python-discussion

[turbid sigil]

👋

[clear crystal]

im actually new to programming. im learning flask rn

[gleaming knoll]

how so?

[velvet holly]

It makes more sense to write your intentions down instead of letting your IDE display it for you

[gleaming knoll]

the intention is already written, 0.0 is known to be a float

[velvet holly]

Its like having auto everywhere in C++ to me

[grave tree]

Is var = 0.0 not clear about the intention?

[clear crystal]

i have no idea what are you talking about

[turbid sigil]

we do type hinting for parameters to functions.

[velvet holly]

How do you know if I intended for it to be a numpy f32 or f64 instead though?

[gleaming knoll]

0.0 is a python float (double)

[grave tree]

there's no numpy involved when I do var = 0.0

[bronze dragon]

further, writing something like var: np.float64 = 0.0 does not make var a np.float64

[velvet holly]

I'm specifically passing it to functions that could differ with f32/f64 though. Thats why I'm typing it to make it obvious what the intended type is

[turbid sigil]

if you've worked in java or C before, data types have to be explicitly declared, like:

int number = 4

Python automatically assumes its type int, because that's the closest to the number type:

number = 4

dyssyn2 is confused that we don't declare the type for the variable.

[velvet holly]

Yes but thats why you use a type checker to catch this

[harsh anchor]

in python, variables don't have types. there's no assuming happening there

[turbid sigil]

^ that too

[grave tree]

If a python float doesn't accurately represent your type, then sure you need to specify. But, I don't see how that makes inferred types not make sense

[clear crystal]

i only know python and lil bit of js

[turbid sigil]

they can change on the fly

[gleaming knoll]

for something to change it needs to exist. there is no "variable object" with a "type" field, a name just corresponds to an object (and objects do have a type field)

[clear crystal]

it makes sense tho

[velvet holly]

There's no downside to writing the specific type here (I'm writing a statistics package that takes numpy/pandas input and recasts etc, so some specificity here is good)

[turbid sigil]

there is data to a type field, then the variable which is a pointer to that object then?

[clear crystal]

int? boolean? float? str?

[harsh anchor]

what about them

[velvet holly]

the best C++ practice is to use explicit types when the deduced type isn't immediately obvious from auto (or if the explicit type is very unreadable)

[grave tree]

I mean, it could be overly verbose if you can infer it pretty easily though. It may not make sense your very specific use case, but I thought we were talking generally given the starting question

[cerulean ravine]

what type annotation would you use in this case?

[bronze dragon]

those are types of objects. objects have types. variables are merely names, and they do not have types bound to them as such.

[brittle merlin]

what was your dumbest DUMBEST college/ school project idea?

[velvet holly]

Well I'm using the builtin float here but my func return is tuple[npt.NDArray[np.float64], npt.NDArray[np.float64], npt.NDArray[np.float64]]

[clear crystal]

oh, i dont know other languages other than python so,

[cerulean ravine]

do you have a link to the whole function?

[velvet holly]

being able to specify types on multiple declarations on the same line would be useful in many scenarios though

[cerulean ravine]

yeah, that's not possible. It's ok to take more lines

[velvet holly]

Work in progress but the return is for 3 variance arrays

[turbid sigil]

they are objects in python. Variables point to the objects that have those types, but the variable itself is not the type. Its like a house address. The street address can be something like "123 easy street", but we have no way of knowing what building is there. The data types of "int, str, float" and more are equivalent to the buildings. The address is the variable name.

[cerulean ravine]

does work in progress mean it's not online yet?

[velvet holly]

yeah ty ty

[velvet holly]

yeah I'm porting an R library to python

[cerulean ravine]

it could still be online as a work in progress. Good for backups etc.

[velvet holly]

oh I'll publish it once its finished. I just started

[clear crystal]

should i know these stuff for like game dev or web dev or anything close to that?

[turbid sigil]

Not necessarily. Its something that will come with time, in my opinion.

[velvet holly]

I don't have a lot of python experience so I'm still trying to figure out the syntax for this kind of stuff

[clear crystal]

what language do you have experience with?

[velvet holly]

C++, R, and python in the data science sense

[clear crystal]

R as in rust? if you experience in C++ then it should be a breeze to learn pythob syntax?

[gleaming knoll]

R as in R https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(programming_language)

[velvet holly]

R as in R. Type hinting multiple declarations on one line isn't everyday python

[clear crystal]

Oh cool what is R used for?

[velvet holly]

statistics

[runic flower]

if only someone had posted a link. 🙂

[raven urchin]

In Go you can use both :D

var number int // Defaults to the 0 value.

var number int = 0 // Can be set right there. 

number := 0 //Assumes the type, can only be used inside funcs. ```

[glad egret]

You could break that problem down into something like this

    #transform input into the right format

function byte_reader(filename):
    with open(filename, 'rb') as f
        return transform_format(r.read())

or into even more pieces like

function transform_format(byte_input):
    #transform input into the right format
    return new_format

function check_format(byte_input):
    if(...some check...){
            return 'xml'
    }else if(...some other check...){
            return 'json'
    }
    return 'default'

function byte_reader(filename):
    with open(filename, 'rb') as f
        contents = f.read()
        found_format = check_format(contents)
        return transform_format(contents, format)

integrated into a decorator for completeness.

def decorator(func):
    def wrapper():
        contents = func()
        found_format = check_format(contents)
        return transform_format(contents, format)

    return wrapper

[raven urchin]

Python has a keyword function?

[turbid sigil]

class ByteReader(Reader):
  def read_file(self, f_loc: Path) -> bytes:
    return f_loc.read_bytes()

def read_graph(self) -> bytes:
    return self.byte_converter.convert_to(
      self.file_reader.read_file(self.file_location)
    )

class XMLToElementConverter:
  def convert_to(self, raw: bytes) -> ET.Element:
    return ET.parse(io.BytesIO(raw)).getroot()

definitely clarifies that.

[clear crystal]

um what is this?

[raven urchin]

Complicated stuff, hi

[turbid sigil]

we are talking about putting together simple functions to make complex functions, and testing them

[clear crystal]

what kind of complex function?

[brittle merlin]

this is crazy but what exactly is XML

[harsh anchor]

extensible markup language

[brittle merlin]

can it be used to store data

[turbid sigil]

for example, in my case, I am reading a file as bytes (one format). I then have a function that converts raw data into a file format. I then have a function that puts the file data read, into a converter to the file format to read the file format.

[glad egret]

Ya got it. You might break down each kind of format transformation into its own function too. like transform_to_xml(byte_input) since you will likely have have some condition in the converter that does a different kind of conversion for each type. Then you can test each conversion outside of the main converter function.

[clear crystal]

only the syntax is familier to me

[harsh anchor]

it can

[hexed grotto]

hi!

[turbid sigil]

thanks man. I appreciate it.

[brittle merlin]

can it replace json?

[clear crystal]

welp i only know flask currently, nothing else

[brittle merlin]

I need some some json alternatives man

[raven urchin]

Was it hard to learn?

[harsh anchor]

it can be used like json, but json is more widely used and probably not replaceable

[raven urchin]

SQL?

[clear crystal]

not really tho im learning btw

[harsh anchor]

what are your specific requirements?

[brittle merlin]

I'm assuming retrieval speed and stuff is the same

[glad egret]

@turbid sigil by the end ya end up with 6 super duper no side effect functions and 1-2 ones that contain only thinks like reading file.

[brittle merlin]

I don't want too much nested stuff

I feel like XML and dataclasses would go well together

[ember whale]

Alo

[brittle merlin]

☕

[turbid sigil]

okok, I'll commit to that function style for a majority of my work then.

[harsh anchor]

i mean, xml will just look like a more verbose json

[raven urchin]

SQL 🙂

[turbid sigil]

XML is like a mix of HTML and json, imo

[runic flower]

xml is taking the worst parts of json and combining them with the worst aspects of html
unless you explicitly need the perks of xml you should probably just use json (or toml)

[raven urchin]

lmao

[glad egret]

re: xml; I kind of like node attributes 🙂

[clear crystal]

i literally never heard of XML

[brittle merlin]

I just looked up

XML can do data transfer, whats that supposed to mean?

[raven urchin]

Have heard the name, never used it tho.

[clear crystal]

are these things gonna affect me, im tryna learn web dev

[turbid sigil]

for example, my senior project made an XML file output, and we sent it to our front end, and it was used for rendering a bpmn graph

[gleaming knoll]

wow my desktop literally does not work properly at all

[runic flower]

I remember having to parse xml as raw text to figure out which version of xml a doc was using because microsoft's xml 1.1 parser would literally just crash your app if you tried to open a xml 1.0 doc and ask it what version of xml it was. (I might not have the version numbers correct)

[harsh anchor]

it's just like json. you send someone xml and they can read it in whatever language they want

[turbid sigil]

https://www.fullstackpython.com/table-of-contents.html

[brittle merlin]

i think learning toml will get me the best ROI

[turbid sigil]

its a good resource, it'll tell you what you want to know for web dev stuff.

