career-advice

[still condor]

what if you put in buzzwords in white text, so that they are only visible by bots?

tbh I think this style of buzzwor-matching only reinforces the stack-matching thing

maybe I should just find niche job postings where it's unlikely that lots of people target

[digital fjord]

I think if you can find a job posting where you apply by email, you have better chances of at least having your resume be seen by a human being, since emails are read by humans.

[still condor]

emails can be read by bots too

[white relic]

it's risky, sometimes the machine will dump this to some mangled text format and that's what the HR person will see

I have a text version of my resume and a PDF version and I usually try to upload both if there's an option but you never know what they're going to get out the other side

[still condor]

"sql postgres postgresql git linux rabbitmq if you're reading this ask me for a bottle of rum"

[white relic]

that might work lol (but only if you bring the rum)

[still condor]

maybe I could search for startups

I assume they're a bit more open minded, and I might find something genuinely interesting instead of doing the programming equivalent of cleaning a toilet with a fork

[white relic]

depends a lot on the startup.
Where are you in your career right now btw? (Haven't read the whole history, sorry if you mentioned it already)

like is this a first job, second job or are you a seasoned professional or what

[still condor]

I did some freelancing work on and off in 2020-2021, then since oct2021 I was working full-time

[white relic]

I was advised at about age 20 that it's easier to start in big companies and work your way into smaller ones over time. I started in a big company as an engineer and spun that into my current (much smaller) job, which I like a lot and has startup-esque elements to it.

So, that advice worked out for me. Take it for what it's worth.

(Admittedly I'm only in my 30s now... so my career is far from over)

[smoky quest]

most companies will use lever/indeed or other ATSes which aggregate multiple job posting

[elder quarry]

Any tips for personal statements for computer science

[gilded valley]

For university applications?

[elder quarry]

yeah

[gilded valley]

I don't have any suggestions. But background for non-Brits reading is that when applying for UK universities you include a 4000 character "personal statement" explaining why you'd be a good student

[elder quarry]

yeah that's what i'm doing now, appreciate it anyway

[tough charm]

dyou have any projects or super curriculars you can talk abt in it?

[elder quarry]

i have a reinforcement learning project that i've talked about

and i'm currently doing a pathfinding algorithm that i'll be able to put in once i've finished it

[tough charm]

sounds good, what a levels did u do

[elder quarry]

maths computer science and physics

[tough charm]

ik some unis like further maths when applying for comp sci especially bc its rly competitive but thats not for the vast majority, depends where your aiming on applying

[elder quarry]

my only choice so far is a degree apprenticeship at the university of Birmingham

[still condor]

wha-

that's... mildly cursed

[hoary summit]

6 years ago I withdrew from my CS degree to pursue a professional poker career. I retired 2 weeks ago and have spent the last year coding (mostly in python). I want to add another language to my toolbelt and find myself caught between two paths.

My competitive nature (college football / poker) is drawing me to competitive programming with C++. As well as my father being a long standing member of the VS C++ compiler team.
Pros: Great language, resources, and motivation
Cons: First language was C, now python, C++ might be too narrow?

Most resources preach Web Dev as the most efficient way to gain employment in the tech world especially as a "self-taught". Easier to prove skills and lots of libraries in JS to interact with the modern world.
Pros: Faster employment (anecdotal?), Already know some backend w/ python
Cons: Boredom, UI/X not as interesting

[smoky quest]

Languages are tools, mean to an end. Not an end in itself.
So focus first on the role(s) you want to apply and then walk backward from there.

As a side note, competitive programming is not relevant to jobs

[prisma gate]

How far could an Associate's degree get me in finding a career as a software developer?

[dreamy shadow]

Depends on YOE, but still better to have a Bachelor's in CS

[dreamy shadow]

Grad schools in the US sometimes also require a "Personal Statement", but mostly a Statement of Purpose. (Aka. Why you want to go here, and what are your creds)

[prisma gate]

Alright, thanks. I'm in my first year of college and CS is already stressing me out. I'll try to get used to it. Heck, I'm trying to do it now even.

[dreamy shadow]

A degree will always be worth it in the end.

[true harness]

it's probably not true to say "always". it would be ill advised to go after a degree no matter what

[dreamy shadow]

A degree in STEM*.

[true harness]

still not always true. there are many things to consider. especially in the US, cost is a huge factor

[dreamy shadow]

always here, means 99.99%. Not going to nit pick the <1%

[true harness]

it's not nitpicking. there are valid reasons to get a degree and valid reasons to not get a degree. to say "always" is painting a very one sided picture of things

[prisma gate]

I go to a community college so cost isn't really something I'm considering. What I'm considering more is the time.

[dreamy shadow]

In the US, go to community college for 2 years then transfer to 4 years for the last 2 years.

[prisma gate]

I live in NYC and the community college we have here are a mix of 4 years and 2 years. I'm at a 4 year one. So I might just stay at this one or transfer to another 4 year one.

Or a 2 year one if I'm planning to get a associate degree

[dreamy shadow]

If your going into CS, I recommend 4 years. Transfer out after 2 years to a university if your grades are good.

[prisma gate]

Maybe. I applied to several private colleges and the cost is a bit high. I'll just try to make it through so far and see where I go from there.

[dreamy shadow]

There's public schools too. CS academic wise tends to be more standardized in what you learn.

[gritty rivet]

I agree with the advice to focus on targeting roles not languages

And I think about roles in relation to projects. What do you want to build? What's going to keep you interested? I wouldn't learn another language unless it's directly tied to that kind of goal. Go deeper with the languages you already know unless you have a good reason to branch out

[dreamy shadow]

Should I kill my "Relevant Course Topics" on my resume? I have 2.5ish YoE atm, 2 positions

[delicate bane]

hmm i probably would in your shoes but thats my opinion

[peak halo]

it's pretty difficult to fill a page as a new professional, so if that's the position that you're in, adding relevant courses seems like a good idea.

[dreamy shadow]

This was the original reason why I had it. As a new grad, my original resume even had a executive summary section. However, now I think it's time to remove it?

Here's what my current resume looks like. I've been trying to condense sections down as I have been told there's a bit too much text and too much details. Examples length I'm seeing have 3-4 bullet point single sentence.

Times New Roman + 10pt font for bullet points.

[delicate bane]

yeah it is kinda a lot of text. and definitely with this experience, i would remove the relevant courses but thats me.

i would try to select maybe only the high impact bullet points for your work experience. or consider your next role/what youre applying for and craft the bullet points to such a role. you can keep a version of this for reference

maybe consider reranking your bullets from high impact to low impact as well

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I decided to cut the relevant courses. I also gutted some of the detailed bullet points and reworded to be more general while trying to include technologies. (Trying to keep high impact bullet points) Edit: I still need to reword the ML Analyst role, I think some of the bullet points can be better.

Times new roman, 11 pt font body, 14/24 for headers/names

I also wonder if I should change ML Analyst -> Data scientist. Essentially my responsibilities didn't change from start-up -> large company.

[smoky quest]

as a reviewer, I would look for more info on the production side of things and the scale of the data

also all the bullets are about technical points. But a component of seniority is the responsibility/scope/impact. Seems missing

[dreamy shadow]

Could you elaborate on "production side of things"? As in how models are implemented? For scale of data, so i.e. how many claims models are trained on, etc?
Yea, impact is one I'm struggling to convey.

[smoky quest]

yes to both.
Like developing models is great, but showing they did get taken to prod and were useful is even better. So is demonstrating you would know how to do so.

And for scale, there is a difference between processing 10k claims total to 10k claims per minute ( I know it's not realistic, but for the sake of the example)

[dreamy shadow]

Oh, ok. Yes, they are all productionized(Spelling) models that are currently being used by another dashboard that is client facing. I guess I should add that somewhere.
Fortunately, unfortunately(?) there's only about < 10million claims total.

Thanks for those suggestions, I'll need to think about how I can add them in.

[smoky quest]

yeah and when you take things to production, it also open up new lines of questions like observability, drift, etc.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I did have a bullet point in the earlier version about monitoring for data drift, distribution of scores. I'll definitely need to reword/restructure the ML analyst section.

[delicate bane]

oh yeah thats def important to mention.

[spark cobalt]

At least getting in the industry, it's significantly easier with a degree. Working as SWE as high school grad. Same class as you. But it's a fuckton of work. Was pretty much fulltime + overtime commitment over our junior year (god bless COVID)

I think people ignore the advantage of time. While I have lower education, by the time our class graduates, I have 4 YOE.

[smoky quest]

the trick is years of education are more valuable than years of experience

There was a study about how each year of education will add 10k$/year of income, compounding over time. Not that I would specifically trust that number, but it gives a general sense

[spark cobalt]

Perhaps, but my goal isn't really money.

[smoky quest]

It's part of most people's goal 😉
It also tends to correlate with responsibilities

[spark cobalt]

At least for me, I just don't want financial burdens in my like, prime years of life. I forsee it as essentially chaining myself to a job forbidding my ability to take risks.

[smoky quest]

When it comes to CS, it's seen more as an investment than a burden. Especially when you can get 100k+ right out of school. Any school loan wouldn't matter

[spark cobalt]

Yeah that's a fair point.

[smoky quest]

if it was social studies on the other hand...

[spark cobalt]

Assuming this is true though, compounding is more effective given more time.

Age discrimination is a thing as well. If you didn't do CS degree and switched in like mid 30s, you have lower prospect than for example me at 18

[smoky quest]

Regardless of your age, not having a degree would close off a lot of paths

[spark cobalt]

Lots of things to consider. But ultimately I think the most valuable part of college degree is that the education covers more than just CS. And that's something I'm missing out on.

[ocean stream]

hey im planning for the future and im curious if getting a internship over summer as a first year is useful if you want to get a good cs job after college.
youtube tells me it is good to get and teaches you a lot but my parents tell me that getting money from a min wage job and learning how to manage it is more important and they also say that i wont get to do meaningful work at an internship as a first year ill just be moving physical computers and doing manual labor not coding stuff
any insight?

[spark cobalt]

Have to juggle self learning things beyond just CS. For example rn doing probability and economics. Lot of work

[smoky quest]

In the grand scheme of things, neither will move the needle. Both can teach valuable lessons in their own ways.

[spark cobalt]

Internship is a more related job and can make you stand out on resume ig :/

[spark cobalt]

Particularly what paths if you don't mind me asking?

[ocean stream]

what lessons does a first year internship teach?

[smoky quest]

The more advanced paths. Lot's of non webdev specifically.
So that include lots of advanced AI/ML, analysis, compilation, engineering, etc.

[ocean stream]

and if neither move the needle is it more effective to just do self study and personal projects?

[smoky quest]

It gives you a sense of how companies work, you get to talk to many people across the company and ask them about their jobs, etc.

[spark cobalt]

Ah yeah fair enough. Landed a job that isn't web dev (thankfully) so hopefully able to grow more in that respect.

[smoky quest]

There are so many options!
Even traveling abroad could expand your mind.
If you are young and early, like in your first year, it's better to go broad than deep. So seek a variety of experiences

[spark cobalt]

I work at a networking/OS company. Lots of cool things 🥳

[smoky quest]

sounds fun too!

[spark cobalt]

It is. The company's great 🥳

[ocean stream]

when should a student start getting specific?

[spark cobalt]

When you found something you can see yourself doing long term 🥳

[smoky quest]

It's up to you. Some do in their last year, some don't do it until a few years of experience

[ocean stream]

if ive already found something i like doing specifically should i just narrow in on that?

[spark cobalt]

Even now I'm still trying to expand my coverage even though I'm working. So many things to do in this industry it's amazing. The more you dive in and touch with like the potential of technology, the more you realize you don't know shit 🤣

[smoky quest]

Have you checked other areas to make sure you aren't missing out?

and also try to project yourself. Think about what you liked 5 years ago comparing to what you like now. Do you think what you like now will be the same in 20 years?

[ocean stream]

yeah, but most seem pretty boring i really just care about math and ai which is pretty average

[smoky quest]

It's up to you. Just making sure you aren't regretting anything

[ocean stream]

thats something i have no clue about, i completely switched my life plan in hs so i couldnt make an accurate prediction

[smoky quest]

that's kind of my point with regards to commitments 😉

[ocean stream]

does that happen consistently to every1???

