Devilish Needs

[oblique imp]

this is what Basic Needs does. Seems ok although I'm not sure that "Peckish" deserves lowered STR as lowered carrying capacity for being peckish seems like a stretch and can be mildly annoying for low lvl characters

weakness to blight/disease could easily be expanded to cover other types of needs at low lvls

[civic cosmos]

Eating should debuff SPD and maybe body temp for a while

Intermittent fasting yields big gainz IRL is all

"Peckish" is a modern myth. Probably just dehydrated, or undernutrified from eating crappy foods

[oblique imp]

here peckish is just mild hunger

when I'm slightly hungry, it definitely doesn't lower my strength, lol

-6 STR is actually a big deal to low lvl characters

Some ideas for extreme weather:
-> blizzard could gradually increase hunger and tiredness
-> blight storms and ash storms could gradually increase thirst and tiredness

[civic cosmos]

It could park a mage, the STR penalty

[oblique imp]

yeah, a bit annoying. I think that it should be removed for such a low hunger lvl. Can be replaced with sth else. Maybe the personality debuff should happen sooner. People tend to get more irritable when they are hungry 😄

for high hunger lvls STR debuff is justified

[civic cosmos]

IRL one needs to be bona fide hungry for days to lose actual physical strength.

I'm inspired to make a thorough reimagining of the penalties, knowing just now that it is on the table

[oblique imp]

I don't think that the current ones are bad. That -6 STR for Peckish stands out. The rest isn't bad. There could be a small PER debuff for Peckish instead of STR. Weakness to Disease/Blight could also be applied for high Hunger and Thirst lvls

[hardy sentinel]

weather is not accessible via lua

[oblique imp]

😦

[hardy sentinel]

nvm

[oblique imp]

wait

[hardy sentinel]

it is

[oblique imp]

yeah

I was about to say that

😄

[hardy sentinel]

getcurrentweather

setting weather isn't, I confused the two

[oblique imp]

just food for thought, then

[civic cosmos]

I am resigned to the fact that very few users of this mod would have ever practiced intermittent fasting. I work much better on an empty stomach (stronger, lighter, sharper), but that is ketosis and an uncommon mindset

[oblique imp]

it would be completely unintuitive for the purposes of this mod

[civic cosmos]

Food dulls the mind and slows the body but I get it

Fasting can cure most modern disease, but I get it

[violet crest]

Imagine each water body has it's own texture so techincally maybe.

[oblique imp]

I think that the Inner Sea, Odai, cave water, lakes etc. are all the same when it comes to textures.

[ebon finch]

if the goal is to keep the raw meat thing, then i think the easiest approach would be to handle it like the other stats. meaning instead of trying to identify meat through the effect name, just have a list of raw ingredients like your food lists.
the main advantage ofc is that it can follow the same logic as your current patches. meaning other mods could offer their own lists with their mods (assuming it is possible to just read in all files in a predefined folder ... traditionally would be jsons but i guess any format works)

and it gives you freedom to define the "sickness" variable a bit more

you wouldn't be restricted to just meat and the worm disease

[dense nymph]

does the mod block magicka from regening during sleep?

[past crystal]

Maybe something like this, if it could be done in openmw? https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52928.
It doesn't have to be so complicated, just change the function of different apparatuses and add a mechanic that making potions takes time (that would play really nicely with devilish need, because anything that takes time has a cost.

[hardy sentinel]

It shouldn't. There used be stunted magicka if you were thirsty, but I think I changed that

[civic cosmos]

It would be really nice to nerf 1000x potions with one click, or at least make it cost adequate game time

I think we might be talking about Devilish Alchemy now, though 😂

[violet crest]

I'm just waiting for an Arx Fatalis magic implementation, physics Lua for the win.

[dense nymph]

tbh most likely completely custom magic implementation is already possible - someone just have to get inspired bout it

animations can be played, mana can be taken, magic effects can be applied

nothing really in a way of spawning a wall of fire made of vfx on the floor and applying a fire damage magic effect to any actor within it

[oblique imp]

that's interesting because TR has custom spell effects that are MSWE-only because of lua limitations of OMW

[dense nymph]

its probably just not as straight-forward as MWSE, and also no way to edit spell descriptions, unless you use a special custom implemented menu for that, which is also possible

[keen orbit]

I'm running latest version of the mod and dont seem to have an option of filling up my bottles at kegs or via publican dialogue (at least, in Eight Plates in Balmora, which in BCOM has kegs, not sure about vanilla though)

BCOM's well in Balmora isnt interactable too

[vestal turtle]

As a matter of curiosity, does the script that gives you blight during ash storms distinguish between ash storms on Vvardenfell and ash storms in, say, the Armun Ashlands of TR where blight shouldn't be a risk?

[oblique imp]

Blight storm is not the normal type of ash storm. Separate weather types.

[vestal turtle]

Huh! Ok. :)

[hardy sentinel]

might be too far away from the publican

[hardy sentinel]

BCOM wells in Balmora definitely work.

You need to just sneak near them now

They can be reset by going inside a door and coming back

[keen orbit]

Okay, sneaking near a well works

Ooooookay, my bad

The one in the Caldera doesnt seem to work, though

[keen orbit]

What's the topic you need to use to get the publican to fill your bottles?

[hardy sentinel]

Addtopic "fill your flasks"

local wellIds = {
["ex_nord_well_01"] = true,
["ab_ex_hlawell01"] = true,
["ex_nord_well_01a"] = true,
["furn_well00"] = true,
["t_com_set_well_02"] = true,
["t_com_set_welldg_01"] = true,
["t_bre_setostr_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_de_setind_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_de_sethla_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_de_setred_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_de_setmh_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_legioncyr_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_legionmw_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_legionsky_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_setgcpoor_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_setkva_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_setnord_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_setsky_x_well_02"] = true,
["t_nor_set_well_03"] = true,
["t_nor_set_well_01"] = true,
["t_nor_set_well_02"] = true,
["t_nor_set_well_04"] = true,
["t_nor_set_well_05"] = true,
["t_nor_setskaal_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_setsky_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_setkva_x_well_02"] = true,
["_ex_hlaalu_well"] = true,
["bw_ex_hlaalu_well"] = true,
["ex_imp_well_01"] = true,
["ex_imp_well_01_square"] = true,
["ex_redoran_well_01"] = true,
["izi_hlaalu_well"] = true,
["r0_red_well"] = true,
["rp_mh_well_01"] = true,
["rp_red_well"] = true,
["rp_ww_izi_hlaalu_well"] = true,
["t_de_setveloth_x_well_01"] = true,
["t_imp_setmw_x_fountain_01"] = true,
["t_imp_legionmw_x_well_02"] = true,
["t_rga_setreach_x_pool_01"] = true,
}
-- Determine if object should be replaced with

these are currently supported

So, yes seems like I need to add rm_well

thanks

[keen orbit]

:(

[hardy sentinel]

fill up flasks?

[keen orbit]

I double checked mod's version and it says 1.3.8

[hardy sentinel]

Addtopic "fill up flasks"

[keen orbit]

Now it works, thanks

[ebon finch]

@hardy sentinel do you have a minute? i made a slightly modified version of your mod to implement&potentially expand the raw meat/disease feature. if it's ok with you i would like to upload it here for you to checkout.

[violet crest]

I would be interested in looking at that code as well.
Would you consider uploading to git repo?

[ebon finch]

its not really worth making a git repository for it. i ll just throw it in here as an archive. well if devil is cool with it ... it's his code after all.

it's just a slight addition thats intended to handle "toxic" substances the same as the mod handled consumables ... just that it's optional (meaning the old patches still work)

so instead of searching for stuff like "meat" as a string you can assign any key value to items and use those to dish out any disease/debuff you like

for example personally i would love to see some ash based disease (mainly for the expanded food mod) or you could punish stupidity, like eating corprus items or anything daedric

[limpid yew]

So, I'm not sure if this has been brought up or is feasibly possible... Since the mod checks for kegs and wells based on what I am assuming is meshes, could it be possible to do the same for pre-built campfires?

[civic cosmos]

It would be nice to kick it and cook with the lads outside the eggmine south of Balmora while working for the FG

[hardy sentinel]

yes, I'm all ears

[hardy sentinel]

I can check them, but I'm not sure if I can put the mwscript on them via lua. Putting a script on all campfires may be a bad idea.

also, I coded it so that the campfire you create exists exactly once in the world. If another campfire is created the other is deleted (for placement script reasons)

[limpid yew]

I had a feeling there was a reason they aren't like the kegs. Oh well. Still great stuff either way

I forget... are there "ovens" in TD/OAAB?

I want to say BCoM have them in inns

Basically I'm trying to think of ways to provide cooking other than the campfire... unless those already exist and I haven't read about it or discovered it ingame lol

[hardy sentinel]

I haven't done anything with ovens, although I probably could implement baking if I cared enough

but yes, definitely in the realm of doable

[hardy sentinel]

Anyone can just post suggestions here

[ebon finch]

ok i need to do one more test real quick but if i didn't screw up it should be worth it (should be able to remove the hardcoded filepaths for the patches)

ok in there is a readme with a detailed list of exactly what i changed but to sum it up:

first the important stuff:

1. i added a null check in your global.lua & data_global.lua consume&container methods

for example the expanded food patch caused a null pointed exception and assume script crash due to not having containers

this should fix that and prevent future issues

2. i removed the esp&esm based patching and instead used the openm vfs library to access the patch folder and all its lua files in it

that way modders should be able to publish their own patches without you or god fobid them having to modify core files of your mod

3. i moved your meat check (renamed to checkForWaterEffects) to the onConsume method instead of firing every frame

and the final thing is the toxicity system ... bascially a copy of your consumable pipeline, just optional

that way ingredients&dishes can be defined in the same patch files with a disease key (string) and a disease chance

that should allow you to expand on the diseases as much as you want without any guesswork in regards to id names

the first 2 i would recommend to take over for certain 🙂 the 3rd well is more of a feature suggestion i guess

[hardy sentinel]

I'll have a closer look. Thanks for your work

[ebon finch]

quick question ... if i read things right, the main issue that requires the loading of patches to be bound to the onNewGame function is a memory leak?
do you by any chance remember how rapidly the saves grow?
or well how much growth is too much?

because i just tried simply disabling in data_globals the onSave function & rerouting onLoad to onNewGame and it grows roughly by 1 kb per save ... which so far looks very similar to the growth without any changes (but i am currently not on a clean install so maybe some other mod is contributing to that kb)

[hardy sentinel]

With F10 you can look at the dedicated memory, if you load your game (quicksave, reload & repeat) many times it seems to grow without end

[hardy sentinel]

local vfs = require('openmw.vfs')

Is the vfs included?

