#game is too meta heavy: possible solutions

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

limpid lance
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currently the meta is heavily geared towards things like light infantry spam, commonwealth decks, etc.

this makes the game very unplayable for those who want to try something new, and perhaps be competitive with a deck that’s not meta.

as of now if you want to counter a specific meta, you have to be very lucky to draw cards that counter them. it’s always going to be random, so even if you have the tools in your deck to counter, it might be too late before you even get to use them.

solution:
what i suggest to help alleviate this is to allow players to actually pick their starting hand. this way people actually have a good chance to stand up against meta decks and maybe even enjoy their experimental decks.

conversely, this should be balanced because both sides get to pick their starting hand, and when the game starts, card draw shall be normal (aka random).

the idea here to give players a fair chance against each other by letting them start the game they want to first, but otherwise the flow will still be the same albeit a bit more fair

candid kestrel
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An existence of meta is a fascinating topic, but let's talk about the recommended solution in particular.
Players choosing starting hands is a hard no from me, as it favours those fast highroll decks above everything else bc they wouldn't be highroll anymore if u can just choose it. And just combo in general. Also, even tho both player would do this, generally this would highly favour the player starting. As there r ways to take the board in a way that the opponent can't really come back from even if he were to chose a hand. And those (as of now) highly unlikely scenarios would become a given based on this recommendation, so the game would become whoever starts wins (unless they r insanely bad). Resulting in just a few sure fire win on start decks which would be a meta and a tury horrible one.
So this recommendation wouldn't eliminate meta, but make a truly horrible one at that.
On an added note, the intro of this suggestion makes me concerned as well, as the mentioned decks (LI, and all the different decks with CW somehow piled together) not only aren't the strongest ones in the game rn, there r good ways to counter them that r likely to work (even soft counters). They do not dominate the meta so there is no need for a fundamental change in mechanics to stop it from happening.

candid kestrel
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On the existence of meta.
The absence of meta would mean, that all decks have the same power while there shouldn't be any counters either so one couldn't just ride on a trend to victory. Now some decks could still be more common even than, but that would not result in stuff generally associated with meta like winning more for e.g. (which is the important part of the notion imo). But what would this leave us with? A collectable game where deck building is meaningless, bc whatever u throw together, it would be basically the same. Imo, that would be a mistake.
So the aim on the design side is not to make a game void of meta, but to make a game with a popular one. And that's the conversation that usually slides into stuff like diverse and fun, with the occasional shakeups so it wouldn't be stale and would hopefully keep people around more.
Now I brought this up for a simple reason (other than I like the topic). In my first comment I've detailed why this suggestion wouldn't achieve it's goal. In this comment I've noted why the set goal is misguided.

mighty stone
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T2: War Machine
T3: Southern plan
T4: Southern plan again

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Definitely fun when my opponent handlock me by kredit denial every time

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And they have much more kredit to torture you now

queen raptor
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this is based post

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let me KD harder

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i approve

odd radish
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While I share your concerns about the meta, your solution would only worsen the problem

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Only a careful balancing of all cards can make the meta less heavy

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Even then, elite heavy decks and certain archetypes will still be more effective; but a meta with a larger range of viable decks would mean more fun for all, wouldn't you agree

late lichen
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You can't ever really get a game that doesn't have a meta

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people getting to pick their own hand is just going actually worsen the game because several decks create incredibly oppressive scenarios if they get the perfectr opener

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and the game will esesntially just become "X deck wins unless you play Y counter deck"

mighty stone
torn locust
# candid kestrel On the existence of meta. The absence of meta would mean, that all decks have th...

What a wonderful comment - thoughtful, insightful, educational and well presented! Thanks for sharing!

For what it's worth I'd like to see a meta where Aggro. Midrange, Control and Combo are all viable. Stall and KD decks that prevent the opponent actually playing the game I can do without as they are not fun imho.

The only issue with this in a Bo1 format is that games become very match up dependant. Personally I'd like a Bo3 option like in MTG as this allows for my version of a balanced meta with either 3 different decks or a side board. As Kards has kards that are very sideboard friendly - players can't gain life for Aggro decks for example - I actually think this could be an interesting option to explore. This also makes it easier for new players to play ompetitively as you only need 1 deck and not 3.

queen raptor
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a sacrifice im willing to take

mighty stone
small iris
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probably someone will figure out a consistent grotesque high roll

queen raptor
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based

scenic furnace
# late lichen You can't ever really get a game that doesn't have a meta

Yup.
Even if all the cards in Kards were perfectly balanced it would require everyone to play each deck type equally all the time for there to be no meta.
The moment one type of deck becomes even slightly more played a meta develops to counter it.
Human nature to do something different will cause this to happen.
This is how a game like Rock, Paper, Scissors (Rochambeau, Roshambo) which technically is equal odds can develop a meta.

The key as others have stated is to make the meta fun.
For Kards that likely means

  • 3+ S Tier (strongest) decks and 3+ A tier (2nd strongest) decks
  • Each deck is unique in what they do and play style i.e. aggro, mid-range, control, combo etc.
  • Most of the active player base has access to at least 3 of the S/A tier options with at least 1 in the S tier.

Given the recent Feb. qualifiers it looks like the meta is in a relatively healthy place (I don't know about player base deck access).
There's multiple S tier and A tier deck types that each do different things.
That being said even a good meta will get stale (human nature to do something different) and need a mix up.
In a healthy meta there can still be problem Kards or those most of the player base does not like (looking at you Monsoon Rot).

delicate parcel
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Meta is good, but I just dislike winter war meta

ivory aurora
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Hierarchy is inevitable and necessary, you just don’t want a meta that’s too narrow.

