Suppression a TED talk

[idle shoal]

Hey, before we get into this let's take a sec and take a breather. You good? Alright let's start.

Lemme take you back to a time before the Winter War expansion. Aggro was mid, decks had decent variety with three at the top: ramp/token/buff, and matches took a while letting decks play out. This made it so people had to not only plan around early, but middle and late game as well; balancing card draw with removal and other orders.

Then suppression came in, and it came swinging. Aggro usage spiked, since they now had a cheap alternative to removal, and later game decks struggled to compete unless they had good early game. The buffs to aggro were meant to not only help move he game along, but also make it more approachable for new players. However, it had the unintended (at least I hope it was) consequence of making aggro one of he best decks in the game. Looking at tournaments aggro is between first and third place in terms of use rate, and sometimes it even takes up all three slots. Aggro has gone from a middling deck to one that twists others arms to run, and if you don't run it then you have to run heavy defense or mass attack orders (such as crossfire).

The issue with using the heavy units to defend your HQ from getting pulped is that suppression counters it almost immediately. Cards like Duress (US 0k card that suppresses target) or Suppression (Ger 1k card that suppresses target and let's you draw a card if you own a plane) are egregiously easy and cheap to use. This prevents just putting down guard units to counter aggro, and forces you to use high stat cards instead, but the high stat cards are the same ones with high operation cost. This coerces people into using 3op cost decks just to hopefully compete in the match.

The problem with suppression is it's enabling aggro far too much to be balanced, and it causes some of the only defenses against aggro to be worthless. Something needs to change and whether that be a rework, removal, or a counter play option something must happen. Aggro has reigned king for far too long, and it might honestly be time to dethrone it. Aggro will still exist without suppression, and while it'll be harder for aggro to win on turn 3-4 (for proof see blitzkrieg) the game will be able to take a breather. New players are still able to play aggro, and they're able to learn using things like pre-built decks either from the nations leveling system, or from the shop. Instead of using aggro to compensate maybe make the decks usable even if you don't own all the cards.

In summation, suppression is and has been far too strong for far too long. It enables aggro to push with reckless abandon, and it permits ignoring the strategies that are specifically meant to counter aggro. Before the addition of suppression there was far more variety in deck usage, but now there's almost only aggro. New players have options, and giving them more isn't a bad thing, but suppression has to be changed it can't be like this anymore.

My suggestions are thus-

Rework suppression so it wears off over time encouraging players to target the unit otherwise they have to face it again eventually

Give an option to unsupress a unit either through orders or units

Increase the cost so it can't be used as easily

Make it so it doesn't remove keywords

[vocal axle]

Don't forget Suppress now resets everything for Veteran units

Literally sending them back to their original base form

They really out here buffing Veterans for nothing

[idle shoal]

i was going to talk about that but didn't have enough space qwq

you're right tho and i honestly don't understand why it was needed

only real veteran decks i can think of is the like- ger/sov one and even then it takes forever to get running

[vocal axle]

Ger/Brit is the better option

Breakout is a necessity

Great burst damage once you have a Veteran unit in the front

[idle shoal]

depends i suppose 266th guard rifles makes veteran cards a lot easier to pull off

[vocal axle]

But yeah complicated and difficult triggers only for them to easily be Suppressed?

[idle shoal]

yeah it blows :c

[vocal axle]

At least the previous way they Suppressed you at least had a Veteran body

Now they decide to do this?

Like mate, do you or do you not want to buff some of the features you introduced?

Develop is dead to rites, the only thing you're developing is BSI and Blitz Doctrine

[idle shoal]

plus a kinda large issue is that some of the trigger effects can only realistically be accomplished once

[vocal axle]

Ramptribution got murdered

Then Covert came

Really didn't get a good deck

[thin lynx]

this summation is incorrect, aggro wasn't mid, and you're wrong about what decks were popular.

and aggro is mid right now

suppression is definitely not a big aggro enabler

typical japan-ger runs 3 cards with suppression

probably even 1-2 sometimes

[vocal axle]

Same with fully repair too

[thin lynx]

but also you didn't actually suggest a change

you just said 'something should be different'

[idle shoal]

aggro had dozens of easy counters and guard couldn't really be broken through unless you had removal or something to get through it

those decks were some of the primary front runners US/BRIT ramp Sov/US token (light infantry) and BRIT/Sov (or insert nation here) buff deck

those were some of the largest decks in the game, and reasons why people wanted aggro buffs so the game wouldn't enable them

[idle shoal]

i did tho? i said "...a rework, removal, or a counter play option..." as for a rework many others have suggested something but ill throw my two cents into the can

suppression should only remove triggers, passives, and buffs, but shouldn't remove keywords

that way suppression still has value in hurting strong passive/trigger/buffed cards but can't just stream roll guard defenses

[idle shoal]

again tournament use rates and what is found in most matches i feel is a pretty good indicator for what decks are good and bad

how often do you see something like a Sov token deck?

[thin lynx]

Yes, a rework... How?

Like we still need specifics

or counterplay options

[idle shoal]

when you are able to outright ignore units because you're able to bypass them it becomes a big enabler

[idle shoal]

i gave you the rework? i said make it so it doesn't remove keywords things like: guard, shock, blitz, etc

Or make the rework so suppression wears off in a couple turns think like- dive bombing for Germany it reduces a units attack to zero for your turn and the enemy's turn but after that the unit gets it's attack back

also for counter play there's countermeasure counter play but im talking something g more direct either

A. make cards that can undo suppression effects (possible since the buffs on the cards don't just leave they're still listen on the side of the card when you click it so just reinstate the buffs

B. Give the card an option for becoming veteran again, either through it's initial avenue, or through something universal

[thin lynx]

ah

[idle shoal]

do you have an alternative option?

[thin lynx]

oh suppression is fine especially by now

[vocal axle]

The thing I don't like is them shafting veterans

Like wtf did they do

[idle shoal]

might i ask how it's fine?

understanding what you said earlier about how there's typically only a couple suppression cards in the decks

why are we unable to like- fix the issue tho?

there's actual units that perform suppression too

[languid pebble]

I'm personally fine with suppression since it forces me to change my tactics up and reconsider before buffing, but if we could have a card that like, adds a copy of a suppressed unit to your hand, maybe with reduced cost, a buff, or perhaps just [make the order cheaper at the expense of destroying the original unit], it would be nice. Maybe make if special/elite

[vocal axle]

By that point, the payoff on Veteran kinda goes bust if the enemy's running Suppress which they do

[idle shoal]

i agree in the idea of forcing people to think about which units to buff and not just stack it all on one unit

but i also think there should be a way to get use out of that unit again either through removing the suppression or having it wear off

that way the unit isn't bricked for the rest of the match

[thin lynx]

What issue, and yeah there are units that can perform suppress, what about them?

Also removing suppression from units that got suppressed is a bad idea, lots of ways for that both game mechanics wise and coding wise to go wrong, I think if we ever were to stop suppression we should make things unsuppressable instead

But I don't think it's an issue and with how little it sees play it's not worth

[idle shoal]

we already have cards that prevent suppression but as far as i know of its only on Russia

the reason i brought up the units is because this isn't just an order issue this is also an issue where units can be plopped down and brick another unit for the game

removing suppression is an idea and if it doesn't work then there's two other options

as for the usage rates like you said aggro decks have suppression as do dozens of other decks that aren't even aggro focused

suppression was supposed to be an alternative to removal but instead became something that's arguably better since for a cheaper cost you accomplish a similar goal and the only stipulation is that you just finish off the unit and even then there's orders that instakill suppressed units the one i can think of off the top of my head is the finnish order

[vocal axle]

Breaking Point is garbage

[idle shoal]

suppression is getting a buff and it doesn't need it

it needs a rework or counter play think to cards like the US bomber that used to suppress all enemies or the white death that suppresses all enemies

there are dozens of ways to suppress ranging from units to counter measures to orders

for the price of 0-1k (which is where most of the suppression options lie) you brick an enemy unit for the game

[idle shoal]

yeah- needing to use sov for a single order that can be worked around easily isn't good

[shy juniper]

I don't know much about balancing and stuff but having suppression in the game surely must hinder the variety of decks that are viable

I strongly agree that it should not remove keywords

On the other hand, it is maybe necessary to keep high rolling decks in check

[idle shoal]

but that's why im saying that there should be a way to undo it

still keeps the decks in check but doesn't stop them for the entire game

[shy juniper]

Yeah idk really. Though subject tbh

[idle shoal]

wat do you mean if you don't mind me asking

[shy juniper]

I don't have any more input, too hard for me to judge.

