python-discussion

[ashen cipher]

and that isnt an actual benchmark

[grim hatch]

Oh fair enough

[dry basin]

it just doesn't feel the same anymore

[grim hatch]

Let me search properly

[iron pagoda]

I think it's Ubuntu that receives a lot of attacks, if I'm not mistaken.

[bronze dragon]

you're probably not getting one from this chat tbh
time to run one yourself

[ashen cipher]

but ion wannaaaaaa :(

[iron pagoda]

Ubuntu and Debian receive over 200 viruses and intrusions per year, almost on par with Java and JavaScript libraries hahaha

[bronze dragon]

or, you could find benchmarks of tcc vs gcc/clang, which surely exist
and benchmarks of CPython vs gcc/clang
and correlate them

[dry basin]

he is referring to sources in like 2023 I think

[grim hatch]

C VS Python benchmarks, Which programming language or compiler is faster https://share.google/kJYNqpP5VpHJYOS8V

[ashen cipher]

that SO link was from 2010 TwT

[grim hatch]

@ashen cipher

[iron pagoda]

Lol

[grim hatch]

Actually 😭

[grim hatch]

No chatGPT this time

[iron pagoda]

It's very obvious who wins by a landslide.

[bronze dragon]

the point is to find out by how much

[grim hatch]

She wants a specific number

[iron pagoda]

Ok ok, GPT chat is prohibited.

[bronze dragon]

"landslide" is hardly quantitative

[ashen cipher]

this uses gcc, not tcc

[iron pagoda]

100000??? Hahaha

[ashen cipher]

;-;

[jagged belfry]

Are we comparing box trucks to sedans again?

[ashen cipher]

sure

[dry basin]

hm there only like a few in 2010 from stackoverflow tbh

[bronze dragon]

T_tcc/T_py = T_tcc/T_gcc * T_gcc/T_py

[ashen cipher]

skull

[iron pagoda]

Scary

[ashen cipher]

now how do you find T_tcc/T_gcc

:p

[bronze dragon]

surely there are benchmarks of TCC vs GCC online

[ashen cipher]

oh

[iron pagoda]

GCC He will be buried soon.

[grim hatch]

I'll make my own compiler

[ashen cipher]

clang supporter i see

[jagged belfry]

https://github.com/nordlow/compiler-benchmark has python and tcc

[grim hatch]

And it'll be, not 10, not 100 but 1000 times slower

[junior wraith]

The answer is a "it depends™"

[iron pagoda]

I don't think so

[ashen cipher]

i kinda did expect that, and benchmarks usually do account for that (i.e. theres 50 benchmarks for 50 different cases)

[dry basin]

this heat first dropped around 2019-2020

golden era for me

I was 12-13

[grim hatch]

Meh

[iron pagoda]

[ashen cipher]

this really doesnt measure much imo ,,,

This will, for the C language case, generate a file generated/c/main.c containing

long add_long_n0_h0(long x) { return x + 15440; }
long add_long_n0(long x) { return x + add_long_n0_h0(x) + 95485; }

long add_long_n1_h0(long x) { return x + 37523; }
long add_long_n1(long x) { return x + add_long_n1_h0(x) + 92492; }

long add_long_n2_h0(long x) { return x + 39239; }
long add_long_n2(long x) { return x + add_long_n2_h0(x) + 12248; }


int main(__attribute__((unused)) int argc, __attribute__((unused)) char* argv[]) {
    long long_sum = 0;
    long_sum += add_long_n0(0);
    long_sum += add_long_n1(1);
    long_sum += add_long_n2(2);
    return long_sum;
}``` which is essentially useless in terms of any actual comparison of languages except maybe initial overhead of compilation

[grim hatch]

We only need C

And Python

[iron pagoda]

Mm

[grim hatch]

In my world at least

[iron pagoda]

C, Rust and Python

Good triad

Aristotle who planned

[ashen cipher]

if you combine C and rust you get crust

[iron pagoda]

It'll be alright! Trust me!

[dry basin]

#include <iostream>

int main() {
    long long x = 9223372036854775807LL; // LLONG_MAX
    std::cout << x << std::endl;
    return 0;
}

code from 2019 btw

[ashen cipher]

yeah i mean this really doesnt measure much in terms of runtime performance ;;

[dry basin]

cheesy pizza with a nice crust

[ashen cipher]

yum

[kind thicket]

neither in terms of compilation

[iron pagoda]

❤️

[ashen cipher]

idk much about benchmarking compilers but that sounds about right

hi thuri

[fiery yarrow]

functools now has functools.Placeholder for partial

in 3.14 or later

[kind thicket]

especially for C/C++ where the macros can make the compilation quite tricky and difficult to process

[ashen cipher]

the struggles of having to support older versions of a language

[fiery yarrow]

there's a way to do it without placeholder, but it's kinda ugly iirc, involving lambda?

[kind thicket]

or at least compiling stuff across files

[iron pagoda]

[fiery yarrow]

can always alter the function order, of course

[dry basin]

i use python 3.13 and because of that I can't run stuff using pytorch and on my newly installed distro it can't get pytorch

[iron pagoda]

I'm new to Python.

[dry basin]

i can't wait until they get the wheels for it

[dry basin]

pytorch is just an open-source machine learning library

[grim hatch]

Why don't you upgrade?

[fiery yarrow]

come to think of it:
the function i want to partial's signature is currently foo(tuple[int, str, int], thingy). i'm not actually sure that partial can do that, given only the first int and the thingy value. i think it probably can't

[grim hatch]

What he said

[dry basin]

don't worry about it you'll get it soon

[dry basin]

the problem is the upgrade

[iron pagoda]

Hah

[dry basin]

pytorch could work on the older versions

[grim hatch]

Do you have projects that use some packages tied to that version?

[dry basin]

just not this one

[grim hatch]

How much time until they support python 3.14.4

It's been a year

Mb

[iron pagoda]

I always use the latest versions.

[grim hatch]

What the hell am I saying

[dry basin]

idk they haven't even got one for 3.13

[jagged belfry]

Yeah, it can't do that even in 3.14

just make a new function in place, and watch the scoping rules, they bite

[grim hatch]

Yo these pyjams looks fun

[fiery yarrow]

eh, i control the original one. i can alter its signature

[grim hatch]

Maybe I should participate

[iron pagoda]

I'm going to sleep, goodnight.

[grim hatch]

Good night

[dry basin]

good night

[grim hatch]

I need to start participating in these challenges

They sound fun

[brisk gazelle]

Ooh. Pajama Pyjam. Comfy programming.

[grim hatch]

Lol fr

[brisk gazelle]

Any distraction or any discomfort of any sort, my brain just nopes out.

So pajamas while programming...not the worst.

[grim hatch]

Someone should make that

[prime mountain]

Hi

[wicked comet]

I'm using pytorch on 3.13

[prime mountain]

Can relate so much

[dry basin]

how

[ember tulip]

i just opened pytorch source code on vscode and its just frying my laptop just by being there

[wicked comet]

I didn't update python to the new version

[ember tulip]

i got logged out of my system 4 times today because of OOM kernel panic

just by opening vscode 🙂

[dry basin]

is it 3.13.5?

[wicked comet]

No I think it's higher

[dry basin]

No way

I literally just tried it on my python version

It doesn’t work

[wicked comet]

What version do you have

[dry basin]

Python 3.13.5

[raw bramble]

3.14.4 is the newest stable version

3.15 is being released later this year

[wicked comet]

Wait what version of pytorch do you have

[granite wyvern]

Should there be 11 more minor releases first. Just because it could be done? /jk

[raw bramble]

I’ve been saying this 😄😁

[dry basin]

That’s the thing I can’t get it on the distro I have right most I’m trying to install but it works on my other distros that have an older version

[wicked comet]

Then reinstall it

Pip install torch

[grizzled solar]

Anybody wanna play chess?

[dry basin]

I don’t have it at all on the distro I am on right now

I can’t install it

Because it(pytorch) doesn’t have the wheels for it

[dry basin]

I would lose all my old stuff tho

Or at least all my good stuff

[granite wyvern]

You can install more than one python version.
And your code is unrelated to the python version.

What specificly do you expect to lose?

[dry basin]

i know but I think that costs a lot of ram and some of builds won't run on the newer versions(because of older libraries and such) in the case for pytorch i don't think it even has wheels for versions 3.14 because it doesn't even have wheels for 3.13.5

[granite wyvern]

RAM? I doubt it. RAM's transient while you run programmes.

I don't know how a different install would affect your other builds, sorry.

You've visited this? https://pytorch.org/get-started/locally/

Disclaimer: I've never used pytorch. These are just resources, not my advice.

[dry basin]

i have already looked into this website I telling you what my kernel is telling me

[granite wyvern]

Fair enough.

[dry basin]

it keeps running into that error when building the wheel for pytorch(maybe because they don't have the wheels for it)

[sharp sinew]

How do I capitalize the first letter of an input?

[swift sparrow]

there's a string method for it with str.capitalize

!e

text = 'hello'
print(text.capitalize())

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

Hello

[inland karma]

good morning

[spice hill]

hi eivl

[sharp sinew]

Does the ()) matter at the end?

[swift sparrow]

try it without and see what happens

[inland karma]

what python version are you using?

[dry basin]

3.13.5

[inland karma]

what errors did you get?

and what exact install command did you run?

