slate cargo
I've been playing some Ger/Fin Discard lately and oh well... the deck is horrendously bad right now...
But it doesn't have to be!
Hear me out...
What if we changed the wording on 169. Grenadiers to read "The enemy discards a card at random when giving an order", so that it's effect resolves immediately?
That way you’d be able to get at least some value out of it, even if it’s taken out the turn after it comes into play (e.g., by Extended Barrage).
lusty bramble
I'm pretty sure this has already been brought up some time ago, but I'm all for it. That guy is completely useless.
still swallow
Oh wow I always assumed it was when, this guy sucks
granite ore
it should always have to be like that, the devs truly make it a garbage unit by trying to hold on its power
light cedar
I agree, it's unplayable as is but that would make it playable
crimson summit
Please no 🙏
crimson summit
I agree, it's unplayable as is but that would make it playable
calling this unplayable is simply untrue
jade raven
The conditions this card needs to meet to actually become a win con are not great. And if you wanna use it as a grip on your enemy you also need a significant amount of setup. For a game that is so fast-paced, not my cup of tea as it stands. I support the buff
vivid scarab
discard should not be a wincon imo
and, this guy is not completely useless. If the enemy spends removal getting rid of this card, than it is because it was a sufficient threat
I mean, this card and most other fancy German discard units are so game-breakingly punishing if the enemy does not have removal for them, making it really hard to balance them in the first place
granite ore
I mean, on one hand I'll completely agree with you, making discard a wincon is pretty disgusting for obvious reasons, but there are so many ways that you can effectively get rid of this card that are not only with orders it just makes it a bad joke at this point, and if we follow the logic of "if it was removed it completed it purpose" can also be applied to similar cards that are even worse but likewise a "removal magnet".
this card purpose should be to effectively counter decks that rely too much on chain order spam or shut down those that rely too much on them, in this form it makes it redundant.
vivid scarab
this card purpose should be to effectively counter decks that rely too much on c...
I mean, this card does sorta counter those exact decks. If they're consistently dealing with this card, then I don't think the issue is 169. grenadiers. I think the issue is either the german deck not putting enough pressure to make them use their resources, or the ability to remove/suppress is too cheap or too prevalent in the current game state
granite ore
thats why it should trigger at the exact same moment, not after
atleast once would be good enough
vivid scarab
nah, this sounds like nonsense German main crying man
granite ore
what? your argument is that a main player cannot complain about a card that should seemingly be good (considering its rarity and concept) is not valid at all?
vivid scarab
Consider this: Is this card worse than KV-1 1939? If so, by how much? Or, how playable would KV-1 be in this current meta?
granite ore
KV-1 1939 is pretty good and will still held up pretty well because it atleast does something immediately
sure it is also removal magnet, but it does something
vivid scarab
Is 2 dmg really worth it? And, is an almost guaranteed discard as valuable as 2 dmg?
granite ore
you've just said it, an "almost" guaranteed discard versus 2dmg per trigger that you can also control yourself with other cards
and its not like nowadays removal is exclusive to orders, let alone uncommon
vivid scarab
so the buff doesn't even matter then? That's your argument?
granite ore
the buff matters, you are saying that in this current version it is far beter than KV-1 1939 which is more flexible and faster in its outcome
vivid scarab
I am not arguing that current 169. grenadiers is better than KV-1. I am arguing that the card does not have the ability to be competitive in the same way that KV-1 would not be competitive right now. It's not competitive because it's a very passive removal-magnet in an environment with plenty of suppress and removal.
granite ore
ok.... and why not buffing it then?
vivid scarab
In addition, buffing the 169. grenadiers to be closer to guaranteed value does not solve the core issue, but only makes it more toxic.
