python-discussion

[rare gazelle]

no

[swift sparrow]

pandemic meant everyone was indoors with nothing else to do and games saw a big uptick, so studios overhired to pump out new projects. We're now seeing the collapse of that

[velvet trout]

Then

[pallid garden]

abc is abstract base class

[wise imp]

I meant more in terms of culture

long work hours, minimal pay?

[craggy willow]

i feel like there was a game drought during pandemic too

[swift sparrow]

like, work-life balance in game dev?

[ashen jungle]

abc means the class can't be instantiated
final i believe stops the class from being subclassed/inherited from
they each have their own purposes but here they're used to make the class act as just a namespace

[wise imp]

yes

[swift sparrow]

yeah, projects definitely got delayed

[rare gazelle]

you can read this conv^ @velvet trout

!d typing.Final

[velvet trout]

One can use abc on a class to make its subclasses implement some contract methods (abstract methods) if not, abc class will error

[edgy kraken]

typing.Final

typing.Final```
Special typing construct to indicate final names to type checkers.

Final names cannot be reassigned in any scope. Final names declared in class scopes cannot be overridden in subclasses.

For example...

[craggy willow]

like, amongus and chess got popular because there was nothing else to play

[jade robin]

the pandemic was the best time to game

[swift sparrow]

it does really depend on the studio, but I think that aspect is better now. Studios are hyper-aware of overcrunching and trying to avoid the bad publicity of it. I was at EA during the pandemic and every project immediately got their release windows pushed back to avoid any crunch

[ashen jungle]

yes this is the original use i knew it for

[wise imp]

chess also got popular because of Queen's Gambit methinks

[velvet trout]

Same

[ashen jungle]

!d typing.final

[edgy kraken]

typing.final

@typing.final```
Decorator to indicate final methods and final classes.

Decorating a method with `@final` indicates to a type checker that the method cannot be overridden in a subclass. Decorating a class with `@final` indicates that it cannot be subclassed.

For example...

[velvet trout]

Just used abc yesterday for BaseNumArgs

[craggy willow]

i think it got popular before

[swift sparrow]

pandemic + queen's gambit was HUGE for chess

there was a documentary about it

[rare gazelle]

Final goes for class variables that shouldn't be reassigned by subclasses, and they're also class variabbles

[craggy willow]

but it probably helped

[jade robin]

the only gambit i know is opening my king side bishop pawn

[rare gazelle]

a normal class variabble is ClassVar

[wise imp]

huh, I see

[ashen jungle]

what was the documentary?

[velvet trout]

I think their namespace class example lacks all details so my guess was both right and wrong.

[swift sparrow]

Untold: Chess Mates (on netflix)

[rare gazelle]

normal class variable is ClassVar, not Final

[velvet trout]

I know

[ashen jungle]

thanks

i might watch it

[swift sparrow]

It's more about rivalries, but they bring up the boom that chess saw during those times

[velvet trout]

Among us was peak back then

[wise imp]

too high!

[pallid garden]

gotta aim for the stars

[rare gazelle]

Final is not to make it non subclassable

Final is to make the variable not edittable by subbclasses

[ashen jungle]

gotcha yeah, magnus and hans. that could be interesting too

[ashen jungle]

the lowercase final is what i meant

[rare gazelle]

Final is used for class variables, not classes themselvse

i see

[ashen jungle]

i thought i was being careful with the cases but no

ty though

[rare gazelle]

np

[wise imp]

no no, aim for the moon

is the quote

[craggy willow]

is can be used for classes too

[pallid garden]

if you aim for the moon, orbital mechanics will send you somewhere else

you have to aim for where the moon will be in 4 days time

[rare gazelle]

you're final

[velvet trout]

@Final ?
Or you mean
x: Final[Foo] = Foo()?

[rare gazelle]

only 1 salt die

[silver plover]

Not if I aim with my radio waves!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth–Moon–Earth_communication

[craggy willow]

@final
class DontSubclassMe:
    ...

[silver plover]

I love that thumbnail.

[pallid garden]

THE THUMBNAIL

[wise imp]

maybe that's the real meaning behind the quote 👀
it goes so: " Aim for the moon, even if you miss, you'll land among the stars"
EDIT: shoot instead of aim?

[rare gazelle]

there's Final and there's final

[velvet trout]

You replied "is can be..." to a message which had capital F

[craggy willow]

now the word looks weird to me

i've seen it too much

[ashen jungle]

beautiful

[silver plover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation

[craggy willow]

i didn't know it had a name

cool

[ashen jungle]

^

[rare gazelle]

billy created this page right now

using chatgpt

[velvet trout]

Like... Overloading meanings for same term ?

[craggy willow]

but but https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Semantic_satiation&action=history

[silver plover]

My other favorite term is Tetris dream:

[pallid garden]

tetris effect?

[ashen jungle]

those are all billy's alts

[silver plover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Effect

I've been very busy

[rare gazelle]

he has a time machine

[pallid garden]

is there a distributed computing effect

whereby after you learn how a kube cluster works you begin to see everything in a microservices architecture

[wise imp]

that's... a game

[craggy willow]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_effect

i think this one

not the other

[rare gazelle]

i know the game

[wise imp]

oh god

[craggy willow]

honestly relatable though

[rare gazelle]

this is too iq for me not gonna lie, i dont understand nothing

so that means... i do understand something?

[ashen jungle]

yeah it does

it includes the possibility that you might understand everything

[rare gazelle]

🤔

[ashen jungle]

🙃

[rare gazelle]

perhaps i'm a genius

maybe

[craggy willow]

we're all maybe a genius

[ashen jungle]

i agree

[wise imp]

now you're just overcorrecting

[rare gazelle]

😁

[silver plover]

Very appropriate given your name

[wise imp]

where blockchain btw

blockchain, more like blockpython

!pypi pyblock 👀

[edgy kraken]

pyblock v0.6

Reblocking analysis tools for correlated data

Released on <t:1583357885:D>.

[wise imp]

this is regarding that username btw

[mighty bay]

Are indians taking my job?

[frosty oriole]

they could

[silver plover]

Do you have a job?

[halcyon fern]

yo so what module could be used for bad actors

[jade robin]

pip install actor-fixer

sad

[tame raptor]

why you doing linux shi

[halcyon fern]

!pypi cryptography

[edgy kraken]

cryptography v48.0.0

cryptography is a package which provides cryptographic recipes and primitives to Python developers.

Released on <t:1777935578:D>.

[mighty bay]

never been employed but indians want to hustle and take my future job

[tight tree]

that seems a tad racist

[halcyon fern]

they always taking our jobs at microsoft

[jade robin]

there's no linux shi here tho

[tame raptor]

aight

mb

[mighty bay]

I think I'm becoming anti immigration

[halcyon fern]

yes same

[tame raptor]

rs

[silver plover]

Let's knock off the casual racism or whatever it is.

[tame raptor]

even tho i am an immigrant

[frosty oriole]

"your future job" is not set in stone, there's no "future job" reserved just for you

[jade robin]

as long as y'all allow travelling for trips, i don't particularly mind anti immigration

[silver plover]

People in lots of countries want jobs. Don't believe you're owed anything. Work hard, be prepared, and you'll make it.

[mighty bay]

There isn't because of the indians

[tame raptor]

unc on that preaching

[jade robin]

trolling

[mighty bay]

Nope

[silver plover]

Stop. We're not doing this. It's false, and just baiting people.

[mighty bay]

alr go to #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval if you wanna discuss the truth

[silver plover]

Complaining about globalization is about 40 years too lates

[swift sparrow]

This discussion is not fit for this server at all, even in off-topic

[mighty bay]

Why?

[wise imp]

can I complain about solar-systemisation yet? /lh

[tame raptor]

if he formulates his sentences mor respectufully it is a conv for off topic

[jade robin]

allowing alien immigrants would be kinda lit

[tame raptor]

dang hes gettin banned

[hoary geode]

hi guys

[wise imp]

hi

[deep dome]

Hello!!

[raven urchin]

I don't want to keep the conversation aggressive, but that guy comes every now and then and it's just mean.

[raven urchin]

hey, how are u doing? what else did you learn?

[wise imp]

(you can DM @pseudo carbon)

[raven urchin]

Ty

[ashen cipher]

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**What reasons are you learning Python for?**

Suggest more topics here!

[ashen cipher]

yk what i dont like the topics tbh

what are yalls working on

[pallid garden]

a game

[crisp jay]

Trying to understand Haskell

[ashen cipher]

has skull

[ashen cipher]

2d or 3d?

[pallid garden]

neither

[ashen cipher]

2.5d

[pallid garden]

pokemon-showdown-esque

[ashen cipher]

ic

[crisp jay]

The syntax is hard to read 😭

[ashen cipher]

i can imagine

[sour pulsar]

Hello i am new here and just looking for a convo to start and I am working on learning basic python syntax

[raven urchin]

goated showdown 🗣️ 🔥

guys do you have a good SQLite3 resource? video format if possible

[pallid garden]

you should get used to non-video-format resources

most resources wont be video format

[raven urchin]

Well, I did SQLBolt first, which is written and interactive

[wise imp]

just chuck the non-video format to gen AI, get a video /s

[raven urchin]

AI suddenly starts talking about dolphins:

[charred tusk]

goblins*

[autumn kayak]

Yo an indian guy took my job

[brisk gazelle]

Alternative perspective: Your employer made a business decision.

[radiant kernel]

that damages the economy

and exacerbaits exploitation

assuming that this indian guy isn't a citizen

also assuming root isn't indian

[wise imp]

exacerbaits [sic!] more like ragebaits

[autumn kayak]

yup

[autumn kayak]

I'm european

that happens in europe

[autumn kayak]

he isn't

[wise imp]

!pypi mesa

[autumn kayak]

That sucks tho

[edgy kraken]

Mesa v3.5.1

Agent-based modeling (ABM) in Python

Released on <t:1773574948:D>.

