python-discussion

[inland karma]

just how the word hacking become the word we use today

[ashen cipher]

i know the difference between parameter and argument it just takes cognitive effort to me to distinguish

[ashen cipher]

chopping wood?

[inland karma]

cracking was changed to hacking, and now we all call it that

[ashen cipher]

:p

[chilly whale]

right down to a single person going out of their way to correct the phrase "comprised of" on thousands of wikipedia articles, heh

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/12/392568604/dont-you-dare-use-comprised-of-on-wikipedia-one-editor-will-take-it-out

[charred tusk]

Those Wikipedia editors are worse than Stack Overflow editors

[cerulean ravine]

there are so many examples of shifts if you've lived long enough to see them in action.

[inland karma]

arguments vs parameters the people that know the differences are exactly the people that are able to judge context to figure out what the content means

[cerulean ravine]

"reticent" used to mean "reluctant to speak" but now people are using it to mean reluctant.

[inland karma]

it means reluctant now.. i missed that

[cerulean ravine]

you'll hear it.

[charred tusk]

For example, the computer creates a "pick batch" to "pick" a "batch" of boxes from the warehouse.
So far so good.
Then for shipping, we scan the boxes, and print standard shipping labels in the SSCC format
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_shipping_container_code
But according to my shipping clerk, thats the "pick batch label"
No such label exists
The SSCC label doesn't reference the Pick Batch, its a whole different section of the system.
Clerk emailed support, support sent the email to me and said "we don't label Pick Batches..."

[inland karma]

ill try to keep that in mind... reluctantly 😄 😄

oh well.. i tried

[cerulean ravine]

even merriam-webster has it: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reticent

[chilly whale]

I only knew it to mean "reluctant" 😳

[cerulean ravine]

smh, kids these days 😄

[inland karma]

😄

[chilly whale]

I guess I'd have said it had a connotation of "shy", but I wouldn't have thought it was limited to speech

TIL

[charred tusk]

I've only ever heard that word like once
When I saw it my brain filled in "recant"
I apparently remember it as someone wanting to back away from something

[ashen cipher]

til reticent

[inland karma]

i was a very reticent young boy when i grew up.

norwegian has its own word for reticent and reluctant as wel, where you would use reticent more often

[autumn forge]

I always thought reticence meant emotional reservation

[charred tusk]

Oh I actually have a perfect example relative to the above issue.
For some reason a box in inventory is called a "caselot".
When they come in, the receiving team prints the "blank goods label".
When they go out, the production team prints the "finished goods label".
They're both caselots in inventory, it would cost $0 to just consistently call them caselots and it would save tons of confusion for every new temp that thinks they're different.

Aside: my CEO calls both caselots and SSCC(s) "cartons" but that term doesn't actually exist on either entity, so that's yet ANOTHER term

I know it looks super nitpicky to make a big PR changing it all
But being clear helps so much

[sand hornet]

Starting to sound as bad as most big tech companies and their acronyms

[charred tusk]

Oh man, don't get me started, I won't stop...
There's a page where the same entity is referred to by three different names
Back when I was still bright eyed and bushy tailed I tried to make a glossary
By the end of the day I was crying

[sand hornet]

PBI
Power BI
Product Backlog Item

That's probably the most tame..

ML SEE
S.I.I.
(both referred to as "SEE", but one of the VPs wanted us to spell the acronym verbally)
All I know is that SII is Siri and Information Intelligence.. (this is actually on their jobs page, so I can repeat it)

And what makes it worse is that both used to be in the same org, under the same VP/SVP, and they only made ML SEE like half PMs and they really should've been PMs under SII..

[errant snow]

good evening!

[pastel sluice]

Howdy

[terse mauve]

hello

[terse mauve]

I think I had a stroke reading that

[lucid hatch]

Hello

[pastel sluice]

Hi

[silver plover]

You'll never take my TLA's away from me.

[gleaming knoll]

TLA : TLA ~ girard's paradox

[wicked comet]

Hi

[cerulean ravine]

hey hey

[remote harness]

guys how do i genuinly learn python, i have been trying for a month now

[raw bramble]

Clarity is key, I think that if parameters and arguments are different things, then the words should be used precicely to refer to those respective things

[raw bramble]

!sloth
there's loads of resources here designed for beginners

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[remote harness]

got it, thanks

[raw bramble]

I recommend "Automate the Boring Stuff", it's a book designed to teach Python, and is suitable even if you have no programming experience whatsoever. You can read through it online for free at that link above

[remote harness]

TYSM

[raw bramble]

No problem, you can always ask any questions you want here. People here are really helpful

[cerulean ravine]

did you read the pull request I linked to? It's not always clear which is the correct word, and where it is crystal clear, it's not that important to get it right.

[cerulean ravine]

Is this a keyword-only argument or parameter: def f(*, a=1). That line literally defines the parameter, but it dictates how the argument must be provided. So is the topic arguments or parameters?

[raw bramble]

keyword-only parameter I guess?

a keyword-only argument would be an argument with only keywords?

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're meaning

[gleaming knoll]

if i were to be really pedantic i would say that "keyword-only argument" does not make sense because a given argument is either passed positionally or by keyword, it does not make sense to say "only" since its just 1 thing which is one or the other
but that is if i interpret argument as 1 specific thing in a given call expression

[raw bramble]

I think some of those changes being made are overly verbose though, if it's easier and simpler while still providing the same amount of clarity then it should be done that way, but sometimes it needs to be clearer

[cerulean ravine]

the whole thing started with an issue: https://github.com/python/cpython/issues/133438

[cerulean ravine]

sometimes it's not worth the effort to scrutinize all the proposed changes, and not worth the churn in the docs to change them.

I say that, but I also made this change: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/94551

[velvet trout]

https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/94551#issuecomment-1174822559

What is the meaning of these emojis... I am curious

[unborn lagoon]

Python cherry pick bot, probably?

[dusk adder]

cherrypick probably refers to the git cherrypick feature

[velvet trout]

Ooohhhh

[gleaming knoll]

bingo https://github.com/python/miss-islington/pull/1

Initial commit of Python cherry-picker bot

[finite sigil]

Is there a way to switch python version in ubuntu ?
A simpler way
It already came installed with 3.14 for some reason

[velvet trout]

🐍🍒⛏🤖 - A bot for backporting and merging CPython pull requests

So this is what it is

[bronze dragon]

uv or pyenv

[finite sigil]

the pyenv is stuck at this dawg 😭

pyenv install 3.11.0
Downloading Python-3.11.0.tar.xz...
-> https://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.11.0/Python-3.11.0.tar.xz
Installing Python-3.11.0...
patching file setup.py
Hunk #1 succeeded at 306 (offset -1 lines).

[bronze dragon]

It already came installed with 3.14 for some reason
because Ubuntu relies on Python for some of its functionality. which is why you don't mess with the system Python.

[bronze dragon]

compiling, I guess
uv should be faster since it has prebuilt stuff afaik

[velvet trout]

You shouldn't mess with me
You don't wanna mess with me
'cuz if you're messing with me, you're messing with some of my functionality.

Lmao. Reminded me of that song

[finite sigil]

how do i even make sure its running ?

[gleaming knoll]

see resource usage in some process monitor
should probally have some cc or gcc whatever subprocesses that are compiling python
it shouldnt take too much time if pyenv calls make -j so its weird that it seems like its stuck

[wicked comet]

No saar

[velvet trout]

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/79565542/using-typing-assert-never-with-abstract-base-classes-to-ensure-full-coverage

I have the same issue as this user. Is there any solution other than a type alias?

[slow rivet]

Well as some of the comments point out you can't know every subclass statically, especially not if this is for a library.

Any reason you can't go the methods route?

[velvet trout]

I like the match case way 😋

and dislike that method one but really haven't actually used it in practice so kind of biased i am currently

[rare gazelle]

one annoying thing about match case is the double indentation

[velvet trout]

At least i don't have to spam isinstance() per if-elif stmt in same indentation, so i see it as a win situation

[rare gazelle]

to be fair its normally double indentation in all the languages i guess, now that i think about it
but in python indentation feels more important than in other langauages

(compared to switch case forexample, not a 1 to 1 comparison though)

[velvet trout]

indentations are cool 😎 even braces/delimiters based languages uses indentations to keep code more easy to catch on a level

[bronze dragon]

(even though switch-case is not the equivalent of match-case)
in C-family-syntax languages I usually see people not put the outer indent for switch

switch (expr) {
case a:
    something();
    break;
default:
    break;
}

like that

unfortunately we don't have that option 🙃

[rare gazelle]

i kind of forgot how i wrote switch cases in C not gonna lie

[smoky onyx]

although this is not a chit chatting server
i am stressed and i want to chit chat among intellectual beings
hi

[rare gazelle]

you can go to #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[rare gazelle]

what you use match case for? can you share an example? just out of curiosity...

[bronze dragon]

I do think the indented nature of Python prevents us from better syntax in certain cases
like full-powered lambdas, or match-case as expression like Rust has

[smoky onyx]

has anyone studied TAFL it is such a useless subject my brain is nt braining

[dry pike]

also just because we know programming doesn't make us intellectual :)

[undone grove]

yes it does

[velvet trout]

Matching of tokens (produced by lexer.lex()) in parse() func

[bronze dragon]

automata theory? it was one of my favorite subjects. and far from useless.

[smoky onyx]

i mean better than some lolicon servers

[rare gazelle]

🤔 mind sharing some code

[bronze dragon]

what

[rare gazelle]

i'm not a match case expert, since i dont use it often

[smoky onyx]

studying it 2 days before exam is tiring

[steady rain]

What uses have you found for it?

