#NERF MONTY

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

solar tartan
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While many players enjoy playing this card, it seemingly has crossed the line of causing a bad gaming experience. We have received many complaints through various feedback channels regarding this card. We would like to keep this card useful and good, but it needs to be much less annoying.

monty.png
patent flower
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change text to "pin 3 random enemy units"

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problem solved KEKW

paper magnet
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pinning 3 random units would still be good tbh

patent flower
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well it's an elite so can't instantly make it garbage

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I guess KEKW

paper magnet
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why do you think its garbage?

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if the enemy has 3 units it still just pins everything

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very good value for 1k

patent flower
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I mean

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There would be butthurt brits crying about it

paper magnet
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ahh very good reason. maybe buff it instead KEKW

patent flower
pallid basalt
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what about pin all enemy units in the frontline

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that might stall the enemy well enouf while it's support line can still move and fire, so that u wont see all ur support line pinned and not able to play units

paper magnet
pallid basalt
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ah nvm lol

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but yea strafing isn't a bad card at least, quite balanced compared to monty

crude basin
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Pin all units plus the draw effect would be fine

pallid basalt
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that's the same? or u mean pin all in front then draw

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cuz yea that it doesnt spend a card as it draws back another

patent flower
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how about no draw at all

pallid basalt
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well i feel it's annoyin cuz pin, not draw

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i doubt removing the draw calms the crowd

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so i suggest, "At enemy's turn, all units in and moving into the frontline is pinned"

crude basin
pallid basalt
paper magnet
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brits never hit themselves. they can even control a monsoon and only reduce enemies to 1 while being unharmed

pallid basalt
patent flower
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so it's a cm but better

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wheeze

potent barn
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Ok how about this "Enemy units deployed or added last turn are Pinned." It still can bog down the enemy maybe add the draw

pallid basalt
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so if u draw monty too late it cant stop anythin then

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like if the enemy has set the board and u dont have monty on hand this turn, the next turn wouldnt monty be too late and useless?

potent barn
pallid basalt
potent barn
pallid basalt
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tru ig

potent barn
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"Enemy units deployed or added last turn are Pinned. Draw a card."

pallid basalt
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well like ig it can be?

potent barn
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@patent flower

pallid basalt
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well ig it can actually work if u hold it in hand, and wait for the right turn to pin the right units

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gud enouf for 1k

potent barn
pallid basalt
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lol

pallid basalt
potent barn
pallid basalt
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yup, so it's kinda limited to infantry and tank, but as long as the opponent uses them monty can stale the opponent from attackin with them

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tho it cannot pin artillery or air units

potent barn
patent flower
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hmmmmmmmmmmmm

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maybe?

potent barn
blissful urchin
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1k pin all with a conditional draw, like come on

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how did it take this long for people to catch on that monty is over the top

paper magnet
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it didnt take long. its broken forever, but devs refuse to touch it for years

blissful urchin
summer valve
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1k pin target unit draw a card. I don't think anyone could argue that's not a worth while effect while dealing with most of the issues the card currently causes

little crag
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what if ^ but instead of draw, it heals a bit?

pallid basalt
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more heals for brit let's goooooooo

patent flower
patent flower
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oh

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forgot bot doesn't work there

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naval power it was

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also a cancer card btw lol

little crag
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oh right, derp

potent barn
nimble wagon
cinder cloud
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"if you have more units than the oppo, pin one unit and draw a card; if you have less or equal number of units than the oppo, pin all units without drawing the card"

potent barn
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Somebody dislike emote this bruh

blissful urchin
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brit main spotted

calm obsidian
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monty make all my crappy deck more bearable

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thanks to monty and shelling I can play sonia and cromwell

carmine river
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Pin all enemy units. If 3 or less👈 units are Pinned, draw a card.

potent barn
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"Enemy units deployed or added last turn are Pinned. Draw a card."

outer gorge
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If enemy has more units than you pin all enemy units. Draw a card

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Good against aggro

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If you have board control useless, but you still draw a card

paper magnet
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" pin a unit. draw a card" done

outer gorge
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I thinks that good, but idk

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It still kinda feels weak

paper magnet
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drawing a card for 1k is already a good deal. look at cards like vive la resistance, sickle, zhukov all 3 are commonly seen. then you have more conditional draw that sees play as well, like awoken giant, expansion, or lurking danger.
if it really needs something more because "its the mighty monty" it could deal 1 dmg to the unit (i dislike it cause it would just create a better version of desert rats) or could heal HQ for 2 on top, but anything more would just be over the top.

outer gorge
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Yeah thats true

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I think pin a unit draw a card would be good

patent flower
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very yes in fact

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done this way it instantly becomes actually reasonable

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unlike the clearly degenerate one we still have today

potent barn
patent flower
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eh zhukov is fine

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I mean, ye don't want a full line of soviets blitzing in yer face right? KEKW

calm obsidian
blissful urchin
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brit main when their 1k pin all with a conditional draw is being suggested to get nerfed (unplayable)

patent flower
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brit main where there be people suggesting bringing his gamebreaking kerds down to tolerable level KEKW

calm obsidian
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Aggro main when a card stop them

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( it's litteraly game breaking)

patent flower
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eh monty is bonkers even without aggro enemy

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99 times out of 100 it's 1k "take an extra turn" and that be pure bullshit

blissful urchin
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brit main when their "gain a extra turn and draw a card" gets nerfed

calm obsidian
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!desert push

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aggro player when they don't play desert push or rallie

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(nerf monty is the only way)

blissful urchin
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brit players when not everyone has italy as a ally and forcing someone to bring desert push, a otherwise mostly useless card if you're not fighting mass pin just because of monty is horse shit design

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"oh no 2 card out of HUNDREDS slightly counters this blatantly op card! therefore is not op!" (ignores how there's no penalty for the brit player if the enemy removes it since they still got the draw for 1k)

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also desert push only unpins 1 out of, lets say 2 - 4

blissful urchin
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its not worth it

calm obsidian
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shhhh

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let my straw man alone

blissful urchin
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I am gonna cry now

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you should feel ashamed of yourself

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this is cyberbullying

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how could this happen

calm obsidian
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🫂

blissful urchin
carmine river
molten dune
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I feel like some people just enjoy their Jaggro a bit too much. It's a decent card, but unless you are playing it with Japanese pin doesn't damage or destroy anything. Just forces aggro decks to have some sort of backup if they can't win the turn they want.

molten dune
molten dune
jade imp
patent flower
potent barn
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Here's evidence

Screenshot_2022-11-16-23-29-09-51.jpg
solar tartan
patent flower
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And this is what monty is in 99 games of 100

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And that is why it should not be

crude basin
crude basin
patent flower
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Because devs can't into proper balancing that's why KEKW

patent flower
molten dune
# potent barn Here's evidence

For a turn. Again, I don't see the issue with having a backup or the game going one more round. If anything it reduces RNG by allowing more draw, which I would think counts as a good thing. Being locked out same thing: it's one turn. I don't see the problem being Monty working as it does, I see the problem being games that are over by turn 4 all too frequently.

patent flower
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Eh

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Better a game done in 4 turns than being forced to watch another episode of "stall-heal-repeat"

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Saves my time in fact

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Not a jaggro player myself really but still

molten dune
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4 turns is hugely RNG sensitive. Very little of your deck has been drawn, may as well play dice at that point. You've drawn hardly any of your deck

patent flower
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Want something not random? Play chess maybe KEKW

molten dune
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Well... I'd prefer it not be that random. I mean everyone and their mother complains about the RNG from Death From Above. This is way more randomness than that.

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A good play of DfA isn't even random, ideally your opponent only has 1 unit anyway

patent flower
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Yeah people vent because it hits wrong unit every timeKEKW

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But honestly drawing a whole deck is no less random than 20-25% of it

cobalt flicker
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Hos is this still ongoing

patent flower
molten dune
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Oh quite different I would say. There's a huge difference whether you draw any given card at some point but you don't know when, versus it being highly improbable it comes up at all.

cobalt flicker
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Also Monty doesn't stop Jaggro alone

molten dune
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You can strategize around "I don't know when this will happen, but it will probably happen."

patent flower
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Yeeeeeeeeeeeah strategize

molten dune
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It doesn't, I agree. But it does reduce the RNG of extremely short games

cobalt flicker
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It stops self discard from gaining Tempo, I know that much

patent flower
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the hell KEKW

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why bot mad at me

cobalt flicker
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Monty is essentially an auto include if you happens to play Britain and that's not healthy

molten dune
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I do agree with that. But the problem isn't Monty, I think base health needs to be 30, and a few cards (like Commonwealth) should be changed around that.