[spice hill]

btw, I started reading the boar book. It feels like it contains too much information, but I am not able to absorb it very well. Maybe some of it will lay dormant in my head until I need it.

[inland karma]

my shop had 1 left, and when i got there it was sold out... so im waiting for them to restock

[sharp sinew]

Can I send you a photo in your DMs?

[quartz fulcrum]

good morning

[dry basin]

:~/gaia$ pip install pytorch --break-system-packages
Defaulting to user installation because normal site-packages is not writeable
Collecting pytorch
  Using cached pytorch-1.0.2.tar.gz (689 bytes)
  Installing build dependencies ... done
  Getting requirements to build wheel ... done
  Preparing metadata (pyproject.toml) ... done
Building wheels for collected packages: pytorch
  Building wheel for pytorch (pyproject.toml) ... error
  error: subprocess-exited-with-error
  
  × Building wheel for pytorch (pyproject.toml) did not run successfully.
  │ exit code: 1
  ╰─> [37 lines of output]

[inland karma]

no no no ..

yoou cant use system python

[spice hill]

smh pip names the parameter break-system-packages and people still use it

[inland karma]

you have to install python and make a venv fiirst

[dry basin]

I have been using a venv for a while icl

[inland karma]

also, you have to use the install guide on pytorch and not just install pytorch, that will never work

what cuda version do you have installed?

[rare abyss]

Im trying to make a random thing but this happens:

code: name = str(input("Whats your name?"))
age = int(input("How old are you?"))
if age > 12:
print(name.capitalize , "is older than Timmy")

[edgy kraken]

Hey @rare abyss!

Please edit your message to use a code block

```py
print('Hello, world!')
```

This will result in the following:

print('Hello, world!')```

[rare abyss]

''' py

[golden mortar]

Those are apostrophes ('), you want backticks (`)

[swift sparrow]

Why? If you want to share a photo here, you can open a help thread

[brisk gazelle]

You can drop the str call and you need to call the capitalize method by adding ().

[rare abyss]

Thanks! Now it works.

[inland karma]

remove this, we dont allow advertisements here

[inland karma]

what cuda version do you have installed?

that is the rule, you already said you had read them when you joined. now you prove that you lied. so remove it and go read #rules

[rare abyss]

How do I go to anoher line when typing in dc? When I push the enter button it just sends the message.

[swift sparrow]

shift+enter

[celest osprey]

shift + enter

oop lol

[rare abyss]

Thanks!

[inland karma]

!mute 1442828389898653831 you need a break to read our #rules and one of the rules is that you listen to staff and moderators are part of staff.

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @umbral dagger until <t:1777617359:f> (1 hour).

[jagged belfry]

!cleanban 1442828389898653831 spam

[edgy kraken]

:ok_hand: applied ban to @umbral dagger permanently.

[rare abyss]

Also what happens if I dont put py when doing

print("hello world!" *9999999999999999999999999) 

[prime mountain]

Hahahah

[swift sparrow]

py just adds the syntax colouring

[rare abyss]

Oh thats fun

[brisk gazelle]

The py triggers the readability colouring.

[quartz fulcrum]

Coding has now become a hobby and free lance career
No longer any proper careers in it long term.

i am totally unaware about indian market...
any suggestion on what things should i stay updated

[rare abyss]

Does the same thing work for javascript or other languages?

[brisk gazelle]

There are codes for other languages, yes.

[bronze dragon]

"no longer any proper careers" is too premature to say.

[paper kiln]

Hello!

[rare abyss]

Thanks! Im going to bed. Gn.

[quartz fulcrum]

What type of jobs are there @bronze dragon

[bronze dragon]

Regular software engineering, like always

[dry basin]

I am using ROCm

[inland karma]

that looks like linkedin spam to me, pay no attention to that

[bronze dragon]

Companies are still hiring interns and juniors

[quartz fulcrum]

took from offtopic

[bronze dragon]

I can say that from personal experience, and from market data

[inland karma]

oh, then you are for sure using the incorrect install command....

pip install torch torchvision --index-url https://download.pytorch.org/whl/rocm7.2

[quartz fulcrum]

so i can do programming study full time..right?

[inland karma]

you have to tell the installer that you want to use ROCm @dry basin

[prime mountain]

I hope to one day properly analyse the job market by webscraping job sites using python 😛

[bronze dragon]

What you want to do is up to you. No one knows the future, and only you know what you want.

[inland karma]

it is all documented on the pytorch install guide on their website @dry basin

[prime mountain]

Or it could be that someone already did this

[inland karma]

once installed in your venv, test it by running python and doing this

import torch
x = torch.rand(5, 3)
print(x)

[prime mountain]

@bronze dragon Hey, how're you?

I pinged casually. I'll not do it if you're not comfortable with it

[mossy sigil]

go hunt some deer

[bronze dragon]

hey! I'm doing great, you?

[dry basin]

yea i figured just now I forgot this PC is using ROCm

[prime mountain]

I think it's illegal here.

[prime mountain]

Woke up late. Got to prepare breakfast and do some cleaning

But doing alright in general.

What made you interested in procedual generation?

[quartz fulcrum]

you are right...😞

[wicked comet]

How are you doing that then

[inland karma]

a normal pip install only works if you have nvidia, have the latest supported cuda version installed, and have the latest supported python.

[wicked comet]

It works if you have it installed

[prime mountain]

I don't know enough to know how
I just think it's possible and just hope to one day..

[dry basin]

everything is working now thankfully

[wicked comet]

What do you know so far then

[quartz fulcrum]

youtubers say..learn to think first before you learn programming..
i mean isnt doing programming teach thinking?

[prime mountain]

I know how to use the pathlib 😆

Basics of API, file I/O

I haven't specialised in any subgenres of programming yet.

[inland karma]

fantastic..

[golden mortar]

Yes, that advice doesn't make much sense to me. You learn programming by writing code.

[inland karma]

they are wrong

[prime mountain]

Lot of bad advice out there. Be careful.

[robust ledge]

Youtubers say a lot of things for the views. You have to learn how to reason about what is nonsense and what might be valuable.

[bronze dragon]

I think ages ago I saw some videos or posts about generating terrain using noise and I found that interesting. I like thinking about the mechanisms that are behind cool effects or cool phenomena, and I like tinkering trying to translate that into a program that produces said cool effect.

[wicked comet]

To do it you need duckduck go search (ddgs) and beautiful soup

[inland karma]

youtubers say what they need for you to not learn so you can watch their content instead @quartz fulcrum i have said so before, stay away from youtube if you want to learn

[inland karma]

you can use perlin noise to do that

[bronze dragon]

Yep, that's the classic method

[prime mountain]

Nicee! I learnt about how games do it using perlin noise in SoME videos

[inland karma]

modify it and you can have it create bioms as well

[quartz fulcrum]

mhmm

[velvet hull]

what are yall opinion about this https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/291284109232308226/1499648013717737532

[inland karma]

you learn from doing it yourself, you writing code, you reading text, you beeing active.. watching someone else do that is passive, and you cant learn from it

[wicked comet]

I mean to solve a problem you have to think about it and the way you thought process is determines how you write code

[inland karma]

only thing you can gain from that is recognition, and recognition is not learning

[quartz fulcrum]

sometimes it feels risky to study programming

[wicked comet]

AI and stuff

[dry basin]

thank you brother

[inland karma]

my pleasure!

[robust ledge]

Try to recognize that you are improving yourself. That's always a valuable investment.

[wicked comet]

In this economy thinking is everything

[robust ledge]

It always has been.

[golden mortar]

Maybe become a plumber then

[quartz fulcrum]

its also a skill though

[bronze dragon]

Everything is

[prime mountain]

Time studying the workings of computers isn't that wasteful. Especially in this century imo..

[granite wyvern]

Met a plumber who was also doing java.

[prime mountain]

Did they come up with any funny joke about pipelining?

[granite wyvern]

No.

[prime mountain]

Ok

[golden mortar]

He's obsessed with flowcharts though

[prime mountain]

[tame vapor]

then why not choose something else

[quartz fulcrum]

no, Programming matches my patterns..but thinking about job market is not wrong..?

[tame vapor]

ofcourse its not wrong , i was just putting out options
because if you have already chosen your discipline of degree as CS and already few years into it, u kind of should finish it anyways rather than quit midway

also what do u mean by "matches my patterns" ?

[quartz fulcrum]

I can live without doing revisions but building projects

little revision is fine..but watching the same notes again and again kinda exhausting,

[swift sparrow]

why are you watching the same notes again and again?

[quartz fulcrum]

to fresh up the concepts

[gleaming knoll]

a goat farmer

[golden mortar]

It's generally better for retention to use the concepts in practice

[gleaming knoll]

imagine being like
a botanical garden maintainer
peak job

[spice hill]

Maybe Russian was cooking with ботаник

(predicting the future)

[gleaming knoll]

god gave us pattern recognition to relate words even though they are formed from different roots
oops i mean to avoid predators

[spice hill]

I don't think it has a different etymology, it's just "botanist" used figuratively for some reason

[golden mortar]

I think individual farming was made obsolete long ago

[gleaming knoll]

unfortunately yeah, best bet is going somewhere rural and just having your own household

[spice hill]

depends on what counts as farming

[quartz fulcrum]

my parents were farmers, in india it is still there individual farming

[golden mortar]

Might not be very future-proof though

[dry basin]

@inland karma I finally got the new builds working now thanks bro

[inland karma]

great to hear

[peak relic]

Like an actual farm? Do you know if they have any farming equipment? Maybe you could help build them an automated farming setup. Have a look at https://farm.bot where you would play with a CNC framework

hmm

[modern hinge]

when is it better to use a match statement instead of a bunch of if and elif? I have a program with 5 elif statements checking for an input, would it be better to use match?

