ot1-perplexing-regexing

[harsh tundra]

If you have realtek, open the sound settings via realtek icon (usually orange speaker icon) and check there - it has option to change what was connected (it should ask the first time you connect, but then it remembers, so you gotta open gui).

If not realtek, idk

[raw depot]

because windows audio device management is absolute shit? (I feel you, I've never been able to solve similar issues except with lots of fiddling/restarting/etc.....it just eventually works and I can never figure out what I did that caused a change)

oh! if you have discord going at the same time, it can cause weird issues

if you're not using the same, say, headset for in and out in discord

which, to the original point, it's bizzare that an application can cause that kind of issue

[near geode]

i dont have realtek

[harsh tundra]

Sometimes windows loses our projector (that we use for movies). Nothing visible with error in device manager, it's always plugged in and normally doubled with one screen... Only restart helps then

In the past it used to lose the projector when power went out for a moment (pc itself is under ups) bc the projector wasn't on standby then - but turning it on made windows see it again... Not anymore.

[shy rock]

Im not sure if im in the correct place but im having trouble running pip commands on windows.

[harsh tundra]

This channel is offtopic, hence "ot".
For python questions, you'd usually just come directly to #python-discussion or make a post in #1035199133436354600 (read #❓｜how-to-get-help first)

But my guess is that it says pip is not recognised?
That's a common problem. For several years python moved to using "python launcher for Windows", also called just "py launcher" because the command is just py. But the tutorials still say to just run python/pip as commands.
With py, you use py instead of python and you use py -m pip instead of just pip

So pip install somepackage becomes py -m pip install somepackage

[shy rock]

Well you got it to do more then I did. Thank you!

[thick osprey]

Nothing like a goal with hard minimums to bring out consistency. 9 days to go and 17.4k words to finish.

[frozen solstice]

Gosh I hate school tests

Tell me why I need to study minimum 1month

[thick osprey]

You'll be studying and learning for the rest of your life. Thankfully, the standardized tests stop being so common.

[forest gull]

Good morning 🌅

[marble bay]

@worthy oracle most recent example of actual use I got out of local models was this - crunched 1 semesters worth of books and slides in ~4 hours

[worthy oracle]

...

[marble bay]

would've hit usage limits wayyyyyy earlier on any other service

[worthy oracle]

personally i literally cannot care less about doing this

but everyone has their own study method

[marble bay]

I mean I don't use ai to study but I kinda procrastinated too hard coz ✨ depression ✨

[worthy oracle]

there there *pet pet*

[marble bay]

either way most of the time it's just me messing around making it do shtuff

the most consistent use I get is out of whisper

transcribing audio for making subtitles for videos

[idle elbow]

can anyone help me

the linter has throwing me this error since like yesterday

and im like 109% sure that i didn't overwrite nor do smth with the print function

in fact the code works perfectly fine

https://github.com/Lanzoor/periodica

the main file is src > main.py and im sharing the github link becuase theres like 9 files in my workspace with like multi-hundred lines of code

kind of weird becuas ei thought this was temporary so i reinstalled vscode, removed all linter cache and reinstalled all extensions of mine yesterday

and its today

THIS STUPID ERROR KEEPS SHOWING EWIORUEWH

[tardy rain]

Does the error not say anything further

[idle elbow]

literally just "print" is unbound

thats it

and it says that

(variable) print: Unbound

normally it'd say

(function) def print(
... (i omitted it)
) -> None

when i hover over it

[tardy rain]

have you tried renaming your function

it might be complaining that you overwrote the builtin print

why did you shadow print anyway, surely theres a better name for this function

[idle elbow]

i didnt shadow print

i didnt overwrite print in any way

did i?

[tardy rain]

you have a function named print my guy

[idle elbow]

really?

where

[tardy rain]

?

[idle elbow]

no like thats the built in print function

thats supposed to pop up

(function) def print(
    *values: object,
    sep: str | None = " ",
    end: str | None = "\n",
    file: SupportsWrite[str] | None = None,
    flush: Literal[False] = False
) -> None

i just omitted the content

[tardy rain]

you dont get this error for line 6 in main.py

so my guess would be your import try is messing it up

try removing the sys.exit(0) line and check with pylance again

[tardy rain]

or line 17 in main.py

[idle elbow]

yeah i know that the errors doesnt happen there

hmm

i removed the sys.exit call but this still shows up

[tardy rain]

both?

also you have a logger class, why are you printing

[idle elbow]

the print is for output, the logger class is for logging

log messages only show up in the terminal if debugging is enabled

[worthy oracle]

@turbid oyster

what is your root method

[turbid oyster]

Magisk, standard installation, I downloaded the update from Bifrost and patched the boot.img, then used Odin to flash it

[worthy oracle]

what modules do you have

[turbid oyster]

lemme check rq

[worthy oracle]

...

[turbid oyster]

they're being sent

[worthy oracle]

oh it's a screenshot

you could also just... type it out

[turbid oyster]

my wifi is slow af rn

yeah

[turbid oyster]

oh wait

[worthy oracle]

got the screenshots

[turbid oyster]

sending one by one is way faster

[turbid oyster]

i got zygisk assistant because apparently it helps but it doesn't work with playintegrityfix

[worthy oracle]

your magisk looks very different from mine

[turbid oyster]

really?

oh wait no that's MMRL

it's a module manager thingy

also has a cli

[worthy oracle]

i see

are you using the built in zygisk?

[turbid oyster]

yep

[worthy oracle]

im using rezygisk

[turbid oyster]

I have enforce denylist off

[turbid oyster]

what's that?

and does it help with hiding Magisk from apps?

[worthy oracle]

it's a separate zygisk implementation, the built in ones doesnt work last time i tried

i also have

lsposed + hide my applist

[turbid oyster]

wait get 8 ball pool from miniclip on play store and try to launch it

[worthy oracle]

you dont have PIF?

[turbid oyster]

what's PIF?

[worthy oracle]

play integrity fix

[turbid oyster]

oh yeah no

[worthy oracle]

i dont use zygisk assistant

[turbid oyster]

don't if you have PIF

they are conflicting modules

[worthy oracle]

and then i have tricky store and yuri keybox

my banking app works

[turbid oyster]

nice

[worthy oracle]

google wallet also works

[turbid oyster]

send your config and modules please

check if you can play 8 ball pool

that's one of the harder games to hide from

[worthy oracle]

you might want to try checking with native detector

https://github.com/reveny/Android-Native-Root-Detector

[turbid oyster]

thank you

[worthy oracle]

the playspoofer is there to stop play store from updating above 41

because it breaks google wallet

[turbid oyster]

why's that?

[turbid oyster]

oh

i don't use Google wallet much so

[worthy oracle]

and hide my applist is to obviously hide the root apps

[turbid oyster]

not even my banking apps

I wonder why denylist doesn't work

[worthy oracle]

i think every banking app has their own detection mech

[turbid oyster]

most try to detect su

if it exists, or BusyBox, then it's a rooted system

and some check if /system is rw or ro

[worthy oracle]

i have denylist turned on and set to play store + google wallet + my banking apps

[turbid oyster]

nice

[worthy oracle]

but im using zygisknext

[turbid oyster]

so do I but it's not doing much

[worthy oracle]

so i have the built in zygisk turned off

[turbid oyster]

I've heard of this one but wasn't sure whether to use it

[worthy oracle]

wait no im using rezygisk, which is a fork of zygisknext

mb

i believe zygisknext works as well

[turbid oyster]

same thing

[turbid oyster]

.pin

[worthy oracle]

the built in zygisk has been detectable for some time now

[turbid oyster]

obviously, I couldn't even get to the login menu

clash royale still works

[worthy oracle]

oh also

[turbid oyster]

also fifa and efootball

[worthy oracle]

apparently rebooting may cause root to get detected because of race condition

so i try not to reboot often

[turbid oyster]

ah

[worthy oracle]

i set everything up once and never reboot

[turbid oyster]

what's your current uptime?

[worthy oracle]

400+ hours

[turbid oyster]

gah dayum

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/768921181184065546/1048316411291906048/image0-4.gif

battery rn

[worthy oracle]

i kinda have to redo the process if one part messes up

so i try not to

[turbid oyster]

is there no known mitigation to this?

[worthy oracle]

earlier in the year they added the keybox thing

so it's a relatively new process

i dont think it's optimized as of yet

[turbid oyster]

ah

[worthy oracle]

for a few months i could not get my banking app to work at all

[turbid oyster]

so ig I'll just have to wait until the race condition is fixed

[worthy oracle]

it's alright

[turbid oyster]

eh I don't even reboot much

[worthy oracle]

i have battery saver permanently turned on

[turbid oyster]

what brand do you have?

