Fresh Loot

[delicate nymph]

I already have it😉 infact I have the whole catalogue

[burnt cape]

Harder Faster Stronger as well?

[rustic estuary]

it doesn't, but those early encountered are not priviledged, they weight as any other one

[peak berry]

hmm

[rustic estuary]

it's just an average

[peak berry]

maybe there should be a devaluation of older encounters

[delicate nymph]

I have everything mym released, I'm convincing my friends group to use omw because of these mods

[peak berry]

like oldAverage *0.95 + newValue*0.05

idk, terrible formula but you get the idea

[burnt cape]

There are thousands of NPCs in the game. Literally. Even more with mods. Averages are fine.

[peak berry]

if you've slain 9000 enemies in early game, leveled up 50 times with trainers or so, and slain another 1000 enemies, your rating will still be lvl 5 or so

[rustic estuary]

I mean, if you first encounter many low level actors, the stat will add many ratios like (300 gold for actor level 5), then you'll encounter stringer actors and it may record stats like (1500 gold for actor level 20), which in this case would not change the stat at all

[peak berry]

i know i'm pointing out edge cases

[rustic estuary]

the rating does not depend on who you kill, but who openmw load in the cell you visit

[peak berry]

isn't that almost the same?

[rustic estuary]

maybe, if you kill everyone you see 😄

[burnt cape]

How many NPCs do you kill in Balmora in a typical playthrough?

[peak berry]

if you play 50 hours at low level before you level up because you suddenly got rich?

not too unreasonable

i'm just saying maybe a weighted average might be better

[rustic estuary]

my stat is based on an very approx. hypothesis: actors' wealth grow linearly with their level. It's not true, but enough for evaluating the loot quality of rare isolated containers

[rustic estuary]

it's weighted. But I think I failed to explain it properly 😅

[peak berry]

ohhh okay 🙂

thats cool

i wish people were discussing quickloot, floating heathbars or better bars as much as this mod

it's like i spend all my time and nobody gives a fuck

[delicate nymph]

I use all of your mods, I didn't realize you were the author, in that case thanks! Especially for quickloot

[peak berry]

tbh i didn't check what all those messages were about

but at least you get pinged every day

thats probably very encouraging

[rustic estuary]

lets try a simple example:

• you create a new char
• you spawn in a cell with 2 actors level 2 and 4 whose inventories total value respectively are 200 and 400 gold
• FL computes the ratio wealth/level: average of (200/2, 400/4) = 100
• then you teleport to a Sixth House base, with 2 actors level 15 and 20, whose wealth are 1500 and 2000
• FL computes: average of (200/2, 400/4, 1500/15, 2000/20) = 100
• the 2 last actors did not change what FL learned: actors' wealth is their level * 100

[burnt cape]

Meanwhile @mym trying to balance work, home life and modding: 🙀 😱 🤯 😅

[peak berry]

meanwhile pwn having no life, work or anything and creeping on with 11€ per month 😄

[peak berry]

this can be affected by price balance mods as it sounds

the logarithmic price scaling is obviously an issue in morrowind

[rustic estuary]

you're doing a great job! I have to admit that I'm not very chatty, and don't have much time generally...

[peak berry]

which i hope many people have fixed with mods

[rustic estuary]

true

if you have an easy and better approach, I'm all ears 🙂

[peak berry]

i'd assume there are a limited amount of materials of armors and weapons that exist

so you could categorize them into their bas materials

leather, chitin, ebony, daedric

i assume those keywords are usually present in the id of the item

[rustic estuary]

why the need of a categorization?

[peak berry]

except for enchanted stuff

[rustic estuary]

FL don't consider item quality

[peak berry]

that categorization would eliminate the dependency on the price

[rustic estuary]

hmm

[peak berry]

an item with daedric in the id would be evaluated high regardless if its worh 200000 or just 5000

which is the whole purpose of price balancing mods

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/45529

[rustic estuary]

I get it. But I wanted to handle scenarios like an isolated container with a chitin dagger and lots of jewels. In that case I'd like the chitin dagger to get good modifiers

[rustic estuary]

I use that one, I like it

[peak berry]

yeah it's almost as good as the one i made for tes3mp 😄

[burnt cape]

2018 mod... probably way outdated with all the TR and OAAB stuff

[peak berry]

mmmmh

[rustic estuary]

it doesn't cover TR...

[burnt cape]

Then it eliminates half the stuff

[rustic estuary]

there has been equivalent mods for TR, but always quickly outdated

[burnt cape]

Yeah

[rustic estuary]

I had a plan to automatically analyse multiple mods, and rescale all prices

and generate a patch addon

[burnt cape]

Modlists for OpenMW don't have any massive price balance mod ATM

[peak berry]

i guess the lack of a price balancing addon for TR makes this an issue

[burnt cape]

Glass, Ebony, Daedric are all crazy expensive with Expanded Vanilla

[peak berry]

wouldn't be hard to make one

[rustic estuary]

I suppose the TR team aligned their prices to Morrowind. Maybe we should not fix the prices, but rather improve the trading mechanics

[peak berry]

wdym

[burnt cape]

That being said, some of that stuff should be crazy expensive. Probably not as much as in Vanilla as Vanilla prices are theoretical

[peak berry]

stuff would only be able to be sold for 50% of the value, but that doesnt fix anything

[plush jackal]

I do think it might be possible to create some sort of automated patch.

Make it work via item ids and models/textures.

Honestly I really wish we had one big mod that just added tags to PTR stuff.

Could probably automate most of it.

[rustic estuary]

It is possible to rescale prices, but quite tricky to preserve balance

[peak berry]

basing your calculations on the prices could result in flawed results though

thats why i suggested the keywords thing

[plush jackal]

For example categorize all locations in the world for music mods.

[rustic estuary]

keywords could work, but partially, we'd have many edge cases

[peak berry]

or a database with the original values that you ship with your mod

[plush jackal]

I suggested that to PTR...

People got mad at me :/

[rustic estuary]

bed time for me, thx guys for the talk

[peak berry]

good night

[plush jackal]

Ideally you would have a mix of automation and manual tuning.

A lot of PTR stuff could prob be automated though, like readable signposts and music mod support.

Just being able to correctly classify if something is a deadric item would make supporting PTR updates a lot easier.

[burnt cape]

Why? It seems like a reasonable proposal. Most OpenMW players play with mods, I guess

[plush jackal]

They don't want to manage mod support other than the few mods they like ig.

[magic fjord]

better then playing vanilla and more fun

[plush jackal]

Also I mentioned skyrim map icon (name of the mod that adds map icons) support and it seems the word skyrim triggered some purists...

[peak berry]

there will always be fans who dislike every change

[burnt cape]

I guess the question is whether it's too much work or not

[plush jackal]

I feel like most of it can be automated.

It would be work but if we could just get one single database that is easy to update...

Then it would not be so bad.

[burnt cape]

If it's stuff like using ids or keywords then it's about organisation, I guess

[plush jackal]

Just one single database mod others can hook into to get some generic data about PTR stuff.

[burnt cape]

Well TR Data and OAAB became sort of mandatory

[plush jackal]

ALso I guess I come off as an "ideas guy" which tbh is fair.

[plush jackal]

Yeah if we could get proper extra data for these resources mod support would be significantly easier.

It sucks how each mod needs to add manual support for them.

Especially when a lot of it is similar.

And then these mods are like 3 years old and outdated.

[burnt cape]

Almost every major mod needs to consider TR Data and OAAB somehow

[peak berry]

maybe some of it could be mitigated with access to the original prices before other mods changed it?

[plush jackal]

Yup, but every major mod is not going to be updated forever.

[burnt cape]

The Price Balance mod is a good example. I mean, it's useless to me with no TR/OAAB support, for example.

I don't know whether it's possible to change item prices dynamically in OpenMW, but IMO any proper economy scaler would need some sort of dynamic component to cover stuff from other mods.

Otherwise there will always be huge inconsistencies

[plush jackal]

yup...

[peak berry]

it would be fixed when omwscript mods had access to prices, but then you still wouldnt know if you should base your calculations on the base prices or the adjusted ones

[plush jackal]

I wonder if AI/Machine Learning could help a bit?

[plush jackal]

wdym by adjusted ones?

[peak berry]

thus both should be visible to the other mod

[burnt cape]

Look at the Expanded Vanilla modlist. All these new quests, equipment etc.

[plush jackal]

I avoid the large openmw modlists because of all the inconsistencies :/

[peak berry]

like TR adding items with the vanilla price scaling, vs a dynamic scaling mod reducing it logarythmically

[burnt cape]

There aren't many unless you use some sort of overhaul

[peak berry]

idk, some of this is based on concepts that dont exist yet

[plush jackal]

I don't understand why this is a problem.

[peak berry]

if for example the mod ranks a 5000$ item as mid-game, but it's actually late-late game because it has been reduced by a price balance mod, that messes up the evaluation

[plush jackal]

ooh.

Well... TD follows vanilla scaling so it might be fine.

Depends on if it follows that scaling for non Morrowind stuff tho.

