NCGDMW Lua Edition

[hoary trellis]

but governing attribute shouldn't be INT because otherwise you might just as well be training Alteration

there is very little reason to pick Security

I think that governed by INT gives even less reason to pick the skill

[dawn spindle]

That does not check out to me

It's just the governor, not that important. The attribute payouts are quite different.

Quite different between Security and Alteration, I mean.

[hoary trellis]

if it's not important, then there shouldn't be a problem with changing it to AGI where it belongs ;). That way your training won't be restricted by INT (where Alteration is a better pick, anyway), but by AGI which is important for a thief.

[dawn spindle]

I don't get how Alteration would be a better pick for a thief with no other magic skills

INT governing Security is a bit of vanilla flavor that makes RL sense, so we are going to try it. AGI I see as more of a weapon dexterity and evade attribute, and had wanted less of it for Security. Yes, it is used in the Security skill checks, but the INT governor is pure flavor, and has its charm if you look at it right. NCGD also made Spear into Strength, which certainly makes the Spear work better, but destroys the flavor. Consider that Spear trainers can't train you unless you have the Endurance - that is all the Governing attribute is saying.

[hoary trellis]

because you need high INT for Security training. That means more magicka, so you wonder why even bother with Security where you can get Alteration which has way way more utility. With Security governed by AGI you won't be gatekept by INT even though you will get that +3 INT bonus.

[dawn spindle]

INT over Security is truly flavorful and nice

Alteration does not give you AGI

For a non-caster, more WIL will be wasted

What you are saying was probably much more true before these impact revisions.

[hoary trellis]

We are talking training here. As a thief character, your INT won't be that high unless you develop magic skills. You don't need INT for anything. It's not important for any of the thief's skills. Therefore, you will be heavily restricted by your INT when training - an attribute which you won't be using for anything else. You might just as well pick Alteration and go for the spells and this is not sth which should be promoted. If the only reason is flavour, then that's definitely trumped by real utility and gameplay.

[dawn spindle]

Hybrids in particular will be much more nuanced to pick skills for. Don't forget the training caps for maj/min/misc. It's going to be interesting and fun!

[hoary trellis]

I think that you are trying to convince yourself more than anyone else 😄

[dawn spindle]

Perhaps master lockpicking is not meant to be taught, you have to teach yourself?

[hoary trellis]

oh man... 😄

[dawn spindle]

If it is otherwise unanimous that INT should not rule Security, then there is a slight chance I could be wrong lol

You are right that it needs AGI rule to be attractive enough to take

AGI will still not be 100 right away

That's a quick change

[hoary trellis]

I mean, you must know that this part sounds like copium. Keep in mind that ATM I'm not arguing for removing that +3 INT bonus. +3 INT and +3 AGI should be enough for "Vanilla flavour"

[dawn spindle]

Have fully argue on the devil's behalf is all. 🙂

[hoary trellis]

so a pure non-caster thief will get slightly higher INT than average which is ok

but won't be gatekept by INT with Security in training

that higher INT in NCGD has 1 good effect for a thief - lower skill decay. This is good. Nice bonus.

[dawn spindle]

You speak great sense, serjo!

It is fixed.

[hoary trellis]

@past pendant this is the current version

[dawn spindle]

Feedback on the description lexicon of "great amount", "a bit", etc. is welcome.

@swift hornet You can reference the PNG for the impacts and governing attributes, or look into ncgdmw.yaml if you prefer text.

The .yaml is equivalent to the .omwaddon, but in text form markup. They are interconvertible with delta plugin. FYI

The configuration.lua holds the impact values. The ncgdmw.omwaddon/yaml holds the descriptions and governing attributes.

[swift hornet]

So @past pendant bug defeated, whatever you did worked this time. I'm stopped at all trainers. at least i think i visited them all to test

as far as stats and attribute impact, it seems fine to me, makes sense on what you'd have.

a warrior will have low int and will for the most part.

[dawn spindle]

You may need to update delta_merged.omwaddon to see descriptions and governing attributes.

[past pendant]

I'm on a new build with last of your collaborative changes

[swift hornet]

it actually works without that

[hoary trellis]

btw what character have you been playing recently, if any? Or what character do you plan to play?

[past pendant]

We're almost there

I still need to update the README.md and the ODS spreadsheet

Also I would like to get @shut wedge's feedback, but it will depend how long he's off

@dawn spindle @swift hornet @hoary trellis please:

• create new characters with this build
• check if attribute values feel right
• load existing game saves, and also check the profile coherence
• play with settings, your profiles will be instantaneously updated when you resume the game
• try the new "Retained Start Values Ratio" setting (you can suggest better names and descriptions)
• evaluate the slow/normal/fast growth setting
• play with the "Growth Factor from Major/Minor/Misc Skills" settings
• enjoy the new skills organisation in the stats menu

• check the console (or F10) for errors

please 🙏 ❤️ 🙂

[dawn spindle]

Which build, boss?

[past pendant]

also, don't use game saves from old betas, if any

[dawn spindle]

This might help with the readme:```Design departures from current NCGD

• skill impacts are no longer limited to 4-2-1 format
• some skills are now "taller", giving 5 or 6 to a single attribute
• more disctinct higher-level characters in terms of attributes
• Major and Minor skill choice is now much more impactful
• fewer illogical skill/attribute associations
  ** no more INT/WIL for martial disciplines
  ** no more physical attributes for magic schools
• governing attributes are vanilla except:
  ** Security governed by AGI
  ** Conjuration and Destruction governed by WIL
  ** Alteration governed by INT
• Make Character Design Meaningful Again™

[past pendant]

that one just above

[past pendant]

It both belongs to the changelog and a dedicated section in the readme 🤔

[dawn spindle]

* vanilla balance of attribute gains in STR vs. END/PER
** note that vanilla balance here fixes serious inconsistencies and bad corners when arranging the table of how skills impact attributes, and makes END precious
* vanilla "balance" of how many skills are governed by each attribute
* certain vanilla skills not being governed by skills used in their skill checks on purpose
* the one-attribute-per-skill conditions that provided delicious puzzle solving at chargen to sculpt your future character
* the charming level-up messages

Things we love that are not going anywhere:
* losing the rest-to-level mechanic and its inverted min-max strategies with misc skills
* more nuance than single attribute-per-skill
* most everything else```

(I added ", and makes END precious")

[past pendant]

Skill^2 level formula
Gone 🙂

[dawn spindle]

OOOOOH

[past pendant]

for the player level? attribute growth? skill gain?

only skill gains now have an exponential setting, but root: gain^0.5

[dawn spindle]

This is a pretty big under-the-hood change! A whole new curve for skillups instead of .5*gain^2 -> .125*gain^2, if I read that right...

[past pendant]

If you're talking about skill progression, then no change on that

[dawn spindle]

Ah k

[past pendant]

Only new settings for skill uses

[dawn spindle]

Ahhhh

[past pendant]

My first motivation for this release was to remove the exponential formula that makes the player level and the attribute grow in strange ways sometimes

[dawn spindle]

Thus "gain", derp.

[past pendant]

Derp?

[dawn spindle]

It is a stupid noise 🙂

A noise I make when I overlook something.

It is common English slang.

[past pendant]

Alright🙂

[dawn spindle]

Similar to "d'oh!"

[fiery oak]

d’oh is a contraction

[dawn spindle]

(I knew better)

[past pendant]

👋 ❤️ 💤

[dawn spindle]

Sweet dreams, buddy! Fun day, thanks.

[dawn spindle]

Here is that latest version for anyone looking for it.

[dawn spindle]

There is an error in the in-game description for Light Armor. It should read instead: "...both Endurance and Speed a fair amount..." @hoary trellis @swift hornet @molten coyote

This fixes the error in the Light Armor skill description.

[dawn spindle]

@vital viper I proposed a level-up window where the player picks one attribute to increase and gets a summary of attribute gains since the last level, but I don't think it will get into this version.

[fiery oak]

Honestly I think it would be neat to just optionally restore the sleep mechanic for "levelling"

I think we discussed this a while back, we went into it for an hour or something, but you could just fake the whole process, or even include attribute increases if you want

The messages are cool

[dawn spindle]

I'm going to edit my list of babies thrown out with the bathwater to include that, thanks!

[dawn spindle]

Still get continuous attribute impacts ala currect NCGD, but need to sleep to actually gain the level and pick your bonus attribute (which was not one of the 2 most-increased since the last level)?

NCGD-style would just pop the dialog when ever you cross the threshold.

Make Leveling Meaningful Again™

[vital viper]

That would be so cool yeah!

[dawn spindle]

This might be helpful for people planning characters. I use it as a reference on my ereader.

[dawn spindle]

I have to give a big kudos to @hoary trellis specifically for the invaluable participation today! 🏅
You came in and saw what we were going for right away, and very efficiently drove the project to a better completion. You were eloquent, cordial, and on point. You are a sharp and knowledgable cat, and we are lucky to have you!
Plus, you were very patient with me! 😊
Three cheers for @hoary trellis !

[past pendant]

@dawn spindle @hoary trellis @swift hornet @shut wedge I think I'm ready for the release, unless you found bugs or other issues

[hoary trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/dew-it-galactic-republic-palpatine-gif-21847982

[past pendant]

I'm waiting for @swift hornet and @dawn spindle to wake up first 🙂

[dawn spindle]

🚚 it

[past pendant]

NCGDMW v4.0 released!

• The player level is now computed as in vanilla (10 Major/Minor skills increases)
• Attribute growth is more faithful to vanilla (no more exponential growth)
• Altered skill governing attributes, closer to vanilla
• Starting (chargen) attributes can now be preserved
• New setting to decide how much of chargen attributes are preserved, and consequently how much of chargen skill values are used to define starting attributes
• New skill impacts on attributes distribution, thanks to @dawn spindle, helped by @hoary trellis
• Major, Minor and Misc skills now have different contributions to attribute growth (customizable, half for Misc skills by default)
• Added training caps: Minor skills cannot be trained above any Major skill, and same for Misc over Minor
• Improved the stats menu layout, organized skills by Major, Minor and Misc
• Health settings now have their own section
• Improved end of chargen detection
• "Constant Progression Factor" setting now defaults to "Down to 1/4" (delay you being OP)
• Allow greater values for attribute and skill setting cappers
• Fixed player level and level progression broken when resetting the profile (during major updates or manual resets)
• Fixed vampirism and other active spells cleared when upgrading NCGDMW
• Deep refacto of most Lua files. Main change: Now all persisted data are stored in a single state object, which is passed to every code that needs it
• Note: You can install or update NCGDMW to v4.0 midgame, your profile will be automatically updated
• Note: You can change any setting, at any time, your profile will be updated as soon as you resume the game

[dawn spindle]

• Major changes to governing attributes, closer to vanilla

[past pendant]

=> New skill impacts on attributes distribution, thanks to @dawn spindle, helped by @hoary trellis

[scarlet depot]

Mym, thank you very much

Love this vanilla approach to it

I'll give some good feedback

[past pendant]

Yes, please! You know how I like feedback 🙂

[swift hornet]

I just woke up. Yeah send it!

