python-discussion

[bleak moth]

operations = {
  "add" : lambda a, b: a + b,
  "sub" : lambda a, b: a - b,
  "mul" : lambda a, b: a * b,
  "div" : lambda a, b: a / b
}

[steady rain]

the getitem syntax for lists and dicts are the same.

[cobalt flax]

k so .get seems redundant kinda

[dry pike]

it's not

[cobalt flax]

expound

[dry pike]

it's used when you don't want to error if the key does not exist

[steady rain]

there's an important difference: if you try to get a key that isn't there, you get None, instead of causing an error

[cobalt flax]

ahahaahhhhh

[cosmic moat]

Quick question I'm not sure how to Google... How can I exclude the first item in a list when using a function such as max?

[dry pike]

you can also specify a different default than None with a second argument to the method

[charred python]

ChainMap is the thing I was thinging of. Looks up values from 2 or more dicts.

from collections import ChainMap

users_by_id = dict((user.id, user) for user in users)
users_by_email = dict((user.email, user) for user in users)

user_lookup = ChainMap(users_by_id, users_by_email)

print(user_lookup[123]) # by id
print(user_lookup["[e-mail]"]) # by email

[dry pike]

with slicing

xs[1:]

[cobalt flax]

oh interesting

[cosmic moat]

Thank you!

[steady rain]

but you should only use dict.get if you have a plan for what you'd do if you get the default value. if a missing key means that the program is actually wrong, you should just let yourself get the key error.

[cobalt flax]

also i think i see whats going on

what does lambda mean though

kinda weird name

[steady rain]

it lets you have a function as an expression.

[dry pike]

you don't use () in lambdas

[bleak moth]

Lambda means "this is a thing to calculate every time it's used."

[dry pike]

in fact it's a syntax error

>>> lambda (a, b): a + b
  File "<python-input-0>", line 1
    lambda (a, b): a + b
           ^^^^^^
SyntaxError: Lambda expression parameters cannot be parenthesized

[bleak moth]

I hardly ever use lambdas to be honest

[dry pike]

what? no

[tame hinge]

Very nice. I'm going to have to look more into that

[cobalt flax]

so is lambda for functions or can you use it for other thingamabobs aswell?

[dry pike]

it's a greek letter, and also from "lambda calculus"

it's only for defining functions as expressions in Python

[cobalt flax]

ok

[bleak moth]

Any place that you want an expression as a function

[cobalt flax]

so defining functions as expressions

[dry pike]

because def is a statement

[tame hinge]

stuff like this is why I strongly feel python has the best standard library

[bleak moth]

So basically, if it expects a function, and you only need it to evaluate an expression, you can prefix the expression with lambda, and a capture group (the parameters to that function) and what expression you want it to do with those parameters

[dry pike]

never heard "capture group" in the context of functions

I know that capture group is a concept from regex

[bleak moth]

I mean, you keep saying use functions as expressions and it's more accurately the inverse. Where a function object is expected, you can use a lambda to just use an expression instead of creating a function and then putting the name of the function without parentheses or parameters in its place.

[cobalt flax]

so can i do something like ```py
arbitraryOperations = lambda a, b, c: a * b + c

print(arbitraryOperations(5, 3, 1))

` output == 16`

?

[dry pike]

no

[dry pike]

you could do that, but it's considered bad style

[cobalt flax]

oh that kinda sucks

[bleak moth]

C++ describes it that way. I've also seen it in other "lambda/closure" contexts described in those words

[dry pike]

well, this isn't C++

[tall vector]

and closures != lambdas

[cobalt flax]

seems efficient though if I have a bunch of values I get that I wanna put together in specific ways every time

[bleak moth]

Words are words. As long as they convey the idea, they work

[cobalt flax]

this seems awesome actually

[bleak moth]

I noticed, but the idea is the same even if you're using a closure

[dry pike]

I don't agree. Using the correct words for the domain is important.

[cobalt flax]

ohhhhhh this is interesting so using .get() also acts as a bool sometimes

like if i did

[dry pike]

there is no "capturing" going on with the parameters of a lambda

it doesn't make sense in Python

[dry pike]

wdym by "acts as a bool"?

[cobalt flax]

if codeWordsForChristmasMission.get("THE RED CLAW"):
  print("he's here")
else:
  print("WHERE IS SANTA")

[dry pike]

None is falsy

[cobalt flax]

since "THE RED CLAW" is a key in my dictionary

[steel whale]

is there something like conhost but on linux?

[dry pike]

you will also run the else if the value associated with that key is falsy, such as empty string, list, 0, etc

[cobalt flax]

i dont have to do codeWordsForChristmasMission.get("THE RED CLAW") != None

which is cool

cuz like if it returns anything thats acting as "True"

[dry pike]

if "THE RED CLAW" in codeWordsForChristmasMission:
  print("he's here")
else:
  print("WHERE IS SANTA")

this is "more correct"

[spice hill]

Maybe I should expand this to lambdas, not sure how this would work https://github.com/decorator-factory/py2-nostalgia

@nostalgia
def print_point(label: "(", x, y: ")"):
    print(f"({x},{y}); label={label}")

print_point("origin", (420, 69))

[tall vector]

what if it returns an empty string? or the number 0? these act as False (are falsy in python lingo, but are entirtely valid pieces of data to be passing around. for this is doesn't seem to matter, but it's worth thinking about

[cobalt flax]

hm rad

[visual juniper]

thats how they make you do import typing

[cobalt flax]

seems more readable

[spice hill]

ns(lambda label, _L0, x, y, _R0: f"({x},{y}); label={label}")

[cobalt flax]

dont say "more correct" that makes me feel wrong

and i aint wrong im just flawed

[charred python]

Yes. But just to clarify, get() isn't acting as a boolean. The value it returns is evaluated by an if which does the value -> boolean conversion.

[cobalt flax]

alright yeah checks out

[indigo veldt]

hello

[dry pike]

this mindset is flawed

[cobalt flax]

yeah im flawed see you're getting it

[dry pike]

can you stop please

[robust ledge]

It's fun that three different if statements have been shown with three different logical outcomes. The "correct" is the one that does what is expected. Nothing more than that.

[cobalt flax]

right sorry for pulling your leg

why is it flawed exactly?

[dry pike]

because you are relying on the value associated with that key to check if the key exists, when using .get() like that

[cobalt flax]

ah yeah i guess that'd be less efficient than just checking if the key is there in the first place

cutting the middle man

[dry pike]

it's not about efficiency, they have different outcomes

[cobalt flax]

expound

[dry pike]

I have already

[visual juniper]

there are "possible" ways then there are "good" ways like codeWordsForChristmasMission.get("THE RED CLAW") != None this will get the job done but isnt pythonic

[cobalt flax]

wait ok im getting lost here
if checking if a key in a list returns anything

vs

[dry pike]

d = {"a": 0}

if d.get("a"):
    print(1)
if "a" in d:
    print(2)

2

[cobalt flax]

if checking if a key in a list is there at all

[rugged barn]

Good timezone

[cobalt flax]

thanks i take pride in living in the right place

[rugged barn]

Do you now

[visual juniper]

.get will try to find a value for that key in a dictionary , if a value is found , it will return the value , if not , it will return None
whereas in just checks if the key is present in the dictionary at all , it doesnt care about the value of that key

[cobalt flax]

im confused, why is 1 not printing?

a is there!!!

[bronze dragon]

0 is Falsy.

[cobalt flax]

a is still with us!!!

[dry pike]

because d.get("a") return the value associated with "a"

which is 0, which is falsy

[cobalt flax]

falsy?

thats different from false?

[dry pike]

treated as false in boolean contexts

[visual juniper]

no , just another way of saying "false like value"

[cobalt flax]

thought you were being playful but yeah feels proper to make that distinction

[cobalt flax]

Ahah

now that is interesting

[cobalt flax]

THATS WHY YOU SAID THIS EARLIER ALEC!!

[dry pike]

vals = ["", [], {}, (), 0, 0.0]
for val in vals;
    print(bool(val))

False
False
False
False
False
False

[cobalt flax]

Thought it would still return true to be honest

[dry pike]

I gotta go now

[cobalt flax]

good to know these falsys

[cobalt flax]

thank you very much for the help!

[dry pike]

and then there is truthy

"abc", [1, 2, 3], 1, -1, 4 etc

[cobalt flax]

oh well yeah

[dry pike]

bye

[quartz fulcrum]

i read about truthy and falsy..but i forgot

[cobalt flax]

bye!

[oblique spindle]

also None is falsy but something is false and something is None are very different

[cosmic moat]

Excuse me, it's me again. It says the name of my list of lists is not defined. How can I define it? When I try to Google "how to declare lists" I only find ways to declare a list with elements that are already known, but I need to add elements after I define it

[cobalt flax]

""
0
0.0
[]
{}
()

all of these values in different data types are falsys

they are pieces of data but they are read in terms of booleans as false

[oblique spindle]

are you talking about type hinting ?
because you can just do
list1 = [] and store anything even another list

[cobalt flax]

so a falsy is just false in the perspective of mr boolean

[visual juniper]

my_list = [1,2,3]
my_list.append(4)

[quartz fulcrum]

oh.so if i write return []
then it will return false?

[oblique spindle]

no, only where implicit bool conversion is done.

[cobalt flax]

mhm

oh. wait huh

[quartz fulcrum]

implicit bool conversion?

[oblique spindle]

basically wherever python expects a bool [] is considered as false

[cobalt flax]

oh

[bronze dragon]

just write yourlist = []. you can modify (add elements, etc) later

[charred python]

if can only ever be true or false. So it does the impliciat conversion to bool. But return can return any value so it does not do any conversion. It returns the real value.

