python-discussion

[vale wasp]

With all the traffic in here, you might be better off opening a help thread.

[crisp jay]

What was the bottleneck of this code?

[gleaming knoll]

the first argument to map has to be a function that will be called with 1 argument, the elements of the iterable
but move_file takes 2 arguments, right? so instead we make a partial application of it, with the destination being the path variable, and only leaving 1 argument to be filled - the file

[main swan]

Btw, you can get lots of program information (like current line number) with !inspect

[gleaming knoll]

!d inspect

[edgy kraken]

inspect

The inspect module provides several useful functions to help get information about live objects such as modules, classes, methods, functions, tracebacks, frame objects, and code objects. For example, it can help you examine the contents of a class, retrieve the source code of a method, extract and format the argument list for a function, or get all the information you need to display a detailed traceback.

There are four main kinds of services provided by this module: type checking, getting source code, inspecting classes and functions, and examining the interpreter stack.

[main swan]

thx

[gleaming knoll]

!d inspect.stack in particular

[edgy kraken]

inspect.stack

inspect.stack(context=1)```
Return a list of [`FrameInfo`](https://docs.python.org/3/library/inspect.html#inspect.FrameInfo) objects for the caller’s stack. The first entry in the returned list represents the caller; the last entry represents the outermost call on the stack.

Changed in version 3.5: A list of [named tuples](https://docs.python.org/3/glossary.html#term-named-tuple) `FrameInfo(frame, filename, lineno, function, code_context, index)` is returned.

Changed in version 3.11: A list of [`FrameInfo`](https://docs.python.org/3/library/inspect.html#inspect.FrameInfo) objects is returned.

[gleaming knoll]

sys._getframe is basically the same thing but more raw

[main swan]

In response to: How do you find this stuff? Years of looking at the docs for no good reason.

[vale wasp]

I've never seen "very" spelled "no".

[main swan]

I innovate.

[vale wasp]

Innovation is key.

[gleaming knoll]

did the explanation make it any more clear

[vale wasp]

And good docs.

[gleaming knoll]

good docs is innovation is key is not bread
because good docs taste better than key
or.. bread?

[vale wasp]

I don't eat my docs.

[gleaming knoll]

missing out

[vale wasp]

I try not to eat bread too.

[crisp jay]

Never tried out a key before

[gleaming knoll]

this is what real autism looks like

[vale wasp]

I recommend A Minor.

[main swan]

Also, I write a lot of code and ask other people to revise my code which will almost certainly point you to places in the docs you've never seen before.

(Amongst many other benefits)

Plus, I program in other languages than Python and pull brain damage from them.

[gleaming knoll]

my favorite one is other people can learn from it too

[vale wasp]

Why would you do something silly like that?

[main swan]

Because I'm a silly billy.

[wise cove]

Hello 👋, I just joined this server, and am learning python as parts of the languages I need to be a game developer

[vale wasp]

Welcome!

[wise cove]

Thanks

[main swan]

Might want to look into Pyglet of pygfx for games!

[raw bramble]

haha, no I know what Lambda does, I don't know how it does though

[main swan]

I don't really make games myself, but I make libraries that make game dev easier (see the project showcase for mine and many other projects)

[gleaming knoll]

thats what i was trying to explain yes
so i guess it didnt work

[vale wasp]

It's an anonymous function. It works like any other function.

[raw bramble]

like syntax i mean

[main swan]

(Small caveat: It doesn't have a name like a function does iirc)

[vale wasp]

lambda <params>:<return value>

That's pretty much the syntax.

[vale wasp]

Hence "anonymous"

[main swan]

Yup!

[raw bramble]

where does the argument that gets passed into the params go?

[gleaming knoll]

as in def functions, arguments bind to the parameter variables
(lambda x: x+1)(2) == 3, the 2 is passed as x

[lunar cobalt]

def is_under_thousand(number):
    if number == 1:
        return True
    else:
        return is_under_thousand(number - 1)```

[vale wasp]

my_func = lambda x: print(x)
my_func(5)

That will print 5

[cerulean ravine]

this function will not make you happy, for a few reasons

[main swan]

lambda <params>:<return value> roughly translates to:

def no_name(<params>):
    return <return value>

[lunar cobalt]

I know i know

1. it crashes instead of saying false

[cerulean ravine]

what are the reasons?

[vale wasp]

This is equivalent to

def my_func(x):
    print(x)

[lunar cobalt]

2. Its slow

[cerulean ravine]

3. It can never say false.

[lunar cobalt]

3. negative numbers (or 0) also dont return

[lunar cobalt]

well yeah this

[cerulean ravine]

no. even if you had infinite stack space, it would never return false.

[cerulean ravine]

there is no "return False"

[lunar cobalt]

and eventually crash because its out of memory?

[cerulean ravine]

forget the crash.

[brisk gazelle]

The < operator would be by far a more appropriate solution.

[lunar cobalt]

I wasnt actually proposing its a good function

[raw bramble]

So like this?

def move_all(path:str):
    with ThreadPoolExecutor(max_workers=50) as executor:
        executor.map(lambda file:move_file(file,path=path), get_files())

[cyan scaffold]

Does this make sense?

executor.map(lambda file: move_file(file, path), get_files())

# same as:
def move_file_to_path(file):
    return move_file(file, path)
executor.map(move_file_to_path, get_files())

[vale wasp]

Yeah.

[main swan]

Is somebody trying to reinvent some form of Peano arithmetic? Hmmm...

[gleaming knoll]

idk why you added keyword arguments but yeah?

[raw bramble]

does it work without path=path?

oh yeah duh 🙄

[vale wasp]

IT would work with move_file(file, path)

[crisp jay]

What if i input 0

[raw bramble]

:DDD

[crisp jay]

Or 100000

Or 10¹⁶

[sharp wadi]

Guys, can i share something?

[vale wasp]

RecursionError

[lunar cobalt]

.

[sharp wadi]

-# Nvm, i feel it wouldn't be related to the current topic

[gleaming knoll]

def foreach(iterable, function):
  for value in iterable:
    function(value)

def two_args(x, y):
  if x==9 and y==10: 
    s = 21
  else:
    s = x + y
  print(f"{x} + {y} = {s}")

def example(xs, fixed_y):
  def one_arg(x): two_args(x, fixed_y) # uses fixed_y from parent scope!! yaay closures very coool
  foreach(xs, function=one_arg)

example([9], 10)

does that make it any more clear

[cyan scaffold]

There is only one way to find that out

[cerulean ravine]

i can't tell if my "no return False" point landed or not

[sharp wadi]

huh

[main swan]

If it is a lot of code, you might want to consider doing a help thread. If it works, you might consider putting it in the project showcase channel.

[cyan scaffold]

Just share it

[lunar cobalt]

I wasnt asking if its a good function I made it cause its dumb (and thats part of why its dumb)

[sharp wadi]

Tbh it is just sharing something rather than needing help, better to put it into off topic, i guess
(And, sorry for interrupting)

[cerulean ravine]

ok, we were listing issues. i understand.

[lunar cobalt]

If you really want to you could do

try:
under_thousand = is_under_thousand(number)
except RecursionError:
under_thousand = False

[cyan scaffold]

Halting machine problem?

[gleaming knoll]

well, except RecursionError actually works

[main swan]

Nah, it's all good. You can share here. I do it all the time lol. Just trying to help point you in the right direction.

[crisp jay]

What if I input 99.9999998

[gleaming knoll]

but i hope no one uses it

[cerulean ravine]

still wouldn't get the right answer for 1_000_000

[lunar cobalt]

why not?

[lunar cobalt]

Imagine number was type hinted as int

[raw bramble]

yes! Thank you so much

[cerulean ravine]

because it will raise RecursionError when it gets to about 998000

[raw bramble]

I can feel my brain growing every time I solve a problem 🧠

[lunar cobalt]

well yeah, so the except catches it and says its False

[crisp jay]

@lunar cobalt
try:
under_thousand = is_under_thousand(number)
except RecursionError:
under_thousand = is_under_thousand(number)

[upper frost]

i just installed fedora and PyCharm

[lunar cobalt]

well that doesnt accomplish much does it

[cerulean ravine]

you are right

[main swan]

def recursive_lt(x: int, y: int):
    """For non-negative x and y."""
    if x == 0 and y == 0: # They are equal.
        return False
    elif x == 0: # x < y
        return True
    elif y == 0: # x > y
        return False
    return recursive_lt(x-1, y-1)

How can you adapt to negative numbers too?

[chilly whale]

any function that relies on when exactly RecursionError gets raised will have different behavior depending on how many call frames are already on the stack when it gets called

[crisp jay]

How do I disable Copilot on VSC

[lunar cobalt]

how do you change the limit for RecursionError?

[chilly whale]

sys.setrecursionlimit

[lunar cobalt]

thx

[gleaming knoll]

make a wrapper that will
if both are positive do the normal thing
if x negative and y isnt - true, since all negatives are smaller than any non-negatives
if x positive and y negative - false, same logic just switch places
if both are negative, do the lt in the other order since -2 < -1 <-> 1 < 2
checking whether they are negative or positive would be done with some new structural tag in a peano encoding

[main swan]

I know you know lol.