[worthy oracle]

rebooting is not confirmed to cause detection

google pixel 4a with lineage os 22.2

[turbid oyster]

I'm jealous icl

[worthy oracle]

it's very good

you should be jealous

[turbid oyster]

I'm stuck between oneui and a broken lineage os build for my exact model

[worthy oracle]

the grass IS greener on this side

[turbid oyster]

because mediatek fucking sucks

[turbid oyster]

i know

[worthy oracle]

s10e?

[turbid oyster]

a10

[worthy oracle]

oh

[turbid oyster]

A series are never good

[worthy oracle]

yea you get a lot less support

for the less common models

[worthy oracle]

try this btw

it should enumerate all the possible detection mechanisms

[turbid oyster]

I tried making drivers for my chip's wifi adapter to have monitor mode

mediatek being mediatek, no docs

[turbid oyster]

.pin

[frozen crane]

Barbara liskov used to work for my company

Too bad I pretty much never use inheritance.

[stark prawn]

Do you substitute it for something else?

[worthy oracle]

bank robbery

[frozen crane]

No

[full gate]

😭

[hollow dagger]

theres green android/

[jaunty wraith]

@proud wagon, what's purple voodoo

uhhh

wrong tag

@solemn tulip

[solemn tulip]

some tea I got from my brother who imported tea from (I think) china

I'm happy my luggage wasn't inspected during that flight when I brought a bunch of small ziploc bags like that

[jaunty wraith]

[worthy oracle]

eh

surely weed doesnt smell like tea

[jaunty wraith]

do ziplocs let the smell escape

[worthy oracle]

apparently you can mask smells with coffee ground

[solemn tulip]

it's more that it looked so suspect

these things in small dosed bags with sloppy hand-writing

[worthy oracle]

where i live, durian is very popular, but the scent also makes it banned on trains, so people would put durians into a tupperware, and then put the tupperware into another container packed with coffee ground

and it works

i expect you can do the same with ziplocs

[solemn tulip]

something like
https://yunnansourcing.com/products/purple-voodoo-purple-black-tea-cake-spring-2021

[hollow dagger]

oh u live in thailand dont u

durian tastes kinda good though

[worthy oracle]

close enough

[hollow dagger]

ill give it that

nam'?

[worthy oracle]

further down south

on a small island

[hollow dagger]

thaiwan

[obsidian summit]

Singapore??

[worthy oracle]

yes

[obsidian summit]

Nice

[wraith flower]

I feel like I've watched a mythbusters episode on this where the drug dog still sniffed it out xD

[thick osprey]

Let's go. Less than 300 words behind par with at least one more writing session planned for the day (maybe two). So you're saying there's still a chance!

[turbid oyster]

does your device meet strong integrity?

[worthy oracle]

only device integrity

[turbid oyster]

ah, I see why now

there's a hardware module

[worthy oracle]

do you need strong integrity?

[turbid oyster]

sometimes yea

mainly for Google play games tho

[worthy oracle]

the common thing to do is to meet device integrity because you are introducing more and more detection vectors if you try to meet strong integrity

[turbid oyster]

do I break my phone

[vale raven]

yes

[turbid oyster]

absolute cinema

[worthy oracle]

you will break your phone

if you update

[vale raven]

You have to run it over with your car PRECISELY 17.458 times

[turbid oyster]

it won't even wanna download

[vale raven]

Otherwise it will explode

[worthy oracle]

that's just a common samsung bug

[turbid oyster]

Samsung servers send a packet to check if the device has OEM unlocking on

[turbid oyster]

nope it's an intended feature

[worthy oracle]

it's hj

[turbid oyster]

what's hj

[turbid oyster]

i could just download the update from Samsung's servers (they are easily tricked) and flash the boot.img then pack it into the AP and flash it onto my phone

[turbid oyster]

what's the app on the 1st pic?

[worthy oracle]

lsposed

it's a magisk module

[turbid oyster]

there's an app and a module?

[turbid oyster]

ik

[worthy oracle]

the module by itself doesnt do anything

you need to install and activate lsposed modules in the UI

the UI is accessed via the module "Action"

[turbid oyster]

oh

kinda complicated but I'll find a way

[turbid oyster]

thanks for the help

[worthy oracle]

how now

brown cow

[turbid oyster]

lel

I'm gonna go back to stock tmr

[worthy oracle]

im pretty sure there is a fuse

[turbid oyster]

rooting is a constant fight that I can't put up

[turbid oyster]

relocking doesn't do anything to the fuse but doesn't tell games that the device is rooted too

and I can't even use chatgpt

?

[worthy oracle]

im pretty sure you cant pass bootloader checks

even if you relock

[turbid oyster]

Duh

8 ball pool only checks for root

[worthy oracle]

and?

[turbid oyster]

BL checks don't matter

[worthy oracle]

isnt it on the denylist?

[turbid oyster]

Yeah, still didn't work

It's on both HMA and denylist

[worthy oracle]

did you disable the built in zygisk

[turbid oyster]

Yep

[worthy oracle]

and installed rezygisk?

[timid latch]

all this talk is really making me want to root my phone again, but gods I hate dealing with banking stuff on a rooted phone xD

[worthy oracle]

did you enforce denylist

[turbid oyster]

Rezygisk didn't lauch

[turbid oyster]

No

[worthy oracle]

rezygisk is a module

[turbid oyster]

Do I?

[worthy oracle]

you will need to do that

[turbid oyster]

Ik I have it

[worthy oracle]

it doesnt have UI

[turbid oyster]

I also installed Shamiko by accident and now it doesn't wanna get off my module list

[worthy oracle]

you cant uninstall shamiko?

[turbid oyster]

Nope

[worthy oracle]

idk

maybe my stubborn programmer brain just doesnt know when to stop trying

[turbid oyster]

Wait now I can but I have the option to restore it

Bleh

[worthy oracle]

why are you trying to restore it

[turbid oyster]

Not trying to

it's just an option in module list

[worthy oracle]

did you reboot and wipe data?

[turbid oyster]

Wipe data where?

[weak peak]

8ball pool is tuff

[worthy oracle]

wipe the 8 ball game data

[turbid oyster]

And I did reboot a few times

[turbid oyster]

Oh okay

[turbid oyster]

Frfr

[weak peak]

https://tenor.com/view/man-eating-apple-freaky-gif-15686405546689630125

[worthy oracle]

make sure you enforce denylist

[turbid oyster]

Alr did, same result

[worthy oracle]

and rebooted?

and wiped the app data?

[turbid oyster]

Idk why I even rooted lol all I use it for is to get wifi passwords from anywhere I want

[worthy oracle]

oh lmao

[turbid oyster]

I enforced denylist and rebooted

[turbid oyster]

Yea there's this app I found called stryker

It's a hidden gem

It even has MSF

And other stuff for the skids in here like @weak peak

[timid latch]

Yeah rooting is nice for stuff like ad blocking and privacy, and I guess customization

[opaque merlin]

David Garvin suggests that quality should be considered by taking a multidimensional viewpoint that
begins with an assessment of conformance and terminates with a transcendental (aesthetic) view.
Although Garvin’s eight dimensions of quality were not developed specifically for software, they can be
applied when software quality is considered:```

anyone have to study theoretical stuff like this

software management stuff

i hate this subject

[granite tree]

This is such a ridiculously pompous quote.

[opaque merlin]

😭

[granite tree]

"multidimensional... comformance.... transcendental"... cmon

[opaque merlin]

yeah my pdf full of this

for that subject

[granite tree]

I agree though with the point:

[worthy oracle]

tfw the humanities major become project managers

[thick ore]

just write the code bro 🥀

[granite tree]

There's a concept of the project management triangle: Time, Cost, Features => Pick any 2

The problem with that is qualityis ignored.

In reality, in business, we are told: "Here's the release date, and here are your resources", and the only lever we have is: "features vs quality"

[granite tree]

So, I disagree with him in practice - quality is not "transcendental": it's a tangible thing that a project or engineering manager can directly control by allocating time differently.

[opaque merlin]

yeh we call it software quality dilemma

[worthy oracle]

there are too many people talking out of their ass

[granite tree]

There's also the conjoined triangles of success: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_nuZD4Y7IM

[worthy oracle]

pardon my language

[worthy oracle]

technically, there are businesses that don't assign a fixed release date

but those are far and few between

it'll be a joy to work in those

[granite tree]

My first management job, I was given a failed (a very failed) product/project.

Literally, the engineering manager was given all three: time, cost, features... and shipped a completely terrible product.

Anyway, I got his job... but luckily, I could push back on features. The release date was set. My team was set. So, the only thing I could do is say: "we'll do it one milestone at a time, and whatever gets done, gets done."

