

[true harness]

also, i'm pretty sure resumes are preferred in the US

[delicate bane]

same. especially 1 page ones, optimized for readability

[marble sand]

I'm pretty sure application tracking system optimized files are preferred

[delicate bane]

if we're still talking about industry jobs

[true harness]

ok. clearly your CV isn't working though, so maybe it's time to change some things ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[marble sand]

yeah, I know it needs to change, I just have no confidence in my ability to change it in a way that helps.

[true harness]

||maybe follow suggestions, then||

[white relic]

who said code written for a paper isn't a project?

[hearty island]

i like jake’s template, but i followed this quick and easy youtube tutorial for a resume on google docs

[marble sand]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16480948

guessmyname

I have used and recommended this LaTeX template [1].Template that I have also seen being used by many professional software engineers both applying and currently working at some of the big corporations like Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon. It is clean, easy to read, easy to parse by most ATS (Application Tracking System) [2].[1] https://github....

Hacker News · Feb 28, 2018, 5:42 AM

[delicate bane]

hmm i might be able to send you something that would help for career changers into data-type roles. maybe seeing a few examples could help?

[marble sand]

I don't know, sure? don't put more than 30 seconds into it, I don't want anyone wasting time

[bleak kestrel]

whats the difference between a software developer and a software engineer?

[true harness]

i think it depends on location, but in the US, nothing

[bleak kestrel]

ahh alright cause ive been so confused

[sleek egret]

titles are only meaningful within a single company

and sometimes not even then

[buoyant seal]

@bleak kestrel sounds correct to me :).

what is Middle ranked software engineer for some company, for a lot of others can be Senior software engineer for example. And for another probably even Junior 😆

[sleek egret]

There are companies with 15 staff and 8 VP's

and other places where Manager means you run a division of 1000 people and $1bil

[dreamy shadow]

Our datalake is slowly driving me insane. Run Select * query, "Cannot find DB", run Select col on same db.table, works, run Select * again, works. ???

[dreamy shadow]

I don't even work in data engineering... I'm just trying to pull data...

My company's IT bullshittery alone is about to drive me job hunting.

1 week to get access, hive deciding to work = flip a coin, computer running 1000 different security programs in the background, etc...

[sleek egret]

every security program is a potential vulnerability

[gritty rivet]

What do you want them to do, prepare a powerpoint for you 😉 Maybe as a starting point I'd look at study materials for the CompTIA HIT exam like https://www.comptia.jp/pdf/healthcare_it_technician_objectives.pdf

[vapid jay]

I'm curious. What exactly would getting this certification do? Its fairly new afaik

[gritty rivet]

It's not in high demand by any means, but it's meant to demonstrate basic knowledge of the healthcare industry for people in technical roles. It's probably one of CompTIA's least useful certs to be honest

unless you just really want to work in healthcare IT I guess

[vapid jay]

People are hiring for IT jobs in the Health industry. But the pay sucks. Really entry level too

[gritty rivet]

Right, but I haven't seen many asking for that cert. A+/Net+/Sec+ are more worthwhile

definitely wasn't recommending anyone to get that cert, but if I were going to work in a healthcare setting I'd probably want to know a lot of that material as a starting point

[random sparrow]

I am seeking advice on whether a university education or a bootcamp program is more beneficial. After researching and watching various videos, I am unsure which option is the best fit for me. Can you provide your thoughts and experiences on this topic?

[true harness]

what's your situation? other education, age, location, etc

[robust island]

More beneficial to achieve what?

[random sparrow]

To learn and get a job

[random sparrow]

I'm 27, Jamaica

[robust island]

What type of job?

[vapid jay]

Neither would be very beneficial.

[robust island]

Hot take lol

[random sparrow]

Software engineer

[robust island]

I meant like doing what, like web dev, data scientist, etc.

[true harness]

i don't know much about jamaica. do you have other experience/education?

[vapid jay]

Cheap 20$ courses online provide better return on investment

[random sparrow]

Build applications

[vapid jay]

So you want to Java or C++?

[robust island]

Still pretty broad, full stack developer?

[true harness]

i don't think that's true

[vapid jay]

How so? I'm intrigued.

[random sparrow]

I am interested in exploring the possibility of completing an education through online classes or an online bootcamp program. This would be a convenient and flexible option for me. Can you provide any recommendations or information on reputable online education options?

[robust island]

I don't have any experience w/ this but I've generally heard it's the opposite

[random sparrow]

I hear Python is best to learn and easiest to understand

[true harness]

a degree gives you connections, support from the school, career services, plus a credential that most employers are looking for. a 20$ course doesn't

[random sparrow]

🤔 ok

[robust island]

I'm mostly looking forward to the internships and other opportunities that unis can offer

[vapid jay]

A degree isn't solidified as a key to a network. Support doesn't guarantee a job. Credentials are simply pieces of paper that state that you could probably hold a conversation on the topic.