[idle shoal]

ah oki :3

thank you for weighing in tho regardless i wanna hear perspectives from all types of players

[pastel harbor]

It's good to force decks to interact since turn 1. I really don't get the rant

[slate blade]

Suppression is an important release valve on the game as it's another option to help deal with overwhelmingly large units (or ones that can spiral out of control if not answered)
It's important to keep in mind that there has already been similar effects through retreat and bounce which also neuters units or allows aggro to get through. That hasn't ever really changed and isn't something suppression has taken over the edge. Certain decks like alpine were a bit more effected by suppression but those decks were already on the weaker side and the overall game has adapted with a lot of different decks already.
But using recent examples like Ger/Fra aggro or Jaggro as examples doesn't hold a lot of water because decks like soviet control and US throp also preform very well atm. These are opverall decks that play slower and have proven successful. Just spamming guards hasn't even really worked in a long time more so because nations like Britain struggle value wise. If you want like more control decks then the better focus would be on like buffing their win cons as their defensive tools are strong enough to compete with aggro. It's just the case that like you need to be able to handle like front formation or similar and win long games to be good.
All that to say that Suppression is maybe a bit more efficent then previous removal that aggro ran in terms of getting to the enemy face but it obviously doesn't bounce or kill said unit so there are trade offs. But I would disagree that the mechanic really cramps down on various decks to much (and even without it those decks just wouldn't be very good)

[idle shoal]

I agree that suppression has a place in helping prevent snowball units from running the game and it is a good cheaper alternative than running removal. I also believe that it enables aggro to have if not free than almost free options to dealing with units that help nations exist. Guard works to slow aggro down and give them a target to fight other than the HQ, and while they aren't the best it gives you time to plan. Suppression allows you to just ignore the guard units since they no longer serve as an obstacle until they take the frontline. I think it's better for the effect to be reworked as I said something akin to the suppression wearing off or an option to counter it (plus suppression wearing off would make more thematic sense since when people were suppressed in WWII they didn't lose their capabilities forever). Decks like throp US and Sov control are working but that's fine I feel the reason why it's believed they're broken is because late game is dead. When aggro is middling mid and late game are strong late game typically beats mid game but it can't currently because aggro is destroying it. I agree suppression is a bit more effective than previous removal and due to that I see one of three options: increase the price (which kills it as an option for aggro), give it counter play (such as units or orders that can unsuppress), or rework it (such as making it have a limited time or not taking away keywords). The mechanic cramps long term strategy, and because of that decks that would be pretty okay now (such as throp US or Sov control like you said) are great.

[idle shoal]

early interaction is good but I don't feel that's how the entire game should go if it's meant to be a slugfest where you go turn for turn hitting eachother what's the point of playing mid or late game

you can have early interaction but when you're just slugging it out it's no longer a strategic effort it's a playground slap fight

while yes that can be effective at times thats okay (hence why aggro was mid not terrible or exceptional) and it checks people from being able to spend the entire game building up for one effort (like the commonwealth) should that be how the entire game is played?

even if it is then what's the difference between reworking the mechanic and not then? the decks are still interacting since turn one or two they just aren't stuck like that for the entire game

[remote stream]

I had an Idea a while ago that added more numerical values to certain keywords, and Supression was one of them

.
Suppression1 would remove all Keywords and OP cost

Suppression2 would reset the attack and defence of a unit (along with Keywords, and op)

Suppression3 would remove all text from the card (Along with stats, etc)

[fallow quest]

there only 4 card that can't be supress but two of them never see play

[marble ermine]

Then why give overwhelmingly large units, like T-34 1945, not only "cannot be suppressed" but also constant shock? "Cannot be suppressed" should be for high utility units that are already vulnerable to soft removal, not juggernauts in themselves.

Retreat is a little more expensive, bounce is a lot more expensive. That's the difference. Inexpensiveness is by and large the number 1 problem here, even slight cost increases would go a long way.

Anti-snowball is good, but by and large I've been seeing it increase aggro snowballs, not reduce anything

That said, you do need to suggest a specific change, I'd say cost increase.

That said, I've already made that suggestion a long time ago.

[idle shoal]

i agree with a cost increase being great to reduce how effective it is with aggro

but i think also taking it a little further and making it wear off could also be extremely helpful

it'll still retain the core functionality of reducing how strong certain cards are by removing keywords stat increases etc BUT it'll also create an incentive to nyot just leave the unit alive since it'll come back eventually and when it does it'll hurt bad

[marble ermine]

Sounds good, but maybe add that to the OP so it's more visible

Just because it is technically a rule

[idle shoal]

there we go :3

[marble ermine]

Sounds good 👍

I still can't wrap my mind around why a unit with perpetual shock and big body cannot be suppressed, when the theory is suppress should be preventing steamrolling. It is literally a unit designed to snowball. One or the other maybe, but both? It's antithetical

Meanwhile older stuff with like 1 or 2 body and strong abilities can. Like literally just 3 dmg it

[idle shoal]

i agree with wut others have said with suppression being added to serve as an alternative to removal but i think that the game is in a state where a pivot has to be made and we can't keep making the same choices we have been

[marble ermine]

Agreed, and I'd say really try to narrow down what the theory even is and stick to it. Or change it across the board if it isn't working.

I really feel that "cannot be suppressed" should be reserved for units with 3 or less defense and/or some early guards. It should not be used for high body units except maybe the occasional guard

Because at that point removal can be reasonably expected

[idle shoal]

i think it'd be good on early guard units but the question then is wut units and on wut nations?

nations like Germany or US don't really have guard and you'd be forcing those players to choose a secondary nation that does have guard and use those units

[slate blade]

There is exactly 3 cards that have suppression to immunity and they all appeared in the same set/time suppression came out. Soviets have a history of strong beat sticks with lots of good stats and effects.
T-34-85 1945 is also the only one that sees any amount of play. It also mostly sees pant cause it’s a big shock unit. The suppression immunity is at most a modest boost in power. It’s not why the unit is good and could be removed without making it unplayable

If every big unit was being made immune ro suppression that would indicate some issue IMO

[idle shoal]

if the 1945 unsupressable thing is the only one that sees any play isn't that indicative of something wrong?

plus also if it got suppressed then it would lose the thing that made it strong in the first place

additionally all of this is being said before considering that it's a turn 6 unit

if aggro is being used with suppression then by turn 6 the game is almost over

[slate blade]

I mean the 1945 is seeing play because it’s got blitz and infinite shock. That alone is good enough to be a playable card since it 2 for 1s at least

Keep in mind one of the best decks in game atm is a Soviet control deck. So there are control decks that keep pace and can fight against Aggro

[idle shoal]

say your enemy is running hit the drop point

for 6k you've just deployed a 6/6 paperweight you can't use until your next turn and you lose all your benefits

[slate blade]

But people aren’t playing hit the drop point because it’s not a card worth running

And you still have a 6/6 they have to answer

[idle shoal]

yes but like i said it's a mid game option the problem is getting to that point getting to mid game is difficult since suppression prevents a ton of options in terms of protecting hq leaving your only real options mass damage/removal

[marble ermine]

Then why wasn't that done?