[ebon finch]

its one of openmw's default libraries

[hardy sentinel]

oh, I'm sorry. I've just never used it before

[ebon finch]

yeha i was lucky to stumble upon it in the wiki

[hardy sentinel]

so does it still use the patches in the same format?

[ebon finch]

morrowind.lua is the patch i used to test things

if a table with the key toxicsubstances is in the file then it gets added to the list otherwise it just does the default behavior

downside is that you have to define an ingredient/meal twice ... once like before and if you want to add a disease then as a toxic substance

[hardy sentinel]

That's acceptable. I'm just wondering how the patches work without this:

whether I can still add support for other esps

[ebon finch]

oh it uses the file directory instead

any lua file inside the patches folder gets loaded

[hardy sentinel]

Looks like you've done a great job so far. I'll test and tinker with it a bit to ensure the current functionality is still in effect

[ebon finch]

sure, hope it helps

oh i see one slight screwup on my part ... in player.lua: playerConsumedToxicSubstance() the racecheck for wood elf is missing. must have forgotten to add it

[hardy sentinel]

It's fine. I think I can code that

[hardy sentinel]

Everything seems to work as intended

[ebon finch]

awesome

[hardy sentinel]

@ebon finch , I've uploaded Version 1.3.9. There is only one thing I couldn't figure out and that is how to add "toxic substances" to the other supported patches. I'd appreciate it if you could give it a look. I assumed I could just add support like you did for the morrowind lua file.

[hardy sentinel]

nvm, I think it works

[ebon finch]

gave it a quick glance, but it looks good, should work. if not give me a ping and i ll take a more indebth look tomorrow

[keen orbit]

Been getting this error when trying to drink after aupdating to 1.3.9

[ebon finch]

ok this is a weird one ... anyways most important question first:
do you remember what item you consumed when this error got thrown?

[keen orbit]

pretty much any water bottle, including asking for food and water from a publican

[ebon finch]

the food&drink option? i ll try it but just to make sure, was this on a fresh save?

or did you update an old game

[keen orbit]

no, i updated from 1.3.8

[ebon finch]

ahh ok that's the issue then

i can hack it (did it on my run) but i cannot guarantee that it will not cause issues

if you want i ll give you a version of the script to use one time (as in load your save and then save in a new slot)

and then you replace it with the original file again

the problem is the ingredient list isn't updated mid game so we have to be tricky here

[keen orbit]

mmmmm, id prefer a somewhat stable fix (if its even possible)

for the time being i can just disable thirst

[ebon finch]

ok to explain what i meant ... ideally the list of ingredients in the patches would be loaded everytime you load into the game
problem is that this somehow causes the save file to grow (slightly) with each save.
that's why right now it is only done once (on the start of a new character)

doing it once more shouldn't be to bad, just it shouldn't be done with each reload

[keen orbit]

uh huh

[ebon finch]

🙂

[keen orbit]

then ok

:)

[ebon finch]

ok you know how to manually install mods in openmw right?

i need you to add this do your mod folder like any new mod and add the data path entry in your openmw.cfg

then run the game, load your save, save the game in a fresh save and quit again

and finally remove or comment our the data path you just added

[keen orbit]

ofc

[ebon finch]

@hardy sentinel i don't wanna jinx it, but i think i got the memory leak fixed. at least i now saved about 10-15 times in the same slot and had no bloat in the lua profiler as well as the same save file size as my control save i made at the start

all i did was manually destruct the variables by setting them nil. maybe somehow luas garbage collection didn't work in this case?

[hardy sentinel]

I'll test it. I appreciate your contributions

[ebon finch]

no problem. i like your mod and had some free time at hand 🙂

[hardy sentinel]

I assume this means you could install the mod midplaythrough

probably, at least the chances are much better 😄

on load should in theory create all the necessary references

[ebon finch]

i think so ... or at least it should read updated patch files now

hmm might have been a bit to optimistic. i am getting an error now

[forest laurel]

Nice work! I kinda hoped someone would pick up the torch on this 😅

[hardy sentinel]

Does it go away if you quicksave and reload?

[hardy sentinel]

Yes, please keep in mind that I picked up the work of a game dev and a programmer. I'm not necessarily as familiar with some of their methods.

[forest laurel]

Don't sweat it too much, some of the best mods have been done by people outside of the field :)

[ebon finch]

yeah was a bit premature ... the saves still grow. damn

[hardy sentinel]

it's alright. This happened on my first try to do this "onLoad" too

[ebon finch]

what's strange is that it doesn't seme to always grow

i have several save&loads where the allocated memory stays the same and then suddenly a jump by 20+mb

[hardy sentinel]

When it happened to me it only showed changes when allocated memory doubled

so 1000 kb, next 2000kb next 4000kb anything inbetween would display the previous memory allocation

[hardy sentinel]

something I'd like to address in the future is that potions satisfy your thirst too

[deep otter]

Can you look into adding a toggle for the chance to catch a blight disease during a blight storm, for compatibility with other mods that have different implementations of that feature

[hardy sentinel]

the blight storm logic is from Ashfall, which is written in mwscript, which means you can't easily toggle it

[deep otter]

Ah, unfortunate

[hardy sentinel]

People have this idea that making something toggleable is easy. This is usually only the case if the mod had the toggleability in mind while writing the scripts.

[deep otter]

Well I appreciate the response and do enjoy your work, thank you

[hardy sentinel]

I'd probably be more inclined to remove the blight mechanic from this mod.

It's not something I'd really need for a needs mod.

[slate saddle]

I agree with that

[hardy sentinel]

Something I consider is moving more of the logic out of mwscripts and into lua files.

This is particularly true for the Frostwind stuff. Mwscript should ideally only send signals, which will be processed in lua scripts.

Also, I might add a separate dialogue patch for TR, Shotn, Cyrodiil because some of the publicans don't have thave typical "publican" class, whcih I use for the "food and drink", "fill up flasks" dialogue.

[hardy sentinel]

I'm getting reports from two people having issues with 1.3.9. Apparently they can't fill up bottles. I assume it's user error. Let me know if you experience the same issue.

[hardy sentinel]

It's a bit of a mystery why people seem to have issues. I tested this three times on a fresh install.

[ebon finch]

i am trying to reproduce the issue but so far no luck ... someone was nice enough to offer some changed code at the nexus page but to me at least at first glance the code should not make any difference

[hardy sentinel]

Yes, for me it works perfectly fine

I tested this three times

[ebon finch]

purely theorcrafting here but assuming it isnt just user error, then the most likely candidate could be either a conflict with some alternate start mod or ... is it possible that the script times out during a heavy load?

i mean my laptop is old and i am running a modified version of vanilla expanded with no issue but idk maybe that's something

is there a way we can check for timeouts and write a logger?

[hardy sentinel]

I think we should wait a bit longer for more feedback. I'm not entirely convinced there is in fact something wrong about the current version

[ebon finch]

fair enough

[unreal nebula]

Nothing but Bard + i ❤️ director's cut; + the food item, nothing i can tell in cs touches this at all.

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/56699

somehow i'm getting dampworm on a fair number of types of foods from expanded loot

any idea what could be causing this?

[hardy sentinel]

version 1.3.8 gives you a damp worm anytime you consume an item of the id "meat" (in vanilla and tr, all such items are raw meats)

version 1.3.9 works differently via a hand selected id list of raw meats

[unreal nebula]

ah, so out dated and just need to update

gotcha

[hardy sentinel]

yes, but keep in mind that this mod can only be updated via a "new game"

[unreal nebula]

for this update nothing seems off, i assume it's because it's such a minor script change

yeah can confirm, the foods aren't giving dampworm now

[hardy sentinel]

food and drinks satiate your needs after updating midsave?

bottle filling still works?

just checking for your sake

[unreal nebula]

yeah did the mechanics testing

i'd imagine any bigger update would cause problems

but something this minor didn't even make a blip

[hardy sentinel]

I'm so baffled because some people have issues with 1.3.9 and it works like clockwork for me 😄

[unreal nebula]

don't worry as a mod author i know the feeling when someone picks your mod on dice roll out of the 500 mods they added mid playthrough to blame for their horse now being a tree

[hardy sentinel]

Yes, I'll probably still try to see whether I can address their issues in a minor update.

Maybe it's a compatiblity issue

[unreal nebula]

unless they know their own mod lists, good luck

[hardy sentinel]

they were so nice to give me the log error message

so, that's something to work with

[unreal nebula]

wait actually?

bruh when i'm on the nexus they just go "ur mod dum it make npc not have head"

lucky

morrowind players really are a different breed

[fringe socket]

It seems like sleeping in my own bedroll often doesn't reset my fatigue. Is this based on the location where I place the bedroll? Am I missing something?

[hardy sentinel]

The exhaustion reset is tied to the "well rested" bonus. I think it should work with the sleep roll as well, but I'll have a look

Are you on the latest version 1.3.9?

[fringe socket]

Yeah. I'm seeemingly not getting the well-rested bonus (no notification)

[hardy sentinel]

Everything else works fine, right?

[fringe socket]

Only from my own bedroll. Beds in inns work fine

[hardy sentinel]

I'll keep an eye out

Haven't checked bedrolls much, so yes maybe

[fringe socket]

And it happens quite often, but not always. The other day I reloaded my save 3 times and slept before it finally worked.

[hardy sentinel]

maybe the script makes a difference between resting "until healed" and "normal resting"

until healed, might give you the rested bonus whereas the other does not

[fringe socket]

Could be. I don't use "until healed", not ever

[hardy sentinel]

I think that might explain it

because normal resting just contributes to exhaustion (intended)

[fringe socket]

But it does work in inns. And again, I never use "until healed"

[hardy sentinel]

hmm

[fringe socket]

Oh, I probably should have mentioned. I'm using Total Overhaul with this so it might be another mod. The rest of Devilish Needs works just fine, though, so it didn't occur to me to mention it

Is there any way I can track down the issue? I imagine the log probably woudln't help?

[hardy sentinel]

I appreciate it. I don't think this is a mod incompatibility but rather how my script detects sleeping in "non standard beds"

I don't think this is dramatic for now, but I'll keep it in mind and check it

[unreal nebula]

I did notice it not appreciating the census bedroll either

Director's I ❤️ vanilla list

but that's extremely minor when fargoth gets robbed blind of generously offers 300 gold

[silver stag]

Somebody finally found the conflict, this makes textures flicker in both Better Bars and Oblivion Style Lockpicking. Any idea why?

[hardy sentinel]

No clue to be honest

[silver stag]

Maybe it's the HUD, when I switch horizontal to vertical Better Bars disappears few seconds. Is there way to disable HUD?