[random sparrow]

I am deeply interested in learning how to code and program, and my ultimate goal is to secure a fulfilling and well-paying job in this field.

[robust island]

The piece of paper also shows you spent 4 years of your life in that field of study

[true harness]

of course. getting a degree does not mean you will have a good network. however, it is available if you put in effort to get it. the same with career support. it will help you get a job. and even if the degree was just a piece of paper, employers are looking for it

[summer roost]

Sure, none of those things guarantee a job, but each of them helps you get your foot in the door.

[vapid jay]

Studying a 'field' isn't the same as being in the field. Two separate entities.

[random sparrow]

Ok I see

[robust island]

It shows commitment at the very least, that you're serious about wanting to learn more

[summer roost]

Sure, but one is generally seen as a prerequisite for the other.

[random sparrow]

What types of career opportunities are available for those proficient in Python?

[vapid jay]

It really depends on the field.

[robust island]

Data scientists and backend developers use python a lot I believe

[vapid jay]

I can study and freelance as a Programmer long before attaining a degree.

[summer roost]

I thought the field we were talking about was software engineering - is it not?

[random sparrow]

Ok bro

[random sparrow]

How do you even land freelance jobs I never got any

[vapid jay]

It doesn't make sense, to me. That a pre-requisite, named a degree, would preclude the action of being able to program and engineering software?

[random sparrow]

Yes bro

[vapid jay]

The real question here is,
where do you see yourself as a SWE ?
Because there a lot of ways to end up at the same location.

[random sparrow]

Pursuing a stable career with a reputable company or government institution, while also taking on freelance projects as a means of supplementing my income and gaining additional experience.

[true harness]

surely your company would pay you enough to not need to freelance

[random sparrow]

Really? I don't know

[summer roost]

I didn't say that a degree was a prerequisite entering the field, I said that studying the field is a prerequisite to entering the field

[true harness]

in the US, and i assume EU also, software enginners typically earn enough to only need one job

[random sparrow]

I have some queries, such as if I were to teach myself programming and become proficient, would I be able to secure employment opportunities in the field?

[random sparrow]

Ok I see wow that's new

[vapid jay]

A degree would probably be your best bet then.

[true harness]

it's not likely, a degree is the safe bet

[random sparrow]

Ok thank you

[robust island]

From the perspective of a company, it's typically the safest bet to hire people who have degrees rather than people who are self-taught

[random sparrow]

Ok I understand

[random sparrow]

Ok even if you are really good at it

[vapid jay]

Anyone have suggestions for the degree? I hear Comp. Sci. is the usual route, yeah?

[true harness]

i think it depends on location also, but probably

[robust island]

I've heard that also, but there's also software engineering as well

[random sparrow]

Computer science my my it's a expensive degree

[robust island]

It can be hard to get to a point where you show the hiring manager what you know, or so I've heard. They'd need to sift through all the other applicants and select who to interview

[vapid jay]

You can also do EdX, to get a taste.

[vapid jay]

.. and thats if he gets through the job application filter...

[random sparrow]

Ok will check it

[white relic]

even if you are really good, and you can show an employer you are good enough to hire, you won't likely be hired at the same salary as a person with a degree, and that gap may follow you through your career.
Does depend on the field though.

[random sparrow]

Ok I understand

[vapid jay]

Also depends on your skills of negotiation.. You can have a degree, bad negotiation skills, with a bad salary

[white relic]

as a non-degreed person, you're also in a worse negotiating position.

[vapid jay]

Depends on how you negotiate.

[true harness]

how so?

[white relic]

People want to think they can overcome the lack of a degree by having enough hustle, but the fact is that if you had that much hustle, you could just get the degree in the first place, and then you'd have both

[vapid jay]

Touche. That I do agree. 😂

[white relic]

skipping a degree is a legitimate career choice, but you should do it with eyes open.

[vapid jay]

Its hard to 'how so' because its situational.

[random sparrow]

I am considering the possibility that obtaining a degree may be the best option for me. Additionally, I am curious to know if obtaining a degree in computer science from a non-US country, particularly a developing country, would still qualify me for job opportunities in the United States.

[true harness]

could you give an example? i don't see how negotiating skills could make up for a lack of degree

[vapid jay]

A degree is a degree.

[random sparrow]

Ok I see nice, thank you so much for the advice

Thank you I'm happy to hear this

[vapid jay]

Negotiation skills would mean you're already sitting at the table for employment.

