NCGDMW Lua Edition

[forest linden]

many

and loot that enemys drop are very dependent on player level

[hoary trellis]

Lvls 1-25 are very important for the experience in Vanilla and in many mods

After that it usually is much less important

[spark pawn]

I got most of my information about player scaling from this reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Morrowind/comments/4p036z/does_morrowind_difficulty_scale_with_level/

[hoary trellis]

But you don't have to rely on reddit

[forest linden]

now looking for a Daedric Tower Shield, but I dont think I am the right level for them to start dropping

[hoary trellis]

It's not Oblivion

Stats don't change

[forest linden]

thank goodness

that game was shit

[hoary trellis]

Bandits won't wear daedric stuff

[forest linden]

the forced levelling scaling effected items, and there wasn't much point exploring once you got the right gear

[hoary trellis]

But still, you will find many more grand soul gems at lvl 20 and many more Golden Saints, for example

[forest linden]

yeah

[hoary trellis]

So it has some impact. Just not as much as in Oblivion and such

[forest linden]

in all honestly, I think the sub mod is a bit too punishing, and means, you have to invest more to get the same result

wisdom should have been higher, as I used a lot of skills that effects that.

same with agilty

I guess it really depends if you want a far harder and punishing playthrough,

I think early game, and without that much gold, will be far tougher

[hoary trellis]

That's what submod may be for. You also have many customisation in base NCGD

[forest linden]

and like I said, enchant and sneak aren't easy to level

yeah.

sneak is worthless unless you get it to about level 50,

but if you adjust the settings, then what is the point of base settings?

or the sub mod for that matter

anyway, that is my feedback

[spark pawn]

The base settings provide a baseline experience for the mod. People will always preferences that differ from the creator of the mod.

[hoary trellis]

Yeah

Customisation is great. Default settings is what many will use, though

[spark pawn]

johnnyhostile, and mym aren't ever going to be able to create a baseline that satisfies everybody, so you have customisation.

[hoary trellis]

Skill decay is a good example. Completely optional.

[spark pawn]

And in my case, an attempt at a variant of NCDGMW

[hoary trellis]

Or HP per lvl. Very important

[forest linden]

my point was, if a user has to adjust the setttings to get a better levelling experience, then either the mod in question has poor default settings to begin with, or try another levelling mod

[spark pawn]

poor is subjective

[hoary trellis]

But you may have certain preferences

Then you change stuff

[forest linden]

true

[spark pawn]

@hoary trellis What were you saying about the skill-attribute distribution?

[hoary trellis]

? #1226608966612553749 message probably this post

[charred geyser]

cybvep

@spark pawn The changes seem massive when it comes to attribute growth. Very hard to give extensive feedback with no testing in this case. The philosophy seems to be different. Some of the stuff was mostly eliminated from the latest NCGD version like these random attribute growth distributions, while you seem to be going that way in order to spread points evenly. Therefore, you have things like Mercantile and Conjuration increasing STR or Block, Spear and Heavy Armor increasing INT. Relputation-based Luck will probably interest some people. All in all it fits a submod, but personally I prefer current NCGD approach. Just a matter of preference 😄

Linked by @​cybvep from #NCGDMW Lua Edition · Apr 14, 2025, 9:24 AM

[spark pawn]

I don't know if you want my justification on that.

[hoary trellis]

If you want. Here is my guess: Your main idea seems to be equal points distribution for every attribute. Neither Vanilla nor NCGD base are fully "equal" when it comes to skill-to-attribute points distribution, so you changed that. Attribute totals are all the same except a very minor difference for SPE. Then you imposed some limits like no more than 60 for one attribute per skill and this caused you to spread things here and there even if they don't really make sense logically. Older versions of NCGD also had some stuff like that and most of it was removed after long discussions. I assume that your changes were made in the name of balance of attribute and skill totals. Since you cap skills at 100, you probably take that into account as well.

btw where do you plan to post the submod? Nexus? Here? Somewhere else?

[spark pawn]

That's part of it. One of the things I'm not particularly fond of in current NCGD is that the amount that skills provide to their governing attribute does not constitute the majority in some skills, and that the amount it provides is not always consistent. I also wanted to have some leeway for equalising potential skill-attribute gains for all attributes as you said

[spark pawn]

Nexus probably

[spark pawn]

Are there any in particular that you think are illogical?

[hoary trellis]

Right. Some of that is intentional in order to provide more variety for skills and attributes. I guess that some totals may be changed in the future but for now we avoided an another revolution.

[hoary trellis]

Well, when I look at the table you posted, I see heavy and medium armor skills affecting Intelligence (but not light armor for some reason), blunt weapon, spear, long blade etc. affecting Intelligence (but not axe for some reason), medium armor affecting Willpower (but not heavy armor or light armor), sneak affecting STR, speechcraft affectine END and SPE, mercantile affecting END...

[forest linden]

that just messed up

that would explain why my int was so low,

I hardly used any of the skills that effect int

[spark pawn]

Heavy armor affects intelligence to a small degree as it's wise to show up for battle with some protection. Medium armor is kind of a best of all worlds and inherits some of the skill-attribute gains from unarmored, light armor, and heavy armor.

[spark pawn]

Intelligence for blunt weapons accounts for staves.

[spark pawn]

Intelligence for spear as its wise to attack an enemy from afar while precluding the opportunity to get hit yourself.

[spark pawn]

Intelligence for long blade as I thought about the art of fencing and swordplay which was popular amongst the intelligentsia

[forest linden]

I prefer axe, or a 2h axe. especailly as the axes are probably the best weapons in the game

my Daedric War Axe would like a word with you

[hoary trellis]

@spark pawn With enough headcannon you can try to find an excuse for anything, but you have to admit that some of these distributions are far fetched.

[forest linden]

indeed

have to concur

[hoary trellis]

They may work for you balance-wise, though. The table certainly looks "clean"

[forest linden]

not sure why speechcraft affectine END and SPE, that just seems far fetched

[spark pawn]

Balance was ultimately the main goal, but yeah I tried to find some justification for all of the skill-attribute gains

[forest linden]

but still far fetched in some

[hoary trellis]

I like the idea of some magic skills affecting selected physical attributes. Don't always agree with the choices, but the idea was discussed previously and I hope to return to this one day

[spark pawn]

Socialising is good for your health, and you need to have a fast tongue to be persuasive.

[forest linden]

so what about sneak? effecting str? I mean, that is just silly, maybe willpower, or agility, but not str

[spark pawn]

It accounts for sneak attacking which requires strength to maximise damage

[spark pawn]

Also it still affects agility to the highest degree as it's the governing attribute

[forest linden]

but str should be not a factor

I forgot agility is the governing one, so I stand corrected there

besides, you use sneak for pick pocketing and avoiding being seen,

[spark pawn]

You also need killer thigh muscles to walk around hunched over for long.

[forest linden]

you do realise that in real life snipers can remain in a certain position for hours before they get their target, I don't think str will have much to do with that, endurance on the other hand,

[spark pawn]

That is but one type of sneaker. I was thinking more of Solid Snake crouching around, choking guards out kind of sneaker.

@hoary trellis @forest linden What do you think of Willpower governing spear?

[forest linden]

never really used the weapon

sometimes swords and axes are my main weapons of choice

I think the only way you will really see how things work is if you do a full playthough with TR rebuilt content, then maybe you will see problems or issues, regarding some skills. but that is not what I will really want to do, as it doesn't really work for my play style, from the example I gave, its too punishing.

but I think the only way you will see your sub mod in action is just that

but good luck with the mod, maybe someone will enjoy it

but for me, I will keep to the original.

which I think is better balanced

[hoary trellis]

Definitely not. Willpower affects spell chance, magic resistance and Fatigue. It's mostly a magic attribute with Fatigue being the only physical component and Strength, Agility and Endurance do that as well (and more).

[spark pawn]

I guess it depends on how you define Willpower. I'd define it as a character's patience and nerve. Spear relies on choosing your moment well to strike. I based the Willpower pick on how the spear skill is portrayed in Smuggler's Island. Willpower still has a lot of utility as a Warrior archetype. It affects your chance of resisting paralysis and your fatigue as you mentioned. I think the Willpower choice also opens its use to hybrid builds. Just look at the Spear of Bitter Mercy.

[forest linden]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Willpower

its how its defined in the game

[hoary trellis]

We don't have to define Willpower as its effects in-game are known

[spark pawn]

As we already know the base game can't be relied on to properly define it's attributes. Security is governed by intelligence in vanilla. Willpower still has a lot utility as a warrior or as a hybrid build.

And Warrior already has three other weapons skills already governed by strength. Spear doesn't rely on brute strength as much as those other skills. Endurance doesn't really make sense as a governing attribute as the distance from your target means you won't be sustaining as many hits. The only one I couldn't really rule out is Agility.

It's also why it's the second most impacted attribute by the spear skill in the distribution.

[molten oyster]

can someone pin the message containing the link to the latest ncgd?

[forest linden]

https://modding-openmw.gitlab.io/ncgdmw-lua/

[molten oyster]

yeah, i kinda frgot i could just google it, thats why i asked

[forest linden]

no harm in asking

[dawn spindle]

You can also use the arrow in the upper right to jump to the first message in the topic, which has the links in this case.

@spark pawn I had looked this over when it first came out, and decided I like small whole numbers better, and prefer the distribution of attribute impacts we recently revised for NCGD. I also maintain that there is some magic in the unequal column totals of vanilla, and I admit that I did not look into your design in great depth.
More mods are generally a good thing to have, so I'm in full support of the idea, of course!

Keep in mind that I was also in favor of even reverting Security to be governed by INT, so I certainly have more reverence for some of the original design decisions of vanilla than NCGD's original author. I think @past pendant balances this tension extremely well, and is to be commended for it.

[dawn spindle]

Security to be governed by INT
(Don't worry! @hoary trellis eloquently talked me out of it, and I gave ground. 🙂 )

[spark pawn]

Thanks for the support. The skill-attribute distribution has changed a little bit since you last saw it. I'm not so sure about the magic of the vanilla distribution. You can test the mod if you like. I wouldn't mind someone else looking over it with a discerning eye for balance.

[dawn spindle]

Can I get the ODS for attribute impacts as it stands now, please?

...or is the .7z you linked having the latest attribute impacts .ods? Looks different from before, to be sure

[spark pawn]

I didn't change that. You can use it.

[dawn spindle]

I was looking for a canonical source of your current changes to skill-attribute distribution.

...to review and give feedback

[spark pawn]

I thought you meant the distribution in current NCGD. Here are my changes to the skill-attribute distribution

[dawn spindle]

To make this more easily-read and to align the values with other similar schemes, I would first divide every value by (at least) 5, and make up the difference in the calculations. I sense that you went the way you did because it makes sense for you, so my feedback may be of marginal value.

I think there is plenty of "mathematical space" to give flavor and balance to the attribute impacts with single-digit integers populating this spreadsheet, and such an approach is miles more understandable for the user.

i.e. normalize the chart values to somethinga range comparable to this

It is very hard to compare balancing decisions otherwise.

[spark pawn]

I think having everything out of 100 rather than 8 is a little easier to understand. Easier to convert into percentages.

[dawn spindle]

To me, this is like coming up with a better system for measuring tires. Technically better, but the populace would face a painful transition, so the old way reigns still. E.g., if I'm to review your spreadsheet and opine re: balance, I will of necessity normalize and color index the values. Otherwise I effectively have to go back to kindergarten on how I perceive these values.

FWIW, in all of RL, there are inefficient and unsightly traditions that endure persistently. These ought to be changed, but one must always look for revolutionary opportunities where the gain justifies the cost, and compare short- and long-term costs, amortize them. Fun stuff!

At the end of the day, I can only certify that my opinions are my own, and offer points and counter-points in a sense of collaborative comraderie. 🙂

[spark pawn]

That's all I ask.

[spark pawn]

Well one of my main considerations when making the new distribution was character archetype. Is the player a Warrior, a Mage, or a Thief? And which attributes would these archetypes favour. So strength for warrior, intelligence for mage, agility for thief. I had to reorganise the distribution based on specialization as a result.

But have enough non-favoured attribute impact that a mage can have a bit of strength too.

[dawn spindle]

Well, one of the first points I aim to address is to understand the balance choices made by the original game designers, what constraints they faced, and what the aim of certain changes they made might~~ would~~ be. I don't think that the column total for STR being higher and END/PER being lower was a mindless accident, for example.

[spark pawn]

One of the reasons for that in vanilla is that 100% of skill impact goes to the governing attribute.

[dawn spindle]

I would take it a step further and posit that Harder Better Faster Stronger and similar difficulty-buffing mods have come directly out of some of the widespread changes that original NCGD made.

[dawn spindle]

If the column totals are maintained, it is still "balanced" in the same way as vanilla.