[opaque merlin]

The charter of the SQA group is to assist the software team in achieving a high-quality end product. The
Software Engineering Institute recommends a set of SQA activities that address quality assurance planning,
oversight, record keeping, analysis, and reporting. These activities are performed (or facilitated) by an
independent SQA group that:
Prepares an SQA plan for a project. The plan is developed as part of project planning and is reviewed by all
stakeholders. Quality assurance activities performed by the software engineering team and the SQA group
are governed by the plan. The plan identifies evaluations to be performed, audits and reviews to be
conducted, standards that are applicable to the project, procedures for error reporting and tracking, work
products that are produced by the SQA group, and feedback that will be provided to the software team.
Participates in the development of the project’s software process description. The software team selects
a process for the work to be performed. The SQA group reviews the process description for compliance
with organizational policy, internal software standards, externally imposed standards (e.g., ISO-9001), and
other parts of the software project plan.
Reviews software engineering activities to verify compliance with the defined software process. The SQA
group identifies, documents, and tracks deviations from the process and verifies that corrections have
been made.

[granite tree]

1. The product managers absolutely hated that. They fought me all the way up to the executives.

[opaque merlin]

what are these sqa tasks

[granite tree]

2. Luckily, my boss had my back

[granite tree]

Ugh, this reads like stuff I haven't seen in decades.

[thick osprey]

Toughest conversations I have at work. "We want it all, right now" - well, you can't have it all so here is what we do have right now.

[worthy oracle]

i suppose it's also kinda your communication skills that made your boss agree with your decisions

[granite tree]

Absolutely. Plus, the fact that my predecessor failed so miserably gave us ammunition.

I still remember the executive saying: "I get it, this is risk management, good plan".

[worthy oracle]

if i had a nickel for every time a manager used the word ammunition i would have 2 nickels

is it risk management, or just realistic planning

[thick osprey]

Realistic planning is risk management.

Everything has risk.

[worthy oracle]

i think i confused that with managing expectations

so ignore that

[granite tree]

There's an assumption here that the "SQA" team is distinct from the engineering team. In many companies, QA is part of the engineering team, with a common reporting hierarchy.

In my case, QA reported to an entirely different EVP (one step below CEO), which was the extreme case. Altho, that was unrelated to the problems I had.

[granite tree]

But to answer your question, this is saying:

1. Ideally, the SQA team is independent from the engineering team (this is often not the case)
2. The SQA team should create a plan, and get feedback / buy-in from different stakeholders... and the stakeholders aren't just the engineers building it.
3. This plan should consider engineering's plan
4. QA should also make sure the software engineers aren't cowboying their way through development

(good luck with #4)

[worthy oracle]

cowboying?

[granite tree]

doing things ad-hoc

making it up as they go

yolo'ing development.

[worthy oracle]

as in, deviating from the plan/scope?

[granite tree]

I mean, not even having a plan

[thick ore]

don't we all

[opaque merlin]

i am just going to learn topic and sub headings and just write something out of it

gemini says

This is the "roadmap" for quality.
It is developed during project planning and reviewed by all stakeholders.
What's inside? It lists exactly which audits will happen, which standards apply, how errors will be reported, and how feedback will be given to the team.
Participates in Process Description:

The software team decides how they want to work (the process).
The SQA group reviews this process to make sure it complies with organizational policy and external standards (like ISO-9001).

Reviewing ActivitiesThe Process"Are you following the steps we agreed on?" (e.g., Did the team actually hold the daily stand-up meeting?)Auditing Work ProductsThe Output"Is the document/code you built correct according to standards?" (e.g., Does this Requirement Document have all the necessary fields?

Ensures Deviations are Documented:
If the team goes off-track (deviates) from the plan or standards, SQA ensures it is written down. They don't just fix it; they document it to handle it according to procedure.
Records Non-Compliance & Reports to Management:
If the issue is serious (Non-compliance), SQA reports it to Senior Management.
Crucially, they track this item until it is resolved. They don't just report it and walk away.```

[thick osprey]

There's a huge difference between being agile with defined tasks and just making shit up as you go.

(e.g., Did the team actually hold the daily stand-up meeting?)
No. We found it a waste of 90 minutes and moved it to an async slack channel.

[granite tree]

The idea that the QA team has any oversight over engineering's process is somewhat laughable.

[thick osprey]

If the QA team is the one plugged into the client, then I absolutely want them steering. But boy, that feels like a relic of the past today.

I talk directly to the client these days. I'm my own QA.

[granite tree]

I'm still angry about the time I tried to get QA to test data accuracy instead of whether all the buttons worked.

(this was that same company)

I believe they said: "you're not the boss of me"

Also, to date myself, I said: "You really should use virtual machines to test this, rather than waiting on expensive hardware"

[thick osprey]

A good QA team member is just as difficult to find as a curious dev. You just have to find the gems in the rough and hope they are the type to inspire others to follow. ((I might be slightly jaded))

[worthy oracle]

curious dev?

[thick osprey]

The difference between "I do this thing because it fixes the issue" and "why is this even an issue that I need to fix?"

[granite tree]

In my case, it really was a management mess. QA reported to an entirely different hierarchy (up to one step below CEO)

[worthy oracle]

could you give me an example?

[thick osprey]

Yeah, that's sounds like a disaster.

[worthy oracle]

i dont think im a curious dev, but it sounds like something i can improve on

[thick osprey]

I was handed a task where I was suppose to create an actionable report around missing data in one of our platforms. This has moved through three dev teams until it landed with me. ((combination of my leader doesn't hold the line hard enough and we owned the platform)).

I was told to estimate the project. I asked for two weeks. I was given one week.

I spend two days just researching why the data was missing. Not how to find it. Not how to fix it. Why wasn't it there? It seemed it should be there.

Turns out, it was a system issue four sources upstream. We fixed it. No need for a report any more.

A lot of devs will just take the task and do the task. They don't ask "why" enough.

[worthy oracle]

i see

[thick osprey]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys

[worthy oracle]

-# how else do you solve a problem though without asking why

[thick osprey]

By building a solution to the problem presented instead.

[worthy oracle]

but how do you build the solution if you dont know the cause of the problem?

[thick osprey]

Hang out in pydis. You'll see it all the time. We even have a tag for it. It's just an x-y problem except you don't dig into the problem under the proposed solution.

[worthy oracle]

ok that makes a lot of sense now

it's an x-y problem at the scale of a team/company

[opaque merlin]

what is meant by sofware process imporvement

[thick osprey]

"We need a report to fix this missing data so that we can manually fix it" turned into "By resolving the database error that was unmonitored, we have resolved all missing data."

((and we put monitoring on that database))

((((which also lead to discussions on best practice for database construction))))

((((((which eventually lead to improvements on the scripts that built the databases to always include basic monitoring))))))

[worthy oracle]

hmm ill keep that in mind

[thick osprey]

The risk of being curious is that you can get lost in the weeds. It's a fine line between what is needed now and what you can dig up by wandering from the path a little.

[worthy oracle]

heh

[thick osprey]

I work directly with seven others. Two of them are deeply curious. One of them is learning to be curious. Three of them just do whatever gets the task off their list. My influence grows.

Truthfully, we work well together. I push us out of scope. They pull me back in.

[thick osprey]

Any more context to that?

[noble crypt]

morning preccts

[opaque merlin]

• The term software process improvement (SPI) implies many things. First, it implies that elements of an
effective software process can be defi ned in an effective manner; second, that an existing
organizational approach to software development can be assessed against those elements; and third,
that a meaningful strategy for improvement can be defi ned.
• The SPI strategy transforms the existing approach to software development into something that is
more focused, more repeatable, and more reliable.
• Although an organization can choose a relatively informal approach to SPI, the vast majority choose
one of a number of SPI frameworks. An SPI framework defines
1. a set of characteristics that must be present if an effective software process is to be achieved,
2. a method for assessing whether those characteristics are present,
3. a mechanism for summarizing the results of any assessment, and
4. a strategy for assisting a software organization in implementing those process characteristics that
have been found to be weak or missing.

is this way to improve software quality assurance process

there is a bunch of paragraphs related to this called SPI process

CMMI comes after this

i think thats a popular one?

[thick osprey]

A good question for Billy or others. I find myself generally allergic to project management terms. What I'm reading is just a whole lot of words to say "team agreement" on how development happens.

[thick ore]

i think a lot of project management is just trying to mathematically model the software development process and failing...

[noble crypt]

Not failing, But finding new and creative ways to not succeed.

[thick osprey]

There's a lot of value in having a standard. I can't argue with that. SPI and CMMI are frameworks to give words to those standards of process. Just the same way developers gave words to our standards (Design Patterns anyone?).