Its difficult to provide an example on how to properly sell yourself for more money... Because there is no one size fits all.

[true harness]

like, if you don't have a degree, you don't have that leverage. how does negotiating skill make up for that

[vapid jay]

A degree isn't the penultimate leverage. You have levels of experience.

[true harness]

that's just moving the problem though. you have to get experience somehow

[white relic]

it's not like you can't have good negotiation skills and have a degree.
in the real world, you don't actually have to trade CHA for INT.

[vapid jay]

A degree isn't the only way to gain experience, is the point...

[true harness]

sure, but how do you get experience otherwise?

[white relic]

you just negotiate yourself some I guess

[summer roost]

it's not the only, just the easiest.

[vapid jay]

I think this may be the question, what is your definition of experience?

[true harness]

professional experience, working for a company/freelancing

[summer roost]

being paid to write software.

[vapid jay]

It is the easiest...

[vapid jay]

By freelancing...

[true harness]

you still run into the same problem. how do you attract customers without qualifications?

[vapid jay]

Prior work.

[summer roost]

but how do you get the prior work?

[vapid jay]

By doing it.

[summer roost]

you seem to be dodging (or misunderstanding) the question - how do you convince someone to hire you for your first job?

I've never heard of someone getting a job as a freelance developer based on their open source contributions...

[true harness]

idk, i would think most of your customers as a freelancer wouldn't care about open source

[summer roost]

it seems to me, intuitively, that someone qualified to evaluate the quality of your open source contributions is unlikely to be hiring entry level freelance devs

[robust island]

Easiest for anyone to do perhaps, but whether that would actually yield the desired results is debatable

[vapid jay]

You're asking how to negotiate a contract with your first customer?

[true harness]

no, we're not at the negotiating stage yet. how do you get someone to even consider you at all without qualifications

[summer roost]

people without qualifications and with little professional experience don't have an easy time convincing someone to hire them over someone more qualified, or over a teenager from a low cost of living country who can do the work for next to nothing. They can't compete on credentials, and they can't compete on cost, which makes it pretty tough to get hired.

[robust island]

Doesn't that still raise the issue of not standing out amongst the sea of developers with degrees though? What would make the client/company want to look into your skills/projects?

[vapid jay]

I never said it was easy. But my responses of making your own work doesn't seem to be a viable option 🤷‍♀️

[summer roost]

my impression is that, once you count the time spent vetting proposals and searching for clients, entry level freelancers wind up working for far, far below a western country's minimum wage. Like maybe a dollar an hour for the first year. I suppose if your goal is entirely to build a portfolio, that might be worthwhile, but I'd be pretty skeptical about it being as valuable to employers as a year of schooling would be.

it's definitely a possible path, but from everything I've heard it's a difficult and frustrating path with a high risk of failure.

[robust island]

So what did you have on your resume when you applied?

Interesting. How long ago was this? Would you say this could still happen in the current job market?

[true harness]

well, could is a very generous word

[vapid jay]

You might have to hold a class for this.. A lot of people don't know how to make a resume

[robust island]

So it's putting all your eggs in one basket, but also designing the basket to hold those eggs really well

[summer roost]

it is absolutely possible for someone without a degree or prior work experience to get hired based on the quality of their portfolio. But "possible" doesn't imply "easy". From what I've heard from people in this channel, people with degrees usually get call backs from maybe 10% or 20% of the jobs they apply to, on average, and people without degrees may get one company calling them back per 200 or 400 applications - so 0.5% or 0.25%.

if you're a strong programmer, getting the first job is the hard part. once you've got some professional experience, it's reasonably easy to trade on that to get more.

[vapid jay]

If life was easy, don't think it'll be as much fun....

[summer roost]

When it comes to career advice, "don't make things harder for yourself than necessary" seems unquestionably like good advice to me.

[vapid jay]

Perspective is in the eye of the beholder.
Difficult for one doesn't translate to difficult for all.
I will agree that 'not making things harder by thinking smarter' is unquestionably good advice.

[summer roost]

I'm not sure what you mean by "making things harder by thinking smarter"

[vapid jay]

lol typo

[cyan skiff]

which is why degrees are pointless if they're from no-namer universities

[true harness]

source?

[cyan skiff]

if you go to an elite institution, a degree doesn't just mean you can "hold a conversation about a topic", it means you have obtained a high standard of competence on a topic

[summer roost]

I've been involved in hiring, and I've never turned down anyone based on the university their degree came from.