[hardy sentinel]

No, but the icons are disabled when you are in screenshot mode

enter it via command tm

[silver stag]

Better Bars get disabled too, but Oblivion Style Lockpicking still flickers in tm mode.

[ebon finch]

the census bed issue isn't unique to this mod ... i think i remember reading that it is the only bed in mw that behaves differently. which i guess makes sense, given that you can access it during the tutorial, before all features (like saving) are enabled

[fringe socket]

Interesting thing that happens with unpaused dialogue (Dynamic Actors). The occasional system message appears as part of the dialogue, leading to some pretty funny moments. Would this be a simple fix or is it more trouble than it's worth? It's really not a big issue but the perfectionist in me would enjoy seeing it fixed 😄

[umbral matrix]

"you look tired, am I boring you?" 😁

[hardy sentinel]

I'm probably going to remove the "well rested" messages at some point. I'm just currently playing Morrowind for a bit

[bright scarab]

I love this mod, well done! One minor thing has been bothering me, which is that the chance to catch a blight disease in blight storms seems to be incredibly high. Every time I leave ghostgate, I will have already caught some disease before I even reach the shrine of pride just on the other side of the fence. I'm using better blight https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/48395 so the diseases are actually interesting, but I don't think this should affect the infection chance

[hardy sentinel]

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/56951?tab=posts

I can't mod much at the moment. I work full time.

The mod above is useful for people who have trouble with the small icon size

[oblique imp]

I just contracted Ash Chrance in Arrile's Tradehouse O_o. I only used food and drink option, but I contracted the disease later on. I also got the message about being caught in a blight storm despite being in an interior and seeing no blight storm.

Also, if death is enabled, I seem to die in prison

Death also happens very quickly if enabled. Sth like 21-24 hrs with no eating, sleeping and drinking and I die

[hardy sentinel]

Blightstorm effects will maybe be removed in a future version. I just don't have much time to mod anymore. I usually play without "death" enabled, I just didn't bother to make this decision for you.

There is this comment about a possible adjustment to my code. Do people have issues with the latest version with this error?: [19:26:48.768 E] Global[scripts/basicneeds/global.lua] eventHandler[PlayerConsumeItem] failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/basicneeds/data_global.lua"]:140: attempt to index upvalue 'toxicSubstances' (a nil value)
[19:26:48.768 E] stack traceback:
[19:26:48.768 E] [string "scripts/basicneeds/data_global.lua"]:140: in function 'getToxicSubstancesValues'
[19:26:48.768 E] [string "scripts/basicneeds/global.lua"]:57: in function <[string "scripts/basicneeds/global.lua"]:47>
[19:26:48.768 E] [C]: in ?

For all I know the latest version is functional

[hardy sentinel]

I'm tempted to use the suggested method from the comments since I can't replicate the issue, but the suggestion seemed to work for some people.

[oblique imp]

What I meant is that death seems weirdly implemented. You shouldn't die in 24h of no rest/eating/drinking. It's too quick. You also shouldn't die in prison.

[hardy sentinel]

It's not ideal for sure. Feel free to give me code suggestions to fix it

I guess the death limit of the individual needs can be adjusted to be doubled

the prison stuff is harder to crack

[oblique imp]

Can you export death limit check to the mod settings? If yes, then that would be easy to solve for any player. Default value is 1000 IIRC. Definitely should be higher. I doubt that many players expect to die in a day because it's counterintuitive.

[hardy sentinel]

maybe

tripled the death value

after three days you die, basically

maybe this is how that works, not sure what the condition of the death status is

[oblique imp]

Is it a change you made right now or is it from the current Nexus version? Just checking because I want to be sure whether it's even functioning correctly (I die by waiting 24h after chargen)

[hardy sentinel]

I'm modifying it right now

Not sure if it will work

[hardy sentinel]

This doesn't seem to work

[civic cosmos]

3 weeks without food, 3 days without water, 3 minutes without air, IRL

[oblique imp]

It can vary IRL but 24h is bad from both realism perspective and gameplay perspective. Best to keep it disabled for now IMO.

[civic cosmos]

IMO 24 hours without food should have zero penalty

[oblique imp]

Obv it won't work in such a mod

[civic cosmos]

"Three square meals" is just commercial dogma

[oblique imp]

That being said, needs rate is actually configurable (separately for every time)

[civic cosmos]

Sorry for venting a bit there 😊

[oblique imp]

that blight issue is weird. Maybe it's caused by some incompatibility with Solthas' blight mod. I disabled most of it but maybe I need to disable all of it and see what happens

btw using this mod with Alchemical Hustle is a bit counter-intutive because water and soup can cause toxicity. AH is party of the modlists, a very common mod. I asked AH's author whether something can be done with this. I will also mention this here because maybe DetailDevil knows how to make these mods work better together

[hardy sentinel]

• they feed you in prison now

• your needs are unaffected while fast travelling

• reduced the default values of thirst, food and hunger to more realistic levels (2 days without water = death)

• implemented the comment suggestion (to fix a problem I can't replicate)

currently testing whether there are new issues

I personally play without death enabled, but I guess people have different tastes

[oblique imp]

Sure! It's just that if the feature is there and can work better, improvements are nice

[oblique imp]

Btw what does tent do and what's the difference between a bedroll and a covered bedroll in-game?

[hardy sentinel]

it protects against blight storms and it looks atmospheric

the prison detection and handling of resetting all needs is trickier than anticipated

[hardy sentinel]

I got a prison dection that works, but the problem is that whenever you reach the death stage (even briefly), the needs mechanics seem to stop (e.g. they stop being affected by time or food and so on)

hmm, maybe

I have been on this problem since yesterday, but I have an idea

I think I got it. That was a tough issue

[hardy sentinel]

currently testing on fresh game on latest OpenMW dev build

[hardy sentinel]

1.4 is out: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/56480

1.4, improves the mod for people who enable the "death" option. They feed you in prison now. You can no longer die while fast-travelling either. Default thirst and hunger rates are reduced

[signal bramble]

Oh hey! Just managed to fine this channel. I complimented this mod in another channel and recommend it to people as much as possible and want to say thank you for the great work

[flint shuttle]

Maybe I just can't find it, but it seems there's no fur cloaks mod for Morrowind.
There's a cape mod by Olaf, but no furs. I think it's essential for survival roleplay.

[signal bramble]

imo that can be tricky since there's no "cloak" armor/inventory slot in morrowind and even more tricky if you wanted to make it cloth instead of light armor
But I do agree that having extra articles of clothing to increase warmth rating / decrease exposure is helpful. In my games I just make sure I have a shirt+pants on underneath armor and that usually helps but I prefer to have spells that would increase or decrease warmth haha, I'm just not exactly sure how I could mod spells like that

[flint shuttle]

Well, it doesn't have to increase any warmth rating in my opinion. Just be. For roleplay. I always try to react to the weather even without any survival mods.

[hardy sentinel]

Sounds great. When will you start working on this mod?

[flint shuttle]

I'm not a modder. If I was, the mod would be already here.

[hardy sentinel]

Alright, what stops you from learning how to mod?

There's a blender channel for creating models in the MMC discord. I know very little about creating models from scratch.

So we're pretty much on the same level with regard to this area of modding

[signal bramble]

Oh hey, do you know if it's possible to add support to stuporstar's tea mod? https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/54144?tab=description
If you're not familiar with it, it adds tea to the game that you can brew in the form of potions. I'm not sure how simple it is, since the teas act as potions when they're in the inventory and it might just be a matter of adding potions to thirst values
It's not a big deal if not, i always carry water on me anyways but thought it would be nice. I don't have a lot of experience with modding but if it's simple enough I'd be willing to try my hand at it

[hardy sentinel]

it should be possible to support it. I'm currently on a break from modding

it's essentially an id list in a lua file

looks like this

just with the ids of that mod

and for every hunger value hu = 0

If you want to try this, you'd need to open the esp of that mod in the construction set, look for the ids in alchemy and create the list

[signal bramble]

Sure no problem I completely understand

Great thank you!!

[signal bramble]

Oh yeah, I think I saw something in bug notes or troubleshooting but looking back, I can’t find it. When I rest for 8 hours I receive the well-rested buff but the tired debuff doesn’t go away until I rest again. I get around this by keeping hackle-lo in my inventory which makes the tired debuff go away entirely haha (nothing perks you up like some hackle-lo!) but figured I’d ask if someone knew. Not a huge problem though like I said

[golden glade]

yeah, that's a thing from the old basic needs, I suppose?

now all my characters are either sleep-deprived smokers or sleep-deprived drug addicts...

[hexed light]

I have the same problem with resting. Also, does any one have issues with the fortify fatigue effect not applying properly? I have an openmw fortify fix which should work, but it somehow doesn't seem take this mod into account (fix loaded almost last in the list)

[signal bramble]

Just eat some hackle-lo lol!!

[hardy sentinel]

Resting as in waiting does not reduce exhaustion

[hardy sentinel]

I deliberately changed that from the Basic Needs mod. Resting restores fatigue, Sleeping restores "exhaustion/tiredness"

[hexed light]

The problem is that exhaustion is not restored when sleeping in the bed provided by a tavern or inn unless you save, reload, and sleep again for an hour. Plus the issue with the fatigue buff. (Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the mod and couldn't play without it)

[next kayak]

Just wanted to say: I really really like that change! It does so much to overall gameplay. No more I rest in this dungeon and all is good again. Nope you have to plan ahead 🙂

[hardy sentinel]

That's strange. Sleeping in a normal bed for 8 hours should just restore your tiredness

I haven't encountered this issue in my playthrough

[hexed light]

I think that's the reason why a number of people are reporting the same thing. Maybe it's a case of mod-added beds and hammocks, though I can't see why that would be the case. I'll test some more. I have the latest openmw, plus a fortify fix, and a mod which prevents resting anywhere except with bedrolls, hammocks, or beds.

[signal bramble]

With the mod that prevents resting in certain places, is that comprehensive overhaul? I run that too but without that module installed

[hexed light]

Yes, that's the mod in question.

[signal bramble]

I’m assuming it’s a problem on my end with how many mods/scripts I have running, I’m just not sure where the conflict would be haha

Since I get the “well rested” text and my fatigue is restored but not tiredness. I think something with comprehensive overhaul changes fatigue yeah? Is that it maybe?

Also just resting for 8 hrs twice makes the tiredness go away rather than reloading or whatever. Or just do what I do and eat hackle-lo to restore tiredness 🤣

[hexed light]

It's not that, I don't use the Fatigue module, there are other mods for that.

