NCGDMW Lua Edition

[void roost]

i can

enchanted weapon and no power to use 😄

[dawn spindle]

Would be horrible punishment for not following the rules of NCGD character building lol

Pop a window for each:

[past pendant]

Thx for thinking on that🙂

I don't think I can set colors in those notifications though

[past pendant]

The alternative would be a small window in a corner, with all the colors you want, and which disappear when you leave the training dialogue

[past pendant]

Are there 1 or 2 notifications in your image?

[dawn spindle]

2

I'm just mocking up in Calc

My normal text color is way off lol.

[past pendant]

I just worry it could overlap with potential other windows added by mods

[dawn spindle]

Can't imagine which other window matters during training...

[past pendant]

Then you can get up to 3 notifications in a row, which spams the system a bit. For example, if you had other non NCGD notifications, they may disappear quicker than you want

[dawn spindle]

Note that the second one is a double-service notification.

[past pendant]

Me neither actually

[dawn spindle]

Also, having three is extreme edge case so wrong

...a condensation of this

[past pendant]

If I do it in a dedicated window, we can be more prolific

[dawn spindle]

Whole different interface design

List all the skills, sorted by value. Color by category.

[past pendant]

I'd like the word "skill" somewhere 🙂

[past pendant]

Oh, just one to three skills, only the capped ones

What about just:
NCGD: Destruction won't go over major skills

[dawn spindle]

"NCGD: Destruction training limited by Major skills."

[past pendant]

Multiple notifications may be ok if I add them to NCGD log messages in the stats menu

[past pendant]

I like that one!

BTW, currently I only display those messages once per trainer

But if you go see another trainer and come back to the first one, you'll get the messages again

Maybe I'll also remove the heading "NCGDMW:"

kind of immersion breaking

you don't get it for attribute increases for instance

[dawn spindle]

Skip the Colors. Maj/Min/Misc headings instead, yep.

With > signs above the second two headings if you want to be cheeky

[past pendant]

with your last short message, notifications are fine

[past pendant]

"limited" -> "is capped"?

[dawn spindle]

I think I went with "limited" to try to sound a little nicer, but it affords no additional clarity over "is capped".

[past pendant]

I get the idea, thx, but seems overkill to me

[dawn spindle]

Too much sherbet, no problem

I~~'m~~ just ideatinged overmuch, but I cleaned up~~ in case any of it is useful. Holding off now~~! 🙂

[past pendant]

thx so much

[dawn spindle]

"Speechcraft capped by Major skill." <--All that's truly needed is this popup

[dawn spindle]

Wish I hadn't missed this! 🤣 All of them when entering training menu, and individually again if the user tries anyway.

[past pendant]

Oh, sorry 😅

[swift hornet]

Haven't found any bugs with the new version yet. I've been trying too

[swift hornet]

bug still here, lucas varro at least just breaks all the training rules

block is a misc skill and i can just train it to 100 with him

it doesn't even do a message

[dawn spindle]

Larrius Varro's block training as a misc skill is appropriately blocked for me.

[swift hornet]

weird, i literally just trained it to 100. even after updating with the archive

and everything else works as intended.

[dawn spindle]

I started a mage and coc'd to Larius.

[swift hornet]

maybe console commanding a different misc skill messes it up?

but that seems weird, because after doing that, other block trainers still don't let me train it past 15

[dawn spindle]

Should be fine as long as you open the NCGD stat window afterward.

[swift hornet]

but lucas does still

[dawn spindle]

I really think you mean Larrius Varro, but I can't be sure.

[swift hornet]

yeah my bad that guy

[dawn spindle]

You use a momw list?

[swift hornet]

yes, i manually updated and replaced the files and i know i'm not the archive version

because all the other settings work

[dawn spindle]

Wondered if you had a mod I don't

[swift hornet]

ill make some videos showing it.

first video here i try to push past my lowest skill of 15 and i get the message and get stopped accordingly.

second video, i try to push past 15, i get no message at all, and i'm also able to train all i want. I don't go to 100 in the video, but i absolutely can.

[dawn spindle]

A note @mym that I think the popup should be shown again if the player tries to re-enter training window and train the same skill.

Yah Nerd, I have not been able to break it like that yet.

[swift hornet]

i'm just very unsure what is causing it, it was part of my buglist before this most recent archive.

i went right from that first video to the second

nothing in between, no skill ups or anything like that either.

[dawn spindle]

Oh yeah videos often aren't supported in Discord in the browser on my desktop, but I believe you.

[swift hornet]

wait it wont play for you? darn :/

[dawn spindle]

I got it to work by downloading and installing the Discord app, but it didn't show me anything you hadn't already described well enough.

[past pendant]

Did you use a game save done with an old archive?

[swift hornet]

no, totally fresh save

new game

the two videos i sent are form a totally new save with the new archive

[past pendant]

I should add a log for the training cap, it should help understanding

[dawn spindle]

To log which event?

[past pendant]

I mean console log (not NCGD stats menu log) with info on player and merchant skill values

[dawn spindle]

That is some robust software designin' right there 👍

[past pendant]

I can't code without logs in Lua. All my mods have a setting to enable them, and they produce a lot of them

[past pendant]

@dawn spindle I quickly tested a new ratio for "racial flexibility" and it's very easy to implement, but requires adjustments to be balanced for every ratio

[dawn spindle]

Awesome! Can't wait to check it out.

[past pendant]

I have found a satisfying setting name though

BTW, you told me that the beta version was more severe on attribute values?

[dawn spindle]

No spoilers!

[dawn spindle]

vs. expanded-vanilla version? This was shown in my screenshots.

[past pendant]

Sorry: I have NOT found 😅

[dawn spindle]

"Racial Fidelity"

How true-to-race is the character.

As long as you don't go all nazi about it I guess

[past pendant]

It's not only about the race, but also the favored attributes

[dawn spindle]

Aha.

Nature vs. Nurture

But favored attributes are nurture more than nature. Hmmm.

Occupational Adaptability is horrible

Corporeal Kismet is still horrible

[past pendant]

Starting Attributes Impact

Or Preservation

Less poetic 😅

[dawn spindle]

In a way it describes how heavily to reroll attributes.

Reroll Factor

Attribute Reroll Factor

[past pendant]

+Attributes

Yes

But I have a formula issue

It worked well with slow attribute growth

With normal and fast, the attributes get buffed the more you increase the reroll

I have to improve the formula, if possible

The previous formula worked well because it did not have to adapt to different reroll values

[dawn spindle]

Just normalize to the charsheet totals. Do thi by a factor so oldschoolers can keep their feels.

[past pendant]

Like to preserve the total sum?

[dawn spindle]

Yes, just make sure attribute row totals the same. Or interpolate halfway there if the Cheat Factor is set to .5

[past pendant]

Seems a good idea. But we'll lose the vanilla like attribute increases per skill increase I meticulously defined

[dawn spindle]

The Cheat Factor is really just an olive branch to the players who will wail and gnash teeth when NCGD doesn't buff attributes like it used to.

[dawn spindle]

Oof.

[past pendant]

Hum maybe I just have to do a dynamic normalization that adapts to the skill growth

[dawn spindle]

Don't get a point in every any attribute every skillup anyway

A lot of hidden decimals, just as it is now, no?

[past pendant]

Meaning: whatever the reroll factor and the skill growths, it has to produce the same sum than if the reroll was zero

[dawn spindle]

Yes, keep the ratios between rerolled attributes, and normalize them to base chargen total of attributes.

Rounding the attributes might even be fine.

[past pendant]

Yes, but not only to chargen values: to any player progression state

[dawn spindle]

Ah yes so one needs to normalize to "what Slow would have been".

[past pendant]

Yes, rounded, because only rounded values are used in the end

[past pendant]

🤯

I'm losing it

[dawn spindle]

Always calculate Slow progression, but only use it for attribute total normalization when playing Normal/Fast.

[past pendant]

Can we even do it?

[dawn spindle]

Always calculate all three progressions, and allow the player to switch.

[past pendant]

Something seems wrong and I'm getting tired. I'll sleep on that 😉

[dawn spindle]

I will brush up on the docs meanwhile.

[past pendant]

Keep in mind that with reroll at 0, all growth speed produce the same vanilla attributes at level 1

[dawn spindle]

Code is on github?

[past pendant]

Gitlab

Link at the bottom of the doc

But the code is also in the archive

Not compiled eh 😉

[dawn spindle]

Nice to have the history. 🙂

[past pendant]

Oh and my current work is on the branch new_player_level

Good night

[dawn spindle]

Dors bien.

[past pendant]

Can't sleep yet, I have an idea: whatever the 2 settings (reroll and growth), the luck has to stay at the chargen value when starting the game. If not, then we add or remove the same value to all attributes to restore the luck.
That way, with an addition and not a normalization (multiplication), future growth magnitudes will respect the vanilla-like increases I defined before the reroll ratio.

Luck is a good value because it always has an impact of 1

And it's not impacted by major/minor/misc new factors

[dawn spindle]

Peg it to Luck, sounds good. It is the same curve in all cases, yes?

Already have a ruler to measure by, so no need to do all that crazy normalizing

[past pendant]

NCGDMW 3.6.4 released!

• Fixed Starwind addon wrongly removed
• Fixed Starwind date in the stats menu
• Removed Starwind name setting as it's automatically detected
• Detect more incompatible plugins

[void roost]

but when level affected by top10 skills?

because, as I understand, 3.6.4 is only minor update, not major witch changes what you discuss here

[past pendant]

Yeah minor, but awaited fixes

I'm still on the next version

I'd like to also add a new setting to set how much chargen attributes are kept VS how much skills impact attributes

[dawn spindle]

Another random feature idea for you would be the ability to use Vanilla governing attributes (as all 7's instead of 4-2-1's). Very niche, and maybe a giant pain, but there you go. 🎁

[past pendant]

Ha ha thx for that gift

I don't think it fits NCGD's spirit

[dawn spindle]

I'm elbow deep balancing governing attributes right now. 🧑‍🏭

[past pendant]

I was starting to think you gave up on this

[dawn spindle]

It was simmering? 😊
Fun puzzle, anyway. 🧩

[past pendant]

I'm finishing improvements on Fresh Loot, then I'll go back to NCGD.
But I need to do a BIG refactoring because that code is too old and not easy to bend and update

[dawn spindle]

#1226608966612553749 message
I want to stress this. It's very easy to miss, and I already know it's supposed to be there!

[charred geyser]

illest503

A note @mym that I think the popup should be shown again if the player tries to re-enter training window and train the same skill.

