N'Garde. Vanilla-Friendly Parry and Active Block.

[inner hare]

yeah

[rustic latch]

like

This weirdness fixed for next update, or at least should be better. Once combat ends it will now block all parry behavior and force lowerGuard before detaching the script from an actor

So they shouldn't be stuck in parry/block animations anymore

[maiden tangle]

Hope the placement of the cape on the cuirass feels alright. 🙂
There is some minor clipping depending on the movement of the character, but the cape itself was already quite janky.

[candid wren]

I LOVE U

[strong lynx]

With all the talk of disarming wouldve been cool if you can knock a weapon from blocking enemy hands somehow haha, but probably way too OP and also needs some ai logic of them picking it back up or something

[inner hare]

Foxunder made a disarming mod

[rustic latch]

there's a disarm mod

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/58430?tab=files

Works with this according to Dubious

[strong lynx]

Oh it does include pickup logic, thats cool, can probably interop with it to only disarm on blocking

[rustic latch]

Eh

[strong lynx]

And again probably should be a perk haha

[inner hare]

Feature creep

[rustic latch]

#1482416741077356692 message

[waxen cliff]

dubiousnpc

barely had a chance to play with it, but no issues so far. using it along with Foxunder's mods is wild, i got parried, knocked out, disarmed and then they stole my sword and half my money

Linked by @​.arrean from #N'Garde. Vanilla-Friendly Parry and Active Block. Beta · Apr 11, 2026, 11:35 PM

[rustic latch]

^

behold

[strong lynx]

Yea i know i know, you react like that to all my ideas or offers but its ok, no hard feelings

[rustic latch]

Nah, it's not that, and your feedback was very much implemented, at least since last time you've played

But that's out of scope for sure

[inner hare]

Foxunder has wild mods btw

Worth a look

Check his nexus page

[strong lynx]

Yea i saw it

[inner hare]

Man is pumping out bangers

[strong lynx]

Yea a lot of it sounds quite fun

[inner hare]

I've been thinking about going dubious-route and installing Disarm mod as well but I don't want it to get too crazy during testing sessions with yet another big mod 😅

[rustic latch]

This, probably. can be done. If I manage feint animations. But I've shelved feints for now

Disarming on blocking makes no sense to me, On feint however

[strong lynx]

I mean disarming when you are not even attacking prob makes even less sense? On block theres a clash of weapons atleast, so a chance to like do "something" including a disarm

[rustic latch]

fair

[inner hare]

Perk sounds good but actors would need that as well

[strong lynx]

Like the axe swing was so powerful that puny sword with whick you tried to block is now flying through the air

[strong lynx]

Yea adding perk support to actors shouldnt be that difficult

[rustic latch]

I mean, that already works, doesn't it - whatever disarm em all does

except it works not only on parry

[strong lynx]

And just randomly giving actors that satisfy skill requirements this perk

[candid wren]

The chance to disarm is so low it’s a genuine surprise when it happens

[rustic latch]

I mean, that's good, isn't it

[inner hare]

Nice that you are testing this

[strong lynx]

As far as i understand, yes

[rustic latch]

keeps it fresh

[candid wren]

Hell yea

It’s super fun

Npcs disarm too it calculates weapon stats and strength I believe

Weapons weight

[inner hare]

The thing is, you need legit perk packs for perks to make sense. We have 1 so far and it's WIP.

[candid wren]

When it happens to me the rush to pick up my weapon is real

[inner hare]

Because they can snatch it

[candid wren]

Yessss

[strong lynx]

Its not that difficult, there are few mods out there each of which just asks for 2-3 perks, + generic perks and you already have like 20

[rustic latch]

Hmmmm. No interface or anything in Disarm 'em all

[candid wren]

ITS BEAUTIFUL

other than settings no

[rustic latch]

btw. While I have all of ya'll round. Does anyone play with Path of The Incarnate?

[inner hare]

Yeah, once perks are actually implemented, numbers go up quickly.

[candid wren]

? That’s mod list right?

[rustic latch]

yes

[candid wren]

No

[rustic latch]

Something in there breaks N'Garde, but only for player

One report so far, but it's afucking 800+ modlist

[inner hare]

I saw the modlist, but no.

[rustic latch]

onHitHandler is never reached

[inner hare]

@tough juniper will be like: rookie numbers

[rustic latch]

so how the fuck do I troubleshoot that.

N'Garde works fine for NPCs, but player's onHit is never reached

meaning someone somewhere resolves it before

incorrectly

damage is still dealt, which is even weirder

[tough juniper]

Yeah PotI has a few things that dont play well with others. Hyacinth has worked with Clayby to get Sun's Dusk working on it, he might have some insights

[eager crane]

yes, they work together alright. I've been playing with both since the start

[rustic latch]

[maiden tangle]

Glad that you like it 😁

[tough juniper]

its not the size that counts...

[rustic latch]

actaully

this might be helpful

Can you give me your openmw.cfg

mods that you don't have that reporter does probably will be like 2

[inner hare]

That will be quite a sight!

[rustic latch]

and N'Garde works for you

[tough juniper]

incoming 🫡

no wokkas

definitely havn't had as much time to playtest recently but yeah i didnt notice any issues

[rustic latch]

And boom, reporter's config down to ~300 lines from several thousand, just those that are missing in Dubious'

[tough juniper]

nice

[inner hare]

Watch it being some random mesh replacer or sth. Totally unrelated and no gameplay impact

That would be hilarious

[rustic latch]

[tough juniper]

for real, it'll be a beaded curtain from a 2022 quest mod

[rustic latch]

...

[strong lynx]

Hmm, maybe some mod earlier in liad order interrupts on hit chain, if thats even possible?

[rustic latch]

I mean the conflict itself is hilarious. The NPCs can block

the player can't

[rustic latch]

yes

[strong lynx]

Fun

[rustic latch]

but they are using MO2 and they have moved N'Garde to the top

no effect

[candid wren]

Is shields up or another shield mods

[rustic latch]

but Iv'e no idea if MO2 manages it properly

[rustic latch]

oh

is it in there I wonder

nope

but good shout

[candid wren]

If that’s the case it’s probably a mod that probably has scripts that overwrite

Could be wrong but MO2 overwrites are laborious

[rustic latch]

So theoreteically if a handler of a mod A returns false - it will interrupt all other handlers. And is a decidedly rude thing to do

but order in which handlers resolve is something I'm very unclear on

I've been told that last in first out

meaning - last in load order - first to fire and resolve

but then N'Garde would've been fine

in their log - onHit handler just never happens

which is bloody weird

If several scripts register handlers for the same event, the handlers will be called in reverse order (opposite to engine handlers). I.e. the handler from the last script in the load order will be called first. Return value ‘false’ means “skip all other handlers for this event”. Any other return value (including nil) means nothing.
yeah

[strong lynx]

Are you adding handlers on script load for player or are you waiting for some kind of event?

[rustic latch]

that's waht the docs say at least

[rustic latch]

onLoad

actually no, specifically onInit and onLoad engine handlers

oh

[strong lynx]

In actual onLoad or just in script body?

Yup

[rustic latch]

but that means mine are registered first cause I'm last

so resolved last

[strong lynx]

Probably other mods do it in script body

[rustic latch]

huh?

[strong lynx]

Huh

Oh, hmm

[rustic latch]

, the handlers will be called in reverse order (opposite to engine handlers).

[strong lynx]

Yea

Confusing

[rustic latch]

so I'm registering my onHit handlers in an engine handler

my engine onLoad runs first - if I'm to believe that doc

hence my onHit is registered first, and gets resoled last

I need a coffee and someone smarter to explain

[strong lynx]

Maybe some sicko registers them much later for whatever reason or even dynamically adds and removes a handler on say every attack animation

Or something equally perverted

[rustic latch]

that's fuckign evil

returning false in a modded handler is evil enough

[inner hare]

https://tenor.com/view/we-dont-do-that-here-black-panther-tchalla-bruce-gif-16558003

[strong lynx]

Mm maybe can try point claude or qwen at mods folder and ask to check all mods that add player scripts

Its a lotta mods though, might choke

[rustic latch]

well, I haven't got those mods :D

[rustic latch]

Well, apparently now it works, somehow. But the only difference was one more log message...