[cyan skiff]

I didn't say to turn them down based on their degree, I'm saying that degree could be pretty pointless because the standard of education varies drastically :/

[true harness]

no it doesn't. that's why accreditation exists

what is different is networking opportunities

[cyan skiff]

dude there's a massive difference between universities even in the top 10 (globally)

[vapid jay]

A degree is simply a piece of paper. The 'popular' universities are popular for who you can network with. Not necessarily the degree itself. A degree is as valuable as you deem it to be.

[white relic]

"elite" schools really don't begin to matter until graduate studies. and then mostly at PhD level.

[cyan skiff]

like, academic standards vary so heavily I struggle to accept that they all have equal value

[true harness]

not in the curriculum

[cyan skiff]

not in the curriculum, the assessment

[vapid jay]

curriculum includes assessment though...

[summer roost]

which assessment?

[cyan skiff]

Like, everyone knows a Cambridge grad will destroy pretty much every other maths uni graduate

[vapid jay]

Uh oh.. Cambridge die hard fan alert ;P

[cyan skiff]

certain universities are known for having higher standards than others, are we just playing pretend here?

[white relic]

obviously you are

[cyan skiff]

No, berkley is an excellent institute as well, gotta love dem curves

[true harness]

it's true that certain universities are harder to get into. but it does not make the coursework, curriculum, or assessments more difficult on its own

[cyan skiff]

Okay well I find the assessments to be of extremely varying difficulties

The curriculum is usually very similar as you correctly stated

[summer roost]

universities are rated in large part based on the quality of their researchers - but researchers are often not particularly good teachers.

[cyan skiff]

I completely agree

Which is why undergrad from india or china is one of the best options (excellent teaching) xD

[summer roost]

emigration comes with its own entirely different set of challenges...

[cyan skiff]

That's true

But I am in complete agreement about the point of teaching (especially as undergrad) vs rating

Where I disagree is the standard of the assessment

[true harness]

you still haven't clarified what you mean by that

[vapid jay]

Sounds like pedagogy...

We went from recommending a choice for SWE student, to whether getting a job without a degree is feasible, to whether degrees are as good as the university, to emigration and pedagogy 🧐

[summer roost]

In any event: I'm not claiming that university rankings don't matter at all. I'm claiming that the way that they matter most isn't in the quality of the education that you receive, but in the brand recognition for the university's name on your resume and in the networking and research opportunities available to undergraduates. I wouldn't always hire someone who graduated from MIT over someone who graduated from University of Delaware or something - but I do agree that the MIT graduate likely had better opportunities available to them as an undergrad than the UD graduate did.

[cyan skiff]

So, by that I mean certain institutes examine syllabus either to more detail (Stanford/Berkley compilers classes), or with significantly more rigour and formality (Oxbridge)

[peak halo]

https://tenor.com/view/everything-is-connected-neil-degrasse-tyson-startalk-everything-is-related-everything-is-linked-gif-20161060

[cyan skiff]

Like, the joke about Oxford is that you don't need a computer 1st year, it is all pen and paper (which is great for developing that pure rigour, for the same reason calculators are not allowed in university level maths exams)

[delicate bane]

whether getting a job without a degree is feasible
this one is basically the default topic of this channel since its so commonly discussed here

[summer roost]

my best attempt at estimating this is that an MIT CS degree might be worth 50% more than an NYU CS degree, give or take. It's definitely better, and if you have both options available to you, MIT is almost certainly the better choice. But it''s not so much better that the situation is hopeless if you don't make it into a top 10 or top 20 program.

[cyan skiff]

I don't think the situation is hopeless, nor do I think someone can't get a job without a degree

[vapid jay]

I thought I knew probability and stats until I trialed an MIT course 😂

[white relic]

...

[cyan skiff]

Yes

I wouldn't pay for a degree if it's from a university HR has never heard of and doesn't give me an advantage

[summer roost]

I agree that it's possible to get a job without a degree, but as far as likelihood goes, someone with a degree from a no-name school likely has a much, much easier time getting a job than someone with no degree, based on every testimonial I've ever heard, and based on my own experience (on both sides of the interview)

[vapid jay]

Have you worked in HR?

[cyan skiff]

Nope

[summer roost]

done any hiring?

[vapid jay]

Do you have a degree from a prestigious university?

[cyan skiff]

also nope

[white relic]

where are you getting these extremely confident takes from or are you just going to say "everyone says so" again
honestly, never mind, this is a ridiculous argument. good night

[delicate bane]

another degree discussion? someone ping me if yall talk about anything interesting not related to degree vs. no degree

[cyan skiff]

Good night I guess

[vapid jay]

So... Is Python Full Stack Developer a viable option?

