#wiki-related-chatroom

1 messages · Page 71 of 1

idle tangle
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Imagine finding out you are slightly handicapped in the game because of your clock lol.

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It also doesn't explain the diff between live and Sandbox yet.

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but ty Evan

worldly salmon
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This is mostly what I was thinking

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The inconsistency may be caused by when you’re actually initiating the reload

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maybe some rounding error is causing a damage tick to be eaten up

idle tangle
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Still doesn't explain the difference between live and sandbox (if there is one, both Meat and I's sample size could be wrong?)

worldly salmon
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TGS has provided footage which implies that it’s not consistent on live either

idle tangle
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well it could. It could mean Sandbox is looking at a different clock

worldly salmon
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Remember that video he posted?

idle tangle
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true

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Could it be server ping?

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I don't know where Meat lives, but I am in NZ and Scout is in France (I assume).

worldly salmon
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Ping issues should be nonexistent solo, no?

idle tangle
worldly salmon
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what I mean is that ping ms delay literally doesn’t exist if you’re running the lobby for yourself

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Not to say I know much about how ping works, I admit I’m out of my league here

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but this bug appears (to me) to be a rounding error regarding tick rates

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Because enemies are literally left with exactly one damage instance of electrocution as health

floral drift
worldly salmon
floral drift
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@idle tangle after doing a full hard-reset of modio on my local computer, i got mods to work again.

i think i found the replication case

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it's not the DoT that's leaving them at 3hp

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it's the instant-regrowing Light Armor

idle tangle
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which isn't happening live?

worldly salmon
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so it’s not just the head plate then?

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because he’s hitting The abdomen in the videos

idle tangle
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And why is my damage displayed not 15 then 12?

floral drift
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first, do you know what the "regrowing armor" bug is?

as far as i'm aware, the following Light Armor plates on Grunt are affected:

  • Thorax Left and Right (aka Head plates)
  • 5/6 rear legs

what happens is that even though the damage should break the plate, it instead seems to be invulnerable and it either doesn't break or it instantly "regrows" a replacement armor plate.

worldly salmon
floral drift
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i'd have to look up the documentation that Lunari and Evan did for Jira, but from the tests i just did in Sandbox i was able to consistently 2-shot ER kill when breaking the 3 armor plates on grunt Abdomen, or the 4 armor plates on the two front legs.

the only times they wouldn't die from 2-shot ER was when i shot the unbreakable/regrowing armor plates

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which seems to indicate that the unbreakable/regrow plates are the culprit, rather than the DoT

idle tangle
worldly salmon
floral drift
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i think it's doing the latter - 15 on first shot, 12 on second, then "72" -> 60 DoT

idle tangle
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But I am certain Meat my shots are both doing 15

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You can see in the two vids.

worldly salmon
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How the hell is the second grunt not dying in this first vid

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Here

floral drift
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there is conflicting data. i don't know what's going on; i'm using the scientific method to figure things out.

the original claim was "at 18 damage and 600% AB, ER can't 2-shot kill Haz4+ Grunts"

it has since been revised to "... ER can sometimes get the 2-shot, but we haven't figured out why"

possible explanations:

  • DoT doesn't do full 72 damage
  • Armor plate still reduces the Direct Damage of one or more shots
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in Sandbox, i used ER to 2-shot 40 grunts in 4 magazines/reloads, and the only 4 that lived were the ones that i shot in the invuln/regrowing armor plates

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however, Notbad's videos conflict with that data -- it seems all of his tests left the grunts alive

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both of us were able to consistently kill in regular missions

worldly salmon
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There is a video that TGS has linked us of an entire match running ER and he says there are examples of the bug happening in his live gameplay

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I’d have to link it though, and it’s like 20 mins

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So I haven’t combed through it

idle tangle
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Vid 1 shows 1 dying, 1 not

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Vid 2 shows none dying

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In the majority of cases not videod, the Grunts don't die on Sandbox

worldly salmon
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I’ll have to comb through TGS’s video on his gameplay

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he says there are examples but I want to make sure there aren’t any shenanigans going on

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this is such a sick puzzle dude

idle tangle
worldly salmon
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how 2 go insane

floral drift
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i have gathered more evidence that the Light Armor is the culprit, not the DoT

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at 18 damage per bullet and 600% AB, it should take exactly 6 bodyshots to kill a Grunt on Haz4+

18*6/1.2 = 90

when shooting a Grunt on Solo Haz4 in the same Thorax armor plate (player's right side, grunt's left), it takes 8 shots to kill. the first shot does 15, the next six shots do 12, and it has 3 HP remaining for the 8th and final shot.

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this supports the hypothesis that the 2nd shot in the regrowing armor plates gets reduced -- even though it has 600% AB -- and leaves the Grunt alive at 3hp.

worldly salmon
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that… isn’t the right damage equation I thought?

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We established previously that armor damage was x0.8

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not /1.2

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and no those do not end up being the same

floral drift
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hazard. scaling.

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Light Armor damage reduction is x0.8, that's why shots #2-8 do 12 dmg instead of 15

worldly salmon
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oh

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God damn it these equations

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the /1.2 looked like accounting for ab

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:(

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this still doesn’t make any sense in parallel to notbad’s footage which makes me think some mod shenanigans aren’t turning off correctly maybe?

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How would one fully revert to vanilla if an issue like that showed up

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verify game files?

floral drift
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watching the second video (where both grunts live) at x0.25 speed, i counted 23 ticks of 2.5 damage. that's strong evidence that the DoT is one tick short 🤔

worldly salmon
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I’m also counting 23 on the grunt that actually dies in the first video but I think I missed one?

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the ticks are hard to count because some numbers overlap at some points

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I’m fairly sure it’s 24

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on an unrelated note, glyphids dying in slow motion is kinda funny

gaunt cipher
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This sort of thing is why I would love a "damage history" mod.

worldly salmon
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I’m here counting bouncy numbers on the screen

radiant edge
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Coil gun ignores armor, right

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Like the 20% damage resist has no effect on shots

floral drift
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it should, yes

idle tangle
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I'll confirm that I too spent part of my day looking at floating numbers in slow motion, and I count 23 ticks as well on the grunts that don't die.

floral drift
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so... two bugs? AB + DoT shortage

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same effect, different causes

idle tangle
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And only in Sandbox, most of the time

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Or are live test sample wasn't big enough

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I haven't tried spawning mobs in live yet.

floral drift
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i consistently was killing them in Sandbox. i could only replicate with the AB bug for my tests 🙁

idle tangle
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How would the game derive it's clock?

floral drift
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that is beyond my ken, i apologize

idle tangle
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Hmm, my theory based on what Evan said is if the clock is derived from my comp clock and my clock is checking a server for its time, it could be latency / ping

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But that's a real rough guess based on limited understanding

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But it's why I asked for your location

floral drift
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i answered that a while ago, didn't i?

idle tangle
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Yar

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And your latency/ping would likely be lower

floral drift
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hmm... i think that's a faulty premise

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hosts have no latency

idle tangle
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Probably

floral drift
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this game is peer-to-peer networking for multiplayer; no gameserver coordinator

idle tangle
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Sure, but that's why I was wondering how the game determines its clock

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Because if it determines it based off my clock, and my clock is determined from a server far away, it could be off enough to account for a discrepency

worldly salmon
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When he said “clock” I assumed he meant like, an internal clock

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Which is to say how the game keeps track of its own actions

cerulean berry
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host game ticks

worldly salmon
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sure, that’s the word right?

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I almost wanted to refrain for like, no reason, but yeah, game ticks

idle tangle
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Again, I am speaking out of my depth, but often they use player clocks to determine things when programing

worldly salmon
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my assumption was that something about the game ticks themselves

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being determined by a system clock feels less likely to me but is possible

idle tangle
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Some things are already determined by our system clock I believe

cerulean berry
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Timers in Unreal Engine are measured in seconds and not discrete ticks, so if DoTs are using these timers, then it wouldn't surprise me if they are inconsistent

worldly salmon
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I see

idle tangle
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Anyway, I have a way to test it, and I will. I can set my time instead of it using server time

cerulean berry
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And things like CPU usage or framerate could potentially influence how inconsistent they are depending on how small the timing window is

worldly salmon
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With that insight I wouldn’t be surprised if triggering the dot at specific intervals caused the listed duration of the debuff to occasionally lose a damage tick due to how the timing works

idle tangle
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This would be ok theory if we could replicate it live though

worldly salmon
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yeah, its kind of a complicated issue to replicate because we’d have to know exactly what those timings are and hit them perfectly

cerulean berry
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I'm suggesting is possible factors like higher FPS in a box with no other enemies could influence how DoTs tick, which could explain why you only see such results there

austere fossil
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ime all the lights in the sandbox actually give me worse FPS

worldly salmon
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either way it could result in fps differences that lose the tick

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very interesting…

idle tangle
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It's interesting because this BP is so tight and that is how it came up. I can imagine the Devs going "oh no, the players are missing 2.5 damage, we better expect riots."

floral drift
worldly salmon
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My assumption was MS

floral drift
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milliseconds? 🤔 potentially

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took my a second to figure out that "MS" wasn't referring to my alias, lol

cerulean berry
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No, not whole seconds, I just meant not in discrete ticks

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It's measured in fractional seconds

north tendon
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in the case of engineer weapons and stuff in their sections (primary, secondary, throwables, etc.), is the last weapon in each section the best? or are there cases where each one is better than the other?

worldly salmon
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no actually the game is measured on meatshields per second

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Where you count electrocution damage ticks Manually

cerulean berry
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Just to be clear: I I don't actually know if DoTs use the typical UE timers, just pointing out that's a common way to create such timed events

worldly salmon
north tendon
worldly salmon
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The wiki’s placements of these items in general doesn’t account for their viability

north tendon
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hm ok ill just see which one i like best

worldly salmon
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In a general game balance sense, yes, but that’s kind of a complicated question

glacial topaz
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it is just the order it appears in game ?
we don't place anything using bias for preference

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and it is just a matter of what you have the most fun with
everything works if you know how to use it

north tendon
worldly salmon
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Yeah they’re ordered based on their slot and when you can unlock them

north tendon
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yeah i just have assignments for both of the other primary weapons for engineer

glacial topaz
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Lol, I guess the good tihng of starting earlier is being able to play a looot with a weapon before a new one appears, so it gets easier to learn everything you want
Though basically,
Just try unlocking and using everything, different mods and builds
Wiki can help a lot too, but in the end only you can tell what works and what doesn't

north tendon
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yeah

acoustic scarab
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[–]Marnus71[S] 1 point 8 hours ago*

Curious Greenbeard here! Wiki says the challenges* for each chapter change each cycle, but doesn't say anything about the rewards. The chapter I joined last cycle seems to have the same reward, but that could just be a coincidence.