OG devs knew that limiting END was good for their game. Without understanding the context within which that decision was made, it is probably a hasty move to go a-changin' it

[spark pawn]

They also didn't know to make END apply retroactively to health gain. I don't think everything that the devs decided is set in stone. We shouldn't aspire to mimic their errors.

[dawn spindle]

Granted that much of the landscape has been changed since they made their decisions, and the 7pts/1pt distribution was a limiting factor

[dawn spindle]

This was indeed a big early*-NCGD-era* OP status for END, in addition to the flattening of the column totals

Yet another factor to bring about numerous difficulty mods IMO

I don't think everything that the devs decided is set in stone. We shouldn't aspire to mimic their errors.
Certainly not! I also simultaneously maintain that, in the history of modding Morrowind, many babies were thrown out with the bathwater.
It seems responsible to me that modern modmakers should understand the contexts within which those vanilla design decisions were made, and change them only mindfully.
None of the original design is Gospel, to be sure! It's part of why we mod, after all.

[spark pawn]

I still maintain that the reason for the odd vanilla distribution is that all of skill impact goes to governing attributes, and a lot of those skills are weapons skills which were difficult to detach from strength explaining why it's such an outlier.

[dawn spindle]

Almost certainly.

We chose to keep Spear governed by and developing END primarily for balance and character design reasons (as in vanilla), for instance

I think the biggest revolution has been breaking away from 7:1 on the GoverningAttribute:Luck ratio, then breaking further from 7-1 to the 4-2-1 of classic NCGD. With the okay from Mr. Hostile and mym to deviate from 4-2-1, we came up with what we think is most playable and interesting.

I will still get to a review of where you have gone with the skill-attribute impacts table, promise. 🙂

[spark pawn]

Just one thing to take into account before you make a review. I adjusted the health formula to be closer to the vanilla formula, but more easily customisable and to have attributes apply retroactively. It's part of the reason I wanted to ensure that the Mage, and Thief get a share of Endurance distribution:

(strength + endurance / 2) * healthMultiplier + [(startEndurance + baseEndurance) * (playerLevel - 1) * retroactiveHealthMultiplier]

[dawn spindle]

I appreciate the additional foresight! 👍

[spark pawn]

The first addend(outside the square brackets) represents the player's starting health. This actually scales with attribute gains and is subject to temporary fortify attribute effects. The second addend represents health gain as a result of player level and takes into account the starting Endurance and base Endurance without temporary modifiers.

[dawn spindle]

If you grok current NCGD's health formula well enough, would you be willing to highlight the major differences from your system?

If I am reading correctly, STR/END are now equal impact, and WIL is removed. I had hoped for WIL to be removed, but I stopped myself before wasting breath on making the case too strongly to @past pendant

(knowing better)

OTOH, I would not be including backdoor ways for mages to amass END. IMO, this is one of the ways that classic NCGD went wrong

[spark pawn]

I wasn't fond of Willpower affecting health either as I thought it strayed a little too far from vanilla. I think part of the reason for that is that the Mage, and the Thief didn't have enough Endurance and Strength skill impact.

[dawn spindle]

NOR SHOULD THEY 🙂

To my eye, it was a flattening and a blandening that smacks of later Bethesda titles, and I loved about 60% of OG NCGD

Enough to keep it around, but little enough to still feel thethat I still felt the loss of some things that were actually better in vanilla.

[spark pawn]

Well when a crucial stat like health is solely determined by Endurance I think you have to change the distribution a little bit. A pure Mage will still have significantly less health than a pure Warrior, but they won't be constantly teetering on a knife edge, and they won't be forced to dabble in skills that don't fit their archetype.

[dawn spindle]

That's what magic buffs are designed to address. Play the game right! 8P

Rogue should not be tanking in the first place, etc

[spark pawn]

Honestly, I'd say load an existing save with the mod and see where your health is at. Try it on a few different archetypes if you have the saves.

[dawn spindle]

I admit freely that my perspective is completely skewed from having a thousand hours into MW before even MADD or other early leveling mods, and having seen the progression of same

[dawn spindle]

You are on the newer NCGD codebase (4.x, IIRC) that supports midgame changes like this?

[spark pawn]

Yeah it works perfectly fine on an existing save.

[dawn spindle]

I don't know if it would be within @past pendant 's goalset, but I could see a very cool future where a variety of leveling mods are based on NCGD's increasingly-flexible codebase...

[spark pawn]

The codebase is great and very easily modifiable if you can learn lua.

[dawn spindle]

In particular, I would love to blend PCP's level-up dialogue with the recent NCGD changes

I learned on assembly and C in the dark ages, so Lua is not very daunting

Seeing people griping about C++ is like hearing that ~TGM is too hard 🤣

[dawn spindle]

I was thinking more along the lines of a framework to easily support a broad diversity of leveling mods. Probably beyond scope, but fun to consider

[spark pawn]

Definitely. It's outside of my wheelhouse. I don't know about mym or johhnnyhostile.

[dawn spindle]

It's probably too ambitious for right now, I am guessing.

I love that you have taken it and run with it, and will be happy to give my best feedback.

[forest linden]

an level 30 now, been to some traiiners to boost skills that were low. So far I not had any real issues with anything. I still think this original version of the mod is far better balanced. just reporting in. will post again if needed. just having fun!!!!

[past pendant]

Thank you, your feedback is really valuable

do you have a specialized or generalist profile?

I think both need to be evaluated to cover most situations

[hoary trellis]

what's your money situation btw? What are your achievements as a character in-game?

[forest linden]

I use the creeper to sell stuff, so money isn't a huge issue, as for achievements, completed the main story, mostly doing thief guild and fighter guild quests, did some imperial guard ones as well, need to finish them, as I been hopping from vanilla content to TR content, because of the higher faction requirements. I personally like heavy armour and using a 2h Daedric battle axe, an axe that I got from the siege of firemoth, decay, and a 1g Daedric war axe, I personally only really use axes, never used spears but sometimes swords, but that is rare.

currently doing TR content for the fighters guide. so making good progress.

So far, the original mod suits my play style, even though levelling is slower, but Im enjoying the pace.

just feels more balanced

[hoary trellis]

what do you mean by "original mod"?

[forest linden]

sorry the mod whose channel we are using, not the sub mod

NCGDMW Lua Edition

[hoary trellis]

ah, ok, just NCGD

[forest linden]

yes

I do prefer this over vanilla levelling system, way better.

so for me, a must have mod for any playthrough

[hoary trellis]

yeah, Vanilla system is good in principle but far too cheesy and prone to min-maxing

[forest linden]

or you can level up too quick, depending on what skills you pick and ignore others. in general, it just a bad system

[forest linden]

I have found an issue, but not sure if its related to the mod, or a bug with the item itself, the problem is this, I am using an enchanted ring called Marara's Ring, which fortifies Acrobatics by ten points, without the ring, my acrobatics scote is 39, with 49, (so where is the problem you are wondering?) well, the problem is a trainer, with the ring equipped, I can keep training at a trainer but it seems to be odd, first, when I finished training, it says increases the skill to 62, but I keep on training, and its always 62, when I remove the ring, Im back to 39, and with the ring 49. so there is a bug here, and seems it has problems with states that are fortified. I noticed this before, and didn't think much of it, but now that I able to dupe it with another skill, I thought I would report. but not sure if this is a bug with the mod, or with openmw itself?

if you need more info, let me know,

and without the ring, my training at the trainer is capped

[spark pawn]

I think it has to do with the Skill Training Capper in the settings most likely.

[spark pawn]

Is Acrobatics a misc or minor skill?

[forest linden]

misc

[spark pawn]

The Skill Training Capper limits training of misc skills beyond your lowest minor skill

What's your lowest minor skill value?

[forest linden]

sneak 82

but that doesn't explain why its saying 62 after I train, when Acrobatics isn't even that high,

I think its a problem with the fortify skills and trainers, maybe the mod is getting confused somewhere?

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Marara's_Ring

[spark pawn]

Are you sure sneak is your lowest minor skill? You sent me an image earlier of your character where illusion was your lowest at 30.

[forest linden]

I'm not using your mod,

[spark pawn]

Nothing to do with my mod. I'm talking about your character as they stand now.

You linked me this image earlier of you using current NCGD.

[forest linden]

will get a better pictr for the first

[spark pawn]

Already I can see that your security is lower than your sneak at 46.

The Skill Training Capper is on by default in current NCGD settings.

If you look at the NCGD stats menu, you should see a log of messages. Check it after trying to train acrobatics.

[forest linden]

ok, your right I messed up there, but still doesn't explain why I can still constant train and still it says 62 after train

wo;; do

[spark pawn]

Check the message log after training

[forest linden]

not seeing any errpr

[spark pawn]

I think you should see some message to the effect that "illusion is your lowest minor skill at 30. You cannot train misc skills beyond your lowest minor." The thing is it still takes your money I believe and fades to black with the Skill Training Capper setting enabled.

[forest linden]

ok

it is the skill capper at fault, turned it off, and its increasing the skill ok and saying the currect level when I train. so the capper has issues with fortify skills above the max it can train

then its clearly a bug that needs fixing

[spark pawn]

I have to confess I'm not entirely fond of the idea of capping training in that way. I think it would maybe be better to cap training by level similar to Oblivion. So each level you have 6 training sessions for instance, and any unused sessions carry over when you level up. It would also make leveling a little more worthwhile beyond just HP.

[forest linden]

yeah, that might be better

[molten oyster]

**capping off training???????????? **i dont mind closing off extreme exploit loops...but what you folks are discussing sounds like fallout 4, all character builds are meaningless cause everyone can and has to do everything

anyone training misc skills either needs to upgrade their attribues..or has sudden use for the misc skill that they didnt think was relevant while making the character 10h ago

i dont know folks, think youre burning the stew, not cooking it

[spark pawn]

I think having unlimited training session if anything enables that kind of power fantasy of being good at everything more. You can go from zero to hero in any minor skill if you're flush with cash. The Skill Training Capper setting does address this, but I'm not necessarily sure it does it in the best way.

[molten oyster]

ive put caps on money by restricting selling off things. anyone who doesnt and uses the creeper/mudcrab/cliffracer merchant doesnt want to play fallout 4 character builder in openmw

limited training sessions sure work very well to irritate the player in skyrim+oblivion

[dawn spindle]

Make Chargen Matter Again™

[molten oyster]

and to cap it all off...heres a real use case.
im playing two characters. one is a thief who doeszero dungeons/caves/burial crypts and stays in cities, lets call him woodstock.
another is a redoran+temple+main quest who is in it for the long haul, lets call him inquisitor.
the thief wouldnt have progressed upwards of level 5 if i didnt train him. and no, a thief doesnt go dungeon diving for no reason in my opinion. he steal from peoples houses to make a living. a thief who needs to use his xbow/dagger (combat skills) more often than sneak/speechcraft/illusion/security/mercantile (non combat) is a poor thief indeed. not many opportunities to level up for him is there if you cap off training! however, i can guarantee you that in tamriel rebuilt alone, you need to fight more extensively than youd presume if you only do thief guild quests. makes him completely unplayable, not that morrowind has many opportunities to play as a legit thief anyway.
the inquisitor on the other hand walks to every place. plenty of chances for him to get in fights with roadside critters, go into dungeons he spots while walking from point a to b and etc. since hes a bit vengeful, he does like fighting more than talking. this means he doesnt haev trouble levelling his major skills cause fighting is mostly what he does, thus making the game actually playable

i think yall have lost the plot if youre capping off training. but im glad i saw that.. even if as a warning to not update ngcd anymore

[dawn spindle]

but what you folks are discussing sounds like fallout 4, all character builds are meaningless cause everyone can and has to do everything
I think this is exactly what the training capper is aiming to prevent.

[dawn spindle]

This here appears to be a perfect test case for the training capper. I have never seen so many overdeveloped misc skills in my life!

[molten oyster]

wrong. if i train specific skills, then i wont have a generic character who can do everything relevatively okay

[dawn spindle]

It is definitely normal for a thief to rely on training more

[dawn spindle]

Yes, we don't want generic characters who can do everything

[molten oyster]

and the way theyre discussing training, itll mean all my misc skills need to be at 30 for me to get 30 in lets say alchemy (a misc skill for my thief)

[dawn spindle]

Walking is actually much safer in TR than on Vvardenfell, btw

[forest linden]

and flying

[molten oyster]

so what sounds more generic, a thief who has maybe one/two specializations in misc skills...or every misc skill at xx level?

[dawn spindle]

Yes, not every character should be able to be a master alchemist

Please keep in mind that you can always disable the feature in question. I'm 💯 👂 for better suggestions

[molten oyster]

exactly, but if i need to be at level 30 to cast mark and recall reliably (myst is a misc skill cause changing clothing items got cumbersome and i keep forgetting to put my armor back on), then all my other useless misc talents (the ones that i really dont use), need to be at 30 as well, istead of being at 5/10 as usual

[dawn spindle]

However, I think it is fair to say that this is an example of one of the use cases for the feature

[molten oyster]

i dont think this is a good option, and for what its worth, i hope like hell the mod author doesnt put in level caps to make the game like skyrim/oblivion. as for me, never gonna fucking upgrade if this is where this mod is headed

[dawn spindle]

If you don't want Mysticism as a minor or major, you had better have alternative plans, like TR's mark/recall gloves, or vanilla's hard-to-find pendant set.