[oblique spindle]

if statements , while statements etc

[cobalt flax]

ohhhh

see wizard we're both learning

[dry pike]

Probably "true value" is not a good wording

[visual juniper]

it will return an empty list , which will get evaluated to false in the expression it is used

def foo():
  return []

print(type(foo()))

this will print the type as class list

[charred python]

Fixed.

[quartz fulcrum]

so in @bronze dragon's situation
..
it will be false?

[cobalt flax]

stringFalsy = ""

if stringFalsy:
    print("yeah")
else:
    print("noh")

this prints noh

[visual juniper]

in that code , yourlist is a list
but if you do something like

yourlist = []
if(!yourlist):
  print("falsy")
else:
  print("truthy")

it will print falsy

[cobalt flax]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ok so yeah its for if statements it seems

[cobalt flax]

OHHHHHHH DUDE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TELLING ME TO PUT ! BEFORE SMT AS A REVERSE OPERATOR

IT NEVER WORKED BUT I HAD TO PUT IT IN PARENTHESES??

[bronze dragon]

! isn't valid Python though

[cobalt flax]

thoe worms

[autumn forge]

in python you'd write not yourlist

[cobalt flax]

wow ok nvm

[visual juniper]

oh , yeah , my bad , you would use the not keyword

C++ habits

[cobalt flax]

so this guy is wrong?

grah those worms x2

[quartz fulcrum]

i sometimes get confused with != operator(i think what it is called)

[charred python]

On the intenet?! 😉

[quartz fulcrum]

can you explain

[visual juniper]

instead of

if(!yourlist)

you would just write

if not yourlist

rest of the stuff remains the samae

[autumn forge]

well, the syntax is wrong

[cobalt flax]

yeah ! except behind a = is invalid........

[cobalt flax]

yeah im talking syntax

ahah ok k ok ok ok

[visual juniper]

yeah , thats not valid python

[visual juniper]

inequality operator

[cerulean ravine]

Hmm, i want to record information at runtime about code objects, but I don't know how to uniquely tie them back to source code. This is a problem:

a, b = (lambda x: 1), (lambda x: 2)

This is two code objects with the same file name and line number 🙁

[cobalt flax]

for example if we did ```py
if 0 != 1:
print("zero aint 1")

treat "!=" as " is not "

[visual juniper]

well......

[cobalt flax]

its the direct opposite of ==

[charred python]

Fun fact, not also does impliciy bool conversions since it's meant to negate bools. So

my_list = []
print(not my_list) # prints True
return my_list # returns [] (not True/False)

[lapis sedge]

erm guys I learnt about pyhton in GCSE but only the basics and I'm trying to program a model that can just give me values on a quadratic graph but i've got this error I've never seen before and its basically saying that I have an "Invalid literal for int() with base 10" I dont know what that means

Its been like ages since I've done coding dont slime me

[visual juniper]

those two != and is not have two actual different meanings in python

[worn moth]

not not foo is bool(foo)

[pastel sluice]

show us the code, but the short version is, you're trying to use int() on something that can't be converted to an int properly

[ember quest]

i dont think this is conversion

[cobalt flax]

ok when im saying " is not " treat it as english

[lapis sedge]

Okay how do you show code

[cobalt flax]

not python syntax grah im bad at explaining

[pastel sluice]

!code

[edgy kraken]

Formatting code on Discord

Here's how to format Python code on Discord:

```py
print('Hello world!')
```

These are backticks, not quotes. Check this out if you can't find the backtick key.

For long code samples, you can use our pastebin.

[visual juniper]

!paste or this if the code is too big for discord

[edgy kraken]

Pasting large amounts of code

If your code is too long to fit in a codeblock in Discord, you can paste your code here:
https://paste.pythondiscord.com/

After pasting your code, save it by clicking the Paste! button in the bottom left, or by pressing CTRL + S. After doing that, you will be navigated to the new paste's page. Copy the URL and post it here so others can see it.

[cobalt flax]

this bot does wonders!

[quartz fulcrum]

i was about to ask this

[ember quest]

guys am i wrong about this

afaik it access dunder not

and doesnt coerce

i think python doesnt have coercion in general

[lapis sedge]

Count = 0
Horizontal = 0
HorizontalMultiplier1 = input(int("What is the exponent multiplier?"))
HorizontalMultiplier2 = input(int("What is the second x coefficient multiplier?"))
Y_intercept = input(int("What is the Y-Intercept value?"))
Height = HorizontalMultiplier1*Horizontal^2 + HorizontalMultiplier2*Horizontal + Y_intercept
print("Horizontal Value (x axis) is at position: " + str(Horizontal))
print("Vertical Value (Y axis) is " + str(Height) + " at x position: " + str(Horizontal))
for i in range(0,20):
    Horizontal = Horizontal + 0.5
    print("--------------------------------------- Value Number: " + str(Count) + " ---------------------------------------")
    print("Horizontal Value (x axis) is at position: " + str(Horizontal))
    print("Vertical Value (Y axis) is " + str(Height) + " at x position: " + str(Horizontal))
    print("----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------")

[edgy kraken]

Hey @lapis sedge!

Please edit your message to use a code block

Make sure you put your code on a new line following py. There must not be any spaces after py.

Here is an example of how it should look:
```py
print('Hello, world!')
```

This will result in the following:

print('Hello, world!')```

[charred python]

It's close enough for someone learning about why if statements care about Truthyness

conversion, coersion, indoctrination, whatever 🙂

[ember quest]

oh sure i dont know the context here i just logged on

im just asking if im horribly mistaken

[quartz fulcrum]

hi = 0
if hi == False:
    print('hello')

[lapis sedge]

Dont shoot me i'm SO buns but I have to make sure I don't get rusty its been 6 months

[visual juniper]

its more like an "operator" i would say

[quartz fulcrum]

is this code correct?

[visual juniper]

run it 🙂

[ember quest]

i cant find a clear thing on how dunder not is defined for lists

[quartz fulcrum]

i am on mobile

[cerulean ravine]

I'm not sure there's a precise definition of coercion that applies across languages.

[ember quest]

'correct' is a weird way to describe code

it sure wont give an error

[visual juniper]

just prefix it with !e and you can run code in #bot-commands

[oblique spindle]

It's invalid , ! Is not in C++ ,

[cerulean ravine]

empty lists are false, others are true. not inverts that.

[ember quest]

but i dont know what you wish for it to achieve

[spice hill]

I would describe implicit conversion to bool as the same kind of conversion that JavaScript does when you add a number and a string

[visual juniper]

but it IS in C++ 😂

[ember quest]

yes but is that defined in dunder bool? tbh i dont understand dunders for the builtin types since... arent int and bois written in c?

[quartz fulcrum]

before this -> ```py

[cobalt flax]

oh you cant index a dictionary with a number

ya gotta use the key

[ember quest]

(i havent tried terribly hard to dig into it)

[cobalt flax]

interestingggggggggggggg

[cerulean ravine]

they are written in C, but the true/false aspect is still documented.

[visual juniper]

yes
!e
```py
#python code
```

[ember quest]

sure but is it valid to say they have a dunder not? /gen

[fallow kiln]

Is there a designated place to discuss computer vision?

[quartz fulcrum]

data science channel is there

[cerulean ravine]

if you look at dir([]), it has those methods. They are implemented in C.

[ember quest]

okay thanks! i might check it out later

last time i tried to dig in into the source code i couldnt find the file that defines them rip

[cosmic moat]

Excuse me, me again. Am I allowed to do this?
table=[[" "]*(int)maxx]*(int)maxy

The error message just says "invalid syntax"

[cerulean ravine]

that is not Python

[cerulean ravine]

(int)x is not how you make an int from x.

[cerulean ravine]

int(x), but is maxx already an int?

[paper plaza]

Thats c style typecast

[cosmic moat]

I can't figure out if it is or not, but it said it wasn't

[cerulean ravine]

int(x)

[cosmic moat]

Thank you!

[quartz fulcrum]

in which library Measures of central tendency formulas exist?

[unborn lagoon]

!d statistics -- you've got all the common ones like mean, median, mode, stdev, and so on

[edgy kraken]

statistics

Added in version 3.4.

Source code: Lib/statistics.py

This module provides functions for calculating mathematical statistics of numeric (Real-valued) data...

[cerulean ravine]

@cosmic moat but also, you will find that 2D board shares data between cells, so you need to make it differently.

[shrewd pine]

why C cast not supported in C Python :'(

[robust ledge]

Beware that this might not be making the list of lists as you think it is.

[cosmic moat]

What does it do? I will investigate as well

[spice hill]

!e
this is valid syntax though

def convert_to_int(string):
    return reinterpret_cast<int>(string)

[edgy kraken]

:warning: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

[No output]

[brave nexus]

What is the best free python course and resource

[visual juniper]

HUH 💀

[shrewd pine]

!e

blah = [[]] * 5
blah[0].append('oh no')
print(blah)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

[['oh no'], ['oh no'], ['oh no'], ['oh no'], ['oh no']]

[quartz fulcrum]

is it possible that bot will import and run libraries in the server here

[cosmic moat]

Oh, I don't need to append, I'll be working with individual cells

[spice hill]

(this is why Rust invented the turbofish syntax, which would be reinterpret_cast::<int>())

[cerulean ravine]

try it. assigning to the cells will also be a problem.

[visual juniper]

looks like just some symbols moved around compared to C++💀

[spice hill]

This is reinterpret_cast < int > string

[brave nexus]

😢

[shrewd pine]

!e

blah = [[" "]*3]*3
blah[0][0] = "oh no"
print(blah)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

[['oh no', ' ', ' '], ['oh no', ' ', ' '], ['oh no', ' ', ' ']]

[cosmic moat]

I see...