[graceful mason]

not unless you're the one deciding the tech stack (99% of the time)

[cyan skiff]

@summer roost do your HR department know any universities outside of like top 50 internationally

[delicate bane]

you will still most likely work with some flavor of javascript/html/css for the frontend even with a python backend

[summer roost]

no, like I said - I barely notice the name of the university. If it's a name that I recognize at a glance, that's a bonus, but I haven't memorized university rankings or anything like that.

[cyan skiff]

I've just assumed HR don't really know much because well... I've yet to hear someone whose primarily plan was HR

[delicate bane]

one of the teams at the company do python + react.js

[cyan skiff]

so unless it's super prestigious it's basically the same for you, am I right?

[summer roost]

HR has much less input into the hiring process than people new to the field seem to think...

[graceful mason]

you seem to think HR have a lot more impact on the final hiring decision than they do...?

[cyan skiff]

To be honest, I don't know how shortlisting works... at all

I thought you reach a stage in your career where recruiters hit you up, have I misunderstood that?

And don't they chase the big names?

[balmy spade]

Make a linkdin profile. Instant recruiters.

[summer roost]

yes. For a new graduate, in order of preference, I'd prefer someone with a CS degree, then someone with a non-CS STEM degree where they did software development as part of the degree, then someone with a non-STEM degree, then someone with no degree.

[summer roost]

that's true

[vapid jay]

FANNG maybe

[summer roost]

not really. Maybe in terms of the companies you've worked at in the past. Not in terms of the university you went to a decade or more ago.

[cyan skiff]

Companies also matter

[brave bridge]

a CSS degree is useless. because most jobs are backend

[cyan skiff]

Like, there's tiers, you know

[cyan skiff]

since when is that a thing lol

[vapid jay]

tiers?

[summer roost]

picture a spreadsheet, with some sorting and filtering applied.

[cyan skiff]

yeah, tiers of companies, there's quant hedge funds, then faangs, then your big well known firms like banks, then some the medium sized, etc

at least that's how I view it

[vapid jay]

you know what faangs are?

[summer roost]

I don't think that's true at all.

[cyan skiff]

in terms of the acronym, yes - in terms of a strict definition, no, as I am applying this to more than just 5 companies

[cyan skiff]

It's certainly true in terms of competition

[balmy spade]

What is the tier ranked by here?

[summer roost]

there's a small number of companies that are well known for having hiring pipelines that reject the overwhelming majority of candidates. Having one of those one your resume is beneficial, because it says to future employers that you were able to pass that extremely selective screening process. Outside of that, the name of the company matters much less than the type of work you were doing and the tenure you had.

[cyan skiff]

Great question, I don't know, to be honest.
A bit of everything? How bleeding edge technology is? Best practices? Company structure? Compensation?

[balmy spade]

Oh...

[cyan skiff]

I haven't thought of a formal definition

[summer roost]

all of those are pretty tough to compare across companies, even compensation.

[balmy spade]

You might need to rethink the tier names then too.

[vapid jay]

So there really isn't a such thing as Python FS... 😦

[cyan skiff]

Why is that?

[summer roost]

there are very few software dev jobs that use only a single language, full stop.

[brave bridge]

there usually is nothing like a full stack that does only one language

[balmy spade]

Exactly what godly hinted at. You'll find it very difficult to compare anything across the category of company.

[cyan skiff]

So how do you compare companies (as a prospective candidate)?

[vapid jay]

Then why do we have names like Java FS and Ruby FS ?

[balmy spade]

Me? I look at the work culture. But I'm simplistic like that.

[cyan skiff]

Doesn't that vary across teams (within the company) too?

[summer roost]

it's quite hard, even when you focus on only a single one of those factors that you named, and nearly impossible to do in any sort of objective way when you consider multiple of them.

[cyan skiff]

or do you just try to form an idea of the "average" work culture?

[balmy spade]

Yes it does and that is part of what I look at.

[summer roost]

those are Java or Ruby on the backend and JavaScript on the frontend.

[cyan skiff]

How do you look at that?

[summer roost]

the frontend is assumed to be JavaScript, so the name is telling you what the other half of the stack is.

[balmy spade]

Networking and asking questions. The last interview I had, about seven years ago, I'm pretty sure I asked more questions than my interview team.

[cyan skiff]

Okay, so what on earth do you look for in a company? Assuming their ethics line up with yours

other than comp*

[summer roost]

I care a lot about compensation, and whether the work is interesting and challenging, and work-life balance, and whether the work is ethically defensible.

[balmy spade]

Is it odd that comp is almost the last thing on my list of concerns?