Linked by @​illest503 from #NCGDMW Lua Edition · Mar 19, 2025, 2:51 AM

[past pendant]

I cannot show something when the player click on a skill to train

[dawn spindle]

Tough one. 🤔

[past pendant]

The player will get a vanilla message "I cannot train you more" anyway

I think it's enough

[swift hornet]

Is there any idea what's causing that bug i sent the videos about? Where you can just train regardless of cap?

[past pendant]

Sorry I forgot about that.
Was it done with my last beta?
Did you use a game save from the previous beta?

[swift hornet]

yes it was your last beta

no it was a fresh save

[past pendant]

Alright I'll look closer ASAP

[past pendant]

Please remind me: was it a misc skill? Is there something specific to reproduce it each time?

[swift hornet]

yes it was a misc skill, it was block. idk if it is block specifically, but larrius varo was just able to train it all the way to 100

this video is the training cap working as intended.

this is Larrius varo training me as high as i like. This was on the same new game from the last beta.

[past pendant]

Wait, the first video is NOT from the last beta?

[swift hornet]

it is

they both are, it's the same save from the latest beta

[past pendant]

Weird. What did you do between the 2 situations?

Maybe it's the game load that breaks something

[swift hornet]

Nothing. I went over to varro, no skills increased and there was no combat.

[swift hornet]

Maybe. Can you try to replicate it?

[past pendant]

I'll try ASAP

Family time

[dawn spindle]

There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth when the feature is new, because it doesn't state why not.

Sucks not being able to detect training. It can detect when it enters the training window -- can it watch the skills while in the training window and detect training that way?

[past pendant]

There is a message that appears each time you start a training series. And that message also appears in NCGD's logs

I detect the training window. What I can't do is detecting when the player clicks on the skill

[dawn spindle]

Not even by tracking the skill values while in the window? Dang.

[swift hornet]

If you cant replicate it. I'll be very sad because idk how it's only happening to me. I can't think of a conflict.

[past pendant]

I know when the skill is updating, which is after the window is closing

But why the message showing when the training window opens is not satisfying to you?

[dawn spindle]

I miss it almost every time ><

[past pendant]

Uninstall Adblock

[dawn spindle]

To be fair, it's only been like twice. 😁

[past pendant]

I show the message once per trainer

If you see trainer A, then B, then A, you'll see the message again with A

[dawn spindle]

Sounds good. 👍

Hey, I just noticed the Skill Use Type Gains Settings...

[past pendant]

Yeah I'm very proud of that one. Quite simple, but very efficient

[dawn spindle]

I welcome any and all feedback! 🙇‍♂️

[dawn spindle]

`v.03 changes

• Traded 1 Wil from Illusion to Conjuration for 1 Per
• Reordered rows for max chim`

[dawn spindle]

`v.04 changes

• Block trades to Armorer 1 End for 1 Agi.
• Governing attributes are now vanilla, except:
  -- Wisdom: Conjuration and Mysticism
  -- Intelligence: Alteration`

[past pendant]

You did a great job with this impact distribution.
My only complaint is about the totals (at the bottom) which are not balanced per attribute as it is currently

The consequence will be for some profiles to end up with less total attributes than others

I understand that the vanilla system also does that, but NCGD is supposed to fix original balance issues, IMHO

[dawn spindle]

When NCGD first landed, it threw out a few babies with the bathwater:

• vanilla balance of attribute gains in STR vs. END/PER - note also that this fixes serious inconsistencies/bad corners in arranging the table of impacts
• vanilla balance of how many skills are governed by each skill
• certain vanilla skills not being governed by skills used in their skill checks on purpose
• the one-attribute-per-skill conditions that provided delicious puzzle solving at chargen to sculpt your future character
  Losing the rest-to-level and weird inverted min-max strategies was great. Adding more nuance than single attributes-per-skill was great. Some of the elimination of vanilla constraints made chargen more flexible but also easier and less mindful -- not necessarily better.

The original 4-2-1 impact distribution comes with many limitations and weird illogical or design-breaking corners in the arrangement of impacts to attributes. My work here is an attempt to improve on it and break free of those logistical chains toward a more "realistic" attribute distribution that also brings some of the good back from vanilla. I don't think all of the vanilla decisions were understood when NCGD was developed. This really shows in the mutilation of governing skills with no regard for balance, only simplification. There is a lot of value and consideration that went into vanilla's system that was lost. I largely agree with the criticisms of vanilla's choices, but there is more than one way to skin a cat! 🐈

I forgot to thank you for your feedback! Thanks! 😊

[past pendant]

Thx for taking them time to develop a clear and detailed explanation

I have to admit that I cannot evaluate the real impact of unbalanced attribute coefficients

[dawn spindle]

I feel I can evaluate the impact of 27s across the bottom, because I played a lot pre-NCGD. It was a recent epiphany when I realized they had changed it to all 27s for no apparent good reason, and in the face of what was clearly an intentional design

The impact of all 27s is bad because it unbalances what had previously been balanced. Original NCGD rocked my world and I love it to this day, but I assert that it was (at least in good part) a gutting and a dumbing-down of some systems and designs that were not garbage at all.

[past pendant]

What you say makes sense. Even though you don't provide factual arguments.
I'd like to have other opinions on that. @shut wedge

[dawn spindle]

I'd love to hear from Johnny! I suppose I might end up saving time if I write everything up in more detail. The debate becomes philisophical at some point.

We all know those mods that wreck balance and are cheaty by nature. "Unlimited Enchant Capacities", "No More Equipment Wear-and-Tear", etc. We need 0% of that spirit in NCGD, and I'm afraid there was some in the original.

I mean, when you look at what happens to MOMW list characters that update to the current beta, and you can see just how much gravy NCGD has been distributing to players. I believe that some portion of the issues with balancing MOMW come from NCGD itself.

just how much gravy
This is already well-addressed in the current beta, by the way.

🗒️ I will be unable to type to defend my thesis for a couple of weeks starting Tuesday the 25th.

[dawn spindle]

It's a lot to provide preemptively. I think qualified opiners will reach the same conclusions simply by analyzing the less-obvious differences between vanilla and NCGD.

[past pendant]

Differences between vanilla and NCGD don't matter. Balance does.
I just want all classes to see their attributes progress fairly, without significant discrepancies

I mean, discrepancies on their usefulness in Morrowind mechanics

[spark pawn]

I don't mind the skill-attribute distribution as it stands now, but is there a reason why the amount each skill contributes to attributes has to have a total of 8? There's an Oblivion mod with similar ideas and they distribute attributes a little differently.

[dawn spindle]

I don't see why this is necessarily bad. I don't see it as a flaw in Vanilla. Obviously intentional.

[past pendant]

So, you're saying that it's ok if pure mages die far more often and cannot carry anything and move like snails?

[dawn spindle]

I offer a flipbook slideshow for comparing my proposal, NCGD, and Vanilla.

[dawn spindle]

Mages get plenty of speed from Unarmored and Short B. or H2H. I have another slideshow for you guys, hold on

[past pendant]

Speed is nothing when you need to carry things

[dawn spindle]

That's what feather is for! Play the game right, don't us a mod that flattens characters and makes them samey! 8P

[past pendant]

I get your point 🙂

[dawn spindle]

Some stock classes under 0.3

[past pendant]

@swift hornet I'd like your opinion on that new attribute impact distribution

[dawn spindle]

Me too.

[past pendant]

Thanks, that's really helpful. I'd like the total attributes though 😁

[swift hornet]

I just woke up like 4 minutes ago lemme read it all. Man this is a discussion lol.

[dawn spindle]

?? You have the totals for each class, and the totals for the whole table never change from vanilla unless they are displayed.

[past pendant]

No worries 🙂 I gave you the first post from where to read

[swift hornet]

What I'm gathering here is you want each attribute to contribute 8 instead of 7?

[dawn spindle]

They always have and will contribute 8 (because luck always 1)

[swift hornet]

Yeah, that's the departure from the current system right? Like I'm making sure im not misunderstanding

[dawn spindle]

Negative

[swift hornet]

Okay lol explain please

[dawn spindle]

Proposed departures from current NCGD

• skill impacts are not limited to 4-2-1 format
• fewer-to-no logically indefensible skill/attribute associations
  ** thereby less "flattening" of characters into everymen
• governing attributes from vanilla that had purpose are restored
• Make Character Design Meaningful Again™

[swift hornet]

Okay,

How are there not limited?

What logically indefensible skill/attribute associations?

I understand not making everyone into everymen. I'd push for making misc skills contribute even less to attributes, like 20-30% instead of 40% because there are so many.

I do like this about govorning attributes. Because it is weird that it's basically wasted text as is.

Im ALL about preparation and early choices mattering. Gives replay value.

[dawn spindle]

Here is an example of how a more nuanced impact distribution's description might read.

How are there not limited?
Look at the second slidehow back, it's visually apparent. Can be 3-2-1-1, 2-2-2-1, 5-2, etc. Not just 4-2-1

[swift hornet]

That reads VERY well. Also speaking of block specifically. I wanted to ask something. @past pendant how does a skill like this work when overcap is turned on? Like what if you have 300 block? Do you just block every attack no matter what?

[past pendant]

There is a GMST that controls max chance to block, 50% by default I think

[swift hornet]

I'd only ask how you decided on those numbers in particular? Like what makes that more balanced i guess?

[dawn spindle]

What logically indefensible skill/attribute associations?
Too many to list! Just a few examples:

• WIL for Med. Armor
• PER for Security
• AGI for Illusion
• END for Restoration and Alchemy
  I think if you think about these, you will start to see them everywhere.
  NCGD took a lot of liberties with what exactly the skills are supposed to represent.

[swift hornet]

So once you hit 50% block chance does raising block not matter except for attributes? Genuinely curious.

[dawn spindle]

That's the artistry. 🙂 I can't teach you how to see it.

[swift hornet]

I think the biggest reason for this was to make sure literally every possible build had HP and stats that mattered. That's why Willpower gives HP.

[past pendant]

https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Research:Combat#Blocking_with_a_shield
😁

[swift hornet]

I mean that's a good enough answer. Any answer is good enough here lol. I was just curious.

[dawn spindle]

I understand not making everyone into everymen. I'd push for making misc skills contribute even less to attributes, like 20-30% instead of 40% because there are so many.
There are many factors that go into this, including beta features. I have thought along the same lines, but with all of maj/min/misc.

[past pendant]

It depends on the enemy weapon skill and agility, so it's still useful to boost it for high level enemies

[dawn spindle]

Agreed, and this was a huge step backwards. My design gives skills to get where you need to be later for stats, you just have to choose them wisely.