Does anyone know if the rewards are always the same for each chapter? Thanks!

Rock and Stone!

Should probably do something about that

wraith jewel
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Is the weapon skins gallery being worked on for the new primaries and secondaries? I'd like to see what all the frameworks look like without having to slave away and with limitless prayers for a cargo crate to spawn

silent sierra
glacial topaz
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something interesting, changing the refinery pipe breaking values still didn't change anything on the time it takes to break, found that interesting
considering 99.9% chance I did it correctly

glacial topaz
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for Karls and tips page ?

unknown.png
shell frigate
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Should explicitly mention it's not canonical?

glacial topaz
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isnt that the "theory" part ?

shell frigate
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I don't think it's explicit enougth

glacial topaz
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I can just upload and then others can adjust it too :p
what do I call it ?

shell frigate
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NonCannonWarning?

glacial topaz
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NonFactualWarning ?

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Canon it is, we change it later if anything xD

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Done !
any other page needing it other than tips and karl page ?

glacial topaz
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hmm, I think next up I will work on researching something
probably more swarm information, now that I have new magic powers
point extraction scaling ? or maybe better enemy spawn chance research ? lots of things I can do

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anything related to those topics I can consider

idle tangle
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Has anyone measured the time it takes for the Lok 1 to achieve exactly 1 Lok? I am interested in determining the total time difference for max locks between T4A and B.

glacial topaz
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Isnt that on wiki already ? Lol

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Easy thing to get, tho I cant now

idle tangle
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I'm doing a lot of re testing of builds etc. so please forgive me if I am asking questions on things already known. I was doing a test with ECR Lok 1, and it's ammo spending vs refunding is really weird.

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If I max lock a target, at 16 damage, you expect that I would pay 4 ammo then the Grunt dies to explosion, correct?

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16 * 4 + 50 = 114

glacial topaz
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Not really ,

idle tangle
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On my tests, I am spending anywhere between 7 - 9 ammo

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Even if I account for Armor blocking 20%, the max ammo I should spend is 5

idle tangle
glacial topaz
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You asked if I expect it
Said I dont

idle tangle
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ah ok.

glacial topaz
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It probably just stops firing when it dies

idle tangle
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I always thought the explosion would kill the bug and the gun would refund since the target is dead.

glacial topaz
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No fancy math to guess max bullets

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So guess if explosion was faster it wouldnt fire

idle tangle
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Right, so in the delay between 3 rounds fired and the explosion, the gun still has the chance to fire any other bullets locked, correct?

glacial topaz
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Probably
Will get some numbers soon

idle tangle
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Ya that makes sense, because if 16 damage was reduced by armor, you could fire 9 bullets before the Grunt is dead.

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hence my variation between 7-9 bullets.

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And it only effects ECR, because it dumpsters damage. You basically really need to be good at 3 locks only for it to actually be really efficient. Interesting.

worldly salmon
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that has always been the requirement for effectiveness on ecr

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It’s literally speaking, an added amount of damage per burst target

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to get the value out of that added damage, you need to deal enough damage to bring that enemy within the added damage’s amount so it actually saves time

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It’s a very specific balancing act

idle tangle
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Yar, we clarified my understanding now

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My biggest mistake was assuming explosion occurred on 3, not end of total burst.

glacial topaz
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Lock On Time = 0.095

idle tangle
glacial topaz
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was it confusing ??? smh
I had first suggested it to be removed, then we talked about changing it, and now it was removed

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north tendon
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is there a good build for stubby for multiplayer missons? my current build isnt really performing well and i feel like theres something better

glacial topaz
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you are looking for #drg-chat if you want people to recommend their builds
Wiki channels is for stats and numbers

north tendon
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hmm no one was rteplying so i was trying here

glacial topaz
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just try something different then
only good build is the one that works for you
and only by changing upgrades and trying you can discover

glacial topaz
acoustic scarab
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Both are kind of meaningless without the knowledge of where the player is standing

glacial topaz
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I don't even think the player position matters
anyway to make it more clear ?

glacial topaz
stark tulip
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that should be changed to relative to the core infuser

acoustic scarab
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The text will make sense if we note the perspective

glacial topaz
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actually not about position of players
more about the tower not having a front and a back
so you could say "the left side of the tower"
otherwise you have to create that point of reference

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make a diagram to make it easier to explain platform - tower connections

worldly salmon
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I thought the point of reference was established as the matrix core infuser

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is that not on this page?

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Yes, it literally states the perspective as “while standing on the core infuser”

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So I’m not sure what the confusion is

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If the access platforms are not consistent between games, which we should test that, then the perspective wouldn’t matter

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randomly the left and right would be the top and bottom respectively, and the left and right would be bottom and top respectively

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The information regarding the radial pulse gun platform being relatively opposite of the core infuser should be 100% consistent

glacial topaz
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later on I can make a drawing showing why it is relative and even if you say “while standing on the core infuser” that won't be enough
so a drawing for the page should be nice, I will put that in my plans, though someone can do it first just fine
I have quite a lot of things to take care of

thick pelican
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...Or you can add "and looking at the OMEN Tower" at the end of this sentence

floral drift
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in my mind, it would be easier to map the OMEN event onto a compass rose from the top-down perspective, and say that the core infuser is at "North", the lower module (radial pulse) is opened from the pad located at "South", and the east/west ones open mid/top

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or top/mid, i've never taken the time to figure it out conclusively

idle tangle
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I also like Meats idea for NESW

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Orientation wise though, if I was looking at the Omen, for some reason I'd consider myself sitting South though because I feel like I am looking up the compass not down.

weary sonnet
glacial topaz
glacial topaz
glacial topaz
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on another note, funny how PE swarm interval was aways near 5mins when I set the base swarm time to that, but if try making it 3min, it didn't got that low , I didn't try the other way around
probably will need some way to check wave difficulty / spawns, to notice what is being affected
also, interesting how biome enemies mess up with a mission spawn table, like, on sandblasted, thrawler takes space of a special name, mactera and exploder warning messes up it up too
as in, of what I expected, not as in bad,
even made a table trying to notice if some enemies are more rare, guess I need more, cuz in 10 missions I got no acid spitters at all, even considered if that is just a web spitter veteran...
will probably focus on PE first, just have to figure out what I can try next for it

weary sonnet
austere fossil
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Somewhat related, has anyone paid attention to MEs' orientation with respect to what the in-game compass says? i.e. is the core infuser always on the same side of the machine itself or can they spawn at various rotations?

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If it's consistent then 1: that'd simplify your previous discussion and 2: it'd make finding the core infuser easier if there's a bunch of extra terrain bits spawned in the room on top of it (e.g in Crystalline Caverns)

weary sonnet
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Hum, spawned a bunch myself for tests a while ago, but didn’t really pay attention, what I can tell is that it try to follow the ground level and it seems to be able to rotate freely to try to adjust to the ground level (and very often fail and spawn partially in the ground when spawned manually/through mods).

Not sure if the core infuser is always north or something like that, didn’t check that part.

glacial topaz
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Wait, is that about Core infuser Vs Machinery (so always a fixed relation, as if they are always part of the same mesh)
or Core infuser - World (meaning it rotates in relation to the machinery, but always end up north or so)

covert sinew
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I can keep a lookout for rotation of the Machine Events when they pop up for me

glacial topaz
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how can you even tell rotation of machine events ?
Omem seems to be the only one that isn't perfectly symmetrical

covert sinew
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Suppose I'll see when I get there. Lol

First thing to note is where the Core Infuser spawns. South-East-North-West. In relation to just where the ME itself is.

weary sonnet
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the core infuser is physically linked to the machine event, but I don’t know if the spawn rotation of the machine even is fixed or not, at least on one axis.

cerulean berry
weary sonnet
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Ok, good to know, so I would need a natural spawn to be sure.

young veldt
# glacial topaz eh ?

"proceed with caution" might be overkill, i recommend instead stressing that none of the material is official or from GSG

glacial topaz
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that is the entire wiki xD

covert sinew
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Anyone know how the Boltshark calculates how much ammo you're getting when resupplying?
It seems bugged atm

ashen shell
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is there data on the radius and damage of the explosion from shard diffractor's endothermic explosion oc?

short cloud
worldly salmon
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My understanding was a 3.5m radius for 100% damage and 5m max radius with 50% falloff

glacial topaz
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and mine was 300 dmg 3.5 - 5m radius with 10% falloff lol
just cuz it is the only other radius I can find for it (other than beam itself), I didn't test it tho, so don't count on me

ashen shell
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🤔 now that's fun, 3 different set of numbers from 4 different people

worldly salmon
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Hahah

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I’m going off of stats from exp

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I could very easily be outdated

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In general, it’s comparable to a c4 explosion

glacial topaz
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can we check the damage in game ?
the max one, compared to probably a praetorian ? see if it is 300 or 400, at least that should give a clue
before some special testing is needed

ashen shell
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I have a feel for how strong it is in practice and it's very nice, but I was curious what the hard numbers were

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I'm on console so can't use the damage mods or I'd test myself

glacial topaz
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I meant to just check % of hp bar

worldly salmon
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In solo, praetorians on haz5 have 900 ehp, I think

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The difference between 300 and 400 should be relatively noticable

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300 is 1/3, 400 is a bit less than half of their health

glacial topaz
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Haz 1 is 337, so either kills in 1 hit or not

acoustic scarab
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Funny thing happened to me just now, decided it was relevant enough to put it on the wiki

unknown.png
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A blizzard start can be detected by the slow change in visibility, which lasts 15 seconds. Right after that, the storm itself will start, reducing Dwarf speed to x0.8 and creature speed to x0.9, as well as drastically reducing visibility and cooling everything down. It usually lasts for 30 seconds, with visibility gradually getting back to normal, and ending after 10 seconds. **The start of the first blizzard in a mission (in seconds) is determined by squaring a value between 3 and 50, with later storms having a delay of 5 - 15 minutes. **

By the by, is that really in seconds? I don't recall having a blizzard within the first 7 seconds of every mission in GS

glacial topaz
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considering nothing changed, shouldn't be any different