[burnt cape]

The way I imagine the rescaler to work would be to use modified Vanilla items as base for scaling and then change the price of every other item not covered by these changes. Therefore, Vanilla items would not be changed, but everything else would be. This is the first option. Another one is to dynamically adjust the price of everything. Vanilla, modded, everything is treated the same way. Rescaler would make expensive items cheaper according to its formulas.

So every item - vanilla or modded - with 60k base price would have the value lowered to 10k, for example.

[peak berry]

u mean it would scan all the database?

[burnt cape]

Yes

[peak berry]

and adjust it relatively

[burnt cape]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-infinity-war-everything-avengers-gif-14066494

[peak berry]

that only works if the price balance mod affects everything, which doesnt work yet

[plush jackal]

That also suffers from making items too samey.

[peak berry]

i'd probably be the first to make a universal price balance mod

[plush jackal]

Also some ultra rare items might be intentionally insanely expensive.

[burnt cape]

No, I go even further. You don't even need a price balance mod in this caze. You use the rescaler only

[plush jackal]

I assume they mean an automation tool.

That generates an esp.

[burnt cape]

... or not

Change it all

In-game

[peak berry]

generating esps requires the author to take content mods into consideration

same issue as that price balance mod that already exists

[burnt cape]

Everything modified in-game dynamically

No changes to items in esp

[peak berry]

yeah records cant be changed yet

[burnt cape]

Not even 1

[peak berry]

thats the problem

[burnt cape]

Ok. This is just brainstorming 🙂

IMO it's the only way in the long term

Otherwise you will always need to update everything

[peak berry]

yeah

its just

they seem kinda slow expanding the engine currently

[burnt cape]

True

Frankly

[peak berry]

so the most reasonable approach seems to be keywords

[burnt cape]

Look at some MSWE mods

Openmw is miles away

[peak berry]

which ignores enchanted items with special names

but that's just lost then

[plush jackal]

Just read the data files and make a tool that automatically generates a patch esp

[peak berry]

idk, maybe there would be some enlightenment checking the leveled lists

[plush jackal]

Or you can just generate a lua file that stores all the needed data in a table.

[peak berry]

again, pre-generating stuff for all kinds of other mods

[plush jackal]

Well... You can also just give players the generator and let them generate data for mods you don't directly support.

[burnt cape]

Yes but that's true for Vanilla. We have artifacts which cost sth like 200k. The rescaler would greatly lower the price but it would still be very high esp with every other high tier item being a bit cheaper as well. Let's say 200k items would become 40k items. This wouldn't change much for the player at all. No merchant can buy this without first getting a lot of gold from the player first. It's not that the artifacts are great as selling items, anyway.

[peak berry]

tbh i dont really think there will be a solution to this before 2030 with a new convention that all modders aggree upon

[rustic estuary]

Please be quiet, I cannot sleep 😅

[plush jackal]

no

[peak berry]

dont worry we're not talking about you 😄

[plush jackal]

You cannot silence us.

We refuse.

[rustic estuary]

I did a script that uses delta plugin to generate a patch on prices: https://gitlab.com/modding-openmw/lower-item-prices/

[peak berry]

you said you used lua 😦

this is python

[rustic estuary]

But then I realized that items were also cheap to buy 😅

[peak berry]

cheap to buy means nothing

[rustic estuary]

I use many languages 😉

[peak berry]

because you were never buying anything in vanilla

[plush jackal]

Tbh another problem with the economy is some items that are straight up better than others cost the same...

[rustic estuary]

I applied a pow 0.8 on every price

[plush jackal]

Not really fixable in a good way :(

[peak berry]

better log 10

plus xy - abc ^0.xyz

idk check my price balance mod for tes3mp, its amazing

[plush jackal]

I thought reading the data would be so much harder lol.

[peak berry]

converting the stuff into json or yaml is very easy

then its just a table that you iterate with your preferred programming language

[rustic estuary]

I took shortcuts with regexps

[burnt cape]

Buying is good. Buying means that the player is spending money. Also, in practice buying price is higher than selling price, anyway. You won't get 10k for a 10k item if you try to sell it while a merchant may sometimes charge you more than 10k depending on disposition and skill

[peak berry]

issue is that there is no material property, there's nothing that distinguishes an ebony item from an iron item except the item id

[plush jackal]

Now I really want a mod that automatically generates readable signs and music locations.

[peak berry]

and the higher stats and price

[rustic estuary]

True, but you'll easily get high end stuff too early

[plush jackal]

This is why I was suggesting some sort of partially automated patch that uses id + name + model to determine the materials of items. Then you just mark some of them as "unsure" and manually correct them.

[peak berry]

yeah but the patch would need to be pre-generated

because you cant change the prices dynamically yet

[plush jackal]

Ideally we would only need it for TD and OOAB...

At least that's all I care for.

[peak berry]

maybe the main question is, what content mods are used?

can we distill it down to 4 or 5 mods?

[plush jackal]

Is there anything other than OOAB and TD?

[peak berry]

TR

[plush jackal]

TD is TR.

[peak berry]

and uhh

[plush jackal]

TD is the resources for TR + PT

[peak berry]

creatures and undeads expansion

[burnt cape]

Most merchants don't have much high end stuff. It's relatively rare. Also, if you are spending money to buy high end stuff from shops, then it's actually good gameplay. This is how it should be. It's actually more balanced than finding a pre-placed high-end item in a dungeon and snatching it. Looting can be much "cheaper" than buying.

[plush jackal]

It uses TD and OOAB.

It might add onto them tho, so who knows.

[rustic estuary]

Ghost gate shop 😁

[peak berry]

creatures_rp_purist

rebirth

tr

undead expansion
there you have 4

[plush jackal]

TR uses TD 🥹

[burnt cape]

Fine. So? If you steal it you get it for 0. Buying costs you resources.

[peak berry]

huge script overhead there

[rustic estuary]

True, alright

[plush jackal]

At least include Project Tamriel 💀

[peak berry]

pt?

[rustic estuary]

Then my script may be useful

[plush jackal]

PC + SHOTN.

[peak berry]

fuck another mod i didnt include in my floating healthbars

[plush jackal]

Project Cyrodil and Skyrim Home of The Nords.

[peak berry]

how many content mods are there????? †.†

[burnt cape]

Does it work in-game?

[rustic estuary]

Pre-generated...

[plush jackal]

The big ones are just BCOM, TR, PC and SHOTN.

[rustic estuary]

On a mod list

[peak berry]

sigh

[plush jackal]

TR, PC and SHOTN are all under the PTR project which uses Tamreil Data.

[burnt cape]

Ok, so you pull stuff out of esps and revaluate them with patched esp

[plush jackal]

BCOM is just the city mod everyone uses it is not a big deal tbh.

[peak berry]

if you wanted to assign a real value to all the items you'd have to put all the items of the 6 expansions into a database with their vanilla prices

[burnt cape]

It still needs updating after every patch but it's better than nothing. I mean, many players probably don't update major mods during a playthrough

[peak berry]

tbh thats more than i could ask from anyone

if i was hearing that as a mod author i'd tune out immediately

[rustic estuary]

And currently it requires Linux ... But I could generate a patch for specific mod setups, like MOMW lists

[plush jackal]

It does add a few new merchants if that matters.

But not any new items.

[peak berry]

but if we distill it down to stuff that those 6 expansions have in common

[plush jackal]

Anyway from what I understand if you support TD you already support PC, SHOTN and TR.

[peak berry]

maybe it would be enough if checking for a substring like ebony etc would be enough?

[plush jackal]

Since those mods just add the landmass + specific NPCs I think?

[peak berry]

idk, someone know the ids?

[burnt cape]

I think that it would be most useful as a sort of tool if that's possible. Select mods->generate file yourself. How feasible is that?

[plush jackal]

Make sure to check the IDS used in TD.

THey tend to have a prefix.

But yeah checking ids would help a lot.

Maybe also check the actual ingame item name.

[peak berry]

yeah substring means anywhere in the id string

asgfagebonyasdassa

[plush jackal]

I know, just maybe check what they do just in case.

Although since they are a very vanilla style project I am sure they follow vanilla conventions.

Could prob use this data for a crafting mod tbh.

[peak berry]

or it could evaluate the stats and enchantments

[plush jackal]

I would love a mod that automatically reduces the range of shortblades tbh.

[peak berry]

because the alternative seems to be a worse nightmare

[rustic estuary]

Actually it's in python, so maybe it works with Windows... But I get really lazy when it comes to coding interfaces...

[plush jackal]

Maybe also reduce the weight of very lightweight items (weight < 1) to 0 for lazy people like me :/

[peak berry]

it's becoming so complicated at this point that i feel guilty for having started this conversation

[burnt cape]

Ha ha

[plush jackal]

:)

[burnt cape]

Oh well. Nothing bad with some brainstorming

[peak berry]

maybe the calculated value could be exposed and if the player feels like it's off they can change it

[plush jackal]

Anyway this would prob work.

• manual tweaking if needed.

Just need to automate most of it.

[burnt cape]

You want it eaaaasyyy

[plush jackal]

Hah, I just remember being able to fill my inventory with alchemy ingredients in skyrim.

Just grab EVERYTHING.

