ot1-perplexing-regexing

[vocal oyster]

but with a 🤓 on top

[quasi blaze]

What are some moment of truth scenarios?

For example, waiting for a verdict in court is one

A penalty shootout for a soccer game is another

[tardy rain]

Flushing

😳

[grave cove]

my guy

💀

[thick osprey]

I've no doubt that you would. My statement was about words themselves and not the articulation of them. :)

[tardy rain]

Im on a bulk 😩

[grave cove]

bro is bulking

[tardy rain]

💪💪

[fresh basalt]

I made someone angry and they left the server.

oops

[grave cove]

:(

[fresh basalt]

Although I think they were more upset that people weren't agreeing with their opinion about ChatGPT

I told them I thought it was okay to have opinions but I didn't think a help thread was the place to argue about them.

[quasi blaze]

I did that too. Leftists don’t get along with me very well

I’m looking forward to Eminem’s new album

Let’s see how many people and the kinds of people that will find him offensive in 2024. Times have changed

It’s doesn’t do anybody any good if you protect the sensitive by putting them in a bubble to be shielded by the offensive.

It’s best practice to step of out that bubble to become resilient to the offensive.

It sounds like a horrible life to live when you are so easily offended

[uneven pine]

For once I actually agree with keezy

[glossy niche]

u gonna do this dumbass shit again ?

[fresh basalt]

https://tenor.com/view/super-troopers-shenanigans-gif-12521650

s/shenanigans/fallacy

[glossy niche]

I'm OK with keezies fallacy posting, in fact, more power to him, just don't go back to complaining about censorship because 90 percent of those complaints sounded like bigot talking points

[quasi blaze]

What are you talking about?

[glossy niche]

that bs I insulted you 40 times over months ago lol

but hey if u alr forgot about it great

[quasi blaze]

About the fallacy posting. I think it’s valuable to know what logical fallacies people pull off in conversations, debates and arguments because people get away with them all the time.

Now you have the tools to dismantle their failed lines of reasoning when I inform everyone them.

“If you don’t like it, then leave.” fallacy was one that I always had trouble with rebutting. Now I know how to defuse that statement

[young shoal]

it doesn't really work when you lose all the nuance

[fresh basalt]

You guys actually like arguing in circles, don't you?

[terse skiff]

good to know

bcuz french ppl

[quasi blaze]

Oh yeah I remember now

You insulting me wasn’t ever about me. It was about the server

[floral viper]

I have yet to discovere where all the good people gather, but the bad ones definitely gather in france

I'm joking haha

Don't you guys in portugal have neighbourly banter with spain?

I'm not even talking experiences here, all the french people I've met were awesome. It's just a joke picking on france

It's like that neghbour city/country that you banter with but you're really friends

sweden/finland and sweden/denmark for example. We pick on each other but we really love each other

[fresh basalt]

Do you?

[floral viper]

No, most swedes think we should have nuked denmark long ago

Finland thinks the same of sweden

[fresh basalt]

I heard a song about that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9NKRZUD9lw

sort of covers all the bases

[glossy niche]

tbh I just enjoy insulting ppl

[fresh basalt]

In general that song was released during the war in Vietnam (you can tell from the third verse) but the fourth verse is:

A way you could interpret that is that people call each other brothers but would just as soon cut their throats as help them.

They joke around with each other and pretend they are friends (Like Denmark and Sweden) but like pucch said "most swedes think we should have nuked denmark long ago"

and I think they are maybe only half-joking

It's just human nature.

I'm probably not smart enough to speculate.

[quasi blaze]

That sounds sadistic

[glossy niche]

I'm just trovalds maxxing

how do i open excel file

ikr

everytime i see someone like that i just think

[glossy niche]

||hey man, follow your leader 🧓🔫 ||

loser ideology

[quasi blaze]

Their military culture is what I couldn’t fathom. Their whole motto is essentially death over surrender, death over capture and etc

They conducted kamikaze attacks and they’re was a percentage of them who completely missed their target

The Japanese empire shares the Bushido philosophy which is not fearing death and dying for valor

It’s very ironic to me because I argue against the Bushido philosophy that sustain life as much as possible which includes fearing death. Fearing death keeps you alive

What a collectivist mindset where you believe that your life is worth losing for over something else

[floral viper]

Lisan understood what I meant. We insult each other, pick on each other, but we are really friends.

The nuke denmark thing is an old joke from an old movie they made about a radical that wants to "force denmark on their knees with plutonium"

Nah, we don't

I think in the movie the villain was going to use nuclear waste from our powerplants

[tardy rain]

That doesnt sound realistic

[jaunty wraith]

movies don't have to be realistic

[floral viper]

I'm talking out of my ass here haha, googled it (never actually seen the movie) and it's just about a doctor that hates denmark

[tardy rain]

They dont but muh disbelief

[floral viper]

What's funny is the doctor is portrayed by a swedish actor, the director is danish, and the actor playing a danish hating mofo so good gave him a danish film price

[glossy niche]

but smart movies are more fun

also, on the topic of movies

[jaunty wraith]

depends

[glossy niche]

"lisan al gaib" makes me cringe every time i hear it

[tardy rain]

Youre reading it

[glossy niche]

its so horribly butchered in pronounciation

[glossy niche]

the flashbacks

the have sound on

[tardy rain]

Sad

[glossy niche]

the "gha" doesnt sound like a G, but rather like a french/german R

and i have no idea where they got the "yee" from

it just sounds lazy asf, like they didnt even bother too look it up on google translate

lisan just means tongue

???

google is a dumbass

[soft violet]

Or perhaps a Chinese person being referred to by a Japanese person.

[glossy niche]

https://www.urdupoint.com/islamic-names/lisan-name-meaning-in-english-1613.html

bruh

who tf names their child

"TONGUE"

i guess it kinda works if the word isnt in your language

[soft violet]

Naming children after virtues was common. Perhaps being well-spoken is considered virtuous.

[glossy niche]

like, ive seen ppl name their children "rimas", which just means "graves"

[soft violet]

It is better, perhaps, than naming your child buttcheek.

[glossy niche]

i guess, but just naming them after a body part isnt implying the virtue

"lisanuh wissekh" for example can mean "his tongue is dirty" as in, he is foul mouthed

me and my endless insulting

[soft violet]

The weirdness, such as it is, may not carry over from English.

[glossy niche]

kinda but its not as common as engllish i believe**

at least in my dialect

https://tenor.com/view/happy-cat-cats-kitten-kittens-gif-8881271268885160153

[harsh tundra]

You could've just googled why he did it

"لسان الغيب"
(lisaan al-ghaib) meaning "tongue of the unseen/missing," It is possible that Herbert intended to reference the metaphysical Sufi application of الغيب, which has been conjectured to connote the 'unseen dimensions of Reality'. If so, Lisan al Gaib may indicate that one is a "prophet" rather than a "foreigner".

https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Lisan_al_Gaib

[quasi blaze]

What is everyone’s thoughts on the Bushido philosophy? Which is not fearing death and dying for valor

[shell raptor]

if you are a cat can you die for valour 9 times? So you could be like super honourable at your last life compared yo humans

if you have a cat army you have an x9 numerical advantage without needing more food

nobody took advantage of this and it's baffling

[young shoal]

respawn timer is too long to make good use

[thick osprey]

Just be a cat?

[shell raptor]

Well you gotta upgrade your res-paw

[thick osprey]

Just be Sam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsinkable_Sam

[shell raptor]

Sounds like skill issue overall

[karmic gust]

very funny that he got the name after the first sinking

[lament cairn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onqqnpByqyA

[harsh tundra]

You... were literally wondering what it means and how Herbert "chose it for some reason", so I literally gave you the full meaning

It's not technically a name, tho, it's more of a title, and not just "Lisan" as well. It's "Lisan al Gaib", the "tongue" here means voice/language. Fremen also talked about "voice from another world" when referring to prophecies Bene Gesserit left

Herbert used a whole phrase from Arabic, not just "an actual word in a middle-eastern language", he knew what he was choosing and chose a full meaning, not just "tongue"

But no prophecy talked about "Jesus", they talked about "Messiah". Same here

Paul's names are: Paul Atreides, Muad'Dib, Usul

Not "Lisan al Gaib", that's what others used for him to mean he's the one of prophecies

[shadow jetty]

@solid elbow i ran this code:

import functools
import sys
import unicodedata

import rich.cells
from batgrl.gadgets.text_tools import char_width


@functools.cache
def str_width(c: str) -> int:
    if ord(c) < 128:
        return 1
    w = unicodedata.east_asian_width(c)
    if w in ("N", "Na", "H", "A"):
        return 1
    return 2


diffs = [
    i for i in range(sys.maxunicode + 1) if str_width(chr(i)) != char_width(chr(i))
]

diffs_rich = [
    i
    for i in range(sys.maxunicode + 1)
    if str_width(chr(i)) != rich.cells.cell_len(chr(i))
]

print(len(diffs), len(diffs_rich))

2009 2937

to get a general idea of how "off" str_width is... it misses on emoji (and a bunch of other stuff)
here's rich's code: https://github.com/Textualize/rich/blob/349042fd8912ab5f0714ff9a46a70ef8a4be4700/rich/cells.py#L48 which should be considered more reliable than batgrl's since there's a billion more eyes on it, but it can also return -1 and char_width will return 0 at min

[quasi blaze]

Logical fallacy of the day: Notable Effort

Notable Effort is accepting good effort as a valid reason to accept the truth of the conclusion, even though the effort is unrelated to the truth.