[wise imp]

anyone tried this for some fun side project?

[ocean ridge]

why shouldnt he?

if an europeoan took your job would it be fine with you?

[brittle merlin]

🤣🙏

[silver plover]

!warn 1205209977052991598 We do not going to tolerate racism or ethnic divisiveness here. Review our #rules and #code-of-conduct , or you'll be removed from this server

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @autumn kayak.

[quartz knoll]

Guys what is your favourite feature in python 3.16?

[runic flower]

It looks interesting. not something I'm much familiar with. Could you for example use this to build a system of independent agents to see how they interact over time? Like could you build something like a sims simulator where each sym is either a politician with a fixed ruleset or a voter with a fixed ideology to see how the agents behave to maximize their votes?

[runic flower]

Ask me again in 2028.

[quartz knoll]

Why

[runic flower]

cause that way it will have been released for 6 months or so and I might have an idea by then.

[quartz knoll]

What

[runic flower]

3.15 will be released later this year, 3.16 will be released at the end of 2027. so ask me in 2028. 🙂

[quartz knoll]

Oh

[pallid garden]

realistically libraries will take a few months to get updated to make sure they run on 3.16

[runic flower]

"a few" might be generous. 🙂

[tight tree]

The library I'm involved with got official 3.14 support about 15 hours ago

[timber star]

Hi everyone, I’m starting from zero and my goal is to learn programming first, then move into AI and machine learning. I prefer a desktop PC. What build would you recommend for this path if I want something reliable, upgradeable, and good for the long term?

[hollow dawn]

Hello can somene help me get a god tutorial for django?

Im very confused because there are lots of ways to setup a project

some uses pipenv but doesnt work for me

[sacred cypress]

CS50 has a short course on django (cs50web), I would say rather than doing the whole course just watching the main django intro lecture would be a good learning experience as an intro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8q0C-C1js4
this lecture is kind of the meat and potatoes of it while the other ones are more generic web stuff that you might have picked up elsewhere

[hollow dawn]

whats the difference between pip install virtualenv vs (python -m venv venv) or (pip install django)

Which is a better approach?

[pallid garden]

these do different things

[hollow dawn]

oh ok2

i thought they are like different command of the same thing

[pallid garden]

pip is python's package management system

[quartz fulcrum]

can we create setter without @property decorator?

[pallid garden]

you invoke it with pip blablabla

pip install virtualenv tells pips to install virtualenv
python -m venv venv tells python to run the module venv with the parameter/argument venv
pip install django tells pip to install django

[swift sparrow]

decorators are always just a shortcut, so yes

anything you can do with a decorator you could technically do "the harder way"

[quartz fulcrum]

do i have to write the decorator by hand ??

[swift sparrow]

no, you can just call the property function and pass in your get/set

!e

class Foo:

    def __init__(self):
        self._x = 0

    def getx(self):
        return self._x

    def setx(self, value):
        self._x = value


    x = property(getx, setx)


f = Foo()
f.x = 5
print(f.x)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

5

[digital canyon]

I just want to know that ai automation engineer is good role or not?

[quartz fulcrum]

oh ok..the traditional way

[digital canyon]

Means roadmap of this field I want to know

[swift sparrow]

yes, decorators are what we call "syntactic sugar". It's just an easier way to do something that was already possible

[quartz fulcrum]

ok

[pallid garden]

there is no roadmap that definitely leads to success

this applies to literally any field

not just computing

[swift sparrow]

no one can predict the future about how the job market and industries will change

so it's hard to choose something now that will put you in the best possible position 5 years from now

[digital canyon]

Okk thanks I am just getting nervous about this opportunity whether I take or not

[pallid garden]

you are getting an offer?

[swift sparrow]

"it's a leap of faith" -miles morales

[pallid garden]

do you get paid?

[digital canyon]

Yes I got offer this in film production company

That's why I am getting confused

They want to automate internal or external studio also

[pallid garden]

it's hard to get a job now, you might as well take it (assuming you are sure that it's not a scam)

[swift sparrow]

you have a job offer but you also need a roadmap?

do you already have the skills? How did you get a job offer without the skills otherwise?

[digital canyon]

I have python skills ,and ai models also

[swift sparrow]

then what roadmap are you looking for?

have you worked in film before? Is this like a pipeline TD role?

[digital canyon]

No this is the first time in film production company

[swift sparrow]

what is the position title?

[digital canyon]

Ai automation engineer

[proud escarp]

maybe you'll be trained

[floral terrace]

Are those just fancy words for "AI prompting"

[inland karma]

good morning!

[proud escarp]

good morning eivl

[quartz fulcrum]

good morning

[digital canyon]

I don't know

[swift sparrow]

is there a role description?

[digital canyon]

Yes

[swift sparrow]

do you feel like you fit the description?

[digital canyon]

Means I have to look there internal crm also and other work right now I am doing is on n8n ,api integrations

[ocean ridge]

do you have any skills in that

[wooden tapir]

What can i do for get job

[ocean ridge]

if you dont have experience using n8n or building infra and stuff like that idk if that job is for u

[ocean ridge]

Maybe see upwork or fiverr? A friend of mine got a lot of freelance offers in upwork

[swift sparrow]

Upwork is a mega race to the bottom with insane competition. You're welcome to give it a try but it's hard out there.

[ocean ridge]

oh i dont mean posting your profile, they post a lot of job offers you can just reach out and say i can get this done like that for 4 or 5 offers and then maybe one will get accepted.

[swift sparrow]

yeah, but you have to make insanely low offers to get accepted

everyone is trying to undercut each others' prices

[ocean ridge]

my friend was a mid website developer and he got an offer for a landing page for a massage service for 800$

[bronze dragon]

when was this?

[ocean ridge]

2 or 3 months ago

[bronze dragon]

interesting

I'm kind of surprised that there are people out there who will pay $800 for a landing page especially in these times

[quartz fulcrum]

Every single item in the studio is a "Resource." Whether it’s a CPU or an SSD, all of them need to track these basic details:

Name: What it's called (e.g., "Intel Core i9").

Manufacturer: Who made it (e.g., "Nvidia", "AMD").

Total: The overall number of these parts they own in total.

Allocated: How many of these parts are currently locked up inside a PC build right now.

