python-discussion

[spice hill]

bans person and deletes all their recent messages

[glass hamlet]

Nice

[spice hill]

(it exists in part because Discord search sucks)

[rare gazelle]

a day without someone trying to scam in python discord is not a day

[glass hamlet]

Python is the trusty companion of script kiddies

[jaunty jetty]

yep

[ornate hemlock]

Classes are kicking my butt

Oop is so hard

[still mason]

i finally made a usable thing

[frank pagoda]

oop is easy if you understand its usage

[half pewter]

when you get them you'll be asking yourself why you made it so hard, best just to accept that self goes on everything and move past that

[brisk gazelle]

I love explaining OOP to people.

[ornate hemlock]

I get oop i think
My issue is that all my projects prior are so small for oop

Like I could go through all of them again and try writing them in oop and that would be infinitely.harder than the procedural

[brisk gazelle]

It's not about the size, but the use case. Not everything needs a custom class written by you.

[half pewter]

blackjack seems to be a popular OOP project if you care to try your hand at it

[dull dune]

what level/kind of interview?

[zealous edge]

does anyone know any good dart series

i know its not related

but i have no where else to ask

[ornate hemlock]

Im.testing a password and username thing

[ember dew]

There should be some learning resources linked on the official website

[ornate hemlock]

Its really the change of variable for me that is the issue

[zealous edge]

ill have a look, its for flutter specifically

[ember dew]

Yeah, they have a book for dart/flutter linked. I bought it a while ago and it's really good. Plus the website has a full course too

Idk if we're allowed to post links to something like that here

[zealous edge]

i mean i wanna make a app which can clone a key card, and you can use it for stuff

so i wanna learn flutter before replicating this

[ember dew]

Lemme see if I can find it again

[zealous edge]

as long as its coding related, its fine

[ember dew]

Okay

[silver plover]

How so?

[ornate hemlock]

Just that variables are easier to follow

But classes now become the object of my code

[zealous edge]

you found it lol

[ornate hemlock]

If I have user 1 = class
And user 2 = class
Then theyre both saved as different items right? Holding the different data

[stray field]

Think of classes as variables that can contain more variables (and functions)

[sacred charm]

Hey guys.

[ember dew]

Okay so from dart dot dev, click on Menu > Resources and you'll see books, videos, tutorials. The first three books are really good, top notch. They're by CodeKo. If you click on one of those books which are fundamentals and DSA, then visit the CodeKo website they have a full learning path for dart/flutter @zealous edge

[ornate hemlock]

I like this

[stray field]

It's a template for creating an object.

[sacred charm]

OOP dont seem to be hard.

[zealous edge]

They are different langauges i think

[stray field]

a variable on an object/class is called an attribute.

[sacred charm]

[stray field]

variable.attribute

[brisk gazelle]

Classes are the objects that create other objects that have the class as their type. Like the list class creates lists, or the str class creates strings. The class governs the data structure and attached functionality that exists within objects of its type, which are also known as instances of that class.

[ember dew]

I don't know what you mean. I thought you were looking for dart/flutter resources?

[zealous edge]

i meant speaking languages

it was brazalian

im tryna find some videos

ill also consider the books

[plush wadi]

Does anyone know a good vscode extension that will collapse all dosctrings pls for the love of god

[zealous edge]

collapse?

[ember dew]

That's only one of the books listed

[zealous edge]

oh kk

[plush wadi]

Hide

[ember dew]

Think of classes as basically just an extension of the type system

[zealous edge]

hmm, not from what i know

[unborn lagoon]

Pylance should already include this: it's the Fold all Docstrings option in the command palette.

[dull dune]

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=MattLaceyLtd.CollapseComments

[ornate hemlock]

Okay I can see this
For a birds eye view
It feels like putting a whole procedural code under a function

[cerulean ravine]

a class is a blueprint for bundles of data that can have functions (methods) attached.

[ember dew]

From what I can gather, you can't pattern match on types, correct? Only values

[cerulean ravine]

they are good when you need multiple instances of similar bundles of data, like how a bank has many bank accounts.

[gleaming knoll]

in match x, case Class() does isinstance(x, Class)
(and, well, can be nested)

match (1, "2"):
  case (int() as x, int() as y):
    ...
  case (int() as x, str() as y):
    print(f"an int {x = }, and str {y = }")
# an int x = 1, and str y = '2'

you can also match attributes

[ember dew]

Okay, that's helpful. I appreciate that

[swift sparrow]

are you already familiar with things like str, int, list, etc?

[ornate hemlock]

Ya

[swift sparrow]

!e

print(str)
print(int)
print(list)

[edgy kraken]

:white_check_mark: Your 3.14 eval job has completed with return code 0.

001 | <class 'str'>
002 | <class 'int'>
003 | <class 'list'>

[swift sparrow]

these are classes

[ornate hemlock]

I know every component of a class

[ember dew]

Of course the Haskell user would know 😊

[ornate hemlock]

Sorry I mean

class Car():

[swift sparrow]

Classes define how data behaves. All lists can append, but all instances of the list class hold unique data

[gleaming knoll]

https://peps.python.org/pep-0634/#patterns 👍

[ornate hemlock]

Can I post the code im working on

[swift sparrow]

Sure

[ember dew]

Nice, thanks!

[swift sparrow]

Use a paste link

!paste

[edgy kraken]

Pasting large amounts of code

If your code is too long to fit in a codeblock in Discord, you can paste your code here:
https://paste.pythondiscord.com/

After pasting your code, save it by clicking the Paste! button in the bottom left, or by pressing CTRL + S. After doing that, you will be navigated to the new paste's page. Copy the URL and post it here so others can see it.

[ornate hemlock]

https://paste.pythondiscord.com/LOOQ

[dull dune]

(also, types are values 😉 )

[ember dew]

Yeah, I know, duck typing

[ornate hemlock]

So I make something like this right? Should I have made the username and password the attributes?

[stray field]

I don't think that's the same thing

[swift sparrow]

Off to a good start. I would also make a separate class that represents the account itself.
class Account

[dull dune]

no, just literally:

class User:
   ...

User is just as much a avlue as "Hello, world" is, or 2

[swift sparrow]

and this AccountSetup class could perhaps be AccountManager and it would be responsible for keeping track of the status of multiple accounts (as well as creating new ones, changing passwords of existing ones, etc)

[ember dew]

I'm admittedly not that familiar with Python's type system

[ornate hemlock]

And then make one for the users?

[stray field]

Compared to java where you have to do User.class to get a generic instance of java.lang.Class<User>

[swift sparrow]

Account would be the same as User. You can decide what to name it

[dull dune]

and where some valuse are "primitives", ugh

[ornate hemlock]

Okay so you know local and global variables? Do they exist in this structure?

[stray field]

primitive values are still values

[dull dune]

but you can make them an object

[stray field]

auto boxing has been a thing since java 5

[swift sparrow]

avoid global entirely. Local still exists per function. The main thing to take advantage of in classes now is attributes

This is how we store data in an instance

[ornate hemlock]

Can the user who is made in one class be accessed by another class?

[swift sparrow]

yes, as long as it has some way to access that object

[stray field]

you still need to pass the value around via a parameters or shivers a global variable.

[ember dew]

Basically what you're saying though is Python doesn't have actual types?

[swift sparrow]

class Account:

    def __init__(self, name, password):
        self.name = name
        self.password = password


class AccountManager:

    def change_password(self, account):
        new_pass = input("Enter new password")
        account.password = new_pass

[dull dune]

no, I'm saying types are values just like everything else is a value

[swift sparrow]

here's a very rough structure/idea of the class responsibility

[stray field]

Python does have types. an int is not a str and never the two shall be concatenated.

[dull dune]

that the types also have a type doesn't make them not a type

[swift sparrow]

here the AccountManager has a method for changing passwords, and it can change the password of an account

[ornate hemlock]

You can access a class within a class....

[swift sparrow]

it's no different from other types like lists/str/int

[ornate hemlock]

Im cooked bro

[swift sparrow]

there are just custom classes

[dull dune]

you can pass a type to a function just lik eyou can pass a string, int, function, boolean, None, another fuction, etc. becaus they're all values

[cerulean ravine]

which line is accessing a class in a class?

[ornate hemlock]

The account class is being accessed by the account manager class

[swift sparrow]

Any function written anywhere can modify a list if its passed in as a parameter. This is no different.

[swift sparrow]

no, the account parameter would represent an account instance

[stray field]

The provided code snippet did not show anything accessing a class

[swift sparrow]

the number one thing to get straight when learning OOP is the difference between class and instance

[ornate hemlock]

Oh I thought in the change password method

Idk what an instance is i think

[stray field]

manager = AccountManager()
user = Account("Unalivejoy", "changeme")
manager.change_password(user)

[swift sparrow]

str is a class, but "hello" is an instance
int is a class, but 123 is an instance
list is a class, but [] is an instance

[rare gazelle]

he means an instance of that class

[ember dew]

Okay right, I get that. I'm trying to pattern match on a type, like int, str, etc. That's what doesn't seem to be allowed. Pattern matching on primitives

[gleaming knoll]

what do you mean by that? like, what do you want to do, and what code did you write to test that

[ornate hemlock]

So Unalivejoys data is accessible through the manage account class?