Logical Form

Person 1 made a notable effort to prove Y.

Therefore, Y is true.

Example #1:

Judge: In all my years as a federal judge I have never seen a defendant make such a good effort to prove his innocence.  As a result, I rule for the defendant.

This is a fallacy. A high amount of effort in an argument doesn’t mean that their claim is valid.

[spice storm]

can sm1 help me with this

@round pendant

this is the py folder

[round pendant]

and you want to import stuff from packages in stuff in progs, right?

[spice storm]

thats correct

[spice storm]

main file im running right now is main2.py

did u figure out smth? @round pendant

[round pendant]

i think you should be able to do from packages.extra import iota in progs/main2.py and run it with py -m progs.main2, or restructure it a bit and use relative paths

[spice storm]

okay ill try

[spice storm]

does this have anything to do with my problem?

is it because i might have unzipped it in some other folder?

i believe i did so inside of packages, coz the downloaded file is basically extra

structure above that is my own

[round pendant]

hmh, was the code supposed to work right away? then maybe

[spice storm]

uhh

[round pendant]

but if your learning resource uses sys.path.append its bad. this is a horrible practice

[spice storm]

do i even have to like make this work or could i skip this?

how important is this in uni

or when i learn oop

[round pendant]

im not sure, depends on the uni.
where did you get the sys.path.append stuff from? was it already there?

[spice storm]

why? (genuinely asking coz idk nun ab all this)

[spice storm]

PCAP certification

im doing that rn

im going to skip this part akshually

ill js learn from the examples theyve given on the course

[round pendant]

its more of an internal detail that shouldnt be touched unless really needed. in this case, the proper way is to structure the project properly and use the import system like normally, which would also not fuck up static analysis tools (like the stuff that gives errors/warnings in IDEs)

[raw crystal]

idk but i think it should be packages.extra.ioto

iota

[round pendant]

^, same thing

[spice storm]

uhh

anyways ty @round pendant @raw crystal

[round pendant]

this is not related to oop at all, this is like, file structure and imports

[spice storm]

oh okay

thats nice then

[raw crystal]

yea

it cant find the module

[raw crystal]

were you able to fix it?

[drowsy rose]

welcome to code gore with your local hivemind fragments of shattered glass

                d0 = ((unsigned long long)h0 * r0) + ((unsigned long long)h1 * s4) + ((unsigned long long)h2 * s3) + ((unsigned long long)h3 * s2) + ((unsigned long long)h4 * s1);
        d1 = ((unsigned long long)h0 * r1) + ((unsigned long long)h1 * r0) + ((unsigned long long)h2 * s4) + ((unsigned long long)h3 * s3) + ((unsigned long long)h4 * s2);
        d2 = ((unsigned long long)h0 * r2) + ((unsigned long long)h1 * r1) + ((unsigned long long)h2 * r0) + ((unsigned long long)h3 * s4) + ((unsigned long long)h4 * s3);
        d3 = ((unsigned long long)h0 * r3) + ((unsigned long long)h1 * r2) + ((unsigned long long)h2 * r1) + ((unsigned long long)h3 * r0) + ((unsigned long long)h4 * s4);
        d4 = ((unsigned long long)h0 * r4) + ((unsigned long long)h1 * r3) + ((unsigned long long)h2 * r2) + ((unsigned long long)h3 * r1) + ((unsigned long long)h4 * r0);