[smoky quest]

yes. To everyone

[ocean stream]

y do people change plans, i changed mine because the pay wouldve been less then min wage

[spark cobalt]

You're still a freshman lol. You have the time to take in multiple internships, work with different companies, try to figure out if you like startup vs big company vibe, etc. Lot of time to explore!

[smoky quest]

I have worked in monitoring, observability, big data, ml, AI, compilers, security, mobile social apps, ecommerce, iot, etc. And I enjoyed it all!

[ocean stream]

well ig thats pretty open ended, what about for you?

so essentially get experience make a decision? learning how to actually code in the meantime?

[ocean stream]

what made you change from all those things to other things?

[smoky quest]

Some people are dead set on something for life and some others aren't. It's entirely up to you and that's ok

[spark cobalt]

Pretty amazing stuff 🤩

[ocean stream]

are those types of people happy with the results lol

[smoky quest]

I like to learn new things and I am more interested in building awesome and fun stuff.
What I had on my side are solid foundations that enabled me to quickly adapt and catch up and learn

[smoky quest]

If they aren't, they can always specialize or change.

[ocean stream]

so u did whatever was the most fun ig, when something got boring you switched?

[smoky quest]

Once you get out of school, life gets very much non-linear. It's not like there is a set path with middle -> high -> college anymore

[smoky quest]

Pretty much. Obviously there were other factors at play like the people, compensaiton, opportunities, learning, etc.

[ocean stream]

wdym non linear, why cant you really plan out your life, is it just you learn a ton of little lessons here and there that you cant predict where you would learn them?

[smoky quest]

Because there is no set path.
If you are in middle school, you know you have to get in high school and you know you need specific grades to get into that specific school.

But once you are done with school, there isn't any specific goal or metric other than what you set for yourself

[ocean stream]

cant you just make ur own path, like you want to get a job at this company and need these qualifications to get in

kinda like applying to a college ig

[spark cobalt]

I think you're forgetting that it's also a choice. If you're just looking for a stable income, that's also easily achievable. Just some people want to keep learning and doing new things.

[smoky quest]

you are exactly right! But that's your own path. Totally different from mine

[ocean stream]

so ur telling me you can do whatever you want?

[smoky quest]

yes, welcome to america

[ocean stream]

mannn ima go to china and go do plumbing

[smoky quest]

I have a friend who decided to become a chef after getting their masters

[spark cobalt]

There's gonna be no houses to plumb soon 😂

[ocean stream]

lolll

[spark cobalt]

Lack of incentive to maintain when housing market crashes. Plumbing industry about to literally go down the toilet in China.

[smoky quest]

I have some friends who got some opportunities to emigrate to different countries

[ocean stream]

thats so strange lol

[spark cobalt]

Tbh that's the dream.

[smoky quest]

tbh, I was one of them as I arrived in the USA. Totally unplanned too btw

[spark cobalt]

Would hate to live my entire life without fully getting to immerse myself in the world we live in

[ocean stream]

goal: get as far away from the us for as long as possible

[spark cobalt]

But all the fun tech stuff is here :c

[ocean stream]

move it to other places

make a company and get rich in ukrain by making cool tech companies

[spark cobalt]

It's called Texas 💀

[ocean stream]

but they got horses so whos really winning

[hasty pasture]

Have you made any programs.? I’m in the same boat as you btw looking for intern

[near ocean]

They have projects listed on their cv so i imagine yes

[nocturne valve]

Hey, how do I say "learn to be a data scientist from zero" in a more formal way, like using terms? It's the same of full-stack data scientist?

[rich spade]

What's the best paid courses for learning to be a data scientist from scratch? No time for free ones for while, I am behind the schedule...

I had found and got 365 Data Science courses as my best choice until now!

[peak halo]

what's your academic/professional background?

I see you're taking a long time to answer this. I just want to know what degree(s) you already have and what job you have.

[rich spade]

Practically nothing, I studied the essential of the basics, went from data structure and basic functions, libs, modules and packages, files manipulation, try and exception and was starting OOP!

I was already "doing" some web scraping, but like a blind in a black box, if it get right, good, if don't, try again, till I reach my results.

[rich spade]

No one

[peak halo]

If you don't have any academic or professional experience, it's very unlikely that you'll ever be able to become a data scientist without a degree. So, that would be the best "paid courses" for learning to be a data scientist from scratch.

[rich spade]

That's the gap, I already am doing a grad in data science

[peak halo]

why didn't you say that when I asked "what's your academic/professional background?"?

[rich spade]

Thought you meant done degrees

English isn't my first lang bro, patience

But I realized that the classes and including the university itself, lack so much of didactics, teaching methods and even knowledge from teachers apart, I think that great portion of the external courses are better than my classes.

[wild skiff]

Software engineering job is easier than a data scientists job?

[rich spade]

That's my POV.

Do you think that only a university course is sufficient?
I think that in any way it will never be, the major success depends on your engagement and performance although the learning needs a knowledge source to be extracted, but if there's no proper university that could do that, what do you expect?

[rich spade]

Anyone?
I need the programming side only...

[hardy ocean]

yo what type of projects could be included on resume?
is it only the projects thats been deployed?

[delicate bane]

have you considered doing internships before you graduate? real world experience is one of the best ways to learn

[white relic]

any projects that you have done and are willing to talk about in an interview are fair game

a lot of projects I've done can't really be said to have been "deployed" in any meaningful sense

[hardy ocean]

so for example i created a management system on django but no one really used it but i created it i can present it on my resume?

[rich spade]

Yes, but I did some basic courses in time before my course starts, and I am at the 1º semester yet... I want to cut off my learning time considerably...

I don't know why are you avoiding from telling me paid courses if that is exactly what I need and want, and if practice and experience are the principal point here, why not getting that by the "paid courses" too?

They exist for some finality, I think, or never should be sold

[rich spade]

I know that paid courses delivery the subjects with much more facility, but my need is going beyond that, if so, I wouldn't do that

Nobody here will teach me data science, so please, let me pay who will

P.S.: Nothing personal with anyone here, just exposing the truth

[white relic]

Sure, as long as you're prepared to explain it to an interviewer. If you can publish it on GitHub or somewhere that's good, but even if it's proprietary, you can still list it on your resume. It's part of your experience and presumably something you're proud of creating.

If the interviewer is doing their job, they may ask you about the system to see if you really know what things you would have learned from doing that kind of project. You should be prepared for that kind of thing. I've never been asked to prove that I made something and my resume is almost all secret stuff (gov't contractor for 8 years)

[hardy ocean]

oh wow thats long 8 years

may experience is 0 years 🥲

[white relic]

they're over now, I can start building up a slightly more public portfolio

[modern crypt]

Hey I'm in the same boat looking for internships this summer while in my first year of a CS degree

Anyone able to give me feedback on my resume so far?

I wanted to put more down for what I've done since being at university but there's not much interesting classwork between now and internship deadlines. I've joined the coding society but so far all we've been doing is leetcode, and the hackathons won't start until nearer the end of this year.

[white relic]

That looks pretty good to me. It's a little wordy and mentions some stuff I wouldn't bother to put on a resume (Vim & tmux). But if I were hiring for someone to develop into a full stack dev I would give the OK for an interview

[hardy ocean]

oh you can put ongoing projects aswell?

[modern crypt]

No idea lol this is my second draft of just waffle

[white relic]

definitely

[modern crypt]

Yeah I see what you mean what bits would you say need to be more concise

[hardy ocean]

oh i see thats another good tip for me nice nice

[near ocean]

Dont you already do that? You said youre doing a degree in Data Science

[rich spade]

Yes I do, and why do you think it's enough?

[near ocean]

Because its a university course? Why do you think its not enough?

[rich spade]

Did you read what I wrote sooner about that?

[true harness]

wdym "made any programs"

[white relic]

It's worth pointing out that this kind of thing is very subjective. What I see as fluff might be exactly the thing you need to hook the next hiring manager who looks at it. So I won't quibble over wording or anything but the two things I notice that I probably wouldn't include are - "with keyword categorization of failures and advisory notices" re: MOT API (not really meaningful to someone who doesn't know what the API is) and - "efficient workflow" re: Unix (just name the stuff you're familiar with, your preference and opinion of its efficiency isn't really what a resume is about).

[hasty pasture]

Have you made any projects .? Coded projects

[rich spade]

And a additional point, what prevents you to have "extra classes" along with your degree course?

[true harness]

yes, there's 4 right there

[near ocean]

Nothing, its your money to spend but you should understand that this is an extraordinary scenario
You dont need anything extra, degrees are designed to be self-sufficient and self-contained

[true harness]

I would say cut down on the fluff. some stuff is unnecessarily bolded (like "backend"), unnecessary caps (Breadth in bfs).

in your technical skills section, why separate "Proficient" and "Previous ..."?

the section about your efficient workflow is completely unnecessary, just mention those in the tools list

[rich spade]

Only to remember you that the university concept here where I live that is almost the higher "institutional role", matches with community or public the colleges in U.S. basically

[modern crypt]

Thanks so much, yeah I will probably just get rid of that entire paragraph and list them in the tools section. RE the MOT bit, I assumed everyone in the UK knows what an MOT is but I can see how it wouldn't be meaningful to someone who isn't.
I should then have the space for a personal statement, do you think it's a good thing to include on the resume? Some might not request a cover letter

[rich spade]

And they freely call it university here...

[true harness]

in the us college and university are interchangeable terms

[modern crypt]

For the separation of Proficient and Previous, I thought it would be better to state that, so I didn't have to answer questions on something I'm not as skilled in.

[rich spade]

I edited my message, to "community or public college"

[hasty pasture]

Without the help of YouTube videos .?

[rich spade]

I mean that there's no havard university here... or the famous Ivy colleges

[white relic]

honestly, idk about the personal statement. It makes a difference for some people and not really for others. I think if you can write one that you like, there's probably little harm in including it.

[true harness]

I did not use YouTube videos. well, I did watch mit ocw lectures about data structures, so that probably helped. but not for the projects themselves

[modern crypt]

Yeah fair

[hasty pasture]

I see. That’s dope

[white relic]

If you try to write one and it just sounds awkward and generic, it'll probably sound awkward and generic to anyone reading it too

[true harness]

imo the personal statement is for a cover letter or LinkedIn

[modern crypt]

That's why I ask lol it probably will be

[modern crypt]

I made a linkedin but have no idea what to put on it, I guess I could just do that

Do first year students tend to use Linkedin?

[true harness]

what country are you in? in the US, yes, absolutely

[rich spade]

Yeah bro, being direct, besides my "university" having a poor education, I am having difficult to go forward with the resources I have from them, that's why I will search for paid courses

[modern crypt]

UK, I know my mum has one but she's already done a masters and had various work experiences to list there.
Neither of which I have rn

[rich spade]

Any suggestions?

[modern crypt]

There's edX, which has loads for all fields

If you pay you get a certificate as well, I think it's one of the most well known

Has courses made by top universities like Harvard, Stanford, MIT etc.

[rich spade]

Just edX? There's any competitors?
I don't know, but from what I already saw from edX data science courses, I don't think they'd give you a good course at that price for such university greatness

[modern crypt]

Yeah it's more towards concepts than an entire course you'd get from the uni

You would probably want to do a few

That's what my school told me to use they called them Massive Open Online Courses or MOOCs

[kindred lion]

Lots of competitors, coursera comes to mind, especially with the google specializations

[modern crypt]

Just look that up and you should find a few

[white relic]

certificates from online sites aren't worth buying

[rich spade]

Ok, summing up, for while, just getting out from basics and going to advanced or at least intermediate it's enough!

[white relic]

you may pay for the content if it is good, but the certificate won't make a difference. Specially if you already have or are getting a "real" degree

[rich spade]

Do you think I care to theses certifications?
I that probably am the worst professional here, have a Huawei Cert! So what's the limit? The sky hahaha

For me, the important it's to learn

[white relic]

just pointing it out

[rich spade]

Just to point it out too, I saw my teammates that won this Cert too, everyone posting their Cert photo on linkedin for increasing their networking and stand out the crowd, while I having the vision that if that was true, job interviews should be certification-based hahahahah

It's sad but it's has it part of true

[rich spade]

Yeah, but I mean not thar big ones, just for the same justification I told: "I don't think they'd give you a good course at that price for such university greatness"

[rich spade]

So for our wanting, being a huge company isn't a good point and doesn't really matters here

[white relic]

FWIW, online certificates may be more valued in some countries than here (I live in the USA). Here they are a joke.