KV-1's guaranteed effect is 2 dmg. That is nowhere near as powerful as an almost guaranteed discard.If you want to argue that almost isn't good enough, then the buff doesn't matter.
granite ore
you are literally saying the same I did before, there are so many options (besides orders) that is not powerful enough to be relevant
KV-1 1939 is not a discard effect sure, but it still a consistent burn effect that can trigger atleast once per turn through all battle
and gain, there are plenty of ways you can make the enemy draw cards to make it deal even more damage
slate cargo
I’m outside atm, I’ll reply to some of these messages when I’m home. Just want to say rq - i think KV is a bad comparison. For KV you have the option to run synergistic cards to force draw in order to squeeze more damage, but you can’t do the same for 169. Grens, like you can’t force your opp to play orders. The overall comparison.. you can’t compare the value of a discarded card to X amounts of damage IMO
granite ore
yeah, the only way you can effectively make the opponent "force play orders" is with RESISTANCE, but that combo sucks given how inconsistent it is
vivid scarab
I'll sum up my arguments for the last time:
slate cargo
I'll sum up my arguments for the last time:
1. Discard should not be a win con....
Totally agree with 1 & 4, i do have to say though… an elite should provide a little more value than just “oh my opp went -1 to remove it”. That’s literally all I’m asking for.
granite ore
countergument:
1- Never said it should be a wincon but ok. A guaranteed discard is literally what it should have been from the start and will just flow within the current meta given the vast diversity of removals, while also encourage more unit vs unit combat/interactions.
2- As I've said before, you can say the same thing with other cards that are "scary", but that doesn't make them that useful, hell you can use that argument with B-17 FLYING FORTRESS as one of many.
3- Thats the point, it is a passive card that should shutdown atleast one portion of the orders around
4- How would you make it harder to remove? higher health? order/target immunity?
it only needs its passive to be better, hell it could also have its defense/stats reduced if you want it to not be that oppressive
and more accesible to destroy in general while being better at its original intended role
tidal field
despite this thread getting a lot of likes, I think community in general would hate seeing this guy get a buff
(I can already imagine some salty posts at reddit or somewhere)
pure nova
Discard has a big issue of being always like 1-2 cards away from everyone hating it
169 was done the way it was because specifically it's miserable if it always 2 for 1 people
jade raven
sure it is also removal magnet, but it does something
2dmg guaranteed btw
jade raven
Is 2 dmg really worth it? And, is an almost guaranteed discard as valuable as 2 ...
Discard is priced at 2k, 2dmg is priced at 1k. Arguably, discard is more expensive by design
jade raven
Discard has a big issue of being always like 1-2 cards away from everyone hating...
I'm notorious for optimizing discard strategies
formal bay
I’m all for discard buffs and I love this idea but I do wonder if the people agreeing with this understand the implications of this buff lol
jade raven
Just increase the cost, it's not that complicated
light cedar
Britain has some almost guaranteed "card advantage" cards like MI5 and Queen's Own. But they only happen once. Maybe they should change 169 to "when" but also say it can only happen once?
pure nova
Britain has some almost guaranteed "card advantage" cards like MI5 and Queen's O...
The problem is that discard is a deck that has this "critical mass" of discard that causes problems when reached
Every discard that is consistently added builds towards that mass
And people absolutely hate discard when it reaches that point
If people remember think back to like case yellow pre nerf
That was a card that went 2 for 1 with discard and it had to die
vivid scarab
dude, imagine old case yellow with 106th, that would be disgusting 
jade raven
The problem with case yellow was the damage. 4k discard and draw would be perfectly fine
granite ore
1 damage was that much of an issue? or the +1 attack buff?
jade raven
1 damage was that much of an issue? or the +1 attack buff?
The 1 damage, because you could tec to kill a card, draw a card and discard. It was way too much advantage
pure nova
The 1 damage was not what made case yellow get nerfed
It would not have meaningfully changed case yellow
Hence it got a bigger nerf by losing the draw
frail relic
I've been playing some Ger/Fin Discard lately and oh well... the deck is horrend...
I literally suggested this 💔
granite ore
oh but you see but you see, your nametag doesn't have a fancy colour besides the regular orange lmao
lost cloak
oh but you see but you see, your nametag doesn't have a fancy colour besides the...