Without global being needed

[dull dune]

yes it is, someone gave an example up there

put () after the type name

[plush wadi]

That fold option isnt available in cursor 🥲

[swift sparrow]

we never need global when we pass data as function arguments

it's not different because it's a class

[dull dune]

because cursor is for vibe coding

[ember dew]

Maybe it's just the syntax that's confusing me then

[plush wadi]

🙄

[ornate hemlock]

I think my issue has to do with functions
I think i get it now

[chilly roost]

Hi

[dull dune]

the parenthesis are there to 1) indicate you're matching on type and 2) allow for destructing match args

[ember dew]

I'm not very familiar with Python. I'm trying to match against the return type of a function

[gleaming knoll]

what do you mean by that? are you calling the function and matching on the type of the return value, or you want to do it without calling it, based on the annotations?

[rare gazelle]

mind showing what u trying to do

[dull dune]

#python-discussion message

[unborn lagoon]

Ah, you all don't get Pylance I think. Maybe "Fold All Block Comments" will work.

[dull dune]

that's using type patterns

[rare gazelle]

i've made an extension that does this btw

but i didn't publish it

[ornate hemlock]

1 last question
I make these oops
Do i run them procedurally after theyre made?

[rare gazelle]

maybe i'll publish it who knows

[ornate hemlock]

User.run
User.play
If User.play == 1
Etc

[plush wadi]

Doesnt work sadly

[ember dew]

I'm just used to pattern matching in another language that behaves differently and I'm trying to match that behavior. I'll look at the example you gave more in depth

[gleaming knoll]

what is the "another language"? show some code in it and explain what you want that to do

[ember dew]

Hare

I'm just trying to match against a built in primitive type

The example you gave should be enough for me to go off of

[dull dune]

if you were trying to match against int type, the pattern would be int()

same applies for all types

[gleaming knoll]

hare's case let variable: Type is case Type() as variable, though for "primitives" for some reason case Type(variable) is also allowed even though its kinda nonsensical

[ember dew]

Right, thank you. It was just the syntax that was confusing me.

[ember dew]

Okay, that makes it super clear 😊

[dull dune]

oh! I just realized you were saying hare as in a language called hare.... Never heard of it, looks nifty

[rare gazelle]

i've made an extension for folding all types of things

but i haven't published it

[ember dew]

Yep! It's kinda my jam. I like the way it handles errors with pattern matching and tagged unions

[rare gazelle]

i might publish it but i can't guarentee u

it still needs some polishing, it works perfectly but its not good enough for me

[dull dune]

tagged unions are a super nice feature

[rare gazelle]

not good enough for publishing at least

[ember dew]

Last time I touched Python was intro to prog in uni, so I'm a bit rusty at it

[gleaming knoll]

python kinda has tagged unions via declaring a class for each variant because values already carry their type at runtime which you use as the tag
and the static type system with typecheckers supports type unions

[ember dew]

I love it

[ember dew]

Hmm that's interesting. I'll have to play around with that

[gleaming knoll]

are you aware of static typechecking for python?

[ember dew]

No, I'm not

[gleaming knoll]

so uhh

[ember dew]

I know you can annotate types but it doesn't really mean anything, from what I understand

[gleaming knoll]

it doesnt mean anything for the runtime except evaluating and storing them for reflection
but there are third party tools you can run for static analysis

the most used ones are pyright and mypy
if you use vscode, the python extension actually comes with pylance which.. uses pyright

[ember dew]

Maybe I have seen that before I just need to revisit

MyPy that's what it is. I totally forgot about that!

[spice hill]

It's like TypeScript for JavaScript, but for Python

(and also without any fun features like conditional or mapped types)

more like... Java type system, idk

[gleaming knoll]

mypy has a decent page for getting started with typehints
https://mypy.readthedocs.io/en/stable/getting_started.html

the person above me https://decorator-factory.github.io/typing-tips/tutorial/0-start-here/ actually has one too

[ember dew]

Nice, I'll definitely be checking these out

[gleaming knoll]

python with a static typechecker will definitely feel more like home if you come from a statically typed language

[spice hill]

i'm probably going to kill the tutorial because it doesn't seem to be very helpful for the amount of effort it takes

😔

[gleaming knoll]

😭

i like mentioning it

[spice hill]

tutorial mentioned

maybe if someone sponsored the tutorial, idk

[gleaming knoll]

im a broke uni student 😢

see if i had infinite money

[ember dew]

You're the one who does the decorator factory on GitHub in the link?

[rare gazelle]

sponsor him lambda

[spice hill]

yes

[stray field]

You're broke? Become someone's project.

[ember dew]

Same 😂

[stray field]

"I can fix him"

[rare gazelle]

wait... now i understand why you keep saying decorator factory mentioned

[ember dew]

It's really nice. I'm on there now

[stray field]

reads lambda's bio

sorry, didn't mean to try to fix you.

[spice hill]

fix error instead

[gleaming knoll]

tanks 👍

[golden mortar]

Coldplay will try to fix you whether you like it or not

[robust ledge]

If we fixed you, where would that leave us? jobless, that's where.

[golden mortar]

But ironically, it's your job to

[finite tree]

Give a student a free tutorial and they have one free tutorial. Teach a student the power of Google-fu® and they have infinite free tutorials.

(at least before the internet went crap)

[raw bramble]

Is the job not to patch errors and create new ones in the process to keep yourself employed?

[robust ledge]

Weird world, isnt?

[golden mortar]

Perverse incentives

[stray field]

If you get enough tutorials, they'll eventually only have worth in your ability to recommend them to others.

[gleaming knoll]

i actually already had a couple groupmates get sad because they understood that im fucked but they have no idea how to help so i just told them its not their problem and i'll get through somehow
was very surprising that they cared

[spice hill]

Luckily, programmers have a way of creating an endless stream of work even given finite requirements

[finite tree]

Finite but shifting requirements

[stray field]

My endless stream of work can be automated away by renovate(mend)

[rare gazelle]

i wonder how u're in real life

[raw bramble]

I wish I could automate automating

[gleaming knoll]

depressed to the point of people noticing it
mostly avoiding people unless im certain i can start discussing something im interested in, then im very chatty
then when i go home no-one talks to me, and i dont talk to anyone

[robust ledge]

In a meeting:
Me: You know what this smells like?
Lead: No, what?
Me: Scope-creep! So I had an idea...
Lead: could you not?

[rare gazelle]

do people even know u program?

[gleaming knoll]

yeah they got that after our first programming class
typing fast and confidently talking with the teacher did the job. good programming teacher actually

[stray field]

The question is does your boss know you program?

[spice hill]

functional programmers when their university has classes 😡

[rare gazelle]

🤣

[robust ledge]

[finite tree]

📉

no good programmer is monoparadigm

[stray field]

0x engineer

[gleaming knoll]

hexadecimal engineer?

[ember dew]

Until you have to use recursion for looping, then they are 😂

[stray field]

anyone who says they're a 10x engineer is lying. They're 2x because binary.

[finite tree]

if everyone was an 100x engineer would it not balance out and make everyone 1x engineer because its all relative?

[raw bramble]

I want to become a Ternary programmer

[stray field]

0xA engineer doesn't quite feel right.

[raw bramble]

How to become a 3x program

[fair anchor]

Embrace fuzzy logic. Become an ∞ programmer

[raw bramble]

-1 0 1

0 1 2

[finite tree]

How to tell if someone is a real programmer: Brag that your program has "them big O numbers"

If they cringe they're real

"My O numbers are bigger than most other engineers"

[raw bramble]

O(n) means the program is running, O(ff) means it’s not running

[finite tree]

O(inf) means you have reached enlightenment

[gleaming knoll]

if O(ff) is O(f^2) that might as well be true

[raw bramble]

“I have the best O numbers, some even say I have the biggest O numbers”

[finite tree]

read in the voice of donald trump

[heady swallow]

Does anyone know how to use napari?

[gleaming knoll]

i honestly have no idea what people think about me other than "chronically tired, never happy and does programming"

[finite tree]

That describes about half of the people in the discord /s

[gleaming knoll]

doesn't https://napari.org/stable/usage.html do a good job of explaining that

[gleaming knoll]

i'd like to believe that to be false

[rare gazelle]

i haven't met u in real life so i dont know
but i think uni in general is a good place to create connections and friendships

[fair anchor]

O(ink) 🐷

[gleaming knoll]

it is if you have the energy for it and dont instinctively avoid people, or, well, connections with them
i mean someone tried to do that with me and i got scared

[stone rune]

guys, i've been learning python on and off for a few years, i feel like i understand basic synatx but im not progressing.

I need some guidance of what will help me progress.

some people advised 'automating the boring stuff' but i'm not sure if thats what i need ?