[signal bramble]

If I’m able to get that tea mod working with this I’ll probably see about having coffee and tea restore tiredness as well

If I’m feeling more ambitious I might try my hand at uvirith’s grave

[hexed light]

From what I noticed, the fortify fatigue effect seems to work yet it is immediately cancelled if I eat or drink something to restore hunger or thirst

[signal bramble]

Huh, that’s strange yeah I don’t have that problem

[hexed light]

To clarify, the Well-Rested fortify fatigue effect remains in the UI, but I just lose the stamina bonus on the stamina bar

[signal bramble]

Hmm, if we’re both having the same problem and running similar mods then maybe it’s a conflict somewhere. We can compare if you want. What scripts do you have running?

But yeah I like comprehensive balance for certain things but just had trouble with it and a travel mod. Because it has an addon for recalculating travel prices, it conflicts with Immersive Traveling which has its own travel costs calculated, so the dialogue menus for traveling just get wacky and unusable if you run them both at the same time

[tropic finch]

Is this configurable for different races vanilla and or modded? Stuff like chaning freeze & thirst rates or also food stuff?

[hardy sentinel]

No, it's not configurable. Nords and Khajiit are slightly more resiliant towards coldness.

[signal bramble]

If I wanted to add a spell that increased or decreased warmth, how could I add that to the files? I just want fire shield and frost shield to warm me up and cool me down respectively haha. If that's not possible it's fine, but I figure it might be since frost spells make you cold and fire spells make you hot

[hardy sentinel]

No easy way to do this.

fire damage and frost damage already do that, just not the shield effect

[cursive plaza]

really itching to install this mid-playthrough but I just know it'll break.

[signal bramble]

Word np!

[hardy sentinel]

Version 1.4.1 is out. I removed the blight disease mechanic in blight storms. It's unrelated to needs and should be a separate mod

I'm very focussed on work at the moment so there's little time for modding. Something I consider is having another look at the concrete debuffs (make them more uniform, perhaps nerf them a bit).

If I can manage, perhaps allow for potions to satisfy thirst too.

[signal bramble]

Word thank you !! I play with a few bought mods and the stacking debuffs were brutal, made for a good challenge but a bit punishing 🤣
Potions satisfying thirst would be great, though I think i saw somewhere in your code that you seemed to start on that?

[hexed light]

Does the update require a new game?

[hardy sentinel]

Probably, I cannot guarantee anything else

[misty sable]

Sorry to bother but I've been wondering if this mod is compatible with Tamriel rebuilt and the other expansion mods

[tardy axle]

I use it with Total Overhaul mod list which has TR and the other landmass expansions and haven't had a problem

[misty sable]

Yeah but are the temperature stuff accurate? Do you get colder in Skyrim and stuff?

[tardy axle]

yep

it's really immersive

Cyrodiil is hot, Skyrim is cold

[misty sable]

Splendid!

[turbid peak]

Does anyone know if this would be affected by something like Seasonal Weather of Vvardenfell?

[hardy sentinel]

No, Devilish Needs checks your coordinates and cells for temperature

[violet crest]

Made a big mistake. Scripts are not working as expected.

[chrome merlin]

hello, does this mod work with NCGDMW?
back then i was using "basic need" and its not compatible becaue it messed the attribute calculation?

[oblique imp]

How so? It's just debuffs applied via an effect

[chrome merlin]

i think it giving me non stop pop up window if i remember correctly.. then after the debuff gone my strength not getting back as it should be..
but anyway im gonna try it again.. and if still not working im just gonna leave it.. and try to search another mod

[oblique imp]

Nothing like that happened during my testing. The only popup was about freezing. However, post your results as they still may be useful

[chrome merlin]

oh, so in my understanding you also using NCGDMW with Devilish need??..

[oblique imp]

Yeah I did various tests, but not a full playthrough

[chrome merlin]

well thats already erasing my doubt you know..

anyway thanks

[leaden basalt]

I had been meaning to do more testing with this and Ncgdm as well. I'm still going through burglary overhaul for pause control, etc

[chrome merlin]

i always like to play every elderscroll with survival mod..
and unarmed also.. morrowind skill cap hindering me to droping vivec in one hit

[hardy sentinel]

I don't know. If it doesn't work with Basic Needs then it probably won't work

[violet crest]

Running a "just beautiful morrowind" which includes NCGDMW in addition to "devilish needs (slightly modified)", dwemer nights terror etc

Not seeing the pop up problem you mentioned.

[turbid peak]

heyo, if im adding new food do i need to set anything specific for DN to register it?

[hardy sentinel]

you need to add a lua file to patches named after the esp

[turbid peak]

oh yeah i see, cool thanks

[lofty grail]

i'm the only one with effectively non working icons?
i mean, those bog brown-orange icons, effectively doesn't modify, i'm aware about effects only when i see debuffs and starts marked in red!... 🤔

stats*

[signal bramble]

Are you using 0.50?

[lofty grail]

0.49 flatpak...

if i need 0.50 for this, that means i need to upgrade my slackware to current! 🙁

[signal bramble]

Nah 0.50 breaks them if you use paused menus. You can try to replace the textures, there are a few mods for that but each icon has a lua that updates them. I’m assuming the problem would be there for you

[lofty grail]

it's unclear if these low placed fillbars are implemented or not in the released version of mod...

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/56480?tab=files

this one, with patch for Danae's Backpack added, because i use it...

[royal jolt]

I don't have that issue myself, on 0.49 installed manually at the bottom of the load order.

[lofty grail]

this can be the reason, DN is not at bottom... i will try...

[royal jolt]

I do have another issue where cooking checks for ingredients but doesn't consume them. Doesn't bother me tbh and maybe is just me

[lofty grail]

using that firepit from the mod, yes?

[royal jolt]

Oh also, this mod only worked properly for me on new games.

Yeah using the campfire

[lofty grail]

that's hard requirement, nothing to do! 🙂

you can try to use some console commands, but there's no guaranteed correct result for these, so, better start a new game, and see how it's working!...

[signal bramble]

Oh yeah, devilish needs only works on a new game

[civic cosmos]

Nah 0.50 breaks them if you use paused menus.

Did you mean "unpaused menus" here?

[signal bramble]

No, the 0.50 onUpdate change effects paused menus if a lua uses it

[civic cosmos]

Ah, thanks. My icons are not working either, but it's a new EV+ modlist and I haven't played with load order yet

[signal bramble]

Are you using 0.49?

[civic cosmos]

.50 pulled within the last two days

[signal bramble]

Ah yeah that would be why. I was told that you could do this in each of the script files that has onUpdate in them, offhand I know there are at least 4 which are the icons in scripts/BasicNeeds/showIcon

instead of function onUpdate() ...
you put

if dt == 0 then return end
...```
I haven’t tried this out myself for devilish needs but I’ve used that for other mods and it’s helped

[civic cosmos]

Whoop! Thanks for that! 🙏 I will update here if it works for me.

[civic cosmos]

Broseph, I am only seeing onUpdate right here. Just do the edit you prescribed, but there where it is defined? No instance of onUpdate in showIcon*.lua

[signal bramble]

showIcon1, 2 and 3

[civic cosmos]

What am I missing here?

[signal bramble]

Give me a few minutes

[civic cosmos]

My files have onUpdate only in player.lua. They are the latest I could DL today

[signal bramble]

ShowIcon 2 3 and 4 sorry

[civic cosmos]

Bro, these are the two instances of "onUpdate" in the whole script tree. A definition and a call, one after the other, in player.lua

I really wanted to be able to patch it up lickety-split. First, try some load ordering

[signal bramble]

I mean you can revert any changes you made and try messing with your load order, but that's just one of the changes made with 0.50 though

[civic cosmos]

I'm a bit of a boner for thinking load order would be a problem with a Lua mod, derp. No change ofc

I would try your trick on the single function onUpdate() that I found, but it has no paremeter upon which to pend logically

[signal bramble]

yeah looking at it, it's not even a real onUpdate

[civic cosmos]

local function onUpdate()
   state:update(core.getGameTime(), self.object.cell)
end
time.runRepeatedly(onUpdate, UPDATE_INTERVAL, { type = time.GameTime })

[signal bramble]

Give me a few minutes and I'll try to figure this out

[civic cosmos]

🙏

I really liked how this HUD worked for Frostwind, btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ2sC2q6TRY

I don't seem to be able to find a homepage or download for Frostwind Helper, so I figured I'd share

[signal bramble]

yeah i was thinking about adding something like that to my timehud mod with the new weather features in 0.50 but i have a few other things i'm doing first

[civic cosmos]

I guess I would rather the icons just worked, than have words up the sides that get blocked by optimized right-click windows. I was stoked to gain a handful of vertical pixels for other windows by moving my 24-hour clock below the equipped weapon instead of above, as it had been.

The part I really liked about the Frostwind Helper was how the words (or be they icons or indicators or what have you) would only fade into visibility as the associated need would increase. So you have an incentive to keep your screen clear of unsatisfied needs. No need, no indicator. Good stuff

Being colorblind and always using night mode drove me to edit the colors a bit, but I liked the approach for aesthetic and game design reasons

[signal bramble]

and yeah sorry i was thinking about the updateAll() that's called in icon, icon2, icon 3, and icon4 because those cause problems with a few other UI mods, I have no idea why the icons aren't working but i'm going to keep poking around

[civic cosmos]

I am bummed because DN was going to be a big part of this playthrough, and I'd counted it as a must-have. I just can't be having needs without knowing what they are

[civic cosmos]

I came back to propose that disabling a need in settings should also disable its icon.

[lofty grail]

looks like those icons and stuff is not working... did i need to effectively overwrite all the icons and scripts folders in DN mod's folder???
because if i install it after DN doesn't look to have any effect, and there's no new menu either in DN or in scripts for these icons... 🙁

also, icon sizes... did i need to directrly modify their config files to have bigger icons?

[royal jolt]

Yes you must override, I recommend saving backuo of original first

This might be of interest to some peple too.

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57136

[lofty grail]

when I checked this one, it said he need another icon mods to work.
already overwritten/merged those icons and Lua scripts with that one, but is added as a separate mod...
so, I need to overwrite Devilish Needs icons and scripts in order to make them work? 🤔

(no hard feelings, I have original archives, but there's nowhere said is absolutely need to overwrite... MO2 was able to assemble them without questions, looks like vfs mechanic of OpenMW doesn't yet know this...)

[lofty grail]

just finished the overwriting... let's see...

[lofty grail]

done it! 👍

[lofty grail]

... so, they're showing now, but they're not moving... intentionally played like is not installed, to see when those bars start to became smaller... but nothing yet...