[swift sparrow]

match is better used when you care about the shape of the data. If you're just comparing against certain inputs, if/elif is perfectly fine

[bronze dragon]

if you want to match on the structure of the value in some way

[peak relic]

!pip farmbot is neat

[edgy kraken]

farmbot v2.1.0

FarmBot Python package

Released on <t:1772664304:D>.

[modern hinge]

could you elaborate please

[swift sparrow]

if you only ever expect to compare against various strings, then if/elif is perfect. If you might expect data to arrive in different forms (maybe a tuple with a specific order, or some other types), then match is what you want

[bronze dragon]

it is worth reading the PEP: https://peps.python.org/pep-0622/
further, https://nedbatchelder.com/blog/202312/realworld_matchcase and https://peps.python.org/pep-0636/

[modern hinge]

oh alr thank you

[quartz fulcrum]

automation is increasing in india too..

[peak relic]

Then you are making the right move. You could probably study up on Agrotech. With your parents farming experience and your interest in programming, you could do a lot in farming advancements.

[quartz fulcrum]

i'll think about it

[finite mulch]

Hi, I'm Mason.
New here.
I'm a python backend developer... Though not that solid yet.
I was hoping if anyone could help with a site or app or course for Django tutorial .
?

[peak relic]

I like the Django Docs but I hear people like the 2 scoops of Django book

[mossy sigil]

flask is better for a beginner right?

[finite mulch]

These are accessible in the Django website?

[finite mulch]

Oh I've actually worked with FASTAPI... I decided to switch to Django.

[peak relic]

I personally prefer learning Flask for any new Python devs first. Django has a steep learning curve. So after learning Flask and understanding what files does what and how each plays a part, learning Django then makes sense.

[mossy sigil]

true, thanks for replying

[brittle merlin]

Is django worth learning? I'm currently learning basic web development (html css js)

I've made several projects with flask In the past for college

[peak relic]

Only the Django docs is on their website. The book, 2 scoops of django, you would have to buy.

[inland karma]

the django docs are fantastic

django has also evolved faster than authors writing books

[peak relic]

Its still worth learning

[brittle merlin]

Mango

[quartz fulcrum]

what opencv can do and what tensorflow can do?

[mossy sigil]

Hey just some advice. In programming, it's better for your long term prospects to stop thinking about whether a framework is worth learning or not and just learn things. Ideally, learn foundational things and then apply them in frameworks where they make sense. You'll find that things you did 4 years ago that you thought were useless then turn out to be a major breakthrough in some project.

[inland karma]

so.. even though, two scoops of django and a wedge of django are fantastic tutorial books and great education resources, you will have to use older django versions

if you are fine with learning an old version, and moving along to a newer version, i wholeheartily recommend them

[brittle merlin]

yep sounds like a less frustrating and fun path

[prime mountain]

I want to code but I need to sleep

[mossy sigil]

Prioritise sleep.

[prime mountain]

Okay

[inland karma]

the former is computer vision, the latter is a large ecosystem for writing machine learning

[peak relic]

opencv handles images and videos. tensorflow builds machine learning models.

[quartz fulcrum]

ok..

[inland karma]

though, nobody uses tensorflow anymore

[quartz fulcrum]

why

[inland karma]

its outdated

its like using python2

well youtubers that dont work with machine learning, try to teach tensorflow to people. so i guess someone use it. but not people that actually work with it.

[brittle merlin]

mainly used for learning

[mossy sigil]

You guys still use maths in machine learning or is that outdated too?

[pallid garden]

maths is never outdated

[mossy sigil]

Ok i'll add /s next time.

[swift sparrow]

we've all moved onto math 2 now

[pallid garden]

i got wooooshed...

[wicked comet]

Nvm

[inland karma]

what,. math 2.0 released! 😄

[mossy sigil]

Oh yeah! Math 2, did they remove the Thinking module from that one?

[quartz fulcrum]

math2 ?

[swift sparrow]

it was a joke

[quartz fulcrum]

oh

[shy granite]

why are there SO MANY vibe-coded repositories on github now

screams

[brittle merlin]

"vibe" coding

what vibes are people even catching nowadays?

[shy granite]

they finna catch these hands /j

[deft pelican]

cheese.

[dry pike]

nowadays, more like nowajay

[brittle merlin]

If I'm serious about a programming project,

Is it okay to use modules generated entirely by AI without knowing how they work?,

[half pewter]

"they used to call me BJ but I was like... nope, not good enough, I shall be AJ henceforth!"

[brittle merlin]

not the whole program but just parts of it, utilities, helper functions, parsers etc..

[half pewter]

that used to be a normal nickname...

[swift sparrow]

are you doing the project to learn or because you just care about the end result?

[brittle merlin]

well

I wanna learn and I am learning but

I equally care about the result

[swift sparrow]

then that's for you to decide

[brittle merlin]

and In this case I am kinda in control of the result

[brittle merlin]

It's an unknown feeling really

[bronze dragon]

"okay" according to whom, for what purpose?
like if you care about learning something, then obviously using AI with no understanding for parts of the project will necessarily lead to reduced learning.
if you care about just getting something made, that's still suboptimal because you know less about your program, hence the correctness of the result and your ability to extend and debug the program is also reduced.

[swift sparrow]

if you present your work to people and say "I made this but btw AI did most of it", then would you proud of saying that?

[bronze dragon]

you don't need permission from us to use AI, but you should consider how it affects what you're aiming for

[swift sparrow]

would you proudly tell people you used AI or try and hide it?

[brittle merlin]

I mean everyone refers to AI atleast at some point of the project, suppose u come accross a snippet that looks perfect to you, fits all your requirements, would u just ignore it?

[swift sparrow]

I almost never just blindly take code and put it in my project

AI or not

[celest osprey]

^

[brittle merlin]

I mean I also take a look at it before anything but when u copy paste u obviously didn't type it urself

[swift sparrow]

but it's rare that the exact code I need for my project just exists in its complete form

[brittle merlin]

I would say I took help?

[bronze dragon]

"everyone" is too much...
but as for myself, yes, I do use AI to draft code and do research (i.e. to correlate information that's scattered across the net that would be time-consuming to gather myself).
and if it works, it works. it increases productivity for me.
but my needs and how I use it, is different from your needs and how you use it.

[swift sparrow]

I'm usually learning about the idea behind it and implementing it myself in a way that works for my own code

[bronze dragon]

you said, "use modules generated entirely by AI without knowing how they work".
I would never put in code if I don't know how it works.

[swift sparrow]

Would you be proud in telling people this?

or would you rather make something you can proudly say you made 100% of

[half pewter]

I feel like, as long as you own the code, it doesn't really matter. I might include a comment or footnote that AI was used for review or something but I don't think it would matter to a technically literate audience.

[brittle merlin]

Like it reminds me of that really long one liner that I worte in my project and its shameful 😭😭👍

[brittle merlin]

😭

[swift sparrow]

I think it was more to address their concerns of "is it ok if I..."

[bronze dragon]

I mean, getting help in your project is not inherently bad... it's what we do here, after all.

but getting help != vibecoding / using code without understanding

[swift sparrow]

especially since we don't tend to give out full snippets of code here to help people

we help people work through the problem

I'm working blindly through some game code right now and I'm sure I'm making some mistakes, but I'm excited to get to the end of it so I can look back and see what worked and what didn't

[half pewter]

The thing about vibecoding is that once you learn what it's all actually doing you recognize how bloated it usually is

[mossy sigil]

No dude, it's just like the invention of a compiler or the garbage collector! /s

I shouldn't be like this, it breaks rule 54, 55 and 40 of the SQLite Code of Ethics. Please accept my apologies.

[shy granite]

[mossy sigil]

can you vibe a symphony?

[shy granite]

symphonies are generally a vibe.

[half pewter]

I'm not sure what you're asking me, I expect chatgpt would import half a dozen libraries and do what it does. Whether you'd call it a symphony would probably depend on your taste in music.

[mossy sigil]

well i was trying to be funny but ig i have failed, its alright, i will get another chance

[golden mortar]

You can't vibe code a symphony, because no true symphony would be vibe coded.

[half pewter]

an agentic symphony perhaps

[pallid garden]

can you ansible a symphony

[ocean ridge]

zehata can u help me refactor the code

i have been working on a project (web project) without any ai

[pallid garden]

sorry, im working on something myself

apologies

[ocean ridge]

oh alright

[ocean ridge]

you dont realize it when vibe coding but ai does a lot of stupid things

like it beats around the bush for a lot of things.

theres an easy direct solution but the ai constructs a long ahh output to accomplish the same

[pallid garden]

why do I need AI when I already construct long ahh output myself

[bronze dragon]

I would be interested in seeing a self-critiquing mode where if it doesn't know it just says as much instead of cooking up some plausible BS code that doesn't work

[pallid garden]

if i understand tool calling correctly, that's what claude's loop already does, isnt it?

[bronze dragon]

hmmmm

[golden mortar]

Newer tools and models will self-critique to some extent, but it's never infallible.

I think you just shouldn't stop reviewing the output.

