python-discussion

[tame vapor]

someone who doesnt want coding needs stuff to be fun or else they just give up , close coding and gg

[slow gust]

Tysm!! Ill search that up 🤩

[velvet trout]

Inside list literal [] it takes expressions for items, where items are separated by a comma.

[dusk adder]

The Usual™ (©Mickrosoft)

[pastel sluice]

here's a good guide to getting started: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/python/python-tutorial

[tame vapor]

if you try to teach them stuff perfectly with all the good practices , they are just gonna get bored and quit
because you have to learn lots of boilerplate and boring things to do all the "best practices" from the start (typehinting for example)

[raven urchin]

VS Codium exists tho

[velvet trout]

@flint jewel

[slow gust]

Oh okay tysm bro I appreciate it and also.could a game made with Python be exported into the App store?

[inland karma]

no

[velvet trout]

[slow gust]

Tysmmm!! 🤩 🤩 🤩 🔥

[pastel sluice]

which App store?

[slow gust]

Ohh.Then what for i need python

[dusk adder]

in my days we'd use IDLE

[slow gust]

Like Google play stire or the apple app store

[raven urchin]

I use Neovim on my phone

[velvet trout]

What's the difference between IDE & IDLE?

[pastel sluice]

Python is not well suited to making mobile applications

[flint jewel]

that's so confusing, so list compresion it doesn't take the inside as string but in anyother thing it does

[dusk adder]

IDE is a generic term whereas IDLE is a specific thing

[tame vapor]

if someone is asking for python editor
i am here to spread the pycharm propaganda
use it , it is good

[slow gust]

Ohh.So Only for Computer?

[inland karma]

learning programming is a great things, it unlocks hidden superpowers when it comes to what you can do with a computer

[raven urchin]

IDE means Integrated Development Environment.

IDLE is a Python code editor

[velvet trout]

How so? Full form? What exactly is so explicit about it?

[pastel sluice]

it's best for PCs and servers. mobile apps are really their own thing

[golden mortar]

I think it's better to try to do a large project without type hinting, and experience first hand what kind of pain that can cause, because then you'll gladly use them for your next project, when you can clearly and intuitively see what kind of benefit they bring.

[velvet trout]

Its not a string you see, it's a repr of list with range, most probably.

[slow gust]

So all others programming languages can export to mobile yet python cant*

[bronze dragon]

perhaps, I can see that being valid. but it's also true that people who love coding are usually drawn to a free exploratory style. no one really likes boilerplate, after all.

[dusk adder]

whereas you cant download IDE, you can download IDLE
it's like asking what the difference is between a movie and "Bee Movie"

[tame vapor]

sure , thats one way too , probably a good way to show why it is useful

[slow gust]

Oh.but like how are ppl gonna use my App or Game if it isn't in Mobile

[stray field]

Note to self: update the readme more often

[pastel sluice]

some can, some can't. if you specifically want to make mobile apps, there's a subset of languages most worth learning

[inland karma]

no, that is very very rare

[inland karma]

you can make web apps for mobile, no worrieis

[flint jewel]

odd_numbers = [range(1,20,2)]
for odd_number in odd_numbers:
print(odd_number)
odd_numbers = range(1,20,2)
for odd_number in odd_numbers:
print(odd_number)

[edgy kraken]

Hey @flint jewel!

Please edit your message to use a code block

```py
print('Hello, world!')
```

This will result in the following:

print('Hello, world!')```

[flint jewel]

can you run it here ?

[inland karma]

dont add range in a list

[slow gust]

Like those that I can download from a website?

[bronze dragon]

it doesn't become a string, it stays as a range object.

[flint jewel]

why does it work with list comprehensin and not a range

[velvet trout]

I don't quite get you tbh

[inland karma]

no, it will be the website itself

[slow gust]

Oh okay tysm I appreciate that!! 😊

[inland karma]

that is possible to explain if you have time, but not in this channel, it is to noisy

[slow gust]

So python is generally considered for building websites right*

[flint jewel]

I ran it, it just prints "range(1,20,2)"

[inland karma]

no, python is used for almost everything, thats just one thing

[flint jewel]

sure

[inland karma]

you misunderstand what you see

[bronze dragon]

yes, that's the representation of the range object. but it didn't become a string 🙂

[flint jewel]

where should I dm you

[slow gust]

Oh okay.its hard for me to understand sorry 😅

[dusk adder]

it's considered a scripting language and a general purpose language
it can do web development about as well as any other general purpose language

[inland karma]

you should not,. #❓｜how-to-get-help

[slow gust]

Where did u ran it

[inland karma]

make a help channel

[flint jewel]

in python3

[slow gust]

Should I maybe learn Lua?

[bronze dragon]

in short, list comprehension is special syntax to create a list. just putting range(...) inside a list is not special syntax, because range itself is not special. you're just creating a range object and putting it inside the list.

[slow gust]

Is that on a website?

[inland karma]

you run python in your terminal

[flint jewel]

oh, so it becomes a string ?

[inland karma]

no

[bronze dragon]

it does not become a string

[dusk adder]

if you want
i learned it because one of my garry's mod mods had a lua scripting part so i just learned it for that

[slow gust]

What is a terminal 😅 😭 ?

[bronze dragon]

it is a range object

[pastel sluice]

@flint jewel if you say
[range(1,20,2)]
that isn't a comprehension. that's a list with one object in it, a range object.
a comprehension is when you use the comprehension syntax:
[x for x in range(1,20,2)]

[inland karma]

the program you use on your computer to run command line applications

[slow gust]

Wow was it hard? Or is it just fro roblox

[bronze dragon]

whose representation, upon being printed, looks like range(1, 20, 2)

[slow gust]

Yes I was asking this.What is the most used one for python?

[dusk adder]

it wasnt hard for me, lua is a relatively small and simple language
its power comes from how simple it is

[inland karma]

and i answered. was my answer unclear? python is the most used programming language in the world, it is used everywhere

[slow gust]

Ohh okay bro thank you I appreciate it! 🤩

[flint jewel]

so it doesn't become a string

[dusk adder]

i thought javascript was the most used

[flint jewel]

rather it just prints the representation

[slow gust]

No no my English is not very good sorry.i mean terminal what is the best one for python

[gleaming knoll]

there is no terminal that would be specifically for python
terminals are a general purpose thing for running any program

[inland karma]

if you open a help channel i can help you, this channel is to noisy for you to get yourself unblocked, and there are too many people answering at once

[flint jewel]

ok

[inland karma]

what platform are you on ?

[slow gust]

What is a platform? 💀

[flint jewel]

too many channels

[slow gust]

Oh okay tysm

[inland karma]

windows, mac, linux

[slow gust]

HP

[inland karma]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[raven urchin]

@flint jewel
Can you open a thread on #1035199133436354600 so we can discuss it without disrupting the chat? I want to help u too :3

[inland karma]

that is a brand name

do you use windows, mac or linux @slow gust ?

[slow gust]

Oh hp computer

[raven urchin]

They probably use Windows if they have an HP laptop and didn't know their OS.

[velvet trout]

😋

[inland karma]

that might be true

[gleaming knoll]

range is not a generator, but yes, [range(x)] is indeed a list with a single range object inside, not a list of the numbers in this range

[stray field]

range is range

[velvet trout]

huh

[inland karma]

range is a sequence

[velvet trout]

wait was i learning wrong my whole life

[inland karma]

its a sequence

[inland karma]

yes

[stray field]

!e print(type(range(0, 10, 2)))

[velvet trout]

😭

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

<class 'range'>

[slow gust]

Ohhh wait i understand windows 11

[velvet trout]

All that text wall was wrong...

[inland karma]

then windows terminal is what you want

[steady rain]

@velvet trout range is basically a lazy sequence, because it can just use math to get the nth element (or whatever operation you want to do), instead of storing them all in memory

[slow gust]

And what is that sir? 😅

[gleaming knoll]

not all of it, just the generator part

[inland karma]

the answer to the question you asked

[slow gust]

Which the best terminal for python is?

[slow gust]

Okay where can I find windows terminal sir?

[inland karma]

windows terminal please listen

[velvet trout]

Oh no its not

[inland karma]

you have it already

[stray field]

range uses __getitem__ iteration, right?

[velvet trout]

Its lazy right

[slow gust]

Sorry my English is quite bad

[velvet trout]

Or not

[steady rain]

I think so

[slow gust]

I mean where can I open it 😅

[inland karma]

no worries, our help channels are better for getting help

[raven urchin]

Nuh, Kitty best terminal ever

[flint jewel]

opened a thread in help

[inland karma]

you just open it, it comes with your computer

[bronze dragon]

it's an iterable but not an iterator

[slow gust]

Oh okay last question is this server official from python?