Category: A smart shortcut that looks at the item and automatically says its type in lowercase (like "cpu" or "sdd")```

```py
class Resource:
    def __init__(self, name, manufacturer, total_parts):
        self.name = name
        self.manufacturer = manufacturer
        self.total_parts = total_parts

    def category(self, search):
        if search == self.name:
            return self.manufacturer```

how to write last point (category)

[ocean ridge]

Just take a look at the job offers in upwork.

[swift sparrow]

it's a bit unclear from this, but it seems like category should still be a simple attribute, not a method

[bronze dragon]

I had a brief stint on Upwork a couple years ago

but yeah, maybe

it's still surprising

[quartz fulcrum]

how am i going to write it in lowercase

[bronze dragon]

that's the problem?

str.lower?

[swift sparrow]

The lowercase isn't the issue. It's unclear where it expects you to get the category from

it describing it as a "smart shortcut" likely means it won't be a parameter, but you'll have some way of knowing which category the resource is based on the other info

[bronze dragon]

is this problem prompt generated by AI?

[swift sparrow]

Wouldn't be surprised

[quartz fulcrum]

yes, but i also have an original problem which i didnt understand

[swift sparrow]

you're getting confused because AI is giving you terrible problems and information

don't use it

seriously.

you're doing so much harm to your learning

[quartz fulcrum]

which one should i refer?

but i didnt understand the project..what should i do then?

[swift sparrow]

I don't understand the project either and I'm experienced in python. The project doesn't make sense.

[bronze dragon]

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[lost lagoon]

I'm frustrated while making my school project so I asked Claude doing it for me, but it's broken allover I end up rebuilding everything from scratch tho I still use the things it generated as reference to have something to cross reference while building the thing

[swift sparrow]

Just go spend a few weeks doing codewars problems. You'll be much better off in the end.

[quartz fulcrum]

wait letme show you the project in help thread

[swift sparrow]

I don't really want anything to do with an AI generated project

[lost lagoon]

most python web framework use jinja templates??

[bronze dragon]

pick something from this list, and do it from start to finish.
don't drop it and start another resource. I recall at one point you somehow ended up on and were wasting time on a course that was about deep esoteric Python internals before you even really understood OOP. don't do something like that.

[lost lagoon]

Don't overthink the OOP part

[opal gull]

the way i use AI to code is ctrl+i (inline chat)
whenever i have to do something tedious, ill just select a block of code, ctrl+i then type "can you do this tedious thing for me kthx"

personally prefer it over agentic stuff

cuz then i still have control over the code

[granite wyvern]

It wants you to deduce the part type from what information you've got. And really there's no way to do that without a huge table of "this name is a cpu, this name is a video card" and so one. Unless you annotate every part, or write something which parses or guesses from the name, you can't do this.

[swift sparrow]

save your breath, it's an AI prompted problem

[granite wyvern]

I gather. But it's not enough to say "this doesn't make sense" we should at least point out why.

[quartz fulcrum]

https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/1506180435779129374
need help..how do i approach this project

[granite wyvern]

As mentioned: don't. It's a bit nuts.
There are only 2 approaches: annotate each part with type information, or write (something magic an unspecified) to guess the type from the name and manufacturer (i.e. the information you have).

[quartz fulcrum]

should i skip it?

[granite wyvern]

Fash and I think so. AI hallucinates, and that means it can generate nonsense.

[quartz fulcrum]

but the pics i have is not ai generated

[granite wyvern]

Whihc bit was AI generated?

[quartz fulcrum]

its the actual project from the course

[granite wyvern]

Oh. Hmm.

[quartz fulcrum]

the text written down

[granite wyvern]

Which course.

[quartz fulcrum]

oop

[prime mountain]

Could you link the course here?

[quartz fulcrum]

udemy.com/course/python-3-deep-dive-part-4/

[granite wyvern]

Oh, it's this bit:

It sounds like you're making a subclass for each resource type (HDD etc?)
Then you want tthe name of the class, lowercased.
You've got self, the instance.
The class is either type(self) or self.__class__ - these are the same thing.
And the name is the .__name__ attribute of the class.
And you want the lowercase of that.

Write that expression and return it.

Sounds like it's a 1 line @property method.

[quartz fulcrum]

how am i going to write it

[granite wyvern]

Written a property before?

[quartz fulcrum]

yes

@property
def category(self):
  self.__class__.__name__.lower()```

[granite wyvern]

Ok, this is a property.
You can basicly derive this from the spec:
"computed property that returns a lower case version of the class name"

So "computed property" means:

@property
def category(self):

What's the class name of self? (See above.)
Once you've got that, how would you get the lower case version?

[granite wyvern]

Yes, this, exactly.

Oh, with a return

[quartz fulcrum]

__class__ tell which class self holds and name turns it into string right?

[granite wyvern]

So it would be:

@property
def category(self):
  return self.__class__.__name__.lower()

Yes, .__name__ is a string.

[quartz fulcrum]

will self.__name__.lower()
work?

[granite wyvern]

No. 🙂
I know with a normal instance .foo finds .foo on the class (if it's not direct;y on the instance itself). Doesn't seem to happen for .__name__. So you need self.__class__.__name__

I'd need to dig into exactly why, not sure.

Possibly classes special case some attributes if they're not on the instance itslf.

Or type(self).__name__, same thing.

[quartz fulcrum]

okay

[granite wyvern]

As it turns out, not an AI generated problem.

[quartz fulcrum]

i should give it a try....if i stuck i will ask for help here

[swift sparrow]

the AI explanation missed the mark about what was actually being asked though

[granite wyvern]

But leaving aside whether self.__name__ would work, it's usually best to write exactly what you mean. So self.__class__.__name__ because you want the name of the class. So get the class.

[inland karma]

name identify types, functions, modules, classes, and not specific objects

same as qualiffied name, only that is for the dotted name path

[granite wyvern]

I know what its for, I meant the mechanism

[mighty steppe]

hi

[inland karma]

oh right.. whenever you have some custom lookup of a thing, it is always a descriptor

im not sure how the name lookup is actually implemented though.

[haughty crane]

how do you start learning networking

[opal gull]

networking as in linkedin? or routers and stuff

[ocean ridge]

um i started by learning different type of protocols. then learnt http req types, headers and all that

[inland karma]

implement http 1.1 from scratch using python

[haughty crane]

yeah like routers and servers and linux

[haughty crane]

did you use a book or what resource?

[granite wyvern]

Do some low level socket stuff. A pair of UDP sockets, send packets between. A TCP server and client socket, send data between.
Learn the basics of IPv4 addressing and routing (really just: network part, local part, gateway is enough to get going); IPv6 is a topic for later.

Search for "python socket tutorial" or look for a networking or sockets tutorial in the resources.

!res

[edgy kraken]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[granite wyvern]

Don't be rude 🙂 That's ... quite a lot. I went there once, unfinished. Someone here did an HTTP 1.1 impl recently ISTR.

[inland karma]

not meant that way,.. yeah it is a lot for sure

[granite wyvern]

Sorry, that was hyperbole - I knew you weren't actually being rude 🙂

[haughty crane]

yeah sounds tough 😓

[haughty crane]

sounds good, thanks for the help all!

[velvet trout]

Hi chat

[ocean ridge]

i self learnt

[steep elk]

I used python to find the value for which cos(x)= x
0.739085133

Is it correct

[pallid garden]

yes

[granite wyvern]

!e

from math import cos
x = 0.739085133
print(x, cos(x))

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

0.739085133 0.7390851333600954

[granite wyvern]

This is the kind of question you can answer for yourself 🙂

[steep elk]

Sorry

[steep elk]

Thanks

[steep elk]

Thanks

[granite wyvern]

No need to apologise. But pointing out that you can test this kind of question!

[steep elk]

I realised that you can run a loop that takes Cosine of any no till a certain time

[granite wyvern]

That works. A bisection might be faster.

[steep elk]

Bisecton?

[arctic plank]

Hi

[steep elk]

Hello

Is it related to Calculus

[arctic plank]

How u doing

[steep elk]

We've not yet been taught

[granite wyvern]

Take two values either side of the target A nd B. Get cos(x) half way between each value "mid". See which side is closer. Use (A,mid) or (mid,B) as the pair next time. Repeat.

[steep elk]

Newton's method?

[granite wyvern]

Bisection is just a search technique where you pick a place half way between the bounds you have and decide which bound to discard in favour of the midpoint. Haves the search space every time. Repeat until you're close enough or you find exactly what you're after.

[granite wyvern]

It's been too long.

[steep elk]

Ok I'll write a program

[granite wyvern]

Meaning I can't remember how Newton's method works any more 🙁

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_method

[bright mauve]

mind that bisection will only work in intervals where the function is monotone though

[bright mauve]

hmm you can replace that with simply having positive and negative values if your function is continuous

[teal ember]

decided to make a clicker game because i am bored and will try to learn how to make one as i make it

[stable kraken]

what yall think about ai coding stuff

[slender urchin]

it can be a useful tool when used responsibly

[bright mauve]

don't ai and drive

[stable kraken]

i was talking about the ai replacing coders thingy]

[wise yarrow]

for this problem specifically because cosine is nice you can just start with any value and apply cos a few times and it'll converge to the fixed point

[pallid garden]

wait what

[wise yarrow]

relevant theorem is the banach fixed point theorem

!e

from math import cos
x = 0
for _ in range(30):
    x = cos(x)
print(x)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

0.7390822985224024

[pallid garden]

oh wow, interesting

[hallow umbra]

If all goes well, I will go to master's admission in one of popular technical universities of Kyiv. The preparation is on the way to be done ✅

[slender urchin]

Good luck :3

[hallow umbra]

💜

[dry pike]

banach of banach-tarski paradox?

which is weird because I don't remember what the banach-tarski paradox is, just the name of it...

[wise yarrow]

yeah same guy

[stable kraken]

will i get crucified if i talk about c++ here

[jade robin]

TIL they have a paradox but i know tarski has a fixed point theorem too

[wise yarrow]

banach tarski is the one where you can turn one ball into two balls

[jade robin]

oh

[gleaming knoll]

unless you spam "python is slow c++ is fast" then not really, at most you'll be asked to move to #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[jade robin]

python is slow c++ is fast

[stable kraken]

thats true tho

[craggy willow]

no u

[granite wyvern]

TIL, thx.

[dry pike]

python is fast, c++ slow

[stable kraken]

python is fast, c++ slow

[golden mortar]

python is c++, fast is slow

[craggy willow]

!e whats it called when you iterate over n functions alternating and get n fixed points

from math import cos, sin, sqrt

def f(*funcs):
    n = len(funcs)
    x = 0
    for i in range(n * 100):
        x = funcs[i % n](x)
    for i in range(2 * n):
        x = funcs[i % n](x)
        print(x)

f(cos, sin, sqrt)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | 0.6961411774944359
002 | 0.6412615079574365
003 | 0.8007880543298811
004 | 0.6961411774944357
005 | 0.6412615079574363
006 | 0.8007880543298809

[teal ember]

honestly making a clicker game is fun

[slender urchin]

i love playing them

but it's been a while since i tried one

[median pine]

C++ is , slow fast python

[white knot]

hi

[craggy trench]

this is what shallow searching has brought me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iterated_function_system
there's also something called a contraction mapping apparently, but i don't know what any of these terms really mean

[unreal vigil]

making games you want to play is fun probably, as a hobby

[craggy willow]

its just fixed point theorem on some function like f(x) = sqrt(sin(cos(x))), i was just being silly

from the discussion above

[craggy trench]

oh

well i learned something today

[prime mountain]

Where may I request the moderators to reopen a thread that was closed due to inactivity?

[craggy willow]

a help thread?

they can't reopen it, but you can open a new one

[prime mountain]

Yes. I was unable to do what I was adviced to do the day before and yesterday due to personal issues

[autumn forge]

you could link to your old help thread in a new one

[prime mountain]

Okay

[velvet trout]

argparse supports prefix matching for option/command names as long as the prefix is unambiguous.

Example:
--ver -> --version
--ini -> --initialize
con -> connect

If multiple matches exist, it throws an error and lists possible candidates.

Do you use this behavior in CLIs?
Do you like it, or prefer strict full-name matching instead?

[bronze dragon]

I'm not a fan of this being done automatically, tbh. you can have aliases but they should be explicitly defined.
The only CLI tool I can recall immediately which does this is ip (e.g. ip a maps to ip addr (even though there are other commands which start with a))

[velvet trout]

I see. thanks for your reply.

[bronze dragon]

For one thing, this behavior means that simply adding new options can break old scripts.

[velvet trout]

Oh yeah, that's a potential bug awaiting to happen on new names being added

i will drop adding support for this

[wise yarrow]

I would prefer for some form of completions support instead

[velvet trout]

Agreed, that would be helpful

[slow rivet]

explicit alias are a good feature, especially short forms -r for --run etc

[velvet trout]

real

[devout scaffold]

can i ragebaiting by posting C++

[opal gull]

you can try

[fiery yarrow]

...in one of the off-topic channels

[opal gull]

but what if its python-related C++ code

or c++-related python code

🤔

[velvet trout]

Ragebait C++ by posting Python

Imagine writing 6 lines of code in C++ just to print Hello World when its 1 line of code in Python.

6 lines of code, that too without readability & quick understanding without prior knowledge lol, where someone new can literally read and tell it

[gleaming knoll]

#include <stdio.h>
int main() {puts("Hello, World!");}

[velvet trout]

you have to do those tricks to make it less lines of code, whereas, in this case of hello world program, Python's default flow results into 1 line of code. You don't even need such tricks.

And those tricks make it less readable and no one likes that format, whereas Python's readability++

[celest osprey]

not really a trick tho

[velvet trout]

Honestly, if Python was named readability++, i wouldn't have minded.

[velvet trout]

I mean, whatever that is called.

[gleaming knoll]

people really often need to write a hello world program so the overhead of writing an entrypoint function is so big
very real

[velvet trout]

what's even puts()? the s stands string? first impression would make me think 'the “s” marks the third-person singular present tense.'
print makes much more sense to me.

[gleaming knoll]

[out]put s(tring)

[velvet trout]

If you're coming from english

[velvet trout]

Even worse lol

[bronze dragon]

you can think of puts/gets as counterparts

[velvet trout]

Look at this

print("Hello, world!")

Even a baby can read and tell what this will do

[opal gull]

#if 0
x="""
#endif
#include <iostream>
int main(){std::cout<<"Hello, world!"<<std::endl;}
#if 0
"""
print("Hello, world!")
#endif

same code prints hello world in both C++ and Python

[edgy kraken]

Hey @opal gull!

Please edit your message to use a code block

Add a py after the three backticks.