[molten oyster]

its not even being a master alchemist. its about being a mediocre alchemist in order to cast 4 mysticism spells in my case. thats what bugged me to this extent

[dawn spindle]

To my aged eyes, the universal everyman character is an anathema to RP, and boring in the long run. I'm just one voice here.
We'd hate to lose you, but if we do, I'd like to hear your better idea before you go!

[molten oyster]

was using it, like i said, i kept forgetting to put my armor back on... after 30h. it gets irritating. id rather be able to cast 4 simple spells than have to worry bout going into battle half naked since the thief is a khajit who anyway doesnt wear a helmet/boots even if there are mods available for beast boots.

[dawn spindle]

Should have planned better!

[molten oyster]

you cant plan lifes irritation. i didnt realize people were busy making mods that turned morrowind into skyrim with how training operated till like 10m ago

[dawn spindle]

Allow me to recommend Petr's FastEquip OpenMW-Lua mod: https://gitlab.com/ptmikheev/openmw-lua-examples

[dawn spindle]

disable the feature and carry on, if it is that bad

[spark pawn]

What you've described is not even how the current Skill Training Capper works. In current NCGD you cannot train minor skills beyond lowest major skill. You cannot train your misc skills beyond your lowest minor skill. There is nothing that says you have to train all of your misc skills up to 30. I'm not a huge proponent of this system. I think it would better be limited by player level and have unused training sessions carry over on levelup. Your play style seems to rely on self-imposed restrictions. Not every player is going to have the same degree of restraint, so why not have a setting you can enable manually to handle the restraint for you?

[molten oyster]

my modlist is already shaky. everytime sophie talks. i get more worried.

[molten oyster]

well...i sure am glad i dont have whatever version of the mod youre on. as for this mod, definately a major blunder to cap skills. restrictions are done cause i know myself well enough to know whatll ruin the fun for me. so i avoid doing that. that woodstock and inquisitor are complete opposites in how theyre being played

[dawn spindle]

@spark pawn wrote:

I'm not a huge proponent of this system
I was doubtful at first, but have been delighted with the character design implications. Noted that I do design and sometimes even play far more characters than most other users.

[molten oyster]

i dont like the level skill training caps.

thats all im saying

[dawn spindle]

...and I like them being distinct in terms of capacities, character, feel, etc

I'm still all ears for a better suggestion, and happy you have the option to disable the feature.

[molten oyster]

yeah, do i look like the kinda whos happy about anything

fucking hell

[spark pawn]

You realise that everything is customisable. You can enable and disable these setting at will.

[molten oyster]

atleast theres that, thought it was baked in with no modoifier like that insane version of potion capper which doesnt make anything obvious, hides information and operates like a black box\ (replaced it with a better mod that essentially does the same thing, but in a way thats not as retarded)

[dawn spindle]

I have great empathy for how jarring it must be to come into MOMW's ideas of balance and gameplay without having prior experience with some of the mods involved

[forest linden]

true

[dawn spindle]

Going straight from Vanilla to 2025 MOMW? I would be so confused and sad

[forest linden]

I dont mind playing with the skill capper, but what I found is still a bug of sorts, even if I can turn off the skill capper to increase beyond that. I mainly been levelling my miscs skills to gain a few more levels. (charactor level) that is the only reason why I did it

[dawn spindle]

I would be stoked on the majority of things, to be sure, if I were to go from modded Morrwind.exe circa 2000's to 2025 MOMW

[molten oyster]

i dont mind the balancing aspect, i am all up for the trader disposition balancing, speechcraft/mercantile nerf, potion capper, rich merchant randomizer, throw them at me, ill beat you.
my mercantile is whatever it is with zero training cause disposition resets and i use that to train mercantile
i dont really understand what they did to balance speechcraft/merc so i dont know what i need to beat
potion capper og mod was just busted, even sophie said it was badly made and hid info before suggesting a better alt that total overhaul now uses

remove the expensive items, illl make money some other way.

[forest linden]

true

[dawn spindle]

I enjoy this kind of gameplay description! So many ways to play. I almost always focus on 3-5 key skills to be my ladder rungs into the mid-game

[forest linden]

some skills are busted

[spark pawn]

I think in current NCGD misc skill don't contribute to player level

[forest linden]

some like sneak are worthless until you get them high enough

[dawn spindle]

Potion Toxicity mod has served me since it was released IIRC, never an issue

[molten oyster]

yeah, what i was trying to show that beating the system is fun, but when you put a stupid fucking level cap, then i dont know how anyone can beat that without becoming like nate in fo4

[molten oyster]

theres an alternative mod which shows info in a better way.

[dawn spindle]

It does, but less. I think it is 1.25/1/0.75 major/minor/misc

[spark pawn]

You're talking about the skill gain rates

[molten oyster]

i even like the skill growth and decay system. from what ive seen, im probably one of the few lunatics who has decay turned on ffs

but level caps? fuck that

[spark pawn]

I think in current NCGD it works like vanilla now where you have to increase major and minor skills 10 times to level up

[dawn spindle]

I think the core idea is that it's more fun to not be able to do everything on every playthrough. It can be disabled. Perhaps you think it is a sneaky default include in MOMW lists? It may be time to suggest an addition to the MOMW modlist FAQ

[spark pawn]

I had to change this system in NCGDMW Ultimate Leveling.

[molten oyster]

but who makes a character who can do everything well anyway?

unless youre going for power-levelling and selling every bit of scrap, have extreme patience, itll be off-limits for majority of the players

[dawn spindle]

I may have missed some chat, and I am not reviewing the code. Last time @past pendant and I talked, it was as I explained above. 🤷‍♂️

[molten oyster]

even my guy cannot do everything well...as is evident from the screenshot earlier

[spark pawn]

@past pendant was talking about skill gains

[dawn spindle]

It was a significant and interesting challenge for me to design a viable character who could still qualify for most every faction, while also using mods to make factions more exclusive and increase their skill and attribute requirements. I really enjoyed figuring out how to make it work.
Uncapped training really flattens out my builds and makes them samey. I'm super gratefull for the feature.

[forest linden]

then I might have been mistaken about it rasing my char level, but misc skill training still effects attributes

[dawn spindle]

Indeed, this was the original question I responded to:

What's the bonus to skill progression provided by assigning a skill a major skill or a minor skill?

[spark pawn]

Yeah to a lesser degree than major or minor

[forest linden]

and because of the TR factions, many factions have higher requirements

thats the other reason

[molten oyster]

im surprised to hear that. training makes my builds extremely specific instead of making them all same. seems like our way of playing is very different indeed

[dawn spindle]

I think it is partly the same question, right? Faster skill progression is faster leveling

[spark pawn]

No but misc skills provide nothing in the level calculation. Zilch.

[dawn spindle]

I use training when I have to, but prefer to do gameplay-type activities to raise skills

[forest linden]

for example fighter guild top rank Master Strength 35 Endurance 35 One skill at 90 and two at 35

but you can add a plugin to bring that down

[dawn spindle]

Oh, I get you.

[forest linden]

then I stand corrected on the leveling

[spark pawn]

The way the level calculation works in current NCGD is it takes your current skill level if it's a major or minor skill and subtracts it from your starting skill value. It then divides the differences by 10 to determine current player level.

[dawn spindle]

I use plugins to make it harder.
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53713
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53699

[past pendant]

let's continue that topic here

I did some test, and it seems that openmw ignores the player skill fortifications, while taking into account that trainer's

I gave the marara ring to the trainer, he equipped it, raising his acrobatics to 81, then I set the player skill to 75, removed the marara ring from the player, disabled NCGD's training cap, and I was able to train acrobatics

with the player, openmw ignores fortifications for training, contrary to what UESP's pages says:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Trainers

ah yes, they say you can fortify your governing attributes

I misread that part

I think I got the fix @forest linden 🙂

[forest linden]

great

[past pendant]

I just need to use the player's base skill and the trainer's modified skill

thx for your report

[forest linden]

np, glad to be helpful

bit of a bug hunter

[dawn spindle]

One of the oldest tricks in the book is to ~setskill whatever you like to whichever trainer, ofc

[past pendant]

but I think it's an openmw's bug, because Morrowind.exe is supposed to also use the modified skill value of the player

[past pendant]

actually I tried that, but if you reduce the value, with NCGD it's considered as a decay, even if decay is disabled. Sort of a bug I could fix BTW

[dawn spindle]

I will admit to a little confusion here: at one point, both PC and trainer had Marara's Ring??

[past pendant]

yes

[dawn spindle]

ok

[past pendant]

I added the item to the trainer to test the fortification

ofc he equipped it instantaneously 🙂

[forest linden]

certainly a strange bug

[dawn spindle]

not a bad item after all 🙂

[forest linden]

the item is rather nice

[past pendant]

yeah, it's a bug only because it differs from vanilla...

[forest linden]

squash it

[dawn spindle]

Doesn't it have to do with how certain buffs and debuffs are applied by various chargen mods? With a curse attached to make them permanent?

[past pendant]

curses have been removed from NCGD since openmw 0.49

but yes, there are abilities which modify the base value of attributes and skills

[dawn spindle]

Yes, but other mods persist in this manner alongside NCGD...

[past pendant]

spells of type ability

[dawn spindle]

I will test https://discord.com/channels/260439894298460160/1343504949589442641 now and let you know either way

I will also be testing Danae's Class Abilities alongside

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 4.1.7 released!

• Fixed training cap feature using player's skill modified value (including fortifications) instead of base value (might be an OpenMW's bug)
• Fixed lowering skill values with the console while decay is disabled showing a red value (decay) in the stats menu

[forest linden]

great, so fine over an existing save ok?

[hoary trellis]

@past pendant 's mods usually can be installed mid-game

[forest linden]

just checking

[past pendant]

Please tell me if it's fixed for you

[forest linden]

will do

[dawn spindle]

I started an Archer, default class, one of the cat races from an all-races mod. I talked to the guard in Seyda Neen to pick the Archer profession from Danae's Class Abillities, gaining +10 Marksman. I used Special Advantages & Disadvantages to gain proficiency in Marksman, in trade for a few ineptitudes. I coc'd to Balmora FG (BCoM), disabled the door, and made the lady trainer there a master trainer of marksman. Started with Marksman at 65, and was stopped at this point, without further messages apart from the lovely new time-spent notifications for training. I could not screenshot in time to capture the last 3 notifications, because I had previously and inadvertently set function-lock to on, sorry!

[forest linden]

fixed

[dawn spindle]

As Lua mods go. Yep, you can even ~reloadlua and test your dynamic edits to .lua files without restarting the game 🤯

[forest linden]

thank you

hi, nice to meet you

[dawn spindle]

FRIENDS!

[forest linden]

this message will self destruct in 5 seconds,

[dawn spindle]

This one, never!

[forest linden]

over our dead bodies

oh yes, that FL error message isn't appearing either

so that been fixed in the process

good news all around

the drinks are on me

[dawn spindle]

Sorry, beat you to it! You can get second round 🫗
Good time these days to be enjoying these copious OpenMW mods of quality! 🥂

[forest linden]

hear hear

good to be back

awesome game engine, awesome mods, awesome mod authors and community

[dawn spindle]

There is a palpable tipping point of inertia as OpenMW-Lua comes more and more online...it really is a special time that I think many people don't appreciate enough. It is all done without a corporate structure, a purely-human effort. I'm gonna cry again O Lawdy

[forest linden]

I think the inclusion of lua will make openmw future a whole lot brighter

then openmw won't just be for graphic and sound mods

[dawn spindle]

I hope to survive to see the fruits of the ultimate de-hardcoding! Mind you, I am in great health at the moment.

[forest linden]

me too

I really love this game, been so long since I last played it

[dawn spindle]

I am glad to hear that you are well, good sir.

[forest linden]

ditto

[dawn spindle]

It's one of the few that has drawn me back repeatedly. It's interesting how TES3 and OpenMW have intertwined with my life experiences through the years, and how different Vvardenfell has seemed to me at different times. I power-read the complete books of MW from the Imperial Library recently and was overtaken by texts I had dismissed as a young adult. It's a very expansive lore, from back when that was a core mission goal for game developers. A timeless specimen, indeed!

[forest linden]

yeah, it really is a great game

and the later games arent even remotely that good

[dawn spindle]

Thank you for receiving my poetic waxing, and I hope it was only an ornament for this fine venue of discussion and fine mod author!

[forest linden]

and drink on me

[hoary trellis]

Yea this is peak TES in terms of lore and atmosphere.

[forest linden]

indeed it is

[hoary trellis]

Best art style as well

[forest linden]

a pity that the original was a buggy and crash fest of a game.