[past pendant]

it's on Nexus!

[rocky hemlock]

Are all the changes undoable by the player?

[past pendant]

All settings change can be changed again

Note: You can change any setting, at any time, your profile will be updated as soon as you resume the game

[rocky hemlock]

I might try and work out a hack to integrate the old level up images in to this mod somehow

[past pendant]

if you plan to re-create the level up window, maybe we could add it in NCGDMW as optional?

[rocky hemlock]

I will let you know if I do 👍

I was thinking something simpler like just getting the image in there not actually letting you click stuff in it 😅

[past pendant]

ah

the question is: When should it be displayed?

Not in combat...

Also @dawn spindle wanted the possibility to add exactly one attribute point...

[rocky hemlock]

Well we can detect when the player is asleep (in mwscript at least)

[past pendant]

Also, if you know how to generate sounds, we are looking for a proper level up sound 🙂

[past pendant]

that means we'll also have to delay the actual level increase, which needs thinking

[rocky hemlock]

I'd use the game's existing level up sounds personally

[past pendant]

we already use it for the attribute growth...

we need 2 different sounds

hmm actually we use the "skillraise" sound

[rocky hemlock]

If I try and do it won't be for a long time I've got other mods I'm working on

[past pendant]

@hoary trellis @swift hornet I realize that luck is also influenced by the attribute growth setting, but as you cannot min max it in vanilla, maybe its growth should be constant whatever the growth setting?

[hoary trellis]

What is it like ATM?

[past pendant]

I think that luck was not influenced by that setting pre-4.0

[past pendant]

I tested with normal and fast growth settings, and it produces luck values higher than you can get in vanilla

Load a game save of yours, and change that setting, you'll see

[hoary trellis]

Well I don't think that it should be fast . Luck is the hardest attribute to increase in Vanilla

[past pendant]

I agree. I'll fix that

[past pendant]

How should luck's growth be? One point every two players levels?

Or maybe I could just set its impact to 0.5 instead of 1

[hoary trellis]

This sounds like 2 ways of doing the same thing 😀

[past pendant]

Not exactly. Changing the impact will still make luck influenced by the skill growth setting

0.5 is not sexy.
Maybe I'll double the other impacts instead

[scarlet depot]

Is there anything in particular Mym that you'd like me to pay attention to? I already like what I'm seeing. I'm going to do a faction run with a new character

[past pendant]

Load game saves, check if the attributes are coherent with your skills

Check the logs for errors if course

[scarlet depot]

Okay I will

[past pendant]

Play with the settings!

The new "Start Attributes Ratio" specifically, read the setting description

Use the stats menu to compare attributes start and growth values

That setting is easier to evaluate on a new profile though

[scarlet depot]

So far it's running well no errors, I'm going to start a playthrough shortly with a fresh character

Thank you as always mym

[past pendant]

Choose your profile carefully, now charged choices are far more important

[scarlet depot]

Ohh okay

[molten oyster]

Super excited to try out the changes. I’ll give it a good run this week and report back! 🫡

Is there a hotfix coming before I start a new save?

[past pendant]

A small one on luck, but it will automatically update your game

[molten oyster]

Sweet, thanks for your dedication to these mods mym! They are genuinely a game changer!

[past pendant]

BTW, when do you increase your luck in vanilla? Every level? Once per 2, 3, 4 levels? Never?

[past pendant]

With pleasure, I'm really glad to offer this version. I hope I'll try it soon for real.

[molten oyster]

When I was chained to vanilla leveling, I leveled it every single level up due to FOMO 😅

[past pendant]

It's a special attribute as it doesn't govern any skill. Thus hard to handle by NCGDMW

[molten oyster]

Yeah totally understandable. It’s hard to balance around since it seems pretty clear Bethesda never intended for players to raise it to 100

[past pendant]

That gives me an idea: How about a setting that allows the player to decide how much luck is important to him? The more important, the greater the luck growth, but the lesser the growth of other attributes. ( @hoary trellis @swift hornet )

[hoary trellis]

I never picked Luck in Vanilla :D. Other modifiers were simply too good.

[hoary trellis]

just keep in mind that many players will play on default settings

[past pendant]

See, the opposite choice of @molten oyster . Thus we need a setting

[past pendant]

I know that very well. I always try to set the most sensible settings. And I have lots of settings

[molten oyster]

Once I started using leveling mods like NCGD, I stopped worrying so much about Luck. In the grand scheme of things, it is pretty inconsequential like @hoary trellis said

[swift hornet]

Luck is only super busted if you have a lot.

You need to invest in it immediately in vanilla

And fortify it too

[past pendant]

True. And now what 🙂 ? Do you prefer a slowly increasing luck? A setting?

[spark pawn]

Do you know if it's possible to add an option that has reputation determine the character's luck? The higher the character's reputation, the higher their luck. Reputation is used for almost nothing in-game.

[past pendant]

I cannot see how reputation could realistically impact luck

[spark pawn]

Luck is a pretty vague quality anyways, but I would think of it as the greater the character's renown, the more attention and favour they might receive from Aedra and Daedra, the more likely they are to emerge from a perilous situation unscathed.

[past pendant]

Now I see what you mean. Seems quite subjective though

[spark pawn]

That's why it could be an option. There isn't any real reason why skills should affect luck either. It doesn't work that way in vanilla anyways.

[past pendant]

true

[swift hornet]

Luck is often seen as divine favour 😉

[swift hornet]

I mean, I'd definitely prefer if luck was earned in some way. It's a powerful stat to just be given for free.

[hoary trellis]

if we are talking options, then knowing myself, if there was "no luck growth" option I would pick this in an instant and use the slowest attribute growth option available anyway. That way Luck would stay at base value unless it was buffed by some other means (items, spells etc.) and I would still have all the challenge associated with slow attribute growth

if there was "no bonus HP for level ups" then I would probably use that as well, lol

[swift hornet]

Tbh, my only issue with the normal attribute growth speed is that my HP seems super high

[swift hornet]

I think there is a setting. That or it massively lowers it.

[hoary trellis]

I use the slowest attribute growth option available and lowest HP per lvl option

[swift hornet]

Surprised that hp option doesn't go to 0.

[hoary trellis]

it should IMO

HP has a great effect on difficulty

even a wimpy character gets a lot of HP for "free" due to levels

[swift hornet]

It's also exponential with this mod.

Each level gives more HP than the last

[molten oyster]

I actually love the luck tied to reputation idea

[scarlet depot]

Hmm me too

And I agree about the correlation between health and difficulty

[dawn spindle]

OG NCGD kind of eliminated luck as a stat in a way no?

I survived surg. BTW fam, just one o' them slow-talkersnow 1-handed 😊

[tawdry hedge]

Could the training cap thing be made togglleable, by any chance?

[swift hornet]

it is a nice way for luck to be earned because i love questing lol

[swift hornet]

it's purely due to it being exponential. Levels give more HP than anything else.

[molten oyster]

Since Luck "affects everything you do", it is easy to RP it as your character slowly gaining experience and knowledge of the wider world. Honestly, luck tied to reputation is peak.

Might be controversial to some, but I love it.

[swift hornet]

i just like it because it's earned, in a unique way at that.

[molten oyster]

True

[dawn spindle]

something needs doing about luck, rep is intriguing

(1 🖐️ ⌨️ sry)

"there is no luck, only preparation" (& reputation! 😅 )

[spark pawn]

I've tried my hand at the skill-attribute distribution, and I think I've landed on something I'm pretty satisfied with. I used the KCAS Wheel from Oblivion modding as a starting point and added Morrowind skills:

[past pendant]

I can't easily add a zero health growth to the health setting

[past pendant]

Actually, it's linear to the player level. But we could think about an exponential (square root) progression

[swift hornet]

it feels exponential with testing, like i always gain a ton regardless of my stats

[past pendant]

Maybe your player level was too high

[swift hornet]

oh i tried it across all levels, it just feels way too high almost always. Maybe a setting to remove it

[past pendant]

It's weird because the low setting values (base and gain) should give you low HP

[swift hornet]

i like the base settings, like the HP from attributes is good and makes sense, I just feel like the HP gained from levels is most impactful even on low.

which feels weird.

[past pendant]

I think it's same issue with vanilla. The issue is us being veteran players who find the game too easy

[past pendant]

Seems interesting. And could solve the luck growth issue

[swift hornet]

thus the purpose of the settings lol, like can there be a 0% per level HP thing? or very low, like 25% or something?

[swift hornet]

yeah, it's a unique reward for engaging with the quests.

[past pendant]

But, it seems I cannot access to the reputation value with Lua 😔

[spark pawn]

I noticed that as well. That's why I wondered if it could even be implemented.

[swift hornet]

sad

[past pendant]

The current low value is already only 5%, which is half the vanilla growth

[swift hornet]

5% of current hp before the level up though

[dawn spindle]

Here we obsolete HBFS 😅 😉

[swift hornet]

vanilla is 10% of just endurance, so most you get is 10 HP per level, Where as this mod you on average get way more. Especially at high levels.

[swift hornet]

HBFS just lets you increase their damage, which largely has diminishing returns due to the types of defenses that the player can have. The HP can absolutely outscale the damage in most cases baring giving them like 500-1000% more strength.

This isn't absolutely game breaking or anything, it's just an observation

i've just had lvl 30-40 characters with 500-800 Hp which feels like quite a bit

[dawn spindle]

diminishing returns due to the types of defenses
🔑 ☝️

[past pendant]

Vanilla is 10% of endurance per level. But as it's not retroactive, it gives you less

[dawn spindle]

So many good char ideas rn ofc 💔 :wrist: 😢
Do me proud, people! ✊

[swift hornet]

Correct. Which is 10 hp per level. Its the max you can get. It only factors natural endurance.

Im just saying I've had multiple level ups where I've gotten 10+ HP even on the lower setting. Especially once levels get higher up.

[dawn spindle]

esp 2 see how @past pendant 's hybrid chars go 🤤

[swift hornet]

It's not so much a difficulty thing. I actually love the state based HP setting.

[past pendant]

what about 0, 5 and 10 values for the HP growth setting? (instead of just 5 and 10)

[past pendant]

ok I'll do 0, 2, 4 and 8 percents

4 by default

[spark pawn]

I made a crack at reconfiguring the skill-impact distribution as there are a few things I'm not a fan of with the current system:

• Skill impacts do not have the same total for every attribute
• The governing attribute does not constitute the majority of skill-impact for some skills
• I wanted more granularity in skill impacts and for them to be more easily understood by the player

This is what I came up with

I started by using the KCAS Wheel from Oblivion modding as a baseline and added those skills exclusive to Morrowind. With this system, every skill’s impact on attributes is out of 100 rather than out of 7. This enables me to sprinkle skill-impact for each skill between multiple attributes rather than only two or three. I wanted the governing attribute to have the majority of a skill’s skill-impact, and so the governing attribute now constitutes 60% of skill-impact for every skill. The remaining 40% of skill-impact can be distributed between at least three other attributes. The total skill-impact for every attribute is now 385 with the sole exception being speed which has a total skill-impact of 390 because unfortunately 27 skill x 100 / 7 attributes does not equal a nice whole number. I think this slight inequality is fine as speed is an attribute which is useful to every character archetype. I just wanted some feedback on some of my proposed changes.