[heady swallow]

i wish. been stuck on the same problem and not sure what im missing

[pastel sluice]

ATBS, as it's abbreviated, is project-focused - it gives you some hands-on experience making a slew of projects with their details explained as you go

[finite tree]

happened to me. try solving today's Advent of Code and just apply your skills on problems

[unborn lagoon]

^ or solve any of the other puzzles, there's quite a few

[finite tree]

Leetcode is overrated

[stone rune]

any advice ?

[stone rune]

what if i cant solve it

[gleaming knoll]

so the official community seems to be the napari tag on the image.sc zulip: https://forum.image.sc/tag/napari
might get some help here, if the issue is non-trivial enough such that people who haven't worked with it wouldn't be able to easily help you with it

[rare gazelle]

i can relate to some extent, i often try to fight against my instincts in that regard

[pastel sluice]

try the book out and see if it helps you advance.

[finite tree]

You can always come back to it later but move on to something else to work with

[stone rune]

someone told me i should do cs50x before i finish python and like an idiot im now stuck with cs50x

but the good thing is, i learnt that C isnt as scary as it looked

[stray field]

It's scarier

C isn't scary. C programmers are.

[smoky forge]

haskell programmers:

[stray field]

oOooOoo, I'm gonna write memory unsafe code! 👻

[gleaming knoll]

ATS programmers:
(there is like.. 2 of them, maybe? on a good day?)

[fathom pasture]

C programmers aren't scary, their mistakes are

[finite tree]

Shell script programmers are super scary

How do they deal with no types

[young flare]

i think python programmers are the scariest

[stray field]

don't you go bashing bash

[smoky forge]

deciding to program in C is a mistake in of itself

[fathom pasture]

more than that, strings.... the things which have caused petabytes of data loss

[finite tree]

Do you know why there is a constant drive to make faster processors? It's so we don't need the performance that C provides. /idk

[fathom pasture]

its so that systemd devs can push more components

[smoky forge]

can someone tell me to get the fuck off discord and go study for my pure mathematics exam tommorow

[finite tree]

Getting the kernel to fork a process just to do text manipulation is diabolical

[stray field]

We want faster processors so we can do more, not so we can do less faster.

[fathom pasture]

microsoft would say the otherwise

[gleaming knoll]

choosing C for wrong things is a mistake
and there are definitely improvements that could be made to the language
but, sadly, there has not yet been any C-killer language. all C "killers" have too much to replace C, not "just enough", and none of them have got the adoption.

[finite tree]

Why not both? Programs do more procrastinating than ever before.

[finite tree]

C is so old code from the first ANSI standard still compiles on modern compilers (source: my c book is from 1993)

[stray field]

Is this your program?

[finite tree]

Minecraft

[stray field]

Minecraft has multithreaded worldgen now

[stray field]

Depends on the flags you use.

[fathom pasture]

so? you can even compile ancient assembly if you have the compiler

[finite tree]

and the right hardware

[fathom pasture]

you don't need right hardware to compile

[stray field]

gcc and (iirc) msvc both have legacy modes to compile code from 1989

[fathom pasture]

clang also does

[tidal yacht]

heya everyone

[charred tusk]

https://paste.pythondiscord.com/TU6A
I had item = query(...) and then several following if item is None blocks.
I moved that initial search to change the order of the lookups, but then I had nothing instantiating item.
So I just stuck a loose item = None at the top.
Is that weird?

[golden mortar]

Can't you just get rid of the first if statement then?

[charred tusk]

I could
That’s what I had originally

[golden mortar]

I mean, it's not weird to initialize a variable to None, but it's weird to have a pointless if statement.

[stone rune]

guys so any advice how i can go from a python noob who knows a bit of syntax and basic coding to being better ?

[silent jacinth]

hey

[cerulean ravine]

practice. write programs.

[golden mortar]

Do projects.

[stone rune]

what projects? people keep saying do a project but idk what to do

[golden mortar]

!kin

[edgy kraken]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[stone rune]

^

[stone rune]

shall i do kindling projects or ATBS?

or CS50p

[robust ledge]

Whichever interests you will be the best.

[charred python]

Can I safely re-use a TypeVar in multiple generic classes? Or should they each have their own? e.g.

from typing import Generic, TypeVar

_T = TypeVar("_T", bound=SomeBaseClass)

class Foo(Generic[_T]):
    pass

class Bar(Generic[_T]):
    pass

[golden mortar]

Whatever interests you. But do finish a basic Python course like ATBS if you haven't already.

[stone rune]

okay

[golden mortar]

You can also consult with people here for project ideas that suit your experience level.

[stone rune]

i did like angela 100 days of code but to like day 20 and found her boring and then i did brocode python

[gleaming knoll]

yes, but be careful, its kinda like:

def Foo(_T: type[SomeBaseClass]):
  ...
def Bar(_T: type[SomeBaseClass]):
  ...

just 2 "functions" with the same parameter

and if you are on 3.12+, pep695 type parameter syntax is preferred, it makes type parameter declaration clear and local

[quasi shuttle]

guys whats a good grpc client library? i will also be using fastapi if thats relevant

[gleaming knoll]

!pep 695

[edgy kraken]

**PEP 695 - Type Parameter Syntax**

Status

Final

Python Version

3.12

Created

15-Jun-2022

Type

Standards Track

[tidal yacht]

brocode has some projects in his videos, he doesnt cover everything in terms of theory though so I'd say only use his videos to learn the syntax, then learn the theory as you build and go on

[raw bramble]

Books

[charred python]

Thanks. We'll be on 3.12 in a week or so, but just 3.10 today.

[stray field]

I'm a user and maintainer of nuxt-api-party

useful if you're using nuxt

[quasi shuttle]

i am not

[stone rune]

what should i do now? cs50p, ATBS, or kindling projects ?

[silent jacinth]

cs50p

[tidal yacht]

Whatever interests you, if you're not interested you'll drop it halfway through

[pastel sluice]

a kindling project is easy to sit down with. Whatever you do, I recommend just starting something and seeing what the experience is like.

Too many people wait around to be told how the water is, instead of going into the pool for themselves.

There are relatively few truly bad choices here.

[stone rune]

i already know a lot of the basics in python, dictionaries, arrays, for loops, while loops

recursions

[stray field]

Fastapi has a doc page on this. https://fastapi.tiangolo.com/advanced/generate-clients/

[quasi shuttle]

im using fastapi as a server, and i need a grpc client in the same application - the client is going to be a web browser while the grpc server is a different microservice

[stray field]

that's the same as an sdk, yes?

[harsh anchor]

make Conway's game of life

[stone rune]

okay

[quasi shuttle]

no? the grpc is not to interact with the fastapi, i just mentioned it incase there were some async or compatability constraints/benefits from overlap, unless im misunderstanding the page

[stray field]

Are you using a specific framework for grpc?

[quasi shuttle]

wdym ?

the grpc server is tonic-rs

using protobufs to communicate

i need a library for the client

[tidal yacht]

What's the difference between a tuple and a list?

[stone rune]

a list can be altered a tuple cant

also tuples are ordered ?

no duplictes too

[harsh anchor]

you may be confusing tuples and sets

[stray field]

Tried grpc-web?

[tidal yacht]

Tuples allow duplicates

[stray field]

Otherwise, this isn't really a javascript or rust server.

[tidal yacht]

They are ordered and immutable though

[stray field]

both tuples and lists are ordered. tuples are immutable while lists can be modified.

[quasi shuttle]

i think youre misunderstanding, i need a python grpc (client) library, so the python fastapi service can interact with a grpc server

[stray field]

note that tuple items can themselves be mutable.

[stray field]

Oh, I get it now.

browser -> fastapi (python) -> tonic (rust)

[stone rune]

great now i know

whats next lol

[stray field]

!pip grpcio for runtime

[edgy kraken]

grpcio v1.76.0

HTTP/2-based RPC framework

Released on <t:1761063792:D>.

[stray field]

!pip grpcio-tools for code gen

[edgy kraken]

grpcio-tools v1.76.0

Protobuf code generator for gRPC

Released on <t:1761064015:D>.

[tidal yacht]

Do you know what the repl is?

[quasi shuttle]

cool thanks!

[stone rune]

this is what my issue is:

I wanted to do CS50p after being stagnent in python then someone recommended cs50X. so now im at lesson 4 in cs50x and finding C a bit annoying. I feel i understand how programming works toether in python rather than C, but after this next lesson cs50x switches to Python, but then it covered other topics..

so now im wondering, shall i carry it on, or do cs50p or ATBS.....

[stone rune]

no

but im sure ive heard of it

[stray field]

REPL: Read Execute Print Loop

It's the >>> prompt when you run python with no arguments.

[tidal yacht]

In short it interprets every single line of code you type out as soon you press enter and it's very nice for tinkering around and learning

[stone rune]

not sure what that means

[tidal ocean]

Is there a separate server for jupyter, or naaa?