[velvet trout]

i was editing it so it had some stuff that shouldn't be there to show you so i deleted unnecessary fluff and now presenting you clean one:

def parse(tokens: Iterable[ArgumentToken], command: Command) -> CommandNode:
    node = CommandNode(command)
    token_stream = TokenStream(tokens)

    context = ParseContext(
        node=node,
        token_stream=token_stream,
    )

    while (token := token_stream.peek()) is not None:
        match token:
            case OptionToken(prefix=prefix):
                token_stream.consume()
                match prefix:
                    case OptionPrefix.LONG:
                        _handle_long_option(token, context)
                    case OptionPrefix.SHORT:
                        _handle_short_option(token, context)
                    case _:
                        assert_never(prefix)
            case ShortOptionGroupToken():
                _handle_short_option_group(token, context)
            case ArgumentToken():
                parse_mode = context.node.command.parse_mode
                match parse_mode:
                    case ParseMode.COMMAND:
                        token_stream.consume()
                        _handle_command(token, context)
                    case ParseMode.OPERAND:
                        _handle_operand(token, context)
                    case _:
                        assert_never(parse_mode)
            case ArgumentToken():
                raise AssertionError(f"did not expect an {type(token).__name__!r} token")
            case _:
                assert_never(token)

    _validate_command_node(node)

    return node

[bronze dragon]

mostly conceptual. for one, I feel like it made me understand and be able to construct regexes better.
but even beyond text processing, also a lot of things just are state machines.

[smoky onyx]

it is just maths and langauge

[rare gazelle]

i wanted this in python lol
i talked about it in here some time ago
every single thing i think about rust already has lol

[smoky onyx]

what are they
from which bg u r

[velvet trout]

I am using case ArgumentToken hack to not to have a method() or Type alias

[bronze dragon]

wdym

[velvet trout]

Idk if that's really appropriate

[smoky onyx]

i mean ur specilization

[steady rain]

I agree on both counts. Though I don't think university courses about this do a good job conveying that

[bronze dragon]

systems programming, I would say

[velvet trout]

If there are mistakes, ignore it, I am still editing

[smoky onyx]

which branch is that 😭

[smoky onyx]

no course does that imo 😄

[bronze dragon]

systems programming deals with the operating system itself. this is at various levels, from drivers to core OS processes and tools like init systems and daemons and so on.

[rare gazelle]

interesting...

[smoky onyx]

i mean okay
this means u were from cse background only ?

[bronze dragon]

yeah, CS major in university.

[smoky onyx]

nice

so how tafl helped u

[velvet trout]

Its stupid tbh. I feel like i am abusing match case lol

[bronze dragon]

what I said above. #python-discussion message

[rare gazelle]

which makes it interesting lol

[smoky onyx]

it is just an extra subject like it is for ece students 😭

[velvet trout]

And has that case ArgumentToken(): so that i don't have to write put a type alias or an abstract method for subclasses

[velvet trout]

Is my approach appropriate? I do use raise AssertionError for assumption

i think i have read somewhere about .kind = EnumMember

Maybe that's more easy for statically typing

[rugged barn]

That looks... interesting

🫠

[bronze dragon]

I think it's a fundamental part of CS

[rare gazelle]

oh, i didn't notice it, that case would never get triggered

you have case ArgumentToken(): twice, only the first one could get triggered

[cerulean ravine]

sorry, what is tafl?

[velvet trout]

Oh wait it has two case ArgumentToken() lol

Well its wrong, because i am still editing

[rare gazelle]

i liked this:
case OptionToken(prefix=prefix)

its pretty clever

[velvet trout]

It catches prefix argument iirc

Or prefix attr

[bronze dragon]

Theory of Automata and Formal Languages

[velvet trout]

And assigns to name at right side

[rare gazelle]

instead of doing prefix = token.prefix afterwards

[velvet trout]

ClassName(attrname=varname)

[rare gazelle]

you say it needs to be an OptionToken with a prefix attribute, and you store that attribute in prefix

[cerulean ravine]

CS is often much more about the theoretical mathematics of computation than about real-world software engineering concerns.

[velvet trout]

Yeah

[rare gazelle]

case OptionToken():
    prefix = token.prefix

is the same as:

case OptionToken(prefix=prefix):

thats a nice trick

[velvet trout]

guess so

In Python, we cannot statically know all subclasses of a class but at runtime we can (as far as those subclasses were found and evaluated)?

[rare gazelle]

i mean, unless there's OptionToken without a prefix attribute, then its not the same

[velvet trout]

OptionToken does have a prefix, that is why we have another match case for it

[rare gazelle]

say you had ones with and ones without, only those with would get matched

but in:

case OptionToken():
    prefix = token.prefix

all would get matched

thats a small technicality though

actually

prefix = token.prefix would error

[velvet trout]

imagine OptionToken() but one doesn't have a prefix and goes down and ends up in assert_never lol

[rare gazelle]

lol

lambda shared in here a code with many match cases and i found it interesting...

[velvet trout]

Share me that too :D

[rare gazelle]

let me see if i can find it, i barely understood anything though not gonna lie

[velvet trout]

Tho i wished i had more stuff to add more cases, this one is barely 3 cases

[rare gazelle]

unfortunately the link is dead: (https://paste.pythondiscord.com/XJQA)
#python-discussion message

[velvet trout]

oh :_(

[rare gazelle]

you definitely won't find interesting match case usages in my codes though, since i really barely use match case haha... mainly because of the double indentation

[velvet trout]

I think i will change this into Token.kind where kind is closed end enum and use that in cases instead of token classes

[hybrid nebula]

is there any reason we're not resampling audio by doing a FFT and zero-padding/trimming the frequency array, then performing reverse FFT?

[rare gazelle]

umm, you can i guess

although if you use match case for constants you kind of not fully utilizing its power for pattern matching

[velvet trout]

Would it narrow down token subclass too with that? gotta try to implement this

[gleaming knoll]

it was just matching on pairs to implement like a 2d decision table

[rare gazelle]

i dont remember what it was not gonna lie

[velvet trout]

[rare gazelle]

but if you want, you can share a link for it, it was an interesting read

basically the usage of match case you did there...

[gleaming knoll]

oh and i did a | with a symmetric pattern to make the order not matter

[rare gazelle]

(the link is dead)

[gleaming knoll]

yeah ik

[rare gazelle]

not sure what you mean by that

[gleaming knoll]

def unify(lhs, rhs):
  match (lhs, rhs):
    case (Variable(name), expr) | (expr, Variable(name)):
      return {name: expr}
    ...

something like this

idk if its actually good lol
its kinda ass

[rare gazelle]

could be nice if you could store patterns in variables

[gleaming knoll]

FIRST. CLASS. PATTERNS.
pattern calculus

[crisp jay]

huh discord is changing the markdown colors

[gleaming knoll]

there is a problem with how to use that when patterns capture variables though
its not exactly obvious

[rare gazelle]

why not

you basically store the actions

[gleaming knoll]

how would a function that matches against an arbitrary pattern know what are the variables it gets from the pattern?

[rare gazelle]

when the pattern is being used in a case it will know

the actions will get executed there

[gleaming knoll]

def func(scrutinee, pattern):
  match scrutinee:
    case ~pattern:
      ... # what variables do i have here? could it have accidentally reassigned to something?

[steel whale]

https://www.python.org/downloads/

[rare gazelle]

def unify(lhs, rhs):
  match (lhs, rhs):
    case (Variable(name), expr) | (expr, Variable(name)):
      return {name: expr}
    ...

to

pattern x = (Variable(name), expr) | (expr, Variable(name))
def unify(lhs, rhs):
  match (lhs, rhs):
    case x:
      return {name: expr}
    ...

[gleaming knoll]

with just pattern aliases that works fine, sure
but not when a given name refers to an arbitrary pattern

[velvet trout]

Be explicit

!zen explicit

[edgy kraken]

The Zen of Python (line 1):

Explicit is better than implicit.

[steel whale]

what were you asking about then sweetheart

[velvet trout]

Your pfps matches color slightly making me think its the same person

[steel whale]

same aesthetic

not same person

[rare gazelle]

what you mean

[velvet trout]

Yeah correct term

[gleaming knoll]

first class patterns would be analogous to first class functions
like being able to pass a function to map or filter, you would pass a pattern to some function, or store it in a collection

[rare gazelle]

i still dont understand what you mean

[rare gazelle]

yes exactly, it'd be set as the argument name

thats the thing

[gleaming knoll]

^?
with a naive implementation, it just basically doesnt work

[hybrid nebula]

a pattern is just a predicate that may assign to the local vars on success

[rare gazelle]

pattern x = (Variable(name), expr) | (expr, Variable(name))
def unify(patt, lhs, rhs):
  match (lhs, rhs):
    case patt:
      return {name: expr}
    ...

unify(x, lhs, rhs)

[gleaming knoll]

and how do you know that patt binds name and expr?

[rare gazelle]

thats what the function wants

[gleaming knoll]

that doesnt play out nice with how scope resolution works in python

it also means patterns have to match in names and that doesnt compose well
basically unhygienic macros

[steel whale]

We don’t have the same aesthetic at all. Just two black and white pics weirdo.

• @neat locust

no need to be rude about it, it's just profile pictures

[gleaming knoll]

the "usual" solution (this is not even a topic that is talked about much in PL) would be to make them actually analogous to functions, have them return values

[rare gazelle]

but then you wouldn't be able to do case patt:

[gleaming knoll]

yes, because it doesnt even make sense to do so.

[hybrid nebula]

def x(val, locals):
  try:
    a, b = val
  except Exception:
    return False
  if isinstance(a, Variable):
    locals["name"] = a.name
    locals["expr"] = b
    return True
  if isinstance(b, Variable):
    locals["name"] = b.name
    locals["expr"] = a
    return True
  return False

[gleaming knoll]

you can already do "first class patterns" in a really stupid way with stuff like that yeah

[steel whale]

ghost ping?

[charred tusk]

@steel whale

Found a ping

[gleaming knoll]

they deleted the message
the person who you pinged said something "i dont know you, dont mention me"
such a weirdo idk

[steel whale]

(i have msglogger on)

[charred tusk]

(get banned you hecker)

[steel whale]

9

[hybrid nebula]

fun fact:

try: a, b = val; except: return False

has different behaviour from

ab = list(val)
if len(ab) != 2: return False
a, b = ab

[gleaming knoll]

i mean thats obvious, the second doesnt check that it can list the val

[charred tusk]

sipi

[hybrid nebula]

?