(But yeah, it's so fun to think of this stuff. Very Peano-y)

Although, using von Neumann ordinals we get the isomorphism between membership and less than

[main swan]

well for naturals, not Z

I miss math

[gleaming knoll]

like we had

data Nat
  = Zero
  | Succ Nat
-- And now we have
data Int
  = Pos Nat
  | Neg Nat -- though sometimes this is -(n+1) to not have 2 representations for 0, so it would be NegOfSucc or something

[main swan]

I might have asked you this a while back, but did you play the natural number game?

[gleaming knoll]

only like the first couple proofs
but i do use lean4 for fun

[main swan]

Ah good. It's fun.

I miss that stuff. I need to get back into it, but I'm dedicating the time I have energy to do stuff to my resume lol.

[gleaming knoll]

the last thing i wrote in lean is

def bigO (f g: Nat -> Nat): Prop :=
    ∃c: Nat, c ≠ 0 ->
    ∃x0: Nat,
    ∀x: Nat, x > x0 ->
    f x <= c * g x

theorem bigO.constant_multiplier
  {f g: Nat -> Nat} {m: Nat} (p: bigO f g):
    bigO (fun x => m * f x) g := by
      obtain ⟨c, q⟩ := p
      exists (c * m)
      intro cmnz
      have cnz := (Nat.mul_ne_zero_iff.mp cmnz).left
      obtain ⟨x0, le⟩ := q cnz
      exists x0
      intro x xgtx0
      dsimp
      have fleg := le x xgtx0
      conv => {
        rhs
        conv => lhs; rw [Nat.mul_comm]
        rw [Nat.mul_assoc]
      }
      exact Nat.mul_le_mul_left m fleg

absolute naming

[upper frost]

is pycharm good on 4 gigabites of ram

[main swan]

That's some neat python you got going there.

[chilly whale]

should be fine

[gleaming knoll]

gigabites
heehee

[vale wasp]

There are people who would say that the amount of RAM is irrelevant. Should be OK if you don't have too many windows open.

[ashen cipher]

being bitten a billion times cannot be good for you

[upper frost]

got it 👍

[ashen cipher]

with pycharm?

[vale wasp]

Yeah. PyCharm should be fine with 4GB RAM.

[chilly whale]

even the heaviest IDE won't use that much RAM. I'd be very surprised if you could get pycharm to use more than 1 GB

[gleaming knoll]

using lean4 without mathlib is certainly an experience

[vale wasp]

PyCharm can get heavy depending on the plugins you're running and how many windows you have open.

[ashen cipher]

the system requirements are 8gb with 3gb available for ide processes

[main swan]

If you're worried about resources just use vim or nvim imo.

[ashen cipher]

that's going to be higher than what it needs but it doesnt seem like... a fun time

[cerulean ravine]

@upper frost people will say "just use", but it's not always simple to switch to what they suggest

[gleaming knoll]

sublime would be "just use" and without much bloat

[main swan]

shhhhh

[ashen cipher]

!pypi justuse

[edgy kraken]

justuse v0.8.1.1

a pure-python alternative to import

Released on <t:1667322320:D>.

[main swan]

I'm curious

[ashen cipher]

package made by someone who was active here couple years back

[gleaming knoll]

#python-discussion message

[ashen cipher]

lambda mentioned

@gleaming knoll

[teal hare]

One question for the pro devs here, since im new into python i can do the basic things and make small systems but when it comes to something big i cant remember everything and i have to check Old code or Ask Ai or check Doc, is that normal or i should focus even more into learning these things untill i know everything ?

[vale wasp]

Nobody remembers everything. We all look at docs and reference other implementations.

[crisp jay]

This feels like Lua

[ashen cipher]

that's completely normal, i'd suggest mainly on focusing on reading documentation because its a skill you need to have

[gleaming knoll]

its only similar in the sense that the import is a function
but its actually very different in other aspects

[main swan]

I remember I had to do some import hacks for my website because I wanted to make it easy for newcomers to add problems to my website.

[crisp jay]

use("pprint").pprint()

[ashen cipher]

i think the goal was to model golang-style import?

[rare gazelle]

hello

[main swan]

and then i never touched import again.

[ashen cipher]

in terms of functionality

[teal hare]

okaay thank you!

[crisp jay]

Is there a library for adding C include in Python?

I want to have the old fun pain

[teal hare]

i will try reading more doc and learn it, thank you too!

[main swan]

Do you mean like ctypes or like literal #include statements?

[crisp jay]

The second

[ashen cipher]

vro wants to deal with linkers

[gleaming knoll]

exec the read of the file

[main swan]

I read this like a movie title: Exec: The Read of the File.

[gleaming knoll]

would watch

[main swan]

^ thumbs up (but I can't)

[gleaming knoll]

i finished watching arifureta yesterday and now im going to watch shield hero
absolute isekai ||slop|| but i like it

[main swan]

Is readthedocs still the way to go for adding docs? Or is there some new player on the block?

[vale wasp]

I use RTD.

[main swan]

Ok. I will probably use that then.

Thanks!

[ashen cipher]

i hear there's some drama around mkdocs but that's besidesthepoint

[timid ember]

Alot

[gleaming knoll]

so does cython and they recently updated the theme
https://cython.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ looks good now

[timid ember]

from what i heard, really bad maintaners

[ashen cipher]

just the maintainer in general

[ashen cipher]

maintainer [singular]

[vale wasp]

There is some drama there but I don't know what it is. Doesn't affect RTD though - you can use any static site generator to create the docs.

[ashen cipher]

there probably are multiple but it is around the one

[main swan]

Alright. I just need to get some decent modern looking docs for my projects quickly. Not too concerned about controversy atm.

(Normally would be tho)

[ashen cipher]

i mean rtd is just a place that hosts your docs :p

but yeah rtd is fine last i used them

[vale wasp]

I just realized we're using mkdocs for the docs for the SSG I maintain and I'm kinda wondering why...

[dusty ember]

the guys behind material for mkdocs went and made https://zensical.org

[dusty ember]

a fellow ssg guy? 👀

[vale wasp]

!pypy render-engine

[main swan]

SSG?

[vale wasp]

Yes. Yes I did.

[dusty ember]

yoo

[vale wasp]

!pypi render-engine

[edgy kraken]

render-engine v2026.3.3

A Flexible Static Site Generator for Python

Released on <t:1772460568:D>.

[dusty ember]

i love static site generators

[main swan]

oh.

[vale wasp]

Static Site Generator

[dusty ember]

i rolled the one my website is running on

[vale wasp]

I use RE for my website.

[main swan]

I need to make my github.io blog too. so. much. writing.

[vale wasp]

Why on github.io?

[main swan]

because it is free.

[dusty ember]

i've got mine running on cloudflare pages

[vale wasp]

I use https://teahouse.cafe for hosting. Run by 2 amazing Pythonistas and great for static sites.

[pastel sluice]

I rolled my own SSG with a WP-like web frontend. It's running on a hosting provider that has done me good for some years but I'm not too crazy about their newer plans. I might migrate when my contract with them comes up.

[main swan]

I have a site that uses render.com (not static) but I don't really want to pay more money haha.

especially since I'm not sure anyone would actually read my blog.

[dusty ember]

im doing a rather interesting major refactor right now

[ashen cipher]

is there functionally much of a difference? i guess cloudflare pages does run it on edge servers

[dusty ember]

finally moving away from sqlite for caching

[dusty ember]

nah not really, but you do get fancy stuff like cloudflare's DDOS protection, metrics, etc

and some other security things cloudflare does?

[vale wasp]

Why wouldn't we read your blog?

[dusty ember]

my domain is also managed by cloudflare so it's nicer to just have everything in one place

[ashen cipher]

you can use cloudflare metrics on github pages (in fact i do that)

[dusty ember]

yeah fair enough

i don't think i've set up metrics for my site as it is anyways

[main swan]

My questionable programming decisions 😛

[vale wasp]

Do you care about the metrics?

[dusty ember]

nah not really

[vale wasp]

All the more reason we would read it.

[ashen cipher]

wow my site has had 0 page views in the last month

[vale wasp]

I need to post something to my blog. But I don't know what I want to write about.

[dusty ember]

and im trying to decide on a nice way to establish dependencies between inputs

[main swan]

Just think of the spiciest most unhinged (programming) opinion you have and write that.

[pastel sluice]

Most of what I blog about is doing creative things (like writing my books)

[dusty ember]

there's a project out there that uses a query system to handle caching and incremental rebuilds, which seems interesting

[vale wasp]

Why C is the most memory safe language ever created?

[main swan]

Yeah. Title it: "My OS is Safe so C is Safe"

[silver plover]

Rust is slow and unsafe

[sacred cypress]

i wouldn't agree with that statement

[silver plover]

And, Windows is an excellent operating system

[vale wasp]

Neither would I. I was asked for "spicy and unhinged"

[autumn forge]

it is safe in the collective memory of programmers

[main swan]

"I Can Outrun the Borrow Checker (and so can you!)"

[sacred cypress]

oh i only read your message not the rest of the context

[ashen cipher]

linux is written in it and its safe
qed

[autumn forge]

qedisproved

[main swan]

Sel4 is verified and writen in C. So C is safe.

C + Coq is confirmed safety.

[vale wasp]

Python is written in C so C is safe?

[dusty ember]

does being C make it safe, or is it being safe that makes it C?

[vale wasp]

It has a great Navy protecting it.

[ashen cipher]

rust is written using llvm which is written in C and C++ therefore C and C++ is safe

[vale wasp]

I thought it was all corroded.