[visual juniper]

yeah thats why i said 💀 xd

[spice hill]

foo<bar>(baz) in ambiguous, it could be foo < bar > baz or a templated method call. foo::<bar>(baz) is unambiguously a templated call

[unborn lagoon]

!res general
this has some good ones, Automate the Boring Stuff with Python and Harvard's CS50P are frequently recommended here and both are free online.

[edgy kraken]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[steel whale]

this feels a lot like C

[cosmic moat]

Do I need to make it something like blah[0][0][0]= 'oh no'?

[brave nexus]

👍

[shrewd pine]

!e something like this is fine in this case

blah = [[" "]*3 for _ in range(3)]
blah[0][0] = "yay"
print(blah)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

[['yay', ' ', ' '], [' ', ' ', ' '], [' ', ' ', ' ']]

[cosmic moat]

Ooh, okay!

[cobalt flax]

codeWordsForChristmasMission = {
    "THE RED CLAW" : "Santa Claus",
    "LITTLE LAMB" : "Present Delta",
    "GRAZE VICTIM" : "Christmas Tree"
}

flashCards = codeWordsForChristmasMission.items()

print("alright agent elf, here are the necessary codewords")
for codeWord, definition in flashCards:
    print(f"{codeWord} means {definition}")

rad.

[shrewd pine]

the three strings in each [" "]*3 will be the same string, but it doesn't matter in this case

[cobalt flax]

dictionaries are easyyyyyyyyyy

[shrewd pine]

(because you can't mutate strings)

[cosmic moat]

That makes sense!

[pulsar dragon]

Hello, I want a Python code that calculates a countdown to New Year's and sends "Merry Christmas" messages.

[bleak marsh]

you can ask claude

[paper plaza]

What data structure is dict built on?

[cobalt flax]

python

im sorry i dont know how to answer that question

[paper plaza]

Rip

[charred python]

Purple

[pulsar dragon]

Who should I ask?

[unborn lagoon]

Dictionaries are called hashmaps in some other languages.
And welp, that's what they are: hashmaps (or hash tables).

[bleak marsh]

claude ai bro

[paper plaza]

Perhaps orange

[cobalt flax]

oh do u not know how to code in python

[robust ledge]

Do you have specific questions about your attempts to create this that was can help you with?

[cerulean ravine]

we try very hard not to tell people to ask AI

[charred python]

I don't even need to try. It comes naturally.

[cerulean ravine]

i try very hard to not be too absolute with people

[quartz fulcrum]

i got afraid for a sec why everyone's name is followed by 00:00

but then i realised its 12:00 am here

[charred tusk]

!rule 10 see here

[edgy kraken]

Rules

10. Do not copy and paste answers from ChatGPT or similar AI tools.

[pulsar dragon]

This is the first time I've heard of it. I only know Gemini, ChatGPT, and grok

[steady rain]

I'm never absolute.

[bleak marsh]

but claude can teach him better actually i think

[charred python]

I don't. Ever. Period. 😉

[charred tusk]

hey wait a second...

[pulsar dragon]

I'm a beginner

[cosmic moat]

Does print() normally add a return carriage after it runs? Can I make it not do that?

[cerulean ravine]

what have you learned about his needs that made you think that?

[paper plaza]

Add end=""

[visual juniper]

disappointed to see this joke not get appreciated

[pulsar dragon]

How so?

[shrewd pine]

you can specify end, but there will probably be a better way to do what you're trying to do

[cobalt flax]

oh ok

[charred python]

I appreciated it but I can't emoji.

[cobalt flax]

uhh so like when does this timer start?

[visual juniper]

we demand peasent rights riots

[pulsar dragon]

Can you teach me?

[cobalt flax]

well im not suited to help you since im a beginner myself

[robust ledge]

That's what we're asking you. We help people learn python here. So where have you started with this project of yours?

[cobalt flax]

do you want this timer to be usable or just like a short exercise

[bleak marsh]

hes a beginner who is looking for a finished project, who'd probably end up more mystified and intrigued w coding more after seeing beauty in seeing working program from code

[cobalt flax]

when does the timer start

is it synced with your local time?

[pulsar dragon]

Interesting

[charred python]

We don't teach as in lead you, but we'll happy answer questions when you try something and need help getting past it.

[cobalt flax]

when does it send christmas messages? right at 12:00 am on christmas day?

[languid monolith]

Code, google, ask questions, learn etc. no one had time to hold your hand

[cobalt flax]

how often does it send christmas messages and when does it stop?

[bleak marsh]

compared to having a bunch of people randomly telling him x,y and leading him down potential unrequested paths

[shrewd pine]

e.g. doing complex output formatting with end is probably better done with string formatting, and then printing the final formatted string

[pulsar dragon]

I want to achieve my dream

[cerulean ravine]

it could be that he'd be happy with that, but it could also be bad. It's a policy here that we don't tell people to google things, and we don't tell them to ask AI.

[robust ledge]

What have you started already?

[cerulean ravine]

people come here to talk to people.

[bleak marsh]

ok np bro

[autumn forge]

aside from the fact that they'll almost certainly learn more from having a go themselves, people choose to ask questions here because they would like a response from people, not from an AI tool. I think we should respect that

[cobalt flax]

i havent used ai at all so far in my python learning cuz it feels gross

[winter pewter]

Guys when I run code in vscode why doesn’t it appear in output

[cobalt flax]

i know i will at some point but it feels so satisfying to have some random person who just helps people then help me

[quartz fulcrum]

you have to save it first

[cobalt flax]

cuz like we're both satisfied in this situation

[ember quest]

maybe you arent running it

[steady rain]

does the code have anything that produces visible output, and are you sure that those lines were executed?

[paper plaza]

Facts

[bleak marsh]

u should be happy to embrace the unknown brother 🙂

[pulsar dragon]

I am still studying

[cobalt flax]

i'm glad with where i've reached

[winter pewter]

yes I believe so

[steady rain]

show code?

[winter pewter]

[bleak marsh]

ok

[winter pewter]

where should I send it

[cobalt flax]

yo zm tell us like the exact goal of this timer and be as specific as possible

[paper plaza]

Do you have python installed

[steady rain]

!code

[edgy kraken]

Formatting code on Discord

Here's how to format Python code on Discord:

```py
print('Hello world!')
```

These are backticks, not quotes. Check this out if you can't find the backtick key.

For long code samples, you can use our pastebin.

[charred python]

How are you running it? Are you using the terminal? If so, the output will just appear in the terminal. But if you configure something in launch.json or tasks.json then the output tab MAY be an option. I forget if that's one of the output options for those.

[cobalt flax]

discord lets you format text with colors and a font like python

[cobalt flax]

so yk this

you send it here as a message

[ember quest]

oh if you are checking output tab its not there

[cobalt flax]

unless its too long and in which case.. !paste

oh damn

[pulsar dragon]

I want to work in cybersecurity

[winter pewter]

Il just copy and paste it, it’s only like 10 lines from a tutorial

[cobalt flax]

no not your goal, the timer's goal

the project goal

[ember quest]

i have not used ai for coding ever

[cobalt flax]

because your explanation was a bit vague

[ember quest]

altho i do ask it for code reviews and to bounce ideas off it

[pulsar dragon]

No, it's been my goal since I was little.

[shrewd pine]

e.g.

for i in range(3):
  for j in range(5):
    print(i+j, end='')
  print()

for i in range(3):
  items = [str(i+j) for j in range(5)]
  print(''.join(items))

[cobalt flax]

yeah im not asking about your goal right now, what do you need help with. a program

[pulsar dragon]

e.g.

[bleak marsh]

then ur not doing the best dev work

[cobalt flax]

do you want help with a specific program you want to make

[bleak marsh]

possible

[ember quest]

sure

im not a dev i dont do dev work

[inland thorn]

hey guys im new to python and i wanted to ask how like im supposed to deal with OOP

like i come from C++ and im used to like having an object own its data and have functions do stuff to that data but it honestly almost feels inappropriate when there's no such thing as private members in python

do i just, do it anyways? use that _ prefix and call it a day? it just feels wrong

[robust ledge]

That's not a productive comment to make, nor do you have any basis to measure it.

[ember quest]

you certainly can

[charred python]

I choose not to bite on that bait. Today.

[pulsar dragon]

Yes, I want a program that counts down to New Year's Eve and, at the end of the countdown, sends a private message saying "Merry Christmas".

[ember quest]

i dont know if its discouraged

[cobalt flax]

ok so a private message to who?

[ember quest]

whats 'a private message'

[pulsar dragon]

Merry Christmas

[winter pewter]

is_student = False
print(f"are you a student? {is_student}")

if is_student:
print("you are a student")
else:
print("you aren't a student")
print("what are you then?")

[edgy kraken]

Hey @winter pewter!

Please edit your message to use a code block

```py
print('Hello, world!')
```

This will result in the following:

print('Hello, world!')```

[cobalt flax]

a private message through gmail?

again mate you're being a bit vague here

[winter pewter]

@steady rain

[cobalt flax]

do you want this timer to actually work in a real world or are you just doing an exercise

[bleak marsh]

?? (not being argumentative first off), also I'm measuring it the same as like using autocomplete or intellisense lol it's just more efficient

[pulsar dragon]

For myself, because no one remembers me

[muted rampart]

Classes with their own instance data is perfectly normal in Python.
Yes theres no true "private" variables, but we treat the next developer using the object as a consenting adult who uses it properly or improperly in a way we can't control.

[paper plaza]

Yeah underscore for built in stuff such as constructor

[robust ledge]

Just write the class as you need it. Don't overthink the defensives of private or public. If you want to tell the next-dev "this is internal implementation" then use the _ prefix to communicate that.