[rare gazelle]

thats like that tuple example that gets mentioned in here from time to time isn't it

[hybrid nebula]

wdym?

[gleaming knoll]

in the first one, the except will catch the case where val isnt iterable

[rare gazelle]

that the error raises after a partial assignment

i haven't tried your code, just assuming

[hybrid nebula]

even if val is iterable

the second one has different behaviour even if you wrap it in try/except return false

[rare gazelle]

i assume that a could have a value even if it errors

if its 1 element size in val

its the same sht as that tuple example, mentioned in here from time to time

[hybrid nebula]

I don't think so

at least not if it throws an error

[gleaming knoll]

UNPACK_SEQUENCE fully happens before the assignments are started to execute

[hybrid nebula]

what I was specifically referring to was that in case 1, there are never more than 3 items generated before erroring

in the second case, if the iterator never halts... fun

[rare gazelle]

if its an infinite iterator it would get stuck in the first one as well i think

[hybrid nebula]

nope

[gleaming knoll]

thats the difference owo is referring to, it knows to only next(it) n (2 in this case) times and ensure that after that next(it) raises StopIteraiton
it doesnt need to fully list() it

[hybrid nebula]

in the first case, the error happens immediately after the third yield

[rare gazelle]

interesting

[hybrid nebula]

I wonder whether the expression of the yield is evaluated... should be if you think about bytecode

[rare gazelle]

so it errors as well but at the third yield, interesting to know

[granite wyvern]

I feel like I'm missing context, but if you'r etrying to unpack a generator-yields-more-than-2 items into a,b, surely the expression to be yielded the third time must be evaluated because until then you don't even know if the yield will happen inside the generator - it might eg raise.

[hybrid nebula]

I was thinking about yield f(x) whether f(x) is evaluated, and I didn't test yet, but I'd heavily assume so

[granite wyvern]

It must be.

[rare gazelle]

what you mean cameron

[gleaming knoll]

in python's evaluation model it has to be evaluated
its not haskell

[rare gazelle]

if its an iterator in order to know if its size is 2 u need to yield 3 times at least

[granite wyvern]

Suppose f(x) raises some exception. Then the yield won't happen.

[proud mica]

guys im going to learn phyton , what advice would you give me?

[cerulean ravine]

btw, i just published this blog post which touches on this, thanks for the question: https://nedbatchelder.com/blog/202604/school_is_artificial

[cerulean ravine]

don't compare yourself to others

[hybrid nebula]

now also mention why the 'we will always have access to $X in the real world' is a bad argument in school

[rare gazelle]

def x():
    cnt = 0
    
    while True:
        yield cnt
        print(f"yielded {cnt}")
        cnt += 1

try:
    a, b = x()
except:
    ...

yielded 0
yielded 1

doesn't get to print yielded 2

[proud mica]

what employers wants from me to know? wich skill is more valuable nowdays and can ai change programer?

[rare gazelle]

so at yielded 2 it errors

[cerulean ravine]

now I have more to add to the blog post....

[hybrid nebula]

'can ai change programer' meaning what?

[proud mica]

like solve problam

[cerulean ravine]

AI is changing the job of programming

[hybrid nebula]

while model providers do not yet charge the cost they would need to break even

[velvet trout]

Nevermind. I end up using an union like this (for now):

type LexerToken = OptionToken | ShortOptionGroupToken | ArgumentToken

now for match token:, token is typed as LexerToken.

[velvet trout]

Previously, it was just generic Token

[rare gazelle]

i see

[velvet trout]

Also i decided on terms for my cliargparse.

class Tokenizer.tokenize(source: str) -> lexemes: list[str]

lexer.lex(lexemes) -> Generator[Token]

class Token.lexeme: str

previously i was using "argument(s)" as a term vaguely everywhere

[rare gazelle]

you mean documentation?

[gleaming knoll]

a, b = iterable
# ~
_N = 2
if isinstance(iterable, (list, tuple, dict)):
  _size = len(iterable)
  if _size > _N:
    raise ValueError(f"too many values to unpack (expected {_N}, got {_size})")
try:
  _iterator = iter(iterable)
except TypeError:
  raise TypeError(f"cannot unpack non-iterable {type(iterable).__name__} object")
_values = []
for _ in range(_N):
  try:
    _values.append(next(_iterator))
  except StopIteration:
    raise ValueError(f"not enough values to unpack (expected {_N}, got {len(_values)})")
try:
  next(_iterator)
except StopIteration:
  pass
else:
  raise ValueError(f"too many values to unpack (expected {_N})")
assert len(_values) == _N
a = _values[0]
b = _values[1]

[velvet trout]

in params and field names

[rare gazelle]

oh

[rare gazelle]

a challenge for you

unpack a,b from infinite iterator

[gleaming knoll]

that does it, it only nexts 2+1 times

[rare gazelle]

ie: 0,1,2,3,4,5..... unpacked: 0,1

using the syntax of a,b=x

i dont know if its possible

[gleaming knoll]

def take_first_two(iterable):
  iterator = iter(iterable)
  yield next(iterator)
  yield next(iterator)
a, b = take_first_two(x)

(islice or whatever)

[rare gazelle]

it must bbe an infinite iterator, but you can have helpers

[gleaming knoll]

def first(n, it):
  it = iter(it)
  for _ in range(n):
    yield next(it)
a, b = first(2, x)

[rare gazelle]

first(2,x) isn't infinite

[gleaming knoll]

then its impossible, the unpacking mechanism itself will error if the rhs is longer than 2, no matter what you do to the iterable

[rare gazelle]

i dont know if its impossible, maybe though

[velvet trout]

Why make life hard?

[rare gazelle]

what if you try except the yield in a function?

[granite wyvern]

This tests that the yield happened and control came becak to the generator. That second part oesn't necessarily happen.

I think the yield happened (you could yield from a function which prints to check) and that Python's mechanics then blow the a,b assignment, which will raise GeneratorStop (?) inside the generator, terminating it.

[velvet trout]

GeneratorExit you mean?

[gleaming knoll]

apparently it unironically does check for list, tuple, dict specifically for the error where it mentions the amount of elements it "got"
not arbitrary len. weird.

[granite wyvern]

So put:

try:
    yield x
except:
    print("generator raised from yield", sys.exc_info())
    return

[rare gazelle]

the probblem is that the error happens outside

if you could somehow knokw what is trying to get unpacked, whats the expected size, if there's a determined size

[rare gazelle]

not sure i understand what you're saying

from what i understood, the third yield raised an error outside

it did try to yield the third item, but errored

[granite wyvern]

You were asserting that the lack of the third print meant the yield didn't occur. But yield is a 2 step process - the value goes out to whoever is calling next() and a value or exception comes back when the generator resumes, at the next next() or throw or send.

Let me make a demo.

[rare gazelle]

trying the yield wouldn't help though

because the error happens outside

[chilly whale]

the error happens in both places

[rare gazelle]

i agree that 2 yields happened successfully, and the third errored

there was an attempt to yield the 3rd item

which lead to the error outside

[gleaming knoll]

the attempt was successful, it did yield 2

[rare gazelle]

i dont know how the internals of it work, but could be

[chilly whale]

!e See for instance: ```py
import itertools
counter = itertools.count()
print(next(counter))
try:
a, b = counter
except Exception:
pass
print(next(counter))

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | 0
002 | 4

[granite wyvern]

[~/tmp/disco/mtnjustme]fleet2*1> py3 yield3.py
+ exec python3 yield3.py
about to a,b=gen()
gen: start
gen: about to yield 0
gen: after yield, about to bump n
gen: about to yield 1
gen: after yield, about to bump n
gen: about to yield 2
gen: yield raised exception (<class 'GeneratorExit'>, GeneratorExit(), <traceback object at 0x1091229c0>)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/Users/cameron/tmp/disco/mtnjustme/yield3.py", line 19, in <module>
    a,b=gen()
    ^^^
ValueError: too many values to unpack (expected 2)
[~/tmp/disco/mtnjustme]fleet2*1>

[chilly whale]

the a, b = counter line consumes 1, 2, and 3 from the counter

[granite wyvern]

This is from this code:

import sys

def gen():
  print("gen: start")
  n = 0
  while True:
    print("gen: about to yield", n)
    try:
      yield n
    except:
      print("gen: yield raised exception", sys.exc_info())
      return
    print("gen: after yield, about to bump n")
    n += 1

print("about to a,b=gen()")
a,b=gen()

[rare gazelle]

i see

[chilly whale]

the only way that unpacking could know that the iterator wasn't exhausted is by asking for a 3rd value and seeing whether or not it gets a StopIteration. And once it has asked for that 3rd value, there's no way to put it back - it's already been yielded

[rare gazelle]

that was the initial point

[granite wyvern]

The purpose of my example, vs GG's, is to show control returning to the generator.

[rare gazelle]

that is expected though

[rare gazelle]

that except getting triggered is weird though

why did yield errored inside?

it yielded successfully

[granite wyvern]

No, it's expected. That's what I was demoing. Control returns to the generator to tell it to stop.

[sand hornet]

but you can see the different, sii?

[rare gazelle]

oh

[terse mauve]

yes 🤨

[sand hornet]

🙂‍↕️

[rare gazelle]

thing is, i wonder if there's a way to know how many variables are trying to get packed

if you know that, you know exactly how many values to yield

[chilly whale]

gen() was a temporary. When that temporary is destroyed, GeneratorExit gets raised

[rare gazelle]

of course it's not always known, but it's sometimes known

[chilly whale]

consider [first, *rest, last] = gen()

[rare gazelle]

a,b u know that there are 2 arguments to get packed

[sand hornet]

Finally got Discord's light theme to kinda work for me ✨

[granite wyvern]

This kind of flow, btw, is how async works: a coroutine which awaits yields, so that the event loop can run. The coroutine is resumed by the event loop by by passing a value (the await result) or exception back to the coroutine from the event loop.

These mechanics are hidden by the async/await keyword mechanism.

But async is cooperating generators.