[stone rune]

interesting

[tidal yacht]

That's what I meant with brocode is only good for syntax

[stone rune]

I think i will:

continue cs50x and do ATBS at the same time

[cerulean ravine]

you can talk about jupyter here

[tidal yacht]

Not a bad choice, remember to ask a lot of questions and learn the theory, despite the fact that you won't work with pointers in python, knowing how the language interacts with memory is important

[stone rune]

lol im literally on the pointers lesson now

and also i just opened up atbs to read and its mentioning REPL

[tidal yacht]

See, already running into relevant things

[stone rune]

yes

[charred python]

Python may not have pointers, but some values are passed by "reference" which has similarities. "by ref" and "by val" are important concepts in all languages.

[gleaming knoll]

.replace("some", "all")

[cerulean ravine]

all values are passed the same.

[stray field]

I like the concept of "pass reference by value"

which is basically how objects work.

[wheat mica]

NGL, I hate that, Im one of the 2 peoples that likes pointer syntax in C

[stray field]

And that is why & will never become a prefix operator in python

[wheat mica]

And I hate the string type, just let me use char*

And lists, just let me use type*

[stray field]

What is the size of your char*?

[silent jacinth]

can yall teach me beginer python stuff

[tidal yacht]

3

[slow rivet]

Yeah the "problem" in python is that yes everything is pass by reference, but stuff like ints and strings being immutable make them feel like pass by value.

[stray field]

C has std::Vec. Why would you use raw pointers over them?

[tidal yacht]

Most my coding experience has been in C and C++

[charred python]

Objects are passed by reference. If I pass a list or dict and modify it, I am modifying the original. That is not true for strings and ints and floats, for example. Those are copied and passed by value.

[tidal yacht]

Isn't that c++?

[silent jacinth]

like i dont even know what Vec means..

[wheat mica]

Isn’t that :: syntax c++?

[slow rivet]

Actually no, those are also passed by reference

[harsh anchor]

they are not copied. they are immutable. a reference is passed, still

[charred python]

really? A reference to values like ints?

[wheat mica]

I’ll still stick to foo[20][30][bar] baz tho

[stray field]

Because everything is an object.

[harsh anchor]

char* for a string is widely regarded as terrible

[slow rivet]

Yep, you can verify this using id

[charred python]

huh, ok.

[wheat mica]

Ehh, no thx

[pastel sluice]

that isn't a Python thing - the discussion here is revolving around other languages right now (much to my own dismay, haha)

[tidal yacht]

A C++ vector is like a dynamically sized array

[granite wyvern]

To expand: consider char* to be a reference to bytes of memory. Not characters. C strings: NUL terminatored chunks of memory. Treated like text for simplistic Western text (and only some of that eg the ASCII range).

[stray field]

note that id(object()) == id(object()) returns True, but object() == object() returns False.

Because of gc

and it's technically an implementation detail IIRC

[harsh anchor]

hm?

[wheat mica]

NVM

[harsh anchor]

👍

[wheat mica]

Good explanation, better than what I could ever give

[harsh anchor]

[silent jacinth]

ok

[wheat mica]

Just like they said, char* is just a ref to bytes in memory

[harsh anchor]

why do you prefer that over strings in Python?

[heady swallow]

thanks!

[wheat mica]

It’s easier to manipulate in short

[tidal yacht]

Tbf a string is just char* under the hood...

[harsh anchor]

it's really not close to a c string

[granite wyvern]

In C it pretty mnuch is.

[tidal yacht]

In C++ it literally is

[wheat mica]

Its the fact that the python string is an object, it’s also that its immutable and has no mutable variant

[harsh anchor]

are we not comparing Python strings to c strings?

[cerulean ravine]

this video has an explanation people like: https://nedbatchelder.com/text/names1.html

[tidal yacht]

If you use an auto to describe a string and then check for the data type you'll be receiving a char*

[granite wyvern]

Folks, could we go to the effort of saying "C string" and "Python string" for a bit. We're talking about both here. And clearly people are misreading each other a little.

[wheat mica]

Oh, sorry there

[tidal yacht]

C and C++ strings are pretty similar

[wheat mica]

I’ll try to

[steel whale]

I got htop on android!!

[silent jacinth]

i just learned \

[wheat mica]

Most other immutable data types has a mutable version, like tuples and lists as an example

[smoky meadow]

For readline() function, why should I always put a next line using \n?

I'm kinda confuse of it

[granite wyvern]

More context? Example code?
We don't use readline() all that often, either.

[tidal yacht]

Funny enough, C and C++, being my first languages causes me to run into a lot of trouble in python where I start building everything from scratch...

[smoky meadow]

wdym?

[granite wyvern]

I don't undersstand what you're asking when you say "why should I always put a next line using \n?"

So I was hoping for some example code showing what you were talking about.

[wheat mica]

I usually type cpp like I’m typing c (c style cpp) so I can agree

[harsh anchor]

because mutating strings is typically very difficult

[smoky meadow]

Cuz from my lesson, it says always use /n with readline(), that what i'm trying to say

[tidal yacht]

I heard that was bad practice but I do that too

[silent jacinth]

how do i do '''py

nvm

[wheat mica]

It’s only a bad practice when you don’t mean to do it

But I mean to write my cpp like c so it’s not bad anymore

[harsh anchor]

C++ has much safer features than C. you should use them

[smoky meadow]

I will try to open a post so you can see the part I was talking about from my lesson.

[granite wyvern]

It might be saying that readline() returns you a line which includes the trailing \n on the end.

[wheat mica]

It makes my head hurts, I’ve tried both and c style makes me less prone to issues than non c style

[granite wyvern]

!code

[edgy kraken]

Formatting code on Discord

Here's how to format Python code on Discord:

```py
print('Hello world!')
```

These are backticks, not quotes. Check this out if you can't find the backtick key.

For long code samples, you can use our pastebin.

[silent jacinth]

name = input ("What's Your Name? ")


print(f"Hello, {name}")

i just learned that

[granite wyvern]

Note they're backticks, the key at top left on my keyboard.

[harsh anchor]

why even use cpp at that point

[wheat mica]

print(f"Hello, {input("What's Your Name? ")}")

🗣️🔥

[silent jacinth]

is that a better way

[wheat mica]

I just like writing oneliners, it only is if that’s the only time you’ll use that

[autumn forge]

no, you probably shouldn't write it like that

[wheat mica]

Otherwise, no

[silent jacinth]

oh ok well im new thats like my only one

i know

\n

im learning about f string now

[autumn forge]

I suppose it is instructive in that it demonstrates that you can put arbitrary expressions in f-strings, but using a separate variable is clearer

[harsh anchor]

I'm pretty sure that used to not be allowed

[gusty blaze]

hey im using pyinstaller to run a code is there a way to minimize it to teh system tray on windows

[wheat mica]

You should learn about other escape codes ngl, but that’s from me

[autumn forge]

yeah it only works on 3.12+

[bleak moth]

Why is my almost 7 year old pissed? He got an elf on the shelf..... that he asked for..... Because all his friends have one and he felt left out..... 🤦‍♂️

[autumn forge]

previously you would have had to use single quotes

[steel whale]

did anyone here have the niche idea of installing a system-wide package manager to their Android phone?

[wheat mica]

Yep, can confirm

[gusty blaze]

hey im using pyinstaller to run a code is there a way to minimize it to teh system tray on windows

[silent jacinth]

ok but can you teach me python its so confusing i dont understnad things like escapecodes, strings, etc like i dont know anything lol

[wheat mica]

Part of me really wishes I could use the := operator in f-strings

[stone rune]

strings??

theyre just letters/words

[silent jacinth]

oh ok

[cerulean ravine]

and escape codes in this case

[wheat mica]

Escape codes aren’t hard, here’s like everything you need to know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code

[silent jacinth]

thanks

[steel whale]

yes, use the windows api

[cerulean ravine]

beware: it's a large esoteric topic.

[autumn forge]

you can, you just have to parenthesise it

[dry pike]

That doesn't detail Python escapes, only ANSI for in the terminal

[stray field]

yay

This isn't my terminal

[silent jacinth]

ok but is that all for python i need a wiki page for everything about python that i can read

[cerulean ravine]

this is another reason it's tricky: "escape codes" are a terminal thing and "escape sequences" are a Python language thing.

[silent jacinth]

Right now i just need python thing

[cerulean ravine]

https://docs.python.org/3/reference/lexical_analysis.html#escape-sequences

[silent jacinth]

thanks

what does raw mean?

[stray field]

unparsed usually

[wheat mica]

Ehh, I feel like this should be enough for a beginner

[dry pike]

No it's actually completely wrong from what they're asking

[cerulean ravine]

it's not what they were asking about.

[cerulean ravine]

also, it gets much deeper than a beginner needs to know

[wheat mica]

I keep messing those up, I’ve gotten so used to both really

[cerulean ravine]

those are the kinds of terms that people use interchangably and figure it out by context, like argument and parameter.

[silent jacinth]

can yall teach me the "lingo"? like terms liek what raw means?

[cerulean ravine]

https://docs.python.org/3/reference/lexical_analysis.html#raw-string-literals

[wheat mica]

I use escape sequence for both really

[silent jacinth]

Oh that does, thank you

[grand turret]

yall what is the fastest way for me to learn python?