[swift hornet]

Yes i just learned that thanks to illest503. 😆

[dawn spindle]

One overarching goal is to salvage some of the value that was lost from Vanilla when NCGD came in.

[swift hornet]

I think major and minor contribution is fine for the most part. I just think misc shouldn't be so prevalent in your development. I mean misc skills having half the attribute impact as a minor skill when there's only 5 minor skills and over 3 times as many misc skills feels weird.

[swift hornet]

Hey I'm all for it. All I care about in regards to HP is that the strength and Willpower HP contribution remain unchanged, and it stays retroactive. It's the primary system in vanilla that I despise.

[dawn spindle]

Balance is too vague a term to serve as a goal here. Like I said, I can't teach it. You'd need to look and ponder until you get it.

Compare some of the Class builds I shared and try to think how they would play.

[swift hornet]

Oh im good. I've been looking over it. I just wanted the easy explanation because my brain wasn't all the way on.

[past pendant]

I don't want to nerf misc skills too much only because there are players who abuse them. Because I'd then penalize reasonable players who just want a small attribute boost thanks to misc skills

[dawn spindle]

Ideally, ponder why I made certain choices, and prove me wrong or less-than-optimal on something.

[swift hornet]

It stays small though. Like I'm not talking about abuse. I'm just talking about playing normally. There's only 5 minor skills and way more misc skills. Most players are just gonna get more attributes from their misc skills than minor skills. Just because of the ratios and raw number of them

Because many quests will just require it

[dawn spindle]

Training caps in beta have this covered already anyway.

[swift hornet]

Except for me specifically because I still have that bug 😆

[swift hornet]

Idk if I can prove you wrong or anything. The only really hard skills to balance are the pure utility skills that don't do anything in any combat situation.

[dawn spindle]

In reality, these are used to creatively complete the balancing of the rest.

[past pendant]

I don't think most players will do that. But if we reduce too much misc skills impacts on attributes, then it's like zeroing the impacts for most players, because they will not abuse misc skills.

[dawn spindle]

It's no abuse to level up minor, and then major, skills to lift the cap for misc skills.

[past pendant]

I could accept to set minor impacts to 100% though

[dawn spindle]

Yes, Major/Minor is where I saw the need too.

My gut said 2/3 and 1/3 impacts

Or, 2:1 anyway

[dawn spindle]

It is hard to abuse misc skills, and getting harder. They level like molasses, and soon their training will be capped. I guess there is always running into a corner AFK with Athletics as a misc. I think that's the unique skill for AFK cheese without at least an autoclicker.

I considered making Athletics "wider" for that reason, but I think I like where it is at. Players will be rewarded by better variety of Major/Minor with the next version of NCGD whether or not my results here are a part of it!

[swift hornet]

Im not talking about abuse at all. There's just a real number of quests in morrowind that randomly require misc skills being leveled right? Depending on build.

They will just level in general due to that

And a bunch of misc skills leveling a few times will give quite a bit of attributes solely because there's so many. That's my only angle.

Im not talking about people abusing anything

[dawn spindle]

Not all characters should necessariliy be able to do every quest and master every faction in a reasonable amount of time...

Making a rando character should not be a golden ticket to all of the content in the game.

[swift hornet]

Im not saying you'll have every misc skill at 50 or some such. I'm talking about most misc skills being 20-25, and how much impact it will have.

[swift hornet]

I agree, that however isn't necessarily what's going to be the case with a lot of the quests in the game.

[dawn spindle]

Normal impact is fine IMO, they level so much slower and are training-capped now.

[swift hornet]

That's something I need to test more. Because leveling a misc skill 10 times is the same impact as leveling a single minor skill 5 times. Which idk if I agree with.

[past pendant]

Most misc skills at 20-25 is clearly an abuse IMHO

[swift hornet]

If that's the case then training cap absolutely does nothing to prevent this at all. Because all your have to do is make your lowest minor skill 25

[past pendant]

I like 2-2-1 for major-minor-misc

[dawn spindle]

Very unlikely scenario, very time-consuming even with training, and that's all the player does for days to get there? If it's OP, more power to 'em!

[past pendant]

Again, NCGD cannot prevent ALL abuses. It just makes them more complicated.

[swift hornet]

Im just saying i don't factor that as being abuse. Plenty of players make a lot of skills misc and then end up leveling them through playing. Like speech craft, mercantile, enchant, alchemy.

Even repair sometimes.

[dawn spindle]

Such a person IRL would be corresponsingly ubermensch as well.

I will be back in a few!

A parting thought at @mym : pegging chargen attributes to race/sign values is the first major cut to NCGD gravy, and it hasn't even hit yet! Playtesting my impacts, I'm seeing even more gravy fall away. Soon, there will be only meat! 😈 Prepare for much wailing and gnashing of teeth! Lol

[dawn spindle]

(Oh yeah, you would make it an option!)

Sucks I won't really be able to playtest for 2-3 weeks coming up in a few days. (wrist surgery)

[past pendant]

Maybe I just don't know how players play Morrowind. In any case, you only found 4-5 useful misc skills. If some of those are set as minor or major, then it will be less

[swift hornet]

I really hope it goes well. Wrist stuff can suck. I can relate

[swift hornet]

Im just giving an example. Because security and magic skills can be in that mix too.

[past pendant]

I'll sure tackle that last (?) part of the next version, as soon as my big refacto is done. Now I'm finished with Fresh Loot (for now), all my spare time will go to NCGD

[past pendant]

Maybe it's the new capping system that's not enough restrictive

What about: sum of misc < sum of minor < sum of major 😁

Or, for misc, they can't train above half of their governing attribute

Or quarter

[dawn spindle]

I had proposed looking at total or average of misc < total or average of minor < total or average of major. Probably need playtesting to find the golden ratios, because it might not be that simple with 17 misc vs 5 minor vs 5 major skills.

[swift hornet]

I LOVE that idea

I love a tighter attribute restriction for the misc skills actually.

That's a HUGE play

[past pendant]

Average is less restrictive than current approach in the beta

[dawn spindle]

Noted. Also it gives more flexibility about how to raise the cap instead of one skill that maybe just turned out to be a stinker.

Never want people to feel dead-ended into one bad decision at chargen time.

At least, nice to give outs when possible.

[past pendant]

I noticed that 😂
What about minor skills?

[dawn spindle]

75-80%

[past pendant]

Conflicts with "chargen choices matter" 🙂

[dawn spindle]

I want it to look like 33/67/100, with minor skills further held back by their sheer numbers.

[dawn spindle]

They can matter funly or not. 8P

A misfire on a minor skill, realized late, shouldn't be a game-stopper except for a perfectionist, agreed?

Even using averages, it will be adequately harder, just not impossible to work around it

I'm not carrying the torch for using averages! I just added it as a note about a previous convo, and idea that might serve somehow.

[swift hornet]

So we only punish misfired major skills realized late?

[dawn spindle]

I like the idea of averaging the skill group doing the capping just to allow other options and strategies to find workarounds for reaching goals (which is playing the game, after all, making a series of interesting decisions toward a goal).

[swift hornet]

Idk, i just don't think a misc skill should have half the impact of a minor skill that you actually have to choose and has limited slots.

Or is this the cap thing?

I got confused I think

[dawn spindle]

A misfired Major cannot really by definition be realized late.

[dawn spindle]

There are 17 of them versus 5 minor

We are on this thread #1226608966612553749 message

[charred geyser]

mym34

Or, for misc, they can't train above half of their governing attribute

Linked by @​illest503 from #NCGDMW Lua Edition · Mar 22, 2025, 6:32 PM

[dawn spindle]

I said 33/67/100% of governing attribute for training caps

BBIAB 🚬 ❤️

[swift hornet]

Okay it's the caps thing. Not attributes thing. My b

Im on board then

Like 100% those numbers look fine. Full send it.

[past pendant]

I withdraw that idea. As you say, too restrictive. And harder to apprehend I think

Current beta approach is fine

+lower impacts seems enough

[swift hornet]

Im pretty fine with either choice. I think that's a neat idea tho

[dawn spindle]

illest 0.3 impacts are also more strategic in misc skill selection with the training cap

[past pendant]

You prefer 100-100-30?

[dawn spindle]

Am I finding correctly that iLevelupMajorMultAttribute and iLevelupMinorMultAttribute default to 1?

[past pendant]

Yes. But NCGD set it to 0

Otherwise you'll get the level up window and you'll level up when you should not

[dawn spindle]

Ah now I see what they are for, sorry

What does NCGD do for these three?

    progressRequirement *= fMajorSkillBonus
elif skill in player.minorSkills:
    progressRequirement *= fMinorSkillBonus
elif skill in player.miscSkills:
    progressRequirement *= fMiscSkillBonus

These are alleged defaults:

fMinorSkillBonus    1163    float    1
fMiscSkillBonus    1164    float    1.25```

Sorry, could look at code, just running around atm

[past pendant]

@swift hornet it's a setting anyway

[dawn spindle]

100-100-30 for training caps or...?

[swift hornet]

That's a setting?

Also unrelated. But were you able to replicate that bug i sent the video about?

[past pendant]

Attribute growth base on major/minor/misc. Sorry I misunderstood you

[past pendant]

Could not try yet. I'm starting my refactoring. I'll test after that

[swift hornet]

No worries. Im just eager to see if someone else can replicate it. Or if it's a mod conflict on my end. Though I'm unsure what could cause that

[dawn spindle]

That's right, I remember now. Well, it's tough math because the low level of the misc skills mean they level very slowly. Vanilla is "balanced" at 1.25 / 1 / 0.75. With chargen attributes matching vanilla now, maybe those are the right values?

Like, you could try to abuse misc skill practice, I guess......

Just doesn't seem like a very efficient way to get OP

[dawn spindle]

Greywander, in the oringal NCGD readme:

The amount of points a skill contributes to attributes is proportional to the skill squared. This means a skill
of 10 will contribute 4 times as many points as a skill of 5 (5 * 5 = 25, 10 * 10 = 100). Generally, you'll grow
faster by increasing your skills that are highest, while increasing lower skills will give less of a benefit. This
doesn't mean you have to specialize, quite the contrary. You'll get higher attributes overall by raising, say,
Axe and Destruction (which don't share any attributes) than you will by raising Axe and Spear (which are linked to
the same attributes). Conversely, Raising your Axe and Spear together will result in a higher Strength score than
raising a multitude of Strength skills to minor levels.

Here's the money quote:

Your choices of Major and Minor skills, as well as your specialization, have no effect except for the starting level of
your skills. Your favored attributes do stick, however, so choose those carefully.