[rare gazelle]

yea not always, but sometimes

[rare gazelle]

interesting

[granite wyvern]

... because yield is an expression 🙂

[rare gazelle]

so you can know from inside the generator if an exception happened outside

[chilly whale]

that's not really what's happening here, though. Nothing is passing an exception in other than the interpreter itself, which is doing it because the generator has been gc'd

[granite wyvern]

Not directly. But you get a GeneratorExit exception in the generator, which is how it gets cancelled.

[granite wyvern]

Yes

[rare gazelle]

yea, and you can do some cleanup if you want to as well

[sand hornet]

Or like a main thread has to have either a semaphore or a mutex in order to interact with the async thread. Once incremented or decremented (usually decremented), then the main thread can continue.

• create mutex
• Start async thread with mutex pointer
• wait for the mutex to update
• async thread runs
• async thread updates mutex
• async thread exits, and the main thread continues as condition check is now passed
  (Sorry, I've been writing a lot of concurrent Swift lately)

[gleaming knoll]

if the call to gen is at the line of the unpack you can just

import sys
import linecache

def gen():
  frame = sys._getframe(1)
  context = linecache.getline(frame.f_code.co_filename, frame.f_lineno)
  target_vars = context.partition("=")[0].split(",")
  amount = len(target_vars)
  return range(amount)

a, b = gen()
print(a, b)

[rare gazelle]

kind of fair

[gleaming knoll]

something a bit more sophisticated would be checking the bytecode argument of the previous nearest unpack_ bytecode instruction from the frame's lasti

[rare gazelle]

notice that the error tells you the amount btw

trying to unpack 3 to 2 iirc (so that information is stored somewhere)

[gleaming knoll]

only for list, tuple, dict, it uses their len()

[granite wyvern]

That side isn't direct. But you can pass in an exception: https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html#generator.throw

Just above that is generator.send(value) which is how the value of the yield expression is received.

[charred tusk]

I just wanna say
God bless platformdirs

[rare gazelle]

but still the amount of what needed to be packed iirc

too many values to unpack (expected 2)

so expected 2 that information is stored somewhere

if you could get that information beforehand, you could islice the iterable and return it

[granite wyvern]

Yes, but you don't know the generator made too many values without triggering the final yield. And python raises the too many values exception.

[rare gazelle]

i dont use send/throw at all, still interesting that it can happen without even send/throw

[sand hornet]

pathspec, platformdirs, and uhh what was the other one for that?

[gleaming knoll]

its the bytecode argument to UNPACK_SEQUENCE

[rare gazelle]

on an error that occurs outside, sending GeneratorExit

[granite wyvern]

As GG mentioned, that exception occurs when garbage collecting the now discarded generator.

You could hold onto the generator though and defer the gc.

[rare gazelle]

that makes sense i guess

[gleaming knoll]

i shall do this

actually i recently had an idea about making a language that would compile directly to cpython bytecode

and i wanted to play around with compiling to match expressions

[rare gazelle]

i see

[gleaming knoll]

like, use the bytecode instructions that cpython uses for match, but make the arms produce a new value on the stack rather than just do control flow for statements

[rare gazelle]

whats the benefit in that

[gleaming knoll]

"native" (to the python interpreter) implementation of a match expression (which my language would have because based functional programming everything is an expression)

[rare gazelle]

🤔

second time today someone mentioned match expression

[gleaming knoll]

i also want to learn how to implement lazy evaluation in languages

[chilly whale]

given that Python's bytecode format isn't stable, it'd probably be a better idea to transpile to Python and then compile the Python to bytecode instead of compiling directly to bytecode. Way less maintenance

[cerulean rune]

Thanks a lot for the help with improving my code. Your guidance made it easier to understand what I was doing wrong. I was able to fix my errors and clean things up properly. I appreciate you taking the time to help me make my code better.

[gleaming knoll]

that way you can only get bytecode that is a result of compiling well-formed python programs, which match-expressions arent
in python match arms are blocks of statements

[soft coral]

What's not "stable" about the bytecode? that it changes version to version, or that it is machine/os dependent?

[gleaming knoll]

changes version to version. its not os dependent, that would defeat the purpose of bytecode, the purpose is to abstract from this detail and run anywhere

[soft coral]

Ah

[chilly whale]

both, I believe

[soft coral]

Oh

[chilly whale]

not OS, but I do think it's architecture dependent?

[rare gazelle]

so technically, it's possible to do this in cpython

[gleaming knoll]

like, endianness dependent? i think the marshal format makes sure to handle that

[chilly whale]

endianness, integer size, etc

[rare gazelle]

this correct right^

[unborn lagoon]

pretty sure marshal is little-endian throughout

[gleaming knoll]

i would just need to change the code in the parts that match jumps to. its just that normally its code that doesnt have a stack effect because its compiled from a block of statements, but the match instructions themselves are just control flow

[chilly whale]

perhaps I'm wrong then. Someone recently mentioned to me that the bytecode format is arch dependent in recent versions, but perhaps I misunderstood them

[rare gazelle]

i see

why specifically you want to go with python bytecode if you want functional

wouldn't it make sense to use something rust uses for example

[gleaming knoll]

https://docs.python.org/3/library/marshal.html

The format is specific to Python, but independent of machine architecture issues

[rare gazelle]

or even haskell

[gleaming knoll]

its not a practical choice, just a funny one
the benefits are python interop
and learning about python bytecode

[rare gazelle]

uh

well good luck i guess, would be interesting to try it

[lunar cobalt]

If I have aliases for something, say types (Where Nat is also natural) should I loop through every type to check if that's a type's alias or have a reverse lookup dict?

[gleaming knoll]

what do you mean by reverse lookup
Nat -> natural is not a reverse lookup, its a direct one

[frosty oriole]

we need more context

[lunar cobalt]

Nat is the actual type natural is its alias.
The reverse dict would have this basically
{'natural': 'Nat'}

[gleaming knoll]

i dont understand why are you calling this "reverse"

[lunar cobalt]

Because the "actual" lookup would be from Nat to natural, checking if natural is one of its aliases?

Instead the lookup is reversed, getting the actual type directly from the alias

[gleaming knoll]

why would you do that

[lunar cobalt]

Nat -> natural is normal
natural -> Nat is reverse

[lunar cobalt]

When I say that natural is the alias of Nat and then I say
let b : natural = 6
I need the validator to somehow understand that "natural" means "Nat"

[gleaming knoll]

it does not make sense to have a {Nat: natural} mapping if natural resolves to Nat. you'd have {natural: Nat}, and this would be ~let b : Nat = 6 after resolving aliases

if your type aliases are simple then typealias A = B should just be type_table["A"] = evaluate_type_expression("B")
and if you have parametrized aliases you handle them similarly to functions
because well really they are, type aliases are just variables for types, and parametrized type aliases are (restricted) functions on types
problems only appear with recursive type aliases

[cerulean ravine]

is this going to be a long discussion about a language other than Python?

[gleaming knoll]

this is just a general language implementation discussion. python has type A = B

[crisp jay]

does python have/had a function/builtin that has a name A that does everything but A

[cerulean ravine]

what does that mean?

[gleaming knoll]

a name that doesnt at all describe what the function does?

[crisp jay]

yea,language barrier is working on me rn

[gleaming knoll]

no, what you said makes sense, its just that A has to be treated as a variable representing some identifier

[cerulean ravine]

"everything but A" doesn't make any sense, no matter what you replace A with.

[gleaming knoll]

would "anything but A" avoid that problem? since its kinda referring to 1 thing, not "every"
since "everything but A" is a figure of speech i dont treat the "everything" in it literally, i just infer from context, so i didnt mind it

[gleaming knoll]

"everything but A" is a figure of speech, "does everything but A" doesnt make sense if we interpret the "everything" literally since a given program cant do "everything", it does something specific

[manic flare]

“But doesn’t do A” would be more appropriate

[raw bramble]

How would !x work if x is a ternary data type rather than a boolean?

[rare gazelle]

you can get the instruction for it, and then get its value (from the calling frame)

[gleaming knoll]

i think the most obvious one is the output table being a reverse of the sequence of states

[gleaming knoll]

thats what i said in the previous message, yes #python-discussion message

[brisk gazelle]

~x?

[rare gazelle]

interesting, so its possible i gesss

[gleaming knoll]

0 1 2
# ->
2 1 0

[raw bramble]

?

[manic flare]

Perhaps
1 2 0?

[raw bramble]

What if it's -1, 0, 1 though?

[gleaming knoll]

1, 0, -1

[gleaming knoll]

unfortunately in this case !0 = 0
if you dont want that, then cycle the states (in either direction) rather than reversing the entire sequence

[raw bramble]

What's the word for these 2 types of ternary I forgotr

There's the one where it's balanced with -1, 0, and 1. then the other one which is 0, 1, and 2

[gleaming knoll]

(un)balanced

[raw bramble]

yeah thy

[gleaming knoll]

0 1 2
# ~
1 2 0
2 0 1

in this case (!x) != (x)

[brisk gazelle]

Ah, it's __invert__.

~

[manic flare]

Does anyone else ever wish that
my_list = [1, 2, 3]
print(my_list[4])
would print 2?

[gleaming knoll]

implicit wraparound? no, i dont wish that, it would be a common source of bugs

[jagged belfry]

!e ```py
a = [1, 2, 3]
print(a[-5])

[edgy kraken]

:x: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 1.

001 | Traceback (most recent call last):
002 |   File "/home/main.py", line 2, in <module>
003 |     print(a[-5])
004 |           ~^^^^
005 | IndexError: list index out of range

[gleaming knoll]

i can always just do seq[idx%len(seq)] if i want wraparound in some specific place
or do seq = Circular(seq) if its going to be circularly indexed in a lot of places

[terse mauve]

is Circular in stdlib? or you create it on you own?

[gleaming knoll]

i dont think there is one in stdlib. i've written my own a couple of times, you basically just do this % thing in all the methods related to indexing

[terse mauve]

good idea. just overwrite __index__, right?

[cerulean ravine]

isn't itertools.cycle it? https://docs.python.org/3/library/itertools.html#itertools.cycle

[gleaming knoll]

a[b] is __getitem__

[terse mauve]

__getitem__

[gleaming knoll]

for iterating yes, not for a sequence, like one that you'd index into

[terse mauve]

sorry, too much rust and python lately

[cerulean ravine]

i see, make a new indexable thing that hides the modulo

[lunar cobalt]

Are functions without recursion just text replacement basically?