[slate blade]

So is the suggestion that control should be able to win by just playing endless guards? And that is why suppression is to strong?

[marble ermine]

And why not try it out?

[idle shoal]

it's a countermeasure for Ger/Fin counter decks and a 6/6 can easily be answered with a tactical and through or anything else

[slate blade]

Because 1945 is fine as a card

It doesn’t need any changes and is just solid all around

[idle shoal]

no the suggestion is to rework suppression to it's not as (pardon the pun) suppressive giving options to counter play rather than just bricking a unit for the game

there are literally dozens of elite units that are wincons that can be done away with an order that takes 0k to use or 1k and gives a card draw

[marble ermine]

I'd say a few more early guards wouldn't have that effect. We're not advocating for every guard, just a few across more nations, and preferably those that could use a buff anyway

[idle shoal]

i dont think the game should become a buff contest but i also don't think that buffing is a bad thing

suppression should be reworked since it's in a spot of extreme strength there really aren't that many or any types of cards that match that strength for that price

[marble ermine]

Because guard being virtually useless against suppress spam isn't better

Especially when units can get enormously big enormously fast

[slate blade]

I mean this same argument has been made in the past about removal and retreat is the thing. Why play guards when they bounce and kill every one played.

Suppression is not what is like overturning Ger/Fra aggro atm

That’s more so units that are to good like somua or Aunt Frieda

[idle shoal]

so why must we justify one broken thing by saying another is broken?

if i break my toe and my leg the doctor won't say that the toe is a lost cause just because the leg is broken they'll try to fix both and while the leg will take more time the toe can still be fixed at the same time

[marble ermine]

Well, I'm not among those that have made that argument and I don't agree with it.

But neither of those generally see more than 1 use per turn. Suppress is often lobbed en masse within the first 4 turns, while retreat from the support line isn't available until right at turn 4.

Cheapest bounce was a 3k countermeasure, and now that's reserved

[idle shoal]

but the difference here is that suppression is adding almost free value

[marble ermine]

And we're talking frequent victories at turn 4

So that is where I'd say the big deal comes in. Bounce and retreat largely punish inactive control. Duress mostly removes counterplay when aggro is already at its strongest

Or are themselves used by control, but I see no issue with how suppress is used by control right now, just how it is used by aggro

Removing counterplay is inherently unfun, punishing a player for not capitalizing on opportunities isn't

[idle shoal]

i 100% agree with the first part but im confused by wut you mean in the second

[marble ermine]

Second: right now control decks are largely using suppress as designed (to prevent one or a few units from snowballing). That's not where I see the problem, it's how aggro uses it to prevent counterplay.

Third: bounce and retreat are more expensive. As such generally if a control deck loses to it, either the design was too narrow or they didn't take advantage of some important opportunities. They cannot be spammed as easily.

[idle shoal]

i was saying in the part i replied to sorry for nyot clarifying that qwq

i agree with wut you're saying and i also 100% agree that nyot capitalizing on opportunities is the fault of the player

[slate blade]

Because suppression isn't really broken. It's a tempo tool that doesn't really impact the board in various matchups where every card can matter. It can help kill control decks if they have 1 guard in the way or something but on the flip side there are matches that suppression does very little or really is worse then another card would be. It is why suppression is costed the way it is. If duress was 1K or like M10A1 was a 2/2 they would likely not be played as they wouldn't be worth it

[marble ermine]

1 guard in the way is a much bigger deal than it used to be since 6/6 tanks on your turn 2 is now a thing

[fallow quest]

I have run into it this month or something in unranked

[marble ermine]

And not even a solitary unit

[fallow quest]

and some units are good but now never see any play because of suppress

[idle shoal]

in tight synergy decks suppression obliterates wincons think to t-34 deck if the enemy suppresses your 214ths then it REALLY hurts

suppression can see success in almost every single match since there's always something that a deck utilizes especially well even in multi decks where they switch gears mid match it can devastate wut type they're using at that moment

im saying it should be changed for the health of the game and just delivering nerfs to individual things can help a little but doesn't resolve the larger issue

[slate blade]

do you hafve some example cards you feel like became unplayable after suppression?

[marble ermine]

The only reply to suppress with a 6/6 tank t2 is to suppress said tank. Which is like countering Britain with Britain

[idle shoal]

ger grenadiers sobbing in the corner unable to see actual play

[slate blade]

But here is the thing
T34 as a deck sucks anyway
Suppression is not why T34 is not playable and removal hitting Amur does the same job in crippling the deck

[idle shoal]

pretty much any of the elite 1k 4op infantry units

pretty much any passive smokescreen unit

the elite trains

A6M2

the list goes on

[idle shoal]

but removal costs more Kredits which is a core part of the discussion

suppression is almost free

with duress only costing a card and Suppression only costing 1k and potentially giving you a card

[fallow quest]

Like 10th ENGINEERS BATTALION, SUNRISE DIVISION, 342. FÜSILIERS, 42nd RIFLES, 22nd GUARDS BRIGADE, 5th MEDICAL BATTALION, SENDAI REGIMENT, T-60 and list goes on

That's my option

[slate blade]

except the 0/4s are literally in every deck pretty much?
Passive smokescreen like commandos are almost top meta atm
The trains still get used
Zero sees occasional play in some slower Japan midrange lists (like Japan salvage tried it out a while ago)

[idle shoal]

sendai is a perfect example since the unit that it took away just comes back to the board with no penalties

[marble ermine]

Or a mirror match I suppose, but same issue.

[idle shoal]

yeah but your question was "do you hafve some example cards you feel like became unplayable after suppression?" meaning after the unit gets suppressed which i dont know the use of a 4op unit that has 0/4

[fallow quest]

And I heard t-60 had the same issue and it was seeing play time but when suppress came out than it die off

And I never see TSU REGIMENT to

[slate blade]

yes but clearly you still play it in your deck correct? Like if suppression was such an issue you would surely stop playing it in decks

[marble ermine]

In fairness to fun, some cards (like those that replicate indefinitely) really need suppress to balance them out. Tsu is one

It's not a bad mechanic overall, but definitely needs to be modified deeply to actually do what it is supposed to without making other problems worse

[slate blade]

The thing with most of these cards though is that they aren't very good anyway
Stuff like 22nd Brigade or Sunrise are not part of good decks and are driven down by bad power levels rather then something like suppression existing

[fallow quest]

Yes but I get that but Tsu regiment you play it than hit by duress and welp you have a 5-4 and you waste 4k tbh

[idle shoal]

it becomes a risk i take if they suppress it then i just have to cope with it and hope that the frontline opens

the things that's not being considered here is that in those situations when it gets suppressed you either are down a spot in your support line, have to spend 4op to move it to the frontline (if it's open), or cry as aggro doesn't give you a high enough damage enemy to target so you can rid yourself of the unit

[idle shoal]

i also rarely use the units if ever the only time i can remember using one of them was in a brit commando deck

[marble ermine]

Guaranteed destroy your choice of unit by destroying your own is already pretty strong. DFA is random, for example

So suppress makes it a gamble. Not where I see the issue

[fallow quest]

Well if I remember right when I started there was a deck that was been played with sunrise and others

[fallow quest]

I get that

[slate blade]

there was but it didn't use sunrise
It just relied on better self damage synergy like 34th Guards

[vocal axle]

The thing I'm heavily not in favor is the change on Veteran units regarding them getting suppressed

[idle shoal]

but one mechanic shouldn't out rule entire strategies

[slate blade]

the thing is that it doesn't

[vocal axle]

People literally have to do side quests in-game just for them to be veteran

And now they're getting turned to base form in suppress???

[fallow quest]

Wait what? and it used %ANCIENT EMPIRE%

[glad solar]

Cards found: 1

[fallow quest]

I agree

[idle shoal]

it does though buffing and self damage along with tokens get bullied

[idle shoal]

real that sucks :c

[vocal axle]

What's the point in making a dedicated Veteran deck if I can't even make use of there stats

[fallow quest]

And you do see poland tokens anymore? at all other than once in a blue moon?