[bronze dragon]

of course

[golden mortar]

But I mean, compared to before, the output is so much better on average

It used to be kind of a waste of time to use it for anything other than like exploring solutions or research, but now it's basically fine to let it do almost all the heavy lifting and just make corrections after the fact.

[bronze dragon]

hmmm, I still see hallucinations with more obscure technologies
so I still just use it for research assistance

[ocean ridge]

i see hallucinations when it tries to develop a basic website

like the code quality is mid.

[golden mortar]

It depends a lot on how you prompt, as well as what model and tool you use.

[brittle merlin]

lmfao this reminds me of my college project that I vibe coded using antigravity, instead of using matplotlib it used some random image library, made pixel coordinates for each and every alphabet and number and hacked together graphs, it was so many lines

[pallid garden]

AI produces good result: AI is making you more productive
AI produces bad result: you are using it wrong

[wicked comet]

Correct

100% agree

[brittle merlin]

AI produces bad results: ur too poor to afford claude

/j *

[golden mortar]

I mean, it depends. There are inherent limitations to what it can do. But the methodology of the user does affect the quality of the result. Both of those are true at the same time.

[pallid garden]

it's not so much whether it's right or wrong, it's the fact that some people's attitude towards this topic is "AI is infallible"

[bronze dragon]

well, if you examined it I doubt their attitude would really be that it's infallible

but more like, they manage to use it productively, so they're inclined to assume that if someone else doesn't get productive results, there must be something to improve in how they use it
which is not an unfair assumption, at least as an initial one

[golden mortar]

I'm against absolutism in either direction. When Veltrix says that they get a bad outcome developing a basic website, I believe them, but I do think it's a task that falls within the realm of what's doable with modern tools and models if you employ them correctly. But I don't imply that any task does.

[pallid garden]

it wouldnt be as frustrating to discuss this topic if everyone presents nuanced points like you do

[golden mortar]

Understandable.

[paper kiln]

Have you heard about Cosmo TUI

[frank sorrel]

hello??

[ocean ridge]

hi

[frank sorrel]

hi how are you?

i can't understand what dictionaries are can you please explain me

[ocean ridge]

fine. this is #python-discussion . so if you have anyhting related to python you can talk here

[ocean ridge]

oh yeah.

[frank sorrel]

please tell me how they work

[ocean ridge]

lemme give you an example

[jaunty dune]

hello

[ocean ridge]

user = {
"name":"Beast",
"age": 20,
"language":"python"
}

you see this. its a dict.

[frank sorrel]

ohh soooo

[ocean ridge]

if you want to see the name of user... you can type

print(user["name"])

and dicts can be nested too

[languid token]

Hey, I am currently learning python using the cs50 Harvard program, but i know how to write code using the tutorials, but when it comes to their problem sets i really struggle a lot and find myself seeking ai assistance, i want to be able to do it myself any help?? I'll appreciate it

[frank sorrel]

that is just one variable with a dictionary of discriptions??? i could put it that way right i get now though

[jaunty dune]

dictionaries are basically how you would store key-value data. example

dict = {
"var1": "value of var1",
"var2": "value of var2",
"var3": "value of var3",
}

[frank sorrel]

yeah yeah i get it now @veltrix thankyou and @janford thank you too

[ocean ridge]

key is like the name of the variable. and data is the ceontent inside the variable

for example

a = beast

key here is a. value is beast

[frank sorrel]

okayy thanks so much

[jaunty dune]

yep

[frank sorrel]

yep i get it now

[ocean ridge]

its usually combined with json

you can store dicts as json

[bronze dragon]

Hi. I think one thing to keep in mind is that the problem sets are designed such that you should be able to do them without AI assistance. So the knowledge provided in the lectures is enough to solve them if you think and apply it.
What do you use AI assistance for, precisely? Is it to explain the problem to you? Or to generate the solution?

[ocean ridge]

user = {
    "info": {
        "name": "Beast",
        "age": 20
    },
    "skills": {
        "language": "python"
    }
}

[frank sorrel]

by the way iam learning python through bro code but sometimes i get really confused what do i do

[jaunty dune]

use the json library

[frank sorrel]

🙂 thanks for the really good help @ocean ridge

[raven cairn]

hello ppl

[ocean ridge]

this is a nested dict. if u want to access name, you can do so by

print(user["info"]["name"])

and you would get value as Beast

[jaunty dune]

nice. ill keep that in mind

[raven cairn]

can someone help me

[jaunty dune]

yes

[raven cairn]

i want to learn how to code but idk where to start, u got any tips?

[jaunty dune]

id start by learning how the syntax works. then what modules are pre-imported (like, builtin modules. example: builtins.pyi)

[slender urchin]

Pick up a tutorial or book to learn the basics.

!slorb

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[raven cairn]

ive watched a few tutorials still dont understand how am i supposed to start on training and such

[languid token]

both actually since I come across problem sets that have some of the concepts taught but they have another concept on top that wasn't mentioned in the lecturers, some are in the python documentations, but i feel overwhelmed when reading them. Can you help me get past this

[raven cairn]

should i just watch videos or is there somewhere i can practice what i learn

[jaunty dune]

codewars

[slender urchin]

Don't just watch them, follow along with them in your editor

[bronze dragon]

what's an example of such a concept?

some are in the python documentations, but i feel overwhelmed when reading them
that's normal. an important part of reading documentation is being able to strategically ignore parts of it. you shouldn't aim to, at your level, understand everything written in there. that will overwhelm you. only aim to extract useful information for your immediate task.

[bronze dragon]

why do you want to learn programming? is it to make something?

[raven cairn]

just so you know, i know almost nothing about coding

[slender urchin]

we all started knowing nothing

[raven cairn]

it seems fun and will help me out in the future, if i get good at it maybe ill get a job or something invloving coding to use my skillls

[slender urchin]

That's why the tutorials I linked start assuming you know nothing.

[raven cairn]

thank u

[frank sorrel]

@ocean ridge you there??

@janford do you know python how long you been learnin

[jaunty dune]

id also reccommend that you set a simple goal for a coding project, like a simple calculator or automation

[jaunty dune]

since i was 11 yo i thnk i forgot

[frank sorrel]

ohhh thats cool

but check it out i got how disctionaries work

[raven cairn]

if i want to follow along on tutorials on videos and such, where should i write my the codes and such?

[frank sorrel]

dang it can't upload pictures

[raven cairn]

do i need an app or website or where do i go

[jaunty dune]

VSCode

[frank sorrel]

really i would recommend pycharm

[languid token]

I had a unit on introduction to programming with python and during that unit I saw how some students were able to build cool projects and i got interested, now i want to lean more into the tech side of my course instead of the technical side i feel like I am drawn more into programming, right now I know the syntax, loops, data types and I can write basic programs, once i got to libraries, packages and API calls I started being overwhelmed and I decided to look for people to help me but I'm bad at real life socializing

[bronze dragon]

you would use a programmer's text editor. Thonny is a good choice for beginners, but really any text editor works

[raven cairn]

what is a text editor

[frank sorrel]

vscode has ai assistant and all so it may be good

[bronze dragon]

you can ask and talk about Python here
(it's also a better idea to ask here compared to AI)

[slender urchin]

A program/app that modifies text

[bronze dragon]

that's kind of a negative from a beginner's perspective...

[slender urchin]

The most basic one you might know is notepad

[frank sorrel]

i mean i don't use it i use pycharm and iam happy with it

[raven cairn]

i know notepad

[bronze dragon]

imagine typing the start of a function on your assignment and Copilot fills in the rest automatically. learning opportunity ruined.

[jaunty dune]

and notepad++ is a step-up from that

[frank sorrel]

soul reason to leave v s code was because of the freakin ai system

[jaunty dune]

fr 😭

[slender urchin]

If you dislike it, it's a single option to turn it off

[bronze dragon]

programming text editors are like notepad, but with various features to make them more useful for programming.

[raven cairn]

alrightt

[frank sorrel]

i know there is but if i had to turn it off pycharm s ui is better looking for me

[raven cairn]

ill check out vscode

[frank sorrel]

@jeyjey are you not learning through a course or tutorial

[jaunty dune]

i use an older version due to compability so i had no prob with AI

[frank sorrel]

yeah that makes sense too

[raven cairn]

coding just became my intereset, i watched a few yt tutorials, but thats about it

[jade robin]

lmao the solution is

def f(a,b,c,d):
   x1 = max(i for p,q in a)*2
   x2 = {p for ((a1,b1),c1) in zip(a, c)}
...

copilot won't have a clue

[frank sorrel]

watch dave grey if you wanna learn in detail bro code if you wanna learn quicker

[raven cairn]

let me at least learn the basics for now

[frank sorrel]

coding is a good interest you should not leave it

[frank sorrel]

they are for absolute beginners 🙂

[raven cairn]

thats why i started to actully go through witht the learning

[raven cairn]

oh okey thank

[frank sorrel]

i just start learning 1 month ago too

[raven cairn]

nice

[soft linden]

What is vibe coding

[frank sorrel]

using ai assistants to code without having to code most of it yourselves

[pallid garden]

do you think it would be too difficult to understand an rpg if all characters act at the same time?

[frank sorrel]

you just gotta do debugging fix code and thats all you just relax and watch ai do the work not a good thing for beginners though cause they are gonna get exhausted anyways

[frank sorrel]

what?