[burnt cape]

Ugh

[peak berry]

the level of the enchantments would be fixed anyway, so if it says 1.5 for some reason but the player is lvl 100 they can change it manually (to 5, which is the max)

[plush jackal]

Decimate the local flora.

Leave nothing behind.

Tbh it is not that much of a problem in morrowind since you can actually do alchemy on the go.

[burnt cape]

Not a fan. Deciding what to carry should be part of strategic decisonmaking. 0 weight feels like cheating. A player shouldn't be able to carry 300 arrows for 0 weight cost. My two cents.

[plush jackal]

Nah I don't blame you.

[peak berry]

micromanaging inventories is awful imo

[plush jackal]

Well... having infinite carryweight is not nice either.

[burnt cape]

I have my "lab". More practical that way. I store indgredients in containers and don't carry alchemy equipment with me. Only potions

[peak berry]

there are different concepts, i prefer carry weight only affecting how much i can return to the merchant for selling

[plush jackal]

I used to do that too...

But the ccc mod broke...

(this one https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53772)

All my alchemy items got nuked

Gone...

Forever...

[burnt cape]

The thing is that with ingredient weight you can actually decide what to carry because there is a cost. With 0 weight it's a no brainer. Almost nothing should have 0 weight except keys and such.

[plush jackal]

I am not really sure if I would use it tbh.

But I think it would be nice for some people.

[peak berry]

if you're actually an alchemist you have those trips to your closet where you have to transfer everything for crafting though, and deposit everything again afterwards

idk, was there a quick transfer keybind?

[plush jackal]

Not in OpenMW...

[peak berry]

for transferring an entire stack?

[plush jackal]

Oh.

Yeah you can do that.

wait no.

[peak berry]

iirc it was awful

[plush jackal]

YOu need to drag and drop.

[peak berry]

so the best solution was weightless ingredients

[burnt cape]

Yes. I do alchemy in bursts. There is also a mod which allows you to transfer all ingredients with 1 click (you transfer a ring)

[peak berry]

does it really hurt having all the ingredients on you though?

i wouldnt make those 1kg kwama eggs weightless, but everything else?

on the other hand,... yes i would

fuck all the ingredient weight

[burnt cape]

At 0 weight cost? Yes it does. If you care about immersion, realism, etc., that is.

[plush jackal]

Immersion is complicated.

[peak berry]

if you have a quick transfer mod, sure

[burnt cape]

I even use a mod for gold weight

[plush jackal]

Just because something is like real life does not make it immersive.

[peak berry]

or a nearby crafting mod

[plush jackal]

In face some of the most immersive games are unrealistic at all.

[peak berry]

i didn't have any of these, and i don't know if they are flawless

[plush jackal]

There is realism and then there is immersion.

[burnt cape]

It's not like real life. Far from it in this case.

[peak berry]

and there is playability

without meltdown

[plush jackal]

For example fatigue harms speech and alchemy and such in morrowind. This makes sense but in practicality this causes the player to wait to restore fatigue before they do anything which ends up taking them out of the immersion rather than immersing them more into the game. Of course this is all subjective but that is an example of what I mean.

It is something that seems immersive in paper, but in game play it can cause the opposite effect.

[burnt cape]

I also use stuff like basic needs mods, gold weight mod, a tax mod, no pausing in inventory mod... You can probably see where I'm going with this combo. Not everbody plays that way but that's what modding is for.

[plush jackal]

I am not saying it is strictly a bad thing tho.

Just that this kinda stuff is complicated.

Anyway the ideal is to make mods that satisfy both sides of the spectrum.

We are modders, we have that power lol.

[plush jackal]

I wish we had ashfall :(

[burnt cape]

Sure. Plenty of cheat mods for those who like it. Some do.

[plush jackal]

Survival elements fit in with morrowind so well tbh.

[burnt cape]

Yes. Frostwind is sort of similar, just less advanced. Waiting for that new mod - Devilish Needs

[plush jackal]

I get it but I do want to mention that this is a pretty minor change, this is only really a cheat because it is not in the base game. Even the vanilla game does not have gold weight.

[burnt cape]

Yep, no gold weight in Vanilla

No banks, either

[plush jackal]

Basically I am just saying that the games own logic is not that consistent, lol.

[burnt cape]

Gold is the only exception

Even paper has weight

[plush jackal]

Anyway an automatic weight mod would be nice, so I hope we get one one day.

Just small qol for people who don't have much time 🫠

(As a CS uni student I suffer from this)

[burnt cape]

We hijacked this thread....😅 I think that in the future it will be better if we stick a bit more to the mod's function, haha

[plush jackal]

Just think about how much mym will suffer reading through this.

No regrets

[burnt cape]

Yeah, but let's not make his life any harder, lol

[plush jackal]

(Yeah ik, I am being sarcastic, sorry about that lol)

[peak berry]

sry i found a half dead humble bee in my bathroom that i'm trying to caress back to life, good night everyone

[peak berry]

it's still fighting, dont worry. maybe it will feel better tomorrow

[devout fossil]

I read that 80% of bees in the US have died recently. Good luck! 🐝🍯 ❤️

Every last soldier counts! 🫡 🐝

[rustic estuary]

Reading you helped me waking up after my short night

[rustic estuary]

Has a punishment, each one of you all will give me at least 3 constructive feedback on Fresh Loot 👨‍⚖️

[rustic estuary]

BTB set huge weights on apparatuses to force the player to have his lab

[devout fossil]

BTB definitely has its plusses and minuses

I would say that https://discord.com/channels/260439894298460160/1226608966612553749 obviates much of BTB

With help from https://discord.com/channels/260439894298460160/1314853522520539188 and mods like Max Yari's AI improvements etc., I don't really miss BTB explicitly. I do know that many of the economy mods I had preferred prior to encountering MOMW modlists were already included in the same, so it's been minor tweaks and adding worthy gameplay mods since then.

☕ @rustic estuary

[rustic estuary]

Yeah, I tried to extract as many good parts as I could from BTB

[devout fossil]

It shows in the best way! 🙇‍♂️

[rustic estuary]

Fresh Loot 1.4 released!

• Added new modifiers with some missing effects: Dispel, Frenzy, and Rally
• Allowed bows and crossbows to get more defensive modifiers

@peak berry I finally decided to not add fortify health/fatigue/magicka effects. I'm not convinced of their benefit or the way you fixed them. I need time

1.4 is safe for midgame updates

[devout fossil]

Justice...Fireworks 🤔
Just-us--Farworks?
Justuh fuhworks
Just-uffa-works
Just Works™

[magic fjord]

nice, for as not adding fortify values, fair enough

[magic fjord]

Then again, it helps in balancing, like I previously mentioned, having too many items with the fortify skill could be very OP, so restricting it to spells and potions, I think its probably a better option

[rustic estuary]

Fresh Loot 1.4.1 released!

• Exclude a few useless modifier combinations (e.g. Lock and Unlock, or Water Walking and Water Breathing)

[rustic estuary]

I tried to limit the magnitude of fortify skill modifiers. Did you already gather too many of them and feel OP?

[magic fjord]

not really used fortify that much

I was just mentioning it as an observation more then anything

[magic fjord]

now that will really come in handy

got some other constant effect items as well

awesome, that will come in handy

[rustic estuary]

I'm curious: Where did you find it?

[magic fjord]

had to kill Navil and Ranes Ienith. those items and some others were in a locked large cabinet, I think it was a level 80 lock

[rustic estuary]

then I suppose this is a fair loot considering the enemy and the lock

[magic fjord]

indeed

they were pretty tough, as one of the brothers is behind two level 60 locks, and the other brother attacks you from behind.

so yeah, I would say its fair loot

[rustic estuary]

what FL doesn't do, is detecting that a loot is behind a locked door: Too complex and prone to false positives

FL detects locks (and traps) directly on containers

[magic fjord]

I just mentioned it, in case it was a factor

my only problem now is, is there a mod to turn off the enchanchment effects?

tried googling, not sure if its possible, but having that every minute or so, is a bit annoying, really want the items,

[forest perch]

Ty for the update

[rustic estuary]

you mean the visual effects?

[magic fjord]

yes

asked on running mods as well,

[rustic estuary]

none that I know of

[magic fjord]

that is annoying

[rustic estuary]

there are mods that changes the effects though

like https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/37072

[flat remnant]

not sure what effect that is - shield?

[magic fjord]

probably

[flat remnant]

i use that one to remove it, i think https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/45989

no clue about other effects, tho

[magic fjord]

lighting shield

[flat remnant]

not sure, then, haven't used elemental shields for quite a while

ah, that mod's desc says it removes elemental shields too

[rustic estuary]

if it's only about elemental shield effects, there is that: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/42179

[flat remnant]

yeah that looks more recently updated

[rustic estuary]

or that: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/49784

[magic fjord]

I will use that

[rustic estuary]

yours only removes the sparkles, while the two others remove all effects

maybe it's useful to have at least the aura effect

[magic fjord]

AWESOME!!!

Thank you

[rustic estuary]

that one is used by MOMW lists

[flat remnant]

that looks really neat, by the way, i think i'll check it out

[flat remnant]

ah

[magic fjord]

how do you install?