[steady rain]

do i just, do it anyways? use that _ prefix and call it a day? it just feels wrong
Yes. Python has a different design philosophy than C++, namely that other developers are adults who can decide if want to use functionality that isn't part of the interface.

[cobalt flax]

alright a bit sad but dont dwell on that

[bleak marsh]

scribe your work on a piece of rock

[pulsar dragon]

Private message

[cobalt flax]

uhhh wait lemme check smt

[steady rain]

okay, what action did you perform to run this?

[cobalt flax]

through what software?

[paper plaza]

And operator overloading is the sams idea polymorphism is simpler no virtual...

[ember quest]

like a push notif?

[cobalt flax]

is this an email?

[robust ledge]

Is this supposed to make sense?

[pulsar dragon]

I don't have friends

[inland thorn]

maybe im overly paranoid from working in c and c++ too long

[ember quest]

im sure your os has a way to send notifs through the terminal

[inland thorn]

LOL

[ember quest]

so use that

[muted rampart]

Folks "private message" == "direct message" or DM

[ember quest]

the correct answer is to do this in bash

[winter pewter]

I clicked arrow button to the right and I clicked “run code”

[charred python]

It is obvious this person isn't genuinly seeking python help.

[bleak marsh]

was a follow up to this ?? (not being argumentative first off), also I'm measuring it the same as like using autocomplete or intellisense lol it's just more efficient

[pulsar dragon]

Suggest something

[ember quest]

well they didnt exactly make it clear

[muted rampart]

It's a slightly older term for the same thing. From forum days

[cobalt flax]

uhh i dunno through discord i guess?

[ember quest]

no its just reddit terminology

[winter pewter]

There were other options though, like “run code”, “run python file”, “run python file in dedicated terminal”, “run current file in interactive window”, and “run as task”

[ember quest]

just click the green button

[pulsar dragon]

How

[paper plaza]

But this isnt a statement it doesnt result in true or false

[muted rampart]

They got it from forums. 🙂

[winter pewter]

There is no green button

[cobalt flax]

he could check if its new year by just seeing when the day and month of his device is "1/1" right?

[ember quest]

i feel like i remember this person saying theyre like 13

[cobalt flax]

i dunno im brainstorming here im just trying to see your exact goal

[robust ledge]

You aren't measure anything at all. You have no numbers. You're claiming one cannot be as productive without any backing to that at all. It's a useless argument that just baits or incites. You program how you want too. Let others do what they want too. Don't try and correct what you cannot see.

[shrewd pine]

not python, but mildly related (and funny)
https://github.com/reactjs/react.dev/issues/3896

[cobalt flax]

we cant do anything with your idea until we get where it should be done

[charred tusk]

do not use it

[ember quest]

@cobalt flax mate hows your learning going

[charred python]

By default the output is in a terminal in a separate "Python Debug Console" terminal tab. At least using the microsoft Python extension.

[cobalt flax]

though this said "is it safe to be in funerals"

[quartz fulcrum]

but it is also wrong if one thinks it is a good idea to smack your head on the wall...we should advise the other if we know better

[pulsar dragon]

Do you know, forget it, I'm leaving. See you tomorrow.

[cobalt flax]

kinda paused for a few days after cracking the pascals triangle but now im back and i have just learned dictionaries

[steady rain]

I would have just written "I couldn't have made myself any clearer" and closed the issue.

[shrewd pine]

are you sure? what suggests it's not fine to use?

[cobalt flax]

good night my friend!

[robust ledge]

I'm not sure how that relates to the conversation I was having. You are correct. Asking is a powerful skill to learn.

[inland thorn]

this is why it feels inappropriate to me

[pulsar dragon]

You too

[ember quest]

ooh cool

[cosmic moat]

Alright, I've done it. Thank you for your help, everyone 🙂

[ember quest]

i recommend learning fairly deeply about data structures from the start

[steady rain]

quintessential web developer mindset right here
savage
is this a stereotype?

[ember quest]

much helpful i think

[bleak marsh]

You reply emotionally rather than logically. I said that not using, compared to using it, AI is less efficient from its basis of being able to act as a fast autocomplete, it's just like using intellisense.

[winter pewter]

So you’re saying it’s in terminal?

[shrewd pine]

does C even have this?

[ember quest]

at least better than wondering in the future how to implement a hash map without knowing what a hash map is

[cobalt flax]

like lists, tuples, sets and that jazz?

[cerulean ravine]

try to make statements that are not so absolute.

[shrewd pine]

(I guess there is static)

[robust ledge]

Okay.

[cobalt flax]

i've seen those

[ember quest]

yes and what they do, where we would use the,m ,etc

[inland thorn]

private members no but we usually do opaque pointers and such in c

[ember quest]

in school i was just taught what they are (tuples are immutable etc), and their methods, which isnt very helpful information in the real world

[winter pewter]

Guys are there any other better ide’s than vs code (blue one) for a beginner

[cobalt flax]

i think i have a baseline understanding of their differences

[ember quest]

i keep forgetting how to add stuff to a set

but i know when and why to use them

[cobalt flax]

its just .add

oh wait sorry

[ember quest]

i know (after aoc)

ill forget again until next year

[inland thorn]

you aren't being logical yourself. so you say that, where's the numbers?

[shrewd pine]

(an ill-advised user could cast an opaque pointer)

[robust ledge]

It's not worth pursuing the conversation futher, is it?

[inland thorn]

yes but you won't kill the internal implementation unless you do some byte manipulation screwery

[shrewd pine]

wouldn't you?

[cobalt flax]

by the way quick question

i've been told that lists are faster

faster in what way? how faster?

[shrewd pine]

faster than?

[ember quest]

for what?

[cobalt flax]

faster than lists

[winter pewter]

[ember quest]

what?

[inland thorn]

i have no idea how i would manipulate a struct through an opaque pointer given that the struct could literally be comprised of anything at any given moment lol

i should try that

[muted rampart]

That... lists are faster than lists?

[cobalt flax]

but i dont know like faster in what way

SORRY tuples

[robust ledge]

This can be a shared point. In python we loudly mark something as internal implementation. Does it stop anyone? No. Nothing will stop a determined programmer. It's just a sign that says "Do not use".

[cobalt flax]

tuples are faster

[ember quest]

okay thats not true

[cobalt flax]

im a word jumble (i jumble words)

[ember quest]

yes they are

[visual juniper]

fast in terms of what ? fast in terms of eating burritos ?

[steady rain]

faster than tuples for what?
objects do not have speed. actions do.

[ember quest]

i think its because for tuples the values are stored near each other in memory

[cerulean ravine]

the speeds don't matter.

[cobalt flax]

ok k ok ok let me restate my question without jumbling words

[muted rampart]

Both are pretty bad at that activity I think

[visual juniper]

xd

[ember quest]

altho im not quite sure

[cobalt flax]

How are tuples faster than other data structures, and in what way are they faster?

[steady rain]

both lists and tuples are an array of pyobject pointers in C.

[shrewd pine]

tuples might be faster, but probably not in a way that matters in most cases

[ember quest]

and i cant imagine it matters.

[cerulean ravine]

they aren't faster in any meaningful way

[cobalt flax]

hm ok

[inland thorn]

you can bypass c++ if you really try hard enough by manipulating the binary at runtime LOL

[cerulean ravine]

i dare you to find a program where you can measure the difference.

[halcyon ore]

hi

[ember quest]

okay then

[inland thorn]

alright guys thanks for ur help im gonna work on my project now and maybe come back here to chat soon

[shrewd pine]

just use the most apt structure for what you need

[cobalt flax]

wait why do tuples exist if you can just have a list and.... not change it

[cerulean ravine]

tuples can be hashed

[ember quest]

in any case even if they were faster it doesnt matter since you wouldnt use a tuple instead of a list

[cobalt flax]

expound

[muted rampart]

We usually use tuples of a known size and with known types for each element.
And we usually use lists that have a homogeneous type but an unknown size.

Beyond that, you'll need to actually benchmark your use case.

[ember quest]

they can be hashed. (look up hasing)

[cerulean ravine]

tuples can be elements of sets or keys in dictionaries. lists can't, bcause they can't be hashed.

[robust ledge]

You can bypass anything in any language if you try hard enough. And devs do. Python is more relaxed than that. We all agree to read the sign and stay out of internal implementations. If we don't, it's our fault when it breaks.

[ember quest]

also its so you cant exactly change them

[inland thorn]

they're faster because in the python interpreter it doesnt have to worry about ever changing it

i can't exactly say why/how that works i just know that's how it is from the quick python book

[quartz fulcrum]

I am currently navigating a career transition where my only viable options are remote work or further education. However, social media updates from peers are causing significant 'comparison trap' issues, making me feel pressured to pursue traditional roles that aren't right for me. I don't know if i study or do work from home jobs..btw the internships and jobs offered to me are not satisfactory

[ember quest]

if you make a tuple it makes it very clear that this is not a container you should fuck with much

[quartz fulcrum]

any suggestions?

[cobalt flax]

alrighty

[shrewd pine]

don't lists have an additional pointer indirection?

[cerulean ravine]

yes. does it matter?

[cobalt flax]

"The hash value is an integer that is used to quickly compare dictionary keys while looking at a dictionary."

[charred python]

At work we have a few places we reach info django internals and call or overwrite some _ method. I don't like it. Fortunately it's not often. It's contained.

[cobalt flax]

huh?

[ember quest]

that works for now

[muted rampart]

Moral of the story is, tuples are immutable. Once you create one, you can't add new elements or remove any: you have to make a new one.