        /* (partial) h %= p */
                      c = (unsigned long)(d0 >> 26); h0 = (unsigned long)d0 & 0x3ffffff;
        d1 += c;      c = (unsigned long)(d1 >> 26); h1 = (unsigned long)d1 & 0x3ffffff;
        d2 += c;      c = (unsigned long)(d2 >> 26); h2 = (unsigned long)d2 & 0x3ffffff;
        d3 += c;      c = (unsigned long)(d3 >> 26); h3 = (unsigned long)d3 & 0x3ffffff;
        d4 += c;      c = (unsigned long)(d4 >> 26); h4 = (unsigned long)d4 & 0x3ffffff;
        h0 += c * 5;  c =                (h0 >> 26); h0 =                h0 & 0x3ffffff;
        h1 += c;
``` this repo has *112 stars*

d0 = ((u64)h0 * r0) +
             ((u64)h1 * s3) +
             ((u64)h2 * s2) +
             ((u64)h3 * s1);
        d1 = ((u64)h0 * r1) +
             ((u64)h1 * r0) +
             ((u64)h2 * s3) +
             ((u64)h3 * s2) +
             (h4 * s1);
        d2 = ((u64)h0 * r2) +
             ((u64)h1 * r1) +
             ((u64)h2 * r0) +
             ((u64)h3 * s3) +
             (h4 * s2);
        d3 = ((u64)h0 * r3) +
             ((u64)h1 * r2) +
             ((u64)h2 * r1) +
             ((u64)h3 * r0) +
             (h4 * s3);```

probably based off the above code, *and this one has 24.6k stars and 10k forks*

your computer is probably pushing this shit to prod

slowly delving into insanity

        st->r[1] = (st->r[0] + TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO0) -
                               TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO0;
        st->r[0] -= st->r[1];

        st->r[3] = (st->r[2] + TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO32) -
                               TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO32;
        st->r[2] -= st->r[3];

        st->r[5] = (st->r[4] + TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO64) -
                               TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO64;
        st->r[4] -= st->r[5];

        st->r[7] = (st->r[6] + TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO96) -
                               TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO96;
        st->r[6] -= st->r[7];

        st->s[1] = (st->s[0] + TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO0/TWO96) -
                               TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO0/TWO96;
        st->s[0] -= st->s[1];

        st->s[3] = (st->s[2] + TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO32/TWO96) -
                               TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO32/TWO96;
        st->s[2] -= st->s[3];

        st->s[5] = (st->s[4] + TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO64/TWO96) -
                               TWO(52)*TWO(16)*TWO64/TWO96;
        st->s[4] -= st->s[5];``` same repo as the above one, *what the fuck does this do*

heck if i know

(tbf, the repo does have deccecnt code, but im still gonna bully it)

probably because i have nothing better to do

            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[0] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(0, a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[1] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(1, h, a, b, c, d, e, f, g);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[2] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(2, g, h, a, b, c, d, e, f);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[3] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(3, f, g, h, a, b, c, d, e);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[4] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(4, e, f, g, h, a, b, c, d);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[5] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(5, d, e, f, g, h, a, b, c);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[6] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(6, c, d, e, f, g, h, a, b);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[7] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(7, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, a);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[8] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(8, a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[9] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(9, h, a, b, c, d, e, f, g);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[10] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(10, g, h, a, b, c, d, e, f);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[11] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(11, f, g, h, a, b, c, d, e);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[12] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(12, e, f, g, h, a, b, c, d);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[13] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(13, d, e, f, g, h, a, b, c);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[14] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(14, c, d, e, f, g, h, a, b);
            (void)HOST_c2l(data, l);
            T1 = X[15] = l;
            ROUND_00_15(15, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, a);``` no, i did not copy paste this twice

moral of the story: ARRAYS AND LOOPS EXIST

[round pendant]

lmao, yeah, this could be.. a bit better

[drowsy rose]

a bit

[round pendant]

mfw when person did loop unrolling manually

[drowsy rose]

it needs to be a terabyte better omfg

[drowsy rose]

actual

there's a lot worse but its in assembly and i'm cutting them some slack

        new->wpd.neighborhood_len--;
        new->wpd.neighborhood_len |= new->wpd.neighborhood_len >> 1;
        new->wpd.neighborhood_len |= new->wpd.neighborhood_len >> 2;
        new->wpd.neighborhood_len |= new->wpd.neighborhood_len >> 4;
        new->wpd.neighborhood_len |= new->wpd.neighborhood_len >> 8;
        new->wpd.neighborhood_len |= new->wpd.neighborhood_len >> 16;
        new->wpd.neighborhood_len++;``` episode 23040914 of c devs dont know what a loop is

.latex $\sum_{x = 0}^{\infty} x!$ V number of times ppl didnt put a loop in the repo omg

[drowsy rose]

oh yay it worked first time

[spice storm]

i did now, by the help of my father

[pliant nexus]

the north's so much juicier than the south, too bad i probably wont settle there since i'm gonna get my ass handed to me by tibet if i do settle 😭

its still ancient era

so i definetly wont be able to get a large enough army to defend the region

[vale raven]

What game is that?

Why does it look like Civ but worse

[pliant nexus]

unciv https://github.com/yairm210/Unciv

[vale raven]

[pliant nexus]

its a remake of civ5

since i'm too broke to buy the actual civ5

[tardy rain]

Civ 5 is like 8£

Civ 6 is 3£

[glossy niche]

was free on epic if you like your spyware in chinese

i think some people like it only if its american tho

[pliant nexus]

perhaps maybe, just maybe, its because i'm from east india?

not because i'm a diehard american patriot

💀

(have a skull to lighten the tone)

[pliant nexus]

settled anyway, let just hope tibet doesnt get blood thirsty 💀

[fresh basalt]

https://freeciv.org/

Freeciv is almost as old as Python.

[pliant nexus]

isnt that for like civ3?

[pliant nexus]

there are so many barb workers rushing to mmy borders right now from tibet

💀

at least 5-6 workers

i think theres a chance they to blasted to orbit by mongolia due to some historical events

i'm fairly certain they are getting massacared since having 6 pop in you capital 120 turns in isnt good
(also the barbs indicate somethign bad as well 💀 )

its a constant stream of workers, settlers and missionaries 💀

i feel like i've just made an accidental colony

[terse skiff]

english or spanish

[vale raven]

https://tenor.com/view/thank-you-por-que-no-gif-23322568

[jaunty wraith]

french

[terse skiff]

el que se mueva es gay

[quasi blaze]

That’s irrelevant to the original argument

What is?

Making a notable effort to your opponent making a notable effort to you providing supporting statements (which is proof in your hypothesis) to your argument X is irrelevant to your argument X. How’s that fallacious?

What do you mean?

I am asking you a legitimate question

I want to understand you

What does making a notable effort to your opponent making a notable effort have to do with the original argument?

You are not answering my question

All right I’ll explain a hypothetical scenario as crystal clear as I can:

A victim got his house burglarized and his TV stolen and goes to the police station to file a report

Victim: My TV got stolen. I have video surveillance to prove it.

*police watches video*
Police: Well I must give you a notable effort for providing such proof.

Victim: I must give you a notable effort for giving me such a notable effort for providing proof.

What does victim’s last statement have anything to do with his original claim that his TV got stolen and the proof that he provided?

Ohhh ok I see

So what if person 1 is able?

Person 1 made a notable effort to prove to themselves that they made a notable effort?

But what would be the topic of the argument in this case?

Sounds like a loop in the logic consistency

Making a notable effort to prove they can make a notable effort for what argument though?

Again, that doesn’t have anything to do with the argument

The variable is suppose to be for the original argument. You’re just changing up the parameters at this point

If you make the variable that they can make a notable effort, you are caught in a logic loop

[vocal oyster]

no way fallacy time

[quasi blaze]

Okay so your example is logically inconsistent

You’re just putting yourself in a loop

[vocal oyster]

the most important element of humanity

arguing with someone and just naming off fallacies to disregard them

[quasi blaze]

He assigned the variable Y to proving that he can make a notable effort when Y is suppose to be for a claim of an argument (which is the base line)

You’re in an infinite loop

I can say making a notable effort to prove that I can make a notable effort that proves I can make a notable effort and beyond

[vocal oyster]

nuh uh

[quasi blaze]

The notable effort fallacy only applies when the notable effort is unrelated to the claim Y and supporting statements behind it

So technically your example didn’t commit the notable effort fallacy

I made a mistake when I said you caught yourself in a logical loop though

You can read more about it here https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Notable-Effort

[young shoal]

why don't you link your source in the initial message

[vocal oyster]

discussion w them needs to be difficult

[quasi blaze]

Because some people don’t like to open links. They are lazy

So I paste them in text and change a few words

[young shoal]

sounds like plagiarism

[granite tree]

Yah, most of them reduce to x does not entail y (or perhaps that's the very definition of a fallacy, shrug)

[terse skiff]

guys im being forced to make an ai gf

[drowsy rose]

skill issue

[drowsy rose]

just refuse

smh

[terse skiff]

to late 😭

[quasi blaze]

It’s great to study logical fallacies so you can easily spot them out in an argument. You’re going to come across manipulative and narcissistic people in your lifetime; They pull off these logical fallacies as tactics and they should be defused.

People deflect, move the goal post and commit strawman in arguments. If you know how to articulate yourself, you can easily dismantle their argument

[bleak lintel]