[velvet trout]

😢 i wanna die out of embarrassment

[velvet trout]

Oh right

[steady rain]

we aren't part of the python software foundation, but we're the most established Python server.

[velvet trout]

How can i write a text wall so confidentially incorrect?

[steady rain]

ChatGPT does it all the time.

[inland karma]

no, its not, its community driven, but we are on python.org community page

[slow gust]

Ohh okay Thank you so much! 😊 🤩

[velvet trout]

☠️

[bronze dragon]

we live and we learn 😄

[dusk adder]

to err is human
but to presume you're correct is also human 😔

[stray field]

class Iterable[T](Protocol):
  def __iter__(self) -> Iterator[T]: ... # returns a new iterator each call
class Iterator[T](Protocol):
  def __iter__(self) -> Iterator[T]: ... # return self
  def __next__(self) -> T: ... # raises StopIteration when empty

[gleaming knoll]

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/main/Objects/rangeobject.c#L822

[edgy kraken]

Objects/rangeobject.c line 822

range_iter,             /* tp_iter */```

[velvet trout]

Well learnt something new today, just like every other day

[steady rain]

@velvet trout don't worry about it. it makes sense why you'd think range is a generator.

[velvet trout]

hope that won't get me in trouble sometimes.

[velvet trout]

Thank you.

[slow gust]

Oh wow I have so many more questions like what that python org is but I dont want to take ur time Thank you so much for explaining i appreciate it!! 🤩 .Just last last question which is i heard that chatgpt is by python and u said u cant do mobile apps with python why is it so then?

[inland karma]

it feels like a generator because it produces a sequence of numbers

[wicked comet]

Generators have yield in them right?

[inland karma]

python.org is where you download python, and the website of python

[inland karma]

yes

[steady rain]

you can ask questions if you want. and people can decide if they feel like answering them. people usually do.

[slow gust]

Oh so u have ro download python 😭

[slow gust]

Tysmm 😍

[steady rain]

you can run short scripts on this server without downloading it

[inland karma]

yes, you have to do that to use python

[gleaming knoll]

by "chatgpt uses python" its meant that the models are trained with python
the website (or, atleast, the part that you run on your mobile phone), which calls into the already trained models on computers across the network, is not written in python

[steady rain]

!e

print('This is a short script')
a = 5 * 2
print(a)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | This is a short script
002 | 10

[wicked comet]

Not necessarily

[slow gust]

Ohhhh I understand thank you so much 😅

[steady rain]

all the LLMs are trained with python. can confirm.

[magic herald]

Hello, everyone. I am going to start learning python. Do you know any good free websties to strat off with or ytoyutube?

[steady rain]

!slorb

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[pastel sluice]

It's just easier to write a mobile app using one of the languages specifically for that job

[wicked comet]

Yeah they are programmed with python but trained on other stuff

[slow gust]

Okay tysm I'll try to download it and start my journey.One last thing would u even recommend python at all for career job and so on?

[slow gust]

Oh.like which?

[inland karma]

i have been working as a python developer professionally for over two decades

[steady rain]

guess it depends on what you think "to be trained with" means.
I would say they're trained with python on various text

[gleaming knoll]

kotlin for android, swift for iOS
dart (flutter) / js (react native) can be cross platform

[slow gust]

Wow.are there anythings you've created i can try out?

[stray field]

Swift can target android now

[inland karma]

once you have learned some python you can try it out

[slow gust]

Oh I heard of those.perfect thank you so much!!

[gleaming knoll]

does that "can" mean that people are actively using it

[slow gust]

No i mean your projekt

[stray field]

It's new

[slow gust]

Like the app 😅 you've created

[gleaming knoll]

is the code that people have been writing for iOS cross-platform compatible with the new android stuff?

[inland karma]

yes, once you know some python i can show you

[velvet trout]

Should i repost my text wall to Seraj with correction?

[stray field]

From the release notes:

Swift 6.3 includes the first official release of the Swift SDK for Android. With this SDK, you can start developing native Android programs in Swift, update your Swift packages to support building for Android, and use Swift Java and Swift Java JNI Core to integrate Swift code into existing Android applications written in Kotlin/Java. This is a significant milestone that opens new opportunities for cross-platform development in Swift.

[slow gust]

I just mean the name of the website or Game you've done 😭 .But its okay sorry for my English.And thank you for your time may u have a great day bro

[stray field]

docs: https://www.swift.org/documentation/articles/swift-sdk-for-android-getting-started.html

[gleaming knoll]

interesting

[frozen pasture]

Is there anyone looking for python dev?

[velvet trout]

De javu?

I think you asked this before too

[pastel sluice]

we aren't a job search or recruitment board

[quick needle]

Yeah

[tawdry galleon]

Hello!

[velvet trout]

Hello cat

Cats are so careless and happy. They don't have to worry about programming or naming conventions

[tawdry galleon]

How are you doing?

[velvet trout]

pretty embarassing

😔

[tawdry galleon]

Wdym

[tawdry galleon]

Haha fr

[velvet trout]

...

[tawdry galleon]

[velvet trout]

>>> range(5)[0]
0
>>> range(5)[1]
1
>>> range(5)[4]
4
>>> range(5)[5]
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<python-input-3>", line 1, in <module>
    range(5)[5]
    ~~~~~~~~^^^
IndexError: range object index out of range
>>>

what's the appropriate use case for subscripting range would be?

Why would someone need it to do that ?

[dry pike]

All sequences subscriptable

I don't think there is a case where you should genuinely do it tho

[velvet trout]

But why make it a Sequence?

like actual reason and usecase

Keeping it an Iterable was enough, was it not?

[dry pike]

well it used to be a list

it breaks less if it stays a sequence

[autumn forge]

I've done range(len(seq))[::-1] to iterate over the indices of a list in reverse, but it was in some #hacky code

[velvet trout]

Oh so backward compatibility!

[slender urchin]

It's pretty free to add the functionality

[velvet trout]

can we access start, stop, step from range(...) ?

[dry pike]

Yes

cannot modify tho

[velvet trout]

Oh we can ! :D

[velvet trout]

Read-only is enough

It has index and count too.

[dry pike]

having count is funny

[novel gust]

So guys I do understand why you were recommending Python as my first language instead of C

And I adhered to it.

BUT
My only mistake was to start with a ✨Introductory✨ course for Computer Science, which has some C in it.

And it's very first problem set has absolutely ragebaited me.
Why? Seems so simple, but God knows the solution.

And I think I need to conquer this C first before python.

Or I consider myself dumb.

[velvet trout]

What are they about?

[silver plover]

Are you asking a question? Or just venting?

[velvet trout]

So its similar to list.count/index()

[bronze dragon]

I guess you're talking about CS50?

[novel gust]

RIGHT

That Mario PSet

[novel gust]

Both arghh

[silver plover]

There's several, confusingly, CS50 courses. One is CS50p (for Python)

You picked the general one, which includes multiple languages

[velvet trout]