I'll take it

And I'm going to post a quick update with fixed handler registration, just in case. Cause what I'm currently doing is cursed

[inner hare]

What... what are you doing?

[rustic latch]

adding an onHitHandler in onLoad as Mym told me to do for "compatibility" so that SE interface is ready by the time I need it

It sounded shady, but apparently a no-no in general

Anyway:

• on combat end disabling all parry behaviour on NPC for the split second script exists before it is detached
• Fixed addOnHitHandler, for more predicatble behaviour

[inner hare]

Movement looks good. So far I've not witnessed previous issues with pathfinding. Once I witnessed somebody getting stuck near the door which he tried to open, but it's sth that can happen without the mod as well.

I'm impressed with how well actors with decent skill handle parrying. It can make some fights way more difficult. You need to be more careful with timing.

How do you scale durability dmg? I've not seen any weapon getting more than 3 dmg per hit on parry. Not sure if intended.

[rustic latch]

That goal achieved then. Although in my testing I felt that I may need to tune it down sometimes

[rustic latch]

give me a sec

On perfect parry only base damage is applied. On weak parry it's base + remaining health damage

[inner hare]

ok, makes sense conceptually

[rustic latch]

So inverse of base game behaviour - at higher skill your shield breaks slower instead of faster

base game - durability damage is always the same, but you block much more often at high skill

so shields break

[inner hare]

I'm talking about weapons. Shield get damaged the way I would expect.

[rustic latch]

yah, but same formula

[inner hare]

well, frankly, it makes sense for the shield to get damaged only on hit

no block, no damage

https://tenor.com/view/tkt-smart-gif-20642718

[rustic latch]

Also true, but OMW already has a setting that changes that in the launcher

"redistribute shield hits" iirc

[inner hare]

this is unrelated

it's about hits on equipment slots

the game makes a roll

[rustic latch]

ah, I misunderstood then

[inner hare]

shield slot is treated as an equipment slot

[rustic latch]

yeah, makes sense

[inner hare]

I will test that durability

will keep blocking with dai-katana

to see whether it's only 3

or more

no perfect parries

[rustic latch]

Should be more, as long as there's any health damage you're still getting. If the shield works as expected - this should too, same code path

There's only a special case for h2h

to redirect damage to gauntlets

[inner hare]

I will do more testing with HTH. From experience, it seems that blocking with HTH gets good way too soon.

and I mean blocking

not perfect parries

but I will test more

[rustic latch]

Does it? Let me know - the effectiveness handling for that was annoying af

Oh. And btw. Fatigue damage if there's any on that attack also goes into durability

but before conversion, so only if there's any base fatigue damage

[inner hare]

Block scaling looks way more sensible now. I get skill gain as expected. It's variable. All good. However, feat display is all wrong 😅 . Mismatched text or no text. Also, it gets confusing with HTH hits when they apply Fatigue damage only. SE treats that as Avoided Fatigue Loss (50% impact for skill scaling by default) and it's displayed as a separate line. Here, however, I think that you didn't implement separate display/handling for this case. Anyway, while skill gains seem to be working, feat display/text is all over the place 😄

I know that you love the UI 😏

[rustic latch]

Huh

[inner hare]

yeah, going to do some HTH testing right now

[rustic latch]

I thought I changed display in the last update. So the fields should be "Damage Parried", "Timing" and "Enemy"

Or did I do that after posting?

[inner hare]

using this

[rustic latch]

Hmmm

[inner hare]

I may redownload just to be sure

[rustic latch]

Nah, should be fine. I was runnnin on way too little sleep yesterday, and that was posted "asap" cause of addOnHitHandler thing

so you have correct version

I just made more changes afterwards

[inner hare]

Ok. Going for those HTH stuff now + durability tests.

https://tenor.com/view/fighting-punch-fight-gif-13599924

[rustic latch]

enemy h2h attack

[inner hare]

it would be good to hide Damage Parried when it's 0 and it was Fatigue damage which was avoided. It should be displayed instead.

I see that you use Fargoth as the punching bag

[rustic latch]

Just spawned him in the vivec arena, he has convenient one word id

Hmm. I see a couple places I've missed debug messages/logs in

going to fix that too

[rustic latch]

And yeah - this is not right, need to update it. That's should show avoided damage whether it's fatigue or health, but for some reason it's zero there

[inner hare]

I had my suspicions but kept quiet because I thought that maybe Arena crowd interfered

[inner hare]

https://tenor.com/view/thor-yes-of-course-gif-19803794

[rustic latch]

Naah, looking at it now - I'm doing something really weird for attacks that have only fatigue damage in them... Let me review that

and debug logs/messages are not in that path

[inner hare]

I still get metal sound when blocking with HTH after unequipping gauntlets. It's the same sound.

[rustic latch]

it should play this

it does include that ringing sound

but also

the base it's overlayed with this

which is base h2h block sound

ringing is there for one reason - so that "perfect" parry has exact same unique identifier no matter what weapon/shield you use

[inner hare]

I'm talking about standard block

It sounds bad

[rustic latch]

you hear this one on standard block?

[inner hare]

No metal and I hear clink

[rustic latch]

or base game armor sound like with a shield?

[inner hare]

One sec

Yeah, it sounds like shield hit

Bare hands

[rustic latch]

hmmm

[inner hare]

35 HTH

No armor

[rustic latch]

that means sound didn't get reset after gauntlets got unequipped

let me see

I misunderstood you last time then

hmm, not sound. "material" record

I think I see where it happens

[inner hare]

Not sure how legit Block skill increase is for HTH. Maybe it should be HTH main and secondary like it is with shields (Block main/secondary).

[rustic latch]

I've considered that, or h2h + unarmored

[inner hare]

Unarmored is conditional

[rustic latch]

but I'm generally using "block" as a general purpose defence skill

[inner hare]

You can be armored

[rustic latch]

yeah, or armor skill for gauntlets

But maybe we include "defence" in the martial arts implied portion of h2h

and use h2h twice

yeah, I can agree with that

[inner hare]

Yeah, I think it's unique enough

[rustic latch]

Oooh. I see what's going on with gauntlets/hands material mapping. I only apply "bare hands" first time weapon is unequipped, not when gauntlets are lost

let me fix that

[inner hare]

Cool

Is it only the sound btw? HTH blocking seems strangely strong. I'm not talking perfect parries. Standard block. I don't understand this "perk", either, but boosting HTH block further at 40 seems weird. It's not a high skill level. Shouldn't HTH be more like short blade in terms of effectiveness? It only gets good on high skill lvl. Otherwise, you have to rely on perfect parries, avoid getting hit, wear gauntlets or tank it. Anyway, I think that I know what is contributing to the power lvl here. Parries reflect Fatigue. HTH uniquely deals Fatigue with hits. Therefore, everything contributes to enemy KO happening sooner. It's a good case for nerfing HTH blocks a little bit IMO.

[rustic latch]

Yah

I think setting that level to 70 or something may work better

Would mean that defending against weapons with h2h before 70 is impossible without good gauntlets

maybe even 80

or 90

[inner hare]

And man, I know that you go for consistency with perfect parry sound, but I expect to hear some cool satisfying Khajiiti kung fu sound or sth that this metal clink is weird

[inner hare]

But you can perfect parry, right?

[rustic latch]

with gauntlets,

[inner hare]

Huh? I think I did it with bare hands.

[rustic latch]

after I change it I mean

hmm

actually, no. You'll be fine,

Yeah, perfect parries will work

they don't take weapon effectiveness in the formula

now I'm thinking maybe it should.

[inner hare]

IMO perfect parry is always legit

It's great timing

[rustic latch]

Yah, But I'm wondering if timing may be too generous

[inner hare]

Yes

Good point

[rustic latch]

and if that timing calculation should include weapon effectiveness

one or the other or both

[inner hare]

Iirc you use 1 for HTH, anyway

Maybe it should be skill only. I mean, do we want to make good things even better and bad even worse?