[flat remnant]

https://modding-openmw.com/mods/no-shield-sparkle/

just the datapath iirc, no esp

i edit cfg manually tho, so not sure about umo if that's what you're using.

[magic fjord]

ok

ahh it needs to go in vanilla data folder, which makes sense

much better

thanks again, that works a treat

[magic fjord]

at least now, I don't have to deal with a light show, my god, its full of stars crap

[rustic estuary]

guys, I found a clean way to take into account locked and trapped doors that block the access to containers.
Now I'd like to boost the loot level based on those new access difficulties, but I'm not sure how.
For example, currently:

• if a container has a base loot level of 15
• and there is a lock 50 on it
• and the related setting limits to 10 the loot level lock boost
• then the final loot level will be 15 + 50% * 10 = 20

But now, if that same container is behind a locked door, how do I mix the lock boosts?

• do I simply take the max lock value? max(container lock, door1 lock, door2 lock...)
• do I sum the lock boosts? (can lead to huge loot level boosts)
• what else?
  @burnt cape @devout fossil @cyan mountain @magic fjord

[devout fossil]

OverallLockFactor = max(ContainerLockLevel, Door1LockLevel, Door2LockLevel...) + .50*NextHighest(ContainerLockLevel, Door1LockLevel, Door2LockLevel...) + 25*NextHighest(ContainerLockLevel, Door1LockLevel, Door2LockLevel...) + etc.

I can only guarantee that the above is an idea.

[peak berry]

how would you detect a door though

either you count all the doors in this cell that you've unlocked so far

or you need some insanely complicated pathtracing

[devout fossil]

If mym says he has the magic, I trust him

But I am also curious

[rustic estuary]

• from the initial player position to each container in the cell
• try find a navigation path, allowing door opening (ignore doors)
• if there is a path, then find again a path, but without door opening
  • if there is no second path, or if the path is different, then we have doors between the player and the container
    • then, with the first path, from each point to the next, do a ray cast with only doors as collision objects
    • if a door is hit, check if it's locked and/or trapped and save the info
    • continue up to the container

[devout fossil]

How is impact to computation time on cell load, I wonder

[rustic estuary]

interesting formula. I'll have to check how it behaves.

[rustic estuary]

I already check multiple things for every actor on every container

[devout fossil]

It might need a final magic number fudge factor, and it might want to be logarithmic

[rustic estuary]

I'll have to explain things a bit in the settings page, so the player understand that the max lock boost is not really a max if there are doors...

[devout fossil]

Good eyes there 👀

[rustic estuary]

I have another formula that behaves nicely, a sort of hypotenuse computation: (lockA ^ 2 + lockB ^ 2 + lockC ^ 2) ^ (1/2)
And if it produces too high values, we can use "^4" and "^1/4"

[devout fossil]

This is indeed far superior to my first thoughts!

[rustic estuary]

Try with some values and please tell me if it produces reasonable values 🙂

I think 1/4 is less OP

[devout fossil]

I share your inclination in this matter

Might even want 1/5 or 1/8 for all I know

[rustic estuary]

maybe I'll use that same formula also for the "crowd factor bonus" computation

[devout fossil]

Pythagorass progression part -1
Fuller erroneously rationalizes the irrational vol. of his cube with the aid of the -S- constant, and in the process using a totaly different cube of vol. 8 as if vol. 3 cube, this error is obvious via modeling, Pythagoras, sphere packing and mathematics. So many ways to prove him wrong.
CJ is a nice guy, I have nothing against him, but if he thinks I'm waiting for him to dissect my work ,well that will never happens simply because as I know for sure he has no clue, he is in a fog the same way Rybo, or J.B. or Kirby, Steve hey ask those guys, what's up what is next for -S- I'm selling cubes, brochures, have models as well mathematical proofs -S- is absolutely meaningless to me. It is the worst of the modeling devices since my cube arrived on the scene. They teaching is done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE8dGSqSFYY

Please be advised to don your brain armor before exploring this video! LOL

[burnt cape]

Use max lock value. As a rule of thumb, the hardest lock is the one that matters the most, as it's the major obstacle for the player. If sth is locked behind a door with 50 lock and container with 30 lock, then combing them into 80 is not really a fair assessment of challenge. 50 is enough in this case.

[rustic estuary]

I agree on GP reasons. But on the RP point of view, if someone set 10 locks level 50 and 10 traps level 50 to protect his container, I'm not sure it's fair to simplify that to lock 50 and trap 50

I think a small boost added for multiple protections is fair

[burnt cape]

It's sounds purely theoretical, as such extremes won't really happen in-game. If you want to combine values, then the lower ones should count much less, as they matter much less than higher ones. Also, keep in mind that there is no real RP in a random loot mod. There will always be randomness involved so it's up to RNG. All the calculations are hidden from the player, anyway

[rustic estuary]

The player expect things when unlocking and disarming multiple doors/containers

ok it's statistical, but I want to provide a proper reward

[burnt cape]

Sure. Just not a combined value

[rustic estuary]

check that formula, with ^4 and ^1/4 instead, it seems sensible

[burnt cape]

And their may still find nothing 😄

[rustic estuary]

note that the chance to get loot is partially impacted by the loot level

[burnt cape]

Can you provide an example with formula in action?

Let's say we have a door with 75 lock and a chest with 50

[rustic estuary]

with 4 locks 75:

[burnt cape]

4 locks? How would it even work?

[rustic estuary]

3 doors and a container

with one lock 75 and 3 locks 5:

[burnt cape]

Ok, but 3 doors leading where? Can you really check that they block the path to the chest? 😮

[burnt cape]

This looks sensible

[rustic estuary]

we have a path finding feature in Lua

[rustic estuary]

that

[magic fjord]

I think there should be a limit, maybe check for 2 locked doors, or one, then the lock and trap on a chest

[burnt cape]

Interesting! You have a complex pathfinding tool, but you cannot check the merchant's gold 😅

[rustic estuary]

I think Vanilla MW and most added content will naturally set a limit

[rustic estuary]

yeah 😅

[rustic estuary]

check Orvas Dren's house for a good case

[magic fjord]

I mean, the items I found yesterday are nice, and that was with two guys and a trapped and locked chest of 80, do we really need to go above even that? if so, what more moddfiers could be added on top?

that was where I was yesterday remember

[burnt cape]

There is probably a max loot lvl

[magic fjord]

as long as we don't go overboard,

just trying to keep things responible

[burnt cape]

Yeah, it's good to keep things balanced and stay on safe side

[magic fjord]

oh yes, mym, that sparkle remover mod, that I'm using, I would give that a shout out on your nexus page about it, just in case anyone else wants to know how to disable the sparkle effect,

especailly if constant effect items become more common with this mod

in vanilla, they are rare and expensive to enchant

I mean, that sparkle effect was a bit much, I think its a vanilla effect, but like I said, doing constant effect items are rare, so its not a huge deal, especaily elemental shield stuff

I was taken aback a bit having several constant effect items, and yes, I still consider them to be fair loot.

still, I am finding this mod to be really refreshing, and well worth having

You know, this really should be added to a mod list

[rustic estuary]

it's planed in MOMW lists for v8.0

[magic fjord]

nice to hear that

otherwise, I would have shouted at the rooft tops to get this mod included

besides, its getting beta tested and balanced ready for that day comes

[burnt cape]

8.0, huh? What's the ETA for that?

[magic fjord]

I would like to know too, guess it means a fresh playthough at some point

[devout fossil]

I'll admit that my initial proposal was largely influenced by ease of explanation. I have yet to compare the curves.

[rustic estuary]

I'm not sure. Maybe OpenMW 0.49

[magic fjord]

when it comes

yeah, just checked how much it costs to make constant effects items, a LOT!!!

so yeah, the stuff I got, probably would have set me back at least 50k plus

not that I'm complaining, its nice to see CE in

and how vauable they are

so they should be kinda of rare and only if you get from say the place I got them, high level chests and enemies.

or something like that

as long as they dont drop too regularly, and in my game, only got some

so in that regard the balance is fair.

but my point is, add to many modifers to loot, then CE items will drop more often, and you get flooded by them

or how to get loot

[rustic estuary]

CE enchantments are not exactly rarer, it's just that they appear with tougher enemies

[magic fjord]

as long as its balanced

they are nice to have

[magic fjord]

oh yes, have you included night eye, water breathing as modifiers?

if you have water walking in, I would only have that as a cast when used, same as levitate if you have that in

[rustic estuary]

IIRC 😅

[rustic estuary]

I think I made both available only on use

[magic fjord]

good

having them as constant effects will be a pain,

and slow fall was the other one, not seen that pop up yet,

but if its in, then great

[rustic estuary]

Yes it is included

[magic fjord]

awesome

just checking

as night eye slow fall and water breathing are huge spells that every mw player should have, one way or another

[burnt cape]

the strange thing with Slowfall is that 1 pt spell is actually better than 30 pt spell, as it negates fall damage fully and doesn't slow down your fall as much so you can do things quicker

this has not been changed in OpenMW

it shouldn't work that way. 1 pt spell shouldn't negate all fall damage

[rustic estuary]

True

I set small values for slow fall

[magic fjord]

that should be reported as a bug, maybe it could be fixed on the engine side,

[burnt cape]

frankly it always seemed like a bug to me

I don't think that it was the intended effect

[rustic estuary]

Actually I could even reduce the fall value for higher level modifiers 😅

[magic fjord]

nice

[rustic estuary]

If it's same as vanilla, then it's not a bug. If you complain, you have to create your mod... If it's possible

[burnt cape]

can we change spell effects in OpenMW?