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3 squared is 9 btw

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also, takes some time fot the blizzard to start

acoustic scarab
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Oooh, squared

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Not square-rooted

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I failed reading comprehension

glacial topaz
glacial topaz
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== also, what is the max mastery as of Season 2 for forge ?

ashen shell
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the haz5 one sounds more doable, so maybe I'll pay more attention the next time that situation comes up

glacial topaz
austere fossil
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So you'd get different "max" levels depending on how many of the S1 stuff you got during the season.

glacial topaz
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problem is that there is so much cosmetics on it lol
my max is like, how close I am to crafting everything that isn't a mineral container

austere fossil
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Ignoring the S1 stuff, then yeah, iirc 96.8 should be your "Mineral Core threshold"

acoustic scarab
glacial topaz
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well, a lot of the technical and other enemy stats aren't explained, like, time to switch targets, distance to aquire targets, I mean, even move speed I think is lacking

glacial topaz
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also wonder if everything should be part of the same paragraph, mainly the delay formula section

acoustic scarab
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I haven't changed anything about that, it's never been its own paragraph. I don't have a strong opinion either way, split if it you want

glacial topaz
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x-x it wasn't ? been so long

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rip, all good then

acoustic scarab
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Well, there used to be a line break, just not the kind that is recognized by the wiki 😉

unknown.png
glacial topaz
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maybe the break was there long ago when I first wrote it ?

acoustic scarab
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Should be easy enough to find out by clicking through earlier editions

glacial topaz
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I mean, before gamepedia got killed by fandom

acoustic scarab
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The history and edits are still there, all 4 years of Glacial Strata's changes

naive bone
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I have a question for the wiki team. Does someone know how the magnetic shafts mod on the Nishanka Boltshark X-80 exacly works? How much damage is added on impact when a arrow is in a electric field and are arrows simply curved to the center of an enemy or the weekpoints? Also if anyone as additionnal information on the Endothermic Explosion overclock for the Shard Diffractor off the engi i would like to know it. Thank you

floral drift
# naive bone I have a question for the wiki team. Does someone know how the magnetic shafts m...

To the best of my current knowledge:

  • Magnetic Shafts does +25% damage to enemies that are Electrocuted or in IFG's effect
  • I believe it pulls arrows toward center mass; I don't know the formula
  • Endothermic Explosion triggers after 1.5 seconds (20 ammo) of firing at a platform, dealing 300 Explosive-element Radial Damage in a 5m radius. (3.5m max damage radius, falls off to 10% at max radius). Carves 3m diameter hole in terrain.
glacial topaz
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I mean, given how the entire ricochet stuff works
if for some reason they decided to make magnetic shafts completly different, maybe they would make that clear on the description ?

naive bone
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thanks!

radiant edge
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I don't know if this is just me but it seems like Gamma Contamination OC doesn't work if you're shooting at unbreakable armor

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Can anyone else confirm

worldly salmon
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as far as i know this is confirmed in a bug report

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i suppose they havent fixed it yet

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im fairly sure it just cant trigger off of armor in general by the description of the bug

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but im kinda less sure of that

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i know for sure attempting to irradiate an oppressor will fail if you aren't aiming at their exposed weakpoint

thick pelican
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It doesn't work on Armor. Period

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Gotta aim at exposed flesh

ashen shell
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shooting the center of a platform still leaves a ring of the platform left afterwards which can be used to explode a few more times, so it's definitely not 3m

austere fossil
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iirc, plats are about 4m across so a 3m hole in the middle leaving just a ring sounds about spot on to me.

ashen shell
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oh whoops mb, missed that he said diameter not radius

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just defaulted to radius in my mind since most everything else I can think of uses radius

austere fossil
#

I think C4 is the only thing in-game with a changeable carve stat and it uses "carve diameter" despite using radius for it's damage area stat

ashen shell
#

oh, guess I completely missed that c4 uses diameter for carve too, always filed it under 'k it's a big number, not worrying about it' and figured it was radius too

austere fossil
#

The 2 kinda exceptions being Coil Gun+Mole but that's only length and PGL+Fat Boy but that's a hidden stat

#

Speaking of Fat Boy changing the PGL's carve size we should probably add that to it's explanation section on the PGL page. Could also add it to the OC table like how the dmg element change footnote for Hyper Prop is done

unknown.png
radiant edge
#

Fat Boy's carve is kinda weird though, isn't it

#

It's like a pita pocket

austere fossil
#

Actually, I think that might just be the PGL, but scaled up by like 4x

austere fossil
#

I think the base PGL carve is wider than it is deep with the orientation dependent on the angle of the surface it hits

#

Right crater was fired vertically into this platform and didn't carve all the way through it
Left crafter was fired horizontally into the edge of a plat placed on top of the first and carved all the way through the bottom plat.

20220526213853_1.jpg
glacial topaz
#

what I can find on variables so far is
Base: Carve Diameter = 2m, // Carve Normal Squeeze = 2
Hyper: Carve Diameter = 1.2m // Carve Noise = 0.2m // Carve Normal Offset = 0.55m // Carve Normal Squeeze = 0.5
Nuke: Carve Diameter = 7m, // Carve Normal Squeeze = 2

austere fossil
#

So yeah, same shape ("squeezed" based on impact surface angle) but 3.5x larger

#

As implied by Hyper's 0.5 squeeze, it is long and skinny, like a shorter, messy version of Coil Gun's carve

#

Same order as before, horizontally into the edge on the left, vertically into the top on the right

20220526215157_1.jpg
glacial topaz
short cloud
austere fossil
#

Just did some tests. My hyper prop would either oneshot them or they'd become hackable, no inbetween

#

hmmm, just went through a lot of oneshotting patrol bots in the head with incendiary Hyper prop and essentially none became hackable
Switched to bodyshots so they'd just overheat and 4/first 11 did

#

well, likely separate thing I'm noticing is that an incendiary Hyper prop headshot on a patrol bot will kill it with direct damage and if it was supposed to become hackable, it does and then the fact it's on fire immediately kills it again

#

The "it's hackable" voicelines when the thing still just dies makes it pretty obvious but I can also see for just a moment in between the deaths that the ones that trigger voicelines do briefly enter the hackable animation

#

Also, hackable Patrol bots are invulnerable to damage but can die to being overheated

#

(fiddling about in sandbox) it doesn't appear to me that intentionally getting a patrol bot close-to-but-not-quite-dead has any effect on hackable rates

bold plover
#

it's like a 25% chance iirc

glacial topaz
#

got me a bit confused in there lol
so: you Always have to bring the HP to 0 to hack it down ?

austere fossil
#

I think so, or at least within a base subata bodyshot

#

(or ignite)

glacial topaz
#

wait, maybe they just mean that since it can be revived, you aren't really killing it ?

#

so not a gameplay thing, more of a wording thing

austere fossil
#

Eh, that change you posted implies you have a choice in the matter

#

to me, it would appear you do not

glacial topaz
#

oh ops, that is true
even more confusing
though not the first time wiki gets false information added

austere fossil
#

It doesn't appear there is any limit on the number of times a single patrol bot may become hackable, just the same 25% chance after it recovers and you kill it again

#

Judging by the number of 3-hackables and the one 4-hackable I got

idle tangle
#

Do Dreadnaughts have a damage threshold before they go grey or again, or is it solely gated by time?

deft charm
#

Depends on the type

idle tangle
#

After some googling OG dread is 25% health it seems?

gaunt cipher
#

There's a damage threshold for OG and hiveguard, you can see it very obviously if you do a lot of damage fast(like with cryo driller)

#

also I believe that twins will always share health at least once but don't quote me on that

#

(unless you do like, embedded det cheese)

idle tangle
#

Perfect ty, I thought there was for sure, but didn't know the percentage either. So in a 4p Haz 5 game, max damage you can do before grey is: 2125

#

I suspect the fastest way to do that is some Leadspray BRT build.

floral drift
# idle tangle After some googling OG dread is 25% health it seems?

last i remember, OG Dread gets health-gated at 30% of max hp per phase. theoretically happens at 70%, 40%, and 10% if you use something like a Minigun with no Cryo.

if you use high-damage weapons like Hyper Propellant + Cryo + IFG, you can do significantly more than 30% damage in a single shot and then the healthgating will activate

#

so, the last tick of damage that pushes it from 29.9% max hp damage to 30+% is what will activate the threshold, but it doesn't get capped at the 0.1% remaining. that's why HP is so effective for pushing the invuln phases

idle tangle
#

That makes perfect sense ty.

acoustic scarab
#

https://youtu.be/C0YtLHwCHPs
Leaving this here for future reference
At mission end, minerals in your pocket are auto-deposited and count as minerals, but they don't provide XP.

tidal thunder
#

Interesting

idle tangle
#

I can't seem to find it on the wiki, but how long does 1 Ommoran Heartstone phase last?

#

If for example, I wanted to pedantically optimize my Scout flare uptime in relation to the phases >_>

floral drift
#

it's been a hot minute since i had to think about how long the phases are. i think it's 60/60/90/90 for a total of 5 minutes?

idle tangle
#

Huh, so 75 * 4 for exacties, 105 * 3 for some wiggle room/waste depending on how you look at it.

floral drift
#

5 60s would just be split over phases 3/4

idle tangle
#

Shortest duration for 1 flare is 75 though

#

t.t

floral drift
#

sadness

idle tangle
#

There is no delay between phases, correct?

floral drift
#

i'm not aware of delay. haven't paid a lot of attention to it

idle tangle
#

alright, i'll try to pay attention next time and report back.

covert sinew
#

As far as I know there is no Delay
The ommoran goes through it's 'end of phase' explosion right before the phase ends from what i remember

#

Then just segments into the other starting immediately once the previous phase bar is gone

acoustic scarab
#

Should be easy enough to stopwatch from any of the dev streams

glacial topaz
#

same duration no matter player and hazard count ?

acoustic scarab
idle tangle
#

So that is 60, 60, 75, 105 it seems

#

Same 5 minute duration though

#

And possibly a 5 second delay between phases

spring pier
#

how does the game define radius? it feels like the mentioned effective radius is actually the diameter of an AoE

weary sonnet
spring pier
#

So radius ingame is definitely a radius and not a diameter

#

But did you mean that the radius listed in the weapon stats in the game as
All radius including the yellow one or maximum damage radius which is the red one

weary sonnet
#

All radii in game are the yellow one, so far in game there is no way to know how big the red one is.

spring pier
#

Okay good to know. Thanks for the info

stable valley
#

I tried to test it myself but I forgot to disable Bosco and I won't be at my computer for a few days. Does anyone know if the Wave Cooker's damage is scaled by the frozen enemy multiplier when damaging frozen targets?

covert sinew
#

It does im pretty sure

glacial topaz
#

did the person that said temp shock might have been placebo or something similar reach any conclusion ?
on how effective it was against grunts (Microwave temp shock vs grunts)

covert sinew
#

Afaik
As in Temp shock has a 25% chance to proc. The damage you'd do to Frozen Grunts on average would be enough to kill them from dmg, before or nearly right as temp shock procs.
Only time Temp Shock is better is if you proc temp shock in the first 1-3 shots.

glacial topaz
#

guards and slashers included ?
I mean, given how weak regular grunt is

covert sinew
#

Dont really know

Given how CwC does 7 dmg by base, (21 to frozen)
And with 3 ammo spent, you have a 58% chance to hit temp shock for 200 dmg vs 63 dmg done to frozen target from the ammo spent
I'd just assume that it's more worth it on Guards and Slashers.