[rustic latch]

Naaah, it's more complicated than that

[rustic latch]

I mean this

So, real h2h effectiveness, is 0+ ( L gauntlets effectiveness, + R gauntlet effectiveness) + bonus from Iron Palm (0.5 at threshold skill level, 1 at threshold+10), capped at 1.2 and multiplied by the value in settings

[inner hare]

Amyway, perfect parries are legit in all cases, I think. Standard ones feel too good with HTH.

[rustic latch]

and if enemy attack is also h2h - the h2h effectiveness is always 1.2

basically values in setings are "x% of whatever the fuck I'm doing under the hood"

expressed as 1 = 100%, 1.5 = 150% etc

[rustic latch]

Right. Let me review it. It may be getting to threshold too early, and I'll need to doublecheck if gauntlet effectiveness gets reset properly when removed

[rustic latch]

And I realized I didn't respond to this - if you find a fitting soun - let me know, I've spent quite a few hours at royalty-free sound repos - it's not hopeless, but I didn't find anything better

[inner hare]

The way I imagine HTH blocking to work:

• at low skill it's the worst option for standard blocks;
• blocking boosts HTH only since it's unique enough. There is precedent for this already with shields. This is a similar case, i.e. other secondary skill makes less sense;
• perfect parries are always legit even with bare hands just as it is with everything else. They may be hard, but this is your hand grab, weapon grab, kick or whatever. You had great timing, you reap the benefits.
• 40 skill is not high skill lvl. It's sth a starting character may have. Most Legion veterans probably have around 30-40 due to training/experience alone and they don't have Ultra Instinct. If there is a blocking boost, it should happened at higher skill like 70+. Actors should probably know this as well so they don't spend too much time keeping the guard up while it's not that effective.

[inner hare]

ok, I will retest after all the tweaks

[rustic latch]

Yah, I will post in a little bit

[inner hare]

HTH can be a strong skill btw. I know that many players ignore it, but if you know what you are doing, it gets very strong very quickly. Blocks boost it further because of enemy Fatigue damage (it all stacks) so it's not that some nerfs are undeserved.

[rustic latch]

Yeah. I also probably need to lower the combat distance for h2h

they seem to dance just out of their own range

[inner hare]

I see durability damage. Seems to be working ok. Switching to new version.

[inner hare]

• HTH gauntlet/no gauntlet block sounds seem correct
• new bug: sometimes perfect parry sound doesn't play at all. Both with weapons and HTH. In such cases, you see stagger but hear no sound
• new bug: I blocked with HTH (no gauntles) and dai-katana, keeping the guard constantly until I ran out of Fatigue. It received no damage at all. It was skill lvl 40-45.

SE feats look like this. Enemy shown, good. No dmg negated info, bad. How is timing even calculated btw? I just keep the guard up and it's 100%.

oh, and no messages for blocking

kept the guard up

kept getting hit over and over again

no dmg

no message

Fatigue goes down, but I'm invincible while keeping guard up

I even set my Block and Long Blade to 0 mid-combat to test the difference. Same result. Something seems fucked.

I bet that it's some typo. 1000 somewhere instead of 100 or sth

[rustic latch]

Hold up

let me see

100% is perfect parry, or first microsecond after the perfect parry elapsed( even though that will likely still be 99%)

damage negated seems to come in both on perfect and normal... hmmm

do you have debug logs enabled?

can you get me your log?

[inner hare]

Ok

debug and logs on

no damage, no messages

[rustic latch]

yeah, checking

[inner hare]

if this is how it's supposed to look, then I definitely suggest putting a space before and after ;

[rustic latch]

yeah, good call

[inner hare]

and before HP and FP. Shouldn't be likethat

🙂

[rustic latch]

And both would only show up if both were present

[inner hare]

makes sense

[rustic latch]

Ah, dammit. Found it

[inner hare]

if it matters, I will say that NGarde is the last mod in my load order and the bugs I mentioned (no dmg and missing sound from time to time) didn't happen before

[rustic latch]

one of "its" at least

[inner hare]

typo...?

[rustic latch]

nah, that's my fuckup. I've separated negated damage by health and fatigue

but in one place where it should multiplied - it was still referring to negatedDamage instead of negatedDamage.health

can't multiply a table

[inner hare]

he could do it

[rustic latch]

just glad it's not js or ruby , there it would've silently multipled the array

and got a string out of the other side

[inner hare]

how is it possible that you weren't getting the bug here? Was it because Fargoth attacked you with fists?

[rustic latch]

ye

the one place where it was called was when attack had no fatigue component

called like that*

all code paths entered correctly

some weird display when tgm is on, but meh. And also added an exception for that

[inner hare]

I once boosted enemy STR to 500 for testing

but he one-shoted me

[rustic latch]

that's 1000 h2h and 1000 str

had to set my hp and fatigue to 10k to survive

[inner hare]

nice to see caps working

[rustic latch]

I'm also dividing damage negated by 400

before adding it to the scale

[inner hare]

must be scary to fight Super Saiyan guards

[rustic latch]

lad is resting now. reflected fatigue damage got him down

[inner hare]

lmao

[rustic latch]

Now, to figure out why messages are not showing up

Alright

Think we are ok

let me check a couple of things over and I'll replace the zip

[inner hare]

about the keeping distance thing... I'm wondering whether you need to use it for standard weapons and HTH at all. I mean, if reach is 1.0, then maybe it's just best to leave it to Vanilla and Mercy. Keeping at the edge only makes sense if you have a weapon with longer reach.

[rustic latch]

I mean yeah

probably

but the whole thing was implemented cause in one of my demo videos someone noticed they are really in licking distance

which was weird

[inner hare]

that was me

[rustic latch]

ah

[inner hare]

[rustic latch]

right

[inner hare]

it's ok now

just thinking out loud

[rustic latch]

No, I mean. Let me make distance keeping a setting

And we can test side by side

[inner hare]

the thing is, it makes perfect sense to keep you at bay if they have a spear, staff, warhammer - the things with high reach

but if it's 1.0 then whatever

[rustic latch]

Well, maybe. Still I definitely like combat distance more with it enabled than otherwise

[inner hare]

oh yeah

it looks more natural

and fluid

although in the testing showcase, the old one, you weren't using Mercy

[rustic latch]

maybe just add a buffer distance somehow, so that it's not one unit that makes the different

[inner hare]

with Mercy, NPC behaviour is more varied

[rustic latch]

I don't have it active most of the time

[inner hare]

sometimes they power walk, sometimes they run at you, sometimes they spam attacks

things like that

[rustic latch]

Specifically to test how behavior that I modify works

And then again

in that old demo - distance wasn't anything I did something with, either mwscript that handles that sparring session in TR, or vanilla behaviour's fault

[inner hare]

they use Mercy behaviour if it's activated

but no matter. Not anything pressing.

[rustic latch]

Yeah. I'll think about it, am messing with obstacle detection anyway

^ Fixed the bugs found so far

[inner hare]

https://tenor.com/view/ah-shit-here-we-go-again-ah-shit-cj-gta-gta-san-andreas-gif-13933485

[rustic latch]

And about timing, basically it's how close you were to perfect parry. Probably good idea to change display to "perfect" instead of 100%

0% means - nowhere near

[inner hare]

100% is ok as well

[rustic latch]

fair

[inner hare]

wtf

where are my options?

did you change sth?

there?

[inner hare]

reloadlua, same thing

[rustic latch]

There you go

fatfingered somethign in the settings file

[inner hare]

Yeah. Settings working now. Weapon parries work as expected. Messages appear semi-reliably.

SE feats display is much better.

[rustic latch]

Semi reliably?

[inner hare]

yeah, sometimes they don't appear

[rustic latch]

Oh. I know. You have all-attacks-hit off, right?

[inner hare]

when I get no dmg

yes

do I look like someone who would play on easy mode?