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Base health at 20 I think is stupid

patent flower
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Base health shouldn't be 30

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really

cobalt flicker
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Also the Monty irl was arrogant, inconsiderate and politically illiterate. I think a good balance change to reflect this would be "You must play no allied nation cards to use Monty"

patent flower
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And cockmonglerwealth is another bullshit card that should not be

cobalt flicker
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Make Monty usable in Mono Britain and he'll be balanced

patent flower
blissful urchin
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stop beating the dead horse

cobalt flicker
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✊ 🐎

patent flower
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Why this bot keeps getting mad at me for speaking the truth

blissful urchin
patent flower
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🐎 🪓

molten dune
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I've made my points and get where the responses are coming from, if it's annoying we don't need to continue

potent barn
cobalt flicker
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Actually I have a good way to balance Monty

blissful urchin
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monty is a 1k pin all with a conditional draw, how do you even defend it

patent flower
blissful urchin
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brit mains when their "gain a extra turn for 1k" gets nerfed (unplayable)

potent barn
cobalt flicker
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"When you play Monty, add MARKET GARDEN to your hand. You must play MARKET GARDEN next turn or take 50 damage to your HQ"

MARKET GARDEN: "Discard 5 cards from your hand, one of them has to be a paratrooper unit and one of them has to be a Polish unit"

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There, Monty balanced.

blissful urchin
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Market Garden : Lose

patent flower
potent barn
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The Brit mains out here trying to not let there get out of jail free card to not be nerfed

blissful urchin
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this card will be played automatically when you could

potent barn
patent flower
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unpin cards are pretty much a meme

blissful urchin
potent barn
blissful urchin
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too niche/only in 2 nations

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1 of them being a minor

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nation

patent flower
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"doesn't stop orders"

looks at teaguzzler kerd list
sees cheap order blockers aplenty

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yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah nice excuse there bud

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oh come on stop pinging me damn bot KEKW

blissful urchin
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also its 1k, how does it need to stop orders to be op

cobalt flicker
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Lemme put it this way.

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Monty is ALWAYS live when you draw into it.
Rally is only live when your opponent Strafes/Shelling/Monty you.

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You see the problem? This game isn't Yugioh, there is no sidedecking.

molten dune
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I've been seeing a lot of order heavy decks (resistance, US order-only, German auto-damage, etc).

outer gorge
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Unpin cards should add permeant unpin

blissful urchin
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that's like saying supply shortage critical damage wasn't op because decks without a lot of units are more or less immune to it (basically order heavy decks)

cobalt flicker
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I'll also remind you that Hearthstone's Monty counterpart, Frostnova, is 3 mana and doesn't draw.

molten dune
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My point is more that if it is rolled back, it should be simultaneously with hyper aggro. I'm up for anything that keeps the total turn count up.

cobalt flicker
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And people moan about Frostnova in that game.

patent flower
blissful urchin
potent barn
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The only stall i accept is Ramp

molten dune
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Honestly, I enjoy playing against the latter more. Especially if you are running discard

blissful urchin
molten dune
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It's not "did my opponent or did they not draw the "I win" combo?"

potent barn
patent flower
blissful urchin
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there is zero engagement fighting things like res or commandos besides removing commandos or ticking yourself with french cards

potent barn
molten dune
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If they didn't, you win easily. If they did (which is improbable), there is little to be done

blissful urchin
potent barn
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I feel like them topdecking a stall card just for them to steal a win you deserve is kind of a BS

patent flower
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and, again, ramp plays units ye can actually interact with

blissful urchin
frozen haven
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Tf does ramp have to do with monty nobanana

molten dune
cobalt flicker
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I should remind everyone the Brits also got another AoE pin that kill things like Betty called Shelling.

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So it's more like skip 3 turns

molten dune
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It disrupts that possibility, doesn';t cause it

patent flower
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simple as that

frozen haven
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Ramp is trash

blissful urchin
patent flower
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decent in a sense of being not toxic degenerate take-extra-turn-for-1k bullshit

molten dune
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Basically, stall is the response to games that end before they even got started

frozen haven
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Monty could do with a nerf but this chat room has devolved beyond that

molten dune
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Or just aggro vs aggro and hope to get lucky

cobalt flicker
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It only did after someone jumped in to defend Monty my dear

patent flower
frozen haven
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It's has been nerfed before I forget when the last nerd was

blissful urchin
molten dune
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I just think aggro decks are far less fun to play against than literally anything else. Being you are literally not playing very long

blissful urchin
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now you need to pin 3 to draw

frozen haven
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It used to deal dmg

blissful urchin
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which changed, basically nothing

patent flower
molten dune
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I mean I agree, it shouldn't be damaging anything

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Just inhibit RNG

cobalt flicker
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Again, Shelling does :)

frozen haven
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Imo it doesn't need the draw aspect of it

cobalt flicker
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and it piles

molten dune
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Yeah, open to changing shelling

blissful urchin
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and shelling is another pile of steaming garbage

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except you can't even debate it

patent flower
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imo this game needs way less stall and unit hate than it has

cobalt flicker
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Shelling in conjunction with Monty is no bueno.

frozen haven
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Shelling is far less problematic than monty lol

blissful urchin
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maybe there's room for debate for monty but if you defend shelling stall deck player spotted opinion ignored

blissful urchin
molten dune
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Bicycle regiment + butt ton of For Honor early is one of many reasons for unit hate

blissful urchin
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you don't need monty to halt aggro

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there's plenty of other options that doesn't cause other decks to suffer

frozen haven
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Monty should receive a nerf but I'm not on board with killing the card

cobalt flicker
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Desert rats kill Bike, Sickle kills Bike, Through the Breach kills Bike, Awaken kills bike, Bike kills Bike

patent flower
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trade literally any cheap kerd into bicycle

cobalt flicker
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Or lmao, guard

frozen haven
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Bike is amazing tf

molten dune
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Desert rats is 5. Games are practically over by then if you haven't stalled

blissful urchin
cobalt flicker
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You're confusing it with Long range desert

blissful urchin
patent flower
molten dune
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oh, yes I am

patent flower
frozen haven
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Sickle is the only good card on tbe list lol

molten dune
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And yes, desert rats is pretty important too.

blissful urchin
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long range desert is that commando card that makes my heart stop

molten dune
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But not enough in isolation

cobalt flicker
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All nations have the ability to deal atleast 1 damage and stop any jaggro turn 1 drop dead in its track. 2 have anti pin

blissful urchin
molten dune
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Monty contributes substantially to the package

patent flower
molten dune
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Not with outmanuever

patent flower
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who tf plays outmaneuver

cobalt flicker
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Outmanuever is 3

blissful urchin
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!outmaneuver

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me when no bot

cobalt flicker
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Bot no work in threads

blissful urchin
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outmaneuver is 2 lol

cobalt flicker
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I stand corrected then

frozen haven
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Desperate measures needs touching on as well imo if we're nerfing monty

blissful urchin
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by then you can kill it definitely

frozen haven
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Dm is busted as

cobalt flicker
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But you can't really outmaneuver then Forhonor or Juggernaut or something on turn 2

patent flower
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Imagine playing juggernaut

molten dune
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I'd be open to desperate measures nerf

patent flower
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Oh wait I do in my meme lol

cobalt flicker
#

Yall forgetting budget players who just started like 3 days ago

patent flower
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and honestly

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if someone bicycle honor me
I'd be KEKW KEKW KEKW

frozen haven
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Bike type 93 is all u need

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Bike and beef turn 1, type turn 2

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Quickest way to make someone surrender on the spot

molten dune
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Forgot honor is 3. I was thinking it was 2, if not 1

cobalt flicker
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Not if you just drop a single guard

patent flower
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sickle bike, winter + sickle beef and 93, any self damage and 2 free 6/6s t3

frozen haven
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Small guards you can just trade effectively into and big guards you type 94 or sendai

cobalt flicker
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Okay, hear me out.