If you hold a high position, you can say the most ridiculous things and people will still applaud you
slate cargo
I literally suggested this 💔
I did check the most recent suggestion posts, but couldn't find a dedicated 169. Grens post, so I created this one.
Consider yourself a co-author of this post then! 
granite ore
(cries in megapost suggestions)
slate cargo
(cries in megapost suggestions)
Yah, I've seen yours, dw!
But...
Mega-post =/= dedicated post
slate cargo
If you hold a high position, you can say the most ridiculous things and people w...
HARD X... trust me, I've been slaughtered (as a senior mod) for sharing some hot takes in the past.
granite ore
interesting lore we are discovering here lol
granite ore
Yah, I've seen yours, dw! <:hug:985990061214535760>
But...
Mega-post =/= dedica...
yeah... thats the issue with that post in particular, every suggestion is dedicated like this one, the issue comes with how it is presented, that probably is not as attrative to read around.
hollow bough
This card still fun in ger/fra but yeah too expensive for never getting value in every other deck
crystal acorn
This card has single handedly won me some games, and caused even more to just surrender.
Any buff to it would be amazing. As is, I love it. It baits out hard removal that I otherwise wouldn't want to hit my # 1 and 2 win cons. If they don't hard remove it right away, it punishes the opponents hard.
Haven't even mentioned duplicating it.
And with a 5/6 body, it doesn't easily get removed on turn 5.
sweet coral
Can we just add „cannot be targeted by orders.“ and keep its current text?
tidal field
Can we just add „cannot be targeted by orders.“ and keep its current text?
no
just imagine public's reaction to that
bet they would torch 1939's studio for that
eager yoke
Can we just add „cannot be targeted by orders.“ and keep its current text?
I have though about it, but without "one per turn" it is scarily strong, mate. So the unit can get "cannot be targeted by one orders" and same text with additional "one per turn" if possible.
granite ore
just making the effect a one time guaranteed thing before it being either Suppressed or destroyed is enough for its passive effect
making it an absolute order wrecker is too much
crystal acorn
Just add the "When" and its good. That way it fires off one discard after being targeted.
limpid pewter
no
just imagine public's reaction to that
id like it
indigo lodge
Moderator wants to # End the world # Ignite wars
crystal acorn
Now that I've started playing against rank 5 competition, it's more clear to me that the "when" delegation is needed here.
civic jungle
This card activates immediately.
Even if removed by an ability, it is removed after 1 damage is taken. But why is the ability judgment worse on Elite Cards? If it appears only once per match, it must have performance commensurate with that.
crimson summit
Because taking 1 damage to the HQ is one of the most minor effects in the game, whereas discarding a card is one of the most major
Wild discord formatting lol
lusty bramble
too late, the people have spoken
civic jungle
I said this because it seemed like it was being countered too easily by low-tier cards. After reading the post, it seems that balance is difficult to achieve..
tidal field
for a effect like this, it's healthier for the game as a whole for it to be underpowered than overpowered
granite ore
then it has no reason to exists to begin with
indigo lodge
just give it blitz bro
pure nova
then it has no reason to exists to begin with
There are many reasons a card can exist beyond is it good or not
crimson summit
Also for the record, people who are saying this card is bad are wrong IMO
Popular ≠ good and current archetype strength in the meta ≠ good when talking about individual cards
pure nova
Discard is very often about critical mass
If discard was meta I would bet this is a core part of such a deck
granite ore
There are many reasons a card can exist beyond is it good or not
beeing filler is a reasonable option I suppose, or a wildcard trap/waste investment
pure nova
beeing filler is a reasonable option I suppose, or a wildcard trap/waste investm...
there are much better purposes then that
Although the filler does sometimes happen
It can be:
granite ore
so basically a card that servers no other purpose than being played very rarely just to test decks or playstyles useless ina ny other real circumstances even outside of meta
in a few words, filler/trash
granite ore
being a tech ≠ filler
I mean no, tech cards can be definitely be used in certain contexts given that some can truly give you good outcomes and synergies, but that logic is definitely not applicable to all filler/trash cards, objectively speaking.