[rustic latch]

Right, so currently you can parry missed attacks. It's really only there to allow you to stagger them with a perfect parry

[inner hare]

ah

ok

[rustic latch]

and for better feedback, holding parry and hearing "whoosh" and nothing else was weird

[inner hare]

maybe it should be a message

[rustic latch]

yeah

[inner hare]

for debug consistency

not sure whether it's related to this damage negated: ,

[rustic latch]

it is

[inner hare]

ah

[rustic latch]

same would happen with tgm

[inner hare]

that explains things

[rustic latch]

cause there was no damage of any kind

[inner hare]

well, definitely have to do sth with that ","

maybe 0

whatever

[rustic latch]

the comma is just what Mym adds

[inner hare]

just so it doesn't look like a bug

[rustic latch]

I pass an empty string in in that case

[inner hare]

so just 0

hm

or "miss"

I dunno

[rustic latch]

Yeah

miss may be better

[inner hare]

ok

dude, this explains so much

[rustic latch]

Hmmm. Looks like when an attack was going to be a miss it still has attack.damage.fatigue on it, but it's 0

Well, that's fine too then:

[inner hare]

is HTH defence factor supposed to be the same regardless of HTH skill?

[rustic latch]

no

no special handling there

[inner hare]

then sth is not right

wait a sec

[rustic latch]

are you way below iron plam threshold and tryingto block weapons?

15 h2h,
no gauntlets:

those were both misses, but still

[inner hare]

gauntlets on. I changed my HTH multiple times for testing.

[rustic latch]

HANDTOHAND effectiveness:0
Are you sure gauntlets are on?

[inner hare]

ok, they were

they got demolished

during testing

condition loss

but

[rustic latch]

let me check the full log

[inner hare]

I tweaked HTH

several times

including to 100

[rustic latch]

hmmm

HANDTOHAND effectiveness:0.5375

(with one adamantium bracer)

let me stare at it for a minute

[inner hare]

just punched the skeleton again. No gauntlets. HTH 100. Defence factor 15%, same as before.

[rustic latch]

punched or got punched?

seems to work on my end

definitely needs a staring session

[inner hare]

I get punched with guard on

HTH 100

definitely should make a difference

[rustic latch]

yah

hang on

[inner hare]

HTH 100

I noticed the jittering you mentioned before for keeping distance. Maybe slight delay/cooldown or tolerance isn't a bad idea.

[tough juniper]

Damn auto emote keeps 🔥ing off to when I'm trying to read..

[rustic latch]

That was a non-h2h attack you were defending against, right?

[inner hare]

Yes

[rustic latch]

ok

[inner hare]

[rustic latch]

• properly taking threshold for iron palm ( level when h2h without gauntlets becomes effective against weapons)
• fixed some display weirdness for parrying missed attacks

[inner hare]

Lmao at it being RC5

[rustic latch]

I have two options

roll with it

[inner hare]

I wonder how many versions there were

[rustic latch]

or go back to 0.8 something

[inner hare]

No, no, let's get over 9000

It's always good to have the opportunity to post Vegeta and Thanos memes. It's the most important thing . Mandalorian is good as well (this is the way).

[rustic latch]

We'll get to vegeta memes in time, but
** 0.8.0 **

• better SE feats Integration and display
• h2h sounds fix
• Sanity rework for weak and perfect parry handling distinction
• Better handling for fatigue only and fatigue + health attacks
• h2h gauntlets effects fix for sound and effectiveness on equipment change
• defult h2h iron palm threshold to 70
• h2h effectiveness under the hood capped at 1.1, down from 1.2 (settings value still applies as multiplier)
• perfect parry window max lowered to 400 ms and skill ratios lowered slightly (main skill 0.4 -> 0.35, secondary 0.15 -> 0.13)
• handtohand is now primary and secondary skill for h2h blocking (no longer uses block skill)
• more logs and better logs
• properly taking IronPalm threshold
• clearly wasn't ready to be called RC, and I'm not too proud to admit that.

Also, the fucking h2h has so much special handling around it - it's ridiculous

[inner hare]

Soon you will be adding HTH special moves

[rustic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/gohine-hohino-no-hohineee-gohineee-gif-17792172174678204487

[inner hare]

Roundhouse kicks

BTW imagine getting punched with Wraithguard

[rustic latch]

That's on Iron Fist to handle tbh

[inner hare]

Yeah

[inner hare]

well, progress is good. HTH works both with gauntlets and without them. Perfect parries work as expected. Messages are consistent. Clean SE feats display.

[rustic latch]

I'm bracing for a "but"

[inner hare]

there is one tiny little problem I encountered once with the latest update

only once

but

[rustic latch]

do tell

[inner hare]

during one testing session, somehow during HTH blocking half of SE broke. Sth like this never happened during several playthroughs 😅

I have no fucking clue what that even is

"nan" and invisible skill levels

I made a log from that session

ironically, SE feats are displayed correctly and cleanly

[rustic latch]

lmao

[inner hare]

I think I will enable SE logs as well just to see if sth broke

I've never seen anything like this 😄

[inner hare]

@jagged hamlet do you have any idea what this could be?

[rustic latch]

could it somehow passed in a negative scale?

dammit and I don't log that

[inner hare]

I was blocking with HTH

couldn't replicate during the next session

it's only this save

[rustic latch]

a normal block?

[inner hare]

both, probably

[rustic latch]

and is the save fucked now?

[inner hare]

perfect and normal

yeah

this save, yeah

it's over there

the bugs have the high ground

so besides breaking SE and some jittering, I have to say that things look good 😄

(so far)

I will fight the bandits in the cave on the broken save. See whether sth appears in the log.

here are some more logs, maybe it will help. Ironically, SE functions seem to be working. It's as if display was fucked for several skills and this "nan" appeared.

as for jiterring/keeping distance, sometimes the enemy can get semi-frozen in place. They won't move until you move.

[rustic latch]

yeah, that's when they are exactly on the line

which is weird

cause I made conditions inclusive

= 100 for one and < 100 for another

[inner hare]

hmm

[rustic latch]

100 not actual value

but you get the idea

shouldn't be a point where condition is not met

[inner hare]

yeah. Maybe "release" them from keeping distance from time to time or add some random factor or whatever. Just so it will look more natural and happen less often.

is perfect parry stagger always the same? Sometimes it looks as if there was no stagger at all.

the sound, the message and no dmg happens

but I see no stagger

not reliable. Sometimes.

maybe you will notice sth if it's not intended

I also wonder why one of my gauntlets got to 0 condition but wasn't unequipped

I thought that broken items are unequipped automatically

[rustic latch]

It randomly plays one of 5 builtin hit animations. But, there's a stagger cooldown - meaning after an actor is staggered they can't be staggered again for between 0.4 and 2.2 seconds depending on strengthn endurance and block

Otherwise it's way too easy to stunlock an opponent with quick attacks

[inner hare]

ok

[rustic latch]

And that stagger cooldown applies to everythign excep knockdown and knockout animations.

if you get them down - you've earned it, but otherwise can't stunlock

[inner hare]

yeah, makes sense

[rustic latch]

Actually, should add swim knockout and swimknockdown too

[inner hare]

damn, when I switch to HTH lvl 100 for testing, this is how it feels:

[rustic latch]

yup

[inner hare]

might play a HTH monk next time

[rustic latch]

Spellsword allows enchanting fists, IronFists takes gauntlets into account for damage, and there's block/parry here

should be fire

[tough juniper]

high praise indeed

[inner hare]

damn, when everything works, those feats are beautiful

[rustic latch]

Nice

[inner hare]

can't break the game again

no clue, lol

nice to observe gradual degradation of blocking efficiency with Fatigue

when I make those first blocks at full Fatigue with Orcish Towershield, nothing gets through

then more and more

feels great

[rustic latch]

🔥

[inner hare]

⚔️

weapon, shield, hth, all nice

[inner hare]

Golden Saint kicked my ass 😅 . Parried my strikes, staggered me. Kept healing herself due to Fair Care. Cast lightning shield spell on herself boosted by Magic Rebalance which meant that I suffered dmg per each hit I actually made. I also received HP debuff due to No More Excessive Healing because I healed too much. Mod combos, lol. Fun times.

keeping distance sometimes makes enemies with weapons with reach shorter than your own weapon waste too much time because instead of pursuing you aggressively, they are trying to keep you at bay. The thing is, it's much easier for you to keep them at bay, so they really struggle with finding that spot.