[gleaming knoll]

yeah thats what Circular would be in this case

[lunar cobalt]

Without the fact that variables are scoped

[gleaming knoll]

see "inlining"

[lunar cobalt]

I will, thx

[cerulean ravine]

they aren't text replacement because of scoping, and because of stack traces, etc.

[terse mauve]

ummmm, not really. because you can pass functions as arguments that can be used for in other functions

[cerulean ravine]

Python doesn't inline, but C does during compilation.

[cerulean ravine]

and inlining still isn't text replacement, because of scoping, etc.

[lunar cobalt]

mhh i see

[gleaming knoll]

an indepth explanation of inlining would explain the differences from textual replacement,
when its applicable and when not
its an interesting topic

[charred tusk]

Ned I need an opinion
I'm bikeshedding Claude's suggestion instead of just moving on

[gleaming knoll]

if your functions have a return statement then textual substitution already fails, you need to do something a bit more complicated

[charred tusk]

Claude gave me these cache keys

def _licensing_key(design_code: str) -> str:
    return f"{KERP_NAMESPACE}:art:licensing:" + json.dumps([design_code])


def _print_records_key(design_code: str, ground_color: str, gender: str) -> str:
    return f"{KERP_NAMESPACE}:art:print_records:" + json.dumps(
        [design_code, ground_color, gender],
    )

I don't like the lists, I don't really wanna be using JSON here at all
I feel like the first should just be raw and the second should just use something simpler like commas

[jagged belfry]

oh god why

[cerulean ravine]

why json.dumps? Why not just concatenate the strings? You already have colons as separators.

[granite wyvern]

If you're sure the design_code etc have no commas or colons that should work. The JSON just arranges an escaping mechanism. Unless I misunderstand.

[jagged belfry]

hash(json.dumps(code))

not literalyl hash()

put a sha512 in there or something

This is why I hate ai btw

[granite wyvern]

complexity without explanation?

[crisp jay]

yes!

[cerulean ravine]

or if you are concerned about needing to quote the contents of the strings, why not: json.dumps([KERP_NAMESPACE, "art", "print_records", design_code, etc])

[charred tusk]

Design code is guaranteed to be alphanumeric
The others two could have a limited set of special characters, namely ,/

[pastel sluice]

It's only just now hitting me that training these models on so much publicly available code will yield those kinds of results, because genuinely good code is hard to find

[crisp jay]

ai should read clean code or smth

[jagged belfry]

def cache_key_for(keyspace: str, **key_args) -> str:
    return f"{KERP_NAMESPACE}:{keyspace}:" + hashlib.sha256(json.dumps(dict(sorted(key_args.items()))).hexdigest()

[charred tusk]

woah

[cerulean ravine]

i think if you ask claude why it wrote it this way, it will tell you.

[charred tusk]

I did, it did

[jagged belfry]

Code that's worded like it's good but is actually trash

[cerulean ravine]

and?

[granite wyvern]

If you've got a char guarrenteed not to be in there (eg :) you could just join with that.

[cerulean ravine]

if he didn't like json.dumps, how does adding hashlib help?

[pastel sluice]

actually, I don't even think any "explanation" you'd get from Claude would be a record of any actual process of reasoning on its part, but a post-hoc rationalization

[charred tusk]

Good catch — there's no functional reason for the list around a single value. I used json.dumps([design_code]) for both keys to keep one consistent encoding shape (so both helpers look symmetric and you never have to think about whether a key has one or many components), but for the licensing key that just produces noise like ["DESIGN1"] instead of "DESIGN1".

A few alternatives, in increasing tidiness:

1. Drop the list for licensing and just use json.dumps(design_code) → key becomes kerp:art:licensing:"DESIGN1". Quotes still come along because JSON, but it's at least scalar.
2. Skip JSON entirely for the single-value case → f"kerp:art:licensing:{design_code}". Simplest, readable, but you do need to trust the input doesn't contain : or other separators (design codes here look safe).
3. Keep json.dumps([...]) for both. The only real argument for it is "every key value is a JSON array of its parameters," which is mildly nice for debuggability of multi-arg keys (print_records), but it adds zero value for licensing.

If you want, I can change the licensing key to option 1 or 2. Note this would invalidate any already-cached kerp:art:licensing:[...] rows on existing machines, so users would see a one-time miss after the change (a untw cache clear --namespace kerp --yes would also do it cleanly).

Continued with Autopilot: Task not yet complete
Answered the user's question about why the licensing cache key wraps the single design code in a JSON list, explained it's just for symmetry with the multi-arg print_records key, and offered three cleanup options.

[spice hill]

That's going to make the key hash dependent on the ordering of the keys

[jagged belfry]

Oh, right

[charred tusk]

Which isn't a problem in my case
But still overcomplicated

[cerulean ravine]

what did you think of the options it offered?

[jagged belfry]

fixed.

[spice hill]

What are the requirements for the cache keys? What do the strings look like?

[cerulean ravine]

it's fine to have a better idea and implement it.

[charred tusk]

#python-discussion message

[jagged belfry]

There are a dozen problems with these cache keys:

• you're packing in complex formats
• they're big
• they're unbounded
• your generate function is insufficiently modular
• your generate function can't take in any parameters besides a str (???)

[cerulean ravine]

what does insufficiently modular mean, and why does it need to take other types than str?

[jagged belfry]

this example has a licensing key and then a print records key and they are effectively the same code just with a different number of parameters

There's no reason you can't just *args that instead of having several functions

[charred tusk]

that could also work

[gleaming knoll]

but they are readable in case that matters

do you ever go looking at your cache

[jagged belfry]

no

[cerulean ravine]

readable cache keys can be very nice.

[jagged belfry]

I typically purge it before doing that

[spice hill]

What are these keys pointing to?

[charred tusk]

It doesn't, the computer is handling all caching
But there's no reason to go create some bespoke format instead of a 20 character strings

[jagged belfry]

If you want readable keys you can just ":".join()

[charred tusk]

SQLite table that's just key,value,expiration
Value is JSON

[spice hill]

You have a single SQLite table for literally all your data?

[granite wyvern]

I'm with Bast: just join with colons and let sqlite do the index.

[cerulean ravine]

it's a cache

[charred tusk]

For a CLI tool

[jagged belfry]

def cache_key(*keycodes: str):
  return KERP_NAMESPACE + ":" + ":".join(str(i) for i in keycodes)

def licensing_key(design_code: str):
  return cache_key("art", "licensing", design_code)

[wraith wolf]

hey is anyone here a reverse engineer

[charred tusk]

Sure, why not

[spice hill]

cache for what though? what are the values?

[charred tusk]

API responses

[frosty oriole]

and your inputs are the parameters to the API call?

[cerulean ravine]

def cache_key(*keycodes: str):
    return ":".join([KERP_NAMESPACE, *keycodes])

[spice hill]

print_record_response_cache:
design_code,ground_color,gender,response
``` then make an index on `design_code,ground_color,gender`

[bright shoal]

if there were what would you ask?

[jagged belfry]

Yeah, that is better, thanks

[frosty oriole]

you're trying to cache it so that if you call the same inputs for the API you get a cached response?

[granite wyvern]

I'm working on a project which does such a cache also. It's one table. (Well, no, 2 tables: entities and tags for them.)

My cdrip script uses this for the musicbrainzng cached responses for example.

[charred tusk]

And... I just submitted something needing redaction to the pastebin

based

[wraith wolf]

i need to hire someone for a project thats why

[spice hill]

I'd be worried about the codes containing :. You never know what's coming. Maybe you could percent-encode them or something

[frosty oriole]

go put up a post on linked or something

[charred tusk]

LinkedIn not Fiver?

[frosty oriole]

no reverse engineer worth their salt is on fiverr

[spice hill]

!rule 9 not on this server

[granite wyvern]

why stop at just one?

[edgy kraken]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[charred tusk]

fair

[bright shoal]

yeah.. you won't find anyone here to do that lol

[wraith wolf]

why nott

[charred tusk]

https://paste.pythondiscord.com/BOMQ

[bright shoal]

^

🤔

[spice hill]

#python-discussion message you need to reverse engineer this message

[wraith wolf]

what

[bright shoal]

🗿

[jagged belfry]

I hate ai code

[gleaming knoll]

imagine someone bruteforcing random paste.pythondiscord.com links
to find cases like this

[charred tusk]

I think the implementation of recreating the KERP client was done very tediously here
But its pretty dead simple
No vast architectural hell

[gleaming knoll]

absolute cinema

[charred tusk]

https://github.com/Preocts/wypt

[gleaming knoll]

lmao

[robust ledge]

Weird. Who would write that?

[charred tusk]

IDK, kinda wanna meet them and see what they're like one day

[granite wyvern]

I assume they're like a seven.

[robust ledge]

I'm impressed at you even remembering that repo. I'd forgotten about it.

[charred tusk]

I'm not sure
I've never done this before -- hence me asking Claude to show me an implementation
My brain wants option 1, no need for a list if there's only one value
But I can get behind the consistency of just always using a list to keep everything uniform

[charred tusk]

I think about it every time I have to re-paste because I missed a redaction
-# which is every time I paste 😬

[cerulean ravine]

this is where your taste comes into play. as you can see from the discussion here, different people will do it differently.

[charred tusk]

Yeah my code often sparks... very heated discussions 😳

[spice hill]

did you write this? or Claude?

[charred tusk]

The code or the reply?

[spice hill]

code

[charred tusk]

no

[spice hill]

would be funny if you wrote the code by hand but than offloaded the discording to claude

[charred tusk]

new project idea unlocked

I asked Claude for an example implementation because I have never done SQLite caches before
I started doing some copy-editing and got stuck bikeshedding

[spice hill]

How many entries are going to be in the table at most?

[charred tusk]

~25k

[spice hill]

And how many kilobytes/megabytes of values per entry?

actually, maybe this doesn't matter

[charred tusk]

If you wanna see how dangerous it is when I'm left to do these things myself:

pos = _parse_pos_csv()
for po_number, items in pos:
  if Path(f"pos/{po_number}-request.xml").exists():
    print(f"Skipping PO {po_number} because request XML already exists.")  # noqa: T201
    continue
  pre_po = build_purchase_order(po_number, items)
  po = build_purchase_order_request(client, pre_po)
  client.service.sendPO(SanMar.promostandards_ws_version, SanMar.username, SanMar.password, po)
  Path(f"pos/{po_number}-request.xml").write_text(client.last_sent().str())
  Path(f"pos/{po_number}-response.xml").write_text(client.last_received().str())
  print(f"Processed PO {po_number}")  # noqa: T201
  sleep(2)  # Sleep to avoid overwhelming the server

[spice hill]

Why do you want to have the namespace as part of the key and not separate column? That sounds like a holdover from Redis or something like that

See how many things would be simplified if there was a namespace column

    def count(self, namespace: str | None = None) -> int:
        """Return the number of stored entries, optionally filtered by namespace."""
        with self._connect() as connection:
            if namespace is None:
                row = connection.execute("SELECT COUNT(*) FROM cache_entries;").fetchone()
            else:
                like = namespace + NAMESPACE_SEPARATOR + "%"
                row = connection.execute(
                    "SELECT COUNT(*) FROM cache_entries WHERE key LIKE ?;",
                    (like,),
                ).fetchone()
        return int(row[0]) if row else 0
``` I'm certain that this method is O(N) where N is the number of all entries. I wouldn't expect a full table scan to count how many entries there are in a namespace

