ot1-perplexing-regexing

[marble bay]

I was talking abt this

https://ifunny.co/picture/ajpxg5xk7

[fringe rain]

oh

maybe i should just fall asleep

but what if one of these sussy patients take my turn

i mean would it be so bad? id have been sleeping anyways

[marble bay]

you're asleep, you wouldn't know

how can you be mad at something you didn't know happened

🧠

[fringe rain]

yes thats the problem 😂

they took advantage of my exposed asleep self

[fringe rain]

id know once i wake up, but hopefully by that time it would be my turn anyways and itll be alright

anyways i think the onlh issue with sleeping is losing my physical control, what if i fall to the person beside me or smth 💀

[marble bay]

.

[fringe rain]

💀

i took a short nap

but i woke up now

its done 😎

now the decision is whether to walk back or take auto

eh ill just take an auto i dont want to work up a sweat for the 4th time today 💀

[novel condor]

Quack!

Time's up! Hope you reacted in time.

Quack!

Time's up! Hope you reacted in time.

[strange blade]

Indeed you are!

[rough sapphire]

did off-topic 1 get hacked?

[dapper dew]

No, just a very enthusiastic round of quizzing

[novel condor]

Quack!

Time's up! Hope you reacted in time.

[prime lagoon]

eradicate all dicts? that's radical

[rough sapphire]

why didn't this command work?

i have wsl installed

i am trying to use ubuntu commands everywhere

C:\Users\mint>wsl /mnt/d/ 
/bin/bash: line 1: /mnt/d/: Is a directory

C:\Users\mint>wsl cd  /mnt/d/ 

C:\Users\mint>wsl
pearson@Computer1:/mnt/c/Users/mint$ cd  /mnt/d/
pearson@Computer1:/mnt/d$ ls -l -a
ls: Config.Msi: Permission denied
ls: 'System Volume Information': Permission denied
ls: WindowsApps: Permission denied
total 4
drwxrwxrwx 1 pearson pearson 4096 Mar  9 04:08 '$RECYCLE.BIN'
drwxrwxrwx 1 pearson pearson 4096 Apr  2 00:00  .
drwxr-xr-x 8 root    root    4096 Mar 17 22:32  ..
d--x--x--x 1 pearson pearson 4096 Apr  1 20:29  Config.Msi
drwxrwxrwx 1 pearson pearson 4096 Mar 30 20:26  DeliveryOptimization
dr-xr-xr-x 1 pearson pearson 4096 Apr  1 21:40  MapData
dr-xr-xr-x 1 pearson pearson 4096 Apr  1 01:31 'Program Files'
d--x--x--x 1 pearson pearson 4096 Mar 30 20:14 'System Volume Information'
drwxrwxrwx 1 pearson pearson 4096 Mar 29 16:10  Users
d--x--x--x 1 pearson pearson 4096 Apr  1 23:54  WindowsApps
dr-xr-xr-x 1 pearson pearson 4096 Apr  1 23:54  WpSystem
drwxrwxrwx 1 pearson pearson 4096 Apr  1 20:26  mint
drwxrwxrwx 1 pearson pearson 4096 Apr  1 20:21  ocean
pearson@Computer1:/mnt/d$

It worked after starting wsl.

[foggy jungle]

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to accomplish

[rough sapphire]

I am using windows 11

I have installed WSL

I am trying to learn ubuntu commands for terminal emulator [ probably this is not the correct way of saying it ]

I tried to use wsl commands directly on command prompt

some commands did not work

[foggy jungle]

just run wsl and ... use wsl then? I'm not sure why you're trying to invoke WSL commands to navigate PowerShell when many of the commands are aliased anyway

[rough sapphire]

Okay. I will do it from now.

[foggy jungle]

The problem is probably that /mnt/ is not yet initialized when you're running WSL like that.

[solemn tulip]

||cd happy, cd sad||

[novel condor]

Quack!

Time's up! Hope you reacted in time.

[rough sapphire]

Nice computer name

Syrup

[foggy jungle]

Thank you

[solemn tulip]

high viscosity computing

[foggy jungle]

I would say this is reflective of my average use of WSL, where PowerShell is being used as an entirely seperate layer to interface with things outside of WSL, and the Ubuntu terminal exists to facilitate interaction in WSL.

[rough sapphire]

nice theme

[foggy jungle]

I wouldn't try to mix the two too much insofar as actually trying to navigate WSL2 inline in Powershell. It gets a little weird.

[rough sapphire]

you've installed ubuntu too

why does it look different than mine?

[foggy jungle]

https://github.com/import-pandas-as-numpy/system-configurations/blob/main/general/zsh/.zshrc

(Ignore the project description there, it's caught in the 'too many projects' pipeline and contains nothing except my zshrc dotfile because I have too much crap going on.)

With some observation you can figure out where I stole the prompt from too 😛

The color is handled in Terminal settings though

[rough sapphire]

Okay but I don't think I can install this without instructions.

🙂

[rough sapphire]

I know about the themes

but I was wondering about the lines

[

~

You like the lamda a lot

🙂

[foggy jungle]

sudo apt install zsh
wget https://raw.githubusercontent.com/import-pandas-as-numpy/system-configurations/main/general/zsh/.zshrc -o ~/.zshrc
sudo chsh /bin/zsh
source ~/.zshrc```

wait shit hold on

[rough sapphire]

Okay, I will try it later.

[foggy jungle]

don't do that i'm stupid

[rough sapphire]

It's okay. You can share later.

[foggy jungle]

fixdit.

I've found some interesting quirks with WSL and switching shells which leads me to simply closing and reopening my terminal every time I chsh in WSL. I'm not sure if that's a skill issue though.

[rough sapphire]

pearson@Computer1:/mnt/d$ python
Command 'python' not found, did you mean:
  command 'python3' from deb python3
  command 'python' from deb python-is-python3
pearson@Computer1:/mnt/d$ python3
Python 3.10.12 (main, Nov 20 2023, 15:14:05) [GCC 11.4.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> print("Hello, Python Discord Server\n")
Hello, Python Discord Server

Discord supports Powershell formatting too. Cool stuff.

[rough sapphire]

I guess you are a very experienced programmer

Why do you need to switch shells?

[fathom musk]

Can you send screenshot? I cannot see on mobile.

[foggy jungle]

I am not an experienced programmer 🥴
I just find myself in need of Linux a lot, so I like to have a standard environment.

[young shoal]

🤣

[rough sapphire]

I have no experience , so everyone here have a lot more knowledge than me for sure.

Let's discuss something

I want to make a survey website.

It should be able to directly play audio files

I think it's called embedding

I didn't find any survey site that can do that

[iron veldt]

is linux your daily drive? i might change later on since windows 11 is pretty slow

i'm not sure which distro is the most beginner friendly one

[foggy jungle]

Windows 11 is my daily driver.

Mint is my recommendation to get started with Linux.

[timid latch]

Ubunto is also kind of the defacto one

[iron veldt]

does it work nice as a daily drive?

[foggy jungle]

I deliberately avoided mentioning Ubuntu because I think in its effort to be... user friendly, it kind of takes away the magic of Linux from you and you just end up not really learning anything.

[timid latch]

fair point

it depends on why you want linux I guess

[gritty zinc]

also it's by can🤢nical

[iron veldt]

i'm really just looking for a daily drive that works as nice as something like windows 10

[foggy jungle]

Mint is fantastic-- it's Ubuntu without Snap, so less training wheels, but with that you get a bit more granular control over your OS without hopping through hoops, and still a convenient user experience.

[iron veldt]

w10 is going off support in 2025 so i don't know what os i should run next 🤷‍♂️

[timid latch]

some people just want a free os, some want something they can tinker with, somebody want to learn about linux, etc

[gritty zinc]

i'm on mint cinnamon; it's good

[young shoal]

windows 11

[foggy jungle]

W11 with WSL2 is unironically not bad.

[young shoal]

4670 🥴

[foggy jungle]

eek.

[iron veldt]

w11 will be very slow on this

[young shoal]

i had a i5-4690k until recently

[foggy jungle]

You're missing some pretty nice security features as well. TPM gud.

[iron veldt]

🤷‍♂️ dont even know what that is

[timid latch]

does linux even support secure boot without a bunch of hassel?

[foggy jungle]

Trusted Platform Module, it's the root of trust for your system.

[foggy jungle]

I don't actually know. I know Ubuntu has been rolling out some features in that regard.

Not sure where they're at on that whole thing though.