[rich spade]

I mean like datacamp, CBTNuggets, Pluralsight, that's can be acceptable, let's say

[rich spade]

Oh, marketing tricks for big shark companies hahahaha, and it's totally the reality nowadays

[rich spade]

They know that being a Google in life makes any sh** coming from them a treasure...

It's a problem in this server to write censured bad words? haha

[rich spade]

@modern crypt , @kindred lion, @white relic !
I think that any good structured course like I said (CBTNuggets, Pluralsight...), it's in certain way better than the havard ones in coursera, they want your money, not your learning I think, nothing new.

So, any help based on what I said?
'Cause searching the real courses like that aren't easy, and till I find them alone, the time already past...

[modern crypt]

Their courses are free

[rich spade]

Yeah, I have one of cousera from MIT I guess, but there are more knowledge charging than giving you know? Like they are requesting things you even studied in your life? That's not bad so far, but I have the time issue, I don't have time for that, that's what I said since I started my question buddy, I preffer to pay for while

I need a "chewed content" haha

You know?

[white relic]

that's called "learning"

nobody has yet found a way to shortcut it

[rich spade]

To be real, yes, because for learn there must be the teaching, so talking about education, if it teaching it's the worst, That doens't mean that you won't learn, sure, but it moves my achilles tendon at the moment, the time spent for learning... Just it, and it's just enough for I buy I course with a better or even the "best" education for it instead of the free way

You guys know that being self-taught don't mean to be more intelligent, neither learning more, faster or better, huh?

[delicate bane]

?

[rich spade]

What you didn't understand exactly?

[delicate bane]

i think you will find that the learning you obtain from courses whether free, paid, or university will be fine for learning theory.

however, in the real world you will find that in practice, you will grow and learn a lot more.

hence, my earlier suggestion to obtain an internship if possible.

[near ocean]

Tbh im struggling to follow most of this
Stop looking for alternative methods, focus on your degree, graduate with a decent grade and then find a job

[rich spade]

Yes I am already trying that, but a 1º semester student don't get one without any minimum required knowledge

[rich spade]

Yeah bro, good grades = good performance != I am struggling with the uni

[near ocean]

If youre struggling with the university work then use the university resources
Talk to your professors, your classmates, use lecture notes, reading lists, etc

Youre paying them so much money to not use them and go out in search of other paid resources?

[rich spade]

I don't have time for searching each content for study in the net, paid ones will get everything together and gives me

[rich spade]

That's another reality of my country, how much you pay for it matters here, so if you paid almost for free, you don't "have the right" to claim for it

[near ocean]

What country is this and what kind of university doesnt have resources for students...

[rich spade]

I will tell you what will happen: Teachers will either laugh or get angry, saying that at his age were really worse, nothing more or less than that should happen to me

[rich spade]

Brazil, hilariously

Do you know the "Jeitinho Brasileiro"?

[buoyant seal]

In general paid courses are known for poor quality too. But thankfully u know English, so u have a choice to choose the best ones, reviewed hopefully truthfully at udemy. Check it there.

[rich spade]

Oh thanks, any other independent courses companies as suggestion, pls?

I need references

[buoyant seal]

Udemy is aggregator of courses, submitted by specific authors for selling.
It is enough, it has everything

Plus prices are all within 100$ 🙂

[rich spade]

Oh, ok, anyway, thanks!

[rich spade]

No problem, Here on Brazil on of our best data science courses is about $500 dollars for you

[rich spade]

I don't mind to save so money too, but I have some balance

[rich spade]

So, that don't scares me

One thing is fact, money we can recover, knowledge somewhat, but time, never

[buoyant seal]

In my country prices for courses start from 500-1000 despite being poor third world country xD

[rich spade]

Where do you live in? US?

[buoyant seal]

That is why reading best o Reilly books, with good reviews at Amazon is really good learning strategy. Quite fast learning for free or cheap price of hardcover books

[rich spade]

But the teachers from this course for example, one of them works for RedHat and worked for Linux, as I know

[buoyant seal]

US is first world country.
Nah, I am originally from Russia and immigrated elsewhere

[rich spade]

Yes, there's a balance between price and quality

[rich spade]

Really? Good bro, I really appreciate meeting new cultures

[buoyant seal]

One good book could be containing more material then course pretty much.

[rich spade]

Russian culture are so crazy, I like it hahaaha

[buoyant seal]

It has good and bad parts. Recently it appeared really fast accumulating bad parts though.

[rich spade]

Yes, I knew it, because it's much more objective than videos and everything

[buoyant seal]

Well, at least Russian culture facilitated good environment for IT specialists growth. Definitely a plus.

[buoyant seal]

Do u have chosen specialty u wish to pursue? Job position/field?

[buoyant seal]

High goals. It will be a bit more tricky to lay correct learning path
I will mention relevant roadmaps later. From phone it is not comfortable

[delicate bane]

@buoyant seal
"hiring a junior vs. a senior is like the build vs. buy analogy"

"yeah, except software doesn't leave you after building it for 2 years"

heard from a podcast. how accurate is this? 💀

[near ocean]

That sounds like salty employers after their juniors ditch them for better opportunities really

Employers dont build juniors, juniors build themselves, employers just provide the tools

[rich spade]

hahahaha

[rich spade]

Bro, I am dreaming high, I want to have my own company, but until that, I focus to be and data scientist and Machine Learning, how about job titles, that one which I most can learn from all, probably any hands-on position unless management one, at least for the start

[rich spade]

Bro even if Russia and the Russians can be saw as the century world evil, that tells almost nothing about it past, everyone is trying to survive at the end

[rich spade]

Yeah, that's real

[rich spade]

hahahahahaha, It's like to talk to someone by a paper cup telephone

[spark cobalt]

I have PDFs of pretty much every CS book that ever got to printing. Some pre-releases as well. Let me know if there's a specific book you want/need.

Found that a lot of these Udemy courses fail to teach you high level understanding of concepts. They guide you through a project and say "hey you did this you can make a project on your own now!" while all you did was copy their code.

Books generally don't guise education in building a todo app in 30 different frameworks. They teach things top down.

When those Udemy/Coursera courses say "by the end of this tutorial you would have built 3 apps" it screams 🚩 but that's every fucking Udemy/Coursera course 😂

[delicate bane]

thats a better analogy imo

[buoyant seal]

it sounds like a solid experience of courses 🙂

[spark cobalt]

Unfortunately 😂

When I made the switch to books, never looked back. I just assumed they would be outdated but boy I was wrong.

I think the only course that was really insightful that I took was the Machine Learning with Andrew Ng one.

I think the psychology behind a lot of the Udemy courses is just people want to see immediate results. People wanting to build something in the framework just wants to build something immediately (i.e., all the 12 year olds who want to build a Discord bot that don't know the slightest thing about programming). Books require you to go through basic understanding, Udemy/Coursera sells itself by giving the end user a better time.

A lot of the courses end up being glorified Youtube videos.

[buoyant seal]

Anyway, my advice is next one.

1. join Discord communities regarding data science, in order to communicate and track the most necessary stuff https://github.com/mhxion/awesome-discord-communities#data-science During discussions there u will get some discovery of necessary stuff + advices
2. scan job vanacies locally and globally, approximate what they demand for your job role at Junior/Middle/Senior level. What needs to be learned
3. Correlate with roadmaps like https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-learning-roadmap-for-2021-84f2ba09a44f or with https://roadmap.sh/ if stuff is intersecting somewhere

Build your own roadmap what you all really need to know. From Math, From Software engineering, from Data science for your thing.
As far as I get u are expected to learn

Math + Some software engineering = Data Science

And it is usually expected to learn eventually machine learning from DS people, the formula is like
Data Engineering for majority + Data Science/Machine Learning itself = real Machine Learning
And software engineering + databases + Some backend/devops stuff = Data Engineering as far as I get

I build my roadmap in draw.io (there is desktop version) how to become Software Architect for example. I mention resources i need to learn, discovering what i need to learn next. Eventually my roadmap is already looking like this one https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg (It contains Backend (Yellow), Software Engineering (Green), Blue-Purple (DevOps) stuff for example)
Recommending doing the same, building your own roadmap, what you are really needed to know from all the fields, from fields Math / Data Science / Software Enginerring. Discovering best learning materials from github repositories / amazon reviewed books, and going to your goal

Make sure for some amount of theory, to have a healthy measure (no less than 50% of time) spent to practice preferably. may be 20% theory /80% practice is good too

[spark cobalt]

Jesus that roadmap is insane

[buoyant seal]

In my case self education contains going through books usually (carefully reviewed at amazon being really good / known to be good from people i appreciate as professionals / getting in one good books recommendations for other books to read to deepen my knowledge)
trying stuff first time in pet projects, practicing in them
making part of my work experience where i can

• discovering healthy bits in communications with other people often enough.
• analyzing stuff at work, and grabbing useful stuff into my pocket xD trying stuff from work in pet projects is happening too

Basically it makes pretty much independent built learning schedule for year/years ahead, and each time i learned things before that, they help me to expand what i need to learn next
essentially i need prioritizing the most necessary knowledge what to learn next. Usually it is something what i can apply immediately at work, or i needed preferably yesterday at work. Or just something i was drooling about as awesome and promising stuff

[vapid jay]

is it possible to get a job at google without a college degree?

[marsh wind]

Not as your first job likely

[vapid jay]

yeah but is it possible

or is it extremely hard

also would it pay good enough?

[marsh wind]

If you have solid industry experience, yeah

[smoky quest]

Can you pass the google interview?

[vapid jay]

will a first job without a college degree pay somewhat decent?

[smoky quest]

Also note that google is huge. It has jobs going from a cook, to very tough jobs that must require degrees. With everything in between

[vapid jay]

probably not

[smoky quest]

Then that's your answer

[vapid jay]

so they dont need a college degree for me to work as a programmer for them?

[smoky quest]

Some do, some aren't as strict

But regardless, your resume needs to grab their attention (with projects beyond the basics and comparable to someone with a degree) and you need to pass the interview

[vapid jay]

google not ordinary companies

[smoky quest]

I was referring to jobs at google

[vapid jay]

but is university worth it?

[smoky quest]

definitely

University/college is the main path. No degree or bootcamps are not equivalent and far lesser in their outcomes

[lapis wind]

In a lot of countries you dont really have a choice either way 😅

[vapid jay]

universities in my country are horrible

they will make me fail in certain subjects for no reason just to get more money out of me

[smoky quest]

So why do you worry about google?
Note also that lots of visas would be easier to obtain with a degree

[vapid jay]

oh

[vapid jay]

microsoft requires a masters degree or phd

so its pretty much the only good company that easier to get into than the rest that i know of

[smoky quest]

So it sounds like a degree would open more doors and opportunities to you 😉

[vapid jay]

my uncle is also telling me go to college if ur gonna get a career in programming in the future

[spark cobalt]

High school grad here working, answer is yes.

[vapid jay]

Im still in middle school

[smoky quest]

some countries would require a degree to get into management.
Your income, opportunities and career would suffer from a lack of degree

[spark cobalt]

It's insanely difficult to get in without a degree

[vapid jay]

what should i do if i cant pay for a good college/university

[spark cobalt]

Very few people will bother to look at you compared to the dozens of other college grads that applied to the same position.

[spark cobalt]

Depends on where you live. Community college is pretty good option for America.

[smoky quest]

then don't worry about this. For now:

• Make sure you aim for a CS degree. To that end make sure you have the grades to get in a good school
• Have fun and build things! Make discord bots, games, mobile apps, robots!

[vapid jay]

my uncle is telling me that even if im pretty good at programming they would pick someone who is worse than me but has a college degree

[spark cobalt]

That is generally true. Because those with college degree can attest that they have the capabilities to learn within a specific timeframe, while you cannot.