You can use this file to try and edit some things yourself:

[past pendant]

This is very different from the new one in 4.0

[spark pawn]

exactly

[past pendant]

I you want that, you can create a mod and use the dedicated NCGD's interface function to alter the impacts

[past pendant]

What I can do is sum the player reputation in all factions he belongs to 🤔

My best idea so far is:

• exclude luck from the impact table
• add a setting that controls how much luck is important to the player
• the higher the importance, the higher the luck growth, but that growth is taken from all other attributes growth
• by default, small importance

[dawn spindle]

lot to chew on here. i admit not knowing kcas wheel. we develop your ideas while 4.0 is played, and feedback garnered, fair? sry typing sux atm

4.0 already a sea change

[spark pawn]

Understood. Just wanted to get my ideas out there

[dawn spindle]

this but vanilla ~~importance/~~gainzz, allow attr +1 at level, solved

player directed development in many cool metagame was eliminated in many ways (some stinkers too, no doubt!) by NCGD 1.0. if we could tactfully bring some back in as a broader goal where appropriate

[dawn spindle]

super-heady and well-received! this poroject just took a bit of a retro turn with 4.0, maybe timing

[hoary trellis]

Slow Luck growth on default seems ok. I think this represents most players tbh. BTW as for Luck being affected by reputation, IMO it's a red herring. High lvl players tend to have higher reputation, while low lvl players tend to have low reputation. In practice we would get similar results.

[dawn spindle]

1️⃣🖐️ ⌨️ 🙇‍♂️ 😊

[dawn spindle]

just to note that, were that the design goal, rep would be worthy to explore as a vector for it, 0.50

[hoary trellis]

This sounds good for HP.

[past pendant]

You mean you're not in favor of reputation-based luck?

[hoary trellis]

I tend to inflate enemy's STR a lot with Harder Faster Stronger in order to counter player health but with 0/2 growth option I wouldn't have to rely on that so much. HP affects a lot of things

[dawn spindle]

not feasible, i thought (rep-luck)

i liked it

i always thought those high-level bastards were lucky...

[hoary trellis]

I think that it won't matter that much. Definitely much less than some may think here because high lvl players will naturally have high reputation, so all this seems like high effort (implementation seems tricky atm) for low gain

[dawn spindle]

a mere sidestep

[hoary trellis]

Plz remember to implement 0 luck growth option ;). This is another thing which will make the game a little bit more challenging.

[dawn spindle]

...but maybe a backdoor to luck for early achievers?

[dawn spindle]

this is 100 better than my security/int arguments, say it 🤣

[hoary trellis]

I have sth like 75-80 Luck IIRC. Having this at 40 on default (with no magic effects) would definitely make things harder.

[dawn spindle]

suuuuup

[hoary trellis]

It is. I'm not even saying that it's a bad option. I simply think that it's a rather low impact one because the ultimate results would be similar.

[past pendant]

luck is tricky

with the future setting, if the player selects 1 luck / level, that means I should remove 1/3 growth for other attributes, as in vanilla you could only select 3 attributes to raise

[dawn spindle]

Kinda cool to gsin luck from feats instead of grinds, thematic

[dawn spindle]

💯 🎯 & please let's find a graceful way

[dawn spindle]

Or they can choose any attr, no more op than vanilla

...cince attr impacts are still down from vanillas

[past pendant]

interaction too complex

[dawn spindle]

...in magniutude

1️⃣🖐️ ⌨️ 🙇‍♂️ 😊

[hoary trellis]

Yeah and this gets me thinking that it would be cool if Luck was increased in a perk/trait/achievement-like fashion for doing some, well, lucky stuff. Surviving combat at very low heath. Surviving high fall damage. Finding a very rare item. Opening a high lvl lock with low skill. Casting a spell with low casting chance. Enchanting an item or making a potion with a low success chance.

Obv that would be an overhaul so probably outside the scope of the mod

[dawn spindle]

now kind atwo with numb fingers and sore as hell abstaining from pain pills, but it is the way!

Train for the task and all

Sucks not felling the keys

ANYHOOOOOO

[past pendant]

I had a similar idea.... and a similar conclusion 😅

[dawn spindle]

The icepack was majorly in the way

[dawn spindle]

tie it to "critical hit/miss" die rolls

[past pendant]

so... luck is still unsolved

[hoary trellis]

as long as you give me 0 luck growth option I will be happy 😄

but default should be slow growth

[dawn spindle]

seems so, but look at these cerrebral emanations

[past pendant]

you selfish guy 😄

[dawn spindle]

bro just setluck low

[past pendant]

you don't have players complaining at your mod :p

[hoary trellis]

defeating high lvl enemy at low low if also a fun option. It's cool coming up with "achievements". TBH I think that this would be a good basis for achievements mod. Gaining achievements would improve luck, but they would have no obvious stuff like "finish the first quest" or "get out of Seyda Neen"

[past pendant]

not as easy as that:

• how luck growth behaves when the attribute growth setting is changed?
• it's not fair to just have a setting for luck growth that doesn't affect other attribute growths

[dawn spindle]

programmatic "achievements" for attr. gain the only option. achievements no place here, out of kindness, another mod

i see that your propsal is integral to mcgd, okay, i hear you out

[hoary trellis]

RE: "fairness" keep in mind that it's also about challenge. I don't want 0 growth to make other attributes increase faster, for example. However, you are right that if we stick to Vanilla-thinking then improving Luck is at the expense of other attributes.

[hoary trellis]

well, I literally said that it would be a good basis for achievements mod 🤠

maybe 0 luck growth option should be called "Static"

[dawn spindle]

here we blur boundaries with difficulty mods, and perhaps obsolete their current settings, as i have offered to mym

[hoary trellis]

NCGD already has difficulty options. You can play with faster or slower attribute growth

[dawn spindle]

sorry @hoary trellis 👮‍♀️

[hoary trellis]

what you are sorry for? 😄

[dawn spindle]

What is the SitRep, @hoary trellis ?

[hoary trellis]

I don't understand 😄

[dawn spindle]

I was policing perhaps to much 🙇‍♂️

Just a pun i thought of earlier thinking of your contributions here 🙂 (What is the SitRep, @hoary trellis ?)

[hoary trellis]

Anyway, if mym implements 0 HP growth per lvl up then this obviously also makes the game much harder but it's just an option.

but it fits the mod because we already have many options

while the luck-for-achievements-idea is probably a good basis for achievements mod

[past pendant]

It's the other way around: Luck growth will reduce other growths

[hoary trellis]

this is how it would work in Vanilla

[dawn spindle]

math gets crazy fast for folks who aren't trying to master formulas craft

[past pendant]

yes, that's my guide

[dawn spindle]

is it the place of achievements mod to grant attr, even luck?

[hoary trellis]

That would be my idea. Small rewards like +1 LCK for each achievement. However, this is a different discussion

[dawn spindle]

perhaps arguably OP but harmless imo, kudos

like naked barb orthe dwemer coins in EV

[hoary trellis]

That's why I would avoid pointless achievements like "get out of prison ship" 😆

"Start the game"

XD

[dawn spindle]

just good flavor

[hoary trellis]

Stanley Parable had peak achievements

"Play The Stanley Parable for the entire duration of a Tuesday."

[dawn spindle]

i have only ever played one game with achievements, it was Heroes of Steel, and I didn't try or track them, ppl looking for that areback to back with me. company/designer does not design my freedom in a sandbox. outspoken with love

[hoary trellis]

"Go Outside
Don't play The Stanley Parable for five years."

[hoary trellis]

I usually don't care about achievements that much. They don't tend to direct my way of playing but it's fun to get some accidentally and see how many players got that achievement

[dawn spindle]

Respect, but how is that MW at all?

[hoary trellis]

Yeah It's off-topic

[dawn spindle]

Just use MW rep, but we can't 😢

*in MCGD for luck

Track reputation from chargen? @past pendant did i miss it?

[past pendant]

I don't know how

[round vector]

Can I ask a question about this mod here? My character is a level 5 mage, and it doesn't look like my maximum magicka has increased at all, its been 102 since i started. Is that normal?

I'm worried that using console commands to change my race a bunch of times early in my playthrough may have messed things up. >_<

Love the mod though and not complaining, just want to make sure its working right!

[hoary trellis]

magicka is strictly based on Intelligence. If your INT is getting higher, then Magicka should be getting higher as well. If it's not, then there will be no change.

note that no other attribute affects Magicka

only Intelligence

[round vector]

Ok

Well my Intelligence has gone from 30 to 60 since I started and my magica is 102.

The 102 is according to the old stats page though so I don't know if its truly accurate.

[past pendant]

NCGD doesn't touch magicka directly, it only increases Intelligence, then openmw is supposed to increase your magicka accordingly

[round vector]

Is it cool if I ask what the calculation is so I can figure out what its supposed to be?

If it's based on one stat is it just int*2 or something like that?

oh wait if its just the default calculation...

[past pendant]

depends on your attribute growth setting and the skills you raised

I mean, for the Intelligence value

for magicka, it's described in UESP docs I suppose

[round vector]

Yeah if the mod doesn't change how its calculated then my magicka is actually correct and maybe I'm just dumb.

Thanks for humoring me though, lol

[dawn spindle]

#218457935846703104 message NCGDMW Lua Edition 4.0 crosspost

[cerulean widget]

Assuming it's a no - but can it be safely updated mid playthrough? 🙂

[past pendant]

Note: You can install or update NCGDMW to v4.0 midgame, your profile will be automatically updated
Yes you can

[cerulean widget]

Awesome, thanks

Love this mod btw, you guys have made an amazing levelling system. I'll never use vanilla again

Love not feeling the need to min-max my level ups!

[dawn spindle]

🙇‍♂️ @past pendant
I'm relatively a hype man only 😊

[past pendant]

perfect, because I really lack that skill 🙂

[dawn spindle]

Morrowind.exe users don't want themselves to know this one simple trick: https://discord.com/channels/260439894298460160/1226608966612553749

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 4.1 released!

• Luck attribute is no more impacted by skills, instead a setting controls the gains per level, at the expense of other attribute growths
• HP growth setting now offers 0, 2, 4, and 8 percents
• Improve skill progress preservation with mid-game installs, console commands, training NPCs and books
• Added a setting to disable the new skill training capper (based on Major/Minor/Misc skills)

Now I need a break 🙂

I'll only answer to bug reports 😄

[hoary trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-mcu-exhale-thanos-infinity-stone-gif-16660976

[void roost]

Why 10% HP increase per lvl was deleted?