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2 guards.

frozen haven
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If they're small they'll just get traded easily

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If they're big, then it's most likely too late into the game and you won't get the opportunity to play 2

cobalt flicker
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Matsue into Ginga then

frozen haven
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You'll lose when you play vs something that isn't jaggro

molten dune
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Matsue -> Ginga just gets outflank

frozen haven
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Realistically you can't fully tech your decks to beat jaggro cos then you'll lose to other decks

molten dune
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I know, have had it happen multiple times

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If not Sendai

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Real Teaguzzler very well put, thank you

patent flower
frozen haven
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Decks like Germany Italy control are good at dealing with jaggro cos they can and heal to survive the early game

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But atm jaggro is an A tier deck

patent flower
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who tf plays outflank aside from budget players

frozen haven
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So it's generally very strong

molten dune
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Jaggro players in general?

cobalt flicker
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Here is the point where you drop the Soviet card that spawns 2 guard tanks

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and you drop another one

frozen haven
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Mobile defense is obviously good vs jaggro but it won't just win you the game on its own

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Jaggro is an A tier deck atm for a reason

cobalt flicker
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Failing that, Beaufighter -> Chasing Shadow KEKW

patent flower
frozen haven
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Beaufighter frontline catto

cobalt flicker
#

Back to the point tho, Monty bonkers

patent flower
molten dune
#

Feigned is an elite card anyway that you are unlikely to get early

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Decent Jaggro decks don't bank excessively on it

patent flower
frozen haven
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The A tier jaggro deck relies on it atm

molten dune
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Nice, but no guarantee the game will last long enough to even get it

patent flower
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that's why arado exists

frozen haven
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You run 2 orders and arado

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But it is hard to get for a newer player

molten dune
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Idk, I've just been seeing a lot of it

frozen haven
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So I understand not having it

patent flower
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and that's also why ye want 2 or 3 orders at best

frozen haven
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It's a super meta deck but needs a lot of specials and elites

patent flower
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pretty much desperate, bombing raid and feigned

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that's it

frozen haven
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Bike beef 22. Yokosuka arado wirbel

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Are all specials

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It's a very special heavy deck imo

patent flower
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true that

patent flower
molten dune
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I think you need to rephrase that? I think you mean the chance to trigger feigned. There's 40 cards in your deck, how many of them are orders or not doesn't change your chance to get them only you mean unit-based extra draw

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Pretty much the one German unit

patent flower
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arado is guaranteed to draw an order

molten dune
#

Oh right, I was thinking something else for Arado

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Tbh, I tend to hate CCGs for exactly this sort of thing, but I made an exception for Kards because of the WW2 basis. I play a lot of different genres normally.

patent flower
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desperate and bombing raid get a pass because they're actually strong on their own and contribute to yer game plan

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but adding a very conditional removal on top of these 3 is like shooting yer own foot

molten dune
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Yeah, I'm guessing its decks that either can't afford it, or actually want to try something on their own instead of importing a meta deck

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Which tbh, the latter is more me. Just not with Jaggro.

cobalt flicker
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Desperate drawback is kinda bad for some decks, I wouldn't run it in my Self discard since I need my kreds for expensive drops

patent flower
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and even budget players are much more likely to run something like amphibious assault

cobalt flicker
#

But bombing raid is probably staple

molten dune
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Yeah, that one is a lot more common (amphibious assault)

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But I have seen a lot of both

patent flower
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while also conditional it has a broader range of targets

molten dune
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Part of it is I have no interest in looking up meta decks. Makes it a whole lot less fun for me

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I just play what I see honestly

patent flower
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I'm memeing it

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Or throwing t-34s at enemy in bulk

molten dune
#

Honestly, CCGs are just really tricky to balance by their nature. I'm just way happier to deal with a stall deck than an aggro deck honestly.

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At least you have time to draw some stuff and see what happens if you have any counters (which ideally you should at least have something).

patent flower
#

For me it's in reverse tbh

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Might be personal experience I guess

molten dune
#

Or just a matter of personality. Everyone has their favorite flavor, so to speak.

cobalt flicker
#

Okay, I found another way to nerf Monty

patent flower
#

Point is, if I see jaggro, it won't last long, 2-3 minutes and I'm free to do a next game
If I see brits, it's half an hour wasted on looking at stalls/heals/emote spam and that obnoxious sound effect

cobalt flicker
#

"After playing Monty, add 3 CHURCHILL" to your opponent's hand.
Churchill: Countermeasure, 0K. "When your opponent deploys a unit, moves a unit, attacks with a unit or gives an order, counter it and destroy that card "

patent flower
molten dune
#

Emote spam is stupid, but as I think we have seen here some people have a disrespectful, spoiled disposition.

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Though honestly, if my experiences are going to be exclusively bad ones, at that point I just stop playing.

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I just find it more interesting to draw more and see if I have an effective workaround that just takes time to reach, or to sit there wondering whether if I had just drawn different cards if that would have worked.

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Strategy is just far more engaging to me if more cards are drawn in the first place

patent flower
#

funny how ye want strategy but defend a card that requires literally zero thinking/effort then

molten dune
#

Because it is easy to overestimate as well. You only get 40 cards. It is not a unit, and it does no damage to anything. If aggro were less common, it would not be so important. That said, if it were to be nerfed, I'd be up for removing the conditional draw.

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It buys time, that's it really

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The units are still there.

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US orders, for example, is heavily reliant on maximizing health to own base and damage to enemy base with just the right amount of destruction to get by

patent flower
#

what

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there's literally no us order reliant on face health to work

molten dune
#

You haven't faced US orders only?

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I've come across it a few times. Pretty rare, but I have faced it. Not truly "orders only," but like a tiny handful of units

patent flower
#

unitless burn yes I saw it and no it's not "reliant on face health"

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more like "reliant on all the unit hate in the world, with just right amount of face heal to stabilize"

molten dune
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That's not what I said, sorry if you misunderstood. Facehealth vs enemy base health. As a ratio.

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Exactly

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"maximizing health to own base and damage to enemy base with just the right amount of destruction to get by"

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Okay, well I suppose on how you look at "barrage," it does both

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A lot of those cards can do either

patent flower
#

if anything, maximizing face health is done by a) spirit of rome meme build and b) brits, because heals everywhere and cockmonglerwealth aka another degenerate zero effort card exists

molten dune
#

Again, I meant maximizing the advantage. Not the health itself. Mostly derived through damage, but it's a lot of duel-purpose cards

patent flower
potent barn
patent flower
#

and mobi is brit main anyway

molten dune
#

But yeah, doesn't help you much against discard, "burn" I guess (honestly idk the standard terms, I have mostly stayed away from the general community until recently, but presuming it refers to order based damage), Commonwealth/stall, ramp, etc. It slows when you will take the damage but:

Against discard, if you don't have cards left in your hand anyway it doesn't matter. And you are pretty likely to lose it anyway.
Against burn, they don't need units because they just kill your base with orders anyway.
Against commonwealth, you they don't need to attack with units as long as your base doesn't get above 20 and theirs doesn't drop below 30.
Ramp still had a butt ton more kredit slots than you, so more cards in hand isn't a big deal. And if it is early, perfect chance to just play more ramp anyway.

#

But aggro is very popular, so it slams that pretty hard by preventing early victory

patent flower
#

well

#

unitless decks are relatively rare

#

and everything else plays at least some units so monty is never truly a dead card

molten dune
#

Commonwealth isn't unitless, but many of the units you have (such as Honey) don't have to attack to be useful

patent flower
#

and the more units enemy plays the more obnoxious it becomes

molten dune
#

Same with a lot of others

patent flower
molten dune
#

There's a ton of units that don't have to attack to be useful

#

Anyway, I'm an American and it's 11:10 in my timezone, so I should get to bed. I have an early morning tomorrow.

patent flower
#

it's less retarded than it originally was but still

patent flower
molten dune
#

Good morning to you then

patent flower
#

thanks

jade imp
#

ok u want to beat aggro decks? just play mare nostrum, simple

#

and as for unitless decks, any aggro destroys it, thats why no one plays it

#

like, as far as i can remember, there is not one other cards in this game that can completely stop your turn except for full board pin cards, and monty at 1k is the best of them

molten dune
#

I can beat them, but I end up playing the same decks over and over. They usually surrender by turn 5 or 6.

#

My favorite matches are the ones that run into fatigue damage, rare as they are.

#

And pretty much any deck is going to be inconsistent, because there is no guarantee of any given draw.

#

Tier 2 guard? Often not drawn. Mare Nostrum? Often not drawn. A fair bit of any given package has to be devoted to early aggro to be viable

#

Monty is one more tool in that arsenal

#

More than 1k isn't useful where the need is. Not pinning everything means something will probably receive a ton of buffs before attacking. Conditional draw, not strictly necessary but it does help reduce the impact of RNG.

jade imp
pallid widget
#

Like 4 or 5 or more Kr

#

I think

jade imp
#

GeNeRaLs ArE sUpPoSeD tO sTaY aT 1 kReDiT cOsT

calm obsidian
#

monty is based and balanced

patent flower
#

and calling such a cancerous card based is cringe

clever grove
twilit wolf
twilit wolf
olive creek
#

I don't think they're too fond of balance changes that break thematic symmetry like that, although sometimes they do it anyway like with Airlanding Brigade

jade imp
olive creek
jade imp
#

ohhh right

nimble wagon
#

Change it to 3K so it’s like Convoy but, instead of drawing 2 cards, you draw 1 and pin all. I think that’s still more than fair.

paper magnet
#

i think thats still busted

nimble wagon
#

Agreed, but it's not like the devs are ever going to change it without some serious pressure from the community. Even then, probably not lol

pallid widget
#

I think if Monty is a lot hated by people it's only because for 1 Kr, a whole army is stuck for 1 turn