```py
print('Hello, world!')
```

This will result in the following:

print('Hello, world!')```

[bronze dragon]

although the C standard library has never been that great at function naming

[opal gull]

what are you talking about bot

[velvet trout]

Code language missing?

[opal gull]

no because it's both C++ and Python

idk what language to put

[velvet trout]

CPy++

cpp

C python plus

idk

[gleaming knoll]

gets literally removed from c11

[chrome isle]

I'd argue that readability is subjective. Is python more readable because it uses less symbols? And even if something is readable, is it understandable? What about everything that Python abstracts away? C-languages and Python are languages designed for different goals. And I imagine people who work at very low levels prefer a bit more verbosity in exchange for more control

[velvet trout]

print("Hello, world!") — still reads better, much english, less encrypted / scary. Even comers can make a quick guess as to what this will do.

[bronze dragon]

ah, right
fgets still exists though

[velvet trout]

fgets? formatted get string?

[gleaming knoll]

the f stands for file, you provide the file to get the string from as the first argument

[velvet trout]

fgets reminds me fget from property

[gleaming knoll]

im trying to make firefox reload userContent.css that has local file imports on changes and im close to git comitting sudoku

[bronze dragon]

the includes and main function don't really "cost" a lot of readability when considered over nontrivial programs

[gleaming knoll]

i got to the point of styling websites with pywal colors

[velvet trout]

its just names, rest is scary and not understandable to a newcomer.

[gleaming knoll]

because i hate when things arent consistently colored

[velvet trout]

and even in that, puts()

and whatnot abbreviations

you just can't beat the elegance of Python's

Lol

[opal gull]

what about Go

[autumn forge]

readable? For sure: echo 'main(){ puts("Hello, World"); }' | clang -include stdio.h -std=c89 -x c - && ./a.out

[velvet trout]

No matter what you do, bring Rust, bring Nim, you just can't. Can't replace Python.

[autumn forge]

I must defend puts() because that's what Ruby calls it

[gleaming knoll]

lets goo c89 implicit int types

[velvet trout]

show this and a newcomer will consider you a hacker

They see terminal and goes HACKERRRRR

[velvet trout]

Naming convention makes me discard it

[opal gull]

i think i just have stockholm syndrome

but i believe its fine

[velvet trout]

lol

[bronze dragon]

hmmm
can an extension force the reload of userContent.css?

[gleaming knoll]

do people in stockholm still call it stockholm syndrome

[velvet trout]

Now you have more code/words than originally you had in a .cpp file.

[opal gull]

why wouldnt they

[velvet trout]

and now look at this.

python -c 'print("Hello, world!")'

Yet concise, yet readable, yet elegant.

Ok there's an issue

I don't usually use -c tbh

[opal gull]

look at this
echo Hello, world!

bash is even more readable, elegant, and concise

[slender urchin]

I would not call bash elegant

[velvet trout]

Fixed

[velvet trout]

[velvet trout]

Any words? Compare this to your .cpp code or cli way

[bronze dragon]

https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello is the most concise and elegant (on this metric)

[gleaming knoll]

[lambda] (include) (14:29:00) clang-repl $'#include <stdio.h>\nputs("Hello, World!");'
Hello, World!

[velvet trout]

\n

[gleaming knoll]

the 1 line for the include is such a big problem in real cases
very important for the world

[opal gull]

arguable, i wouldnt know what h does

[velvet trout]

its still unreadable, \nputs looks awful and seems like someone's cursing you

[autumn forge]

I'm glad they provide a scratch interpreter

[gleaming knoll]

the case where the existance of stdout doesnt make sense is not important
because C is, as we all know, not used for embedded development
so printing should totally be builtin, not in a stdlib
/sarcasm

[slow rivet]

and even ignore that, how many real programs actually use stdout and stdin directly

[bright mauve]

c, the quintessential outbedded development language

[velvet trout]

This is way readable, less words and quickly understandable, whereas that c++ one still looks obscured and not understandable and not english-ish. No space, ugly \n, horrible $'# starting words.

Even cli version of python looks straightforward and readbale

[bronze dragon]

just ragebaiting atp

[velvet trout]

finally someone understood

[velvet trout]

.

[gleaming knoll]

all people who ragebait should be banned

[velvet trout]

Y'all fell for it 😔

[gleaming knoll]

until this word was a thing people did it much less
nowadays its more often than genuine messages

[velvet trout]

[slender urchin]

Word of the year!

[bronze dragon]

is that so? trolling has been part of the internet forever

[gleaming knoll]

i sitll cant hot reload usercontent.css imports

[slow rivet]

such simple

(pg:=__import__("pygame"),__import__("pygame.locals"),ri:=__import__("random").randint,sc:=pg.display.set_mode((600, 600)),cl:=pg.time.Clock(),sp:=pg.Vector2(10,10),sb:=[],di:=pg.Vector2(10,0),nf:=lambda:globals().update(fo=pg.Vector2(ri(0,59)*10,ri(0,59)*10)),nf(),[(sb.append(pg.Vector2(sp)),sb.pop(0),sp.__iadd__(di),(sb.clear(),sp.update(10,10))if(sp in sb or not(0<=sp.x<=600and 0<=sp.y<=600))else None,(sb.insert(0,pg.Vector2(-10,-10)),nf())if sp==fo else None,sc.fill((0,0,0)),pg.draw.rect(sc,(255,0,0),(fo.x,fo.y,10,10)),pg.draw.rect(sc,(255,255,255),(sp.x,sp.y,10,10)),[pg.draw.rect(sc,(255,255,255),(p.x,p.y,10,10))for p in sb],[((1/0)if ev.type==pg.locals.QUIT else di.update({pg.locals.K_w:(0,-10),pg.locals.K_s:(0,10),pg.locals.K_a:(-10,0),pg.locals.K_d:(10,0)}.get(ev.key,di))if ev.type==pg.locals.KEYDOWN else None)for ev in pg.event.get()],pg.display.update(),cl.tick(10),)for _ in iter(int,1)])

[gleaming knoll]

fuck modern browsers i DONT CARE about seucirty

[velvet trout]

Why would i be banned, it was all on-topic and i preached Python and its elegance with well-versed arguments

[bronze dragon]

people are way more comfortable admitting to "ragebaiting" than "trolling" though

[autumn forge]

it is actually two words: rage bait

[bronze dragon]

@gleaming knoll consider forking Stylus and using native messaging to let it load/reload files from disk

[crystal burrow]

Print (“Hello World”)

[velvet trout]

The ragebaiting is already finished bro, you're late

[gleaming knoll]

what im currently doing is a fx-autoconfig JS/ script using the browser stylesheet service to reload it but it doesnt seem to work
i will likely need more than just css later for websites with random class names

[slender urchin]

immediatly jump to tailwind

[bronze dragon]

lambda about to reinvent Dark Reader

[turbid sigil]

where did you guys learn about frontend dev? I find more and more I need to know it, for both personal projects, and figuring out the interfaces/front end logic of applications I am programming with.

[slender urchin]

Started with school and then learned more at work

[gleaming knoll]

ok it works now
i just vibecoded the reload script

[turbid sigil]

nice

[gleaming knoll]

amazing

[slow rivet]

mainly just the docs of my choichen frontend framework and mdn

[gleaming knoll]

choichen? = chosen?

[slender urchin]

mdn is great

[turbid sigil]

what is choichen? lol

[slow rivet]

me spell good

[gleaming knoll]

is viv using voice input
with a heavy norvegian accent

[bronze dragon]

"choice in"?

[turbid sigil]

I have used mdn before to learn html. It was enjoyable

[slow rivet]

✨ dyslexia ✨

[turbid sigil]

then I tried to parse through a webpage, to do web scraping, and it was div hell

[gleaming knoll]

i wonder how dyslexia works on keyboard text input
like surely its some different brain part than reading

[turbid sigil]

the whole mdn course was like "be semantic when making your HTML web pages", then its a nonsemantic mess outside of it

[slow rivet]

sure its different from reading, but its related, and dyslexia is for both reading and writing

[slender urchin]

I wonder how dyslexia would work with a brain interface chip.

[slow rivet]

or can be is more correct to say, it varies between people

I dont have much issues with reading, for me its mostly spelling

[turbid sigil]

I understand though, why that is the case, cause I've heard from others people used to automatically generate HTML documents from some sort of automated language thing they had. I forgot the name they gave it, it was a few months ago.

[gleaming knoll]

this is awesome
i can edit my .css overrides in neovim and it autoreloads
its time to make uhh
discord and github css overrides
i hope they dont have shitty css class names that change each time

[jagged belfry]

: )

[smoky cedar]

is there anyone at the age of 15 who is interested to deep dive into the field of artificial intelligence and data algorithms? I need a group of ppl to spend my time with about computer vision, robotics, etc.

[turbid sigil]

anything for the "big picture" of front end dev?

[turbid sigil]

why 15?

[smoky cedar]

ok, any age

[quasi umbra]

hey

[quasi umbra]

sure

anybody here knows hwo to use cheat engine?

or make a good ui, i wanna learn

[slow rivet]

well the ecosystem is kinda fragmented, so the shared stuff is mainly html and css, and then js/ts. and most stuff beyond that you are getting into framework specifics

[turbid sigil]

mmm, I see

[slender urchin]

We don't do cheating here

[quasi umbra]

singleplayer games?

[steel whale]

I only use it for geometry dash speedhacks

[quasi umbra]

you know how to use pymem?

[steel whale]

no never dealt with it

[slow rivet]

there also various related topics like accessibility and web design, which depending on your goal your might or might not want to also get into after learning the basics.

[quasi umbra]

how do u make sp cheats then

[turbid sigil]

I've noticed that when people talk about "front end", they only talk about it in the case of web applications. Our group for senior project transitioned from a web based application to an EXE running on our device. Is there any differences that go into that?

[slow rivet]

like in big companies the people designing the page arent the people implementating it, but for hobby projects you will be doing both, etc

[steel whale]

probablee ja

[turbid sigil]

absolutely

[steel whale]

what are sp cheats

[pastel sluice]

many desktop apps now use a web UI, so there's more overlap there than it might seem

[quasi umbra]

single player

[pastel sluice]

the Discord client, for instance, is one such app

[turbid sigil]

mmm, ok

[slow rivet]

ah actually fair point, frontend can mean non web, tho usually without a qualifier people assume web.