[gleaming knoll]

the systemd network services fail to start on boot but start if i explicitly start them,
the wallpaper daemon starts at the wrong time on the first niri session after boot (it does work if i exit the session and then start again)
this is like, unbearable. i have been debugging this for multiple hours at this point

[brittle merlin]

ohh

[raven urchin]

Poor guy

[harsh anchor]

toml is nice for manually writing config files, not so much a data interchange format since it's not as popular. but you could use it i guess

[raven urchin]

Just sleep it. Uglier but functional is good.

[clear crystal]

thanks it actually gonna make my life easier now, good thing i recognise most stuff in there

[raven urchin]

Also, the network issues are weird

[turbid sigil]

no problem man. enjoy!

[brittle merlin]

yaml

for docker

toml for python

[harsh anchor]

yaml is a very popular configuration language

[brittle merlin]

XML and JSON for collaborativeness

[glad egret]

haha. i switched to useing i3 widow manager last year, and this sounds a bit like my environment from time to time. Still using it though and its great even when all the different version of randr and exec_always programs are not all that happy

[gleaming knoll]

how can something be worse in this regard than hyprland
like?? i like the scrolling feature of niri but i just cant make my computer start with it properly

[brittle merlin]

is there a python library that renders stuff in any of these formats? (toml yaml json xml)

[raven urchin]

You can use scrolling in Hyprland btw

That's what I use

[brittle merlin]

i don't mean render wait

[turbid sigil]

python has json and xml libraries in the std library @brittle merlin

[brittle merlin]

like generates*

[brittle merlin]

i know

[gleaming knoll]

im going to nuke my desktop again tomorrow i swear

[raven urchin]

Go back to hyprland. New Lua config is dope af, you can literally script your config. :)

Also it has scrolling.

[gleaming knoll]

i am inclined to not use a graphical session at all after this tbh
or systemd
or arch

[brittle merlin]

it's enabled and still?

[turbid sigil]

I've had a guide to NIXOS lying around.

never gotten to trying it though

[raven urchin]

Crashing out over minimal issues is crazy.
Those are not Systemd or Arch problems, since I use Systemd and Arch, and don't have those problems.

Maybe it is Niri conflicting with something, last time I tried it it had weird bugs.

But more graphical than functional.

[turbid sigil]

people deal with things differently. They're probably doing specific use cases different from yours most likely.

[brittle merlin]

try an AI generated hotfix, modify the startup behaviour or something

[raven urchin]

I mean, I doubt he messed with how Systemd starts the network thingy. Lol

Also Niri is pretty new

Not surprised it has bugs

That's why I'm still on Hyprland

[clear crystal]

yep i have no idea lol

[gleaming knoll]

i did because systemd-networkd-wait-online errors because my internet doesn't work before i start the bypass service (thanks my favorite government)

[clear crystal]

im not a snek

[turbid sigil]

this is not snek stuff, so you're fine.

[raven urchin]

[turbid sigil]

its operating systems stuff like windows

[bitter inlet]

hi...

[clear crystal]

ohhhhh okay okay

[turbid sigil]

...im so scared...

[hexed grotto]

hello everyone

[bitter inlet]

you summoned me

dont be scared

[turbid sigil]

lol

[clear crystal]

bros another level of snek

[bitter inlet]

i am, snek

[gleaming knoll]

i dont understand the awww-daemon problem at all though

[raven urchin]

So did you just

systemctl disable systemd-networkd-wait-online.service```?

[gleaming knoll]

like, it starts
but doesnt work?

[brittle merlin]

ohh russia moment

[raven urchin]

Didn't it work with a sleep?

[brittle merlin]

make a bash script dude

[gleaming knoll]

turns out it only worked if i re-ran the session after booting, but not on the first session on boot

[clear crystal]

bye guys i dont understand those stuff, im gonna go watch toy story now lol

[gleaming knoll]

you're saying this like i dont already have 4 of them

[hexed grotto]

why you don't use a voice chat

[turbid sigil]

enjoy the fullstack guide!

[raven urchin]

You know you can edit the .service so you change how systemd initiates the network thingy?

Also @turbid sigil
See, it's not a Systemd problem by itself, but on how he uses his network, he needs to bypass some stuff to use it. :b

I just don't like when people blame the wrong things. 🥀

[gleaming knoll]

the systemd problem is that its really hard to debug

[hexed grotto]

I have a question do you play slime rancher 2

[raven urchin]

Isn't journalctl made for that?

[gleaming knoll]

i have no entries in it because shit hangs and then just errors

[raven urchin]

I don't, I just really love ringtail slime. :)
(I want to buy it soooo bad).

[hexed grotto]

I hope too

[gleaming knoll]

but then i can systemctl start zapret and it works??? like? what?

like why does manually doing everything work but nothing works automatedly

[hasty sparrow]

Print ("Hello world")

[raven urchin]

enable --now 🗣️

[brittle merlin]

can you send systemctl status zapret

here

bro

[gleaming knoll]

its empty on boot, just inactive (dead)

[brittle merlin]

I'm may be forgetting something but did u enable this?

[crisp jay]

and then you use dinit

[bronze dragon]

what does the unit file look like?

[raven urchin]

Have you

systemctl enable --now zapret?

[gleaming knoll]

yes, its enabled, it just doesnt work on boot

[bronze dragon]

so zapret just hangs (with no stdout/err) when you start it too early?

[brittle merlin]

damn how do u even see the logs for this

u have to use AI to decipher this unless uk grep

[raven urchin]

journalctl -u zapret -b

[brittle merlin]

pro

[gleaming knoll]

originally its
https://github.com/bol-van/zapret/blob/master/init.d/systemd/zapret.service
but that didnt work

and it didnt make sense for me that it uses Type=forking
so i made it

Type=oneshot
RemainAfterExit=yes

because as far as i understand its like, a shell script that starts iptables stuff and nfqws and then just exists

[brittle merlin]

@raven urchin teach me linux bro

[raven urchin]

Look at this

[bronze dragon]

ExecStart=/opt/zapret/init.d/sysv/zapret start
ExecStop=/opt/zapret/init.d/sysv/zapret stop
looks like there's an actual zapret daemon, no?

[gleaming knoll]

../sysv/zapret is a shell script
and it runs if i run it manually 🤷 but the unit fails on boot

[raven urchin]

https://f-droid.org/packages/com.inspiredandroid.linuxcommandbibliotheca

[gleaming knoll]

tbh im not sure what to do with the network-online.target either
it might not be reachable considering systemd-networkd-wait-online was timeouting
i tried changing it but nothing seems to work
sleep then run seems too brittle and disgusting

[raven urchin]

Maybe

systemctl edit zapret

[Unit]
After=network.target
Wants=network.target

And disbsle network-wait

[brittle merlin]

I'm viewing this on phone and have no idea what this is

some sort of cheatsheet?

[raven urchin]

Yes.

It has some cool stuff

[gleaming knoll]

tbh my desktop might be cooked after everything i've done to it today

[brittle merlin]

is it possible the changes they're making aren't persisting?

[raven urchin]

Lmao

Come back to Hyprland!!!

It's cooler now!!!

We have everything you need

Scripting config, scrolling layout, and anime girl wallpapers :kek:

[gleaming knoll]

that might've gotten it to work, atleast after a bare reboot rather than a poweroff
maybe its random too, who knows

[raven urchin]

Yayyyyy, really? :D

[fathom pasture]

just edit the service file and config it to run after bypass service?

[gleaming knoll]

im not sure whats the purpose of the wait-online thing at all tbh
it doesnt seem useful on my setup

[terse mauve]

there's no point for network manager to start until all NICs are prepared

for example

Or, tell your DHCP client to boot after NIC is configured by the device drivers

[raven urchin]

I think it's more of a server thingy, because most set ups don't really need anything to wait to connect to the internet at startup, just servers.

Services that need an actual internet connection before they can start (like cloud backup daemons, etc.) declare After=network-online.target so they don't launch into a void. So, for me it kinda is basically useless.

[terse mauve]

@gleaming knoll this is a nice resouce https://systemd.io/NETWORK_ONLINE/

[lyric moth]

Which is the best?
start learning py from books or tuto videos

[grave tree]

It really depends on what works best for you. I do best from something text based

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[frigid breach]

Hey, has anyone ever coded anything in finance and quantitative finance? I have some question to ask about the topic!

[charred tusk]

ask your questions

[frigid breach]

Thanks

[charred tusk]

There's a few finance people here
Not very many quants tho
But no one can answer the question until you actually ask it

[frigid breach]

I was wondering if there are finance pads here, are you one of them by any chance?

[bronze dragon]

pad?

