#ot1-perplexing-regexing
1 messages ยท Page 7 of 1
send ss of whole command bruh
how
pip uninstall pyinstaller
yes
try it again
what it ry
how would someone write this in code?
@leaden goblet what to do now
double gpu 0_o
absolutely necessary for stable diffusion ๐
ma i swear i need 2 GPUs for school
definitely for homework
"Ma im not even kidding zoom needs 64gb of ram please"
237 GB drive
Then there's me for whom even a 480 GB SSD is less
is there an alternative, in place replacement for cchardetect nowadays?
@carmine bane since i guess this is venturing to OT, what'd you major in
I didn't major in anything
SWE as a high school graduate
Graduated high school 4 months ago
oh right, i forgot bout you

lucky ass
Like every other Asian parent wouldn't have allowed their kid to pursue no college
My parents supported my path
are your parents AOTA?
AOTA meaning?
anything other than asian
No
Both are first gen
Both immigrated from China
They're just very heavily assimilated to the idea of American Dream and everything
ah gotcha
So they're like "ok this little shitter has a plan at least"
ntmu little shitter
My sister going to college next year and has 0 plan 

i had a lot of fun
I just moved to San Jose last month so I have 0 fun
Work 24/7
0 friends 0 bitches
๐ฉ
you mean you dont have coke induced orgies in san jojo
Nah
Mfs gonna run me broke ๐ฉ
My only issue with San Jose really is that so many people are first gen here
Company I work for is like 90% first gen immigrants
And like, the words they say are Greek as it is cuz I never been in such an environment
remote work into san fran
But their accent makes it even worse
get yourself an interpreter
I wish but work require me to be on site like 3 days or something
Which, no one does
But I good boy
People just come on Mondays only
Oh well
Ok including morning traffic that shit is 2 hours
your company doesnt have positions in ny?
But probably won't happen for a couple of years
No, it's startup
100 people total
too broke for cali sorry
thats pretty small
i was like 1 hr from it, used to go to nyc every weekend to party, now im in upstate NY for college

The fuck
Doesn't NYC have
A fuckton of desperate people
Both men and women
Those mfs must've been special
i mean i pretty much lived in medellin for like a year
chilling out for a bit
i feel 4 years should do it
in 4 years you should be in a directoral position and hire me ez pz
I don't think I have the time to do that 
Easy money
hide the nepotism away

you dont have PTO?
It's okay it's for the good of the company
a week in medellin would do you some good
I do. I just don't have time like everyday
theres a lot of asians who go there actually
To do this frequently
you only need a week in medellin, or punta cana, or porto chico
where
Other than becoming a 10x programmer
Is going to a Jacob Collier concert somewhere internationally. Spend 2 weeks there
I am thinking
Of either Germany
Or Seoul
Jacob Collier is an English singer, songwriter, and multi-instrumentalist. His music incorporates a combination of jazz with elements from many other .
Either Europe or East Asia
Not a poverished place like wherever you lived
Where I'll get mugged

you could very easily get done that in asia / europe
South America is ghetto
Yeah I guess
thats what the french say about asia
may i introduce you to this jazz house madman
French is just on copium cuz no one has any sort of foundational respect for them
Hi

I love Jacob Collier
Like
Fhinq Music - How The Future Sounds
I love this guy! FKJ's "Time For A Change" EP was released today on label Roche Musique. Please do go and buy it guys it's a must have!
Buy: https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/time-for-a-change-ep/id666109619
Follow the artist: https://soundcloud.com/fkj-2
Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/FhinqMusi...
Yes
i just discovered him today
im going
Snarky Puppy style
next week
WAIT DEADASS?
WHCIH LOCATION
This one?
yes
Drugs are bad for you
but its also house
I would kiss you but second handed cancer isn't fun
save the company line for company time
im kinda into the edm scene also
Mmmm
yeah like $35? for what seems like a pretty good experience
In front of Raoul Dufy's painting "La Fรฉe Electricitรฉ"
Shot by @LeSofa at the Paris Modern Art Museum
0:00 Vibin' Without (((O)))
5:50 Canggu
10:06 Alice Improvisation
https://www.instagram.com/frenchkiwijuice/
https://twitter.com/Fkjmusic
https://www.facebook.com/frenchkiwijuice
https://soundcloud.com/fkj-2
Addicted to this
I love performances that are this format
So nice
i saw that video and was like aite
say less
imma be there

im probs gonna be the dude bopping around tho
im not gonna sit there so quiet like those ppl
Jacob Collier concerts are fucking hype
Jacob Collier is like music prodigy fucking nerd
All his audience is 100% musicians
So his concerts are literally like JC and thousands of people in his backup choir

All harmonizing with each other perfectly
So hype I go this year next year
Dude I'm finna get a receding hairline cuz of work
He's sexy I'd suck his toes
Twink >
some of the mods watching both gen and this channel for the past be hour
im surprised still not muted
but you like that so /shrug
why are airplane tickets so fucking expensive
from where to where
San Jose to either SK or Germany
rn im trying to see what im gonna do weds in re: class and then going to fkj
Just don't go to class
cuz its a whole other continent
mmmm, i can skip PC & hardware
I need that Networking class
Bruh
Pre Algebra was like the loser math class for freshman in my high school

You on whole nother shit
yeah but high school classes =/= college
Doens't some more advanced CS course require higher math
yeeaa
No one take pre algebra in college tho
That wasting your money

Start with calc in college
i get free college
Oh wtf

I maybe do college in future if company sponsors me
Be 100x programmer
Easy sponsorshiip
i am extremely bored so im trying to jump ships
but then my situation is unique so w.e
but im here for fun so going to stick with it, just gotta switch around
i bring the party to the company culture tfym
plus free college so why not
But like shit was boring so I went to company gym to work out
Ir's 4 ears of your life
That shit is a long time
you would love it here
lots of twinks, furries, catboys / catgirls, maids
list goes on and on
Dude when my class graduates I gonna be the one giving interviews to my class
God that's gonna be so fun
I give interviews and I say
"Yeah I started working here since high school"
"We same age lol"

Make them believe in 30000x prodigy
anyways gonna crash
im straight, sorry to break your heart
I'm straight too
#ot1-perplexing-regexing is so sick
hello can someone help me with JS?