I'm just admitting that I'm not versed in the field and almost always just turn my ears off when involved in a meeting that pulls up maturity charts. I know my lane. This one isn't it.

[tardy rain]

That sounds like the most corporate speak coded "process" ever

[thick ore]

pms trying to justify their existence

[thick osprey]

aren't we all

[noble crypt]

no

[tardy rain]

no indeed

[noble crypt]

thanks for playing

[opaque merlin]

Level 1    Performed    
"Just doing it."


The specific goals are met, and the work gets done, but it might be ad-hoc or disorganized.

Level 2    Managed    
"Managed Policy."


The work adheres to a policy. People have resources. Work is monitored, controlled, and reviewed. Stakeholders are involved.

Level 3    Defined    
"Standardization."


The process isn't just managed per project; it is tailored from the Organization's Standard Processes. It contributes data back to the organization's library of assets.

Level 4    Quantitatively Managed    
"Measured Control."


The process is controlled using statistical and quantitative techniques. You have specific number targets for quality and performance.

Level 5    Optimized    
"Continuous Improvement."


The process is constantly improved based on the quantitative data to meet changing customer needs.```

[thick osprey]

Oh look. A maturity chart!

[opaque merlin]

the CMMI

[thick osprey]

I think of it as "How healthy is the assembly line?"

If work is requested from the top (clients) then what happens down the line. Are people running around scrambling, yelling, and crying? Does the request flow smoothly through the channels until the result pops out at the end?

[granite tree]

As soon as anyone mentions CMM or anything like that, I also tune out. My experience is they (the speaker) is full of nonsense.

[thick osprey]

I don't feel so bad now.

[granite tree]

Not that I don't think they're useful conceptually, but that in practice they're just buzzwords thrown about to say: 'we need moar process'

[thick osprey]

Nothing a little re-org won't fix, yes-sir-ee

[weak peak]

[severe wadi]

trying to make a lil game engine thing

made in odin

[ripe birch]

Sweet

[ripe birch]

I should save this video in case my wife cannot cut my hair
https://youtu.be/DSZCH2mlz_M?si=x2ebfpf5B-DtwWP4

[hollow dagger]

suss

[thick ore]

maybe i'm falling for apple propaganda but i think their product prices are justified

if you don't mind a little bit of ecosystem lock-in then the products are genuinely great
the tight integration of hardware and software let them squeeze every bit of performance out
the planned obsolescence is... fine, in my opinion? eventually you have to upgrade after like 5 years
software is polished, almost everything has an animation and there are (arguably) strict app store rules (especially on iphone)

[warped sentinel]

I just don't like the OS

and the DE doesn't feel very ergonomic

That said, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder

[thick ore]

i think they optimize for simplicity and not so much ergonomics

you can use a tiling wm if you want, iirc

[slim forge]

then why upgrading feels like a rip off

[thick ore]

how so

let's take the iphone 15 -> 16, the 16 doesn't bring that much more than 15

but the software support is roughly the same (~5 years) so you can just buy a 15, there's not really a deal breaker if you don't like the 16

[slim forge]

The storage upgrade price just doesn’t match real SSD prices

[thick ore]

that's true i can't lie

the jump from 128 to 256gb costs a lot

[slim forge]

And drops significantly for used devices

[thick ore]

you can buy a used device

i would prefer a used one actually

long as there's no major damages

[slim forge]

Yeah that would be a hack if you happen to like it

i do agree it's good for normal users, but they realy dont have to rip them off

[plush sun]

Statheads, can you get the number of possibilities from a sample of the results of those possibilities?

[stark prawn]

can you elaborate?

[plush sun]

I don't really have a situation, I'm just curious, but I think I can give an example

Imagine you have 26 possibilities, one for each English letter, and you have an equal chance of getting any of them

And for example, you got xxqlijymbwmhrmb

Not knowing anything but statistics, can you know that there are 26 possibilities from those 15 outcomes (letters)?

Or like, from whatever reasonable number of outcomes you want

[stark prawn]

Not that I know off

There's no way to exclude 0-9 for example

[plush sun]

I see, though what about if we only wanted to be 95% sure and not 100%?

[acoustic moss]

you can probably phrase it like "whats the probability of the number of possibilities being n given that youve observed these 15"

[plush sun]

I think that's a good way to phrase it... unfortunately, Google sucks nowadays 😔

[raven cipher]

We are gonna meet aliens, they look like us, but their cells are mirrored, and when that happens, its all too late

[marble bay]

I don't know if I'm right, but logically thinking about it, you should be able to get a probability distribution of n

Say there are k unique observed outcomes and m observed outcomes

P(n<k) is obviously 0

And logically P(n=k) should be the maximum

And it decays towards 0 for P(n=k+1) P(n=k+2) etc. etc. infinitely because with no other constraints on n itself in the general case, we can't place an upper bound on it

Of course in your example with knowledge that it is characters in the English alphabet, we have an upper bound of n<=26

I guess you'd have to calculate the probability of the observed outcomes happening for a particular n, but idk if that in itself would be enough or if you'd need to do something else

Hmm

Let's cook up a simple example ig

[plush sun]

Feel free to make a simpler example, and maybe even increase the sample size

If, instead of 15 sample-size occurences, you get 30, or 100, or 200, and that changes something, please feel free to inform me

If you want the example to have only 5 unique outcomes, then feel free to do that too

[crystal spruce]

so kinda like the coupon collector problem

[crystal spruce]

yeah wiki for coupon collector gives an expression for the probability that it takes exactly x rolls, so to figure it out for 26 and 95% just accumulate until the probability is over 95%

[plush sun]

Hmm, I don't think that's it, unfortunately

I think the thing we're looking for is 26, not x

[marble bay]

Coupon collector works with a known n though, it's not a given than n=26 here

[plush sun]

Yeah

[crystal spruce]

hmm

[young shoal]

it is like the tank counting problem isn't it

[crystal spruce]

i think you would need to define what probability distribution you're selecting n from for 95% sure to make sense

[plush sun]

Fair

I wasn't really thinking of one, I was more thinking that more samples mean that you can be very very sure that the answer was 26 (like 95% sure), but you can't discount the possibility of the answer not being 26 (100% sure, which Grote alluded with "There's no way to exclude 0-9 for example")

[crystal spruce]

well the thing is that being 95% sure depends on you having prior knowledge as to the chance of getting n=26
if the distribution was p(26) = 1 then you can be 100% sure it is 26, if the distribution was uniform over 1 to 26 you wouldn't be as sure, if p(26) = 0 then you can be 100% sure it isn't 26

i think for this example a reasonable assumption would be that the number of possible letters is upper bounded by some number, and it's a uniform distribution over that

and then you should be able to invert p(n = 26 | 15 unique) via bayes' theorem
p(15 unique | n = 26) by the stirling number expression, p(15 unique) as the sum over all x of p(15 unique | n = x) and p(n = 26) by the probability distribution on n

[plush sun]

That sounds right

Though I should say, I don't really think you need prior knowledge

If you get 1,000 samples for that 26-possibility set, you're gonna notice that there only seems to be only 26 possibilities

I'm kinda curious about smaller sample-sizes

Though I think that means I moved the goalposts from my initial question

[crystal spruce]

well that would just correspond to the fact that if you get 1000 samples for a 26 entry set, for "most" probability distributions (for an intuitive definition of most) that's going to mean you have a high probability of having n=26

if your distribution for n was p(26) is 1 in 10 trillion and p(27) is 1 minus that, then you wouldn't be very sure that it was n=26, because even if you get 1000 samples and only 26 unique letters, for it to be n=26 you would be betting for a 1 in 10 trillion chance

i guess more mathematically, it's reasonable i think to say that for p(A | B) to be defined you first need to have p(A) defined

[plush sun]

I have to ask, though, why would that be 1 in 10 trillion?