[ashen cipher]

yea corrosion not safe

[main swan]

Remind me later: Maybe I should write my own IR in Rust instead.

[ashen cipher]

osha disapproved

[main swan]

I actually need to learn more about LLVM (and related IR) I still don't fully understand why we don't compile to C more often.

I mean, I guess function calling conventions are part of the reason...

but I feel like there is more to the story.

[finite furnace]

Hi it's good topic I love that

[vale wasp]

Investigate and submit a talk to your local tech conference.

[main swan]

Unironically a good blog post (after some investigation)

[ashen cipher]

large language (virtual) model /j

[vale wasp]

Definitely. And then a good talk.

[main swan]

I compile my code to ChatGPT bytecode

I'm trying to remember the alternative to LLVM that was smaller in size...

[vale wasp]

A discussion here on NaN led me to writing this blog post and from there to writing a talk proposal for PyOhio. This is the way.

[main swan]

I'm thinking of QBE I'll investigate that and see why it's so useful.

[silver plover]

Oh, a spicy takes; 'ARY': always repeat yourself

[vale wasp]

Please no. Not after this week!!! I had to touch 240 files because we didn't follow DRY!!!

[dusty ember]

why we use IRs in the first place? Or just LLVM

[main swan]

That's what I want to know lol. I asked why not use C above somewhere.

wait im dumb

i misread: Yeah why we use IR as opposed to C for instance?

sorry

(Btw, i'm looking at SO answers and they're a bit handwavy imo)

[thick epoch]

Does anyone here have a good free Django bootcamp?

[chilly whale]

I mean, "duplication is far cheaper than the wrong abstraction"

[lunar cobalt]

is bool('False') False?

[gleaming knoll]

no, you could just check that in a repl

[chilly whale]

non-empty strings are truthy

[lunar cobalt]

was hoping they made it special

[lunar cobalt]

what a repl?

[gleaming knoll]

!repl oops

[edgy kraken]

Read-Eval-Print Loop (REPL)

A REPL is an interactive shell where you can execute individual lines of code one at a time, like so:

>>> x = 5
>>> x + 2
7
>>> for i in range(3):
...     print(i)
...
0
1
2
>>>

To enter the REPL, run python (py on Windows) in the command line without any arguments. The >>> or ... at the start of some lines are prompts to enter code, and indicate that you are in the Python REPL. Any other lines show the output of the code.

Trying to execute commands for the command-line (such as pip install xyz) in the REPL will throw an error. To run these commands, exit the REPL first by running exit() and then run the original command.

[gleaming knoll]

neat thing for small experiments
just keep one open and throw expressions in it when you think of something

[gleaming knoll]

why
that would be like, horrible. such a weird thing to special-case and will result in inconsistencies

[lunar cobalt]

Oh

[rotund steppe]

Explain why the first element of an array or factor is [0]. Can someone help me with this please?
I've always known first element of an array is [0] but now im asked why, i literally dont know

[gleaming knoll]

as in, why not 1?

[rotund steppe]

long time no see lambda

[chilly whale]

are you being asked this about Python specifically?

[rotund steppe]

yes, i know it has to do with memory of some sort

[dusty ember]

my initial take would be because for one, your language might want to be transformed to a format that's explicitly designed to be easy to analyze and work with, so you can implement all of your optimizations and transformations and whatnot without having to deal with an entire other language, like C, and deal with what C allows/doesn't allow.

[rotund steppe]

in general

[gleaming knoll]

kind-of but atp its irrelevant
its just a choice
in some algorithms working with [1; n] is nicer than [0; n), in some not
have a +1 here and a -1 there

[winged citrus]

Goodnight chat

[chilly whale]

it's not even true in general. Some languages use 0, some use 1

if you're being asked it about C or C++, there's an actual reason

[rotund steppe]

yes, its c++

[chilly whale]

for any other language, it's basically just arbitrary

[main swan]

Might want to check out: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html for why starting at 0 is a good idea.

[rotund steppe]

i've googled it but im having hard time understanding

[rotund steppe]

ayeee thyrgle long time no see

[main swan]

ayyyyyyy

[main swan]

I've been busy doing some stuff haha. Taking a break now. Will get busy. The cycle continues lol.

[rotund steppe]

but yes, in particular, c++ why array starts at 0. I'm studying for finals

[chilly whale]

for C or C++, it's because x[0] on an array is equivalent to *(x + 0). This also lets you write 5[x] in C and C++ instead of x[5], for one of the all time weirdnesses of the language, because *(x + 5) and *(5 + x) are equivalent

[winged citrus]

You too!

[gleaming knoll]

the first element of the array is at the start of the array which is 0 bytes offset from it

[winged citrus]

can u build a simple port scanner?

[dusty ember]

also it's worth noting that the C compilers are all going to go to their own IRs anyways (and if it's clang, it'll just be llvm in the end as well). If you want more control over what those specific optimizations and transformations and whatnot are, you probably don't want to just compile down to C

[gleaming knoll]

"can you for loop over ports and check if connect succeeds"

[rotund steppe]

can you explain to me like im 5 lol

[winged citrus]

can u make a simple port scanner?

without ai

[rotund steppe]

i been busy with uni too and work. Discrete math is kicking my butt

[main swan]

I can see the argument. But I guess I don't have concrete examples of why "more control is needed"

[gleaming knoll]

yeah, why? i just explained how

[winged citrus]

lol how do u edit so fast

[winged citrus]

you explained but can you show me

[crisp jay]

He uses a split keyboard

[gleaming knoll]

(i dont)

[winged citrus]

that was

[chilly whale]

indexing into an array in C++ is defined in terms of pointer arithmetic, and the 0th element of the array is the one 0 elements past the start of the array - the one exactly at the start of the array

[winged citrus]

fast.

[main swan]

Welcome to a weeder class.

[winged citrus]

GOODNIGHT AMIGOS!

[rotund steppe]

sleep well

[winged citrus]

THANKS YOU 2

[gleaming knoll]

just loop over the ports, try to socket.connect, if no exception - port open

[dusty ember]

me neither to be honest, but it's worth looking into an example of an actual complex compiler like rustc that definitely does its own stuff. if you look at rust's MIR, the stuff it does for ownership is well documented

[winged citrus]

okay thanks goodnight

[rotund steppe]

im pushing through though

[main swan]

Alright. Thanks! That sounds like what I'm looking for! I will.

[gleaming knoll]

ghc core

[rotund steppe]

i've read this like 50 times. im stuck over " 0th element of the array is the one 0 elements past the start of the array"

[gleaming knoll]

an array is basically a chunk of memory and you know where the start of the chunk is
the first element is right at the start of the chunk, its offset by 0 bytes (not offset at all, basically). thats it.

[rotund steppe]

right

[main swan]

If you draw out what it looks like in memory the pointer is located at the first "cell" of the array. You increment it to go to the next "cell". But you don't increment it at all to simply be at the first element so it has an index of 0.

[rotund steppe]

muy bien, got it

[chilly whale]

pointer arithmetic lets you find elements of an array relative to the start of that array. If you've got an array of 5 ints int x[5] then:

| 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 |
^   ^   ^
|   |   |
x   x+1 x+2

The first element of the array is *(x+0), which is defined to be x[0]

[crisp jay]

The best I can explain is about 0 being the first number in a byte

[rotund steppe]

btw is this chat strictly dedicated to python or we can discuss other languages as well

[half pewter]

they come up but there are more appropriate servers for discussions about other languages

[rotund steppe]

i cant wait for semester to be over so i can go back to python programming

[rare gazelle]

i dont understand that sentence either to be fair

[chilly whale]

"the first number in a byte" doesn't really make any sense. A byte is not subdivisible in C, the smallest unit of memory you can point to is a byte

[rare gazelle]

one 0 elements

[chilly whale]

there's an implicit "that is"

English has a lot of those

the 0th element of the array is the one (that is) 0 elements past the start of the array

[rotund steppe]

im still confused so you're good broski

[rare gazelle]

oh

[rotund steppe]

i get the intuition behind it but cant quite articulate it

[pastel sluice]

it's a way of saying "how many steps are we taking past the beginning?"

[crisp jay]

A byte goes from 0 to 2⁸ - 1,so 0 is the first element

Or number

[smoky pasture]

Hello

[pastel sluice]

if we start at the beginning, we take no steps, so the first index is zero

[rotund steppe]

thats kind of what i got

in the simplest way

[smoky pasture]

How can i turn er diagram to table please

[chilly whale]

are you sure it doesn't go from -128 to 127?

[crisp jay]

Just the basic one 😭 🙏

[chilly whale]

char can be signed or unsigned in C, it's implementation defined

[rare gazelle]

i think that is an implementation detail

[chilly whale]

"the basic one" could be either 0 to 255 or -128 to 127

[rare gazelle]

a byte is defined as 8 bits, i think so

[crisp jay]

✅

[rare gazelle]

what you do with those 8 bits is implementation detail

[chilly whale]

mathematically, if there is an array at byte address A consisting of elements that are each of size S, then element N is at byte address A + (N*S)

[chilly whale]

nope, not in C. C and C++ define it as at least 8 bits

[rare gazelle]

a byte can be more than 8 bits?