[rustic estuary]

That's how openmw works

[rustic estuary]

No

[burnt cape]

😄

"make a mod"

funny 😄

[magic fjord]

well, technically, there are some bugs like NPCs shifting that got fiixed in openmw and that was a bug in vanilla

[burnt cape]

yeah and there are other things as well

you can tweak HTH damage formula to include STR, for example

it's a toggle

there are other things like that

[magic fjord]

and NPC equiping items you sold, you can toggle that in the launcher settings,

so there are a few vanilla bugs that have been fixed

so technically if the slow fall is bugged in vanilla, it could and should be fixed in openmw,

and one other, "can loot in death amination" that also has a toggle, you could say that was a bug, but its a player choice if you want to or not

[rustic estuary]

They only fix very obvious bugs. When it's debatable they may add an option. Otherwise they say: That can be solved with a mod, now, or when the Lua API will allow it

[magic fjord]

ok that makes sense

I guess the slow fall is a mod only fix then

[burnt cape]

Except that it's impossible xD

Only the devs can do it

[magic fjord]

that is a bummer

[burnt cape]

I would argue that e.g. 1 pt Slowfall for 60 seconds is better than 30 pts for 60 seconds. Constant 1 pt Slowfall is also great. Much better than 30 pts

So maybe it's the duration which should be tweaked for modifiers instead of magnitude

[rustic estuary]

I think it's already mostly the duration that changes

[magic fjord]

now that is sweet, problem is, I have no idea how I got it, probably from a fight, had it a while I think, going through the main story line, but yeah, real nice, and what is more, those things are super hard to enchant, as they only can have 4 enchantment level max, I think that goes above that number.

Just need to find a matching brother and I will be pretty much fully enchanted

[rustic estuary]

That's clearly a Fresh Loot item

There is no way to create such an enchantment with a normal Morrowind

[magic fjord]

I know, the l button confirms it. just saying how sweet it is, just wish I can find a matching brother for my other shoulder

not complaing,

its nice that fresh loot goes beyond standard limits

which makes it fun to fiind as well

plus it matches my skill set, which is also nicer

it knows lol

someone is watching me, I can tell lol

[rustic estuary]

Ah yes, perfect then 🙂

[rustic estuary]

Ha ha it does not 😁

[magic fjord]

then I need to pray to the RNG gods and hope they answer lol

[rustic estuary]

What's the approx level of enemies you are fighting recently?

[magic fjord]

level 20 plus, I'm using the ncgdmw lua edition

sometimes a bit higher, sometimes lower, but I can't remember where I got the above item from, as I killed a few enemies on my travels,

I am currently level 24

[rustic estuary]

And do you steal things? Do you kill passive actors?

[magic fjord]

haven't really stolen much, I done a fair bit of killing, and a bit of lockpicking, that is where most of my loot comes from

some story releleted

[rustic estuary]

Would you say then that items in owned containers are too OP?

[magic fjord]

at the mo, I think its been pretty balanced,

I am keeping to the default settings as well

[rustic estuary]

I think the version can boost the level loot a bit, maybe I'll rescale the loot level distribution

[burnt cape]

Since you are playing a high lvl character, IMO it might be useful if you drop more reports later on. It's not quick and easy to balance late-game content 🙂

[magic fjord]

true, that may take a while mind, as ncgdmw lua edition rebalances stuff as well, so its been slower, but more rewarding.

[burnt cape]

But such reports will be even more useful

[magic fjord]

I mostly kept those settings to defaults, as iit rebalnces how fast skills level

indeed

at some point I might give the decay system a go, but not yet,

[burnt cape]

It's easy to test low lvl balance but hard to do it with high lvl characters with natural in-game progress 🙂

[magic fjord]

yeah

I mean in vanilla, with the right skills, you can easy powerlevel yourself. but here, with that mod, its a lot harder, but misc skills also play a part,

[burnt cape]

I play with skill decay on for additional challenge in mid- and late-game

[magic fjord]

I will turn it on once I feel too op

anyway, I will continue to test, and report stuff over time, just want another brother for that item, lol, it will probably drop when I'm not looking for it

[rustic estuary]

Note that Fresh Loot is not directly leveled. By default, the player level is not used to generate the loot, except for merchant's items.

There is only an estimated difficulty to get the loot

[burnt cape]

high level players with 100-200 hours or more of gameplay will have plenty of encounters both vanilla and modded ones, complete many quests, visit places which most low lvl players tend not to go to etc.

so it's plenty of useful data

[rustic estuary]

True. I just wanted to say that all the possible loot is available at level 1, if you can get it

In other words, if you kill a given actor or open a given container at level 1, you'll get a similar loot than if you do it at level 100 for those same actor or container

But for a container, if the spawned enemies around are stronger at level 100, then you'll get a better loot

[burnt cape]

and they often will be, as many encounteres are spawned by leveled creature lists. Also, Fresh Loot is RNG-based, so you will simply get more opportunities to get FL items with more hours on the clock

[jaunty fable]

@rustic estuary ever thought of a clone button

[rustic estuary]

What do you want to clone?

[jaunty fable]

Just in general the items to both sides

[rustic estuary]

You mean convert normal items to Fresh Loot items?

[jaunty fable]

You would take an enchanted made by fresh loot and clone a brand new one

[rustic estuary]

Then it's a cheat button 🙂

I don't really see the added value, except for testing or cheating

[jaunty fable]

What would the odds be of getting the exact same item spawned

[magic fjord]

For testing and cheating, a cheat button might be useful, to see what random moddifers get attached to items, and if moddifers are working right, but apart from that, no use. the mod iis about finding uniquely created magical items and pray to the RNG gods, that you get something good.

and to carry on from the balance question. while I have had a few CE items now, but its not been that many, take for example that ebony armour item I got, if I had got 3 or even a full set in one go, THEN I would be concerned. as it would mean, that somwething is broken and needs fixing.

Items like that should be rare, but as I said yesterday, I can't remember where I got it from. (as I doing the MW main quests now) so being all over. (and not a single crash!!!!!!)

I would say, balance seems to be ok, again, I not touched the settings, so in that regard, I feel that fresh loot is doing a great job, especailly giving me CE items what are technically impossible to do. one could say, that FL is cheating in that respect, those moddifers from the ebony item are quite powerful. then again, the game has some nice unique items as well, currently using a 1h axe called decay (from TR rebuilt item list) but anyway, I think for the time being balance seems fine.

I would complain or be worried if items were too numerous, then I would bring that to your attention, otherwise that would spoil things.

[rustic estuary]

In vanilla Morrowind you can already find items impossible to create items, like the nordic furred hat you can get from the paralyzed Nord.

[rustic estuary]

It could be useful for testing. A button though requires some work to code it, and disable it by default. Maybe it could be a "reroll" button, rather than clone

There could be a setting that shows such buttons in the item window

[magic fjord]

that would be fine, and above that button, "for testing purposes only"

I think I know where I might have got that ebony item from, Ald Daedroth in the main quest, you need to clear that out for the wise woman to go there to get to the inner sanctum, while you are there, its a free for all against two different factions. I am fairly sure I get that armour piece from there.

[rustic estuary]

From an actor or a container?

[magic fjord]

indeed, and wraithguard and a few other items. its just that for the default items, its REALLY hard to enchant them, as most have very little enchant level. which makes FL very good, as it gives you better options, then in vanilla.

from an actor I think

at least 6 plus in a room, and with summon creatures

free for all

maybe 8

[rustic estuary]

If those buttons are disabled by default, and you have to enable them from the settings, where there is a description on the testing purpose, no need for extra info around the buttons.
I think one button per line, maybe two if I add a "revert" button too, to restore the original unconverted item.

[magic fjord]

sounds good,

I was thinking those buttons could look like they are for testing, say a separator

for testing

up to you, as long as the player knows there for not for playing normally

like the thick separator line under misc settings, or global settings

a reroll button would be useful for testing

would be useful to test what modifiers are attached to what items, how the level of the moddifers might effect things as well

so far, from the fresh loot items list, my highest is 4, I assume it can go higher then that? so a setting or slider to force the level of the item / modifiers

[rustic estuary]

The level max is 5

There is a global setting to change the modifier level distribution based on the loot level (access difficulty)

[magic fjord]

understood

I was thinking it could be an override, once you have the testing buttons enabled, so you can set which level your are testing currently without having to touch any other settings

so you can enable the testing buttons in a save, then test stuff like item level, ok you could change the global settings, but it would be handy if there were overrides,

so you want level 3 loot, then click on reroll, and you always get level 3 loot

that's what I mean, it will help a lot

many other of those settings, can't really be used in testing, as they are more chance based.

or can be used in the right environment,

that is why I think there should be an override, for the level

[rustic estuary]

Level 3 loot or level 3 modifier?