[charred tusk]

I thought thats what indexes were for
It already has all the keys sorted so it can jump to right where it needs to
But IDK databases very well

[frosty oriole]

O(N) is worst case but if cache entries is indexed its faster im pretty sure

[spice hill]

Did you add an index?

[charred tusk]

not yet

[frosty oriole]

you should

[timid ember]

Index make faster

[spice hill]

i honestly don't know any good resources for this topic, i've been looking for some myself

[charred tusk]

caching or indexing?

[timid ember]

how would you cache a database

[spice hill]

database design and interacting with relational databases

[grim axle]

caching a database is rather funny.

I think they meant caching api responses or repeated (external) db calls, to a small db.

[charred tusk]

yep
API responses are getting inserted into cache.sqlite

I actually wanna change that
Claude put .db but I prefer being more expli.....
Oh Claude was smart
CACHE_DB_FILENAME = "cache.sqlite3"

[grim axle]

we using AI now

[charred tusk]

IDK why .db is such a big thing
I also don't know why I care

[charred tusk]

Yeah, getting example implementations for things that're new to me and pushing all the new shiny buttons in VSC along the way

I just clicked this button and it turned red and now VSC is doing something completely different than it was five minutes ago

[velvet trout]

This server's members shames AI while at the same time also uses AI

Hypocrisy! xD (i am just kidding)

[charred tusk]

Everyone having their own opinions isn't hypocritical

[velvet trout]

Just ironic to me sometimes

[cerulean ravine]

AI is controversial

[spice hill]

there are different people in this server, we are not a hivemind

[charred tusk]

yet

[cerulean ravine]

"we are not a hivemind... we are not a hivemind..."

[gleaming knoll]

"we are not a hivemind"

[velvet trout]

True

[cerulean ravine]

making the same joke proves we actually are

[grim axle]

after reading this "bikeshedding" debate; and with consideration of AI (Claude Code)-
I think that you should plan your approach a bit more.

think how you would want to interact with the code, and get more familiar with the abilities of SQL .
having a working demo would help.

don't let AI decide regarding structure and (key) design aspects.

before you know it, you'd be chained to a workflow you don't like; and forced to work with functions with half assed behaviors.

tldr; learn your stuff, and decide for yourself.
only then, if you must, face AI to assist you.

personal project just need to work, and be fairly manageable. (not AI bs)

[gleaming knoll]

alternatively it proves that humor is deterministic

[harsh anchor]

why is it funny?

[lost lagoon]

I use AI as autocorrect for code.....

[velvet trout]

Does that mean i can write a parser for humour without ambiguity? Yay!

I use three AIs to debate upon which term/word is recommended and more faithful to its task.

[grim axle]

why cache a (local) database, if you already have said database.

unless some repeated heavy queries are made, local db calls are rather fast.

[charred tusk]

PG has built in caching
Not sure if SQLite does too

[harsh anchor]

fast, but not as fast as memory

[modern hinge]

is it a good practice to use literal unpacking?
like instead of doing range(1, 10) several times or py min = 1 max = 10 range(min, max) ...
doing py x = (1, 10) range(*x)

[charred tusk]

Well thats what I'm doing
I got one implementation, went "I didn't like that very much", and now I'm here getting different ideas

[velvet trout]

overshadowing built-in min & max ?

[charred tusk]

🔥

[grim axle]

its best to have it criticize your code; auto correcting from the getgo usually breaks design intentions.

plan it (maybe with AI), only then implement it. otherwise it likes to hallucinate decisions and limitations.

[dry pike]

you could save the range to a variable

[robust ledge]

The first example is what I would use. It is more explicit as to what the numbers mean.

[dry pike]

some_range = range(1, 10)

[vale wasp]

"Explicit is better than implicit" Better to not use the unpacking.

[charred tusk]

oh hi dan

[modern hinge]

ok thx

[dry pike]

thoughts on this?

[velvet trout]

Noice

[lost lagoon]

I've been using LLMs instead of Google for long time now.....

[charred tusk]

oh no

[vale wasp]

That would work if you need to do it a lot.

[charred tusk]

Could functools.partial help here?

[vale wasp]

With what?

[charred tusk]

range_generator = partial(range, 1, 10)

[harsh anchor]

ranges are immutable

[vale wasp]

Just do my_range = range(1, 10) no need for a partial since you get a Range object.

[charred tusk]

hmm

[grim axle]

imo that's the best approach; it can research things faster.

some even made multiple agents, to search, discuss, and only then showcase the best matching data for a search query.

[robust ledge]

Use clearly named variables for the min and max of the range. Use range where you need range. Make it readable without any guesses as to what is happening.

[dry pike]

(why did you capitalize it?)

[vale wasp]

And, unlike Generators, you can reuse a Range

[charred tusk]

I didn't know that

[dry pike]

yeah range is a lazy sequence

[vale wasp]

I thought since it's a class it would be capitalized. I was wrong.

[robust ledge]

pendantically; range is a range. Not a list, tuple, sequence, collection, generator, or otherwise.

[dry pike]

builtin class

[velvet trout]

It is a sequence and sequence is iterable.

[charred tusk]

!pep 8

[edgy kraken]

**PEP 8 - Style Guide for Python Code**

Status

Active

Created

05-Jul-2001

Type

Process

[charred tusk]

Someone send this to the core team
they need it

[velvet trout]

lol

[vale wasp]

It functions similarly to a Generator though which is why people think it is.

[craggy trench]

the new builtin class is in lowercase btw, so no lesson learned

[vale wasp]

It's old. Probably predates PEP8

[velvet trout]

Should be set as a goal for Python 4

x: Int | Str | List | Dict

[robust ledge]

I agree. It also behaves like a sequence, though it is not a sequence.

Ranges implement all of the common sequence operations except concatenation and repetition (due to the fact that range objects can only represent sequences that follow a strict pattern and repetition and concatenation will usually violate that pattern).

[charred tusk]

no excuses

[dry pike]

ohyeah

[craggy trench]

!pep 661

[edgy kraken]

**PEP 661 - Sentinel Values**

Status

Accepted

Python Version

3.15

Created

06-Jun-2021

Type

Standards Track

[vale wasp]

All the excuses.

[cerulean ravine]

are we sure?

>>> isinstance(range(1), Sequence)
True

[velvet trout]

it got accepted?????

[robust ledge]

Well, now I'm learning things. This is good.

[velvet trout]

Since when

[vale wasp]

One of the unsung changes from 2 --> 3 was changing how range works.

[vale wasp]

Yesterday or the day before.

[robust ledge]

So it's an instance of an abc that doesn't implement all of the abc. :|

[dry pike]

mhm

[velvet trout]

I have been waiting for it since last year, finally!!

Another huge W for 3.15

[spice hill]

Btw, the correct annotation for a contextlib.contextmanager function is Generator, not Iterator. Maybe you're not running a type checker on your code.
https://github.com/python/typeshed/blob/68517355a3269be407bde20fea8fd66af2dc4241/stdlib/contextlib.pyi#L93

[unborn lagoon]

At this point they're trying to preserve convention, the idea being that builtin or C classes are lowercase and user-defined classes are uppercase (this comes from Python 2 when these two were effectively distinct).

[edgy kraken]

stdlib/contextlib.pyi line 93

"Annotating the return type as `​-> Iterator[Foo]`​ with `​@contextmanager`​ is deprecated. Use `​-> Generator[Foo]`​ instead."```

[gleaming knoll]

see the "Resolution" part of the PEP, https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-661-sentinel-values/9126/337

[vale wasp]

Probably won't get into 3.15 though - too late in the process.

[craggy trench]

since someone announced it in #internals-and-peps around 2 days ago

[velvet trout]

Nooooo

[gleaming knoll]

its already implemented, just needs to be merged
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/148831

[velvet trout]

Please!!!! Accept it for 3.15!

[vale wasp]

It is? Then it will be in 3.15

[velvet trout]

Yay

[charred tusk]

Uh... nope, nox -s lints runs both mypy and ty, and neither is flagging that line

[robust ledge]

Ah, I see. I'm just behind the times and didn't read far enough.

Changed in version 3.2: Implement the Sequence ABC. Support slicing and negative indices. Test int objects for membership in constant time instead of iterating through all items.

[charred tusk]

3.2?