This is true Keezy, but often the way these discussions have been conducted recently come off as a little bit hostile and end up with people being pretty exhausted. While it meets the criteria of "off topic communication" in my personal opinion (and bear in mind, I am not a moderator or administrator), it kind of goes against the spirits of the community atmosphere that generally we try foster here.

[drowsy rose]

ur a logical fallacy

[bleak lintel]

I understand you saying that it makes you better at debating, but when it does that at the detriment to anyone else that partakes in the discussion it's not really a fair playing field and as per the community rules it's important to bear in mind when the line is crossed between a friendly conversation and a debate. Users don't come here to debate generally, they come here to relax, chill a little and converse on topics they find mutually interesting.

[bleak lintel]

(to clarify, this is not me saying don't do anything, or to change, I'm just saying personally having observed the numerous conversations you have spawned that it might be worth considering the feelings and interests of others when doing this, and considering that most other people here are not here to debate or to be tricked into a debate)

[young shoal]

🗿

[grave cove]

preach

[thick ore]

does this mean no more LFOTD? 😢

[bleak lintel]

hahahaha as mentioned i am not a moderator, nor administrator, this is just my personal take that if this is to continue i think this needs to be said and i don't mind being the one to say it

[low wraith]

My first project I uploaded to github 😭

count = 0
i = 1
CloseStr = "close"
import time
import subprocess
with open('config.cfg', 'r') as f:
    for line in f:
        count += 1
print(""""Number of Games is""", count - 1, '''
Type "close" to close the program''')
def GetNumber():
    G = input("""Type the number of the game you would like.
-->""")
    if G.lower() == CloseStr or G.lower() == "exit" or G.lower() == "quit":
        exit()
    if G.isnumeric():
        game = int(G)
    if not G.isnumeric():
        print("Please enter a number.")
    else:
        try:
            print(content[game])
            print("Loading")
        except:
            print("Please Enter A Valid Number Between 1 and ", count - 1,".", sep='')
            GetNumber()
    try:
        a = content[game].split('=', 1)
        print(a[1])
        b=a[1]
        subprocess.call(b, shell=True)
        time.sleep(1)               
    except:
        GetNumber()    
with open("config.cfg") as f:
    content = f.readlines()
content = [x.strip() for x in content]
while (i < count):
    c = content[i].split('=', 1)
    print(i,c[0])
    i = i + 1
GetNumber()

this is atrocious...

config.cfg

Enter the name of the game followed by equals sign then followed with the directory of the application including the program for example C:\Program Files (x86)\Example\Example.exe, Unless it is a steam game if it is you will want to get the rungameid of the game and after the equals sign type in cd C:\<Your steam location> && Steam.exe steam://rungameid/<the game id> for example cd C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam && Steam.exe steam://rungameid/123456. You can also run commands in command prompt by typing the name you want to name the command followed by a equals sign followed by the command. Example: Close Chrome = TASKILL /IM google.exe

[rich cape]

Is it worth to spend 7 years in college to be a lawyer?

[elfin zenith]

if you are passionate about you can spend nearly a life time

[rich cape]

definetly

[grave cove]

if that's the path of least resistance to your goals then yes

[elfin zenith]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-the-last-jedi-general-hux-snuff-out-first-order-gif-15900414

[acoustic moss]

me when i add a short

[sacred cove]

Jython

[quasi blaze]

Logical fallacy of the day: Unfalsifiability

Unfalsifiability is an argument presented in a form such that it can never be shown to be false. It’s confidently asserting that a theory or hypothesis is true or false even though the theory or hypothesis cannot possibly be contradicted by an observation or the outcome of any physical experiment, usually without strong evidence or good reasons.

Logical form

X is true (when X is cannot possibly be demonstrated to be false)

Example 1

“Aliens exist”

There’s absolutely no way we can disprove this claim. Which is why it’s a logical fallacy

Example 2

 "A secret group controls the world, but they are so good at hiding that no evidence of their control exists."

This claim is also a logical fallacy because there’s no way to prove this is false

Never assume you must be right simply because you can’t be proven wrong.

[jaunty wraith]

ok

[lament cairn]

i didn't actually know that was considered a fallacy. I always called it "being ignorant"

[small coral]

it's also called "appeal to ignorance"

[timid latch]

Who is to say we can't prove aliens aren't real

[vale raven]

Aliens are real

They probed me man

[timid latch]

Also what if the reason it can't be proven false is that it is simply true

[lament cairn]

I think that still counts as unfalsifiability

if it's "simply true" there must be a way to prove "simply" that it's "true"

[timid latch]

"the USA is a country" you can't prove me wrong so therefore we can't assume it is

[vale raven]

technicalllllllly
they’re just some states that got together and decided to call themselves “united”

[small coral]

"What is a country?"
Moon Men - Jake Chudnow plays

[young shoal]

so you're saying that all true statements are fallacious

[thick osprey]

Euclid being called out in 4k right now?

[young shoal]

i wish i had a 4k monitor

but they're too big to fit reasonably on my desk

[timid latch]

(I think the point is that if your only evidence is "you can't prove me wrong" then it's bad)

[young shoal]

(not to mention expensive if i want to get a 144hz one)

[young shoal]

yes but it's funny to say this

[thick osprey]

In the humor of the moment, how many of these fallacious statements can be proven to be truly fallacious and how many are just "trust me"?

[young shoal]

isn't the point that the "trust me" arguments are fallacious

[thick osprey]

I'm certain I do not understand the point of the arguments at all. I thought to at least attempt to engage, but I think that was an error on my part. haha

[quasi blaze]

Big difference between making the claim that aliens don’t exist vs aliens aren’t real

[timid latch]

What's the difference

[young shoal]

does "real" not mean "existence"

example: "my experience in gerontology was bad, therefore, we should not mandate electives"

cannot be proven true or false

[quasi blaze]

When you are making the claim that aliens aren’t real you asserting that they do exist in a fraudulent way. Making the claim that aliens don’t exist is asserting that are not being

[young shoal]

that is certainly an interpretation of "real"

[quasi blaze]

Okay. I concede

[quasi blaze]

To answer your question, humans currently don’t have the technological capacity to explore the entire universe to prove that aliens don’t exist

[timid latch]

But they are real, I see some every day

[quasi blaze]

Others cannot prove that otherwise. Therefore, your claim is a logical fallacy

[timid latch]

You saying immigration isn't real?

[quasi blaze]

We are speaking within the context of life outside of our planet

[timid latch]

You never specified that

[quasi blaze]

I thought that was obvious

The context was “humans currently don’t have the technological capacity to explore the entire universe”

That was stated in our dialogue of this conversation

[timid latch]

You assumed I was talking about extraterrestrials, I simply asked about "aliens"

[young shoal]

💀

[quasi blaze]

The aliens you are talking about, you can prove they exist

[timid latch]

Yhe, which means your claim that "aliens exist" being a bad claim isn't true, as it can easily be proven

[quasi blaze]

I clarified myself already that this is in context to outside of our planet

[timid latch]

So what specific definition of alien are we using

[quasi blaze]

I told you already

For the third time

[timid latch]

So just something from outside our planet? Like does a asteroid count

[quasi blaze]

You’re moving the goal post

[young shoal]

no, they aren't

[timid latch]

I just want us to agree on a solid definition

[quasi blaze]

Logical form

Issue A has been raised, and adequately answered.

Issue B is then raised, and adequately answered.

Issue C is then raised, and adequately answered.

That’s what he is doing

[young shoal]

nope

[timid latch]

We can't resolve issue A until we get a good definition for what an alien is

It's more like a sub issue

[young shoal]

also, how is this moving the goalposts?

[young shoal]

edited 🗿

[timid latch]

So the people on the ISS count?

That's life existing outside the planet

[quasi blaze]

I clarified the context and he’s raising supposedly other issues and I have to keep answering

That’s moving the goal post fallacy

[young shoal]

i mean the "logical form" you gave. neither they nor this logical form are moving the goalpost

also, it's not even a fallacy

[quasi blaze]

It’s addressing more and more points after the answer to the initial argument is already given

[young shoal]

so, follow up questions?

[timid latch]

That.... Is just a normal thing in debates

[young shoal]

you're missing the entire point of "moving the goal post" which is actually moving goalposts. they are asking clarifying questions about your definition

[timid latch]

"okay so I agree X is better, but how will you fund it" type of questions are really really common

[quasi blaze]

I told him the context already. It’s life outside of our planet

[timid latch]

So... The humans in the ISS? So aliens are real

[young shoal]

and they are asking clarifying questions

[quasi blaze]

Foreign life outside of our planet

a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.

[timid latch]

So a human born in orbit would count?

[jaunty wraith]

according to the panspermia theory, we're all from outer space

[thick osprey]

Interesting. They would be aliens in both definitions thus far.

[quasi blaze]

Moving the goal post again

[young shoal]

wrong

[jaunty wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/aliens-giorgio-tsoukalos-ancient-aliens-vistors-ufo-gif-27544770

[young shoal]

they are asking clarifying questions

[quasi blaze]

Yes

[young shoal]

does the ISS count as a plane for the purposes of assigning citizenship?

if you're born in a plane and are a US citizen, are you from the US?

[jaunty wraith]

yes

[karmic gust]

like a plane anywhere?

[young shoal]

or are you from the country you departed from

like, would you say that you are from the US

[jaunty wraith]

if you have US citizen parents, you get US citizenship, no?

[young shoal]

yeah the point isn't whether or not you are a US citizen, it's what you would say

[jaunty wraith]

yeah

[timid latch]

Good, would a plant grown in orbit count?

[thick osprey]

So that depends on if the ISS has the nationality of the state which it is registered or is actually multiply registered.

[young shoal]

there are US and russian modules on it though

so maybe it would depend which one

[jaunty wraith]

y

[karmic gust]

no im from here

[thick osprey]

Aviation and Nautical rules state the craft cannot have more than one registered site of origin and nationality is granted to that site. That's neat. If you are on a European plane in international air born of American citizens... you are a European. If I translate it literally.