[cyan skiff]

Damn, you stuck with a company 7 years? They must be keeping you real happy x)

[summer roost]

I wouldn't say "odd", no. Different factors will matter more to different people. My family struggled with money when I was growing up, and that instilled in me a very strong desire to avoid money as a stressor.

[balmy spade]

They stay out of my way and let me keep myself happy. In return I enjoy pushing goals that help them.

[brave bridge]

you already won with money aspect if you are lucky and spawn in USA

[cyan skiff]

What do you think of the idea that no human (i.e. 99%+) truly wants to work? We just talk about "meaningful" work as a result of the circumstances we've been through, sort of like a coping mechanism over centuries

[summer roost]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. There's plenty of poverty in the US. More than in most other western nations, by far.

[cyan skiff]

still a bit of a toss up for me, right now in the UK but got that US passport too

due to underlying medical conditions, it's difficult to judge the value

[summer roost]

Plenty of people enter retirement, and then decide to go back to work because retirement is boring. How would you explain that if "no human truly wants to work"?

[brave bridge]

i mean that if you have a okayish job in the us you are far better off than if you have a okayish job anywhere else (even europe)

[balmy spade]

You make me rethink my transition from retail to technology. $15/hr was the internship offer and I didn't even talk it up. It was almost double what I had been making. Now I'm thinking that the stress factor of income was removed so quickly that I, blindly, think I didn't have that concern. Introspection is great.

[cyan skiff]

Well, when I say work I mean they don't truly want to do this job, it's just a means to an end

Although your statement is interesting, I think it comes from humans being creatures of habit

[summer roost]

I'm quite certain that's not true. The US median standard of living is quite low compared to western Europe. Less disposable income, less economic stability, a worse social safety net, worse work/life balance...

[cyan skiff]

But then again, Stockholm Syndrome exists too

[cyan skiff]

The highs are higher and the lows are lower, it's that simple

[delicate bane]

what godly said

[summer roost]

right, but the median is also lower.

[cyan skiff]

It's so difficult to measure

[brave bridge]

idk i talked to programmers who earn 150k a month

[summer roost]

not really. The median life expectancy for someone born in the US is 3 years shorter than someone born in the UK, for instance. That's quite easy to measure.

[cyan skiff]

I mean, how can we measure so many things? Pollution? Quality of public and transport? It's soooooooo difficult to measure

[brave bridge]

and then complain about paying 2k rent a month, when in europe you are lucky earning 50k and still having to pay 1.5k rent 🤣 how is that standard of living quite low

[summer roost]

that's not an "okayish" job. That's a top 2% or 3% job.

[ocean idol]

python programmer can get more 10k per months ?

[cyan skiff]

That may be true, but there could be a variety of reasons for that...

[summer roost]

depending on their level of experience, that's possible, yes.

[ocean idol]

wich python i should study? data or appweb or deep Lea ???

[summer roost]

sure, there are a variety of reasons, but most of them reflect poorly on the US. We're worse at managing chronic health conditions by far, for instance.

[brave bridge]

probably python devs who earn that much, usually are not only python devs.

[cyan skiff]

I mean, it could be as simple an argument as "it's embedded in American culture to eat unhealthy food every weekend". (I'm not saying it is, btw)
Does that mean your quality of life is lower in the US than the UK?
I judge things by the opportunity, personally, as opposed to the average or median

[ocean idol]

i've an electrtechnical industrial gradute, and im beginner in py

[cyan skiff]

MLE/Data Scientist?

[balmy spade]

Most employed devs, in not all, are not a one language dev.

[brave bridge]

i was thinking more of CS degree, + experience in C/C++/java and some other languages

[summer roost]

again, there's basically no such thing as someone who's "only" a python dev. The overwhelming majority of developers use multiple languages in their day to day job.

[cyan skiff]

Though C++ is viable for just one language tbh

[ocean idol]

so wwhich branch you think is better

[summer roost]

Does that mean your quality of life is lower in the US than the UK?
yes, "indoctrinated into decisions that harm you" is definitely a way in which your quality of life is lower.

[cyan skiff]

I would never choose one language only though

[balmy spade]

Anyone working in the field and even most hobby devs, will not have one language.

[brave bridge]

thats literally what i wrote when i said "are not only python devs" @summer roost

[summer roost]

the way you worded it seemed to imply that someone who's "only" a Python dev would be paid less, as opposed to not existing at all.

[cyan skiff]

Why do you assume it's indoctrination? Culture is now indoctrination? I live in the UK, huge Christmas culture, have never felt "indoctrinated" to celebrate xmas

[summer roost]

yes, culture is absolutely indoctrination.

[cyan skiff]

Why is that?