Man, I'm gonna have to upgrade to that soon

[velvet trout]

☠️

[spice hill]

Yikes... none of them catch this. Pyright does: ```py
from typing import overload
from warnings import deprecated

@overload
@deprecated("stinky")
def stinky() -> None: ...
@overload
def stinky(x: int) -> None: ...
def stinky(x: int | None = None) -> None: ...

stinky()
``` mypy in fact never complains about calling deprecated functions at all

[charred tusk]

I think I remember reading something about that
That they explictly decided to ignore those

[spice hill]

why are you running both mypy and ty though?

just run mypy

[velvet trout]

Run mypy in strict mode 😋 it helps solve a lot of bugs that i never expected

[charred tusk]

Why not ty?

[spice hill]

unfinished, has missing features and still has @Todos

[charred tusk]

It is vaugely annoying
I have to put

[tool.ty.rules]
# False positives that mypy sees
unused-type-ignore-comment = "ignore"

But I like seeing how the outputs compare

[ashen cipher]

woah did discord's syntax highlighting change

[spice hill]

I was just trying to see if ty supports something now, and the entire playground crashed and caught fire

[dry pike]

it did

[ashen cipher]

i like it

[charred tusk]

Does it actually work now?

[dry pike]

no the colors

[ashen cipher]

probably not but there's bold

[charred tusk]

Bold?

[dry pike]

that's the TOML highlighting

[ashen cipher]

bold

[cerulean ravine]

the whole isinstance thing can get squidgy

[dry pike]

the colors changed, I thought that was what you were asking about

[ashen cipher]

what's the difference between an abstract base class and abstract art

they're both pretty abstract

[robust ledge]

While true, I was operating under knowledge that is no longer true. So I do appreciate you calling it out.

[vale wasp]

One teaches you something.

[cerulean ravine]

i tried it not knowing what the answer would be

[lament bobcat]

Do you have tips on finding modern stack buffer overflows not software patched but patched by hardware/OS/compiler security protection mechanisms in the latest technology? It’s for bug bounty testing.

[modern hinge]

why does isinstance(True, int) return True

[ashen cipher]

i presume you talk about abstract art

[vale wasp]

Because bool is a subclass of int.

[steady rain]

Because bool is a subclass of int.
True is 1 and false is 0

[ashen cipher]

everything's a really big int in my heart <3

[modern hinge]

thx

[main socket]

guys , does anyone has an excell thingy that might help me to find some command/ libraries for python ?

im a beginner

[spice hill]

(True is 1 and False is 0 is false though, 1 is a distinct object from True)

[charred tusk]

Join a “undisclosed private online forum” and get early access to Mythos

[ashen cipher]

does valgrind do this?

[charred tusk]

A what?

You want a spreadsheet?

[main socket]

yeah

[charred tusk]

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[ashen cipher]

it should

[charred tusk]

Do you have an example of the type of spreadsheet you want?

[ashen cipher]

well, only if a buffer overflow actually happens

[grand bramble]

#bot-commands

[main socket]

yeah , a library one

but like as i said , im new to python and programming overall xd

[charred tusk]

I don't understand the question

[main socket]

some of my friends just said that it would be useful to have one

[main socket]

1 sec

[charred tusk]

(labkit) @shenanigansd ➜ /workspaces/labkit (main) $ uv run untw cache info
Path:    /home/codespace/.local/share/LabKit/cache.sqlite3
Size:    20480 bytes
Entries: 0
(labkit) @shenanigansd ➜ /workspaces/labkit (main) $ uv run untw cache path
/home/codespace/.local/share/LabKit/cache.sqlite3

Is there any reason to have a dedicated subcommand just to print the path?

[main socket]

not really

xd

[vale wasp]

Yes

[lament bobcat]

I’m actually fuzz testing using mutation fuzzing some of the latest technology right now but I haven’t found any vulnerabilities yet

[paper kiln]

Hello!

[cerulean ravine]

"latest technology" like what?

[lament bobcat]

Latest Unix 64-bit based operating systems and Apache2/nginx

[lost lagoon]

Teleportation

[main socket]

oops , nvm , my bad , i just realized my dumb question xDD

[shy salmon]

hiiii

[velvet trout]

Hii

[lost lagoon]

The comma 😭

[charred tusk]

/usr/bin/gnumeric-1.12.60 (part of Firefox) has encountered a fatal error and was closed.
yeah thats not firefox

[main socket]

😅

[lament bobcat]

I’m going to post on Reddit

[lost lagoon]

Do as you pleased

[spice hill]

smh I can't reproduce the ty bug

only happens in the playground and under mysterious circumstances

I'll let their AI thing find the bug and fix it

[granite wyvern]

Can make scripting to get a single value easier.

[charred tusk]

Yeah I just couldn't think of a reason I'd want a script to have just that one path unless I was deleting it

(labkit) @shenanigansd ➜ /workspaces/labkit (main) $ untw kerp process-art-for-domestic-master "Domestic Master 04-24-26.xlsm" 
Processing designs ━━━╸━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━   9% 0:39:30

whyyy does 17k x2 HTTP requests take 2h
someone buy them faster server hardware 😭

oh kek thast says 39

As soon as I grabbed it it halved
I guess it head me

OH

Is the cache already making that big a difference?

lol

27% 0:15:54
that doesn't seem quite accurate

I will say
It is very convenient of this vendor to have absolutely no rate limiting

[frosty oriole]

is it sequential

[charred tusk]

Currently, yes

[frosty oriole]

yikes

[charred tusk]

What? Who does like 50k+ sequential HTTP requests??

[frosty oriole]

http requests are embarrasingly "parallelizable", so to speak

(concurrizable?)

[charred tusk]

parallelizable

IDK how I'd do that with this data though
I'm iterating over a spreadsheet one row at a time and combining data from different columns to make my search query

I could collect ahead of time
But at least ~10% is duplicates
So I'd need to filter out all the duplicate requests but still remember which set of rows need to updated for a given request
And at that point with all that mapping, I'm not sure that would be any better

[fathom beacon]

does python-help do code reviews? Like more experienced people giving feedback about quality of code or is there another dedicated channel for it?

[charred tusk]

There's a code-review tag

[fathom beacon]

Sorry I'm lazy

thanks!

[charred tusk]

🫡

[vale wasp]

#1035199133436354600 is not an unreasonable place to ask for someone to look at your code.

[pallid garden]

do note that the larger your codebase is, the lower the probability that someone will have enough free time to review it

[fathom beacon]

Fair

[charred tusk]

Man I hate progress bars
The upstream gets mad at me and slows down? "2 hours remaining!!"
I hit the 500 duplicates in a row? "only 5 minutes remaining!!"

[fathom beacon]

Actually kind of staggering how fast you get responses in this server kudos for that

[vale wasp]

If you have something specific you want people to look at, ask there.

[fathom beacon]

I will, thanks!

[charred tusk]

There are a LOT of us here

@pallid garden do !server

[fathom beacon]

!server

[edgy kraken]

Server Information

Created: <t:1483877013:R>
Roles: 149
Member status: 36,588 384,623

Members: 421,211

Helpers: 161
Moderation Team: 34
Admins: 13
Directors: 3
Contributors: 47
Leads: 6

Channels: 333

Category: 36
Forum: 5
News: 14
Staff: 122
Stage_Voice: 1
Text: 142
Voice: 13

[vale wasp]

And that's just your personalities 😉

[charred tusk]

😲

[charred tusk]

Oh damn
Anyone can do that?

[pallid garden]

the other programming servers have a ton of people too

but they are too busy dealing with the syntax /jk

[raven urchin]

I'll take notes for my own server, this looks clean af

[charred tusk]

https://discord.gg/UjetJNPk

The member count is MASSIVELY different

[pallid garden]

magnitudely different

[raven urchin]

I mean

Python is too cool

[frosty oriole]

it would most likely still be faster, since file reading is most likely also faster

[charred tusk]

Fair

It does take like a full minute just to load this file into memory

It's a 19 MB Excel file with values calcuated by macros

But once Python can get all the numbers it gets a lot quicker

[frosty oriole]

bro should memmap

[charred tusk]

Godlyyyyy

I should actually memray it
Just to learn how to use memrary
This thing takes so long to run I'll have plenty of time to push buttons

[kind thicket]

is the combination expensive?

If so, a map/reduce style might be relevant

[frosty oriole]

i honestly think doing this in a threadpool would net you some big performance improvements

[granite wyvern]

This is hard to do well, I’ve tried. And failed.

[kind thicket]

There is also a point in which you would want to do work with data while fetching stuff

[charred tusk]

Not even a little
Its a pinch of splits()s and just a dash of concats()

[grim axle]

we have 122 staff channels? I think the count is wrong... there might have been many channels in the past; yet they are now removed/locked these days.

[kind thicket]

then batching and parallelizing requests might be a better avenue

[robust ledge]

Joe's secret channel stash

[grim axle]

there's that too

[kind thicket]

faster to fetch 20 rows at a time than a row at a time

[grim axle]

right

[raven urchin]

[granite wyvern]

Every staffer gets a channel:-) you get a channel and you get a channel and…

[raven urchin]

Guys, today has been a weird day for me. I want to code and forget about stuff, what do you think is best? Continue breaking my mind around Tic Tac Toe on Pyside or go and play Codewars :b
Other suggestions are accepted too

[granite wyvern]

Sadly, these channels were probably created in series.

[grim axle]

third choice, work on a personal project rather than general issues.

[raven urchin]

I mean, I just want to distract myself for a little while

[fathom beacon]

What if the staff all got BEEEES

[raven urchin]

Why not a staff forum?

[grim axle]

I, for example, am working on a config interface and console manager with a local webpage.
-# you'd be surprised how much functionality exists in modern browsers nowadays...

[kind thicket]

play with perlin noise or learn about bspline

[charred tusk]

I'm actually curious what you guys would suggest

Deliverable

A production-ready bulk processing solution that:

• Accepts a structured input dataset (e.g., spreadsheet) containing design identifiers
• Processes the dataset against K-ERP systems of record
• Returns an updated copy of the dataset with relevant licensing and file status fields populated

The solution may be exposed via one or more interfaces (e.g., CLI, TUI, webapp), to be determined during implementation.
- https://github.com/[redacted]/roadmap/issues/173
They wanted a website but my non-technical boss didn't want to "give away [compute] for free".