say for example "SPEARHEAD", on a quick look it seems terrible as you are sacrificing units to get value and losing board presence, but it is far more flexible than what it seems like.
limpid pewter
say for example "SPEARHEAD", on a quick look it seems terrible as you are sacrif...
probably more usable now with rout lol
granite ore
exactly (and it was still usable before)
now with ROUTED TROOPS (and many other Token units) it ends up an excellent tech card
pure nova
in a few words, filler/trash
If you really want to strawman then yes? Just because you don't get the purpose doesn't mean that purpose doesn't have it's place
Kartofel being a perfect example as spearhead is objectively trash but someone finds enjoyment in it. By your metrics it's a trash card and shouldn't exist but then another would not have a card they enjoy playing with
Power level is entirely relative anyway so aiming to make every card good is just not possible in a game like kards
As much as you might try it won't ever happen because something will always rise to the top
granite ore
By my metrics? I already stated that while still a quite complex card to use as your everyday order it can definitely be useful if used correctly as a burst card, raising its potential use and power accordingly, thus not making it a trash card at all.
On the other hand, your logic of "power is relative" is easily debunked by the fact that there is definitely a preference for the community in using certain decks and cards, either for fun, quicker/easier wins or being dominant all together. Having a mediocre mindset of leaving everything as it is because "something always comes to the top" will definitely stall the game and some nations diversity in playstyles, both in competitive and casual games.
jade raven
so basically a card that servers no other purpose than being played very rarely ...
The only use I've seen for it was in resistance decks, in which case it becomes extremely toxic
pure nova
By my metrics? I already stated that while still a quite complex card to use as ...
Spearhead is "a card that servers no other purpose than being played very rarely just to test decks or playstyles useless ina ny other real circumstances even outside of meta"
Hence it's filler trash because that is exactly what spearhead is. A bad card that is used for the memes and nothing more
It hasn't so much as even been considered in any meta deck within it's entire existence to my knowledge
granite ore
but it is still usable and powerful even though it is a "meme" card
and who knows? as it is reserved we are not sure if it might not be a really good card within todays meta
as it'll definitely will have room of action
lusty bramble
best case scenario for this dude probably
pure nova
but it is still usable and powerful even though it is a "meme" card
So what you said above is just entirely not the stance you take?
because I literally said a card can be a fun meme card/something to mess around and try out with and your response was just "so just trash filler"
granite ore
for the great majority of bad cards yes, but in this case its power comes around its viability to targets and context, which to be fair right it would be the perfect time to do so
at that point won't be a "meme"
but even so it is a good card, not like others
pure nova
And how is that not applicable to many other bad cards? How do you know we are just in the wrong meta for something to become good? Because up to this point those bad cards have just been bad
granite ore
lets come with a simple example from many bad cards, is PLAN D good? was it ever good? does it excel in what others do in a similar matter?
pure nova
Well in the right meta it could be good
granite ore
and why not using BLITZKRIEG then for the damage then? why not WE CAN DO IT! for the healing and defense? or 15th ENGINEERS for also damage and Ramp?
it literally sucks
it does everything in a worse way
pure nova
Because different nations?
granite ore
probably, but that doesn't excuse it for being bad
pure nova
and blitzkreig is frontline only
and we can do it can't buff attack
lusty bramble
guys, this is simply about this not excelling in performing as a discard niche card
granite ore
are you running a supportline deck with it?
pure nova
Within France it's the only board wide buff they have so there is a niche it fills
granite ore
and blitzkreig is frontline only
and we can do it can't buff attack
thats why I specificaly said it was for defense and healing
pure nova
other nations will do it better sure
But different nations can be better at things then others
lusty bramble
Within France it's the only board wide buff they have so there is a niche it fil...