[brave bridge]

because u grow up with a set of cultural rules that you oblige by without questioning them by default

[summer roost]

the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
That's literally what a culture is, right? The things that we grew up with and never questioned?

[cyan skiff]

No, of course not, why is that the definition

Who would accept anything uncritically

[brave bridge]

almost all children

[cyan skiff]

That's true

[brave bridge]

and stupid people

[summer roost]

most everyone. Most people believe that the religion that they happened to be lucky enough to be born into is the one true religion, for instance.

[cyan skiff]

That is true, not sure if I would put that in culture, but I agree with that point

[brave bridge]

tbf there is only one true religion tho. and that is mine

[cyan skiff]

I mean the way I see it is culture has to do with more loose things, such as the hospitality of a particular town, festivals that take place, tradition of bringing the family together on a particular day

[summer roost]

I mean, religion is a stark example, but the same applies to pretty much everything. Most people continue eating the food that they grew up eating for the rest of their lives, for another.

[cyan skiff]

I don't see why culture has to necessarily be some form of indoctrination

[brave bridge]

i dont. i changed the whole cuisine i devour since my childhood

[cyan skiff]

I can see examples in which it is, but I don't think it is necessarily (by definition, if you like)

[summer roost]

well, then, to be clear, I meant culture in this sense:

the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time

[brave bridge]

it just is alot by definition

[summer roost]

hm. I eat a lot more foods than I grew up eating, but my comfort foods are still mostly foods that I grew up with. Most of them terrible for me 🙂

[cyan skiff]

This is where my expertise ends (or rather has long ended xD) but... have you considered how that culture sprang into existence?

I get your point though, a significant portion of modern "culture" is indoctrination and accepted without any critical analysis or thought

[summer roost]

in group/out group psychology, mostly, I'd suspect. Though that's getting well off-topic.

[cyan skiff]

So, which part of careers were we at

[summer roost]

although, for the modern US culture, much of it is explained by advertising, I think.

[cyan skiff]

who watches ads? Linus Tech Tips

As a side note I want to mention that I absolutely hate adverts, clickbait, short attention span stuff, it's degrading our society

And I don't care if I have to indulge in piracy just to keep my sanity

[brave bridge]

if you dont spend 3 hours a day on tiktok you are a loser imo

[cyan skiff]

*you have a life

[summer roost]

going back to this, comparing salaries across countries without considering cost of living isn't terribly meaningful. Are utilities included in the rent, or separate? How much is spent on education and child care? How much (time and money) is spent on commuting? How much is an average grocery bill, or dining at a restaurant? Don't get me wrong, $150k is a decent salary even in the most expensive parts of the US, but someone making 50k euros likely has a significantly better quality of life than someone making 50k dollars.

[brave bridge]

sure but someone making 50k euros is like in top 10% where id assume someone in US with 50k dollars is what? not even 50th percentile?

[summer roost]

median US individual income is $31k, per google

[brave bridge]

like u said really hard to compare. e.g. average rent too, us of course cheaper. but usually US ends up with more squarefeet / footballfields

[true harness]

the median family income in the US is just 60ish

[summer roost]

indeed, the $31k is individual income.

[summer roost]

perhaps. Europe is very, very densely populated compared to the US. Europeans tend to be shocked out how sparsely populated even the most densely populated US states are.

[brave bridge]

i wonder if US is as big as europe. i think there was a map where u could compare countrysize without projection i think

https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTYxNDMxOTc.MzgwOTIxMQ*MzU0NzE2NTA(MjAyMDQ3OA~!CONTIGUOUS_US*MTAwMjQwNzU.MjUwMjM1MTc(MTc1)Mg~!IN*NTI2NDA1MQ.Nzg2MzQyMQ)MA~!CN*OTkyMTY5Nw.NzMxNDcwNQ(MjI1)MQ

[summer roost]

the US is about the same size as all of Europe put together.

[true harness]

Western Europe?

[brave bridge]

lol it really is as big as most of europe

[true harness]

wow. I am a true American

[brave bridge]

so its not a prejudice. america is fat 💀

[pine sleet]

is this a jojo reference?

[brave bridge]

i dont know what jojo reference mean?

[summer roost]

huge chunks of the US are basically uninhabited, though.

the entire middle of the country is desert and farmland, with few actual residents. The population is concentrated heavily on the coasts.

[spark cobalt]

Oh what the shit that's low

[spark cobalt]

Indoctrination doesn't require some primary aggressor. It is human nature to fit in with those around them, behave like them, etc.

[pine sleet]

I hear the US is about 70% just empty space and rural areas
Not sure if that's entirely true.. but just what i heard

[summer roost]

https://www.hrsa.gov/rural-health/about-us/what-is-rural seems to say that 85% of the population lives in 28% of the land.