range(0,0,0)
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-24>", line 1, in <module>
range(0,0,0)

~~~~~^^^^^^^

ValueError: range() arg 3 must not be zero

Tho Would it still make sense to set step=0 since start and stop are zeroes too?

[velvet trout]

By any logic

[novel gust]

I thought it would be optimal given my entry into the niche

[slender urchin]

instead of range with 0 use repeat

[velvet trout]

right

[crisp jay]

coding in c++ is the worst thing someone could do

[novel gust]

Remove ++

[bronze dragon]

And I think I need to conquer this C first before python.
You don't need to. But, at this level the problems you have are likely with programmatic thinking in general, instead of being specific to C. Probably you would have struggled with solving this exercise in Python too -- depending on where you're stuck.

So switching languages may not help as much as you think...

[silver plover]

As long as you're learning, you're doing the right thing. There's no optimal path.

[velvet trout]

Inserts --

--C

[silver plover]

Cflat

[velvet trout]

C$

C# but american.

[novel gust]

I can't use loops freely

[fiery yarrow]

there is such a language as C-- fwiw

[velvet trout]

[silver plover]

That's just b++

[gleaming knoll]

its more of a compiler target than a language someone would write but yeah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C--

[autumn forge]

C♭

[novel gust]

lemme stick to it then

[velvet trout]

Why were they playing ABCD back when naming programming languages?

😂

[silver plover]

Programmers are very bad at naming. Look at yaml for instance

[novel gust]

commanding a computer

[surreal knot]

case in point APL = A programming language

[silver plover]

And yacc

[velvet trout]

What happened to yaml?

[novel gust]

computer is dumb

[velvet trout]

I barely used yaml

Toml supremacy

[silver plover]

Do you know what yaml stands for?

[charred tusk]

Yaint

[velvet trout]

Yet another markup language

Or Ain't a Markup Language

[gleaming knoll]

its also an "array programming language"
like imagine if numpy style stuff was first class

[bronze dragon]

there are a lot of "yet another" style names in tech

[velvet trout]

Or json if I can't

[surreal knot]

array processing language

[velvet trout]

[gleaming knoll]

lisp is list processing language

[fiery yarrow]

i have mild hostility to toml solely because of the connection to its namesake

[velvet trout]

Oh

[slender urchin]

You have beef with Tom?

[fiery yarrow]

i do

[charred tusk]

Thuri is biologically incapable of just being okay with LITERALLY ANYONE

[autumn forge]

you're just hating smh 🙄

[autumn pelican]

Except me

[velvet trout]

Tom's obvious markup language

[fiery yarrow]

i see toml as equivalent to muskl or bezosl, but not quite as bad

[gleaming knoll]

🥩 with Tom

[autumn pelican]

Thuri loves me

We're gonna get beers together one day

[fiery yarrow]

thuri is not buying your current charade, cert

[autumn pelican]

Bruh

I just ate like 5 servings of spaghetti

[velvet trout]

What happened to being certified cli lover?

[gleaming knoll]

april 1 happened

[velvet trout]

Lmao

[autumn pelican]

Thought I'd switch it up yk

To defeat your enemy you must first become them
--Sun tzu, the art of war

[velvet trout]

😭 no loyalty

[gleaming knoll]

to become your first you must defeat enemy
-- war, sun art of the tzu

[velvet trout]

[charred tusk]

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Preston-Werner

Shortest Wikipedia page I’ve ever seen
Thuri just a hater

Huh, this dude this founded Gravatar

[velvet trout]

The thread in python-help channel is closed after last message gets one hour old?

[charred tusk]

Yes

[velvet trout]

So its like:

• Incoming thread message:
• thread.messages.append(message)
• thread.reschedule_auto_close()

?

How discord servers do it

[flint jewel]

odd_numbers = [range(1,20,2),range(1,20)]
for value in odd_numbers:
print (*odd_numbers[value]) why is this wrong ?

[velvet trout]

Reschedule or queue reschedules

[grave tree]

it's our bot that enforces the close time

[velvet trout]

!source

[edgy kraken]

Bot's GitHub Repository

Repository

Go to GitHub

[velvet trout]

Gotta check and learn

[velvet trout]

Your for loop is essentially doing this:

odd_numbers[range(1, 20, 2)]
odd_numbers[range(1, 2)]

[flint jewel]

yeah I figured

[velvet trout]

you should just do print(*value)

[flint jewel]

I thought value is an iretator

[velvet trout]

Nope, value is the item of list

[flint jewel]

oh, cool

[runic flower]

* 0

[undone grove]

python drones

[dull dune]

lists are iterables

[undone grove]

you can fly them

[dull dune]

it is (or rather, it's a lazy sequence that is iterable)

[flint jewel]

yeah the iteration is inside the for loop it self

[dull dune]

I don't follow

odd_numbers is a list, which is Iterable

[lament terrace]

Wha 🤨

[dull dune]

value is a range object, with is also iterable

[undone grove]

you can use python to fly the drones

[flint jewel]

that what I meant

ok so why are those different numbers = [1,2,3,4,5,6] same_numbers = numbers my_own_copy = numbers[:]

and why does this only print two names players = ['sam','carl','demitery','samson','compenhagen','marteniz']\

print(*players[:2])

[runic flower]

one of those is a new list that is a copy of the old list, the other is a new reference to the same list

[flint jewel]

isn't the index start at 0

[runic flower]

yes, they made a mistake before.

[flint jewel]

so it's a mistake?

[runic flower]

wait which one? the odd even both starting at 1 was a mistake before.

[flint jewel]

it should start at zero

oh wait

[runic flower]

or do you mean this: print(*players[:2]) ? which prints players 0, and 1

[flint jewel]

so, when I do a slice like this number[0:2] it leaves the number at index 2?

[slender urchin]

It's up to 2, not up to and including

[flint jewel]

oh ok

[runic flower]

it'll start at 0 (as long as the increment is not negative) so 0 to 2, stops at 2, and does not include 2

[flint jewel]

oh makes perfect sense

[velvet trout]

🚁

[runic flower]

for slicing, [:2] => [0:2:1] => start at 0, increment by 1, until you reach 2, stop at 2, do not include it.

[flint jewel]

oh ok

[velvet trout]

😁

[runic flower]

range() behaves the same way.

[flint jewel]

yeah, thanks for clarification

[velvet trout]

Some things starts at zero, end is exclusive

Programming 101

[runic flower]

one of the cool things you can do here, is use a variable and you end up with the same.

x = [ 1,2,3 ... 97,98,99 ]  # note ... is not a thing here, I'm just abbreiating
y = x[:50] + x[50:]

x and y abre both 1-99

[flint jewel]

well in C I have to explicitly say if it's exclusive or not

[runic flower]

a lot of things in python are explicitly that way because c led to so many ambiguous errors.

[flint jewel]

yeah

it's not programming 101 lol

[velvet trout]

😔

[runic flower]

next up, using numpy. 🙂

[novel gust]

@bronze dragon Have you completed CS50?

[steel whale]

I got the openwrt one router and holy shit this is so buttery smooth

when using it in a client+ap config there's basically zero lag

[runic flower]

I'm out of the loop, do they have hardware now? I thought that was just software you could install on any some routers.

[steel whale]

data gets sent in the same millisecond

[steel whale]

yep they made their own router with 256MB of flash memory and 1GB of RAM iirc?

it has an nvme port which is really overkill but I like it

[runic flower]

nice. My nighthawk just went end of life for software support and I was considering installing my own, been a while (10 years?) since I thought about router software, had no idea they made their own now.

[steel whale]

check which openwrt version yours supports
my old TL-WA901ND supports 18.06.9 max and it only has RSA

no ed25519 on ssh auth

tho using the imagebuilder you could add ed25519 support, not sure

[chilly whale]

It'd be shocking for this not to be true for any router

1 millisecond is a very, very long time for a computer

[steel whale]

takes a few millis on my older router

lots of lag

[chilly whale]

Jesus.

[steel whale]

apparently because it has to switch some interface control thing? idk

[steel whale]

yeah ik

though in practice its not really noticeable

I watch Netflix on 4k just fine

[chilly whale]

That's more about bandwidth than latency

[runic flower]

I suppose if everything is lagged the same 1ms it's not really apparent?
Still seems weird.

[steel whale]

idrk

as long as using the internet on it is fine I'm happy

sad that my phone nor my PC can use WiFi 6

my laptop has no 5ghz support unfortunately

[runic flower]

Made sure my router had wifi6 support for wireless VR to my computer.

[solar axle]

i am trying to save an object as a json file. the object has list fields that hold other objects from a different class. how do i approach this? the objects that the list holds are added into the list from the class of that object.

sorry if that doesnt mkae sense

[chilly whale]

150ms is enough to get from New York to Australia and back. It's pretty shocking for it to take several ms for the data to leave your living room, haha

[runic flower]

if the fields can't be serialized than maybe you should not use json
(there are other options)

[runic flower]

so the next question is why json?

[solar axle]

what are some other options? i was doing this project to get familiar with saving data to json

[solar axle]

its the only other way of saving data that i know of beyond just using a text file LOL im just practicing with a project

[chilly whale]

JSON is a text format, so for every field in your object, you'd need to define how to represent that field in text

[stray field]

Implement json.JSONEncoder and pass the class to json.dumps(..., cls=...)`

[solar axle]

what does this do?

[runic flower]

ah cool. there are lots of ways. you could use json, but that would reauire making your classes be serializable to json, which is doable.
you could look into other ways, like pickle or shelve which are included in the python standard library

[stray field]

Its default method is called for non-jsonable types

[solar axle]

i think for the sake of the point of this project iw ould rather change my classes to fit what im doing, even if thats more work

[solar axle]

im sorry i dont quite understand what you mean by its defualt method

what method?

[runic flower]

read the docs on pickle and see if that works for your experiments.
https://docs.python.org/3/library/pickle.html

[solar axle]

thanks for the resouce!

[vital musk]

Hi, I’ve been interested in ai recently as it’s one of the biggest industry’s in the past few years and wanted to start learning python. So I’m curious, how hard is it to start to learn the basics and how long can I expect to spend until I get a good grasp on it?

[cerulean ravine]

keep pickle's flaws in mind: https://nedbatchelder.com/blog/202006/pickles_nine_flaws

[stray field]

class Encoder(json.JSONEncoder):
  def default(self, o):
    if stuff:
      return o.data
    return super().default() # raises an error

[civic tree]

If I have a JSON list of scraped listing of laptops, but the descriptions and titles were messy, how can I reliably extract specs, model name, CPU etc from the listing?

[runic flower]

np, it might be easier for you to play with pickle for now.
you could also consider using dataclasses which can encode and decode into json pretty easily.
lastly, when you get a bit more complex you could conside saving your data into sqlite3 which is not hard to use once you get there.

[solar axle]

so as i understand this, you are basically making your own custom encoder, that calls the "default" method. this method will return some attribute of your object?

but how does that help to serialize it and write into a json file?

[runic flower]

really depends on the data itself. you might have to parse the data, regex could be helpful there

[stray field]

Or call some function that returns some json primitive

[civic tree]

Can I DM u about it?

[jagged nacelle]

dataclasses are able to be serialized?

[runic flower]

best to just ask here, or create a thread in #1035199133436354600 so other people can help as well, as I'm not reliable I pop in and out and dispaense wisdom

[stray field]

Kind of. There's dataclasses.asdict

[solar axle]

so if i do that, where do i go from there? do i do that for each field in my object, and then write them one by one into the json file?

[jagged nacelle]

[stray field]

Each type you expect to process

[solar axle]

would this be difficult to read back and convert back into an object?

i can kind of see what youre saying but dont fully get it

[civic tree]

If the data is messy and inconsistent, then wouldn't regex entirely be a bad idea?

Won't I have to use some kind of LLM

[stray field]

I'd recommend using a proper serialization library for that. Like pydantic or marshall

[solar axle]

ah so what xelf was saying about using pickle basically

aka using something else

[runic flower]

You can use asdict to serialize and object hook to deserialize.
Quick example:

@dataclass
class Weapon:
    name: str
    damage_type: str
    damage_dice: int
    dice: int

weapon_json = '''
[
    {"name": "Rapier", "damage_type": "Piercing", "damage_dice": 2, "dice": 6},
    {"name": "LSword", "damage_type": "Slashing", "damage_dice": 1, "dice": 8}
]
'''

weapons = json.loads(weapon_json, object_hook=lambda r:Weapon(**r))

for w in weapons:
    print(w, json.dumps(asdict(w)))

[solar axle]

is the way ive designed my classes poor, or is this simply just a limitation of json

[stray field]