France also has the shuffle buff dude
pure nova
Right I did forgor that one
even then Plan D is generic where as the shuffle is archetype specific
lusty bramble
yeah, but how many times have you seen Plan D in any deck?
granite ore
not even a meme/fun deck will run any of those
pure nova
I'm not saying Plan D is a good card even
Because it obviously isn't
pure nova
not even a meme/fun deck will run any of those
I've no lie seen people playing it in an arty deck
with the French 75 after that got changed
granite ore
yeah the FRENCH 75 got a pretty good buff
pure nova
Well it ain't meta so it's still filler right?
granite ore
nope, it is a good starter card now
basically a cheaper somua
why not run it in a cheap deck?
pure nova
And that's a good reason for a card to exist?
granite ore
yes, there are new players ain't?
pure nova
It can be:
- A fun niche card for a strategy that isn't meta
- A card that asks ...
Meanwhile like all these reasons weren't?
granite ore
and it is a decent card for them
if we talk about the older version sure, it doesn't apply because it sucked
pure nova
and it is a decent card for them
And why not buff it till it's meta? What was stopping the devs from pushing it even further?
green elk
yeah, but how many times have you seen Plan D in any deck?
That one tournament deck
pure nova
Cause then more people woulda used it
granite ore
And why not buff it till it's meta? What was stopping the devs from pushing it e...
now you are just twisting my words, now there is no need for it to be further buffed, it is already in a pretty good spot for its purpose and it does a good job at it, not like PLAN D in comparison
pure nova
Again you were the one arguing that if a card isn't good then it's filler
And you've now argued how 2 cards that don't/didn't work in the meta are fine because they have other purposes
which was what I said in the first place
granite ore
but the cards you mentioning now are good, again they are not bad (and one was buffed, further supporting my idea of giving support to older cards)
pure nova
but the cards you mentioning now are good, again they are not bad (and one was b...
Spearhead was never good nor was it changed
So idk how you could defend it as an acceptable card
And I ain't opposed to buffing old cards if it suits a purpose
Like the French 75 was
But literally you were the one saying that bad cards were just filler even if they were fun meme cards and what not
granite ore
bad cards are filler, and meme cards while fun are still bad, SPEARHEAD is a good meme card, thats the difference I want to make
pure nova
And yet those bad cards can have a purpose
like being a starter card
Or being something that people just mess around with
which that second one is what people have done with Plan D in the past
granite ore
in the far past when it was all a wasteland I bet with few variety and cards sure, what about now?
pure nova
Again I saw plan D played after French 75 was changed when someone was memeing with a French arty deck
So this was within the last little bit
granite ore
and why not instead of making it a bad meme card only used in obscure decks make it slightly better while retaining its original purpose? say making its attack buff permanent
pure nova
If you wanna talk about that you have to look at the work behind that
It simply is not possible to buff every card
the manpower is just not there to do it unless you want to make changes with 0 testing or thought about how it could impact the game
green elk
and why not instead of making it a **bad** meme card only used in obscure decks ...
Juffle eating good with this one
pure nova
Maybe the buff would be fine but maybe it makes Pland D become some issue in a deck that previously wasn't considered
Or maybe it does nothing and the card ends up being just underplayed as now
With dozens of decks and archetypes needing to be handled it's just a lot of work trying to fine tune stuff
You can even see with shit like buffs how even what is currently done often ends up going wrong
Pile more on and you will end up with more buff like situations where something is overlooked and breaks something
Like perfect example is this 169 grenadier
People seem to forget how much discard becomes hated when it's good so any change to this guy would require a lot of work to make sure it's not pushing things to far if a change were to happen
It's not something that can just be slammed into the game because it looks good on paper
granite ore
that logic can also be applied to cards that end up being underpowered or straight up bad, and int his case while it is not a "bad" unit, it ends up being more of a hussle to have, almost nobody has no tools to deal with big units, and this unit purpose is to effectively counter order focused decks/spam.
the least it should is guarantee atleast 1 discard per turn
hell if necessary reduce its defense so it nos not a fortress of a unit to deal with
like say PETLYAKOV Pe-2FT, which blocks off entirely Deployment effects but it is fairly fragile
pure nova
And that would all need to be tested to make sure this isn't enabling to much discard that we see like a German discard deck rise in the meta because that has historically been bad for the game
which eats up resources
and atm German discard isn't exactly a deck that the devs are looking to support
So this change would be on something unlikely to receive more support in the near future
granite ore
thats true as well, checking out how a change behaves before making it official might be tricky, but again that could also be adressed if there were also a feature for a public test where those willing to try could get into.