#

For only 1

paper magnet
#

even shelling is played mainly for the pin and borderline busted

crude basin
#

My suggestion for monty:

New_Monty.png
weary kernel
nimble wagon
#

Random, most likely

outer gorge
#

It's good early, mid and late game

#

It being the only card that can do that

#

At an extremely low cost

#

For example Leopold, sends all back to hand

#

But it costs 10K

#

Sea borne aswell

#

Throws enemy from the frontline, at 9k

#

I think a good fix for Monty could be "pin all enemy units, if you less or equal units on board, draw a card"

#

It doesn't deserve to be nerfed to the ground

#

I think my change, it would still be an auto include, but at least it would situational to an extent

cobalt flicker
#

Good comparison is Mud

#

Mud is 4k and only stop ground, and doesn't draw, and also doesn't stop movements

crude basin
pallid widget
#

! Mud

weary kernel
patent flower
crude basin
patent flower
crude basin
cobalt flicker
#

make it not affect air is a start but the air meta is dominant as it is

patent flower
#

but in reality it pretty much would only buff britair and screw over anything else KEKW

cobalt flicker
#

yea

crude basin
#

Then only pin air unitsKEKW

jade imp
cobalt flicker
#

right

#

por

#

que

pallid widget
#

When we think

#

Tora Tora Tora cost 2kr and deal 1 damages to every troops, Naval Operation cost 3kr and deal 1 damages AND pin,

So the pin cost 1kr more, so Monty is legit I guess XD

patent flower
#

nah

calm obsidian
#

based allecto

jade imp
#

and naval op only hit ground units

calm obsidian
#

unlike monty

#

thus it's overpriced

#

monty 0 k when

#

😏

pallid widget
#

XD

jade imp
#

pinned hq?

calm obsidian
#

yee

#

can't give order this turn

pallid widget
potent barn
#

A good Monty is a nerfed Monty

Untitled749_20230202015628.png
twilit wolf
twilit wolf
#

If you compare Monty to like shelling, it seems that it takes 4 k enemy lose kredit, 1 kredit pin enemies, plus 1 dmg to all enemy units. I think monty draw is the prob tbh

molten dune
# crude basin My suggestion for monty:

At least 3, if not 4 (and presuming you mean enemy units and this isn't a self-hit). Then maybe, but that's pushing it when Jaggro can chuck units like nothing, and this doesn't even damage anything.

Alternatively, maybe something like "pin all units that cost 5 kredits or less". Ramp should be basically unaffected, with the exception of 5th cali

crude basin
molten dune
#

Usually the issue comes from buff orders before the attack, such as with combined arms (which I haven't seen so much of lately), for honor, ura, etc.

Or just sheer numbers, such as full frontline full support line, which Jaggro can generally pull off if it has to go that late and they pull feigned retreat.

#

The more I think about it though, the more I would actually prefer 5k or less, encourage high cost cards a bit more.

#

Also makes some sense thematically, with Monty's difference in performance between El Alemein vs Market Garden.

#

But if a ramp deck has a B29 staring you straight in the face, you're sol

#

Also less brutal with Brit/Jpn pin, not that it's common enough to worry about now anyway.

#

Conditional draw being removed as well would be something I'd be comfortable with in addition if it made the difference in community acceptance.

crude basin
molten dune
#

Well, at that point I think we have to agree to disagree that it is even a problem. Cheap cards are exactly what's needed to stop aggro, and a vast arsenal at that.

Considering Spooz points out in his elite cards analysis that 8k-9k cards might not have the chance to be played anyway, I'd say aggro especially but to some extent "midrange" is the problem. Why have such expensive cards that, in a vast majority of cases, are at best a last chance if not used in conjunction with either ramp or countermeasures? The latter plenty of people would like to see nerfed too.

#

Like literally "These cards exist, just don't use them unless ramp or cm"

#

That doesn't sound balanced to me

#

Not to mention "F- aggro" is pretty much Britain's theme, and even then if they capitalize on that it ends up being all they can do quite often

#

Monty reduces the card count needed to hold off aggro

#

So instead of multiple pins you have 1 big one for cheap

cobalt flicker
#

Look, just use my balance suggestions for Monty

molten dune
#

Almost works.

Problem with only air: doesn't fix 90% of aggro decks.

Problem with only ground: Brit air, as pointed out.

Still, the latter would be good enough for me, but apparently unsatisfactory to some of your peers on the same side of the fence if I understand correctly.

#

In the latter case, the other cards should be able to make up the difference

crude basin
molten dune
#

I'd be open to some self-harm tradeoff, though not base damage: defeats the point

#

We do have a self discard, new version of Emergency Measures

#

Discard a unit from hand? Goes with the personality

#

Also makes it more awkward with commandos

molten dune
#

Also, for an elite card it isn't excessive for value. Desert rats does damage, TTT will outright kill all 1defense units (and that's without mentioning imperial glory synergy), and naval bombardment pins and does damage.

#

Desert rats is limited, other two common. Monty is a one off

crude basin
#

Some possible british self-harm ideas:
-Discard a card type or something (maybe not on theme but still works)
-Increase the cost of an order or orders in your hand (more on theme and I think it fits with monties more passive approach until the time is right)
-Counter your next order (kinda similar to the one above but much more punishing, not sure if commandos trigger when the order is countered)

molten dune
#

I like the first two

#

Third is a bit wonky

#

If the order is random, could make it a super dangerous card with commonwealth, which would be nice

jade imp
crude basin
molten dune
#

I know but seems to me it would probably be vulnerable to interaction bugs. If it used countermeasure mechanics to function, I could see imperial glory (said the right thing this time I believe) still working. I could also see issues with the counter not working fully, such as commandos still firing, etc. Just so unusual, I would think it would be vulnerable to bugs.

jade imp
#

there is no order called imperial glory tho?

#

these are all the imperial related searchs

imperial_decree.png imperial_order.png imperial_strength.png
molten dune
#

*Imperial Strength, my bad

crude basin
cobalt flicker
#

Discards a Spitfire for RAF ground crew

molten dune
#

Also, I meant commandos triggering on the countered order

devout dragon
#

how about Pin all units 4 cost and under = if 3 or more are pinned, draw a card

patent flower
#

no

crude basin
#

yeah no that doesnt fix much

patent flower
#

there was a suggestion me actually likes

#

pin a unit draw a kerd

#

still very strong I guess
but not degenerate 1k take extra turn

crude basin
patent flower
#

well more or less every card can be summarized as X but better (or X but worse)

#

assuming it doesn't have a weird one of a kind effect

crude basin
#

Now that I think about it the only direct upgrades I can think of are:

HIMEJI REGIMENT < 6TH NAVAL BRIGADE
and
POLIKARPOV PO-2 < SWORDFISH MK I

As far as I know there arent any more where there isnt even a slight difference that makes one slightly better in a situation.

#

the only difference is rarity which I think is a terrible way to balance

patent flower
#

POLIKARPOV PO-2 < POLIKARPOV PO-2-II

#

alright I'm memeing thereKEKW

patent flower
#

at least that's how I see this

crude basin
olive creek
#

Autokanone, Invader, Blenheim for example

#

There are no strictly better orders or countermeasures

cobalt flicker
#

What is

patent flower
#

well I can argue naval power is better desert rats KEKW

olive creek
#

like Secret Operatives vs Interception

calm obsidian
#

desert rat do one damage

#

personnaly I like both and often run both lmao

#

also interception stop commonwealth, air blitz and bismarck lol

#

in my commando deck I run three naval power and one desert rat

paper magnet
#

instead of monty? KEKW

calm obsidian
#

nah alongside monty lmao

molten dune
# crude basin yes they are "better" but they arent straight upgrades and personally I hate wit...

Rarity certainly is a big deal. Pretty big difference between common tora tora tora and elite desperate measures versus if it were elite tora tora tora and common desperate measures. Especially for the early game, more cards = more chances to get it or mulligan for it in your starting hand. Being elite greatly reduces the chance of Monty in the starting hand as opposed to something like blockade.

#

Basically, it means it's foolish to trust it as a standalone response to aggro. If the game goes long enough, you might draw it at some point.

#

Versus a full set of greyhounds, you have a decent chance of getting at least one in your hand right away, at least by comparison. Doesn't need nearly as much supplementing.

#

And part of why 5th Cali is so hated, honestly as a special card it wouldn't be so bad

#

They just keep coming

cobalt flicker
#

Okay but counterpoint: Monty exist along Shelling

potent barn
coarse pine
#

It should be tho it costs 2 more and it’s an elite

devout dragon
#

is britain more powerful than other nations? Is it more powerful because of monty and shelling? All it does is stall, it doesn't actually remove units on its own or anything

cobalt flicker
#

It stalls until you draw until removal

jade imp
#

and they have plenty of draw

molten dune
# cobalt flicker Okay but counterpoint: Monty exist along Shelling

Which is also elite, comes to 2 cards total, and shelling is 5. Is it possible to stall out aggro? Sure. I still don't see that as a bad thing, like just about everything in this game it requires a lot of commitment. Shelling is useless 1-4, so either a lot of early guards, 4x fortification, etc if you are planning to build a deck around that.