[hoary trellis]

Typical Bethesda experience

[dawn spindle]

The systems were more complex and engaging in prior games, (DF only once debugged, Unified, and DREAMt), but TES3 is a genuine sweep spot, for my taste

[forest linden]

sadly

[dawn spindle]

OG MW was 500% > OG DF

Perhaps 1000%

[hoary trellis]

I played DF but it's too much dungeon crawling IMO

And too much proc gen

[forest linden]

I gave it a shot, but dropped it

[hoary trellis]

Yeah

[dawn spindle]

That used to be the whole genre, with some town trips in between. Diablo series brought it back, but hard

[hoary trellis]

DF had realistic scale and banking and carts and that was great

[forest linden]

I don't mind dungeon crawlers, but DF just didn't grab me

[hoary trellis]

Morrowind has a great mix of everything

[forest linden]

then the later series, more shallow and more aimed towards consoles, and still a buggy as ever

I agree

[dawn spindle]

Aye, to me, at least, DF had a lot to admire, and losses to mourn (climbing, anyone?), and the later games have fans that like to impose horrible systems that they grew up with onto Morrowind so they can cheat it in order to experience its greatness....case in point, always-hit mods

[forest linden]

FL and this mod really breaths life in MW, more mods are icing on the cake

[hoary trellis]

Graphical mods are great

[forest linden]

sure are, don''t think I can really play with vanilla graphics anymore

[dawn spindle]

Meh, potato life for the win. MET for sure, and some normals, we good 👌

[hoary trellis]

Modded MW looks better than Oblivion and beats Skyrim in terms of art style

[forest linden]

skyrim, don't talk to me about skyrim lol or oblivion, both need to be in the bin

incinerated with fire

[hoary trellis]

I may play Skyrim with seasons mod. It's incredible that modders did it

[dawn spindle]

Where is the Beavis emoji?

[hoary trellis]

Soon we will have new TR release. I will create a new character then 😄

[dawn spindle]

I played both for a bit, but I think the continuing modding scene for MW brought me back. I was a CS Major and very entertained by the Morrowind.exe memory hacking that was going on

[dawn spindle]

Pretty hyped for that, having really enjoyed some of the recently-added TR questlines! Crazy how much better (denser) the newer TR content is!

[forest linden]

cant wait

[hoary trellis]

It's like an unofficial expansion at this point

[forest linden]

probably will require a new playthough to fully enjoy

[dawn spindle]

There was also a certain...flatness to TES4 and 5. A blandness? Hard to express.

[hoary trellis]

Yes it lacks character and depth

[forest linden]

4 certainly, lack of many spells made it so, also felt small

[dawn spindle]

They began the project before Morrwind.exe was even released, when they heard BGS was pulling back on scope for TES3

I wish to recognize that this is one of @past pendant's luxurious living rooms, and that this chat is not related to NCGD, except tangentially at best.
So, to relate the present discussion to the mod...what did TES4/5 ruin completely, that was back-imported to TES3 via the first editions of NCGD, in the context of the longer lineage of leveling mods like MADD and GCD? Core question IMO

[forest linden]

interesting, oblivion had a game world size of 41 kilometers, but I really don't think I even remotely explored a lot of that, I think its the forced leveling scalling, and if I remember, equipment scaled with the player, so in that regard, there was little reason to explore, once you go the best equipment, plus being a pretty crappy story to boot, there was nothing to really engage the player past the story, nothing to explore, as you have the best loot by then

so the world felt lifeless

and many caves weren't that interesting to explore either

quantity over quality

then again, with TR rebuilt, that has a game world size of oblivion,

[past pendant]

Did you try with v4.1.7?

[dawn spindle]

4.1.6

Sorry, I was already underway with testing when you published 4.1.7. I will reproduce the same sequence soon

[past pendant]

😁

[forest linden]

what is more, it must have squashed that FL error as well, as I not seen that

so nice job

kinda of surprised, no one else noticed this before now.

Still trainers are now working as intended.

[past pendant]

thx

the FL warning may happen again as I think it's related to an item which lost its enchantment. Nothing serious though

[forest linden]

ok, I will keep an eye out,

but I not seen it since the new update

I mean, I load that save that I uploaded for you, I stay in that room, and no error, I interact with the trainer, and no error, so whatever it was, doesn't seem to be happening now.

[past pendant]

hard to say how and when the warning was generated

[forest linden]

yeah, I would class it as a once in a blue moon bug and move on

anyway back in a bit

[forest linden]

back, going to play openmw, I'm going to keep checking the erro console once in a while, just in case, but my final word about that FL error, it only seemed to occur when after I interacted with the trainer, and not before. I could stay in that room for a while if I just stand there and zlitch. just the log about changing of music. but no error. so yeah, its a once in blue moon issue. and I have my doubts it will show up again, but you never know.

[dawn spindle]

@spark pawn Hey, and sorry to put this here, but I couldn't find a channel for your leveling mod.
I took some time to look at your attribute impacts table. It's really quite the opposite of recent changes to NCGD's skill distribution. Even more NCGD than original NCGD! There are very few zeroes in your table! Whereas we worked hard to come up with something with more atomic (less spread-out) attribute impacts for eachalmost every skill.
I just can't get with the headcanon redefinition of the skills in order to include INT/WIL in fighter and thief skills. I see this as one of the critical mistakes of NCGD 1.0 that was recently addressed fairly gracefully, FWIW.
The use of percentages still doesn't sit well with me -- I'm not convinced of any gains from it (apart from further diluting the distinctions between skills), and it makes attribute impacts much harder to understand. For example, do you plan to list several percentages in each skill's description?
MaybeCertainly some people will prefer this to NCGD 4.0's approach! Don't let me stop you, and I hope my thoughts can be of service to you.

[dawn spindle]

Please feel free to PM me if you'd like further discussion. I feel we should probably take it offline out of respect for mym's living room here.

Or, just make a discussion in #1169031292805992599 , even better!

[spark pawn]

I did receive mym's permission before posting here. But, yes, I do intend to open a mod discussion once it's ready for release which is just waiting on me figuring out some of the new UI elements. Thanks for the feedback

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 4.1.8 released!

• Fixed decay Lua error when decay happens

[forest linden]

great will update

[void roost]

Mod has the option to set how fast player can skill - if I set 0-100 to 200%-100% this will make 150% at 50.
It will make 50% on 150 and 0% at 200?

Higher skill level required more exp to level up skill?

I would like to make faster skilling for low lvls eg 200-100% from 0-100 and stay at 100% for 101-1000 or set another

e.g.
200-100% for 0-100
100-50% for 101-1000

[past pendant]

The setting progression is not linear, you won't get 150% at skill level 50. Use the test setting to get your value

[void roost]

But I get 150% at 50

Wait I will check

[void roost]

True, it's 160%

But still is missing Test for more values like 0 25 50 75 100 250 500 750 1000 to know how it will work later

[past pendant]

You can set any value in the test option

[void roost]

I didn't know how, must to check later

HAPPY EASTER!

[dawn spindle]

Happy Ishtar/Isis/Astarte to everyone less than 6 or 7 timezones west of England 🇬🇧 at this time tomorrow!

[forest linden]

indeed

[hoary trellis]

Btw folks, are you using magicka regen mods? One of them is a part of the modlists. I played with it the last time. I like the fact that it affects the NPCs as well as the player. I'm not fully convinced that I like the overall gameplay effect, though, as it allows magicka regen by simply waiting. It's certainly convenient, but seem a bit too easy.

[forest linden]

I use this one, https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53923

its very customisiable

[stray nimbus]

I use pharis magicka regeneration, it regenerates based on willpower, makes the game a lot harder especially when fighting magicians or daedra

[forest linden]

is that the one you are refering too?

[fierce terrace]

I use this mod: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53862

alongside another to disable enchanted items from regenerating. I always felt like building your skills and casting yourself shouldn't be outclassed by enchanted items.

[past pendant]

I'm using that one too. I'm globally satisfied with it

[stray nimbus]

Simple and effective, especially with me having 140 willpower through NCGD

I make it fair for my enemies through HBFS though

[hoary trellis]

I'm using this as well. I sort of get the appeal but wondering whether I truly like it because I think that it makes the game easier for characters using magic. Maybe setting the base rate lower than default would be enough. The modlist also includes the Focus mod which is good because it provides limited regen until you reach very high stats but it seems strange to use both magicka regen and focus mod at the same time and that's what Expanded Vanilla has for defaults

[stray nimbus]

I have the regen rate at 0.6 i think, just fast enough to regenerate between battles, so no fire balls machine gun wizardry mid battle

[past pendant]

Ah yes, I wanted to have a different rate for the player

[hoary trellis]

hm, yeah, that might be it. I guess that it can be jury-rigged with HBFS by lowering the default regen rate by a lot and giving the enemies a big bonus to WIL but it's not the cleanest solution 😅

[past pendant]

BTW Pharis' mod isn't being updated anymore?

[hoary trellis]

maybe there wasn't anything that needed updating 🙂

[forest linden]

as long as it works

[hoary trellis]

it works

it's part of the modlist and doesn't really cause any issues on its own except balancing which is of course always tricky

[forest linden]

balance is always a problem

unless the script has a settings page, and you can adjust

[hoary trellis]

it can be adjusted

the regen rate, I mean

in the configurator

[forest linden]

thats good

[hoary trellis]

no separate rates for PC and NPCs/creatures, though

it's same for everyone

[forest linden]

ahh

seems to be the case for the one I'm using, no values for npcs,

[hoary trellis]

the good thing is that Pharis' mod does work for NPCs/creatures

so it's not player only

[past pendant]

I also wanted to add a boost when the player stands still.

[hoary trellis]

I don't think it's necessary. In fact, it would only make some things worse because waiting would be "promoted"

the fact that you can cast high cost Charm or Open or Levitation or whatever spell 2-3 times and then wait 1-2 hours to regen magicka again is one of the reasons why I don't like the regen system in this form (in Vanilla resting is not always possible and it can also be interrupted)

it's actually less of a problem in combat because you don't have unlimited time in combat

[past pendant]

I was rather thinking about something similar to the magicka focus mod, where you need to "actively wait", excluding the wait interface

[hoary trellis]

Yes the focus mod is quite nice as the power is limited to 1-2 uses per day and drains Fatigue. It only becomes unlimited at 100 attribute lvl iirc

But using both seems like overkill

Strange that it's default for the modlist

[past pendant]

Yes, if I'd create a magicka regen mod with such a lite focus feature, I would not need the focus mod anymore

[forest linden]

I have been seeing this warning on and off, but for the life of me, I'm not sure what is causing it, as its in the middle of NCGDMW, or could this be linked to something else?

So not sure what is the culprit in this case?

[past pendant]

Not related to NCGD I think

OpenMW should show the file name and path

[forest linden]

how do I get the filename and path? as that all it tells me, I will post this in momw general, maybe someone there can narrow down what this is

[past pendant]

I don't think you can, that's the problem

[forest linden]

asked there, and got told its probably a harmless warning, probably a texture or normal map that hasn't got the right proportions.

[swift hornet]

I'm like maybe, finally back lol

what an ordeal

[obsidian arrow]

Hello, great mod, nice work. I am writing to maybe point to an error, or seek some help. I'm having issues with multi school spell casting. It won't apply skill progression to all schools in custom spell.

[spark pawn]

I think it's because of this line in skills.lua: ```lua
if false == handler.handler(state, skillId, params) then

You can fix it yourself by changing it to: ```lua
if false == handler.handler(skillId, params) then

It's line 353

[obsidian arrow]

Error changed

Wait, that might be wrong error, I've might tinkered in lua's, let me bring back the original and change that line

this is error, after just removing the state parameter

[spark pawn]

Have you been editing the script with the game open?

[obsidian arrow]

yes

[spark pawn]

did you reloadlua

[obsidian arrow]

I'm reloadlua'ing

but I'm completly new 😄

I did some changes previously to the getSkillUsedHandlers in skills.lua or the event in player.lua, but somehow the state was always missing, or not exactly in a way it should be

[spark pawn]

try following this set of instructions: Press ` to bring down the console
Type luap and press enter
Type I.NCGDMW.ResetStats() and press enter
Type exit() to quit the Lua mode
Exit the console, wait 2 seconds, and you should see NCGD popups informing you of the attributes updates and NCGDMW init finished
Check your player's profile and the stats menu to be sure everything went well

It will reset state

[obsidian arrow]

progress should be all the same of reset to 0?

seems like it reset ok, but nothing really changed

[spark pawn]

Do you still receive the error?