[rustic latch]

Huh, they should nto count your weapon reach at all

only their own

At least I'm not doing anything with opponent weapon reach

[inner hare]

I'm not sure whether they "count" it.

but a grab a spear and fight someone with a short sword and shield

you should notice this in 1-2 fighting sessions

[rustic latch]

That may be Mercy's doing

cause I definitely don't move them in that case

[inner hare]

https://tenor.com/view/suhgenre-jccthangs-gif-24975871

[rustic latch]

huh

spawned in a riekling to test another thign

and yeah

I see that

wtf

ok

I'm seriously considering scrapping the whole thing about distance now

[inner hare]

as suggested before, maybe only for those who have weapons with long reach?

and you can make it a toggle

call it EXPERIMENTAL

[rustic latch]

:P

Only long reach may make sense

[inner hare]

yeah because it's less of an issue

it makes sense for them to keep you at bay

and be cautious

[rustic latch]

base game - longer reach weapons are staves, 2h axes, 2h blunt and spears iiirc

[inner hare]

don't make it hardcoded by type

check weapon reach

weapons can have varied reach in Vanilla and mods sometimes

and 2H axes actually have 1.0 in Vanilla. Spears, staves and warhammers have longer reach.

[rustic latch]

oh, motherfucker, rieklings are bad

I may need to blacklist them

they are weapon users but rig doesn't match up at all

[inner hare]

ah

[rustic latch]

so the little mofo just jitters in place, and doesn't actually ever parry

or do anything useful

[inner hare]

I think that they may be only case like that

in Vanilla, at least

[rustic latch]

They have special animations too

knockdown when hit

[inner hare]

actually... are hill giants from Tamriel Data considered weapon users? Because you don't want them to be considered as such, lol

[rustic latch]

Let me spawn one

[inner hare]

there are 2 types

one creature and one NPC

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Tamriel_Data:Giant here you have a Giant

let's just say that his hits shouldn't be parriable and he shouldn't parry as well, lmao

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Tamriel_Data:Hill_Giant this is Hill Giant NPC race. Not sure whether it's even used anywhere.

[rustic latch]

Nah, we good

[inner hare]

those are some mofos btw

[rustic latch]

as they should be

[inner hare]

yeah

[inner hare]

right... so it's only theoretical for now

[rustic latch]

the race yeah

[amber slate]

Bummed to hear the mod got bumped down from RC status, but don't be too hard on yourself. Even in its current state, I'd miss this mod significantly if were to play without it.

[rustic latch]

Nah, I'm not too proud to admit it wasn't ready

[inner hare]

https://tenor.com/view/we-were-on-the-verge-of-greatness-we-were-this-close-krennic-rogue-one-gif-15151285157744834762

[rustic latch]

and it wasn't. Ya'll can still play and have fun with pre-release versions

but we better polish it up before it goes up on nexus

Considering it realistically - it's a bigger departure from base game than it seems

so issues were and are to be expected

[inner hare]

well, there are new mechanics, new animations, skill scaling and new AI

[rustic latch]

yup

[inner hare]

maybe check the fucking gobbos for animations as well

[rustic latch]

yah

Well, goblins is better, I think... They don't seem to try to parry, though I'm not sure why

[inner hare]

BTW folks, if you are struggling, here is a short guide on how to deal with enemies when using N'Garde:

1. First order of business is preparation. Check your equipment. Be mindful of condition.
2. Make sure to spot the enemy first. Check what they are wielding.
3. Check whether there is more than one enemy nearby. Try to avoid groups if possible.
4. Once you are sure that the encounter is manageable, make sure you have potions under hotkey.
5. All done? Good.
6. Now shoot the pathetic n'wah in the back with an arrow as a sneak attack, loot their worthless corpse and move on.

[rustic latch]

LMAO

realism (not quite intentionally) achieved

just shoot the mofo

[eager crane]

unironically, attacking them from the back is actually very effective now that they're capable of blocking 90% of your front attacks. Having a companion who draws their attention really helps

[rustic latch]

hmmm, I wonder if we can do turn rate slowdown or delay in combat

so that flanking works

cause parry arc is less than 180 degrees even for widest ones

160 is max

Roight. So 160 creatures marked as "Can use weapons" in TD, OAAB and base game

hmmm

some of those are rieklings

guess I have my evening sorted

[young aspen]

I don't remember how it works in the base game - can one parry or block missiles?

[rustic latch]

no

not in the base game

[inner hare]

Fireball to the face works as well*.

*use Shockball against Dunmer

[rustic latch]

How's enemy archer behaviour for ya'll on current version?

[jagged hamlet]

Did you play with the previous SE beta with your current save?

[inner hare]

I think this save received many SE and Ngarde updates.

A shitton

Because it was just in Seyda Neen

[rustic latch]

Mea culpa

[inner hare]

But only this one broke

Wtf "nan" even is? It's a crusader, not a babysitter.

[rustic latch]

not-a-number

meaning something that was being interprted as number, is actually not, so NaN

[inner hare]

not-an-n'wah

[jagged hamlet]

As I changed the feat stats format for the final version, previous recorded feats can break the tooltips and maybe the skill values

Once you beat these feats you're good

[inner hare]

I doubt it's this

In fact, it's not

Things broke because of new feats

[rustic latch]

I will doublecheck what I'm sending to SE, to make sure scale is never lower than 0 etc

When I'm done testing creatures

halfway down the list, only 22 exceptions so far

mostly rieklings and gobbos

[inner hare]

I even have the same save and everything works. It broke during 1 test session. Several skills "broken" with invisible numbers + "nan".

[rustic latch]

fck daedra are scary now btw

had to enable tgm as I got to testign them

on a lvl 20 char

[inner hare]

BTW for enemy block/parry rate, I think that Vanilla block chance may serve as inspiration. Obv, appropriate skills should be used (Block/Weapon+Block/HTH), but I think that skill, agility and luck are good here, with skill mattering the most and luck the least.

[rustic latch]

I've implemented a fatigue based chance already, but I'll note this down

[jagged hamlet]

Then I'd need Lua errors from the logs, if it even happens again

[inner hare]

I can send you the broken save game if you want

I don't have other logs than the ones posted

[rustic latch]

oh ffs. Why would TR devs mark dwemer centurions as "can use weapons"

that's for those that can equip weapons

ah, nvm

[inner hare]

Yeah

[rustic latch]

dammit and I was hoping I'd not need to remove weapon wielding dreugh

but nope, those too

shame

[inner hare]

this is the broken savegame ("Quicksave") and a screenshot which shows the bugs: invisible skill levels for several skills and "nan" text. I guess that the savegame is loadable even if you don't have some of the mods since they are not important in this case. As you can see, the bug affected even sth completely not related to combat like Armorer. I also have two logs generated during the testing sessions. SE logs were turned on only after I noticed the bugs.

and here is the save game I used countless times for testing, on many versions, and it never generated bugs like this. Literally the same place. I just spawned skeletons and fought them by using HTH.

NGarde I'm using

this is all I have

[rustic latch]

Why on earth would Tamriel Data need 19 different types of goblin

[inner hare]

Different models?

For various regions?

[rustic latch]

sort of

but all of them are there twice

once for Cyr and once for Mw

Anyway, blocklist done

[inner hare]

Have you fought Almalexia?

[rustic latch]

56 records for base game and major data mods

not too bad

oh, actually

the fucking alma

can't spawn her in

she disappears

[inner hare]

Then teleport to Mournhold Temple

And startcombat there

[rustic latch]

brb gonna kill gaenor real quick

[inner hare]

"Quick"

5 hours later...