I set a rate of 5, is too low for his scripts to work? 🤔
also, my default timescale is 8: it's this affecting DN scripts??? 🤔

(i want to get survival mode, but i'm not too happy to eat and drink at every in-game quarter of hours! 🙄)

[turbid peak]

i have water set to 5 with a timescale 15 and it works for me

[lofty grail]

... maybe is set too low compared with timescale, and they kick in later... 🤔

[royal jolt]

You can test by waiting/resting 24 hours.

[lofty grail]

I was thinking, but I was too eager to start a playthrough in TR...
and discovered how crafting component wasn't working at all... the books was just books, the crafting hammer just an equippable weapon, that's all, no menu, nothing.

I checked my load order, Devilish Needs was somewhere in the middle, like it was for a long while, I moved it to the last position, and it started to work. 🙄

guess is the same for those icons never updating... but it was already late, I set it, and go to sleep, irl. ☺️

I will check it again, to see if it's really fully working...

it's somehow strange how a lua mod is dependent of the loadorder... 🤔

[turbid peak]

yeah its one of the few that heavily recommended to go late in your load order

[lofty grail]

... now, for a reason or other, no innkeeper can give me food and drink! 🙄

looks like DN is finicky af! 🙄

I will tell more later, I want to advance to level 2

after that, I will check if i can cook something myself...

[lofty grail]

looks like those bars finally moved, but now i cannot find any publican able to give me food and drink! 🙁

so, i cannot get rid of those thirsty/hunger debuffs...

i got them during a really prolonged training sessions, because i wanted 3x5 for level...

[royal jolt]

You dont see a food and drink conversation topic?

[lofty grail]

vanished!

last time i used it was in TR, moar precisely, in... uhm Cirifae's (what a name) inn, after that point, somehow that option vanished

i tried to other toons, is same vanished, but i can trigger DN crafting stuff through books, normally...

i really have no feel to make another toon, but something need to be done, with those randomly vanished topics...

"Apparently the cheapest way for now is to go to a tavern and ask for a meal at 15, you get that + some drink." that one, it was here for a while, now, is gone, and i don't know why...

and that openmw.log of my adventuring in Teyn is long gone... this is why i wanted to know if i can force append to log, not delete and rewrite, because this is what is doing openmw: deletes the old openmw.log, and start a fresh one.

[lofty grail]

looks like i can fix thirsty thru sujamma/mazte/flin, things like that, but for hunger i really need to go somewhere in wilderness, craft a campfire, and hope i got enough cooking mats for a meal! :))))

[turbid peak]

You may need some fancy ingredients to cook the meals from the mod, someone on the nexus listed what's available but I ended up having to script myself the ability to roast plain rat on a stick to keep myself going. Early survival on the bitter coast can be rough 👍 I love it that way

[lofty grail]

... that darn salt, for sure... expensive and in limited quantity... i had the same issue with Ashfall... 1 gold marshmerrow, crab meat for free, some hackle-lo, or something like that, free, void salts, 100 coins! :))))))

just to have a better tasty meal! :))))

... i think i will start another toon, to check the stuff...
also... excepting that line from publicans who's vanished, looks like is working fine, i just need to find a way to feed myself! :)))))))
and to find a way to get water, because i don't like too much to be (semi)drunk! :))))

[lofty grail]

finally, the option appeared, with a new toon, and after a while... at Arille's doesn't appeared...

[royal jolt]

At Arille's, head upstairs, the lady at the bar should have the food and drinks option

[lofty grail]

... that lady is Elone, scout, and Blade fellow. ☺️

Arille is the publican, not she.

Merlord added a initial list, and a submenu in MCM to transfer merchants npc in the list of sellers of camping gear, food and water, etc...

also, after I played a while on my new redguard, I decided to switch back to my regular mage, where I wasn't able to find that option, I headed right to this lad in screenshot (Bacola Closcius, the owner of inn), and scrolled a while... and the lad got a lot of subjects...

and it was there... at "f", for "food"! 🙄

now, the crafting itself...

... Elone is not the only "fake publican"... there are more, in Vvardenfell...

she doesn't need to be placed there, is not her job...

that lad at the basement of Bacola's place, too, is not a publican, but in Ashfall, I added to the list, for the sake of credibility.

also, i'm unsure about bottle filling at publicans... they sell water only if you have an empty bottle/flask/something?
or they can sell filled bottles? 🤔

... maybe DD leave this for fans! 🤣
looks like what was harder to do was done already... now is time to extend the toy...

[lofty grail]

... somehow, is working... DN, i mean...
but somehow, crafting framework does not! 🤔

i will check later!...
also, there is really need to have some sort of cookbook: no idea what you need, requirements fire up when you set things, thanks to The Ones With Cats for multi-mark and recall! 😄

[turbid peak]

Bcom moves her out and adds an actual bar lady

[hardy sentinel]

TR lands publicans currently don't have a "food and drink" option because that would require an additional esp

some TR lands have standard publicans which will have the topic

or you can just buy food and alcohol and consume that

[lofty grail]

ok, DD, but i find that. it wasn't only Cirifae itself, but her employee underground, too...
maybe that option somehow kicked your script... 🙂

[hardy sentinel]

every NPC of the Publican class has the topic. Since TR / PT have some of their own publican classes they don't have the topic

[sand whale]

Compatible with the publicans mod?

[hardy sentinel]

probably

[turbid peak]

seems to be 👍

[turbid peak]

at least for the BCoM replacer version that im using

[sand whale]

That’s what I’ll be using too

[oblique imp]

Btw anyone playing this with 0.50.0 RC? Any issues?

[civic cosmos]

Icons not updating for me with unpaused dialogue

[oblique imp]

Only with dialogue? So if dialogue is paused, everything is fine?

[civic cosmos]

I never checked haha, will do now

My bad. That's an empty promise on my part, because DN is not in my modlist at the moment.

I haven't set up portable configs yet, or it would be easy to check

The issue is on hyacinth's radar as of the 16th

[turbid peak]

Mostly fine for me, except whenever I search for wood I wake up face first in the mud, drunk as a skunk 😂 strange interaction with alcohol mod 🤷 I just roleplay that my PC has poor impulse control 😅

[flat narwhal]

Oh I love this mod. It's the only mod I have installed lol.

That's actuslly a lie. I installed Tamriel Rebuilt yesterday as well. I was wondering what triggers the exposure for the player character regarding environments.

I'm assuming the mod just detects whatever the current weather effect or environment is active in a region or cell. But I'm not sure.

I hope it works in the different environments in Tamriel Rebuilt!

[hardy sentinel]

TR / SHOTN / Cyrodiil are all supported

[hardy sentinel]

I have little time for modding but if there are genuine issues due to 0,5, I would like to know

[hardy sentinel]

0.5 seems to work fine on my install

[turbid peak]

i dont know the details, just that a few people said they started having issues with the ui after the update to .50 i dont think it was a specific bug...

[hardy sentinel]

maybe in combination with other ui mods

but not on its own

[turbid peak]

yes, apologies 😅 thats what i meant to say, issues interacting with ui between different mods, not a specific bug in your mod afaik

[signal bramble]

there was a pretty big change to onUpdate() which is pseudo-called(?) in \player.lua but people have mentioned similar problems that other mods using onUpdate have had

the updateAll() also messes with UI mods because of layering and for a few other reasons, those were just a few things I found

[hardy sentinel]

yes, updateAll() is not ideal

just need to look at concrete alternatives

[hardy sentinel]

I think I fixed it

this means problems with better bars and other ui mods should be gone now

[hardy sentinel]

Added a separate esp for dialogue addons for TR / SHOTN / Cyrodiil publicans

this could also be used to give more traders the survival equipment

Why a separate esp? Well the second esp will be dependent on TR / SHOTN / Cyrodiil, so better make it optional

[oblique imp]

Sounds like a good update

[hardy sentinel]

Version 1.5 is out

[civic cosmos]

Icons are working for me now, thank you so much, stoked to get playing with it!

[oblique imp]

That chicken leg killed me

[civic cosmos]

Hot dogs are not lore-friendly

I like this approach because: no present need, no icon. Keeps the UI quieter and incentivizes making the icons/needs go away. My graphics are hokey for sure, but they are mine and I will use this and tweak it over time I reckon

Fewer gauges to keep an eye on is a bonus for me

If the red is way too bright, you gotta let me know, because I am colorblind that way

[oblique imp]

It's ok but default ones seem more informative. It's all subjective, though

[civic cosmos]

Default ones are also 0/25/50/75/100%, just with a bar

The bar gauges on the default icons and the icon sets for DN that I have seen are a bit deceptive because you could assume that there are more than 5 possible readings of the gauge

I have copied a bit of the style of the Frostwind Helper (HUD mod), but icons instead of text. It too displayed nothing when there were no unmet needs.

[civic cosmos]

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57545

[civic cosmos]

Better ordering

[civic cosmos]

It is a turkey leg, at least. But probably guar-be-cue

[civic cosmos]

We had to go HD (64x64 🤣)

[civic cosmos]

1.5 published: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57545

[civic cosmos]

It is definitely guarbecue, going great with beer

Exposing my sloppy croppy jalopy over here haha

[lofty grail]

it's drumstick! ☺️

[lofty grail]

did you modified the left bars, too?
i'd like them to be a bit thicker, and numbers in center...

idk why, but I think it's looking better like this, those numbers next to bars look somehow strange for me... like a bug in UI! 🤔

[civic cosmos]

I edited the font color of Better Bars, that's all

[turbid peak]

Hey I uploaded the DN recipes for Crafting Framework, recipes for the tents and cook pot. (Optional HW recipe too)

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57565

[civic cosmos]

Sleeping in the basement of the Census and Excise Office in Seyda Neen does not relieve my exhaustion. Sleeping is technically illegal there, is that why?

[oblique imp]

are you sleeping without a bed? Because in DD resting with no bed is not supposed to lower exhaustion. It only heals you.

[signal bramble]

The bed in the seyda neen census and excise office uses a different script from the normal bed script and would have to be hardcoded into the mod

[civic cosmos]

I had to use a bedroll to get the illegal message.

[signal bramble]

Yeah because that bedroll script is hardcoded into the mod

[civic cosmos]

It's an important bed. Is there any chance of a fix? Seems like one that would merit a hardcode

[oblique imp]

why is it important?

why would you even sleep there?

[civic cosmos]

It is the first bed, and I use it often when I decide to complete AFFresh

[signal bramble]

Not from me but I'm making a mod which includes that script

[civic cosmos]

It is probably the most used bed in all of Vvardenfell

[oblique imp]

there is a rentable bed in the tradehouse

just use that one

[civic cosmos]

Oh, mister high roller over here

But I am willing to do that

[oblique imp]

well, it's right there and I'm sure that it works as I used it yesterday

[civic cosmos]

I have yet to ever sleep in it, so the novelty should be amusing

Also, I love this mod and it needs tooltips over the icons for current status

[oblique imp]

it's in the attic. It's messy there 😄

and yes, the mod is very good. OMW really missed a proper needs mod. Most were outdated or limited.