[smoky quest]

They wouldn't even know you exist. Jobs receive hundreds of applicants. So the best resumes will float to the top. Without a good resume/experience/education, people wouldn't even check if you are are good programmer

[spark cobalt]

No degree people are basically wild cards.

Not everyone has the money or time to invest into wild cards.

[vapid jay]

how do i get into an american univeristy if i studied outside the us

[spark cobalt]

American college is very very expensive. Especially if America passes their 10k assistance, college prices can be expected to inflate by 10k and you, as a non-citizen would be punished for it.

[vapid jay]

the subjects im taught in school are mostly in arabic this includes social studies, religion, arabic itself

[spark cobalt]

Is local not an option?

[vapid jay]

those subjects affect my grades the most here so english,math,science dont matter

[vapid jay]

they are just straight up scams

they fail people in certain subjects for no reason to get more money from them

[spark cobalt]

If money is a serious concern, maybe consider countries where colleges are affordable. The US is kind of opposite of that.

[vapid jay]

canada, western europe are there any other places

[lapis wind]

Thats cheap compared to the UK most of the time with international students 😅

[spark cobalt]

I mean 10k on top of the already expensive prices.

[spark cobalt]

Ah is it bad in the UK as well? Unfortunate.

[vapid jay]

i am not going to the uk

i wont ever step foot on that country

[spark cobalt]

Nevertheless, recursive made a good point yesterday. You'd be making 6 figures upon graduation making paying off student loans not such an issue.

[lapis wind]

2023 fees atm by the looks of it just to attend

[vapid jay]

i will get stabbed 39 times upon landing in the uk

[spark cobalt]

Jesus Christ...

[smoky quest]

sounds like preconceived notions

[clear loom]

you can land scholarships though, which may waive off the fee by quite a lot

[vapid jay]

yes

[spark cobalt]

Are there a lot of scholarships for international students?

[clear loom]

and maybe TA/GA positions if you're lucky

[smoky quest]

yep. That doesn't happen in real life

[vapid jay]

i might consider studying in germany

[lapis wind]

TBF if you're in middle school currently, I think you should probably wait before choosing where and which place to go to until closer to the time. A lot can change even in the short terms

[clear loom]

there are, not a whole lot but there certainly are, not sure about UK but from the research i did on US and CA, there are a fair few and one of my friend ended up landing a scholarship which granted 50% waiver in canada 👀

[spark cobalt]

Oh wow that's great!

[vapid jay]

maybe the us or canada could be my only options in the future because living in europe will get a lot more expensive because gas and electricity prices

[spark cobalt]

I know many people in my high school that worked as SWE interns during high school. Raking in knowledge pre-college would be pretty nice.

Many being like 1 person 😂

[clear loom]

he is also a graduate assistant so he gets paid as well 😄 landing GA/TA will need some luck and perhaps connections though

[lapis wind]

Mmm it sort of depends. But honestly can't really predict what it's gonna be like by the time you're close

[clear loom]

yeah don't sweat it this early

[vapid jay]

idk when i will go to college tho i might spend until my mid 20s

[lapis wind]

Not with the the current government in power in the UK at least 😅

[vapid jay]

my siblings didnt start attending university until 22

[spark cobalt]

Same with US. Lot of tampering done with education system.

[vapid jay]

because financial issues

mainly my school is the reason why

[spark cobalt]

If you're okay to take out student loan, then it shouldn't be an issue. You can intern throughout your college years to make a lot of it up.

[vapid jay]

my siblings applied for fafsa before going to the us

[spark cobalt]

And if you're like in the higher percentiles, I've seen new grads make like 190k TC

[clear loom]

i feel like US education is just side hustle, the main business is sports

[spark cobalt]

Super possible for you if you're starting this early.

[spark cobalt]

Everything a scam

[vapid jay]

i wont be able to apply for fafsa tho

[spark cobalt]

Why not

Oh foreign students not eligible rip, or at least most of them

[vapid jay]

fafsa is only for eligible noncitizens and citizens

[vapid jay]

I have to live in the us for 5 years and i need a green card i gotta be 18 i must have a knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of us history and government

and all of that

[spark cobalt]

I love how Americans themselves barely know their own history and government 😂

[vapid jay]

and im not sure if i will be able to go to the us

[lapis wind]

Its very similar in the UK, which is genuinely bonkers in places, although not applicable to visas for study

[vapid jay]

because my dad despises the us

because he cant speak proper english

[spark cobalt]

You have time to research. I wouldn't invest so much time now because if another COVID happens at that time, nothing will work. And 6 years from now is election year so you know America gonna be in some chaos one way or another.

[vapid jay]

wdym 6 years from now on is hte elctrion

arent us presidencies only 4 years long?

[spark cobalt]

If your solid on being SWE growing up, I'd work on growing skills now before worrying about legalities etc.

[lapis wind]

Basically the current president has at least another 2 years, then a possible additional 4 if he's re-elected IIRC.

[vapid jay]

oh

[spark cobalt]

Yes, there's an election in 2 years, and another election in 6 years.

[vapid jay]

i have my siblings who have us citizenship

[rich spade]

Bro, that's mind blowing hahaha

[vapid jay]

they can apply for me and my parents

i might try to convince my dad to send me to the us so i can continue school there

[rich spade]

Thanks very much for your effort and disposal to answer me now, that was what I really need, the truth!

[vapid jay]

but he likely wont send me there because of religious reasons

[rich spade]

Bro, thanks a lot, I am very grateful and somewhat proud from what are you doing for me, because it's my future, I need it and I want, just is it.

I have no idea for what book I'd request, so let's keep in touch that I can see that better sooner

[spark cobalt]

👍 I'd send here but pretty sure sending paid book's PDFs for free isn't allowed. 😂

Lmk anytime

[rich spade]

Man, I have some Udemy courses here, It's right like that, only copy/paste codes, so much content skipping or dodging, including if you are understanding their accent

[rich spade]

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[rich spade]

At the end, your app it's like minecraft, a copy attempt from the real world and when it works, sorry, It wasn't by your own

[smoky quest]

Interviewers don't care about the nature of your app or if it's a clone.
What matters is that you are the one who wrote it without just blindly copy/pasting and the demonstrated skills

[rich spade]

omg lol hahahaah

[rich spade]

kkkkkkkkkkk

[rich spade]

No problem, see ya

[rich spade]

I meant that just copy/paste don't get you anywhere, you need to learn how it's works first

[smoky quest]

indeed!

[neat ingot]

hey yall, is anyone here in a role where they're responsible for a codebase of mostly ETL pipelines that's comparable to ~12k LOC across ~34 modules?

the mostly ETL pipelines part isn't super important or necessary... just mainly thinking about project size

I'm curious if you're willing to share what your title and salary bracket is, and whether you're working solo or on a team

I currently manage a codebase like this in my role, but my title does not reflect what I actually do, and I have a huge opportunity to move into a much higher paying role soon mainly because of this codebase. So I'm looking for some tips/advice/general info

[gritty rivet]

A lot of Data Engineering roles focus on ETL pipelines.

There's a career channel on the Data Engineering Discord server, you might try there.

Pay is going to vary wildly by country, YoE, type of company etc. but is basically similar to other kinds of SWE roles. So rather than looking for anecdotes I would look for data (levels.io, Glassdoor etc.)

[neat ingot]

thanks @gritty rivet , do you have a link to that discord or their site (where I can find the link)?

[gritty rivet]

I would either check Disboard or r/dataengineering (on Reddit)

[neat ingot]

ok will do, thanks

[weak halo]

so i am a high school student and i wanted to ask what is a hands on type job that involves things like coding and such

i am not sure as it would be good to review my choices earlier than later in life

[gritty rivet]

Extremely rare. Focus on your own coding projects and getting into a good university. It's very unlikely to get work experience in software as a highschool student

[winged umbra]

I have this dilemma to choose between CS and SE, I’ve heard the main difference is the practical of Software Engineering in coding which is my main focus. The big difference for me is the 3 year CS degree unlike the 4 years in SE.

[weak halo]

i mean in year 10 before mocks we get to work experience for a week

but do you think apprenticeship would be better than collage

[spark cobalt]

Most accessible would be something like a coding tutor. I've seen cases in my high school where people were able to intern as high schooler, but a lot of them committed to programming as early as 6th grade and also had direct connections in family.

[gritty rivet]

A degree is usually a very worthwhile investment

[vapid jay]

I thought degree is not required to work as a programmer

[gritty rivet]

There are self-taught programmers but that is not the norm by any means

[peak halo]

depends on what kind of programming job. some companies will just throw away resumes from people who don't have one.

[gritty rivet]

I've never heard of a three year CS degree. And the names CS vs SE really don't tell you much. You need to look at the specific programs and their outcomes. Find recent alums on LinkedIn and see how they're doing

[peak halo]

please send that to @severe widget, not channels

[winged umbra]

Very true. About the three year CS degree, thats how it is in my country at least

[weak halo]

thanks

[weak halo]

thanks

[spark cobalt]

Not required, but significantly harder.

I did that route as well and working rn. But the thing is just like, while someone sends 15 application a week, I send 200 and I still get lower response rate.

Passing the first resume screening phase without a degree is ridiculously difficult when there are a dozen other people with a degree applying for the same job.

It's like even 2 weeks after getting the job and no more applying, I'm still getting 10 denials everyday. 😂

What's more accurate is saying "A CS degree is not required to work as a programmer." But not a CS degree is not the same as no degree. Degrees in related fields are still massive. I know a few math majors who work in DS now.

[rain glacier]

how early is too early to apply for new grad roles?

i've gotten a few interviews, but a lot of recruiters have reached back out to me (a pleasant surprise) saying that they recruit for new grads a little later

[ionic copper]

Just started my CS program after changing majors for the second time

[buoyant seal]

how long is left for you to study in uni?

[ionic copper]

Also, hi everyone.

[rain glacier]

graduating in june 2023

ideally i'd like to work during the last few months of school (very light courseload), but yeah farther outlook is june

[white relic]

it's a bit early yeah

[buoyant seal]

shrugs. Each company has probably its own mechanism. I could expect they will be way more willing to hire u when u are fully graduated, because.... Full time present employee is usually way more effective.

If they have some training before that u could go through.. they will be distracting u from your university study load.

[white relic]

depends on the industry, but 8 months is pretty long as lead time goes

for my first job I interviewed in November and started in February

and that wasn't especially fast

[rain glacier]

gotcha, yeah I figured i'm putting a little too much into this search this early, but at least i've gotten interview experience from it

thank you both

[vapid jay]

Working rn? You are registered nurse who became late programmer?

[true harness]

"right now"

[delicate bane]

this happens more often than you think funny enough

[cold geyser]

did someone report me spamming?

do you hate rick astley?

[peak halo]

No, I saw it. If you have an issue, please DM @severe widget

But if you were looking for a shitposting server, this isn't the one.

[spark cobalt]

High school grad working as software engineer lol.

Poggers? Idk. We'll have to see

Social experiment numero uno 🥳

[woeful spruce]

I like him, ngl

[dim flame]

Hey guys I was just wondering if you can be a software engineer with the IT route or would you need to do computer science instead?

[smoky quest]

the IT route lead to IT related jobs.
CS route leads to CS related jobs

One can jump from one side to the other, but the further the distance, the more difficult the jump. Which leads to the question: if you want to be a software engineer why not using the most straightforward route?

[tired stone]

do you only need to do a course like cs50 and then move on to the career options or you have to do other ones to be a pro in python and then start going for career opions

[smoky quest]

Not to sound too condescending, but it's like asking if you can be a chef at a 5 star restaurant by learning to cook pasta

cs50 is an introduction

[smoky quest]

If you are in high school or college age, the main path is through a CS degree. That's the path that will lead to the most successful career in that area.
Barring that, you will still be able to find some job, but the path will be completely different and not at the same level

[tired stone]

right now I just want to learn python what should I do

[smoky quest]

What are you expecting as an answer besides learning python?

What's your situation?

[tired stone]

I am in school and am interested in learning python

[smoky quest]

great!
My recommendation is:

• Aim for a CS degree and the grades to get in a good school
• Have fun and build things. Make games, robots, mobile apps and backends and frontends

And yes, learning python is awesome!