And at that point, may as well complain discard has enough cards, or frontline, or burn. If you hate the playstyle you hate the playstyle, but countermeasures, handlock, etc can ruin it.

#

You don't even want it in your hand if you don't also have southern plan or if you took a set of observer core. Won't come into play until your situation is too bad or you got extremely lucky if aggro wasn't sufficiently stalled with other cards up to that point

#

Point of aggro is anything 5+is too little too late.

#

Unless you survived and can heal up, but it is frequently supplemented by orders so if you haven't healed yet you need to get on it

blissful urchin
#

why is this still going on lmao

molten dune
#

People tend to enjoy civil conversation, in the absence of people that mock without contributing.

potent barn
#

The biggest issue of monty is the fact that it’s a 1K get out of jail card for any British Mains

#

A 1 Kredit that can change the outcome of a battle seems a little bit oh i don’t know too powerful to say the least

#

Plus, if you can’t answer the possible shitfest that happens after that is well, not much of a skill issue and more of the enemy pulling a BS move just so they can win

#

Plus, Plus don’t forget it can replace itself thanks to it’s draw if you pin too many units which immediately just punishes you for building a good tempo or line of units.

devout dragon
#

We should do a test like jking did with brit air to actually see the impact monty has on battles

molten dune
#

Unless "Jail" is any number of units with deployment effects that can be used against the HQ, or orders like air raid.

#

If the situation wasn't bad enough that it matters, then Monty isn't what's to blame, he had a good but different setup

#

If it is really early, a lot of luck went into what was drawn anyway on both sides. If it was later, cards like Kriegsmarine can still deal up to 9 damage to your base if the rest of your strategy was truly bad.

#

I feel like it is a bad case of fundamental attribution error.

#

If you are going to rely on units so heavily, tradeoffs should be expected. If there aren't any, the game is poorly designed.

#

I'll admit, I do think it synergizes a bit too well with Japanese pin death. But those decks are few and far between from what I have seen and it is more a potential problem.

crude basin
#

Dear all Nerf Monty enjoyers

I come with a dear message.

If we cannot decide how (or even whether) Monty should be nerfed then how can we expect 1939 to decide.

We must band together to decide on a singular suggestion to end Monty's infuriating rein of power. I wish to do it by vote. Send all your suggestions (even if they are "no change") and I will put them all up in a separate thread where you may all use 👍 and 👎 to decide the fate of Monty.

Thank you for your time.
From Eggs

jade imp
molten dune
#

I would prefer no nerf, strongly. It doesn't need to be. But if it is nerfed, the only things I would really be dead opposed to is increasing the cost more than 1, or not pinning a huge number of units, especially units commonly used for aggro as that needs to be kept in check.

jade imp
#

just play guards and heal

#

also HA exists

molten dune
#

Pretty much all guards at T3 or less are vulnerable to amphibious assault. Guards are the least effective way to deal with aggro, or Jaggro at least. Healing doesn't help unless you get lucky, best case is G50 + Mare Nostrum but it requires some luck. Mare nostrum on pretty much anything else so early on will not yield enough health as most units deal little damage at that point, and that early even 1 cost major.

By T4, if you are low health or the aggro deck has the board advantage, you are dead. If it has neither, you likely win (though Jaggro has feigned retreat as backup) and they will probably just surrender. If they have the frontline, blitz is OTK. If you are low on health, damage dealing orders finish the remainder. Neither scenario allows victory, and there are simply not enough ways to invest in both simultaneously without vastly overinvesting in less than 10% of the game.

#

Since Jaggro does not need credits for operation, it can play a stupid amount of control and still devastate the base

crude basin
molten dune
#

Meh, I'd rather let math and the scientific method decide but the devs will do as they will anyway.

#

I have already voted up top

crude basin
molten dune
#

I just hate Aristotle's "Candyman."

#

*Plato

jade imp
# crude basin Gentlemen it is no longer time for argument, it is time for action. Pls send you...

I suggest that Monty should be nerfed by removing the draw completely OR making the condition much harder such as requiring 5 units to be pinned or something. The idea of removing draw is not a harsh nerf as many others are suggesting, it allows for the player to survive one more round but if they do not have the proper measures to ensure their survival, they would be in trouble. I understand that Brits have a thing with pins so I still want to keep it that way as annoying as it is, however I feel that the draw is just necessary. The second option of making a harsher requirement is an even softer nerf, however I do not favor that because it might encourage the player to use it at a later stage of the game in order to get the benefit of draw, possibly making it more unpleasant for it to be played against.

tldr: NERF Monty by removing draw

molten dune
#

^That I can get behind

#

The conditional draw is nice and reduces RNG, but not strictly necessary

#

though I want to be clear: I do find it unnecessary to do anything to it

crude basin
molten dune
#

A very fair point I suppose

patent flower
#

pin a unit, draw a kerd

#

best suggestion me saw there

#

because bullshit take-an-extra-turn-for-1k has to go

#

honestly I'm surprised a card this retarded exists for such a long time practically untouched

#

makes me wonder

#

does balance team (or whoever pretends to be a balance team) even work

patent flower
jade imp
patent flower
#

except it wouldn't really be bad

jade imp
#

well, i dont think the draw is that much of a upgrade compared to 1 damage, +3 HQ defense, or other things

patent flower
#

except it literally is that much better

jade imp
#

alright

patent flower
#

simply because it's extra card in hand and ye want it

jade imp
#

hmm tru

#

#1079146631926120639 message
@solar tartan wdym by pinning the hq?

cobalt flicker
#

So the HQ can't move duh

jade imp
#

well now the HQ cant attack either, thats too powerful

patent flower
#

imagine giving hq movement cost and attack stat

#

DRIVE ME CLOSER I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD

cobalt flicker
#

I actually had an idea for Belgium country to have HQ get guard

molten dune
#

Must say really not happy with that suggestion. Aggro needs to be managed, and the mass pinning early enough without it being your entire move that turn is massively important, especially considering guards<t3 just get destroyed instantly and Jaggro does not need credits to operate most units at this tier. Unless Aggro decks are also heavily nerfed, can't support that idea.

#

(Eg, Jaggro has 1 operation cost on most units with 0)

#

(Or blitzkrieg reduces to 1 instead of 0)

#

No point in an extra card in hand when you've hardly touched a swarm

crude basin
#

@solar tartan how does pinning the HQ do anything. Is this not just "pin a unit and draw a card"?

past token
olive creek
#

Britain control can crush jaggro if it wants to, Monty or not

past token
# jade imp I suggest that Monty should be nerfed by removing the draw completely **OR** mak...

"Pin all units" (including your own, no draw)

I feel like this meets the requirements of yours (and others') suggestions, as well as @molten dune's desire to keep the mass pin aspect, but with the drawback of freezing any surviving units you have on board at the end of the turn.
This way, you can hope for a good draw, but you can't just bomb/arty the shit out of the enemy's frozen units while you draw even more removal.

This would affect Brit unit decks (like brit air) more than Brit control decks though.

jade imp
past token
# jade imp that is a understandable nerf, however i feel like draw might need to be added b...

or just decide whether if it's worth the cost? I think in most cases it'd still be worth it.
Like it doesn't matter for commandos. Guards typically don't need to move. Units like Honey/Crusader only attack or move as a last resort (if they haven't already been removed). Elite Churchill and Wellington are blitz/deployment effects you can use right after the monty pin. Your other units can attack or trade to your liking before the universal pin.

Only decks I think it'd *really * f_ck over is Air Aggro, Spitfires, or a beginner's infantry/tank deck. (And air aggro has plenty of other tools.)

jade imp
#

hmm good point i guess, and i have nothing against hurting brit air

molten dune
#

Aggro really should be more situational than it is overall

#

Right now it is the go to, hope you don't get one of the few counters

olive creek
#

if you build for it Brit control completely destroys jaggro

#

but yeah jaggro is strong, maybe 15th Cavalry should get reserve pooled 😈

molten dune
#

Too strong, but yes Britain has options. Let's not start whittling away at them, especially when their guards so easily get killed off by orders and/or removed with Sendai already.

olive creek
#

I strongly disagree with your thesis that Brit control should in general be immune to nerfs

molten dune
#

It's no better an idea to nerf Monty because Britain can take it than for a healthy person to start smoking because their body can take it

olive creek
#

Brit air has been one of the top meta decks for years

#

and Britain's insane elites is a part of that - which also gives the problem that everything else can't be too good since it needs to get nerfed

molten dune
#

Nerfs should be focused on areas of overperformance, of which monty is not one of them. I'd suggest stuff like monsoon rot + supply shortage

olive creek
#

???