instead of having a handful of testes and people working on it, those in the community willing to participate into trying those changes could help
the work doesn't need to fall entirely into the dev team
its a game we all enjoy after all
pure nova
and a public test branch also needs a lot of work to get anything out of
It needs to be set up, it needs to be shared with the community, it needs to be monitored by a dev who can interpret the data received
It would require a lot of effort to maintain and there is some benefits tbf
but there is also gonna be a lot of bias because people all want extremely different things from the game
granite ore
basically what we do here aren't we? but in the game
pure nova
for everyone that wants like 169 grenadier buffed there will others calling for it to be nerfed
granite ore
and then there can be a middle ground
pure nova
basically what we do here aren't we? but in the game
yes and it's why the devs don't actively chat in here for the most part
Because people have so many varied stances on things that there is no conensus
So it requires a lot of effort from some dev to actually figure out what results a public beta branch could offer
Plus keep in mind a lot of balance changes also happen in the run up to stuff that the devs would never push to a public beta branch
Namely new expansions that often have some card changes or balance changes setting up for a new mechanic or something
Like back when the KV1 1939 got buffed it was done because the perma pool was in the works
The devs ain't gonna be able to share smth like that to give context behind certain changes
granite ore
thats also true, some changes come with the element of surprise, something which a test version might kill in some way
tidal field
lets come with a simple example from many bad cards, is PLAN D good? was it ever...
I think some tournament Shuffle decks used 1 copy
Shuffle is generically more aggresive deck that's locked to Jpn/Fra
so Blitzkrieg is not a option here
thus you can use Plan D as a Blitzkrieg at home
tidal field
Spearhead is "a card that servers no other purpose than being played very rarely...
Spearhead did show up in a JKing's video about Brothers in Arms decks, in two Token variants
plus I remember maodi saying he used to play one copy in Tokens as well
doesnt include me who seriously wrote a 7000 word essay on it
example of thing Spearhead could fulfill is a SKD deck, where you trigger couple 144th's destruction effects giving some pretty big damage to face
you can use it as tech to unclog your support line, for example when you hate Dilemma or really dont want a suppressed 0/4 elite
in Jaggro, can also be a pseudo-Blitzkrieg that can also buff stuff like Ann and Dinah and trigger Signal
same with many other Aggro decks
I think it could possibly rise to be at least something to consider during Naval Warfare
Rout was popular, Handlock was a thing (you could remove Routed Troops so enemy couldn't Fog of War them), Dilemma was (and still is, although less popular) a thing, Sov was optimal ally for Jaggro
Crossfire was popular and Spearhead could make your board close to crossfire-proof (with at least +2+2 enemy doesnt have a easy Crossfire wipe now, he would need to use several more credits to make it one, not to mention possible more draw from Recon when he does)
could give you the finishing blow before Alpen or Bismarck comes in
later Brit/Sov Brewsters rised to popularity, and there was Alabama who could be a fodder as it's cheap and you brought it for "Show when Drawn" anyway, as well as Coronado who passively printed free bodies
Homefront also brought 178th and 573rd, both spawn bodies on destruction, which Spearhead can buff
(ngl only time I considered 573rd is a Spearhead deck)
crystal acorn
By the sheer number of messages on this suggestion something with this card needs to change. It's an elite card with a significant weakness.
#BufftheGrenades!
limpid pewter
!573rd
fast tideBOT
Cards found: 1
light cedar
By the sheer number of messages on this suggestion something with this card need...
Maybe they could just give it 7 defense? At least then it wouldn't get taken out so easily by a 2K extended barrage
crystal acorn
Maybe they could just give it 7 defense? At least then it wouldn't get taken out...
Maybe...tho.id rather have "when", added