[fiery yarrow]

and strictly speaking, an octet is 8 bits. a byte can be any number

[crisp jay]

No

[chilly whale]

in C and C++, yes

[rare gazelle]

interesting, i didn't know that

[crisp jay]

Huh

[cerulean ravine]

when C started, machine were much more diverse. Now, bytes are always 8 bits

[chilly whale]

https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/intrinsic-types#bits-per-byte

I think there are still some extant machines where the minimum addressable amount of memory is 16 bits or 32 bits. They're rare and weird, but I've heard they still exist

[cerulean ravine]

do we know of current implementations that have more than 8 bits per byte?

[rare gazelle]

i see

[rare gazelle]

thats very interesting

[crisp jay]

So a "byte" could be defined as a N group of bits?

[rare gazelle]

from what thuri said, at least 8

[crisp jay]

Its strange to see byte that isnt 8 bits

[rare gazelle]

oh nvm, i read his sentence wrong (read it again)

any amount of bits i suppose

[chilly whale]

Some DSPs, apparently. "The example which seems the most relevant of current architecture with non-8-bit-bytes is TI’s TMS320C28x, whose compiler manual states..." per https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2025/p3477r3.html

[chilly whale]

in C and C++, yes. It's not the most common use of the word "byte", but it is what those languages currently use it to mean.

in most contexts, "byte" does indeed mean "octet", but it means something different in C and C++

they use it to mean the smallest uniquely addressable unit of memory

[rare gazelle]

a unit of memory yes, thats why it doesn't have a defined value

char uses 1 byte, if signed it can store a value between -128 to 127

if unsigned 0-255

[chilly whale]

at least -128 to 127, and at least 0 to 255

possibly more, on weird platforms (like the TMS320C28x)

[rare gazelle]

i see yea

[crisp jay]

64-bit byte what a cursed thing to see

[chilly whale]

it's mostly a historical curiosity that you won't need to deal with if you're writing code for desktop CPUs. The non-8-bit-byte thing only applies to weird special purpose hardware

[rare gazelle]

should've used the term octet

although i think most people don't know about this term

[twin furnace]

i must not have it even after downloading pyenv and all of that umm, that exact version of 3.12.13 also isnt there hmhmhmmmm idk what to do

[rare gazelle]

i didn't know byte can be not an octet

[hybrid nebula]

Some really esoteric platforms don't have unsigned numbers

like Java

[pallid garden]

https://github.com/pyenv/pyenv/blob/master/COMMANDS.md#pyenv-install didn't work?

[chilly whale]

C's octet type is called int8_t or uint8_t, but there's no guarantee that an implementation will provide that type

[hybrid nebula]

Isn't it allowed to be bigger?

uint9_t when

[chilly whale]

no, that'd be int_least8_t

[dry yacht]

Java has Integer.compareUnsigned, Integer.divideUnsigned, Integer.remainderUnsigned, and Integer.toUnsignedLong. Take it or leave it 🐒

[hybrid nebula]

Oh, BTW
LLVM has that

[lunar cobalt]

Absolute cinema

theorem AbsoluteTruth:
Given:

Then:
    true
Proof:
    true

[rare gazelle]

leave js

[dry yacht]

huh?
JS != Java

[hybrid nebula]

what language is that

[twin furnace]

no it wouldnt let me get the version idk why ;/

[rare gazelle]

yea thought i'd word play on it

[twin furnace]

im also on windows

[rare gazelle]

not a good word play though

[twin furnace]

i used the port too

[lunar cobalt]

one im making

[pallid garden]

port?

[hybrid nebula]

Will you assume the law of the excluded middle?

[pallid garden]

did you already send the error message previously?

[lunar cobalt]

Which is?

[hybrid nebula]

If something isn't true, it's necessarily false

and its negation is then true

[lunar cobalt]

no, it doesnt. If you claim that something is true, it being disproven or false makes the claim "wrong", not false but "not right". if you claim something is false but its true or unproven the same happens

[hybrid nebula]

If I prove a theorem under the assumption P holds, and I prove it again under the assumption !P holds, have I proven that theorem?

[pallid garden]

have you done this?

I'm going to be perfectly honest, by the time you are looking for a job, quant firms would have likely moved on to later versions of python

[lunar cobalt]

theorem QgivenP:
    Given: 
        P
    Then: 
        Q
    Proof: 
        ...

theorem QgivenNotP:
    Given: 
        P is false
    Then: 
        Q
    Proof: 
        ...```

You could do this

And then call whichever you need

[fiery yarrow]

3.6
byte
addressable unit of data storage large enough to hold any member of the basic character set of the execution environment
if i'm reading a version of the c standard correctly, the definition of "basic character set" in 5.2.1 describes the minimum characters required, not maximum, so you might be able to define the basic character set as all of unicode, thus allowing - and requiring - a 32-bit byte

[chilly whale]

yes, you can

the size limit mostly comes from the "addressable" part, though, not from the "basic character set" part

the big reason why some platforms have bytes that are more than 8 bits is because those platforms don't allow you to address an arbitrary group of 8 bits

[sterile topaz]

What’s python

[hybrid nebula]

I should make a logisim computer with 11 bit bytes

[hybrid nebula]

A programming language known for being easy to learn

[sage mural]

When I use powershell in my flask app this pops up on opening powershell why is this happening?

(Set-ExecutionPolicy -Scope Process -ExecutionPolicy RemoteSigned) ; (& c:\Users\myself\OneDrive\Desktop\mypp\app_env\Scripts\Activate.ps1)

Please ping on reply

[fiery yarrow]

also why the heck does the iso not make C an open standard 😡

[hybrid nebula]

$$$

[pallid garden]

windows' security feature, it's normal

[sage mural]

I was just worried by this part (Set-ExecutionPolicy -Scope Process -ExecutionPolicy RemoteSigned) ; ty

[charred tusk]

How did you get that?

[sage mural]

I don't know

[hybrid nebula]

as opposed to the Windows vulnerability feature suite

[sage mural]

it wasn't always like that

[pallid garden]

it sets execution policy to allow running programs that are signed

[pallid garden]

huh?

[hybrid nebula]

called Microsoft Copilot

[pallid garden]

well it was always like this on windows for me

[fiery yarrow]

"imma make my own c compiler!"
"alright, what is C exactly"
"why do i have to pay USD$290 to find out what C is "
"alright i ain't gonna make a compiler"
i bet this kinda process happens fairly often

[hybrid nebula]

There are open final drafts

[pallid garden]

anyone who is able to write their own C compiler would likely have... other methods

[jagged nacelle]

Vscode extension, I also have that

[charred tusk]

Running scripts is turned off in Windows by default
That allows local scripts only in that one specific terminal, to give it permission to run the activate permission for Python, then everything goes back to normal when you close the terminal

[fiery yarrow]

are there open changelogs between the publication and the final draft though

[charred tusk]

What extension?

[sage mural]

I mean it would not (Set-ExecutionPolicy -Scope Process -ExecutionPolicy RemoteSigned) ; have this part but I opened the app after a while and it does it now.

[jagged nacelle]

Idk ;--;

[pallid garden]

this runs automatically?

[sage mural]

yes when I open powershell

[jagged nacelle]

Im afk I can try to look which extensions I have later

[fiery yarrow]

do you have an extension named code runner by chance

[charred tusk]

It sets Windows to allow local scripts that are not signed
But remote scripts are still on the default requiring signatures

[pallid garden]

that sounds like a CVE waiting to happen

[charred tusk]

That’s my guess
I’m really confused what extension thinks it’s okay to set the users execution policy for them

[sage mural]

just checking

Nope I don't have runner

How did this happen

[twin furnace]

windows port of pyenv, idk its fine im just going to use the most recent python

im unfamiliar with this stuff so might as well

can always downgrade in the future

[charred tusk]

You should always the use the latest and only look at something else if you have problems

[fiery yarrow]

does this occur only when you open powershell within VSC, or also when you open it externally

[pallid garden]

the quant firms are going to upgrade

[ashen cipher]

guys i need opinions

should i still recommend uv in the big 26

[sage mural]

just vscode

[twin furnace]

true, but i think most are on that exact version rn

[fiery yarrow]

as opposed to what else?

[pallid garden]

are you looking for a job there right now?

[charred tusk]

[fiery yarrow]

uv seems to hate kat for some reason, but it seems fine for everybody else afaik

[charred tusk]

Nothing else even comes close right now

[ashen cipher]

idk pyenv or whatever

[charred tusk]

Have you asked what kat did to it?

[ashen cipher]

pyenv/pip/pipx

[twin furnace]

interning soon, trying to get practice environments setup alongside my own settings and such so I can get more familiar with everything ill need

[ashen cipher]

the stack

[fiery yarrow]

ran uv init somewhere on D:

[sage mural]

Its just in vscode powershell should I be concerned?

[pallid garden]

they will have their own onboarding process

[charred tusk]

Pyenv installs Python
What about everything else that uv does?

[hybrid nebula]

just use pip, venv and /usr/bin/python3.xx

[pallid garden]

dont worry about that

[fiery yarrow]

joe suggested pdm for kat

[ashen cipher]

pyenv can basically replace venv

[ashen cipher]

pip & pipx

pdm

[charred tusk]

PDM is the main competitor
Hatch is becoming okay

[twin furnace]

you're right thanks for your help

[charred tusk]

Poetry still in the toilet only for devs that hate their jobs so they can say “waiting on the lock file” while it takes 30m to generate

[hybrid nebula]

but why

[charred tusk]

but how

[ashen cipher]

pyenv has conda-style venv

and i like it

[charred tusk]

You’re gross

[ashen cipher]

:(

[charred tusk]

Mom! This guy is scary!!