!pip dataclasses-json

[edgy kraken]

dataclasses-json v0.6.7

Easily serialize dataclasses to and from JSON.

Released on <t:1717950019:D>.

[runic flower]

beat me to it, I was just typing about that too. 🙂

[stray field]

I mentioned it earlier, but I used !d instead of !pip

[runic flower]

I was trying to keep it simple as they're just experimenting for now. But pydantic/marshall are great suggestions too.

[runic flower]

regex is fine, keep it simple. open a thread in #1035199133436354600 and post a few rows of data.

[runic flower]

was going to suggest pyarrow as well, but apparently they dropped serialization in favor of pickle. So I might be a few versions behind.

[stray field]

I had a problem so I tried using regexp. Now I have s/^[+-]?[0-9]+$/g problems.

[solar axle]

which library woudl you suggest for a beginner?

pickle marshall or pydantic or the dataclasses-json?

[cerulean ravine]

not marshal

[stray field]

Dataclasses-json if you already use dataclasses heavily

Pydantic has more advanced validation features, good for user input.

[runic flower]

for a beginner I would say learn about pickle first as it comes with python. see if that works for you.
if you want to stick with json, add a method to your classes that converts the data in it to a dictionary (or use a dataclass)

[solar axle]

if i go with the dataclass approach, is it easy to read back from the file?

im trying to find an approach that works both ways

[wise imp]

-000

[stray field]

Octal 0

[wise imp]

ahhhh, I see

[runic flower]

If you're not already using dataclasses, that's definitely a more fun area to experiment with

[civic tree]

https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/1491207808962658536

Would appreciate any/all help

[solar axle]

thanks fo rall your help guys im gonna do some research and then decide finally

[wraith shore]

good afternoon

[cerulean ravine]

hey, it's been quiet here. what's up?

[charred tusk]

Apparently a couple of my repos never had Dependabot security updates enabled and I have 50-something security alerts
RIP my "inbox 0" 😭

https://www.npmjs.com/ has a dark mode now

PyPI dark mode when??

It is kinda annoying that I have 16 "high" alerts just on this one repo alone, which is a ... static site hosted on GitHub Pages though
the alert fatigue is real

[wraith shore]

nothing and by you?

[flint jewel]

Anyone cares to explain what is a dictionary?

[pastel sluice]

it's a data structure where you can look things up by name rather than position

in a list, you locate items by their index position (a number). in a dictionary, you can use a number, a string, or a whole variety of other things

[crisp jay]

Hashmap

[steel whale]

thats not helpful

[flint jewel]

it is

[pastel sluice]

!e

d = {"x":1, "y":2, "z":3}
print (d["x"])

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

1

[flint jewel]

oh nice

I'll watch a youtube video then

[runic flower]

#1491207808962658536 message

[cerulean ravine]

did this message help? #python-discussion message

[flint jewel]

What message?

[cerulean ravine]

i just linked to it

[dry pike]

what link?

[runic flower]

you know about lists right? now imagine instead of them being indexed by numbers, you could index them by other things instead.
like lists, the indexes have to be unique, but unlike lists, they're not numerically ordered.

[flint jewel]

yeah

it's helpfull

[flint jewel]

oh ok

so it's basically a struct

[cerulean ravine]

there are big differences: it grows dynamically as you add things to it.

you don't have to know the keys ahead of time

[flint jewel]

oh, so they have their own methods?

[cerulean ravine]

all data in Python has their own methods, yes

[flint jewel]

great

[cerulean ravine]

have you tried the Python tutorial? https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/datastructures.html#dictionaries

[flint jewel]

I'll check it, thanks

[pallid garden]

#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval lol, pretty funny otn

[slow rivet]

Especially after moving to the forum channel

[red quartz]

Salut

[cerulean ravine]

what's up?

[dry pike]

Salad

[pallid garden]

every time i see an interesting bug i wonder to myself if claude would have been able to catch it

[signal whale]

Hi

[pallid garden]

turns out it's already AI-reviewed, which means I just caught a bug that it didn't, lol. and this contributor is known to use an LLM
ah there we go: Co-Authored-By: Claude Opus 4.6 <[e-mail]>

[stray field]

When the LLM requires more training

[mystic wagon]

._.

[civic tree]

How much do you know about LLMs?

[pallid garden]

not much, i would say

[civic tree]

Hmm

If you had to say https://discord.com/channels/267624335836053506/1491207808962658536
Can this problem be solved by an LLM or is it better to just use regex?

I'm debating on how I should move forward

[timid ember]

Hashmap

[frosty oriole]

might be a good usecase for an llm

[charred tusk]

Until it decides to sell all your Macs for $5

[frosty oriole]

you could probably also train your own model to extract specs from those descriptions

might be fun

[charred tusk]

Oh hey look pycryptodome in Pythonhelp
surely not malware
…right?

[shrewd pine]

use in what capacity? just generating the thing and slapping it onto your lap?

[charred tusk]

Woah
Don’t drop 26billionwithab parameters in your lap
They’ll crush you

[shrewd pine]

purely llm generated contributions with no relevant human in the loop is a rude thing to impose on a human maintainer

[civic tree]

What LLM model? The ones that I've used so far have not been consistent. Like qwen2.5:7b. The most consistent have been Gemini but I ran out of API calls for the free tier 🥲

Since this is just a hobby project I'd rather not spend money

[shrewd pine]

(now clearly the issue here is the human)

isn't qwen 2.5 pretty garbage at code?

[civic tree]

What do I train it with tho? What would be my training data? How would I gain that

[jagged jolt]

I also run an 7b LLM from olama for just hobby and created a chatbot but for honest its sucks no matter how much you give instructions

[civic tree]

True lol

And can't run anything more than that or my MacBook will self destruct

[shrewd pine]

https://clocks.brianmoore.com/

[jagged jolt]

i learn that day 🫠wanting same level of result as chatgpt or Gemini is really impossible with just a llm model in laptop, they have big servers for a reason tbh

[shrewd pine]

is this art? maybe it is art

[autumn pelican]

lmfao

[jagged jolt]

😂😂😂

[real leaf]

Hi

[shrewd pine]

it's an endless stream of amusement

[sullen dust]

Would ffmpeg be able to compress a 30GB video?

[silver plover]

Why wouldn't it?

[dry pike]

to what extent, unknown

[sullen dust]

Maybe that was a stupid question, How can i know what file size i can compress it to

[sullen dust]

Ah ok

[dry pike]

just try it

[silver plover]

That's a different question. Lossless or lossy? If lossy, quite a lot.

[muted rampart]

Asking a model to generate an SVG of something for you is the new Picasso arc

[shrewd pine]

html+css, it's even animated

[sullen dust]

Lossy, i wont need the full details. Most web services will make me pay for something this big but If there's no way to predict the final size i'll just edit the whole raw video

[shrewd pine]

You will have a lot of knobs you could tune wrt quality/formats/whatever

[silver plover]

There's a tradeoff. The more loss you accept, the worse the video looks.

So, the real question is; how much can I compress this video while still retaining good enough quality.

And, that depends on your video.

[vale wasp]

And your definition of "good enough video"

[rare gazelle]

there isn't any good automated tool for that btw

i worked on something, almost finished, but abandoned that for the time bbeing

(that uses ffmpeg)

[brisk gazelle]

Give me lossless compression or give me death.

[rare gazelle]

there is a way to predict the size

but again, all the tools are pretty bad in my opinion

(the ones i've used at least)

[granite wyvern]

You can predict the targt size by specifying the bitrate to fit the size of the video.

Here's the script I use to archive video from a camera running motion, as an example. It invokes ffmpeg.
https://github.com/cameron-simpson/css/blob/main/bin/motion-shrink-timelapse

Do some arithmetic to figure out the desired frame rate and bitrate.

[rare gazelle]

also one codec might provide you better quality with smaller size, compared to another

[granite wyvern]

That too. The bitrate * frames predicts the size, the codec will get you btter/worse video for the bitrate

[rare gazelle]

maybe i'll finish it one day, but i have other things in mind for the time being

[granite wyvern]

You can see the defaults I chose at the top of the script above: 200k, a desired video scale (scaled down from full HD 1920x1080), h265 for the video codec.

[vale wasp]

The amount of motion will also have an impact.

[granite wyvern]

True. But the encoder should try to achieve the requested bitrate regardess, possibly at the expense of video frame perceived quality.

And I belive you can get ffmpeg to make 2 passes.

[vale wasp]

Definitely. But It will give higher perceived quality for a relatively still person talking in front of a static background than it will for something with a lot of motion.

[rare gazelle]

i have a feeling that when i'll return to that project i've made about it, seeing the code will just disgust me

anyone else has this feeling of returning to an old project

[vale wasp]

Isn't that always the case?

[rare gazelle]

yea!

[vale wasp]

I'd like to think I'm a better engineer than I was a year ago.

[rare gazelle]

thats a positive way to look at it i guess

i look at it like i was shit a year ago

(and every year it repeats itself xD... as you've said i guess)

[vale wasp]

I doubt that. But you have more experience now and you would do things differently.

[rare gazelle]

yea definitely

i'll take what you said though, thats a sign of progress

[vale wasp]

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**In what ways has Python Discord helped you with Python?**

Suggest more topics here!

[dry pike]

dot topic

[vale wasp]

I learned about .topic 😉

[hot glen]

a = "asdf"
b = "jkl;"
print (a and b)``` just realized u cant use and with print only commas

[vale wasp]

I learned things I hadn't known. I've gotten better at explaining things and gauging people's levels.

[dry pike]

honestly bro, this sentence doesn't make sentence

[hot glen]

yea realized ths

vro

[granite wyvern]

You can use and, but it doesn't mean what you expected.

[hot glen]

then what?

[granite wyvern]

A comma works, if you want a space between the strings.

[rare gazelle]

try a + b

[hot glen]

ik that

[granite wyvern]

print wirtes each of its arguments converted to a string with a space between each

[hot glen]

ik that too

[rare gazelle]

whats the question then i dont understand

a and b is valid

[hot glen]

but and should print both

[silver plover]

Why don't you?

[rare gazelle]

nope

[granite wyvern]

a + b withh write the strings with no space between

[rare gazelle]

and doesn't mean that

[granite wyvern]

No, and is a boolean operation. It operates on the truthiness of the operands.

[hot glen]

oh

[rare gazelle]

every string that is not empty is truthy

[granite wyvern]

That's what I mean by "it doesn't mean what you expected"

[rare gazelle]

try:

a = ""
b = "hello"
print(a and b)

afterwards try:

a = "a"
b = "hello"
print(a and b)

[hot glen]

wont work

[vale wasp]

The phrasing implies that I don't... But I do but I'm trying to be humble about it.

[granite wyvern]

Well, it does something. "won't work" only has meaning in terms of the outcome you wanted. Which you never actually specified.

[silver plover]

I was just having language fun.

[granite wyvern]

If it makes you feel better, I like to think you're better also.

[vale wasp]

Fair enough. I know not everyone is a native English speaker and there's nuance in the way that that can read and the intent behind it.

[vale wasp]

With some thanks to you.

[rare gazelle]

i think that this feeling is between you and yourself mostly

[pallid garden]

it's crazy how no one found this obscure bug until now

[rare gazelle]

but maybe only i'm feeling it i dont know

[granite wyvern]

in thinking?

[rare gazelle]

i'd like to think i'm not the only one

[vale wasp]

What obscure bug did you stumble upon?

[vale wasp]

That's just wishful thinking.

[pallid garden]

apparently error notifications have been broken since like feb

[hot glen]

well if its a Boolean operator wont that mean both of them to be true as thats what and means and empty strings are false as far as ik

[rare gazelle]

what are your thoughts about it then

[vale wasp]

How is that obscure???

[pallid garden]

there were no errors to notify apparently

[granite wyvern]

Yes. Your initial example has two nonempty (truthy) strings. The result is the second string.

[pallid garden]

so no one reported it

[rare gazelle]

you said this yourself^

[vale wasp]

That's a critical failure.

[pallid garden]

it is

[rare gazelle]

well 🤷‍♂️

[hot glen]

got it thanks

[pallid garden]

it just so happens that there were no errors

[vale wasp]

There are no thoughts, only Zuul.

[rare gazelle]

its not just code btw

i dont know its just a feeling haha

[pallid garden]

    // redux-state-sync relies on BroadcastChannel, which only supports
    // objects that are clonable by `structuredClone`
    if (typeof action === 'function') {
      return false;
    }
```ah yes, of course, if the object is not a function, it cannot contain a function