it depends, theres electron and friends which basically just package your website as a native app, but then there are also antive specific stuff like which can be pretty different

[steel whale]

you hook into the process's memory and you modify it, same thing for most if not all games

[slow rivet]

I personally find immediate mode frameworks really neat

[gleaming knoll]

since i vibecoded the reload with deepseek, i decided to also style it first
it seems to have consistent (although not human-written) class-names so it wasnt that hard
#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval message

[quasi umbra]

and how

[turbid sigil]

uhh, other than hobbist, what would be the most common in a professional environment?

hobbiest? hobbist?

idk lol

[slow rivet]

well most stuff is web these days, and I think react is still the main goto. tho I tbh i havent looked at the numbers in a while

[turbid sigil]

👍

[gleaming knoll]

i wonder how hard would it be to change the theme of codeblocks that it outputs though
to match my neovim theme

[steel whale]

do your research

[turbid sigil]

sorry for going off topic. Thank you all for your patience

[quasi umbra]

alr

[velvet trout]

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**What is your process when you decide to start a project in Python?**

Suggest more topics here!

[velvet trout]

"is this thing even possible to be implemented by me or should i give up already."

[pastel sluice]

Figure out the data design, as everything else stems from that. Then look for suitable third party libraries to aid with the project.

[bright mauve]

grab a notebook and doodle

[turbid sigil]

develop use cases, diagram a dummy system, then program from requirements.

[smoky cedar]

@quasi umbra

[turbid sigil]

uhh, also system sequence diagrams, and domain models

those help a lot

[quasi umbra]

mhm

[smoky cedar]

you okay with it?

[bronze dragon]

pick a small component of it that's easy to iterate and test on, and try implementing that

[quasi umbra]

ye

[turbid sigil]

has anyone here done "behavioral driven development"?

I've been curious as to what its like.

I know its typically a ruby thing, but pytest has their own module for it

[last ginkgo]

Use claude and repeat.

[bright mauve]

me when i exterminate 10% of all marine life by spending 10 trillion tokens and 5 hours on claude code

[last ginkgo]

Ye

Vibecode and Repeat.

[native coyote]

Yo quick question, geenrally speaking if you are tryna learn some new python concpets how long should you struggle doing it alone with the notes alone before using AI or getting help from somone. To maximize learning

[brisk gazelle]

Avoid AI. Ask us.

[bright mauve]

the more you struggle with it, the more it sticks tbh

[brisk gazelle]

!beginner

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[brisk gazelle]

Consult documentation.

[native coyote]

Okay

so instead of asking gemini for hints I should look at the offical python documentation and try to figure it out from there

[golden mortar]

Give it an honest go first. Then ask for help. I don't think it's helpful to just bang your head against a wall forever. And it's demoralizing too. But don't give up too quickly either.

[native coyote]

ok

[golden mortar]

You can use the official docs, but a lot of the time I think it's just as helpful or more to use 3rd party sources like tutorials, blogs, forums or this server.

[native coyote]

this is actually quite useful I saved it

[native coyote]

okay

[bright mauve]

feeling uncomfortable and dumb is the first step and natural response to being exposed to something new, so it always happens when you start learning something

[bronze dragon]

what are you struggling with?

[pastel sluice]

if you're struggling, ask someone here, we are only too happy to help clear things up. AI is superficially useful but can be subtly wrong in ways that harm more than they help

[bronze dragon]

in general it is valuable to get used to reading technical writing, but it's also OK to ask for help in understanding it, especially at the beginner stage. use help (preferably here over AI) as a supplement to reading the docs, instead of as a replacement for it.

[native coyote]

not anything right now, I was struggling for a while before but then I gave up and asked AI

[native coyote]

👍

[wise imp]

idk 😭 I asked to find out what people have used it for, lol

[brittle merlin]

Wordle 1795 2/6

🟩⬜🟨⬜🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

I'm so dope boy

[craggy trench]

pydsn wordle

[hexed grotto]

can someone explain for me arrays and linked lists

[cerulean ravine]

https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/1502034571401887959

[brisk gazelle]

"Array" is a nebulous concept with multiple definitions depending on the specific inplementation. It can mean a two dimensional grid of data, a one dimensional sequence of entries, a 3D grid, the elemenrs if all these may be restricted by type or be more abitrary, they may hold references to other objects rather thsn the data itself, etc...so arrays, yeah...which array from what?

As to (singly) linked lists, they are a data structure...think of them as a collection of nodes with two slots each, one slot for arbitrary data, and the other slot about where to find the next node in the sequence.

Doubly linked lists have three slots, data, next node, previous node

[hexed grotto]

like dictionary

[tame hinge]

BDD is just TDD with a behavioral flavor. I.e. testing the code or system while saying nothing about how it works internally. DSLs like gherkin let you specify behavior in English and implement the steps separately. You don't need anything special to do bdd and what you typically see it associated with is acceptance test driven development. You should check out the original article by Dan North who came up with it if you want actual context. I.e. tests stop being thought of as tests, they become specifications and they're written first.

https://dannorth.net/blog/introducing-bdd/

[brisk gazelle]

Not quite. Dictionaries are a different concept again. Dictionaries are a collection of items, each item comprised of a key which associates to a value. If we want a given value we say "Hey, dictionary, here's a key, what value does that key associate to?"

[jade robin]

Binary Descision Diagrams

[hexed grotto]

ooooh thank you for your time

[tacit frigate]

hi

[charred tusk]

So.... integration tests?

[tame hinge]

The BDD commonly seen as associated with gherkin is acceptance test driven development with a behavioral focus which can also be applied to unit tests with a simple sentence scheme and not testing implementation detail, i.e. specifying how you want a function or class to behave. And by acceptance test I mean end to end test. It's the same scheme/mindset and it can apply to any tests.

The important part about doing it for acceptance tests though is that non technical people can read them and say you've got the right idea, or the wrong one.

[rotund moon]

as an as

[brisk gazelle]

Whatever happened to the Ghurkult?

[charred tusk]

They're still alive

[brisk gazelle]

Hm.

[charred tusk]

... maybe
I can't find them in my server list

Found them

[cerulean ravine]

the counterpoint to the promise of BDD is that it's actually difficult to provide an interface for non-technical people to expess what should happen, and that interface requires an entire layer of code which itself can have bugs.

[silver plover]

This is more or less how I work. End to end tests are more important than unit tests, at least for the type of stuff I do (or at least, in my opinion)

Altho, I'm not sure about the word "behavior" here, so maybe I'm misunderstanding their intent

(oh, reading article, not what I thought they were saying)

[glad egret]

Since near its inception, I have never really seen a non technical person write at least the human readable part of a bdd test. Which is kind of a shame because it was a noble goal 🙁

[tame hinge]

It's a behavior like when you add a positive number and a negative number you end up with less or something, i.e. into an add function, not that this is a realistic example.

With acceptance tests it's like a list of steps, a scenario of using the system end to end, like you enter an invalid credit card and you see an error. Basically behavior, test behavior not implementation detail, or specify it.

[tame hinge]

Or in other words, the behavior is what something should do.

[tame hinge]

I think they're all important but practically speaking I think you can't deem your application still ready for release or not broken without end to end, so in my case I'm writing them anyway, and in some cases it would be way more desirable and result in less complicated code to only write end to end.

[turbid sigil]

I see. I have seen the cucumber book online, and did a little bit of reading there, but didn't know there was an article like this. Thanks.

[glad egret]

I know a few of the original OG BDD people and some have stopped writing quite so many integration tests. They are slow, can be insanely hard to debug, and require a pretty complicated test harness setup. Instead they focus on enforcing contracts between methods and system components and write a lot of unit tests.

The idea of a the testing triangle suggests that there should only be few integration tests in comparison to unittests.

[turbid sigil]

I would assume the non technical part of bdd is textual use cases, no?

[glad egret]

Yea the gherkin.

I popped in kind of 1/2 way into the conversation, but for context

BDD usually implies mapping a bunch of scenarios in a Gherkin like syntax

  Scenario: successful login:
    Given the user is on the login page
    When the user enters "username" and "password"
    Then the user should be redirected to the dashboard page.```

to a set of functions that can really run anything.  Some of those functions will contain an expectations like a normal unit test.  

One of the original ideas is since we had broken describing the test and implementing the test we could get non-programers involved in helping us write them

[turbid sigil]

ok

[prime mountain]

I read through the chapter 12 of ATBS but he didn't tell how the shell script works. Just told to copy paste the code below

[glad egret]

But philosophically you could write BDD test in a tool like the stdlib unittest, as long as you are describing and testing behavior only the end user can see

[tame hinge]

You don't need gherkin for it though. You can write similar stuff in your programming language and drop the given when then. Also, end to end tests aren't necessarily slow or hard to setup, there's ways to design the system where you use the natural functions of the system to isolate data, just randomizing emails. The LMAX exchange does BDD with an internal dsl and has 10000+ end to end tests and push back against the idea that they're slow or cumbersome.