Not sure what the average ammo spent for a temp shock is.
8 ammo spent nearly guarantees a temp shock at 90% probability to proc

glacial topaz
#

well, I guess you can get unlucky and not trigger it on a single guard
though given you use it multiple times, most guards you will save ammo with temp shock

covert sinew
#

Maybe
Would be more fair to find an 'Average' ammo spent for a Temp shock
So we know what the 200dmg Temp Shock is competing against dmg per ammo used

glacial topaz
#

given guards fire resistance, I guess the frozen damage would be 18.375 / ammo
making you need 11 ammo to deal more damage compared to the 200 from the shock
18 ammo to kill a full HP haz4+ guard
, lots of variables to consider, as the HP of guard after being frozen...

unknown.png
covert sinew
#

11 ammo spent gives you a near 96% chance to proc until that point

#

oh wait you have the % there

#

Add another pillar with 'Total Dmg Done excluding temp shock' maybe?
Can give a clearer picture

glacial topaz
#

always trying to not consider damage over 0HP
which is why the last one is 324 exactly

unknown.png
covert sinew
#

Always just nice to know.
Seems you get over the 200 dmg margin at 11 ammo.
And 11 ammo is a 95% chance to proc, so you should proc it before reaching that much ammo spent.
Making Temp Shock do more dmg overall.
but grunts die at 6 ammo spent, which is 82% chance to proc soo..?
Idk what conclusion to really draw from this

Temp Shock isn't effective at killing Grunts faster on average, but you can have lucky rolls and kill em sooner.
but it's more effective at higher hp targets?

glacial topaz
#

was thinking about guards only tho
grunts should be easier I guess, I guess I can try changing the values,

thick pelican
#

@idle tangle You're up

idle tangle
#

Hi

#

Just getting up to speed

#

The issue comes around with how you are using temp shock

#

And whether or not it is with Cryo, or Fire of course

#

My incomplete manifesto is here:

#

The TLDR; is with Cryo, against groups, mostly a placebo

#

Against individual Frozen targets? Good against Guards +, but barely.

spiral granite
#

Guys what are the best perks to use while in a group and solo?

idle tangle
thick pelican
idle tangle
#

Anyway

spiral granite
#

Oooh I'm sorry

#

But thanks lol

idle tangle
#

Against groups with Fire

#

Also mostly a placebo against Grunts

#

But efficient vs Slashers and Guards

#

This chart explained it well, credit to Deathburst

#

The top line represents the amount of bugs you are targetting

#

Calculate a fail rate of 1 bug

#

So if targeting 10 bugs, you want a fail rate of 10%

#

That tells you the average ammo you will spend on the left

#

To kill all the bugs in that group via temp shock

#

With a 1 bug fail rate.

#

So again, it depends on how you are using the Cooker

#

With Cryo, Boiler Ray blows Tempshock out of the water against groups

#

Even Guards

#

The average ammo over time against an individual target is 4 btw to temp shock, for any math you want to verify. The average against groups is "see chart above"

glacial topaz
#

also, the placebo part means "you are not getting more ammo efficieny by equiping TempShock" ?
as in, it basically doesn't matter if you have it on or not for guards and less
also, guess the complicated part of groups is it is gonna mix multiple enemy types, and other stuff

idle tangle
#

Correct

#

But even in multi enemy scenarios, to temp shock every bug takes a estimated average of 16 ammo

#

Against 10 targets

#

7 * 16 is 112 damage for example

#

So even with Fire, Grunts are dead anyway and Slashers are mostly dead, especially once you factor in ignite damage

#

You get some effiency vs Slashers and a lot vs Guards.

#

Spending 16 ammo to kill Grunts and Boiler Ray explosion them is less palatable then spending 4 to 5.

#

My conclusion then was, if you can't trigger free on fire spread, Temp Shock is mostly a small group/individual target mod

#

But against big groups, fire spread is easy. Where it falls apart is medium sized packs

glacial topaz
#

I will figure out a more efficient way to calculate how much more damage per ammo I can get with and without Temp Shock I guess
guess checking for on fire things should be good too

idle tangle
#

When you temp shock early, before spreading fire to a Neighbour, it will really kill it's efficiency against groups.

idle tangle
#

57 damage per ammo spent.

#

Oh without

glacial topaz
#

depends on case, 200 is overkilling, so you have to be careful with that

#

like, 200 damage with 20 hp left, vs with 180 left

idle tangle
#

Oh sure

#

But I don't know if that number matters, you have to work with the average above, since sometimes it procs early, not late

#

I had an original example of a group of 6 bugs:

#

4 Grunts, 1 Slasher, 1 Guard

#

That gives around a 93% chance of 1 Boiler Ray proc from the Grunts dying first

#

Which lowers the EHP of the Guard by 70

#

So you are aiming for temp proccing them all before you unleash 254 damage (where Boiler Ray adds it's contribution)

#

A group of 6 is around 11 to 12 ammo to temp shock em all.

#

7 * 12 = 84, so Fire Temp Shock beats Boiler Ray

#

84 * 3 is 252 though

#

Cryo Boiler Ray matches Cryo Temp

#

That math excludes the chance of multiple Boiler Ray explosions, which you could calculate for and adjust the average damage expected. Also, I have yet to confirm this, but there is a possibility explosions themselves can trigger further explosions too.

#

In that example, it doesn't matter to much, the 4 Grunts die at the same time, and anywhere between 1 to 4 explosions occur, but those explosions might be able to trigger an additional chance for the Slasher to explode as well.

#

So potentially 5, 50% coin tosses to determine how much explosion damage the Guard takes on average.

glacial topaz
#

wouldn't you just have to make it 100% chance and line up several grunts to test if explosion can chain ?

idle tangle
#

If you do make the mod to test, I demand you line up the grunts like dominos though and then test.

glacial topaz
#

currently trying to optimize free time to just regular playing
though afterwards it should be easy to make it work

idle tangle
#

To be fair, I can test it probably. At 50% chance you would only need to line up 3 Grunts and test a few times to confirm if when Grunt 1 dies, sometimes Grunt 2 and 3 die as well.

idle tangle
#

Hmm, inconclusive, leaning towards it doesn't chain. 3 Grunts is actually hard to test, because they need to be spread apart in a way where the 3rd Grunt won't die to explosion 1, and that is hard to do with Sandbox mode

#

So I tried a brute force approach instead. I spawned multiple 50+ packs of Grunts and looked for Grunts damaged outside of the expected AOE

#

I didn't see any.

#

I figured with a sufficiently dense pack, you would get samples of the entire pack getting damaged / obliterated, but that didn't seem to be the case.

floral drift
#

my current understanding of "explode on death" effects is that they're tied to the killing blow being a damage particle/hitscan fired by the weapon itself. for instance, flamethrower's Targets Explode only works if they're killed by a particle, not the On Fire DoT.

if that's true, then it would make sense that an explosion from Boiler Ray couldn't trigger another explosion from Boiler Ray. it's not like Krieg's Bloodpslosion from BL2

idle tangle
#

Yar, I just had second hand reports that it was happening, but couldn't verify myself.

#

Did a few more runs, still not conclusive, but heavily leaning towards it doesn't chain now. The damage on groups is clearly contained within the expected AOE and no bugs were getting damage outside that line due to chain reactions on potential bugs near the edge.

idle tangle
#

Ok, so after a bit more extrapolation, I was able to draw a few more interesting conclusions (to me at least).

#

Against 6 targets, there is roughly a 83% chance of 2 Boiler Ray Explosions, assuming 4 Grunts, 1 Slasher and 1 Guard.

#

If we sprinkle in 24 on fire damage for the Guard, it means in that group of 6, to kill ALL the enemies with Boiler Ray, with a listed damage of 7, you would need 26 ammo to kill everyone.

#

Temp shock will kill the same 6 in 12 ammo average.

#

However, against 10 targets, with 6 Grunts, 2 Slashers and 2 Guards, Boiler Ray has a 90% chance of 3 explosions occuring.

#

Meaning the ammo required to kill 10 targets with Boiler Ray at 7 listed damage is 15 (but it actually takes 16 ammo to kill a Grunt)

#

and temp shock will kill the same group in a average of 16 ammo spent.

#

So for Fire specifically, Temp Shock is better than or equal to Boiler Ray against groups 10 or less.

#

Two things against Boiler Ray though to account for: That assumes a mix of lower HP enemies to act as fuel for Boiler Ray, in this example, 6 Grunts.

#

The more higher HP targets in any given group, the better Temp Shock gets.

#

If for whatever reason, 1 lower HP enemy dies before the rest, and it explodes, that 1 enemy will consume all your Boiler Ray fuel and you are capped at 1 explosion for that group.

glacial topaz
#

not that you gonna need more than 1
unless you are talking about how to take on praetorians and similar

idle tangle
#

You do need more than 1

#

For Boiler Ray to be more efficient than Temp Shock in the 10 target scenario, you need 3 explosions to occur simultaenously.

#

There is a 10% chance that won't happen.

#

If two explosions occur, its 21 ammo for Boiler Ray vs 16

glacial topaz
#

1 trigger, not 1 target

idle tangle
#

Right, gotcha

glacial topaz
#

though lol, given guard 324 eHP + 25% res, you gonna need 5 explosions to kill it

idle tangle
#

No, because my assumption is the guard is taking damage

#

So it is 6.1 x 16 + 24 + 210

#

for the 10 target scenario

#

I already accounted for resistances

glacial topaz
#

mine, not yours lol
that is why I said given 324
the less HP, the less explosion you need,

idle tangle
#

Ah ok

#

For cold though, we can 100% see how bad temp shock is now

#

Against 6 targets, it will take 10 or 8 ammo to kill the group (depending on if you take T1 damage or not)

#

Temp kills the group in a average of 12.