[iron veldt]

how do linux distros work by the way

like ubuntu i know is run by different people

[timid latch]

last time I looked at (which was a few years back tbf) you had to sign the kernel your self, and any kernel modules you use, and drivers

[iron veldt]

does each distro have different developers

[timid latch]

many build on other distros

so yes and no, there is a group of developers specific to each distro, but linux it self is developed over decades by houndreds of people

[foggy jungle]

Most of the Linux distributions are based off of either Debian or Fedora. The involvement in development from there is typically in user experience and additional features.

[young shoal]

or lack of features 🗿

[foggy jungle]

Or lack of features. 😔

[iron veldt]

i see

[foggy jungle]

[rough sapphire]

Let's say, I want to make a website like this. What are the steps?

[timid latch]

step 1) decide on a framework (or lack of)

[rough sapphire]

I want to be able to create graphs like google forms after the survey too

[foggy jungle]

Step 1.) Learn Javascript.
Step 2.) Learn how to play sounds with Javascript.
Step 3.) ???
Step 4.) Profit

[rough sapphire]

Can't i do this with only python?

[willow narwhal]

Or don't learn Javascript and use HTML5 only

[timid latch]

on a unrelated note, rust analyzer has just started doing randomly while I am working on a project, started yesterday 😦

[willow narwhal]

Only Python and no HTML? Perhaps with anvil?

[young shoal]

can't html play audio

[rough sapphire]

is this a question or statement ?

[willow narwhal]

It can

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/audio

[foggy jungle]

Huh. I didn't know that actually.

[timid latch]

ARGGGGGhhhhh, I just hit a key combo in vim that actually did something useful and now I have no clue wtf it was

[foggy jungle]

lul

[rough sapphire]

read the documentaion , i guess

[willow narwhal]

You absolutely can do all of this without Javascript, if you want. I'd recommend using HTMX or something like that to not go insane though.

[willow narwhal]

What was the useful thing?

[timid latch]

expand the lsp warning/hints/errors into a bigger box so I could actually read them, I have been looking for that for ever but never found it

and it just happend

AND IDK HOW I DID IT

[willow narwhal]

The quickfix window?

[timid latch]

maybe?

[young shoal]

K probably

[willow narwhal]

<C-W>-?

[timid latch]

no, now I just have a bunch of blank lines at the bottom of my screen

[young shoal]

try just KK

[rough sapphire]

anvil looks nice

do you guys have experience with making websites?

[timid latch]

that opened the symbol information thing, not the lint

[young shoal]

oh the warnings

<space>e?

[timid latch]

hmm, looked up plugin docs, :RustLsp renderDiagnostic should do it... but it isnt

oh wait, diagnostic.goto_next() opens it, I must have that bound to something

diagnostic.open_float() found it!

how the hell did I miss that a few months back

time to bind that to somethind

[young shoal]

🎉

[timid latch]

well thanks for being good rubber ducks

[fringe rain]

So y'all know any screenshot tools for arch/hyprland

I need that aesthetic window dropshadow

[jaunty wraith]

I used to use scrot and a custom script for i3

[lament cairn]

https://vxtwitter.com/rikunow/status/1775161036628455861.mp4

Listen carefully

[fresh basalt]

what an unfortunate name

[grave cove]

why they make that noise

[lament cairn]

bird

[grave cove]

that aint no bird bro

[carmine apex]

it is

just not a lousy robin like you

[cursive salmon]

best logger

[brazen ingot]

how long will this pink last

[digital oracle]

a few minutes /s

[brazen ingot]

@jagged tulip you need to work for it like we Tuples did. ||&games join||
in #bot-commands

[jagged tulip]

i figured there was something to it but i couldnt find any info on it, thank you

[brazen ingot]

let the luck play the role for ya.

[jagged tulip]

i assume its random? XD thank you though bc i had no idea where this came from

[brazen ingot]

arbitarily chosen, yes but now people going for it even though they didn't participate in the actual event.

[jagged tulip]

what was the event? bc if i had known i probaly would have participated i just have most channels hidden XD

i only saw the banner change and started looking but couldnt find any info

[wraith hound]

see the two most recent #announcements

[jagged tulip]

what do you know i didnt even look in that channel when i went searching now im bummed i missed out

[digital oracle]

dawn is in team list I had no idea
well, too late now.

[digital oracle]

you can always subscribe to pings in #roles, by the way :)

[idle elbow]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY DID THE TEAM DICT WIN LIST

DICT SUCKS

[marble bay]

!e

print(list.__dict__)

[royal lake]

@marble bay :white_check_mark: Your 3.12 eval job has completed with return code 0.

{'__new__': <built-in method __new__ of type object at 0x7f138c0a16e0>, '__repr__': <slot wrapper '__repr__' of 'list' objects>, '__hash__': None, '__getattribute__': <slot wrapper '__getattribute__' of 'list' objects>, '__lt__': <slot wrapper '__lt__' of 'list' objects>, '__le__': <slot wrapper '__le__' of 'list' objects>, '__eq__': <slot wrapper '__eq__' of 'list' objects>, '__ne__': <slot wrapper '__ne__' of 'list' objects>, '__gt__': <slot wrapper '__gt__' of 'list' objects>, '__ge__': <slot wrapper '__ge__' of 'list' objects>, '__iter__': <slot wrapper '__iter__' of 'list' objects>, '__init__': <slot wrapper '__init__' of 'list' objects>, '__len__': <slot wrapper '__len__' of 'list' objects>, '__getitem__': <method '__getitem__' of 'list' objects>, '__setitem__': <slot wrapper '__setitem__' of 'list' objects>, '__delitem__': <slot wrapper '__delitem__' of 'list' objects>, '__add__': <slot wrapper '__add__' of 'list' objects>, '__mul__': <slot wrapper '__mul__' of 'list' objects>, 
... (truncated - too long)

Full output: https://paste.pythondiscord.com/DPWRYKOHRBNJUIA7ZNYSIP76VA

[marble bay]

🧠

[idle elbow]

what

[marble bay]

even lists use dicts /j

[idle elbow]

k

[naive igloo]

and dicts can be lists!

sort of

[cloud oxide]

bruh

[cursive salmon]

there's literally a tag named audio

[ruby fox]

Hmm

[hybrid root]

lmao L

[rough sapphire]

Hi, guys

Let's make a dekstop version of Aegis authenticator

[glossy niche]

https://tenor.com/view/portal-portal-meme-chamber-test-meme-gif-13230225298318729318

[jovial oriole]

Honestly 🗣️🗣️

We love our current administration

[glossy niche]

nice token grabber bro

this the shit that they put in liblzma

[jovial oriole]

too real

[foggy jungle]

cat

[fathom musk]

I am a paranormal tuple 👻

[lament cairn]

https://vxtwitter.com/ComoZoo/status/1775540508192096276
blind snow leopard

[crystal spruce]

i've been doing cmd c delete for my entire life

while knowing cmd x exists

and only now was i like "wait why am i not just doing cmd x"

[strange blade]

Cmd X?!

[crystal spruce]

cut

i think it's because i've gotten used to dd and p in nvim

[strange blade]

Lol.

I kinda use cmd x for deleting things I don’t want.

[timid latch]

I often use cut even if I don't need the content, it's just easier than reaching for backspace

[fathom musk]

Cmd X instead of ctrl X sounds weird

[fresh basalt]

Not if you use a Mac.

[fathom musk]

Everyone agreed to call it ctrl instead of them

Makes them the weirdo

[fresh basalt]

I mean the slogan is "Think different".

It's part of their branding.

[graceful basin]

@chrome junco as per ISO C, that is undefined behaviour and a well-formed program may not do that.

[chrome junco]

wdym?

[graceful basin]

ISO C, the standard document for what the C programming language is, does not allow you to do that.

Your compiler usually does since they can either define it or just do something arbitrary

but the C language itself is remarkably limited

[chrome junco]

bet it is, why tf would you call a function somewhere random in memory
but even then, all the pointer arithmetics, memory management and all that is one of the most powerfull ones in the world
even then, bet assembly gives you more power, and, funily enough, you can import assembly from C

[graceful basin]

pointer arithmetic can be done in python. Memory management is one of the weakest in any programming language, it's literally just give me memory and have memory back (and technically extend this bit of memory)

[chrome junco]

pointer arithmetic can be done in python using C extensions or ctypes (which is, indeed a C extension)

[graceful basin]

C is useful because of its stable ABI letting you access low-level operating system stuff

outside of swift, no other language has a stable ABI because it is a nightmare to do.