#

Monty is one of the best cards in the game

livid portal
#

Even when i play aggro decks i dont find monty that bad to play against

cobalt flicker
#

I mean buddy, Turbo heal pin kills Mid range, not Jaggro

#

Monty is definitely one of the problems

molten dune
#

Been one of my saving cards in the case of bad draw

cobalt flicker
#

Ah so you object to this because it's your pet card.

olive creek
#

Whether or not Monty should be nerfed is a debate about how strong and how autoinclude individual cards should be allowed to exist - it is pretty clearly one of the best elites in the game, and there is absolutely no reason to not use it. Counterplay is also fairly limited.

molten dune
#

Bad draw is very much a problem regarding aggro, because of how much investment it demands just to even draw what you need in the few turns there are

#

Requires a massive overinvestment

livid portal
#

Buff rally instead lol

olive creek
#

As long as practical pin only exists on a few nations, anti-pin cards are gonna be inherently niche unless they're really strong.

livid portal
#

I just want rally buffed anyways

molten dune
#

There's certainly a number of nerfs I'd be okay with as a compromise, but really needs to be 1k + pin a butt ton of aggro cards

#

Swarms are just annoying and unfun

olive creek
#

also Britain has plenty of terrible cards to buff in compensation

molten dune
#

As I figure, takes about 25% of the deck to respond to a very small portion of the game, if you are going light. 1/5 or less is too vulnerable.

Resistance can be responded to by simply playing more aggressively with whatever you have.

Discard can be consistently devastated by supply lines, plus the G4M "discard please daddy" Betty, probably more than any other counters in the game.

Countermeasures can be responded to a number of different ways, but doesn't require more than maybe 10% of the deck.

To name a few

olive creek
#

Monty is good against everything

#

except unitless decks

#

There is no compromise at all in running it

molten dune
#

Useless against countermeasures, since whatever else you want to do is still going to get instakilled

olive creek
#

? Those decks still run units, you can pin them

molten dune
#

Also delays the problem, much in the same way that isolation does. Except at least isolation removes buffs. Monty doesn't even do that.

#

Units that will likely still be alive if you had to use monty to stall

olive creek
#

Yeah, no, Monty is amazing and the only bad matchups are against decks with no units.

#

Pin all is insanely strong also against control decks.

molten dune
#

It's solid for sure, but a necessary response to something else that really should get nerfed first

olive creek
#

What, countermeasures?

#

Or jaggro?

molten dune
#

Nerf monty, and a lot of already toxic decks will be much worse

#

Jaggro, 5th cali buff (slows units getting to the frontline in the first place), brit air (bonus, locks down support line), combined arms, etc. Nerf monty, watch all those become a lot more toxic

olive creek
#

Nerfing Monty would nerf Brit air

molten dune
#

And watch Brit decks become far more rigid in response

#

To an extent, but not to the extent it would block brit air against other brit decks

#

it gets locked out easily

cobalt flicker
#

I mean there's playing the game fast and there's not letting your opponent play the game

molten dune
#

Because the bombers are in the support line

cobalt flicker
#

Monty Sheylling forces the other player to either fall behind on curve or commit more to the board to get wiped by AoE

molten dune
#

Doesn't stop: countermeasures, deployment (unless you used up your whole support line, in which case you had it coming), orders, pretty much anything except units

#

It delays the problem, doesn't fix it

olive creek
#

Turns out delaying is really strong

cobalt flicker
#

As it stands it won't stop Jaggro unless Brit air, but it still utterly stomps decks slower than Jaggro like Frontline, self damage and self discard

olive creek
#

And of course a 1k card doesn't counter everything, but pinning everything is super strong for the cost

molten dune
#

Yeah, honestly a lot of that is stuff like southern strike, monsoon rot, and supply shortage

#

Not so much Monty itself

olive creek
#

Monty helps delay for it

molten dune
#

Just synergizes with a few things

#

Then fix the stuff that's actually toxic

cobalt flicker
#

Southern Plan is a whole nother problem.

olive creek
#

Board pin IS toxic

#

Britain shouldn't have 2 of them

#

in every deck

cobalt flicker
#

I won't be happy if I see a Naval gun being dropped while my board is pinned, I'll have to commit resources to kill that if I don't have order removal in hand.

olive creek
#

Deckbuilding wise autoinclude cards are also boring

cobalt flicker
#

Pot of greed anyone

molten dune
#

"to get wiped out by AoE" is where the problem is. carpet bombing or whatever is one thing, monsoon rot + commandos + supply shortage is stupid

#

Not shelling + monty, that's literally just two cards

olive creek
#

Are you saying elites can't ever be overpowered since it's just 1 copy?

molten dune
#

Monty is autoinclude mostly because aggro and midrange is strong

#

Fix that, less monty

olive creek
#

You'd still run Monty unless they get nerfed so hard into the ground unitless is the only viable deck

molten dune
#

Elites can only be OP if they outright kill/remove stuff from the board, or block a whole mechanic for multiple turns (e.g. King Tiger, if the game lasts that long). Not if you just have a 1 turn delay

#

That doesn't qualify.

#

Besides, we have plenty of limited and common cards to focus on first

#

1 is bad enough, 3x-4x of a toxic card is really where the focus should be

#

A 1 turn delay, by itself, isn't much. The problem is the situation surrounding it.

#

And even then, only units are delayed.

#

The problem isn't Monty, the problem is being able to use toxic cards because Monty bought the time

#

If Monty bought the opportunity to use balanced cards, there wouldn't be a problem

pallid widget
#

awooga awooga whats going on here lmao

pallid widget
#

the reason monty is good is because it prevents unit movement, attacking, and even using some abilities. pin is strong simply because it stops this which is a major core mechanic of the game, and on top of that monty can draw a card which means you dont lose or gain anything to your hand for playing this, and on top of THAT it only costs 1 kredit to entirely stop a core mechanic an enemy player has for an entire turn

molten dune
pallid widget
#

yes its not great into control but it still completely stops any unit the enemy plays

pallid widget
#

sorry for jumping in emil i was bored

olive creek
#

I did upvote the jaggro nerf that was suggested here recently that got torn apart lol

#

Would be curious to see what happens if a core jaggro card gets reserve pooled

molten dune
#

Jaggro isn't balanced, but it is unbalanced in a way people seem to enjoy. For now, this game has enough going for it that I am interested, but it seems to me people don't have the patience for long games which I enjoy. If ever this game becomes a swarm-fest exclusively, I'm out.

As a "core mechanic," it is no moreso than anything else. Drawing cards is also a "core" mechanic, should we nerf wolfpack and Panther because they interfere with that? That's kindof the idea of CCGs, core mechanics have exceptions or they get stupid

#

If I am too at odds with the community to enjoy this, honestly it wouldn't be my first time, I am usually a bit odd in that sense. I just like the game where it is at and fear for the direction much of the community is pushing. And I fear that in time, they will get bored of it anyway.

olive creek
#

I mainly play control

potent barn
#

Compromise deal

#

Enemy ground units gets -1 -1 and Pinned

olive creek
#

that seems like a buff?

molten dune
#

I was going to say the same

olive creek
#

I am definitely opposed to buffing Monty

#

lol

molten dune
#

I'd take it hands down of course, but I don't think anyone else will

#

Even then, only with a heavy nerf to supply shortage first

potent barn
molten dune
#

and monsoon rot for that matter

potent barn
#

Enemy ground units gets -1 -1

#

This

#

The old version of Monty

molten dune
#

works for me

potent barn
molten dune
#

But only if shelling is kept as is

potent barn
#

Do you have a pic of the old, old version of monty

#

@pallid widget

pallid widget
#

course

unknown.png
potent barn
#

@molten dune

potent barn
cobalt flicker
#

Monty is this card with no restriction

pallid widget
#

it is except they have the first phase and draw phase lol

#

no attacking phase

olive creek
#

Skipping an entire turn is definitely worth more than 1 kredit (although so is Monty's effect)

pallid widget
#

hard condition to meet, requires at least 7 cards and costs cards

cobalt flicker
#

Yep. Six Sam isn't swarming

molten dune
#

"Skip a turn" is very different. Damage dealing orders are still a go. countermeasures are still a go. Deployment (including blitz tanks) is still a go if you didn't fill your support line. It only stops unit movement, and then not all movements (e.g. Tiger E, I think?).

potent barn
#

Anyways the greatest question yet, would nerfing Monty into this finally makes it more balance?

unknown.png
pallid widget
#

absolutely not

molten dune
#

Good enough

cobalt flicker
#

Frostnova in Hearthstone is 3 mana, doesn't replenish itself, all in a game where you do not have to walk to frontline

pallid widget
#

permanent draw already is good for 1k

#

means the only downside is 1 k

olive creek
cobalt flicker
molten dune
#

-1, -1 means nothing for a number of units with high health.