#

In the worse case scenario of a group of 2 grunts and 1 Guard, Boiler Ray has a 75% chance of 1 explosion, and will kill the group of three in 14 or 11 ammo

#

Temp Shock might do that in 8 or 9 ammo.

glacial topaz
#

you don't get the explosion vs frozen right

idle tangle
#

no you do

#

that's what makes Boiler Ray so good for Cold.

glacial topaz
#

so basically the boiler takes advantage of grunts low HP to explode them and damage every other stronger enemy around
while Temp shock works at any HP, but doesn't explode
though doesn't it spread some heat or cold around ? can't that chain more temp shocks ?

idle tangle
#

yes, but in colds case, everything dies before that really matters

#

for fire, the free spread absolutely helps fire temp shock, especially if new bugs enter and get set on fire for free.

#

but it also leaves you with a gun that is terrible when things can't be lit on fire, where as with Boiler Ray, you get a gun that is better against distant targets you won't reach for initial ignition.

#

To be fair, based on my conclusion, for fire, Temp shock is actually pretty good

#

It's rare enough you are gonna have 10+ targets in your reticule at once to make Boiler Ray significantly better then temp shock.

#

But in colds case, temp shock is only more efficient at groups of 3 or less, provided at least 2 in that group are Grunts.

#

Basically, use temp shock with cold if you are concerned with the TTK on targets bigger than Grunts in groups of 3 or less. Don't use it as a horde clearing weapon, Boiler Ray beats it in most scenarios. For Fire, tempshock is better or equal against all groups 10 or below, and Boiler Ray significantly suffers against any of those packs that don't have any fuel to feed it.

#

E.g. if 10 Guards are charging at you for whatever reason, you'll really wish you had temp shock instead of Boiler Ray.

glacial topaz
#

X-X with 10 guards the first thing I am gonna use is satchel charge lol

idle tangle
#

ya, fair :p

#

You will need 1 damage upgrade for that though t.t

glacial topaz
#

wonder about it on macteras...
and on warden, use temp shock on the warden, or kill the grunts around it for the boiler

idle tangle
#

hmm.

#

to temp shock a Warden would require I'd say around 5 shocks, if you included on fire damage and re ignition damage.

#

(very rough)

#

So 20 ammo + primary ammo to reignite the Warden

#

to kill the entire pack.

#

Assuming you temp shocked everything (with the grunts dying far earlier than the warden obviously)

#

In a group of 9 grunts and 1 warden, boiler ray would take significantly longer

#

like WAY longer

#

cause the grunts die slowly due to the Warden buff.

#

but even assuming you pulled off 6 explosions in that pack, the Warden takes 82 ammo to kill.

glacial topaz
#

warden do be tanky , so you probably want frozen multiplier or Weakpoint

idle tangle
#

27 ammo to kill if Frozen (21 if you go 9 damage)

#

but, I'd probably take Blisters as well if I was heavy HP hunting with Boiler Ray + Frozen.

gaunt cipher
#

it'll definitely take less than 5 temp shocks to kill a warden counting damage from burn DoT and CRSPR direct and/or sticky flames

#

they only have 1200 HP on h5/4p

idle tangle
#

ya, I was conservative

#

I assumed 200 non Cooker damage for ignition + re ignite, but 400 might be closer.

#

They burn at 50, so that is only 3 ticks of 11 damage

#

(depending on build)

#

Somewhere between 200-400 damage from outside sources feels correct IMO.

#

I do feel that certain Cooker builds with Cryo beat many EPC builds (excluding TCF, but including HH), and also some Subata builds too. For Fire though, despite temp shock cooker being OK, I've yet to find a CRISPR build that truly justifies taking the Cooker. So even though temp shock Cooker mathematically stacks up for CRISPR, it still goes up against the justification required to take it in the first place 😦

#

The best I've found is that temp shock Cooker + CRISPR can kill more big targets total then a Subata with weakpoints smaller than 2 (so Praets and Oppressors basically, I did the numbers), albeit at the cost of some TTK and effort (closer then you would think though). Subata is ignite once and kill fast. Cooker will kill more Praets in relation to its ammo pool, but you have to go through the rigamorole of switching weapons and reigniting your target. It will also assist with groups better than the Subata ever will, but show me a primary CRISPR build that truly cares about that part.

midnight field
#

hey i looked it up on the wiki and it doesnt give a clear answer just says you will get extra credits for eaxch player that extracts so at the end of the mission does just one person need to extract for it to be a victory or all the players? jw ty in advance

glacial topaz
#

only 1

idle tangle
glacial topaz
#

would be pretty annoying to lose because you got 3 inside, but then someone died in a bad spot, wouldn't it lol

midnight field
#

yeah i just asked cuz i did not know and think it costed us a game so better to know for the future tyvm both of you

glacial topaz
#

np

gaunt cipher
worldly salmon
#

i have been very confused about this upgrade

#

i have Seen it work on several occasions

#

but in some matches i straight up have never seen it trigger

gaunt cipher
#

So far in my testing I have not seen it trigger at all. Maybe it only works for clients?

worldly salmon
#

daze has been seeing this issue as well, but what confuses me is that it sometimes decides to just work

#

it doesnt matter if im client or host, to my knowledge, it is dependent on something else

#

i can get on for a test or two actually

#

loading up solo to confirm on my end

#

there is no debuff icon showing and im not really noticing any sort of slowdown, i... think?

#

its supposed to be 80%, right?

#

im not really noticing any slowdown just incase the debuff icon just isnt showing for some reason

#

100% certain it is not working for hosts, at all

#

at least in solo

gaunt cipher
#

I've not seen it work solo or client now, with or without any mods enabled

#

haven't seen it work under any circumstances. might you have seen something else slow the target, like cooker's slow? same icon iirc

worldly salmon
#

its possible

#

my memory isnt infallible

#

they are the same icon but i was certain id seen it actually having an effect in like, one or two games without the cooker

#

for most intents and purposes I think its safe to assume the mod just isnt working at all

#

whatever weirdly specific condition is happening to make the mod work, even if im remembering correctly, still indicates in some way it's fundamentally broken

#

its also possible im just remembering from an old ass patch, actually

#

i think it's just that honestly im remembering from a patch or two ago

glacial topaz
#

Is there any sort of bug around bough cones or sudden deaths? playing solo on Hollow when I drop dead and can't tell why, only thing I remember was a bough cone that looked not fully modeled

floral drift
#

"barrel physics" can get the player dwarf moving so fast they take lethal fall damage, and they apply to both the acorns and tumbleweeds in Hollow Bough (and one of the plants in Azure Weald, too). it's certainly possible one of those things insta-killed you...

#

the only reason barrels don't kill you in Space Rig is due to invulnerability to everything except the hoop

gaunt cipher
#

I've died before due to the game launching me off a slope incredibly fast into the ground, no physics objects required.

glacial topaz
#

Perfect, guessing I wouldn't even notice it happening, and probably should be hard to make it happen by accident ?

floral drift
#

easiest way to replicate that i know of is to jump on top of it, and mid-air hold S to intentionally short the jump. you'll clip the side of it, "barrel physics" shenanigans will ensue, and your character will achieve Mach 2

#

or at least, that's how i did it when Hollow Bough was in experimental. i haven't intentionally done something like that in a long time...

radiant edge
#

I love DRG physics

gaunt cipher
#

Does anyone know the burn/douse/cooling rate values for nemesis offhand?

floral drift
gaunt cipher
#

Hm, 9.75 effective cooling rate then unless I'm missing something. But also that 9.75 cooling goes a lot further since player inflicted heat is getting greatly reduced.

#

Well, better to say it's got a burn temp of 666.66 and 65 cooling.

worldly salmon
#

Effectively, yea

silent sierra
#

Hey, do we have any information on how the Shard Diffractor's recharge time is affected by releasing the beam early? I remember there being patch notes saying that it recharges faster when that happens, but I don't know the formula.

wheat quartz
#

Anyone knows the average tris count for the weapon models?

#

Couldnt find much info on that

glacial topaz
#

seems 10x easier if you ask for the polygon count of a specific weapon
than someone having already made the sum of all and divided

wheat quartz
#

Fair enough

acoustic scarab
#

@neon briar prints a lot of STLs, maybe he can help you?

glacial topaz
#

hope just a few examples will be good so I don't have to go into all 24, for base models
CRPSR = 17'226
M1000 = 4'735
Boomstick = 4'039
Sludge pump = 12'134
Shard Diffractor = 25'864

wheat quartz
glacial topaz
#

No problem

wheat quartz
#

Kinda weird how Shard Diffractor of all things is in such high numbers

#

Suppose it is because of perforations in a lot of places and small bolts and plates in a lot of places

#

But CRPSR also has a lot of simmilarities in this regard, so i would normally expect Diffractor to be not that much higher

glacial topaz
#

if you have any model you want to check you can ask, while I can check

wheat quartz
#

Can you check the Megacorp skin on the Cryo Canon and Shard Diffractor while you're at it

#

Wait, does Megacorp pack even apply to new set of weapons?

glacial topaz
#

just have to find which is megacorp, dont even know how it looks

worldly salmon
glacial topaz
#

17'212 for cryo corp

#

16'646 for shard corp

wheat quartz
#

Thanks again

#

Huh, almost 9k difference

wheat quartz
floral drift
gaunt cipher
#

that is probably intentional tbh. spooky number

glacial topaz
#

would be odd if they picked a value not intentionally
given they have to decide how hard it is to set it on fire

covert sinew
#

I wonder though.
Why give it that 'TemperatureChangeScale'
And not just
set the BurnTemperature to 666 themselves..

is this for everything in the game, or just nemmy?

glacial topaz
#

Because the change scale affects more than just 1 value
it is like having to change 10 values instead of just 1
and not for everything,

covert sinew
#

I guess
Personally I would've just typed all the values in manually, gives me a clearer idea of what I do than having to math it out

weary sonnet
#

In practice they use TemperatureChangeScale as a resistance to temperature.

covert sinew
#

I figured that much.
It gives the Nemesis an ''effective burn temp'' of 666
but

why not just, type in 666, instead of giving it a resistance to temp.
It's just odd to me.