[pallid garden]

like a turn based rpg

[languid token]

def main():
names = []
while True:
try:
name = input("Name: ")
names.append(name)
except EOFError:
break
main()
This is an example of a problem set i was working on, the instructions wanted me to prompt the user for a name until they pressed ctl + D but i didn't know how to write ctrl + D in a program so i had to look it up and found out it was a EOFError , now I'm stuck, i want to make it such that if the user enters 3 names it returns the first 2 names separated with a comma and the third and second name separated with an and, such scenarios is where i feel stuck, since i know the last item in the list can be accessed by -1 but i don't know how to continue

[pallid garden]

but instead of characters performing actions one by one, they all fire at the same time per turn

[frank sorrel]

yeah if you'r talking about a video game than it would be difficult never really a fan of turned based rpg's though

no i think all doing action at the same time would not be good

you can make it harder by increasing the speed of how quickly they perform their actions

[jade robin]

i like turn based rpgs, i wouldn't mind if a group of players/chars play in a single turn

[pallid garden]

i was thinking of how to convey all of these actions happening every turn visually without making things too cluttered

[frank sorrel]

@pallid garden what game engine are you using?? iam also learning ue5

[pallid garden]

im just playing around with the elemental system now

so it's just cli

[soft linden]

What is vibe coding

[jade robin]

does it look like a mess

[frank sorrel]

what is that a python based engine??

[bronze dragon]

the instructions wanted me to prompt the user for a name until they pressed ctl + D but i didn't know how to write ctrl + D in a program so i had to look it up and found out it was a EOFError
that's good.
if the user enters 3 names it returns the first 2 names separated with a comma and the third and second name separated with an and, such scenarios is where i feel stuck, since i know the last item in the list can be accessed by -1 but i don't know how to continue
well, I assume you can write the "if the user enters 3 names", using if and len
and you can access the nth element of the list lst using lst[n]
and you can add strings using + as "hello" + "world" -> "helloworld"

[pallid garden]

no, as in im only working on the logic now

[pallid garden]

i would think so

[frank sorrel]

oh okay

[bronze dragon]

how would "race conditions" (for lack of a better term) be handled?
like if A fires an attack that would kill B, does B's action that turn get to happen? why, or why not?

[jade robin]

you can probably serialize them with only the interacting ones acting together (and no one can make a move until the sequence completes) maybe

[jade robin]

some games handle this by stalling B's death

[pallid garden]

im combining the actions, so e.g. if 2 characters drain the sp from the enemy, but the enemy does not have enough sp, the sp gets divided by their individual contribution

[bronze dragon]

I see

[pallid garden]

hmm it might make sense to display actions performed targetting a single enemy, in each visual "step"

[frank sorrel]

anybody ever tried ursina engine?

[languid token]

I've gotten the part of using if statement to access the list length using the len function, but lets say we get a user's input and the user exits the loop after 6 inputs , how does accessing the nth element help me place the commas on the first 4 elements and an and between the last 2

[bronze dragon]

hmmm, I think the str.join function would be useful to you. as well as the concept of "slicing". look it up.

although you can do it without these concepts as well. do you know how to run a loop?

[slender urchin]

Haven't tried it, but I've seen someone use it for a minecraft clone, looked fun

[dry basin]

hey guys

[languid token]

you gave me an idea let me try it out and see if I'll get it right

[frank sorrel]

its gonna be way more complicated iam gonna keep it to unreal engine 5

@slender urchin do you have any game dev intersets??

interests*

[slender urchin]

I do have interests, but time is limited

[frank sorrel]

hmmmm i mean iam learning python and ue5 in the part time iam vibing

i mean my lifes going good for now in terms of learning and creating

[ocean ridge]

u can use axiom too

https://github.com/adyanthm/axiom-desktop/releases

it has no ai enabled and has an lsp too. debugger is also there if u want to debug something

[ocean ridge]

the video that eivl spams whenever someone says python is not for gamedev?

[kind dust]

Hey, does anyone here understand how to code and understand resursive functions?

[inland karma]

nah, i raw dogged it. did not use ursina or anything like that

[inland karma]

do you have a question about a recursive function

[bronze dragon]

many people do
just ask your question, we can help

[kind dust]

Well, I have practice hw for it, but I am struggling to understand how to code them. Like I've seen how factorial or fibonacci can be coded with recursion, but I don't understand how it works. I've also been shown how to do selection sort with recursion

[spiral karma]

Hi, can someone recommend me a good discord bot host with a big memory? ( I would preffer it to be cheap )

[lean lantern]

basically recursive functions call themselves inside the function. For example:

[bronze dragon]

it takes a while.
it helps to think of recursion as "reducing + combining". you reduce the problem to a simpler instance, and eventually combine them into the full solution.
this means that recursion works well for problems that can be easily broken down into simpler versions of themselves: Fibonacci is defined in terms of its prior terms. the factorial n! is just n multiplied by the smaller factorial (n-1)!.

[lean lantern]

for factorial you mentionned that it uses recursivity. This means that, if the number isn't 1 or 0 (your base cases), your function will calculate the factorial(n) based on factorial(n-1) until it reaches base case 0 or 1

[bronze dragon]

that's the conceptual part.
as for the mechanics of recursive function calls, think of each function call as independent.
if you're unsure of how the return values flow in a recursive call, then that suggests you might need to work a little bit on your understanding of functions itself.

[native coyote]

🫨

look at thsi emoji

[kind dust]

Maybe I do, all I do know is that return suggests an accessor that gives a value u can store in a variable. Idk if it's the right way of saying it, but Ig my knowledge is elementary compared to y'all

That's exactyl why i need some guidance

[bronze dragon]

hmmm, what do you mean by "accessor"?
it just gives back a value

[kind dust]

Well, I learned abt mutator and accessor methods

when I did java

[bronze dragon]

I see

[celest breach]

Do you know how a program's call stack works by keeping track of function calls? I'd say it's pretty important to know how that works to fully understand recursive functions @kind dust

[spice hill]

Consider this: ```py
def f(x):
if x > 100:
return f(-x)
else:
return x + 1

print(f(5))
print(f(200))

[kind dust]

hmm, I was looking at an article emphasizing thishttps://dev.to/gustavupp/the-recursion-explanation-i-wish-i-had-read-as-a-self-taught-developer-3g4p

Do u think it's worth reading fully?

[lean lantern]

yes totally

[celest breach]

Looks like a decent article, I'd say so yes

As long as you understand javascript

[lean lantern]

even if you don't understand Javascript completely, it does explain call stacks pretty well

[kind dust]

f(5) would return 6. I figured that since its < 100, it will skip the recursive step. f(200) im not too sure but I am aware it will run the recursive stuff

[spice hill]

What if instead of calling f(-x), it was this? ```py
def other_function(x):
if x > 100: return other_function(-x)
else: return x + 1

def f(x):
if x > 100: return other_function(-x)
else: return x + 1

[lean lantern]

look, f(200) is going to use the first (recursive) case. if x>100, it return f(-x), so in this case it return f(-200). since -200<100, its simply going to return -200+1, so -199

[kind dust]

print(f(200))
Oh wait, it should print -199 like what @lean lantern said

So it does the same thing?

[spice hill]

Right, it's going to call other_function(-200), which is going to take the "else" branch in other_function, and return -199.

[spice hill]

does it make more sense why this prints 6 and -199 now?

[lean lantern]

now if we try:
def random_function(x):
if x<10:
return x+1
else:
return f(x-1)
print(random_function(11))

[kind dust]

ohhhh, is it basically reitirating here? like since 200 is greater than 100, it will go in f(-200) and the function runs again and again (or goes back to the top with new parameters) until x <= 100?

[kind dust]

Lemme check thsi one now

[lean lantern]

exactly, it will run the recursivity until it reaches the base case

[kind dust]

Okay, so it starts with f(11), then f(10), then f(9), then 10?

[spice hill]

Maybe it will make more sense with a more sensible function. Have you covered lists and isinstance already?

[kind dust]

lists like arrays? isinstance I'm not familiar with at all

[spice hill]

[1, 2, 3] <-- this is called a list in Python

!e
isinstance is a function that checks if an object is of a particular type: ```py
print(isinstance(42, int))
print(isinstance(42, str))
print(isinstance("banana", str))

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | True
002 | False
003 | True

[kind dust]

Yeah, I've seen this before

[kind dust]

I see, it returns true if datatype matches

[static plank]

am i able to ask a general programming question here to keep it to #1035199133436354600

[lean lantern]

yep exactly

[cobalt flax]

How could I like

open an image

actually ima ask python help

[lean lantern]

There is one case that is a bit confusing:
print(isinstance(42, (int, str)))

This will also return true because 42 is an int (but not a str). However, only one of the two datatypes has to be matching to return True

[brittle merlin]

oww

[celest osprey]

or even str | int

[kind dust]

I see, like an 'or'

[velvet trout]

union operator seems better than a tuple

Unless ya on 3.9

[lean lantern]

yep

[spice hill]

In order to understand recursion in programming, I think you should have a solid understanding of recursion outside of programming. Recursion is a general tool for solving a problem in terms of itself. For example, you might want to define an algorithm to know if a positive number is power of two. You could do it like this:

1. Is the number exactly 1? If so, it is a power of two (2**0 == 1)
2. Is the number odd but not 1? If so, it is not a power of two.
3. Otherwise (the number is even): if half the number is a power of two, then the original number is a number of two.