[charred tusk]

Nope, I refuse to work with that many numbers

[cerulean ravine]

dollars aren't interesting

necessary but not interesting

[lyric moth]

Thanks man

[autumn kayak]

more so

A european would rarely do that

[obsidian cape]

what game can i make as a beginner? ( in python)

[arctic plank]

Wsp

[arctic plank]

Guessing game

[cerulean ravine]

Mad Libs

[arctic plank]

Isnt guessing more simpler

[obsidian cape]

if with numbers it's too easy, if with words that's just time consuming

[arctic plank]

U have to commit

[obsidian cape]

twhat?

[cerulean ravine]

https://nedbatchelder.com/blog/202011/mad_libs

[obsidian cape]

yea but i'm suppose to code, not think of questions to put in quiz and putting lambdas one after another

[arctic plank]

Well it can be a secondary project

But I've never tried with words before

[arctic plank]

That's part of the programming

[bronze dragon]

something like wordle would be fun and not time-consuming

[obsidian cape]

true

[arctic plank]

It isnt only abt coding

[rare gazelle]

hello

[bronze dragon]

also makes you use and combine a number of early-stage concepts, so it's probably a good shout for a beginner

[bronze dragon]

👋

[arctic plank]

Well thanks for the idea

[velvet trout]

Libraries that went mad?

[bronze dragon]

yeah, like left-pad

[velvet trout]

What's the meaning of the name

[slender urchin]

!ban 1205209977052991598 racism

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @autumn kayak permanently.

[terse mauve]

pffft that was quick lol

[obsidian cape]

now do i write it in normaly or with Tkinter

[bronze dragon]

your wish
personally I don't like Tkinter 🙃

[arctic plank]

Bruh

[obsidian cape]

why?

[bronze dragon]

the name derives from ad-libs

[velvet trout]

now what's ad-libs

Advertisement libraries?

[bronze dragon]

there are much better UI libraries for Python, there is no real reason to use Tkinter

[velvet trout]

ad-hoc?

[bronze dragon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_libitum

[obsidian cape]

first reason it's really easy

[arctic plank]

Well some people prefer it

[velvet trout]

Ohhhhh. Thanks. Learnt something new today

[bronze dragon]

eh. I think the others (mainly Qt) aren't any harder.

[bronze dragon]

that is true for almost anything

[rare gazelle]

every day you learn something new

[stiff fox]

hello friends

[rare gazelle]

at my age you forget something every day as well

[arctic plank]

I can't even remember a tkinter code😅

[velvet trout]

Hi bipul

[stiff fox]

hello Aji Romson

[rare gazelle]

1 gets in 1 gets out, fifo

[velvet trout]

says the guy who says "all people are nothing but tools" 🥀 🙏

[arctic plank]

......

[slender urchin]

More like 1 and 3 by now

[rare gazelle]

🤣

[bronze dragon]

probably more LFU than FIFO

[summer dagger]

Is reading books like python crashcourse a good way to avoid the tutorial trap

[rare gazelle]

oh true true, lifo

[stiff fox]

When we define class, it's actually object?

[rare gazelle]

oh, you said lfu, i see, also correct

[bronze dragon]

the way to avoid tutorial hell is by writing programs

[cerulean ravine]

classes are themselves objects, yes, but that can get confusing. it's ok to think of them as separate.

[arctic plank]

How do u know that yours writing the right thing

[bronze dragon]

it's not about the kind of resource you use, it's actually about what you do outside the resource

[rare gazelle]

i tried to create a lfu cache base (decorator) not long ago btw

[bronze dragon]

you write it and see if it works. then you show it to others and get critique.

[arctic plank]

Some codes require understanding

[obsidian cape]

also i found a problem, how do i print in 1 line 5 letters with some in different colors?

[bronze dragon]

oh, I see what you thought.
I don't mean that you shouldn't read tutorials, not at all.

[arctic plank]

Ohk

[bronze dragon]

I mean that whatever you read, the important thing is to make sure you're actually putting it into practice alongside the reading.

the important variable in avoiding tutorial hell etc. is whether or not you practice, not whether you read tutorials or books or watch videos

[arctic plank]

I can relate to that

[bronze dragon]

https://github.com/textualize/rich would be useful

[arctic plank]

Spent a year watching only tutorials

[rare gazelle]

i relied on dictionary being ordered

[summer dagger]

Okay

[bronze dragon]

which, by the way, is why I think that the popularization of the term "tutorial hell" was a mistake

[rare gazelle]

well i still didn't publish it so i won't give more details

[bronze dragon]

way too many people just look at the name and come off with an entirely misguided fear

[rare gazelle]

i think that its easier to just watch the tutorial videos

instead of downloading an ide, setting up a venv maybe

[glad egret]

There is a default ordering for regular old dict, and that ordering is likely to never change, but that ordering shouldn't be relied upon. There is a OrderDict class in the stdlib that is there if you do want an ordered dictonary.

[arctic plank]

Well opinions differ

[bronze dragon]

regular dicts are guaranteed to be insertion-ordered by the Python spec since 3.6

although, of course, insertion order might not be useful in your case

[rare gazelle]

its not just an implementation detail iirc

its guarenteed to be ordered

[arctic plank]

I'm still not good with def

[rare gazelle]

i think its objectively easier

[bronze dragon]

watching videos is passive, actually writing code is active

[rare gazelle]

whats easier:
a:
just watching youtubbe tutorials
bb:
watching tutorials and downloading an ide, creating a venv

[obsidian cape]

but doesn't it mean everyone would have to install it first just to play my wordle/

[rare gazelle]

also true

like, you dont need almost anything, to just watch the videos

[arctic plank]

I'm going to start learning python again from start

[hybrid nebula]

Why?

[rare gazelle]

that probably (in my opinion) is the reasoning for the term "tutorial hell"

[bronze dragon]

well, they would already have to install Python also.
as an alternative you can look up "ANSI escape codes for colors" and write them into your program manually.

[arctic plank]

Cuz there are some stuff I skipped

[arctic plank]

Isnt leetcode and the others also helpful

[bronze dragon]

huh? for color text rendering?
-# /j

[arctic plank]

No, for developing skills

[bronze dragon]

I get the reasoning
but I have seen so many beginners just look at the name, and they go away thinking that reading or watching materials labelled "tutorial" is a sin and they'll ruin their learning if they do that, or such nonsense. and then they're stuck because they don't know how to build anything that does real work, and they've disallowed themselves from using tutorials to learn.

[glad egret]

I think your right, but I would have to look it up too. I didn't know its in the spec these days. Image all the thing that would break if they ever changed the default behavior from long long ago haha.

...but more importantly, relying on something that you have to guess about even if its in the spec is not a foundation I want to build on haha. But that is why OrderedDict exists. to make it explicit that ordering is important and relyed upon.

[grave tree]

dict being insertion ordered has been in the spec since 3.7

[bronze dragon]

I mean, for a narrow subset of programming skills. but if you are at the stage of "not good with def" as you said, I would suggest spending time on normal Python and building things with it before you grind Leetcode.

[soft coral]

Hi, I'm Chris !
I used to learn many languages like The C family, HTML/CSS, Java, GdScript... But sadly, I can't really code and I want to learn python again.
Should I start from scratch?

[arctic plank]

Yh I agree

[rare gazelle]

i see, makes sense i guess...
i think that for learning purposes tutorials can be fine as well, only if combined with actual active programming, as you've said
it's easier to just be passive, but eventually it leads to nothing

[glad egret]

pretty recient all things considered 🙂

[pastel sluice]

!LEARN sure, why not?

[edgy kraken]

Did you mean...

» learn-python
» learn

[pastel sluice]

!learn @soft coral sorry

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[velvet trout]

What do people do since id is built-in? trailing underscore id_? but won't that feel 'hmmm nah' ?

if i am not wrong, id on types (User.id, Chat.id, SomeDbModelThatHasID.id) is popular?

[sand jewel]

Hii bye

[grave tree]

not really, 3.7 is EOL since at least 2024

[grim socket]

Hey I’m reading some docs and ran into nested list comprehensions; have you guys ever encountered a real use case similar to: arr = [f"{i}{x}" for x in range(10) for i in range(x)]

[pastel sluice]

id_ is fine.

[bronze dragon]

huh, the fuzzy matcher doesn't do casefolding?

[pastel sluice]

I have used patterns like this before myself more than a few times

[soft coral]

Cs50 course is boring for me and I hate the 10hours + courses

[craggy willow]

you can still use id as an attribute

[rare gazelle]

you've got a point i guess

[pastel sluice]

there's other options in that list, too

[velvet trout]

May be its just me not feeling good about it but that seems to me like a huge downpoint

[hybrid nebula]

slorb works, LEARN not smh

[pastel sluice]

it's a common pattern so you'll be in good company

[rare gazelle]

identity

[velvet trout]

Yeah, that overshadows built-in, though i like the idea of doing so and import builtins to regain the access as a trade-off, not sure if that's appropriate and recommended philosophy?

[rare gazelle]

normally i'd use something else though

[soft coral]

Programming ain't 4 me

[velvet trout]

💀....My bad, i will stick to id_.