[hybrid nebula]

net negative

[sage mural]

Nevermind I solved it

[jagged nacelle]

What was it?

[charred tusk]

What did you see!?

[sage mural]

I accidentally typed 2 things at once I delete the up and down arrow text memory and it went away

[jagged nacelle]

huh

[charred tusk]

https://xkcd.com/979/

[sage mural]

Nope it came back

[jagged nacelle]

Yeah its a extension or something

[sage mural]

Let me list every extension or something I am worried

C/C++ related
C/C++
C/C++ DevTools
C/C++ Extension Pack
C/C++ Themes
CMake Tools
General / Web
Live Server
Python related
Pylance
Python
Python Debugger
Python Environments

It seems ai written because I took pictures and you can't upload them so I just asked the ai to type them

[fiery yarrow]

code --list-extensions also works from a shell

[sage mural]

when I try that a new window pops up

of vsc

[fiery yarrow]

apparently this requires an external shell.
somebody on so lied 😡

[jagged nacelle]

Whats an external shell?

[hybrid nebula]

is vsc on PATH automatically?

[fiery yarrow]

powershell, bash, command prompt, etc, but excluding the integrated one that's inside VSC

[half cradle]

i made a master piece

[sage mural]

@fiery yarrow

Also when I click on powershell highlight it I get

powershell

Process ID (PID): 11508

Command line: …\powershell.exe -noexit -command 'try { . "c:\Users\user\AppData\Local\Programs\Microsoft VS Code\560a9dba96\resources\app\out\vs\workbench\contrib\terminal\common\scripts\shellIntegration.ps1" } catch {}'

Shell integration: Rich

Does this contain any senstive data?

[half cradle]

import random
x=random.randint(1, 6)

if x == 3:
print("you got three")
else:
print("you did not get 3 better luck next time")

[edgy kraken]

Hey @half cradle!

Please edit your message to use a code block

```py
print('Hello, world!')
```

This will result in the following:

print('Hello, world!')```

[half cradle]

i put my blood sweat and tears into this

[fiery yarrow]

the envar window tells me the user path includes C:\Users\[me]\AppData\Local\Programs\Microsoft VS Code\bin, presumably placed by the installer

[hybrid nebula]

ah OK

[fiery yarrow]

also why is nearly every single program afraid of using % variables for paths

[sage mural]

So everything is okay? I am still confused why it is happening. It happens whenever I open a folder in vscode

just same env I would have to try a different env

[jagged nacelle]

@sage mural it seems to be python enviroments extension

when I disabled the auto run script removed the policy thing

YEAH

[fiery yarrow]

ah, python environments. an extension forced upon users, hated by many, and so eager to break stuff.
lasted on my computer maybe 20 minutes

[jagged nacelle]

@charred tusk
Microslop is doing the venv activation thing

> (Set-ExecutionPolicy -Scope Process -ExecutionPolicy RemoteSigned) ; (& ...\.venv\Scripts\Activate.ps1)

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-python.vscode-python-envs

[sage mural]

Okay I worried

sorry about that Ty everyone I just never seen it before until a few days ago

[jagged nacelle]

If u never used this extension just disabled it like I did >:3

[sage mural]

I use venv

[pallid garden]

tbf

they added this policy to powershell themselves

[granite wyvern]

I'm feeling like an idiot this morning.

The docs for input() say it writes its prompt to stdout.

My testing shows it writing to stderr.

Running interactively, it writes to stdout.

I'm debugging a module which writes "live" status lines, and they go to stderr. So I've got 2 ttys, and I'm sending stderr to the second one so I can do things in the first without affecting the display.

So to exclude my module, I'm running this:

#!/usr/bin/env python3

input("input 0: ")

and to exclude my shell aliases and other gunk I'm running this:

/usr/bin/python3 indemo.py 2>/dev/ttys031

The "input 0: " prompt shows up on the other terminal, which is stderr. Gah!

But interactively:

$ /usr/bin/python3 2>/dev/ttys031
>>> import sys
>>> print("other tty", file=sys.stderr)
>>> input("input 0:" )
input 0:xx
'xx'
>>>

which shows the puython header on the other terminal (surprise!) and also the print to sys.stderr on the other tty:

Python 3.9.6 (default, Aug  8 2025, 19:06:38)
[Clang 17.0.0 (clang-1700.3.19.1)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
other tty

but is pretty clearly doing the input() prompt to the main terminal, aka sys.stdout. As expected.

WTF?

[cerulean ravine]

this might help you: https://discuss.python.org/t/input-prompt-doesnt-always-go-to-stdout/106581

[chilly whale]

whoa boy, does that ever seem like a bug

I think that the prompt should be written to terminal (this is already so on Windows). If only one of stdout or stderr are terminal streams, it should be chosen for output
That's... interesting. I don't think I agree, but it's interesting...

[granite wyvern]

It's a huge bug. There's always been tension between where the prompt (in programmes in general) should go and where it gets sent. Personally I'd often sent to stderr because my programme's output might be going to a pipe or file or whatever - don't want a "plug" bug.

But the docs should be explicit about what it does, or clear that the behavour may vary, and frankly I'm very much for giving it streams for the input and output, like print's file=. To give precise control when precise control is wanted.

[granite wyvern]

Oh, I don't like that much - I don't really like programmes having too much wired in "policy", or at least policy complexity.

I'll roll my own, just print/input(""), for now. But ugh.

[rapid harbor]

is there a general channel??

or a promo channel?
I have a friend who is making a game, but wants to promo his server so that he has more people for launch day

[pastel sluice]

the only kind of promotion permitted here is of open source Python projects, in #1468524576479641744

[rapid harbor]

wrong server, I thought this was Pygame

[fading notch]

best modules for nice n simple terminal ui / interface

[manic flare]

I use print… you can do ui in the terminal?

[charred tusk]

!pypi textual

[edgy kraken]

textual v8.2.3

Modern Text User Interface framework

Released on <t:1775380365:D>.

[jagged nacelle]

PyInquirer

[sacred cypress]

textual or batgrl https://github.com/salt-die/batgrl

[charred tusk]

What’re you, Sherlock Holmes?

[jagged nacelle]

:3

[charred tusk]

!pypi PyInquirer

[edgy kraken]

PyInquirer v1.0.3

A Python module for collection of common interactive command line user interfaces, based on Inquirer.js

Released on <t:1542914535:D>.

[fading notch]

no i mean like these raw classi style ones like one i made , wanna see it ?

[jagged nacelle]

textual looks so good

[indigo phoenix]

I wonder how many environments actually bother to sign their scripts.

[charred tusk]

Not mine

https://github.com/shenanigansd/scratchpad/blob/main/scratch/software/excel/quote-csv.ps1#L1

[edgy kraken]

scratch/software/excel/quote-csv.ps1 line 1

Import-Csv .\file.csv | Export-Csv .\file2.csv  -NoTypeInformation -Encoding UTF8```

[charred tusk]

Free and clear
No pesky signatures required

You can just use it
No paperwork required

[vale wasp]

It is good.

[vale wasp]

There's always paperwork.

[charred tusk]

[vale wasp]

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**What's your favorite use of recursion in Python?**

Suggest more topics here!

[vale wasp]

Unpacking nested dictionaries.

[craggy trench]

magic functions that go over nested things and produce some kind of value from it

[vale wasp]

What kind of magic functions are you talking about?

TBH I primarily use recursion for AoC.

[charred tusk]

I’ve used recursion exactly once

I needed to extract files in nested zips

[vale wasp]

Outside of school.

Nested zips?? What insanity is that???

[charred tusk]

You’re still in school?

[vale wasp]

I'm not in school.

Well... I'm in the school of hard knocks, but who isn't?

[pallid garden]

i use recursion even when i shouldnt 🤣

(FP)

[pseudo thunder]

guys it is not time to make hack the iran

[vale wasp]

I use recursion all the (I use recursion all the (I use recursion all the time) time) time.

[cerulean ravine]

this doesn't sound like a good topic

[pseudo thunder]

Have a beautiful day

[fiery yarrow]

it also doesn't really make sense

[charred tusk]

For $WORK I do commercial printing, so I work with gigantic machines that needed a dedicated file for each color.
$BIGGESTCLIENT’s system has them upload a zip of all the individual per-color TIFF files, and a preview JPG.
When we click download it zips them together to download a single zip, creating the nested zip.

[vale wasp]

That's what TAR is for.

[charred tusk]

ew

[fiery yarrow]

forget not the feathers

[vale wasp]

Unzip them and tgz them.

[charred tusk]

Windows couldn’t do tar until this year

[vale wasp]

You poor thing.

Python can do tar.

[pallid garden]

flew too close to the sun

[vale wasp]

Even on Windows.

[charred tusk]

Yeah but Pillow keeps fucking up the images

[vale wasp]

That's why Thuri said to remember the feathers.

[fiery yarrow]

beeswax
well no wonder it failed

[vale wasp]

But you can unzip them all and then make a tarball for transport/storage.