[jaunty wraith]

btw, @thick osprey, I remember you having a pd-utils repo on GitHub
I don't see it now
did you remove it :( ?

[thick osprey]

I had too for the time being. Legal was giving me some issues with my side-projects.

[quasi blaze]

Yes. Now can we continue with the debate

[jaunty wraith]

sir, that is unfalsifiable

[timid latch]

Plants have been grown in space, so aliens are real

[young shoal]

now to argue about the usefulness of this definition 🗿

[young shoal]

is it

[jaunty wraith]

sadge

[young shoal]

so you're putting them up on a new account right

[karmic gust]

i think you'd also be an american citizen by parents

[jaunty wraith]

source?

[young shoal]

the big bang bro he just said it

[thick osprey]

It does appear so and the other is quite situational. Still interesting.

[quasi blaze]

Maybe “Aliens exist” wasn’t the best example

[jaunty wraith]

maybe

[young shoal]

i mean, it was a fine example, you just had a poor definition

[jaunty wraith]

that's not a great source

[thick osprey]

Yeah. I think they are done trying to claim that my experience in use of PagerDuty is somehow tied to my proprietary knowledge of my company's product even though it is a third party vendor. We shall see though.

[rain marsh]

the US State Department does not consider a US-registered aircraft to be an extension of US territory. Therefore, a child born on such an aircraft while outside of US airspace does not attain US citizenship based solely on the place of birth.

Interesting

[quasi blaze]

To conclude, don’t assume you’re right because you can’t be proven wrong

[thick osprey]

My face of absolute surprise on the US stance here. 😐

[quasi blaze]

It’s a logical fallacy

[vale raven]

Whats one thing that is not a logical fallacy?

[young shoal]

i think there are other conclusions to be drawn here also. perhaps don't jump so quickly to accusing others of fallacious reasoning

[quasi blaze]

A statement of fact

[karmic gust]

lol statements of fact can certainly be a logical fallacy

[rain marsh]

I mean, it is a genuine fallacy - the example just wasn't the best

[vale raven]

So if something is not 100% fact it is automatically fallacious?

[young shoal]

facts can't be proven false, right?

[quasi blaze]

Can you provide an example?

[karmic gust]

a fallacy is a form of invalid inference, not just "something someone said wrong in a debate"

[vale raven]

So…. Every opinion I’ve ever had is inherently fallacious?

[quasi blaze]

No. It can be an opinion

[young shoal]

so true!

[vale raven]

How does one tell the difference?

[karmic gust]

"it is raining today therefore it will rain tomorrow"
even the conclusion can be true and it is still a fallacy

[rain marsh]

https://philpapers.org/rec/BOWUNS
I can point you to many research papers if you want

I don't disagree...?

[quasi blaze]

Universally, that’s incorrect so no your conclusion cannot be true

[karmic gust]

if it rains tommorrow the conclusion is true

that's sort of the basic correspondence with the world that makes a statement true

[quasi blaze]

A fact is something that’s verifiable. An opinion is one telling you what they think about a subject

[karmic gust]

"unfalsifiability" isnt really a fallacy, since it's not describing an inference

[vale raven]

The different between an opinion and a fallacy*

[karmic gust]

"unfalsifiable" is a property of a conclusion, not an argument

[quasi blaze]

If I apply that logic for next week, It could be false also. So universally, it’s still a fallacious claim

[karmic gust]

its not a claim about next week though

[quasi blaze]

I am specifically talking about the flow of your logic

[karmic gust]

my whole point was that you're confusing the truth of statements with the validity of arguments

[quasi blaze]

If you said “it will rain today, It might rain tomorrow as well.” That’s perfectly more sensible to say

[karmic gust]

it sure is, but how would that prove the point i was making

my whole point was that it's an invalid argument that uses true statements

[quasi blaze]

You used the word “can” in your argument also which you’re essentially saying it’s capable of being true

[karmic gust]

ok?

[quasi blaze]

So that itself isn’t necessarily a statement of fact

It’s either True or not.

Not capable of being True

That’s what a statement of fact is

It’s something that is true. Not capable of being true

[karmic gust]

my point hinges on the fact that "it will rain tomorrow" has a truth value
i dont think you're really following it

[quasi blaze]

Sounds like a truth proposition to me

[karmic gust]

"truth proposition" isnt really a thing, that's just a proposition

[young shoal]

it is a proposition. if it rains tomorrow, the proposition is true

[karmic gust]

and once again i have no idea what you're trying to say

[quasi blaze]

Then he concluded that it “can” be true which is where the argument falls apart for me

[karmic gust]

that wasnt a conclusion

i can formalize it if you want

• there exists a day T on which statements "it is raining today" and "it will rain tomorrow" are true
• on day T the argument

it is raining today
∴ it will rain tomorrow
is composed of a true premise and a true conclusion
∴ there exists an argument which is composed of a true premise, a true conclusion, and is fallacious

[quasi blaze]

All right I see I think I get it now

I guess your example is an exception

[karmic gust]

one might even call it a counterexample

[vale raven]

Turns out the world might not be full of absolutes after all

[jaunty wraith]

that's a wack claim

[quasi blaze]

Here’s an example.

If today is Tuesday, then John will go to work. Today is Tuesday. Therefore, John will go to work.

[thick osprey]

It is. But when legal cares to speak up it is easier to comply first and sort it out after. Especially given the state of the company at the moment. I'm sure it will be all sorted. There was probably and audit somewhere and this is splash damage.

[quasi blaze]

So John won’t go to work

[thick osprey]

And, to their credit, I wasn't told "You are doing...". I was told "You could be...."

[acoustic moss]

that doesn't logically follow from "If today is Tuesday, then John will go to work"

[young shoal]

that is actually a fallacy

[quasi blaze]

Dammit

[young shoal]

it's affirming the consequent

[jaunty wraith]

I smell drama

leak it 🥺

[young shoal]

john is a large classical object

[rain marsh]

**they are?

[quasi blaze]

My conclusion is wrong

[thick osprey]

And get slapped with insider trading issues too? I'll pass.

[fresh basalt]

According to Discord search KeezyEnraged has been on about logical fallacies since at least June of last year.

a full year

[young shoal]

nah

well maybe

but it 📈

[thick osprey]

Does it matter? Can't imagine what my chat history says. I've probably been on about things for years on end!

[fresh basalt]

No, nothing here matters.

[jaunty wraith]

according to Discord search, we have talked about Python since the start
interesting

[young shoal]

how curious

[thick osprey]

looking into this

[acoustic moss]

in the beginning was python

[quasi blaze]

I can give more examples if you want

[jaunty wraith]

then the crabs attacked

[fresh basalt]

You are so cliquish.

[young shoal]

sez u

[fresh basalt]

Maybe I just don't get it.

[jaunty wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/monty-python-and-the-holy-gif-13627858

[vale raven]

Let’s see…
Stuff I’ve been complaining about for years:

• PHP is dumb
• I suck at SQL
• My boss is an idiot
• Poetry’s refusal to be a team player
• Everyone trying to tell me that Poetry is the best
• Managers
• ColdFusion Markup
• UPS
• FedEx

[jaunty wraith]

ColdFusion???

[chrome junco]

guys, can a pygame window be initialized from a hwnd? just asking and don't really know where should I ask, it's not for anything serious, just for playing with my desktop

[vale raven]

It’s like PHP
Scripting in HTML

[jaunty wraith]

I know what it is, but why

[thick osprey]

I think you missed your complaints against everyone telling you to get your resume reviewed so you can stop complaining about your boss being an idiot.

[rain marsh]

Can cereal be considered as soup?

[chrome junco]

sure

[jaunty wraith]

real

[thick osprey]

Yes.

[rain marsh]

Thanks 🙏

[fresh basalt]

What I meant was that people seem annoyed when dude goes on about something and complain to him when he goes on about it yet he's been doing it for a year.

[young shoal]

100% true fact checked by real american patriots 🦅

[jaunty wraith]

@vale raven, wen new jerb

[vale raven]

Our biggest client uses it
They also have it in debug mode, so I get to see their detailed stack traces

[vale raven]

[jaunty wraith]

could you please share a URL 🥺?

[fresh basalt]

So maybe I misunderstood and people here actually like to argue about silly stuff.

[jaunty wraith]

we are not silly, we're very serious people

[fresh basalt]

Maybe this isn't the place for me I guess.

[thick osprey]

I saw several people here openly engaging with a discussion around fallacy. From which I actually learned a number of things from those trying to explain topics to the OP.

This round was surprisingly and pleasantly missing a dogpile of attacks against the OP.

[quasi blaze]

I am very disappointed in my argumentative skills that were shown this morning

[fresh basalt]

Like I said, maybe I'm the one who misunderstood.

[quasi blaze]

I need to get better

[thick osprey]

I do agree. Your communication skills could use some practice.

[dapper dew]

Turns out formal debate is not often an effective form of communication

[fresh basalt]

Do you think you could teach me? Pretty please?

[young shoal]

🥺 👉 👈

[thick osprey]

Behold! A man. 🐥

[young shoal]

that chick has feathers

[vale raven]

I don’t complain about people trying to push me along
I complain about the continued harassment from those around me

I say I’d like help becoming a better communicator at work?
I get told to not even try because I should be focusing on getting a new job.
I say that said communication skills would help me in my new job?
I get told to go fuck myself for not listening.

I say that I’m going to continue my break from applying to jobs for another week because I just found out that my best friend is in the hospital?
I get told that “they already know everything they need to know about how much I don’t care about a new job” — about “how obvious it is” because o haven’t put in any applications the day the hospitalization happened.

If they said “hey let’s work together”, it would have been a very different story

[thick osprey]

It was the best basic emoji offered.

[young shoal]

🐥 - 🪶

[vale raven]

[thick osprey]

Go with the nuance of the moment.

[young shoal]

haven't offers to workshop the resume been extended?

[dapper dew]

It's a very confident chick

Standing boldly

[thick osprey]

Just shy of t-posing for dominance.

[vale raven]

Oh
I must leave then
It’s the weekend, I left my serious face at work

[thick osprey]

I'm not sure I qualify as a teacher for such things.

[young shoal]

^-posing

[vale raven]

Not to me

[vale raven]

And it’s hard to want to accept that help when I get these answers

[karmic gust]

not an expert, but I think we know for sure life existed before DNA
at the very least RNA was a precursor

[vale raven]

What would a more effective form be?

[karmic gust]

neither of them are really necessary for life, just for inheritance of traits