Not if you don't actually ask a question
they did :P
i think people do that mostly beginners because they think it will be rude to directly ask the ques
Probably
Any advices of how i can get hired?, i'd already done some python courses, i do practice, getting around some libraries, but what exactly are the companies looking?
i want to do DS and ML but one thing is what i want and what do they want
A degree
anyone
I'm a computers engineer
look at job requirements. get those requirements
grades?
if you get shit grades then no point
What does computer engineer mean, do you have a degree
I know that the degree system is different, i'm not a native english speaker, so how do i put it on terms you could understand?
The engineering takes up to 5-6 years to obtain, it's necessary if you want to get a doctorate
But i know people with just a bachelors degree that are programmers, i want to start from bottom
So you do have a degree then? At least a bachelors?
you got doctorate?
Nope, i got hired in a company and worked at sales, so i focussed on selling and only programmed by hobby
Yeah, and after that i studied engineering
Ok so what you need is to look at software dev jobs, build a project or two with some of those requirements and start applying to things
You work as a dev?
Yes
What do you do?
Full stack web dev
So javascript, css, html, react, node
oh nice, some time ago i made a couple of projects with js, css/html, and sql, used php for back end tough
in order, i coded in pascal, c, c++, java, c#, assembly(for university things), javascript, php, html/css(not actual coding but well), vbasic, and right know im 100% on python.
i need guidance on where to focus my time, what is your recommendation to get hired soon as a jr.?
That depends on your local job market hence this suggestion
Just me or no one can remember what they do in free time ?
write code?
How was the movie guys?
oo
Where can I watch #ot1-perplexing-regexing
Streaming now on Disney plus
Damn, I don't have it ๐
https://thiswebsiteisnotsus.carrd.co
something I found
definitely not me creating this using a Temp-Email
very high effort website, 11/10 /g /srs
Definitely not a rickroll, just a normal website
I have a problem to solve and i need a solution... Given an array of 2 dimensional rectangles of different sizes, how would i fit as many of them in as least (identical) areas as possible? I have a list of such rectangles and i need to cut them out from 115x75cm boards.
where's my common app but for job apps. i've filled out the same workday form like 100 times by now
is yes
also, i almost submitted an anonymized version of my resume to a job app
@fossil spruce
who here is familiar with 3d printing
@rough sapphire i did because i unironically just completely blanked on when i'd have last seen you - then i got less surprised when it was april 2021
and also that was when i was pretty inactive on there
You became pretty active
oh so someone's been lurking then
I'm not there anymore
Sure
nvm i got nhelop ty
Guys i need help in an exercise
is there any way somone can help?
its an exercise
@analog shale re dogs and booze:
not a good idea, no:
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/people-foods-avoid-feeding-your-pets
well that's a useful summary for once
fun fact: in the wild, fruits that drop from trees can sometimes naturally ferment, leading the wildlife getting drunk off fermented fruit from the ground
Is it bad I misread "raisin" as racism
https://news.berkeley.edu/2014/07/01/drunken-monkeys-and-our-thirst-for-booze/
Replace baby with monke
finland and germany irl
Nah, alc is ok if u ar 16 (just low percentage, beer, wine, etc) in germany
yes
Godot is a popular open source engine for building 2D and 3D games. It is similar to Unity in many ways, but is lightweight (35Mb) and provides it's own custom scripting language called GDScript.
#gamedev #programming #100SecondsOfCode
๐ฌ Chat with Me on Discord
๐ Resources
Godot Game Engine https://godotengine.o...
Second time someone posted that on PyDis
Weird, Whatsapp is down
Yeah
because what we were talking about isnt python related
igcses are exams you take so you can take more exams which then let you get into collage
ooooh
a lot
if I dont pass these exams, then I wont be able to pass the exams I need to get into collage
Also, why tf was whatsapp down
no idea
That'd suck a lot
so that is why I am doing these
k
I want to go into college
same
how old are you, if you feel comfortable telling
16
ok
May seem liek it isn't my actual age bcuz most ppl say 16 when they are in truth like 12
ut ngl I haven't seen anyone under 13 on this Discord
because they dont wanna get banned
Still
maybe they just havent admitted it
True
this discord?
yea
there is more than one discord?
Like usually you have a ton of smol kids acting like 13
I started around 4 months ago with Python
Am still looking for a cool Coding Language
I started learning python before I had a computer to code on
I already tried C++ for Unity, JavaScript, but then thought Python is the coolest
and here i am
coding stupid things that break my Laptop
respecc+
try ```py
while True:
pass
ctrl+c
its a stupid thing which will break your laptop
hmmmmmmmmm I can guess what this makes
have you tried malloc in a while true loop btw?
When you never have a wait function
what is malloc()?
No, but I aint gonna do that
it allocates part of your ram for variables to use
in lower level languages
How about making a game in when you fail your Laptop Shuts down
bonus points for a bsod
Imagine a game that locks your Computer and you have to play to get the Computer Data back
Anybody here ever read "Erebos 2"?
Ima write that on my todo
did it
never heard of it

tetris os intensifies. An os someone came up with, where in order to save any data or to start your computer, you must beat 100 levels of tetris. Otherwise the computer is wiped
but then again i havent read harry potter either
YOU WHAT!!!!!!!!
I made the mistake of watching it
I love it
And so welp...
am i missing out on something here?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think if u have read it it isn't the same watching it
Wait HOW did we get to Parry Hotter
who is parry hotter than?
Originally we were by College
Hotter than perry
oh same
yea basically
gifs
forgot the name
not vids
we gonna get banned for level farming
'gifs'
Hooooooooold up mate
?
I'll be offline
accept friend req
Making a python t shirt
Nicee
yeah
Final design
looks totally awesome
My favorite commit of the day, right at the end:
How to get ratelimited from github 
am I the only one that chats in either ot1 or ot2 because ot0 has too much activity
Chat history suggests you are not.
๐ฅถ
Hey @vale raven - Guess how many repos I just scanned in the enterprise? :3c
7458
Pretty good guess! 13_866 across 944 orgs. 
944 ๐ฒ
What did you conclude?
That 3_115 of them need no action. 1_427 of them are archived. 426 of them need the master branch deleted. 8_898 of them need the default branch updated to main.