[charred tusk]

Try explaining that to users

[fiery yarrow]

i was referring to the tarring and feathering, rather, a more macabre reference

[sand hornet]

I mean, tarfile is fun when you play with it in-memory

[vale wasp]

I know. But it played well into Icarus.

[pallid garden]

why didnt daedalus use superheated carbon-carbon composite, is he stupid

[fiery yarrow]

RCC is hella brittle ya know

[pallid garden]

i cannot hear you over this solar wind

[fiery yarrow]

go to the spaceclothing store and spacebuy some windbreaker spacepants i guess

[pseudo thunder]

spase...

has a stars in is....

[pallid garden]

buy a parka

the same one they used on the parka space probe

[vale wasp]

We've kinda jumped the shark.

[pallid garden]

investigating the fabric of spacetime

[pseudo thunder]

fabric.... make some close....

[vale wasp]

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**What's your favourite aspect of Python development? (Backend, frontend, game dev, machine learning, ai, etc.)**

Suggest more topics here!

[vale wasp]

Tooling.

[manic flare]

Game dev

[pseudo thunder]

making terrible cli apps repeatedly because I don't know what to build

[narrow tiger]

machine learning right now but I want to branch out into more actual python software instead of hacking away at ML/AI

[pallid garden]

came for the ML, stayed for the python?

[narrow tiger]

Exactly! I came from a fortran/matlab/embedded C world and got wrapped into Python for the ML stuff for an applied math masters and just loved it

[pallid garden]

that's a very different world wow

[narrow tiger]

I like that python is so easy to get started with, like matlab, but also this is free and way more versatile

[vale wasp]

And Python has a great community. Does matlab have a nice community?

[narrow tiger]

I haven't met very many people from the matlab community outside of work settings but they seem nice

dont care as much about the language though

just a tool to get them from point A to point B, seems like python people care more overall philosophically and problem solving-wise

[fiery yarrow]

matlab's dedicated array elementwise syntax is kinda neat and sometimes i wish other languages supported it more

[pallid garden]

i actually used matlab over python for my qm classes

[vale wasp]

To quote Brett Cannon, "I came for the language. I stayed for the community."

[pallid garden]

it's just a lot easier when you only care about the results

[vale wasp]

How dare thee!

[narrow tiger]

Seems like a good reason though, easier to do matrix computations and vectorize things

[vale wasp]

Not every language is suited to every task.

[fiery yarrow]

type hints for qm must be like
foo: Particle[¯\_(ツ)_/¯, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

[narrow tiger]

hahaha

[pallid garden]

i want to learn qiskit

[narrow tiger]

same, that sounds like fun. On my list once I finish my masters

[pastel sluice]

I imagine the Maybe type comes in here somewhere a lot

[half pewter]

does a function act as an observer or nah?

def foo:
if random.randint(1) == 0...

[charred tusk]

Talk to ACE

[pallid garden]

i know

they were the one who recommended me

[dry pike]

doesn't look like a minecraft block to me

[silver plover]

That's a nice saying. I've (we've) been burned by weak community many times.

[vale wasp]

🍿 watching the Ruby drama continue to unfold.

[pastel sluice]

what's happening there? (I haven't followed the Ruby community in quite some time)

[fiery yarrow]

is ruby the place with dhh

[vale wasp]

The decided to go off the rails following the Shopify takeover. Let me find the post...
https://rubycentral.org/news/a-new-chapter-for-ruby-central/

[charred tusk]

Yes

[vale wasp]

Yes.

[narrow tiger]

off the rails feels like a great pun

[pseudo thunder]

"We have parted ways with our Executive Director, our PR agency, our CFO, and concluded several contractor engagements." insane opener

[dry pike]

i did not read that last word right

[pseudo thunder]

neither did I, and I was really confused for a second

[charred tusk]

DREAM stands for Driving Ruby's Evolution to AI Maturity.
Is also bad

[charred tusk]

[vale wasp]

As I said, "Ruby off the Rails"

[crisp jay]

No more Ruby

[manic flare]

There is a reason for this message hidden within this message

[fiery yarrow]

dhh is the common name of a major ruby dev and creator of ruby on rails, who made a blog post about "muh immigrants are ruining the uk" that other rubyers weren't really fond of

[dry pike]

Ruby getting railed

[vale wasp]

It's a nice little distraction.

[dry pike]

oof

[vale wasp]

David Hamburger Helper

[pseudo thunder]

David Has Horses

[pastel sluice]

Oh dear god

(that's my reaction to reading this material)

[vale wasp]

Dog has no place in this material. They are Dog-forsaken at this point.

[crisp jay]

Imagine a language entire image being entitled to a framework made by a guy and he starts to talk shit

[charred tusk]

Dog here
Dog forsook them long ago

[vale wasp]

He looked at RMS and Linus and said, "Hold my beer."

[pseudo thunder]

Linus Torbjorn, the maker of linerx

https://tenor.com/view/linus-torvalds-linux-red-hat-systemd-linus-droidvalds-meme-gif-10541460064743329819

[half pewter]

I haven't written python for a week

because that would be too long

[granite wyvern]

Much the same.

[dry pike]

how do you unpack a nested dictionary?

what is the result?

flattening?

[half pewter]

use dataframes for that

[granite wyvern]

Well, more to transform it to something more suitable for some other task.
Most recently my print_obj debugging function which tries to print nice nested listings of nested things. It calls printt (which prints simple tables) and uses tabulate_obj to construct the table, and tabulate_obj is recursive:
https://github.com/cameron-simpson/css/blob/a596f5859e248420fa8a8e7c0e8a5046285c3f6c/lib/python/cs/debug.py#L886

[edgy kraken]

lib/python/cs/debug.py line 886

@ALL```

[half pewter]

was just about to ask if there's something cheaper than pl/pd for tabulating data

[granite wyvern]

My printt is for flattish text grids. Though it has a recent nested mode for indicating nesting.

[manic flare]

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**What are you currently working on in Python?**

Suggest more topics here!

[dry pike]

I made myself an easier way to make UML class diagrams with Graphviz

using python to generate the dot file

[manic flare]

Well, I got a longer term project where I’m making a game with some more complicated stuff, but I got a small project where I’m making a small td game

Just got bored amid my bigger one

[half pewter]

giving bs4 and regex some actual attention, trying to hack a .gov website for their public access flat files

[swift sparrow]

A setup for automatically laying out environment textures for 3d models!

[half pewter]

(not breaking any rules, ftp is just blocked on my network)

[granite wyvern]

And i forgot to say, calls pformat for nonstrings in cells.

[nova breach]

How much of code of Discord is written in Python?

[steady rain]

this article had the most information on this that I could find: https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2020/10/08/real-time-communication-at-scale-with-elixir-at-discord/

(I know it says elixir--it mentions how they use python in the article)

[unique sandal]

hello, I was wondering if u guys have any pdf books about python or sites that I could get resources from?

[swift sparrow]

For beginners?

[half pewter]

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[half pewter]

Some of Al Sweigart's more advanced books are also free.

[pallid garden]

see #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[calm scroll]

From peoples experience here, how long did it take you to become somewhat fluent in python? This means being able to solve rigorous problems with minimal to no help

[harsh anchor]

define rigorous

[wise yarrow]

I feel like the ability to solve X type of problems isn't really indicative of python fluency

[steady rain]

the python rabbit hole is exceptionally deep, but I think you can get to a point where you consistently know what you're looking at in three months

[robust ledge]

Still learning. Everyone's jouney is different.

[calm scroll]

Well not per say rigorous but such that you know what you are looking at, ex you look at a random piece of code and be able to understand what’s happening rather than have no clue

[jade robin]

what's python (/jk)

[calm scroll]

I see

[slow rivet]

Well that depends on the code, there's some really confusing python code out there

[chilly whale]

it took me somewhere around 6 years, I'd say. Python was one of my first languages, I never really learned it very well, and I went back to it much later after learning many other languages

I remember having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around references and deep vs shallow copies the first time around...

[swift sparrow]

To be actually comfortable turning ideas into code, it was at least a year, but that doesn't necessarily mean I was writing great code

[calm scroll]

I see

[calm scroll]

I see

[swift sparrow]

I look back at code I wrote years ago that's pretty bad, but also got the job done so I guess it was good enough at the time

[robust ledge]

Code that works is what is needed.

I get to see code I've written 2-6 years ago now running in prod. Makes me wince, but I can't argue that it works.

[tight cloud]

i find the VS code so confusing to use

[swift sparrow]

Do you still struggle with the syntax?

[pallid garden]

i have no idea why python does deep and shallow copies until i learnt about references from other languages

[raven urchin]

hello beautiful people!

[calm scroll]

Not as much anymore I watched and practiced using a bunch of yt tutorials to begin, and now I’m doing cs50p

[granite wyvern]

Started learning about descriptors.... just last night. I've been pythoning for many years.

[swift sparrow]

So you can write conditions, loops, functions, classes, etc, without reference?

[calm scroll]

I can write all of those without reference but like the bare basics of each

I still struggle with a lot of dunder methods etc

[swift sparrow]

if you're reading other code and not understanding, it should be an issue of "I don't know why they wrote that" and not "I don't even understand what that line is doing"

[granite wyvern]

You're not obliged to use it. (Or are you?) I find it confusing.