[grim socket]

Coool, if I may ask for what ? I’m trying to think of a real world example

[craggy willow]

!e no it doesn't

from dataclasses import dataclass

@dataclass
class Foo:
    id: int

f = Foo(1234)
print(f, f.id, id(f))

[arctic plank]

Can't say until u try

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

Foo(id=1234) 1234 139878746204752

[shrewd dune]

I am so sorry for asking, i just started 2 weeks ago. How hard is learning and mastering python. Kinda stuck at functions right

[soft coral]

Don't try to make the smartest guy, I tried

[pastel sluice]

that example unfolds into a nested loop that would be useful to create some kind of two-dimensional array.

[soft coral]

.

[velvet trout]

for a custom class, with a param name as id will overshadow, right?

[grave tree]

Programming is not easy, Python isn't that bad. It'll take effort but it's not crazy difficult

[pastel sluice]

you just said you wanted to get back into programming.

[arctic plank]

I still find learning python hard but I still try

[soft coral]

no

[rare gazelle]

if only they'd call it check_id

[craggy willow]

nope, it's in the class namespace, doesn't overshadow anything

[rare gazelle]

get_id

[pastel sluice]

#python-discussion message "I want to learn python again." this is your exact words.

[rare gazelle]

id_of

[stiff fox]

So when we create instance from class, p1 = Product() Are we are assigning class object ? to variable p1? or some new object being created which is referance to class object?

[prime mountain]

Did you mean to make it rhyme at the end?

[shrewd dune]

Yeah sql was way easier then python. Mind u this is my first real programm.

[velvet trout]

What do you say about this?

let us overshadow the built-in names, tell linters to disable inspection on this particular, and import builtins to regain the access?

I like this idea

[grave tree]

lol I very much didn't

[soft coral]

ok but why others programming languages tutorial aren't longer?

[arctic plank]

Lazy

[swift sparrow]

A class is like a blueprint. When we do Product(), it is the actual construct of that blueprint

[pastel sluice]

other programming languages have tutorials at least this long or longer.

[bronze dragon]

they're just presented differently.

[soft coral]

No

[swift sparrow]

Product is the blueprint. Product() is the constructed object

[soft coral]

I ain't

[grave tree]

Some other tutorials focus on stuff specific to the language, not programming in general. The new-to-programming-and-python resources we have are longer because they also teach fundamental concepts like loops

[stiff fox]

Does not it's like function callable? and your calling something

[tawdry bolt]

@Helpers Hey, can I learn to code python here?

[arctic plank]

Hardworking = "success"

[pastel sluice]

@soft coral ok, you need to tell us what you actually want, then.

[bronze dragon]

CS50 is structured as a college-level introduction to Computer Science. so it is in the format of hour-long lectures and exercises.
there are other tutorials, with other formats.

[soft coral]

yea but they are better and faster than python

[pastel sluice]

then go learn one of those languages? you can learn anything you want.

[swift sparrow]

It's nothing like a function, they just happen to share the calling syntax

[grim socket]

Awesome thanks @pastel sluice !

[soft coral]

I want to make games

[grave tree]

You don't have to learn Python, but if you do want to learn Python we're here!

[velvet trout]

I am talking about cases such as this:

>>> class A:
...     def __init__(self, id: int) -> None:
...         self.id = id(id)  # suppose i needed memor\
y address? not a good example i know!
...

I know the probability of such cases diffs but its not zero.

[tawdry bolt]

I want to learn

[arctic plank]

There's unity, godot, unreal and others

[bronze dragon]

make the arg name id_, but the attr name id

[soft coral]

Annoying = "Kiyotaka"

[grave tree]

let's not please, we can be nice

[soft coral]

But I can't really code

[velvet trout]

[grim socket]

Why not use the hash value of the object as the UUID ?

[arctic plank]

Me too 😏 but try

[pastel sluice]

@soft coral no matter what language you pick or what kinds of programs you want to write, you'll have to learn how things work in some form.

[grave tree]

Godot is pretty friendly and you can probably learn to code while you learn godot if you're specifically interested in games

[craggy willow]

you can do

    self.id = __builtins__.id(id)

in this weird case

[velvet trout]

why complicate that much lmao

[swift sparrow]

Nobody could code before they learned how to code. We all started from nothing.

[bronze dragon]

if you don't like CS50, again, there are many other tutorials in different formats.
The Python MOOC 2026 is text-based, for example. Automate the Boring Stuff is a literal book.
@soft coral

[soft coral]

Why is everyone says the same thing?

[velvet trout]

Is __builtins__ guaranteed to be always present?

[craggy willow]

yep

[grim socket]

Lol sorry I’m not sure what the context is rn

[velvet trout]

that's cool then

[swift sparrow]

because she's correct

[grave tree]

... because it's true? Like, this is just the reality of the situation

[soft coral]

Bro the heck I know many languages

[rare gazelle]

check_id = id

class A:
  def __init__(self, id: int) -> None:
    self.id = check_id(id)  # suppose i needed memor\

[grim socket]

Actually my mom was a programmer

[raven urchin]

Hi Shoomp :D

[grave tree]

But also if you're interested in games specifically, I would especially take advice from Fashoomp. It's kinda his area. Also Infini has made some cool games

[bronze dragon]

what are you here for?

[swift sparrow]

And she probably didn't know how to code before she leaned how to code either

[autumn forge]

something like```py
class A:
def init(self, id_):
self.id = id(id_)

[swift sparrow]

heyo

[grim socket]

Right it’s a joke relax 😂

[soft coral]

Bcz I can't code idk what I have

[raven urchin]

Well, how are you supposed to know something before you learn that something?

[swift sparrow]

That's exactly my point

[bronze dragon]

The resources we gave you will teach you how to code.

[swift sparrow]

What was the joke?

[velvet trout]

The context is, id is a built-in name of python, but in lots of programs, id is a common name and could collide with the built-in id function and overshadow it. The suggested workaround is a trailing underscore after the name id + _ = id_. i kind of think it is not so pleasing (at least to me). So i was wondering how people work around it.

[glad egret]

I think you are going to find some weird edge cases where you dont want to link the internal object id with internal python object id. If you need the id to be unique I would suggest the uuid class.

[raven urchin]

Hey.
I consider myself being PRETTY dumb. And even I am doing my best to learn how to code. Thanks to my efforts and the help of people at pydis, like shoomp, I've been able to create amazing stuff. ;)

Give it a try, if you truly are interested, you'd be surprised of what you can make with your own hands and mind.

[grim socket]

What are we trying to do with this Id thing ?

[arctic plank]

U tried

[rare gazelle]

wrong reply?

[soft coral]

I've tried many fucking times

[glad egret]

sorry I think it might have been the last one in that class id chain.

[stiff fox]

Both uses callable protocol; The parser does not apply a special grammar rule for classes versus functions when it encounters ()

[velvet trout]

A unique identifier for that class or data.

Like User.id, Chat.id

The context does not need a specific problem, we are generically speaking currently.

[grim socket]

Whats the difference between the internal object id and pythons internal object id i thought they were the same ?

[rare gazelle]

👍

[arctic plank]

What abt a 30mins vid that teaches you the basics

[craggy willow]

can just use uuid instead, but i don't use the builtin id so much that it would prevent me from naming some class attribute id

[cerulean ravine]

i think it's very rare to want your own id variable and also need the id() built-in.

[soft coral]

Bro are you Satan?

[raven urchin]

What did you try exactly?
What did you make when trying?
What stopped you?

[swift sparrow]

Yes. With things like strings and ints, we have the advantage of literals to make new objects. With custom classes, we use the calling syntax. We could still use it for builtins too. I can do int() to get 0. I can do list() to make a new empty list.

[craggy willow]

no me

[summer dagger]

Guys does it count if i type with my screen facing away and call it backend development

[grim socket]

I don’t think satan would be that helpful tbh

[arctic plank]

Ummm

[raven urchin]

I am not good enough to do backend, I prefer fronted :kek:

[grim socket]

Isn’t there a built in id like the hash object or something like that ?

[craggy willow]

hash and id are different things

[stiff fox]

Exactly. Classes are semantically different from functions, but they participate in the same callable execution model.

[rare gazelle]

i wonder if the hash of a number is the same object as the original number...

[velvet trout]

Yeah, agreed; although it's rare, but chances are not zero. So I'm wondering in those cases, i would need to use the trailing underscore convention (id_) but i kind of don't like it.

I thought about the idea, let it overshadow the built-in id() and import builtins (or use dunder builtins) to access the built-in id(). I'd like to know your opinion on this idea.

[rare gazelle]

if its under 2^31

[glad egret]

there is the id that is the attribute to an instance of that class in your example, and id that python automatically generates and assigns somewhere to the internals of the class.

[bronze dragon]

for the cached integers at least this should be true

for 2**31 it is not

[rare gazelle]

hash(5000) is 5000 False

thats such a waste of memory

[grim socket]

Either could do the job I guess it depends what the use case where dealing with ?