[obsidian arrow]

single use spell works, for multi school I still get error, with that line changed

Previously I've "debugged" it to line 270 in skills.lua, added there in params a useType = params.useType to give the next event of skillUsage with afterHandle set to multiSchool this one missing info in initial error

but it somehow moved around some parameters, but I ended up in the second screenshot error, not having valid state to provide to decay..lua methods

and following this if skillUsedHandlerMultiSchool had it's first argument set to state instead _ and I've provided it to the sendEvent as state = state, and in player.lua in 482 added data.state as first param, something else broke 😄

so I've decided to ask since I did not find a way to fix it :/

one thing to point is that Spell is alteration + illusion, and alteration is leveled fine, the illusion is broken

[spark pawn]

@past pendant can probably assist you with this, but I have to say I'm a little confused. When I asked whether you were still receiving the error, what changes had you made to the script besides the one I suggested?

[obsidian arrow]

What I have changed myself was befire asking here. I forgot to clear my changes before applying your fixes. First screenshot is with my changes, but shows main issue I have on original too. Second is with your suggestion but still my changes in (probably player.lua or skills line 270). Third screen is original with only your suggestion imcluded.

I have just described what I did before asking here for help

[past pendant]

Thx for helping on that. Looks like an unfinished refactoring. I cannot test it right now but I'll do it as soon as I can. The bug report seems explicit enough

[obsidian arrow]

Ok, I think I've fixed it

Not only removing the state in skills.lua line 353, but I've also added state to player 482, (mSkills.applySkillUsedHandlers(state, data.skillId, data.params, data.afterHandler))

it seems to be fine when using single school spells, multi schools and also other skills

[past pendant]

Thx, I'll check your fix and publish a release ASAP

[stray crag]

is this why im not acquiring new levels after using racemenu?

new character but i changed my appearance and race a few times, lost all skills but now i gained 2 major skills but level still says 0/10?

[forest linden]

press the N key, it will tell you what skills you levelled

[past pendant]

Losing all skills is normal when using those debug console commands.
The vanilla skill counter (0/10) doesn't work with NCGD. As @forest linden suggests you can see your progression with NCGD's stats menu

[forest linden]

its a different style of levelling, which is why that bar is disabled

it wouldn't make sense with the new levelling system

[stray crag]

great! so ive already beaten morrowind in the past, have no strong desire for vanilla level up systems, i trust you guys if yall say this is a cool mod?

[forest linden]

it is

way better

plus you can tweak a lot os settings, including how fast or slow skills level,

your finding the sneak skill really slow, you can bump that up a bit, same with enchant, but if you find that some skills are levelling too fast, you can slow them down

[past pendant]

NCGDMW v4.1.9 released!

• Fixed Lua error during multi-school spell skills progression

[past pendant]

My fix finally required 3 small changes. Please check the last release and report back if anything goes wrong.

[obsidian arrow]

I've checked it. It is working nicely, thanks for the support 🙂

[forest linden]

I have been using the openmw testing feature a lot recently, as I have upgraded to TO, so I was using the testing feature to make sure everything was ok, however, NCGDMW overrides the script that you can use, as the script sets the player to 100 for all stats, so is there a way to turn off NCGDMW if you use the tsting system, that bypasses the main story? maybe something that could be added to the test script that can turn off NCGDMW, maybe NCGDMW = false

at least then, it won't muck up the settings when you do play the game for real

[past pendant]

It's not really possible to detect the test mode.

But now we can preserve chargen attributes with a setting, you should get what you want

set "Full" to the setting "Start Values Ratio"

[forest linden]

that will certainly help

thank you

[tame valley]

Hello everyone! Has anyone progressed far while using this mod? I'm trying to decide if this mod alone would give me enough difficulty so I can leave the difficulty slider in the middle, or is it recommended to put the slider to the max as well? I'm planning to do everything (main game + most of TR) on a single character. Sadly I just cannot replay a game after my first playthrough, so I want to make this first one just right in terms of difficulty.

[forest linden]

it doesn't really touch difficulty too much, if you want a balanced game, then this mod will work. the main difference, is, that while you do level slower, skills can effect several attributes, so they will auto level, so you don't touch them. you just use the skills you want. but you can adjust how fast or slow those skills develop.

the mod is very customizable,

[hoary trellis]

This mod won't be enough for such a long playthrough, but it will help a lot. Use skill decay and low skill/attribute growth settings. Use settings with low HP gain per lvl or 0 HP gain per lvl (that matters a lot). Use Harder Better Faster Stronger mod for better difficulty customisation. Vanilla difficulty slider only affects physical dmg (hit chance and magic dmg not affected).

[forest linden]

I was going to suggest that mod, but by the sounds of it, Dahatox wanted a balance playthough on their first go, so I decided against mentioning HBFS

but yeah, if you want a challenge, then there are mods that can increase the difficulty

[hoary trellis]

Vanilla+TR is loooooong. Playing on 0 difficulty setting will not cut it IMO

[forest linden]

true

[tame valley]

Thanks for the suggestions. To be honest I would like it more challenging rather than balanced, but the vanilla slider on max was a bit much, or maybe I just messed up my character creation, or both. Like my one Fire Bite spell was 2 hitting almost everything, but I was dead in 1 hit from a small critter as well. I'll look into this HBFS. Does it collide with NCGDMW or do you recommend using them together?

[hoary trellis]

HBFS is fully compatible with NCGDMW. They can be used together or indepedently from each other.

Vanilla difficulty slider on 100 makes you take much more physical damage (about 5-6 times as much as on 0 IIRC) so it's no wonder that you died quickly

I wouldn't recommend playing on 100 right from the start unless you like that sort of gameplay

however, it's a good idea to increase difficulty later on as Morrowind gets much easier with time

HBFS allows you to tweak enemy's stats, magic damage and such, so you have more options. It also has difficulty presets

[tame valley]

Presets sounds great, I wouldn't like to tweak specific enemies or stats myself, that would feel like cheating :D

[hoary trellis]

it affects all enemies

[tame valley]

Alright, guess I'll have all these installed and vanilla difficulty in the middle (default), then I'll adjust later as I feel

[tame valley]

ah okay, nvm then

[hoary trellis]

HBFS also have level-scaling options btw

if that's your preference

NCGD+HBFS is a good combo

[tame valley]

hmm not sure how I feel about mobs scaling with me, it has drawbacks as well

[hoary trellis]

yes

it's all optional

you may also check out this mod - https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/54337 - for better merchant skills and this mod - https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/53698 - if you like to pay taxes in-game like I do

[tame valley]

lol

[hoary trellis]

😄

remember to pay your taxes, citizen

[tame valley]

now this is real hardcore gameplay :D

[forest linden]

it is

[hoary trellis]

if you want more, there is a mod which disables pausing in inventory menu

https://modding-openmw.gitlab.io/pause-control/

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/55064 use this for better enemy AI

[tame valley]

that also sounds great. I hated that in Skyrim and in Witcher 3 as well, I installed mods so I could only drink potions outside combat lol

in Witcher 3 I mean

[hoary trellis]

I get you

witchers didn't drink potions during combat in the lore

they did that before combat

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/55293 this teaches the enemies (and allies btw) to heal themselves

[tame valley]

back to the tax topic, that also makes you not wait after every encounter to max out magicka and fatigue, might be an actually good solution

[hoary trellis]

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/54976 this makes levitation less OP combat-wise

as you can see, there are many mods which you can use to tweak difficulty

[tame valley]

yeah, thank you for the suggestions

[forest linden]

@hoary trellis regarding HBFS, it has a core path, that you need, but do you need the 01 GMST and HBFS-GMST.omwaddon as well? or is the second optional?

[hoary trellis]

AFAIK all GMST-related things are optional @past pendant pinned here for confirmation

[forest linden]

thanks

[forest linden]

thanks, I just installed the core mod

[loud drum]

What settings do you guys suggest for someone who wants a very slow leveling experience, but not slow to the point where I feel I'm not making any progress at all?

I'd like to extend the mid game as far as I can. With how much content there is in the total overhaul list, I'd like to be able to experience most of it without stomping things

[swift hornet]

imo i think the thing mobs need in this game sometimes is cast speed, like it's easy to beat mobs under leveled by kiting well.

[hoary trellis]

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/43195?tab=description faster magic and projectiles available here

[swift hornet]

this does it for the mobs too?

[hoary trellis]

Yes, it works for everyone

[molten oyster]

the reason why thats he case is cause witcher potions are long lasting for wtchers. not all potions (none especially if you dont use cheesed self-made potions) in morrowind adhere to that rule.
youre putting at yourself at a disadvantage for no reason other than the enjoyment one gets off of cbt since witcher potion mechanics arent translaed well into morrowind as of yet (other than the toxicity feature)

[hoary trellis]

You can use potions in combat with Pause Control. The only change is no inventory pausing

[pseudo vapor]

typo in nexus description?

[agile valve]

hey I've gotten invested in a character that's made it to level 15 (wow the new Tamriel Rebuilt stuff is good) but I've just realized to my horror that spear is one of my minor skills, while restoration isn't... what's the cleanest way for me to fix that with this mod?

[forest linden]

no, if you want to respect, its possible, (using the console) but it will reset your skills and level. but no, its not possible to do that with this mod

[past pendant]

Not sure it's possible, but you could try to:

• take a screenshot of the stats menu (to get all skill values)
• use the "EnableClassMenu" command
• manually set all your skills as you wish with the console

[forest linden]

I think it will remove all the spells, if you have any spell bought.

not sure on anything else, as I haven't used it.

[past pendant]

Ah yes you're right

[forest linden]

its a total reset

[past pendant]

Then you'd have to re-add all your learned spells manually... A bit tedious

[forest linden]

agreed

on both accounts. not worth it

and of course you have to redo the skill levels of your skills and such, its a bit of a hassle.

[past pendant]

yeah, that's why I almost added a feature to restore your skills automatically, but NCGD doesn't know how the player would do it

[agile valve]

alas, cursed to spear - oh well, thanks!

[past pendant]

It's the skills that cannot go below half of the max value, not the attributes. But as attributes depend on skill values, this is also capped somehow

@atomic fulcrum

[atomic fulcrum]

Oh! I see!

Well, that's interesting 🙂

But I am otherwise correct, so let's say my Alchemy goes to 200, will it be minimum 100 from now on until the end of time? 😛

[past pendant]

it will never be lower, but can increase if you go above 200

[atomic fulcrum]

Great! Then I

will use it 😄

[past pendant]

Decay is a good feature if you like realistic behaviors

Using a slower skill gain can be an alternative

[forest linden]

I think its on slow for me, as it defaults to that on a TO install

[past pendant]

"slow" for attributres or skills?

[forest linden]

will check

[past pendant]

skill reductions now use a range that reduces exponentially, we don't use the word "slow" anymore

[forest linden]

slow under skill settings

[past pendant]

ah the decay!

slow, is very slow I think

but you should ask @hoary trellis , his more expert than me on using that feature

[hoary trellis]

I used Fast decay

at first decay is not noticeable at all. It becomes more impactful in mid- and late-game

you can reset skill decay with training

decayed skills also progress faster until they get "normal" values

it's all perfectly manageable

it's not a big deal if your skill decreases 1 or 2 points on lvl 40 or sth

[tame valley]

By the way, if I put HP gain per lvl to 0, do I gain no HP at all through the game, except using temporary spells and items? Also, what do you recommend for Skill Gain Factor for such a long playthrough? I'm clueless so any guess would be appreciated.

[hoary trellis]

No, you will gain HP but based on formula purely based on attributes. No level impact.

I'm not sure about skill gain factor but setting it low for high skills def sounds like a good idea.

Keep in mind that you can always use trainers as well. That costs money but it's fine. You are playing a long game here 😉

[tame valley]

Okay, then 0 gain per lvl makes sense.

[hoary trellis]

Yeah, I think that it increases difficulty a lot in the long run

[tame valley]

Yeah, right, trainers might be OP on their own, so probably I should lover the growth as well from default

[past pendant]

For Skill Gain Factor, the default 150 to 25 should be fine for a long playthrough

That setting is really important for long playthroughs

[tame valley]

actually it was 125 by default for me, I lowered it to 100 now, I'm not sure why it starts that high

[past pendant]

Because it eases the early game. As you start with some skills around 30, the reduction already applies on them. The idea of a value greater than 100 is to compensate the early reduction and make skills grow "normally"

[tame valley]

ah I see, also now I realized there is also decay

[past pendant]

There is a test input below the setting value useful to know how much reduction you get for a given skill level

[hoary trellis]

For such a long playthrough 100% instead of 125% may be right

[tame valley]

so maybe it's also to prevent early decay

[hoary trellis]

Skills at very low lvls never decay

[past pendant]

Early game will feel tedious. You know it's that part where you fail all your skills 😉

[hoary trellis]

100% is pretty much Vanilla for skills at low lvls, right?

So you know what to expect

Then it gets harder

Vanilla + TR is long as fuck

With other content mods it's even longer

Many players enjoy the early game struggles btw

So it all depends

[past pendant]

It's not. As I said it would be true for skills level 1... But you start with skills up to 30-45 and they already partially get the reduction defined by the second value

[tame valley]

yeah, so having the first value high basically just makes it easier for minor skills or skills not even chosen on chargen to catch up to the main skills, but it's exponential, so everything slows down really fast

[past pendant]

Yes and it makes so major skills are not harder to increase than with an unmodded game

[hoary trellis]

Some may want it harder, though 😅

[tame valley]

Anyway, I've also installed HBFS and all your other mods, @past pendant, thanks for making these. I've set a slow scaling on hard preset for now, hope it will help with my base game + TR playthrough.