[thick osprey]

I didn't realize how deep that was cutting behind the scene. I am not privy to the majority of these conversations it seems or I would have spoken up against such unhelpful support openly and loudly.

Thank you for informing me. I will adjust my banter to be more aware of the situation.

[vale raven]

But to not slander them too much —
They do try to help, and their actual help has been very helpful

But they go overboard with the rest of it, which creates an environment that’s frustrating and detrimental to be in

[thick osprey]

I say I’d like help becoming a better communicator at work?

Have you ever read How to Win Friends and Influence People? It offers interesting insight into communication from the aspect of being able to relate to the audience or situation.

Also, find a local Toastmasters. Invaluable tips and practice to be found with a good club. Just be aware like most clubs the mileage varies depending on the inner culture of the given club. Thankfully, there are many times many of them.

[vale raven]

I never really got into the self help book scene

I found them… IDK how to describe them

[rain marsh]

Like they could be summarised in a page or two without being spread out into a whole book?

[vale raven]

I have a bunch though, from Humble Bundles over time
I’ll see what I have

[vale raven]

Well that too

[thick osprey]

They do say the same thing in different angles over and over and over and over and over and...

[rain marsh]

🌟 Common sense with a sprinkle of wisdom from experience and 300 extra pages 🌟

[thick osprey]

"All these books say the same thing!"
tries the thing
"Oh wow, it works"

[young shoal]

:sip:

[thick osprey]

I was told once that taking a cold shower in the morning is training my mind and body to do something I know I don't want to do. Building resilience, or something...

I like my water not to hurt so I just kept reading the motivation books even though they had that extra 300 pages of fluff. Boom. Resilience.

[young shoal]

also exercise

[thick osprey]

speaking of which... it is time.

[jaunty wraith]

…VR?

[young shoal]

beat saber 📈

[open fern]

beat saber sounds like fun

I don't have any sort of VR, not that I have a machine capable of hosting.

[jaunty wraith]

do you use sabers while dancing to the beat?

[young shoal]

no

[jaunty wraith]

lame

[open fern]

It got nerfed in the last inflation update. /s

[vale raven]

Beat Saber is great

[rain marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/touching-grass-touch-gif-21219969

Oh even better, gotta run faster now

may i present to you

that is true, howerver,

ok thats pretty cool

[quasi blaze]

I have re-reviewed your example.

“"it is raining today therrefore it will rain tomorrow"

“Therefore” is implying for that reason. Even if it did in fact rained tomorrow, it wasn’t because it rained today. Isn’t that right?

[young shoal]

that's the point

[quasi blaze]

That argument can’t be a statement of fact because tomorrow hasn’t happened yet

[young shoal]

that's not the point

[timid latch]

the whole point is that something can be 100% true, and still be a fallacious

[quasi blaze]

If it in fact rained tomorrow, it wouldn’t support Scoflaw’s premise.

[karmic gust]

yes it would

[quasi blaze]

I am just saying that his premise wouldn’t be a statement of fact even if it did indeed rain tomorrow because he’s insinuating that it will rain tomorrow because it rained today

[timid latch]

lets say it is 11:59pm, if I say it is raining today I can be very sure it will still be raining tomorrow

[quasi blaze]

There’s no way to prove that it rained tomorrow because it rained today

[timid latch]

I mean... there literally is

[quasi blaze]

If we jump into the future (that today is tomorrow)

[timid latch]

there is a whole field of science dedicated to studying the weather

[timid latch]

at the point we make the statement we dont know, but in the future it might turn out to be 100% true

so our statement was true, but it was still fallacious

[young shoal]

that's not the point 🗿. the point is that even though the argument is composed of true statements, the reasoning is fallacious

[quasi blaze]

The statement is essentially “For that very reason, it will rain tomorrow.” They could have been other possibilities that it rained tomorrow. Not just because it rained today

[timid latch]

and their counter argument is that we cant know if it is true or not since the tomorrow hasnt happend

[timid latch]

but it raining today could be the reason it was raining tomorrow

[quasi blaze]

So his premise could be false then

It’s not 100 true

[timid latch]

its is 100% on some day T

what if I just got lucky the day I made the statement, I would be 100% right, but it would still be bad reasoning

[quasi blaze]

He’s asserting that it will rain tomorrow because it rained today. His assertion wasn’t exclusively that it will rain tomorrow

[timid latch]

it raining today could very well be the reason it rains tomorrow

[quasi blaze]

So even if it did rain tomorrow, his conclusion can be false

[young shoal]

the conclusion is "it will rain tomorrow". if it rains tomorrow, the conclusion is true. the reasoning is false

[timid latch]

can is the keyword there, it can also be true

[young shoal]

[quasi blaze]

It is “It will rain tomorrow because it rained today.” actually

[young shoal]

no, actually not

[quasi blaze]

That’s what “Therefore” means

[timid latch]

"because it rained today." is a reason not a conclusion

[quasi blaze]

Therefore means “for that reason“

[timid latch]

the conclusion is the outcome, i.e "it will rain tomorrow", the reason is the why, "because it rained today"

[young shoal]

you need to actually learn logic before talking about logic 🗿

[timid latch]

the conclusion can be true even if the reasoning is bs

[karmic gust]

the "therefore" is part of the structure of the proof, not the conclusion

[young shoal]

"therefore" separates your reasoning and the conclusion

[karmic gust]

if you restructure the proof as a statement, e.g. "it is a valid inference that raining today -> raining tomorrow", that would be a false statement

[tardy rain]

Is this predicting the weather by induction

[karmic gust]

no

doesnt matter

its not even important that there is an arguer

[acoustic moss]

why

[quasi blaze]

Are we going to completely ignore the premise of the argument because the conclusion was true?

[acoustic moss]

do we know whether "its going to rain tomorrow" is a true statement or a false statement

[karmic gust]

the arrow there isnt meant to be material implication

something more like syntactical entailment

[acoustic moss]

thinking pikachu emoji

[karmic gust]

long story short that statement is false bc that is not a valid inference

[karmic gust]

whether it's raining on any day has no impact on the truth of this statement

[acoustic moss]

are you saying its false because we know from prior experience that there can be days where it rains without it raining on the following day

[karmic gust]

it's false because the argument mentioned by the statement does not use valid logical inference

you can care about whatever you want, but the conversation is about logical inference and no it can't

there is no arguer

only an argument

it was very useful for making the point i made by introducing it

[karmic gust]

which was here

[acoustic moss]

my conclusion is that the "therefore" is implicitly assuming that "rain today => rain tomorrow" is a true statement

[karmic gust]

that'd be material implication

[quasi blaze]

That’s exactly what I was trying to articulate as well

[acoustic moss]

"(rain today) & ((rain today) => (rain tomorrow)) = (rain today) & (rain tomorrow)" has no fallacy

"(rain today) = (rain today) & (rain tomorrow)" has a fallacy

[karmic gust]

does every argument implicitly assume its conclusion follows from its premises?

you would have to say that every argument is valid

which does not seem helpful

[acoustic moss]

"<premises> are true hence <conclusion> is true" is a fallacy if "<premise> => <conclusion>" is not proven true first

[karmic gust]

there is no need to assume some intentionality of a writer, or even a writer, to discuss the properties of an argument

the argument is valid or invalid regardless of whether it has ever even been written down

[acoustic moss]

are you responding to me or lisan

[karmic gust]

we're talking about logic, which uses formal inferences
<premise> => <conclusion> isn't something to be proven, it's something which either fits within the formal rules of inference of your proof system or doesn't

[acoustic moss]

by proof i mean whether <premise> => <conclusion> is true

[karmic gust]

let's back up and look at the original proof

it is raining today
∴ it will rain tomorrow

there are two statements in this proof, a premise and a conclusion
both are true, but the argument is not sound because it uses invalid inference

"it is raining today -> it will rain tomorrow" is not a statement within this proof

it basically means "therefore", it marks the conclusion

[grave cove]

chat, is this a modus ponens moment

[karmic gust]

i was not stating anything, i was mentioning a proof

[acoustic moss]

then i agree

[grave cove]

the proof is invalid though

[karmic gust]

you can treat it as a statement like i did here, but it's not really relevant to the point i was making

[acoustic moss]

P
P -> Q
∴ Q
this is a valid proof

without the P -> Q its not

[grave cove]

i was right

it is a modus ponens moment

but in a vacuum you can't say that it will rain tomorrow just because it rained today

well yeah, they're propositions

[karmic gust]

i dont know what point you're trying to make anymore

[grave cove]

huh?

[karmic gust]

"the earth is flat"

[grave cove]

how can a symbol have a truth value

[karmic gust]

do you think i think the earth is flat?

[acoustic moss]

this equivalence holds regardless of whether you put True or False for (rain today) and (rain tomorrow)

[karmic gust]

i think you're conflating "has a truth value" with "was said by someone who is asserting it is true"

but i wrote down that proof specifically to point out that it's invalid

[foggy jungle]

The Earth is flat.

[karmic gust]

so clearly that isnt true

it is raining today
∴ it will rain tomorrow

[foggy jungle]

No I am explicitly saying it.

[karmic gust]

? i was answering your question

whether mentioning a proof should be interpreted as a statement that that proof is sound is, I think, not really a settled question
but also I don't think much hangs on it

[vocal oyster]

would've helped if the font isn't also unreadable

[tardy rain]

1+1 may be 2 but did you know that 1*1=2 too?

[violet roost]

new favourite quora response:

    as a                                  COMPUTER  
    science prof 
                            essor I get FruSTRATED 
    withinconsistentuseOF  
         whitespace and CAPITALiza 
                                                                  ion 

it looks like apl

[tardy rain]

It looks like something i'd skip

[violet roost]

can't say I'd blame you

[uneven pine]

This is a true savior

It was 90° and humid in here

[quasi blaze]

I have received more value from this chat learning about logic

[granite tree]

Are you familiar with Pascals Wager?

[quasi blaze]

Nope

[quasi blaze]

I thinking more about Scofflaw’s argument “it will rain today, therefore, it will rain tomorrow.” It is indeed logically fallacious but let’s assume that the conclusion is true for a hypothetical that I remembered in an Andrew Wilson debate that I watched on YouTube. This is paraphrased so it goes something like this:

Let’s assume that there’s this ghost of a higher being that is completely fictitious and the people are who are followers of this ghost and is completely aware of that this ghost is 100% fictitious. However, they develop virtues, ethics, morale and anything that makes them a well-rounded human being as whole. Why does it matter if people are following a higher being that is fictitious and followers know it’s fictitious if there’s a positive outcome of this?

Which goes back to Scofflaw’s argument. It may have rained tomorrow but reasons if it was because it rained today, it doesn’t matter because the outcome (conclusion) was true

[warped sentinel]

wat

[grave cove]

bro went from propositional logic to religion

thats crazy

but also i fail to see what that middle paragraph has to do with scoff's argument

[gritty zinc]

it doesn’t matter because the outcome (conclusion) was true
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_knowledge#Justified_true_belief

[quasi blaze]

The premise is the followers are believing in a false higher being of a ghost (and the followers know it’s false)

But doing so has a positive outcome to it.

Scofflaw’s premise is flawed but if it does conclude that it rains tomorrow. Why does the premise matter if it was invalid?

[lament cairn]

what

[grave cove]

i think you're trying to apply something completely different to something else completely different

the whole thing we talked about earlier was a mathematical/logic debate, applying it to ethics/morality will surely not go well

[quasi blaze]

You can apply logic to morality as well though

[grave cove]

you can, but anyone can twist it however they like to prove whatever they want

[warped sentinel]

but if the outcome is positive, does the premise matter?

[grave cove]

sounds machiavellian

[warped sentinel]

is machiavellian necessarily bad?

[grave cove]

it depends on the situation

[gritty zinc]

well you see, twisting outcomes to prove what I want is fine but only when I do it, because I'm a good person and my conclusions are always right

[quasi blaze]

I hope what I am saying is understandable

[grave cove]

its not

[warped sentinel]

I mean, we are talking about a constructed scenario.
So I would have a lot of issues in terms the practical terms of it

[uneven pine]

Keezy for the year or however long you've been here, you've said maybe 1 thing that was reasonable

[grave cove]

we should just talk about mathematical logic
at least thats not fuzzy like ethics

[young shoal]

so true

[grave cove]

it was also more fun

debates on ethics never go anywhere

[quasi blaze]

Logic isn’t exclusively applicable to mathematics though. You can apply logic to other domains

[warped sentinel]

I would rather talk about python or cs degrees

[young shoal]

so true

[grave cove]

but math 🥺

[quasi blaze]

Which is?

[uneven pine]

I don't even remember. I think it was a few days ago

[grave cove]

sure. but again, it gets fuzzy

[quasi blaze]

I see. So we can agree that premises in arguments matter whether the conclusion of an argument is correct?

[uneven pine]

Are you planning to major in philosophy when you finish highschool?

[warped sentinel]

it depends on the scope of the arguments and the conclusion

[grave cove]

bro is the thinker

[quasi blaze]

I am a working tech professional. I an way beyond my high school years

[uneven pine]

Lol sure

[warped sentinel]

For instance, is believing in entities an extra step? Is it required to drive to good outcome? Are there possibilities where this entity is misused for whatever reason?
Otherwise, the existence of a good path is not sufficient to derive to your conclusion

[young shoal]

is arguing a conservative vector field or liberal

[low chasm]

you seem to be describing me

[low chasm]

Your face is a vector field

[warped sentinel]

mod abuse

[grave cove]

mods, ban him

[quasi blaze]

Oh it was about people being offended

[grave cove]

bro went searching

[quasi blaze]

I went searching for answers

There’s nothing wrong with asking questions

[young shoal]

consider the opportunity cost

[quasi blaze]

It’s okay to be disagreeable. Disagreeable men tend to make more money than agreeable men.

https://ideasforleaders.com/Ideas/why-are-disagreeable-men-being-rewarded-for-being-disagreeable/#:~:text=Disagreeableness refers to being assertive,significantly more than agreeable men.

You don’t always have to agree up front but disagree in disguise. If you think that somebody is saying something that doesn’t make sense, challenge their ideas and disagree with it

It’s bad to always be a “Yes man”

[young shoal]

[timid latch]

agree, be a yes non-binary

[karmic gust]

do you have any ideas for followers

[quasi blaze]

I don’t know. I am not a social media influencer so I can’t teach you how to increase your following base

[young shoal]

instead of caring about whether you're disagreeable or not, why not improve your skills

The results of the first study, for example, showed that men rated high on agreeableness earned on average $31,259, while men rated low on agreeableness earned $42,113.
bro

[quasi blaze]

What’s the problem

[timid latch]

the ones earning less didnt agree to take the survey /hj

[honest star]

what population did they even study

[young shoal]

i made the lower figure at chipotle and now i make 1.5x the higher figure (prorated). i guess i am simply much more disagreeable 🗿

[quasi blaze]

Perhaps

https://news.nd.edu/news/men-earn-a-premium-for-being-disagreeable-in-the-workplace-women-dont-says-new-research/

Nothing wrong with being disagreeable

[young shoal]

it mentions 3 studies but there's only 1 link

[young shoal]

i think you might be reading too much into the term "disagreeable"

[honest star]

lol classic

"cite your sources"
"no"

[timid latch]

simple, become man

[young shoal]

from the linked study's abstract

Key Findings • The pay gap between agreeable and disagreeable males is significantly larger than the gap between agreeable and disagreeable females. That is, there is a“benefit” of being (moderately) disagreeable as a male, but this “benefit” is minimal for females. • Employees are subject to gender stereotypes in the workplace. Males are expected to exhibit masculine qualities, including disagreeableness. Females are expected to exhibit feminine qualities, including agreeableness. When one gender defies such stereotypes, the employee can be perceived as deviant. • Males who are agreeable are disadvantaged (vs. disagreeable males) for two reasons: first, agreeableness is negatively correlated with income; secondly, they defy the male stereotype of being assertive and disagreeable.

[quasi blaze]

How so?

[young shoal]

https://ecommons.cornell.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/d935f0ba-a3ca-4c2a-8441-e2591b6cb38a/content

ah. it is a meta-study of sorts

[honest star]

Participants were between 12-16 years old when they enrolled in 1997. Survey participants were required to be working outside of their homes, not enrolled in college full-time, and be working a minimum of 1,000 hours per year to participate at each time point when data was collected.
... that's certainly a population

[young shoal]

i saw that too. read carefully

[honest star]

hm?

[young shoal]

it lasted from 1997-2008, so they would be 23-27

[honest star]

By the end, yes

[young shoal]

right

[timid latch]

so it is also a good amount of years old

[honest star]

... I don't think you need to read that carefully to get that point

[young shoal]

ok but like, it's not that they only had data for 12-16 year old people ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[honest star]

But the population of not enrolled in college full-time and working a min of 1,000 hours per year at each data collection point is wild to me. That's the sticking point for me

[honest star]

yeah, that wasn't my concern or takeaway at all

[young shoal]

i see. yeah, they are admitting a lot of people that wouldn't really be working full time

i think the funny part is that

For the year 2020, the U.S. Census Bureau estimates that the median annual earnings for all workers (aged 15 and over) was $41,535; and more specifically estimates that median annual earnings for those who worked full-time, year round, was $61,417 for men and $50,982 for women.

[quasi blaze]

I don’t how being selfish, combative and manipulative constitutes as being disagreeable

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/08/31/being-a-selfish-jerk-doesnt-get-you-ahead-research-finds/

[vale raven]

So…. At least half of full time?

So…. People with jobs?

[quasi blaze]

I have no issue with Machiavellianism. I am all for “the ends justifies the means” I’ll go through any nearly means to achieve my objective

To answer your question. Not to me.

[young shoal]

so you are a conservative vector field kinda person

[quasi blaze]

As long as I get what I want

Do whatever you can to get hired for your first job in tech

[young shoal]

why would that change for any other job

shouldn't that just be "do whatever you can"

[timid latch]

anything?

[grave cove]

bro

[quasi blaze]

It’s because employers generally want the experienced and most graduates don’t have experience which is why I specifically said “Do whatever you can to get your first job in tech.”

The end justifies the means

Tell the employers what they want to hear

[timid latch]

kill the competition

[tardy rain]

Did you lie on your resume Keezy?

[spare oriole]

i think he did

[tardy rain]

Based?

[drowsy rose]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/vxjDp1mmdZE

[quasi blaze]

Nah

[tardy rain]

How come?

Its probably the least harmful form of manipulation

[quasi blaze]

Because I didn’t need to

[tardy rain]

I was there in career discussion lol

You spent many months, close to a year looking for a job

You definitely could have lied

[young shoal]

but you said "any means"

[tardy rain]

Why didnt you use the tactics you say you embrace

[quasi blaze]

I am speaking in general

[young shoal]

so why is this situation an exception?

[tardy rain]

Does one's ability to pay rent not apply "in general"

[quasi blaze]

Just because I didn’t use them, doesn’t mean my claims are invalidated

[tardy rain]

It means we are very doubtful youre telling the truth

[young shoal]

it certainly shakes the confidence

if someone says they do something, but they don't do it, aren't you a bit suspicious of their claim?

[tardy rain]

You say you live by these principles and yet you didnt use them to secure a career

Arguably the most important aspect of life

[quasi blaze]

Not at all. Because then would be a fallacy on your part

[tardy rain]

Suspicious

[quasi blaze]

That’s an appeal to hypocrisy fallacy

[young shoal]

actually they did go through a "dark triad" phase

[tardy rain]

Its a fallacy on your part tho lol

Its a double standard

[young shoal]

no it's not. you're talking about what you do

[tardy rain]

claim one should be selfish and manipulative to achieve life goals
you yourself are not selfish and manipulative

Rules for thee but not for me?

Suspect

[quasi blaze]

The advice doesn’t automatically become discredited because the speaker didn’t use that advice

[tardy rain]

Why is the speaker offering this advice then

Perhaps theres an ulterior motive?

[quasi blaze]

Because they think it’s good advice

[tardy rain]