[rustic latch]

I haven't been to mournhold on this save yet

[robust sundial]

If anyone is bored can someone post a video of how hand to hand looks with n’garde? Specifically both enemies being unarmored

[rustic latch]

Welp, that's 58 exceptions

Almalexia also

[rustic latch]

Nothing too special. here, some sparrign with Caius

[tough juniper]

Love that sfx

[amber slate]

I wish sparring was a proper thing in Morrowind

I suppose you can just piss off a summoned creature and spar that way, but that requires magic

I've never really liked training as a mechanic, in any TES game, really

It's a good gold sink but it just feels kind of...phony

[rustic latch]

Will require quite a bit of edge case handling, but I tihnk it can be done

[robust sundial]

Would it be possible to have a slider to decrease or increase the size/magnitude of the sparks when parrying in the mod settings? I know it’s in line with how other effects look with vanilla Morrowind spells/effects, but I think I’d like to play around with it

[young aspen]

this and nine sols I really gotta get my parry skills down

[inner hare]

I think that Wolfweim made FG training mod.

[candid wren]

Down for fixes

[tough juniper]

I was wondering where it was 😅

[candid wren]

Gone gone would be cool to have again or other immersion with training in guilds

[rustic latch]

Ehhh, probably? I haven't messed with that part of VFX attachment

Slider - also maybe, OpenMW doesn't have a native slider rendered. Iirc Ownlyme made one, but I'll need to ask to use it

[rustic latch]

Dammit, almost half a year

[rustic latch]

I don't see an option to scale the VFX size, it will need to be individual models for each size increment, and I can't really do that

[robust sundial]

Ah okay no biggie. I do like the effects but personally would prefer them to be a little less large but it’s very much a nonissue

[rustic latch]

Yeah, so it's a small bit of lua API weirdness, we can scale VFX we spawn somewhere in the world, but we can't get actor rig "bone" positions to spawn these sparks as those, and then we can't scale VFX that we spawn on actor model

[rustic latch]

@candid wren , but yes, depending on how dual wielding is done - if it's a "shield with a weapon model" - you'll parry with it, if it's Dual Wielding Weapon mod - likely it will parry with your right hand weapon

[candid wren]

Ok ok

Again no shields up

[rustic latch]

Do test and let me know. I don't see why it wouldn't. But I'm open to adding compatibility if there are issues

[rustic latch]

wdym?

[candid wren]

Oh the mod that adds active shielding

[rustic latch]

Ah, you shouldn't need it with N'Garde running

[candid wren]

Ok

[rustic latch]

Ah, I see I've missed your question about it yesterday.

Apologies

So N'Garde completely replaces what "Shields Up" does

[inner hare]

Shields Up sounds like an obvious incompatibility

[rustic latch]

and does more for weapons

and imo - does it cleaner - cause the only thing Shields Up does is omegabuff your block skill while you're holding block

well, a couple more debuffs etc, but the principle of it

We also use the same shield Animation with Shield's Up creator permission

[inner hare]

yeah, I never liked that kind of implementation. I understand why such methods were used, though. It was reasonable considering the goal and some players realllyyy wanted active blocking.

[rustic latch]

Completely reasonable yeah

but casues a bunch of issues with restore spells, e.g.

[inner hare]

this mod should offer better blocking and parrying than stock Morrowind (which doesn't even have parrying) and Oblivion and Skyrim as well. Definitely offers a more fluid experience.

Oblivion was probably the worst, as usual

[rustic latch]

That's not particularly high bar

[inner hare]

Good. Then even if sth didn't work, you would still top stock TES experience

[rustic latch]

But we stand on the shoulders on those that came before us. Shield's up was a definite inspiration, as were Oblivion ans Skyrim

[inner hare]

it sometimes reminds me of KCD

although it's more tricky there

because you have to match the attack direction

[rustic latch]

Yeah, definitely and inspiration as well

[inner hare]

this kind of combat doesn't fit Morrowind that well, though

I mean, so much dependent on player's dexterity

[rustic latch]

Yeah, I was considering directional parry

but

no

a) too many new animations

b) It would mean reimplementing Mount&Blade combat in MW

[inner hare]

it will already be challenging enough for a typical player

[rustic latch]

And while I'm very fond of M&B combat - I don't think it fits

[inner hare]

it works there

doesn't need to be copied 1:1

[rustic latch]

eh, probably

Anyway:

** 0.8.1 **

• a list of exceptions for CanUseWeapons creatures that have non-standard rigs and are incompatible with N'Garde animations and handling
• softer measure detection - should be no more wiggle at the edges of each zone. Let me know how it feels
• restored cleanup timer for scritp detach on fencer actors
• slider setting renderer from Ownlyme, using it for parry SFX volume setting.
• swim knockout animations not affected by stunlock prevention

wrong fucking file

[inner hare]

"softer measure detection" - what do you mean?

[rustic latch]

Fencing Measure
Distance between two fencers where they can reach each outher

In Measure - within that distance

Out of measure - further away

[inner hare]

ah, so it's that keeping distance thing we've been talking about for so long?

[rustic latch]

In this specific case - it doesn't just switch logic as soon as it passes a unit threshold - there's a grace distance before next behaviour applies

[rustic latch]

yah

Should fix that wiggle-jiggle thing

[inner hare]

Perfect

[rustic latch]

and should prevent them from just stopping

Also - asked Ownlyme for the slider, wanted to see if I can scale VFX too, not just SFX, but no dice

[candid wren]

I’ll definitely start a new pl with this instead of shields up

[rustic latch]

Both should be safe to add and remove mid playthrough

[inner hare]

is Shields Up lua-based?

probably changes GMST as well

those are usually safe to change mid-game

[rustic latch]

Does, but not much

It just increases max block chance by like 10 or 20 percent

And the rest is lua

[inner hare]

• keeping distance feature works better. Actors tend to be a little bit more aggressive and behave less stupidly if the player is using a spear. One thing I'm wondering about is whether you turn off your movement tweaks if the actor is fleeing. Fleeing behavior can be kind of janky in Morrowind, but it's probably best not to mess with it here.
• I did some tests against skeleton archers. It feels mostly Vanilla-like. Some sidestepping could help them if they are backed against a wall or if there is water behind them. It's a similar thing as with other actors who want to keep distance, though, so not specifically related to archers.
• messages show info about reflecting fatigue damage to the attacker when blocking arrows with a shield. Is it really applied? It definitely shouldn't. In such case the message is fake, though, which is minor but just sth I noticed.
• as mentioned before, balance-wise I think that it would fit the mod the best if parry chance was partially affected by AGI and LCK. Most actors in-game have the same LCK (40) so there wouldn't be much variety here, but it would still affect those who have different LCK and there are cases like that both in Vanilla and in modded content. AGI is much more variable. For general enemy parry chance scaling, I think that you could tone it down a little for enemies with lower skill. I haven't looked at the formula you use for that yet, though. Basing it all on skill, AGI and LCK + Fatigue should provide some variety. As a bonus, the actors will be effected by HBFS, just as they are with Vanilla Block 😉
• in the settings, I still see skill thresholds for perfect parries at 40. I'm unsure what exact impact they have and whether it applies to enemies as well, but I still think that using such a low number is a little strange since it's basically sth any character with a major weapon skill will have at lvl 1-2. I know that in the end, it's raw numbers that matter, but conceptually, 50 seems more appropriate.

using my cave test save, I managed to fuck up SE stats again

this time I came prepared

here is the debug log with Ngarde and SE logs enabled

it's relatively short

@jagged hamlet take a look when you wake up. Seems important. I think it may be related to the way SE reacts with Ngarde handlers, but I'm no expert here.

[candid wren]

Also should I also uninstall these too - https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52180#

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52184

[inner hare]

I think I have Weighty Charged Attacks on. Not sth N'Garde affects, I think, since it's related to attacks only and you can't parry while you are charging your attack.