May just be missing some context here

weary sonnet
#

When it comes to displaying stats, we should use effective temperature on the wiki, that already factor TemperatureChangeScale.

glacial topaz
#

I know humans like to find patterns and all, but that is why I think that "666" didn't make sense

covert sinew
#

Yeah or instead of having a resist of 0.15, and temp of 100
just type in 650.

Makes it alot easier when balancing around how ''hard'' it is to burn the Nemmy

weary sonnet
#

Another possible reason is that the maximum reachable temperature for a creature is currently a hardcoded value of 100 (before TCS).

covert sinew
#

Maybe

glacial topaz
#

and don't forget there is warming rate, cooling rate, douse fire and Thaw
you could find a pattern of when change scale is different than 1

covert sinew
#

Just found it odd to do it that way

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

glacial topaz
#

oh x-x, not many have it different than 1 ? as far as I can tell
Brood spawns = 3
Brood nexus = 4
Exploding Plant = 5

Shredder = 0.8
Patrol Bot = 0.6
Robotic Appendage = 0.5
Nemesis = 0.15

covert sinew
#

Interesting..
Exploding plants has a temperature?

weary sonnet
#

Glyphid Grunt Slasher Elite = 0.1
Glyphid Guard Elite = 0.2
Glyphid Acid Spitter Elite = 0.1
Glyphid Menace Elite = 0.1
Glyphid Praetorian Elite = 0.3
Mactera Spawn Elite = 0.2
Mactera Tri-Jaw Elite = 0.2
Mactera Brundle Elite = 0.21
Mactera Grabber Elite = 0.2

glacial topaz
#

Smh, Elite is cheating it isn't it
though I guess the change scale was made for elites ? odd that such old system would only see its use on a much newer addition

weary sonnet
#

It was made for the brood nexus at first iirc.

glacial topaz
#

I feel this is way longer than it should, and always striked me as an odd page
considering it is not like DRG is some rpg with lots of crafting materials, and then it just feels like a compilation of everything you can deposit / collect, even though they are completely different in rules and purposes
https://deeprockgalactic.fandom.com/wiki/Resources

#

at most I would say to just use the names + icons and group them by type
or not sure if best to turn it into a disambiguation page

silent sierra
# covert sinew Yeah or instead of having a resist of 0.15, and temp of 100 just type in 650. ...

Another reason for the temperature change scale I'm pretty sure has to do with heat sources. Every heat source and cold source has its own internal maximum or minimum temperature value at which point it will stop affecting creatures. If the Nemesis and other enemies with TCS values that raise their effective burn temperatures didn't use TCS then balancing the Flamethrower and Incendiary Grenades would be a lot harder.

#

Heat and Cold sources override the maximum and minimum temperatures of creatures, for example cooling a grunt below -30°. If Sticky Flames had a maximum temperature that could work on a creature with a 600+ burn temperature then it would be possible to put down a couple of puddles and ignite an Oppressor with so much heat that it would never cool off before dying.

#

With TCS they can make the player heat sources effective without being broken against most enemies, and still able to ignite things like the Nemesis without needing to change how the weapons are balanced everywhere else in the game.

glacial topaz
covert sinew
#

I've always found every turret to explode, but then again, turrets only spawn nearby the controller itself

wheat quartz
#

I guess that is just a weird way to say that all turrets linked to the TCU explode

#

In case they might make it so several of them can spawn in

lean pebble
covert sinew
#

I'm able to put the pheromone status on the 'Horror' from Haunted Caves
is this intentional?
Seems kinda.. Odd.
But suppose it keeps inline with the fact other slowdown status effects and the like works on him

worldly salmon
#

Sounds intentional enough, it’s not like it’s really affecting the horror in any significant way

#

They can be applied with pheromones like bulks, just don’t really attack back

#

I think it’s probably just left in because it didn’t seem to pose an issue

covert sinew
#

..Except I can make him an instant wave clear with ease, which is permanent :d

Just seems really cheesy

worldly salmon
#

instant wave clear requires activating him yourself by passing by

#

Honestly I don’t see it being that much different from a regular bulk

#

Like, ok it’s permanent

#

The pheromones effect is not

covert sinew
#

I suppose.

#

Horror should just be immune to any and all things.. It's a ghost-

worldly salmon
#

I don’t think it’s the cheesiest thing in the world

#

But also I am open to any cheese involving horror

#

Because I hate the horror

#

Let me use him

wheat quartz
#

Does increasing the microwave gun damage area also decrease its damage

#

It would make sence, since it spreads out way wider

#

But i am not sure

floral drift
#

it can damage more enemies at once, but the damage dealt to the individual enemy is unchanged

wheat quartz
#

Okay, got it

glacial topaz
radiant edge
#

Could be unintentional behavior?

worldly salmon
#

it is 100% not correct

#

the repulsion turret walls absolutely block armskore shots

#

i know that much

glacial topaz
#

💀 if anyone with more knowledge would be kind to fix that

radiant edge
worldly salmon
#

and not penetrating gunner shields is fairly standard assuming anything that would block hitscan (like the repulsor shields do) would also be blocked by gunner’s friendly shield

#

the only one I’m not sure about is betc

autumn flare
#

I’ll also assume they are blocked by Nemesis force shields too, essentially the same as the other shields but of a different shape

#

About to unlock armskore so I can test if no one else has yet

dense vapor
#

can the contagion transmitter damage bonus stack multiple times with different statuses applied or strictly once per enemy? additionally, I'm seeing contradicting info between wiki and karl

glacial topaz
#

They are different projects made by different people, so expected some differences exist

#

Which is why I say to not use info from one on another x-x

silent sierra
#

Also a few of its conditions are bugged and don't work, so Corrosion and it's own Neurotoxin spread won't give the damage multiplier.

#

Neurotoxin from the Gunner's weapons and Neurotoxin Canister do work, and so do the sludge puddles.

worldly salmon
#

what? Really? Corrosion debuff itself doesn’t work still?

#

i thought it was said that was fixed, was that unconfirmed?

#

big rip

silent sierra
#

Yeah, I was surprised to find that it didn't work still as well. They added a reference to the Corrosion debuff's STE file to the list of triggers for the neurotoxin spread, but not the multiplier.

#

The neurotoxin spread works correctly for everything, but the multiplier is still bugged for a few things.

worldly salmon
#

Oh, I see

#

That makes more sense

#

well, alright

#

I’ll bring it up in bug discussion lol

#

Damn you know, that actually makes a lot of sense now

#

I thought the corrosion damage bonus was just bad

#

but it turns out? Literally just not working without puddles

silent sierra
#

Yeah, there are a lot of bugs like this when you know what to look for too. For example, none of the "Bonus vs Electrified" mods or overclocks work with Turret Arc after u34 because it was updated to no longer use the same STE file as the electric crystals and the new STE file was never added to the lists of effects that could trigger such mods.

acoustic scarab
#

Some time ago there was a discussion on whether all of S2 scrip from challenges could be obtained from Sabotages only, or we'd have to do some Rival Presence challenges too.

#

I just wanted to mention that I'm testing for that, and getting close to when we're going to see something valuable

#

Got 7 scrip from Sabotages so far while deliberately rerolling any Rival presence challenges

unknown.png
austere fossil
#

In that same vein I had several days in a row of

  • Have no challenges
  • Receive Sabotage challenge
  • Complete it same day
  • repeat
    Then I let all 3 come in before completing them all and still got Sabotage as the first new challenge a few times.
#

Recently that appears to have stopped and been replaced by similar behavior with the Rival warning challenge

glacial topaz
#

x-x I mean, I guess knowing the chances would help

glacial topaz
#

btw, we didn't add yet the S2 assigment oof
wonder if I had that writen somewhere for later

analog rock
austere fossil
#

Yeah, I thought I remembered they were but my point is mostly it seems to be ordered "Sabotage scrips until they run out, then Rival scrips until they run out"

idle tangle
#

I think it's just random and a coin flip each time can lead to odd spreads across players.

analog rock
#

The way I remember this being explained to me, both sabotage and rival warnings can grant scrips (a set amount for both, not a common pool), and they both have a 50/50 chance to get forced when challenges are chosen...

glacial topaz
#

yea, this is what would cause it to be like season 1

#

Gain X scripts -> use X scripts for 100%

#

the 50/50 chance part not sure
just the part of it being separate

delicate wadi
#

Yeah, not sure if it's the same pool

#

I did do both as they came up and it eventually stopped paying scrip out

kind mica
#

idk if this is the right channel to ask but does the subata 120 actually only have those 7 overclocks that are on the wiki?

glacial topaz
#

Why do you think it has 8 or more ?

#

7 would already be more than the vast majority, that only have 6

weary sonnet
#

Actually it only has 6 overclock atm, not 7, you may have included one that has been removed.

kind mica
#

oh

#

it wasnt the number of overclocks that confused me it was more the overclocks themselves

weary sonnet
#

hum, I only see 6 on the wiki, is there a page where there is 7 mentionned for the subata?

kind mica
#

i may have counted it wrong

#

i will see

glacial topaz
#

counted where ? some wiki page ? in game ?

kind mica
#

wait yeah i counted it wrong

#

6 overclocks

#

on the subata page on the wiki

#

for some reason i saw 7

weary sonnet
#

And this is the good place to mention anything that you find confusing about the wiki, be it because you don’t understand something it or it is worded poorly.

austere fossil
#

I can see someone assuming 2 Clean, 2 Balanced and only noticing the 3 Unstables after a quick glance

kind mica
#

but the reason i asked was because a lot of the of them seem like theyre on the gimmicky side

glacial topaz
#

6 Unstables when

kind mica
#

i just thought it was weird

weary sonnet
#

Chain Hit and Oversized magazine are the only simple one, even the clean OC Homebrew Powder can make you miss some breakpoints so it can be a bit weird or that side for sure.

glacial topaz
#

isn't this wrong ? saying the S2 assigment rewards with that warning

unknown.png
weary sonnet
#

I don’t remember tbh.

kind mica
#

i think its wrong but im not 100% sure

#

i remember playing missions with these warnings before completing this assigment

austere fossil
#

Are you supposed to be locked out of hosting Rival Presence missions before completing it? That's what that would imply

kind mica
#

yeah thats what i understood from it

#

i did host them tho

#

played on solo

glacial topaz
#

the reward text just says "+ 15000 Credits ; + 550 Crafting Minerals;+ 20 Brewing Ingredients;+ 1 Overclock Infused Matrix Core;+ 1 Cosmetic Infused Matrix Core;+ 2 Blank Matrix Cores"

#

can't find anything saying IT unlocks rival warn
but not sure if Rival warn says "needs that" let me see

kind mica
#

oh wait

glacial topaz
#

nah, nothing
just that it is banned on escort and sabotage
would be curious on why it was added, but seems it can be removed

kind mica
#

thats the one that you have to complete missions with that warning

#

ok what i remembered was probably while i was doing that assigment

analog rock
#

Doing the assignment requires doing four missions with the warning, and the warnings are available regardless of the assignment progress

glacial topaz
#

it is just an assigment similar to weekly core hunt
there is nothing special about it, you don't even get cool hats

analog rock
#

Yup, it's just an assignment to pad the terminal a bit

glacial topaz
#

Wonder if at least the rewards and mission types are correct

unknown.png
gaunt cipher
#

Missions look correct to me at least.

worldly salmon
#

yeah, i do remember salvage at mission 3

#

to be honest its kinda weird that theres kinda just a .. random salvage op

floral drift
floral drift
crystal mortar
#

Is anyone working on adding the mission control quotes for the new weapon assignments? I missed listening to them because it's been so long since mission control has said something new and I keep reflexively skipping the dialogue.

night spade
#

Ah, same here…

acoustic scarab
#

Has anyone worked on adding any of the MC lines at all?

crystal mortar
#

Someone did a very thorough job around the time of the major update that added the first set of new secondary weapons.