[granite wyvern]

!e

for s1 in "", "abc":
  for s2 in "", "def":
    print(f'{s1=} {s2=} {s1 and s2=}')

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | s1='' s2='' s1 and s2=''
002 | s1='' s2='def' s1 and s2=''
003 | s1='abc' s2='' s1 and s2=''
004 | s1='abc' s2='def' s1 and s2='def'

[pallid garden]

truly a piece of code of all time

[vale wasp]

Why you bring cursed JS in here?

[rare gazelle]

yea burn it

[granite wyvern]

only righteous JS is accepted here.

[rare gazelle]

if there was any

[vale wasp]

I'm just worried it will infect the bots and spread like wildfire.

[swift sparrow]

Still working through some codewars?

[rare gazelle]

(very cool btw)

[granite wyvern]

I have become a huge fan of the {expr=} format syntax.

[rare gazelle]

yea i can see that

[vale wasp]

You know you can do {expr = } and the spaces are preserved, right?

[granite wyvern]

I use it a lot in exception messages too.

[vale wasp]

It rocks for logging.

[granite wyvern]

TIL. Though I tend to like compactness.

[rare gazelle]

like the spaces dont show up in the message you mean?

[granite wyvern]

!e

print(f'{3=}:{3 = }:')

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

3=3:3 = 3:

[rare gazelle]

oh, interesting

[spice hill]

:3

[hot glen]

yes

[granite wyvern]

Probably solves the spaces-around-= styling wish.

[hot glen]

ill go sleep

[rare gazelle]

good night astral, i think i'll go as well, good night everybbody, thank you for the conversation

[vale wasp]

g'night!

.topic

[verbal wedge]

**What standard library module is really underrated?**

Suggest more topics here!

[raven urchin]

CSV module

[vale wasp]

argparse.

[raven urchin]

I saw a whole video about making code pythonic with an example that read and wrote csv files, and the mf didn't even mention the csv module

[limber aurora]

Hello guys

[swift sparrow]

I've found myself using tempfile a bit recently

[vale wasp]

WTAF???

[raven urchin]

hello twin!

[raven urchin]

the video was amazing tho

[vale wasp]

Nice.

[limber aurora]

Hello how are you doing

[raven urchin]

pretty good hbu! watching the 4th season already?

[limber aurora]

What is the 4th season

[raven urchin]

Classroom of the elite

[granite wyvern]

getopt

[limber aurora]

Omg I am also planing on watching that too I want to wait till the season finishes before I start watching it

[white knot]

hey is the runtime stack same as the call stack

[vale wasp]

Maybe? But it's usually worth the effort to use argparse if only for the --help option.