[jovial oriole]

pointer arithmetic in python??????

[graceful basin]

that's it. The language itself is an awful mess of a PDP-11 structured assembler turned super portable ISO standard

[jovial oriole]

when did happen

[fresh basalt]

🧂

[graceful basin]

ctypes

[jovial oriole]

ah ok

[chrome junco]

ISO standart only exists because people don't know how to use this kind of low-level control correctly

I have no proof and no doubt

[fresh basalt]

ISO exists so the world can do business.

[graceful basin]

the ISO standard exists so that you can write portable C code

[fresh basalt]

C is Serious Business.

[graceful basin]

otherwise, every C implementation would be mutually incompatible and you couldn't write code in a way that would work on all of them.

[jovial oriole]

real

[chrome junco]

the kernel is really helping there

but yeah, I undestand it's important the portability

but I dare you name a language that's still used that gives you the power C gives you

[graceful basin]

Of course, if you all you have is one very specific piece of hardware, and you just want your program to run on that (as is typical on embedded systems), you use C++. BUT if your hardware vendor sucks, you can also make do with C.
A lot of the automotive industry runs a special set of policies atop C that make the language more or less memory safe.

[fresh basalt]

lakamtolol just doesn't like Serious Business.

[chrome junco]

yeah, I've noticed

[graceful basin]

C++, unsafe rust, any flavour of assembly, objC, swift, V, odin, zig.

[jovial oriole]

yeah, I've noticed

[fresh basalt]

Doesn't want to get dressed up in their business suit and go to the business factory.

[graceful basin]

technically nim

In some very specific cases, Java

I've seen java code do pointer arithmetic via compiler intrinsics

[fresh basalt]

Spooky.

[chrome junco]

C++ ain't that powerfull, it usually relies on the kernel for a couple of things, unsafe rust, I give you that, but it's a pain to use,
I've never understood the purpose of objC in the first place, but I know it is directly based on C, I've got no idea of swift and
since when does V exists?

[chrome junco]

as of any flavour of assembly, well, yeah, sure, it gives you way more power, now, run anything that's not C directly from assembly

[graceful basin]

There are embedded systems with no kernel running C++, though it does limit the language, just like it limits C to have no kernel.

[chrome junco]

if you're using C++ without a kernel, it basically is C with a couple of fancy compiler features

[graceful basin]

those fancy compiler features matter a lot

[chrome junco]

bet they do

[graceful basin]

Pascal is probably the most common example of a language that has a non-C ABI other than swift

There is a unix kernel that can run the gnu userspace written in V and not much else.

I agree that the C ABI is uniquely prevalent, and most languages have adopted it as their way of interacting with basically everything since it's needed to interface with linux and windows. That doesn't make C a good or powerful language, it just makes it the one we ended up with.

In fact, trying to ship any sort of interesting data via the C ABI is extremely unpleasant since you are limited to the C object model.

[chrome junco]

why everyone is trash-talking C

[graceful basin]

because it sucks and constantly causes security issues

[chrome junco]

in what does it suck in?

security issues?

what you're blaming the programming language for the mistakes people do?

[fresh basalt]

I do agree with you about it being "the one we ended up with" - people love their traditions.

also programmers are lazy

[graceful basin]

no memory safety, no form of dynamic dispatch, extremely limited static dispatch, weak to no polymorphism.

[fresh basalt]

You want highways with rubber bumpers?

[chrome junco]

what, you want it to specifically tell you "no, that pointer is smaller than that" for every pointer thing you do?

[graceful basin]

I want a language to put more thought into memory management than get and unget

[chrome junco]

C? WEAK POLYMORPHISM?

JAJA

[graceful basin]

It's not hard, lisp did it decades before C

[chrome junco]

you can fucking memcpy executing C code and replace yours with it

[graceful basin]

that's not polymorphism

[fresh basalt]

different languages, different design

[chrome junco]

define polymorphism then

[graceful basin]

A single object is of multiple types

in C, that leaves you with pointer aliasing

which basically means giving structs a common prefix

or a union

[chrome junco]

....
Polymorphism for me means that code can in run-time change itself

[graceful basin]

that's not what that word means

[chrome junco]

sorry, mixed this up with this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-modifying_code#:~:text=In computer science%2C self-modifying,similar code%2C thus simplifying maintenance.

mb

yeah, polymorphism is a point indeed

[graceful basin]

oh, if you want a powerful low level language, FORTH is vastly better at that than C ever can be

[fresh basalt]

polymorphic code is what Dan was thinking about

[graceful basin]

You can rewrite the language at runtime

[fresh basalt]

I think the reuse of names is confusing

self-modifying code is fine although I get the idea behind naming it polymorphic

[chrome junco]

self-modifying code is at the same time one of the most powerfull tools there can be and one of the most dangerous

[graceful basin]

you can write self modifying code in basically any language though

[fresh basalt]

The idea behind polymorphism is that different constructions can have the same interface

in a general sense

[graceful basin]

all of minecraft modding runs on rewriting the java code of minecraft at runtime to hook into it.

[chrome junco]

it can be easier, harder, trickier or fancier, sure, but here, wheter if it's interpreter or compiled matters a lot

why tf can't I write in plain english today?

[fresh basalt]

I like FORTH

I never did anything with it outside of university.

I think the oldest language I like is Fortran.

I had a lot of fun with Fortran. It was fun to program in Fortran.

[graceful basin]

fortran is fun, yeah

[fresh basalt]

I don't know if I can remember any Fortran. :P

[chrome junco]

haven't worked with it yet, but thinking about it, I won't take long

I've heard it's hard to set it up though

[fresh basalt]

I remember wacky indexing.

[graceful basin]

fortran is fairly intuitive for the basic stuff.

[chrome junco]

that sounds nice

[graceful basin]

I did intel oneAPI for fortran when I tested it.

was remarkably straightforward, but required downloading about 10 GB of visual studio stuff

[fresh basalt]

One of my professors told a story about walking with a stack of punch cards, tripping, and inevitably the punch cards fell and got mixed up.

Imagine have a stack of 100 cards in sequence then dropping them.

If the cards got soggy or mangled you'd have to punch it again.

[chrome junco]

can someone send a link to a C/C++ disc server?
it may be a battlefield but even then I'm curious of what'll be there

[young shoal]

draw a diagonal line 👍

[fresh basalt]

and become an art major instead?

good idea

[solemn tulip]

@young shoal you have opinions on this statement?

[young shoal]

Fortran 👎

[cursive salmon]

https://discord.gg/tccpp

[stable fulcrum]

why error is misspelled?

[honest star]

reference to a funny moment where eror was misspelled when someone was !echo-ing with the bot

[timid latch]

working on a new note taking app for myself,

[honest star]

ooooh, cute

[timid latch]

I was tired of not having any apps that let me take notes how I liked.
other infinite canvas apps just didnt have the setup/features I wanted, and traditional digital note taking I am not a fan of

[honest star]

I really like the idea of being able to write under a movable sticky note for a whiteboarding app

[timid latch]

it was mainly to test that it did the layering correctly, as well as drawing on a moving object (tho idk how often that will come up)
I just havent implemented pick and drop yet

[timid latch]

and yes, I wanted to be able to have sticky notes, both for aesthetic reasons, but also for management reasons, small drawings I can move around

[glossy niche]

my very first app that wasnt a hello world was actually a note taking app

[timid latch]

it makes sense, note taking is often a very subjective thing

peoples brains work differently

[glossy niche]

true, which is why i love obsidian, its pretty customizable

[timid latch]

so different apps work for different people

I tried obsidian, it was nice, but I really want to be able to do hand written notes

and even if I am doing normal typing notes (which I will add support for) I want to be able to quickly just start drawing if I want

[honest star]

my main beef with obsidian is that it's pretty faithful to just markdown, so having live preview of side-by-side columns even as I'm typing in one of them like Notion is very hard 😔

[timid latch]

and personally for my brain I like the infinite canvas setup, being able to just jump anywhere and start working instead of cluttering the file or thinking about making a new file, etc

[glossy niche]

the faithfulness to markdown is what led me to it, everything being plain text basically means that you dont need an API for anything, just edit the file right away if you want to add your own functionality

but yeah, an abstraction between the markdown and the GUI would be nice here

obsidian actually open sourced its own canvas format: https://github.com/obsidianmd/jsoncanvas

unfortunately, does not support free drawing

https://jsoncanvas.org/ it looks like this

[honest star]

jsd;lfkjsdf;klsjfdslkfs going to have to work until like 8 or 9pm tonight gaaaah

[bleak lintel]

this will not do

[young shoal]

this does not spark joy

[eternal depot]

Time for new job

[vale raven]

You too?