Level 3 loot will give you random modifier levels, mostly level 1

[magic fjord]

I mean the level on the fresh loot item page, as it lists the level besides each item, So is that the item level?

[rustic estuary]

It's the modifier level, i.e. the prefix or suffix level

[magic fjord]

ok, so overriding that as a slider, then click on reroll, and you always get that modifier level, it could be useful for testing, to see if what modiffers gets attached, and if some combinations are too weak or too powerful for that level.

I think this will help a lot, then you can fine tune, how those moddifered items drop and at what charactor level, and other factors.

anyway need to go for a bit, back shortly

[magic fjord]

Got an extension to the above, on the FL settings page, at the bottom, you could have something like an ehchant page, where you can select the item in question, once selected, reroll will bring up an extended window beneath that., with a simulated roll or stats. (so the selected item remains untouched. )

Then you can keep on rerolling and getting simulated results each time, if you want to commit that roll to the item, then there should be an OK button, or if you wish to revert

[rustic estuary]

The hardest part to tweak is to set the proper loot level. If the loot level correctly matches the challenge to get the loot, then converting the loot level to modifier levels is the easy part

The loot level is directly based on actors protecting the loot. But there are many different situations, like actors being at distance from the loot, seeing or not the loot, the number of actors protecting the loot, their hostility level. Also the locks and traps (on the container or the doors) protecting the loot. Also the ownership of a container, the owning faction and the related rank......

I take into account many factors to produce the final loot level. If my algorithm fails, you may get OP loot or the opposite

[magic fjord]

yeah that makes sense

and that kind of thing is a lot harder to test.

but seeing what modifiers are selected, or can get rolled, may still be a good start

for example, for steel armour, sets, you may only want a modifier level of say 2. ebony 3 / 4 while Daedric a possible max 5, same with light and medium, so lower tiers of armour don't get the best modifiers,

so Imperial Templar Knight Cuirass, that could have up to level three modifiers, I think this might help to balance things,

[burnt cape]

I'm not sure it's the best way. It's actually fun and interesting if mid items have very good enchantments or properties. For high tier stuff it's obvious because you want it, anyway. However, if keeping the mid stuff is enticing sometimes, we are creating interesting decisions for the player.

[magic fjord]

you could be right there, could be a setting that could restrict modifier levels to low / mid tier gear, maybe a way to challenge yourself, or to balance yourself, if you want to use low or mid tier gear for fun, and don't want a powerful modifier level.

I was thinking of balance more then anything, but the above suggestion might work

[burnt cape]

It's more balanced to have better effects on mid equipment

That way the choices are less obvious

[magic fjord]

true

besides, I was just brain storming

[burnt cape]

For example, daedric axe with best enchantment is a no brainer. Now, if you find orcish axe with good effects, then you might even consider using it instead. At least for a while or in some situations.

I also think that very good enchantments with some negative effects are interesting.

[magic fjord]

indeed

anyway got to go, back later

[rustic estuary]

There are a couple of original mixes to get with Fresh Loot 😁

[magic fjord]

well, completed the main story now moving to side quests and content. current level 25, I need to work on getting some more misc skills up, overall, I feel the fresh loot has done a great job on giving me some nice loot. so will continue to post my findings.

[rustic estuary]

Thanks so much for your feedback.
Don't expect to get better loot from FL, excepted if your added content provides high level actors

[magic fjord]

still looking for a Ebony Left Pauldron enchanted version mind, I will be happy once I got that, otherwise, I'm good

that is what I figured, but still, its probably a good idea to post anything specail I might have found

[rustic estuary]

Maybe I could increase the change to get a conversion for the other half of shoulders, gloves, boots, greaves?

[magic fjord]

that would be too easy

finding items is half the fun

I wouldn't bother,

[burnt cape]

Yeah, keep it random and don't make things easier for convenience.

[magic fjord]

indeed

otherwise I will complain to the management lol

[magic fjord]

There is one thing, I tried killing Menta Na for a Daedric war axe, (should be a random Daedric weapon drop) however, I'm not sure if fresh loot is interfering, or the loot gets determined before I kill Menta Na , but when I do kill him, I'm only see a plain Claymore, nothing else. I tried to reload before I kill him, same result, and a save before I get the quest to kill him, same result. So not sure, if FL is interfering with the loot table in some way, or there is something else up? from this page, it also lists that he can drop a random ring, but I not seen one drop either

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Menta_Na_(Morrowind)

So, not sure what is at fault in this instance

[rustic estuary]

Fresh Loot does not change item types.
There are mods though that prevent daedra to drop too many Daedric items, e.g. by scaling the drop on the player level.
Like one of "vanilla friendly creatures and undeads expansion" 's addons

[magic fjord]

ok, was just checking

[polar tulip]

oh shit wrong channel mb

[rustic estuary]

@magic fjord @burnt cape do you know specific places where there is a trap door on the ground, which is locked and/or trapped and which leads to another cell (teleport door) where you can find containers?

I'm sure I've seen multiple of them, but I can't recall where

[burnt cape]

Dunno, maybe Morag Tong?

yeah, it seems so

looked at wiki

[rustic estuary]

but which place?

[magic fjord]

from the top of my head, can't remember, I will look out for one

[rustic estuary]

I cannot find that in balmora's guild

[burnt cape]

Vivec

[magic fjord]

what about the puzzle canal, ?

[flat remnant]

could be wrong, but balmora fighter's guild?

nvm, not different cell

[rustic estuary]

I can't recall such a door

[magic fjord]

racking me brains

[rustic estuary]

maybe such situations are too rare to worth the handling

I'm trying to make the loot better behind teleport doors that are locked or trapped

[magic fjord]

understood

[burnt cape]

Check Morag Tong in Vivec, then

Vivec Arena in Vanilla

[rustic estuary]

Yeah, I just checked, and there is a whole bunch of rooms in there, I'm not sure it would be fair to boost the loot of all containers

[burnt cape]

Yeah

[magic fjord]

The Vivec Morag Tong Guildhall is the headquarters of the Morag Tong.

It is located in the Arena Hidden Area within Vivec's Arena Canton; through the Arena Waistworks, to the Arena Canalworks, to the Arena Storage, into the Arena Hidden Area. The entrance to the hidden area, or guildhall, is through a locked (50) trap-door located in the corner of a locked (50) and trapped storage room.

[burnt cape]

Seems a bit much. It's just 1 door, after all.

[rustic estuary]

What I had in mind is small room configurations, with multiple containers

[burnt cape]

That will be rare. Maybe some storage areas.

I don't think it's important, though

[rustic estuary]

thx

then maybe I'll release soon

[rustic estuary]

Fresh Loot 1.5 released!

• Boost the loot level when detecting locked and/or trapped doors that block the access to the loot
• Improved the loot level and conversion chance boost formulas when loot protectors are numerous
• Reduced potential loot level and conversion chance boosts based on trapped and immersed containers

[magic fjord]

downloading

[rustic estuary]

Please note that a few setting defaults have changed, and you need to click on the reset buttons to get the new defaults.

[magic fjord]

will do

done

[magic fjord]

I'm seeing a warning in the error console, not sure if this means anything to you, sometimes I do check the error console, or if I'm reporting another bug, but anyway, I not seen this error in the previous build, or I only got the item in question recently,

[magic fjord]

yesterday I reported a bug with NCGDMW Lua Edition, but now, I'm wondering if its fresh loot problem, I have this ring Marara's Ring (unique ring from morrowind) my acrobatics base is 39 by right, it can't go above that, as its governed by my lowest minor skill which is 40, but fortify pushes that to 49 for acrobatics, when I train at this trainer, I get this issue, the error throw me off, as the ring wasn't generated by fresh loot, so either there is an issue with fresh loot and fortify skills, or something else is wrong. if I take the ring off, I can't train the skill any higher, as its capped. so a bit of a strange issue.

I'm currently in a fighter guild basement, if I dont use the trainer there, I get no error.

[magic fjord]

My theory is, acrobatics isn't in FL fortify skill set, and because its not there, openmw throws an error, that will explain the cant find enchantment.

[rustic estuary]

Trainers in morrowind rely on the current modified skill values, not the base values

it's weird and can lead to abuses (drain effects on self or fortify on the trainer), but I cannot change that and I coded the new feature considering that

[magic fjord]

interesting then,

[rustic estuary]

you mean you saw multiple times that warning?

ah yes, it's an openmw warning

I recently prevented weird modifier combos, like open + any touch or target other spell

[magic fjord]

when I use the trainer to try and train me in acrobatics, but that skill is fortiefed

[rustic estuary]

if you got such a combo before the update, then it's normal to see that warning. It's my fault as I removed a few mod combos from the omwaddon, sorry

[magic fjord]

but I saw this error yesterday, so it throw me off, so wasn't sure if its the leveling mod issue or FL, even though the ring is a vanilla item

its ok then I will ignore it

[rustic estuary]

do you remember getting an FL item with open and light on it?

or maybe that item has been sold already, but it's in a vendor's inventory and openmw complains each time you talk with him

[magic fjord]

the odd thing is, when I use a trainer to train a fortified skill, it returns a wrong value, instead of saying its 39, it says 62 and still allows me to train even though the skill should be capped, thats when I saw the error in the log

[rustic estuary]

62 is the fortified value?