#

But the article has since been marked as out of date.

acoustic scarab
#

The lines themselves can be found on Crowdin in a matter of minutes, it's not that hard. Might do that today

#

So we always keep saying the Union goals are pulled from the same list. Do we have the actual list anywhere?

analog rock
glacial topaz
#

the issue is getting the union numbers, and other info, the text itself is just a little part of that
MC one was just a matter of people having other stuff to take care of, as it is indeed easy
and owo so much changes on patch notes gonna take some time to update, one of the most interesting being bulk volatile guts interaction being non intended

delicate wadi
#

hey, quick question

#

Does the 'potent special bolts' upgrade work with cyro/fire bolts?

indigo kindle
#

No. Cryo/Fire bolts are not Special ammo. Special bolts are those you choose between in T1 - Chem Explosive, Pheromone and Tasers.

dense vapor
#

appreciate your work nonetheless

delicate wadi
#

Figured I'd ask in case their duration could be modified

glacial topaz
short cloud
#

not x0.8

#

And the RoF of the base gun was changed

glacial topaz
#

smh, why is it missing from patchnotes

#

fixed

#

can we remove those senteces now ?

unknown.png unknown.png unknown.png
rancid blade
#

all of the possible secondary obj say collect 35 hollomite

short cloud
#

it's now 35 hollomite

rancid blade
#

whattt

idle tangle
#

Hmm in the process of fixing Blisters, it looks like they decided the 2.5x damage needed to be changed too

rancid blade
#

i checked at probably the worst time

idle tangle
#

Can someone look at my vid and see if I am crazy?

#

It seems the explosion is multiplied now though by the frozen status

#

(when the Blister pops)

short cloud
short cloud
idle tangle
#

When you shot Blisters with the Micro, it did 1.5x damage to the Blister and 1x damage to the enemy (previously)

#

In my vid, I am only seeing 1.5x damage to the Blister

#

I'm thinking they fixed Blisters for everyone else (which was intuitively the correct thing to do), but nerfed it for the Driller (which was unintuitive, but it was nice single target DPS).

#

@silent sierra (he did the original testing)

austere fossil
#

Did you mean to link to LazyMaybe's video from a week and a half ago?

idle tangle
#

Uh no, lemme fix that

#

Here we go, my bad

austere fossil
#

I'm seeing what appears to be both 2x and 3x against the blister

idle tangle
#

On the second Praet, I only see one instance of 45 damage

austere fossil
#

What? They all look to be 45 once the blister shows up on the second praet

idle tangle
#

Sure, but that would be 27 x 3 x 1.5 right, previously it was suppose to be that AND another instance of 27 damage

#

Unless I've remembered completely wrong.

austere fossil
#

You're missing the /1.2 from (presumably) haz5 1p scaling

idle tangle
#

No, that's not what I mean

austere fossil
#

Which makes the regular shots 9*3/1.2=22.5

idle tangle
#

Ah right

austere fossil
#

Then the blister appears and you start hitting both, but without weakpoint bonus, hence the double to 45

#

Was the CWC getting the 1.5x previously?

idle tangle
#

Yes

#

I think so

#

Ah that would explain the change then

austere fossil
#

The change to "is a weakpoint" might've stripped that from the CWC since it doesn't normally get weakpoint bonuses

idle tangle
#

Right, makes sense

austere fossil
#

Still not sure where the single 67.5 on the first praet is coming from, though

#

Or how you got 178.3 on the first pop

worldly salmon
#

178.3 is most certainly the poison hit, I think

idle tangle
#

The Blister pop is multiplied by frozen now

worldly salmon
#

We’re noticing it’s multiplied by the cryo damage bonus

austere fossil
#

I mean, the second pop was 235 and killed the praet, so was presumably cut a bit short

versed halo
#

Also even if the breakable weakpoint gets destroyed, it can grant copied weakpoint multiplier(the boil must be made before the weakpoint gets destroyed though)

idle tangle
austere fossil
#

There looks to be some rounding weirdness since the first should be 1125 but it's 1126.3 while I think the second should be 3300 but it's 3308.8

idle tangle
#

Is it possible the pop is being multiplied by 1.5?

austere fossil
#

Oh, that was actually ignoring the pop

idle tangle
#

Cause 80 * 3, is 240. 240 / 1.2 should be 200

versed halo
idle tangle
#

But 80 * 1.5 * 3 is 360, or a possible max damage of 300 against Haz 5 Praet

#

Would explain the 235.

versed halo
#

Did put back on 1.0x, but maybe.

austere fossil
#

It's only like 0.1% off, and in the same amount on both of your hits if I fix my math on the second

idle tangle
#

I'll test on something bigger

austere fossil
#

Notbad, I was expecting 245 on your 235
9*3/1.2 = 22.5 x2 to 45 because it's hitting both the praet directly and the blister
80*3/1.2 = 200

#

But that doesn't explain the first 178.3

austere fossil
#

Presumably due to it being created before the target was frozen

versed halo
#

Huh. Weird..

austere fossil
#

Did Area dmg used to get 2x from hitting the target and a blister like the CWC does?

versed halo
#

I am not sure about that. sorry.

radiant edge
#

I'm guessing the shot width changes to the CWC are bugged out huh

austere fossil
radiant edge
#

Not sure what they actually transferred over the base

idle tangle
#

No, the shot width went through

#

The circle is definitely smaller without T1C

radiant edge
#

I mean the stats UI, very funky numbers showing up

dry herald
#

the wiki says beer buffs are applied twice, is that due to the beers being the special ones or is it a bug?

#

was looking at the numbers for the buffs

short cloud
dry herald
#

okay great thank you 😄

gaunt cipher
acoustic scarab
idle tangle
#

We confirmed this somewhere else, but Chem bolt damage type wasn't changed, nor was the explosion damage increased

#

Referring to this: "Significantly increased the explosion damage from an enemy killed while affected by the Chemical Explosion bolt and changed the damage type to Explosive"

silent sierra
gaunt cipher
#

It wasn't, beers still apply twice. Pots of gold is 4x, red rock blasters with healthy get you all the way up to 221 HP, etc

gaunt cipher
worldly salmon
#

i thought it was referring to those

short cloud
idle tangle
silent sierra
# idle tangle <@171346153588260865> (he did the original testing)

Just redid my tests for the Blisters. It looks like they've been changed to be a proper weakpoint with a multiplier of either 1.5x or the multiplier of the weakpoint they are attached to. The damage transferred by the blister does still have the Frozen flag, so the blisters can be utilized to provide the 3x frozen multiplier to weapons that otherwise don't get it. The hitbox is still separate from the main creature, so AoE still provides the biggest yield of damage output with the Blisters.
The damage transferred from the Blisters is always Kinetic, and the Blisters do not share the status effect of the creature. So in the event a weapon is utilizing a mod like Volatile Bullets or utilizing an elemental weakness it can still be better to not shoot the Blister.

#

The 80 damage AoE on Blister popping seems to not have the Frozen flag as far as I can tell through testing with a 1.0 resist factor Praetorian.

idle tangle
silent sierra
#

The Driller synergy of Necrosis was pseudo nerfed by the fixes as well. Now that the multiplier is a proper weakpoint bonus instead of being a straight 1.5x multiplier the blisters no longer give a total of 250% damage to the Colette, Flamethrower, and Cryo Cannon, but the lack of a damage cap helps a lot overall and yields a net buff.

#

I did, and I'm not entirely sure what caused it.

idle tangle
#

rgr, rgr, so a mystery to be solved still.

#

Though, I suspect it probably is being multiplied somehow, even if the flags and files disagree. It's the simplest explanation.

#

@silent sierra just testing T5A (Cooker), from what I can tell so far, it appears the damage buff works now with the self inflicted neurotoxin from T5A, and puddles (which was working already). What I am still establishing is if the corrosive dot works - it's hard to see number wise before the neurotoxin proc kicks in.

#

I think it still doesn't work with the Corrosion Dot, just puddles and Neuro now (including self inflicted).

#

Damage very clearly increases to 9.1 wihout a puddle (from 7) once Neuro kicks in.

silent sierra
#

Do you mean with the Blister? From my own testing the hit to the Praetorian will get the T5.A bonus, but the Blister's damage transfer will not. 7 damage will yield 16.1 total with all bonuses working together rather than 18.2.

idle tangle
#

This is without Blister sorry

silent sierra
#

Oh gotcha.

idle tangle
#

I'll do Blister now.

#

The main point is - as soon as Neuro procs on an enemy, you get the damage bonus now from T5A.

#

I think previously it was only puddles.

silent sierra
#

Looks like Corrosion still doesn't work for triggering the damage bonus, but it's less of a problem now because it works with its own neurotoxin proc now which is helps a lot.

#

Nice!

#

Oh and I had a question about that video of yours. What mods were you running in that?