[past pendant]

because I wanted values that are the double of the previous one

[dawn spindle]

not a bug report sry 🤣

[past pendant]

10% doesn't many anything anyway, as the approach is different from vanilla

and most feedbacks were on the too high values

[void roost]

BUG REPORT: missing 10% (vanilla like) HP increase per lvl

XD

[hoary trellis]

Holy shit @past pendant you missed that one. Now you have to redo everything

[void roost]

Possible option but not a default

[past pendant]

Stop! I did not miss anything 🙂

[dawn spindle]

this guy refactors like i pee (plug: https://discord.com/channels/260439894298460160/1328136202041163886)

[past pendant]

in vanilla, the 10% are not retroactive, therefore, the real increase in vanilla is lower

[void roost]

Ok

[dawn spindle]

fixing crufty ncgd-flation

[void roost]

That make sense

So if I increase skills based on endurance strength and willpower later vs increase at first I will have these same amount of hp on e.g. 30lvl?

Or just starting stats make only difference?

[dawn spindle]

BUG REPORT: the man wants answers

[past pendant]

The increase order or timing is not important

at any moment, your health is computed on your current stats

[void roost]

Nice

[past pendant]

if you have the "State-based HP" setting on

no

it's always true actually

and with the state-based HP setting, it also integrates dynamic changes on the related attributes

fortifications, sicknesses...

[void roost]

base -> current

[past pendant]

base -> modified

[void roost]

Can't wait to try new version 4. version

[stray nimbus]

My lizard brain doesn't understand how this mod works, I'm just glad I don't have to min-max

[hoary trellis]

that's the fun part. You don't have to understand the inner workings of this mod. It just works

[worthy kindle]

Do you level every 30 skillups, regardelss of what skills? Like could I gain a level by leveling heavy armor 30 times?

[past pendant]

Now it's vanilla: 10 major or minor skills

[alpine veldt]

Hmm, updated just today for a new playthrough and I believe it is bugged? I first picked a premade class but then changed to a custom now. Issue is now that the mod is treating my attributes and skills like I stuck with the premade class.

[dawn spindle]

I can't help you fix it, but I hope you can work around it with a fresh char until the author maintainer, mym, is back from a well-deserved break!

He is probably "author" by this point, it's >90% his code.

Our favorite "non-founding author" 😁

[past pendant]

Hey, I'm not sure to understand: How can you change your class?

[dawn spindle]

I understood it to mean: picking a vanilla class but then returning to custom class, having it show the previous

....in chargen

[alpine veldt]

When first talking to Socucius Ergalla you are expected to pick a class. Before he hands you your papers you can change anything about your character again, like also class.
Stats and skills get distributed the first time you pick your class but don‘t get adjusted if you change it later in the dialogue. I can share screenshots later of what my ingame stats look like and what the NCGDMW stat window looks like.

It is not a bigggie for me, just wanted to let you know 👍

[past pendant]

Thx for the details. Now I know what's happening. Will fix that soon.
Also I'll support EnableClassMenu and other similar console commands

[dawn spindle]

support EnableClassMenu
OMG wow

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 4.1.1 released!

• Fixed broken profile when going to previous menus during the character generation
• Fixed broken Major/Minor skills detection during major updates or manual resets
• Support changing your profile with console commands (EnableRaceMenu, EnableClassMenu, EnableBirthMenu...)
• Improved and updated setting page descriptions

As always you can upgrade midgame, and also play with settings to suit the mod to your needs, everything updates dynamically

[tawdry hedge]

Does the last update mean, that Gentler Racemenu is not needed anymore?

[past pendant]

It's different. I don't know how that mod works and if it's compatible with NCGD

NCGD does nothing to preserve your old skill values, you may lost them

But I suppose NCGD could save the skill increases and re-apply them after the class change

the start spells are already handled by NCGD as they may change based on your final Willpower value

and attributes are always generated anyway

damn it, each time I do a release, someone comes just after and suggest something interesting

[past pendant]

I need opinions (again) about skill values if the player changes his class or race with console commands @hoary trellis @swift hornet @dawn spindle :

• I reset the skills and set the player to level 1 (current behavior)
• I preserve skill increases and apply them to the new chargen values
• I preserve the total skill gains and convert them to skill increases

The last one is tricky but more fair:

• Suppose you had Speechcraft as a Misc skill in the first class, and increased it by practice to level 20 (15 increases)
• then you change class and Speechcraft becomes a Major skill at level 30
  • should I add 30 + 15 = 45?
  • should I convert 15 increases from level 5 to 20 to the number of times you succeeded with speechcraft and apply the gains to the skill level 30, which will give you far less than 15 increases?

[past pendant]

I really think option 2 is the most logical one

[rocky hemlock]

Why do you need to support the player doing that? I feel like preserving existing level and skill levels when changing race with enableracemenu should be for another mod almost

[hoary trellis]

This isn't normal behaviour at all. Class change is not supported in Vanilla. Do what you think works best and is least buggy. It's not sth that the mod is made with in mind, anyway. It's a bonus feature and can be tricky

[past pendant]

Because players make mistake and don't want to loose their efforts if they want to change their profile

Another mod will conflict with NCGD because of its nature to change many things in profiles

[past pendant]

Class change is not supported in Vanilla
Neither is natural leveling 😉
It's clearly a bonus feature and NCGD already has almost all internal features to support it

As we directed the last major update towards "chargen choices matter", it's now easier to misconstruct a profile, and as "time matters" too, we don't want to start over and over again

[hoary trellis]

Dunno, probably option 2 is the most sensible one if 3 is too hard. 1 seems pointless because you may just as well start over

[past pendant]

Finally, option 3 is trickier than I thought, as calculating the total gains for a skill has to factor all NCGD's skill settings (gain reductions...)

Maybe I'll just give up on that feature

[rocky hemlock]

There is dynamic attribute in lua?

to allow me to adust an attribute?

[past pendant]

something like that: types.Actor.stats.attributes.strength(self).base = 80

[past pendant]

if you do it with NCGD loaded, your change will be detected as an external change, and will be preserved as a "mod", you can see it in the stats menu

[rocky hemlock]

Then how do I add 10 to it?

it says it is read only

[past pendant]

it's similar to the quest with the naked nord who gives you +2 strength

[rocky hemlock]

I'm asking how to do it with lua not about this mod I just thought maybe you would have had to do it for this already

I should look at the code maybe

I was having this trouble

[past pendant]

modified is read only

base and modifier are not

modified is a computed value

[rocky hemlock]

ah! I was just worried about some unintended implications of changing base. Modifier sounds like the one to go with then!

ty!

WOuld help if I read too

[swift hornet]

Yeah idk about console command resetting. I've never even done it once.

Just whatever produces the least bugs and is easiest for you to do.

You dont have to worry much about lost progress they can just console command their skills back to whatever it was anyway.

If they are already changing class with console commands, why not fix the skills themselves?

[past pendant]

agreed

I just gave up 🙂

was too complicated with all skill gain alterations done by NCGD

[stray nimbus]

It seems to be compatible

I changed my character face and breast size and every other stat stayed the same

[past pendant]

changing the race or the class my be problematic though

[stray nimbus]

I will test it

Compatible with race

Compatible with class

[molten oyster]

Been playing with 4.0 for a few hours and the changes feel nice. Can’t speak too much on it yet since I’m only level 3 but the vanilla approach feels really good

[tawdry hedge]

Yeah, they should be compatible. I was talking about redundant functionality.

[past pendant]

NCGD is subtle, hard to evaluate in a short period of time

[spark pawn]

I noticed after installing the latest version mid-save, I'm unable to open the stat menu on holding the hotkey. A nexus comment mentioned that this was an issue with 3.6. Did it ever get fixed?

[past pendant]

It has been fixed. Are there any errors in the log viewer?

You can try the reset procedure with the console:

luap
I.NCGDMW.ResetStats()

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 4.1.2 released!

• Added an optional death count in the stats menu (off by default)
• Don't show multiple messages if a stat changes by more than 1 points

The death count is not retroactive

and requires to save at least once your game

[past pendant]

New reflection: Should I add Constant Skill Progress setting values above 1, to make skills increase faster, when the player also uses the Exponential Skill Progress setting?

Because the exponential setting reduces gains of skills from level 1, which makes the early game a bit more difficult for increasing skills

For instance, with Vanilla value for the constant setting, and 1/8 for the exponential setting, a skill level 30 requires 1.63 more gains to level up

then when you start your playthrough, it's already harder to increase major skills, even though you set the vanilla value for the constant setting

@hoary trellis @swift hornet @dawn spindle

if it's not clear, please tell me, I can give you more examples 🙂

[hoary trellis]

I sort of like current settings and don't want to make the game easier. We have major landmass mods now (TR, Project Tamriel) and tons of additional content in the modlists so slower levelling is important IMO... so if you implement sth to make it easier, then it should be optional IMO 😄

[past pendant]

Alright

[dawn spindle]

I could see reasons for wanting skills to increase a little faster early on. MW's snowballing problem isn't too much related to weak skills rising too quickly.

[scarlet depot]

Hmm for some reason I can't bring up the stats menu with the n key in this update. Let me try again

I see this error now too hmm

L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] eventHandler[ncgd_showStatsMenu] failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'hpGainRatio' (a nil value)
[16:29:53.798 E] stack traceback:
[16:29:53.798 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: in function 'updateHealth'
[16:29:53.798 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:334: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:331>
[16:29:53.798 E] [C]: in ?
[16:29:54.198 E] L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] eventHandler[ncgd_showStatsMenu] failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'hpGainRatio' (a nil value)
[16:29:54.198 E] stack traceback:
[16:29:54.198 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: in function 'updateHealth'
[16:29:54.198 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:334: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:331>
[16:29:54.198 E] [C]: in ?
[16:29:54.585 E] L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] eventHandler[ncgd_showStatsMenu] failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'hpGainRatio' (a nil value)
[16:29:54.585 E] stack traceback:
[16:29:54.585 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: in function 'updateHealth'
[16:29:54.585 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:334: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:331>
[16:29:54.585 E] [C]: in ?
[16:29:54.884 E] L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] eventHandler[ncgd_showStatsMenu] failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'hpGainRatio' (a nil value)
[16:29:54.884 E] stack traceback:
[16:29:54.884 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: in function 'updateHealth'
[16:29:54.884 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:334: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:331>
[16:29:54.884 E] [C]: in ?
[16:29:55.095 E] L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] eventHandler[ncgd_showStatsMenu] failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'hpGainRatio' (a nil value)
[16:29:55.095 E] stack traceback:
[16:29:55.095 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: in function 'updateHealth'
[16:29:55.095 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:334: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:331>
[16:29:55.095 E] [C]: in ?
[16:29:55.281 E] L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] eventHandler[ncgd_showStatsMenu] failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'hpGainRatio' (a nil value)
[16:29:55.281 E] stack traceback:
[16:29:55.281 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: in function 'updateHealth'
[16:29:55.281 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:334: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:331>

[past pendant]

My suggestion is to not make skills progress at a lower speed than vanilla, because the exponential progression setting reduce the gains exponentially based on the skill level, and thus also impacts chargen skills

[dawn spindle]

Vanilla speed to start makes :100: to me

[past pendant]

seems like an upgrade failed. Could you check your settings page, health section, if all values are well defined

[scarlet depot]

Let me see, I also couldn't bring up the stats menu, "n" key, with the most recent update as well

[past pendant]

then please also check if the N key is properly set in the settings

[scarlet depot]

Very strange, I tried resetting the stats key, etc

L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] eventHandler[ncgd_showStatsMenu] failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'hpGainRatio' (a nil value)
[16:57:06.026 E] stack traceback:
[16:57:06.026 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: in function 'updateHealth'
[16:57:06.026 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:334: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:331>

I also see this when I load in

L@0x1[scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua] onFrame failed. Lua error: [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: attempt to perform arithmetic on local 'hpGainRatio' (a nil value)
[16:56:56.064 E] stack traceback:
[16:56:56.064 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:281: in function 'updateHealth'
[16:56:56.064 E] [string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:298: in function <[string "scripts/ncgdmw/player.lua"]:290>

I used the console to test the stats, etc with this character

[spark pawn]

Did you manage to resolve this? I have the same issue.