[digital oracle]

I think I have similar requirements as you (infinite canvas + handwritten + typed). excalidraw was close but it's clunky to have to draw on the browser when I'm on an iPad. nebo's freeform note format was the best until they decided to limit the number of notes allowed in the free tier. the native freeform app is actually not bad but it's limited to iOS.

and I've also tried pretty much every infinite canvas app on the app store, most of them eh, some of them stayed. right now I'm keeping around 15-20 note taking apps simultaneously and using each for their own purposes

[timid latch]

I can already feel I am gonna love this thing

and also my handwriting is horrible

[idle elbow]

llolol

whats that

[timid latch]

making a custom note taking app

just got saving working, so now I can use it to plan more features for it self

[open fern]

very cooll

[timid latch]

sigh, never mind, saving is broken

well it seems consistent in what isnt saved

does local storage have a storage limit...?

Browsers can store up to 5 MiB of local storage,

I feel like the path data is going way above that ...

huh

[digital oracle]

what's it written in?

[timid latch]

Vue

[digital oracle]

cool!

[timid latch]

using svg paths

tho actually, I can save a lot of storage, I dont have to store the whole path, I do smoothing, so I can store the original jagged line, smoothing it on load should give the same result.

and my terminal just died

tho I am liking gonna run into that storage limit fast enough anyway

... arghhh I really didnt wanna bring in a backend storage solution this early

[timid latch]

okay just did that, that should now be saving 100 times less points, and in a more efficient format

tho at some point I will need to figure out a system of loading and unloading sections of a graph from a proper db

[wicked haven]

Use a stabilizer (RNote has a really good one)

[timid latch]

atm I am doing some catmull rom splines

[wicked haven]

You can abuse IndexedDB in persistent mode to store up to 50% of your disk space

[timid latch]

oh this looks perfect, totally forgot this was a thing, thanks!

[wicked haven]

Don't forget to use persistent mode

[thick ore]

ive been on Threads for a while and it is only now that i realized it was filled with millenials

was like "why are all of these people mature"

there were no shitposts there at all

[jaunty wraith]

mature
what

[digital oracle]

it's sad because threads was supposed to finally be a place where I can write walls of text for my instagram friends without being singled out since every else is posting media. but now all they're using threads for is just another place to post their pics

[stark oasis]

I made a blog post https://divsel.com/2024/04/05/making-time-for-internet-forums/

[digital oracle]

marquee 👀

[stark oasis]

it's a custom css marquee that is better than the old deprecated html one.

you can read about it in the comments

[jaunty wraith]

cheecks → cheeks

[stark oasis]

damnit

fixing the typo is going to reactivate the announcement, i wonder if i should just retire that one

I would if I had something better

[cobalt summit]

why do i keep on getting this

[glossy niche]

what are you trying to do?

[marble bay]

are you pressing f5/run or anything of the sort

I presume that's spyder?

[cobalt summit]

yes

[cobalt summit]

i figured the code was wrong

but i dont understand why it does not give me an error

[glossy niche]

we can't help you without seeing the code then, or knowing what the precise issue is

[marble bay]

sharing the code might help?

[cobalt summit]

i fixed it

if i ever get this again ill send thanks tho

[civic pasture]

Hi

[frank laurel]

A cat? Leopard??

💀

[spare harbor]

Snow leopard, fluffy murder kitty

[jaunty wraith]

cat

[stable fulcrum]

leopard is just a big cat

[frank laurel]

this looks like small leopard

or cat

[stable fulcrum]

leopards are cat

they are a type of cat

they even meow

[proper nova]

pretty loud meow tho

[stable fulcrum]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnEZfNJtfVo

@frank laurel

[frank laurel]

Yeah ik

[stable fulcrum]

though why are leopards too cute

yet dangerous, if you don't know what you are doing

[lament cairn]

Snow leopards are smaller than other big cats
Also I think it's a young snow leopard so even smaller

[proper nova]

AKSHUALLY 🤓 you are standing too far away /j

[frank laurel]

ic

[frozen crane]

@hidden raptor you're bruneian? what do people there think of the monarchy?

how do people go to the part that isn't connected to the main part?

[hidden raptor]

I am Bruneian, yes. The monarch is good. Feels like family when meeting the Sultan.

And as family goes, you'll find a few naughty ones as well as good responsible ones

[hidden raptor]

Before 2020, we go by speedboat. After 2020, we finally have a really long bridge. Ranked longest in South East Asia.

[frozen crane]

hopefully a container ship doesn't crash into it

[hidden raptor]

hahaha I know there's some height clearance but not sure. Its pretty high above the waters

[frozen crane]

a ship can always crash into one of the supports, since those go into the water.

which is what happened in the US recently

[hidden raptor]

Driving over it at night, you can definitely feel the strong winds. The car would shake and try to push you off if not careful

[hidden raptor]

I pray that won't happen 🙏

Why the sudden interest in Brunei though?

Planning for a visit?

[frozen crane]

I just saw it in your profile and have never talked to someone from there

[hidden raptor]

Ah yeah

[frozen crane]

and I like geography and stuff

[hidden raptor]

There's not many of us. About 350k to 400k I think from the last stats

[frozen crane]

this is my bathroom in real life

[hidden raptor]

I can definitely see a mention of Brunei on it. NOICE!

[hidden raptor]

I see Gaza on it. RAAAAH! 🦅

[frozen crane]

I flew to Europe two months ago via Iceland, and all the flight attendants were Icelandic, and I was like "woah, say more stuff in Icelandic"

[hidden raptor]

hahaha

[frozen crane]

also my plane almost got flamed by a volcano

[hidden raptor]

Like flew over the volcano or?

[frozen crane]

yeah, it went off while we were taking off

[hidden raptor]

whoa!

Did the plane have to do an emergency landing after that?

[frozen crane]

no, we were flying away from it. we weren't really in any danger

[hidden raptor]

Engines didn't blow out?

[frozen crane]

no

[hidden raptor]

Thank goodness

[frozen crane]

right before my phone lost data service, I got an email saying that the flight I was currently on wasn't affected by the volcano

[hidden raptor]

I heard a similar story. Someone flew a plane from Kuala Lumpur to Jakarta I think and then a volcano just erupted under the plane. Blew the engines and had to make an emergency landing at a nearby airport.

[frozen crane]

well fuck

[hidden raptor]

Not to scare you or anything hahaha

But I'm sure Aviations would share these flight cases internationally to avoid flight paths over dormant volcanos

[frozen crane]

and fly over active volcanos instead?

[hidden raptor]

Well I would leave that to thrill seeking flight experiences

hahaha

[rare sapphire]

Damn.

[reef goblet]

what is the u5martzz channel and why are there a bucnh of admins in it

[honest star]

Don't use ToS breaking client modifications, especially to gain access to information you shouldn't have. That is bannable

[reef goblet]

my bad

[lament cairn]

say Goodbye to your Discord Account

[fresh basalt]

Is u5martzz some Discord meta? I just find a support article about a user named that

[stark oasis]

Someone burned me by splashing hot grease at me and I cursed them out and got very angry. Pleasant afternoon.

the thing i was most angry about wasn't that he did something accidentally. It was that he was handling things extremely irresponsibly.

It wasnt the kind of accident that could happen to anyone, it happened because this man is an idiot

and a drug addict, which I also told him he was that.

And he didnt deny because its true

i'm telling you guys its tiring being around these fiends

[soft violet]

"Yes, we're sending you this information, because you might normally be able to see it, you might not, but we don't know so we're sending it to you, anyway. Pinky promise to not look if it's the latter."

I'd like Discord to pull the stick out of its arse re: clientside stuff.

[fresh basalt]

You should write them a stern letter.

[brazen ingot]

opal after every sentence .

[soft violet]

The idea being, the service is the API, primarily. You properly document it. You release your official client for it. But people can make their own clients, too. Any restrictions on certain behaviours are made at the server level.

[fresh basalt]

Oh, that's what you're talking about. You want customized Discord clients?

like IRC?

[soft violet]

I don't really care about having custom Discord clients for myself, but I know other people do, because their accessibility is shit, apparently.

[fresh basalt]

They already open their API up to bots - that seems to be the way they want to make Discord "extensible".

Unfortunately that doesn't really work for anything UI-related.

[soft violet]

Also, just from an information systems design perspective. Why give people information then complain about them looking at it? It's unhinged.