Though I will be honest, I am completely OK with conceding that it's impossible to determine, I was just curious 😄

[crystal spruce]

that being?

if you meanp(n = 26 | 26 unique), it probably isn't
i just meant that like for it to be n = 26 it would first have had to roll a 1 in 10 trillion chance

[crystal spruce]

it might not be entirely impossible to try and get something similar to your intuition
i think if you consider the distribution to be uniform on [1, ..., N], the probability of it being 26 after getting 26 unique letters should decrease as N gets larger, since intuitively you should have more unique letters that it could roll
so you could define it to be the limit (assuming it converges, i think it should) as N goes to infinity

[plush sun]

I think that would make sense if there were more than 26 unique letters, but it's not really the case for our example

[crystal spruce]

well if you know there are only 26 possible letters then you'd probably just take the uniform distribution from 1 to 26
or maybe not, could be reasonable to weight it by binomial coefficients

[plush sun]

But as more samples come in, I think that distribution should narrow in one direction or another

[crystal spruce]

yeah, it would narrow as you get more samples, but you still need the initial distribution with 0 samples, i.e. a distribution for n, to get started

[plush sun]

That's a good point, but I feel like you can determine it by looking at the samples

[crystal spruce]

yeah i do understand that, and i'm not confident enough with probability to definitively say there isn't a way to capture that intuition in a definition
the closest i can think of is something like
"how many samples do i need to take until i can be at least 95% sure that for any uniform distribution of n values,n=26?"
because there is no "being at least 95% sure" for every distribution, because you can always construct distributions to prevent n=26 from being likely enough to get to 95%

but for uniform distributions, and probably most reasonable distributions that number should exist

anyways this has been long enough of a nerdsnipe I should sleep

I have work tmr

[noble crypt]

he tuckered himnself out

https://tenor.com/view/out-done-outcold-sleep-knocked-gif-13591433

[idle elbow]

just enabled strict preset for type checker

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

why did i even code like this

[vale raven]

Lol
Running Ruff for the first time on 12,000 lines was… _an experience _

Like 6k issues

[idle elbow]

so true

ruff is so rough :shivermetimbers:

and tough 😫

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/751480380632334457/1257747973023072256/togif-8.gif

[vale raven]

Mypy strict was “fun” too
At least Ruff errors are easy to fix

I tried ty again yesterday
When I first tried it, it gave me like 4k false positives
But yesterday it only had 18 flags total, and most of them looked reasonable

[idle elbow]

lmao

man

some linters are on a different level 😭

[thick ore]

if you've properly configured your linter then blame the code, not the linter

[shell raptor]

basedpyright has a baseline feature that lets you gradually fix type errors while preventing new ones

(if you actually want strict type checking, that is; it's perfectly fine to just program without any type annotations)

[open cliff]

go with C, it always runs until you're out of RAM. unless you get the dreaded segfault

dont mind the overflow, just as long as the kernel is fine

[modern tinsel]

same, but if you learn to use the strictest settings all the time, it realy helps. (Also, you'll see what stdlib stuff has errors xd)

[round pendant]

the humble -Wall + clang-tidy + cppcheck

[shell raptor]

make sure to always check the c preprocessor

are they doing okay?

[idle elbow]

true

....wait how and when am i gotta fix 600 gosh darn errors-
welp at least it works :shrug:

[thick osprey]

@vale raven I saw the greatest hackweek project today. You would have loved it. Bunch of folks say "we don't have one way to document our sources for data queries".

So they build automation for documenting discovered sources, how to use them, and other details.

Just download an excel spreadsheet from Sharepoint. Fill in the rows according to the instructions. Hit submits. Python then parses all that information, formats it, structures it into markdown. Then that markdown is wired to a github repo in a PR. From that PR (auto-approved if checks pass) the markdown is fed into mkdocs and the static site is updated.

I love data engineers.

[vale raven]

This sounds like a neat project.
I’m already mentally planning how to use SharePoint Lists or Forms to remove the (albeit minimal) clunk of stepping out of SharePoint to use Excel.
I wonder if they’re using Power Automate or if some microservice is running that Python?

Aaaaa

What have you doneeee

You know once my brain starts spinning it can’t stop on its own

[thick osprey]

Me: Oh, I'll just spin up a static page with a few forms and submit that to a lambda which creates the PR.

Data Engineers: How tall can we make this stack?

But it's was a cool project. On of the top three for sure this quarter. From the sounds of it, it's already being heavily used.

[vale raven]

Do the users for this app have GitHub licenses?

[thick osprey]

Yeah, they are all part of the company's technology licensing.

[vale raven]

I would consider form-based GitHub Issues
Take what you were putting into Excel, put that in the form instead, then the GitHub Actions workflow can run automatically on a new issue being opened

I will spend a lot of effort trying my very best to make something work in a single app before I have to involve another app

But also
GitHub is pretty cool nowadays
I built out inter-company ticketing system complete with email notifications and kanban boards for free in GitHub

[thick osprey]

That's a good point. I'll have to remember this when I'm building a github app next week.

next week? month? when do I go back to work anyway....

How time flies. Almost only 10 months until spoopy season again.

[jovial oriole]

https://youtu.be/OJGppzYB5lY?si=vZtisM18co1DiUA_

I added an engine to the racecar game i am making

[noble crypt]

morning

[idle elbow]

i fixed like 500 errors in total

now i have like 100 errors left

but they are hard

[raw depot]

little late now, but if you use ruff it can auto-fix some of those, like the unused imports

plus it's faster by a wide margin than every other linting tool out there

[sick patio]

yeah we have been very happy with ruff

[thick osprey]

@vale raven so far, it's pretty snappy. Some keybinds aren't what I think they are but that's normal.

[vale raven]

This is Zed?

Seems clean

Looks almost exactly the same as VSC

Guess the layout works

[thick osprey]

I'll have to try it on the work machine. I think the editor is cleared for use. It feels a bit snappier than vscode.

oh... it has a built in symbol search and it's fuzzy across files. I like that.

[vale raven]

Oh I really am not a fan of (whatever the line numbers starting from 1 in both directions is called)

[thick osprey]

You probably don't use vim motions.

[vale raven]

I HATE it when I'm scrolling through linter logs and glancing at the line numbers to double check myself

[thick osprey]

I turned that all on. Default experience would be difficult to tell you aren't in vscode.

[vale raven]

Yeah I only use vim on servers

And even that's only to debug when the Ansible breaks

[thick osprey]

Well, I'm curious enough to try this at work if it's allowed. Might try it at home, but to tonight I've already had my fill of configuring things.

[vale raven]

tonight I've already had my fill of configuring things

that's not a real thing

[thick osprey]

If they had an "import keybinds from vscode" then we'd be in business.

[turbid oyster]

https://tenor.com/view/ash-baby-ash-baby-silly-gif-11511986892593940244

light mode sucks

[wooden silo]

We found a duck, may we grill it?

[thick osprey]

Thanks for your opinion on it!

[thick ore]

warm take: with modern computers, if everything were a webview, it could still run well

genuinely wouldnt mind if my wm/de was a big webview

[acoustic moss]

yikes

[thick osprey]

Ah the era of "when cloudflare or AWS goes down, I can't log into my desktop environment" approaches.

[stark prawn]

windows 12 always online depending on azure

[thick osprey]

The day approaches.

[paper sequoia]

Would windows 12 also come with monthly subscription and if you want to do something you need to ask AI to do it (opening file, searching web, opening game, etc) for "convenience"

[stark prawn]

An agentic OS, great idea

[paper sequoia]

The subscription is there for just, well, money, it provides no addition but if you miss payments your computer won't work AI will automatically log into your bank and ask you to pay, that's all that will work

[marble bay]

https://x.com/pavandavuluri/status/1987942909635854336

We have that already in win11

Pavan Davuluri (@pavandavuluri)

Windows is evolving into an agentic OS, connecting devices, cloud, and AI to unlock intelligent productivity and secure work anywhere. Join us at #MSIgnite to see how frontier firms are transforming with Windows and what’s next for the platform. We can’t wait to show you!

X · Nov 10, 2025, 5:58 PM

[thick osprey]

Frontier firms. I'm already tired of hearing that one.

[paper sequoia]

Well, in that case just call the function enshittification() on the current product and export to Windows 12 as "new and shiny" thing

[tardy rain]

What are frontier firms

Are we going back out on the trail?

[wooden silo]

Well, everything else is gonna be down anyway, might as well go outside for a bit

[lament cairn]

while making otherwise perfectly usable older computers awful to use

or outright useless

[jaunty wraith]

firms on the bleeding edge
emphasis on bleeding

[shell raptor]

I am also trying out Zed. Very happy for now

I even ported my color scheme from vscode https://github.com/decorator-factory/zed-dark-as-heck/blob/trunk/screenshot.png

(it's mildly diabolical with the background being #000 and the text being #fff, not to your taste I suppose)

I didn't manage to build it correctly from source, maybe I'm missing something

(also the binary I got was over a gigabyte, which doesn't seem right)

it seems like there are two binaries, zed and zed-editor, and cargo build only builds zed-editor, or something

[noble crypt]

LIGHT MODE

[harsh tundra]

Afaik in win 11 you already can't login to a fucking recovery mode if you don't have Internet connection. Fucking recovery mode which you might need to access because your network drivers got fucked up or you have malware and don't want it to access the network...