[rustic latch]

I've no idea how "charge attack parry" works

but from the name - may be uninstall it, yeah

[rustic latch]

1. I'm not touching fleeing behaviour - Really the only tweaks currently are "back off if too close", "walk, not run, if close but not too close"
2. I'm looking into that, realistically probably the best call is to leave archers alone for that and let vanilla/mercy handle them
3. No fatigue is reflected when an attack is ranged. It's just that it is a bit tricky to stuff everything into one message and lua doesn't really support inline conditional statements.
4. Still in notes - I'm not sure I like it, we have fatigue based chance. I'll add it and see how it feels
5. Perfect parry threshold in settings was never touched, I've only touched the skill ratio that affects the window length, it was 40% of the skill, now 35%. The threshold is separate.

[copper raft]

There shouldn't be any reason to because Solthas' mod doesnt apply the same way

[rustic latch]

Also for #5 I can't change your value in settings, I can only change the default

[rustic latch]

[00:41:14.055 I] L@0x1[scripts/skill-evolution/player.lua]: DEBUG: Scale handler: Skill "block", scale 0 -> 0.00000, gain 0.000 / 0.000 -> nan

fuck, may be me fucking up?

let me see

Hmmm.. Not seeign anything obvious, may need mym to weigh in

[candid wren]

Loaded in with this and nothing came up immediately need to get in a proper fight, had to quick save/and load right after removing shields up tho might just be openmw

[rustic latch]

Is the setting page there?

And if not - is there anything in the log?

[candid wren]

Yeaaa it’s there

It’s probably steam input not reading the change or something

I’m not by my laptop to see

[rustic latch]

hm, not sure about that one. But if you can't figure it out - please send me the logs

[candid wren]

Oh no the input works

[rustic latch]

Steam input is that thingy to play games that not really support controller with a controller, right?

[candid wren]

I was saying it didn’t at first but a quick load fixed it

[candid wren]

Yea it’s a god send

[rustic latch]

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood

[candid wren]

Make of my games are retro or old windows ports of old games and it’s super easy to config

There isn’t a sky on openmw I can’t set

[rustic latch]

Nice, well, I haven't tested extensively with the controller, but should work, I think

[candid wren]

PS5 controller with the extra touch pad up top can read as regular key presses and all

[rustic latch]

Nice

Well, let me know how it goes for you

[candid wren]

Imma assume all enemies that usual carry weapons will parry?

[rustic latch]

Yea. Mostly. There are some exceptions like rieklings and goblins. But all npcs will and dremoras, etc will too

[candid wren]

Cool

Ain’t wanna just run in a tomb

[rustic latch]

Skellies will too

[inner hare]

I reset mod settings every update to check defaults

[rustic latch]

Fair, but you're probably the only person who does :D

[rustic latch]

Hmmm. I kind of like the results this produces

not in game yet, just poking at it in a spreadsheet

[inner hare]

Note that I used it as inspiration since it's Vanilla. Not saying it has to be 1:1. Vanilla also has caps but you know that since you set both to 0 😁

[rustic latch]

yup

I would probably want to replace block with mainSkill in this one

It's more likely to be higher, for chosen weapon. And I want the block/parry chance to skew high anyway

there some NPCs in game that have crap skill for their main weapon, but - I'll accept that

[rustic latch]

What's different about this one compared to the previous approach also - is that on high skill enemies are much more likely to try and parry while low on fatigue. Maybe need to move out fatigue factor outside

[candid wren]

It’s very fun for lack of better words honestly, I feel myself actively having to thing about my surroundings, where enemies are and positioning rolling, parrying, blocking and parrying feels so smooth honestly

[inner hare]

Sounds like a good idea. Making enemies less likely to parry on low Fatigue is as much to their benefit as the player. It just makes sense as getting KO makes the fight easier and it rarely happens in Vanilla unless you use HTH and/or magic.

[hearty scroll]

Been keeping an eye on this for a while, it looks very exciting! will probably try this out on my next install.
I'm curious : is there a reason NOT to make AGI and LCK influence parry chance, in addition to fatigue? (aside from being more work ig)

[inner hare]

(skill+(agility/5)+(luck/10))x(0,1+1,25xfatigue%)

I think this is peak for enemy parry chance

high variety for enemies, high values on 100% Fatigue all across the board, high Fatigue impact (which is good for making things dynamic)

max cap can be used as well, but you use cooldowns, anyway. Maybe just 99%.

[tough juniper]

Lol nah looking good

[jagged hamlet]

Seems like N'Garde is providing a scale 0 sometimes, which breaks SE's stats
@rustic latch

I should add a failsafe for it, like stopping the handler chain when scale is 0

I pushed a fix, but you may need to use the broken skills to fix it

[inner hare]

Nexus?

[inner hare]

I don't think it fixes UI display retroactively. Skills will increase and feats will be recognized, but "nan" BS is kept.

[rustic latch]

Hmmm. I've added a limiter to not send negative scale before, didn't think 0 may break it too. I'll add that as well

[rustic latch]

It's not that much work. And to an extent this is already handled by reaction time and parry cool down on low level / skill enemies.

But having formulas resemble vanilla a bit more and integrate more stats is not a bad thing. This will also offer a better chance curve imo.

[inner hare]

it's so beautiful having the feats be recognized in a coherent manner

the only thing left there is changing the Vanilla skill description so it doesn't lie to the player with N'Garde installed

I find it also cool to observe how getting tired gradually makes blocks weaker

[rustic latch]

And yah. Added it last night. just in version published - it never occurred to me that 0 would be a prolem too, not just negative numbers

[jagged hamlet]

OpenMW applies the scale you provide on the skill gain before calling the handlers, and as I need to know the original skill gain, I do gain/scale

[rustic latch]

Makes sense then

So on my end - value was only ever 0 if the parry was bad enough as to not deflect any damage - either very low skill or fatigue, and was done very late after perfect parry window expired

[jagged hamlet]

Damn. Then I'll have to do another update that fixes existing saves

[rustic latch]

I've tweaked that slightly, and added a minimum of 0.01 to scale, although it always should be bigger than that

[rustic latch]

We're slightly in luck cause I'm still not published, so fewer broken saves cause of me :D

[inner hare]

I'm glad it came up now

otherwise people would soon blame somebody for "breaking their game"

[rustic latch]

oh yeah

[inner hare]

moving to perfect parry window calcs now... I will convert the formula to excel straight from the code from 0.8.1b

this should make sure that I will be using the current numbers

mostly interested in skill threshold

and how it interacts with the rest

[rustic latch]

I think I like it. And with high skill level enemies we are less likely to run into fatigue issues in the first place, so they'll parry even more reliably than this suggests

[inner hare]

additional benefit is that all sort of magic effects, item buffs and debuffs as well HBFS modifiers will apply

[rustic latch]

Oh yeah

and for the rest of the formulas - the whole reason I am doingthat "diminishing returns" thing and adding stats and skills into the mix is to make sure values over 100 from fortify effects or SE are valuable

[inner hare]

yeah, understandable

[rustic latch]

Now, I need to sit down and mess with obstacle detection. Enemies now can tell if they "can move" left right or back and will try and sidestep into a free direction

But it's a bit aggressive at the moment

[inner hare]

cooldowns, delay...

random chance

[rustic latch]

and if all 3 fail - move to the nearest pathgrid node

something like that

but actually, let me post version without that, but one that doesn't send 0 scale to SE

• WillParry formula update. Takes main skill, agility and luck into account. (skill+(agility/5)+(luck/10))x(0,1+1,25xfatigue%)
• Potential fix for SE weirdness - making sure we never pass scale that is zero ( Confirmed this is the fix by Mym )
• Better debug message builder

[rustic latch]

Now. The problem here - I don't think there's a way to edit description in lua, and if I can't do it in lua - I'll either need to ship two ESP/omwaddon files (SE and no SE) or drop the idea :/

[inner hare]

it's NCD

but I understand

[rustic latch]

yeah

right

ncg

[inner hare]

and yeah, it's actually the simplest to make an optional ncd skill description patch

base for Vanilla

optional for NCG

I even wrote suggestons for both 😄

none of the mods which change skill descriptions will be compatible

[rustic latch]

So you did:

[inner hare]

fortunately, it's sth that almost no mod touches

most modders don't give a shit even when they change the mechanics

[rustic latch]

Ye, but - it's a very nice touch

[inner hare]

oh yeah

consistency

[rustic latch]

especially if someone uses it in a bigmodlist

[inner hare]

definitely

if N'Garde makes it to some of the MOMW modlists in the future, ngd description fix can be installed by automatic installer

but for now, it can just be an optional file

even if somebody doesn't install it, it's not actually a big deal

but it's a nice touch, as you said

[rustic latch]

What do you think - two files and you enable either or, each with corresponding description and block GMST changes. Or one file with block GMST and vanilla desription and another with only NCG skill description

so you enable both in the second case

[inner hare]

does it make sense for N'Garde to be used without GMST changes?