[brittle slate]

How would you make a loop to make this shorter:

pi = [3,1,4,1,5,9,2,6,5,3,5,8,9,7,9]
print(pi[0])
print(pi[1])
print(pi[2])
print(pi[3])
print(pi[4])
print(pi[5])
print(pi[6])
print(pi[7])
print(pi[8])
print(pi[9])
print(pi[10])
print(pi[11])
print(pi[12])
print(pi[13])
print(pi[14])

[grave tree]

do you know how to use a for loop?

[viscid coral]

you can try a for loop

[rare gazelle]

a = 5000
b = hash(a)
print(a is b)  # False

[velvet trout]

wouldn't you do == ?

[brittle slate]

Uh no…

[swift sparrow]

equality and identity are not the same thing

[spice hill]

The point is that it doesn't reuse the object. They are equal but not the same object

[rare gazelle]

everytime you hash an integer it creates an object, wtf

waste of memory and performance

[velvet trout]

Oh i see. I was lost at context

[rare gazelle]

in a set for every number there are 2 slots taken (its hash an the actual number)

[velvet trout]

Yeah ik, i didn't understand the context earlier

[viscid coral]

if you want I could teach you

[rare gazelle]

56 bytes for every number in a set

[terse mauve]

just wait until you see what is the hash of -2 and -1

[glad egret]

strongly linking the two will likely cause problems later in testing or around the assumptions that the internal python object id will always be unique. I'm unsure if that would be the case around threads, but its super likely it wont be true across processes i think.

[craggy willow]

why hash an int, it's already its hash

[brittle slate]

Ok

[spice hill]

I'm pretty sure the hash is stored as a native integer. There's no reason to keep the hash as a Python int

[grim socket]

Right equality being == and identity being ‘is’; identity being the type and equality considering the specifics values ?

[rare gazelle]

possible i guess

[swift sparrow]

identity isn't the type, it's the object found at a specific memory

[cerulean ravine]

ints are not 56 bytes, and the internal hash doesn't end up being a Python int.

[rare gazelle]

for 0-2^31 its true

[craggy willow]

those are the only real ints

fake ints don't count

[grim socket]

That’s why data centers === no heating in winter

[rare gazelle]

28*2 i did, but i understand that the internal hash is not using a python int

[cerulean ravine]

i see

[rare gazelle]

hashing an int is checked in set for example, or on equality i guess

[craggy willow]

ned, when did you change colors

[spice hill]

(a 64-bit int actually takes up to 36 bytes, not 28)

[craggy willow]

oh, pycon attendee

nice

[grim socket]

Interesting, like when you go beyond the GIl you can ran into these issue in multithreading apps ?

[cerulean ravine]

except I'm not there anymore!

[craggy willow]

oh no!

i hope i can see some of the talks online

[cerulean ravine]

definitely the object id can differ across processes. It's not a permanent thing.

[grim socket]

Whats the hash of the hashes int’s ?

[craggy willow]

!e

print(10, hash(10), hash(hash(10)), hash(hash(hash(10))))

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

10 10 10 10

[rare gazelle]

why's that

[gilded star]

me

[glad egret]

Just a example where the mental models might not match up. And a case where you will find out after that class is loadbearing in your system and it will be hard to discover that is the issue and pretty hard to fix.

[grim socket]

Maybe there’s difference definitions for levels of abs cause the match case logic matches singletons True False by identity meaning the type right ?

[grim socket]

Coool

[rare gazelle]

same hash, interestingf

[terse mauve]

:)

[rare gazelle]

why's that

-1 is reserved for error or something?

[cerulean ravine]

exactly

[rare gazelle]

👍

[raven urchin]

Production products

Idk why "production ready" and phrases like that always seem funny to me

[coarse salmon]

all you do is copy paste this every few days

[cerulean ravine]

you've said that a few times. Why are you telling us?

[terse mauve]

yessss

[abstract tusk]

Me too

[young flare]

buzzword buzzword buzzword

[vital ice]

there is no answer or reply to my message in couple days, lol

[summer dagger]

What do they keep saying

[bronze dragon]

what answer do you expect?

[rare gazelle]

what he said

[summer dagger]

Well it is deleted so im guessing a spam wall

[rare gazelle]

if only i had the power of the mods to see deleted messages...

[vital ice]

no I deleted it

[summer dagger]

https://tenor.com/view/discord-mod-discord-4chan-reddit-gif-12469709983918782970

[main swan]

if only i had the power of mods to react with emojis.

[bronze dragon]

not quite a wall, but a standard "I specialize in [...] integrating AI and LLMs [...] production" self-promo

[glad egret]

I don't think I understand. I think of the id you get back from the global id function like a memory address(I'm not sure if its an actual memory address)

But if I need to make a class that had a unquie id attribute I would do something like

@dataclass
... class Foo:
... id: str = uuid4()
...

f = Foo()
f.id
UUID('68b90467-369b-4f39-a81b-4379c9ef6533')
id(f)
127181685461008

ya have your pick of like 8 uuid function. some are guaranteed to be unique some or just really really likely. some leak sensitive info.

[cerulean ravine]

there's no answer because we think you are looking for a job or a contract, and that's not allowed on this server.

[young flare]

this is not the place to look for job btw

[summer dagger]

Help ive seen that everywhere and it sounds like something ai bros or vibecoders would say

[bronze dragon]

it is lol

[vital ice]

thank you for your answer, I didn't know about that

[raven urchin]

Go look on LikedIn or something like that

[cerulean ravine]

strange, it's in the rules you agreed to when you joined.

[terse mauve]

!rule pay

[edgy kraken]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[young flare]

you will have better chances of getting one outside of discord itself

[summer dagger]

At first i thought vibecoding was just being lazy and coding while watching netflix or something

[obsidian cape]

i decided to use discord instead of AI, How to check if entry output (from tkinter) is of length 5 and then remove it?

[summer dagger]

But yeah using ai and not even checking it is crazy

[raven urchin]

Can I offer to pay with hugs if someone helps me at #1035199133436354600 ?

[spice hill]

int uses 30-bit digits, 64 doesn't fit in two thirties

[terse mauve]

someone will help, invest your hugs into something profitable

[young flare]

post your question

[rare gazelle]

so make it 60 not 64

[raven urchin]

"invest your hugs" amazing line. 😭

[terse mauve]

you know my people, we are pretty good with financial stuff

[raven urchin]

That twisted quickly

[rare gazelle]

in 32 it uses 30, in 64 it can use 60

[cerulean ravine]

2**60-1 takes 32 bytes, 2**61-1 takes 36

[rare gazelle]

uh i see, so its up to 30, then up to 60, etc
so there is also 60 bits used, until 2*60-1
most of the range of 64 bits

[terse mauve]

nooooooo, the linux mirror at github has disabled PRs. one of the funniest PRs was deleted. it was a guy fixing a "typo" and made a pr to make everything from long long -> long

[final hollow]

Github uses Java..?

[spice hill]

they should've made it loong instead of long long

[main swan]

I thought it was mostly written in Ruby

[raven urchin]

longong

[spice hill]

and u128 would be looong

[final hollow]

Ruby has long longs?

[terse mauve]

"had" 💀

[final hollow]

I thought Ruby didn't have explicit static typing

[spice hill]

Bananabun is talking about the Linux repo

[terse mauve]

correct

[spice hill]

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/

[raven urchin]

torvals/linux

Aura 🗣️ 🔥

[terse mauve]

there were so many funny PRs there

[final hollow]

Oh. They use long long instead of fixed width integers in the repository? Interesting

[raven urchin]

What even is a long long

It sounds too funny to be real

[velvet trout]

float i think

[wise imp]

long long is definitely not a float

[final hollow]

Long long is an integer that's meant to be larger than a long int

[velvet trout]

then my next guess is A VERY LONGGGGG NUMBER

[civic turret]

Guys i have my leaving cert computer science exam tomorrow it has a section C python based part where u have t9 code any tips

Ik the basics n like to use tab instead of space

[final hollow]

But since it's C++ there's no guarantees on integer sizes

[raven urchin]

pretty descriptive

[cerulean ravine]

have you been studying python?

[civic turret]

Yes a bit i wont lie n say it have a lot but I have

Ik loops n all but I still dont understand how functions work

[terse mauve]

https://web.archive.org/web/20260129030213/https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/1290

This is not the one I was talking about, but still funny

[cerulean ravine]

i'm not sure we can get you up to speed for an exam tomorrow.

[main swan]

my rec is to try doing as many problems as you can from: https://codingbat.com/python

[civic turret]

Oh lol damn

[civic turret]

Bet thank you

[final hollow]

Yeah in modern C/C++ you don't really see it.. C and C++ don't guarantee the sizes of integers (it just has guaranteed minimum sizes relative to the smaller types). So an int on one system could be 64 bits, but could be 32 bits on another system.

[raven urchin]

o

[real crescent]

can sm1 recommend a project to do as a python beginner

[terse mauve]

!print-return-gif

[edgy kraken]

Print and return

Here's a handy animation demonstrating how print and return differ in behavior.