[slate blade]

self damage remained effective up until pretty much the last rotation
Tokens died because of rotation as well
And buff like those in German aggro remain as ever common

I think people here are misconflating decks with being to weak due to lack of support/rotation
and suppression somehow being a big impact to them

A lot of the decks being talked about here died because of rotation more then anything

[idle shoal]

white death ruined token

self damage got ruined but just targeting the units that benefitted

[fallow quest]

I was about to say white death destroys poland Legions and hel

[idle shoal]

suppression was the thing that opened the door though and helped push them out

[slate blade]

It didn't really
Because tokens died with that rotation

[marble ermine]

If the devs are dead set on keeping suppress as it is, could we at least reduce just how overcharged early aggro units can get? Doesn't matter what you played T1, it gets suppressed and by t2 more than half your base health is gone, even on the really, really off chance you brought For the King, you still have 1 defense you couldn't punch through that will be buffed next turn anyway

[idle shoal]

so are you trying to say that tokens dying when mass suppression was added is just a coincidence?

[fallow quest]

Poland tokens are still a thing and I am 90% sure it's

[marble ermine]

I guess I forgot about pin spam, but even that is being taken

[vocal axle]

Japan Intel is gonna be the bread and butter of Japan this expansion

[vocal axle]

Ironically not as oppressive today

But yeah that rotation on Forced Surrender

[marble ermine]

It never really was

[fallow quest]

Yes but %white death% going to destroy it tho I think or any suppress

[vocal axle]

I mean SS + CD

[glad solar]

Cards found: 1

[marble ermine]

But it was, technically, something other than guards available turn 2

Even then it was a subpar option

[slate blade]

Whenever no surrender rotated out was what killed tokens

as it gutted their ability to refill the board after a single AOE

It was either winter war or another set that happened

[idle shoal]

line of engagement came out at the same time

[slate blade]

actually you are right
Tokens was fairly storng until that got a nerf

but tokens died when they couldn't make many tokens is the jist of it
And 1939 has so far not given soviets much of any support over the last couple sets

But suppression was not the thing that like murdered Tokens
It woulda survived if it reainted it's best cards

[idle shoal]

yes i understand that but them not being able to buff their tokens is a huge part of that

something like 67th getting suppressed causes your tokens to not get any buffs

or something like 16th getting suppressed means you can't make good amounts of legion units

[fallow quest]

And suppress allowed people to suppress keywords on they own units like BF 110 C ZERSTÖRER

[slate blade]

I mean again the same thing can be said of removal
If you stick a tarnow that is already very bad for the opponent and they have to deal with it

there isn't much of a scenario where you pay 1K to suppress a tarnow is any differnt then paying 3-4K to retreat/bounce/kill it

[idle shoal]

there is when we talk about aggro or when we're talking about cost effectiveness those other options have downsides to using them or are limited in number

the issue is how easy the mechanic is to use with no effort

[slate blade]

If you are legit paying 5K to play tarnow and they need to deal with it then they are likely already in a losing position

[fallow quest]

Yup it's like I play down a guard and than it get suppress by duress than welp there goes that and now I got deal 5 damage to face or more wtf

[slate blade]

suppression is not a factor in such a scenario because you are playing value units and getting away with it

[fallow quest]

It's like I put down my 4th guard because they played PANTHER D and than it's they turn and deal 14 damage to my HQ because of Duress suppress my 4th guard or any guard tbh

[slate blade]

regardless it's been quite a while where suppress has been in game
I wouldn't expect much to really change in relation to it as it's not really been a driver of any meta decks

[idle shoal]

or it's a mid game situation where you're building your tokens

[vocal axle]

Then why did they recently just buff it to screw veterans then???

What's the point

[slate blade]

As I understand it that is how it was always supposed to work

[idle shoal]

it's a huge driver in aggro tho

[vocal axle]

Are you serious

[slate blade]

Not really
It's good but aggro is strong because of other strong cards

[marble ermine]

I've been seeing it as a driver frequently in aggro though, especially smokescreen aggro

[slate blade]

Veteran has always been a buff on the unit
It's why they de vet if bounced

[fallow quest]

And sendai is now shit and I rather play the order type than sendai

[slate blade]

Or like removed with sendai

[idle shoal]

it gives aggro a free pathway through difficult enemies without effort

[marble ermine]

Any chance of at least getting those nerfed, if suppress remains untouched?

[slate blade]

not really as they aren't oppressive

[marble ermine]

A 6/6 tank and multiple dragons turn 2 isn't oppressive?

[slate blade]

Oh you mean aggro in general

[fallow quest]

I might straight up quite because of duress and aggro keep getting buff and no stoping them

[marble ermine]

Yeah

[vocal axle]

So Veteran decks got screwed because of that, the triggers for it can be very difficult to trigger sometimes and now I can't even take advantage of the stats it has because the enemy played Suppression on it. Wow

[slate blade]

there is usually a balance patch with major expansions

[idle shoal]

i have a uh- lengthy post about that

[marble ermine]

Especially smokescreen, dragons, and freida

[idle shoal]

how many major expansions has it been since suppression had anything done to it

[vocal axle]

@marble ermine

[marble ermine]

Albeit last 2 are usually the same

[idle shoal]

much less a nerf

[slate blade]

2-3 IIRC

since winter war was before covert and blood and iron

[marble ermine]

That could definitely use a rebalance as well

[idle shoal]

and do you know off the top of your head how many new suppression options have been added?

[marble ermine]

Aggro is more outright oppressive

Vets will be missed until fixed

[vocal axle]

They really changed Panzer II-C as a Veteran buffer for nothing it seems like

[slate blade]

2 have come out since winter war

[idle shoal]

why haven't we changed any part of it then?

[slate blade]

cause it doesn't need it

peopel more so get irate over suppression rather then it actually being to strong

It's a good tempo tool but not much more

[idle shoal]

then wuts wrong with reworking it

making it more interactive

[slate blade]

because nothing is need of reworking

[idle shoal]

so if it ain't broke don't fix it?

[slate blade]

pretty much

the same argument has been around when removal is good as well
About how the game is to focused on control and etc

[idle shoal]

that's- wrong.

suppression should be reworked to become more interactive the game is stagnating and has been for a while

suppression should be changed so aggro has to try a bit harder rather than just throwing a single order at an enemy and bricking them for the entire game

[slate blade]

Listen we can have and have had this same arguement about literally every deck in the game

Removal is OP
Aggro is OP
Control is OP
Midrange is OP
etc

Aggro has it's place in the game and currently German aggro is a bit to strong for what it should be

but nerfing or reworking suppression would not really impact the deck as much as you might think

because aggro decks derive their power from good cheap units
Suppression or whatever chepa removal they use to get around guards will change overtime but it is supplmentary rather then the power house of such decks

[idle shoal]

but it's a step towards a better position

[slate blade]

It isn't really

you maybe get like some really bad decks to win slightly more

but they won't become good decks

As I said above it's a mechanic that can frustrate some players

but so does a lot of things like just outright removal or the aggro many people are upset by

generally you gotta look at the tournaments, whatever data 1939 has from all the games, and then add player sentiment on top of it in order to adjust stuff

people dislike suppression but it's not an overly strong mechanic so a rework is highly unlikely
At most maybe a suppression card might get adjusted if it's to strong

but so far that is not the case

[idle shoal]

listen we agree that aggro isn't the healthiest for the game right now but we can still try to help the game improve

suppression bricks units for the entire game with no option for counter play or undoing beyond running counter measures

the mechanic should be reworked to help prevent the issues it has and will continue to cause

having suppression not remove keywords is enough to make it reasonable for other decks to compete but not so much that the mechanic is broken

if people dislike suppression then why shouldn't we change it so we can have people a bit more happy it's not a huge change but it'll help build goodwill for the community and 1939 could definitely use it right now

[slate blade]

because mechanic reworks are a big effort

so it's not ssomething you can do in an afternoon

plus the other aspect is that there are many people that enjoy suppression

and as soon as you rework it they get all up in arms over it

there are a lot of players that have wildly differnt desires from the game

[marble ermine]

Well, at least that. 👍

Hopefully it can be at least brought in line other ways

[slate blade]

yes 1939 at least can adjust decks like that from power house cards in it

but I wouldn't expect suppression to be what changes

[marble ermine]

The latter would have been nice, but I'm at least reasonably content with adjusting other elements that are creating problems around it.