https://www.symphonious.net/2015/04/30/making-end-to-end-tests-work/

[turbid sigil]

I see. ok. That makes sense.

[tame hinge]

This is what is advocated for by Dave Farley nowadays and I've also done that for both the technical benefits, and to clarify requirements on another project. I've written an acceptance test then had it reviewed to make sure it is for what we're supposed to be building because it wasn't clear by the code/state the project is in.

[glad egret]

Totally, see the next comment :), but like devops means a specific set of tools to some people BDD has similar connotations to tool sets.

[charred tusk]

I was summoned by mention of devops

[turbid sigil]

The cult of observability welcomes you

[charred tusk]

Oh no
I made a legacy branch of my application
And now I have to backport PRs
IDK how to do this 🙈

[turbid sigil]

Okay. I'll take some time to look at it. Right now, I was reading a TDD book, and its a bit to handle for myself, so It'll be a second before I really engage with BDD apart from the concepts shared here today. It is very helpful reading waht you all shared

[glad egret]

One of the things that I kind of miss from writing BDD test were 1st class support for data tables. I even played around with making datatable helpers for unittest haha (p.s. I dont think its a good idea in th long run) https://gist.github.com/MattyO/f915cf8d57c2f6559348f678ed716b89

[golden mortar]

I think too many unit tests can be problematic too. They kind of coagulate your implementation details and make refactoring more time-consuming, since you end up having to rewrite a bunch of test code.

e2e black box tests don't quite have the same issue

[turbid sigil]

btw, I know we glossed over this, but was it a BASH script, or a python script?

[glad egret]

One of the things the BDD community realized pretty early was that combining the normal Cucumber stack with a page object pattern greatly reduced the number of expletives you shouted at your computer. With just a page object to help writing integration tests with your regular old unittesting library is waaaay easier and they look quite close to the older original BDD toolsets.

[tame hinge]

I just use an abstraction layer for interacting with the system/asserting stuff and the unittest module. Can make up the methods as needed and then use that as a specification for what needs to be implemented/wire it up later.

[glad egret]

I'm a super fan of the ago old idea of listening to your tests. A test that is hard to write is telling you something about the architecture of the implementation. Its more likely something should change in your implementation than your testing tools. But those skills are hard won, as programmers normally are given a system that has had a long life and story before we showed up, and have limited ability to change it.

[golden mortar]

Agreed.

[turbid sigil]

man, just reading about the "page object pattern" is quite the humbling realization my understanding of the depth of patterns is shallow.

other than the GoF patterns, I mean.

[tame hinge]

I think that some types of tests are more brittle than others and not a good idea to write. For example, the contract style testing you said these people use instead are the kind where you assert interactions between interfaces happen, that's brittle and doesn't give confidence in the code I don't think, a counter example to this is take the Repository pattern, if you have a layer of code that relies on repositories to load stuff, save stuff and function, you can use an in memory version and just test that code like you have a real system, but in memory, it's less tied to brittle and specific interactions.

[tame hinge]

Here's an example of a real test I threw together for testing keyboard input, this is from an experiment to figure out how to test it in general, and the application being tested is basically a keylogger because I wanted something simple to assert.

class TestAlphabetLogging(LineRecorderAcceptanceTestCase):
    def test_should_record_lines_of_strictly_alphabetical_characters(self):
        self._keyboard.press_and_release_character("a")
        self._keyboard.press_and_release_character("b")
        self._keyboard.press_and_release_character("c")
        self._keyboard.press_and_release_enter()
        self._line_log.assert_line_in_log("abcd")

[gleaming knoll]

how did d end up here

[glad egret]

It doesn't have to be complicated. A class defines a page, and and function defines a action you can do on that page. You can do it with regular old classes and 'just'(haha) refactor the different bits that are already doing itegration actions into the right place. The pattern is more about putting friendly/related code next to each other

[fresh pawn]

Hi guys i am yamen recently I launched my first app on Google play it call "taskflow " please guys can u download it

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jo.taskflow.app

[turbid sigil]

I see. I got the idea from the fowler article he has on the pattern.

[fresh pawn]

This is the link

[turbid sigil]

though the way you talk about it is a little different

its very nice to hear extensions of good programming advice, is what I mean lol

[fresh pawn]

......

😭

[turbid sigil]

we understand you have a project. This is not the correct channel for it. We have a dedicated #1468524576479641744 channel, where you can post your work.

[bronze dragon]

hi. sorry, but this isn't really the place to advertise your app.

[golden mortar]

!rule ad

[edgy kraken]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[bronze dragon]

if it is written in Python and open-source, you can talk about it in #1468524576479641744

[fresh pawn]

Sorry

[golden mortar]

You still can't post a google play link and ask for downloads. You'd have to post your code.

[turbid sigil]

understood. Sorry for talking about things I am not well versed in.

[golden mortar]

It's alright, I'm just clarifying.

[turbid sigil]

👍

[fresh pawn]

Well, do any of you know where I can post
my app?

[terse mauve]

is it open source? written in python?

[ashen jungle]

sorry i'm replying a day late lol i had to leave quickly

[turbid sigil]

but no, I have to go do some DSA prep for a virtual interview I am having soon. It was wonderful talking @glad egret @tame hinge @golden mortar . I will absolute have to ask you some questions about good design and patterns in the future, if that is fine with you @glad egret 😁

[ashen jungle]

i'll take that as a compliment though :p

[fresh pawn]

No it is by react native

[prime mountain]

Bash I believe. Starting with #! ?

[ashen jungle]

@silver plover

[terse mauve]

written in python?

[fresh pawn]

No

[terse mauve]

no, a shebang is to tell thr linux os which binary to use to run the file

[terse mauve]

google adsense

[prime mountain]

So it's not a bash script?

[runic flower]

You know this is a python discussion channel on a python server?

[turbid sigil]

I was recommended a cloud system tutorial, and it had a page on bash scripting. I also did some stuff about it as well for my college coursework. This is the link to the free article from the cloud tutorial:
https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/bash-scripting-tutorial-linux-shell-script-and-command-line-for-beginners/

[terse mauve]

Not limited to bash

[prime mountain]

Oh

[ashen jungle]

@prime mountain it depends what comes after the shebang

[prime mountain]

Oh

[terse mauve]

you could have:

#!/bin/bash
#!/bin/env bash
#!/bin/perl

etc etc

[prime mountain]

Where do I learn more about this?

[ashen jungle]

possibly here

[terse mauve]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebang_(Unix)

[prime mountain]

#!/usr/bin/env bash source /home/atreus/Scripts/.venv/bin/activate python3 /home/atreus/Scripts/ccwd.py deactivate

[terse mauve]

why not have a shenag in your python acript that targets the venv's python directly?

[gleaming knoll]

ok i can see why people go for nixos

[harsh swallow]

Python scripts can still have shebangs. Or any scripts.
Any text file can be set to be executable - and then shebang is checked to know what program is used to run it. Be it python, bash, another shell, or something completely different altogether.

[terse mauve]

:)

[gleaming knoll]

the imperative configuration spaghetti is accumulating
and its spilling out of the bowl

[prime mountain]

I don't know about how it works. I just did what the book told me to do 😭

[terse mauve]

which book told you to do that?

[prime mountain]

Automate the boring stuff

internet edition

[rugged barn]

Nix is incredibly cool and useful

But by God managing the dotfiles become a chore

[harsh swallow]

Author of Automate the Boring Stuff did this 😢 I helped OP before in #1035199133436354600 but had to go afk so I didn't show how to properly do this

[rugged barn]

But it beats having to reinstall everything all the time

[gleaming knoll]

atleast you have something clear to manage

not some global state mess edited by god knows what scripts ran in god knows what order

[turbid sigil]

take a look at the free code camp tutorial I had sent earlier rq, and then there are books like "effective shell" or "linux command line" both from nostarchpress if you want to go more indepth

they have a few chapters on shell scripting there. They were fun to read.

[terse mauve]

It's not wrong, it's just unnecessarily complicated

[glad egret]

I would totally write a test for that class where it connects to the real life repository, if possible. e.g. if the outside repository was memory or file system based. Sometimes that system is hard/impossible to reset or setup for your tests. I have a project that interacts with github so I use contract tests there.

But I would still probability refactor out the smallest and exact bits that communicate to the repository, mock the interaction, and write a unit tests. Those mocks will make setup for a bunch more unit tests way easier.

I dont know if there is 'real' name for this pattern, but I call it the 'dont touch me' pattern haha. I think it totally valid to put things that are implicitly hard to test in a dark little corner, build guards that prevent people from accidentally updating them, and then not touching them for years. When you do end up having to update something there, they require a bit of time extensive manual effort, but only every once in a very long while. Its a fine trade off IMO.

[terse mauve]

home-manager :😍

[ashen jungle]

i don't think shebangs are the first thing someone learning python for the first time should have to learn

[crisp jay]

Pretty sure this doesnt work

You need the -S flag

[turbid sigil]

yeah, what is your usecase for learning scripting?