We have some work to do. 
You're just going to delete the default branch??
Or did you already go master->main, and now you're just cleaning up and deleting the old master?
The 426 have a different default branch than master but still retain the old default.
Yeah
Oh, I also concluded that I didn't actually add the repo name to the report so..... oops.
Another couple hours of being ratelimited for you!
That's the fun part!
I actually get to write an XML parser
When UPS gives us our invoices, we can also request a copy as a CSV or an XML file.
But the CSVs have 250 columns and no options for column headers, so, good luck guessing what any of those are
So, XML it is
Yay, xml!
There we go. Now you too, yes you right there, can ratelimit yourself.
https://github.com/Preocts/python_play_carton/blob/main/github_branch_search/branch_search.py
Thank you!
Anyway, need a tagline for these bad bois
And where to put it
1
.bm

Guess which one is our sneaker bot video:
lmao
ngl, he had me until the end
LMFAO
A third of our traffic comes from external sources. A whopping 2/3 of that 1/3 is people just googling how to make a sneaker bot
this video just keeps on giving apparently
Beautiful
LOL
Get sneakerolled
in html (or with JS), how would I make a form that would send a POST request like this, but using form for passing the data py data = {"target_url": "https://google.com"} requests.post("http://127.0.0.1:5001/create/urls", json=data) , endpoint is expecting this kind of type, ```py
class URLBase(BaseModel): # pydantic BaseModel
target_url: str
You can use hidden inputs to send whatever key value pairs you want
The name attr is key and the value attr is value
I had, this but it resulted into "invalid dict" (or something along that) ```html
<form action="/create/urls" method="post">
<label for="url">Target url:</label><br>
<input type="text" id="url" name="target_url"><br>
<input type="submit" value="Submit">
</form>
resulted into: {"detail":[{"loc":["body"],"msg":"value is not a valid dict","type":"type_error.dict"}]}
I tried defining a (default?) value to the line where I define name, but it still gives the same outcome
Oh you want a default value?
no, I just tried that since the one I had before didn't work
I'm trying to use whatever value is being passed to form
@grave cove do you by any chance happen to know what am I doing wrong?
i don't think HTML form tags have an ability to send default values
they only send what's in the input
that's what I'm trying to do
value="test" should set a default value
I tried with that, but it also resulted to same error
Can i see the HTML code?
.
it doesn't have a value attribute
<form action="/create/urls" method="post">
<label for="url">Target url:</label><br>
<input type="text" id="url" name="target_url" value="foo"><br>
<input type="submit" value="Submit">
</form>
even if it has it, it results to error
if you happen to know what I might be doing wrong, it would be great if you let me know. Thx in advance
When you first load the page, does it have foo in the input?
Yes, in the form field
and if you submit, does that go through?
Nope, results to error
This one
Let me fire up things up
same status, 422, as I see in the terminal
what does the request body say?
where's that?
this?
yeah
looks like it's going through
it's on FastAPI side probably
i'm guessing the form is sending it in a format you don't expect
let me modify the endpoint
it's expecting this kind of type
i believe fastapi expects that to be in the JSON body
maybe the form isn't doing it like that
I can't even debug what values are there, since the code in endpoint is not ran
fair point
maybe get a flask server for testing?
hmm, I can access "request" method with middleware
to find out what the req type is
it's doing POST, but I can't figure out where the form data is being send
it is request.{x} but I don't know the x
like what?
Well, gotta go, thx for your time!
Check headers. If content is not set to json, fastapi will complain.
Apparently you can't set this header as json in html itself, you need some js to parse it and change headers between clicking the button and actually sending to the server
I don't recall seeing the value "foo" being in headers while I was debugging
I have to work with this tomorrow since now it's a movie time ๐ฟ
No, no, content is sent via body. I mean content-type header has to be set to application/json, which apparently isn't what plain html can do
Ah I see... then I might have to give Js a try. I still got one "trick" that I will try tomorrow, Jinja2 forms, they might be more python friendly in my case. But that's a task for tomorrow, thx for your time! (And yep, content-type was application/json)
hm, interesting. if it was application/json, then it should be actually alright...
must've been old resources when I tried googling
there are many possibilities at my end that might be causing it, not too familiar with implementing any html to my code
I'd try removing the model (making another endpoint without model linked and use it for the form) and just printing the request content you receive to see what is actually the problem?
I removed the model requirement, and it looks like this atm ```py
@router.post("/create/urls")
async def create_url(request: Request, url: str, db: Session = Depends(get_db)):
it got a print statement just under function definition, and it doesn't even run. hit's 422
did you re-run your project? that doesn't sound right, it shouldn't complain about the model if there's no model
yep, the request.body() is returning this b'target_url=foo', found it after checking Request docs
the bytes, might be the problem
ye, that's not even json. it's urlencoded probably or sth like that which is default for html, according to my earlier research
json would have {}s and quotes
bytes only means that you don't know the encoding to read it, it isn't really a problem. the lack of json structure is
we can access these so far```
b'target_url=foo'
FormData([('target_url', 'foo')])
still hitting 422, makes sense, but {"detail":[{"loc":["query","url"],"msg":"field required","type":"value_error.missing"}]} kinda better
But now I need sleep, it's 11pm, thx a lot for making me think better!
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/60127234/how-to-use-a-pydantic-model-with-form-data-in-fastapi found this. quick search only, but might help looking into this direction
Perfect, thank you! Now I know from where to continue from tomorrow
here @rigid prawn
There is a hiring bias against men in STEM, meaning that qualified men are less likely to be hired than are women of the same skill level. There is also a bias against men and boys all throughout the education process, starting from childhood and into college. These are facts, there's nothing to discuss and I don't have much an interest in doing so at the moment
There's a point on which we disagree - that there is a bias against hiring women in a lot of tech - I'm attempting to find some common ground to see if we can see why we disagree on a fairly important point. Surely we can agree that there is some bias against women in some specific educational field at some point in education?
I agree that there are biases working against men and boys all through education - I think the same is true for girls
When you can only acknowledge one side of the struggle, and you refuse to even entertain the idea there might be some biases against women, you end up just seeming sexist.