[pastel harbor]

The point is getting good enough to play the next round after your opponent runs out of breath. It's kinda like the whole point

[idle shoal]

that's just an endurance test then is it not?

[pastel harbor]

not quite. It's also a display of skill

[idle shoal]

skill would be tactically countering what you opponent does similar to a game of chess it seems what you're describing is more a boxing match

[pastel harbor]

so?

[muted grove]

are they in the room with us?

lately ive been playing a russia-Italy deck that focuses on healing my HQ so i can spam T-34s with the elite (1 damage to spawn a 5/5 with blitz)

and it used to decently stomp aggro because if they didnt spend their kill cards on my units they just healed my HQ back up

now they just need to spend 12-33% of my unit cost to leave me with a subpar expensive unit

that no longer does the role that it was intended to fulfil

and with how fast the most common aggro deck are that one slow unit isnt taking down 3-4 face rushers in a timely manner

like oh i played a 2/3 with 2 op cost

in the meantime ive taken 3 light tanks and 2 infantry to the face

id rather aggro be forced to spend the 3 credits to just kill my unit

[slate blade]

There is a lot of them
People that like aggro, people that like cost effective ways to shut down snowball units, etc
The reason you may not see them is that people only tend to be vocal over stuff they dislike
Sov control is overall very strong atm and especially with an italian ally has the chops to compete with aggro and you can see like some examples over in #tournament-results-and-decks

The thing people need to keep in mind is that even if suppression were to be removed tomorrow
Aggro decks still have very cheap ways to get around guards and defensive units

Commit the Reserves
Red Dawn (although that is rotating)
Dive Bombing
Zamosc Uprising (although poland isn't great atm)

So aggro won't stop having cost effective ways to punch through stuff

[thin lynx]

suppress is good soft removal 👍🏽

[slate blade]

it will just change how it does it

the game is in a constant state of aggro vs control (and now in the last couple years midrange as well)
And it will swing one way or the other at any given time
But removal in general has to be cost effective if it is to be playable at all

Suppression happens to be the cheapest option because it's the least detrimental in terms of actually deal with a unit
And aggro can use that to push through and secure a kill
But they will just go to other things if that wasn't the case
and it won't like fix aggro or anything

Aggro when it overpreforms is 95% of the time an issue when it's threats are to strong

like is the case atm with Ger/Fra and stuff like the Somua

[muted grove]

suppression is a bad mechanic to deal with, id rather the unit just be dead

because suppression makes the cost value of a unit irrevelavant

since you pay extra (or have a certain stat) for some ability and now its useless

[slate blade]

but you still retain the body of the unit
Which still has a use for trading, contesting frontline, etc

[muted grove]

its just not fun to use or fight

[slate blade]

If they kill it you are actually out even more

[muted grove]

they dont have to kill it

supression did the job

and good luck winning back the frontline when they suppress your delaying tactic

all suppression does is reward more removal

why bother playing units when its more beneficial to just remove the enemy units

[slate blade]

because your own unit still ahve deployment effects, blitz, and other effects the enemy has to spend cards dealing with

[muted grove]

while true

the current aggro deck does not care

it just needs the suppress the handle of units that hit the table before turn 6

atleast using kill orders it would delay the deck itself

since outright killing the unit costs more

[slate blade]

but does it really? We are talking about maybe 1-2 extra kredits here
Like is them playing commit really that much worse then them playing suppression for 1k?

[muted grove]

yes the extra cost in kredits is vital

[slate blade]

cause they also just killed what you played
So you can't even trade or otherwise use that unit to contest the frontline

[muted grove]

9/10 the suppression basically killed the unit

sure its a body that can do things

but it does those things so damn ineffectively because its stats are based around an ability

[slate blade]

It only kills the unit really if you die before getting to use it

[muted grove]

id argue supression is worse than if the unit just died

1st jasco becomes a waste of space for example

the 2/3 plane with 2 op cost is basically dead weight

[slate blade]

but the deeper reason suppression can feel strong is that it's backing up units that are to strong

[muted grove]

sure it can do things, but its no longer worth the operation cost

[slate blade]

Any cheap removal will feel strong if the threats themselves are to overwhelming

[muted grove]

then what youre saying is that suppression is fine, but aggro is overturned for a supressionless world, and has not been modified since it was added.

[slate blade]

not really
More so just aggro in general is consistently strong

Since it's something that often receives support as people enjoy playing it and is a core archetype for several nations

suppression did not dramatically change how or why aggro was successful
Other things like rotation and new cards have had far larger impact on what is strong atm

The last mini set brought a Ger/Fra deck into the world and it's not because of suppression that it's strong
It's that it has a lot of high tempo plays that can snowball into one another with stuff like dragoons and somua

[muted grove]

look all im saying is that pre-suppression i could beat aggro 2/3 times if the draws werent insane, with a deck designed to beat aggro

now its maybe 1/4

[slate blade]

1939 has access to the overall amtch data
Aggro did not and has not gotten seriously better because of suppression

if it did the suppression cards would've been nerfed in the last year or so

[muted grove]

id beg to differ, i have faced the same aggro deck (if its not some T-34 or M4 spam deck) and its been stupidly strong

[slate blade]

Yes because aggro in general has been strong over the years
But it is not because suppression is some super power they have that makes it impossible to stop them
It's mostly come from their units ending up to strong

as I said a moment ago 1939 has the data to see like how cards preform across the whole game

[thin lynx]

jaggro has like two pieces of suppression at best

if you're losing because of suppression iunno what's going on

[muted grove]

its because they gurge our that deck

[slate blade]

Sometimes
It doesn't always include them since it has like commit the reserves and what not

[muted grove]

and suppress 4 units in 5 turns

[thin lynx]

they don't rely on suppression that much

[muted grove]

im running cards like Fiat G50, 356th, 80th Pasubio, (the italy guard with healing), the 2/4 russian with healing, the 3/4 guard with 1 damage ping

and suppression is stupidly rough

because those units are not designed without their abilities in mind

[slate blade]

!%%47|8C8e8TfxhGo0o5pkppqLqTrj;7H9xjMmToYqm;8U9mfXonrg;

[glad solar]

Orders: 15
Countermeasures: 0
Average attack: 3.33
Average defense: 4.04
Average kredit cost: 4.00
Average operation cost: 1.50

[slate blade]

Here is a sov/ita from the last tournament

There are variants on it with differnet choices and what not

but the core package of G.50 + claim the skies is generally very strong

[thin lynx]

Soviet Italy is literally the strongest deck in the game right now tho

[slate blade]

they can't always be suppressing especially when you ensure you get value out of stuff with blitz and what not

that is generally the secret sauce to bring aggro down atm is have good early game impact stuff through blitz and other immeidate effects
Force 2 for 1s that buys time and makes them spend their turn dealing with those units

often until and AOE resets the board or you start to get into larger units

[muted grove]

give me a second so i can finish my game and and copy my deck

[slate blade]

Like you won't find me arguing that aggro isn't strong atm
It very much is (and Germany is overtuned atm)

just that it's issues are found elsewhere instead of how it gets through/around guards and what not

[muted grove]