[civic cosmos]

Aye sir, I ate crumbs for a long time with Basic Needs and Frostwind, which were each a godsend at the time

I also want this mod to have toolbar scaling for future-proofing and taking advantage of hi-def icons

[turbid peak]

im pretty sure its intended game design, that basement is basicly the starter home for new players to level up

[turbid peak]

isnt that BCoM?

its hard to remember whats vanilla these days..

[oblique imp]

Dunno. Definitely part of Expanded Vanilla if that's the case, though.

[oblique imp]

This is for the best. It's not good when modded content stands out too much from Vanilla.

[civic cosmos]

Might be the top criteria, as fun as it may be to drift riceburners in Balmora

We are ultimately here for the environment feel after all

[lofty grail]

in Seyda Neen?
I don't think so, you are urged to Balmora, to talk with Caius Cosades, and there's starting points for two major guilds, and House Hlaalu...

[turbid peak]

I think your speaking from the point of view of someone who has played before. Not knowing the map a player is likely to explore a bit first. It's easy to level up once wandering around seyda neen doing the few quests and killing some mud crabs. I believe this is a very common player experience

[oblique imp]

many players just take the silt strider to Balmora, though. They are advised to do that by NPCs

[turbid peak]

I don't think that stands against my point. If a player doesn't immediately do as they are told then they will need somewhere to sleep when they level up in the bitter coast. Im speaking from experience

[signal bramble]

Yeah I was going to say, I don’t think there are many other places you could level up

You even get a “tutorial” message that explains resting and waiting, which is from its unique mwscript

[civic cosmos]

Seems like the tutorial bed might be worth a hardcode, is all

Not a good look for the mod to have the first bed be broken

[turbid peak]

Oh yeah I forgot it even has a tutorial message 😅 thats the first subtle hint

[turbid peak]

It could affect sales if the yelp review score dips

[lofty grail]

true, but a first time player does like this: let's level up a bit, fight the two mudcrabs around Seyda Neen, die, cry, and either quit or decide to go to Balmora, and there Caius say he can use his bed, if he want, but to leave his stuff alone, or come to Mage or Fighters guild, and see their beds, so, three places where he can sleep happily...

that bedroll in the Census office, sincerely, I don't think someone tried to mod that, because is simply useless.
also, if he's able to beat the smugglers from that well-known cave, he got some bedrolls for free. ☺️

apropos, I wonder if there's a way to get bedrolls find randomly in the wilds! 🤔
Merlord doesn't yet tried that, because bedrolls are really early in his crafting skill tree... but it can be nice... and somehow immersive: this suggest npc's can craft things, too. ☺️

[civic cosmos]

So, the tutorial bed should not be hardcoded to work, then

[lofty grail]

as a side note, I'd add bedrolls and things like that randomly in crates and chests in smuggler caves... also, bottles filled with water or tea... the last one was already done with Ashfall...

[civic cosmos]

Survival supplies in levelled lists sounds

[lofty grail]

I think yes... that one downstairs of Census office, next to those sacks...

[lofty grail]

smugglers love warmth, too, and a tight sleep, it isn't? ☺️

[civic cosmos]

A raider of many bandit caves should not need to cook

[lofty grail]

now, I plan to try to craft a mod i want to for a really long time...

do you remember where's the entrance door to Arille's? ☺️

I see a lot of empty space under those planks, and I'd like to craft a shack there...

and sort of mini-quest related to Arille... that's not for free, but for a weekly coins...

doable only if Arille's disposition is at least 70-75, and, if you give the ring to Fargoth, his disposition is about 80-85, I don't remember exactly, but way higher than default 45...

the shack itself is doable without much fuss, but adding a mini-quest to Arille, this can be problematic...

[civic cosmos]

You should start a thread about it

[lofty grail]

... after that story with Vodunius Nuccius integrated in TR questlines, i'd first put a question in TR discord, to know if they plan to add quests to Arille, related to TR content... 🤔

[oblique imp]

Btw you know that you can buy a bedroll from Arrille... right?

[lofty grail]

with DM or Ashfall, yes, vanilla, not. ☺️

is somehow interesting: after a while, we just start to forget how a lot of mods we're using all the time are mods, not parts of base game! ☺️

[oblique imp]

DM?

[civic cosmos]

Surely that was supposed to be DN

[oblique imp]

Heh. That's the mod thread. Obv we are not talking about Vanilla

[lofty grail]

... no icons at all... did i missed something, or is incon installation procedure changed for the last version of DN?

on the other hand, is working: Hrisskar can give me the books, ori can buy them from Arille, Arille got stuff in inventory, everything here, just no icon.
did i need to start a new toon for them to appear? 🙂

[civic cosmos]

You might experiment with the last two values in script options to see if you can get the icons to appear

[lofty grail]

... i'm on 0.50RC1 now... did the UI interface is the same as 0.49? 🤔

anyway, it's 4 in the morning... last time on 0.49 they started to appear after a new playthrough: I will make a rubbish toon just to see if they're appearing on screen, because Better Bars doesn't work either! 🙄

i will check thoroughly in the evening...

[civic cosmos]

🫡

[civic cosmos]

Judging from Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, it would seem that we are missing a couple of things, whatever tf homeostatis is, or how it would be met.

First they came for the homeostasis, and I had no idea wtf so whatever. But when they came for the sexing and pooping, I took up arms!

So...sex we'll just rule out for Nexus reasons

I think shelter should be on there

It is noted that this is no more accurate than the food pyramid, just hoping to spark ideas and discussion

[civic cosmos]

Okay, it is actually way more accurate than the food pyramid, which was only ever a multi-industry lobby scam

Also, ChapStick is a scam, and has no place in a survival mod

[turbid peak]

Lol unless I'm mistaken homeostasis is basically just hot/cold, I think self esteem is the only thing we don't have a mod for 🤔 I guess thats where roleplay comes in..

[oblique imp]

-100% admire chance when talking to NPCs of opposite sex because of low self-esteem

[turbid peak]

Remove all dialogue options until the next time you gain fame

[civic cosmos]

I wonder if this mod will play well with DN: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57579

[civic cosmos]

SimpMod

Oops, wrong channel https://discord.com/channels/260439894298460160/1408674801131847702

[civic cosmos]

"Shelter" being one of the basic needs not really represented as of yet

Kinda

[civic cosmos]

(Nevermind that it is totally possible to keep a fire going in the rain IRL, haha)

I'm also eyeballing this one to use with DN: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53724

(It's mostly the teleport-to-camp amulet that is drawing me, I'll admit.)

[oblique imp]

I think that DN already adds tents and bedrolls

[civic cosmos]

Yeah, it does (carried over from Basic Needs, which it incorporates). I like the teleport amulet and the more complete campset offered by that mod I'm eyeballing

[lofty grail]

irl, you can use a fire during rain if you shelter it, but funnily enough, you cannot lay a shelter over a campfire in DN, nor Ashfall.

is possible in Valheim, but I have no idea how it's made.

[civic cosmos]

IRL a big enough fire will withstand direct pouring rain

[oblique imp]

There are no such fires in Morrowind, though. We only have campfires, torches and such. Nothing big.

[civic cosmos]

Well, I personally have kept many a campfire going in the rain. Oregon

Not a downpour, of course

[lofty grail]

some weeks ago, I had a problem with "food and drink" line in publican's talk menu...

now, looks like it's somehow a small mistake in UI color scheme: already used topics use a grey color very close of background color...

it's a way to make that particular topic to be always a different color? 🤔

I was thinking to bright green... that topic, when it's available, to be that color, all the time...

[civic cosmos]

You can change the topic colors in openmw.cfg

[lofty grail]

is doable per class/per topic? 🤔

anyway, I think I will look in lua stuff, I need to...

because DN icons behave like in old version: appear, but doesn't work.
I don't added your icons again, because if they're not updating, it's useless.

also, for a strange reason, better bars mod doesn't work at all. 🙄

[civic cosmos]

appear, but doesn't work.
I was having this before, but 1.5 fixed it. I also had bad artifacts in Better Bars, but that also was fixed in 1.5 for me

[lofty grail]

I leave DN settings as default, and I run around, things, this time even if icons appear in their place, they're not change at all. 🙄

vanilla icons.

just those debuff ones "hey, you have reduced magicka because you're thirsty".
those work.
but the big icons, nope. no update.

I think I missed to install something... did they're dependent by some UI addon?

[civic cosmos]

Devilish Needs icons are only dependent on the showIcon?.lua scripts

[lofty grail]

there's some lines from myself here, about that exact issue... scroll up around 18 September posts...
looks like I had need to use a mod adding scripts and icons, but those icons wasn't working for me, so, I pasted over another set of icons, but without their scripts, started a new toon, and they started to work.
Better Bars was working from the very start, so, I think it's about my current load order. 🤔

another cig, and I will check...
if i will solve that, I will put some relevant lines about...

... I think i know what is the problem, I will check this first: OpenMW want to be pointed to an .esp and/or . omwaddon file, and I think I forget to made that, I pointed only to the Better Bars folder. 🤔

[hardy sentinel]

probably not

[lofty grail]

finally! 🙄

you need to say they're NOT visible normally, and start to be seen when you start to be tired, hungry, etc...

this means they was working from the first time, but i wasn't aware about that.
also, i have default timescale 9, so, i take a really long time to be seen... now i leave the default 30, for test... and they started to appear, after a while...

and about Better Bars... i... just forget to add the mod! :blushy-blushy:

[hardy sentinel]

You aren't using my icons. You are using a separate icon mod for Devilish Needs that changes the icons to not appear when there's no "need".

you need to read mod descriptions 😄

[turbid peak]

it seems only a quarter of each icon is showing 🤔

[lofty grail]

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57545

those ones! 😄

[oblique imp]

what do you see on the left?

[lofty grail]

by default, when you are ok, no one of those are shown. when you start to be cold, hungry, thirsty, tired, etc, they start to gradually appear...

[oblique imp]

exactly

[lofty grail]

i leaved timescale to default 30, that's not my normal playstyle... i use timescale 8, and i set tiredness, coldness, hungry factor bit bigger, because i'm not too happy to eat and sleep 20/24 in-game days!...

so, first time i installed DN with those icons already installed, they wasn't appeared at all... because my DN settings, but i wasn't aware...
with default values, doesn't take too long until they appear...