[past pendant]

Go to the settings page, health settings, check for red values, change them

I cannot reproduce

[past pendant]

Could you tell me from what NCGDMW version did you upgrade with that game save?

[spark pawn]

This actually fixed it. In the settings menu, I had to change the Per Level HP Setting which had a red value to something else in order to get the stats menu to appear.

[spark pawn]

I updated from the dev build of version 3.5 mid-save.

[spark pawn]

Is it possible rather than outright eliminating skill points gained from skill books, a setting could be added that allows each skill book read to instead give a minor boost to the rate at which a skill increases? For example, I read Smuggler's Island and now anytime my character successfully makes an attack with a spear they receive an additional 10% towards Spear skill progress. I think this change has the potential to return a lot of value to exploration.

[molten oyster]

Not sure it’s a bug but I’ve noticed the ncgd menu is still showing odd percentages since moving to 10 major/minor. For example, I’ve seen 19% and 39%. Doesn’t seem to actually affect anything, just a visual quirk.

[past pendant]

I love that idea. It's totally possible. Would the bonus be permanent? Or for a few days?

[past pendant]

Thx, I'll check that

[spark pawn]

It could be either, but I think it being permanent would make finding skill books out in the wild a lot more exciting and collecting them all something worthwhile.

[hoary trellis]

Cool idea, although it should be noted that a permament 10% bonus would be much stronger than +1 from Vanilla 😀

It's like having Well Rested bonus which I proposed for 8h of sleep, but always on. Oh, and 2 skill books for the same skill would give 20%, then. It's all very strong.

[past pendant]

The difference is with skills you do not use: They won't get any increase

[hoary trellis]

Sure, but having bonus potential for the rest of the game makes it considerably stronger

Maybe it should last a month or sth

[spark pawn]

I was merely spitballing. 10% isn't hard and fast. You'd have to of course take into account the number of skill books for each skill and decide on a bonus that's doesn't make them essential but still makes them valuable.

What's the bonus to skill progression provided by assigning a skill a major skill or a minor skill?

[hoary trellis]

Well, I just checked and in Vanilla there are 5 skill books for Alchemy, for example

Mods will increase the number

So it will be hard to balance the bonus

[past pendant]

Major: 1.25, minor: 1.0, misc: 0.75

[spark pawn]

I would say based on that if it added 5% per skill book

So with all skill books a misc skill would progress at the same rate as a minor skill

[past pendant]

One issue is that it reintroduces some min-maxing: Find as early as possible a maximum of skill books for your major/minor skills.

[hoary trellis]

25% permament bonus is crazy IMO

[spark pawn]

There are always going to be min-maxers that are going to look at UESP for all of the skill book locations. I don't think that it would take away from people that play the game normally in a roleplaying sense

[past pendant]

Agreed.
That's why maybe it would be more fair if temporary

[hoary trellis]

Yes, but not sth like 48h, but more like weeks or a month. Not for eternity, though

That way you can get a lot out of this but it's not permament

[spark pawn]

I would say if anything a temporary bonus would encourage min-maxing. "I'm about to begin an alchemy training session. Better read a copy of A Game At Dinner."

[hoary trellis]

That sounds absolutely reasonable

And how things work IRL

[spark pawn]

Would rereading the book provide the bonus again?

Permanent bonuses would encourage exploration, and make book vendors valuable again.

[past pendant]

Indeed but you can decide when to benefit from the boost. You're not incited to do it as early as possible

[spark pawn]

But you can't pick up a book without reading it

[hoary trellis]

They are just as valuable as in Vanilla. You get +1, right?

[hoary trellis]

You can 😄

Open inventory and drag the book, I think

[spark pawn]

That's completely unnatural. You're going to use the activate button on it like you do everything else in the game.

So I find a skill book in Andrano Ancestral Tomb. Am I going to leave it there untouched until the moment I actually want to train that skill?

[past pendant]

Maybe the bonus could start with the next skill use

[hoary trellis]

@spark pawn Just to give you context about how powerful the bonus is. In Vanilla you get +5 from all skill books concerning a skill. That's 5/100 so sth like 5%. With your bonus it would be 25% increase and it would apply forever.

[hoary trellis]

Interesting

[spark pawn]

I still think it encourages min-maxing and unnatural play more than a permanent bonus. You should seek out these books when and wherever you can. These books contain valuable knowledge that can enhance your affinity for a skill.

[hoary trellis]

I think that this idea has merit

[spark pawn]

You can always reduce the bonus to fit a permanent scheme. If you think 5% is too high, reduce it to 2.5%.

[hoary trellis]

2.5% would be more sensible

I'm wondering whether these books should affect skill decay instead but that's strictly speaking an optional feature

[past pendant]

Another issue is to insert another percent in the stats menu 😅

[spark pawn]

I would say one other thing about the idea of making when to read a skill book a choice by having the bonus be temporary. This relies on players having meta knowledge of which books are skill books and which ones aren't. I'm a player that's returning to the game after not having played it for 10 years. I in the first few hours of my playthrough visit a dungeon where I come across a copy of A Game at Dinner. I, unknowing of the fact that this is a skill book because I'm not consulting UESP every time I need to make a minor decision, activate this book and read it not realizing the depth of my folly. I'm met with a message telling me that I have been given a bonus to alchemy progession for a week of in-game time. I haven't had the opportunity to gather any alchemy ingredients, and now I'm being sent off on a detour to make use of a temporary bonus I had no idea I was going to receive.

Is it better that this happens or that I read the book and it tells me that I have received a permanent bonus to my Alchemy skill progression, nothing else required on my part?

[past pendant]

I get your point. Hence the idea of a temporary bonus that is only triggered the next time you'll use that skill

[spark pawn]

The one thing I just can't grasp is why make it temporary when you can make it permanent. What does making it temporary give you that making it permanent doesn't?

[spark pawn]

Because now you have to think about how the player is going to be informed when the skill gain bonus begins and for how long. The player has to be able to check the remaining duration of the skill bonus. And they have to be notified when it ends. Can the bonus be reapplied upon rereading the book? These questions don't exist if the bonus were simply permanent.

[spark pawn]

It can also create situations where the player is encouraged to abstain from using a skill to avoid triggering the bonus at a suboptimal time. Say I'm much further into my playthrough, I've invested time to gathering ingredients and improving my alchemy skill. I run into the same book, A Game at Dinner, during a dungeon crawl and read it for the first time. My encumbrance is reaching its threshold and I need to brew a Feather potion. Unfortunately, if I do so it will trigger the temporary skill bonus when I'm in the middle of a dungeon and away from all my alchemy ingredients which are stored back at home.

[fiery oak]

At this point we're just turning skill books into fallout magazines and I am 100% here for it

mags were awesome

[spark pawn]

Fallout magazines you can at least trigger from your inventory

[dawn spindle]

Sounds like an interesting and fun decision point

[fiery oak]

You can use mags from the inventory.

[spark pawn]

Skill books in Morrowind you cannot

[dawn spindle]

Yes you can silly

If somone wants to min-max the temp bonus to skill gain, they need to know what the skill books are and pick it up without reading. Seems fair

That or make it permanent 1%, but I like the idea of optional min-maxing for those who dig it

[spark pawn]

That relies on the player knowing that A Game at Dinner is a skill book for Alchemy even before reading it and picking it up.

[fiery oak]

I think what they mean is that by the time you've gotten it into your inventory, you've already read the book, and then placed it in the inventory, thus losing the bonus to the pickup

[dawn spindle]

...which they would, on subsequent playthroughs. If it's a temp bonus, not so much is lost from not having the advance knowledge. It's not like you will never get there without minmaxing the skill book, just takes longer

[spark pawn]

A player coming back to the game after 10 years shouldn't be punished for not realizing that A Game at Dinner is a skill book for Alchemy.

[dawn spindle]

It is not necessary to read the book to get it in inventory

[spark pawn]

That relies on you picking it up whilst in your inventory which I would classify as unnatural behaviour.

[dawn spindle]

Not being prepared to maximize a temporary bonus is perhaps exaggerated as a "punishment"

[dawn spindle]

Price to pay for degenerate minmaxing 🤣

I'm not really in this race, just saw some room for counterpoints.

I like the new metagame implied by having temp bonuses, but there's no accounting for taste.

[spark pawn]

Scroll up. I'd honestly like to hear your opinion. It's a pretty long discussion so strap in.

[dawn spindle]

I been caught up 🙂

I just mean that the outcome is not too important to me.

IMO, if it would give someone joy to get all 5 alchemy skill books and stack the bonuses for a mad weekend in the methlab, they should enjoy the game that way. If it's maddening to play this way for them, they will be fine as long as the bonus isn't crazy high.

[hoary trellis]

interesting to get a discussion like while ATM the Vanilla way of doing things is still available. You get +1 skill. Permament. Simple and effective. It's all there 😄

I think that needs to be pointed out

[dawn spindle]

Seems like it may be a natural outgrowth of the ability to disable skill gains. What would be neither enabled nor disabled, a third way?

[hoary trellis]

The idea is certainly interesting, but since it's a player buff with no disadvantages, I'm sort of reluctant

just remember that +1 Vanilla bonuses are still absolutely there

nobody is forcing anybody to disable them

I play with these bonuses on

[spark pawn]

It might exist but it's far from ideal. There's a reason it's blocked by default with this mod. The +1 bonus from a skill book is worthless at the beginning of the game and becomes progressively of more worth as you increase the skill naturally. This encourages odd behaviours like picking up books from your inventory to actively avoid reading them until you reach high skill levels where the necessary skill investment to reach the next level is much higher. Skill books should be valuable throughout your playthrough.