Soviet Deck 3
Major power: Soviet
Ally: Italy
HQ: STALINGRAD

Soviet:
1x (1K) 97th RIFLES
4x (1K) BLOODY SICKLE
2x (2K) 456th RIFLE REGIMENT
3x (2K) 845th RIFLES
2x (3K) 52-K
1x (3K) BM-13N US6
1x (3K) NIGHT WITCHES
3x (3K) THE HAMMER
2x (4K) 125th RIFLE REGIMENT
1x (4K) BY THE SWORD
1x (5K) BP-43 ARMORED TRAIN
1x (6K) 83rd NAVAL BRIGADE
1x (6K) KV-1 1941
1x (6K) T-34-85 1945
1x (8K) TRACTOR FACTORIES
1x (8K) WINTER OFFENSIVE
1x (9K) 4th GUARDS RIFLES
1x (9K) FRONT FORMATION

Italy:
2x (1K) MARE NOSTRUM
3x (2K) FIAT G.50
1x (4K) 80th PASUBIO
2x (4K) ATTACK IN THE COLONIES
2x (6K) 7th ALPINI REGIMENT
1x (7K) LA DECIMA

%%47|7V8i8T919bfrh3hGm3mtppqLqTrj;gbgWiUjMjYle;888UfX;7H

[slate blade]

The big thing I would suggest is claim the skies

It’s a very good tool alongside the g50

Allows you to immediately trade and heal

[muted grove]

ill look into it, when i updated the deck last i didnt have any card from the like last year since i took a break

[slate blade]

You will definitely feel the difference once you swap them. It’s very very good

[marble ermine]

I have a bizarre anti-order, anti-cm deck with Sov-Brit. Actually been okay-ish. Claim the skies has been strong on even unbuffed Katalina when I can get the combo off

[fallow quest]

#kards-chat message

I ran into 2 hit the drop point

[idle shoal]

all of these cheap alternatives have clear downsides tho

commit causes a loss of a Kredit slot
red dawn does self damage and isn't a guarantee
dive bombing only negates the attack of a unit not any of its other stuff
Zamosc uprising requires aggro play with Poland which is kinda allergic to speed

[idle shoal]

but then you have to bite the cost by paying the additional op cost to move it and if the frontline is taken (as it often is by aggro decks) you can't take it thus you have to spend more and more op cost to get rid of units because the enemy bricked them for fred

[idle shoal]

majority of deploy effects don't shut down the board and blitz doesn't resolve the issue of not having the fronline

[idle shoal]

but again the difference is that the cheap removal has downsides and tradeoffs nyot just a nuh uh to your unit

[idle shoal]

but it helped a ton with dealing with units that otherwise would counter aggro since now the unit isn't a threat beyond its stat body

[plain orchid]

What if the suppressed unit gets its text and keywords back after it is operated (move/attack)?

[idle shoal]

it's an option and i agree it could be an alternative but would it get them back after it operated or while it's operating?

[slate blade]

The same is said of suppress since it doesn’t actually damage or hurt the unit. Each one has various downsides and trying to paint suppression as this universal answer is a bit disingenuous

But as has been said before you likely will not see a suppression changes or reworks. The mechanic doesn’t cause balance issues and doesn’t really warrant a larger rework.

[plain orchid]

After

[idle shoal]

youre right it doesn't just remove the unit but the game and strategy isn't just built around singular high stat units proof of this can be found in the fact that the majority of those high stat low to mid cost units are reserved

there's a lot more focus on incremental gains and units that buff others around i was literally playing a t-34 deck not even two hours ago and lost 2/3 of my 214th AMUR to suppression and i couldn't do anything about it

i wasted 4k on a unit that gave me no benefit beyond placing a 3/6 unit on the board which i could've done on ger for 3k AND a cheaper op cost

[idle shoal]

a discussion should still occur because of the problems it causes

the other solutions have clear downsides

retreat makes the unit redeployable removal is expensive and burns cards bounce is extremely expensive and is dependent on individual cases

suppression is får too cheap for how effective it is and it should be reworked to resolve the issues that have plagued it

[idle shoal]

then yeah that could work would it get it's stats and buffs back too or nu?

[slate blade]

And you don’t waste 4K when it immediately gets killed for 2K? This argument is trying very hard to single out suppression in comparison to other aggro tempo tools.

[slate blade]

As said it’s been over a year since most suppression came out and it hasn’t been changed

So you likely won’t see any changes until they at some point rotate out.

[plain orchid]

Not stat buffs or changes.
The original text

[idle shoal]

with 2k they pay the price of losing tempo via a loss of a Kredit slot suppression bricked my unit and any of the other options would've been more interactive

[idle shoal]

but the thing is that we're talking about the mechanic not just a handful of cards sure the cards are in rotation making them difficult to change but we've seen it happen before where cards are changed in rotation making them wildly different

mechanics can also change and evolve too

[slate blade]

It is likely suppression will never change

and doesn't really need to

[regal zealot]

considering how powercreeping the newer cards are we might just need some cure for it. It'd be great if it had never been there in the first place but once you had seen light you can't bear darkness no more.

[frail nebula]

Suppression feels like a necessary evil, since without it, it becomes harder to deal with certain powerful units, and it still doesn't remove them anyways, just turns them into a body and nothing else.

It's not overwhelming powerful.

Slightly off topic but suppress should not give back the sendai unit

[marble ermine]

A lot seems to have been designed around the existence of suppress. Kokura's Sword comes to mind: without suppress you would have to kill it and then bounce that unit, or weaken it just enough that it can't advance, and neither of those are very reliable.

A rework would be nice, but short of that eh, there are options (like nerfing smokescreen and Frieda)

[plain orchid]

If a unit needs suppression to be dealt with, it's probably the unit's problem and could use a nerf/rework as is the case with Kokura.
If suppression affects a units' design as a main factor, it will only lead to imbalance.

In its current role it acts as a definitive NO to everything on a unit.
And while that is simple and conveniant to use it can have broader implications.
It's a nice maybe necessary tool and there could be more of it.
Can it be improved? I'd say yes.

[regal zealot]

they can maybe make it a bit more complicated to specify what part on a unit can be suppressed and what not

so there is the inherent "traits" that cannot be suppressed, and "characteristics" that can be suppressed

[marble ermine]

Probably would be more ideal balance wise, but it sounds like we're not getting that regardless.

[plain orchid]

It's hard for me to determine what should be considered traits that cannot be suppressed and vice versa.
It depends on the unit and the board.

But if as I said, the unit can get the text back after being operated:
What that does is (at the expense of operation and kredit):

• The unit's user can get the text back whenever they need it but they can't keep the unit safe on the supportline benefiting from the text on the card indefinitely.
• Potentially more synergies such as retreat and move orders for both the unit's user and the suppressor
• Any synergies related to keywords would be back on the menu
• The suppressor would get at least a one turn delay to prepare for a removal or an opportunity to hit the frontline instead of having to bypass more guards on the supportline to get to their target (unless it's aircraft in which case they still need to be operated)
• ...

More choices for everyone on the defensive or offensive side.

[rocky nest]

%sov 3k veteran inf%

[glad solar]

Cards found: 5

[rocky nest]

At least 252nd Rifles isn't affected by the vet suppress nerf

[vocal axle]

Just realized you can proc it with Old Hares

[marble ermine]

Technically it should, but there are a few weird cards (like Jade) that don't quite work like they read.

Iirc, 252nd is one of those cards where buffs don't count towards gaining veteran (just as you can't buff Jade to guard, oddly).

Could be wrong

[thin lynx]

kokura doesnt need a nerf/rework lol

[sweet berry]

You’d need to take dmg though

That’s a condition for it to veteran

[marble ermine]

I wish it was written in a way where it could be taken more literally (as two independent clauses), but that's another discussion

[idle shoal]

ya know with the recent mechanic addition of convert suppression is going to be completely ruining units

think the newest release (mosquito) when supressed which card will it turn into?

also you just- don't get one of the features for the rest of the game

[marble ermine]

Wait, covert will be able to be suppressed by orders? Wow, I thought we weren't rewoking suppress at all, nit making it even stronger, what gives?