[marble bay]

yep, ran into that a few days back

[paper sequoia]

🥴 why would they do that

[harsh tundra]

Idk. With how they have many native technologies for windows, they redid a start menu in a fucking react.
And they admitted around 30% of new code is vibecoded. And win 11 regularly has some update that fucks something up completely
Connect the dots

[bleak lintel]

macos for the win

[turbid oyster]

windows start menu

[paper sequoia]

Money

[marble bay]

I would like to present to you, windows, running like shit on my laptop with 32 gigs of ram

and it takes up 12 gigs IDLING

[paper sequoia]

Windows is just a little hungry and likes to feed on your RAM

[thick osprey]

Yes, quite observant of you.

[thick osprey]

There's something missing in it for me. I haven't quite figured out how to put it in words yet. Over-all, I quite like it as an option.

[noble crypt]

I thought you didn't notice it

now you do

[thick osprey]

No worries there :P It would be the only dark mode app on my screen and I wouldn't be able to read it. haha

[reef bay]

I decided to write a book for Python
please feel free to contribute
https://python-all-levels-book.vercel.app/

.
. )

[tardy rain]

What else do you have in light mode

Most apps i use at work look atrocious in dark mode

Jira is the worst offender

[harsh tundra]

In general: Websites adding dark mode just to be trendy but without any thought put into it (e.g
adjusting colours for nice ux, to still have easily recognisable buttons etc, instead if becomes just a muddy looking website)

[thick osprey]

A vendor I work with closely released new dashboards for their site. The confused look on the dev's face during the meeting when I asked "How do I switch it to light mode?" Priceless moment.

Their product owner realizing moments later there was no light mode.... also a priceless look in their face.

[soft violet]

https://tenor.com/view/star-trek-bright-light-gif-12102399198230618243

[vale raven]

What does dark mode look like for you?
I know you say you can't see dark mode well. I can't see light mode well a lot of the time.
I use dark mode not just "because it's dark", but also because it tends to be higher contrast which helps me read.

[thick osprey]

It looks like dark mode. However, where many don't seem to have an issue reading light words on dark backgrounds, my eyes protest. I struggle to read. A lot of time I struggle to even see the full text. If I have to read dark-mode for too long I'll get a headache.

[vale raven]

Dark mode looks like dark mode

Yeah I guess I should have expected that

[thick osprey]

heh. What does red look like to you?

Difficult to describe.

[vale raven]

Depends on the shade
And the angle of my screen
Practically every day I glance at a mod/admin/owner and go "when did their role change??" then click on it and see I just got the color wrong

[thick osprey]

I used to enjoy dark mode. Heck, when I was growing up the only mode was dark mode. Black (or green) screens with amber pixels.

[vale raven]

BTW Preocts did you meet your writing goal?
I thought you had until the end of the month but I remember you saying today was your last day.

[thick osprey]

Sometime around 2010 ish it just started giving me headaches. I switched to lighter modes and headaches went away. Around 2021 I finally switched my console and editors away. I'd already been using "brighter" dark modes by then though.

Current progress: https://trackbear.app/@preocts

Got ~7k works to go and haven't recorded the progress today yet.

~1.2 words in for the evening and just taking a stretch break. Another two hours of writing planned.

Not nearly as strong as my 2024 run. But, that's okay.

[noble crypt]

morning

bit of a rant I actually hate the advice of go out and touch grass

grew up playing the sports ball

on Face Fly infested Fields

[echo crypt]

go touch grass

[wooden silo]

Isn't it just telling people to go outside and do stuff outdoors?

[obsidian summit]

Hahahahahahhahah

[noble crypt]

you don't know where that grass has been

https://tenor.com/view/what-surprised-gif-25739412

[wooden silo]

I guess someone may have moved that lawn from elsewhere...

[noble crypt]

yes

[wooden silo]

You know what makes grass grow? Feces.

[noble crypt]

and time

The most important Ingredient in growth.

[noble crypt]

Good night pals

[astral nebula]

hii

brothers please help me i am in trouble

[teal lynx]

Yo

Does anyone know how do I change my ip address

[vale raven]

You have to ask your question

[vale raven]

Internal or external?

[teal lynx]

Is there a difference?

[carmine apex]

@hushed girder
the first problem is asking the chance of either of two outcomes occurring n times in n tests. the probability of one of these events happen is the per-test probability (here, either 2/3 or 1/3) to the power of the number of tests. since we want either, not just one, we add them up. heads are (2/3)^3 or 8/27, tails are (1/3)^3 or 1/27, and the sum is 9/27, which simplifies to 1/3.

the second problem wants to know the odds of trials 1 and 2 matching and trials 3 and 4 matching, with 4 trails total. this is equivalent to saying the odds of a pair happening twice. similar to problem A, a specific pair is (odds per test)^2, and either pair is the sum of them for both heads and tails - (2/3)^2 + (1/3)^2 = 4/9 + 1/9 = 5/9. But since we want a pair to happen twice, we then square that probability, to make 5/9 into 25/81.
If curious, the indivual probabilities are 16/81 HHHH, 4/81 HHTT, 4/81 TTHH, and 1/81 TTTT

[grave cove]

yeah

[hushed girder]

I'm bad at math, i said that as a joke, but thank you so much, i understand something from it

[teal lynx]

What is it then

What's the difference

[grave cove]

your internal address is not accessible from outside
It’s called NAT (network address translation) and is a hack to get more devices on the internet than there are addresses

[timid oxide]

why is your phone pregnant

[noble crypt]

I know what kind of man you are.

https://tenor.com/view/doakes-gif-6639449054247309135

[marble bay]

@severe wadi @outer bloom
#1444228236031561808 message

Confirmed to be improper handling of sys.ps1 with multiple lines

[outer bloom]

something about finding an actual "bug" in an "official" python production is actually kinda cool to me

[marble bay]

heh yeah, I just found one for the first time the other day, also in the new pyrepl, which is why I even thought about ps1

[outer bloom]

makes me realize that everyone makes mistakes ig

[outer bloom]

thats so cool

[marble bay]

I'll write up a comment and see if I can locate the problematic bit

the video is still uploading lmao

there we go

(I sent that along with the original message)

[outer bloom]

oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh interesting

[marble bay]

the new repl's input just changes sys.ps1 instead of printing the prompt

which is why this does not occur when running scripts

[outer bloom]

my initial guess was it rerendering the current line every time you type a character, but cant tell properly what the current line is because of the newline. but then i remembered it happens for all escape characters. so ive no clue

[severe wadi]

mmm

[supple tree]

who's phone is preganant o_O???

[willow narwhal]

Lemon's phone

Was, many years ago

Little baby phone is about five now

[marble bay]

https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/139465#issuecomment-3591589993 \b \t \r and \v are still causing issues in the PR and looking at the changes that seems to be completely unrelated to the while-loop-fix

[turbid oyster]

use a VPN

[turbid oyster]

how can a 5 year old still develop inside the womb?

[worthy oracle]

omg it's kasumi

[wooden silo]

@turbid oyster

[outer bloom]

yes!

[worthy oracle]

:kasumiAYAYA:

[turbid oyster]

https://tenor.com/view/cypek-joker-cyprianbanino-mikrocypek-smiesznek-gif-5056407552944363124

[outer bloom]

wait your steam profile is so based

[worthy oracle]

lolol

wow p5r is your favorite game

what a coincidence

me too

[outer bloom]

its definitely my hyper obsession

along with the rest of the persona games but p5 is my favorite

[wooden silo]

It's the only one I played

[worthy oracle]

LOVES persona

[wooden silo]

But it was very good

[outer bloom]

my steam lol

[wooden silo]

I kept listening to the soundtrack for years afterwards

[outer bloom]

the entire series soundtrack is incredible

UNFORTUNATELY its not my favorite game OST anymore

as much as id like to say it is, expedition 33 soundtrack is better

[wooden silo]

I feel like you ought to feel fortunate if you find one that's better

[outer bloom]

yeah thats true

[teal lynx]

Bro that won't get me unbanned

Have you ever played on minemen club before?

[outer bloom]

une vie a'taimer from expedition 33, especially if you have the context of the game & the lyrical translation, is my favorite gaming OST ever now

its also easily the longest song on my playlist, 11 minutes !

[wooden silo]

My friends kept trying to pitch me that game earlier this year.

[turbid oyster]

oh you got banned off of minemen, they have the 2nd best anticheat that also covers banning users, there is no known method to bypass their bans currently

[worthy oracle]

your favorite game is p5r... yet your pfp is makoto... interesting

[wooden silo]

But I don't have any hardware to run it on.

[outer bloom]

so when i made my profile i hadnt played 4 yet

[teal lynx]

You can't bypass minemen's bans?