See also: /tag return

[main swan]

Ned can: https://nedbatchelder.com/text/kindling

[real crescent]

what exactly is ned?

[terse mauve]

@ nedbat

[rare gazelle]

very_long

[raven urchin]

!kind

[edgy kraken]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[rare gazelle]

longest

[real crescent]

okay thankyou

[raven urchin]

long longest

[final hollow]

The reason why varies due to CPUs and operating systems. It's convoluted. That's why we use fixed width integers instead (uint32_t for unsigned 32 bit int for example)

[main swan]

#define longest unsigned long long

i like it.

[rare gazelle]

😁

[raven urchin]

And someone said it's better to learn with low level instead of high level langs, what a dumb person... This sounds complicated.

[main swan]

i've heard this argument. I think the point is it helps you learn to build from the gorund up.

[rare gazelle]

longest longest

[spice hill]

#define tall int
#define grande long int
#define venti long long int

[main swan]

coffeescript

[terse mauve]

Found it!

https://web.archive.org/web/20251005030718/https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/335

[rare gazelle]

i claimed in here that i didn't understand C# correctly until i've learnt C

[final hollow]

C++ is extremely large. Many people just use subsets of the language because of how vast it is. C grants more explicit control without abstraction, but has fewer niceties

[rare gazelle]

thinking about it, in github issues, people tend to be nicer, compared to stackoverflow

[raven urchin]

High level is better for learning because you have simpler stuff to learn, and it's easier to digest.

[bronze dragon]

there are complicated things at all levels and languages

[terse mauve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc2UEfWjvo8

[main swan]

perhaps. I have yet to see studies eitherway. Nevertheless, I learned python first (well, technically C++, but that was a mistake) and thought it was fun so I'm fine with whatever if that makes sense.

[rare gazelle]

do you consider C# as higher level than C

[terse mauve]

yes

[main swan]

C# is closer to Java than C.

[terse mauve]

anything that is not asm is higher than C I believe

[raven urchin]

I consider C# a language. I don't know anything about it, just that C is preeeeetty low.

[main swan]

What about C--, or LLVM?

[raven urchin]

C--? 😭

[rare gazelle]

well, i tell you that C# was hard for me, compared to C

C# was my first language, C second iirc

[bronze dragon]

that doesn't imply that it's low-level though

[main swan]

Haskell Backend (iirc)

[rare gazelle]

it implies in my opinion that higher level for first language not necessarily means easier

[terse mauve]

yeah, they are lower

[raven urchin]

I don't know anything about it. I can't compare it with anything.

[bronze dragon]

oh, sure. I can agree with that.

[rare gazelle]

or simpler...

but i think that python can be a good languge for beginners

[terse mauve]

it's great for beginners

[raven urchin]

It's amazing

It made me understand programming basics. :D

[rare gazelle]

the thing with python is that it's not pushing you to use classes and namespaces

and letting you progress at your own pace, without many strict rules preventing you from starting

[bronze dragon]

yeah
it's high-level, has easy-to-read syntax, not much boilerplate, and can do a ton of practical things due to its ecosystem

[prime mountain]

I just read up on classes

[rare gazelle]

yea

[raven urchin]

What are namespaces

[bronze dragon]

!zen namespaces

[edgy kraken]

The Zen of Python (line 18):

Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

[raven urchin]

what 😭

[rare gazelle]

its hard for me to define it

[bronze dragon]

namespaces let you group names into a single entity, so something like a module acts as a namespace for everything defined inside it.

literally, a space for holding names.

[rare gazelle]

a module in python for example, yea

[raven urchin]

Oh

[rare gazelle]

dude... only now i understand not gonna lie

name - spaces, spaces for names

[raven urchin]

So like, a class and its methods count too?

[bronze dragon]

yep

[raven urchin]

Yay

[prime mountain]

Is method calling of classes a use of namespaces?

Or have I gotten it wrong?

[rare gazelle]

in python anything you do . is namespaces forwarding, if you understand what i'm saying

on names i mean

not 5.14

[prime mountain]

Okay yeah...

[rare gazelle]

the descriptor protocol is also very interesting

eivl taught me a lot about it

[prime mountain]

So much stuff I want to learn..

So little time...

[rare gazelle]

its a bit complicated topic though

basically it's regarding namespaces, what object you get in return, when you call for a name

[terse mauve]

Andrej Karpathy is joining anthropic

[rare gazelle]

who's that

[terse mauve]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrej_Karpathy

[bronze dragon]

AI researcher

[terse mauve]

openAI co-founder

[rare gazelle]

i see

[prime mountain]

[raven urchin]

I FEEL YOUUU

😭

[velvet trout]

DID SOMEONE JUST MENTION DESCRIPTOR PROTOCOL?

holy peak mentioned

[terse mauve]

you need to stop using the class keyword for a while

[velvet trout]

[ocean ridge]

is karpathy skills by chance related to this guy? heard of it

[raven urchin]

What is that

[rare gazelle]

._.

[velvet trout]

The black magic of Python

Even science cannot explain it

[raven urchin]

Elaborate, please

[velvet trout]

Ever wonder how your instance methods get self implicitly without having you explicitly pass it?

[velvet trout]

_._

[rare gazelle]

yea also part of the descriptor protocol

[velvet trout]

Ever wonder how @property makes a function an attribute without calling by () ?

[rare gazelle]

you know quite a lot about the descriptor protocol

[velvet trout]

Why do you think i do not

[rare gazelle]

thats right, property also uses it

[raven urchin]

Sure does

[rare gazelle]

i didn't say u dont ._.

[velvet trout]

I just bad at explaining 😔

[velvet trout]

That's right

[rare gazelle]

_._

[velvet trout]

I know stuff but hard to explain, it just floats in my brain without language form

[rare gazelle]

its an interesting topic indeed

[rare gazelle]

if i'd show you an example, i dont think you'd understand it

or anyone else other than you

[arctic plank]

Hi

[raven urchin]

Try

[rare gazelle]

you need to learn it properly, in my opinion, in order to understand it

[velvet trout]

I forgot how the lookup for that happens

But the first time i learnt about it and used it — it was a beautiful experience of such a phenomenon

[tawdry bolt]

<@&831776746206265384> hey, where do we learn python guys?

[bronze dragon]

please do not ping moderators for things like this...

[grave tree]

You were told earlier to only ping that role if you need Moderator assistance

[arctic plank]

Well it can't get any weirder

[prime mountain]

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[steady rain]

!mute @tawdry bolt "3 days" maliciously pinging moderators

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @tawdry bolt until <t:1779476629:f> (3 days).

[velvet trout]

IIRC, Because the function implements dunder get, the dunder get gets two positional parameters (instance: object | None, owner = None (basically the class/type)) which wraps the original function and pass it

[rare gazelle]

i'm thinking about a simple example

[rare gazelle]

do you know of decorators?

[raven urchin]

Yes

[steady rain]

@tawdry bolt in case you didn't realize, this isn't a funny joke. Moderators get dozens of pings a day and your behavior contributes to mod burnout.

[velvet trout]

https://docs.python.org/3/howto/descriptor.html

Lemme read from here and try to teach

[raven urchin]

I don't really know how to write them properly, but I kinda know what they do.

[arctic plank]

Well that would surely teach him a lesson

[velvet trout]

@raven urchin i think this explains quite goodly

[velvet trout]

What do you mean by weird

[raven urchin]

Let's see

[arctic plank]

Nothing

[velvet trout]

Might also have lookup and other technical details which is good to know to understand

[burnt marlin]

hi

[arctic plank]

👋

[velvet trout]

hi the ultimate lifeform but faster

[velvet trout]

Yeah, "nothing".

Just like... All people are nothing but tools.

[arctic plank]

Hmmmm

Winning is everything

[velvet trout]

True

🗿

[arctic plank]

That's why I'm gonna win

[velvet trout]

Nah, I'd win.

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**What was the first thing you created with Python?**

Suggest more topics here!

[rare gazelle]

class my_property:
  def __init__(self, fn):
    self.fn = fn

  def __get__(self, instance, owner):
    return self.fn(instance)


class a:
  def __init__(self, name):
    self.name = name

  @my_property
  def get_name(self):
    return self.name


a_instance = a("jason")

print(a_instance.get_name)

[buoyant finch]

With a dataclass, if I define a __post_init__ method, does that code run as part of the call to __init__?

In my use-case, the __post_init__ does some validation to make sure that the class is set up correctly, and raises an exception if not.

If I try/catch the call to MyClass(foo, bar, baz), I'll catch exceptions raised in __post_init__, right?

[rare gazelle]

watch this, my_property is a simple implementation of a property

[velvet trout]

print("Hello, world!")

[arctic plank]

Age thing

[frosty oriole]

it runs after init finishes

[raven urchin]

oohhhhh, that's really cool. I didn't know classes could be decorators.