[calm scroll]

I see

Im hoping cs50 clears up any confusion i have I’ve heard good things

[tight cloud]

well i used to use IDLE but i have been trying to use the Visual Studio Code these days

[swift sparrow]

it sounds like you're at the point where you just need to be building your own projects, not trying to use more tutorials

if you know all the syntax, then just start coding

[calm scroll]

I still have some confused on oop but I’m just gonna grind through cs50 first

I’m on week 3 I been doing a week per day

[swift sparrow]

you should be doing a week per week

[bronze dragon]

you're doing the problem sets too, I hope?

[swift sparrow]

it's not a race

[calm scroll]

Yes

[calm scroll]

I just got a lot of free time

[swift sparrow]

your goal now should be to write as much code as possible. Solve problem sets, write toy code, build projects, etc

[chilly whale]

yeah, same. It was really hard for me to understand. tbf, I think Ned's names talk really helps people learn it now! I learned before that existed, haha

[tight cloud]

how do i end a program when a certain condition is met in VS code i tried 'breakpoint' but it doesnt work

[calm scroll]

Where are some places I could practice problem solving

Are there places where I can get project ideas

[swift sparrow]

I recommend codewars and advent of code for problem solving

Go and solve dozens of problem sets, you will improve much quicker than watching more videos

[granite wyvern]

breakpoint() stalls a program and drops you into the debugger to see what's going on.
sys.exit() will abort the whole programme.
Usually we try not to do that - we just can the work to be "finished". Exit the loop or whatever.

[granite wyvern]

!kind

[edgy kraken]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[bronze dragon]

depends on how you've structured the program, but look into sys.exit
breakpoint is really for debugging, you shouldn't use it for exiting or such

it doesnt work
never just say "it doesn't work" when asking for help. describe what you expected and what happened instead.

[tight cloud]

but when i add 'break' it still doent work

[granite wyvern]

But ideally, pick something small which could do with being solved for you.

[calm scroll]

Alr

[calm scroll]

Ty

[drifting hill]

Is there are good LLMs or ML algorithms for trading and all that or is that too advanced for LLMs right now? I just got into ML and feel it could be a good tool for trading, but I'm also ignorant in the space right now

[granite wyvern]

It's not magic. Turn the question on its head: why does the programme keep running? Change that.

[tight cloud]

its a number guessing program and i wanted that the program should end when i have guessed the number

[granite wyvern]

guessed = False
while not guessed:
    .........
    if guess == answer:
        print("well done!")
        guessed = True

So when the guess is correct, set a flag to say so. Make the while loop honour the flag.

[calm scroll]

@swift sparrow another question is sometimes I find it difficult to understand python documentation, how this you get past this barrier

[chilly whale]

the deck is stacked against retail investors. Institutional investors will eat your lunch if you try clever trading algorithms. Any strategy other than buying a diverse set of instruments and holding is basically just gambling

[swift sparrow]

Do you have an example of something you're looking at now that you don't understand?

[calm scroll]

I’ll just pull up an example wait

[bronze dragon]

reading the docs as a beginner requires you to be able to ignore things that aren't relevant to the problem at hand

[grim axle]

simply raise SystemExit exception. it should propagate throughout.

either manually raise

raise SystemExit
```or simply use the function `exit()`
```py
exit()

though conventionally, you'd want to have a more specific error/reason for terminating the program early.
or alternatively, wrapping the code in a function block, then skip/quit only that part of the logic.

[bronze dragon]

don't try to understand everything just yet. focus on extracting useful information.

[swift sparrow]

Yeah, a lot of it requires you to have the full programmer vocabulary

[tight cloud]

i am using 'for' when i did the code in IDLE it worked as i hoped but in VS its not doing the sam eoutput

[swift sparrow]

so if there's words you don't understand, it might be worth following that rabbit hole to learn the terminology

[granite wyvern]

They really ought to behave in essentially the same way. We'd need to see the specific example.

[slow rivet]

Well python code should work the same no matter where/how you run it. Maybe open a help thread in #1035199133436354600 and share some screenshots

[bronze dragon]

IDLE doesn't have the greatest ergonomics for nested blocks -- probably something to do with that

[calm scroll]

How long would you say this took you?

That’s probably a huge obstacle for a lot of ppl starting out im guessing

[pallid garden]

what even is "full programmer vocab" though...

[torpid sparrow]

yall need to containerize your apps

its more smoothie if you do docker compose watch

[swift sparrow]

I still see words I don't understand 😅

[granite wyvern]

To a degree. But you can pick things up incrementally.

[torpid sparrow]

hot reloading all ur stuff together

[swift sparrow]

lol yeah exactly

[torpid sparrow]

just use a terminal and docker compose, even if it's just tests for a script in a container*

[tight cloud]

oh nvm i fixed it myself

[tight cloud]

this really helped me thanks

[bronze dragon]

this varies a lot, depending on which resources you use, how much you talk to other programmers, etc

[calm scroll]

I see

repr(object, /)¶
Return a string containing a printable representation of an object. For many types, this function makes an attempt to return a string that would yield an object with the same value when passed to eval(); otherwise, the representation is a string enclosed in angle brackets that contains the name of the type of the object together with additional information often including the name and address of the object. A class can control what this function returns for its instances by defining a repr() method. If sys.displayhook() is not accessible, this function will raise RuntimeError.

This class has a custom representation that can be evaluated:

such as something like this
I have no idea what’s going on

[tight cloud]

i formed sentences and i found that i used break earlier so it made the program not continue then i added break after the condition is met and so when the condition isnt met the python reads from above again

[swift sparrow]

Well, break it down. What don't you understand specifically?

Do you know what a string is? Do you know what an object is? Do you know what printable means?

[calm scroll]

Yes

[bronze dragon]

let's try and extract useful info for this example. to begin with, was there a specific reason you went to repr's doc to begin with?

[tight cloud]

whats an object

[swift sparrow]

any piece of data in python is "an object"

123 is an object. "abc" is an object. True is an object

[tight cloud]

oh ok thanks

[calm scroll]

I was just pulling up an example that looks foreign to me since fashoomp was asking what something confusing looks like

[steady rain]

"object" is just a fancy word for "thing"

[swift sparrow]

Yes, but we need to pinpoint what you do and don't understand. That's how you should approach programming problems too

[chilly whale]

if you've learned what data types are, then objects are just the things that have those types. "hello" is an object whose data type is str, 123 is an object whose data type is int, etc

[calm scroll]

Is the best way to learn by just testing different functions out in an ide without knowing what exactly they do

[bronze dragon]

OK. did you read all of it? surely you got at least something from it, can you try to say what you think repr does?

[swift sparrow]

but also types are objects 😅

[chilly whale]

yes, but we probably don't need to get into that now 🙂

[swift sparrow]

Not always, documentation exists to tell you what something does

[calm scroll]

Return something in a string?

[tight cloud]

how can i edit my VS code layout so that the place where i put codes comes on left and the output screen comes on right

[swift sparrow]

there's a bit more to it than that

[bronze dragon]

yep. can you, by reading the docs, refine that "something" into more concrete terms?

[swift sparrow]

can you tell us what part of the repr documentation you don't understand specifically? Any words you don't understand?

I remember struggling with repr but it was more of a "I don't understand why we would use this"

[granite wyvern]

It's a good way to get a feel for a particular function.

[bronze dragon]

just trying things in a REPL is underrated. but you should learn to read docs, so this is not a substitute.

[calm scroll]

Eval but I guess that’s something I have to learn

[swift sparrow]

eval simply converts a string into actual code

[calm scroll]

At the end it’s saying that I can modify what repr returns by defining this method? Which I’m guessing is some kind of dunder method

[swift sparrow]

so if I had a string "1 + 1", python could evaluate it and return 2

[swift sparrow]

yes, __repr__ is the dunder method

A class can control what this function returns for its instances by defining a __repr__() method

[bronze dragon]

Return a string containing a printable representation of an object.
do you understand this sentence?

[calm scroll]

I know what those individual words mean I’m just having a hard time understanding what that sentence means

I understanding everything other than printable representation

[bronze dragon]

"printable" just means what it literally says -- "can be printed"

[granite wyvern]

A dict (for example) is a data structure. But to look at it we want some text which describes it. That's a "printable representation".

[bronze dragon]

"representation" is more abstract, and hence perhaps tricker. the string that is returned represents the object in some way. as in, it gives you information about the object and the data in it.

[swift sparrow]

class Car:
    pass

car_object = Car()
print(car_object)

do you know what the output of this program will be? What happens when we print custom class objects?

[tight cloud]

can i change the output of how i want it like i earlier made a game and the output seems very congested

[swift sparrow]

You can do whatever you want 🙂

[calm scroll]

It just prints out main car and bunch of characters

I might be wrong

[tight cloud]

but how do i do so that it prints from a new line or after some spaces the output rn is :
pokemon game
charizard
pikachu
scizor
press enter to continue
missed
enemy HP: 100
dmg dealt 6
player HP: 94
press enter to continue
dmg dealt 14
enemy HP: 86
dmg dealt 50
player HP: 44
press enter to continue
missed
enemy HP: 86
dmg dealt 17
player HP: 27
press enter to continue
dmg dealt 28
enemy HP: 58
dmg dealt 44
player HP: -17
you lost

[swift sparrow]

That's correct, but it's also not very useful information

!e

class Car:
    pass

car_object = Car()
print(car_object)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

<__main__.Car object at 0x7fd575f7c6e0>

[chilly whale]

for understanding repr, it's probably best to just look at examples

[swift sparrow]

like the one I'm about to show 🙂

if we want to control how our custom object is printed, we have two dunders we can use

__str__ and __repr__

[calm scroll]

I see

[swift sparrow]

!e

class Car:
    
    def __str__(self):
        return "A shiny new car!"

car_object = Car()
print(car_object)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

A shiny new car!