I know I'm butting into a conversation that doesn't involve me, but I personally have not experienced any bias against women in education during my education in the UK. I did experience numerous biases against men, for instance 'women in engineering' events, women in construction events, women in STEM events, women in leadership events... I didn't once notice a men in x event... I can't comment on USA etc, but I imagine it'd be similar. NZ is similar for sure. That being said, there are billions of women around the world, such as those in the middle east, that do experience bias against them... but I don't believe in most of the first world countries, especially those with english as the primary language, women are biased against during education or employment in STEM fields
they're constantly encouraged and almost pushed towards STEM. Men are just left to do as they please
A very easy example which shows a bias pushing women in one direction in the UK is Katherine Birbalsingh saying "girls just don't like hard maths" which is not backed up by any research
that was said to a select committee iirc
Guys idk if this CompTIA Traineeship is a scam or not
Interesting. Probably a comment that shouldn't have been made, but I don't believe that to be influential enough to be classified as bias against women... it's not saying women can't do maths, it's saying girls just don't like hard maths... the same could be said for many boys
most people in school hated maths, I personally loved it and it was my best subject
but most of my friends, male and female, didn't enjoy math
the bias lies in the fact that that interest has nothing inherently to do with gender
and yet gender was brought into it
which is far too common
Katherine Birbalsingh is the head teacher of probably the most high profile state funded school in the country. She's impacting education policy via the select committee, and the fact that this is a prevailing belief is the bias.
A stat backing this up is the fact that girls from all girls schools are ~twice as likely to do A-Level physics than if they went to a mixed school
I have multiple CompTIA certifications but have never heard of "Traineeship"
in the US, it is the case that many top universities will accept a proportionally larger amount of girls in order to achieve a 50-50 split in the admitted students. thus the admission process is biased against boys
there does exist a similar bias against men, especially in fields like primary education, which only serves to hurt everyone involved, and it is under-talked about and under addressed in comparison
But look at it from this perspective... say you were a male hairdresser, incredibly talented and enjoyed what you do. Then say a celebrity hairdresser came out and said 'boys just don't like hairdressing' would you let that stop you from following your aspirations?
sure, she's in an elevated position. Sure, she's making moronic comments. but she's not preventing girls from getting that education if that's where their interest lies
no. but if someone said that before you got into hairdressing, you'd likely never even consider it.
Would it be a conscious choice? No, but the prevailing belief by my teachers and peers that hairdressing isn't for guys would almost certainly have a large impact on my choices
You should probably just buy one of the study books and work with that, unless you're getting paid for being a trainee or something
This company: https://itcareerswitch.co.uk/traineeships/ are offering me a traineeship for ยฃ1000, basically they provide the course content and exam for me for CompTIA+ and if i pass the exam they guarantee me a job in cyber or my money back basically
But i don't know if i should trust the company as i've never heard of them, but it looks pretty legit and promising
And apparently they are a "CompTIA partner"
it kind of sounds scammy to me, you can buy a study book for like 30 dollars and just start applying to jobs after you complete the test
I don't know. I feel like waiting is a female dominated profession, and is often represented as such in tv shows, movies, etc... that had no effect on me, I still became a waiter for my first job
Look for graduates on LinkedIn and ask them if it was worth it.
Yeah I suppose you are right
True
I don't understand why a 1 year college course for ยฃ5k or a traineeship for ยฃ1k would be better than a ยฃ30 pound hard cover book
you follow what you're interested in, regardless of what opinions are out there. People there'll always be someone who has an opinion that boys shouldn't do x or girls shouldn't do x or this or that... I think the divide between genders in certain professions comes down solely to interests and work ethics
Well i lost my job so i'm wanting to learn cyber as quickly as i can and it may mean i get some work on the side while studying
if you're a female in the usa, is there any legislation preventing you becoming the best developer in the world?
I'm in a pretty shit place in life rn
These are deeply ingrained relatively weak effects that end up having an outsized impact on outcomes which end up negatively affecting everyone involved. The idea that women are more empathetic therefore make better psychologists, or that men are just better at logic therefore make better software engineers ends up just hurting everyone.
This isn't to deny the effect of biological differences, but there's very strong evidence that most of these disparities are in no-small-part cultural
i don't think that's really comparable. being a waiter requires basically no training, essentially no barrier to entry compared to say software dev which takes years of training
I've been recommended the coursera courses for fast progression, followed by some of your own sample projects to build a portfolio
I do agree that cuture has a significant impact, we do have some common ground there.
but the point is, if a female is interested in progressing in the field, there are no physical barriers through the educational nor professional processes
If you constantly hear that girls shouldn't do math while growing up from friends, family, educators, or whoever you look up to and listen as a kid, it's going to have an impact on what you choose to do in the future unless you're extremely headstrong
So here's my story...
A personal anecdote. When I was choosing my A-levels, a teacher pulled me aside and said "don't do IT, you should do Computer Science instead." If even a small amount of teachers fail to say "Maybe you should try CS instead of textiles", then that's already an intervention at an early stage which is filtering through to have quite a big impact
There are scams everywhere. For instance, I changed a water pump on my car for about 2 hours and 60 dollars, the mechanic wanted 450 dollars and to have me leave the car overnight.
Of course not. But among the small handful of women I know who studied engineering, all of them described incidents of overt hostility from some of their male classmates, teachers, etc .
There's plenty of stories of sexism in Silicon Valley
I'm really stuck. I can't afford to go back to college
so - that's a pretty real effect making it harder for women to become the best developers in the world
i think it's a question of whether culture or legislation is important, at this point. i, and it seems charlie, guitar, and dowcet, argue the former, while you're arguing the latter.
because culture's impact isn't negligible, it can very much impact one's decisions in the areas they desire to explore and the experiences they have if they do.
another thing is that there are people out there who believe women are purely advantaged in looking for tech jobs - and are going to consciously devalue them because of that
as another personal anecdote, many of the people i know explicitly did not continue taking CS at my school because they knew a specific sexist teacher was going to be teaching the class. it's not necessarily about actual barriers
I have a close friend in EU who was always told to not do CS/IT cause that's not for girls. Ended up with her not going into a STEM degree cause she was constantly told it's not for woman. She finally transitioned into tech recently through a bootcamp and loves it. Wishes it wasn't ingrained into her as a child that CS/math isn't for woman.