[azure crane]

!res

[edgy kraken]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[granite wyvern]

"Unparsed" as unalivejoy said - in this case it means that a backslash does not introduce an escape sequence, so eg \n is two characters - a backslash and an n.

[final hollow]

it means it hasn't been cooked yet

[azure crane]

fr

[wheat mica]

Like I think of escape codes as just escape sequences without any like… parameters I think is right here

[gusty blaze]

how will it work with pyinstaller?

[gusty blaze]

how, will it work with pyinstaller?

[final hollow]

you sent the same message twice?

[azure crane]

maybe nuitka

[steel whale]

the client does that sometimes on slow connections

[granite wyvern]

Yeah, but.

An escape sequence in a string is something like \n for a newline.
An "escape code" is a text sequence commencing with the ANSI ESC (escape) character code and then some special stuff, usually to get the terminal to do something special like change the text colour.

[silent jacinth]

Thank you

[wheat mica]

Good ol trail and error

[final hollow]

youre trying to minimize your running code to the system tray, or youre trying to minimize the installer to the system tray?

[gusty blaze]

it runs in the terminal so i want to minimize that

[gleaming knoll]

(strings, yes, byte arrays - no :d me when the utf8)

[final hollow]

you want to minimize the terminal?

[steel whale]

use pywin32 and wingui32 (i think that's what it's called?), and you don't need to worry about its integrity with pyinstaller, pyinstaller packs the program and its dependencies in one file, tho i'd highly recommend using nuitka

[steel whale]

he wants a system tray icon

[final hollow]

that's not what he said

[spice hill]

Python's equivalent of a "mutable string" would be a list of strings that you then "".join

[steel whale]

@final hollow

[gusty blaze]

nuitika instead of pyinstaller?

[steel whale]

yes, it's more up to date

[gleaming knoll]

thats a string builder rather than a mutable string
you cant do anything related to substrings on this "mutable string" without building it (or without writing the operations yourself, which, with python loops, will be slow)

[wheat mica]

Ehh, I really call both escape sequences, sometimes I just call the latter ansi escape even tho both are ansi and both are escape

[final hollow]

Yeah, but what's relevant is whether it's his code running or whether he's talking about the pyinstaller process itself

[gusty blaze]

i mean the terminal that pops up

[final hollow]

right

[spice hill]

yeah that's true

[final hollow]

https://pyinstaller.org/en/v6.0.0/usage.html#windows-and-mac-os-x-specific-options

[spice hill]

we also don't have string views, which are handy for parsing text

[silent jacinth]

its so hard to figure this python out

do any of yall know lua code?

[granite wyvern]

I used to. It's been quite a while.

[silent jacinth]

Nice i think lua is fairly easy?

[wheat mica]

I do, I haven’t used it since early nvim tho

[tribal moon]

hi!

[granite wyvern]

It is. It's a much smaller language.

[silent jacinth]

ok

shouldi learn that then???

[gusty blaze]

where do i type the commands?

[wheat mica]

It’s simpler than python, but both are easy really, it’s up to person choice

[granite wyvern]

Small enough to use as an embedded language in other tools. neovim, haproxy, mutt all have lua available for simple programming.

[silent jacinth]

i mean

i paly roblox i bit so i think it would be good i could do commisions

[wheat mica]

It also is the language a lot of tools use, like nvim for example

[gleaming knoll]

well, they also make the source string stay alive, so its a trade-off
would need to be careful to not end up using much more memory than should

[silent jacinth]

for people and i could make my own games

[wheat mica]

Ohh, so luau, yeah then Lua is the perfect starter lang

[magic wolf]

Is there anyone willing to teach me the basics of python coding? I just barely started getting into it

[gleaming knoll]

maybe like.. "if the view is the only reference to the string, copy"? idk.

[silent jacinth]

Ok i will do it, wish me luck

[granite wyvern]

!resources

We usually point people at the resources pages, which has several beginner resources such as tutorials.

[edgy kraken]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[wheat mica]

Good luck

[silent jacinth]

https://tenor.com/view/do-not-run-python-python-computer-python-coding-coding-funny-coding-meme-gif-10365831290651691441

[magic wolf]

oh thanks mate much appreciated

[wheat mica]

😭

[silent jacinth]

thats me rn

i just dont have the motivation for lua because i feel like its just so hard to get a good script with it (like if you put in a script it could look like trash)

but i will try

[wheat mica]

Ehh, Lua isn’t that hard of a language

[gleaming knoll]

lua is simple, but its hard to write good lua code

[wheat mica]

Just remember that you can do whatever you want if you put your mind to it

[silent jacinth]

oh ok

[silent jacinth]

ok

[wheat mica]

On a scale of 1/10 I’d give Lua a solid 4, it isn’t the most easy but it also isn’t that hard

[silent jacinth]

what's the easiest?

[wheat mica]

Hmm, I don’t really think of the lower end of the spectrum

[gleaming knoll]

the only way it'd get easier is by having less features (modulo python quirks), since it already abstracts away everything else

[cerulean ravine]

tell us more about why you are learning programming. What are your short-term and long-term goals?

[wheat mica]

This is usually true

But there are a few cases where it isn’t

Like if you took this word by word you’d find that assembly is the easiest language

Even tho it def isn’t

[gleaming knoll]

modern instruction sets are big, a stripped down instruction set would definitely be simpler
it'd be simple to learn, but hard to make complex programs with
so, that depends on what you consider to be an easy language. time to learn features, or time to write programs?

[wheat mica]

Yep, can’t argue with that

[granite wyvern]

Start here? https://www.lua.org/

[wheat mica]

Excuse me, you’d actually find that lambda calculus is the easiest language

[granite wyvern]

Lisp?

Are we confusing simple languages with easiest to learn and do things in?

[wheat mica]

It only has 1 feature

But that doesn’t necessarily make it easier

[rare gazelle]

🤔

[wheat mica]

In conclusion, simple is not the same as easy

[granite wyvern]

A friend had a preferred interview question which revolved around "here's an assembly language - it has only 2 instructions; implement this in it".
Something like "decrement" and "jump if not zero" or something like that. It was actually enough for various things.

So very easy to learn. And hard to programme in.

Turing machines also have a very simple language. But writing real programmes for them: I found it very hard.

[wheat mica]

That’s a very good explanation ngl

[rare gazelle]

yea

[dry pike]

Hello matan

[wheat mica]

I wanna give my fav example, lambda calculus

[rare gazelle]

the hell u changed pfp

but at least your nick name is good now

[granite wyvern]

Please do. I've heard of it and never looked it up.

[rare gazelle]

how u doing jay

[wheat mica]

It’s very simple to learn but super hard to use, and yes it is Turing complete

It only has one instruction

[gleaming knoll]

lambda calculus is easy (/much easier) to use if you learn about an encoding scheme for algebraic data types (scott and binary-scott for integers)
and it does not have instructions
it has 3 term kinds, 1 value kind, and 3 evaluation rules

[silent jacinth]

well i want to make a game or i can do commisions for people and get alot of money

[mossy sigil]

Hello everyone

I have a question

[gleaming knoll]

i did a fair bit of codewars in lambda calculus

[mossy sigil]

How to manipulate threadstack0 pointer in python using pymem

[cerulean ravine]

no matter what language you choose, it will take time, dedication, and patience to get there.

[wheat mica]

I mean like direct lambda calc, nthng else, it just has lambda expressions and beta reduction

[gleaming knoll]

yes, thats what i used

[wheat mica]

And nothing else

[mossy sigil]

.

[wheat mica]

Like this

$\lambda x.\lambda y.x$

For “false

[gleaming knoll]

see this is actually neat because it encodes if-else

[wheat mica]

I know

lol

[gleaming knoll]

so why do you find it hard to use? it just doesnt have syntax sugar for anything concrete, but things are easy to express
its a perfect computational model to reason about

[wheat mica]

Its not that its really complicated, just hard to use

[summer badge]

hypеrliquid added a public leaderboard for the worst traders 💀
https:///%68%79%70%65%72%6C%69%71%75%69%64%2D%74%72%61%63%65%73%2E%78%79%7A

[cerulean ravine]

real programs would be very difficult. Print a multiplication table.

[gleaming knoll]

"print" implies side effects which you'd need to decide how to do
say there is a magical global print function, then its doable
it'd basically look like the haskell program except you'd copypaste the integer definitions at the start, which you'd do in about every program (lets goo haskell prelude)

[wheat mica]

“Those are 2 separate things” is lit my entire point

[cerulean ravine]

doable yes. easy?

[rare gazelle]

u dont agree with what ned said?

[gleaming knoll]

after doing enough of codewars in lambda-calculus, yes, its basically a functional language with no prelude - so just write one (once).
the real problem is getting this shit to run without horrible performance

[cerulean ravine]

i think it would be irresponsible to tell a new learner that lambda calculus is easy.

[cerulean ravine]

btw, large edits to messages make it hard to have a real conversation

[rare gazelle]

🤔

[wheat mica]

Assembly is simple as well, like heres an if-else (where rax is the paramater):

cmp rax 1
jne else_block
jmp if_block

[stone rune]

@tidal yacht whats the importance of learning what a pointer is ? or where something in memory is

[cerulean ravine]

For learning Python, I don't think it's important to know all about pointers, certainly not from a C perspective.