#

My experience has been quite the opposite

cobalt flicker
#

Wait until Monty Monsoon becomes a thing

molten dune
#

Most decks I come across have face orders

#

At least a few. Strat bombing, imperial strength, air raid, to name a few. Any nuke deck.

cobalt flicker
#

What rank are you in that people play hit face orders outside burning

molten dune
#

FM

olive creek
#

Desperate Measures, Strategic Bombing are autoincludes

molten dune
#

Though which ones certainly change as you increase. Mostly nuke decks and strat bombing, but occasionally I will see some air raid

cobalt flicker
#

Air Raid is not a real card, go figure

molten dune
#

The german 3 damage to face

potent barn
#

Air Blitz

molten dune
#

yeah

cobalt flicker
#

Strat bombing is preferably played with your enemy having good stuff in the backline to kill

#

It's not about 3 damage

molten dune
#

I see air blitz far more often at lower levels

#

Still counts

potent barn
molten dune
#

Not like they won't play it if you aren't low on health

potent barn
#

I use atleast 1-2 in my deck

molten dune
#

Not to mention nukes are 12 damage to base, taken together

potent barn
olive creek
#

I kinda want Spy Ring vaulted

potent barn
molten dune
#

Also, while not an order, the effects of the USSR damage guards (idr the name) and the autodamage tank are not negated by pin

#

A fair number

potent barn
cobalt flicker
#

Yeah but that's control

molten dune
#

It is. With aggro, the most common offender is imperial strength

cobalt flicker
#

Any decks that want to move units to the frontline gets killed in Monty

molten dune
#

though air blitz is also frequent

cobalt flicker
#

Imperial Strength lmao, last time I've seen that is a Jap burn player

#

Who can't really care less about Monty

molten dune
#

I don't know my rank in FM, maybe it is different across different parts of OC rankings.

potent barn
#

I mean what region do you live in can corolate to deck usages

cobalt flicker
#

Still doesn't change the fact that Monty stomps decks where you run more than one unit

molten dune
#

"Any decks that want to move units to the frontline" and a lot of people seem to feel like those should be the only viable decks

cobalt flicker
#

Is order fiesta really the future you want

pallid widget
molten dune
#

Among others, I am okay with it if it is merely occasional. If it becomes OP in itself, we have a problem

pallid widget
#

compared to a temporary, not guaranteed draw, stop unit for 1 turn as better

olive creek
cobalt flicker
#

I mean Rootout is only -1 -2 and it's not like that card see any play /s

pallid widget
pallid widget
molten dune
#

There's wiggle room if you expect it, just leave a space in your support line for deployment.

#

And have a backup plan

potent barn
#

Good question a 1K Mini root out or just affect the enemy units?

#

@pallid widget

pallid widget
#

idk

molten dune
#

Kindof like if you know your opponent is playing Soviet convert, maybe don't put your most powerful unit by itself in the front line? At that point you're asking for it

#

If you know it's coming, you can prepare

potent barn
#

Still thinking if it should draw or not

molten dune
#

Yeah, all units -1 -1 works for me. Any Brit units that would be affected by that deserve to die in a fire anyway

#

*meaningfully

cobalt flicker
molten dune
#

Again, problem is how AoE works, not how monty works, as I said before.

#

Shelling sets you a bit behind, but the bigger issue is stuff like monsoon rot (which really should be a self-hit

potent barn
molten dune
#

And a drop to 1hp is pretty extreme at that

pallid widget
# molten dune "Any decks that want to move units to the frontline" and a lot of people seem to...

discard (a control deck) cards that want to move to the frontline:
Panther A
Panther G
Wirbelwind
989. Inf regiment
Flammpanzer
Marder III-H
Panzer III-H
Panzer III-L (sometimes)
Panzer IV F2
Tiger I-E
Tiger I-H
King Tiger

these are all cards in CONTROL that go for the front line, not to mention the fact that:
Schwalbe
Flak 88 m
Leopold
FW 190 A
Jagdbomber
Nebelwerfer
Heinkel He 115
are all stopped by monty aswell, and these are cards that are in control, the deck you say monty is bad againt

#

monty only costs 1 kredit and does this to any deck ever

#

if you cant use monty early game just use it late game, its just as good if not even better

#

there is three types of cards, units, orders and countermeasures

#

almost no deck uses countermeasures

#

units are the most core part of any deck except control, but even control has almost half its cards be units

#

monty is insanely good because it prevents units like these for an entire turn

#

from doing anything at all

cobalt flicker
#

2, don't forgeting Sheyling

molten dune
#

That's how those decks work now by necessity. Flammpanzer, for example, is not integral to discard. It is present because rush is stupid and discard has to have it to stay viable

pallid widget
#

just because monty isnt as good against control than to other decks doesnt mean its secretly not op

#

its like saying brit air is bad against an anti air deck yknow

#

its one deck type

#

but evne then monty still manages to get almost constant, instant and almost free value

molten dune
#

It is still a card slot that does not contribute to base HP, unit buffs, enemy base damage, not reusable, etc. And you are limited to 40 cards (technically 39 as I believe the HQ counts as 1).

#

That's pretty important

#

For many decks, anyway

pallid widget
#

i respect your opinion but monty is still the best card in the game, and has critical use compared to any other card. the next cheapest FULL board pin is shelling which doesnt draw a card, costs 5 kredits and deals 1 damage

molten dune
#

"Best card in the game?"

pallid widget
#

absolutely

molten dune
#

More than 5th california?

pallid widget
#

ask anyone and they will tell you that monty is the best card in the game

#

yes.

#

even before nerfs, monty was better than cali

#

shelling is second to monty

#

its almost free value from nothing, its like being able to draw 2 cards for 0 cost - anyone would run it because its instant free value

molten dune
#

5th cali with even a few buffs and 1 unit in the frontline is nearly invincible. And unlike before, you can't even drop its attack

pallid widget
#

there is almost no downsides to running monty

pallid widget
molten dune
#

Before you just keep hitting it until attack = 0

pallid widget
#

every single reasonably made deck is made in mind of cards that are super buffed

#

thats why hard removal exists

molten dune
#

lion for a day is special, and 5th is limited, so not enough of that for all of them. P-47, B-17, etc is random, so the presence of another potential target can keep the chances of being hit down. 2 and its improbable. precision bombing requires a bomber and is pretty specific, and with Britain as your ally you can block it with your choice of interception, dowding, or ultra. Same going for lion.

You pretty much must self hit, and generally multiple times. And if it is sufficiently buffed, forget it, even that won't be enough.

#

Can't even hit with TBF, HP <5

#

brb

pallid widget
#

if you let units like that grow aswell that is also a deck problem

#

brit air for example has alot of removal that is damage based, such as TES, Carpet, Shelling, Carpet bombing, Albacore, Barracuda etc

#

if you let a california just sit and take up a bunch of buffs then you might need more removal in your deck

#

not to mention that brit air has bombers which can deal large amounts of damage and take none in return

#

ah im getting off topic

#

what is wrong with monty

#

lets start with that

#

why isnt it worth running?

solar tartan
molten dune
#

If it is a buff deck, you have one turn until America's butt ton of cheap buff units all target it. If allied to Britain, there's also a lot of buffing units.

#

And of course, presuming you aren't playing discard

#

The main issues one could run into with monty (but never outweighs the danger of aggro and midrange frontline decks) are stuff like:

Japan resistance: few units to pin, those they have possess blitz. tons of base health, tons of damage. Anything that doesn't directly contribute to damaging their base or healing yours is a risk.

Any burn: this isn't contested. No units.

Any hard hitting deck (on your end) where the card slot would be better spent on something that deals a lot of damage or buffs a unit. Sometimes you just want one more card than you currently have, like a lot of Brit control decks I have been seeing that build a ton of base health and could easily go commonwealth but don't.

Why wouldn't you take commonwealth if you are very likely to have 30+ health and a lot of draw for much of the game? For these people, I presume because you just want that +1 card slot.

#

Albeit I can't exactly say I understand why they do what they have been doing with commonwealth either, so it would be hard for me to elaborate. But it has been working well enough for them that they have been getting FM with it

#

Right now, however, there is little that outweighs the pin. Lots of fast decks are very dangerous and need immediate responses the following turn.

past token
# molten dune Yeah, honestly a lot of that is stuff like southern strike, monsoon rot, and sup...