#

I'm curious if the Blister can trigger Boiler Ray.

idle tangle
#

Which is a reasonable outcome, the damage bonus is only ever going to be felt on bigger targets where you will get the neuro proc likely anyway.

idle tangle
silent sierra
#

I think I just got it to reproduce the effect!

idle tangle
#

But I didn't expect Blisters to transfer the status, since they aren't affected by any of the dots.

silent sierra
#

I think it's Boiler Ray giving the Blister pops a 50% chance to deal 100 damage in an AoE

idle tangle
silent sierra
#

That is quite the synergy if it's easy to reproduce.

#

Wait... what about Target's Explode?

#

Okay yeah. Boiler Ray is giving a huge amount of bonus damage!

idle tangle
#

Delete your messages and lets keep this one to ourselves.

#

/s

#

I'll test flamethrower now

#

102 damage explosions with Flamer it seems (i'll test more)

#

Yup it works with Targets explode too

silent sierra
#

Remember to account for the 80 poison damage AoE. Targets Explode deals 55 damage if I remember correctly.

idle tangle
#

I just got 182 damage

silent sierra
#

Nice.

idle tangle
#

Worth testing Shatter? Or would that just pop Blisters early I guess.

#

Hmm nm, Blister probably can't be frozen anyway.

floral drift
#

has anyone re-tested Wave Cooker T3.B numbers?

#

one of my steam friends is messaging me claiming that at 10 RoF it does less than Guard cooling Rate (when Burning)

#

and that he didn't see a difference between primary/secondary targets

#

i don't have the data to refute the claim, so i turn to here to see if someone else does

idle tangle
#

As in it didn't perpetually keep the Guard on fire? I can test

#

Also, yes Fragile/Shatter apparently does work on Blisters

#

but someone else may want to test as well

#

It's a anti-synergy though - the blisters pop almost instantly o_o

#

@floral drift the Guard dies well before he loses the on fire status effect.

floral drift
idle tangle
#

Hmmmmm. I think when GSG said they took lens size from the base, I think they might have meant the T4 mod lens (both, or maybe only T4B)

#

T4B feels smaller without T1C when active

#

but bigger with it then it used to be

#

and I think wide lens is similar (but maybe not)

idle tangle
#

as in, it never lost it.

floral drift
#

ok, so the person's claims were wrong. i suspected. thanks, Notbad

idle tangle
#

Can someone pull the info on T4B for the Cooker if they get a chance?

silent sierra
silent sierra
idle tangle
idle tangle
silent sierra
#

Oh woops. I misread that as T5.B. My bad.

#

I believe the lens was +2.5 fire rate, 0.1x shot width, and +0.4 Weapon Heat per second

#

I happened to be editing the wiki page during all this so I just have that data in front of me right now.

idle tangle
#

Yar, sorry Evan, I'm not being clear. That's what the lens was - but I think it's possible GSG changed it with the new patch.

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Because I think it is smaller then it used to be, and I am referring to the change in the patch notes made here: "Moved some shot width from the base weapon to the T1 Concave Lens upgrade"

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It doesn't look like it came from the base, so I think it may have come from T4B

silent sierra
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Looking at the stats in the file it looks like it's the same as before. -0.9 Radius multiplier (ie. 0.1x radius), 0.4 Heat modifier, and 2.5 Rate of Fire Modifier.

idle tangle
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Alrighty then. Ty. Then I am just seeing smaller reticules because of the red herring patch notes again.

silent sierra
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They did move some of the radius out of the base gun though, so it should be smaller without the upgrade to radius.

idle tangle
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But they didn't. Base was listed as 80, and it is still 80

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that or the in game description is wrong.

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I also compared a video pre patch and a video post patch and the base AOE doesn't look like it changed in my vid.

silent sierra
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Base Shot Width is 60 in the files now.

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Down from 80

idle tangle
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FML

silent sierra
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They forgot to update the weapon description I think

idle tangle
#

yes

silent sierra
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Oh dang, the base Coil Gun's trail damage is extremely strong now. It went from 2.5 damage per 0.2-0.25 seconds to 3.5 per 0.2-0.25 seconds. Electric Trail went from 3 damage every 0.25 seconds to 2 damage every 0.25 seconds. The patch notes straight lied about moving damage from Electric Trail to the base gun because there was an overall net gain along with the base trail dealing Fire damage which has better elemental weakness distribution.

idle tangle
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Electric Trail went from 3 damage to what? The suspense Evan, the suspense!

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wait nm

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I can't read.

silent sierra
#

I instantly believed I messed up. I make so many typos at work that my coworkers occasionally make fun of me for it.

idle tangle
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But from your numbers, it's only because fire resistance is lower, that it is better?

silent sierra
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No, it's better because the base trail has a faster tick rate than Electric Trail, so moving 1 point of damage from one to another yields a bigger change.

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The base trail being bumped by 1 damage had a net gain in DPS when both mods are taken.

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Pre-patch the two combined to 23.11 dps, and now they do 23.56 dps. It's not a lot, but it affects breakpoints by more than you might expect.

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Also running the radius mod on Tier 5 is much more competitive.

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15.56 dps instead of 11.11.

idle tangle
#

Right, because fire tick rate averages at 0.225 vs 0.25 ya?

gaunt cipher
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Based on the patch notes the dps increase with electric trail is probably not intentional, but I imagine it's small enough that they'll leave it as is.

silent sierra
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I doubt they were unaware. Whenever I run the numbers in this game I can generally see what the devs were going for, and they're shockingly clever with the math of everything.

gaunt cipher
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Well, the patch notes say that they moved DoT from elec to base, but it didn't just get moved, it also increased.
They may have just decided that that was a minor enough thing to not mention in patch notes though.

silent sierra
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I would think so. Documenting things effectively generally just means getting the point across with as few words as possible rather than being strictly accurate. I think the gist they wanted us to see was "base buffed, electric nerfed, and both together still good."

gaunt cipher
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that said I really would like to know the reason behind the drak ammo nerf, it's very strange to me that drak got hit(again) and m1k is untouched. maybe because it was felt that drak vs gk2 are more direct competitors?

silent sierra
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It actually could have just been an indirect buff to Rewiring Mod. Less base ammo makes the ammo regen a lot more enticing, especially when the weapon has so many ways of increasing the yield of its ammo pool via DoTs, AoE, Ricochets, etc.

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Let's be honest, the gun has way more ammo than it actually needs to get a mission done.

gaunt cipher
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I suppose, but I feel like rewiring is in a position where it's not picked much just because it doesn't have an effect that is particularly flashy/fun. it gives such an extreme amount of ammo, especially after the buff, that I feel like if players still aren't using it you'd need to make drak have pretty severe ammo issues to actually convince them to hop over to rewiring.

silent sierra
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Let's also not forget the bump in ammo for Shield Battery Booster. Either way, I think the change was entirely Drak centric and not motivated by the other primaries.

glacial topaz
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or that ammo return could just be a penalty so you can have another positive effect ?

silent sierra
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@floral drift I can run tests with the Cooker tomorrow to figure out the new numbers for T3.B. I'm going to be traveling for two weeks starting Sunday, so if you have anything else you need checked I can look into it tomorrow and Saturday before I'm gone.

idle tangle
idle tangle
#

Necro Thermal Catalyst is kinda good now.

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*provided you can light bugs on fire without killing them first

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but here is the new performance vs a pack of 60 Guards

gaunt cipher
#

what's the new damage value?

idle tangle
#

No idea, but it slaps now, here it is with Jet Fuel Fire Hurricane against some Slashers.

silent sierra
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4 meter radius, 3 meter max damage radius.

floral drift
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oh dang, almost doubled

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wait, overdoubled right

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60 80 -> 140

silent sierra
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I thought it was 80 before.

floral drift
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i'll believe that

glacial topaz
#

that would be Fire + Heat then , wiki name wise
well, unless they made it Burn and Heat , instead of Fire variable wise

silent sierra
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It's DMG_Fire with 50% converted to Explosive, so the wiki would show Fire+Heat

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I already added it to the wiki btw.

glacial topaz
rancid blade
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does direct heat get bonuses from hitting a weakpoint?

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i remember meatshield said no for the hurricane, but what about in general? (white phos boomstick, hot bullets mg, plasma burn epc, inferno bc)

gaunt cipher
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As far as I know, no. For instance phos boomstick will ignite oppressors just the same from the front, it doesn't even care if the shots are getting blocked by heavy armor.

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question of my own: do we know what the new base charge time for coil gun is?

rancid blade
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charge speed got changed from 1.25 > 1.2

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so 0.8s > 0.833s

gaunt cipher
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hm, it was +140% charge speed before, wasn't it?

rancid blade
#

wait so a 12 dmg white phos pellet hitting a 2x weakpoint will do 24 kinetic, 12 fire, but still 6 heat

gaunt cipher
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the mod I mean

gaunt cipher
rancid blade
gaunt cipher
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oh, I misread-the 12 dmg white phos pellet hitting 2x weakpoint will, as far as I know, do 12 kinetic, 12 fire damage, both multiplied the same

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but still 6 heat

rancid blade
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wait why doesn't kinetic get doubled

gaunt cipher
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it does

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12 dmg white phos pellet does 6 kinetic, 6 fire damage

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and also 6 heat

rancid blade
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i thought white phos didn't reduce dmg

gaunt cipher
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it doesn't reduce damage. fire damage is still direct damage

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just of a different type that some enemies resist and others are weak to

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(also fire damage is technically called "burn" internally but most players just call it fire)

rancid blade
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ok i've been misreading the wiki the whole time

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"The weapon does not lose 50% damage." for white phos

gaunt cipher
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it loses 50% kinetic damage, but it gains 50% fire damage in exchange, which usually works exactly the same

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and then it also gains heat infliction, which is what causes the status effect

rancid blade
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the game also shows +50% dmg as fire which confused me

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"convert" 😔 😔

gaunt cipher
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the game is ambiguous about the difference between the two, but: fire=/=heat
fire=a damage type, heat=builds up a status effect that causes fire damage over time

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some weapons can inflict heat without doing fire damage directly, and others can do fire damage without inflicting heat

rancid blade
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yea don't worry i've read into this already

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epc tcf 240 fire dmg wrecking macteras 😩, incendiary grenade instant 100 heat but no fire dmg 😮

gaunt cipher
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having both PGL which converts 50% to just heat and boomstick which converts 50% to both heat and fire is probably what leads to this confusion most of the time tbh

rancid blade
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yea all these dmg types and resists that the game doesn't show in the weapon stats

gaunt cipher
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fwiw my personal build take is always take white phos, unless it's elimination bc dreads resist fire damage