I would start here #1226608966612553749 message and see how it goes. The Skill^2 thing implies a more complicated model perhaps for looking at adjusting maj/min/misc skill rates.

[charred geyser]

illest503

These are alleged defaults:

fMinorSkillBonus    1163    float    1
fMiscSkillBonus    1164    float    1.25```

Linked by @​illest503 from #NCGDMW Lua Edition · Mar 22, 2025, 7:33 PM

[dawn spindle]

Here, he is "fixing" a feature, not a bug!
NCGD brought a lot to the table as a continuation of the MADD/Galsaiah-type line of leveling mods. But there is a lot happening at once in NCGD. The chargen changes were very sweeping, and swept away part of the soul of Morrowind: chargen and the meticulous choosing of major/minor skills.

Also, the governing skills were overhauled in IMO a pretty low-brow way.

NCGD killed it did great with sleepless leveling, skill uncapping, and decay as an option, and I'm pretty sure I love the Skill^2 thing.

[dawn spindle]

A lot of people see things better sorted by class archetype:

[broken peak]

Why does H2H Sneak Unarmored Alchemy get PER?

and Armorer

I would keep for PER only conjuration Illusion merchantile speechcraft restoration

[dawn spindle]

If you ever try to arrange this chart, you will quickly realize that all of that PER has to go somehwere.
I had some proposals with 6 per for Speech/Merc (compared to Vanilla's 7), but they were fairly roundly nixed.

One major kudo (in my design) to OG MW is that MCGD has the totals along the bottom at 27 uniformly, and I reject this. I love Greywander's work, but I think some finer points were missed in his "fixing" of the "broken" Morrowind skill/attribute arrangement

When NCGD first landed, it threw out a few babies with the bathwater:

• vanilla balance of attribute gains in STR vs. END/PER - note also that this fixes serious inconsistencies/bad corners in arranging the table of impacts
• vanilla balance of how attributes are governing skills - specifically, those skills that were designed to allow various classes into strange attributes
• certain skills that vanilla purposefully changed from being governed by skills used in their skill checks
• the one-attribute-per-skill conditions that provided delicious puzzle solving at chargen to sculpt your future character
  Losing the rest-to-level and weird inverted min-max strategies was great. Adding more nuance than single attributes-per-skill was great. Some of the elimination of vanilla constraints made chargen more flexible but also easier and less mindful -- not necessarily better.

Proposed departures from current NCGD

• skill impacts are not limited to 4-2-1 format
• fewer "realism"-indefensible skill/attribute associations
  ** thereby less "flattening" of characters into everymen
• governing attributes from vanilla that had purpose are restored
• Make Character Design Meaningful Again™

I retouched the points above for you, and will carry forward the revisions.

[dawn spindle]

• Bring the good parts of Vanilla's design sensibilities back into OpenMW post-NCGD
• Bring the good parts of Vanilla skill importance and balance back into OpenMW post-NCGD™

Bring the good parts of Vanilla skill importance and balance back into OpenMW post-NCGD™
Damn, that is awfully long for a hat

For reference, the original readme

For reference, the section of OpenMW research into relevant MW equations.
https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Research:Stats_and_Levelling#Player_levelling

[molten oyster]

I'm interested by your proposal, is it playable?

[dawn spindle]

I think if you use these two into your NCGD, it should work

With reloading lua, you should be able to have it apply to saved characters that have been played a fair amount, perhaps one of the best tests. You will see deleveling to be sure, but this is just the gravy that NCGD has been spreading all over the player base for years, it will dry up and go away in its time

Note that I did not get the descriptions right or do a delta merge, have no idea how to share these things and it's too late in the evening to learn, etc.

I still have to learn how to generate an omwaddon with the updated descriptions that I wrote, etc.

[dawn spindle]

So, you will not have accurate skill descriptions for all skills in terms of attributes affected -- you will need to use the chart plus imagination or ODS plus manipulation to plan your build.
For all I know I could use help, and it is all catty-wumpus from merging shenanigans. Long story but I promise you a full refund at the very least

I can also promise that I have never released a mod of any sort, and if those files are not working, that I would hope you would please let me know how I can help

Should be that configuration.lua and ncgdmw.omwaddon are sufficient, if the universe wishes to alleviate my suffering in this mortal coil...

[dawn spindle]

Wow, I never had the idea to type something just to quote it provocatively. Is it the beer?#off-topic message

[charred geyser]

illest503

Therefore, I deem it reasonable to hope for more respect in general from all you punks, although I must admit that you have all been amenable and receptive to my contributions, and my heart is full with gratitude for it.

Linked by @​illest503 from #off-topic · Mar 23, 2025, 6:12 AM

[dawn spindle]

In the words of Ozymandius, "look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair"

[fiery oak]

Alright, you wanna play old guy games? Alright.

I played Half Life 1 on the Xbox

I'm so old I remember back when we thought halo would end at 3

What halcyon days of yore those were

I played DOOM and Diablo on PSX and PC and you know what

I thought the playstation versions of both games were better

[dawn spindle]

Haha I threw dead ducks in the air at the retreiver dog field trials at age 12 to finally have enough for that Sega Genesis

[fiery oak]

THOU MAYST NOT SPEAK IN MY PRESENCE UNLESS THOU HAST EXPERIENCED THE PAIN OF THE LIVE OPTICAL DISC SWITCH OF THE PHAT PS2 MODDING

[dawn spindle]

I graduated with a CS/Math in '97 having been brought up on C

[fiery oak]

I genuinely think I am physically too old to do that mod now

Okay christ you were literally a CS grad before I was born, I'll let it go

Your degree is as old as me, I concede

[dawn spindle]

I concede that you are a gentleman I am pleased to interact with

But O Lord please do check out my ideas for this very mod

[fiery oak]

I do not have any software on my machine which is capable of processing this document

[dawn spindle]

As long as you aren't not anti-pro-brexit 🇪🇺 🤷‍♂️

[fiery oak]

What

I can't really comment much on NCGD tbh. As much as I'd like to, I don't actually have time to play the game enough to really get a good feel for what the leveling flow should/does feel like. However I will say after glancing at your comments I generally agree with your direction

I don't even know anything about what the modern iteration looks like - if you wanna talk about NGDMW-tes3mp, now....

One thing I've always wanted out of it is just skill limitations based on your class picks

eg major caps 100 and up, minor caps like 50-75, misc caps 25-50, depending

On my server we play 100/75/25 and everyone loves it, I have never once received a single complaint. In fact, it was the only "improvement" anybody ever wanted out of NCGD

[dawn spindle]

.ods?

[fiery oak]

I am being entirely genuine when I say this is possibly the first text document anybody's handed me in a decade or so

I know how to open it, I'm being an ass 😛

But fr I don't have an office suite

If it ain't code in this house, it's markdown, and if it ain't markdown, it's yaml

[dawn spindle]

Yes, we all know that modders never actually play. I think my training for this has been tweaking downloaded mods and becoming a habitual character starter. Perhaps I am finally ready for my final and permanent metamorphasis into a full-on OpenMW modder, with no actual game-time and a penchant for discussions about the various merits or abandonability of decades-old game design decisions.

Well trust me, I'm tempted

[dawn spindle]

Srsly ain't never had use for no consumer spreadsheet app?

I like it mostly for data visualization on the quick and such

If I had made a career of coding, I suppose I might have a lot of crazy commandline-fu

[fiery oak]

Perhaps I have, but

You underestimate how incredibly disorganized of a man I am

I don't take notes, I don't write shit down, and I definitely do not be fucking with office software, just as kind of a general rule. The first two are mostly just due to me getting comfortable with the fact that I never remember to read shit even if I do write it somewhere

[dawn spindle]

I can send CSV or tab-separated, if either of those formats would work better for you?

[fiery oak]

LMAO no dude I got it 😂

OH this is your spreadsheet

Okay that makes sense

I was wondering where you got this incredibly organized layout that half looks like it was from ingame

Fuck me, the spreadsheet people must have been right all along

[dawn spindle]

Well, I prefer to imaginervisualize my dream results in realtime

Notice that if you change the numeros in the grid, the trade-offs will be indicated below and to the right. I think I made the optimal grid for post-before and pre-later NCGD, and would really love to hear otherwise!

that if you change the numeros in the grid,
Just saying use take advantage of the conditional formatting that I painstakingly configured

Here comes mym to wreck my LibreOffice efforts lol

[past pendant]

You should link the beta archive too, because that configuration.lua file requires the beta

[past pendant]

Not yet

[dawn spindle]

Man, you always have me at a disadvantage when you wake up!

[fiery oak]

Light armor strikes as a bit odd.

why endurance?

[past pendant]

Because you have to endure the hits

[dawn spindle]

Well, look at it like this

[past pendant]

I love the 4-3-2-1 end

[dawn spindle]

Notice count-ups and count-downs, super balance

[past pendant]

I did notice 👌

[dawn spindle]

This attribute-payout proposal is of the highest illestmanship. It is encrusted with cabechons of old school insight and a bunvh of shit that you punks might eventually come to understand

I nailed the bottom section early enough to be called "first"

[dawn spindle]

It's just so difficult for me to believe that I don't already have flocks of followers to my program! Perhaps it is the generations of NCGD-softies that have been born since release that will betray me? Hard to say. Eyes-on-a-swivel is so much more than an awkward hyphenation...

WE'RE TAKIN' THIS FIGHT TO THE MAT!!!!!! RIGHT NOW!!!!!!! ALL COMERS!!!!!

[fiery oak]

Try not to hurt yourself there, gramps.

[dawn spindle]

okay

that was my bad

[fiery oak]

Let's get you back home

[dawn spindle]

let's all talk it out lower case

[fiery oak]

Come on, I have wolfenstein open

I know that one's your favorite, grandpa

[dawn spindle]

I always hoped for more from the the wolfenstein chest on apple ][, and OH grandmammy the bombs how they exploded on Omaha Beach!

the wolfenstein chest on apple ][
You know...the one in the northern left-hand corner of the second level up from the dancing chest?

Look at it this way...all y'all chumps might or might not see the light and come around. @mym already gave me all I need to dream big with leveling and how it works. You can all come along for the ride or not

I Can Make My Own NCGD skill->attribute assignments now! Double-expletive-wow!