It's like that guy they charged with hacking for using view source.

Not Discord, the us gov.

"Hurdurr this guy accessed our information we were sent him, hackurr!"

[fresh basalt]

lol

I was looking up information about Jason Citron (Discord CEO)

AI win

This might be too bad for AI though, idk

[fresh basalt]

When you refer to the Cole County Prosecutor (or Missouri state government in general) in broad strokes as "the US gov" I hope your tongue is firmly in your cheek. :P

Anyways, I don't think Discord/Citron was focused too much on good design when he fired all those developers and pivoted to chat. I think he just wanted to get users.

Good design was an afterthought.

[soft violet]

Law enforcement is an aspect of the Judicial Branch of the US government, so, yes, US gov, even when they have their heads up their own arses.

[fresh basalt]

usually when people refer to the US government they mean the feds though

[soft violet]

Turns out there are law enforcement agencies under all three branches.

As in, agencies under one, different agencies under another, etc.

[fresh basalt]

Our government is very complex.

Different states can do things a bit differently.

like social services here in TX suck ass compared to social services in Oregon (where I used to live).

[lament cairn]

Trying to upload an image but it isn't sending and I can't tell if it's Discord CDN dying again or my internet being slow

[acoustic moss]

can we blame dns

[lament cairn]

Nope, not this time

[acoustic moss]

there's no way its dns

[undone thorn]

so cute it's dangerous

[grave cove]

Peek

[prime lagoon]

i wish there was something to replace the internals as well. so i can hear without my hearing aid. but that complicates my sleep though

[cursive salmon]

"he worked as a gaming console"

[tardy rain]

he was getting played, thats what happens to unknowing game devs

[lament cairn]

legs

[grave cove]

😳

[solemn tulip]

🦾 🐱 🍤

[glossy niche]

https://youtu.be/s0qc130R55Y

[stable fulcrum]

https://tenor.com/view/bodybuilder-bodybuilding-muscle-muscles-gif-21822019

[undone thorn]

@limpid lynx #python-discussion message A brain without any inputs probably wouldn't be conscious, but machine learning models have inputs. Those senses are just translated into electrical inputs to the brain, in the same way a model would take inputs

[limpid lynx]

so a model would be conscious to some level

not as much as the brain

[rough sapphire]

i think the question is the following

we know a computer is basically a glorified list

everything there "is" there, is actually living in our minds

[limpid lynx]

?

[rough sapphire]

is this chat in the computer, or is it half-way imaginary in our minds

[stable fable]

I think if an organism organic or inorganic is capable of choice it becomes sentient. We can probably mimic that pretty easily with the right code.

[limpid lynx]

how is it imaginary? its very real

[undone thorn]

couldn't you make the same reductive argument about the brain though

[rough sapphire]

when you create a program and make it run, is it not a figment of your thought expressed in silicone?

[limpid lynx]

so youre saying, the entire code of lets say minecraft isnt real?

[rough sapphire]

imagine all humans die, and 1000000 years from now a new species appear in the world

and finds a stone with our markings in it

[limpid lynx]

unlikely but ok go on

mhm

[undone thorn]

what do we define as choice though? does an ameoba that reacts to light and moves towards it make a choice? or a plant that grows upwards towards the sun?

[rough sapphire]

lets say its arabic numbers, not even letters, to make it simpler and more global

those cuts in the stone, that we see as "1, 2, 3"

its nothing for them

the meaning of the markings is in us

[limpid lynx]

neither of those are choices because its hard wired in the organisms to react in the same way in every example of the same situation

[rough sapphire]

the same way, the meaning of what computers do is in our mind, when you use any program in a computer the program is halfway in your mind and halfway in the computer

[limpid lynx]

yes

im sorry what?

[rough sapphire]

let me see if i can make an example of what i mean

[undone thorn]

imo the universe is deterministic, given the exact same environment and brain state, every person would make the exact same "choice", there is only one action you will ever take given some set of circumstances

[rough sapphire]

look at a drawing program that uses brushes and a blank square as UI

[stable fable]

I mean choice being able to choose if it wants to eat or not to eat. Able to decide what it wants to do like. Like a snail is conscious but it's not rational. Plants only react to light due to chemicals in its body so it doesnt decide where to go

[rough sapphire]

there's a symbolic thing going on there, its refering to analogical drawing/painting

the drawing program itself exists half in the computer and half in your mind

as a metaphor for analogical art

maybe in 1k years from now, when nobody has ever drawn in a piece of paper

[limpid lynx]

wouldnt it also depend on the background of the person, if they had the exact same childhood or not, even then some children would develop in a different way and end up chooding different

[rough sapphire]

there will be another UI for visual-art software

because, my point being, the computer is actually sort of imaginary, if that makes sense

[undone thorn]

the environment and brain state of those two people is different, if you take the exact same person and give them the exact same upbringing and experiences, then place them in the exact same scenario, they will make the exact same choice

[rough sapphire]

like the markings in the stone i used earlier as an example, there is actually nothing meaningful there

it all works in connection with our minds

its just an extension of our minds

[undone thorn]

but are choices not just a result of the chemistry and physics in your brain + the environment? is there anything outside of that which determines what happens?

[limpid lynx]

youre right about that

[undone thorn]

my point here is that we are reacting to stimulus in the exact same way as a plant or an ameoba, just the factors are much, much more complex

[limpid lynx]

thets how we interpret those things

[rough sapphire]

emergent qualities and stuff

[limpid lynx]

but we do have the ability to judge the stimulus and react in a certain way i.e. choose, the plants and amoeba dont. However as you said, in a completely identical scenario, the choice would be the same as well

[stable fable]

You have a point, which is why I think we can create artificial consciousness with the tools we have available. But I think to a certain degree the other factor that determines choice is the desire of the organism.

Example: Hunger being one of out more primal desires
When an organism is hungry it chooses to eat. When it's not hungry it eats.

A plant just reacts to sun light due to chemicals. But the Snail has the ability to decide if it's hungry or not enough to eat or to avoid danger when it senses pain. It's capable of simple thoughts if hurt == True then avoid.

[undone thorn]

but us judging the stimulus is just the brain taking an input + it's current state, then giving some output right? like you said in any given scenario you would react the same way given the same state, are we really making choices if there is only one possible outcome of any given scenario?

[rough sapphire]

the real problem in that argument is not of degree, meaning, is not that we can or cannot create a feedback system as complex as an amoeba

is where its coming from

[limpid lynx]

how is there one possible outcome?

[rough sapphire]

all this talk has as a primer the idea that function = essence

we can probably already create more complex systems than, say, a single cell organism

[limpid lynx]

defnitely

[rough sapphire]

the problem to me is the main question here

[limpid lynx]

the current state would be a big keyword here, it is really what all the processing is based on

[rough sapphire]

and is that i believe these systems are only meaningful inside our minds

[stable fable]

I agree, recreating a simple cell organism is code is easy looking at the game of life game.

[undone thorn]

isn't the feeling of being hungry a result of more chemicals in the snail's brain? if a snail doesn't produce those hunger chemicals for example it will starve to death, and if it does it will try to find something to eat, in the same way that if a plant detects light it will move towards it, if a snail has a certain brain state it will try to eat. regardless of the amount of factors the deterministic nature of the "choice" remains the same imo

[rough sapphire]

lol no, that would be recreating replication mechanisms

i mean replicating the complexity of a system such as a simple cell organism

or whatever is the simplest living thing

[undone thorn]

right but the current state is a result of the previous state + environment, and the state before that is the result of state + environment, you can take that back all the way to the beginning of the universe

[rough sapphire]

our most complex software is probably nearing in complexity to that

the question here is more philosophical than anything else

which is about the nature of information

[limpid lynx]

but if the snail does find food, it may sense danger and decide its better to not eat. Now sensing danger, there could a snail which has become "brave" and think it isnt dangerous and go eat but a "coward" snail could stay behind. If they were identical, the decision would be the same, so it depends on biological and genetic variation which determines the actual structure of our brain, or in this case the snail's brain

[rough sapphire]

you are missing the point by trying to argue if the snail has a soul or is a complex feedback system of chemical reactions

[limpid lynx]

yes, in my example of being coward and brave, previous experiences of the snail do account so the result of previous state+environment is correct

[stable fable]

I mean that's where evolution comes into play, with survival. But imagine this the snail may be hungry due to chemical signals in it's brain. Now it sees a potential predator. Snails that have the ability to decide to either prioritize seizing the food or to avoid the predator.