[dawn spindle]

Why should skill books be valuable throughout your playthrough? Not sure that's established

[dawn spindle]

I usu do too, I think it has to do with how early skill development is very slow vs. vanilla.

I don't feel any pain from reading them "too soon" or anything, it's just gravy

[spark pawn]

Why should it have disadvantages? You went into a dungeon, killed its enemies, found a book. The skill book is a reward. It shouldn't be a gift with stipulations.

Is there a disadvantage to picking a glass dagger off a bandit's corpse. Maybe the weight of it, but that's about it.

[dawn spindle]

Point probably not so much to add disadvantage, as it is to acknowledge that the game doesn't need more buffs to player power

[spark pawn]

That's why my primary point is and still remains that a bonus provided by a skill book should be rewarding but not so much that it becomes essential. You would need to find a fine balance, but I still think its better than receiving nothing as with the mod's current setting.

Skill books are a fun part of the exploration loop.

At least when they do something other than having a monetary value.

[past pendant]

The reason I added a setting that disables skill books is because many of them are too easy to acquire. And in Morrowind, it's generally too easy to level up and become OP

[past pendant]

The gain boost has advantages over the vanilla behavior, I like it.
However, it may incite players to find them as soon as possible to benefit from the boost, as it can be seen as losing XP to use those books later in your playthrough.

[dawn spindle]

What about something like "upon reading a skill book, the next 2 skill points will be gained at double speed?"

[past pendant]

It's like a delayed lower boost. I don't think it improves on the vanilla behavior.

[dawn spindle]

Probably not.

But if you stack...

It's still a wash, hmm

Double speed skill gain for a day still seems like an interesting option to me.

3 skill books at once = 8x skill gainz

That would need a hard cap. Probably all too much for nothing.

[hoary trellis]

I don't think that skill books are the issue in Vanilla MW at all. It's just a freebie, but not game-changing.

any sort of permament skill gain bonus will be stronger than Vanilla behaviour

one thing which would be a "light" change

would be a conversion of +1 from the book into a constant fortification effect

so you would get the equivalent of "Fortify Alchemy 1 pt"

This would be Vanilla-ish and universally useful. Basically it removes the difference between reading the skill book when you have skill 20 and skill 80

I sort of like the idea of reusable skill books with temporary skill gain bonuses because they become sort of utility items, but that would require more brainstorming regarding balance.

[past pendant]

Interesting. But it would be a fortification without any associated item. Weird and requires a special treatment to be preserved.

What about something simple as: You get a gain bonus for the next 10 uses? (Or more)
It's like a nitro mode on a skill, can be cumulative, can be shown in the stats menu with an '*' next to the skill name

[hoary trellis]

and then you can reapply the bonus? In that case 10 uses would be far too little. It's like... 10 weapon hits.

[past pendant]

yes: "or more"

if you read another skill book before you consumed your 10 uses, it just adds to the total

like you had 5 remaining uses, you now have 15

[hoary trellis]

I don't think it's weird, though. There are some quests which give some sort of small permament buffs.

[past pendant]

yeah but maybe they have a specific spell for that, with a name

I cannot dynamically generate spells yet

[hoary trellis]

yes it's a spell effect

with constant effect

I will just say that it would be 100% Vanilla friendly and very simple in principle

but technical implementation is another story 😄

[past pendant]

indeed

[hoary trellis]

none of that is important, though

it's not that sth is not working right now

so it's a nice to have thing, not critical 😉

[past pendant]

agreed

[past pendant]

I'd like to have @spark pawn opinion on that

NCGDMW hotfix 4.1.3 released!

• Fixed broken health setting

that release should fix the settings for any of your game saves

@scarlet depot you'll tell me

now, I still want to improve the skill reduction settings.
Currently it's not clear enough, nor flexible enough

I'd like to simplify it to 2 values:

• From: Factor at skill level 1
• To: Factor at skill level 100
  Examples:
• from vanilla to 1/8 (gains at skill level 1 are vanilla, and gains at skill level 100 are divided by 8)
• from 1/2 to 1/8
• from x2 to 1/8

Currently, from vanilla to 1/8 is problematic, as your major skills already are affected by the exponential reduction: Gains of a skill level 30 are divided by 1.63

If I had "from" values above 1, we can compensate that difficulty.
For example, with "from" 2 and "to" 1/8, gains of a skill level 30 would be divided only by 1.175

And gains of lower skills would be increased, but I think it's ok as it's already frustrating to make them raise naturally

Also currently, if you set 1/2 to the constant setting and 1/4 to the exponential one, it's not crystal clear that you have to multiply both values to get the final reduction

[scarlet depot]

I'll test shortly my friend. Ty

[spark pawn]

My question would be: how would that work for a skill like athletics? Some skills would benefit from this change more than others. For example, the skill gains from creating a potion or an enchanted item are much higher than a successful attack with a short blade. A 10 skill use bonus could not work for every skill. The value would have to vary between skills and it would be a nightmare to ensure its balance.

I really wish skill books provided their bonus only if you pick up the book. It would prevent players from going to the Library of Vivec and just skimming through every copy.

[worthy kindle]

Does anyone know if increases to attributes given as quest rewards are calculated into leveling, I know in vanilla they never were

[past pendant]

Indeed it would need some balancing

[past pendant]

I think that can be done with Lua

[past pendant]

Attributes never contribute to player level

Attribute gifts are detected and preserved by NCGDMW

[scarlet depot]

Everything appears to be working properly Mym, gonna run a test character for a more thorough feedback, ty

[molten oyster]

Just updated mid save and was expecting to have to retweak all my scripts settings but they are the same as before. Are these stored in the save game itself? Very nifty.

[past pendant]

There are global settings, and also overrides in game saves. I tried to preserve and update all settings when required in order to provide a smooth and transparent experience during upgrades

[molten oyster]

Very cool!

[worthy kindle]

Sorry, I meant to say skill gifts

[swift hornet]

i missed a lot lol my bad

[molten oyster]

Sometimes when I go to train, I will get the message box saying that my Athletics is limited by major skills even if the trainer isn't offering Athletics training

[past pendant]

Ah yes. They are taken into account as any other skill increases.

[past pendant]

That's because I can only show the message before you click on a skill, thus I inform the player if any of the 3 trained skills are capped.

[molten oyster]

But the trainer wasn't offering any athletics training and I recieved the message

[past pendant]

Ah. Seems like a bug

I detect trained skills by taking the npc's 3 highest level skills, but I wonder what happens when with skills having even level

[brave crane]

there is any possibility to increase skills and attributes over 1000 in lua settings?

[past pendant]

Recently I increased the max values to 9999

[brave crane]

pfff I have Total Overhaul installed and 1000 seem to be locked as value

[brave crane]

you set up that value in game settings? or in a config fine somwhere?

[past pendant]

In game

[brave crane]

OK .... I am confused why on mine setup is locked 😦

I modified and after I click OK and return in menu is still 1000

I f somebody with knowledge could help me will be very nice

I made other modifications in that menu and all sticks .... except that 1000 value

[past pendant]

I might be the only one who can help you 😅
I think you have an old version of NCGDMW

[brave crane]

yes I have OpenMW 0.49dev on Totall overhaul automatic with BETA 6.19.2 mod list

clearly an old version 🙂

but I advanced in game and I don't want to update now and lost my saves

[past pendant]

You're right, other mods updates and MOMW configuration could break things

Maybe ask on the umo thread if you can update a single mod without upgrading others and the configuration

Otherwise you can do a manual update of NCGDMW

[brave crane]

OK I will try this option ...I thought will be more simple 🙂

Is not a must for me to change that 1000 over if is so difficult ..... I wanted just because there is an alchemy mode very restrictive and I tryed to compensate trough NCGDMW 🙂

[past pendant]

Maybe the easiest solution for you is to edit the right file

[brave crane]

yes please 😄 ... what file?

settings.lua ? from .....GAMES\OpenMWMODS\total-overhaul\Leveling\NCGDMWLuaEdition\

this?

[past pendant]

Yes, settings.lua

[brave crane]

I found it and I look inside ...but I wasn't sure is right thing to do 🙂

[past pendant]

Replace every "max = 1000" with "max = 9999" or more

[brave crane]

OKY DOKY Boss ...in a moment 🙂

[past pendant]

Hmmm, also same in the renderers.lua file maybe

[brave crane]

Excellent

Big THANKS man 🙂

[brave crane]

Being determined to cross the 1000 threshold, I didn't notice that you told me 9999 or more .... or more??? ..... what is max, real max 😮 ?

[past pendant]

I don't know, at least billions I suppose. However it's only the setting limit, maybe attributes and skills have lower hard limits in OpenMW

[brave crane]

aha .... OK 🙂 thanks for info .... it's strange to see such high numbers

in this case my character will became insane powerful like those mythical telvani mage

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 4.1.4 released!

• Merged skill progression settings into a single "Skill Gain Factor" setting, simpler, more flexible, and including a gain modification simulator
• Set default skill gain factors to "from 125% to 25%" to ease early game, while reducing skill increases at high levels
• Fixed wrong trainer skills detection when the trainer's 3rd best skill equals his 4th, and similar cases

The new setting and its simulator:

[past pendant]

I think that bug is fixed. It happened when there was no clear 3 best skills for a trainer, e.g. when the 3rd best equals the 4th best. When that happens, OpenMW uses the vanilla skill order (as defined in Morrowind.esm) to select which one should be kept. Now I use the same approach.

[pale sinew]

oh thats really cool

[dawn spindle]

@hoary trellis @past pendant I saw this approach to skill books today and thought of our conversation of 29 March. Some interesting ideas here: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/54571

[past pendant]

Thx for the info! There are good ideas in that mod

[hoary trellis]

Fun mod, some good ideas. The only thing I don't like are the additional permament bonuses from skill books, i.e. things like bonus potion strength. We don't need such player-only buffs as the skills are powerful enough at high lvls as it is. Other stuff is quite cool.

[dawn spindle]

I had pretty much the same take, Cyb. Thanks for your reactions, guys.

[empty topaz]

How does the attribute growth formula work? How many skills should i focus on to raise one attribute? E.g. 2 or 3 weapon skills for strength? Or more/less?

Also: does the exponential reduction of skill gain continue after level 100?

[past pendant]

There is an ods file in the doc directory that details skill impacts on attributes

[past pendant]

It does. You can test with values above 100 in the settings page

[empty topaz]

Hm ok. I might just have a vanilla leveling curve with higher skill decay then, makes reaching high skill levels easier but maintaining them harder.

[hoary trellis]

That's the great thing about customisability

[empty topaz]

Yup. Just gotta Figure out my preferred Settings right now.

[past pendant]

do you prefer a bonus after resting 8h, or a progressive malus after 16h witout rest?

I prefer the malus

because a bonus breaks the skill gain balance we progressively built for NCGD

and 2nd option seems more realistic

(@hoary trellis not sure your message forward gives you a notification)

but we really need some kind of visual notification, so the player don't get frustrated once he realizes he's been playing hours with almost zero progression

[hoary trellis]

either works for me

however, I will note that a bonus is sth that most players will prefer because they will feel less pressured

even though in practice it's more technical than anything else

[past pendant]

yeah, a malus suits more a survival mod....