I'm offering what I did and will be using as a gift, no more.

no more

[hoary trellis]

Hi there. I love this mod because of the natural feeling of progression. I have some thoughts about training, though. Currently training takes 2 hours no matter what. This is fine at low skill lvls,but I think that's it's silly at high lvls. In 24 hrs you can improve your skill by 12 points. In 48 hrs it's 24 points. It's a bit nuts when you think about it. IMO training time should be dependant on skill value. Let's say that it stays at 2 hours for skill lvl 5-20 and then it gets increased by 1 hr for every 10 points. 21-30 would take 3 hrs per point, 31-40 would take 4 hrs, 41-50 would take 5 hrs etc. That would have a great synergy with skill decay as it wouldn't change low lvl training that much but would increase the challenge for mid- and late game and this is sth that Morrowind always needs. It's also good for immersion IMO.

Another idea is sth like well rested XP gain buff lasting X hours (8? 12?) after sleeping for 8 hrs. This is sth that many games have including Fallout New Vegas and Skyrim IIRC. It can be rather low at 5-10% and should apply only for resting in a bed. It's not a major boost but it's nice to have and players like bonuses. It encourages realistic behaviour, i.e. natural periods of rest and activity, which is another immersion booster.

[past pendant]

Thx, both ideas make sense and I like them

Regarding the training, a message after each train session could inform the player on the time passed and why

Regarding the XP boost, I'd like to have a visual feedback, but not sure how

Also the boost conditions raise many questions:

• 8h rest during daylight gives you the same bonus?
• sleeping outside: fraction of the bonus?
• multiple short sleep sessions: what formula?
• oversleep: negative effect?

[broken peak]

I dont think it needs to be overengineered

the bonus can be same with 1-24 hour slept

players are just going to sleep 24 hs every time so might as well give a flat bonus for any amount of sleep

oversleep not needed too imo

just leave interior and exterior sleep bonus and make it almost equal

with slightly better bonus for indoor sleeping

[hoary trellis]

I would ignore daylight/nightime stuff. Let the player decide. Just 8 hrs of rest in a bed required for Well Rested buff. Simple and effective IMO. Sleeping outside should have no bonus unless you use a bed (so camps and such should be fine). Oversleeping is not important IMO. In fact, with needs mods and such the more time you rest the more you will need to eat etc. If you use the tax mod then time also "costs" money. All that is optional, but viable for the player if their decides to make the game harder.

I think that you already get no skill decay for sleeping in a bed so that's covered

[hoary trellis]

Yes, that's an option. However, I think that when you train you get a black screen with 2/2 or sth showing that 2 hrs have passed. Possible to make that dynamic?

BTW I think that Well Rested buff could last 10 hrs so we would get a natural activity cycle: 8 hrs of sleep->10 hrs of buffed gains->remaining 6 hrs of standard gains. If you rest again you will get the buff again.

[swift hornet]

Man these next few versions of this mod gonna have all sorts of stuff lol

[dawn spindle]

I find that writing something down makes me remember it without rereading. Was it a waste of paper or no???

[past pendant]

Do you have something specific to say about it? 😁

[broken peak]

whose exactly the mod aurhor here?

Johny?

[past pendant]

Multiple authors

Since v2.2 I'm the main contributor

[swift hornet]

Other than I'm just super excited and eager for it to drop? Not at all.

[past pendant]

I could not find any GMST that controls the training session duration.
Also I don't know how to make the time pass...

@hoary trellis

[hoary trellis]

https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/54917 this mod adds time cost to persuasion so I think that this part seems possible

[past pendant]

Thx, I'll take a look at this mod

[dawn spindle]

Lelimule has some very 🔥 mods

I used its patch for enemy fatigue bars for so long, until Floating Healthbars saved me from patching and compiling.

[past pendant]

It's the mod where you're being spoiled on enemy health and fatigue?

[dawn spindle]

I liked it for a monk char 👼

...but you have inspired me to turn it off!

[dawn spindle]

wait a sec, didn't vanilla spoil enemy health?

[hoary trellis]

Yes

Not in terms of numbers

But there is a bar

[dawn spindle]

Oh shew 👼 I don't have numbers on, or enemy level spoilers

AND imo fatigue bars should be vanilla, so I can sleep easy 😉

[dawn spindle]

Naw, I'm turning it off anyway. It spoils enemy position in the dark.

[past pendant]

yeah but just for a short period of time. And only health I think

[past pendant]

I'm doing great progress, my big refacto is done and is wonderful 🙂 , now I'm wondering things

@dawn spindle @swift hornet @hoary trellis
After chargen, if the player selected the slow attribute growth setting, should he already have lower attributes than if he'd had selected the normal or fast growth?
Or does growth speed should only affect attributes afterwards? (with skill increases)

I've improved the way I normalize starting attributes: I make sure the average value is the same whatever the growth and "start attribute ratio" settings

but I'm not sure I should preserve the same average for all growth setting values

[hoary trellis]

I say that it should only affect future growth. It's more intuitive that way.

[past pendant]

I just wonder if players would like to have a setting that affects the total sum of attributes at chargen, in order to make the game harder/easier

[swift hornet]

Uuuh i mean, idk how that would be a bad idea? More settings are fine.

[past pendant]

We already have a LOT of settings 🙂

If I can merge settings where it make sense, then I'll do it

as the growth setting impacts the attributes values after chargen, it could also do it at chargen

hmmm not sure it would be coherent for all values of the 2 attribute settings (growth, and the new "start ratio" settings)

[hoary trellis]

growth = future. This is how I see it. A separate setting would be fine, sure. Not sure it's necessary, but hey, more customisation 😆 . However, I think that mod is so complex that many players won't touch the default settings

[past pendant]

Yeah, I agree on the complexity, that's why I refrain myself from adding new settings

[rocky hemlock]

Can I use this on an existing save?

[past pendant]

yes you can

next version should be better with midgame upgrades

[rocky hemlock]

The way it works as I understand it, it raises the things associated with skills? Like if I level speechcraft this mod makes it level my personality too?

[past pendant]

True. NCGDMW does that since its very beginning

the next version will just improve on that

also NCGD removes the player level up windows and the need to rest

[past pendant]

I misunderstood: NCGD can also be installed midgame. Your attributes will be changed though. With the next version, you'll have a new setting to decide how you want your starting attributes to grow: From original chargen values or rather from skill values. Multiple ratio setting values will be available.

[rocky hemlock]

How severe is skill decay?

[rocky hemlock]

Oh so my attributes would get changed? In a way that doesn't make sense?

[hoary trellis]

in the beginning it's not a problem at all. You will notice it more during the mid- and late-game especially if you are not using some skills actively.

you can always counter skill decay with training and a skill which was decreased by skill decay levels up quicker in order to "catch up"

[past pendant]

The higher the skill, the higher the decay. But decay is optional, it can be disabled.

[past pendant]

They will be changed in a way that makes FULL sense 🙂 The idea is that your skills should automatically impact your attributes. Not only the governing attributes, but with a sensible distribution of impacts, like "long blade" impacts agility and strength, but also a bit of speed.

[rocky hemlock]

Well I can always install and then not save and check what it does

So how is this different from the non lua version? I'm kind of confused how there's multiple versions of this mod. Isn't there an mwse one too?

[past pendant]

The mwscript version is very old and has far less features

I don't know about mwse alternatives, sorry

the Lua version offers many settings to tune your progression, like exponential reduction of skill gains based on their level, to prevent being OP to quickly

[past pendant]

best choice indeed. Just go to the settings page and read what's available

@dawn spindle @swift hornet @hoary trellis here is a new beta version:

• new setting to change the proportions of chargen attributes VS skill value contribution
  • defaults to 1/2 in order to be similar to current NCGD version
  • you can dynamically change the value and see the results on your attributes
  • even with None to attr preservation, the start values are not 0 because I add a constant to all attributes in order to get the same average as with the Full setting
• new @dawn spindle's skill impacts on attributes
• you can use on existing save, but NOT on existing old beta save

Edit: Archive below, I fixed a major bug.

@swift hornet I could not reproduce your bug, and Larrius Varo doesn't offer training on my mod setup... please try to reproduce again, as many things have changed in this version

[rocky hemlock]

Is there a pop up when you level up? Would it be easy to integrate the Bethesda level up images in the the pop ups?

[past pendant]

just a standard message at the screen bottom

as it can happen during combat, a full window could be bothersome

[rocky hemlock]

Unless the game was paused

I don't know how you put images in a custom menu/pop up anyway

[broken peak]

cant wait

[past pendant]

I just checked, and there is a way with mwscripts: set Gamehour to ( Gamehour + 0.001 )
But there is no equivalent function with OpenMW Lua 0.49 😦

AFAIK

[swift hornet]

Who replaced him with training? I'll try to replicate it.

[past pendant]

I have no idea. I use MOMW list Expanded Vanilla, up to date, with few changes

[dawn spindle]

Here is a hotfix configuration.lua that is the latest version of attribute impacts. Only a minor change to Block and Armorer. Now included in the latest

[rocky hemlock]

What is attribute impacts?

[dawn spindle]

They are the ratios for how each skill increase develops your attributes.

Compare with Vanilla and original NCGD

[past pendant]

New version with last fix from @dawn spindle

[hoary trellis]

Some of the things here still seem a bit random. I don't know why Unarmored, Armored or Sneak should have +1 PER, for example. I also think that Light Armor and Unarmored should have more impact on Agility. I have no idea why Blunt Weapon has +1 SPE. It has nothing to do with SPE. Hand to Hand probably should have more SPE impact instead.

Short Blade having +2 STR and same value for AGI just weird

it's certainly not logical

[dawn spindle]

• All that PER has to go somehwere, and we decided against "tall" (6 or 7 PER) Speech/Mercantile
• AGI has to be developed by skills governed by that attribute - its an attribute that many skills want
• Blunt Weapon is probably the broadest class, from wooden staves to warhammers - it was chosen as the "balanced" weapon
• I don't really like Short Blade providing more speed than H2H, and would be open to a proposed alternative
  In general, original NCGD largely redefined the meaning of each attribute, and changed almost all of the governing attributes. A lot of babies were thrown away with the bathwater. This is an attempt to bring some good things back that were tossed, and have the attribute impacts make more logical sense.

[hoary trellis]

do you have this table in the Excel format?

[rocky hemlock]

I thought NGCD lua uses vanilla governing attributes by default. I've not installed it yet

[dawn spindle]

It's a significant departure. I think it takes some real pondering to get to the bottom of many of the decisions I made.

[hoary trellis]

I sort of get the Blunt Weapons

[dawn spindle]

Negative, it is all catty-wumpus spaghetting from vanilla

[hoary trellis]

it has staves, indeed

[hoary trellis]

I will tinker around with this and maybe make some suggestions

[dawn spindle]

That means a lot! Thank you.

My first pass was to fix the NCGD table for realism, and second pass was for gameplay.