That fundamentally breaks the concept of covert. Seems like it isn't an issue of "fine as it is," but other mechanics (such as veteran) are bent to make it even stronger?

[sweet berry]

He meant convert

And also

It can’t

[marble ermine]

Ohhh, yeah I misread and presumed it would be part of the upcoming update

[idle shoal]

it's part of the passive text of the card meaning that it will be able to be supressed

[sweet berry]

Yes, but it won’t revert to the original unit

It’s a permanent replacement of the card

[idle shoal]

so it'll be stuck on whichever side it is when it gets suppressed?

[sweet berry]

If we are talking about the new bomber, yes

[idle shoal]

also das wrong the card transforms on your turn and enemy turn

[slate blade]

Convert as a mechanic completely changes a card from one thing into another. So when suppressed it will lose all effects and buffs but it’s an entirely new card and won’t turn back into whatever the OG was

For mosquito whatever side is suppressed is what it will remain

[idle shoal]

so- suppression is going to counter the new mechanic too

the unit will switch and then when the enemy suppresses it you just- lose the secondary unit?

[sweet berry]

?

If the opponent say suppressed mosquito on their turn (aka when it’s a fighter) it loses the text to convert back and stays a fighter

[idle shoal]

yeah so you just lose the bomber

[sweet berry]

Yes, but that’s expected

Suppression removes the text

It always has

Why would it be different here?

[idle shoal]

so uh- hear me out

what if we reworked it so you could get your bomber back?

[sweet berry]

That would actually make suppressing it better for the opponent

[slate blade]

Yeah you would be making it easier to kill lol
Which makes suppression stronger since the fighter fights back

[sweet berry]

And talking raw stats, fighter is better

3/3 bomber is worse than 4/4 fighter

[wary wasp]

Bro, the fact that Jaggro is so dominant and that guards are useless is what I've been saying this whole time. But every time I open my mouth, people in this server treat me like I'm an idiot. Preach, brother

[fallow quest]

I get you dude that's what really fucked my grind fm over

[ivory minnow]

1. When were the 3 best decks “tokens, buff, and ramp?” Before winter war came out the best decks were Jaggro, Frontline, and Sov/Italy.

2. This really sounds like you’re trying to play a control deck and you’re finding that your decks are not able to survive against aggro. That is not a problem with the game that’s a problem with your deckbuilding. The top 6 decks right now are

Ger/France aggro
US/France aggro (dragons highroll)
US/France control (3op)
Sov/Italy control
Jaggro
Commandos ramp

That to me doesn’t look like control is unplayable. Control makes up 2/6 decks, aggro makes up 3/6 decks. Seems pretty balanced. Sov/Italy and US/France have found a way to win even through suppression, I’d start taking a look at what they’re doing

[wary wasp]

It's like Jaggro is so strong that not even Control can stop it, and Control is SUPPOSED to naturally stop Aggro decks

[ivory minnow]

Control does stop it. The worst matchup for Jaggro is sov/italy

[fallow quest]

Yea I get you

[wary wasp]

Yet even though you make the perfect choices in trying to stop aggro, they still manage to outvalue you

[fallow quest]

Yea and I can't do anything vs jaggro as sov/italy so yea

[ivory minnow]

I win nearly every match against Jaggro with Soviet Italy

It’s an 80-20 matchup

And when I play Jaggro the matchup I dread the most is sov/italy

If you’re struggling to beat Jaggro with Soviet Italy I’d watch the last big tournament and see what they’re mulliganing in the matchup, how they’re playing it

But it’s heavily favored for sov/italy

[wary wasp]

I've been grinding games with Germany/Finland discard

[ivory minnow]

Germany Finland gets bodied by Jaggro but it demolishes control. Its worst matchup is something like Jaggro and its best matchup is probably Soviet Italy

[wary wasp]

That's why I've been running things like Sudden Strike and Crossfire

... But now they wanna ban all the cards that are good against Jaggro, and make shit like Old Hares

[ivory minnow]

Yeah even still you’re gonna struggle. If discard, a natural value game winner, was able to beat aggro, a deck that is going to dump its entire hand before you discard it, the game wouldn’t be balanced

Germany Finland is a good deck with strong matchups, Jaggro just isn’t one of them

You can get rid of the U-375s, play a bunch of anti-aggro cards to try and get an even match against Jaggro but at that point you’re not playing discard anymore

Discard eats traditional control decks and loses to aggro.

If discard was able to beat both hard aggro and hard control we’d be back in the summer of 2023 with discard being tier 0 and it caused the player count to drop off a cliff

Maybe the unhappiest I’ve ever seen the community

[thin lynx]

yeah, 1 really confused me lol, I was like those WERENT the top decks

It really feels like a lot of suggestions, especially recently, feed on misinfo/misunderstandings/misconceptions about the game/meta

Like again, modern jag lists run like two suppression cards

(depending, ofc)

and it's of course helpful but to say it's holding jaggro up like atlas is... Bizarre, useful utility and soft removal definitely, but we still have isolation and sendai

and lots of ways to remove things otherwise

but nah it really seems like a select few are just angry and borderline venting lol

[idle shoal]

listen recently ive ran a sov/ita control deck (granted it wasn't great) and succeeded against jaggro or other aggro decks a fair amount

to this point tho id like to illustrate a couple of things

1. a singular deck type shouldn't be running the game and it shouldn't feel like rock paper scissors where if you get the wrong match up you are heavily incentivised to give up

2. this thread is about suppression i do have an aggro thread where i made critiques on the play type and my statement there is still one i hold now that aggro makes the match into a playground slugging match

3. suppression should be reworked to accommodate not only the new mechanic coming in (convert) but also so it's not just used as a blanket to cover any problem

4. the only real counter to suppression is to use high stat units however the high stat units have been getting reserved and the only ones left are also high op cost (hence why throp US is good)

5. tokens such as light infantry held a strong weigh over the game with sov being able to use no surrender then the American +1+1 for each infantry (i forgor what it was)

6. ramp was also good things like US/BRIT ramp into heavy bomber production would speed games up as a sorta pseudo aggro

7. buff was also good BRIT having an immense amount of defense increasing cards being able to chuck a high stat into the frontline typically bodying the enemy hq

8. Aggro was kinda mid it had it's moments but overall it lacked a good avenue of removal so it could focus on the enemy hq

9. Frontline was pretty good not exactly excellent but good nonetheless the issue with it was that other decks could get better/more value faster to consume the frontline

10. if 3/6 of the top decks are aggro doesn't that kinda speak to something the top three decks in tournaments could easily be aggro

10. if those are the wrong decks and i was wrong about what decks were good back then im sorry it doesn't take away from the larger point but i will cede those points if i am wrong

11. suppression is an issue with aggro primarily since they can avoid numerous issues that units would bring up without needing to spend the Kredits on removal or anything else

12. suppression isn't just an aggro issue it's a game mechanic not just a deck mechanic it should be changed due to how it severely impacts the gameplay

13. suppression itself isn't holding aggro up to insane heights but it allows it to avoid issues that otherwise would need to be addressed and the soft removal comes at effectively no cost

14. suggestions are talks about the game whether it be mechanics cards or direction these things should be talked about and if there is misinformation then correct it show statistics or something similar to prove the information is wrong then the conversation can proceed from a correct starting point rather than an endless echo chamber

[thin lynx]

1. The first part of this is correct, the second not so much, decks will have counters in the meta. I don't think they should necessarily be HARD counters, but they'll be countered nonetheless, that's just how metas and cards shake out. If you play a deck revolving around doing something and I can stop it, that's normal gameplay

2. But it's the only deck archetype you've mentioned and you also made point 11

3. It accommodates convert, the only convert card it currently effects is the one fighter bomber

4. Another presumption that's just kinda wrong in multiple places, playing high stats doesn't counter suppression, for one. For two how you play around it is a counter, ie playing your threats when you're sure enough it can't be removed, which is how you should play suppression (soft removal) or hard removal regardless

4(2). Tokens doesn't use no surrender and it's main issue when it was super good was alpine with Baran, but it got nerfed

5. Ramp isn't aggro nor psuedo aggro

6. Buff, definitely not Brit defense buff, wasn't good but also wouldn't you want suppression to deal with this?

7. Frontline practically held a spot as the strongest deck in the game since it came out until stuff like choco boys got rotated

8. No, there's only four or so archetypes depending on who you ask (some count mill, tempo, etc) but if aggro isn't the point and you wanted to say it wasn't I'm confused why this was brought up

9. It is soft removal, which is a type of removal, they're spending kreds on it

10. Again, you're telling me it's not an aggro problem but so far you only mention aggro decks using it and it only being unfair for them? I'm confused on what you want to be said

11. I did correct you by telling you that you were wrong, I shouldn't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove yourself right. The burden of proof is on you, else you can really just say whatever.