Some operations may be quicker with tuples for that reason, because the container can know its size without having to recompute it ever.

[steady rain]

there's a semantic difference. but it's kind of hard to explain.
usually, all the elements in a list are the same type, and the exact number of elements in the list usually can't be known just from looking at the code.
tuples, on the other hand: it's usually visibly apparent in the code exactly how many elements are in the tuple, and what types they are. and they often aren't the same type.

[ember quest]

its a unique value that can be assigned to each object

[cobalt flax]

"compare" is such a broad term for me

[cobalt flax]

oh

wait hold on thats just indexing a list by using []

[robust ledge]

A great example of why putting too much effort into defensive programming isn't worth the time. The next-dev will do what they feel they must to achieve what they want.

[ember quest]

you literally can define a dunder hash that tells you how to hash them

[cobalt flax]

i will now google dunder hash because that is the funniest sounding phrase i have heard today

[ember quest]

its not exactly relevant

[harsh anchor]

it's just a way to quickly check if two things are equal

[cobalt flax]

DOUBLE UNDER OH

[velvet hull]

i didmt code today

[cobalt flax]

__ bingo

[muted rampart]

That's always fun, making a custom __hash__ to use my own class as a dict key. 🙂
Usually I just run tuple.__hash__(()) on some of the elements of that class.

Usually a AoC thing though.

[cerulean ravine]

you haven;'t yet coded today

[inland thorn]

yeah. its just in c++ its the norm to instead of putting up a sign, put up a fence. they'd have to jump over the fence to screw around. that's how i learnt to program, c++ was my first language and hell my only language (except c) until recently trying to learn python.

its just a lot looser than i learnt was acceptable when i was a impressionable beginner so. i mean its about the only way to do things in python so, i shall do it. just brand new to me

[ember quest]

yeah import dataclass import cache

[shrewd pine]

the original comment made it seem like they are the same thing

an extra pointer indirection can matter, but in the context of python where basically everything is already a pointer indirection, not much

[charred python]

lol. "dunder" is Double underscore methods like __str__ common in python to control behavior or implement protocols like __hash__.

[harsh anchor]

the way i learned to think about it is that python and c++ both have reflection APIs, it's just that python's is much easier to use

[cobalt flax]

if hashing is just assigning an integer value to an item in a tuple

i can also do that in a list??

[ember quest]

no

it assigns a value to the whole object

[shrewd pine]

(it's not unique)

[cobalt flax]

just have a list and then list[number]

[velvet hull]

mhan u r so positive,thx,i will do a small one today

[cobalt flax]

the WHOOLE object hm ok ok ok

[ember quest]

i guess it doesnt have to be but for built in types i think it is?

[shrewd pine]

it's not

[cerulean ravine]

right. tuples are nanoscopically faster than lists. It won't matter. It's definitely not a reason to choose between tuples and lists.

[inland thorn]

difficulty of use was never an issue for me. c++ is overwhelming not difficult, too much standard lib nonsense. at least for me. python also has a big stdlib which i don't like but at least it's not a complete train wreck. coding in python is a lot faster but i wouldn't say any easier. at the end of the day programming is programming, whether or not you have to deal with pointers and spam semicolons

[robust ledge]

It's a familiar struggle for me. I work in a .Net and Java shop. Bringing those devs into python always hits this point. "What do you mean I can't make it private?"

[inland thorn]

LOL

[cobalt flax]

this is also bashing me with a light stick

[harsh anchor]

i wasn't commenting on the difficulty of the languages in general, just talking about the reflection API

[cobalt flax]

so let me define hash right now

a hash is an integer value designated to the whole data structure object in question

yay or nay?

[ember quest]

very much nay i think

[cobalt flax]

dang i've been nayed so much today

[ember quest]

i dont see why it has to be an integer

[harsh anchor]

it is an integer

[cobalt flax]

but is it a value?

[shrewd pine]

I did say earlier that it's not a performance difference that is likely to matter and to just pick the more apt data structure for what you're doing :P

[harsh anchor]

we should be precise when we say "data structure". each instance of an object may have a different hash. so it's not each data structure, it's each instance of a data structure

[cobalt flax]

like ok here here here ```py
myTuple = (1, 2, 3)

how would i "hash" this tuple

and what would it give me

[harsh anchor]

!d hash

[edgy kraken]

hash

hash(object, /)```
Return the hash value of the object (if it has one). Hash values are integers. They are used to quickly compare dictionary keys during a dictionary lookup. Numeric values that compare equal have the same hash value (even if they are of different types, as is the case for 1 and 1.0).

Note

For objects with custom [`__hash__()`](https://docs.python.org/3/reference/datamodel.html#object.__hash__) methods, note that [`hash()`](https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#hash) truncates the return value based on the bit width of the host machine.

[ember quest]

you dont have to

[cobalt flax]

well yeah

[visual juniper]

hash (usually) is a function that takes in an arbitrary size of data and produce output string of fixed size
hash for different data should be different , otherwise we say the hashes "collide"

[inland thorn]

also what reflection api c++ doesnt have one (to be added in c++26 tho)

there's RTTI sure but like

correct me if im wrong though i never really explored the stdlib i was fine reinventing the wheel if i didn't have to deal with the stdlib lol

[cobalt flax]

ok HASH VALUES ARE INTEGERS ok ok so thats settled

[visual juniper]

i was fine reinventing the wheel
average C dev

[shrewd pine]

!e

print(hash(42))
print(hash(42 + 2**61 - 1))

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | 42
002 | 42

[cobalt flax]

and then "They are used to quickly compare dictionary keys during a dictionary lookup."

[inland thorn]

once i made my own math.h

[cobalt flax]

that loses me

[cerulean ravine]

"likely". It won't matter.

[visual juniper]

must have been an exercises lol

[cobalt flax]

wait is this some like insane backend thing

is this storage size

[shrewd pine]

(so much for not speaking in absolutes :)

[cerulean ravine]

you can try it: print(hash( (1, 2, 3) ))

[cerulean ravine]

yes, sometimes it's warranted when talking about things other than people!

[inland thorn]

kind of i just wanted to see how math.h worked made my own sin() and cos() and all those functions

[harsh anchor]

this requires a bit more detail. dictionaries are essentially a list internally. they store elements by using the hash as an index into the list. so to check if two things are equal, you hash them, and check if they are the same hash (then you can check for equality after)

[cobalt flax]

it gives me 529344067295497451

???????????????????????

[bronze dragon]

What were you expecting?

[cobalt flax]

so this is 100% some backend thing

[ember quest]

lmfao

[cerulean ravine]

the hash function isn't meant to be understandable or make sense. The important thing is that equal values have equal hashes.

[cobalt flax]

I dont know. I dont know what a hash is and i am struggling here RAJU

[harsh anchor]

yeah i guess i was speaking a bit hand-wavey

[cerulean ravine]

(and that unequal values have likely unequal hashes)

[cobalt flax]

so i can just use it to see if two lists are the same??

[ember quest]

wait until you see the SHA's

[bronze dragon]

Yes, but it helps if you articulate why you're surprised. If you are.

[faint solar]

quick question, what kind of job can you get with python?

[cerulean ravine]

no, because you can't hash lists, which is where we started.

[cobalt flax]

I'm surprised because I dont know whats going on

[cobalt flax]

sorry right yeah tuples

[cerulean ravine]

to see if two lists are the same, use list1 == list2

[cerulean ravine]

even there, no. Two unequal values can have equal hashes.

[exotic flax]

hi all

[cobalt flax]

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Users\...\.py", line 13, in <module>
    print(hash( [1, 2] ))
          ~~~~^^^^^^^^^^
TypeError: unhashable type: 'list'

[exotic flax]

are you talking about hash collision?

[cobalt flax]

ok i mean if a hash is just giving me an id for a tuple

[exotic flax]

Technically yes but very very low chance of that

[cobalt flax]

i guess it makes sense why it'd have to be an unchanging thing

[exotic flax]

or fo you mean __repr__

[cerulean ravine]

yes

[cobalt flax]

a list is changing though so its more complicated

and thus cant be hashed

[bronze dragon]

Note that there is a separate thing in Python called id, which is not the same as a hash. Everything has an id, even lists.

[cobalt flax]

ok so lets just pretend that doesnt exist right now because i cant afford this hole to get any deeper

[exotic flax]

yep yep! it's called being mutable as a technical term btw (tuples are immutable)

[cerulean ravine]

raise HoleTooDeepException

[cobalt flax]

now, ol' nedbat over here said that hashes of tuples arent meant to be understandable but are useful when checking if two tuples have the same hashes

[velvet hull]

do functions in other modules become methods or functions in a class becomes methods

[harsh anchor]

at the risk of deepening the hole, you could hash lists, at the risk of loosing it in a dict. other languages let you do this. python chooses to not let you hash lists, though

[cobalt flax]

wouldnt the only cases in which tuples have identical hashes if the tuples themselves are identical?

[harsh anchor]

methods are specifically functions in a class

[exotic flax]

in the spirit of this I would say ignore the bash collision and repr stuff nedbat and i discussed, just know that in rare edge cases you can get a false positive of their equality, yes every program in the world faces it, no we don't have a easy solution, typically we just accept it as is and move in

[cerulean ravine]

think of a hash as a shortcut hint about the likelihood that two things are equal.

[cobalt flax]

ok lets stay on python island

[harsh anchor]

not quite. remember that two things that are unequal might still have the same hash

[cobalt flax]

ok

[tepid seal]

Why do logging messages not appear in mu debug mode

[exotic flax]

*hash collision

[cobalt flax]

ok i think im understanding this a bit more

so how is hash collision a practical thing to use

[bronze dragon]

if two tuples have unequal hashes, you know for sure that they are unequal.
if they have equal hashes, they may or may not be equal. you need to actually compare their values to be sure.