As a 16 year old school leaver, I wanted to go into software engineering. I spoke to my parents about it. They advised me I was too old, it was too late, I would've had to start when I was a teenager, blah blah blah. As a result, I fell into civil engineering and spent the last decade miserable working a job I don't enjoy. Which is evidence of a cultural impact.
That being said, I wouldn't say that was a bias against me, I would say that was a mistake for me listening to advice from others regarding something I had a passion for.
In my opinion the best bet would be to get the book, or study online for free, pay for the test and see if you can find a job. But to be honest, I don't know what the best choice would be for you
I can sit the exam in the UK right?
not at all, I fully agree and understand the cultural impacts. Look at China/Japan's cultural work ethics compared to ours, they blow us out the water. Culture has a HUGE impact, I agree with you entirely. But what I'm arguing is that whilst culture does have an impact, it does not prevent people following their passions. Anyone who has enough self belief and passion for what they do, will be successful. Those who listen to naysayers, will not. As I was not.
I think it's like $300
biases are systemic and widespread, this just sounds like your parents giving bad advice. It would be a bias if this were a widespread issue, or a widespread issue only amongst XYZ group
Would it be easy getting a job with just CompTIA A+ with no experience?
but the point is, it wasn't preventing me getting into the field I enjoy. Me listening to others' opinions is what prevented me following my dreams. That's not a bias, that's cultural influence
a cultural influence is a bias. A bias doesn't have to be a hard barrier
Anyone who has enough self belief and passion for what they do, will be successful.
and therein lies the issue. you likely won't have a chance to do such a thing if you're constantly told that isn't for you.
it does not prevent people following their passions.
it makes it a lot harder. and it takes a lot of effort to break such barriers.
now if we were arguing about the middle east where women are prevented from getting education, then I'd agree there's a strong bias against women
but someone saying 'girls shouldn't do x', 'boys shouldn't do x'
I did my A+ and got into desktop support with no tech experience at $14/h like 5-6 years ago. The employer paid for my Net+ and Sec+.
There's a massive difference between your parents giving once off bad advice vs multiple people you look up to that help you guide your education telling you that you don't belong in a role because of your gender
my entire life I was told boys don't wear pink, like pink, etc
pink is my favourite colour
cultural influence only works when willingly adhered to
it is the choice of the person whether they let cultural influence affect them or not
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding or disagreement over language. Biases are not necessarily insurmountable, they're not hard barriers.
And that's why the number of female engineers isn't actually zero
if a woman does not want to go into STEM because of cultural influence, or any other reason, why should we firmly encourage it solely on the basis that more men historically entered STEM fields?
I was encouraged into a STEM field that didn't align with my passions and now I've wasted a decade in a job I don't enjoy
and am having to retrain working 60-80 hours a week to switch professions at 27
A) the story guitar told b) the inherent value that employers find in a more diverse workforce
May I ask was the company well known?
whether it's a problem is a different question all together. I think it's a problem that companies should be addressing because it probably leads to worse software being built, and to worse workplaces. I would much rather work somewhere with a relatively diverse workforce - where I currently work is massively dominated by people from a relatively specific background, and I find it pretty damn uncomfortable
may i ask as to why you believe b is relevant?
why does it matter whether it is a male, female or even a toaster sat in the chair doing the work
It was a large MSP but that's very standard practice (at least here in the US
the only thing that matters is the work, right? the product, the output, the efficiency, the productivity?
are you doubting whether employers value diversity, or are you asking why employers value diversity?
i think we're talking past each other, at this point. you're arguing that someone can get past a barrier if they know it, i'm stating that you often never have the chance to develop interests with such biases.
I just searched cyber jobs near me and like, wtf is all of these extra requirements
neither. I'm asking why anything other than how good a person is at their job matters
why does it matter if male, female, cat, monkey
Like, I don't know any of that...
Anecdotally, it seems clear to me that diverse teams are more productive. They also produce better software because they're inherently including a broader potential userbase in their designs
all employers should care about is the work ethic and ability of the person
"โข Experience of working with SIEM Tooling", how am i meant to have this
there's very specific examples of this latter thing going horribly wrong
No, they should also care about how they fit into the existing team culture and structure
but they don't. that's what a bias is. (ignoring the fact that this isn't all that an employer should care about)
introduce one asshole into a good team, and you destroy morale
diversity of background leads to diversity of approaches to a problem, and diversity of opinions. It prevents teams becoming echo chambers, and increases the chances of teams delivering quality products.
have you worked before?
There is almost no such thing as an "entry level cybersecurity job". Either you invest heavily in your skills upfront or you start in desktop support /help desk where a cert or two is enough
have you worked before?
clearly yes, they were speaking about retraining above.
which I'd argue comes under experience, ability and work ethic, not gender?
I have
then it's so hard to get into
it comes from all sorts of things. Different educational backgrounds, experience backgrounds, different levels of innate ability, different genders, religions, skin colors, and ethnicities are all helpful.
when you say invest heavy, how long is that meant to take?
Yes, that's why it pays well
Got a friend who got entry cyber security after his BSc + a few cyber security certifications that he did on top of his degree in his own time
gender is one major source of diversity on teams, but there's no sort of diversity that isn't helpful. Given two candidates with comparable skills, the employer does best by choosing to hire the one that's most different from the existing members of the team, in terms of approach and world view and background.
Impossible to say, but if you're determined to skip the help desk I would plan on months to years
๐คฏ i don't have all that
degree? pffff
It feels like on one hand we're arguing females and males should be given the exact same educational opportunities and paths, and on the other hand you're arguing that different educational backgrounds are beneficial?
But help me understand... could you give me an example of how different genders, religions or skin colours result in a better product output in STEM careers?
I agree, we should have max diversification. We should have equal representation from every gender, religion, ethnicity in every role. But that's not how people's interests and abilities align
you don't end up making racist webcams http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/12/22/hp.webcams/index.html
Can Hewlett-Packard's motion-tracking webcams see black people? It's a question posed on a now-viral YouTube video and the company says it's looking into it.
there are tons of examples of PR nightmares caused by a team of 20-something white males releasing something that's deeply offensive to another group.