[outer bloom]

my discord is p5 and so i wanted to make my steam the other one

[turbid oyster]

nope, you can't bypass hypixel's either

[outer bloom]

that sucks, its really good. its similar tier to persona for me

p5r has my favorite character in fiction, expedition 33 has the only other character whos close

[worthy oracle]

who's your favorite character in fiction

[wooden silo]

I'm planning on buying a new gaming PC at some point in the near future, I'll play it then

[outer bloom]

its actually not kasumi lol she just had the most profile-picturable image in the style i wanted
its Takuto Maruki

[turbid oyster]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/768921181184065546/1048316411291906048/image0-4.gif

why wont alpine install diskless

[worthy oracle]

based based based

[wooden silo]

Hm, do I have a favorite character in fiction?

What do you base that choice on?

It's like, some characters are good at being what they are

Or they represent some idea really well

Or something like that

[outer bloom]

i think my current top 3 are maruki, closely followed by the final antagonist of e33 which i shall not name for spoiler reasons, and then probably Noah from xenoblade chronicles 3

[wooden silo]

But it feels hard to pick a single one

[outer bloom]

for me its maruki because ||he is just so incredibly compelling as an antagonist|| ive never seen it anywhere else

spoilered that in the unlikely event someone who hasnt played it that will eventually play it reads that

[noble crypt]

hhm

[teal lynx]

But how come I bypassed it a couple of times when I didn't intend to after my wifi was turned off over night

[wooden silo]

I feel like I played too many games, read too many books and watched too many movies. I can come up with several really good characters probably, but I can't feel in my bones that any one of them is superior to the others.

[noble crypt]

favorite hero hmmm

[outer bloom]

i think for me it comes character-to-character. there's just some X factor certain characters have that comes as a result of their execution, the context they're defined in, uniqueness, motives, etc... some combinations of these things are pretty common and so even really powerful versions of these archetypes fall kind of short of characters that are similarly compelling but also impressively original.

[wooden silo]

Some characters certainly have more X factor than others. But I still don't feel like there's a single one that stands out.

[outer bloom]

i also agree with this, i am lucky to have a definite favorite, but beyond the first 2-3 its a complete toss-up, a tier list would be better suited. there's some standouts for sure but its impossible to make an exact rating

one that always comes to mind for me is Zuko from ATLA

a "kids" show has no right making a character that good..

[noble crypt]

the mc from Emeniance in the shadow has been most notable in the last few years for me, but to each their own

[wooden silo]

Gollum might be up there for me, actually. His arc is just so compelling.

He's despicable, but at the same time it's so easy to empathize with him.

[outer bloom]

i watched LOTR when i was young and dont remember almost any of it. i should watch it again now that i can comprehend a story lol

[wooden silo]

Oh, please do.

[noble crypt]

season 1-3 Patrick star

[outer bloom]

i feel like i should have more characters up there that arent from anime/manga/games but im ngl most of the real/western media ive consumed i dont think the characters are on that level

breaking bad was good, jesse and walt probably the highlights

[noble crypt]

omni man

batman the animated series bruce wayne

[wooden silo]

Oh, err, J. K. Simmons character in Whiplash. He's definitely way up there for me.

That movie in general is just fucking amazing.

[outer bloom]

OH ok yeah your right

fletcher

[noble crypt]

all the mans

[outer bloom]

invincible has some good characters, idk if they are all the way up there from what has been adapted.

[turbid oyster]

you were prob just temp banned

[noble crypt]

they butchered, Amber

I read all of invincible

in about 4 nights

that was no healthy

[outer bloom]

wanna talk abt not healthy? its almost 7 am here. i am not an early riser.

i simply have not been to sleep yet

[wooden silo]

Heath Ledger's Joker was really good, too.

[outer bloom]

i heard, didnt watch it

[noble crypt]

I never went to go watch it

if I could have my way the last super hero movie I would of watched would of been iron man 2

*in release order

[wooden silo]

That whole movie became just something that rotated around Heath Ledger. He completely overshadowed everyone else in the cast.

[noble crypt]

I think actually stopped at winer solder or that captain america verse iron man film

weenier solider

[outer bloom]

there are some characters like that where i think they are actually held back by being too good for their medium/IP

example: N from pokemon. excellent character, S tier. but hes stuck in pokemon. not a lot of room for depth honestly, hes fighting a losing battle

[noble crypt]

Team manga was correct and moral.

https://tenor.com/view/pokemon-groudon-primal-omega-ruby-alpha-sapphire-gif-21954426

I don't remember in detail team manga poltical stances

[wooden silo]

I think it's the same in every culture and time period. The vast majority of all fiction media is pretty crap, and then there's a thin sliver of amazing stuff on top.

[noble crypt]

too much nuance clearly one era is responsible for all good

and the others are reposible for all the bad

[high sierra]

Hey everyone! 👋
Jsweb is out, but I need the community's help to make it better. If you have time to test it out or contribute code, please jump in!
https://jsweb-framework.site/
https://pypi.org/project/jsweb/
Any feedback (good or bad) helps a ton. Let me know what you think!

JsWeb is a lightweight, full-stack Python web framework that combines Flask-style simplicity with Django-level power. It includes routing, templates, models, and automatic migrations for building apps fast with clean structure.

[wooden silo]

!rule ad

[royal lake]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[wooden silo]

And especially not spamming it in multiple channels.

[high sierra]

sorry

[outer bloom]

thats true honestly, ive probably consumed thousands of different media and yet the list of them which i actually hold in the level of high regard ive been talking about is certainly less than 100, perhaps less than 50

[high sierra]

i am new and it takes some time to understand

[noble crypt]

yes

[wooden silo]

Fortunately, at least for me, things don't have to be S-tier for me to enjoy them. I can enjoy a regular big mac once in a while as well.

[noble crypt]

Jones Peter Contribute, what is your favorite fictional character

[high sierra]

not an ad i just an unlucky developer no one even touched my package since i relesed

[outer bloom]

i just wouldnt post about it like this, if you want feedback, post in #1035199133436354600 just saying "this is my framework, can I get feedback".

[wooden silo]

It's still an ad, even if you're not selling anything.

[high sierra]

thank you karma

[outer bloom]

yeah thats why i differentiated between "enjoying" and "holding in that level of high regard"

[high sierra]

understood sir

[wooden silo]

Yep, makes sense

[outer bloom]

prime example: Dexter. i love that show but some absolute NONSENSE happens sometimes, objectively speaking i would not say it is "well written" its just great entertainment

[wooden silo]

I watched a few seasons, I think.

It had a fun concept, at least to start with.

[outer bloom]

i think it has a problem where you can kinda "get the point" yeah

but theres some highlights worth sticking around for

[wooden silo]

It's like a lot of manga. They have an interesting concept, but you can only rely on that concept for so long. To be truly great, the greatness has to be pervasive.

[outer bloom]

namely new blood, resurrection, season 4 of the original series and maybe season 7. the first 2 seasons too but you havent even had a chance to fall off before that

[wooden silo]

And most kinda run out of steam once the novelty wears off.

[outer bloom]

yeah

some manga are great despite a lack of interesting concept, too

[wooden silo]

Indeed. Honestly, I think being S-tier is pretty much all just execution.

[outer bloom]

frieren is one of my favorite manga series and technically speaking nothing is unique whatsoever about the premise

[wooden silo]

Well, the whole deal with her outliving her party members is a bit original.

[outer bloom]

yeah but that isnt really the focus after like, the first few chapters

its definitely a persistent character trait but its not the "premise" i think

[wooden silo]

I think it's the premise in the sense that it's how I explain what it's about to people

[outer bloom]

true

[noble crypt]

campfire cooking in another world with my absurd skills

[outer bloom]

there are actually examples i can think of where you CAN just rely on the concept the whole time because its THAT good

example: death note

show about a world where there is a death note

the entire thing is just unraveling the premise

[wooden silo]

Hm, but Death Note has pretty decent execution as well. Though I feel like it really gets weaker in the second half, for the reason that the concept has worn out its welcome.

Like, the author can't ||drag out the duel with L forever, and once L dies, the show has nowhere to go.||

[outer bloom]

i hear that a lot, i think it is definitely weaker after the "critical point" (i say for spoiler reasons) but i dont think its as bad as everyone says

it maybe feels a little more contrived or unrealistic (even in the circumstances)

but i dont think its "worn out"

[wooden silo]

The relationship between Light and L feels like "the story" to me.

So there's little point in it after that.

imo

To each their own.

I really liked Death Note when it was coming out (I'm old), but it's not really one of my favorites.