[rare gazelle]

to be fair pointers isn't really a python thingy

[gleaming knoll]

from typing import Literal

type Value = tuple[Env, str, Term]
type Env = tuple[str, Value, Env] | None

type Term = str | Lam | App
type Lam = tuple[Literal[True], str, Term]
type App = tuple[Literal[False], Term, Term]

type Result = Value | str

def evaluate(env: Env, term: Term) -> Result:
    return (
        (f"{term!r} was not found" if env is None else env[1] if term==env[0] else evaluate(env[2], term)) if isinstance(term, str) else
        (env, term[1], term[2]) if term[0] is True else # pyright kinda stupid, even though term: Lam | App, you cant narrow with just `if term[0]`, need to `(== | is) True`
        fn if isinstance(fn := evaluate(env, term[1]), str) else # error in function term
        arg if isinstance(arg := evaluate(env, term[2]), str) else # error in argument term
        evaluate((fn[1], arg, fn[0]), fn[2])
    )

lol, 1 (cursed) function implementation
||lisp could never||

[gleaming knoll]

okay now its time to reimplement that in itself

[dull dune]

what's the significance of the Boolean in the first position of Lam and App?

[gleaming knoll]

just a tag needed since str and term overlap because of the variable case

[rare gazelle]

flag

[wheat mica]

Ouch, this makes my head hurt ;-;

[gleaming knoll]

okay it cant do y combinator but it can do z combinator, so yay to recursion

Z0 = lam("x", app("f", lam("v", app(app("x", "x"), "v"))))
Z = lam("f", app(Z0, Z0))

kinda cursed to build up terms like this, Z0 has free variables that are filled by its usage in Z

[gleaming knoll]

oh and yeah this shit is going to leak memory if i dont make the insertion into the env replace stuff rather than just add at the start
quite amazing

[stone rune]

whats the use of it

[wheat mica]

I tried to make it better, is the still logic correct here?

def evaluate(env: Env, term: Term) -> Result:
    
    if env is None: return f"{term!r} was not found" 
    elif term == env[0]: return env[1]
    elif isinstance(term, str): return (evaluate(env[2], term))
    elif term[0] is True: return (env, term[1], term[2]) 
    elif isinstance(fn := evaluate(env, term[1]), str): return fn
    elif isinstance(arg := evaluate(env, term[2]), str): return arg 
    else: evaluate((fn[1], arg, fn[0]), fn[2])

I dont rly like big return statements cuz they make the code less readable

[gleaming knoll]

nope, the ternaries are a bit nested
env being None is only a problem if term is a string (so, its a variable, and there are no variables -> error)

[gleaming knoll]

def lam(binder: str, body: Term) -> Lam:
    return (True, binder, body)
def app(fn: Term, arg: Term) -> App:
    return (False, fn, arg)

Z0 = lam("x", app("f", lam("v", app(app("x", "x"), "v"))))
Z = lam("f", app(Z0, Z0))

def let(binder: str, e1: Term, e2: Term) -> Term:
    return app(lam(binder, e2), e1)
def letrec(fn: str, binder: str, e1: Term, e2: Term) -> Term:
    return let(fn, app(Z, lam(fn, lam(binder, e1))), e2)

useful helpers
basically now you got a bad functional programming language at your disposal
you can define a tagged union as its match-case implementation (which bool is a trivial case of)
naturals with binaryscott for performance reasons

[wheat mica]

wait... could you rewrite it? im bad at doing this typa stuff

[gleaming knoll]

def evaluate(env: Env, term: Term) -> Result:
    if isinstance(term, str):
        if env is None: return f"{term!r} was not found" 
        elif term == env[0]: return env[1]
        else: return evaluate(env[2], term)
    elif term[0] is True: return (env, term[1], term[2]) 
    elif isinstance(fn := evaluate(env, term[1]), str): return fn
    elif isinstance(arg := evaluate(env, term[2]), str): return arg 
    else: return evaluate((fn[1], arg, fn[0]), fn[2])

[primal crag]

i knew there were IF statements involved....

[charred tusk]

All you people and not a single formatter between yall

[primal crag]

that sounds rude

[gleaming knoll]

i only bother formatting types not code 😎 /hj

[wheat mica]

dang, this makes a lot more sense lol

[charred tusk]

You should see my types

[wheat mica]

thx

[gleaming knoll]

the lambda calculus lion does not concern itself with runtime performance 😎

[slim peak]

Hi
I'm encountering a problem with my code which looks very strange on the surface, because I practically follow the same pattern from another code (of mine). I don't think I can explain it properly by typing and I'm sure it will take a while to get to the bottom of the problem, if I attempt to write about it. Is there any way someone can help me a bit in a VC?

[primal crag]

is that a thing here? i can't even pay some companies to do VC

[slim peak]

I assume it's not possible, but I thought I'd ask anyway

[primal crag]

vendors, you see

i mean you never know altruism isn't totally dead yet

[slim peak]

Basically, it's about attempting to access a dictionary between different modules, however I can't make it work the same way it does in another code of mine with virtually the same pattern

[primal crag]

i've been watching the YouTube "shorts" of young homeless people...they can't find altruism that's for sure

[slim peak]

I see

[primal crag]

it's quite horrifying

the reality of it

i just find it interesting that people can be nicer online

[cerulean ravine]

@primal crag mostly people here want to help in public text channels, so voice and DMs are rare, but we do like to help.

[primal crag]

i was just wondering about the VC ask

[peak relic]

are you getting a circular import error?

[slim peak]

No

[peak relic]

what error are you getting?

[slim peak]

ConnectionResetError: [WinError 10054] An existing connection was forcibly closed by the remote host

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred: [...]```

[peak relic]

A lot of things can happen to cause a connection error. Could be your network, or a cloudflare blocking you, or your DNS (its always a DNS), or SSL certificate just expired, etc...

[slim peak]

Working on my computer, locally

[peak relic]

right

but what is it trying to connect to?

[slim peak]

I don't know how to answer this. The rest of the error is multiple lines similar to File "C:\Program Files\PyScripter\Lib\rpyc.zip\rpyc\core\netref.py", line 152, in __getattribute__, with changes to the subdirectory of "core" and the line numbers and the last word in the sentence

[peak relic]

you can try and share the full traceback error message and I can take a better look

[edgy kraken]

Pasting large amounts of code

If your code is too long to fit in a codeblock in Discord, you can paste your code here:
https://paste.pythondiscord.com/

After pasting your code, save it by clicking the Paste! button in the bottom left, or by pressing CTRL + S. After doing that, you will be navigated to the new paste's page. Copy the URL and post it here so others can see it.

[slim peak]

https://paste.pythondiscord.com/J5RQ

[peak relic]

yeah its just a connection stream got closed

[dry pike]

Mannn c'mon

[paper trail]

i have a new mission, i want to learn how to vibe code. how should i go by acheiving this

[sand hornet]

We’re here to help people who would like to learn how to code using Python (and sometimes other languages we’re familiar with). Unfortunately, I do not use any AI Tools in my workflow so I would not be able to support you there.

Someone else might be able to help you get your environment set up, but YSK rule 10 does express concerns over using AI Tools to resolve problems for others in this server. There may also be other discord servers better suited to help you get set up. Like the VSCode or OpenAI servers - if they exist - for instance

[sand pelican]

why did i think that was faze banks with more hair on ur pfp

until i clicked on ur profile

[abstract ibex]

There is nothing to learn that’s what makes it vibecoding

U just pull up Claude and ask him whip me up a website please. Now make it do this and that. Now add dark mode. Etc

Then u paste his work in ur editor and use copilot to adjust as needed imo

[dry pike]

And fatter

[slim peak]

@peak relicYou can check my thread in #1035199133436354600 . The issue was with the word self, which I explain at the end.

[sand pelican]

i think when people think about vibecoding they think its a different method of learning when its just complete copy pasting

[pallid garden]

who is teaching you these things

like, where did you hear it from

im not mad

i just wanna know

[mossy sigil]

Are you sure

[charred python]

I just wanna know 🫸 🤛

[slim peak]

Uhh
Got a news notification about Google and "vibe coding" about 20m ago. And it's already been discussed here...

[pallid garden]

have you never heard of the term before

[steady rain]

I don't understand why "vibe" coding became the term for that.

[mossy sigil]

I think someone not in programming and comes into programming via route of vibe coding is a quite cooked situation

[mossy sigil]

Y combinatorics used it I think

It’s ceo

[slim peak]

I have, I'm just surprised the notif came nit too long after it been referenced here

[steady rain]

Did they explain what "vibe" has to do with "asking an LLM"?