[terse mauve]

I agree, this has nothing to do with python and more linux specific

[ashen jungle]

yes

[crisp jay]

When I need the shell to give me things

[terse mauve]

it's on mulyiple lines not a single one, it will work

[prime mountain]

Oh wait I have the linux command line! I paused learning through it for ATBS 😂

[terse mauve]

OP formatting was odd

[prime mountain]

Anyways, thanks

[turbid sigil]

ofc, I mean for atreus' learning goals.

[terse mauve]

ATBS?

[turbid sigil]

automate the boring stuff

[terse mauve]

ah, thanks

[prime mountain]

Yeah

[crisp jay]

#!/usr/bin/env -S bash --norc
output=( $(mpstat --dec=0 1 1) )
cpu_usage=$((100-${output[-1]}))
echo $cpu_usage

Like this for example

[glad egret]

The testability of the code as a whole is greatly influence on where and how you use our example Repository class. Dependency Injection / Inversion of control can make testing in general way more manageable. Also part of the "Dont touch it' / 'the floor(class) is lava' pattern

[hexed grotto]

hi!

[turbid sigil]

@prime mountain but if its for python specific reasons, you don't need to know shell scripting itself. You can make python scripts through the sys library that runs on the command line. Those then can be either called on its own, or in bash scripts. You don't necessarily need to know bash, too, cause if you work with MS systems like azure cloud, they use powershell (I think)

[raven urchin]

Hi Pydis

[gleaming knoll]

(unnecessary norc)

[prime mountain]

I am on linux and I mostly hope to use python for robotics and automation

[glad egret]

@tame hinge Sorry if the replies seem confrontational. They aren't meant that way, just trying to keep things organized for anyone reading along and in a room with many concurrent conversations.

[prime mountain]

Also I like computers in general so it's a personal interest

[turbid sigil]

👍

[tame hinge]

Take for example there's some registration and login code, you need to register an account before you login. This code could be annoying, having to add entities into repositories and get it into a certain state... Or it could be easy, have your test case setup inject everything with fake repositories and test it like it's the real thing from a layer down but in memory. So you just call registration and then login and assert the results.

[tame hinge]

Are we talking about GitHub repositories or the repository pattern?

[raven urchin]

Damn that's tuff

[prime mountain]

?? You mean I chose wrong or something similar to that?

[raven urchin]

I mean that's cool

[prime mountain]

Oh okay 😆

[knotty ice]

[glad egret]

I was talking about the repository pattern. I used Github as an example for when I make class that interfaces with it very small and rely on contracts for testing and assume a fairly stable interface. I have some other observably tricks that help, but those are outside the topic of testing

[knotty ice]

learning python dam its so demotivating rn

[raven urchin]

Demotivating? Once you create your first little project is the best thing ever. What have you done so far?

[hot lark]

hello

[raven urchin]

Hi

[hot lark]

how are you bro?

[ocean ridge]

demotivating? i'd like to see you learn rust

[harsh anchor]

[tame hinge]

If we're talking about an interface to GitHub or something and wanting to be able to test code that uses it I think that's a fairly simple example. All the code that needs to use GitHub would be simple and use dependency injection. It's probably stateless so you can just stub responses that you need. But what I'm trying to say is that there's a lot of code that integrates with a real system and changes state, like if you're just querying stuff it's simple, verify it interacts with your mock, stub or spy correctly. But what if you have a collection of code that in practice you're creating something on an external API then getting it later. I might be mixing up arguments here. But that's when I'd make a fake version of the real system in memory that requires no setup, it just acts naturally and I can write my tests like I have the real thing, in contrast to caring about small interactions or method calls.

[rapid pond]

are you stuck on one thing in particular? there are probably some people here who can help!

(I remember hitting the wall a couple of times when I was just starting out, too. I think it happens to everyone.)

[ocean ridge]

my "wall" was OOP concepts

[glad egret]

If I can set a config and make whatever the outside system the repository pattern in talking to easy to start, reset and have a modicum of effecienty(think writing a file vs making a network call). I'll just set a config pointing my app to the outside instance use for testing the thing. I'll likely have a bunch of the same test helpers for managing it regardless of if I'm managing it with mocks or treating it as an integration no matter what so my tests look pretty similar.

[slow rivet]

But how do you know your fake version of the service is implemented correctly?

[tame hinge]

Keep it so simple it's unlikely to go wrong or add tests for it.

[slow rivet]

Real services have a ton of tiny things you might forget to model, restrictions on valid inputs, rate limits, etc

Like in general you should at the very least have the option to test against the real service once in a while, maybe not on every change. But at least in CI before a release etc

[tame hinge]

No of course for that you add tests for your fake service if you need that or you don't need it really. You'd tell your fake service to use the rate limit you want to test your code or whatever. I'm talking about in memory fakes for unit tests/groups of code.

[slow rivet]

Sure for unit tests you can stub out some stuff, but you just have to be careful the way you stub it actually matches the real service

Like say your stub accidently accepts negative values when the real service doesn't etc

The best option is if you can spinup a version of the service locally, but ofc that isn't always possible

[raven urchin]

Now that I think about it, I didn't have any walls when learning the language itself. My only problems are either solving problems or understanding what problem I have to solve.

[ocean ridge]

i mean thats the only thing i had difficulty learning

since i came from scratch

[tame hinge]

And they don't run fast and don't tell me my code/business logic works correctly directly.

[ocean ridge]

there was no such OOP in scratch 🙃

[raven urchin]

Python was my first

[slow rivet]

Well it depends on how dependant your business logic is on the service

[glad egret]

I think we are agreeing on the same thing. That is what the example for my system that interacts with github is doing. My system automates new projects. One of the steps is setting up github repos. I can't responsibility do that interaction in any of my tests (integration or unit). So I make an interface that doesn't have to change, mock the api calls to ensure they are being called with the right args, and dont touch it.

I've gone down the make a api proxy route too. Its perfectly valid way to test that interaction. Both apporaches have their own trade offs. I have even used both patterns in the same project for different reason.

[tame hinge]

This is ideal for integration/end to end tests and what I do for making sure the implementations actually work. Second best is spinning up a fake version of the service, third is very simplified interfaces to the service in your code with just what you need.

[ocean ridge]

well when i was 10, i was taught scratch at school so i did a lot of stuff in it and got real good at scratch programming and then wanted to do some real programming so i started learning python

[raven urchin]

Ooh

[ocean ridge]

my 2nd was c++ for programming arduino and microcontrollers

[rugged barn]

You don't need tests if you're confident on your own code 👍
/s

[raven urchin]

Oh God

[raven urchin]

I need to learn how to write tests for my Python code 😔

Tests are hard

[ocean ridge]

rust has an advanced in built testing suite

#TeamRust

[glad egret]

There are a few tools that came out of the tools like swagger/OpenAPI that can make proxies easy to spin up.

[raven urchin]

Good for Rust, but I'm not ready to start learning Rust.

[rugged barn]

#cfg(test) moment

[ocean ridge]

running 1 test
test testings::larger_holds_small ... ok
test result: ok. 1 passed; 0 failed; 0 ignored; 0 measured; 0 filtered out; finished in 0.00s

How wonderful!

[glad egret]

But I normally start with a dumb little extra flask app and trying to hold off on more complicated tool setups for as long as possible

[charred tusk]

hey Copilot, please backport PR 923 to the legacy branch

API response 400, there are no commits changed between my branch and main
🤦‍♀️

[raven urchin]

Absolutely no.

[ocean ridge]

#[cfg(test)] not #cfg(test)

[raven urchin]

Go to a police station.

[tame hinge]

I haven't had to even think about implementing whole fakes yet besides for the discord API/gateway. The only application I've come close to is one for adapters needing to be tested with wiremock, and what I'm writing is basically an http reverse proxy so using stubbed responses are exactly right.

[surreal summit]

yeah i guess...

[rugged barn]

I'll be sure to update the joke next time

[ocean ridge]

alr

[charred tusk]

<@&831776746206265384>

[charred tusk]

There’s no guessing
Phone numbers don’t give anything
And vigilantism also ends with the idiot getting himself shot

[glad egret]

I'm curious what tools are you using to make the proxy with?

[tawdry bolt]

hi guys im new here

[glad egret]

@tame hinge I made a super neat proxy server a super long time ago. Its been on my list of projects to resurrect it into a real life library.

[tame hinge]

For the discord API/gateway the tests are supposed to be abstracted and not know how it's setup, so I started off by just trying to get stuff working in memory and modifying class state. Like I'll have a method on the harness like send message, create user, etc and then it'll get sent through the discord bot clients message handlers. I'm doing it all in memory to start and plan to put a web framework on top to enable all the API stuff. It wasn't fully thought out what I wanted to do with it and it's not far along. Unless you meant what am I using to make the reverse proxy.

[tame hinge]

I used aiohttp and hexagonal architecture for the proxying logic.

[glad egret]

a littel of both.

[tame hinge]

https://github.com/RequiemWorld/requiem_ambassador/blob/main/requiem_ambassador/http_proxy/security.py
https://github.com/RequiemWorld/requiem_ambassador/blob/68451b81c0e092c5f5812b82dc88f6d7446014c6/ambassador_prototyping.py#L224

[terse mauve]

Also python's

[glad egret]