Interesting example, and it does have a good basis for your argument... but it was also produced by HP... are you implying HP doesn't employ people with black skin? I'm sure they have black developers, probably some that even worked on that project. I'd argue a bug in a product doesn't constitute racism? they didn't develop that product with the intention of discriminating against black people, making it not work for black people, it's simply a bug?
HP definitely have black developers. But there's a very good chance none of them interacted with this motion tracking software before it was released
if they had, they probably would have got out ahead of the newsstory
also, the article seems to suggest the issue was because they were using color detection and contrast to identify facial positioning and the bug occurred due to the poor lighting in the room
I'd argue a bug in a product doesn't constitute racism?
No one is saying that it does.
That's literally the entire argument
or they tested in well lit environments, such as an office, where good fore lighting is almost always prevelant due to the legislation around office lighting requirements
no, the argument isn't that bugs are caused by racism, it's that diversity is an easy way to avoid certain classes of mistake (bugs, PR gaffes, shortsighted choices, etc)
The argument is that it's a racist webcam - it dictionary definition is - and that it probably would have been prevented if it had been built by a more diverse team
Having a larger hiring pool is better, and encouraging more women into STEM just about doubles that pool. And while you can't really remove sexist talent from STEM, you can provide advantages which help compensate for the sexism and make it less crippling to someone's interest in the field. A massive portion of programming is about talking with peers, and if your peers consider you inferior, you simply cannot be more effective than them.
imagine that their team had been diverse, and there were extremely dark skinned people involved in the early tests of the camera. They'd have still had the same bug, almost certainly, but they would have caught it sooner, and chosen to keep iterating rather than release something that failed for a large number of people who bought it.
Not necessarily, and do you have a laundry list of all the skin colors that worked on that camera? Because if not, then you're making assumptions
so why do we not have ethnic groups encouraged into STEM the way females are? it seems there's greater issues in ethnic diversity than gender diversity in most professions? or would it be because segregating them for 'positive' reasons would only further the divide and fuel the fire?
we do, there are plenty of programs for underrepresented groups
I personally hate free courses
because we're closer to racial equity than we are to gender equity, mostly.
They likely didn't test the product in poorly lit environments, because that's not typically where a webcam would be used?
I'm going to study like fuck for this certificate
you wouldn't answer my question earlier, I have no real urge to engage with you now
I don't think you're entering the conversation in good faith
I'd disagree on that one personally
Any book or course recommendations for CompTIA A+ or Network+?
that's a very common environment for using a webcam - people absolutely have late night calls in poorly lit rooms, for reasons.
So the answer is no, and you are making assumptions
a poorly lit environment doesn't change someone's skin color lol
I'm from a country where theres historic bias against both woman and non white people. There are programs for both encouraging both into STEM degrees
Any book or course recommendations for CompTIA A+ or Network+?
but it would affect the ability for color detection software to identify and track contrasts?
haha touche
Preferably that don't cost too much ๐
I've heard good things about this guy: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG49S3nxzAnlGHY8ObL8DiyP3AIu9vd3K
I can't imagine the team at HP being like 'ah no, we can't jack off on the internet with our webcams' though
Actually I believe this is the latest one: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG49S3nxzAnnOmvg5UGVenB_qQgsh01uC
I expect that was simply an oversight, but maybe I'm wrong
Cheers for that, time to study hard
Here's another example, voice recognition is substantially better for men than women https://hbr.org/2019/05/voice-recognition-still-has-significant-race-and-gender-biases
well, you can disagree all you'd like. I can tell you that of the engineers I've worked with in my life, the number of female engineers has been far, far less than half. I'm in the US, and if I had to guesstimate racial groups, I'd guess that blacks and latinos are underrepresented and asians are overrepresented, but pretty much every team I've ever worked on has members from different countries, and I've worked on many teams without any women.
I must have missed it, did we come to a conclusion on suggesting reputable bootcamps to women in place of degrees
Women get it hard, man
The number of female engineers has been far, far less than half because far, far less than half of women choose to go into Computer Science. Notice the conspicuous lack of conversation on how women outnumber men in nearly every other field, and higher university in general
... yes?
USA statistics on software engineering by race
obviously the reason that there are fewer female engineers is that fewer females chose to become engineers
Tyler will only acknowledge the problem in one direction
black or african american 4.9%, women make up like 33% according to the graphic someone posted earlier
You're focusing on problems that don't matter, like "racist cameras"
so, again, I disagree
so yeah, that matches my guess - whites, latinos, and blacks are underrepresented, asians are overrepresented.
yeah, tbf, that was the entirety of the argument I've made
This isnt focussing on a problem. Ugh asked for an example, and one was provided
which contradicts your statement that there was a greater gender bias than ethnical bias
Yes, I'm saying these people just can't admit that they aren't actually victims
Pointless conversation in my opinion
Stack Overflow Dev Survey puts it at <10% women - but that's global, not US only
damn, I'm really sorry people forced you to participate in it.
yeah, the 'racist camera' was a good example and definitely made me think about things that I perhaps overlooked. I disagree that it's racist though, but it was a good example of how diversity does impact the output
I suppose more so in software engineering than other STEM fields such as construction, where the vast of my experience is
our outputs are not affected by gender or racial diversity
It's not going to change anything
women make up like 33% according to the graphic someone posted earlier
I didn't see that graphic, but that seems much too high to me. I'd expect it to be closer to 10% of software engineers, maybe 20% at most.
but it definitely seems more important in software related fields
who says they're not?
yes. but there is absolutely nothing to indicate that women are inherently less interested in entering computer science. and it's very clearly societal biases that cause that to happen. compsci is general considered a "male profession," and so less females actually explore that field.
We need more women in IT
Look at all the examples they brought up, about how some politician made a remark about women and math, or a teacher said maybe don't try computer science. The opposite for men is something like wanting to be a pre-school teacher, and immediately having someone accuse you of being a pedophile. Sure, there are different biases, but they are not at all comparable, and it's frankly annoying to hear
For morale
no one is arguing that those biases against male individuals don't exist
I very very clearly acknowledged that was a problem.
several times
There's a lot to indicate that women just aren't interested in the fields, mainly that they don't choose them. You can say it's cultural but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is.
this is a problem that cuts both ways and hurts everybody
it's you who's only willing to acknowledge one direction
in fact, biases against males are also bad
Women not going for a job because society deems the job as manly. That is bad
Should be able to do what they want
Tyler - you refused to meet on the common ground that "there are biases against women in some fields at some levels of education"
a lot of people's interests (women and men) are not as a result of cultural impact. Studies have been undertaken where children were given toys, prior to being impacting by any cultural influence, way too young to understand cultural influences, and the boys went for a big construction truck the majority of the time, the girls went for a doll the majority of the time
Yeah, that doesn't matter. Women have outnumbered men in graduate colleges for about half a century now. If they were going to study computer science as a group they would have done it already
that's not to say some girls didn't go for the truck and some boys didn't go for the doll
it doesn't matter, so speaketh the keyboard warrior
There's a lot to indicate that women just aren't interested in the fields, mainly that they don't choose them.