I think these were the defaults as well.

[pseudo vapor]

Here's one more typo

[past pendant]

Thx. That one is for you @dawn spindle 😁

[sharp sorrel]

wow thats incredible for a lua ui

how did the mbsp compatibility go?

[past pendant]

That's not NCGD interface

[atomic fulcrum]

May I ask, have the starting values been rebalanced by something in the Vanilla Extended mod back, and if so--is it based on the NCGDMW? 🙂 I notice my starting luck is 30 instead of 40, for example, and when I bring up the skills menu, it lists some of the starting values as having been negative. In this context, luck is 0, so it has gained +30 🙂

[atomic fulcrum]

Oh! It's another mod 🙂

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 4.2 released!

• Fixed Starwind descriptions missing the new attribute impact info
• Fixed skill descriptions using title case for attribute names (vanilla descriptions use lowercase)
• Fixed death counter generating an error for midgame updates
• Added a setting to change the stats menu width

[noble phoenix]

Do these starting attributes look normal? I am on Total Overhaul. It felt weird to start with 60 strength as a Breton and my tagged attributes are Int and Agility

also, will skill ups increase my health or only level ups?

[past pendant]

your "start values ratio" is 1/2, meaning that half of your starting attributes is grown by your skill values

and you have multiple strength-based skills with high values

[noble phoenix]

Ahh, okay. I understand. You don't think that's too much to start with, do you? I usually do long plays and end up fighting power creep.

[past pendant]

it's pretty high indeed

you can try to change the "start values ratio" and pick the value that produce the best starting attributes

it's safe to change it midgame

with "Full", you'll get your chargen attribute values

and they will grow only with new skill increases

[noble phoenix]

it doesn't really change them much, at Full I'm down to 56 strength. Still seems pretty high for a level 1 boy. Would it change anything to have these settings this way then roll a new character?

[dawn spindle]

Simply put, you can choose how much your attributes are determined by race/birthsign vs. major/minor skills right here in the options.

[dawn spindle]

This is new territory for me, as I tend to always play with this set to None, so character design is more impactful.

[noble phoenix]

I'll try rerolling and seeing if I have more reasonable attributes by that. I suppose it won't be a real issue, I'm playing on max diff and can always reduce my skills and stats later.

[past pendant]

With Full, you get the values from your race + a few increases from the skills you already leveled up.

[dawn spindle]

If you like difficulty enhancement, please see: https://discord.com/channels/260439894298460160/1314853522520539188

...and the rest of mym's suite of excellent mods

[noble phoenix]

I'll probably check it out, but I avoid adding anything to these modlists. I'm simply unlucky/not great with umo and modding so I end up borking everything when I do lol

[dawn spindle]

You can act more freely with LUA mods, without consequence

[noble phoenix]

When I made a new character with Full at start, and no changes to the class, he started with 40 strength. I definitely didn't up any skills enough to get the extra 16 on that other pc

[dawn spindle]

In particular, this body of mods should not mess you up. They're just affecting NPC behavior in immersive ways, using a layer that the geniuses of OpenMW have abstracted far, far away from the worries we had about updating mods mid-playthrough all through the Morrowind.exe years. LUA gameplays mods have been 💯 good to go for me midstream or no

[noble phoenix]

I think I'm also worrying too much about the stats, tbh.

[dawn spindle]

Just go into the options, tweak them, and see what it does to your character. Should update your character sheet every time you close the options menu.

Tweak it until you like it

[noble phoenix]

I need to learn more, I've just been... nervous lol I have bad luck with tech/prgorgams and people will help me and be like "i have no idea why this is happening" lol

[dawn spindle]

I fear that am not free to engage further at this time, for the hour draws late. Please allow me to leave you with my fondest regards in exchange for my leave. 🙇‍♂️

[past pendant]

That's weird. I'm sorry but I'll say "I have no idea why this is happening" 😄
But if you still have a game save with this char please upload it here so I can understand

[forest linden]

@noble phoenix which modlist are you using? as there is a race respec mod, that rebalances races, I can't remember which modlists inclue this, but the TO certainly does, might that be it?

otherwise, I'm not sure what else it could be

[noble phoenix]

I can send you the save, do you know where OpenMW keeps them? I ended up reinstalling my list to ensure everything was correct and made a new character. Their stats on chargen with 1/2 seem more reasonable now

[noble phoenix]

I am definitely using TO, but at least as far as I thought, my other stats were way too all over the place for a level 1 breton. Like 80 int almost and 60 strength

[past pendant]

If you're on windows I don't know, I'm sure @forest linden knows where game saves are saved 🙂

[past pendant]

ah perfect

[noble phoenix]

here is the most recent save from that character

they are in the documents OpenMW folder fyi

[past pendant]

will check as soon as possible

[noble phoenix]

No rush, thank you for the assist! I was literally so early on I started a new pc after freshly installing today just to have it easier. plus, I'm not great at updating mods so I figured it would be easier to just redo the list now before I have too many issues lol

[forest linden]

this is what I get when I load the above save, also I checked the race respec mod, the author doesn't touch the breton Attribute wise

I dont have birthsign respec mod, installed.

not sure what other mod effecrs stats this way, but there clearly something, another mod that is responsible? something that is package with TO?

[past pendant]

Indeed, NCGD detects modifications to most attributes, which means that @noble phoenix 's mod setup has a generous race mod

[past pendant]

When you load his save, OpenMW tells you which mods you lack for that game save, you can copy the list to the clipboard and search for a race mod

[noble phoenix]

Oh, I thought I had also replied to you but I don't see it. I'm definitely on Total Overhaul and there certainly are mods affecting character race and the like. I haven't delved into it but I'm sure those are having an affect as well.

When I played last (a few months ago) my character started with roughly 30 strength. Same modlist and same build/race

I know there's also a setting in the scripts somewhere to change how race affects speed but I can't remember where. I'm sure there's other things

[forest linden]

Dagoth Ur Voice Addon.esp
BirthsignsRESPECted.esp
pharis-magicka-regeneration.omwaddon
pharis-magicka-regeneration.omwscripts

[stray crag]

Hey looking for a simpler answer, still not sure how math exactly works here vs vanilla leveling: how viable is it to use a character use weapons that are not his minor or major skills with this

[forest linden]

you can use any weapon, you like, skills in the misc section level up a lot slower then those in the major / minor, but that shouldn't stop you from using a weapon you don't have a major or minor.

it will level up slower

but if you want to increase the gain for misc skills you can

this mod is very customisable

[stray crag]

Whats the default setting for skills, 100/100/60?

[forest linden]

100/100/50 I think

but each skill can be adjust as well

[stray crag]

Ah so making it 100/100/80 itll be slightly faster for minor skills

[forest linden]

yes

but if you go right down, the settings page, you will see each skill, there you can fine tune how fast or slow they level

so you can do lot of fine tuning

especailly increase tricky ones like sneak and enchant

100/100/80, that will effect misc skills, not minor, as they are still on 100 with that example

have to go for a bit, back later

[noble phoenix]

Was it changed recently that now misc skills no longer level you up? Or am I making that up entirely? I could've sworn I was leveling on ever skill increase. My last character was level 48 and had no major skills even close to 100

[forest linden]

it was changed, misc skills dont give you char levels, only major and minor

[nova moth]

An option to keep that behavior would be nice if feasible(if people want less class restrictive leveling like Skyrim I guess)

[noble phoenix]

Okay, I thought so. I definitely would prefer it that way, even if misc skills level gain is cranked waaaaaaay done. I'll still end up leveling minors, for attributes. But it'll feel like less of an investment and will make me more likely to only train with money for added attributes. But, I imagine this will assist with the eventual power build up, if I'm leveling from fewer sources then it won't be as broken as quickly. I'll give it a chance before my final decision lol

[forest linden]

Something I just noticed, when I use the N key to see the stats, it no longer seems to show how many attributes, have been increased, pretty sure the older versions had something like speed x2, willpower x2 if those attributes have been increased. fairly sure that info was under luck, it would be nice to have that info,

unless there was a reason why that was removed?

maybe have it besides the message log, have the time closer to the messages and put the attribute increase info besides that?

[past pendant]

It never had been shown. Attributes stats are current, start, growth, and mod

What you want is a part of growth

But we already have many columns

[forest linden]

I just thought this version had it as well as some point, but maybe mistaken

[forest linden]

guess I was mistaken, nevermind

[past pendant]

I just had 3 reports on Nexus of characters stuck at level 1, even after increasing more than 10 times a major skill.
I'm unable to reproduce that bug. Has anyone here recently started a new game with a recent version of NCGD?

[fiery oak]

[16:42:04.052 E] L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] onFrame failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/skills.lua"]:51: attempt to perform arithmetic on a nil value
[16:42:04.052 E] stack traceback:
[16:42:04.052 E]     [string "scripts/ncgdmw/skills.lua"]:51: in function 'setSkillGrowths'
[16:42:04.052 E]     [string "scripts/ncgdmw/skills.lua"]:102: in function 'updateSkills'
[16:42:04.052 E]     [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:187: in function 'updateGrowth'
[16:42:04.052 E]     [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:298: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:293>
[16:42:04.052 E]     [C]: in ?

I'm getting these stack traces when I reloadlua in my starwind tests just now, not sure if related

Also this one:

[16:42:06.869 E] L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] onFrame failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/decay.lua"]:90: attempt to compare number with nil
[16:42:06.869 E] stack traceback:
[16:42:06.869 E]     [string "scripts/ncgdmw/decay.lua"]:90: in function 'updateDecay'
[16:42:06.869 E]     [string "scripts/ncgdmw/decay.lua"]:132: in function 'onFrame'
[16:42:06.869 E]     [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:300: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:293>
[16:42:06.869 E]     [C]: in ?

[noble phoenix]

I installed my list a couple days ago and have started a new pc. So far nothing like that has happened to me. We did speak about those weird chargen stats I was having, but after your mod updated and I reinstalled the list, and made a new pc, the stats appeared to look more what you might expect. I'm currently level 2 with 50% prog to next level. If there's anything I can try to assist you lemme know.

[past pendant]

you you send me a game save?

[fiery oak]

I can make a save if you need me to but I literally don't have one, I'm just running a brand-new install of starwind-modded

off beta

[past pendant]

oh

with the last version of NCGD?

[fiery oak]

yea I rolled this install like a day or two ago

[past pendant]

I finally decided to install starwind-modded to test NCGD on it

[past pendant]

NCGDMW v4.2.1 released!

• Fixed too early NCGDMW initialization during normal chargen (Morrowind and Starwind)

[past pendant]

If you have the occasion to test again with v4.2.1, please keep me informed

[fiery oak]

yea man I'm working on the list rn

I gotchu

[stray crag]

is there a version of this that doesnt reset your stats on enableracmenu?

[past pendant]

it's openmw which resets your stats.

[hoary trellis]

So you found the source of the bug?

[past pendant]

I'm unsure, but what I fixed could cause unexpected results

I realized that with a normal chargen, the profile was initialized multiple times. That's not supposed to break things, but we never know

I did all my recent tests with OpenMW's test mode and a Quick Chargen mod, but the vanilla chargen has specificities I forget to test again

it's quite tedious to test every feature in every scenario each time to change something that could impact other features

NCGDMW now has a LOT of features and a lot of settings, which makes testing a bit hard

[stray crag]

Is there a way or mod to change this? I dont want to wipe yet another character

[stray crag]

so basicly we cant reedit appereance in openmw?

without losing stats i mean

[past pendant]

sorry but it's not really possible currently, with NCGD at least

something could be done maybe to make it possible: Save stats before the special menus and then restore the stats

[noble phoenix]

@past pendant apologies for the random ping, but I was just wondering if you think these attributes look correct? I'm just testing out stuff and curious.

[past pendant]

perfectly fine

[noble phoenix]

Awesome, thank you!

[stray crag]

can I slow these down midgame? for some reason some of my stats jump much higher if i change back to 100

[stray crag]

so with gentler racemenu, im not getting spells and stats wiped

but after reset, i get same stats back

but then whatever I grew, gets added on top

[forest linden]

Ok, I'm noticing a strange thing with the sneak skill, or should I say the stat on the main stats page, which has your character, every time I use sneak, the stat usually turns green, and can jump widly from a small increase from base, or to a pretty large increase from base. base value is 65, I seen it go as high as 80 once. when I enable sneak. as soon as I disable sneak, the value generally reverts back to 65. I am not wearing anything that can effect sneak. So not sure what is wrong.

dont think I have seen this happen before, but thought I would report it.