[magic fjord]

not sure, I only seem to get the error when I use the trainer, but will check if I see it again

[rustic estuary]

sorry I messed your NCGD's bug report, there have been so many messages recently in that thread

[magic fjord]

no, fortified value is 49

[rustic estuary]

is the trainer a vendor too?

[magic fjord]

one sec

just a trainer

[rustic estuary]

does the warning appear each time you open your inventory?

[magic fjord]

checking

no

[rustic estuary]

if you display the FL's item window, is there an item with open and light on it?

[rustic estuary]

wait, maybe the trainer just got an FL item that is now broken.... could you kill him, get all his items, and check in the item window please ?

[magic fjord]

will check

doesn't look like it

ok

[rustic estuary]

does the warning appeared when you got his stuff?

[magic fjord]

just standard item

no idea then

I will ignore

anyway back in a bit, need a coffee

guess is an odd bug, as I never seen it before

[rustic estuary]

could you send me you game save?

[magic fjord]

sure, but its a bit modded, from the standard one day modernisation package,

its probably best to ignore, if it comes up again, I will let you know

its probably not a big deal, but I will monitor the logs, but its probably harmless, and might be either something in that room, or something that can be ignored

[rustic estuary]

loading game saves work quite well, even from different mod setups. I fixed many bugs thanks to that 🙂

[magic fjord]

ok I will upload the save then one tic

[rustic estuary]

I'll also be able to check your training issue

[magic fjord]

good point

the trainer is in view

[rustic estuary]

I can reproduce your bug

[magic fjord]

that is great, you know the cause?

[rustic estuary]

not yet, there is something weird with base values vs modified values

[magic fjord]

this is what I suspect,

the thing is, what is causing this strangeness,

[magic fjord]

need to go for a bit, back later

[magic fjord]

back

[rustic estuary]

Back... with my kids...

[magic fjord]

wb

[rustic estuary]

Sorry, is it slang? I get various meanings on online dictionaries 😅

[flat remnant]

welcome back, i think

[rustic estuary]

Thx. I found "would bang" and "what about" 😅

[magic fjord]

welcome back

[rustic estuary]

But not really back since with the kids

[burnt cape]

Let them mod and see what happens

[rustic estuary]

4 yo and 4 months old 😅

what happens is similar with a cat: pqoing$zôinvcôivne

[magic fjord]

anything can happen

[rustic estuary]

mostly useless things

[magic fjord]

more bugs

lol

[burnt cape]

https://tenor.com/view/applause-bullish-clapping-crypto-einstein-gif-11031286977985775385

[rustic estuary]

sure. A simple added letter will generate a bug....

[devout fossil]

👉 👌

👶

🥳

[magic fjord]

ok,. the one in a blue moon console error is back, however, it only seems to appear once, and only when I first trained the markman skill, (default was 30, I increased that by a bit (was a major skill but not done much with it) yet, the error only appears once, when I trained many times, I don't get an error, so it either something in my inventory that is missing an enchantment, or something else is amiss. still its strange why the bug only seems to trigger when training at a trainer??

mighty strange

Missun Akin Falasmaryon, Missun Akin's Hut

I teleported once I done, then checked the logs

I guess its not worth bothering with, but reporting it anyway, still, strange bug

[rustic estuary]

thx for the report

I think the training has nothing to do with that warning

I suspect it appears when openmw loads an actor who possesses an FL item that was generated before I removed some mod combos

the only issue is that actor won't get the enchantment effects

[magic fjord]

you might be right

that makes sense

[spark kiln]

Would these be unnecessary to run, if using Fresh Loot: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52993
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/55586
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/51546
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53879

[magic fjord]

I think every armour matter should be ok, and Truewind should also be ok, but mym would be a better judge. as for Morrowind Unleveled, dont know, that might conflict.

[rustic estuary]

I see no conflicts with any of those mods.
Fresh Loot will just improve items, whatever the items your mod setup provides. Only non magic and non scripted items that appear in levelled lists are processed by FL.
If a mod converts levelled items to unleveled items, FL still knows which ones it can convert because it has full lists of item IDs.

[magic fjord]

good to know

[spark kiln]

OP. And thank you

[magic fjord]

I am noticing an issue, it concerns a Daedric Bow that I have, it was a unconverted item when I orginally got it, later it turned into Brutal Daedric Bow. but it had no enchantments, I orginally thought it might have been the cause of the yellow errors I was getting, so I used the console to spawn a new one and deleted the old one. well, the issue has come up again, I put a vanilla Daedric Bow in a chest, using portable auto sorter, and this time, the bow tuned into Sturdy Daedric Bow, and again no enchantments

So something is wrong,

not seeing any errors in the console, I also tried the console command to revert it back, it doesn't seem to recognise it is an enchanted item.

[rustic estuary]

That bow was automatically put in a container you already opened?

[rustic estuary]

You mean the FL loot console command to revert a loot?

[burnt cape]

"the bow tuned into Sturdy Daedric Bow, and again no enchantments " -> that's because Sturdy is just a condition modifier

btw value modifier seems way too high here. Vanilla Daedric Long Bow is 50k. Sturdy bow on the screenshot is more than 112k. It's far far too much

[magic fjord]

At mym, its the same loot box I use to store all my weapons in, so I have opened it many times, I put the bow in the box, as I enchanted an amulet to use bound bow, so I didn't need the above bow. I don't know how long the bow had been in the box, as I did a few quests in between. it was only when I came back, did I notice the name change. and its twice now this has happened, a bow changing its name, and no enchantments.

and yes, I tried to use the FL revert console command and it didn't work. probably because the game wasn't seeing it as an enchanted item.

but this is a bug, which is why I am reporting it.

if you need anymore details, let me know

[rustic estuary]

You got the same bow converted twice, or were it different bows?
The revert loot command works on all FL items (including with only property modifiers). Do you see the bow in FL's item window?
Did you properly select the container before running the command?

[rustic estuary]

Fresh Loot 1.5.1 released!

• Balanced multiple modifiers, thx to @burnt cape

[magic fjord]

I will check if the bow shows up in the window,

It has increased the max condition of the bow, originally its condition is 1000, sturdy increased that by 500, but yeah, the price is a bit on the extreme side

and yes the L button does pick it up as a fresh loot item

so not a bug, but maybe the increased price could be a bug and needs rebalancing

[rustic estuary]

I missed the huge price. What's the original price?

[magic fjord]

50000

[rustic estuary]

Property modifiers that change props by multiplying them will also increase the price by a factor. Seems logical with reasonable prices, but unmodded Daedric item prices are already crazy

[magic fjord]

that is true

[rustic estuary]

Maybe I should just add a constant value like I do with other modifiers

[magic fjord]

that probably would be better

at least I know what it adjusts now

[rustic estuary]

My hypothesis is: A weapon that does twice the damage should be twice as expensive. Same for other relative modifiers

[burnt cape]

yeah, I mentioned the price because it seems crazy for anything that's already valuable

[magic fjord]

cant think of any vendors that would buy for that price even if I did sell it

[burnt cape]

this is not a good approach because it doesn't work like that. For example, condition's impact is different than raw damage. Weight is about utility. Also, FL shouldn't cause the player to get even richer much more easily

a bow with condition of 1500 instead of 1000 def doesn't deserve to cost more than 100k if the base price is 50k

[magic fjord]

indeed

[rustic estuary]

Yeah. But the other option is to add like 100 * mod level, which raises Daedric items from 50000 to max 50500, which is insignificant

[burnt cape]

if it cost sth like 60k then it would be fine (assuming base price of 50k)

[magic fjord]

I agree wiith that

[rustic estuary]

Then it's base 200, multiplied by the mod level. Which works well for Daedric stuff but NOT for a chitin sword

I think the bug is the default prices for Daedric items

[burnt cape]

you will never get this 100% right unless you implement much more complex formulas. I think that it's ok to get things somewhat right and err on the side of caution, i.e. when in doubt - less value

[burnt cape]

this is well outside of the scope of FL

plenty of modded items with high prices as well

so it's both Vanilla and mods

also, Daedric items are one of the few instances where insanse base prices may actually be somewhat justified. These are the rarest things in Tamriel after all

[magic fjord]

I'm still looking for a shield lol

tower shield

[burnt cape]

btw if you are worried that in some instances the player will be able to buy stuff too easily from the merchant, then simply block these modifiers from appearing in merchant's lists

[magic fjord]

so they only see a default vanilla item, rather then an enchanted one? that could work

[burnt cape]

yeah well the items appearing in shops for sale are a bonus, not the core of the mod which is about exploration and finding stuff out there in the world, right? So if sth is too OP for merchants because of problems with price balance, then it can be blocked from appearing in their inventories

[magic fjord]

I would get behind that

can items be blocked from being sold? some merchants could flatout refuse to buy the item?

even creeper

[burnt cape]

I think it's only possible to sort by type (e.g. smiths don't buy books) and by preventing the barter window from appearing via dialogue (e.g. when you have skooma)

I don't think that there is any real reason to block the sale of the items, though

just don't make them overpriced

[magic fjord]

if its price is too high

[burnt cape]

note that it's used in Vanilla as well for enchanted stuff. The price of enchanted items is not increased in order to prevent the player from getting even more gold

FL doesn't have to be so strict but making player richer shouldn't be the goal 😅

[magic fjord]

agreed

[burnt cape]

and it's not just Daedric. For example, increasing the price of Orcish weapons and armor by 2x will make these items much more valuable and they are easier to sell than Daedric or Glass because base price isn't insanely high but it's not low, either

[rustic estuary]

I'm not afraid of that

Economy mods should handle that

[forest perch]

Thank you Mym

[rustic estuary]

Could you send me a game save with a faulty bow?