Not choosing them doesn't mean they're not interested.
Boy, there goes all your false pretenses about "meeting on common ground"
Unless your peers are willing to treat you as a peer, you cannot be an effective programmer/computer scientist, and well, a significant number of programmers will not treat women as peers.
there were no false pretences - I wanted to have a conversation, you refused, I've written you off as a shithead
but the majority had their interests and followed them, as is true throughout education and profession. It could be cultural, it could be biological bias
You can continue being wrong if you want to
as an anecdote, many of the people i knew wanted to continue taking CS classes, but decided not to because of a specific sexist teacher
do you feel this could be exacerbated by the segregation caused as a result of these types of discussions?
Think about it this way. A bias against men was mentioned in the careers section. What did you do? You immediately had to make the problem about biases against women. Why?
!mute 152515077512232960 "I've written you off as a shithead" is insufficiently civil for our server, and I'm sure you know that by now.
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i.e. as Morgan Freeman once said, the way to end racism, is to stop talking about it. Stop seeing me as black, and I'll stop seeing you as white. We both refer to eachother by our names, and think of eachother as human.
To an extent, but it's better to bring these problems to light than to hope that they magically go away on their own with no effort.
This isnt a bias against men, its womens' organisations doing something actively for women, mens orgs can do the same cant they?
that's fine, just an excuse to try the native Timeout feature...
Talking about the gender/ethnic divide and providing easier routes for females/ethnic minorities to enter certain professions could have the adverse affect of their peers seeing them as not having had to work as hard to get there, not being up to the same standard because they've been gifted their path, etc
Just about every meaningful social change was brought about by activists, not by randomly going away at some point
by constantly identifying the diversity issues, we're constantly reaffirming that people from those backgrounds aren't typically going into these fields and, therefore, the cultural influence continues
No, they cannot. For instance, the only male domestic violence shelter in Canada was shut down by feminist protests. Look at what happened on this server. A bias against men was mentioned. Someone immediately required virtue signaling that the opposite happens. When it wasn't give, they got combative
Imagine that, but permeating all of society
interesting. Oprah said that the way to end racism is for all of the racists to die.
If we simply let people follow their passion and didn't talk about the issues, it wouldn't be an issue. Everyone would be doing what they wanted to do
which i also agree with to be fair, but unfortunately, they reproduce faster than they die
Yup, that does indeed happen. But well, there isn't really a better way. You can't get rid of sexism in a field without having the people discriminated against actually in the field.
Biases don't leave on their own, you have to fight them. And sadly, there isn't an effective way to do so.
I'm sure there are fewer male fashion designers because "boys don't play with dolls". There are fewer male educators and fewer male nurses because raising children or caring for people are "women's jobs".
but no matter how much we try and force women into STEM fields, they'll always be the minority in those fields because the biological evidence suggests there is a difference in interests that occur as a result of biological differences. Would the better solution to not keep pointing out how few women there are, let those who enjoy the fields enter those fields and then be treated as an equal because they've progressed through the same routes, been given the same opportunities, etc?
biological evidence suggests there is a difference in interests that occur as a result of biological differences
Citation? I've never heard any credible research that suggests that women are biologically disinclined to develop software.
and should we then be forcing men who don't enjoy those fields into those fields because they've been 'culturally influenced' to not enjoy those fields?
I mean, if we look back in history, every kind of activism has had opposition, Stonewall riots, suffragette movement, etc
You can handle it just like everyone else did
"forcing"? No, definitely not. "Encouraging"? Setting up recruiting pipelines that give them easier access to those fields? Absolutely!
Why should they be given an easier path because they were born with a dick? you want a nurse that got there easier because he's male or a nurse that can keep you alive?
it's a huge problem that boys tend to grow up with few male role models outside of the home. There are huge societal benefits to encouraging more men to teach in grade schools.
Again, no, the programmers are already sexist, and it is not possible to be effective at CS without being respected by your peers. If that's not the case, you will always underperform.
my point is: routes should be standardised and should not take into account anything other than ability.
This is the same argument as to why we should just accept that there are more qualified male programmers than female programmers
I understand your point, but it doesn't agree with the data.
If your classmates assign you the boring busywork part of the project every time because they don't believe you can do the complex parts, they are depriving you of knowledge making you worse off than your peers.
CS cannot be done alone in isolation, it's a very social field.
agreed. but if you have the work ethic and ability and prove yourself as a valuable contributor of the project, you'll be given more responsibility
the girls in our classes were often prioritised in group projects
the abstract doesn't seem to suggest any biological basis for that difference - it seems social to me
random ramblings: i wonder if this is so much about biology as it is the way children are raised and the way they see the world growing up, even at very young ages.
oh wait, that's just the nature vs. nurture debate, isn't it.
That's still harder than your male peers who are assumed vaguely competent by default
there are more boy doctors on TV, and more girl nurses, so girls are more likely to say they want to grow up to be a nurse and less likely to say they want to grow up to be a doctor. There's nothing biological about that, it's entirely social.
I'd wager it's 80% genetic, everything
do you have evidence for that? i'm genuinely curious, not trying to be combative.
So, in an unbiased system, women will have it harder in CS since they will be assumed incompetent until proven otherwise
Roughly, it's getting a lot better in recent years
Which could occur as a result of the constant identification of a divide
constant reaffirmation that less females are in these fields
which subconsciously can manifest as females generally have less ability to do the work
Why do you think so? Sexism in CS predates these programs
and do you believe that was as a result of nature or nurture?