[rustic latch]

No

[inner hare]

so it should be core

[rustic latch]

But I can make second file depend on the first file

[inner hare]

what I would do is to add ncgdescriptionpatch which only changes that 1 skill description

literally

you load it after the main file

and it will replace the Vanilla version

[rustic latch]

Again better formatted:

1. Two files - used either or:
   1. GMST edit and vanilla description
   2. GMST edit and NCG description
2. Two files - used either together or just #1
   1. GMST edit and vanilla description
   2. Only NCG description

[rustic latch]

so 2, got it

[inner hare]

yeah 😄

it's the simplest IMO

[rustic latch]

yeah

[inner hare]

most intuitive. You only enable if you have ncg. Otherwise, you ignore it.

[rustic latch]

Thoughts on messing with weapon skill descriptions?

[inner hare]

I ignored it because they were vague enough

talked about effectiveness

[rustic latch]

Fair

[inner hare]

nothing broken there

Block is the most complex one

[rustic latch]

Long Blade skill lets one use broadswords, sabers, longswords, claymores, katanas, and dai-katanas effectively.

Develops your strength and agility a good amount each, and your speed a bit.
yeah

[inner hare]

yep

[rustic latch]

use not strike

good

[inner hare]

https://tenor.com/view/putazos-miyagi-tepartotumadre-pat-morita-mr-kesuke-miyagi-gif-8143329

[rustic latch]

Fuck, taking a screenshot of this tooltip in the launcher is tricky

[inner hare]

oh man, the formula for the parry window is quite complex because of this skill curve stuff

[rustic latch]

I may have overcooked

:P

[inner hare]

I have the mastery multiplier ready, perfectparrythreshold, base, max, fatigue % and such. However, you also use main and secondary skill curve and while it looks easy at a glance - you just add them and divide by 100 - the way you calculate them is not exactly clear to me.

    local secondarySkillCurve = self:getStatCurve(secondarySkill, SettingsConstants.perfectParrySecondarySkillRatio,
        skillCurveStep)```

Maybe let's use some real examples here. Can you give me the values (results) for 45 main/secondary and 50?

[rustic latch]

function ParryController.getStatCurve(self, statValue, factor, skillCurveStep)
    local skillCurveLength = floor(statValue / skillCurveStep)
    local skillModulo = statValue % skillCurveStep
    local curve = {}
    local multiplier = factor
    table.insert(curve, min(statValue, skillCurveStep) * multiplier)
    for i = 1, skillCurveLength - 1 do
        multiplier = factor / (1 * (SettingsConstants.baseSkillCurveDivisor * i))
        table.insert(curve, skillCurveStep * multiplier)
        --logging:debug("multiplier:" .. multiplier)
    end
    if skillModulo < statValue then
        table.insert(curve, skillModulo * (multiplier / SettingsConstants.baseSkillCurveDivisor))
    end
    -- for _, v in ipairs(curve) do
    --     logging:debug("curveValue:"..v)
    -- end
    return Helpers.sum(curve)
end

So here. And let me try and explain step by step.

1. take the current skill value and skill curve step. -> determin curve length by dividng skill value by step and taking the integer part of that. Step for perfect parry window is 45
2. first curve value is "minimum of skill curve step and skill value" multiplied by factor (0.35 for perfect parry window main skill)
3. Having gotten that - we iterate skillCurveLength times.
4. on each iteartion multiplier is divided by "skillCurveDivisor" * iteration step number. divisor is 1.05. So here 0.35 / 1.05 on first step, 0.35 / 2.10 on second step etc.
5. Add the remaining skill points that were not enough to fill the entire step
6. Take a sum of these values

For perfect parry window main skill

if the value of skill is 45 - we have just one curve step, so result will be 45*0.35 = 15.75
if it's 50 - we have 15.75 from first step, and then we the remaining 5 becomes 4.761904762 * 0.35 = 1.666666667 for a total of 17.416666667

If it is let's say 95 skill then we have 3 steps
(45 * 0.35) + ((45* 0.35)/1.05) + ((5 * 0.35)/(1.05*2))

[inner hare]

😄

you sure went with complexity here

[rustic latch]

I mean, once I wrote it down - it's not as bad, but yeeeah

[inner hare]

pretty sure it's possible to achieve sth similar with a simpler formula, but I don't want to mess with it. I just want to check the values and see whether anything can be improved balance-wise

so thx for the example

[rustic latch]

Yeah, fairly certain one can do it with a simpler formula. I think I was dead set on making values over 100 mean something which led me to this

[inner hare]

mainskill is weapon, secondary is block?

or block/block

or HTH/HTH

?

because 2 are always used

[rustic latch]

yes

correct on all three counts

[inner hare]

great

I think I have it

I think the results I have here are correct for the formula

[rustic latch]

Seems about right

oh, and effective fatigue multiplier can't go below 0.15 as with other formulas

[rustic latch]

Absolute fire. Nav Ray is exactly what I needed

[inner hare]

• I agree with parry window threshold being 40. Once I converted the formula, I finally understood what it meant and it works ok gameplay-wise, I think, since it prevents parry window from being too generous for starting characters and minor skils, but skill lvl 50 is actually the real "base" value here which seems right.
• I think it's prudent to cap max Fatigue Percent at 125%. You can get it above 100% by using Fortify Fatigue effect (it only affects current Fatigue, not maximum Fatigue) and it may get you into max parry window too easy if it's left unchecked, considering how impactful Fatigue % is in the formula. Most of the time it won't matter at all since Fortify Fatigue isn't used all that often, but it's a good anti-cheese and balance measure. Leave the room for the effect to be useful without making it too strong.
• IMO it's a bit too easy to reach max parry window since you get the max at 75 Block. Since character development is at RPG's core, I propose a slight tweak to constant mods you use (0.35->0,33, 0.13->0.1) in order to push the ceiling a bit higher. Most of the time, the differences should be slight, but I think that they should work well for gameplay. Here is the simulation for 100% Fatigue:

[rustic latch]

Completely forgot about fortify fatigue - yeah it'll be over 1. I'll add a cap.

Hmmm, so going form 0.4->0.35 and 0.15->0.13 wasn't enough. Fair - let's do that, I was looking to tune them a bit further down anyway

[inner hare]

it gets easier to tune the numbers once real examples are used

[rustic latch]

oh, definitely

What I was doing half the time is spawn an enemy, toggle ai, enable logs and mess with thier skill levels

This is much appreciated stuff you're doing

1.25 you think? hmmmm

[inner hare]

or even 1,2

I will show you sth

this is 1.5, lmao

1.25

[rustic latch]

yah, nah that's a bit much

:D

[inner hare]

1.2

so 1.2-1.25 seems fine for cap

there should be some room for the effect to be useful

[rustic latch]

Agreed

[inner hare]

note that once it expires, you get a debuff

because your current fatigue gets lowered

it can fuck you up sometimes

[rustic latch]

Dammit, the way I've implemented the variation for fatigue effects makes this tricky

[inner hare]

you use current/max

no cap

[rustic latch]

Current max - then passed through this:

the last one with new cap added

[inner hare]

so it's ok

[rustic latch]

I'm looking at the first one, and not sure how to add the 1.2 cap there without it being stupid