[magic fjord]

I thought it was solved, as it increased the max condition,

unless you still want to take a loot at it?

[rustic estuary]

Items you put in a container shall never be converted

[magic fjord]

well, I don;t know where else it could be converted, as it never been in a container before, same with the shield, as I used portable auto sorter to put it in the chest,

you will need https://modding-openmw.com/mods/abandoned-flat-v2/ as that is where the containers are

[rustic estuary]

If you found it not converted, and it was converted later, then it's a bug

[magic fjord]

true, most Daedric items aren't in containers,

[rustic estuary]

It's not the first time weird things happen with either the abandoned flat mod or the autosorter mod. I have to investigate the cause.

A game save would help 🙂

[magic fjord]

not sure if the problem could be the house mod, as the chests are normal, as for the portable auto sorter, that might be, its possible because of the way it works, it bypasses the open chest mechanics, so when I open the chest, it probably thinking its not been opened before

even though the chest has been opened many times

one thing I cant say is when it got converted,

I checked my saves, I do have a save where the bow wasn't converted

going to see if I can work my way up,

interesting, an hour difference.

got a lot of quick saves

[alpine folio]

Great mod. I'm trying to tweak the settings to create more variety in the game. What I did was make property boosts the most prevalent and increased the chance of the first change. I just realized now i need to make second changes much more rare now. Have you considered adding property debuffs and expanding the mod? I want every item to have slight differences. I don't know what they would do to performance though, that is a concern.

[magic fjord]

if you want the two saves, I can upload, or the one before the bow changed?

[rustic estuary]

I'd like a save before and one after

[magic fjord]

uploaded the one before,

[rustic estuary]

Thx. Slight differences would be possible for property modifiers, but not for enchantments

[burnt cape]

New version should have more enchantments with both positive and negative effects, though 😉

[alpine folio]

That's exactly what I want. It would be cool to separate property modifiers and enchantments completely. So you could have say an 80% for a property modifier positive or negative, and then a separate possibility for enchantments.

[magic fjord]

caught red handed, if you open the chest, the bow changes

[burnt cape]

The problem with pure negative modifiers (with no benefits at all) is that there is 0 effect for using such items instead of the base versions. Combinations of positive and negative effects would be interesting, though

[magic fjord]

so yeah, openiing the chest does have a chance to change the bow

some positive and negitives on a bow would be interesting,

[alpine folio]

I guess that's effect though, it makes one iron spear better than another. But I'm envisioning one point more base damage, or two point more max damage, or a brittle weapon

[magic fjord]

but from the console, it looks like the chests in that house are fine, nothing unusual about them, so its likely a portable auto sorter issue, and the way it bypasses the opening chest mechanic,

but at least I got saves of it happening, unlike last time

and a time scale

[rustic estuary]

I have no idea. Tonight I'll have some time to investigate

[magic fjord]

sure

that Dbowchanged, it seems to be random, when I tested that, the bow did change, but then tested again, it remained as a sturdy bow.

[rustic estuary]

FL does random conversions. Not easy to reproduce the same bug

[magic fjord]

understood

jst saying that the results are random,

[rustic estuary]

I can reproduce your bug. Fresh Loot thinks you never opened that container, but I don't know why yet.

FL recorded that you already opened 33K containers (including bodies)!!

but that one is not tracked, for an unknown reason

[thorny galleon]

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/54776

Gold weight + backpacks + very limited weight budget (except if it's in the backpack)

[burnt cape]

interesting that such data is even stored

sometimes I wonder how this game doesn't explode

[rustic estuary]

yeah, openmw seems to handle that very well. I need to know which containers have been open in order to only convert their content the first time.

[burnt cape]

if you open the same chest 10 times, does it count each time separately or just as 1?

[rustic estuary]

just one

it's a tag, not a count

[burnt cape]

so, ugh, I guess that @magic fjord has been looting those urns

[rustic estuary]

I wonder: did you change your load order during your playthrough? I've heard that it can mess up object IDs

[magic fjord]

I added a few mods on top, so maybe.

unless there is something with the house mod itself,

[rustic estuary]

Alright. I'll have to check that to know if it can break FL, and if I can find a more reliable way to tag opened containers

[rustic estuary]

On top: do you know if some of the added mods were placed before the abandoned flat mod in the load order?

[magic fjord]

I think its probably because I added a few mods mid playthrough, mostly QoL

will check

fresh loot is above the house mod, should I change that?

also it needs oaab, should I move that above FL?

[rustic estuary]

FL position has no impact. Only mods that add objects to the world, like actors or containers

If a mod that adds objects was added before the abandoned flat, maybe the containers were given new IDs

[magic fjord]

portable auto sorter is above FL and the house mod, portable auto sorter has been updated several times, but nothing else I think would do that

@burnt cape I've been a busy guy, so yes, I loot where I can.

33K!! I didn't know I was THAT busy, I admit, I been tomb robbing, just can't help myself

and surprising that the game can track your progress like that

[rustic estuary]

It's FL which tracks that info

I just did some tests, I removed one of my added mods, placed above abandoned flat, and the container id is changed!

Then changing the load order breaks FL which may convert again items in already opened containers

But I found another way to tag containers, which is resistant to changes in load order: attach an empty script to opened containers

If I change that system, FL next version won't be compatible with previous ones, you'll need a new character

[magic fjord]

Understood

Goodbye progress

[burnt cape]

New TR release soon

[magic fjord]

do you have an release date?

it would be cool to start over with that update

[rustic estuary]

ASAP 😅

I just need to integrate @burnt cape 's new modifiers and maybe a new way to fix the issue you had

[burnt cape]

New TR supposedly comes out on 1st of May

So all good, I think

[rustic estuary]

Doable!

[magic fjord]

I was talking about the TR release, lol

first of may, nice,

well, I can hold off from updating FL until then, and see if there is any other mods that might be worth having then do a fresh playthrough

[burnt cape]

yeah, it will be a perfect opportunity for a new playthrough with new versions of FT, NCGD and other updated mods

[magic fjord]

I've mostly downloaded QoL mods, so not sure what else to really add on top?

I looked at an economy mod, one caught my eye, but not been updated for a while, Price Balance, but its been 2 years since its been updated, and breaks with the new version of TR data,

[rustic estuary]

FL 😁

[magic fjord]

@burnt cape your fired!

and rehired

[burnt cape]

damn, I don't know why I keep using "FT" instead of "FL" 😄

[magic fjord]

your finger slipped

[rustic estuary]

Fresh Treasures

[burnt cape]

Use a tax mod.

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53698

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/54337 use this as well

these things won't "fix" late-game Morrowind completely. Not all all. However, they will slow you down and on average you will get rich at a slower rate which is good for keeping the game interesting

[magic fjord]

thanks

I will add them for the second playthrough

downloaded

thanks

[rustic estuary]

I think I won't use the alternative method, because other FL data rely on object IDs: container stats, list of converted items....
I'd better inform players they should not alter their load order

[magic fjord]

Ok, that probably for the best, well, at least you know what is causing the problem, "note to self, DON'T MESS WITH THE LOAD ORDER!!!!!) end of note to myself lol

[delicate nymph]

Something for my Redgaurd to evade

[magic fjord]

has to pay taxes like everyone else

[flat remnant]

yeah well can't pull a baladas all the time, time to rp hlaalu properly 😄

[magic fjord]

in other words, up to no good and dont want to be found out. as a legal citizen of the empire, I could look the other way for a certain sum of money! lol

[peak berry]

there's a weird bug where you can put an item into a chest and it turns into an enchanted item

and it seems to have issues with special characters in the name

cant screenshot the vanilla tooltip but i can assure you it looks the same

maybe something doesnt work well with the l110n, if i change modifier.lua:300+ to bypass that function the names look correct

otherwise i can maybe send you a function that fixes these utf8 errors

[rustic estuary]

I know there is an OpenMW issue with l10n and Russian translations in NCGD.

[rustic estuary]

I think it's the bug I'm currently tackling for the next version: If you altered your load order, object IDs can change and it breaks FL, it doesn't know anymore which containers have already been opened

[peak berry]

the fromutf8 function can fix these issues

[peak berry]

hmm no it happens within the same session

[rustic estuary]

Same playthrough you mean? And you did not add or remove any mod in your mod setup since you started that playthrough? Or any umo/momw-configurator update?