[hoary trellis]

yep

I will use one

but not everybody does

anyway, I'm fine with both options

[past pendant]

then the best solution is just to disable it by default 😅

[hoary trellis]

sure

I mean, it doesn't hurt anybody

[past pendant]

like decay

[hoary trellis]

you can turn it on

I turned decay on

[past pendant]

I know 🙂

I'm so glad you did it. You're the only one who gave me a real feedback on my complete reworking of the decay approach

[hoary trellis]

I tend to pick the hardest options although I think that early game doesn't need to be much harder because it's fine as it is, i.e. I don't need skill gain to be much slower early on, but it should be slower later on

so all that non-linear stuff is great

[past pendant]

now with the new gain factor setting, you can increase a bit the gains for low skills while reducing gains for high skills

[hoary trellis]

yes, it's very flexible

[past pendant]

and the simulator is so convenient 🥰 😂

[hoary trellis]

still wondering whether there is a way to make training harder because it should take more time (= more skill decay with NCGD, more eating/drinking/sleeping with survival mods, more taxes with tax mod) at higher skill levels but that appears to be impossible with lua

[past pendant]

maybe there is a way to do it with pure mwscript, or with an interaction between mwscript and lua

i'd have to ask around

[hoary trellis]

I like for things to take more time because it's more believable. For example, when I look at what my character achieved in 180 days it often seems too fast. I have no problem with achievements themselves, but it should be harder and take longer

[past pendant]

That was not hard 🙂

thx to you I created my first mwscript

and it interacts with the Lua scripts perfectly

[hoary trellis]

woooaaah

[rocky hemlock]

welcome

[past pendant]

My current formula: time spent = sqrt(base skill level)

[hoary trellis]

meat is back on the menu, boys

[past pendant]

like train to level 16 -> 4 hours

train to level 100 -> 10 hours

is it too kind?

[hoary trellis]

it is per 1 skill point?

[past pendant]

that

[hoary trellis]

ok, so if my calculations are correct, going from 40 to 41 will take about 6 hours of training, while going from 70 to 71 will take 8 hours of training

[past pendant]

yes, plus decimals

I do not round the hours passed

[hoary trellis]

ok

[past pendant]

it's just a proposition. I like sqrts

[hoary trellis]

I would say that it seems a bit on the lowish side for high skill like 70-80 or above, while even 5->6 takes longer than Vanilla's 2 hours

IMO the difference should be a bit higher

[past pendant]

alright

[past pendant]

what would you like at level 100?

how much time

for instance, with 48h at level 100, we could have that curve:

I set the min to one hour

[hoary trellis]

48h for 1 skill point seems overkill

[past pendant]

24?

[hoary trellis]

with survival mods you would actually be starving 😄

[past pendant]

we're talking about level 100 🙂

haha

[hoary trellis]

remember that it's 1 skill point

yes

I think that sth in the range of 18 hours would be ok

for 99->100

[past pendant]

then maybe something linear

[hoary trellis]

going from 90->100 would take some time

10->20 should be much faster in comparison

[hoary trellis]

this is probably the most which would be acceptable with survival mods in mind

but it's probably ok to keep it a lower level

like 16-18, sth like that

[hoary trellis]

much better

[past pendant]

1 for the minimum is ok?

[hoary trellis]

yeah, at lvl 5 you are basically learning how to hold a sword

stick them with the pointy end

that kind of learning

[past pendant]

but 18 doesn't seem round

16 ?

[hoary trellis]

does it matter?

most of these numbers will not be round

[past pendant]

yes, I like round values 😄

[hoary trellis]

as you are not rounding them up

and it's time

so

decimals count

[past pendant]

I mean round like compared to standard values 8, 16, 24, 48...

[hoary trellis]

well if you want it nice and clean then 2->16

so 2 minimum

16 maximum

[past pendant]

standard "time" values

fair enough 🙂

[hoary trellis]

good

if somebody doesn't play with skill decay on, survival mod or tax mod, then there will be little difference for such a player besides the fact that things take longer so immersion may be better (more time will pass in-game on average than without the feature). Now we will have options, though.

this feature may be on by default, I think

[past pendant]

agreed

[hoary trellis]

it's not invasive for non-survival players

while survival players may seek the challenge

[past pendant]

@hoary trellis and for the setting's name: "Scaling Skill Training Duration"?

[hoary trellis]

Training Time Skill Multiplayer?

[past pendant]

multiplayer 😄

[hoary trellis]

Hahaha

[past pendant]

hmm the word scaling helps understand that the multiplier is based on the level

[hoary trellis]

Scaled Training Time?

[past pendant]

skill is implicit I suppose

[dawn spindle]

Progressive Training Duration

I really like this feature you two have designed

[past pendant]

do you think we should inform the player on that extra duration?

could be spamy if shown after each train session

[dawn spindle]

I think a notification for how much time has passed would be appropriate and not too intrusive.

I can't imagine it being achievable to train more than one skill point with a single click.

[past pendant]

no possible indeed

the issue is that openmw only shows max 3 messages at the same time

we already have our recent training cap messages that shows frequently, also the skill raised message, and optionally some attributes increases

if more than 3 messages are shown, the player won't see the first one

[dawn spindle]

~~Almost certainly also impossible to ~~append text to the skillup notification

Or intercept and replace it

[past pendant]

good idea

[dawn spindle]

"Your Security has increased to 50. \nYour training took 5 hours and 30 minutes."

[past pendant]

I think it's possible, because I can cancel the skill increase (as we do for books), and then we could show our own message

by increasing the skill ourselves, I mean

[dawn spindle]

It's a cool prospect 🙂

I hope it pans out.

[dawn spindle]

I generally only run into this limit when loading an old save into the 4.x skill impact regime, or when doing a lot of player->setskilling before re-entering the NCGD menu. Can't recall running into it with other mods or combinations of mods.

I do think that NCGD could be more graceful when there are multiple notifications, by combining the messages by type or maybe even entirely

"You have reached Level 12. Your Strength has increased to 56. Your Endurance has increased to 62."

I am not entirely sure how often 2 different attribute increases occur at the same time with a single skillup.

[hoary trellis]

It happens

I saw it multiple times

[dawn spindle]

I thought so too

I would propose the arduous mathing necessary to spread attribute gains out, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Also, with higher impact scaling factor in options, it will be sometimes (almost?) guaranteed a mathematical inevitability to have multiple attribute gains per skillup.

[dawn spindle]

Combining like this would also clean up the notification log in the NCGD stats screen.

...and allow more information to be displayed within its limited vertical space.

For instance, when I'm changing attribute impacts in 4.x or doing other testing -- times when the notificaion log gets spammed and scrolls off with no way to scroll back to see what happened. Noted that this is outside of normal gameplay.

[past pendant]

I recently merged the attribute messages

But not the skills

[past pendant]

Yeah, that's why I did not put much effort into that

[dawn spindle]

I'm pretty close health-wise to playing again. So many recent updates that taking a week off obsoletes my observations! 😅

What a time to be alive and into modding OpenMW.

[dawn spindle]

Was this part of commit 1db383f8?

[past pendant]

Exactly

To be more accurate, if an attribute grows by more than one point, I hide the previous messages

[dawn spindle]

Would you ever merge notifications for two different attributes that increase at the same time?

^ That is what I meant to suggest.

[past pendant]

Ah, not for different attributes

[past pendant]

I'll focus on that part during my next coding session

Just after finding a way to properly generate both normal and Starwind addons with the new training time feature, with duplicate data

[dawn spindle]

Oof! I always forget about Starwind implications for the mod.

You are a saint.

[past pendant]

Quite often it's 20% of the time to do a feature, and 80% for the settings, localisation, midgame upgrade handling, other add-ons, readme.....

Oh and tests, tests, tests

We need unit testing here 😅

[dawn spindle]

Just code up a test harness for mods rq 😅

[fiery oak]

gnounc has a test framework

Idk if he ever actually published it, I think he did

I remember much wailing and gnashing of teeth during its development

I wanted to try to pull it into main, but haven't had chance to look

[dawn spindle]

That is amazing

[past pendant]

I'm sure it could work. But we code for the fun, and unit testing is not the definition of fun for me, so I get lazy 😅

[past pendant]

And now with the new restrictive alchemy mod there is another message showing up each time you train a skill "you can drink up to 5 potions"

[fiery oak]

How dare you suggest writing tests is not fun !
/s

[past pendant]

fun is subjective

I do have test methodes in Freah Loot but with a very porr coverage

[swift hornet]

hey sorry i've been gone, my wife's anemia has been quite the ordeal

[dawn spindle]

Welcome back, and hope she's on the mend! Now get to testing! 😉

[swift hornet]

She is its just slow going. She's very stubborn and independent and tries to do way too much on her own.

I've been playing all i can and it's awesome.

[swift hornet]

Is there a survival mod for openmw?

That's like actually good? I think cooking in morrowind would be badass

[dawn spindle]

I've been playing all i can and it's awesome.
I have only just been able to playtest some with the new wrist, and am loving it too :grouphug: 😅

[dawn spindle]

Here you go, bud: https://discord.com/channels/260439894298460160/1358542919702937822

[swift hornet]

Does this mod have a link? Like is it released?

[dawn spindle]

That is more for you to hold onto and hope in the meanwhile. Sorry for vaporware bro

*as yet

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 4.1.6 released!

• New feature: Increase the training session time as the skill level gets higher. The duration ranges from 2 to 16 hours at skill level 100 (thx to @hoary trellis's idea) (on by default)
• When multiple attributes or skills increase, show a single message, and only show the last increase for each stat
• Updated Starwind health and health related attributes descriptions

[rough bane]

This setting isn’t in the scripts menu. Does anyone know how to turn it off?

[dawn spindle]

Look for this setting:

[forest linden]

This is really great, played with a modded game with this installed, really enjoying the change. nice work

Not ran into any issues with it, levelling seems a lot slower, but its a nicer pace, at least now, misc skills remain useful, even if they are slower to level. levelling a battle mage, with a mix of heavy armour, / axe and some spells. overall, I really like what this mod does.

[spark pawn]

@past pendant I've been working on a variant of NCGDMW. Some of the main features are updated formulae for leveling, attribute growth, and health as well as Reputation-based Luck. It's mostly complete. I just have to figure out some UI changes. I was wondering if I could post it here for testing purposes while I figure out a few things before release.

[past pendant]

Of course you can post it here. I was not aware of your variant, what was the reasons for creating a separate mod?

NCGDMW is already very customizable, we could have think on new settings

[spark pawn]

I wanted to create a mod modeled after one of my favourite Oblivion mods, Ultimate Leveling. NCGDMW is very customizable and has a great base, but as it currently stands I couldn't quite achieve what I was going for without making some edits to the lua scripts. I got to learning lua, made the changes I wanted, and eventually thought of some other things I could add. It finally culminated in NCGDMW Ultimate Leveling.