[jolly raven]

Sneak Step Drain from Solthas' Combat Pack

[thin mortar]

do you by chance have sol's combat pack? could be the sneak step drain feature

[forest linden]

will check, probably do

yes that is it,

confirmed, it was that

so not a bug

thanks

I wondered what it could have been

[stray crag]

temp fix for gentler menu, at least for custom races

#1369732825661837475 message

[charred geyser]

clavernever

Attachment(s)

data.lua
func.lua

Linked by @​ninjaklan from #Mod request: Racemenu without skill reset · May 8, 2025, 3:08 AM

[stray crag]

the problem of additive double growth hoever still persists on attributes

but one can manually reduce those

[stray crag]

any idea about this @past pendant ? if i reduce these back to 100%, my skills actually increase

[past pendant]

Changing your attributes should not have any impact on skills

Did you try the NCGD's reset procedure?

[stray crag]

hm whats that

[past pendant]

Search "reset" in the doc

[stray crag]

got it boss

sorry, im confused, these are obvious steps of course

[past pendant]

I meant NCGD's reset procedure

After the race menu

[sharp sorrel]

how would these works together with NCGD?
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/56523
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/56524

one surveils the fortify health buffs, and modifies the max hp according to the delta it observes (it modifies max hp like +x hp when a fortify health buff is applied, and -x hp when it runs out)

the other writes to the modifier property of skills and attributes

according to buffs getting applied/running out it observes

if NCGD forces a certain max health value, regardless of what it was before, that would break the fortify health mod

[hoary trellis]

interesting mods

[stray crag]

My bad

[noble phoenix]

I was thinking of turning on the magicka refunding thing, but wasn't sure if it would be too OP or anything. Would love any info from anyone who has used it. I do have pharris' magicka regen but it's set decently low at like .06 I think

[hoary trellis]

I've never used this. I don't think it's necessary to make spells cheaper. Magic is powerful enough as it is.

[noble phoenix]

That's where my mind is at. I like the idea but feel like it would only make me more op

[void roost]

It refund/return some Magicka from successful casted spells.
On refund skill start at 1 and Magicka Refund Multiplier set to 5 it allows me to comfortable use some spells on non-magic-oriented character (if successes), hybrid gameplay is very nice with mage birthsign.
If want to play as Berton/Altmer with aperience or atronach birthsign, it can be op and allow to spam spells like there is no tommorow

[jolly raven]

@past pendant Not sure if you know about this already, apparently NCGDMW is now incompatible with Quicktrain

[past pendant]

Thx for the notice.
I realize than now we handle the skill increases from training, I forgot to manually play the skill raise sound.
Easy to add it, but I don't get the renaming to "Skill Raise" issue

[jolly raven]

@modest thorn Hey, could you please elaborate on the Quicktrain/NCGDMW issue?

[past pendant]

with or without the sound playing, the log note gets updated and I can see the trainer logged

[jolly raven]

I think the issue might be that the training dialogue window doesn't open itself again after training?

[past pendant]

indeed it doesn't. With or without the raise sound playing

[past pendant]

Even if I disable NCGD's training handling, the training window doesn't automatically reopen

I checked Quick Train's code, but I don't get how its code could work

local delay1 = 0.1
local delay2 = 0.5
local function UiModeChanged(data)
    local newMode = data.newMode
    local arg = data.arg
    if newMode == "Training" then
        async:newUnsavableSimulationTimer(delay1, function()
            local soundPlaying = ambient.isSoundPlaying("skillraise")
            if soundPlaying then
                async:newUnsavableSimulationTimer(delay2, function()
                    local soundPlaying = ambient.isSoundPlaying("skillraise")
                    if not I.UI.getMode() and soundPlaying then
                        I.UI.setMode("Training", { target = arg })
                    end
                end)
            end
        end)
    end
end

when the training window opens, there is no sound playing, thus "soundPlaying" is always false

[jolly raven]

@blissful ingot Could you help here, please?

[past pendant]

It works this way:

local delay1 = 0.1
local delay2 = 0.5
local prevTarget
local function UiModeChanged(data)
    if data.newMode == "Training" then
        prevTarget = data.arg
    elseif data.oldMode == "Training" then
        async:newUnsavableSimulationTimer(delay1, function()
            local soundPlaying = ambient.isSoundPlaying("skillraise")
            if soundPlaying then
                async:newUnsavableSimulationTimer(delay2, function()
                    local soundPlaying = ambient.isSoundPlaying("skillraise")
                    if not I.UI.getMode() and soundPlaying then
                        I.UI.setMode("Training", { target = prevTarget })
                    end
                end)
            end
        end)
    end
end

NCGDMW 4.2.2 released!

• Fixed missing skill raise sound during training

[modest thorn]

Sounds like the issue was resolved, but the training UI would not re-open if there is no sound.

[blissful ingot]

It uses the sound from the training to detect if it needs to be re opened

I did just replace the training UI as well

[past pendant]

yeah but it tries to detect the sound when the UI opens, while the sound is played when the training window closes

[blissful ingot]

No it doesn't

it checks if data.oldMode == "Training"

[past pendant]

I only see the newMode check

[blissful ingot]

local function UiModeChanged(data)
    if data.newMode == "Training" then--this checks if the training window is opening, and saves the target so it can be reopened later
        prevTarget = data.arg
    elseif data.oldMode == "Training" then--if the training window is closing, we start a timer
        async:newUnsavableSimulationTimer(delay1, function()--The timer waits a second or so, and checks if the skillraise sound is playing, if it is then we reopen the training window
            local soundPlaying = ambient.isSoundPlaying("skillraise")
            if soundPlaying then
                async:newUnsavableSimulationTimer(delay2, function()
                    local soundPlaying = ambient.isSoundPlaying("skillraise")
                    if not I.UI.getMode() and soundPlaying then
                        I.UI.setMode("Training", { target = prevTarget })
                    end
                end)
            end
        end)
    end
end

[past pendant]

that's my fix on your code 😅

[modest thorn]

IDK what UI logic changed but it works in 4.1

[blissful ingot]

Oh, right. It does a timer that only runs after the menu closes

Though it wouldn’t work right if the game was unpaused somehow for the window

[past pendant]

Ah yes, probably because I use pause control

[past pendant]

Maybe you could use my code so Quick Train works with mods that unpause the training menu

I did not test my code without Pause Control though

[late granite]

Is this mod compatible with vanilla quests that alter attributes?

Ex: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Recovering_Cloudcleaver

[past pendant]

Yes it is. Changes to attributes are detected and preserved. You can see them in NCGD's stats menu, under the Mod column

[void roost]

How NCGDMW lua Edition works right now?
Some time ago we talk about leveling based on top10 skillf from all not only Majon/Minor but Misc should also increase level when is higher than Major/Misc skills.
For test i set exp from running to 999 and reach 150 Athletics but level progress stay at 0%

Only Major and Minor skills are counted to level like vanilla?

[past pendant]

Yes only major and minor

We decided to tend towards "chargen choices matter"

[fierce terrace]

Love how the mod is now. I remember using it before, it always felt like I was getting too powerful too quickly. With my current settings it feels more like I'm getting "average" levelups which feels a lot better.

Less of a pain in the ass, automated, but not OP

[forest linden]

its more rewarding that is for sure. a lot slower, but every level means something

[past pendant]

I always preferred MW during early games, that's why I added the exponential skill gain reduction in NCGDMW: To stay weak as long as possible 🙂

[fathom dew]

I like slower leveling. It's not like you have to worry about running out of quests or places to explore these days 😁

[gloomy meteor]

hey, I'm pretty sure this may be a stupid question but this mod is probably not mid-savefile compatible right? 😅 (wish I could search in threads on discord)

[past pendant]

It is! Your attributes will be reset based on your skills

[gloomy meteor]

:ooo ohhh thank you!!

[past pendant]

But you'll lose any exceptional attribute bonus, like the +2 strength given by the naked Nord quest

You can add them though, after you load your game save with NCGD enabled, using console commands, I you remember them

[gloomy meteor]

that's fine for me, thank you!

[past pendant]

Hey guys, I'm working on a consequent update that scales some skill gains based on their success chance.
The goal is to reward the use of complex skills, and refrain the player from farming XP with too easy skills.

MBSP will be replaced by this new feature.

And now I'd like to remove the magicka refund feature, because:

• magic is already very powerful
• it only adds benefits, without counterparts
• it's almost equivalent to a spell cost balance mod

Does any of you have any solid argument against its removal?

[void roost]

I'm using it because allows for more mage-only build on non magic races like Berton or Altmer where player have less Magicka - spell cost some Magicka so you need this amount to cast, if failed then you lost Magicka, if success you get some refund for eg. Another cheaper spell.

It's more balanced than sone Magicka regeneration per secounds

This mechanic makes me to use weaker spells with higher cast chance in combat when I need to really cast then and thx to refund I can play more a spell caster than weak staff fighter

But with mechanic what makes leveling magic skills easier above default 10 Magicka cost make me tomtry practice magic in cities where I don't need a high success chance but a refund allows me to practice more if I get success spell

[past pendant]

thx for explaining, I will preserve that feature then

[void roost]

You know... It's your modification, you can do with this whatever you want.

Maybe you can make a separate mod with Magicka refund mechanic, because you are right - Magicka refund isn't something what influence on character leveling in direct way

[past pendant]

that is true, but now players are used to find that feature in NCGDMW. And creating a new mod is fastidious 🙂

[forest linden]

I dont think I have that enabled, so as an option, it worth keeping, not sure its worth making another mod for

but again, its your mod mym, do what you think is right

[past pendant]

I don't mod for me only 😉
And it's also @shut wedge's mod 🙂

[worthy kindle]

Magic isn't powerful, it's simply another avenue you can use to solve problems. It's also not one thing, it's a multitude of other skills, and each of the skills gain power without interferring with the others, they simply aren't connected, except that all the magic skills draw from the same limited pool of magicka. The benefit to using an open spell is the same benefit to purchasing a master probe from Hlaalu mansion in Balmora, except failing an open costs you very little, whereas not only do you lose the time of casting, which is slower than almost all other actions in the game, you also lose the magicka of the spell without earning it back. The magicka refund takes that sting and makes it a little less punishing. On a lore level, it doesn't make sense that failing to cast a spell should use all the magicka of a success in the first place, When you miss with a swung weapon, it still took you energy to move it, thus the fatigue loss. However, it's not like you're misfiring the spell, you simply aren't casting it on a fail. In summary, refunding magicka evens out the magic experience by taking the sting of losing both magicka and time, which realisticly will only cause people to save scum, for characters when they are weaker, without any undue benefits being conferred when a character has a high enough level where their spell casts all have a high chance, and is lore friendly to magicka in the Elder Scrolls.

The Magicka refund is suprisingly well balanced, great design actually, since it balances a weaker character without conferring any strength to an already strong character.

[past pendant]

That is well presented. It makes sense.
The only part we could debate on is the lost magicka when failing a spell: We can easily justify it, like you pick some of your magicka to initiate the spell, and then you fail with the spelling or gesture or concentration...

[forest linden]

yeah, well thought out that

[fierce terrace]

I agree that magic simply is not as powerful as people seem to think. Destruction and Conjuration are far less reliable and powerful offenses compared with hitting enemies with your own weapons beyond the very early stages of the game. Enchantments are better than self-casting in virtually all scenarios because they do outright regenerate and can be cast much more quickly. On top of that any decent fighter will simply be casting offensive spells alongside every single swing of their weapon via enchantment.

The only thing is that Chameleon + Telekinesis are way better for stealth than Sneak, but that's more because Sneak is broken.

I play with a magicka regen mod and this mod's refund on my Argonian mage with a modded Apprentice birthsign that gives just +1.0x Magicka per Intelligence in exchange for a less potent downside, and it's felt great. Balanced just right. I still end up relying on my backup shortsword anyways due to all the spell reflect throughout the upper enemy tiers.

Oh, and a mod that disables enchantments from regenerating

Vanilla self-cast magic needs a lot of help imo

[worthy kindle]

I think losing a small percentage of the spell cast on fail makes sense, but again, magicka is the divine energy of Magnus. If you fail to cast a spell that would have sent a 50 foot fireball out, and nothing misfires or changes in the environment on a cast fail, I think that lore wise, it makes sense that you only burnt a little magicka to fail. Like how if you light a match to light a bonfire, and the match goes out, the bonfire can still be lit at a different time. Is it a little ridiculous to apply the laws of thermodynamics to TES's magick system? Yes, but I think it's satisfying when there's parity between what we see and what we expect. Ergo, a cast fail should lose I think only 10-20% of the magicka that would be expended on a successful cast.