[granite wyvern]

I have an atomic_filename(target_filename,....) context manager whose purpose is to podivde a NamedTemporaryFile to ... something , and to rename it to the target name if no exception occurs. It's great! The file's complete when it appears, and discarded cleanly if something goes wrong.

[vale wasp]

Nice. Care to share?

[white knot]

how does this call stack work. i see that there is activation records which are another stack.

[limber aurora]

Hello I am still new learning python so far I have learned list and variable and strings I am still learning and I hope to apply some of my knowledge in pharmacy

[swift sparrow]

Oh that's smart! I should absolutely do that for what I just used a temp file for

[vale wasp]

That's very cool. Let us know if you need help with things.

[granite wyvern]

Just grab it from my cs.fileutils package.

[swift sparrow]

I might just implement my own to learn 🙂

[limber aurora]

Ok bro ty

When I need help I will reach out

[vale wasp]

It's not cheating to look at others' implementations before doing your own.

[granite wyvern]

https://github.com/cameron-simpson/css/blob/d0086533a4c327557899b1b614351f41f42005f8/lib/python/cs/fileutils.py#L1597

You can pip install cs.fileutils

[edgy kraken]

lib/python/cs/fileutils.py line 1597

def atomic_filename(```

[swift sparrow]

I have a pyside GUI where you can drag a pixmap widget into an explorer window and it will create an image file, but it has to generate the image as a tempfile first in order to be able to relocate it when the drag finishes. This is a really nice way to clean up that file if the drag doesn't successfully complete

[granite wyvern]

Also avoids the race if making the file takes time.

[swift sparrow]

I'm pretty comfortable with path work so it shouldn't be too bad

[swift sparrow]

I haven't run into that yet fortunately. All the file creation stuff happens before the drag officially get executed, but I guess it could still happen

[white knot]

what is a calling sequence

[granite wyvern]

more context needed

usually it means some things which have to happen in a particular oder, or what have happened in some order

[granite wyvern]

I've got a video conversion script which wraps the long-running ffmpeg call in this context manager.

[swift sparrow]

also smart. I have an ffmpeg thing too but I just did the manual cleanup. A context wrapper sounds perfect

[white knot]

When designing calling sequences and the layout of activation record, the following
principles are helpful:

5. Value communicated between caller and callee generally placed at the caller
beginning of the callee’s activation record, so they as close as possible to
the caller’s activation record.
6. Fixed length items generally placed in the middle. Such items typically
include the control link, the access link, and the machine status field.
7. Items whose size may not be known early enough placed at the end of the
activation record.
8. We must locate the top of the stack pointer judiciously. A common approach
is to have it point to the end of fixed length fields in the activation is to have
it point to fix the end of fixed length fields in the activation record. Fixed
length data can then be accessed by fixed offsets, known to the intermediate
code generator, relative to the top of the stack pointer.```

am pretty confused

. Value communicated between caller and callee generally placed at the caller
beginning of the callee’s activation record, so they as close as possible to
the caller’s activation record.

[granite wyvern]

I work through a wrapper which does this for me.

[~/hg/css(hg:default)]fleet2*> fstags help -l tag
Recursive help with the -r option.
Usage: fstags [common-options...] [-o ontology] [-P] subcommand [...]
  Work with fstags.
  Common options:
    --dry-run         Dry run, aka no action.
    -e ssh-exe        An ssh-like command to use for remote command execution.
                      The string is a shell-like command string parsable by shlex.split.
    -n                No action, aka dry run.
    -O ontology-path  Ontology path.
    -P                Physical. Resolve pathnames through symlinks.
    -q                Quiet.
    -v                Verbose.
  Subcommand:
    tag [common-options...] {-|path} {tag[=value]|-tag}...
      Tag a path with multiple tags.
      With the form "-tag", remove that tag from the direct tags.
      A path named "-" indicates that paths should be read from the
      standard input.

[vale wasp]

TBH, I usually use a package that wraps argparse for typing reasons.

[granite wyvern]

Ah right.

[shrewd pine]

we're doing mercurial?

[granite wyvern]

This looks like the gnarly details of assembling a function call on the stack.

[vale wasp]

Wow... I didn't think would last long enough for me to finish typing.

[granite wyvern]

I do mercurial. I hate git.

[grave tree]

!clban 1485549162614358116 scam thing

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @severe turtle permanently.

[granite wyvern]

Ah, I was wondering.

[white knot]

the stack in which these activation record are palced one after anoter
is known as a call stack?

is that from where stacktrace in error comes

[chilly whale]

the specific way that one function passes control to another function

[granite wyvern]

Yes. A call stack stitches calls together so that you can return to the previous frame and so on.

The precise details vary from language to language an the implementation. A lot of concepts translate.

[shrewd pine]

||may I interest you in another vcs inspired in part by mercurial||

[granite wyvern]

you may

[white knot]

ah ok so they are just saying the general steps for the calling sequence. or the way in which activation record for callee is placed

[granite wyvern]

Are we talking jj?

[white knot]

1. The caller evaluates the actual parameters.
2. The caller stores a return address and the old value of top_sp into the callee’s
activation record. The caller then increments the top_sp to the respective
positions.
3. The callee-saves the register values and other status information.
4. The callee initializes its local data and begins execution.```

[shrewd pine]

maybe

[granite wyvern]

This is quite specific. It's a low level specification of how some language is making stack frames for a function call. Phrases like "saves the register values" are a nod to saving the runtime state of the calling function so that the called function is free to do ... whatever. Then on return you restore the state and keep going.

[white knot]

okk👍

[chilly whale]

that's sort of generalities. The specifics are going to be in the platform's ABI

[granite wyvern]

So the code implementing the call (i.e. the code in the caller) sets all this stuff up on the call stack and then hands control to the called function, which in turn gets things like parameters from what was just put on the call stack and does its thing.

[vale wasp]

The concept is the same but the implementation details can differ.

[chilly whale]

things like which registers get saved is specific to the ABI

[shrewd pine]

I'm so tempted to make a git emacs joke

[vale wasp]

And not relevant for Python since the Python call stack is actually in the heap and other fun things like that.

[granite wyvern]

On V7 UNIX on a PDP-11 the OS only ever worked in the primary register set. You could put messages in the secondary/alternate set and they'd survive for others to read.

[shrewd pine]

git is a good versioned file system only lacking a good vcs

[crisp jay]

Who is this?

[chilly whale]

and on any platform there's some registers which the callee is allowed to trash and no one restores. It'd be wasteful to copy everything on every function call, so for the sake of performance there's some calling convention which specifies which things you can rely on remaining "unchanged" (or really, changed back) after a function call vs which things are gone forever

[pallid garden]

i dont understand how github decides what to display as a code snippet and what to leave as a link

[granite wyvern]

In a diff? I thought it was mostly diff length.

[chilly whale]

I believe any URL for a range of lines with a branch/commit/tag gets turned into a code snippet unless it's too long

[shrewd pine]

probably also some heuristics to detect binary files

[vale wasp]

I think she's talking about pasting the URL here.

[pallid garden]

not a diff, just a link to the code, like github.com/bla/bla/blob/master/actions.ts#L41-L44

(ah yes, not python, sorry)

[granite wyvern]

I make those with the lenu attached to a line number. ISTR that you can shift-click a later like to get a range.

[pallid garden]

does it have to be the same repo?

[chilly whale]

no, definitely not

[pallid garden]

hmm

[granite wyvern]

Still feel like I'm missing context.

[shrewd pine]

i dont understand how github decides what to display as a code snippet and what to leave as a link
display where?

[pallid garden]

actually i shall move my non-python discussion to ot0

[white knot]

btw this stack is not related to the stack maintained by the cpu right?
i see that the storage organization and allocation is done by OS

static/heap/stack areas

[chilly whale]

this is the stack maintained by the CPU

the top_sp that you're reading about is the CPU's stack-pointer ("sp") register

the stack pointer to the (old) top of the stack

[white knot]

oh so the stack area in OS also has a stack which maps to this one maintained by the cpu? i mean when i execute my program it can't directly manage this CPU stack i thought

[chilly whale]

no, it can and does

the OS allocates some memory to use as the stack, and tells the CPU where the start of that stack is. The CPU's SP register points to the top of that stack. When a new function is called, the calling convention causes a new activation record (a new frame, we can say) to be pushed onto that stack, by writing into the memory that the stack pointer is pointing to, and then advancing the stack pointer to point to the (new) end of the stack

[lament terrace]

Don't you hate it when you coded stuff but yet you don't know what to do with them ...

dmenu and notify-send wrapper functions

Very nifty functions that idk what to do with that I made 😂

[white knot]

suppose i have a compiled program where i define and call a function that am executing it. the process will be given memory.the machine code of the executing program will be having instructions to push or pop from the CPU stack

the stack area is maintained by OS just to make sure that all processes can access that CPU stack. by saving the state?