For example, if you want to know if 24 is a power of two:

is 24 a power of 2?
3. 24 is even, so we need to ask if 24/2 is a power of two...
    is 12 a power of 2?
    3. 12 is even, so we need to ask if 12/2 is a power of two...
        is 6 a power of 2?
        3. 6 is even, so we need to ask if 6/2 is a power of two...
            is 3 a power of 2?
            2. 3 is odd and not 1, therefore 3 is not a power of two
        ...6/2 is not a power of two, therefore 6 is not a power of 2
    ...12/2 is not a power of two, therefore 12 is not a power of 2
...24/2 is not a power of two, therefore 24 is not a power of 2
``` So it's not like you are jumping around in the same algorithm, it's just that one of the steps involves also asking the same question for a different value. You don't keep going forever, because at some point you can answer one of the questions without recursing further (which is called the "base case").

You can always rewrite a recursive function as a loop. Sometimes it's easy, but sometimes it's very hard. For example, here's a function that adds up a list of either integers or lists. The individual lists in turn contain either integers or lists, and those lists are the same, and so on. For example py print(add_up([1, 2, [3, 4], [[[[5]], 6]]])) # prints 21 here's how you could do it with recursion: py def add_up(a_list): total = 0 for item in a_list: if isinstance(item, int): total += item else: total += add_up(item) return total this time, we need to "ask" what add_up of a sub-list is several times for a single call

[kind dust]

I see

[kind dust]

Sorry, took too long for me to grasp the code tho, but I understand it now. Imma go apply the stuff here to analyse how my example functions work. Thanks for the help y'all. I don't think anyone could've explained it better🙏

[hybrid nebula]

fun fact: every instance of recursion gets rewritten as a loop at some point

CPUs can only handle 'loops', they don't really have a concept of recursion (or, for that matter, functions)

with modern branch prediction there is a tiny chance it might even, but it still has to act like it doesn't

[cobalt flax]

what do dunders mean

like i scroll through the dot methods after something in pycharm and i see a bunch of stuff with dunders on both sides

[hybrid nebula]

dunders generally mean 'this name has some special meaning inside the Python interpreter'

It doesn't mean anything more specific, if you give us the names we can tell you what they mean in particular

For objects, quite a lot of them specify what built-in functions (str, repr, iter) or operators (+, <<, !=) do when applied to them

[cerulean ravine]

btw, usually we say "dunder" only for names with double underscores on both sides. We wouldn't say __name is a dunder.

[hybrid nebula]

_name just means 'private'
__name has... special treatment (don't use this unless you are aware)
__name__ is a dunder

[spice hill]

Maybe they should've been called quadrunders

[eternal glen]

ddunders

[brisk gazelle]

Dunder methods are more formally known as "special methods".

Dunder is more of a nickname.

[eternal glen]

I've usually heard magic methods

is that dated?

[brisk gazelle]

Another common nickname.

[cerulean ravine]

the docs call them special methods. I never liked "magic" because it seems to imply that you can't understand them.

[eternal glen]

mmm

[silver plover]

rednunder

[hybrid nebula]

if ⎕__name__ == '⎕__main__'

[hybrid nebula]

'internal methods'?

[slender urchin]

!charinfo ⎕

[edgy kraken]

Character Info

\u2395 : APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL QUAD - ⎕

[slender urchin]

Oh it's wider, i thought it was a character that didn't render lol

[spice hill]

https://docs.python.org/3/glossary.html

dunder
An informal short-hand for “double underscore”, used when talking about a special method. For example, __init__ is often pronounced “dunder init”.
special method
A method that is called implicitly by Python to execute a certain operation on a type, such as addition. Such methods have names starting and ending with double underscores. Special methods are documented in Special method names.

[hybrid nebula]

note that not all dunders are methods!

[spice hill]

yeah, __name__ and such exist

[hybrid nebula]

__file__, __all__, etc

[spice hill]

__debug__ is a keyword

[hybrid nebula]

wait what

[spice hill]

!e

__debug__ = 69

[edgy kraken]

:x: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 1.

001 |   File "/home/main.py", line 1
002 |     __debug__ = 69
003 |     ^^^^^^^^^
004 | SyntaxError: cannot assign to __debug__

[eternal glen]

it's unfortunate that none of the common nicknames fully capture the nature of these specially named things

a real blunder

[hybrid nebula]

is that in

[slender urchin]

blundermethods

[cerulean ravine]

we already have a word: "special methods"

[hybrid nebula]

!d keyword

[edgy kraken]

keyword

Source code: Lib/keyword.py

This module allows a Python program to determine if a string is a keyword or soft keyword.

[hybrid nebula]

this doesn't include __debug__

[spice hill]

a dunder blunder, one might say

[narrow yew]

you don't usually call them directly; instead, they’re triggered by syntax like obj + other

[spice hill]

h 🤔 🤔

[hybrid nebula]

an additional part of the joke is that ⎕ in APL has a similar meaning to dunders in Python

[slender urchin]

the shoe company?

[hybrid nebula]

e.g. ⎕IO specifying the index of the first element in an array (0 for zero-indexing, 1 for one-indexing etc.)

[hybrid nebula]

?

what shoe company

[slender urchin]

It's also a different error than when trying to assign to a keyword

[slender urchin]

apl

[narrow yew]

total dunderblunder

[spice hill]

>>> True = 42
  File "<python-input-44>", line 1
    True = 42
    ^^^^
SyntaxError: cannot assign to True
>>> __debug__ = 42
  File "<python-input-45>", line 1
    __debug__ = 42
    ^^^^^^^^^
SyntaxError: cannot assign to __debug__
>>>

[hybrid nebula]

APL the language

[narrow yew]

Python treats debug like a constant

[slender urchin]

!e for = 3

[edgy kraken]

:x: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 1.

001 |   File "/home/main.py", line 1
002 |     for = 3
003 |         ^
004 | SyntaxError: invalid syntax

[narrow yew]

so trying to overwrite it is just asking for a syntaxerror

[spice hill]

https://docs.python.org/3/library/constants.html#built-in-constants
so it looks like:

• True, False, None are keywords and you cannot assign those names
• NotImplemented, Ellipsis are not keywords and you can redefine them
• __debug__ is not a keyword, but you cannot redefine it

[hybrid nebula]

what is __debug__?

[narrow yew]

it's pretty weird that debug isn't a keyword but still acts like a locked constant

[spice hill]

exactly

[hybrid nebula]

why is that not in the keyword module wtf

[spice hill]

I think this is because of what stage True, False, None and __debug__ are "keywordified". They are initially parsed as names, but later a restriction is applied that you cannot use those names like that.

[slender urchin]

I'm surprised to learn that they are considered keywords tbh

[hybrid nebula]

aren't all keywords parsed as names at some point

[spice hill]

no idea

but that's my caveperson explanation

[narrow yew]

debug is a built-in constant that's usually True, but it flips to False if you run python with optimizations

[brisk gazelle]

I expect they're keywordified so they can't be shadowed.

Maybe, maybe not. I've always found it curious.

[spice hill]

yeah, they should be keywords

[narrow yew]

Well, debug isn't a keyword, but the compiler just hard-blocks any assignment to it.

[slow rivet]

I guess they are suppose to behave like literals while looking like names

[spice hill]

weird that NotImplemented and Ellipsis aren't, is what I meant

[pliant wave]

hello guys

[narrow yew]

greetings

[narrow yew]

python just has some strange legacy

[spice hill]

In Python 2, __debug__ cannot be assigned to (which makes sense), but True, False can. So it was changed in Python 3, which is why I'm surprised that NotImplemented and Ellipsis didn't get that treatment

[narrow yew]

it's definitely a weird leftover from the python 3 migration

True, False, and None were promoted to keywords for a massive speed boost

[hybrid nebula]

I wonder how many people don't know -O is a thing

I shall now assert __debug__ in every file to change absolutely nothing

[twilit viper]

I don’t think it was really about a speed boost, making True, False, and None keywords was mainly to prevent reassignment and clean up the semantics from Python 2.

[narrow yew]

since it only really affects assert statements and debug blocks, most people just leave it alone and never realize it's there

[brisk gazelle]

How do you mean?

Is there some bitwise significance?

It evaluates to 0.

[slender urchin]

-O the option for running python

[brisk gazelle]

Ooooh.

[slender urchin]

python -O my_file.py

[twilit viper]

lol yeah, -0 is one of those “exists but almost nobody uses it”

[narrow yew]

literally 0 impact

[hybrid nebula]

that's an O (Oscar) not 0 (Zero)

[brisk gazelle]

Yep yep.

[hybrid nebula]

0000h

[slender urchin]

You can even do -OO

[hybrid nebula]

(0x0000 in modern syntax)

[hybrid nebula]

does that break SLY?

[slender urchin]

no clue

[mortal hearth]

Have anyone solved strivers sheet ?

Is it good for dsa ?

[brisk gazelle]

Anything that trains your brain to think is liable to be good.

[spice hill]

🤓 Use of assert detected (S101)

[narrow yew]

how do you get the helper role?

[brisk gazelle]

See #roles.

[crisp jay]

>>> ... = 1
  File "<python-input-1>", line 1
    ... = 1
    ^^^
SyntaxError: cannot assign to ellipsis here. Maybe you meant '==' instead of '='?

[mossy sigil]

alt + f4

[bronze dragon]

not the ... object, but Ellipses itself

[narrow yew]

I’m on mobile

[bronze dragon]

!e Ellipses = 42

[edgy kraken]

:warning: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

[No output]

[brisk gazelle]

🗞️

[mossy sigil]

damn okay

[spice hill]

!e

print(Ellipsis)
Ellipsis = 69
print(Ellipsis)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | Ellipsis
002 | 69

[mossy sigil]

hold the power button for like a minute then

and then click shut down, it will give you the role

[narrow yew]

no.

[craggy trench]

works like python 2

[mossy sigil]

sorry i am probably breaking a rule, forgive me

[narrow yew]

it’s ok

[bronze dragon]

@narrow yew helpers are nominated and selected internally by staff. you can't apply to become a helper. the only thing you can do is to simply be helpful so you get noticed.

[pastel sluice]

yeah, please don't do things like this here.

we strive to be constructive.

[narrow yew]

thank you

[grand bramble]

make issue reports on the github and solve issues, most effective way and supports the community

[median pine]

Why cant python do math... 🙁

Im dying inside

[crisp jay]

>>> math.factorial(100)
93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000

[bronze dragon]

wdym?

[median pine]

Im just having issues with trig. i made a post about it in python help, im just complaining here

[bronze dragon]

it's not really Python-specific

floating-point systems (and the tradeoffs inherent to them) are common across programming languages

it's a fact of computer systems and how we represent floats more deeply

[mossy sigil]

print("hello besties")

[velvet trout]

Chat

I have a design crisis

[grand bramble]

how_are_you = input("How are you? ")

[velvet trout]

In a custom exception for option name conflicts, should the exception include the new option as well, or only the conflicting name and the existing option?

The new option is already passed by the caller when adding it, so they technically have access to it. However, including it in the exception could make debugging and error messages clearer, especially for third-party users.

Which approach is better?

[grand bramble]

explain

[velvet trout]

Done

[bronze dragon]

if it's a name conflict then it's the same name for both of them, no?

[velvet trout]

Yes, they have the same name in both option objects, but both options are not really the same, they can still have different field values even if name is same

[bronze dragon]

The relevant factor is the name, so I would question whether showing all the other field values is important

[velvet trout]

so i was wondering whether to pass new option object to exception class or not (caller as access the new option object since its the one passing new option object)

[velvet trout]

you're right

[bronze dragon]

I guess pass both, the catcher can decide

it's not any significant overhead to pass both

[velvet trout]

I just didn't want to make it clutter or too many redundant passes

ChatGPT also says pass new option too even if the caller has access to it

[velvet trout]

ema pass both

[bronze dragon]

catching site != calling site, necessarily

[velvet trout]

you're right

[charred tusk]

Some days I really hate Python

[gleaming marten]

😔

[charred tusk]

end_row = 2
while True:
  printer = str(worksheet.cell(row=end_row, column=1).value)
  if not printer.strip():
    break
  end_row += 1

ValueError: Row numbers must be between 1 and 1048576. Row number supplied was 1048577

Guess why?

[gleaming marten]

I see your problem

Its using openpyxl

[charred tusk]

Checking row 829208 for printer: printer='None'
Checking row 829209 for printer: printer='None'
Checking row 829210 for printer: printer='None'

[wise imp]

what about today?

[charred tusk]

Today is the day I am angry

Had a presentation

Went great

[wise imp]

is this a spreadsheet of like printer models or what?

[charred tusk]

User tried the app
everything blew up

[wise imp]

at least it wasn't a live demo

right?

[gleaming marten]

ofc it was a demo

Its the law, demos never go right

[charred tusk]

The live demo on Wednesday also blew up with this same error

[wise imp]

of course

[charred tusk]

I saw that

[ocean ridge]

saw what

[charred tusk]

I just thought I cocked something up and it wouldn't come back up
But now it did so I have to look
At least its an easy fix

[golden mortar]

Staff records all sent messages, just so you know

[gleaming marten]

Why do you hate python tho shen

Is it 1-based indexing in excel

[charred tusk]

Because I have to do this

(labkit) @shenanigansd ➜ /workspaces/labkit (main) $ git diff
diff --git a/packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py b/packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py
index 17edc3b..fff73a3 100644
--- a/packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py
+++ b/packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py
@@ -54,7 +54,7 @@ def process_art_for_domestic_master(
     end_row = 2
     while True:
         printer = str(worksheet.cell(row=end_row, column=1).value)
-        if not printer.strip():
+        if not printer.strip() or printer.strip() == "None":
             break
         end_row += 1
 

[wise imp]

!code

[edgy kraken]

Formatting code on Discord

Here's how to format Python code on Discord:

```py
print('Hello world!')
```

These are backticks, not quotes. Check this out if you can't find the backtick key.

For long code samples, you can use our pastebin.

[charred tusk]

Yeah IDK whats happening I get the preview

Oh I only had two backticks on the bottom
Weird

[ocean ridge]

but he isnt a staff 🙃

[pastel sluice]

it might be better to do this...

[bronze dragon]

I feel like you should delay the stringification

[pastel sluice]

  p = worksheet.cell(row=end_row, column=1).value
  ps = str(p)
  if not ps.strip() or p is None:

that way you can make the comparisons you need unambiguously, without each stepping on the other's toes

[wise imp]

what is this hungarian notation

[pastel sluice]

I've dealt with similar things, where I wanted to work with the string value of something and its underlying value, and the best solution is to handle each separately

[charred tusk]

OH I'm doing the str()
I glossed right over that

[charred tusk]

That if needs to be the other way around before you hit None has no strip()

[pastel sluice]

ok, but I think you get the idea?

[bronze dragon]

no, the .strip is being done on ps, which is a str

[charred tusk]

Oh I missed that too

man I need coffee

[pastel sluice]

but again - I think you see why this is the better way to do it

[ocean ridge]

can someone help me with refactoring my code

html and vanilla js. not python ^

[charred tusk]

#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval and #web-development

[ocean ridge]

k

[charred tusk]

Yeah

From a5c71879f0f0b9784046aba88bfc5eb71a59c62b Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Bradley Reynolds <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 1 May 2026 12:56:57 +0000
Subject: [PATCH] Account for printer='None'

Signed-off-by: Bradley Reynolds <[e-mail]>
---
 packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py | 5 +++--
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py b/packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py
index 17edc3b..458ccbc 100644
--- a/packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py
+++ b/packages/untw-labkit-cli/src/untw_labkit_cli/kerp_cli.py
@@ -53,8 +53,9 @@ def process_art_for_domestic_master(
     worksheet = workbook["MSTR"]
     end_row = 2
     while True:
-        printer = str(worksheet.cell(row=end_row, column=1).value)
-        if not printer.strip():
+        printer_value = worksheet.cell(row=end_row, column=1).value
+        printer_string_value = str(printer_value)
+        if printer_value is None or not printer_string_value.strip():
             break
         end_row += 1

Very dumb patch to have to make on day 1

[pallid garden]

diff wall...

[gleaming marten]

LMAO

[ocean ridge]

[e-mail]

[gleaming marten]

I had the exact same issue

[ocean ridge]

did bro doxx his mail?

[gleaming marten]

str(None) should not be "None" i dont care what anyone says

[stray oasis]

yo guys

anyone knows how to convert a python file to exe file?

[charred tusk]

Did that a long time ago
https://github.com/shenanigansd

[stray oasis]

anyone knows how to convert a python file to exe file?

[charred tusk]

Don't spam

[pastel sluice]

this is a common question, and the short answer is, you don't actually do this. you bundle your Python program with a copy of the Python runtime.

[ocean ridge]

pyinstaller

[stray oasis]

can u show me directly

[pastel sluice]

tools like PyInstaller do tihs for you, but they are very clunky. I actually wrote my own tool because I disliked how PyInstaller worked

[floral terrace]

use a compile language

[stray oasis]

like in vc

[pastel sluice]

@stray oasis are you familiar with how to use pip to install libraries, and set up a virtual environment for your program?
(you need to know these things before attempting to use any of these tools)

[stray oasis]

no sadly

[pastel sluice]

you'll need to learn about those things first.

[stray oasis]

can u teach me

im 15

i dont rlly know

[hybrid nebula]

bad idea, not recommended

[pastel sluice]

I can show you some resources about them, we don't do one-on-one tutoring

https://realpython.com/python-virtual-environments-a-primer/

[fathom vortex]

good evening fellas

[pastel sluice]

venvs, as they're called, are a really important tool for Python

[hybrid nebula]

if you want a .exe file, I'd heavily recommend using a language specifically designed with .exe files in mind (C# be mentioned, also C++, Go, Rust, Zig, and of course C and assembly if you really want to)

[fathom vortex]

why does one even want a .exe file

[hybrid nebula]

great question, probably because zipapps are obscure

[fathom vortex]

hmm

[pastel sluice]

it's a very common question. people who learn to program often want to share what they wrote with others, and sending them an executable is the commonly understood way to do that.

[fathom vortex]

fair

[hybrid nebula]

anyone who wants a .exe should first be forced to explain what a linker does

[pastel sluice]

and it's sometimes disappointing for people to discover Python doesn't have a strong story for redistributing apps standalone

[fathom vortex]

+1

[fathom vortex]

haha, happened for me. but eventually figured that I don't make consumer apps to begin with so it doesn't matter

[pastel sluice]

I dabble in making games, so I found out how to do it using my own tooling, and I got smaller and less flaky packages than with PyInstaller

[fathom vortex]

agreed

I once spent a weekend creating a little installer for me

it would unzip a portable python distrib and setup the python source files

[pastel sluice]

!pypi pydeploy-win this is my project

[edgy kraken]

pydeploy-win v0.1.2

allow pip installable Python programs to be deployed as standalone applications (currently only on Microsoft Windows)

Released on <t:1772468019:D>.

[fathom vortex]

you're also making use of the portable distrib?

[pastel sluice]

yes, it's a nice convenient way to deal with the problem

[fathom vortex]

sweet

[hybrid nebula]

!d zipapp

[edgy kraken]

zipapp

Added in version 3.5.

Source code: Lib/zipapp.py

This module provides tools to manage the creation of zip files containing Python code, which can be executed directly by the Python interpreter. The module provides both a Command-Line Interface and a Python API...

[fathom vortex]

known that its stdlib but never have I ever used that

[pastel sluice]

zipapp only works for pure Python stuff, though - my solution was intended to work for things that might also have binary components

[fathom vortex]

I'd rather walk through my friend getting python installed

[hybrid nebula]

basically python.jar

[fathom vortex]

lol

[pastel sluice]

end result is something you can just unpack, and click to run

[fathom vortex]

yup, my go to for consumer sided apps is just Rust / Go rn. (I am only starting out w Go)

(Yes, I don't know any other compiled languages beyond their basics)

[hybrid nebula]

I should get into C# but the developent experience on Windows is...

[fathom vortex]

lol

[hybrid nebula]

if you do know Rust tho, that's worse than like 90% of compiled languages

[fathom vortex]

I hear java has gotten pretty good lately

I mean, I like rust

or maybe I am just larping out of desperation, who knows

[hybrid nebula]

Java is actually improving which is not something I'd expect but I'm here for it

[fathom vortex]

haha yes

instant boilerplate generator is actually getting better (fireplace ref)

[pastel sluice]

"larping"?

[dull dune]

what does consumer mean there and what does go bring to the table for yrou usecase?

genuine curiosity

[fathom vortex]

its a term used frequently on twitter for "live action role playing" LARP-ing

[pastel sluice]

that I know, but its use in this context didn't make sense to me.

[fathom vortex]

hmm, I personally am new to this term lol

[fathom vortex]

consumer = end user is just your average joe (mostly)

[hybrid nebula]

here probably shilling a technology one doesn't use all that much