[swift sparrow]

simply by defining __str__, we have overridden how our object is displayed when printed

[calm scroll]

I see

[swift sparrow]

but, this isn't always the case

__str__ is only used if our object is printed directly

but, if our object was contained inside something else, like a list for example, it reverts back to the ol' memory print

!e

class Car:
    
    def __str__(self):
        return "A shiny new car!"

print([Car(), Car(), Car()])

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

[<__main__.Car object at 0x7fa02a1786e0>, <__main__.Car object at 0x7fa02a170550>, <__main__.Car object at 0x7fa02a170690>]

[swift sparrow]

we can actually see this happening with the string class too

!e

print('123')
print(['123'])

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | 123
002 | ['123']

[swift sparrow]

ever noticed how strings don't display their '' when printed, but they do when they are inside a list?

[calm scroll]

Yea

[swift sparrow]

that's because we are seeing the repr of the string here

[calm scroll]

I see

[swift sparrow]

!e

text = 'abc'

print(text)
print(repr(text))

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | abc
002 | 'abc'

[swift sparrow]

a common way to think about the difference in __str__ and __repr__ is that __str__ is for the user, and __repr__ is for the programmer

[calm scroll]

Oh I see

[swift sparrow]

let's look at an example of a slightly more detailed class

!e

class Card:

    def __init__(self, rank, suit):
        self.rank = rank
        self.suit = suit

    def __str__(self):
        return f'{self.rank} of {self.suit}'


card = Card('Ace', 'Spades')
print(card)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

Ace of Spades

[swift sparrow]

when printed, this card just shows a simple print about our card's rank and suit

[calm scroll]

Yep

[swift sparrow]

but if that was printed in a list, it would be super confused

[Ace of Spades]

if this was my output, well what am I even looking at?

I want to know that I have a list of "card objects"

so this comes back to the eval note in the docs

in __repr__, we typically want to return a string that could eval back into our object

Card('Ace', 'Spades')

in that case, this is how we created our object

so the returned string would look something like

"Card('Ace', 'Spades')"

but, we want it to be able to display whatever its actual rank/suit is

!e

class Card:

    def __init__(self, rank, suit):
        self.rank = rank
        self.suit = suit

    def __str__(self):
        return f'{self.rank} of {self.suit}'

    def __repr__(self):
        return f'Card({self.rank!r}, {self.suit!r})'


card = Card('Ace', 'Spades')
print(card)
print([card, card, card])

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | Ace of Spades
002 | [Card('Ace', 'Spades'), Card('Ace', 'Spades'), Card('Ace', 'Spades')]

[swift sparrow]

so now have a look at the difference between how our object looks when printed directly vs. how it looks when contained in a list

Much more useful to us as the programmer to see what we have

[calm scroll]

I see

[swift sparrow]

Thank you for coming to my TED repr talk

[calm scroll]

Np lol tysm for helping

[swift sparrow]

np! Ultimately it's really up to you how you want to visualize your instances

but those are the rough guidelines to keep in mind

if you only have __repr__ and no __str__, then __repr__ will be used in place when printing the object

[slow rivet]

(I do think rusts naming for the same concept gives a much clearer distinction here as well, they call it Display and Debug)

Because both str and repr return a string that's a representation of the object :/

[sterile topaz]

-# age is just a number, unless you define it as a string

[dry pike]

ts not tuff vro

[pallid garden]

but what if you define it as a char, then it would be BOTH a number and a character

[tame vapor]

you cant define ages with two digits in a single character

[dry pike]

⑲

[tame vapor]

are there unicodes with all double digit numbers ?

[kind thicket]

isn't ascii code covering that?

[exotic solstice]

btw age is a word and not a number

[dry pike]

number is a word

[tame vapor]

34 you have two charaters , 3 and 4

[tame vapor]

lmao

a word is 32 bits

[kind thicket]

Just use ". See https://www.asciitable.com/

[tame vapor]

💀 , you have to store the numberes as characters , not have a character with that value

[bronze dragon]

only up to 50

[tame vapor]

mmm

[pallid garden]

but what if my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandma is 256 years old

[kind thicket]

I can define ages as a byte. I don't need multiple characters. How you display it is different from how you store it

[kind thicket]

You meant she is 0 years

[tame vapor]

we are talking about different encodings though and if u try to store an age as ASCII characters , for double digit ages you would need 2 bytes , one for each digt

[kind thicket]

Why would I need 2 bytes when I can store the age in a single byte?

[tame vapor]

because thats how you store ascii text

[pallid garden]

actually she is NUL years old

[kind thicket]

so your premise is you store the age as a string and nothing else

[dry pike]

I'm End of Transmission Block years old

[tame vapor]

thats what the convo was , yes , not raw memory
sure you can fit upto age 256 in a single byte , assuming a byte is 8 bits
but thats not what we were discussing 🤷

what would it mean to have negative age

[kind thicket]

you mean 255?

[pallid garden]

unborn nephew is 255 yea-

dammit recursive

[kind thicket]

technically correct is the best kind of correct

though now, I want to define age as a system of equations

[flat root]

Hi everyone, I'm new here.

I just joined, because i got curious about learning python.

[quartz fulcrum]

hello

[flat root]

I have no programming knowledge. Where do I start?

[bronze dragon]

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[flat root]

Cool! Thanks!

[twin furnace]

ooo I just got an acceptance letter from the University of Wisconsin-Madison! Idk how cracked the school really is, nor if I wanna go there but I'm happy cause the campus is awesome 🏌🏼‍♀️

[placid moth]

Hello 👋🏻👋🏻

I have made this exciting project using python

CV vision Car Game 🎯

https://youtu.be/0KztVZHxDlA?si=m96spPi169adBB6u

[somber mulch]

How did you do it?

[brittle grail]

wdym by how ? by his brain ofc bro

[somber mulch]

maybe a vibe coder

[brittle grail]

ig

who knows but great project

[somber mulch]

People have already built it, I guess.

[brittle grail]

[rapid mulch]

I’m importing os and my terminal won’t display color

[granite wyvern]

Do you mean your terminal can't display colour, or you expect colour and it's not showing up?

[rapid mulch]

I expect color

[granite wyvern]

The os module doesn't provide any colour features.

So, what're you doing which should be coloured.

[rapid mulch]

I would told os.system(“”) is a ‘fix’ for terminals that don’t display color

[rapid mulch]

Yes

[granite wyvern]

The empty string?

[rapid mulch]

Yeah

[granite wyvern]

os.system passes a command to your shell to be executed.

Passing "" should do precisely nothing.

[rapid mulch]

😭

[ocean ridge]

u want colorful terminal text??

[rapid mulch]

Yes

Health bar

[granite wyvern]

There are escape sequences which render text in colour honoured by most modern terminals. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#Colors

[ocean ridge]

wait

i have an old prohect doing that lemme open and give u easily

[granite wyvern]

There are python packages for rendering text in colour.

here's some example code of mine i use for colour: https://github.com/cameron-simpson/css/blob/main/lib/python/cs/ansi_colour.py

There are packages like rich etc on PyPI fordoing more versatile things.

[rapid mulch]

Package..?

[granite wyvern]

!pypi rich

[edgy kraken]

rich v15.0.0

Render rich text, tables, progress bars, syntax highlighting, markdown and more to the terminal

Released on <t:1775982240:D>.

[granite wyvern]

Things you can pip install

[rapid mulch]

Oh

[granite wyvern]

py -m pip install rich

[rapid mulch]

What’s the different between pip3 and -m

[ocean ridge]

@rapid mulch Colorama is easier

from colorama import Fore, Back, Style, init
init(autoreset=True)
print(Fore.RED + "Red txt")
print(Fore.GREEN + "GREEN txt")
print(Fore.WHITE + Back.RED + "white txt in red bg")

[granite wyvern]

!pypi colorama

[edgy kraken]

colorama v0.4.6

Cross-platform colored terminal text.

Released on <t:1666665382:D>.

[rapid mulch]

I’ll look into both of these later

Rlly bad mindset if I wanna learn something new rn

[granite wyvern]

pip3 runs pip using whatever python it was associate with.
py -m pip runs pip with the python associated with py, which should be your python

[ocean ridge]

from colorama import Fore, Back, init
init(autoreset=True)
print(Fore.BLACK + Back.CYAN + "testing")

look how simple it is

[granite wyvern]

We recommend the -m pip incantation.

[ocean ridge]

just import fore, back and init for this. autorest means ur resting terminal color to default after changing color and printing. after this u print with Foreground color and bg color with ur text. isnt that simple

Style isnt needed my bad. ihad it in my project imports ad forgot to delete it

[rapid mulch]

What o was planning to do was have a color dict with “red”: “\033[91m” so I can use it in methods

[ocean ridge]

you can do that too but colorama is simpler

[granite wyvern]

Works well. You can see an example of exactly such a dict in the ansi_colour code I pointed to above.

[rapid mulch]

Colorama would also hopefully work

I don’t know what’s wrong with mine, 0 errors and it just doesn’t print