[dim flame]

@smoky quest so is a software engineer the CS route ?

[smoky quest]

yes

[dim flame]

I’m currently in high school atm grade 12. I wanted to be a software engineer but I’m not really good in maths

I’m very skilled in IT and got an 95 average but I’m trying to get into computer science instead as my goal has always been with coding

Even tho I’m skilled in IT, I’m not really interested in the hardware or networking part of IT

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't worry too much about it for two reasons:

• It's not as bad as you think
• Math after high school are a lot more fun and interesting. They are directly applicable and less about memorizing random formulas. So that makes them way more interesting

[dim flame]

I have a 60 average in maths atm and I’m planning to retake my maths class in order to boost my grades so I can apply for an university for computer science

I’m just worried if maths would make me want to drop out in university

Instead of dropping out ig IT would be a safe route but then again, won’t lead me to my coding career 😦

@smoky quest since you seem pretty smart… do you know if it’s possible to do coding jobs with IT? Or would it mostly fall under computer science

[spark cobalt]

A lot of computer science utilizes math oriented logic.

[dim flame]

So for someone that struggles and ends up with a 60 …. Is your advice not to take CS

[smoky quest]

IT jobs are about managing infrastructures and not coding

[smoky quest]

If you are setting your mind for failure, then yes, you already have failed

[dim flame]

Is there like any other degree other than CS which is more coding or software based than theory and maths

[spark cobalt]

I'm moreso saying the thought process is similar to thought process in math. Have you done coding before, self taught?

[smoky quest]

You can't run from your fears.
It's far simpler and better for you to face them

If you think you will fail, then you will fail. It's entirely up to you

[dim flame]

Yeah it’s just that there’s a lot of time and money on the line

[smoky quest]

Yeah, and companies are paying top dollars for great employees.
People who skip on the skills like math, aren't as valuable

[dim flame]

It’s almost as if I’m gambling my future. The IT route is safe as I know I can do extremely well in it and it doesn’t require much maths

[spark cobalt]

You're spending a lot of time no matter what. It takes time to develop any skill.

[smoky quest]

IT doesn't pay as much as CS though

[dim flame]

I don’t have any coding experience but I am learning through Udemy and code academy

[spark cobalt]

For example, for me to land a CS job right out of high school. It took 2 consecutive years of 10 hour commitment everyday (literally neglecting all of high school to just focus on coding), rejection from like 3000 companies, to get to this point.

[dim flame]

Yeah but what are the chances of me graduating with CS , you need to be good in problem solving and stuff right

[spark cobalt]

There's no escape to the time commitment you have to make to learn.

[dim flame]

Were you decent in maths back in high school

[spark cobalt]

It takes time. You are quantifying your skills from no time.

[spark cobalt]

Yes. One of the top of my class. But I worked extremely hard for it.

[smoky quest]

I don't know you and can't comment on that.
And it's all in your mind. If you think you will fail, then I guarantee you that you will fail.

I am just pointing at the different trade offs and choices.
If you think that the most you can achieve is IT and CS is too complicated for you, then IT seems a safe choice by all means

[spark cobalt]

You never know if you're up to CS if you don't ever try. I'm definitely sure there's people that are bad at math, but profoundly good at computer science. (For example, a huge mathematical barrier for younger students is overcoming the math "language")

[smoky quest]

If you aren't up to the challenge of CS, then IT would indeed appear quite appealing

[dim flame]

There’s plenty of resources available on the internet right? Like wouldn’t most undergrad CS courses be same ?

With an computer science degree you can always get into the IT jobs but with an IT degree you can’t really get into any computer science jobs right? I heard with CS you can pretty do anything

[smoky quest]

that is correct

[spark cobalt]

Well there's so much in the field you quite literally cannot do anything and everything. Eventually have to boil down to specialize in a few topics.

New things come everyday faster than you can learn them.

[dim flame]

Do you think I should do both ?

[smoky quest]

you are already afraid of CS. What makes you think you could handle both?

[dim flame]

Like a 2 year IT diploma then computer science?

[spark cobalt]

What grade are you?

[dim flame]

Grade 12

[spark cobalt]

You register for your classes in like 8 months or so no?

[dim flame]

Kept failing maths in 11th grade. Sitting at a 60 average in grade 12 maths by putting in a lot effort by waking up at 5 am to study and stuff

[spark cobalt]

Why not just try doing CS instead of giving up beforehand?

[dim flame]

Thing about trying is… it’s like $20k a year in my country

[spark cobalt]

I mean like self taught.

[smoky quest]

which country?

[dim flame]

Canada

[smoky quest]

how come it's more expensive than the USA?

[dim flame]

I’m talking in CAD sry

[smoky quest]

how come it's as expensive as california?

[spark cobalt]

New grads make 6 figures easily. Top percentile people making close to 190k TC

[dim flame]

Well that’s the average in Canada for a CS

[smoky quest]

to be clear 190k TC would not happen on the first year

[dim flame]

IT is only $12k CAD a year

[spark cobalt]

4 years, internship then getting return offer at like a big company ^

[smoky quest]

look at it as an investment, not a cost. The salaries will also be different

[dim flame]

In Canada you can’t even go to a university for IT. Only colleges and polytechnics have IT

[smoky quest]

We pay our interns 130k though 😉

[spark cobalt]

😍

[dim flame]

How do you learn CS self taught tho? I know how you can learn coding languages on your own but what about the maths

[spark cobalt]

I crammed high school math in middle school and crammed college math in high school.

Perks of living in Asian household with a near genius dad 😩

[dim flame]

And since I’m Indian, my parents would consider me as a disgrace if I end up in a college instead of uni

[smoky quest]

I think you need to work on your block on math first. It won't end well for you until you work through your block or fear of math. Any good job or career will require math

[dim flame]

Yeah to work on my maths I plan to retake grade 12

[smoky quest]

And don't go in things thinking you will fail. That's a guaranteed way to make sure you will indeed fail

[dim flame]

I have like an 85 average in Chem and phys so I wouldn’t need to retake that. I have an 95 in IT…. It’s just maths I’m struggling with

[spark cobalt]

I think what you're lacking is perspective.

You clearly spent the time, but you're looking at it in the wrong way. Whether that be misguided in earlier years, etc.

No such thing as being bad at math

[dim flame]

Like I’m putting in so much effort just to get a 60 In maths. I have no social life, I don’t game anymore… i just study maths pretty much

What worries me is, if I struggle in maths in high school I’ll probably struggle in university as the jump is even bigger

[smoky quest]

That's worth investigating.
If you are putting an unparalleled amount of effort for little results, maybe the method needs to be tweaked

[dim flame]

Yeah ig you do have a point there

Are you guys computer CS grads?

[spark cobalt]

Perhaps spend time with someone that can help you. Request extra time with a teacher to just run through the logics slowly.

[smoky quest]

not anymore

[dim flame]

Dropped out?

[smoky quest]

no, graduated a long time ago

[spark cobalt]

Nah I work in CS as high school grad

[dim flame]

Oh so like an internship?

[spark cobalt]

Had COVID for Junior year so pretty much spent everyday all day programming. Lot of time from COVID 😍

[dim flame]

Was the journey hard for you

[spark cobalt]

Yeah then onboarding. I think internship might cut short...

[smoky quest]

it's hard work, but it's worth it

[spark cobalt]

The journey is hard no matter what.

[dim flame]

What would you say is the best resource to learn to code ? There’s so many out there and I just don’t know which one is enough

Udemy and code academy seems too basic

[spark cobalt]

Answer to that depends on like 50 different variables. What do you want to learn? What do you want to be able to do in a year? Yada yada

[smoky quest]

if you are in high school, you could learn tons by just making games like in godot for instance. Do what's fun to you!

[dim flame]

Does GitHub play a huge role in the coding industry? Is that something I should be working on

[spark cobalt]

I started getting into programming by first scripting Pokemon ROM hacks and then moving on to coding Discord bots.

[dim flame]

Currently I’m building my LinkedIn page 💀

[smoky quest]

it's just a tool. It's popular, but I wouldn't let it define what to study

[dim flame]

What I meant was…is it like a portfolio every coder would need to show projects and stuff

[spark cobalt]

@smoky quest Do you check people's Github? I heard you say you don't read cover letters at all, but what about GH?

All my interviews just went off of projects on resume and didn't question anything on my GH. So idk if it's checked or not.

[dim flame]

@smoky quest since you already graduated, do you even use the math you have learned towards your job ?

[smoky quest]

• For interns, I do read cover letter. Sometimes it makes or break it
• For applicants, I won't check their github on the first pass. I may on later passes
• For applicants, I may skim over the cover letter but won't spend too much time on it. in 99% of the cases it's copy/pasted and frequently I even get cover letter without the company names being replaced

[smoky quest]

yep! That's very useful

[spark cobalt]

Thanks! ♥️

[dim flame]

I feel CS should be more software or programming oriented instead of more maths oriented

[smoky quest]

There are jobs like that. But that's the type of jobs for code monkeys where bootcamps are sufficient. The jobs aren't as well paid

[spark cobalt]

If CS removed all its hard parts and was easy, then everyone would be doing CS and CS wouldn't pay so much.

[dim flame]

What are the chances of me landing a coding job with an IT degree but some knowledge about coding through self taught resources?

I heard many get hired as a software engineer without having any degrees at all or is that some risky move which I shouldn’t go for

[smoky quest]

Everything is possible, but not everything is plausible

You are just trying to find your way around it. There is no shortcut.

[spark cobalt]

Even if you don't do a degree, you still have to commit the same (and often significantly more) time as you would if you did do a degree.

[dim flame]

For CS is it mostly python that you would be learning?

[spark cobalt]

During my senior year I spent 10 hours everyday programming. Including 6 hours of school, and extracurriculars that I did (marching band.)

There's no escaping the time commitment.

[smoky quest]

CS would teach you multiple languages and programming paradigms, among many other things

[spark cobalt]

Python is just a means to complete a task. Depending on the task, you use different means to achieve them.

[dim flame]

Just wanted a head start before university so would you recommend me to learn python,html and JavaScript or would you prefer other languages

[spark cobalt]

What do you want to do?

[smoky quest]

You just need to start somewhere. It doesn't matter where

[dim flame]

So like did u even have the time to game and stuff

[spark cobalt]

0 games, 0 anime, 0 nothing. School time was used to catch up on sleep.

[dim flame]

Your Asian right

[spark cobalt]

Yes. Chinese.

[smoky quest]

that sounds racist

[dim flame]

Im sorry, my bad

[spark cobalt]

Nah I said I was Asian earlier.

[dim flame]

I’m Asian , Indian

I get the belt if I don’t do well at school.

[spark cobalt]

I know what question you're asking. But no, my parents, while immigrated from China, got heavily assimilated to the American "land of the free, this is the place to follow your dreams." While they wanted me to go to college, they still supported this path of not doing college as well.

[smoky quest]

And to add to it, I know non-asians friends who also got the belt when they didn't do well at school

[dim flame]

Oh that’s amazing that you have supportive parents

[spark cobalt]

Your parents are supportive as well. They have a different idea of how to support.

[dim flame]

My parents are kinda supportive but if I get into IT instead of CS I’m just a shame towards the family

[spark cobalt]

There's drawbacks to my parent's support as well. What if I didn't follow up on my personal endeavors? What if I quit? There's a lot at stake.

I'm risking a safe future to just play the system per se.

[smoky quest]

yeah, you are lucky tbh

[dim flame]

What like motivated you to go forward? How did you guys continue to work hard

[spark cobalt]

I am. My dad phrased my job spamming as "waiting for someone to make a mistake" 😂

[dim flame]

It’s not easy to cut the anime,social life, gaming etc

[smoky quest]

because it's fun.
The math you learn about college are about how to do encryption, code correction (like if you scratch a disk), or compression. It's really cool stuff grounded in actual problems

[dim flame]

Honestly I’m kinda just focoused in school cuz of my parents ig that’s good in some way

[spark cobalt]

Couple of things:

• I got into programming by providing a level of automation to communities I was in. It pushed me forward to aspire to be someone to give that to others. The sense of a goal to make ends meet kept me driven. Allowed me to persevere through errors for days and once, weeks.
• I love solving problems.
• Strong personal ideology. I wanted to live a life that I set out for myself. Over and over in my life I have fought to do things in a way I believed was best for me.