[rare gazelle]

when doing @my_property its like doing my_property(get_name), so it creates a property object

[floral terrace]

why the topic changed lmao

[spice hill]

It runs after __init__ finishes, as Robin says it runs as part of the __init__. Calling MyClass() will raise all exceptions that __post_init__ raises

[velvet trout]

+1, and also instance can be None so you gotta have to account for when instance is None if i am not wrong

[rare gazelle]

decorator is only a sugar syntax for : @a instead of a(b)

[velvet trout]

Anything that is Callable can be used as a decorator

[rare gazelle]

yea thats correct, it can be None if its not called from an instance

[velvet trout]

Yup!

[rare gazelle]

^pretty much

[burnt marlin]

this calculator https://paste.pythondiscord.com/46IQ

[terse mauve]

decorators are syntactic sugar for:

@deco
def func():
  pass

func = deco(func)

where deco can be anything callable

[frosty oriole]

When defined on the class, it will be called by the generated __init__(), normally as self.__post_init__()
hm

[spice hill]

!e

from dataclasses import dataclass

@dataclass
class Foo:
    field: object
    def __post_init__(self):
        print("post_init")

class Bar(Foo):
    def __init__(self):
        print("evil init that doesn't call __post_init++")
print("calling Foo")
Foo(1)
print("calling Bar")
Bar()

[viral vale]

If i am already familiar with data science what i can start learning
Flask or node js for the backend

[velvet trout]

Me don't like those questions lol

[raven urchin]

I see, I thought it worked just for funcs

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | calling Foo
002 | post_init
003 | calling Bar
004 | evil init that doesn't call __post_init++

[rare gazelle]

so after the my_property object is created, it gets fn with the inserted function
then on get it calls it with instance being the self of that function

[arctic plank]

Mine was simpler

[rare gazelle]

post_init should exist for every object not gonna lie

its very useful

sadge it isn't

[spice hill]

Why?

[rare gazelle]

mainly for subclasses

[burnt marlin]

it does have some self-deprecation that i kind of still agree with

[finite sigil]

Does anyone even codes by themselves nowadays ?

AI kinda killed coding right ?>

[spice hill]

of course (to the first message)

[terse mauve]

You can do it with a function, but sometimes it's easier with a class.

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/8b31d08e62b9714cf8dd1d8b19afa5ecbad2414a/Lib/functools.py#L1021

[edgy kraken]

Lib/functools.py line 1021

class singledispatchmethod:```

[arctic plank]

Why u asking

[rare gazelle]

say you want to add some logic to init, you're fucked

[finite sigil]

Cause I haven't heard anyone who does recently

[terse mauve]

yes

[rare gazelle]

must implement init, with all arguments, call super

[terse mauve]

no

[floral terrace]

No I use butterfly

[terse mauve]

ik that reference!

[rare gazelle]

all you do with the arguments is pass them to super

pretty much pointless shit

[burnt marlin]

https://tenor.com/view/ours-blanc-meme-bonjour-polaire-polar-bear-gif-25176258

[rare gazelle]

and if there're overloads, you're fucked even more

[burnt marlin]

damn it no embed perms

[rare gazelle]

need to include all those in your class

[arctic plank]

Well see ya

[spice hill]

Many people here program by themselves, or using AI as an aid, not as the main programming tool.

[raven urchin]

I see

[arctic plank]

Yh I use it for something stuff I don't understand

[rare gazelle]

post_init should be for all classes to avoid this shitty problem

[finite sigil]

Maybe the people I work wit are different after all

[rare gazelle]

and get is triggered when you look for that name, in that namespace

[terse mauve]

post init is a dataclass specific

[pastel sluice]

There is still enormous number of people who program on their own

[rare gazelle]

a_instance.get_name
^namespace ^name

[spice hill]

That's definitely a self-inflicted problem with type hints. *args, **kwargs has existed since Python 2.0 and works just fine.

[raven urchin]

I see, now I kinda want to try :)

[finite sigil]

Source?

[rare gazelle]

yea thats pretty much stupid

[raven urchin]

#bot-commands

[pastel sluice]

Many of them are right here in the server talking to you

[terse mauve]

why?

[rare gazelle]

what has that to do with anything i said

[spice hill]

def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
    super().__init__(*args, **kwargs)
    # do what you would do in __post_init__

[rare gazelle]

because only dataclas has it

[rare gazelle]

that ruins the signature

are you for real

[terse mauve]

the whole point of __init__ is to initialize the object. dataclasses generates the __init__ for you

[velvet trout]

[rare gazelle]

yea but post_init is still useful

[terse mauve]

normal classes have __init__ what's the point of having __post_init__ for hand written classes?

[rare gazelle]

the idea of it

[dull dune]

wyou can type kwargs at least wtih typeddict now

[terse mauve]

why?

[rare gazelle]

for subbclasses mainly

dude i explained it all like 5 messages ago

[spice hill]

It is a bit annoying, but since the superclass is specified right there, you can just go to the superclass and see the actual signature.

[rare gazelle]

^

[terse mauve]

create an abc with a setup method

[velvet trout]

Why do other programming languages need new keyword to create a new of a object?

in python, dunder new is called by type's dunder call i guess?

[wise imp]

There are also companies that simply can't allow an external AI-product to be used internally for producing code due to various regulations or policies, because it's a risk factor. In those cases they might I guess self-host an LLM, but I wouldn't know about that, I have heard somewhere that some companies do do that however.

[rare gazelle]

...

[velvet trout]

I kind of confused

[rare gazelle]

how

[pastel sluice]

that's just how the other languages are. a conscious decision was made not to need that in Python.

[dull dune]

what was your method for surveying all developers?

[rare gazelle]

maybe i'll just create a post_init dunder

but i dont know how, a metaclass perhaps

[velvet trout]

Ohh

[spice hill]

I'm still not sure what the problem is, if we ignore type checking concerns.

[rare gazelle]

maybe you'd wrap init to call it after its finished or something...

[finite sigil]

The people around me and in the previous firm

[dull dune]

also because of python's brand of duck typing

it makes it really easy, classes are callable

[rare gazelle]

thats the problem basically, a problem that shouldn't exist, dataclass already solved it

[dull dune]

so you can call them

[terse mauve]

from abc import ABCMeta, abstractmethod

class MyMeta(metaclass=ABCMeta):
  @abstractmethod
  def setup():
    pass

[rare gazelle]

i see, not what i thought of though

[spice hill]

That's what I meant: it was a totally fine solution, but then type checking came along and made it a bad solution because they didn't add anything to automatically forward a signature.

[rare gazelle]

post_init

[terse mauve]

Then it would be required for any class the inherit MyMeta to define it's own setup method

[rare gazelle]

solved

[spice hill]

So now we need a runtime solution to a type checking inflicted problem.

[rare gazelle]

why not though

[velvet trout]

The lack of underscore between abstract and method is concerning me

[dull dune]

generally if it's a 2-word phrase and not hard to understand at a glance it's fine to not use a _ between words. I think abstractmethod is pushing it by length alone, but...

[rare gazelle]

go for it!

[velvet trout]

[raven urchin]

I don't have any ideas on what to make with it

[spice hill]

We could instead fix the core issue and add something for forwarding *args, **kwargs. For example: if @typing.override is applied to a function with *args, **kwargs, then they are not assumed to be Any and Any, but rather to be the arguments to the parent method. This would also fix the same issue for methods other than __init__, along with not adding more stuff to the language.

[raven urchin]

I saw a cool example on the docs about a DirectorySize

[rare gazelle]

that would just make it uglier to be fair, but a possibble solution

[pastel sluice]

I write for a publication that is aimed at enterprise software developers. There's a lot of interest in AI for writing software, no question about it. There is also at least as much skepticism about it, and serious questions about how sustainable the whole practice is, and discussions around how generating tons of code on demand is actually a net burden and not an asset

[rare gazelle]

its more of a solution if u need the arguments

but if you dont need the arguments, post_init is a pretty solid option

[barren sentinel]

I’m actually getting rage baited by type checkers right now. I try to write some nice clean match code, no type checker supports the narrowing. I try to write it using explicit instance checks, still no support. I end up having it write it in a much less clear form.

[terse mauve]

how generating tons of code on demand is actually a net burden and not an asset

https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/pull/30412

[velvet trout]

Getting rage baited by a type checker? Lmao

[rare gazelle]

make a cached property

[barren sentinel]

Not just a type checker, all of them

[raven urchin]

Cached property?

[velvet trout]

Could u show the code with issue?

!doc functools.cached_property see also

[edgy kraken]

functools.cached\_property

@functools.cached_property(func)```
Transform a method of a class into a property whose value is computed once and then cached as a normal attribute for the life of the instance. Similar to [`property()`](https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#property), with the addition of caching. Useful for expensive computed properties of instances that are otherwise effectively immutable.

Example...