[stable fable]

I see your point actually

[rough sapphire]

you are asking if the snail is individuated or if its merely a thought in god's brain

[undone thorn]

ofc I agree there, but the biological and genetic variation were not choices made by the snail. Those were the state of it's brain + environment at T(0) the time of it's birth. I'm not saying all organisms will make the same choice, I'm saying any organism given the same state and environment will only ever take a single action

[limpid lynx]

yes

[limpid lynx]

a snail is real, idk what you mean about "a thought in god's brain"

[rough sapphire]

take it as a metaphor if you don't believe in god

[stable fable]

I mean not every organism. Humans would react differently given the same situation.

[undone thorn]

could you give an example?

[stable fable]

Even dogs actually have different temperments

[rough sapphire]

is the snail an individuated entity or is it part of a mesh of feedback reactions

[limpid lynx]

that again is becuase the human's brain have a different state of brain, we are more capable to hunt, so less scared

[rough sapphire]

thats what you are ultimately asking

[undone thorn]

exactly

my argument is that every organism is a mesh of feeback reactions

[rough sapphire]

the mesh of feedback reactions is god's thought

[undone thorn]

so differentiating between simple state machines and complex ones doesn't make sense, at least for the idea of choices

[limpid lynx]

every single thing in the universe is a mesh of feedback, the sun glows because of gravity and nuclear fission

[rough sapphire]

i agree with this, i think the problem comes when you are comparing it with other logical meshes like our own symbolic systems

[stable fable]

I mean a simple example would be twins, they are genetically identical in everyway and they grow up in the same environment yet they develop different interests

[rough sapphire]

i repeat, a computer's output is imaginary

it exists in our mind

[undone thorn]

I think this is stretching the definition of "the same environment" they are not having the exact same experiences, one goes outside and the other stays indoors for example, for whatever reason they end up having different experiences and their brain states diverge

[rough sapphire]

the same way a snail exists only in "god's mind"

[limpid lynx]

that would be because they are exposed to slightly different conditions and life experiences, there are plenty cases of identical twins being polar opposites

[limpid lynx]

it isnt imaginary, lets say we ran a program and it gave some meaningful output, then humans became extinct and theres a new species, they would still see the output although it makes no meaning to them

[stable fable]

Yes but they are the same biologically, cause why won't both of them just go outside or why don't both of them just stay indoors. They are capable of choosing which way they want to go.

[rough sapphire]

thats the point, its not meaningful

[limpid lynx]

if every single second of their life was identical, they would choose the same

[rough sapphire]

like the example of carvings in a rock

yeah you can maybe say there was an intention there

but whatever that was, whatever that meant, is not existing anymore

[limpid lynx]

if its not meaningful, doesnt mean it doesnt exist

[rough sapphire]

if you grabbed an alien and threw it into a city, make it drive a car

[undone thorn]

because of their brain states already having diverged before they were able to make choices, their experiences are never exactly the same for the entirety of their existences after birth. As a baby one the father held one and the mother held the other, they have already gotten different brain states before making any choices due to a change in environment

[rough sapphire]

the whole semaphore system would mean nothing to them

yeah, there are lights going on, and they have a meaning

but the whole traffic system is completely lost

is not embedded in the lights themselves

[limpid lynx]

they could learn by seeing

[rough sapphire]

maybe is a wrong example cause its probably easy to figure out

but think of any complex system

[limpid lynx]

everything can be figured out by some time

[rough sapphire]

not necessarily

[limpid lynx]

we are becoming closer to deciphering the heiroglyphs

[rough sapphire]

i don't remember exactly the rosseta stone story

but i think it kinda shows that

the main leap was when we got a midpoint in order to translate markings into a symbolic set we already knew

[stable fable]

I mean what your suggesting basically removes choices and free will. If everything is predetermined since that organism will always choose x or y based on a or b.

[limpid lynx]

so as a species, they keep learning things slowly and inventing more as they go, eventually they will figure it out

[rough sapphire]

we project a lot of our minds into the world

[limpid lynx]

yes, it is like that

[undone thorn]

yeah exactly, I'm a determinist, I don't believe in that concept of free will

[stable fable]

But isn't it your free will to go to discord right now?

[undone thorn]

it's a philosophical conclusion from the idea that the universe is 100% material

[limpid lynx]

but in reality, in the actual world, we can make choices

[undone thorn]

it's a choice I've made as a result of my brain state and environment

[rough sapphire]

matter is not 100% material lol

[undone thorn]

wdym?

[stable fable]

I mean I would hope so. But if everything is predetermined state. Wouldn't that mean the world will and always conclude to only 1 possible outcome?

[rough sapphire]

can you pinpoint anything as the material building block of reality?

[rough sapphire]

if i know what choice you will make, does that mean you do not make a choice?

[stable fable]

I mean but from your theory it's not a choice you were always meant to go to discord.

[stable fable]

Hmmm...

Ok that's deep

[limpid lynx]

yes

[stable fable]

I would say you predicted my choice, but that choice I still made.

[rough sapphire]

or i know you more than you know yourself

[undone thorn]

right maybe I should be more precise, naturalism, I don't mean that everything is matter there are forces and quantum field theory and all that, I mean those phenomena are deterministic and there is no randomness, they will react a certain way given a certain stimulus even if we can't predict how they will react yet

[limpid lynx]

i would say in the grand scheme of things, we dont really get to do anything, we;re just an organism following the laws of nature but in our little world, we do make choices

[rough sapphire]

yeah i agree with that

[limpid lynx]

quantum theory proves randomness tho

[undone thorn]

well yeah, that's what I'm arguing

[undone thorn]

no it doesn't

[rough sapphire]

i think that its an asymmetric information thing

from our standpoint we do not know what we will chose

but an omniscient being could know what we will do

[undone thorn]

there are multiple interpretations of quantum theories, the Heisenberg interpretation uses the idea that quantum particles are non-deterministic and is the most popular one which is why people say that, but the many worlds interpretation is deterministic and gives the exact same conclusions

[timid latch]

well it is deterministic in a sense, but also you cant predict what universe you will end up with (by definition you will be both wrong and right)

[rough sapphire]

that doesn't make the choice any less real

[stable fable]

I love having existentialism, I mean even if you do know more about me and even if my moves are predeictable they are still my moves and choices.

[timid latch]

in the grand sceheme of things it isnt random, but on the level of induvidual branches it is

[undone thorn]

if you knew all the starting conditions and every function of the laws of physics, and had some impossible level of computation that could calculate everything my argument is you could know exactly what happens in the universe (laplace's demon).

[rough sapphire]

why do you call it existentialism?

[rough sapphire]

god basically

[stable fable]

Having an existential crisis right now, considering I'm pondering if my existence was always meant to exist for the condition of meeting person x or y so they can do a or b thing that was always meant to happen.

[rough sapphire]

oh

[undone thorn]

I'm not saying that's possible, just that the philosophical idea of determinism that I subscribe to would have that conclusion

[rough sapphire]

read descartes discourse on method

[timid latch]

right, you could know what would happen in every possible branch, but you woudlnt know what branch you will go down... well you would go down both, if that makes sense? like the machine could tell you "in 3 months you will die, or get a ice-cream", both would happen in different branches

[undone thorn]

I don't think there are branches, that's my point

[stable fable]

Like the theory of no free will doesn't it also lead down a path that your existence does serve a purpose as well so I guess that's a little positivity on it.

[timid latch]

then how does many worlds work then without a branching universe?

[stable fable]

His theory states only one possible outcome.

Like it will always lead to x or y and you were always meant to do a or b.

[undone thorn]

it is a heuristic, the idea is founded on the assumption that we can't possibly know all the wave functions of 10^33 particles, not that there literally are many universes

[rough sapphire]

i think the issue with this comes from thinking you are locked into a or b and cannot escape

while actually it means you naturally will go into a or b

[undone thorn]

tbf I wouldn't call MWI the holy grail, it was just an example of how quantum physics doesn't prove non-determinism

[rough sapphire]

its a sort of god fear

[stable fable]

I mean that's the thing though isn't it. If there's no free will you are locked into it.

[rough sapphire]

i asked you before, is it that you have no free will or that your decisions can be predicted by someone who knows everything

[limpid lynx]

this is like schrodinger's cat

[stable fable]

Hmmm...