Yea the ports and adapter pattern works really well for these kind of integrations. A lot of times I'll pair it with a factory to grab the right adapter.. Its not uncommon for me to have 4 types. The real api call, a test adapter, a dev adapter, and a null object. test and dev look really similar, but it allows me to work in one without messing the others up. Though sometimes they are a super duper different. test being more like a set of static mocks and dev turning into a proxy with some observability mixed in. With the right set of adapters ya will never need a mock in any of your tests :). But some people dont like this kind of test code being live in production 🤷

[terse mauve]

I recommend you take a look at pytest, unittest is less intuitive imo

[raven urchin]

Do you think it would be a good exercise to make some tests for Hux?

[terse mauve]

for anything really

[terse mauve]

but yeah, sure. why not

[glad egret]

But unittest is stdlib and less magical 🙂 I've seen pytest sneak into more and more new projects though still a valid choice

[terse mauve]

ik it's less magical, but overall I think that pytest is the most solid choice

[tame hinge]

I love unittest and you can combine both. I use it as a runner and sometimes use the fixtures with autouse on the classes for more control.

[raven urchin]

I just don't know anything about testing, but I know it's pretty important

[terse mauve]

you don't need with 1000 tests, you can start with a single one. this will ensure that function returns what you expect it to return

[tame hinge]

I would trust unittest with my life.

[raven urchin]

🫡

[terse mauve]

If you're gonna push to main directly without having a CI to enforce it, it will become useless

[glad egret]

unittest is just a bunch of useful functions. The test finders never seem to work for me out of the box though and thats annoying. But pytest overrides the core assert method in python. And that monky patch has caused me more headach than I would like in the past

[raven urchin]

CI?

[terse mauve]

I preffers the assert approach over the self.assertTrue self.assertFalse self.assertIsinstace etc...

[glad egret]

haha the first test that I always write doesn't even test a application function. just expect(1+2).toEqual(2) -> wach it fail -> update 2 to 3. Just to make sure the pumbing working haha

[cerulean ravine]

me too

[cerulean ravine]

"make sure the plumbing works" is a test.

[terse mauve]

Continues integration. a process that runs automatically based on a condition.

Here for example, it would be useful to run the test suite on every PR

[tame hinge]

That's what I do when first setting up workflows on GitHub for testing, just importing the package and making sure it doesn't fail.

[raven urchin]

Oohhh

[terse mauve]

If the CI reports errors it will prevent you from merging defective code

[brittle merlin]

hi new here

[raven urchin]

That's pretty cool

[glad egret]

That is one huge benefits to pytest. It pushes ya to write tests that test only true and false. Apposed to using a huge collection of fancy matchers. Those get out of hand 🙃

[brittle merlin]

yo @raven urchin

[terse mauve]

tests aren't useful unless there's something that checks them

[raven urchin]

Yeah?

[brittle merlin]

yo

[terse mauve]

same:)

[glad egret]

They aren't all the useful unless they break either 😉

[turbid sigil]

if I had to pick one first, unittest or pytest or both to learn the fastest, which one would you advocate for?

[raven urchin]

Obviously, obviously. Those sound really useful, I'm wondering how it works, might look into it later.

[terse mauve]

If you're gonna change the API intentionally, the tests would need to be modified as well

[terse mauve]

You have github actions for free

[brittle merlin]

try GitHub actions

[gleaming knoll]

i hate systemd

[raven urchin]

Shouldn't I write the tests first?

[terse mauve]

oh boy, here we go again. why?

[raven urchin]

What did sysd do to u

[brittle merlin]

what are you making exactly

[raven urchin]

Discord bot

[terse mauve]

start with a dummy test, and work on the CI

[terse mauve]

Then, have a branch rule to restrict you from pushing directly to main (yes, even with --force)

[glad egret]

"Should I write this test?"
As one of my mentors says one of my mentors says
"write a test until it gets boring" 🙂 go ahead and test the plumbing until it gets boring 🙂

[brittle merlin]

tests and CI is okay for learning purpose I guess

if it's something big and you have plans of updating ur app with updates in future then definitely do

[terse mauve]

I'd say pytest

[raven urchin]

Oki

[glad egret]

do it in any order than makes sense. I write the test 2nd all the time. I make sure to see it break at least once before I'm done though.

[brittle merlin]

The only "tests" I write are snippets inside if name == main

[raven urchin]

Can you show me later how to do that? I have no electricity as of now.

[terse mauve]

ofc

[brittle merlin]

how do you set that up? is this actions side or git side?

[terse mauve]

it's a github feature (other git hosting providers provides the same functionality, possibility under a different name)

[brittle merlin]

i see

[terse mauve]

https://docs.github.com/en/repositories/configuring-branches-and-merges-in-your-repository/managing-protected-branches/managing-a-branch-protection-rule

[tawdry bolt]

alright bro..

<@&831776746206265384> guys does this ping works just testing

[naive ermine]

Yes it works

[turbid sigil]

yes, goofball lol

[tawdry bolt]

oh.

[naive ermine]

Don't ping for tests.

[tawdry bolt]

sorry

[raven urchin]

Why would it not work..m

[gleaming knoll]

tbh, if only i knew. its just that nothing works
i need to : run my WM session, then when its ready the wallpaper daemon, and a DPI bypass tool
the wallpaper daemon runs but seems to run too soon so it doesnt apply
the DPI bypass tool ExecStart runs if i just run it explicitly but hangs on systemctl start

[glad egret]

short answer is I dont think it matters since the first test you will write are pretty simple. Import outside function -> run fuction with parameters -> and check the result.

IMO pytest will read better and might be more intuitive, but the things you are interacting with in unittest are more core/building block-y than untitests. e.g. the unittest matchers are pretty much just functions that raise exceptions. But those are pretty small details when you are starting out, flip a coin 🙂 or better yet write a simple test in both and keep the one you like most

[turbid sigil]

absolutely. Thank you.

[terse mauve]

systemd does have bugs (like any other software), it's just relatively rare to encounter it since it's such a core component in many distros

[frigid trout]

What happens if you ping @ everyone?

[terse mauve]

pings everyone on the server, no?

[grave tree]

it won't ping and your message will be removed

[frigid trout]

I know I have tried it before. The bot sends you a message

[spice hill]

I wonder why we remove the message 🤔

[terse mauve]

that's great

[grave tree]

... so then why ask?

[frigid trout]

I wanted him to try it.

[glad egret]

@turbid sigil I'd focus on only function that dont have side effects to start off with. e.g. functions that one provide a simple answer without knowing anything that is outside of it.

[grave tree]

we removed it before replies because of the lemon ping incident. Since then it's been very effective at removing spam and rule breaking messages

[raven urchin]

Depending on your DE I think you can just stop running stuff from Systemd and run it through your DE/WM.

I use a lot of exec-once in Hyprland.

[grave tree]

... don't. Come on now

[frigid trout]

In the Pygame server they ban you if you do that. Haven't tried though.

[gleaming knoll]

yeah i did start-at-startup "awww-daemon" and it has the same problem. only worked with spawn-sh-at-startup "awww-daemon && sleep 1 && awww restore", which is stupid.

[terse mauve]

lemon ping incident?

[grave tree]

#ot1-perplexing-regexing message

[glass shoal]

what does @ here even ping to

[raven urchin]

Then maybe it isn't really a systemd problem, but a that thing problem.

[gleaming knoll]

i dont want to use sleep as a way of timing
this is disgusting

[grave tree]

if you have permissions, pings the people who can see the channel who are also active/online

[turbid sigil]

mhm, makes sense. I understand what you are saying/what you mean by side effects.

[raven urchin]

If it works, it works.

I have OpenRGB with sleep too

[tawdry bolt]

@pseudo carbon hi

[frigid trout]

Sir lancebot is more fun to talk to but do that in #sir-lancebot-playground

[tawdry bolt]

So many channels in here

[terse mauve]

That's great, wait. I'll send you something you probably already know

[turbid sigil]

How simple I should make my functions is kinda difficult for me to wrap my head around, so it's been good to experiment. For example, I made a byte reader, where I then had a decorator around it to transform the bytes into whatever format I wanted it to be in (xml, json, etc.)

but that turned out to be quite tedious, cause there were functions already there in libraries

[terse mauve]

https://github.com/EpicGames/Signup/pull/24

[turbid sigil]

I am still a bit lost there, where should there be side effects, and where there shouldn't be any

[terse mauve]

You sent it so quick lol

[grave tree]

it's pinned in the channel

[terse mauve]

ah

[turbid sigil]

or wait, it would be an adaptor, not a wrapper/decorator

my bad

[glad egret]

thing this like

    return a+b

Stay away from testing things like

function save_add(a,b):
    result = a+b
    with open('result', 'w') as f
        f.write(a+b)

    return result`

Saving the result to a file is an example of changing some state outside of your function. They require special and sometimes confusing to new people testing tools. Focusing on the kind of function like the first one will also help train you to make more functions that are easier to test by breaking down problems into more smaller functions.

[terse mauve]

In a span of 2 days, github sent roughly 40,000,000+ emails 🤦‍♂️

[turbid sigil]

👍

[velvet holly]

It isn't possible to type something like: v1, v2, v3: float = 0.0, 0.0, 0.0?

[turbid sigil]

uhh, it would have to be v1, v2, v3: float, float, float = 0.0, 0.0, 0.0 I think

[quasi umbra]

hi guys

[turbid sigil]

but yes, its possible.

[quasi umbra]

i genuinely had a laugh when i heard somebody in a video say

"ai is taking programming"

[terse mauve]

#bot-commands message

[velvet holly]

Already tried and it isn't valid

[velvet holly]

Yeah I thought so

[gleaming knoll]

you dont need an annotation here anyways, float will be inferred here
and can just do v1 = v2 = v3 = 0.0

[clear crystal]

hi fella snakes

[velvet holly]

Inferred types don't make sense to me