I've got this CLI just for testing. And apparently we're going to give the client the CLI for the beta phase but they're not happy about being forced to do "that programmer stuff".
My org is too cheap to get me a code signing cert for me to sign some desktop app,
What're my options for user friendly UI?

[raven urchin]

bspline it is, idk what is that but sounds better than noise

[kind thicket]

It's how to compute curves in 2d/3d. Lots of fun and applications!

[charred tusk]

Oh shit its done

[raven urchin]

That sounds really cool, tell me more

[charred tusk]

(labkit) @shenanigansd ➜ /workspaces/labkit (main) $ untw kerp process-art-for-domestic-master "Domestic Master 04-24-26.xlsm" 
Processing designs ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ 100% 0:31:46

Yeah that's a QUARTER of the runtime
Dog bless cache

[raven urchin]

A quarter? Wow, that's an insane optimization. Can you explain what it is in simple words and what the optimization was?

[granite wyvern]

Let the CLI emit in html mode and turn it into a simple cgi script? Not entirely joking.

[charred tusk]

Caching HTTP responses to avoiding making duplicate lookups

[ashen cipher]

cash

[charred tusk]

holy fuck

[ashen cipher]

absolute dollar

[charred tusk]

There are.... 17,257 rows in the spreadsheet

(labkit) @shenanigansd ➜ /workspaces/labkit (main) $ uv run untw cache info
Path:    /home/codespace/.local/share/LabKit/cache.sqlite3
Size:    3604480 bytes
Entries: 9424
Namespaces:
  kerp: 9424

Only 9k of them are unique??
HALF of my HTTP requests were useless?????

[ashen cipher]

absolute duplicatoin

[charred tusk]

apparently

[raven urchin]

dollar sign means user

[charred tusk]

no wonder it made such a difference

[raven urchin]

I wonder why

[ashen cipher]

more than half

your median request is useless

your mean request is in a superposition of usefulness and uselessness but its leaning useless

of course that presumes useful and useless are equally weighted

[charred tusk]

I apparently really misunderstood the shape of the data

[charred tusk]

I think I've heard of that language once and it was on r/cybersecurity in an exploit

[ashen cipher]

i vaguely remember cgi but i als odont

[ashen cipher]

cgi? cgi isnt a language

[charred tusk]

o

[ashen cipher]

python had cgi support

until it got removed in... 3.7? 3.8? 3.6?

3.5-3.9

[charred tusk]

OH @ashen cipher its even worse

[ashen cipher]

?

[grim axle]

I've got a program to parse and manage some personal data. the core logic is already done.

issue is that although I've put flexibility into the code, along with config files and other knobs and switches– going through the configs and manually modifying parts everytime I want to change something is tedious. it also lacks "responsiveness"; like I will need to restart the program to reload the new config.

so I thought to make a GUI. from personal experience, the builtin modules are rather clunky, so I turned to craft a web application.

stuff is much easier now; even added custom config reload events and more.

even better, it now pushes the output to a visual showcase; calculated by the browser (using JS, WebGL, and other external js libs). lately, I also added remote functionality, to view and access the program from my phone while away.

working on your own projects (or side-projects) is fun and very productive.
there are many (more) things to add, customize and modify!

[charred tusk]

I'm making two HTTP requests for each of my 17,257 rows
And I'm caching both of them
So that's actually 34,514/9,424

25k pointless requests?

I owe the upstream an apolgoy

[ashen cipher]

...

[charred tusk]

Lets try it with all the data cached

oh boy we trucking

21s total

[raven urchin]

Oohhh that's so nice. :D

My most interesting project is a discord bot, and making a single useful command takes me a whole afternoon of investigating and testing

I really need to get better at these things

[charred tusk]

Hey it takes me that long too
Discord bots are weird

[raven urchin]

Too weird :b

Also, I absolute hate slash commands. They take too much to sync.

[charred tusk]

To much time you mean?

You can set a dev guild that syncs instantly

@frosty oriole knows that stuff

[grim axle]

look into other projects, example classes, and code snippets in the docs.

I found that copying, and modifying things to suit your specific needs teaches a lot, and saves a lot of effort.

[raven urchin]

I might have to try this, I usually follow the "If I can't make it, I shouldn't copy it".

[frosty oriole]

globals sync immediately now too

[charred tusk]

Wait what
Since when?

[raven urchin]

It took like 2 minutes for a command that literally only sends "This is a slash command" to sync.

Maybe I did it wrong, idk

[sand hornet]

That's just Discord

TLDR Discord's caching issues and discord.py have been a long-fought argument between rapptz and Discord for reasons I don't even want to get involved with

[swift sparrow]

You been practicing pyside?

[raven urchin]

Hiiii, YESSS, this morning I tried some stuff

I managed to replicate the player system

But I got stuck with checking wins and paused there

[swift sparrow]

Nice! Getting the hang of layouts and signals?

[raven urchin]

Yeah :3
I now want to go on with detecting the wins, and something to add over the CLI version:

After a win, you get prompted to have a second round, and it'll need a win counter for each player.

[grim axle]

lol. I usually follow, "If I can't make it, but need it- I should have it, then understand it".
-# note: this relates to real code; with some reasoning behind it.
-# often completed projects, preferably with a person to converse with, and understand their intentions & decisions.

-# AI code is rather peculiar, since it does not follow normal reasoning route; it does not have much considerations behind it- which often results in misleading and unreasonable coding practices.

[swift sparrow]

That's not too bad. You could just add a play again button

[raven urchin]

Yesss

Also, to get the hang of it, I could also write wins to a file to save them even after the game closes

[swift sparrow]

sure, that would work

you could display a log of previous games too

[raven urchin]

I'll see what we can do today, I at least want to make the win check

[charred tusk]

It used to be 24h

[swift sparrow]

maybe using a plainTextEdit widget

[raven urchin]

[raven urchin]

I think I saw this one, is that the big line edit?

[swift sparrow]

yeah, it's basically a multi-line line edit

good for text editors, but I often use them to log things

[raven urchin]

It also works to display logs, my friend's app uses that

[raven urchin]

Haha, we thought the same

[native coyote]

bruh I thought this was a seal

[swift sparrow]

I used it recently to view information about a widget. I use this for 3d software, it lets me create groupings of specific objects. I can right click and view what's in that group and it displays in a plainTextEdit

[raven urchin]

Whaaaat, that's soooo cool :0

[swift sparrow]

this is easily one of my most used pyside tools that I've built

[raven urchin]

Can I make a thread today too?

[swift sparrow]

sure I'll be around for a bit

[raven urchin]

Yay

[fathom beacon]

Do beginners actually read python docs, like no external libs?

sounds insane considering none of it makes sense to me, seems like more of a reference manual

[cerulean ravine]

the python docs are mostly a reference manual, yes.

[swift sparrow]

generally the docs work well for people familiar with programming already and are coming from a different language. As you build up your programming vocabulary, the docs will start to make more and more sense

[cerulean ravine]

what in particular are you looking for?

[fathom beacon]

That's what I thought as well, all though discord.py's docs are actually quite simple

[fathom beacon]

random module, had to resort to a tutorial because none of the docs made sense to me, new words etc.

Maybe I'm just tired, I'm going to sleep goodnight!

[cerulean ravine]

a tutorial is a good way to learn

[fathom beacon]

I figured, kinda felt like it was cheating at first but It's just efficient to get a grip on new things

[swift sparrow]

most docs should be simple if you have the underlying knowledge to understand them

there's a reason school isn't just handing you a textbook and saying "alright see you in 6 months"

[pallid garden]

textbooks arent reference though, they are large tutorials

maybe a closer comparison would be like a manual, or a dictionary

[swift sparrow]

yeah maybe that wasn't such a good comparison then

[cold kite]

Hi

Am new here

[spice hill]

That actually happened to me during the pandemic. Definitely one of the reasons I did not finish getting a degree

[cold kite]

I was told by a friend I can share my python projects here is it true?

[charred tusk]

#1468524576479641744

[cold kite]

Oh nice

Thanks!

[swift sparrow]

yikes, I weep for anyone who had to do any schooling during the pandemic

[charred tusk]

I weep for everyone's social skills

It was a trying time

[spice hill]

i weep

[charred tusk]

🫂

[cold kite]

Do you guys also help share the project on Reddit too if it's requested?

[charred tusk]

uhhhh.... no? I've never heard that before. Do you need help with Reddit?

[cold kite]

Yea

If you can help I will really appreciate

[charred tusk]

I've made like two Reddit posts ever

What do you need help with?

[dry pike]

nedbat mentioned

[charred tusk]

wat

[dry pike]

you said ned

[charred tusk]

o

[cold kite]

To help share my public project on Reddit too that's all

[rugged barn]

Owie

[charred tusk]

-# yeah

[rugged barn]

Hello dawg

[charred tusk]

Hello you

[rugged barn]

Been a while

What u up to

Besides hammering somebody's API

[cold kite]

What type of API

[rugged barn]

I don't know
Ask Dawg

[brisk gazelle]

I think it'd be really cool if someone made an API for beehive environmental monitoring and called it ApiAPI.

[cold kite]

Tell me more

[brisk gazelle]

Or APIary.

[cold kite]

I can create it if it's not that hard

Got free time on my hands currently

[rugged barn]

I don't think it's a weekend project

[verbal citrus]

i hate AI...i asked it to check the factuality of a convo and it argued with me until i proved it wrong.....sometimes it's genius ...sometimes it's like it's talking to a comatose idiot ..which then makes me suspicious of any complicated math questions i have for it

[cold kite]

@charred tusk do you wanna help 😊 (am talking about the Reddit post)

[cold kite]

Use a better model

[brisk gazelle]

Or some web service that gives you pictures of spiderwebs.

[rugged barn]

I wish I had some honey right now.
I could with some sweetness in my life

After the cold, bitter week.

[verbal citrus]

what's better than GPT 5.5?

[dry pike]

you just eat honey?

[rugged barn]

Yeah

[cold kite]

Opus 4.7

[rugged barn]

Why wouldn't I

[verbal citrus]

lmao lemme i have Opus lemme try with it