[harsh anchor]

it is generally not good

[cobalt flax]

oh ok i had the wrong idea this whole time lol

thought hashes were useful

[cerulean ravine]

hashes are. hash collisions are not.

[harsh anchor]

but you might be conflating hash collision with two things having the same hash

[cerulean ravine]

(like cars!)

[shrewd pine]

if hash(x) != hash(y) then for sure x != y

[cobalt flax]

so then just, compare the values from the start?

[exotic flax]

hash collision is a very rare thing which typically requires a bery large amount of computing to do intentionally. The annual GDP of a small country worth of computing would be needed to do it intentionally to trick Bitcoin into accepting something. it happens in nature, you don't worry about it

[cobalt flax]

why would some random backend integer number be useful for your daily programming life

[cobalt flax]

Oh ok thats pretty cool

[bronze dragon]

it's useful for making a dict, and dicts are very useful for daily programming life.

[shrewd pine]

||modulo erroneous implementations of eq and hash||

[cerulean ravine]

this is a different kind of hashing

[exotic flax]

Hash collision is when two things mistakenly have the same hash.
hash comparison is the day to day thing you want to use

[cobalt flax]

you can turn a tuple into a dictionary?

using hashes?

[exotic flax]

Yes and no, cryptosecure hashing yeah I know but also this is to reassure this guy of how rare it is

[cerulean ravine]

it's easy in Python to make two tuples with the same hash.

[bronze dragon]

you can use a tuple as a key in a dictionary, because they are hashable.

[cobalt flax]

so the value (tuple's hash) of a key (the tuple)

?

[bronze dragon]

the value can be whatever you want

the idea of a dict is to let you quickly look up values by their key. as a fact of implementation, it uses hashes to achieve this efficiently.

[cobalt flax]

Ok so if I had a tuple variable and put that variable into a dictionary

the dictionary is referring to the tuple variable by the tuple's hash?

[harsh anchor]

i think you should get more familiar with dictionaries before learning how they work internally

[cobalt flax]

yay or nay?

[shrewd pine]

collisions are rare until you have weird data distributions

[inland thorn]

i have another question

if there's no private members then why would i need setters and getters?

like i would imagine there's a place for them, but where? thread safety? like if i have just a game object and this object has velocity and stuff do i have a setter and getter for all of its member variables even if i can just tap into them directly and set them? that just seems like a waste of code?

i understand why you would need the illusion of private members at all, 100% but like, when it comes to stuff that is accessible, i would usually just make everything private and give it a setter/getter in c++

[bronze dragon]

internally it uses the tuple's hash to look up the associated value, yes.

[cobalt flax]

i should've stopped when i realised this was an internal backend thing but sunk-cost fallacy

[cobalt flax]

EURIKA!

[harsh anchor]

sunk-cost fallacy suggest that you should stop

[cobalt flax]

I probably wont use this knowledge much as the dictionary is using it not me BUT

[unborn lagoon]

You usually don't. For setters and getters, we have attributes and properties.

[harsh anchor]

you generally don't need setters and getters

[mossy sigil]

hello everyone

[cobalt flax]

i appreciate the help so thank you very very very super ultra duper very much my friend

[shrewd pine]

e.g. if you let users provide integers that you use as dict keys, a malicious user can do fun stuff to slow your code down significantly

[exotic flax]

think of it like this: a box has a fixed shape. Cloth does not. a cloth bag that fits 2 boxes now might fit two differently shaped boxes later, or might have more than one box, so you can't compare two cloth bags by the shape. you can compare two boxes by the shape.

cloth is a list.
box is a tuple, an integer, a string, or some such data type that can be compared.

the hash is like if you took the shape of an object & made a shitty (but consistently shitty) drawing of it. a special machine can look at the drawing and understand kiinda what the original might look like, but you can only look at it and scratch your head as it is. On the other hand, you can compare two drawings just fine.

[inland thorn]

alright all my questions have been answered

thanks all, gonna go work now

[exotic flax]

yeah but again malicious user.exe might be able to do the math by hand or might need a supercomputer to do it depending on hashing algorithm and yes data distribution. hence cryptosecure algorithms vs non-secure algorithms

[cobalt flax]

mhmmmmm got it

[exotic flax]

a real cryptosecure algorithm would need a very very specific dataset to maximize chance of collision

[cobalt flax]

great explanation

[cerulean ravine]

you're talking about supercomputers, but data collisions in Python aren't about expensive computations

[exotic flax]

comparisons are computationally easy, that's what people do in Python all the time. a hash collision attack is difficult. Difficulty scales based on the hashing algorithm used. python doesn't use a cryptosecure algorithm for dictionaries (tho implementations with secure hashes do exist, I made one myself using sha256 and a simpler hashing later to minimize memory usage)

[exotic flax]

you're welcome!

[cerulean ravine]

hash collisions in Python data are not difficult computationally.

i think it's important to distinguish between cryptographic hashing and the kinds of hashes Python uses for data.

[exotic flax]

dude i think you're not reading what i said... yes python uses a weak algorithm that's what i said, that doesn't impact the fact that you can use a more secure one if you want

[cerulean ravine]

I see that you said that. I think it's important to be very very clear and not mix the two in the same paragraphs, because it's easy to confuse them.

[exotic flax]

hm well that's a different story then yes

[cerulean ravine]

and data collisions are really really easy. If you build a web service that accepts stringified tuples, and stores them in a set as actual tuples, it's easy for me to attack you.

[cobalt flax]

"TypeError: dict.get() takes no keyword arguments"

wh, YEAH YOU DO!!!

context:

while True:
    missionInfo = input("What will you be expecting on the mission, agent elf? ")
    print(codeWordsForChristmasMission.get(missionInfo, __default="Huh?"))

# codeWordsForChristmasMission is a dictionary defined previously

[dull dune]

if you're ever wondering if you're wrong or the stdlib is wrong, always assume it's you until you've exhausted other possibilities.

in that case, you cannot pass __default as a kwarg

[cobalt flax]

yeah i know im wrong i just have no idea how

i trust my computer...

[unborn lagoon]

where did you find this __default parameter?
also, yeah, you can't pass it that way. it has to be .get(key, default)

[cobalt flax]

oh yeah the __default was bad

[exotic flax]

^^

[dull dune]

see the definition here:

[harsh anchor]

🤨

[exotic flax]

lol ive never seen it before

[dull dune]

https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#dict.get

[cobalt flax]

i dunno i thought i could and it showed up for me

[dull dune]

that trailing / makes it positional args only

[exotic flax]

true true

[cobalt flax]

heres the doc on .get()

"Return the value for key if key is in the dictionary, else default. If default is not given, it defaults to None, so that this method never raises a KeyError."

so like i gave a default

how else do i give a default

[cerulean ravine]

where did you see it with the double underscore like that?

[cobalt flax]

it just showed up in the little dropdown that you see in IDEs

[exotic flax]

typically you don't use dunder variables unless you're messing with things python level

[cobalt flax]

so i thought its valid if its given to me!!!

[dull dune]

in fact, in the docs if you hove ryour mouse over that trailing slash it tells you what it does

[exotic flax]

which IDE

[cerulean ravine]

i'd be curious to see an image of that?

[cobalt flax]

alright where do i send it

i'll just do off topic

[exotic flax]

I've only ever used dunder variables (double underscore) when I was messing around with repr so I can make a d20 function that gets a random number and load it into a python interactive terminal and then be lazy and type d20 instead of d20() or d(20)

certainly possible but no sane person would consider the effort spent to be worth it, especially when you can just make it a script that takes user input instead lol

iirc str and repr both had to be edited, and i used 3 layers of abstraction with decorators to get it working

[dry pike]

dunder methods are intended to be written

that's normal

[exotic flax]

do you mean common ones like init ? or in general?

[cerulean ravine]

dunder methods (with two underscores leading and trailing) are very different than __variables

[exotic flax]

fair, I've been smashing my head into js too much recently, yes there's a difference btw dunder variables and methods 😅

in js my brain just treats everything as a variable even methods

[unreal terrace]

Can I beginner ask questions here ??

[spice hill]

I wonder, would anyone be interested in a quiz about re similar to https://fstrings.wtf/? It seems like I'm learning new WTF moments every time I open the re docs.
I would make it python-independent but I don't know much about other languages' flavours

[cerulean ravine]

yes!

[cerulean ravine]

i'm not sure i've heard people call __variables "dunder" much

[spice hill]

another similar quiz (not python): https://this.quiz.is.fckn.gay/

[exotic flax]

really? I do it all the time and I've worked with people who do

[unreal terrace]

Well I have just started learning Python and I know basic OOP but I want to practice it well like what's the best way to do that ??

[exotic flax]

idk that link looks gay

[cerulean ravine]

pick a project and build it.

[harsh anchor]

i think most people use "dunder" to mean __variable__

[spice hill]

This is how I learned that this is not Undefined Behavior in Rust ```rs
unsafe {
_ = *std::ptr::null::<u32>();
}

[unreal terrace]

Project as in ??? I am sorry if I sound dumb but I am at a very beginner level so are there projects that I can do as well

[cerulean ravine]

!kind

[edgy kraken]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[unreal terrace]

Thanks kind sir

[cerulean ravine]

common advice is to not use __variables anyway, so maybe a lot of people don't have much reason to talk about them.

[shrewd pine]

re module in particular, or regex in general?