These problems being brought up in fact trends with less sexism in CS
we're not at a point where we can just drop all this support specifically for women and expect it to naturally fix itself, though
were the majority of the founders of the industry male or female?
i mean, as it exists right now, you don't need to be told there are unequal amounts of each gender. in my CS classes, there is approximately 1 girl for every 10 guys. it's incredibly obvious such a divide exists
In those times, it was about even actually
'there is approximately 1 girl for every guy'
seems balanced to me
During WW2, it was female dominated
sorry, edited
it was? do you have any sources I could review?
hell, this exists in my high school compsci class, which has a very low barrier to entry. it's closer to 1 to 5, but still.
It seems to me when we think about all the early founders and innovators, the vast majority were male. Which would suggest a male dominated profession even in it's infancy, but if you have a source that it was far more even, I'd be interested to read it
it may even change my outlook, as it'd suggest that the divide is as a result more of cultural influence than natural interests and instincts
the introductory classes in my high school were fairly even. when you got to AP CSA or the other higher level classes, a difference became more obvious. this does seem to imply girls simply didn't like CS, but it could also be they didn't like the teacher, how it was taught, or whatever
we don't really have an introductory CS classe, so i dunno what it's like here
From what I can see, CS has always had approximately 30% of the workforce being female
even before it was talked about culturally
even before it because a prevalent career path or educational path
that'd suggest the divide is more nature than nurture
that's going back as far as the 80s
People just don't want to accept this explanation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing this article has a number of examples. Early computers were often women, and thus a lot of the early innovation was done by those human computers.
Women in computing were among the first programmers in the early 20th century, and contributed substantially to the industry. As technology and practices altered, the role of women as programmers has changed, and the recorded history of the field has downplayed their achievements.
Since the 18th century, women have developed scientific computati...
if anything, the female ratio has decreased slightly since all the propaganda has been in the mainstream media, subconsciously reinforcing the belief that women don't have the ability to compete with men in CS fields
which brings me back to my point, constant reaffirmation of this issue is only exacerbating the issue
data to back that up? Everything I've heard suggests that women are becoming better represented in STEM, including CS.
Fundamentally, a lot of the sexism was inherited from math, and I couldn't tell you why math is like that
examples, but doesn't disclose percentages of the workforce from what I can see?
you've provided absolutely 0 information to back up that it's nature.
likely stems back to ancient greece
Well, when the field is being created, there isn't really an unbiased way to get that data.
38% in the early 80s to around 33% today, or 10% if you believe some of the developers in this chat higher up (I can't recall if you were one of them or not?)
but that's a huge decline, was 29% in the early 90s
so ratio stayed fairly stagnant since the 80s, if anything, decreased since we been reaffirming the divide in the profession
then again, i suppose i'm arguing in favor of my general view of society. i've always had a fairly firm belief that very little about a person's beliefs are derived from nature, but rather that they're derived from our experiences growing up (not necessarily someone consciously telling us what to believe, but a summation of experiences and the things we've heard).
'The percentage of women working in computer science-related professions has declined since the 1990s, dropping from 35% to 26% between 1990 and 2013'
https://www.computerscience.org/resources/women-in-computer-science/
https://ischoolonline.berkeley.edu/blog/women-computing-computer-science/
arguably the decline could be due to less importance being placed on a degree and raising education fees, as many employers now accept self taught developers
So you claim it started going down instead of up due to the gender imbalance getting brought up?
but there is a noticable decline regardless
I'm not claiming anything, as I don't have the evidence to support that claim... I'm saying it could be adversely impacting the divide, and the data seems to correlate
but there are numerous explanations
that's interesting - though that basically predates the push to get more women into STEM.
which would support the idea that it is nature not nurture?
I don't see how it would...
by ur own words it does not
As far as I can tell, most sources blame video games being marketed to boys, thereby giving them a major advantage
Yeah, I'd suggest that it's largely due to how "nerdy" computers were seen as being during the 80s and 90s.
That's actually something I haven't considered
because you're arguing that the decline in female developers predates the STEM push, which would suggest it's not because they're being told they're not welcome or not able, but simply less women chose to go into those fields as that isn't where their interest aligns
if we take out the cultural influence factor, we're left with nature, right?
biological interests
but we're not taking out the culture factor
just the attempts to correct for the culture factor.
the push to get more women into STEM is an attempt to change or work around existing societal biases.
I'd suggest this is a very good point
take away that push, you're left with just the unmitigated biases.
Women in male-dominated, oppressive countries are more likely to be in STEM than are women in Western nations
how can you make this claim? gaming is generally seen as something guys do, and as such you're biased towards it.
it's pretty indicative that, when given the choice, women don't choose computer science all that often
er - how? Surely you're not going to argue that men are biologically predisposed to be gamers.
by looking at gaming demographics since the inception of more sophisticated gaming
The interest was going up evenly with every other field until 80s
it's indicative that there's something. whether that's a matter of natural or cultural biases is hard to tell.
it's starting to seem like you don't understand what biases are.
One group has freedom, the other doesn't
the thing that makes it practically impossible to accurately determine these things as there's no way to just, like, stop biases. whether they're conscious or unconscious, you're still exposed to them essentially regardless.
The less free ones choose science, the more free ones don't
I would argue that to be the case, yes. Look how many female twitch streamers there are, girls are well aware that gaming welcomes females and even elevates them above males... yet it is extremely male dominated still
which would suggest nature not nurture
idk, seems pretty equally balanced at this point
what's classed as a gamer?
a bias is a prejudice (perhaps unconscious), not a hard barrier
I'd argue playing flappy bird on your phone and computer based games have a vast difference
Are you arguing that twitch is free from sexism and so people choose whether to stream based on their biological interest?
and I'd suggest the latter has much more incentive to follow CS fields
'elevated' sure.... just be a twitch streamer and get asked to show yourself off by everyone
Yeah, this question is important, the graphs are kind of useless without an explanation of how the data was collected
no, my point was that there are a good number of female streamers, which would help to negate any cultural influence discrimination against female gamers
thereby, it would suggest that the cultural influence is not as significant as the nature
without the hard barrier, women overwhelmingly choose not to go into science
as there is still a vast divide in genders across gamers
A good number seems like a stretch tbh.
Unfortunately I can't check the source/publisher information without an account that I don't plan on creating for this