[civic cosmos]

I made the same mistake at first 😊

[lofty grail]

@turbid peak i'm not a fan of survival mods because they're set to be, effectively, annoying hard, without any chance to change these settings.
I don't know if Frostfall was the same, but Ashfall was the first... no, second one with the possibility to set his sliders like you wanted.

I remember a Skyrim LE survival mod who was almost the same, you can set a lot of things, but Skyrim SE and AE again use a "hardcoded" one, and any and all alternative survival mods doesn't work until you effectively disable it.

DN follow Ashfall policy, leaving user to set his own environment stuff, so, I like it.
and, like I already said, i'm not a fan of survival mods in any game: most of them make those games unuseful hard, and you cannot do anything than deactivating/uninstalling them. 🙄

[turbid peak]

i agree i set mine to be slow too, i like to have the role play of needs but not when its just annoying all the time but i was only trying to tell you that the icons on your screenshot were cut off. like only one quarte of image is showing

[turbid peak]

do you see?

[lofty grail]

I think it's some difference between those .lua scripts, then... 🤔

I don't yet copied, too, at least I know they're work...
(I don't saved anything about that toon, just F5, to not have unpleasant surprises, so I can start again to check...)

[turbid peak]

iv uploaded the CC recipes for this on my nexus page btw. it works nicely with DN, just a bit more variety

[signal bramble]

Are all the mwscripts and whatnot the same ? Like DN works with that mod?

[turbid peak]

actually no, i thought it was. hmm

it seems like its not letting me sleep, but my game has just gotten a bit bugged out, im testing too many new mods

yeah im not getting any rest from it

[oblique imp]

A very small random idea. Currently consuming hackle-lo lowers exhaustion. It would be cool if it had some side effects like increased thirst and hunger so it's not a "free" effect but more like a trade-off.

[civic cosmos]

Devilish Needs fans should know that I updated my icons and it's an icon pack now: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57545

[turbid peak]

I just uploaded a patch for DN that allows to "roast" meat-on-a-stick over the fire. its nothing fancy but if anyone's interested here it is https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/57495

@hardy sentinel thanks for having the open perms, I've learned a lot from digging around in your code

[hardy sentinel]

I'm more of a "just make it work somehow" instead of a "make it work perfectly" kind of guy 😄

[turbid peak]

i appreciate that. perfection is nice but who's got that kind of time haha

[hardy sentinel]

Thanks for the patch. Sun's Dusk is interesting

[hardy sentinel]

This looks quite nice!

The roast meat option makes a lot of sense

I could consider just merging it in

[turbid peak]

oh cool! thanks yeah that would be really cool, feel free to do so👍

[hardy sentinel]

Thanks for your work. It may be worthwhile to have distinct roasted meat meshes

like a roasted fish would look different

a roasted fish option and a generic roasted meat option would maybe suffice

just to at least distinguish between these two

[turbid peak]

yeah totally. i plan on making a range of them, at least with fish, but i got caught up on the mesh and i just wanted to get it out there, haha the timing with SD coming out was unfortunate

ill hopefully have the fish mesh at least soon now that ive got the hang of it

[hardy sentinel]

I see that you are using the omwaddon format. That may make it trickier to merge in

maybe it can just be renamed to esp and still work

[turbid peak]

oh yeah, im not sure but i think it should work with just a rename.

[hardy sentinel]

littering is not okay, not even in virtual places

[turbid peak]

pelagiad's gone to the dogs these days

[hardy sentinel]

I too would be fed up living there with every modder sending a plague your way

Overall Sun's Dusk approach to cooking is probably better

The crafting menu makes sense there. So, I'm still a little bit hesitant to work on the old approach

DN's cooking is quite option heavy

If Sun's Dusk keeps up the pace with temperature, there may be a good reason to switch to it completely

[oblique imp]

I'm still using DN because it's comprehensive

When SD reaches feature parity or gets close enough, switching over will be a good option, I think

Nothing bad with having 2 mods doing similar things, though

[hardy sentinel]

I wouldn't mind someone else taking over. I'd rather focus on other projects to be honest

DN works well enough for my playthrough

[turbid peak]

yeah i imagine its been burdensome to maintain. now you can do a Thanos and go to be a simple Goatherdwind farmer 😅
nah DN really is brilliant is its own way though and it was much needed in the openmw community

[hardy sentinel]

Mage stuff, Melodies and Moonlight, Economy ideas, Less hostile Morrowind are what comes to my mind currently

For example, I think that fights should be rare, risky and memorable

[oblique imp]

DN is functional and comprehensive and this is exactly what OMW needed. Yes, it's not Ashfall, but it works if you need a mod for primary needs and temperature/survival. OMW was lacking when it came to such mods

[hardy sentinel]

It's a bit weird that my character kills hundreds of people in a playthrough

[oblique imp]

What are your economy ideas?

[hardy sentinel]

Everything is expensive and you need to "work" to sustain yourself. Being a low level member of a faction requires you to pay guild dues. High level faction members get paid by the faction.

[oblique imp]

The last part will make the game easier by mid/late-game and it's the last thing the game needs IMO.

Other ideas are interesting

But we need more expenses for high lvl players

[hardy sentinel]

It's just so weird that everyone attacks you when you are just travelling somewhere

At least you should be warned to stay away

[oblique imp]

? It's mostly creatures. Bandits, smugglers etc. are in caves

[hardy sentinel]

Ashlanders attack on sight. Way too many bandits. Cultists attack you too

Morrowind shouldn't be a hack'n slash. For me it's about interesting quests

[oblique imp]

Rogue ashlanders who are bandits... pretty much. There are barely any bandits who attack you on sight on the roads in southern and western parts of Vvardenfell.

[hardy sentinel]

The easiest way to resolve a conflict is by killing the opponent. I think this solution is overrepresented in Morrowind due to time constraints

[oblique imp]

If you don't enter smugglers' caves and approach ruins with cultists, you will mostly fight creatures, though.

[turbid peak]

more of that kind of thing would be great. there's a mod called scripted bandits or smt that supposedly adds more bandit encounters where your offered the choice of combat or paying them. also in Mercy occaisionally if they give up its actually possible to talk to them/befriend them. i would love to see more gameplay in that way, adding depth to the bandits

[oblique imp]

Sure. It's good to have alternatives

[hardy sentinel]

How come that every cave-dweller is hostile. Can't we have decent people living in caves.

Good people live in towns and the murderers live in caves I guess

In Gothic you have like three caves, which is okay. In Morrowind you have like 50 of these

[turbid peak]

i want goblin town...

[oblique imp]

I would love the opportunity to continue playing after "death" in some cases. Robbing or ransoming the player. Leaving the player to death while their barely survives.

[hardy sentinel]

In Gothic 2 they are actually hidden, which is a nice touch. You need to actively try to find them instead of stumbling on them everywhere

[soft jacinth]

Big fan of optional hostility, feel like black and white bad good is a big crutch games use x) (Sure deadrea will defend their ruins of whatever, but people are generally not that murder happy)

[hardy sentinel]

I could create a spell that turns your opponent into a random animal. It's just the Wabbajack mod without the wabbajack

[oblique imp]

If you enter smugglers' cave, they won't react nicely. Asking you to stay away like in Mercy would be the most you could expect. Cultists would probably not even ask.

[oblique imp]

Sounds like Wabbajack

[hardy sentinel]

excactly

still better than killing people

it just bugs me that in an ordinary playthrough the player kills so many people. Self defence or not

[oblique imp]

You can probably tweak surrender values in Mercy

But the most efficient way of avoiding violence is sneaking or using Calm spells

It can be done most of the time.

[hardy sentinel]

Many faction quests are about killing people

even in the Mages Guild where I wouldn't expect it

They want you to kill necromancers for example. And Ranis wants you to kill people that don't pay guild dues

[oblique imp]

Ha ha, funnily enough, you can avoid it

[hardy sentinel]

on the Mainland they want you to kill Telvanni spies

still, why is everyone so murder happy

it ruins the immersion

killing is a last resort

[oblique imp]

Anyway, if you implemented sth like this, it could be a great feature

[hardy sentinel]

No, I'm not interested in that.

[oblique imp]

Ah, a pity

[soft jacinth]

Ok, Morag tong isn't seen as as evil as dark brotherhood (from what i gather), but every faction being murder happy lessens these things, who cares about the mysterious killings in Vivec when you kill so many people in Vivec

[hardy sentinel]

if you reduce the number of fights in total, the fights themselves become more memorable too

Imagine if you had to genuinely prepare for fights such as hiring mercenaries

If you are outnumbered 3 to 1, your chances of winning should be low.

[oblique imp]

Indeed. It's more about difficulty than what you are describing, though. In my current playthrough I try to avoiding fighting more than 1 enemy at the same time because with the settings I use I'm a bit of a glass cannon so unless they are trash mobs, it can be pretty dangerous...

you won't achieve what you want without handling the difficulty curve somewhat

in Vanilla Morrowind you get strong rather fast

early game is fine

also, keep in mind that with no penalty for dying (you just reload and keep going), many players will simply try to brute force their way through the game

[hardy sentinel]

That's something I'm okay with

You just ignore the failed attempts as non-canon 😄

[oblique imp]

if you approach the game with sth like a permadeath house rule or a mod, you will quickly notice that it changes the whole approach (although it doesn't change the difficulty curve on its own ofc)

[hardy sentinel]

Yes, but Morrowind can sometimes be unfair and then it's better to have a reload

[oblique imp]

I play with death counter on with NCGD and in my current playthrough I have 82 deaths so I daresay it's challenging enough 😅

[hardy sentinel]

Morrowind is about politics, magic experiments, stealing and exploring.

[oblique imp]

I don't steal with some of my characters and not every character uses magic. But yeah, combat is definitely not the main element I play the game for.

I def need to do a monk/pilgrim pacifist playthrough, avoiding human/mer deaths when it's possible

[hardy sentinel]

Most Redoran and Imperial Legion quests are murder quests

just phrased more nicely

also fighers guild but that's expected due them being mercenaries

shouldn't the imperial legion arrest people. I guess that was too difficult to implement. It would just be an escort to prison quest

[oblique imp]

when somebody is not a traitor sentenced to death, anyway, it would be cool to get the arrest option after intimidating that person or beating them to submission

it would probably be easier to do than one might expect because the practical difference wouldn't be that big if you simply disabled NPC post-arrest

[hardy sentinel]

It would be nice if a "useless" character who doesn't know magic nor combat could still complete most quests

Currently only possible if you hire mercenaries

[oblique imp]

or if you focus on sneaking/stealing

[hardy sentinel]

A merchant joining Hlaalu shouldn't be asked to kill people

he's a merchant, good at talking / manipulating and perhaps stealing

A restoration mage shouldn't really be tasked to kill people either in the mages guild

[oblique imp]

actually, I'm playing Hlaalu now

plenty of quests that can be done without killing

[hardy sentinel]

Killing people is more of a fighters guild / legion / Telvanni thing

[oblique imp]

when doing Hlaalu or TG quests, I often play hours and hours without any combat

[hardy sentinel]

yes, and that's how it should be

some factions should genuinely solve problems without killing at all

worst case, self defence

but that's usually not the case here

[ruby vortex]

What about looting caves and other loot places like daedric or dwemer ?? Its not immersive to raid these places and destroy evil ?