[chilly whale]

"all processes" - now you're getting into a different concept, virtual memory versus physical memory

each running process will have its stack in a different place, and when the OS switches a thread from running one process to another it tells the CPU where the current process's stack is. That's part of what a context switch is

[solemn venture]

what's the difference and why do you prefer it?

[chilly whale]

you seem to think that there's some stack "in" the CPU. There's not. The CPU has a stack pointer register, which points to a stack in RAM

[white knot]

yes i think i misunderstood it, when i heard about stack based systems. its clear now there is only one SP managed by the cpu and each process can have stack in memory

[chilly whale]

and at any given time, there's no guarantee that a process's stack is in memory at all. It might be paged out (or part of it might be), and so stored on disk instead of in RAM. Then you're getting into "page tables", and need to know about the "TLB"

[white knot]

yeah got it, thanks

[viscid slate]

Bro did anyone ever make a game or something else

[swift sparrow]

Plenty people have made games. Did you have a more specific question?

[viscid slate]

I want to learn coding but no one help me 😭

[velvet trout]

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[swift sparrow]

What resources have you tried learning from so far?

[viscid slate]

😩

[viscid slate]

Resources? I don't even studied it

I just want to make a game

[swift sparrow]

Everyone has to start somewhere. Have a look at the resources linked above. I really recommend cs50p

[viscid slate]

[swift sparrow]

No matter what your goal is, everyone has to start from the basics

[narrow tiger]

there are also some great pygame tutorials on youtube once you finish with the basics and cs50p 🙂

[viscid slate]

Bro can u tell me how to learn it !! From yt or something tutorial

[viscid slate]

Cs50p?

[swift sparrow]

I just did. Take a look at the links above

!learn

[edgy kraken]

Go-to beginner resources

Here are the top free resources we recommend for people who are new to programming:

• Automate the Boring Stuff — an online book (also available to purchase as a physical book)
• Harvard’s CS50P course — video lectures (slides and notes provided) with exercises
• Python Programming MOOC 2026 course — text-based lessons with exercises
• Corey Schafer's YouTube playlist

For a full, curated list of educational resources we recommend, please see our resources page!

[swift sparrow]

these ones

[viscid slate]

Oh vid lectures

[viscid slate]

Oh thnx bro

[shrewd pine]

and I think a few people also did something else too

[viscid slate]

@swift sparrow

[swift sparrow]

Yes?

[viscid slate]

Thnx

[swift sparrow]

If you want to thank me, send me the first game you make 🙂

[velvet trout]

Its like you want to make a rocket without studying physics first?

[viscid slate]

I never made a game

[swift sparrow]

Most people haven't made a game before they make their first game

[viscid slate]

[jade robin]

(all)

[viscid slate]

Ok I will

[swift sparrow]

Just be aware that making games is much harder than playing games

[jade robin]

LOL

[swift sparrow]

Yeah but that's less funny

[viscid slate]

But where I will try to coding

[swift sparrow]

Many of these questions will be answered when you start working through one of the resources

Believe it or not, it will teach you how to write and run your code

[viscid slate]

Ok

[viscid slate]

Ok thanks for the help

Love u bro

[chilly whale]

also - I'm not sure if this will make it more or less confusing for you, but it might be a useful way to think about things: from the point of view of the CPU, "processes" don't exist. The CPU starts off running the kernel, and then sometimes the kernel jumps into code that it has loaded from somewhere else, and then that code jumps back into the kernel (either due to a timer interrupt or due to a software interrupt like a syscall) at which point the kernel might jump to different code somewhere else instead. Processes are an abstraction that doesn't really exist to the CPU

[shrewd pine]

processes are a social construct

or well, computational abstraction

[chilly whale]

yeah. The CPU more or less sees everything running on the computer as just one big continuous program that jumps around a lot, rather than as a bunch of separate processes

[rapid rose]

hi

does any1 know how i could make a macro that reads the screen?

[kind bolt]

Is there a certain keyboard size I should opt for if I plan on doing a little bit of programming

[robust ledge]

Which ever size you are comfortable with already it the best one to use.

[dry pike]

make sure you have Home, End and Insert

[kind bolt]

Okay thanks

[dry pike]

probably a tenkeyless is good. Comfortable size for most people, and you still have all keys that might be needed (numpad only useful for data entry which you don't really do much in programming)

[deep zenith]

Can open source be a career ?

[kind bolt]

Thanks im building my first setup and forgot abt it

[fiery yarrow]

i have not used the number bar to type actual numbers in years

[chilly whale]

technically, yes, though it's not very likely in practicality

[white knot]

ok understood, i think i did study some of this, from what i understand is that OS kernel is loaded from the ROM chip. and the kernel begin executing.
the fork of new processes are interrupts which act like making a jump and returning?

[pallid garden]

find a keyboard that will motivate you to start typing

[deep zenith]

True

I recently changed my keyboard to a old one it feels new

[chilly whale]

the kernel will read a program into RAM and jump to it to start executing that program. That program will jump back to the kernel either when its time slice ends or when it makes a syscall.

the kernel will eventually jump back to that program to let it pick up where it left off, but in the meantime it might jump to some other program instead

[fiery yarrow]

right, so this may not be entirely correct (i'm honestly not sure, and hex values may be strong exceptions?). but the numpad is not "only useful for data entry"

[chilly whale]

it's mostly useful for games 😄

[deep zenith]

Ohh

[deep zenith]

Kernel level thread and user level thread

When I heard that you can actually control and create threads in to the Computer System through C I was blown away

[chilly whale]

Python lets you create threads too

[deep zenith]

🫨

[white knot]

alright, the context switching behavior we see in cpus are due to the sys calls and interrupts and scheduling of processes by the kernel program

everything is made into its procedure and we jump and return

[deep zenith]

Can I create a plushy through these threads

[granite wyvern]

I find the git command line infuriating.

[harsh anchor]

just use jj

[bronze dragon]

Depends on what you're envisioning

[full crane]

Hi all

[quartz fulcrum]

hello

[knotty escarp]

heyy

[torpid sparrow]

if i containerize my python application, how do i keep it safe?

is containerizing it by itself already being safer?

[inland karma]

good morning

safe from what?

[torpid sparrow]

It's 1 AM here but sure good morning

Safe from vulnerabilities

things I import or do incorrectly in the code

[inland karma]

its always morning somewhere!

[torpid sparrow]

lol

[inland karma]

that has nothing to do with containers, you update your code if there are any vulnerabilities

you can have your code scanned for them

[torpid sparrow]

if i containerize my code, with a latest docker hardened base image, I can use a scanner?

[bronze dragon]

containerizing your app only isolates it from the host system, it doesn't neutralize vulnerabilities in your app (or its dependencies) itself

[torpid sparrow]

right.. so containerization just makes it easy to run my code on different machines, it doesn't make anything safer

[inland karma]

you have to disconnect the two things, you scan the code

[inland karma]

yes, it makes running the code the same on both machines

[torpid sparrow]

I'm sure I can scan before and after. I just felt like a "container" makes things safe like an egg carton protects the eggs

[inland karma]

an egg carton does not protect eggs when you drop a house on top of them, just makes it simpler to move them aroundd

[torpid sparrow]

jeez, I can't fathom dropping a house on eggs

ok moving them around and running the code from the containers is easier, "IT WORKS ON MY MACHINE" problem gets fixed

[inland karma]

so you can use dependabot on github, or any of the similar services for scanning code

[torpid sparrow]

im scared of third party scanners

sometimes they have viruses themselves

[inland karma]

what on earth are you talking about?

[fiery yarrow]

dependabot getting infected would scare the tail right off of shen methinks

[torpid sparrow]

like antiviruses

antivirus scanners are malicious sometimes if you get a bad one

[inland karma]

what?

please dont invent things

if you dont know something it is ok to say you dont know it

[bronze dragon]

code dependency scanners are conceptually pretty different from, like, Windows antiviruses

[torpid sparrow]

ok, i trust society and scanners

nevermind don't listen to me

[undone grove]

can i post my error

[inland karma]

yes you can

[undone grove]

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/mnt/c/Users/11/python/14.py", line 19, in <module>
class SystemMonitor:
File "/mnt/c/Users/11/python/14.py", line 22, in SystemMonitor
self.cpu = 0
^^^^
NameError: name 'self' is not defined

[torpid sparrow]

That's an easy one

[inland karma]

you did not add self to your method as the first parameter

[undone grove]

I am a beginner

[inland karma]

share the code

[torpid sparrow]

No it's not a bad question just easy for people that know object oriented programming

[fiery yarrow]

iirc, dependabot and most other scanners require you to approve any changes they think up

[torpid sparrow]

Great question, self was definitely confusing the first time I used it, you need an instance

[undone grove]

import psutil
import threading
import time
import os
from datetime import datetime

Terminal colors

class Color:
RESET = "\033[0m"
CYAN = "\033[96m"
GREEN = "\033[92m"
YELLOW = "\033[93m"
RED = "\033[91m"

def clear():
os.system("cls" if os.name == "nt" else "clear")

class SystemMonitor:
def init(self):
self.running = True
self.cpu = 0
self.ram = 0
self.disk = 0
self.net_sent = 0
self.net_recv = 0

[edgy kraken]

Hey @undone grove!