[ivory minnow]

Literally everything that the most experienced people in the community (me, mvm, funpolice) have been saying proves you wrong. But you’ve come to your conclusion and youre not gonna budge on it.

[thin lynx]

no one is trying to make anyone feel like an idiot or anything but if someone comes in and disagrees it just seems like there's a lot of heel digging without much want to change, even when an assumption is just flat incorrect, the most recent being convert and you saying the unit is RUINED after being suppressed

[slate blade]

I mean Ger/Fin generally lacks any healing (besides Alpenfestung) and has limited guards
It is a deck that is very much an anti control deck more so then an anti aggro deck

It is a control deck the overall archetype structure but isn't one purpose built to beat aggro unlike say Sov/Ita with a much more robust anti aggro package
It's the beat other control decks deck

[slate blade]

Also the OP already left the server but just to get one last word in
There is just always gonna be natural counters to one deck or another. It's just undeniable that some decks will be strong into aggro and some weak into it. You cannot ever get away from deck matchups being varied until the game has exactly 1 deck everyone plays and it's 50/50 winrate wise

It isn't an inherent flaw that aggro is both strong and relevant in a meta
Especially as it's numerous aggro decks doing so and there is still a variety of midrange/control decks running around as well
Generally it's an issue when a singluar deck starts beating everything and nothing can stop it (what is called a Tier 0 deck essentially)
And as said stuff like German/France decks will probably end up eating a nerf at some point as it is a bit to strong atm

But suppression just isn't the reason behind aggro being strong
As I said quite a while ago it's units that are very strong and snowbally
Suppression is not to different then other very cheap removal that has existed in the past and it retains downsides like every type of cheap removal

[thin lynx]

really sucks to leave over this, I don't think anyone was being particularly harsh and no one was being insulting to them, unless I missed something

[wary wasp]

I just think Suppression effects are way too accessible in general, and that's one of the reasons why Aggro is so damn strong, and why guards are basically useless in this meta

[sweet berry]

I’d strongly disagree, there’s only 4 suppress cards worth running, one from a nation that’s not very good atm, and another that’s usually not even used for suppression (prod order), that really only leaves us with suppression (the card) and m10, us midrange/aggro not being popular means that really it’s only suppression that sees any play

[wary wasp]

Well Suppression (as a card) definitely needs a nerf. Nothing hurts more than being bombarded by a full frontline of cheap-ass Jaggro units, and then the guard you placed to protect yourself is made useless for 1K while they pelt you with an army of 0 op cost units. It's like I'm being punished for making the right move, as if the opponent is saying "Ha ha, you're not allowed to play the game, fucking loser! KYS"

Like... What can anybody even do against that? Guards were made to protect you from aggro, and now almost none of them are even worth running

OP raised some very good points about the state of the game that I've been saying for a very long time

[sweet berry]

if you look at it, suppression(the card) isn’t really very good unless you strongly build around it, patrol is 2k deal 2 and remove guard smoke etc, this is 1k less to remove text and deal no dmg (aggro dosen’t usually use it to remove text), really not worth it if you can’t get the draw at least semi-consistently

And as per guards, people strongly underrate guards as a whole atm

Because ramp really only runs 4 for example, so 75% of their guards are likely getting suppressed, but really all you need is some good guards and you’re fine, as an example, one of the decks I’ve been playing is legions, because it’s simply too many guards to go through, and even other less guard heavy decks, you need just a bit more guards

[wary wasp]

So then how do you feel about a lot of the anti-aggro cards being rotated out of the meta in favor of MORE aggro-friendly cards?

[sweet berry]

A bit too early to judge, but also I feel the game is moving in a good direction with the decks being pushed, feels like they are moving away from making decks like ramp slightly too good at surviving vs aggro, now we’re headed into a world were aggro is a consideration in deck building and not an afterthought, because atm decks like ramp and heavy control are a bit too good at dealing with aggro for my liking (as a control player btw)

[wary wasp]

Really? Because I play control and ramp a lot, and I almost always get bodied by aggro decks

[nocturne saffron]

And now most of good us fully repair cards are rotating

[terse tendon]

What happened to the op

[marble ermine]

You know, since Victory Banner will restore a unit's base condition, maybe that implies the start of a W if we get more cards that do so. Eventually.

Right now VB is way to expensive and it is elite for this particular purpose, but hopefully a sign of things to come in terms of suppress counterplay.

Still can be used for counterplay by sheer numbers.

E.g. you play Kv-1 1941. Opponent plays duress to it (because in typical suppress playstyle, they didn't really bring a proper counter). Next turn you play VB to it, and not only does it get its ability back, but all the other suppressed units your opponent didn't think they had to remove now become Kv-1s. If that's a lot of units, that's gg because no way can they suppress all of that without a Finnish ally or if they blew both white death already.

At least forces them to actually play smart, which they rarely have to bother with.

More tools to reply to suppress may be the way to go.

[dreamy remnant]

I usually get bodied by control decks at turn 7 (having 0 cards on board and hand)

[thin lynx]

sov it control is one of the strongest decks rn

if you get bodied i mean idk what to tell you fam

it's way too early to say that some anti aggro cards are getting rotated and thus the game is RUINNNEDD

not to mention the fact that everyone hated glam

anyone trying to say the next meta will be xyz when we still dont have so many cards revealed is either being alarmist or trying to make a puzzle with missing pieces and it's definitely not good faith to say it'll be this way or that way and complain so early

[thin lynx]

heal, removal, guards still slow them down

suppression is run at like 1-2 copies, if you have more than one guard it's unlikely theyll be able to suppress it

glam is still super playable for deploy, stuff like black watch also makes suppressing it with orders more expensive, etc

[marble ermine]

A quick test of a light infantry deck I made and posted on Sov deck lists, I've been keeping track of units around turn 7 and it's usually anywhere from okay-ish to awesome

Not good as is, but right now it's basically just a testbed for when the update drops.

Test range has been between 10k and 5k at FM a few days ago

As a side benefit, some Jaggro decks have been surrendering early even now

(Okay-ish being like 3 or 4 total, awesome being a full frontline with more on the support line)

[marble ermine]

Most of the time somewhere in between

[ivory minnow]

We’ve established that the deck you play the most is Germany/finland which is extremely busted vs control and extremely bad vs aggro. Decks like Soviet Italy and US/France are insanely good at surviving aggro, playing Jaggro against Soviet Italy is worse than pounding your head into a brick wall. It’s so unbelievably free for sov/italy

In general the aggressive decks as of late have been shifting towards a midrange gameplan with blitz doctrine because going full aggro just isn’t viable right now

Jaggro isn’t even usually playing the 1k Yokosuka, if that gives you an idea

And Japan/soviet covert is probably a better deck than Jaggro 💀 💀 💀

[fast marsh]

guys chill