[rough sapphire]

what you fear is that you are locked into an evil determination

[timid latch]

locked in as in the sense it will naturally happen, not locked in in the sense of a prophecy where the universe pushes you thru the door

[rough sapphire]

thats whats at the bottom of it

you fear you have no way to avoid the disaster that is written for your future

a very greek tragedy sort of thing

[limpid lynx]

you said before nothing is random, what about flipping a coin

[timid latch]

that is proven not to be random

[undone thorn]

flipping a coin is not random, you can make a robot to exactly flip to whichever head you want if you know the physics of the flip

[timid latch]

there are robots that flip the same side with 100% accuracy

[limpid lynx]

you have no way of saying with 100% guarantee the outcome

[timid latch]

jinx!

[undone thorn]

lol

[limpid lynx]

im talking about a human doing an actual coin flip, without any tricks

[stable fable]

I mean if my decisions can be predicted that doesn't imply that I have only one choice to make. But in a world where free will doesn't exist there is only one possible outcome

[limpid lynx]

you can never be 100% sure of head or tail

[undone thorn]

that's just because a human doesn't know the exact amount of force and formulas involved in flipping the coin, it's not random it's just unknown

[timid latch]

thats because we cant know the exact state of the universe, not because its random

[rough sapphire]

both mean the outcome is already set at t=0

[timid latch]

"I dont know what we are having for dinner" doesnt mean its random, you just simply dont know

in theory if a human has the same control of their muscles as a robot they could know the output beforehand

[limpid lynx]

what about a random number generator

[undone thorn]

those are pseudo random

[timid latch]

define random number generator

[stable fable]

I mean in that case I don't really have a choice cause that choice is the one that was already decided.

[timid latch]

because computers are completely deterministic, which is why they often seed their rng from mouse movements and similar

[rough sapphire]

another way to look at it is that you have all choices, but someone alredy knows what you are going to chose

[timid latch]

still not actually random, but much harder to predict

[limpid lynx]

true, let me think of another example

[rough sapphire]

@stable fable i mean, is not "decided", its predictable

[undone thorn]

I mean if you can predict with 100% accuracy then it is decided right?

[rough sapphire]

by whom?

[undone thorn]

by the laws of the universe

[timid latch]

ah, there we have something.
the definition of "decided"

[rough sapphire]

if i can predict 100% of your choices does that mean someone else than you decides them?

or does it mean i know you very deeply

[timid latch]

does it imply a intelligent thing made a choose, or just the consequences of some laws

[limpid lynx]

it just means you are good at predicting his choices

[undone thorn]

yeah vivax is right this is a bit of a slippery definition "decided", there is no decision if you know what is going to happen, it's just a result of state+environment until it happens

[rough sapphire]

you can decide by yourself

and i can know you enough to anticipate your decision

just because i know what you will do doesn't mean you aren't doing it

[undone thorn]

my argument in the first place is there is no "decision" because that implies there are multiple possible outcomes

there is a single outcome of brain state + environment from birth to death

[rough sapphire]

there's an asymmetrical information state

you are deciding

but i know what you will decide

deciding doesn't mean multiple possible outcomes

it means free will

[limpid lynx]

@undone thorn is trying to argue that there is no deciding in the first place

[undone thorn]

if there is only one possible outcome of a decision, you are given two ice creams at t(100) and you will choose vanilla, you will never decide to choose chocolate given the same state and environment, I wouldn't even call that a decision

[rough sapphire]

i know, but im trying to argue that knowing what you will decide does not mean you are not deciding

[rough sapphire]

i think you would be wrong, you are thinking future exists before the present

[timid latch]

this comes down to the definition of "decide"

and what it means to make a "choose"

[rough sapphire]

and that decision takes place as a sort of walking of a predetermined path

[limpid lynx]

that is basically his point, everything has been fixed

[undone thorn]

that's the point of the deterministic argument, if you had all the information you could know exactly what will happen, you could in essence know the future

[timid latch]

if it means the brain considered two options and picked one, then yes a decision is made.
BUT the brain would always come to that same decision.

[stable fable]

In a nutshell

[rough sapphire]

i know, but im arguing another point of view

nothing is fixed, but there's enough information to accurately predict what will happen

if you are an omniscient being

[stable fable]

I mean if it's predictable it's not decided but if outcome would always be the same then that becomes decided.

[limpid lynx]

if you can accurately predict something, means you will be right, isnt it fixed then?

[undone thorn]

I don't agree that nothing is fixed

[rough sapphire]

no, you are thinking that the outcome already exists before it comes to be

im saying the outcome hasn't happened but is expectable

[timid latch]

this kind of depends on the nature of time

[undone thorn]

the outcome already exists because there physically could not be another outcome, say I give you 2+2= and you say 4, that is not knowing the future to say it is 4, it is a fixed outcome

[rough sapphire]

no, 4 already existed before you thought of summing 2+2

[timid latch]

if time exists all at once in some 4D plane, then all moments exsist at once.
but if it is more like a simulation, then the moment hasnt happend yet, but we could predict exactly what would happen

[rough sapphire]

do you think you cannot predict anyones decision?

[limpid lynx]

i remember this from a kurzgesagt video

[timid latch]

given a accurate enough information and enough procession power, then yes I think I could predict most decisions .

[rough sapphire]

can you do it without processing power?

[stable fable]

I mean a predictable decision would be if a thirsty man would drink water but a choice can be made on how he achieves it but one possible outcome will always occur he will no longer be thirsty

[rough sapphire]

aren't there times in your life where you know what will happen

cause of experience etc

[limpid lynx]

thats the keyword

[timid latch]

which requires brain processing power to make the correlation, etc

[limpid lynx]

alright guys cya imma take a break

[rough sapphire]

im arguing exactly that

omniscient being can tell what you will do cause it knows more about you than you do

[undone thorn]

byee

[stable fable]

cya~

[stable fable]

I mean like a super computer able to compute either if you will choose heads or tails

[rough sapphire]

my argument is that knowing what will happen doesn't mean it is already "set in stone", doesn't mean you do not chose, it only means your choice can be predicted

[timid latch]

but if it can be predicted perfectly doesnt that mean it is set in stone, because it not being would imply the prediction could be wrong

[rough sapphire]

its an ontological distinction i guess

[undone thorn]

I think the definition of "know" here is loose, if you have perfect philosphical knowledge that an action will occur and it could not possibly be any other way, there is by definition no choice, because choice involves more than one possibility

[rough sapphire]

lets say i have a robot kid and a kid

i make both put their hands over fire

i know both will take their hand away cause it burns

once cause i programmed it

the other cause its feeling pain

[undone thorn]

you don't have perfect philosophical knowledge there

[timid latch]

and pain is "programmed" in the brain to make you pull away

[rough sapphire]

i know this about the robot cause their behavior is set in stone

[timid latch]

and the same can be said about the kid

[rough sapphire]

and i know this about the kid cause i have asymmetric information about him

i know more about him than he knows about himself

[stable fable]

The kid is biologically programmed to remove his hand unless he has some sort of mental condition

[rough sapphire]

lol

[stable fable]

XD

[undone thorn]

I think the difference here is between informational asymmetry and the idea of perfect philosphical knowledge

you "know" in the sense that you can predict the outcome with a high level of certainty

you don't "know" in the sense that there are no other possible outcomes

an omniscient being would have the latter

[rough sapphire]

i do know

i understand the value of your argument

theoretically

but in practical terms, i know

[stable fable]

Yeah I think in essence if choice was truly free there would be more than 1 possible outcome.

[timid latch]

this isnt about whether a human could predict something, it is about if a theoretical entity could with complete information about the state of the universe

[undone thorn]

the argument I'm making is fully theoretical, I don't believe in true philosophical knowledge

[rough sapphire]

nope

[stable fable]

How come?

[undone thorn]

by definition choice needs more than one possible outcome

[rough sapphire]

no

[rough sapphire]

that does not imply there are two outcomes

it means there are two paths

(or more)

[undone thorn]

two possible outcomes

(or more)

[rough sapphire]

no

not outcomes

you could chose between two paths and have both end up at the same place

[undone thorn]

path is just another way to say outcome tho isn't it

[rough sapphire]

nope

[stable fable]

Are saying there's two (or more choices) but only leads to one path?

[timid latch]

sigh, outcomes in the sense of what you pick

[undone thorn]

yeah ^

[rough sapphire]

outcome does not mean what you pick, it means what ends up resulting from your choice

[timid latch]

what I pick is the outcome of my decision making process

[rough sapphire]

no

[timid latch]

yes

[rough sapphire]

no, you have no idea what your choice will lead to

you chose how to address say a problem

[undone thorn]

okay this has gotten too far into semantics and arguing over the meanings of words so I'm out, have fun y'all

[timid latch]

I dont, but that doesnt matter, the outcome of me thinking about it was that I picked X

[rough sapphire]

you do not chose where it ends

[timid latch]

exactly, how I adress it is the outcome of my problem sovling

[rough sapphire]

you chose the input, not the output

regardless though

[timid latch]

the output of my decision making is the input to the problem

[stable fable]

I mean it's fine if you don't know how it ends but it's still a choice you pick.