[nova moth]

If we're thinking about lore then failing a spell should have self destructive consequences

[void roost]

Maybe this is idea! No a refund for success spell casting but a percentage reduction e.g. 80% of cost if spell failed.
In vanilla if you have Mana for 5 fireballs you can cast or fail 5 times.
No in NCGDMW with refund if you have Mana for 5 fireballs and cast them 5 times, you propably have enough to cast the next one

If make that cast fail drain only % of Mana need for cast fireball then you could still cast 5 fireballs like in vanilla

Extra Magicka for success vs less lost Magicka on fail

Nice will be to see both in NCGDMW

[past pendant]

That could be done indeed. I've already done spell failure detection in Fair Care.

[dawn spindle]

Well, I've put some thought into it, and my design would be thus:

* discounts starting at 50 skill level (not sure how this best works with multi-school spells)
* looking something like:
** 50 skill - 1mp discount
** 60 skill - 2mp discount
** 70 skill - 3mp discount
** 80 skill - 5mp discount
** 90 skill - 8mp discount
** 100 skill - 13mp discount (fibonacci!)
** etc.```
The spell refund is just more OP gravy from original MBSP, so reining it in would be a good thing. It fits with the trend of balance mods toward lengthening the early- and mid-game.

I do like the idea of a caster having "free" spells after refund, as long as we are talking just cantrips to start

Failures always cost full MP

[dawn spindle]

Is this to say that a spell with a lower success chance would give more experience?

[dawn spindle]

Also that someone at 120+ in a spell skill should be able to fling around some pretty hefty spells for jollies

Just one man's take. I would welcome any feedback, questions, or especially apocalyptic critiques

The fibonacci thing is just a vanity. Somewhere between linear and exponential seems apt.

[oak herald]

hi - would it be possible to have an option for making magicka work more like health instead of directly tied to intelligence?

like you gain more on level up based on your stats

[signal hound]

Hi. So far, love the ease this mod provides.
Question: Playing on Steam Deck, I’m having trouble seeing the full stats menu for NCGDMW. NCGDMW allows width adjustments but not height. Any suggestions to make this work?

[past pendant]

That's an interesting idea. I think that it would ease the game too much though.

[past pendant]

For height the only option is to disable the message logs

[void roost]

Hi @past pendant I have little request for your mod.
NCGDMW allows to train up to 1000 speed and athletics.
I know, there is possibility to cap separate attributes and skills but i would like to not blocking theses.

A few days ago a modification appeared that removes the influence of load on movement speed and jump height: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/56642

I've been thinking about the possibility of "locking" movement speed and jump height to a certain level for a while now, so that regardless of the speed attribute, athletics skill, the maximum speed cannot be greater than X.

This would allow you to run and jump at the desired maximum without worrying about further skill/attribute development.

This modification could have an optional disablement of the influence of load on speed, as in the above mod. The "Burden" effect, which adds load, should affect the player anyway.

I'm asking you because your mod allows to increase movement speed and jump height to abnormal values - probably it will be very hard but imo even 100 speed and athletics looking weird and 100 acrobatics make me "DON'T TOUCH JUMP KEY!"

Functionally is good - faster player so shorter travel time, higher acrobatics so higher jump height but sometimes, more for immersion, I and probably few other "specific" peoples would limit theses.

Option for disable influence encumbered to movement speed and jump height would be nice if encumbered would be calculated based on modified movement speed and jump height not from statistics - with 200 STR SPD ATH and ACR, even with 999/1000 of weight would be faster than limited max speed at 100.

[fiery oak]

I think you should be able to accomplish this by scaling the speed of the various movement animations.

[void roost]

Settings could look like:

RUN SPEED LIMITER
Acrobatics: ... (default: empty - if possible)
Strength: ...
Athletics: ...
Speed: ...
Unencumbered : Yes/No (default: no)

And player who set eg. 80/60/no would have movement speed and jump height like he have 80 athletics, 60 speed and 0 load. But still if overencumbered will be unable to moving.

Maybe it could be made with easier than settings above - 3 options for max movement speed, max jump height and "Unencumbered".

[past pendant]

I'm not sure we can limit the movement speed and jump height without limiting the related attributes and skills.
Maybe with animation tricks as @fiery oak suggests, but I'm not really skilled with animations.

[fiery oak]

local animation = require 'openmw.animation'
local gameSelf = require 'openmw.self'

local RATE = 0.5

I.AnimationController.addTextKeyHandler('', function(group, key)
  if not group:find('walk') or not group:find('run') then return end
  animation.setSpeed(gameSelf, group, RATE)
end)

Somethin' like that.

This is a bit aggressive as it would take over in all circumstances, sometimes in an invalid way, like when levitate is overriding native movement speed

But think should work for start

You straight up cannot manipulate the direct movement speed or jump height, no way. Part of how the internal character controller can do this is by graditating between zero and nonzero values of self.controls.movement, that can be handy too but more likely to be difficult to manage/breaking

But also gradiating between zero and nonzero values instead of just using 1 I think is basically also just scaling the animation speed, so

[void roost]

@past pendant sorry for next ping but I need your help
Shields Up mod which allows manual shield control working on block skill reduction to 0 when shield isn't rise but when rised, weapons skills and speed are reduced by %.
But after restoration e.g temple/shrine I got additional skills levels equal to reduced value.
Even after turned off Shields Up and/or NCGDMW after using restoration values are higher than should.
I.NCGDMW.ResetStats() didn't help.

Any idea?

Ok, evermind - i used player->setspeed etc to set values to levels which are in Stat Menu

Thx for your help because i found this in readme of your mod

[boreal dome]

is there a command for adjusting my character level for this mod? player->setlevel X doesn't seem to be working as expected
Edit: Nvm, no longer needed. Just wanted to check what my max health would look like at higher levels. I found another way.

[hallow sentinel]

Can I ask questions about the ultimate levelling version of this mod here, or this is specific to only the original

[forest linden]

that has its own channel now

[spark pawn]

#1364092089209454653

[forest linden]

thanks, I was looking for it

got beaten

[daring flax]

i'm confused about what the point of the progressive training duration option is?

[spark pawn]

I think the idea is to simulate the longer times needed to advance skills at higher levels and to also justify the higher training costs

[daring flax]

but why?

[spark pawn]

It's just an option. You don't have to enable it if you don't like it.

[past pendant]

Paired with the decay option it adds a challenge

[scarlet depot]

Hey my friend, I forgot, or perhaps I misunderstood, but is there some potential for conflict with mods such as RUN! or Shields Up? Thank you as always

[past pendant]

There is a conflict report here for Shields Up. I could not test yet

For Run I don't know. I suppose @shut wedge knows

[scarlet depot]

Okay I'll see if I can find that conflict and test it

Ty

[scarlet depot]

It appears that the restoration problem has been fixed in the most recent update from today

[void roost]

Yup
It was Shields Up mod problem

[shut wedge]

Hey zsouza13 - did you find some issue? RUN! uses fortifications for the speed buff so it should be compatible with NCGD.

[scarlet depot]

Hello brother, no I didn't encounter any issues. I misread or heard about some possible conflict but I conflated it with another mod haha. I was going to test and see if I can replicate haha

[shut wedge]

Cool cool, thanks for following up 🙂

[timid sleet]

For some reason I can level up and my skills can increase but my attributes never increase. Even if I train a skill for 20 or 30 levels. I tried increasing the growth rate to Fast as well.

[past pendant]

Do you have any error in the log viewer? (F10)

[timid sleet]

I looked in there earlier and didn't see anything that appeared to correspond to NCGD lua. I've since changed to NCGD Ultimate leveling and that appears to work perfectly.

[south furnace]

does the 'state based hp' setting mean that if you fortify (or damage) endurance (or strength, or willpower), your maximum hp will change to match that?

[past pendant]

Exactly

[south furnace]

oh that's exactly what I was looking for, nice

[past pendant]

Hey guys, with @hoary trellis we designed a new feature to scale the skill uses, in the same vein of the mod Skill Uses Scaled, but with different mechanics.

It affects magicka skills, weapon skills (except marksman), armor skills, security (unlock and disarm), athletics and acrobatics (jump and fall).

It's an important update that directly affects the character progression balance and we would love to get feedback on it.

Here is the current beta, already well tested.
To ease the tests, I added a debug (ugly) notification system that can be enabled in the new "SKILL USES SCALED SETTINGS" section, please try it to see in real time the gains based on your performance, the risk or the success chance.

Here is the draft changelog:

• New skill progression scaling approaches based on: Skill success's chance, action's danger, action's performance (on by default, concepts designed with @hoary trellis)
• Those approaches were inspired by @Grey's wonderful mod "Skill Uses Scaled", but differ in their mechanics, check the settings page for more details
• Replaced Magicka Based Skill Progression approach with a success chance-based approach
• Security's unlocking and disarming gains now based on a success chance-based approach
• Weapon skill gains now based on a success chance-based approach
• Armor skill gains now based on a risk-based approach
• Acrobatics' jump and fall gains now based on a risk and a performance-based approaches
• Athletics gains now based on a performance-based approach
• Restored default acrobatics gain (0.15) for jumps
• Restored default enchant gain (0.0) for cast on strike uses

@scarlet depot @forest linden @swift hornet @dawn spindle @shut wedge

[hoary trellis]

Congrats on this important update @past pendant . It was a lot of work, but the new systems serve as a natural improvement over Vanilla's static scaling and the min-max % gains are customisable. It can also be turned off for each skill type so it should be fun for everyone as Vanilla version is still there. It always bothered me that fighting rats gave same weapon and armor skill increases per hit as fighting skeleton champions, spam jumping in one place gave same skill increases as reaching high places or jumping over deep holes, casting 5% chance spells gave same skill increases as casting 80% chance spells, wall running was as good as a marathon, unlocking lvl 10 lock was as good as unlocking lvl 100 lock etc. It should now be far more dynamic. IMO a perfect fit for that "N" in the mod's name.

[scarlet depot]

Thank you, Mym. I appreciate the hard work both you and Cybvep have put into this beta. I will start a new character today and begin testing right away. Is there anything in particular that you would like me to pay attention to? Thank you

[past pendant]

Thx! For all the affected skills, with the debug notifications on, just a feedback on whether the gain seems coherent to the skill use

[hoary trellis]

Make notes if there is no skill progress at all

And if you encounter sth like this, press F10 for debug console and copy the report about the skill

[void roost]

very nice - must to check this!

Any ETA when you change magicka refund for success casting to % lowering magicka lost if casting fail?
Previously i said that refund allows me to play more as mage but with higher exp for success if cast chance is low, lowering fail cast cost will work better and in summary if 100% success the amout of casted spells will be these same like in vanilla.

It's possible to add option to reduce spells magicka cost related to related magic school skill level?

[rare stone]

I'm not sure I like magic XP scaling on success chance, seems like it has the potential to make leveling very slow at the high end when you don't really have an organic need to make more powerful spells that you have a substantial chance of failing to cast

[past pendant]

I get your questioning. We could see that like: If you only need easy to cast spells, why would you need to progress in that school?

[hoary trellis]

You can turn it off for magic skills if you want

[rare stone]

To continue leveling up and getting stats? This is ultimately still an RPG

[past pendant]

I forgot about that feature. I don't know yet if and when I'll do it.
Right now I'm more on fixing bugs (NCGD and other mods), but I'll note that idea to keep it in mind

[rare stone]

Also getting more XP for doing low-chance things puts you in a weird state where you get more XP for doing stuff while you're drained of fatigue which seems odd to me

[rare stone]

Sure, but I'm losing the magicka-cost based XP scaling (which I very much like and use) for this

[hoary trellis]

Fatigue is not included in the formula

[rare stone]

Fair enough

[past pendant]

the magicka-cost approach is unfair for non-mage profiles: They get low XP just because they cannot cast costly spells

it's like a double penality: low chances and low gain

[scarlet depot]

Will do, thank you

[scarlet depot]

Sounds great and thank you

[rare stone]

The only thing I actually want out of it is getting more XP for beefier spells so that you're not missing on XP by casting higher cost spells. Getting base vanilla levels of XP for cheap spells and more for more expensive ones and the existing feature does that just fine.

[hoary trellis]

well, you can also set min scaled XP gain at 100% so even the cheapest spell gives the base value

[void roost]

And what about magicka cost related to magic school skill?

[past pendant]

you mean the higher the skill, the higher the magicka cost reduction?

[void roost]

Yes
Something like Skyrim perks which reduce specific spell levels of specific magic school to half of based value.

More as a separate mod

[rare stone]

I guess to try to point out the thing that irks me more specifically: This character uses illusion all the time, but it's the only spell school they use. They don't have any of the star signs that fortify their magicka. I can cast this Sanctuary spell one (1) time before needing to chug potions to do any more casting. With cost-based scaling that gets me a decent chunk of XP, but chance based scaling it gets me almost nothing and I physically can't cast a spell that has a much higher chance of failure

[past pendant]

I don't consider that I'm losing XP when I don't gain a normal XP. I think the current approach is a bit cheesy as it allows you to get more XP in later game for free

[forest linden]

will give it a whirl, looks to be a good update, sorry for the late response, been playing the game.

will give t a go when I file it back up

ok to upgrade mid save? just checking