[spice hill]

I would make it python-independent but I don't know much about other languages' flavours

so just re

[shrewd pine]

ah ok

[spice hill]

but the $ thing for example is inherited from PCRE

[cerulean ravine]

do you mean "end of string"? That's older than PCRE

[shrewd pine]

end of string but not including a trailing \n

[spice hill]

I meant the behaviour where it matches before the final \n, e.g. re.search("^123$", "123\n") is not None

apparently in PCRE there's a flag to disable this

[shrewd pine]

is it just a single \n?

[cerulean ravine]

i see

[spice hill]

Yep, 123\n\n doesn't work

\r\n also doesn't work

[shrewd pine]

I guess that normally won't matter

because python translates the ||icky|| CRLF to ||nice|| LF

(by default, at least)

[spice hill]

when reading a file

[shrewd pine]

yeah

[dry pike]

LF(G)

[spice hill]

liquefied factual gas

[exotic flax]

yep pretty much. one of the scripts at a place i worked used a weird ass thing which modified and then reset some __vars, they used to call em dunder vars

[zealous edge]

who thinks I should make a website a bit like bit.ly but for short links, image upload and pastebin

[granite wyvern]

The end-of-line vs newline thing really only matters when searching multiline text, where there's a choice about whether you want $ to mean and end-of-line eg a newline or end-of-string. Personally I usually want end-of-string for $.

If you're not doing multiline stuff, just rstrip("\n") and not worry.

for line in file:
    line = line.rstrip("\n")
    regexp matching here, with no $ ambiguity

[zealous edge]

that would be cool 😎

[cerulean ravine]

if you want to make it you should.

[spice hill]

It matters because you might think you're validating more strictly than you do. For example, you might accidentally accept 123\n into the system and pass it to other system that only expects digits, breaking some kind of process

[pine lake]

Stupid question
New computer, what Python version should I install

[gaunt badge]

I think the reason for the existence of url shorteners mostly doesn't exist anymore. With the exception of QR codes maybe?

[spice hill]

Of course, once you know about this, you will rstrip or just use \A and \Z

Have long URLs stopped existing?

[zealous edge]

I mean sure lol, but I want it to also be used by other people, not just a useless peice of project

maybe I start slow and then pick up the pace

[gaunt badge]

No, but microblogging platforms now count links with a fixed number of chars

[granite wyvern]

Yah. Or in my case, since I often treat matching as token parsing, checking that m.end() == len(s).

[cerulean ravine]

it['s hard to get people to use things. Build what you want, use it, add things you want to use.

[gaunt badge]

(I'm not counting human-readable short URLs in this take)

[cerulean ravine]

start with 3.12

[spice hill]

Here's a usecase: some code playgrounds save their entire state in the URL hash (e.g. pyright, typescript). it is stateless, cool and hip in practice until your URL hits 2000 characters and you can't send it over Discord anymore

[granite wyvern]

A few times in the last weeks I've needed to hand type a URL, with no copy/paste as an alternative. A short URL is a win there.

[gaunt badge]

Okay.. very specific exception

[gaunt badge]

Do you really prefer url.xx/3b6D9L over example.com/2024/foo-bar-bat in that scenario?

[fathom pasture]

3.13

[spice hill]

A few months ago I made this abomination https://decorator-factory.github.io/playground-from-gist/?typeCheckingMode=standard#basedpyright:52cfdabee75baf1d00b093bb34b82e0b
(https://github.com/decorator-factory/playground-from-gist)

[spice hill]

If you use pyenv/uv, you can install all of them very easily when you want

[granite wyvern]

For something that short? No, i much prefer a readable descriptive URL. But a 40 character URL whose long part is a hashcode or other "random string" part? Which, also, must be perfectly correct? Ugh.

[spice hill]

or I guess the py launcher works too

[fathom pasture]

does python have a wrapper for windows console api or a tui lib for it like it have curses, termios etc for unix
in stdlib

[granite wyvern]

Don't get me started on mailers with 100+ char URLs split over lines.

[spice hill]

!pypi windows-curses

[edgy kraken]

windows-curses v2.4.1

Support for the standard curses module on Windows

Released on <t:1736555203:D>.

[gaunt badge]

Yeah okay. In that case the short URL is kind of ephemeral and only used to send a tab from one device to another?

[fathom pasture]

forgot to mention, stdlib

[spice hill]

no idea, sorry

[soft turret]

How do i make an input so that the user inputs as many tasks as they want until they want to stop? when they want to stop then enter a key

[spice hill]

but probably not

[granite wyvern]

Yeah, that kind of thing. I def want to bookmark the post-redirect "real" URL.

[zealous edge]

I mean I guess it starts from the core

I just HATE html and css

it's painful 😭

[gaunt badge]

I see, point taken. (I don't remember ever having that scenario, I use Firefox's tab syncing thing.)

[cerulean ravine]

then find a way to do it without them, or use this as a chance to embrace them. If you are drawn to web apps, you need to solve that problem somehow

[fathom pasture]

also the official tutorial of curses on docs.python.org recommend unicurses

[granite wyvern]

I typically use a loop where I prompt for lines until they enter a line which is a dot on its own. Easy to type, not as prone to error as "end on a blank line" would be.

[zealous edge]

I mean if people are willing to help me solve that problem, it would be nice

[spice hill]

If you do decide to leave stdlib and you want something more complex, there are urwid and textual libraries

(or if you want e.g. 24-bit color)

[granite wyvern]

So the user experience is like this:

CSS[~]fleet2*> para=`readdottext`
Enter short update description. Terminate with lone dot.
> line 1
> line 2
>
> line 4
> .
CSS[~]fleet2*> echo "$para"
line 1
line 2

line 4
CSS[~]fleet2*>

[fathom pasture]

yeah I would use textual but I am not leaving stdlib

and I am even fine with no color(just black and white)

[granite wyvern]

Wiring in your own colours is pretty easy, you just need a table of the ANSI escapes (assuming that's enough - the point of termcap/terminfo on UNIX is to accomodate different escapes).

[cerulean ravine]

my recommendation would be to find a CSS library/framework, and keep the design simple

[fathom pasture]

windows doesn't support ansi nicely

that uses windows virtual term sequences api

requires enabling explictly though thats 2 lines if you are already using kernel32.dll from ctypes and msvcrt

[fathom pasture]

and in fact it only started supporting some parts of posix api via a native translation since 2014 release of windows 10 and that behaviour is also inconsistent across versions, newer ones support more but older ones will still struggle

and its still incomplete

[nimble cairn]

Hello

[fathom pasture]

they have a milestone for having complete support somewhere in future enough that they will natively port and develop ncurses for windows

[granite wyvern]

Oh, I've got milestones. But not living in the US or UK, I work in kilometres and fall short.

[fathom pasture]

meterstones for us(I also use metric)

[slate wren]

👋

[cerulean ravine]

living in Boston, I pass a few literal milestones on walks

https://maps.app.goo.gl/4HmidypFxwnssmko7 (good thing they have a shortener.....)

[scenic finch]

CSS is solved with tailwind

HTML is fine if you have copilot or something

[cerulean ravine]

@zealous edge might like the advice.

[fathom pasture]

aka css without syntax highlighting, more fragile and making your html attributes 1000 chars long

[unborn lagoon]

I'm pretty sure @apply is supposed to solve that last one.

[fathom pasture]

css works best when scoped

[dry pike]

vue SFCs

[runic flower]

I didn't know you were in Boston. I lived there for years. If you haven't walked it yet the minuteman bike trail that goes from arlington out to lexington is really pretty. (and used to be my daily commute)

[fathom pasture]

like how svelte and next uses scoped/modular css

[cerulean ravine]

that is a good route, though far from me for a walk.

[fathom pasture]

that really eliminates the main downside of css in large codebases

[scenic finch]

I like it

[river needle]

👋

[soft turret]

Guys how do i acc make something runnable?

Like how can i make the python code work in an app that a person can download lets say

and how can i make it so i know what those people in my app are doing

[runic flower]

python is designed to be shipped as code, if they have python installed they can just run your code.
You can bundle python.exe with your code and distribute that, but it's more a pita.

[runic flower]

You might be better off making a webservice that you run on your end, and they just connect to with any web browser.

[soft turret]

Look i am trying to make a Todolist app for myself and some other people how do i make it that the code works and would i need to use html?

[granite wyvern]

If they're running it locally, you don't need HTML. Just a file to store things in.

[steel whale]

how do I build Kivy apps for android?

[runic flower]

yeah, if you want an html based todolist that certainly sounds like a web app.

[soft turret]

Ok so on my end just a file but what is needed for me to be able to access things on their end also?

[steel whale]

no need for caution, this phone has been thru hell and beyond

[granite wyvern]

I meant a file on their end.

[soft turret]

I am so confused

[runic flower]

it's not hard, but not trivial either, you'll want to look up the steps to push your kivy app to android.
as for developing it, you just write it and run it locally until you're ready to move it to android.

[granite wyvern]

Well a TODO list is just a list of things to do, maybe with frills like due dates or repeats etc.

A user might run your app locally, and store the list locally, in a file.

[steel whale]

i see that theres a kivy launcher thing but its not on the play store and there are no releases either

[runic flower]

you don't need a kivy launcher. (that I know of) just write your kivy app locally, build and run that, just like you would any other python app with a ui. And then when you're ready follow a guide to copy it to your phone/device.

[steel whale]

okay then, they recommend using buildozer which simplifies the apk build so i'll just use that

[runic flower]

I had fun with kivy, really enjoyed it, but there were things I wanted that it could not do so I switched my interface to web based before I actually got to the "move it to my phone" stage. Yeah bulldozer sounds right.

[cerulean ravine]

there are a number of ways to build your application, and people are describing different aspects of different choices.

[simple willow]

Would Windows Subsystem for Linux be useful to learn for python?