Please edit your message to use a code block

```py
print('Hello, world!')
```

This will result in the following:

print('Hello, world!')```

[inland karma]

your code is not indented

[torpid sparrow]

yes eivl is right

[undone grove]

that's all?

[inland karma]

you have to add indentation so they line up with the __init__ method

[undone grove]

okay you just fixed the whole thing for me thanks

[inland karma]

yes, your using self but you dont have that code inside a method

[pallid garden]

-# another reason why python is a great language for beginners: enforces good formatting practices

[inland karma]

you should use four spaces for every indent as well

[fiery yarrow]

but not so good for code sharing 😔

[undone grove]

I don't even know how to change my tab setting (using notepad) so I always copy paste 4 spaces and use ctrl V

[pallid garden]

please dont use notepad for code

[fiery yarrow]

do you mean notepad or notepad++

[inland karma]

use a code editor

[undone grove]

😭 hard to understand the programs

[pallid garden]

i would be lying if i say they are intuitive for beginners

[undone grove]

I have Vscode but I didn't figure out how to open all the menus

of course I will transition to that in the future

[torpid sparrow]

I use pycharm

pycharm is nice for python.

[undone grove]

at least notepad is just a white background that I can understand

[inland karma]

oh i see, you can ask us for help with that. vscode uses a command window like ctrl shift p

[pallid garden]

you should open a help thread if you are looking for help to guide you through the interface

[inland karma]

you should try a beginner friendly editor instead

thonny is made for beginners

[digital maple]

VS Code my beloved

[jade robin]

try staring and simply clicking things for a few hours

i don't believe vscode ui won't be intuitive for a beginner, i think the menus scare people

[fiery yarrow]

does w11 notepad have syntax highlighting? i think it does?

[pallid garden]

i dont think so?

[undone grove]

I'll try that if it's specially made for my case

[inland karma]

it even has markdown live rendered! 😄

[fiery yarrow]

i know there's something they significantly improved

[jade robin]

i switched out before i witnessed the glorius notepad updates

[sacred cypress]

to be honest you can ignore most things, you can just use editor, terminal, see file structure, thats about all you need at the start

[pallid garden]

shareholder sentiments?

[jade robin]

that reminds me, i can recommend IDLE tho

[inland karma]

it is excplicitly made for you, and you can look into other editors when you have learned python 😄

[fiery yarrow]

actual improvements

[jade robin]

IDLE is basically notepad but with basic python stuff

should be decent for learning

[pallid garden]

they made it so bad it pushes people to use real code editors

[fiery yarrow]

maybe i was thinking of tabbed window support? ¯_(ツ)_/¯
-# also dark mode

[torpid sparrow]

if i tell ai, make my code safer, is that trustworthy?

I DONT UNDERSTAND THE SECURITY

[inland karma]

good question, the answer is supprising

[torpid sparrow]

the ai is based on a network call that tells everyone on the internet my source code

so then it shows everyone my vulnerabilities

[inland karma]

i think you are missunderstanding something

what is your question and what is the problem you want to solve?

[half pewter]

Buongiorno

[brisk gazelle]

Security through obscurity is not security at all.

[pallid garden]

secure code is secure even when you show it to literally anybody

[surreal knot]

how would you verify that it's actually safer ?

[half pewter]

if you vibecode without understanding the code it is not "trustworthy", AI is trained on normal security models just like everything else but implimentation is your job

[patent python]

👋

[royal verge]

@young path i see you made new changes to the code , so error handling , thats awesome

[blazing badge]

any book recommendation for extremely hyper ultra super advanced python coders

[inland karma]

are you super advanced?

[blazing badge]

I think of myself as, yea

[quartz fulcrum]

take a test eivl

[inland karma]

what makes someone super advanced?

because if recommend something for an intermediate devloper, that would not fit i think

[tame vapor]

super().__advanced__()

[inland karma]

i dont have a test 😄

[jade robin]

no but "fluent python" is good for dumb beginners intermediates imo

[inland karma]

yes its very good, thats the one i had in mind

Fluent python is when you are on the brink of becoming intermediate

[karmic sage]

I have a question
idk if this is vague.
my question is how much similarity should be there between development and the production environment for application written in python ?

[pallid garden]

?

[inland karma]

close to identical is nice

[quartz fulcrum]

i downloaded the epub version of python by mark lutz.
qnd it has more than 3500 pages if one is seeing on mobile

[pallid garden]

surely you want to make your dev environment as close as possible

[fiery yarrow]

prod ain't gonna need stuff like linters and testers and such.
most everything else is proably the same

[karmic sage]

got it 👍🏻 , i have os level abstraction. but the hardware level i dont have it.

[tame vapor]

what does that mean

[jade robin]

hardware level abstraction? doesn't seem trivial, nor does it seem standard

[inland karma]

i run things in docker to keeep things the same. and i have dev tools like formatters and linters that i dont have in prod. the rest is the same

[tame vapor]

what even is a hardware level abstraction when writing a python program ?

[jade robin]

maybe using an emulator for some reason

idk micropython peeps probably have more knowledge of it

[tame vapor]

ngl i didnt understand a thing yall talked about

[blazing badge]

interacting with the kernel, leveraging artificial intelligence, manipulating own memory space, utilizing decentralized infrastructure

[jade robin]

testing things out in containers (sometimes even VMs) for prod deployment is standard. testing things out by running a hardware emulator probably has very niche usecases, especially for python

[inland karma]

i see...thats not the things i would put in advanced. but iim not a gatekeeper of words. you should really look into the book suggestion we talked about Fluent Python just make sure to get the second edition

[karmic sage]

i have things running on ec2 vs local. the storage allocated is very less on ec2, so when too much cache is collected over time its breaks. so having resource allocation ig is important too. well ofc cpu architerture doesn't matter. maybe in some cases ?

[pallid garden]

why did the LLM take so long to generate that sentence...?

[tame vapor]

yeah i understand this 👍

[tame vapor]

maybe chatgpt logged him out and he had to log back in but he forgot his password so he was resetting it

[pallid garden]

oh you are caching in storage?

i would think it's better to cache in a db, or some other caching service

[karmic sage]

browser related cache. running a web agent

[blazing badge]

I realized early on that standard polymorphism just encrypting the payload was a dead end against modern static analysis. So, I built the Metamorphic Core

[pallid garden]

you did say "the storage allocated is very little on ec2"

[karmic sage]

and logs are pain its on ec2 rn. need to move into db

[jade robin]

huh

[blazing badge]

I used Python’s ast module to force the program to read and completely restructure its own abstract syntax tree in real-time

[karmic sage]

the overall /dev/root is 8 GB and thing get full pretty much when cache is not cleared.

[pallid garden]

yea, why is this related to your browser's cache?

[blazing badge]

It dynamically swaps for loops for while loops, renames variables algorithmically, and recompiles itself strictly in memory using compile() and exec()

[inland karma]

you are aware that this is not a competition? using an ast is a fine hobby for intermediate users

[tame vapor]

hes trolling bro 😂

[shrewd plinth]

I program by flipping bits manually

[jade robin]

insert the xkcd

[inland karma]

ooh i see.... i thought it was him trying to prove advanced usage with toy examples

[shrewd plinth]

With tweezers

[pallid garden]

.xkcd 378

[verbal wedge]

XKCD comic #378

Real programmers set the universal constants at the start such that the universe evolves to contain the disk with the data they want.

2008/2/1 - #378, 'Real Programmers'

[tame vapor]

i program by forcing my computer to do things by emitting electromagnetic waves from my brain

[jade robin]

bro has it memorized

[pallid garden]

-# nope i had to search it up

[blazing badge]

I engineered a program, its a self-evolving predator that rewrites its own AST logic and uses Reinforcement Learning to play EDR evasion like a game. By invoking raw syscalls through ctypes and pulling steganographic commands from the blockchain, it operates as a fragmented memory-only ghost that never touches the disk

[tame vapor]

slap AI on it and sell it to sam altman

[blazing badge]

Ai is not a real thing

[inland karma]

please stop it

[void sphinx]

hi

[mint quest]

sounds like AI "hacker" slop

[lone sand]

Hello everyone