[dull dune]

as in application binaries you ship to customers?

[fathom vortex]

not sure if that's the right phrase

[dull dune]

maybe the go usecase question will help me understand?

[fathom vortex]

consumer apps can be in pure python too, but generally, how often do you see a consumer app shipping as source code

[fathom vortex]

I am a little confused, could you please rephrase that

[dull dune]

not rarely. source code has very little business value, its' not worth keeping a secret the vast majority of the time. the hinderance is that you don't want end users to hve to install third-party requirements, but you can package runtimes with yoru distribution sot hats' not such a large hurdle

[dull dune]

I'm curious how youur'e using go, what value you're finding in it for consumer programs

[fathom vortex]

source code is pretty major in business value basis what you're doing tho

[dull dune]

its' not

[fathom vortex]

I said this earlier but I am very very new to Go and generally I don't make consumer apps to begin with

[dull dune]

at least, it's actually not, but again businesses very often think it is

[fathom vortex]

everything I do is backend related

[hybrid nebula]

this really depends on how the app is structured

[dull dune]

that's what I'm asking, it sounds lik eyou're using go for things I haven't, and I'm curios how you're finding it

[hybrid nebula]

e.g. for web applications, the frontend code is usually not too important

[fathom vortex]

sorry, I'll rephrase it, I haven't used Go for consumer apps, but would like to try it out atleast once

[hybrid nebula]

but in single player video games, the source code is. all there is to a game

[dull dune]

and its' still not that valuable. the assets and game design are valuable. if it's a multiplayer game the service is valuable

take out thsoe things and no one cares about the source

rewrite the game from scracth and no one cares if those other things remain the same

[hybrid nebula]

if I publish a single player game for $4.99 on steam, and someone leaks the source code, I will probably make $4.99 in the remaining lifetime of the game

[fathom vortex]

the org I work with, the whole USP is our source code. recreating what we have is increadibly complex to the point that its easier to just not do it

Its a combination of source code and data

[dull dune]

so if a competitor got yoru source code they could just run it and provide just as much value as you do?

[dull dune]

ah, see

I gaurantee the data is the value

[fathom vortex]

data was generated as a result of the source code

and can be recreated in its entirety using just the source code

just that, its too large, ie, say 5~6 TB of postgres

[hybrid nebula]

a very good read I can recommend on the topic btw: https://www.joanwestenberg.com/the-hacker-news-tarpit/?

[dull dune]

if they leak the soruce code and all the assets

[pastel sluice]

yeah, the main attraction of HN isn't the code, but the commuinity and the fact that it's an existing center of gravity for discussion

[exotic depot]

Hmm

[pastel sluice]

software is easy, community is hard

[dull dune]

and that article supports my suggestion

[hybrid nebula]

the key sentence is imo

You can't build Place People Go as a feature. It's a thing that happened over time, through a specific and unrepeatable sequence of events, most of which were not planned and some of which were just luck.

[exotic depot]

What's going on chat

[hybrid nebula]

or, in this context,

You can't build a Product People Use as a feature

[pastel sluice]

I have very personal experience with this phenomenon

[tame vapor]

you built a place people go to ?

[pastel sluice]

yes, there's a small community I built that's for chat-based RPGs. I ran it for a long time, closed it down when I couldn't maintain it well anymore, and now I'm rebuilding it from the ground up. but the key thing is that many former users are coming back in, and without them there would be no point.

[tame vapor]

ooo very exciting

[exotic depot]

RPG game community??

[bronze dragon]

Game cracks exist even for games without leaked source code. The real question is whether the average consumer cares enough to go out of their way to get a cracked version with the risk of viruses and whatnot.
Now, whether the average consumer does do that is one that varies by target demographic and so on, but from what I understand, Steam et al has made it so that people are generally fine paying for games
Might be wrong, I'm not much of a gamer. But I'm sure you could find cracked versions of any game with enough torrenting.

[exotic depot]

Oh or a chat bot rpg game kinda confused

[pastel sluice]

it's for people, not chatbots

it's closed alpha right now, I am only bringing in people I know personally, and that's for the sake of my own sanity.

[exotic depot]

Oh it's a rpg game like sofi and karuta ??

[ashen cipher]

steam once again wins by absolutely nothing

[pastel sluice]

it's meant to be a framework where you run your own games, like roll20

[robust ledge]

Statistically, as shown by Valve, if your game is priced fairly across regions; more people will buy your game than will pirate it.

[hybrid nebula]

Also, someone get the EU study where it came out that piracy, for all media except blockbuster movies, actually increases demand for the 'legitimate' thing

[pastel sluice]

fair pricing is the best copy protection measure

[ashen cipher]

something something silksong something something

[hybrid nebula]

shaw

[dull dune]

yep, applies to al media, if you charge a price people perceive as roughly equal to th value tehy get from the product, they'd rather jsut buy it than faff wtih pirating

for some reason that's a lesson large publishers and producers just cannot learn

[exotic depot]

Oh get it , u r in it developing phase rn ...??

[dull dune]

instead of "I must not be efficiently allocating my budget to address the market" they instead think "I must not be investing enough in fighting piracy"

[hybrid nebula]

I'd argue most people who go through the ordeal of pirating media do so because they can't acquire it through legitimate means

[dull dune]

(nevermind "I should probably just reduce my margin", no one's ever thought that)

[pastel sluice]

yes - it's up and running, but it doesn't have the feature set I want yet. once it does, then it'll be open source and anyone can grab a copy and host an instance of it themselves (a la PHPBB or WordPress)

[dull dune]

there a way to see it/poke at it now?

[pastel sluice]

again, it's closed alpha, so not yet, but I shared screenshots some time ago

[exotic depot]

Oh i like to write code on this type of project but ik u r only adding close ppl in the project once it gets open source ...let me know maybe I wanna contribute that time too

[pastel sluice]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1217911476954726465/1482441535831281756/image.png?ex=69f59604&is=69f44484&hm=96a1c10ae136c42bbc52da257d14ee504c47f9194bcbf6ad2b4c28aae5c318a7&

(that's a slightly earlier rev screenshot, the sample data now actually has text for the posts and such)

[exotic depot]

Oh ic

[pastel sluice]

and yeah, to get back on topic, it's all Python

[crisp jay]

and having a full team of lawyers

[sudden basin]

Yo, guys is pygame site not opening for me is it same for anyone else?

[slender urchin]

works for me

[opal gull]

which pygame site

[slender urchin]

Oh the old pygame site doesn't work.

The pygame-ce site does

https://pyga.me

[sudden basin]

Official one ? The OG ?

[sudden basin]

It was working a couple of days ago?

[opal gull]

oh it's broken for me

[sudden basin]

Same

[opal gull]

you should use pygame ce anyway

[sudden basin]

Cant, doesnt run on phone

[hot glen]

astral still lives

[slender urchin]

I'm getting a dnsfailure

[shrewd pine]

It’s not DNS

There’s no way it’s DNS

[sudden basin]

I aint even getting that its just loading too long and doesnt say anything browser i mean