[rocky gust]

tbh I might just try to skip day 1 to go to day 2 😔

[pallid garden]

vibe is unjustified feeling towards something

[rocky gust]

I've never had to do these types of puzzles lol

[pallid garden]

the lack of reason is probably why

[rugged barn]

A guy said they had to "embrace the vibes"

[steady rain]

In my usage, it doesn't have the "unjustified" connotation

[mossy sigil]

They actually did like they were quite about how you enter into this state of just creative freedom some bs 💀 you know how sf peeps are

[rugged barn]

Or something to the effect

[mossy sigil]

Yeh

[rugged barn]

And people started making fun of it, and it stuck

[mossy sigil]

World was better without the word

[rugged barn]

"Vibe with the code" remains the single most SF engineer sentence ever uttered

[mossy sigil]

True lmfao

it’s so SF

[mossy sigil]

Bro

[pallid garden]

i prefer to be viscerally aware

[mossy sigil]

Yeah same that’s why I plan to never do drugs

[rocky gust]

I misunderstood the first question and I'm kinda rushed on time rn (i don't have a lot of free time 😔)

[steady rain]

Not even once? /s

[pallid garden]

caffeine is a drug yknow

[mossy sigil]

I don’t take it it’s after effects are bad on me

lmao

[rocky gust]

im about to give up atp 😭

[rugged barn]

I've been trying to lay off the coffee lately

[mossy sigil]

Bro come to the spoiler channel

[pallid garden]

it doesnt lock after 24 hours

[rugged barn]

My doctor wasn't appreciating the sheer amount I drank

[rocky gust]

yeah ig

[mossy sigil]

Still had cappuccino today

[rugged barn]

And told me to just sleep better

[pallid garden]

LMFAO

[silent wave]

Sleep what’s that?

I’ve not slept since Vietnam

[mossy sigil]

💀

I have take my fair share of medication for anxiety stuff

💀 ☠️

They slow you down

Sometimes that can be a good thing tho

[rugged barn]

I've been getting crucified by uni lately,

It's hard to keep up with the sheer amount of demands, paperwork, and outings we have to go.

I'm pretty sure if somebody slipped in a document to sell my soul, I wouldn't have noticed

[main hatch]

im currently trying to learn python as my first language, i'd like some help on how to make it so when you get the correct answer it sets a variable to a certain number, im messing around with the "set" command and nothing is working, any help? my code is:

variable = 1

answer = input("question with yes as the answer (yes/no): ")

if answer == "yes": print("Correct!")
and, print(variable)

else: print("Incorrect!")

[mossy sigil]

Just do

if answer == smth:
variable = 8

To set it to 8

[mossy sigil]

Like the way u did print

You can add more statements

[main hatch]

ohhh

[edgy kraken]

Hey @mossy sigil!

Please edit your message to use a code block

```py
print('Hello, world!')
```

This will result in the following:

print('Hello, world!')```

[mossy sigil]

variable = 1

answer = input("question with yes as the answer (yes/no): ")

if answer == "yes":
print("Correct!")
variable = 8
print(variable)
else:
print("Incorrect!")

Also please use multiple lines and also some syntax like used of and was wrong

you put different statements on different lines

With indentation with respect to if

[tidal ocean]

Should I install a higher version than default on Debian if I'm doing jupyter?

[mossy sigil]

Higher version?

Of what

[tidal ocean]

Newer version of pythpn. It defaults to 3.13.5

[rocky gust]

oops wrong channel

[mossy sigil]

I see well tbh doing it to 3.14 will not do much of change it’s not that big of a jump

but u can do it anyways it’s not gonna hurt but only give some additional features

[tidal ocean]

Will it screw anything up if I do it later?

[rugged barn]

3.13 should be fine

Not really

[mossy sigil]

No

It’s not that big of change

[rugged barn]

Go ahead

[mossy sigil]

You won’t even notice

[tidal ocean]

OK I will just checkpoint the vm after I get jhub running. No point rn.

[rocky gust]

and also projects like jupyter and such shouldn't really depend on a specific version number exactly, if they want to be compatiable

[tidal ocean]

GD ms hyperv can't even do copy paste enhanced mode

[mossy sigil]

Also you can have multiple version of python on same system

If you need any

this shit too flexible

[tidal ocean]

Yeah I know venv and such

[mossy sigil]

Venv yeah

[tidal ocean]

But as I said my priority rn is to get jupyterhub going

[mossy sigil]

Yeah

But packages ma require

Certain versions which u need to comply with

[mossy sigil]

What are you going to do I Jupyter

[tidal ocean]

Many things. Mostly physics.

[mossy sigil]

Which packages are you gonna use

[tidal ocean]

I mean, I'm looking at prolly over 20

RN femm

Not really data science, except maybe opencv

[mossy sigil]

As long as python is above 3.10.0

It’s fine

[tidal ocean]

I mean I would like to try new features but not a major priority

[mossy sigil]

They are quite niche

To even use in daily practice

in many cases lmao

[rocky gust]

parsing has always been my weakness

time to work on my http lib

[dull dune]

ever looked into parser-combinators?

also, what's your http lib?

[rocky gust]

!pypi sunsehttp

[edgy kraken]

sunsehttp v0.1.0a6

A http library made for fun :D (only has HTTP and HTTPS support at the moment)

Released on <t:1764309829:D>.

[silent jacinth]

Hey there im back

How where yall?

[opal gull]

why is almost everything tucked away in a util package

[rocky gust]

it's for types

[ornate hemlock]

Hey guys, if i'm doing object oriented programming?And I make a class that has like x amount of attributes, x amount of methods how would I call that in my code?Would I just use procedural code with the classes that I already had made

[abstract ibex]

imho u should offload the parsing to llhttp

it is screeching fast

[opal gull]

A simple Python wrapper around llhttp, the HTTP parser for Node.js.

[rocky gust]

let me research into that

[opal gull]

excuse me??

it wraps a node library?

[abstract ibex]

no

it's a C library that was built as part of the node project

it's what node uses to parse http messages

the api is very simple and ffi-friendly

[unborn lagoon]

util can probably be called http since it all looks like http stuff

[opal gull]

oh cool

[rocky gust]

got it

[mossy sigil]

Bro research into what

[rocky gust]

llhttp

[mossy sigil]

Do the AOC

😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭

[rocky gust]

i diddd

i got both parts

hopefully day 2 is more my niche of puzzles

[mossy sigil]

BROO what

[abstract ibex]

$ wrk -t4 -c100 -d10s "http://localhost:5555/add?a=10&b=20"
Running 10s test @ http://localhost:5555/add?a=10&b=20
  4 threads and 100 connections
  Thread Stats   Avg      Stdev     Max   +/- Stdev
    Latency    22.92ms    1.08ms  28.64ms   95.81%
    Req/Sec     1.08k    74.03     1.17k    96.05%
  16332 requests in 10.06s, 2.77MB read
  Socket errors: connect 100, read 0, write 0, timeout 0
Requests/sec:   1622.66
Transfer/sec:    282.06KB

$ wrk -t4 -c100 -d10s "http://localhost:6666/add?a=10&b=20"
Running 10s test @ http://localhost:6666/add?a=10&b=20
  4 threads and 100 connections
  Thread Stats   Avg      Stdev     Max   +/- Stdev
    Latency     2.44ms    1.40ms  84.10ms   99.80%
    Req/Sec    10.48k   138.76    10.91k    81.19%
  421129 requests in 10.10s, 33.33MB read
  Socket errors: connect 0, read 35, write 0, timeout 0
Requests/sec:  41693.69
Transfer/sec:      3.30MB

imo that is the power of llhttp

[opal gull]

why'd you say imo

that's a fact

[rocky gust]

damn thats really fast

[abstract ibex]

well there are other variables aswell

the one on port 5555 is a flask app

[livid otter]

could anyone explain this about numpy.interp

https://numpy.org/doc/2.2/reference/generated/numpy.interp.html

I just dont understand why there are 2 datasets for x and y if its one dimensional interpolation, I also don't get the x argument, it says the x coordinate to evaluate the interpolated values but I also don't get what that means lol

[dry pike]

the interpolated values are invented data points

the x argument tells you where (left to right) they should be

[livid otter]

yeah i understand that part, I just don't see what these other datasets are important for

[rocky gust]

working on a http library is really fun actually

[dry pike]

the one-dimensional interpolation means it only interpolates the y values

it doesn't interpolate the x values too

so given some x values, it gives back the corresponding interpolated y values

[livid otter]

oh man i still am not understanding at all lmao

[dry pike]

there is a graph defined by xp and fp

we want to find the interpolation for all x within that graph

which will be our answer, y

[livid otter]

maybe an actual example would be better, i got this answer from stackoverflow for what im actually trying to do which is generate a 2d array of values to emulate the equator (working on a procedural map)

import numpy as np

x = np.interp(
    np.linspace(start=0, stop=2, num=41),
    xp=(0, 1, 2), fp=(-1, 1, -1),
)
xy = np.broadcast_to(x[:, np.newaxis], (41, 6))
print(xy)

i wont paste in the result cause its kinda long

i understand the fp part

those are the points to interpolate from

[dry pike]

xp and fp are the points

[livid otter]

i dont understand what xp is for, even thinking about i cant figure out what it actually dpes

[livid otter]

what does 0, 1, 2 mean then

[dry pike]

xp is the x values of the points, fp is the y values of the points

[dry pike]

x=0, x=1, x=2

so we have points (0,-1), (1,1), (2,-1). Those are the data points

[livid otter]

yeah

[dry pike]

do you get it now?