[vital viper]

Can I continue playing the game without this mod? I'm already 10 hours deep in and it came with the UMO bundle. I kind of took the "Expanded Vanilla" literally when I had to choose which version to install and thought it would be the vanilla version that had been expanded upon.

Meaning I thought that "Total Overhaul" was the version where you overhauled the game hugely and maybe radically changed it

And 2nd question if you don't mind: I suppose "I Heart Vanilla" is the one closest to the original then?

[dawn spindle]

May I ask what you prefer about vanilla over NCGD?

[vital viper]

So far nothing, but it's been many years since I played Morrowind, so my memory is lacking. It's that I can't level up and I've no clue what any of it means. It's perpetually stuck at "0/10 leveling progress" and then it says "Intelligence 2x, willpower 5x, personality 2x" - I've no chance of knowing what that means.

[dawn spindle]

I don't think good things happen if you pull NCGD mid-playthrough, but I could be wrong on that. You can always try removing it and load your game to see what it looks like. If it's bad, restore your load order and no harm done

[vital viper]

There is usually some sort of wild effect and I know it's a big deal when I level up, because that's the major reason for playing in the first place.

I can't increase health, fatigue or magicka" - I've basically no options.

And I saw that my skills were "decaying" set on by default. I didn't notice it, but after 5 hours not leveling up, I was getting suspicious that something was entirely wrong.

You're not supposed to be losing skill points as you progress through the game. I will say that is definitively a deal breaker to me, but thankfully I could turn it off.

I did wonder why the books didn't increase my skills anymore too. I changed the setting by turning it on. The rest of the options I don't understand, so I won't change them.

It might sound silly, but I instantly remembered to pick up the books because it was super valuable, and then nothing happened 😅 That little "rush" or so to speak was not there

[hoary trellis]

My take. I kept all the targets intact. There are no random PER distributions - all +1 go to magic skills for consistency. Mages tend to deal with letters, words and such much more than physical characters unless these characters are specialised in Mercantile/Speechcraft. Willpower is a much more physical attribute than Intelligence (Willpower affects Fatigue and resistance to some effects like Paralysis), so some skills which need patience, precision etc. have a slight WIL bonus. Illusion is back with PER focus as Illusion magic is heavily dependant on manipulation, charming and obfuscation. It gets slightly higher INT bonus than WIL bonus because more magicka will be more useful for Nightblade-type characters which don't tend to have many magic skills. Short Blade is a weapon skill least dependent on STR - as it should be. Hand to Hand has a similar profile to Short Blade but with a little bit more focus on STR which you need for these punches. Athletics has the highest impact on SPD as it should. There is a visible progression for armor and unarmored skills with Unarmored and Light Armor much more heavily dependent on AGI and SPD.

[vital viper]

Is there a setting that let's me choose what to increase instead of it being automatic?

And can you explain what this means?

[hoary trellis]

All progress is automatic in NCGD. You will never see the level up screen. Your attributes will broadly reflect your skills. There is no min-maxing for modifiers

[vital viper]

I see. Can I remove it entirely and continue playing then?

[past pendant]

I you already saved a game with NCGD, you won't get back you attributes as before, but it could work

[past pendant]

I like your version too. Just I would prefer if INT magic skills were a bit different from each others, and same for WIL magic skills

[hoary trellis]

That can be improved. Alchemy and Enchant in particular. Alchemy can affect Endurance since it involves experimentation on yourself, for example. However, I'm not sure that we can keep the Vanilla totals. Not 100% sure we should because it's not as if Vanilla is perfectly balanced or anything. I kept the totals in order to avoid a revolution here, but slight changes can be considered. I mean, do we really need 35 total points for STR and only 21 for END, for example? I dunno.

[past pendant]

Also @dawn spindle do you really want to preserve an over-represented STR and under-represented SPE?

[hoary trellis]

SPE or END?

[past pendant]

yes!

END

[dawn spindle]

I really like your top-half changes, and Illusion. I just can't headcanon hard enough to believe that Short, H2H, Marksman, and Sneak would ever contribute to a character's ability to cast spells reliably or resist Paralyze and Silence. Let me bounce something back to you

[hoary trellis]

Willpower increases Fatigue

[dawn spindle]

and also those other things

[past pendant]

RP vs GP 🙂

[dawn spindle]

Gotta use END if you want those skills to do that IMO

[hoary trellis]

End and Wil both affect Fatigue. END also affects health, though, so that's a major difference

[hoary trellis]

It makes sense that Willpower affects Fatigue. Focus, precision, patience can all help with that

[dawn spindle]

I think it is six of one and half-dozen of the other to shoe-horn personality into the top half or the bottom of the chart. IMO only a few magic skills justity it. I would personally rather have Speech/Merc at 6, with 1 INT for Merc and 1 WIL for Speech

The WIL for Speech can make sense in terms of resist silence

If any attribute is "spread too thinly" it makes the skills samey

[hoary trellis]

I'm not opposed to focused attributes so I would be fine with heavy PER focus fot Speechcraft and Mercantile. I also think that Security could have higher Luck impact

[dawn spindle]

I considered that too, but Luck at 1 is kind of sacrosanct

I going to try to bring in what I think are the best of your changes now

[hoary trellis]

Tbh it really isn't. We make those rules.

I would def spread more END and less STR btw. Vanilla totals should be more like a guideline than some sacred rule

[dawn spindle]

I tried to hide PER in the skills with vendable products

What if all the combat difficulty mods are just addressing the END that NCGD added?

[hoary trellis]

Anyway, here is my proposal:

• vanilla totals are just a guideline and don't have to be kept if we cannot fit something anywhere. No random distribution just because. NCGD has a totally different level up system from Vanilla, anyway

• specialised skills are ok if other points cannot be distributed anywhere in a realistic way

• there is no rule saying that just because Bethesda assigned a Governing Attribute to a skill then we cannot change it. Security heavily focused on Intelligence is some very old and obsolete choice IMO. Intelligence only affects Magicka in Vanilla. In NGCD it affects Magicka and skill decay. That's it.

• gameplay-wise we focus on real attribute impact. What does it do? Why should it be affected by a skill?

• luck should be kept low but ATM it's the very definition of samey. It basically doesn't matter. Luck simply goes up. Maybe add some little variation here? I can definitely see how Luck could be more heavily affected by Security or Alchemy, for example. Meanwhile a skill like Heavy Armor is the opposite of Luck

[dawn spindle]

Which skill do you propose removing the 1 LUC from?

[dawn spindle]

Only ever always with very good justification, well-considered

[dawn spindle]

There are good reasons for the choices they made, and I think those should be understood in each case before changing them.

Security heavily focused on Intelligence is some very old and obsolete choice IMO.
This is intended, because a stupid thief will be a poor lockpick. He will need to get INT from another skill. It makes dumb thieves and smart thieves different

[hoary trellis]

I would start with protection. Armor skills esp Heavy and Medium are not luck-dependent at all. They are the opposite. I think that Axe and Spear are not dependant on luck, either. Axe relies on strength and just that, while Spear relies on reach to keep you safe.

[hoary trellis]

Intelligence has no impact on thief skills. At all.

0

null

nothing

[dawn spindle]

All skills at 1 LUC strikes me as a fundamental design, NCGD or no

AGI 100 and INT 0, IRL, ain't picking a single lock ever

A stupid person will also make a very poor pickpocket etc

[hoary trellis]

I repeat. Intelligence in-game does not affect anything related to thief skills

absolutely no impact

ignore the name

of the skill

focus on real impact in-game

[dawn spindle]

Correct! Can you understand why they chose to do this??

[hoary trellis]

because they wanted to spread around Governing Attributes

[dawn spindle]

I don't agree there

[rocky hemlock]

I feel like all of the Bethesda governing attributes for skills make sense

[hoary trellis]

I actually think that there is a good reason why Security should have no major connection with Intelligence. Security is for non-mages as Alteration can replace Security as a skill

Security is for thiefs

[dawn spindle]

Consider that not every skill should be developing mainly the stat used in its skill check, that this was an error in original NCGD

...or governed by it

[hoary trellis]

Governing Attribute is only important for training purposes in-game, right?

nothing else

[dawn spindle]

Yes, and I have flavored my assignments with mainly vanilla governing attributes

Keep in mind that training is now capped at the lowest skill in the next category up, as well as governing attribute.

[hoary trellis]

anyway, Security has a natural connection with Agility and Luck.

[dawn spindle]

Security you need to know a lot about locks and traps, INT makes sense for governing training

[hoary trellis]

Try picking a lock in-game with 100 INT and 30 INT and tell me the difference 😉

[dawn spindle]

No difference

But it makes sense that your training would be governed by INT

[hoary trellis]

you are paying too much attention to the name of the attribute instead of its real impact in-game. Intelligence is for Magicka. This is the impact.

[dawn spindle]

On my 0.5b, I would like to pull the PER down into Merc/Speech, but I don't want to leave INT/WIL underrepresented, and not seeing how to pull the INT/WIL that would be freed into the magic skills.

[hoary trellis]

gameplay-wise we have much more leeway with WIL than INT in my opinion, as WIL is partly a physical attribute because of its impact on Fatigue

[dawn spindle]

The original devs thought it worthwhile to purposefully deviate from this, and there are positive implications in character design and differentiation, even at vanilla's 7-per-skill.

[spark pawn]

I think the problem is with how you're defining intelligence. Considering the way intelligence functions in-game, I would define it more as the character's scholarly learning. The way you're defining it, you could viably make a case for intelligence governing every single skill. Think of the difference between street smarts and book smarts.

[dawn spindle]

Note that WIL did not affect HP in vanilla.

[hoary trellis]

correct

WIL affected Fatigue

not HP

TBH I think that HP should be calculated purely based on END and STR, with END having a bigger impact than STR

[dawn spindle]

Security is book smarts too. The main point is that skills need not be governed for training by the exact attribute used in their skill checks

[dawn spindle]

I agree, and proposed it, and then shot myself down before mym came to 💯 agree.

...with my shooting down of myself. But I agree that Wil should have 0% affect on HP. It was a major character design nerf by NCGD

[hoary trellis]

that being said, END is definitely underpresented in the table

while STR is overepresented

[dawn spindle]

NCGD added a lot of END to the table over vanilla, 7 whole points.

It is supposed to be a scarcer attribute IMO

STR overrepresented isn't bad. Each weapon offensive skill needs some.

Note that PER is also underrepresented.

[hoary trellis]

and it should be because it's a non-combat attribute with only 2 truly dedicated skills

[dawn spindle]

There may be other reasons

But yeah

So why would the devs choose to make END scarce and STR abundant?