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Rock < Rock paper Scissors < rock paper scissors lizard Spock

tulip nest
tulip nest
# ivory aurora Rock < Rock paper Scissors < rock paper scissors lizard Spock

rock paper scissors uses it's narrow meta well because its often tied to stakes. there is so many different ways to engage in rock paper scissors. Kards could have a very wide meta, specific decks would have less of a clear edge over other decks......but then what? Kards doesn't give the players anything besides these decks in terms of gameplay. It's bad game design from the foundation. My favorite part of the game is the theme, but everything else is just a basic tcg. To be fair, the point of a basic tcg isn't for fun - its for income. its just a successful business model.

amber dirge
ivory aurora
ruby obsidian
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While I oppose the proposed solution, I fully support the complaint behind it

limpid lance
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round two: in ranked people can see which nation and ally are about to be played before a match begin. actual cards within the deck will not be revealed

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let people choose which decks they will play before the match starts

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kinda like a lobby

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this way rng is completely out of the equation whether or not your deck will be demolished or not

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because you and your opponent will pick decks that will have a better fighting chance against each other

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game mechanics are not impacted by this at all, it’s literally just a competitive pre-game lobby

spring fulcrum
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is it sequential picking?

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like i pick, then you pick?

limpid lance
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it could be

candid kestrel
# limpid lance round two: in ranked people can see which nation and ally are about to be played...

with 2 players involved, there is no good way of doing this.
a, either one has a clear disadvantage (for eg he chooses what to play first). And how will the system decided who will be the guy with the clear disadvantage? Either way, it sounds way worse than what we have rn.
or b, we make an elaborate way where u can't effectively counterpic ur opponent in particular in that lobby. U know what that would achieve? The thing we currently have now.
So this addition at best is a waste of development time with the slight play experience downgrade of making it more complicated to q. At worst it'll make things worse on top of that.

limpid lance
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what i envision is like a pregame lobby

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both sides have 15 seconds to pick their own deck simultaneously while being able to see what each other’s nation and ally is

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this can let both players pick decks that would go well against each other

candid kestrel
limpid lance
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i mean, currently the only control you have over this is basically playing a deck and just hope whoever you go against won’t have deck that will immediately counter you on the spot

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like i would hope that if im playing a slow deck that i dont go against japan

candid kestrel
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This might help some funky pairings, but more than likely it'll be a reflex game of last second counterpicking. Basically throwing a minigame on top of Kards that'll effect ur win probability a lot.

limpid lance
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mm that’s a good point

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unless there’s a solution to that though i don’t really enjoy the randomness of a competitive game mode

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but i guess that’s just how most card games work lol

spring fulcrum
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its not very random

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thats the point of a meta lmao

spring fulcrum
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now ill just make like three decks made to counter other things and swap on your fancy pregame lobby that no other card game ive seen has upon seeing my enemy is playing, as an example, Japan main and germany ally, obvious signal for jaggro

foggy coyote
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Me starting the game with 4 554th and hasty reinforcements 🙂

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3 554th experimental flight and g4m1

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Hell there are so many ways to exploit this abysmal idea to just get an early lead

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Some decks would just absolutely dominate regardless of what enemy chooses

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Instead of making the game less meta heavy this garb idea would make the game unplayably unfair

livid echo
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oi make more draft options, thats the funnier thing to play for some people, both newcomers and pros who wants some challenge

amber dirge
limpid lance
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obviously if you’re starting the round you’re gonna pick more aggressive cards in your hand

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but if you’re starting second you get to pick a defensive hand (if you choose to) to effectively stop them

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especially if it’s jaggro

spring fulcrum
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gods most well thought out suggestion

limpid lance
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say i don’t get the first turn, and im playing against an early frontline deck but i chose to have a 4 awoken giants or whatever equivalent, i could effectively handle their push

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normally in other cases you would have to pray that you even get 1 awoken giant

spring fulcrum
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you're just describing a mulligan

limpid lance
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yeah but this one guarantees the hand you want

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both sides are able to decide what hand to have, thus both sides get to have a fair start

small iris
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This means only high roll decks are playable

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It's just strongest highroll that wins

limpid lance
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but you’d also be making compromises with what cards you start off with just to have those high roll cards

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if you choose to start with cw and a bunch of healing, then you won’t really have mass removal off the start for an aggressive deck

small iris
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Commonwealth is not a high roll deck

limpid lance
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i dont really play high roll decks lmfao 😭

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what is then?

small iris
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Something that gets out a ton of units on turn 1 or 2

limpid lance
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so jaggro or american frontline?

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or light infantry spam?

small iris
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554th into Blitzkrieg

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You need to stop a turn 3 lethal

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4x 554th on turn 1 means you HAVE to roll Winter Warfare or similar to not die

trail torrent
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Like this

limpid lance
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thats exactly what i’m thinking about though

small iris
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Most decks can't respond to that and become unplayable

limpid lance
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the way it would be fair is to have the defending player have the hand they want for a situation like this

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if i was playing a slower deck i would fear this situation the most, and would therefore choose early removal cards in my starting hand to deal with this

limpid lance
queen raptor
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holy shit yall have been fighting about this for 10 years

odd radish
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When will we move on to less memey topics

queen raptor
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these are k*rds players

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they dont leave the basement or shower

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they will never move on

odd radish
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They forever dwell in loathing

limpid lance
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what’s a shower?

odd radish
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Case in point

limpid lance
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???

odd radish
limpid lance
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lmfao i was playing along i knew what that means

odd radish
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Oh ok

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Anyway just nerf baranovichi and monsoon rot and meta will fix itself

spring fulcrum
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most average attention span