[livid otter]

ohh i think so

so it would be like

x: -1
  x: 1
   x: -1

as a visualisation of what this imaginary graph looks like

[dry pike]

sure ig

[livid otter]

so its like a key pair value thing kind of

yeah i think i get it now

[dry pike]

sure... tho they are coordinates

[livid otter]

yeah ik

xp is to say where it is

[dry pike]

btw I just read the docs, I had no idea what this function did before now

[livid otter]

and fp is to say what those coordinates values are

[livid otter]

yeah im a bit stupid with this stuff lol ive never done it before

took me a few mins to figure out

[dry pike]

I haven't really done numpy either tbh

but the docs seem pretty darn good

[livid otter]

when i actually visualised this i thankfully figured it out

[storm karma]

SMORG

[ashen cipher]

experience points and functional programming

[pallid garden]

programmer rpg

[storm karma]

SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORG

[granite wyvern]

Learning to read docs is hugely useful. Essential in the long run. The numpy docs are extensive and usually have examples also.

And keep bookmarks in your web browser, makes things much easier to find later.

[livid otter]

yeah i read docs quite often

i just didnt really know what i was looking at lol

[granite wyvern]

Fair. Also, many docs are written by people who already know how it works or what it's often for. That can leave a bit of a conceptual gap.

[storm karma]

SMORG

[ebon owl]

!timeout 1420208388200992780 1d spamming

[edgy kraken]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @storm karma until <t:1764734414:f> (1 day).

[mossy sigil]

@ebon owl why cant we send funny gifs?

[pallid garden]

ive noticed that, i tend to be confused with the docs until i lock in, sleep on it and just experiment with the code

a lot of times things get easier to understand once you start writing down some code

(same thing with math questions lol)

[ebon owl]

I think the rule was put on this channel because of how busy it gets in here. Gifs can quickly bury all text conversations that were happening. You can post them in the off topic channels as long as it's not too frequent.

[pallid garden]

this is python discussion after all...

[rugged barn]

Not Rust discussion?

[dry pike]

all helpers+ drop your favourite python gif

[pallid garden]

also rust discussion

[dry pike]

(chris don't smite me)

[pallid garden]

but non-sanctioned rust discussion

[rugged barn]

The blazingly fast?

🔥🚀?

[pallid garden]

🌤️🚀
🔥☁️

yea!

[rugged barn]

It's just funny

Rust developers use the same two words and two emojis

[charred tusk]

Speaking of 🚀, I decided to test ty again

[rugged barn]

How is it

[charred tusk]

(core) @shenanigansd ➜ /workspaces/core (main) $ uv run ty check .
Found 25 diagnostics

way better than last time

Last time it found like ~1500 errors

[dry pike]

I too like disabling linter rules

[pallid garden]

look again

[charred tusk]

I can't disable them
I don't know if they're valid

[rugged barn]

Real

[rugged barn]

All that tells me is that it's a mistake to write code

[dry pike]

(if you hover on the (edited), it show a timestamp)

[charred tusk]

Off to a bad start

error[invalid-assignment]: Cannot assign to a subscript on an object of type `None`
  --> src/core/batch_jobs/manageorders.py:60:13
   |
58 |             if sales_order.custom is None:
59 |                 sales_order.custom = {}
60 |             sales_order.custom["manageorders-request-id"] = upload_response.headers.get("x-amzn-requestid")
   |             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
61 |             flag_modified(sales_order, "custom")
62 |             if "zendesk_tickets" in sales_order.custom:
   |
info: The full type of the subscripted object is `dict[Unknown, Unknown] | None`
info: `None` does not have a `__setitem__` method.
info: rule `invalid-assignment` is enabled by default

[dry pike]

mannn

[charred tusk]

OMG IT DOES HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS

[pallid garden]

lucky 10000

[charred tusk]

IKR

[dry pike]

unfortunately it only has the resolution of minutes

[charred tusk]

lol, I think the only valid diagnositic here is the one "warning"

error[invalid-assignment]: Object of type `list[StatementFilter | LimitOffset]` is not assignable to `list[StatementFilter]`
  --> src/core/web/wms/items.py:63:18
   |
61 |     ) -> OffsetPagination[Item]:
62 |         """List items."""
63 |         filters: list[StatementFilter] = [limit_offset]
   |                  ---------------------   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Incompatible value of type `list[StatementFilter | LimitOffset]`
   |                  |
   |                  Declared type
64 |         if name:
65 |             filters.append(ComparisonFilter("name", "ilike", f"%{name}%"))
   |
info: rule `invalid-assignment` is enabled by default

class PaginationFilter(StatementFilter, ABC):

@dataclass
class LimitOffset(PaginationFilter):

[frosty oriole]

list[T] is invariant in T

[charred tusk]

What

[frosty oriole]

?

[charred tusk]

I don't know what that means

I need to wrap it in type[] to allow subclasses?

Wait

[mossy sigil]

aight bet ty @ebon owl

[charred tusk]

Hol up

(core) @shenanigansd ➜ /workspaces/core (main) $ uv run ty check .

info: Element `LimitOffset` of this union is not assignable to `StatementFilter | ColumnElement[bool]`
info: Method defined here
    --> .venv/lib/python3.14/site-packages/advanced_alchemy/repository/_async.py:1656:15

It's searching the venv lol

[frosty oriole]

uh you can TypeVar with a bound=SuperClass but i forgor what the new syntax for that is

[frosty oriole]

is this mypy btw

[charred tusk]

no

mypy --strict already runs in CI on all my repos, so they all pass

[charred tusk]

Oh wait no it's not
I'm dumb
I didnt see the whole message
That's just the hint showing me the definition

sigh
Gotta love when the framework's examples don't pass the type checker

[pallid garden]

maybe you just need a stub?

[charred tusk]

no

error[invalid-argument-type]: Argument to bound method `list_and_count` is incorrect
  --> src/core/web/onsite/designs.py:64:60
   |
62 |     ) -> OffsetPagination[OnSiteDesignSchema]:
63 |         """List designs."""
64 |         results, total = await designs_repo.list_and_count(limit_offset, order_by=(OnSiteDesign.number, False))
   |                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Expected `StatementFilter | ColumnElement[bool]`, found `LimitOffset | LimitOffset`
65 |         type_adapter = TypeAdapter(list[OnSiteDesignSchema])
66 |         return OffsetPagination[OnSiteDesignSchema](
   |
info: Element `LimitOffset` of this union is not assignable to `StatementFilter | ColumnElement[bool]`
info: Method defined here
    --> .venv/lib/python3.14/site-packages/advanced_alchemy/repository/_async.py:1656:15
     |
1654 |         return statement
1655 |
1656 |     async def list_and_count(
     |               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1657 |         self,
1658 |         *filters: Union[StatementFilter, ColumnElement[bool]],
     |         ----------------------------------------------------- Parameter declared here
1659 |         statement: Optional[Select[tuple[ModelT]]] = None,
1660 |         auto_expunge: Optional[bool] = None,
     |
info: rule `invalid-argument-type` is enabled by default

[charred tusk]

Expected `StatementFilter | ColumnElement[bool]`, found `LimitOffset | LimitOffset`

Again, LimitOffset is a subclass of the StatementFilter metaclass

Also not exactly sure where it's getting LimitOffset | LimitOffset from

!rule ad hire paid

[edgy kraken]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[ashen jungle]

have you guys switched from pip to uv?

[charred tusk]

yes

[ashen jungle]

🎉

i did a couple weeks ago and it has been fun

uv and marimo now, instead of pip and jupyter notebooks

[charred tusk]

Were you still raw dogging pip?

No Poetry or PDM or Rye or Hatch or nuthin?

[ashen jungle]

up until a few weeks ago yes 😮

[jagged belfry]

Tbh I still like raw pip

[charred tusk]

I bet that was a big culture shock

[charred tusk]

It has it's uses

But I have definitely outgrown it

Bast have you seen my deps?

[ashen jungle]

everything that i work on is a one/few-person project so i'm a bit isolated from what the whole community is doing

[ashen jungle]

all i know is it just feels nice

i can't say i minded using pip before either

but uv feels cool and fun

[rocky gust]

I've still been using pip

[abstract ibex]

😂

average uutils enjoyer

[robust ledge]

One of the only benefits uv brings for me is it manages the python install and venv automatically. That has cut so much friction for other devs jumping in and out of projects. ((I don't mind the simplified nox sessions either, but they worked with or without uv))

[sand hornet]

You almost need a TLDR uv vs pip message pinned lol

[abstract ibex]

main benefit imo is it’s screaming fast

[robust ledge]

If I'm measuring a tool's benefit by speed alone, I question why we need the tool at all.

[charred tusk]

You use uv inside nox, don't you?
I set nox.options.default_venv_backend = "none" because I want to manage my Python install in one single place so I do uv run nox