[hardy sentinel]

Evil is subjective. Is necromancy inherently evil? Are vampires who just want their peace in an ancient ruin evil? It's not so black and white.

Going places with the intent of killing people is definitely immoral

It's like saying "It's okay to kill criminals"

[ruby vortex]

Interesting approach, ai packages are workable but it would probably conflict with mercy cao

[ruby vortex]

Permadeath can actually get you sweating like I had, surviving fights on 10-20% hp really can get you excited and stressed the same time

Totally different gameplay

I actually avoided dwemer and daedric

[oblique imp]

Oh yeah, definitely. It's like a different game.

[ruby vortex]

And only tried to fight some caves

When you get hit with a 2h axe for 70% hp then you must fuckin run 😄

Now I got quickselect mod and will attempt another playthroughs on hardcore since I play on gamepad only

[ruby vortex]

With vampries you could actually have some „peaceful” warning in some of their lairs

[oblique imp]

Btw for some factions killing cultists can even be considered a duty. Definitely not immoral by their standards. Also, it's expressly stated in-game that notorious outlaws have no rights so nobody really cares if smugglers or necromancers die.

It's for the player to choose a RP approach. Some of my characters avoid looting tombs, for example

Doesn't fit them

[hardy sentinel]

It's somewhat expected of the player to like murder quests

Kill this dude. "How about you find someone else for this?"

No thanks

[oblique imp]

I definitely refuse or ignore some quests. It's not that there is not enough content in-game, lol

[hardy sentinel]

You would expect some factions to be murder happy but not most of them

[ruby vortex]

Exactly except any main game quests you dont have to accept anything

[oblique imp]

MQ is optional

My current character ignored it completely

[ruby vortex]

Morrowind is dark racist and unfriendly place

[hardy sentinel]

A restoration mage shouldn't have to go out and attempt to kill necromancers

[ruby vortex]

True but I mean about the killings

To actually complete the game you must do some

[oblique imp]

There are few in MQ btw

[ruby vortex]

Still 😄

[oblique imp]

You can avoid most of it

[ruby vortex]

But I get your point ofc

[oblique imp]

In fact, if you decide to go the backpath route, I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible to avoid killing NPCs entirely

Just creatures

[hardy sentinel]

Maybe the option to decline quests would be good

[oblique imp]

standard MQ has some situations that require it, e.g..honor duel with Venim

[oblique imp]

It's often there for misc ones

But yeah, skipping some faction quests and dealing with consequences would be cool

[turbid peak]

Fargoth says..

[oblique imp]

Hello

[hardy sentinel]

I gave Fargoth vampirism with Vampire Embrace once. Fun times

Umbra as well

[oblique imp]

Btw even in unmodded vanilla some faction quests can be ignored or failed and you may still progress. With TR probably even easier as there are so many quests

[hardy sentinel]

yes, although it may lock you out of subsequent quests

Would be better to have an option to say "no" to that one and accept the next

Maybe not in the Imperial Legion but the Mages Guild should have some independent thinkers

[oblique imp]

BTW when I was a kid I once tried to do everything with pure gameplay mindset. Every faction, every quest, stealing and murder and whatever. I will never repeat that again. Way over that stuff. RP is more interesting and more fun than playing with "maximizing content" mindset. I grew up

[hardy sentinel]

Roleplaying is best. Nobody holds your hand.

It's up to you to loot the tombs or not

[turbid peak]

Yeah it's a great way to ruin the experience. Optimize the fun right out of the game.

[oblique imp]

I know people who are so prone to FOMO that they will do every quest with their character, no matter how stupid it is in their case

[turbid peak]

If you try to actually justify to yourself in real life to go into a cave full of people to fight and loot them it's almost impossible. It would be insane

[ruby vortex]

After waiting for example 2 weeks so that other adventurer completes the quest and then you can move on. There are already journal entries stating that „I have refused to take the job” etc

[hardy sentinel]

yes, that would be good

[turbid peak]

A mod where a rival nerevarine takes all the jobs you miss. If you fail too many, no one will accept you. Or better yet, you play as the companion of the nerevarine as they go through the main quest, you have to equip and maintain their armor, clear up any diplomatic.. misunderstandings and write a ballad about their exploits

Maybe that should go in "dumb mod ideas" haha

[soft jacinth]

Turn Morrowind into Pathologic?

[oblique imp]

after becoming the Nerevarine candidate and dying, the player respawns in the Cavern of the Incarnate and stays there for the rest of the game as a Failed Incarnate.

[golden glade]

fast forward to when a nerevarine npc walks up and you have to explain how you died and hand over your entire inventory sans what you have equipped. if it was too much, the npc would be rooted to the spot for eternity instead of walking out of there and dagoth ur wins.

[oblique imp]

we may not believe this but it's actually the canonical ending

[hardy sentinel]

Imagine Azura losing her patience and striking you down to be reincarnated

[slate saddle]

The Julan companion mod is like sort of that with the obvious plot twist lol

[slate saddle]

Was replying to this

[turbid peak]

Ah right that explains a lot. I haven't played with that one but I've heard a lot about it for how many mods it needs compatibility patches for haha

[slate saddle]

He comments on like everything and has sometimes like tangible interactions with world and his personal quests involves places so that’s why patches are so needed LOL.

I say sort of it’s not to that level but it’s definitely an element of his character development. I can talk a lot about Julan.

You can train him and give him food and he comments on the food you give him. I suppose someone could do a patch (with the OG authors blessing) so he comments and accepts new foods from DN or suns dusk for example

[wise rivet]

When I try to fill some water at the kegstand, nothing happens. I have a flask and i drag it onto my character and the water bar is still low. And yes I paid the barkeep

[civic cosmos]

You added DN to Total Overhaul, is that right?

[oblique imp]

Try to activate the kegstand.

[hardy sentinel]

You need to talk to the publican first

"fill up water"

then you can go to the kegstand

alternatively ask the topic again and the publican will do it for you

[oblique imp]

Rly? Didn't know that.

[hardy sentinel]

Not all kegstands are accessible, so this is a useful way of addressing this. It's also convenient.

I think it's clever.

[oblique imp]

Yeah, nice idea

[wise rivet]

Yeah I’ve done that

Nothing happens

[hardy sentinel]

let's be specific

you talked to the publican and clicked on the topic "fill up flasks" right?

[wise rivet]

Yes

Paid ten gold

Walked over to keg stand

Pressed activity

Fade to black for a sec

[hardy sentinel]

and you went to a kegstand with the id of "detd_ ... kegstand

hmm

sounds like it's correct

but it didn't fill up your flasks apparently

[wise rivet]

Would the flasks satill be called “flask” or would it be filled flask

[hardy sentinel]

I think there's a name change to flask (water)

[hardy sentinel]

is the publican in TR / PT

or is this on the island?

[wise rivet]

On balmora

[hardy sentinel]

Filling up at the campfire still works?

I haven't had this bug happen to me. I don't know what could have caused this

perhaps there's an error message in the log

F10

Have you tried other flasks? Perhaps you picked some obscure flasks that aren't supported

[oblique imp]

I use various bottles and they work

[hardy sentinel]

yes, could be a mod conflict

maybe if you combined with sun's dusk there could be a weird interaction

[signal bramble]

I didn't test refilling bottles from the innkeepers between the two but you can disable every kind of refills from sun's dusk entirely (swimming, wells, spawns, etc)

[wise rivet]

I am playing on TO

total overhaul

[fossil willow]

It's probably clear in the settings but sometimes im a bit slow so I ask just in case, if i set my thirst rate to 30, my thirst will increase 30 points per real world hour of gameplay right? Not in-game time, which would be like 2 minutes in real life.

[hardy sentinel]

yes, that's correct

30 points per in game hour

tweak it in the settings until it feels right to you

[fossil willow]

great, thanks!

but for example, if I use rest, my thirst will also increase 30 points by resting 1 hour no?

[hardy sentinel]

yes, resting for one hour advances the in game hour by 1

[wise rivet]

Eating and drinking doesnt raise my bars at all

what do I do?

[turbid peak]

did you start a new game?

[wise rivet]

No💔 I don’t want to waste that 6 hours

[hardy sentinel]

This mod requires a fresh save as stated on the modpage

Not following this instruction leads to your problem

[flat narwhal]

What a grand and intoxicating innocence.

[wise rivet]

I installed the thing like a year ago 💔

It wasn’t stated on there before

[hardy sentinel]

I think it has always been on the modpage. I explicitly mentioned it in the comments in May on the day of the release.

It's alright. Feel free to you use Sun's Dusk midplaythrough or give Devilish Needs a try on your next one.

[oblique imp]

I didn't find a thread for Peaceful Wildlife, so I will post it here. @hardy sentinel I don't think that Rogue nix-hound is covered by the mod. I also think that "baby" variants of creatures (whelp etc.) are not covered, either.

I also have a separate suggestion. Maybe make the script exterior-only? Animals in interiors are rare but if they are there, then it's either their lair or they are used used by bandits, smugglers etc. as protectors. They would be aggressive.

[hardy sentinel]

or pets

Igor Levchenko often paints Nix Hounds as pets and I like that idea

[ruby vortex]

It for sure is a thing, I remember one of the early game caves having a nixhound and bandits which were not aggressive towards each other but both being aggresive vs player which pretty much hold the „pet” thesis

[hardy sentinel]

I have little time for modding atm

[turbid peak]

hi im getting this spamming my error log

[00:05:09.234 E] L@0x1[scripts/detd_pc_sheatheweapon.lua] onUpdate failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/detd_pc_sheatheweapon.lua"]:10: attempt to index a nil value
[00:05:09.234 E] stack traceback:
[00:05:09.234 E] [string "scripts/detd_pc_sheatheweapon.lua"]:10: in function <[string "scripts/detd_pc_sheatheweapon.lua"]:8>
[00:05:09.234 E] [C]: in ?
i just updated to the latest version

[hardy sentinel]

ffs

yep

I added a suggestion by a user and only checked whether there is function, didn't check the log

[hardy sentinel]

thanks, fixed in a few min

when the npc holds no weapon -> nil, no nil check = spam