[dim flame]

All my math courses are advanced. When I checked university requirements in my country, CS needed everything advanced

Don’t even know why they need chemistry

Where are you using chemistry for CS

Also does the name of your degree matter ? Like can I get a bachelors of science which has a computer science course ? Does that count as a CS degree

[smoky quest]

It depends if it is a BS in CS or not

[spark cobalt]

I grew up in like 80% Asian community and the single thing I hated about this whole Asian parent stigma is the essence of there's no personal aspirations. Pushing to prove everyone wrong was (good or bad) something as well that kept me driven

After getting job offer told my mom to make a WeChat and fucking show off to the other parents. I hated the system that much 😂

[pulsar drum]

You're most likely not (though there are fields that do), but it just teaches you to think in a certain way that I think is not only helpful for programming but for life in general.

[dim flame]

Bro idk why…they always just compare

[spark cobalt]

@smoky quest Btw have you studied physics? I've been tempted to add on Feymann's lectures into my readings.

Right now I have Economics from Tom Sowell, and Will Durant's history series.

[smoky quest]

I had a strong set in electronic/electric, but not pure physics

[spark cobalt]

Icic.

[smoky quest]

yeah that's awesome!
Give it a try and you will see it's fun and you will ace it

[spark cobalt]

Don't let numbers define you. I've never had a 4.0, managed to fail a class pretty much every year. By my grades alone you could've said I was gonna come out as a loser.

Just keep fighting on, trust the path and the process you set yourself on. You got this! 🥳

[smoky quest]

don't let fears guide your choices

[spark cobalt]

If you want some shitty irony, sophomore year I took a Java class and ended with a 13%. Senior year I took AP CS and ended with like a 62.

[smoky quest]

Yeah, these things don't mean shit. Don't let them stop you

[stoic drift]

this is why some places offer degrees both in compsci and software engineering

[ancient aspen]

I personally think math is very important in computer science and software engineering

[ancient aspen]

Chemistry is actually very useful in comp sci! Any good comp sci and every reputable expert has extolled its benefits to be included into that curriculum

I am actually getting a minor in chemistry and physics also, theyre both incredibly beneficial to the degree and super fun to learn!

Probably some of my easiest classes also

Physical chemistry I and polymer chemistry are so amazing to learn about

[brave matrix]

let me guess, youre white

[worthy trench]

Hi, I want to get into learning python. any suggestions on where or how to start?

[vapid jay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHEtdqhLK8

[worthy trench]

Thank you

[vapid jay]

we are in class 6 and started coding last year , we are indian too and have learned some python

we are twins

https://youtu.be/yC9SknGE4Q0

this is our channel link

[vapid jay]

Bro what

12 hours 😂

yoooo

guys

how do you think about our website

https://youtu.be/770RbUdRFrE

[analog sun]

Hello, please respect the channel topic and rule 6 regarding unapproved advertising

[white relic]

That's a question you can only answer for yourself. How much does salary matter? Does it balance out other factors like where you want to live and what kind of job you want to do? When you're just graduated you have limited options, but they start to open up after a few years of experience

[vapid jay]

Im 19 also no skill 🤡

[buoyant seal]

Well, at least u a all young. U have very legit excuse for being not experienced yet 🙂

[vapid jay]

excuse is a lie keep learning

[spark cobalt]

Try taking on internships!

[velvet owl]

How was it?

How do you guys manage first months, job overload project and new framework and tools with deadlines .?

[slow crescent]

I think the best way of doing internship, is just make some friends with your co-worker, to help you out.

[spark cobalt]

Mentor

Company knows you don't know anything. Generally not just gonna throw you in the water.

[balmy spade]

This sounds like a hot take but here we go; As an intern you should not have project responsibility in the company.

You are there to learn. You are not there to be the needed third dev on a two dev project that should have been a six dev project. You aren't there to fill in the requirement requests of the team. You are there in addition to the requirement requests.

Where I work folks like to throw the term "intern projects" around. It's anything we can have an intern do that meets three requirements:

• It cannot be mission critical or a roadblock for active feature work
• It cannot interfere with the intern team member's scheduled intern events (shadowing, interviews, meetings, etc)
• It must relate to the team's overall work in a way that the intern team member can learn deeper knowledge of our processes while completing it.

I'm curious how other companies approach interns.

[analog sun]

"I need this task done but it is tedious and time consuming and does not critically impact a running process"

[digital fjord]

I mostly just get assigned tickets as anyone else, but it's mostly the low-priority, longer term, pretty interesting ones, and I am expected to be asking a lot of questions.

[balmy spade]

Nice! That's how my internship on a tier 2 went. I took tickets, though I was limited to what I could grab mostly due to access permissions. I'd work the ticket, ask a million questions, and have a great time.

When that one task that needed four hours of tedious work came up, that was mine too.

Never really felt separated from the team but it was clear that I wasn't a full-time yet.

[slow crescent]

it depend what your goal is for your internship, some people like challenges, some don't, so given them the right amount of work to help them out for their later career.

[graceful mason]

For my company they started me off with a few small tickets and then let me choose whatever I wanted to do next - basically letting me do whatever I felt I was capable of
Within a few months I was working independently (other than the fact we're very collaborative so I'm talking with lots of people from different teams) and representing our department in critical investigations spanning multiple teams
I don't see the value of massively limiting an intern's responsibilities, they're potentially going to be working for you in a year

[slow crescent]

I'm agree with you.

the best way is just talk with your supervisor, if it is too little, get more work, if it is too much, than get some less.

[balmy spade]

It sounds like yours was a natural build of motivation and trust within the team which is great. I agree that being an intern should not limit you. I also refuse to let an intern blindly take on something that is mission critical or time sensitive.

If we get there in our teamwork over a few weeks, absolutely.

[slow crescent]

what do you mean by mission critical or time sensitive. lot of work is predicable how much time you need to get work done, and when it is mission critical, you'll never let one person do the job!

[balmy spade]

Mission critical is broadly defined where I work as anything that will stop the deliverable at any time of the feature.

Time sensitive are crunch deadlines. We avoid them like the plague but they can happen. No intern works off hours. Not true for full-time team members.

It's never one person, yes. We are a team. It is one person's code though. Or one person's deployment of infra. Or one person's initial draft of the business value statement.

[slow crescent]

ok, crunch deadlines, is no good for any one, i thinks, even an expert may mis the deadline.

if it can't be done within the deadline, then problem self, maybe questionable!

[balmy spade]

No disagreement here. We aren't perfect though and there's always the chance we miss or underestimate something.

[slow crescent]

some company want some safety measure it is ok, but failure is the part of the growth, so let the interns fault, they'll be better off in the future.

but never let them do the work which may worth a millien or so!

[balmy spade]

Solid point. Failure is learning.

We're into the case by case of the particular intern. Failure is always an option. As a leader, a senior, and a teammate I would like to control the type of project you have a chance to fail on. Actually not exclusively because of the project itself but also because I need to learn how you handle failure.
Failure can destroy a person, large or small. Difficult enough to learn how to handle failure. No need to learn that lesson on a project that costs the company millions when prod goes down for thirty minutes.

Tricky, now that I think about it. How to let them fly but still do what can be done to ensure they will try again if they fall.

[slow crescent]

there are so many ways to get you to your destiny, so why bother you to think so much, so just try, some may succeed some may fall. real world problem are more complicate than on paper, so you'll see.

[dreamy shadow]

Convert our python 2.X code to 3.X code.

[balmy spade]

If you are you serious, what types of constraints are on the work if any? It would certainly fit in the tedious category as well as the non-impacting as I assume production is up and running while this happens. (just not sure if serious or a py2 meme)

[dreamy shadow]

Unfortunately, I'm completely serious. It was a CS intern position at a start-up. I think it was more of some back logged files that was converted. I joined a little after so I wasn't made aware of the exact scope of the changes/constraints. It was 100% tedious and definitely not close to production.

I had interviewed for an intern position too, but lucky for me I got thrown into the "Data science intern" position since I wasn't able to differentiate a list and set at the time.

[balmy spade]

A curious task. I wouldn't be against an intern taking something on of that nature. As said, production is shielded from it. It's tedious work with no hard time-line so the intern can perform at their pace and still attend to everything else. It would also give them a lot of experience. Neat.

[vapid jay]

As a computer science student, what projects can I do that would help me land a marketing/business development/analyst internship? (ping when replying)

[spark cobalt]

That's a wide range of internships you're looking at.

[hallow remnant]

maybe this
https://www.freecodecamp.org/learn/data-analysis-with-python/#data-analysis-with-python-course

[hybrid obsidian]

Kivy?

[dreamy shadow]

[delicate bane]

oops HR system sent out the application before it was filled out from the hiring manager

[ivory sluice]

130,000 associates

and The Five Principles

very interesting

[true harness]

130k like minded individuals sounds like some dystopian YA novel

[buoyant seal]

https://youtu.be/ag2juFF4Y0Y Join faction Dauntless 🙂

[exotic wasp]

What are the most common python job?

[spark cobalt]

Search in your local area maybe

[vapid jay]

If I want to get into computer science once I finish high school (I'm in my first year of a 3 year programme), what languages should I learn and in what order?

[buoyant seal]

backend dev
QA
data satanist (Data analyst / Data scientist / ML)

[exotic wasp]

I like being a satanist, whats qa and backend dev

[buoyant seal]

QA = tester to web dev. https://roadmap.sh/qa
testing usually frontend applications, writing end to tend testing to them

[buoyant seal]

backend dev = software engineer in web development, writing server side of web applications.
Usually writing application running on Linux servers, which input/output in JSON format as REST APIs (but other variations are present)
Usually his code deals with SQL databases, or NoSQL databases.
often present some message queue stuff to distribute workload across servers

End result of his work is usually served to web sites done by frontend developers / or to mobile applications / or to desktop application
Common beginner guides usually suggest writing your small blog web site 🙂
https://roadmap.sh/backend this map shows it better

[buoyant seal]

well, considering that i am backend dev as well, i also draw some roadmap of stuff to learn regarding Backend + Devops and eventually growing into Software Architect
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
Green skills are generic Software Engineering that should be known, Yellow is backend related stuff, Pink-Purple is python related stuff to explore

And u can be sure other paths aren't that small too. Well at least data satanist stuff is deep

QA is the most simple out of this trio, but at the same time having its own tricky caveats

[gritty rivet]

It doesn't matter. Learn what you want, but also focus on getting good grades and stuff like that

[dreamy shadow]

Pls no. Don't send more data scientists. Field is full

[buoyant seal]

scientists satanists.

[dreamy shadow]

Honestly, CS field's more clear cut on roles. Data science is more like. Data analyst? Naw, you data scientist. ML engineering? Naw, you data scientist too. BI analyst? Naw, you data scientista.

[buoyant seal]

Technically almost majority of CS roles are joined under Software Engineer flag.

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, but job description wise it's generally more specific. XYZ stack, or XYZ technology.

Data Scientist job description is literally: "Help business create impact"

[buoyant seal]

well... that reminds me about similar situation in DevOps engineer roles
they are super different in specializations... but they are all called DevOps engineers xD

[dreamy shadow]

What does that even MEAN? CREATE IMPACT?

[buoyant seal]

🎶 Neon Genesis Evangelion OST music 🎶

[buoyant seal]

https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic2_software_engineer.html
Technically this impact is kind of described here
including even having article, what is impact? https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/what_is_impact.html

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, all written out for SE. Jack squat for DS.

[buoyant seal]

And technically they are correct in asking it, even if they could be not always understanding it
we need to solve business problems, not technical problems. Different aim in goals leads to different results

[dreamy shadow]

Also, DS interviews are like: "How many 4s are in 1-1000" to like "Describe Gaussian"

Business problems are fake news, business don't even know what they want.

[smoky quest]

that applies to DS. It's pretty generic

[buoyant seal]

read from their MLE section if u want ;b
https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic1_machine_learning_engineer.html

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, was just reading the MLE

[idle sleet]

Question:

What career / job suits me best?