Someone's not being transparent

[tardy rain]

If its good why arent you using it

[quasi blaze]

I didn’t think I needed to use it in my situation

[tardy rain]

Why do you think others need to use it if you dont

[young shoal]

but you kinda did. if we look at your messages, you were already viewing other applicants as opponents to beat by any means necessary

you also had been applying for about a year at that point

[tardy rain]

Most of the time its not the interviewer's money tho

Recruiters and HR arent exactly the most honourable people/roles in a company anyway

[quasi blaze]

You’re focusing too much on the past of the speaker rather than the argument itself

[tardy rain]

The speaker is getting caught up in lies

[quasi blaze]

Hmm? Which?

[tardy rain]

Youre lying about your beliefs lol

[young shoal]

yeah, that's the point. this isn't a debate, I'm asking you why you didn't

[tardy rain]

Imagine i was urging people to convert to christianity and im not even a christian, would you not be wary?

[quasi blaze]

You guys are still getting sidetracked from the argument

[tardy rain]

Anyway as for the argument
Machiavelli wrote what he wrote for aspiring political figures, not the every day dude

[quasi blaze]

Attack the argument

[tardy rain]

Youre not a politician

[young shoal]

you say "sidetrack", i say, "talking about what actually matters". haven't you heard, "actions speak louder than words"?

[tardy rain]

People who say shit like "ends justify the means" in my opinion are cringelords who ignore overall context of the prince or whatever else machiavelli wrote

So they can cherry pick quotes like

He should appear to be compassionate, faithful to his word, guileless, and devout. And indeed he should be so. But his disposition should be such that, if he needs to be the opposite, he knows how.

I swear to god

Youre not that guy

Yes, maybe, if you had a country to rule you could do it effectively if you follow the prince

You dont

This doesnt apply to you keezy, or anyone here

[tardy rain]

Actually i guess it could apply to joe if he wants to take back the server and rule with an iron fist

And make serfs of us all

In other news, theres a company party in 3 weeks

Gonna book tickets to be out of the country

[young shoal]

based

[rain marsh]

w

[tardy rain]

Keezy is right, dont make work friends

[timid latch]

literally me

[tardy rain]

Whats the difference

[timid latch]

I was giving mental health advice while my own health was at its worst point

[tardy rain]

Try being chummy with work people
Now theyre trynna guilt you into going to a silly after work party

[rain marsh]

Lol same

Like I give advice to people that I know has the scientific evidence to back it up, even though I don't follow it my self (I try to, but its hard)

[timid latch]

me to others: hey you should maybe go see a therapist.
meanwhile me: I dont need a therapist

[strange blade]

Your advice is still good though. I know from receiving it myself.

[strange blade]

[timid latch]

oh hi xD

[tardy rain]

Its mighty awkward

[strange blade]

i'm still ghosting the school psych tho

[tardy rain]

Doesnt help that we all have some amount of social anxiety

[rain marsh]

Much easier to give advice than to receive and take it on board of course, but I do think that giving advice can also be beneficial to you as well - because it makes you realises "oh hey maybe I should be doing this"

[tardy rain]

Otherwise we wouldn't be in this industry

[strange blade]

I think it's too late for me to walk in, but the more I wait the worse it'll probably be.

i'm somewhere between

[tardy rain]

I thought i overcame this in uni

But 2 years of pandemic fucked it up

[timid latch]

I enjoy hanging out with people I trust, I just have a hard time trusting people

[strange blade]

Oh yeah, covid was a thing.

[tardy rain]

😭

[strange blade]

I genuinely don't remember half of the experience

It was mainly because Australia is already quite isolated

[tardy rain]

Covid was a year of house arrest

[strange blade]

and covid kinda didn't exist

lockdown was 1-ish month iirc

[timid latch]

we had home school on and off during covid

[rain marsh]

I don't think anyone's truly a "full" introvert, biologically we're inherently social creatures (which is one of the reasons why COVID was so bad). But some people gain more energy from interacting with others and some others lose it.

[strange blade]

lol we had a whole microsoft teams thing prepared, and we didn't even use it

[pliant nexus]

i just cant talk to anyone my age thats a stranger or anyone older than me comfortably

its kind funny

to have a swarm of kids around you

💀

[strange blade]

I think I'm different

I don't really approach people, but I stare awkwardly until they force themselves to start the conversation.

If they don't acknowledge me I don't bother sparking the conversation

[strange blade]

it's at school it okey

[tardy rain]

Conversation starter by force

[strange blade]

I prefer to be the one in control, iykwim

[tardy rain]

😳

[strange blade]

And if you don't then: ||I prefer forcing them to start because it gives me a sense of control in the conversation, even if it's one of the riskier ways to start a conversation.||

[tardy rain]

What if they just get up and leave

[strange blade]

Well so far they haven't

[thick ore]

i think that's called being an introvert

😔

[young shoal]

no, that's called being annoying

[strange blade]

I have a success rate of 90ish % with the upper grades

Okay, it's not like a glaring stare.

It's more of a waiting look.

like, I'm waiting for them to say something

[timid latch]

[thick ore]

[timid latch]

speak to me mortal

[strange blade]

yis yis like that

except without the mortal

and less intimidating

[thick ore]

uh... ummm.... gets up and leaves

how's your success rate now ms frieren

[strange blade]

Well it's based on experience

so still 90%

[thick ore]

[timid latch]

[strange blade]

I feel like I have a very low tolerance for anything right now

Like life

[thick osprey]

I think, in it's own way, the lock downs of COVID provided an interesting insight to the other side of that social dynamic. There are some of us who learned, sometimes surprisingly, that while we could perform and function with high efficacy in social situations; those situations were damaging to our body. Seemingly more-so than a defined extrovert and other introverts.

It was a surprise package of long ignored mental and physical recovery for at least few of us. We, generally, have opted not to return to the "office norm".

((but in practice I agree, we are a social animal. That threshold of social tolerance being different for all))

[strange blade]

Time to learn how to debate again

[thick ore]

same for me but only milk

its kinda weird

[strange blade]

I meant like... mentally and emotionally

[tardy rain]

Subscribe to off topic's daily fallacy

[strange blade]

no thx

my debate is tomorrow

[tardy rain]

🤨

[strange blade]

lmaoo

it's just grade 8 debating

still stressful though

[thick ore]

sorry

[thick ore]

you can't possibly frieren blast peter griffin

[strange blade]

yes i can

and you can't do nothin bout it

[terse skiff]

car

[thick ore]

8.46/10 shitpost

[terse skiff]

I am the shit poster

[small coral]

stool chart in the doctors' offices

(literally a shit poster)

[quasi blaze]

This is a strawman. I said to never befriend your superiors

[tardy rain]

Are you superiors not colleagues?

Besides, do you really wanna be friends with someone who has the capacity to be promoted ahead of you?

[quasi blaze]

No

[tardy rain]

(edited)

[quasi blaze]

Yes I have. What is your point?

[quasi blaze]

Okay?

[tardy rain]

Thats ok because i was talking about my bosses anyway

I dont think anyone on my level wants to organize a company party

[quasi blaze]

You still strawmanned my position

[young shoal]

the ideals you hold in the abstract are less important than what you actually do

[tardy rain]

There was context you ignored

[quasi blaze]

That’s not true

Person Y: Smoking is bad because it deteriorates your health.

Person Z: But you smoke 6 packs a day.

Person Z saying to Person Y that they smoke 6 packs doesn’t discredit their argument that smoking is bad for your health

You’re too focused on the speaker’s actions instead of the claim they are making

That in itself is an appeal to hypocrisy fallacy

[young shoal]

yes, that's the point. actions speak louder than words

[tardy rain]

Do you understand that youre also committing a fallacy tho

[quasi blaze]

Again, you’re not attacking the argument by assessing the actions of the person saying the argument

[young shoal]

yep, I'm not attacking the argument

[quasi blaze]

If it wasn’t me and somebody else said the exact same thing as me, you wouldn’t be using their actions as a counterpoint

[quasi blaze]

So then why continue this conversation

Attack the argument or concede

[young shoal]

not everything is about arguing

[tardy rain]

The argument has been attacked many times keezy

Being selfish and manipulative carries risks

[young shoal]

shouldn't we care about the real world applications? the discussion is meaningless if not applied

[tardy rain]

You will be found out and that means your career, credibility, integrity will be destroyed

Nobody likes a liar

Some people arent comfortable with that risk

Most people arent

[quasi blaze]

This is a fair counter argument

[tardy rain]

Some people are comfortable with the risk

You'll notice most gamblers are comfortable taking risks

It doesnt pan out that well for a good majority of them

[quasi blaze]

I agree.

[tardy rain]

So why do you personally think its a good strategy

[quasi blaze]

If push comes to shove in your life and you’re going through rough patches, I would utilize Machiavelism if need be. However, I would never equate gambling to Machiavelism. I don’t see how they are the same thing

[solemn tulip]

in my head I imagine a stare and a confused head tilt

[tardy rain]

When push comes to shove you would commit atrocities justified by political glory?

[quasi blaze]

What is political glory?

[tardy rain]

Machiavelli meant it to be a leader's reign

Not sure how it translates to today

Anyway, enough arguing

Its deadlift day today

[pliant nexus]

thats a nice car you got there, mind if i ride it?

hows my shitpost?

i dont even know where i got it 💀

[quasi blaze]

You have a nice About Me bio lol

[pliant nexus]

does no one understand english here? 😭 /j

anyway, tomorrow my school is finally reopening after a month of summer vacation

i'm gonna show my teacher the interpreter i have made within the vacation

i just hope he atleast pretends to care 😭

programming is the "weird" and "useless for everything other than exams" subject in my school

[quasi blaze]

Logical fallacy of the day: “Reductio ad Absurdum”

It’s the form of an argument that attempts to establish a claim by showing that the opposite scenario would lead to absurdity or contradiction.

Logical Form:

Assume P is true.

From this assumption, deduce that Q is true.

Also, deduce that Q is false.

Thus, P implies both Q and not Q (a contradiction, which is necessarily false).

Therefore, P itself must be false.

Example 1

“Rocks have weight, otherwise we would see them floating in the air”

Example 2

“The Earth cannot be flat; otherwise, since the Earth is assumed to be finite in extent, we would find people falling off the edge.”

Don’t come up with conclusions like this. It’s fallacious.