[rough sapphire]

my initial argument is not that you dont chose

is that your choice is knowable

or predictable

[stable fable]

Yes but argument is that if a choice is truly free there needs to be more than one outcome.

[rough sapphire]

ah i guess thats true

[timid latch]

if we model "problem solving" as a function that takes in a problem and gives out a plan, wouldnt you call that plan the outcome of that function?

[stable fable]

or path*

[thick ore]

socrates ahh conversation

carry on great thinkers

[rough sapphire]

in that sense yeah, i agree

[rough sapphire]

no

[stable fable]

If it's always suppose to go to one route you don't really have a choice.

[rough sapphire]

its not "always supposed to go to one route"

it hasn't happened

[stable fable]

You can predict two possible outcomes happening but if you always predict this one outcome to happen then it's always going to go to that outcome. if you have 100% power to predict.

[rough sapphire]

the fact i can tell what you are going to do does not mean you aren't chosing to do what you are going to do

[timid latch]

again this comes down to how we define "chosing"

[stable fable]

Yes ^

[timid latch]

under a definition I can agree that you are choosing an option, but you were predetermined to chose that option

[stable fable]

It goes back to the discussion earlier that are your choice truly yours to make if they are predetermined that you will make that choice to begin with.

[rough sapphire]

i guess the question might fall more on the definition of predetermination then

if we are looking at a flat timeline, which i guess we are

seems like we cannot get outside that idea

then the question would come on what we think predetermination means

[timid latch]

let put it like this: py x = 0 while True: x += 1 print(x) while this program is running x hitting "1000" hasent happend yet, but we can predict exactly when and how it will

now replace the loop body with a single timestep of the entire universe, and x with the entire state of the universe

[rough sapphire]

thats my point, we are working it like there's already something written and we are just going through it

[stable fable]

Yes, your working through it but it will always land there.

[rough sapphire]

cause you are starting from the idea that there's something written previous to your chosing

i cannot seem to be able to explain the idea of time being present

[stable fable]

But if the 1000 is always meant to happen even though it's not yet written it's like a premediated prophecy. That's the same as having no free will.

[rough sapphire]

"always meant"

thats the problem right there

the idea of a loop

[stable fable]

If the loop will lead to 1000 it will lead to 1000, if you predicted my movement at 100% accuracy, how can you say I have free will for my decisions if that's the only options I have available.

[rough sapphire]

your movements weren't "always meant", you took them as things arised

as others have said here, your choices are a result of who you are previous to the moment of choice

and whatever happens at that moment that might make you go, say, left or right

anything that informs your choice is also present in my mind

at least thats how i look at it

am i going to take the hand out of the fire when it starts burning me?

i will make that decision then based on my own mindset i guess

[stable fable]

Ok do you believe in free will?

[rough sapphire]

no

[stable fable]

Ok so doesn't that mean you believe your choices aren't yours to make?

[rough sapphire]

i don't think i should go into what i think reality is, i would bore you

[stable fable]

Hmm it's fine

[rough sapphire]

take it as that if you want, i would only recommend you read descartes discourse on method if you are having existential crisis issues

[stable fable]

I'm actually into deep topics

I actually pulled up a youtube video on descartes

you mentioned him earlier

[rough sapphire]

its not deep, its just my idea of "divine configuration" or sth

yeah, he starts reasoning from the idea that an evil demon is in control of his life

and slowly reasons outside of that

and methodically

its anti existential paranoia 101 i think

[stable fable]

AH I see

[rough sapphire]

dunno if all his arguments hold

he also then starts going into geometry and god

but i think the first part holds its weight

[stable fable]

I like existential paranoia kurgsagt and Vsauce already gives me those in a daily basis

[rough sapphire]

i think its something that is intellectually alluring, but ends up having a corrosive effect

in how you live

[stable fable]

did you read his book in it's entirety?

[rough sapphire]

i read the first part of the method

i think the entire thing has a few books

[stable fable]

Discourse De la methode

[rough sapphire]

he reasons himself out of doubting everything

might be his reasoning is right or not, but its a good thing to read

if you are coming from pure existential sartre/camus stuff

[stable fable]

I'll just watch a video

Fair enough

[rough sapphire]

i heard kiekergard is also good for that

i mean, i have nothing against reading nihilist or existential stuff

but you gotta always read the other side of the isle too

its easy to fall into philosophical or ideological reasoning traps that end up harming your life

[stable fable]

Yeah I can see what you mean, it's like the bad philosophy of nothing in life matters.

You can take it as good or bad depending on how you think about it.

[rough sapphire]

well its not like thats the point of existentialism or nihilism

you can also end up in something like nietzsche or stoicism that is similarly nonchalant but life affirming too

[rough sapphire]

i think the best way to take it is to read it, think about it, but still keep enjoying life regardless of that

never let a bunch of nicely arranged words make you stop enjoying life

[stable fable]

I'll just read a quick summary

[pure phoenix]

help

its like 2am here

idk y but i cant slep

:(

i kept peeing non stop

[glossy niche]

go go gadget melatonin spray

ive never tried it before, but my friend swears by it, she says she cant sleep without it

[pure phoenix]

r there qwik ways to git slep

i hv a test tmr but my bladder kept bothering me :/

[sterile sapphire]

uh

[uneven pine]

You could try learning to spell in your extra free time.

[limpid lynx]

lol

[rough sapphire]

guys is this epic or what

I swear im using python not c++ it doesnt need two colons

[fervent socket]

.ddg

[median dome]

Duck Duck Duck Goose!

Flights Found

(3, 4, 11) - Spider
(3, 6, 10) - Spider

All the flights were found!

[fervent socket]

3 4 11

3 6 10

[median dome]

Time's up!

Final scores:

Spider: 2

[rare sapphire]

.ddg

[median dome]

Duck Duck Duck Goose!

Flights Found

(0, 6, 9) - Aditea
(1, 8, 9) - Aditea
(6, 7, 10) - Aditea

All the flights were found!

[rare sapphire]

3 7 2

[timid latch]

goose

[rare sapphire]

9 6 0

6 8 1

9 8 1

7 10 6

[alpine tusk]

what is this?

[median dome]

Time's up!

Final scores:

Aditea: 1
vivax (@on reply, they/he/she): -1

[rare sapphire]

A game

Similar to sets

[rare sapphire]

.ddg help

[median dome]

Compete against other players to find valid flights!

Each card has 4 features
Color, Number, Hat, and Accessory

A valid flight
3 cards where each feature is either all the same or all different

Call "GOOSE"
if you think there are no more flights

+1 for each valid flight
+2 for a correct "GOOSE" call
-1 for any wrong answer

The first flight below is invalid: the first card has swords while the other two have no accessory. It would be valid if the first card was empty-handed, or one of the other two had paintbrushes.

The second flight is valid because there are no 2:1 splits; each feature is either all the same or all different.

Tip: using Discord's compact message display mode can help keep the board on the screen

[rare sapphire]

.ddg

[median dome]

Duck Duck Duck Goose!

Flights Found

(6, 9, 10) - Aditea
(2, 4, 7) - vivax (@on reply, they/he/she)
(1, 5, 6) - vivax (@on reply, they/he/she)
(2, 3, 9) - ceweal :3 =type("cereal",(),{})

Flights everyone missed:
(4, 8, 10)
(0, 1, 2)

[rare sapphire]

9 10 6

[timid latch]

2 4 7

[rare sapphire]

11 10 3

5 8 4

[timid latch]

1 5 6

[rare sapphire]

Goose

[small coral]

3 9 2

[median dome]

Time's up!

Final scores:

vivax (@on reply, they/he/she): 2
ceweal :3 =type("cereal",(),{}): 1
Aditea: -2

[rare sapphire]

.ddg

[median dome]

Duck Duck Duck Goose!

Flights Found

(1, 2, 10) - Matiiss
(1, 5, 9) - Aditea
(6, 9, 11) - ceweal :3 =type("cereal",(),{})
(3, 8, 11) - ceweal :3 =type("cereal",(),{})
(3, 4, 6) - ceweal :3 =type("cereal",(),{})

All the flights were found!