I've always been into technology. 🤖

I don't know how to phrase my thought, but I would try this:
I've never encountered a problem I couldn't solve.

◉ I love finding solutions to any problem. And the feeling I get when I solve a problem is priceless.
◉ I am very interested in the future of our population, planet Earth and the universe.

And that's why my career should be linked to topics such as:
⋄ Environment 🌪️, Nature ☘️
⋄ Earth 🌍 , Space 🪐

I would like to work in one of the following areas:
⋄ Artificial intelligence (AI)
⋄ Robotics
⋄ Cybernetics

Do you have any idea what career / job connects these themes?

[buoyant seal]

i am pretty sure it is part of generic Software Engineering education somewhere
This book begins as an intro and i think recommending other books to learn at least
(Technically impact is not described there, but u know as consequence)

Oh right, i actually remembered book about where impact is described the best

[dreamy shadow]

I only got to Data structures II (or was it I) in my undergrad (Stats major).

[buoyant seal]

https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Project-DevOps-Helping-Business/dp/0988262592
A holy Grail of DevOps engineers, recommending to read
It shows transformation of... IT team from doing different shit into.. being productive

it is really fun literally novel

[dreamy shadow]

I probably need to decide soon what I want to specialize in for DS

[peak halo]

what's your current status? CS undergrad?

[dreamy shadow]

Stats undergrad, 2 & 8 months ish YoE. Worked as a DS at a start up & ML Analyst (automating models type work) at a fortune 200.

Applying to some grad schools atm for the credentials.

[buoyant seal]

i think impact should be pretty well described somewhre in Software Requirements book
I mean in order to make impact, we need to identify requirements what we wish to build first, aren't we
What is really needed being done

i mean that from the point of view, how to identify one problem that serves as bottleneck for hundreds of stuff

making greatest impact from solving just one problem, then being productive and solving 30 tasks per day

i haven't read the book yet, but i suspect it should be having something along those lines

[idle sleet]

Question:

What career / job suits me best?

I've always been into technology. 🤖

I don't know how to phrase my thought, but I would try this:
I've never encountered a problem I couldn't solve.

◉ I love finding solutions to any problem. And the feeling I get when I solve a problem is priceless.
◉ I am very interested in the future of our population, planet Earth and the universe.

And that's why my career should be linked to topics such as:
⋄ Environment 🌪️, Nature ☘️
⋄ Earth 🌍 , Space 🪐

I would like to work in one of the following areas:
⋄ Artificial intelligence (AI)
⋄ Robotics
⋄ Cybernetics

Do you have any idea what career / job connects these themes?

[buoyant seal]

generic Software Engineering education connects them all for sure 🙂

education of SWE (Software Engineer) is leading to person, digging for real problem that needs to be solved adjusting stuff to what clients needs
And then seeking best technical solution/instruments/language to solve the task
Coding is just latest most... simpliest stage to implement it once everything is planned

[buoyant seal]

i would say that in your case, all your areas are also requiring Math / Physics stuff, which is part of Computer Science degree as well

[buoyant seal]

Robotics/Cybernetics are usually called Embedded developers if to approach it to hardware as close as possible from Software Engineering side
Probably there are some additional role from more hardware point of view

Artificial Intelligence at the moment assumes going Data Science way/Neural network stuff (Higher Math + Software Engineering)
Or more like probably Data engineering + Data Science + Machine Learning

[idle sleet]

Yeah, I quite really like Math.
And for the software engineering. I think that's not for me

[buoyant seal]

Software Engineering is usually present in small capacity for Data Analysis/Data Scientists as long as they don't go into Machine Learning/AI

[idle sleet]

Wait, is software engineering also about design?

[buoyant seal]

As far as i got, Machine Learning is technically small amount of problem SWE too, but the problem is that ML leads to need of data engineering (acquiring/processing/refining data for ML)

[idle sleet]

wait a sec, I'll send you my naive idea

[buoyant seal]

At junior level SWE is just coding => ic1 swe https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic1_software_engineer.html
as middle level, SWE is already grasping idea to make analysis and design, majorly researching what needs to be done and only after that coding https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic2_software_engineer.html
at senior level, SWE can be still doing same, or can be actually already coding less and more organizing team work, too many different specializations what can be done to be honest. There are people like System Analysis and other kind of Analysts, who more design and only draw diagrams than code, but they problem is.. .they are supposed to have former coding experience before diving into this
https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/ic3_software_engineer.html

[idle sleet]

I would love to work in some kind of a research laboratory with computers and the latest technology. Exploring data, creating artificial intelligence (automation, robots), etc. I would imagine that this work would be focused on a topic either space or some natural problems, global warming, ... I would like to contribute and help at least some minimal part in the progress of humanity in terms of some discoveries, etc... I want to leave a little something in the world, to achieve something.

(again, it is probably really naive)

and I would like to have some type kind of this workspace

I must sound like an idiot. 🤦

[buoyant seal]

i know only software engineering part of it.
Anyway, i will presume u can't model stuff without math/physics and having at least some software engineering skill set to provide calculations and diagrams

[idle sleet]

I'm also more into Hardware stuff than software.

[buoyant seal]

and if u want to implement robotics/cybernetics, it is work of embedded software engineer to program it is working
unless u are some kind of more hardware specialist, who will build the machine itself

i don't think there is clear separation between those roles though too much. Highly likely embedded devs are espected directly building their hardware prototypes as wlel.
Anyway u should ask embedded devs about it.

#microcontrollers we kind of having some embedded section here

[buoyant seal]

Arduino word is usually often sounding along side of it. I am too far from this topic

[buoyant seal]

i know only that Hardware related devs are usually required to know C/C++ language
partiall something is possible to be done with MicroPython/or C#, but usually C/C++ is expected to be known

highly likely Assemble stuff is known for them too

[idle sleet]

alright, thanks!

[buoyant seal]

https://github.com/mhxion/awesome-discord-communities#microprocessors-and-microcontrollers here is list of servers for developers working with hardware (scan #embedded/#hardware words)
https://github.com/mhxion/awesome-discord-communities#machine-learning and here guys working with AI, but technically it should not be problem to ask ML stuff here too in #data-science-and-ml probably. Python is too tied to ML at the moment

[buoyant seal]

literally robotics channels even present

electrical/mechanical/power-engineering are somehow tied to this

[graceful mason]

This probably just comes under robotics/mechatronics, although they will usually require some degree of low-level (C or lower) software knowledge

If you don't want any software there are roles like mechanical design, who will produce the CAD for robotic systems

[dreamy shadow]

Maybe look into CE (Computer Engineering)

[frank apex]

Hello, I've been wanting to learn python for a really long time but I have no idea where to start. Any tips on what the best way to learn python is and how I should practice? (Is this even the right channel for this lol)

[peak halo]

this is the career discussion channel. are you looking to learn python so you can become a professional user of Python?

[frank apex]

I am planning on making a coding career out of this since I really like coding. I heard a lot about python and I think it's a must need. At the moment I'm more familiar with game development programming.

[peak halo]

so, one doesn't really get a programming job because they know a certain amount of some number of languages. if you're interested in becoming a professional game developer, there are Python libraries like arcade and pygame, but I think most game development is done with frameworks that don't have Python APIs, like Unity in C#.

[frank apex]

Yep, but I'm not really sure if I want to go in the game development direction (With C#, C++, Lua etc..) or the web development, software developer or data analysis direction (With python, html, javascript and css).

So I thought that maybe if I learn python I could maybe discover what I enjoy more and then go with that.

But I have no idea where to start.

[peak halo]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[peak halo]

You can look here, I suppose

[frank apex]

Thank you, I'll take a look!

I just noticed how similar Python is to lua lol

[spark cobalt]

I've never encountered a problem I couldn't solve.

I hope you never say this in any sort of interview setting or company setting.

Perhaps it's better to say you're super motivated to solve problems.

But if you're just getting into the field, expect that a lot of problems you encounter will need assistance from someone else (you can technically spend your entire internship/long stretch of time solving 1 problem, but it's not cost effective for you nor the employer.)

[balmy spade]

What is the negative of saying that you've never let a problem stop you? That you've always solved the problem.

[spark cobalt]

I think it just comes off as really cocky and also comes the question of "oh does this candidate not challenge himself."

While logically sure he solved every problem he faced, it can easily be taken as cockiness or overconfidence especially if he's just getting into the field

I mean especially when you're talking to people solving and probably struggling with a problem rn, last thing you need to hear is some 0 experience person saying they can solve all your problems

[hard gust]

No dream is naive, don't stop believing. That cool lab looks like some of those supercomputer labs, with a highly controlled sterilized atmosphere. Yeah, go for hardware, components, embedded systems you will get there. Software developers are more likely to be found in co-working, home-offices and meeting rooms.

[spark cobalt]

Good message, but definitely way better ways to phrase it

Definitely right spirited and good intended

[balmy spade]

So it is the challenge the statement offers that you take exception to? You went from cocky to lazy to overconfident and landed on distrust. I'm just trying to follow.

[spark cobalt]

My main point is it can be taken many ways negatively. Not saying one particular negative way it can be taken over another.

[balmy spade]

Interesting. Thanks!

[spark cobalt]

Dunno. You make a good point though. Probably dependent on interviewer

[elder forge]

Stay in school and get a degree in physics or related STEM field. You ca learn programming as you go. Programming will be a tool you can use, and will be easier to learn than the physics and material chemistry.

[frank apex]

That's what I'm gonna do ^^^

[white relic]

I work in a superconducting electronics test lab. A bit like your picture but no bunny suits. A fab (place where they actually manufacture the chips) is related and might be something else you're interested in. There is a lot of money in manufacturing and post-CMOS computing right now in the EU and USA because of the current geopolitical context. If you'd like to get into manufacturing, I would suggest looking into materials science, materials engineering and physics. On the design side (my path), more electrical/computer engineering.

Either way you will probably need at least a master's degree. It is possible to break into this kind of field with only a bachelor's (I did) but it is not easy nor as lucrative. Learning some programming and data science along the way, as trygvrad suggests, will make you a better scientist and more appealing to hire. But if you want to do real cutting edge stuff it can't be your main focus.

[fossil ether]

how do you go to python site again?

[stoic timber]

https://www.python.org/ For other non-career questions, please see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[sharp thunder]

Hi guys, am I able to post my resume here for it to be checked on? I just created a new one but wanted it to be checked before applying out

[peak halo]

if you post a picture of your resume with sensitive information covered up, you'll probably get a few responses

[oblique patio]

Major in math or stats

[wintry oracle]

hello i am learning python and i want to know how i can put 3 numbers in the symbol <,>

[gritty rivet]

Wrong channel, try #python-discussion or see #❓｜how-to-get-help

[marsh ether]

Anyone who is willing to share Leetcode subscription?
DM me

[wintry oracle]

Thank you very much

[near ocean]

No and also irrelevant to the channel

[true harness]

and also, probably not even worth it

[mortal wedge]

Not too naïve! I know someone that does something like this, she works with weather prediction models for early evacuations and crop rotations and stuff like that. I personally do neuroscience r&d. This job is out there for you 🙂

[frank apex]

What is required for a job in neuroscience?

[mortal wedge]

I have a degree in Biomedical Engineering with a focus on programming, that's what got me this r&d position. Although I'm sure someone with algorithm experience could get it. If I was to hire a junior for this position, I'd want them to have familiarity with the neuroscience related python modules and be extremely comfortable working with numpy and pandas, as well as have a solid math and science background.

[verbal quarry]

ok

can u sugesst some resource from where i can learn

and we can code

[jade wedge]

Hey, im totaly new in the programming world. i Really want to have a futur beeing a software engineer. I have Python on my MacOS, and want to learn it by scratch. I have seen some Youtube videos, but didnt really get anything from it. Can someone help me!

[hasty harness]

Corey Schafer

[jade wedge]

If everything is going like it should. I have plans to start Software technology in the University after summer 2023. But i just want to have a foot ind the programming world.

[hasty harness]

also the goates of all goat
Google

[hasty harness]

I would suggest, dont think that you will learn everything and then you will start making some products

[verbal quarry]

then

[jade wedge]

yeah yeah, i just want to start learn some basics

just to know what i am doing

[hasty harness]

google, youtube

[jade wedge]

hmm, i will give it another try. But im doing as they say, and after like 10 days when looking back. I just understand 0.