[hoary trellis]

why would the devs make HP dependant on starting Endurance?

[dawn spindle]

Well, that's kind of in the definition of the attribute

[hoary trellis]

lack of retroactive Endurance impact is actually one of the biggest problems with Morrowind's levelling system

why they made a levelling system where going for +5 modifiers in a very artificial way is the optimal way of playing?

their choices are not always the greatest

[dawn spindle]

Agreed, but not always garbage either.

Nor are they always inscrutable.

[past pendant]

I don't have a strong opinion on that. What do you suggest? END 2, STR 1?

[hoary trellis]

what's the currect calculation?

in NCGD

[past pendant]

4-2-1

[dawn spindle]

Vanilla is```Initial HP

health = int(0.5 * (baseStrength + baseEndurance))

At every level-up

occurs after attributes have been increased by the level-up
bonusHP = fLevelUpHealthEndMult * baseEndurance```

[past pendant]

Yeah, 1-1 END-STR

[hoary trellis]

4 END, 2 STR and 1 WIL is NCGD?

[dawn spindle]

I did not know this! I'm fine with it.

[hoary trellis]

could be easily changed to 5 END and 2 STR, then

but 1 WIL seems low enough

that it's not a major deal

[dawn spindle]

It leaves WIL making less sense as an HP provider in the attribute impacts

...which I like

I had thought it equal to END for some reason

[hoary trellis]

you probably confused it with Fatigue

[dawn spindle]

Or 6-1

6-1-1 has a nice ring to it

[past pendant]

Don't forget that with NCGD you can get free attribute points of your choice at levels up. Meaning, mages cannot slowly increase their endurance like they could with vanilla

[dawn spindle]

End-Str-Wil

[hoary trellis]

no, it's fine with STR having some noticeable impact but not overbearing. Warrior characters having high HP is right.

[hoary trellis]

same with luck btw

[dawn spindle]

you can can't get

[past pendant]

Far from vanilla. I thought you were tending to a more faithful system 😉

That's why 1 WIL is useful for HP

[hoary trellis]

4-2-1 is probably fine

[dawn spindle]

6-1-1 is so wrong, oops

Wait.

STR only affects initial HP in vanilla

6-1-1 and have vanilla starting HP

[hoary trellis]

which is a bad system as well

non-retroactive health is stupid

it's one of the most common complaints

in Vanilla

[dawn spindle]

It's rather like the 7's in the vanilla impacts table

...the vanilla HP calc

[dawn spindle]

I think we must keep state-based HP

[past pendant]

I'm glad you two are here thinking on impacts. Did you reach an agreement?

[hoary trellis]

BTW considering how high HP can make high lvls tanky no matter whether they should or shouldn't be, I would love to have an option to pick no HP per lvl gain.

I picked the lowest HP gain in the options

and it still felt too high for me later on

consider this a challenge option

[dawn spindle]

One of the changes from vanilla that NCGD made was a lot of spreading around the HP, with the state-based calc, and the additional impact payouts for END

I think the vanilla column totals will help with this

[past pendant]

The other topic I'm not sure yet is: how many attribute growth points per major/minor skill increase?
Because I'm vanilla you could get 3 to 15 attribute points per level, thus per 10 major/minor skill increases, this 0.3 to 1.5 per skill increase

[hoary trellis]

how does it work currently?

[past pendant]

Currently I set 0.4 for slow growth, 0.6 normal, 0.8 fast

[dawn spindle]

I didn't do the math, but was thinking this. Thought of a possible fraction of an attribute for all skills each level, but that's not right.

[hoary trellis]

so I'm using the slowest option

[past pendant]

And as misc skills have a 50% reduction, it's half growth when they increase

[past pendant]

With the beta archive?

[hoary trellis]

no, before that 😄

I used slow attribute growth

recent changes are untested

[dawn spindle]

@mym if there is a level up window, the player can use it to choose which attribute to give 1pt to (that was not one of the two highest attributes raised since the last level?)

@hoary trellis do you think I represented you well with my 0.5b, above? Should we ship that and get more eyes on it?

The player getting to dole out attributes each level was a big part of the reward, for sure.

[past pendant]

Not possible with NCGD, and not wanted. NCGD = natural and automatic progression, the opposite of the level up window

[past pendant]

Me too. Slow is good I think. But it's hard to compare with the beta because there are so many different factors now

[hoary trellis]

I still think that there is too much random stuff here. These +1 PER buffs for random skills are not good IMO. I'm also wondering whether a skill like Axe deserves +2 SPE at all. This is as much as Light Armor, more than Blunt Weapon and Long Blade. Doesn't seem right. Endurance would be a better pick, for example. I also think that higher END for armor skills instead of Luck should be considered, as well as higher Luck impact for security. Mym's idea of making some magic skills more varied is worth considering as well. For example, Restoration deals with buffing the body and healing, so it can easily have some impact on some physical attributes (any physical attribute tbh). Alchemy can have some impact on Endurance as it involves personal experimentation. Enchant could have some Luck impact as it's heavily chance-based.

I think that most skills are fine. It's the outliners which seem strange.

[swift hornet]

This is the archive I use to test the bug fix right? Making sure.

[hoary trellis]

Right. So what do you think about giving some skills a little more Luck impact while removing it from others entirely? To give an example: no impact on Luck for Heavy Armor, Medium Armor, Axe or Spear. Higher impact for Security and Enchant. Maybe higher for Armorer as well so we would have 3 skills - 1 from each category (combat/stealth/magic) with higher than average Luck impact. Note that I picked utility skills.

[swift hornet]

That seems insanely unfair. You've always been able to increase luck in vanilla by 1 point no matter what. Luck matters a pretty reasonable amount to just not have it be present on many skills.

[dawn spindle]

I only changed the ordering from v0.5b

[swift hornet]

Axe definitely deserves speed. Axe fighting takes genuine speed in order to actually pull off. Long blade is way more about Agility and technique

[dawn spindle]

Credit to @hoary trellis for great feedback!

[hoary trellis]

Speed is how fast a character moves. Axe doesn't make you move faster than Long Blade or Blunt Weapon.

[dawn spindle]

I know...that was totally a gameplay and chart balance sop 😊

[swift hornet]

Almost every account of axe fighting is either standing still or moving around enemies at at fast pace. It actively encourages your ability to out pace your opponent with footwork.

[dawn spindle]

But battleaxe surely goes through the air faster than warhammer? Kinda almost? 🤣

Yes it really wants AGI

Like everything else haha

Long blade has to be top AGI weapon though

I can see END also for Axe

I really just wanted it to have a niche, not being the most popular

[swift hornet]

The weapons i feel that shouldn't give speed is spear and blunt. Especially spear though. Almost every spear technique involves standing to defend your opponent and use your reach.

You simply don't have to run very fast when your weapon is twice as long and theirs lol.

[hoary trellis]

Warhammers and battleaxes are similar. It's staves which are different

[dawn spindle]

Blunt also includes staves, that why SPD is there for 1

[hoary trellis]

Spear relies on reach more than speed, agreed

[dawn spindle]

Spear I am 💯 on board

4 END instead

Already in 0.6

[swift hornet]

I mean, fictional warhammers are just way bigger than normal warhammers. Blunt weapons in general involve defensive techniques. They are designed to be short for maximum impact and energy transfer.

Axes almost universally encourage aggressive techniques meant to Overwhelm the opponent and remove their weapon from presence.

[dawn spindle]

I would even fudge END/SPD totals to make that happen for Spear

[hoary trellis]

You know that Morrowind has 2H warhammers, right?

[swift hornet]

The only axe that's different is a pole axe which is a spear anyway.

[hoary trellis]

It's not like real life 1h warhammer

[swift hornet]

Im aware, but there's no actual way to use those effectively. It's purely a fantasy implementation

[dawn spindle]

Mass is key to Blunt effectiveness, so STR. But staves...

[swift hornet]

Im talking about what makes logical sense with stats. Nobody could reasonably use a morrowind warhammer at a reasonable level lol. That thing is the size of your torso

[dawn spindle]

These definitely should not be fast, but staves should. Tough one. That's why I made it the balanced STR weapon.

[hoary trellis]

In the lore warhammers are big 2h weapons that crush armor. This is what we are dealing with

[hoary trellis]

I agree

[dawn spindle]

It would be if Blunt did more damage to armor. Maybe someday.

[swift hornet]

Which still involves a more measured approach. Speed and aggression doesn't work with a big 2 handed hammer like that anyway. Or even a staff.

The staff is the outlier here. Every other blunt weapon follows a similar ideology.

[hoary trellis]

I would definitely want to close on my enemy fast with a mace

[dawn spindle]

Big hammer guys will want STR from other skills anyway

[hoary trellis]

it has poor reach

[swift hornet]

One handed maces do yes. But they come with shields.

[hoary trellis]

same as axes

same as swords

[swift hornet]

And involve a more defensive approach.

[dawn spindle]

*some axes
*some swords

[swift hornet]

Axes rely on footwork. As maces usually only need a single hit.

[hoary trellis]

son

when in doubt

you hit twice

😄

[swift hornet]

You have infinite time for the 2nd hit because their lungs are collapsed and ribs are crushed lol. Or they are unconscious if you got a head hit.

[dawn spindle]

Or with a stave, you hit 1000x

[hoary trellis]

this is pure speculation because when you crack somebody's skull with an axe then they tend to be dead or heavily wounded as well

[dawn spindle]

Better?

[swift hornet]

The difference is axes usually don't defeat armor in a single swing. Warhammers and maces were literally designed for exactly that purpose.

[hoary trellis]

ah, anti-armor, yeah

axes are like sth between a sword and a mace

better than sword against armor

worse than a mace

anyway, maybe let's get back on topic. I don't want to go too far into theoritical stuff which is not represented in-game as there is no such thing as blunt damage here

this is not Kingdom Come Deliverance

although it's a pity because it would be fun to have several dmg types

oh well

[dawn spindle]

Sux that Axe is still giving more speed than Long Blade

[hoary trellis]

should be the same, yeah

[swift hornet]

I don't mind it at all. Long blades just aren't about speed. You have the reach and you have much better defensive properties.

It should definitely have more Agility than anything else as it's the most defensive besides spear.

[dawn spindle]

Aye

[swift hornet]

Spear doesn't need defensive because they never get to you anyway

[swift hornet]

I think short blade should give 1 or 0 strength though. That weapon is literally all speed and precision lol. There's no other way to use them.

[dawn spindle]

Should be less than H2H

[swift hornet]

That's the weapon where you need to close in more than anything else.