Some of the objectives were to make starting player choices more important throughout your playthrough, add a new way to grow Luck based on reputation, make the formulae a little more easily understood and customizable, and to adjust the current skill attribute distribution in NCGDMW 4.0.

I used this excel spreadsheet to adjust the distribution

[past pendant]

Alright, I think it would really help to have a clear description of the differences with "classical" NCGDMW

[spark pawn]

health is now based on this formula:

(strength + endurance / 2) * healthMultiplier + [(startEndurance + baseEndurance) * (playerLevel - 1) * retroactiveHealthMultiplier]

Attribute growth now has factors based on skill specialization, favored attributes, and race attributes

Player Level is now calculated as a percentage of total skill level divided by potential skill level

That I'd say sums up most of the big deviations.

[past pendant]

thx. I also meant in your mod's doc 🙂

[spark pawn]

I'll definitely include it in the mod's description. I just wanted some feedback on the tuning before shipping it.

[past pendant]

you could ask to @scarlet depot @dawn spindle @hoary trellis @swift hornet

[hoary trellis]

@spark pawn The changes seem massive when it comes to attribute growth. Very hard to give extensive feedback with no testing in this case. The philosophy seems to be different. Some of the stuff was mostly eliminated from the latest NCGD version like these random attribute growth distributions, while you seem to be going that way in order to spread points evenly. Therefore, you have things like Mercantile and Conjuration increasing STR or Block, Spear and Heavy Armor increasing INT. Relputation-based Luck will probably interest some people. All in all it fits a submod, but personally I prefer current NCGD approach. Just a matter of preference 😄

[forest linden]

I also prefer the current system, maybe in a new playhtough at some point, it might be worth testing, but that will be some way off, I like the current mod rate of growth and the way it levels. as a sub mod, or a choice, in the settings, maybe. Anyway, that's my view.

[hoary trellis]

yeah the problem with testing this stuff thoroughly is that you need to play quite a bit. It's not enough to just jump in and play a couple of hours.

[forest linden]

indeed

unless you cheat, but even that, that will give random results and might not give you a balanced playthough

or the results that the author wants

I think for that reason, getting testers to test this sub mod will be hard

[hoary trellis]

yeah, cheating can you the general idea of attribute growth etc., but it doesn't represent true gameplay experience

[forest linden]

I know

[hoary trellis]

well, I guess that the author may also test the mod himself. After all, the primary motivation for a submod is often personal preference

[forest linden]

beta tested a game that we were too relient on cheat keys to do stuff, when those cheat keys were disabled, we found a lot of bugs that he hadn't found before, and some even the devs didn't believe us

[hoary trellis]

interesting

but it makes sense

[forest linden]

X3 space trading game

then again, the devs weren't that good and there coding was sloppy

but thats another story

so yeah, don't get too comfy with using cheats to test stuff, is the moral of that story

[hoary trellis]

even if coding is good, there are a lot of things that only come out during "real" playthroughs. This is especially true for Morrowind which is a game with great freedom of exploration. You can guess the state of the player character in Seyda Neen, but after that many things can happen. Also, while you can easily set your skills to whatever value you want by console, you can't gauge actual pace of player progression that way. You won't know whether leveling seems too fast or too slow, for example. Also, while it's rather easy to make some tests for early game, accurate tests for mid- and late-game are hard to pull off.

and of course it's also hard to say how quickly the player can reliably access and afford trainers and how impactful skill decay will be

[forest linden]

very true, would take at least a week to test, its taken me at least that to get where I am

2 weeks

level 26

not enabled decay yet, but plan too at some point

[hoary trellis]

how many hours btw?

[hoary trellis]

you see, this also impacts things because decay has no impact in the beginning of the game, but gradually starts slowing you down later on. At first the effects are rather low. Then they become more impactful

[forest linden]

76 hours

[hoary trellis]

hah, that's as much as I have in my entire Kingdom Come Deliverance 1 playthrough so far 😆

[forest linden]

maybe on another playthough I might enable decay, but so far, I like the current levelling pace

[hoary trellis]

sure

[forest linden]

haven't been devoted to playing one game for a while

I played openmw a while back, around 0.4x early, but not touched it since.

[hoary trellis]

my last Morrowind character has 300+ hours on the counter

I returned to the game after sth like... 15 years or more

[forest linden]

I had an old save that had me at level 49

it was a while for me

openmw has brought me back, especailly with the recent enhancements and the lua changes. include this mod who channel we are on

[hoary trellis]

I haven't even played OpenMW before

now it's fully functional and quite developed

it's still way behind in terms of scripting when compared with MSWE, though

[forest linden]

this is true

but I would never go back to vanilla, that just a crash fest for me, while it has better mod support, its an outdated engine, and I suspect a lot of authors have moved onto openmw, being more stable

or waiting for better support before they jump on

[past pendant]

and with openmw's community, we've got high quality curated mod lists 🙂

[forest linden]

indeed

so its growing

[hoary trellis]

yes, this is a big help if you are trying to return to the game

much better option than searching YouTube and reddit for various lists which are often outdated

[past pendant]

even if you do your own search, it will take like forever to build your mod setup, and you won't even get MOMW patches

[forest linden]

there was a mod list called total overhaul V3, for vanilla, but that had a few problems, I dont think the person fully got the permission from every mod author, and B, some mods did conflict, and was never solved, and some had dirty files, I tried it once, but its very likely heavy outdate now. not sure if the site is still running

but being on an outdated engine has its own problems

[past pendant]

the guy was doing it alone, that's the main issue

[forest linden]

you know the thing I was refering about, good, I thought it had help, but if as you say, he was alone, that clearly was another issue

[hoary trellis]

there are also mods like Morrowind Rebirth which try to do everything

[past pendant]

no I don't 😅 I just thought you were implying that

[past pendant]

a big monolithic mod has many disadvantages

a single contributor mod too

[hoary trellis]

yeah

I think so as well

it's why I rarely use total overhaul mods

[forest linden]

you really need a team for best results and an army of beta testers

[past pendant]

and with a team, if someone is busy IRL, there are other people to continue the support

[forest linden]

yup

anyway, need to go for a bit

[spark pawn]

The testing doesn't need to be that thorough. Of course, in such a short span of time I can't ask someone to give feedback for the breadth of an entire playthrough. I was mostly looking for comparisons between current NCGDMW and NCGDMW Ultimate Leveling on existing saves. Whether you think attributes and player level are more focused or less. That kind of thing.

I also wanted to know if the default values in the settings page fit or could do with some adjustment.

[forest linden]

Sorry, but, you need to extensively test this mod, for the reasons given, short term testing won't give you the data you need. otherwise, you won't know if you level too fast or too slow, or the attribute aren't levelling up as you planned. you can't do this quickly, otherwise, your missing the point of such a mod

[spark pawn]

I didn't edit anything related to skill progression, so that shouldn't be an issue. And loading it on an existing save should automatically adjust attribute distribution.

[forest linden]

but that is the issue, attribute distribution, which is based on skill use.

[spark pawn]

If you're loading NCGDMW Ultimate Leveling on an existing save, you'll already know which skills you focused and which skills were ignored during the couse of your playthrough. I just want to see if your skill investment in an existing save is accurately reflected in your attribute growth which should adjust upon loading the save. Ideally, someone would provide screenshots of the NCGD stats menu using current NCGDMW and after downloading NCGDMW Ultimate Leveling.

Also maybe screenshots after playing around with default values in the setting page to see if they like the tuning or if it could do with some changes.

[spark pawn]

Also, I did test myself to ensure the mod wasn't a shambles. Of course, I probably didn't account for every edge case, but those things don't usually crop up until after release anyways.

[spark pawn]

Do you have the NCGD stats menu?

[forest linden]

first one the orignal version, second is yours

one sec

from yours

int takes a major nose dive

level 19!? not good

[spark pawn]

This is because you didn't really focus any intelligence-governed skills as either major or minor skills or with skill investment

[spark pawn]

The level calculation relies on a new max level that I based off of the maximum potential level that could be achieved in vanilla morrowind which is around 75.

In order, to achieve that maximum level of 75 you would need to reach max skill level in all skills (major, minor, misc) which is not something I think most people will be doing. Ideally. by the end of your playthrough you should reach around level 50 if you focus leveling major and minor skills.

[forest linden]

I still prefer NCGDMW lua edition levelling, as I got better attribute all around, then again, I more more focused on heavy armour and axe, and using sneak and security when needed, otherwise, I use a spell to unlock stuff

only recently am I using trainers to level up some more misc skills

[spark pawn]

NCGDMW Ultimate Leveling is meant to be more punishing. There are fewer free attributes going around without proper investment. Attributes start lower across the board and require greater focus with class and race choices.

[forest linden]

understandable, but not for me

I mean some skills already level up real slow to being with, like enchant

and sneak is a bit of a tough one to level

[spark pawn]

One of the major complaints of veteran players is that after a few playthroughs the game get to be too easy. I wanted to find something that caters to that type of player.

[forest linden]

again understood, but I like the current leveling pace as it stands, and there is also decay, that also brings down skills after a while, that helps to balance stuff

even though I not enabled that that

and then there is also TR main , some of that content is quite trickly unless you level up a lot, like the siege of firemoth, end boss is level 50,

and some of the sub bosses are also a bit of a pain

I tried to do that seige of firemoth at level 17 then 22, and still got my behind kicked

[spark pawn]

You can adjust the max level in the settings page. I'd set it to around 4/3 of whatever level you plan on reaching by the end of your playthrough. For example if you plan on reaching level 75, set max level to 100. Doing so should adjust your current level.

[forest linden]

I was trying to play the game without adjusting the settings and seeing how I progress. and I like the progresss I'm making

anyway need to go

[hoary trellis]

Is max lvl even relevant with uncapped skills and attributes?

[spark pawn]

Skills are capped at 100 in ultimate leveling

[hoary trellis]

Btw the sharp calculated lvl drop is actually quite relevant. It will affect many leveled lists. In @forest linden case, he would face less threatening enemies in many places. A bit worse loot when it's leveled as well. Here is when it gets tricky. If the submod calculated the level as 19, then it's hard to say how it would impact his encounters during the previous 78 hrs. This is just sth to consider when evaluating gameplay experience.

[spark pawn]

This isn't as relevant in Morrowind as it is in a game like Oblivion. In Morrowind, changes to enemies based on player level are minuscule. You might encounter more infected and blighted versions of creatures, but that's about it. As for level lists, I believe player level only affects merchant lists.

[hoary trellis]

Yes, there is no lvl scaling. You are wrong on other accounts

[forest linden]

I would rather play with decay enabled then use the sub mod, so I wont bother playing that, maybe it will have some interest for vets, but not for me

[hoary trellis]

You may encounter a scamp or a storm atronach, for example, depending on lvl

[forest linden]

also levelled loot I think is a factor on player level

[hoary trellis]

Yep

In many places