I want to use all my time on this, and become good at programing.

[verbal quarry]

i keep forgeting

the python i learned

from harris

very huge

how is sreeni

[dense mesa]

@verbal quarry are you sure you're posting in the right channel?

[verbal quarry]

career disscussion right

so discussing about carreer

[frank apex]

Sounds really interesting, I'm still kind of figuring out what I want to do after I finish high school, but the science and math side really interests me.

[mortal wedge]

As long as you have a solid math/science background the world is your oyster. That’s what’s cool about programming, it’s a useful tool that lets you do all kinds of other things.

[primal fiber]

how long will it approximately take for me to learn something from cybersecurity im 13 years old, and learn things pretty quickly

[verbal quarry]

i have solid background in maths and science

but not a good coder i guess

[verbal quarry]

4 months

[primal fiber]

it cant be that easy

[verbal quarry]

basics

[mortal wedge]

All it takes is practice!

[verbal quarry]

but i just forget stuff so frequently

syntax

[mortal wedge]

We all do. I probably check stack overflow for something at least once a day lol

[frank apex]

You just have to practice 1 hour minimum every day

[mortal wedge]

It’s not about knowing everything it’s about knowing where to find what you need

[verbal quarry]

yeah

[primal fiber]

idk where even to start with cybersecurity 💀

[frank apex]

Yep lol, I think I've been on the same info page about the same thing 20 times and I still dont know it

[frank apex]

"How to start with cybersecurity" on Google idk

[mortal wedge]

This isn’t my field, but I’d try to familiarize yourself with the concepts like pen testing and modules related to it. I did have a coworker who did cybersecurity for the fbi, but I think he had a machine learning background. Unsure if that was necessary

[frank apex]

You could also try it in Reverse, "How to start hacking"

[primal fiber]

2 mins later cia fbi and 3 swats team come up to my house

[verbal quarry]

read books

[frank apex]

"You're hired"

[primal fiber]

It is possible, just in the 0,000's

[verbal quarry]

wooo prty

[frank apex]

That's what they did to the boy that leaked gta and hacked Uber

[primal fiber]

They arrested the guy that leaked gta 6

[mortal wedge]

You could also look at cybersecurity job postings and see what they’re asking for

[idle sleet]

What field should I study if I want to create robots with AI, machine learning, or image recognition?

I'd probably rather design or program the robots than make them myself.

I'm a pretty technical type and I enjoy playing with parts, but I'm honestly not at all knowledgeable in electrical circuits or anything.

(I decided to reformulate my question from yesterday a bit...)

Because it's some kind of mix of robotics, AI and cybernetics. But there are more likely only specialized studying fields on either robotics, AI, or cybernetics. Not all at once...

[graceful mason]

Outside of research it's rare to create robotics and AI at the same time - there will be a separate team handling AI

[analog sun]

Depends on the robot too. The company making the robots don't usually program them for their application - that is up to whoever is buying the assembled robot

[summer geyser]

Final round behavioral interview tomorrow

[frank apex]

[delicate bane]

good luck

[gentle sandal]

Hellooo , WARM GREETINGS FROM ALGERIA, I share with you the neww GOOGLE DEVELOPERS STUDENTS CLUB of the national higher school of artificial intelligence in ALGIERS.

Lots of surprises are coming, sooo join us ! @gdsc_ensia

https://instagram.com/gdsc_ensia?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[mortal wedge]

Mechanical Engineer or Electrical Engineering degree I'd say. That's what the focus was for the robotics club at my college. They needed engineers that work with embedded systems as well

[mortal wedge]

Good luck, you got this!

[mortal wedge]

!resources have you checked out our resources page? A lot of good stuff there

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[hearty kindle]

how do I find repositories to contribute to? I want to get some more activity on my github but don't want to start up another project yet

[mortal wedge]

Hmm. Not sure! Most large repositories I'm aware of need something. I'd choose your favorite and/or what looks interesting and have at it. Even if it's something boring like a bug fix or a documentation clarity thing

[gritty rivet]

https://github.com/MunGell/awesome-for-beginners

[hearty kindle]

appreciate ya both

[cosmic forge]

could finding a mentor be helpful for later on in life? i feel like having someone teach me 1 on 1 would be better for me than just documentation(partially because I can never focus unless it is human contact). I want to find a mentor type person because I am too young to start interning(1 more year). is there anyway that i could find a mentor that would be willing to have sort of classes with me just to teach me and show me what it's like to be a software engineer?

[peak halo]

it would be difficult to find someone who's willing to commit to that kind of relationship, and even less likely that it would last all that long. do you have an extended family member who's a developer?

[cosmic forge]

i have a friend's dad

but, I do not know if he has time, or would be willing to

[dense mesa]

It would likely be helpful, but you would have to seek out schemes that run these things. The Youth Group is one place that runs it in the UK, for example

[cosmic forge]

im in stinky US 😭

[dense mesa]

Finding someone to teach you software engineering and show the job would almost definitely require payment on your side

[cosmic forge]

yowza i dont really have payment to give

[dense mesa]

Right, I'm not saying you should pay anyone, just that this level of commitment is rare to find without it

[cosmic forge]

thats fair, i just dont know what to do whatsoever in order to get experience or anything. I am too young to get a computer science degree and that is where most roadmaps start

[dense mesa]

Write any code in any language and figure out what you enjoy doing, then do more of that

[mortal wedge]

Have you taken a glance at our resources page? You might find something there that clicks with you

[cosmic forge]

i enjoy python, but I just do not know what to code. I usually sit down in front of VSCode just trying to think of what to make lol

[mortal wedge]

But generally people do some canned/toy exercises then move on to contributing to group projects, if they aren't at the computer science route

!projects Hmm. Have you seen these?

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[cosmic forge]

no video editor 😫 lol that might be a bit complicated to start off with though.

[dense mesa]

A bit complicated is one way of putting it 🙂

[cosmic forge]

that is the only software i really am interested in making with python right now, ill look at everything else on the kindling projects page but

[dense mesa]

That's good to hear, would highly recommend giving it a go

[mortal wedge]

They're just ideas, if you have your heart set on something that isn't there, go for it 🙂

[cosmic forge]

i do not really see anything i am interested in, sadly

hm well

maybe i could make a game.

[spark cobalt]

I have a suggestion. Maybe make a video editor

[cosmic forge]

it might be too intimidating for me, lol

[spark cobalt]

Had this problem and ended up making very little projects. Just make. If it's something like a video editor maybe spend a day or two to draw out the structure of your code and the things you'll need to make it work. Then all that's left is to code 🥳

[spark cobalt]

Not worth to give up on a might. Always worth trying.

[cosmic forge]

where could i start?

[spark cobalt]

Google to figure if it's possible (should be), and through this Google search you should get some leads on technologies to use.

[cosmic forge]

i know moviepy and ffmpeg could be useful.

[spark cobalt]

After you found all the technologies you'll probably need, start drawing out how all the technologies will work with each other to make the video editor.

Jumbling the ideas over and over again and getting a super deep understanding of the workflow and structure of your project, then coding becomes the easy part.

I think all you need to do is connect movie.py to some sort of UI. Unsure what moviepy provides tho

Yeah someone made a video editor using moviepy and tkinter

[cosmic forge]

moviepy can cut and split clips and merge etc. i just dont know how to interpret that into a gui

[spark cobalt]

You'll definitely need some kind of playback bar which can give you information on location of where to cut/split/etc. And then maybe just a button that calls moviepy to cut at a certain time?

I don't know much about gui or tkinter in general tho so I'm unsure of the structure to do things

[cosmic forge]

i have seen barely any examples using gui and moviepy lol

[spark cobalt]

I just seen someone on YouTube done it. Maybe others too have done it as well

[cosmic forge]

who?

[spark cobalt]

Such a moral dilemma

[hollow cairn]

Can I do complete webdev from python or Should I move to JS/TS?
And what's the difference if you can?

And do ping on reply :)

[gritty rivet]

Without learning JS/TS, you cannot realistically do full stack or front end web dev. You can do backend work, but even there knowing JS is highly advantageous

[hollow cairn]

Thanks :)

[hollow cairn]

So should I start with JS/TS and come back to frameworks like django or fininsh learning django and move to JS?

[gritty rivet]

That's really up to you and your goals. If your goal is to be a fullstack web developer specifically, I would probably prioritize JS over Python but the order is not that important.

[hollow cairn]

I see thanks :)

[true harness]

any tips for a teams/zoom interview?

[buoyant seal]

Sleep well in advance

[mortal wedge]

Do a test call with someone else to make sure your mic/camera works and they can see/hear you

[opal ingot]

I have a few questions About Object Oriented Programming, can anyone help me?

[summer roost]

Are they somehow related to career discussion?

[gilded valley]

One tip that was given to me was to set it up so that you don't see your own camera/face, makes it mirror a natural conversation more

Also put the zoom window just under you camera, so looking at their face is also looking at their camera

[buoyant seal]

Speaking of zoom/teams stuff. Making sure u have very well working web camera / microphone of a good quality. Installing necessary programs and ensuring they work correctly, so that u will be not late for interviews.
Even being 5 minutes late is bad

[mossy turret]

should I stay in the UK and pursue an internship in software engineering/data science or find an internship abroad like America or Sweden

[gilded valley]

do you have American or Swedish/EU citizenship? Do you speak Swedish?

[dense mesa]

Gonna need way more context to give a suitable answer

[near remnant]

Ajax got me fuckd up first time

[misty jacinth]

Hello everyone,
I'm in last year of university and currently I'm in software development field. I want to ask how log will it take to learn data science, and how to switch from developer profile to a data scientist? Also what are the pros and cons of being a data scientist?

[gilded valley]

what country are you in?

[misty jacinth]

India

[peak halo]

I know nothing about how getting a job works in India. but in general, being a data scientist is more about your theoretical knowledge of how to use data, and not really about your programming skills.
con: if you like software development from the perspective of building and maintaining large systems, a lot of data science-related positions won't fulfill that for you.
pro: it pays well (at least in the US), and if you're on the AI side of things, people will think you're cool when you say that you do AI development. (that or everyone around me is gaslighting me )

[misty jacinth]

Thanks 😂

[delicate bane]

youre very cool stel

[summer geyser]

it was not behavioral

[near ocean]

ohno, how did it go?

[summer geyser]

Well he gave me a coding question and similar to last time.. I got to test it once and it ran(but wrong answer) and he asked if I knew what I was missing and I was like oh yes I should sort the numbers first and went to do that… he was like oh no that’s good I just wanted to see if you knew what you’re missing

So like last time… didn’t actually get the result (they only give 10 min) but they stopped me when I told them what i was missing

[spark cobalt]

🥳

[summer geyser]

So now I wait and

[orchid hatch]

One page?

Unless the job you're applying for specifies one-page CVs I would do two pages for anything postgraduate level.

I personally would try to minimise technical language as much as possible. The first person to look at your CV might not have the exact same areas of expertise as you.

I have a CV guide from my university which I could send to you when I'm back from holiday if you like. It also includes great tips for covering letters and interview preparation

[gritty crystal]

been thinking alright do mostly of you guys doesn't have a sofware engineering degree but has a job?

[near ocean]

99% of the people here that have jobs as software devs have some sort of STEM degree

[buoyant seal]

well, if to believe this site regarding US statistics:
https://seedscientific.com/software-engineering-statistics/
73% of software engineers have a bachelor’s degree. 20% of others are having master's degree.
https://www.zippia.com/software-engineer-jobs/demographics/
and less than 7% of software engineers are having alternative degree
I wonder where is % of people without degrees

[gritty crystal]

but is it important to get a degree for SE?

[buoyant seal]

well, if u a in US, apperently u have almost 0 chances without degree according to those statistics
All the workplaces are already occupied by people with degrees

And that's kind of the answer: With degree, u a way more highly likely to make your first steps into career

without it: u a competing among with all other graduates from online courses having a hype, which are in general having way less chance for quality

likelyhood someone will invest into u growing into specialist is way less after graduation from non-higher-degree institution

[gritty crystal]

if u have no degree in SE but has more experience would that be fine?