[cerulean ravine]

yes, but windows alone is fine too

[simple willow]

ah ok

[pastel sluice]

@simple willow WSL is useful if you have things you want to run in Python that are Linux-only (certain modules only work on Linux), but for most "vanilla" applications Windows is fine

[slow rivet]

Because wsl let's you continue to use windows at the same time

[granite wyvern]

Switching back and forth is pretty tedious. With WSL you can use windows or use linux at the same time.

[pastel sluice]

dual booting is deeply inconvenient

[slow rivet]

Some people also just prefer a Linux environment for development, stuff like bash or nix or whatever while wanting their main window manager and os to be windows (for some reason)

[simple willow]

my parents don't really want me to dual boot or install linux on this laptop

[granite wyvern]

Odd.
But just use WSL; you don't need to tell them it's a Linux VM.

[pastel sluice]

nope, it's a real Linux

And you now have quite a breadth of choices for which Linux to use, too

[granite wyvern]

WSL runs a full Linux (usually an Ubuntu) in a VM.

[slow rivet]

(why are your parents opposed to Linux?)

[granite wyvern]

With dual booting you have to take care to partition to make space for the linux or windows, and not have one tromp on the other.

[simple willow]

They don't hate it, they are very strong believers on keeping a device the same and not installing or upgrading operating systems

[granite wyvern]

Ok. Well WSL is just an "app" from the windows point of view. An app running a Linux VM.
And there's also cygwin, which gets you a UNIX nvironment in windows (so not a VM).

[slow rivet]

They don't update the os?

[simple willow]

They don't mind VMs, but installing other Operating Systems directly on the computer is a no go

[granite wyvern]

If they're running windows 11 I suspect they don't get a choice about that these days 🙁

[simple willow]

they do update, just not upgrade to the newest version, like Win 10 to 11 or iOS 18 to 26

[granite wyvern]

Well it is intrusive and risky (easy to damage the main OS by accident).

[slow rivet]

I guess screw security patches

[granite wyvern]

Oh it sounds like they do security updates.

[charred tusk]

what do patches know about security anyways

[simple willow]

they will if they are forced, like security stuff, it is just the big OSes they don't like to update

[slow rivet]

Right but they only do those for older "editions" for so long

[granite wyvern]

Yes.

[charred tusk]

N-1 stays decently supported for a while

[granite wyvern]

We're a mix.

[charred tusk]

Windows

[granite wyvern]

Well WSL should be jst fine then.

[silver plover]

Freedom isn't free.

[slow rivet]

If anything if they don't like forced changes to the os etc etc Linux is much much much better, windows loves forcing bs updates on people

[dusk adder]

leaving windows was a good decision

[silver plover]

So does discord and notion.

[pastel sluice]

some people use Windows because they actually want to, or because they have no choice.

[silver plover]

Why would anyone care what you use?

[granite wyvern]

Ignore the haters. There's a big mix of desktops in use here.

[slender urchin]

I only have a windows install because of some windows only software

[pastel sluice]

most of the insults seem directed at Windows users, tbh

[spice hill]

i don't think it's worth spending time with people who insult you because you use the wrong operating system

[pastel sluice]

I use Windows on my own systems, and my remote hosts are all Linux; the difference has never been a problem

[silver plover]

People online with with strong absolutist statements are people to be ignored.

[granite wyvern]

Well people on UNIXlike systems tend to not like Windows. Certainly, on a personal basis, I want to throw a windows machine across the room in rage after I've been failing to use it for a few minutes. But for people comfortable there, there's no general reason to try to change their choice. Python certainly works on Windows.

[pastel sluice]

pretty much. I've been using Windows for a long time, I'm familiar and comfortable with it.

[silver plover]

My desktop is windows, laptop MacBook, and I use Linux (wsl or on aws) daily

[granite wyvern]

it's useful.

[pastel sluice]

it does help. my own familiarity with Linux is limited but I can get Python stuff done with it

[slow rivet]

Meanwhile one of my main reasons for switching to Linux were tilling window managers, and my reason for staying has been windows 11

[granite wyvern]

Yeah. I don't use tiling window managers (they tend to autoplace things) but I certainly tile my windows, just with key bindings for "full screen", "left half", "right half" and so on.

[hearty bridge]

I am making a WhatsApp AI chatbot via code, I am stuck

Can anyone please help? The message sent by user is not detected and showed in my backend via the web book.

[slow rivet]

I have been using niri the last few months and I really like it, tilling but without the usually issue of running out of space on a workplace

[subtle coyote]

What's the most interesting thing y'all have ever worked on?

[hearty bridge]

I had added the Ngrok call back, URL. But it was still not working.

[granite wyvern]

I use many wokrplaces. ("spaces" in macOSX speak, desktops in the X11/Linux/UNIX world).

[slow rivet]

[slow rivet]

I usually have around 3-4

[subtle coyote]

I mean using python 😭

[scenic finch]

I dual boot and it’s the opposite for me

Windows breaks half the time and Linux always works 😭

[slender urchin]

What are you doing to it lol

Generally when I see someone say there windows constantly breaks the have tried "debloating" it

[granite wyvern]

1: home/hosuehold/family, 2: work1, 3: persoanl code, 4: general web browsing, 7: reading, 8: work2, 9: work3
Or variations on that, if I'm using "numeric" desktops. Used to use named desktops when Linux was my desktop.

[slow rivet]

I generally have:

1. Programming (terminals, editor, browsers)
2. Discord
3. Games

And then on a second monitor I often have YouTube open

[granite wyvern]

Discord/slack/teams/signal are all "all desktops" apps for me.

6 was games for me, but I don't really do that much.

[slow rivet]

I guess with niri it would make more sense to keep games and discord on the same workspace, but this layout is a bit of a muscle memory from using non-scrolling wms

[granite wyvern]

I'm a huge fan of MacOS' Cmd-H "hide" keystroke. Just withdraws all the windows for an app. Great for discord etc.

[slow rivet]

One thing I should get better at is using different browser windows for different groups of stuff

Having 50+ tabs in one window always hoping back and forth isn't exactly efficient

[granite wyvern]

Aye. I've got browser windows on the various desktops, with desktop relevant stuff in them. Mostly.

And as of a year or so ago, firefox started remembering what desktop a window was on on restart. So useful.

[subtle coyote]

Guys I've come to a realization that I haven't made anything that I could actually show off 😞
Just some python scripts that do what I need + some 2d games back in day

I feel so bad

[granite wyvern]

A lot of what I do is scripts. Nothing wrong with that.

[charred tusk]

Scripts are great for consistency

[slow rivet]

It took years before I made something that got "popular" a like a year after that for me to start work on a project I actually fully felt proud off and felt is useful.

Being good at programming and being good at ideas is two very different things

[ashen cipher]

guys i've come to a realization that i haven't made anything

[fervent matrix]

What was that project if you don't mind me asking?

[subtle coyote]

You're still young I'm in my 3rd year of university

I've wasted so much time..

[subtle coyote]

It's pinned dude...

[slow rivet]

https://github.com/vivax3794/ComfyUI-Sub-Nodes were the thing that got popular, the stuff in https://github.com/Serpent-Tools is the stuff I'm proud off and currently working on

[slow aspen]

I didn't start until the last 6 months of the university, it's not that difficult honestly to get to a decent understanding of things

[ashen cipher]

pinned where

[subtle coyote]

This ot and I absolutely don't mean to be rude but what does "script kiddie" mean

[subtle coyote]

Their GitHub

[dry garden]

Programming?

[slender urchin]

It's a derogatory term for a wanna be black hat hacker

[subtle coyote]

Oh I see

[ashen cipher]

the type of people who download random shit to ddos some random website

[slow aspen]

Yeah, did I misread the context? Is programming not what we're talking about ?

[dry garden]

I just joined

[ashen cipher]

you could've meant python

[slow aspen]

Wouldn't have made much difference ?

[soft turret]

Why cant i write in my gui? i want to make it like a note if you get what i mean but it doesnt let me write in it

[charred tusk]

You know how people call other people "kid"/"kiddie" when they wanna call them dumb?
The "script" is like "you're so dumb you can only write scripts and not "real" programs"
Or that you only know how to run scripts someone else wrote but not write your own

So its "dumb kid that can't code"

TL;DR: its me

[ashen cipher]

you could've done programming before but not python :p

[dry garden]

What lvl you on now, like a project you made

[runic flower]

I think it's more nuanced than that, it specifically refers to people that don't know how to hack and are just using someone else's hacking tools.

[slow aspen]

Got into a startup recently, our main focus are api standards and specifications, lots to learn we work on openapi i.e. html APIs, grpc, graphql, workflows like arazzo and other stuff

[soft turret]

Can someone answer me

[fervent matrix]

Those do look cool! Rust frontend taking over the web next 👀

[subtle coyote]

Respect

[charred tusk]

Oh hey you've got a whole org now

Getting all official

[slow rivet]

Yeah felt like it was org time

[ashen cipher]

that one (taylor swift i think? i dont know pop artists) is playing in my head

[slow rivet]

Finally got two whole good ideas, got to keep it separate from my dumpster fire of normal repos

[dry garden]

Nice, how many hours/day did you do to reach that

[ashen cipher]

a lot

[dry garden]

Real

[ashen cipher]

maybe not per day

between -1 and 25

[slow aspen]

I haven't really tracked my progress, i spent time learning python and frontend with react, and postgres is all, probably 1 month

The only reason I got into python and webdev was the requirement by the university to build a final year project, I come from an electronics background, so I had to learn this to stream record and showcase the data the electronics were collecting

[dry garden]

Impressive man, I also am learning python's fastapi and postgres, I know javascript too but still haven't learnt a js framework ngl