Monsoon Rot never kills anything on it's own, it needs to be combined with AOE. (And its pretty inconsequential to Jaggro). You may be able to get a board wipe in just 6+1 kredits, but its still a 2 card combo, which in some ways makes it inherently more situational and harder to pull off than Carpet Bombing, Desperate, Last Man, Root Out, whatever. (Or you commit hard to a Monsoon Rot AOE deck, which has it's own weaknesses.)

Thematically though, I think Monsoon Rot should effect all units on board.

Part of the reason Supply Shortage is still super annoying are mass pins cards. Without pin, at least I can usually ram my units into some kind of trade before they starve to death. (But I'm still open to nerfing that shit regardless)
Southern Plan... yeah. That archetype is problematic, along with discard.

past token
molten dune
#

El Alemein, as I understand it, was a very slow and messy for both sides. Rommel was caught flat footed due to a clever ruse, but with the same infantry unit (I believe it is one of the units in game) leading the way clearing the northern path through the minefields, then having to clear the southern path, it was pretty near wiped out at the end of the battle. Rommel was surprised, but Monty's own progress was far slower than he desired. Keep in mind, this is based on a documentary that I was busy and in and out of listening to, so I may have misunderstood or misheard parts.

Also, just in general he liked plans that were convoluted and surprised the enemy. Unfortunately they were ridiculously hard to impossible for his own side to pull off in the first place, hence Germany's surprise.

#

So yeah, the convoluted (in King Julian's voice) "I have a cunning plan" general did tend to cost a fair bit of time and casualties on his own side as well, when his plans even worked.

#

Nothing wrong with the discard archetype, forces flexibility

#

Monsoon rot synergizes with stuff that isn't even a problem on its own (like carpet bombing) way too hard.

#

Supply shortage could be a solid anti-aggro card if it was essentially Britain's Tora Tora Tora. But yeah, again it is a problem because of not just the pin, but also stuff like monsoon rot and carpet bombing. Which again, isn't a problem on it own

#

Supply shortage is pretty stupid with quite a bit of the British deck even without pin (albeit without pin it would have the effect of pushing players towards blitz even more than already)

#

2x supply lines and maybe two cards that draw hard I have found sufficient against discard, more draw if you skip supply lines or cards that draw less but not too bad, not like the investment needed against most aggro, let alone Jaggro

#

Also, unlike Monty, the effects of shortage aren't just for 1 turn

cobalt flicker
#

So we're talking history now?

cobalt flicker
#

It will help slow down the game on both sides! And it is historically accurate!

molten dune
#

Well, it's certainly complicated which is thematically fitting 😆

past token
molten dune
#

Might have been Royal Ulster that came close to being wiped out? Not sure, could have been a different one.

past token
# molten dune Monsoon rot synergizes with stuff that isn't even a problem on its own (like car...

Well AoE tends to synergize well with AoE. Unless ramping, there's no way to play Monsoon and Carpet in the same turn. Mass pins like Monty are the reason you can't get any value from AoE survivors, because you lose a turn and they follow up with another AoE on their turn.

And again, Monsoon + Tora or Winter is a 2 card combo that takes luck, setup, and hand-size depletion. Meanwhile, Carpet Bombing usually takes out most mid-rangey units, and To The Last Man hard removes the board with only 1 card.
Monsoon + Supply Shortage is kind of a waste in my opinion.

livid portal
#

If i were to nerf monty, which i wouldnt agree with, i would say

Pin all enemy units

Or

Pin tagets unit, draw a card

pallid widget
#

If I was to nerf Monty I'd just do the most obvious thing

#

Pin enemy support line, if 2 or more are pinned draw a card

#

Still remains strong but with unguaranteed draw and doesn't completely stop the enemy

clever grove
molten dune
#

Meh, maybe. Not sure if that would be better or the frontline

#

I prefer pin all

#

Or the one mentioned in the voting: pin all, draw if 2 or less are pinned

jade imp
#

im surprised not more people are agreeing with the no draw option

crude basin
#

tbh I think the draw in general is not the problem with Monty. Not many people are going to complain about them drawing a card. What they do complain about is the fact that you can basically do nothing for a turn. Which is why I suggested pinning less units

molten dune
#

If it is so bad, Britain should just pin itself then

#

Have the pin affect all units on the board

patent flower
#

wouldn't really be a meaningful nerf, again

#

simplay because most of the brits give zero craps about their board being able to move and just milk all the passives in the world

molten dune
#

It's almost as if there are a number of ways to play around pin and calling it a "lost turn" is a false equivalence.

Other player loses a turn, Britain loses a turn. The card should be UP according to that theory since it would cancel itself out except for the draw.

patent flower
#

all while enemy eats a load of pins, aoe and supply shortages

molten dune
#

The thing is, units still get there effects. Countermeasures still work. Tanks can still blitz through. Orders still work. Etc

#

Now, if say your plan was to fill up the entire board with cheap units and you had no backup plan, then maybe it is a lost turn

#

And I noticed a lot of people like that approach

#

Also, you are pretty much referring to one deck type primarily

#

Maybe two

#

particularly the supply shortages

#

It isn't like mobilize typically runs a ton of supply shortage from what I have seen. Even the pin is not that much

#

Or combined arms

patent flower
#

countermeasures are really played by only 2 nations and one is again britsKEKW
orders are eating a heap of said countermeasures and retarded denial tools, again, gifted to 1 nation on a silver platter

molten dune
#

It sounds like your issue is with Britain as a faction more than monty itself

patent flower
#

and blitz tanks assuming ye have them meet a load of stupidly overtuned guards

molten dune
#

So... if monty belonged to the nation you consider weakest (idk what that would be), why would it still be a problem?

#

Again, most of the arguments I keep hearing are about how Britain plays, not Monty specifically

patent flower
#

and monty is one of the most stupidly broken cards in said faction

#

so it is an issue in my book

molten dune
#

So idk what country you consider weakest, let's guess US (for example). If it were a US elite instead, would you still consider it broken?

patent flower
#

yes

molten dune
#

Explain why in that case.

patent flower
#

because it's a retarded "1k, take an extra turn"

#

no nation should have this crap

molten dune
#

Which I already established is a false equivalence, except as it applies to Britain specifically

#

At best

#

Why would it be so bad for the US to have it?

#

Because denial is going to need to happen for this game to stay interesting

#

Otherwise it is just who draws best cards first

patent flower
#

nah

#

denial is a retarded concept

#

because instead of 2 player game

#

it becomes one player plays and another player watches game

#

which is, in my book, bullshit

molten dune
#

Unless we are using the term in different ways, I utterly cannot understand how you find any enjoyment in a total and utter lack of being able to deny your opponent's moves. It becomes a game of Poker: a game of suspicion and maneuvers. A game of foresight, bluffs, and ultimately strategy. If all you want is to find the fastest possible deck and push, I'd argue you are playing a game not unlike War'

#

Denial is important because it slows the pace, and keeps it thoughtful

#

With plenty of room for bluffs

#

Otherwise its "My 10 beats your 6

#

Drawing for the biggest card is incredibly boring

#

If that's all it is

patent flower
#

I'm not advocating for fastest possible decks
What I'm advocating for is not dumbing a multiplayer game down to a solitaire, which monty helps to enable

molten dune
#

So "denial is a retarded concept" was an exaggeration? Because that's what you end up with if you can't deny anything

patent flower
#

nah

#

ye would be able to move units and fight like real men do

molten dune
#

You know Japan has Elusive Force and that is "denial," right? Unless I misunderstand how you are using it

#

It literally only denies orders

#

Contributing to exactly what you say you want

#

So "as a concept" it isn't "retarded"

patent flower
#

if anything, nerf to monty should help to force some actual thinking out of brit players

molten dune
#

Also, "Imperial Strength" is denial. It helps units move

patent flower
#

instead of, ye know "me spend 1k me take extra turn"

#

cards like elusive also shouldn't really exist in a sane game

#

but that's not the main point for now

molten dune
#

There's a reason denial exists in every CCG I know of, albeit that's not many

#

It does force your opponent to have a backup plan instead of just exploiting an unbalanced game, or getting lucky in a balanced one

patent flower
#

and it dumbs a 2 player game down to one player plays and one sits watching his stuff being lolnope'd

molten dune
#

But I really don't think it is just you, I suspect a lot of people here don't like denial as a concept.

Then, idk, lolnope the lolnope?

#

That's kindof how games like poker work

patent flower
#

yeah, let's cure syphilis with mercury poisoning, very good idea! KEKW

molten dune
#

If you don't like getting denied, that's a personal experience not a balancing issue. Balance requires at least some denial.

#

Get bluffed, or underestimate your opponent's hand and get rekd. Think it through

patent flower
#

honestly I'm willing to argue poker isn't really a card game

#

it's more of "a game of keeping yer bloody face straight that just happens to have randomly distributed cards"

molten dune
#

Question: do you like any games that have any intrigue at all, or is that not your thing?