[hoary trellis]

this is true, short blades are the least dependent on STR

with HTH you need strength for these punches

[swift hornet]

Yeah, like either yiu hit a vital area, or you don't lol

[dawn spindle]

Where you stick it matters, it's like a shortest spear, good AGI

3-3-1 AGI SPD STR

[hoary trellis]

1 STR impact for short blade IMO

so the least of all weapons

[swift hornet]

Yeah. Hand to hand needs basically every stat.

[hoary trellis]

wakizashi is the only "sword" here

[swift hornet]

And those are still shorter than basicslly any mace.

[hoary trellis]

other blades are even shorter

[dawn spindle]

Short swords could argue for 2 STR for Short Blade

[hoary trellis]

still reliant on speed and precision above anything else

[dawn spindle]

Amen

[hoary trellis]

some strength, sure

1

😄

[hoary trellis]

but this looks reasonable IMO

we have variations between the weapons

[dawn spindle]

Lots of characters can use Block, so I am flattening it a little

[swift hornet]

I also agree with cybvep about magic needing more variance. Restoration should definitely have some impact on physical stats. You're literally healing wounds and fortifying the body.

[hoary trellis]

Block is Agility and Endurance

some STR as secondary

SPD not important

you have a shield, you don't need speed

[swift hornet]

Yeah, gotta be agile to block, and gotta be able to do it often in most cases.

[hoary trellis]

I will also point out that Agility affects Block chance directly

[swift hornet]

Honestly you don't even need that much strength to block. It's about deflecting attacks anyway. Not just running into them

[dawn spindle]

Yes, it still governs training too

[hoary trellis]

but endurance you need

and strength you need to wield many shields

at least some

[dawn spindle]

SPD and AGI should rule Block, but I see the case for a little END

[hoary trellis]

but it's low impact

SPD is not important for Block

you hide behind a shield

that's why you don't need to be fast

[dawn spindle]

Bucklers though

[hoary trellis]

we even have tower shields in-game

do we have bucklers?

is there even 1 buckler?

most shields seem quite big

[swift hornet]

They come to you if you have a shield. Or you approach in a cautious way to make sure you block incoming attacks. No sense having a shield if you're going too fast to even see the attacks coming.

[hoary trellis]

or huge

[dawn spindle]

I'm with this sentiment

[hoary trellis]

yeah, SPD is literally the opposite of what you need with shields

[dawn spindle]

Okay

I pulled 0.7 back

[hoary trellis]

😄

we will get there

[hoary trellis]

this is a good baseline for these weapons IMO

[swift hornet]

Do i use this file you have with NCDG? Loading after it?

[hoary trellis]

this is looking better. We are improving. Evolving.

[dawn spindle]

I will need to update the descriptions in the omwaddon once we finalize. The omwaddon also contains the governing attributes.

Also need to update the configuration.lua with the new values once we finalize

Skill choices in chargen are going to be so much more interesting and offer real variety in builds.

[hoary trellis]

we need to have a talk about variety in the magic skills

Restoration seems like a prime candidate

to make it more like Illusion

but with focus on physical attributes

that +2 PER is off here

it should go to sth else

[past pendant]

You do have to quickly move your shield to the right place

[dawn spindle]

Not really 🙂

Maybe it was a bluff.

[hoary trellis]

this is agility

speed is how fast you run in-game

not how fast you move a shield

[dawn spindle]

To see if daddy was watching 😈

[hoary trellis]

agility affects block chance

[past pendant]

But speed is ambiguous: movement in space or movement of your members?

[hoary trellis]

in-game

it's running

how fast you move

not how fast you attack

not your dexterity

with 200 SPD you attack at the same rate

[past pendant]

Then short blades should not impact speed

[hoary trellis]

they should because you need to move fast

to close the distance

or you are cooked

they are most reliant on speed out of all weapons

they have no reach

it's speed and agility/precision

[past pendant]

Makes sense

[dawn spindle]

Ah, if only Speed affected weapon speed. Weird how it rules Short Blade. not

[hoary trellis]

same with hand to hand - you need to be fast because you have no reach

obv in-game hand to hand fighting is taking into account its fantasy nature so we can imagine some fantasy monk-style combat styles and such

and we have beast races which specialise in hth combat because they have claws and such

but they all have low reach so need speed

[dawn spindle]

I know mym is eager to release 4.0 soon, so I hope we can get a good agreement on what to ship impact-wise soon

I am having wrist surgery in the morning and won't be typing for a week or two

[hoary trellis]

I'm generally fine with this. It's better than what we used to have, I think

but some variety for magic skills would be interesting

[dawn spindle]

I could not justify physical attributes for magic skills

[hoary trellis]

@past pendant @swift hornet would you change anything regarding magic skills? If yes, then what?

[dawn spindle]

Half the current HP effect from WIS probably where to start?

[hoary trellis]

frankly the 4-2-1 ratio is fine and not a big deal at all

[dawn spindle]

I would point out that no two magic skills are sharing the same payout in 0.7

[swift hornet]

in concept it think it makes sense for some magical stats to have minor physical attribute impact, but that makes spellswords like, way too good

[past pendant]

They look great

[swift hornet]

that's my only thing, like actual balance at that point

[hoary trellis]

I think that for variety Restoration could have +2 PER removed and changed into sth physical. However, it's not important enough to warrant delaying the release IMO

so 0.7 table is "good enough", I say

not perfect

[past pendant]

I like that +2 PER

[hoary trellis]

but doesn't have to be

[dawn spindle]

Restoration could give the user HP, I kinda buy that. I think Spellswords will have more variety as a group if the physical traits are all coming from mundane skills

[hoary trellis]

well Restoration is also a skill often picked by Crusaders, Paladins, Monks and such, so they probably all need HP which screams END

but then, they will have other skills

[dawn spindle]

^ this is where the character flavor is

[hoary trellis]

PER fits them as well, I guess

[dawn spindle]

H2H and Armorer could make sense

[hoary trellis]

I see no tough opposition here, so I think that we finally reached sth decent which is fit for release

[dawn spindle]

At the end of the day, even less PER than current NCGD (all 27s across the bottom), it all has to go somehwere, and it's one of the main challenges for allotting the impacts

[swift hornet]

where is the archive i'm supposed to test btw?

[dawn spindle]

So I have chosen the "clericky" skills for some PER, and the commercial skills

[past pendant]

Up up up 😅

[dawn spindle]

Perhaps more "monky" than "clericky"

Blunt had PER at one point, but warhammers said NO

[swift hornet]

i'm looking for it how high up is it? lol

found it

[past pendant]

That

[hoary trellis]

blunt is great for clerics! Warrior Priest Warhammer vibe 😄

[dawn spindle]

@past pendant have you been updating the descriptions, or is that on me?

[dawn spindle]

I kind of agree, but those chars should have one or more of the big 3 PER skills

[past pendant]

I did not. It's an old version of your table

[hoary trellis]

what I love about Morrowind and TES in general is that there are no inflexible class systems

[past pendant]

Not on my laptop now

[dawn spindle]

Vanilla MW is a pretty big simplification of Daggerfall chargen for sure

Okay everyone, any final words before I update the mod files and we ship? @swift hornet ?

[hoary trellis]

back to this... how is it possible that some age-old MW script system has that functionality while OpenMW does not?

[hoary trellis]

My final words are: Jaime Lannister sends his regards. Just joking. Godspeed and ALMSIVI

[dawn spindle]

Your input was invaluable!

Very high quality criticism that I thank you for

[hoary trellis]

I love brainstorming

[dawn spindle]

Same. It was a blast.

[hoary trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/captain-america-i-can-do-this-all-day-avengers-endgame-marvel-gif-15551087

[dawn spindle]

Chargen is so much deeper with this style of distribution, we are truly Making Chargen Great Again™.

[swift hornet]

go for it

i just put this archive after NCGD?

[past pendant]

Yeah that's how it is. They added other useful functions for game time and time scale, but no setter for the game time

[past pendant]

So where is the last spreadsheet? 😁

[hoary trellis]

It's this one

The latest

[hoary trellis]

This is annoying because training takes far too little time in-game.

How about that Well Rested bonus? Possible?

[past pendant]

I'd have to check that mod too

[hoary trellis]

But this wasn't part of a mod

The persuasion mod only added time cost for persuasion

Well Rested is 10% skill gain bonus lasting ~10 hrs after sleeping at least 8 hrs (in a bed)

[past pendant]

Ah sorry. You don't want a release soon, clearly 😁

Dinner time, then I'll think about it

[dawn spindle]

Tada! 0.7 implemented. Add ncgdmw.omwaddon and configuration.lua to the beta above.

I would probably still give Conjuration one of Mysticism's WIL for an INT, thoughts? @mym @hoary trellis @swift hornet ?

[hoary trellis]

no, keep them different.

[dawn spindle]

Ofc, at some point you just have to 🚢

Well, that would make Conjuration be 5-1-1 and Mysticism 5-2

[hoary trellis]

they are more varied right now

[dawn spindle]

Thanks for the sanity check. Brain goes to mush after a while. 😊

[swift hornet]

so, what exactly do i do with this?

[dawn spindle]

Is it right that Mysticism is the king of WIL, or should it trade impacts with Destruction?

[dawn spindle]

You literally quoted your answer in your question...

Those are the two files. Everything else is extra. Replace what current beta has with those instead.

[hoary trellis]

Either one can work. However, Mysticism is a special school of magic so maybe it's appropriate that it has the highest impact for something

[dawn spindle]

All that willpower is just the righteous conviction of the pious, yeah...

[hoary trellis]

the only thing that seems off is that Security is governed by INT. This is the same as Alteration which is obv superior thanks to Open spells and other goodies. AGI would be appropriate

[swift hornet]

so the .yaml file is extra?

[dawn spindle]

Won't be silenced or stilled.

[dawn spindle]

Security is governed by INT, so I wanted that to dominate or at least share major impacts. Also, Security serves as a sort of backdoor INT source.

[hoary trellis]

well it still has that +3 INT, so that will stay. I'm talking about governing attribute. It shouldn't be in competition with Alteration. Just saying.

[dawn spindle]

Governed attributes don't really compete in game, so you must mean you would put more INT in Alteration

[hoary trellis]

No, I mean that Security training won't be restricted by INT but by AGI instead

[dawn spindle]

Either way, locks are complex and need INT for sure

[hoary trellis]

which is better because otherwise you might just as well go for Alteration

[dawn spindle]

They impact/develop different attributes still

[hoary trellis]

we already discussed this, so we are leaving this at +3 INT for now. +3 AGI is the same. It's 50/50 here.