[outer bloom]

i think the anime's existence is a miracle. particularly the dub. dubs just dont sound like that, before or since. everything from the sound quality to the actual acting to the pronunciations of foreign words to the localization

genuinely insane

[wooden silo]

Ah, I never watch dubbed anime.

So I don't know what it sounds like

[outer bloom]

i dont either, but death note dub is one of the exceptions

its GENUINELY categorically better than the sub IMO and i pretty much only watch sub

like when i compare the two i dont feel like the sub is the original version.

[wooden silo]

There are some animated movies released dubbed in my country where I think the dub is superior to the original VA.

Mainly because the original VA has an unknown cast and they sometimes cast famous domestic actors to do the dub.

[outer bloom]

i just cant imagine watching death note in sub tbh, even the few shows i watch in dub (which it has to have a really good dub for me to do that, like above and beyond), i can watch in sub, in fact usually i think they are about equal. but death note is actually the only one where i cannot listen to the sub because i miss the english voices so much. L and Light especially feel like they were BORN to play those roles

[worthy oracle]

btw

[outer bloom]

and they take a lot of considerations i just dont see in modern anime even though its like 20 years after the fact. like there are times when L will speak while eating, and im like 99% sure they actually get the VA to eat the same thing IRL when recording their lines. among other things i cant really quantify

[noble crypt]

nice theme pal

[worthy oracle]

i know

[outer bloom]

i love seeing antoher person with my obsession

[noble crypt]

what is persona anyway I've only heard a few ost track from

persona 4

[outer bloom]

OH BOY

you cannot get me started man ..

[worthy oracle]

SIGNS OF LOVEEEE OVERSHADOWSSS BAD DREAMSS

[outer bloom]

its like the best series ever..

[noble crypt]

makes me think of juice world reading that

am too zoomer maybe

[worthy oracle]

im obsessed with the persona 5 UI too

literally masterpiece

[outer bloom]

5 and 3 reload uis are gorgeous

[noble crypt]

it is game?

[worthy oracle]

3 reload is uhhhh a bit lacking

[outer bloom]

it is a game series

[worthy oracle]

but still very good

[noble crypt]

single or multiplayer

[outer bloom]

they are 3d animations

woops

wrong reply

[outer bloom]

they are 3d animations

[outer bloom]

single

its a story based game

[worthy oracle]

single player grocery simulator

[outer bloom]

💀

https://tenor.com/bhDw1.gif

[noble crypt]

I thought it was more quest driven

[worthy oracle]

*moans*

[noble crypt]

its turn based?

[worthy oracle]

yea

[outer bloom]

so between the 3 games theres a few things that stay the same, but all of them have completely different stories and you can play them mostly in any order

[worthy oracle]

look at how pretty the UI is

and this is like a 10 fps gif

in 60 fps it makes me orgasm

[outer bloom]

i think 4 should come after 3 because 4 makes a lot of references to 3 but you dont technically have to

[wooden silo]

It's a JRPG franchise

[noble crypt]

start 1?

[worthy oracle]

actually it's a UX reference library

[noble crypt]

*start at one?

[outer bloom]

ignore 1 and 2

[wooden silo]

Each installment is independent, afaik

[outer bloom]

most people dont play them, they are very very old and dont have the format of the modern games

maybe one day they'll get a remake

[worthy oracle]

persona starts at 3, they just never made persona 1 and 2 (/jk)

[wooden silo]

I only played 5, and I wasn't confused about anything

[outer bloom]

persona 5 royal and persona 3 reload are modern games released very recently

persona 4 golden is also very worth playing but its a ps2 game

so it doesnt look nearly as good

[worthy oracle]

it's a soundtrack that also comes with a UX library

[outer bloom]

despite that its my 2nd favorite

[outer bloom]

so true

[worthy oracle]

you dont know what "polished software" means until you see persona 5

[thick ore]

persona aint even allat

[outer bloom]

in persona 5, its modern day japan setting, but with a supernatural element. there's a "metaverse" a sort of parallel world no one knows about (except the protagonist who finds out about it early in the game, kicking off the story).

the metaverse is a reflection of the real world except things reflect what people "believe". so if someone "believes" that they are the "king" of the school they teach at (because they are a narcissist) then the school will literally be a castle that they are literally the king of in the metaverse.

not only do real world things effect the metaverse though, the opposite is also true, which is key to the plot. if you then attacked and defeated that king IN the metaverse, their REAL self would stop being a narcissistic loser and become a functioning member of society.

so the basic plot is you band together with a bunch of friends you find throughout the story to use the metaverse to reform society, taking down criminals, mafia bosses, even governmental tyrants (and beyond..)

this is like, the footnotes. youd get the rest from actually playing

the elevator pitch so to speak

[worthy oracle]

the basic plot is that you eat a burger at a fast food restaurant everyday for 2 weeks until you can date the student council president

[outer bloom]

shockingly, that is all 3 games

[wooden silo]

If only mental health issues were so easily treated in real life.

[outer bloom]

||literally the character Takuto Maruki||

did you play royal or vanilla

[worthy oracle]

p5r is all about mental health issue

[wooden silo]

Vanilla

[outer bloom]

oh thats why

vanilla is like a 7/10

royal is a 10/10

[wooden silo]

Having played no other persona games, I'd say it was a 10/10

[outer bloom]

vanilla has some serious story issues and some gameplay problems

[worthy oracle]

some people find the plot lacking, but I myself cannot find fault with it

[wooden silo]

Just no real weaknesses imo

[outer bloom]

royal is a massive glowup even to this

[worthy oracle]

one of my motivation for programming is to be able to create a piece of software that can wow people like p5r did to me

[outer bloom]

https://tenor.com/bDdU9.gif

[wooden silo]

I mean, the plot is... Y'know, pretty normal as far as manga/anime goes.

[outer bloom]

this is my king btw

#1 character in fiction btw

also his VA died :(((

[worthy oracle]

RIP

[wooden silo]

It's cause the metaverse affects real life.

[noble crypt]

did yandere dev ever finish his game

[outer bloom]

no

[worthy oracle]

i should cosplay as kasumi one day

eventually

[noble crypt]

I think he worked harder on making youtube content for his game rather then the game itself, I remember enjoying the trailers more then i did the game, but i chalked it up to my pc at the time being underpowered

[outer bloom]

i dont wanna spoil the character in the 1% chance you ever play royal but maybe you can see the hype with the premise:

he's a therapist who found out through Futaba's mom about "cognitive pscience" (basically what people who dont know about the metaverse call the stuff that happens because of the metaverse) and he begins researching it as a way to "heal" mental illness in the same way that you can put a band-aid on a cut, if that makes sense. a way to make people happy by treating their cognition directly rather than trying to just help them through their trauma. he does this because he himself has had everything taken from him at one point or another. he is the kindest soul ever and all he wants to do is help people

[outer bloom]

ive thought about cosplaying akechi because im about his build and hair color lol

[worthy oracle]

im literally p5 makoto height and hair color

[outer bloom]

unlucky

[wooden silo]

Hm, sounds like a character that fits into the setting.

[worthy oracle]

why

[outer bloom]

no unnaturally red hair

for kasumi

lol

[worthy oracle]

lol

i have a hairtie with a ribbon though

[outer bloom]

the execution is what makes him my #1 of all time

[worthy oracle]

i just realized

my birth date is like

[outer bloom]

dont need it if you have glasses

[worthy oracle]

a few days from kasumi

[outer bloom]

does she have a canon one?

[worthy oracle]

yea

[outer bloom]

wait im exactly one month from akechis birth date

[worthy oracle]

you are older than me then

[outer bloom]

oh no not including the year

im 20

[worthy oracle]

damn

they never made a persona for your age cohort...

[outer bloom]

yeah ;/ thats what metaphor is ig

[noble crypt]

unc

[outer bloom]

NOOOO its too early for me to be unc man IM STILL YOUNG I CANT EVEN DRINK YET

[obsidian summit]

america moment

[noble crypt]

good morning sir

[outer bloom]

just because i got a 2 in my age doesnt mean im unc... surely old has to be at least like.. 27 right

i got a couple more years left in me

[wooden silo]

That makes me a great-unc

[noble crypt]

gramps

[wooden silo]

grand-unc?

[outer bloom]

there are a couple people in this server that are like, older than C++ i think

actually more than that c++ is kinda young

apparently

[noble crypt]

those are elders

[outer bloom]

40 yrs

[wooden silo]

I'm 3 years younger than C++.

Ned's almost as old as my dad, though.

[noble crypt]

where you when the apple 2 was brand new

[outer bloom]

really ?!??!

[wooden silo]

Yeah

[outer bloom]

funny thing is my dad might be older than your dad, i was born pretty late

MAYBE not likely

but MAYBE