[rare gazelle]

a property that calculates the value once, and returns it from that point forward

[terse mauve]

!d functools.cached_property

[edgy kraken]

functools.cached\_property

@functools.cached_property(func)```
Transform a method of a class into a property whose value is computed once and then cached as a normal attribute for the life of the instance. Similar to [`property()`](https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#property), with the addition of caching. Useful for expensive computed properties of instances that are otherwise effectively immutable.

Example...

[velvet trout]

[raven urchin]

Ohhhh, so like pop() for an attribute?

But without yanking it out

[terse mauve]

not really

[rare gazelle]

a post_init with args and kwargs is also a valid option not gonna lie

[velvet trout]

What kind of narrowing? iirc match-case is good for exhaustive narrowing? We also have typing.assert_never() i think an example would be better

[raven urchin]

[rare gazelle]

although that makes it less clean^

[raven urchin]

It's like

[velvet trout]

I think cached_property doesn't work for frozen dataclasses? Idk i think i had an issue once...

[rare gazelle]

init gets the same arguments new is getting, its not a big stretch for post_init to get those arguments as well

[terse mauve]

think of it like this:

cache = {}
def my_propery():
  if "res" in cache:
    return cache["res"]

  res = heavy_function()
  cache["res"] = res
  return res

[terse mauve]

it should. but will not work if you have __slots__

[velvet trout]

Oh i see, i did had slots=True

[terse mauve]

because defining __slots__ means that you have no __dict__

[raven urchin]

Well, I got more confused lol

[barren sentinel]

https://paste.pythondiscord.com/YYKA

[terse mauve]

imagine we have a very computation intensive function, instead of returning the result right away, we "memorize" which arguments returns which values, so if we get called again with the same arguments

[raven urchin]

cache is a dict
my property returns the "res" of cache if "res" is in cache

res = heavy func
cache["res"] is then set to res
and returns res?

[rare gazelle]

i just realized something... i might be wrong about it, but i think i'm correct

[terse mauve]

we could just return our cached value, and no need to calculate something heavy again

[rare gazelle]

there's a default for metaclass call....
it calls the new and then init

what if you override call (to also call post init if it exists)

[barren sentinel]

(Also I realized fail_2 should have the not removed but the lack of narrowing is the same anyways)

[raven urchin]

Yeah, I get it that way, but I don't really get how you wrote it. Let me try it myself...

[rare gazelle]

another option is for it to always exist

[grim socket]

how to screen share please ? I want to go over python docs in VC0

[rare gazelle]

and to always call it

[velvet trout]

23 should be just or instead or not if i am not wrong

And i don't think type checker is wrong? It just cannot prove that for first case the .content will be definitely a string

Can it?

[barren sentinel]

For the first one? It should be. Either it’s ItemToken + content str, or StringToken, which is content str by default.

[velvet trout]

ItemToken(str()) never used like this, i haven't tried for attributes

[barren sentinel]

It is a valid match usage at runtime: ```pycon

from dataclasses import dataclass
...
... @dataclass
... class A:
... item: int | str
...
... def foo(a: A):
... match a:
... case A(int()):
... print("int", a.item)
... case _:
... print("str", a.item)
...
foo(A(1))
int 1
foo(A("a"))
str a

[velvet trout]

I see

[jagged belfry]

!e ```py
from dataclasses import dataclass

Item = int | str

@dataclass
class A:
item: Item
second: str

def foo(a: A):
match a:
case A(int()):
print("int", a.item)
case _:
print("str", a.item)

print(foo(A(1, "b")))
print(foo(A("a", "b")))

[raven urchin]

None?

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | int 1
002 | None
003 | str a
004 | None

[jagged belfry]

or

maybe not

sigh

I misread it

[barren sentinel]

No? You don’t need to provide every entry in a match, your first code worked as expected/the same as the second

[jagged belfry]

yeah I misread the answer

[barren sentinel]

Oof

[jagged belfry]

Yeah so I guess it works fine

So, type checkers just don't do that I guess

it might be an intersection of the dynamic dataclass support and match narrowing

[barren sentinel]

Which is major levels of bullying

[jagged belfry]

does the same fail typechecking if you've manually written __init__?

[barren sentinel]

The equivalent manual isinstance testing also doesn’t work, so I don’t think so

[grim socket]

Can one mutate a mutable object inside a tuple ?

[bronze dragon]

yes

[grim socket]

so where is the tuple being inmutable line drawn

[bronze dragon]

you can't add/remove/reassign elements of the tuple itself

[grim socket]

but you could reasign an element in a list thats nested inside a tuple ?

[bronze dragon]

sure

[brisk gazelle]

Don't think of tuples and lists as containers of objects, but of references to objects.

[bronze dragon]

you can think of it as, the tuple only cares that the references it holds do not change
the objects being referred can change however they want

[grim socket]

wouldn't that change the tuple ? thus being a mutated tuple not the same tuple as before?

[bronze dragon]

from the tuple's perspective, it is still referring to the same objects at any point. but you're right. a deepcopy of the tuple at one point in time may not compare equal to a deepcopy at a different point in time.

[grim socket]

so it just holds an identity check guard for it's immutability definition ?

[tidal lily]

When you have an object, and you change something about its internal state, it's still the same object in memory. The tuple only cares that it's the same object

[tidal lily]

There's no identity check, you just can't assign to elements after creating the tuple

[floral terrace]

well, imagine if you have a kid, and your kid just change their clothes, is your kid a new person?

[bronze dragon]

not really. more like, it is immutable (in the tuple sense) by construction. what I mean by that is, it simply does not allow reassignment, and does not have any methods to append or delete or insert elements.

[grim socket]

hah good one

[floral terrace]

ye, imagine tuple as something like that

[bronze dragon]

i.e. tuple.__setitem__ and tuple.__delitem__ always throw an error, and there is no such method as tuple.append, etc.

[golden mortar]

It's the same tuple of references as before. That's the sense in which it's immutable.

[bronze dragon]

so, there are no simply no allowed means for you to modify the tuple in the senses it cares about

[tidal lily]

!e
a = "Hello"
b = (a,)
b[0] = a

[edgy kraken]

:x: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 1.

001 | Traceback (most recent call last):
002 |   File "/home/main.py", line 3, in <module>
003 |     b[0] = a
004 |     ~^^^
005 | TypeError: 'tuple' object does not support item assignment

[tidal lily]

Doesn't work, doesn't matter what you're assigning

[grim socket]

right so as long as it hold the references to the same objects its still my child

[arctic plank]

This is the simplest guessing game ever

import random

while True:
    number = int (input("Enter your guess:"))
    dice = random.randint(1,10)
    
    if number == dice:
        print ("Congrats")
        break
    else:
        print (" sorry")
    
    

[grim socket]

the objects may mutate there states but the references stay the same thus mutable elements in a tuple can be mutated

[floral terrace]

yup, love your child

[terse mauve]

there's no need fot the else, but yeah. pretty good one

[tidal lily]

If you think about it, there's no way for the tuple to know a mutable object inside has changed, and the mutable object has no way to know it's inside some tuple

[bronze dragon]

tuples could have disallowed mutable members in the same way that sets/dicts do, but idk if that would have been a good idea
probably not?

[gleaming knoll]

imagine someone doing 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 and they never win because its changing each time

[tidal lily]

sigh I upgraded to windows 11 and now the 8 versions of Python I installed in the past 6 years no longer work

[arctic plank]

Lol

[proud nacelle]

Quick sanity question. Will continue allow the program to progress to write_06H_register() or go back to the top of the try block?

def input_06H_register():
    while True:
        try:
            register = int(input("Register (decimal or 0x hex): "), 0)
            value = int(input("Value (decimal or 0x hex): "), 0)
            controller_id = int(input("Controller ID (1-32): "), 0)
            if not (1 <= controller_id <= 32):
                print("Invalid controller ID! Must be 1-32.")
                continue
            write_06H_register(
                                register, 
                                value, 
                                controller_id)

[arctic plank]

Is there a way to make tuples mutable

[bronze dragon]

yes, turn them into a list

[gleaming knoll]

continue goes to the loop header

[terse mauve]

yes, but it's involving some ctypes dark magic

[grim socket]

oh interesting so some data types have some level of awareness?

[velvet trout]

continue goes back to while condition to check if condition is True and if True it starts from top of while loop, if condition is False, it exits while loop

[grim socket]

seems like windows is the problem tbh hah

[proud nacelle]

Ah alright. I guess that's kind of weird when it's named 'continue'. But it functions as I want it to then

[bronze dragon]

continue as in "abandon the current iteration and continue to the next one"

[tidal lily]

You'd need to implement a very specific mechanism for very specific classes to allow them to communicate like that. It's technically feasible, but not something you'll have unless you go out of your way to make it happen

[proud nacelle]

That makes more sense

[gleaming knoll]

the magic in question: ctypes.cast(id(tup)+().__sizeof__(), ctypes.POINTER(ctypes.py_object))[idx] = value

[grim socket]

oh very cool, is there a specific real world use case where this would be great or just some fun?

[terse mauve]

a magician never tells it's secrets (you just did)