[spark cobalt]

This lies in how humans went from animal to civilization. There's lots of speculation and honestly we don't know many things (how did humans develop agriculture and domestication?), but it's much simpler than you think it is. Society started with the fact that humans are unable to live alone in the animal kingdom, we're simply not strong enough. So just like ants, we form groups of humans to create society. And if you treat the evolution of society as evolution of any other living thing, those humans that bonded together lived on, and those humans that didn't, died.

From our creation of society, this led to our next phase of evolution. Some societies that weren't structured or non-homogenous died out quick. Others, survived. Eventually with enough trials, you notice societies around the world start following very similar practices. Most notably: religion/moral code, government, agriculture/domestication, etc. (unshockingly, hunting/gathering is not a sustainable society). But that isn't to say primitive hunting/gathering societies didn't have culture either. They all practiced patriarchy from the physical differences between men and women. That created rules and designations for each sex. Through their lack of education, they created religion (particularly totemism) from their fear of the unknown (death, birth, dreams, etc.) And so on...

It's not that anyone "made" culture, it's enough societies with all sorts of practices and the evolution of humanities/environment/etc. that died to create the culture we see today. Ants never consciously agreed to start working together, they did it as a means of survival. They never consciously agree to have a hierarchy, those without it simply just died. Those ant colonies that didn't prioritize protecting their queen ended up dying, an the ants we see today are just the remains of what cultures "survived" through the ages.

I really thought 60k was the median, but it being household?? Phew....

Great seeing you again as well Have you started college yet? If so, how is it?

Lots of work this month. Currently studying Fiber (Go) to move to one of the cooler parts of a project I'm on. Deals with cloud routing and whatnot which is really intriguing for me. Also started learning Japanese!

But right now just slammed with a bunch of tickets left and right.

I started a couple weeks ago. Besides the grammar and the kanji, everything else is going pretty nicely. I'm really just trying to be able to decipher and break down Japanese speaking. That's the current challenge right now, being able to listen.

A little lucky that I've watched anime for lot of my life. So I'm able to hear some words really really well. Like about a couple hundred from anime alone .

Looking to move there, company is potentially opening up a new mini branch in Japan cuz of Softbank and other Japanese company's involvement, and just why not.

This sounds like the weebiest shit ever, but I mean it also let me watch anime without subs and listen to Japanese music and understand what they're saying . Though the Japanese music part is gonna be like, a million years from now. That'll be a huge nut to crack.

If my company is opening up positions located in Japan, means that several boundaries for if I want to move there are dealt with. Which is really nice.

But yeah, fun adventure.

[delicate bane]

learn jp like you learn software

[spark cobalt]

Both have languages, concepts, and other shit, might just work

Wait I can say that way better. Both have grammar/syntax, vocabulary/concepts, etc.

Oh can go in rabbit hole of like Japanese poetry and reading comprehension

Probably in same boat as Sky and have to do some work over the weekend

[brittle radish]

Russia is bigger than the whole of Europe. Europe is 10.53 million km², while Russia is 17.1 million km². Lmao, imagine a country being bigger than a continent

[hearty island]

lmao i'm gonna be reading about health insurance pray for me

[spark cobalt]

😔

[hearty island]

gotta get that domain knowledge somehow

[buoyant seal]

🫠

[buoyant seal]

may be it is easier to interrogate health insurance people 🙂

(getting at least some meaning from meetings)

[hearty island]

oh yeah. i'm gonna be talking to the ceo and asking questions. he's always encouraged me to learn more

[buoyant seal]

Suggested scene of interrogation

[buoyant seal]

Speaking of Domain Knowledge, book like Domain Driven Design is usually recommended in regards to Software Development about it
hehe, writing code reflecting accumulated Domain knowledge

[hearty island]

i won't be writing code abt it tho, it's a pm role. i have joined the dark side

[buoyant seal]

or more like light side 🙂

[hearty island]

haha

HMOs, PPOs, POSs, HDHPs 💀 this is why health insurance kills me

[balmy hill]

haha

[near remnant]

I've got invited to a junior ML interview. I passed the first two rounds, they will send me a take home assignment next week. I have experience with their stack (python, html, css, flask, js, etc) and made projects with flask but honestly, I don't know what to expect. I never worked with ML, any advice?

[peak halo]

how did you get that far in the interview process if you don't have any experience with ML?

[near remnant]

Because they are looking for someone who has experience with their stack and they can teach the rest

But honestly, dunno. We'll see.

[peak halo]

So is this an ML ops position? what is the full name of the position? because "junior machine learning" is not a job.