#Mouth rigging issue with rigger

135 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

sterile citrus
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Vbridger would not work with how that is currently rigged

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I'm not sure what method your rigger is following, but trying to add vbridger parameters to this mouth shape will be really annoying to do

Screenshot_20250211_125744_Discord.jpg
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What you requested isn't unreasonable as the things you suggested are within the capabilities of vbridger

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Based on the videos you've sent

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Your rigger might be more used to form/open version rather than vbridger specific version (which requires a very basic version of form/open combination because the rest of the vbridger parameters covers the rest of the movement, but it's all layered on top of each other so everything affects everything else)

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You should suggest for your rigger to follow a vbridger specific tutorial or otherwise they will be spending too much time fixing things that would be hard to fix

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This uses mouthX which is not specific to Vbridger, but the rest might not be a vbridger specific model

sterile citrus
sage tinsel
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okay so the problem with charts like that

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is they originate from before vbridger really, and adding vbridger on top of complex mouth form/open requires a lot more work

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yeah i'd say, it'd be best for him to do a 2x3 of some kind, then vbridger on top to get the sort of mouth forms you want

near escarp
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did he said anything more than "done" with the two pictures?

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as also done could mean he fixed it in some way [like calibration or something]

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ok i read that you are the client, so you are on the "usage" side of this, i would ask,how much did you calibrated the model

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i am reading all the chat,
I see that you saw a wip of the rigger and you thought it had vbridger so you requested that for the model
now you got a diferente result of what youw anted and there is a little misscomunication with the rigger about why you are not fully satified with it [because is not what you saw before and you thought you would get the same] is that correct?

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[i just want to make sure i understand the situation before i give any recomendation]]

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oh i understand dont worry about that, what i mean by misscomunication falls more into, is not about bad or good, just "is diferent from what you visualized"

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is like getting a haircut, even if its good, if its not how you imagined it, it gives a feel if make sense

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i would say... is common to have this kind of questions, what i found a little not common is that is happening when the rig is considered "finished" in a way, because there are a lot of things that were not asked before that should be done

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now, that is not a bad thing

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but i see why it may feel frustrated to do it at this point for any of the parties involved

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my recomendation would be this

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ok first let me ask something if thats fine

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how much research you did about what vbridger works

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[[i ask this in case if needed i can give a explanation that may help with the current situation for both you and the rigger ]]

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oh, what i mean by finished is more on the "he gave the files to you"
in my personal case as rigger i usually send a lot [maybe too many] videos of each thing i do to clients, and then when is considered "finished" i send them the files for a stage i call "test and adjust" this is because even if the rig is fully ready, each persona personality may be diferent and they may request changes based on that, there are people that once they have it they feel it moves too much or too little, or want more here, or less there.

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ok, for vbridger did you asked to him anything about how he does it or how it works?
this is important, on a side sometimes we have an idea of how the parameters works, as you said before "how do we know if a model has or not vbridger parameters"
this is a tricky question, by experience i may know when a model has it because vbridger parameter are muscular movements, in my personal opinion they dont give more expressionism, it just make the tracking a little more realistic in a way, and this is hard on the side that the rigger can not calibrate this, as you have to do it as you are the one piloting the model, because his facial movement may not be the same as yours, if there is no good calibration, a lot of things will look off

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now, on the first video you sent, at first view i would say it does not have vbridgerparameters, at least in that video is not showed
adding vbridger parameters may be a double side card sometimes,
there are riggers that make gorgeous work without them, and adding vbridger make models less unique

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in my persona opinion, mouth shapes like the ":3" kind of mouth, lose expressionism with vbridger if its done to the point
and, to do vbridger in a full unique way only because the mouth is :3 may not be the tea of all riggers, as clients that ask for vbridger usually want the "common vbridger" if make sense

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if you need, and if it helps to you to communicate with him the why of things you dont like, i could go with you each parameter on how they work, and a kind of "this parameter works like this, and may make your mouth look like that" that way you could think "oh maybe this is where i need it to change,or this is where i didnt knew how to tell him it was not at my taste

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also an important question is
how much you calibrated already the model, in vts and vbridger itself [for this i believe you need vbridger dlc, im not 100% sure]]

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[[btw sorry the bible xD i didnt knew how to explain it better]]

quick girder
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No no dont worry, I'm willing to learn and understand this so if there are things that can be resolved by having a common ground we can attempt those

near escarp
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this two shapes, are both normal tracking, or is any of them to be a "toggle" shape?

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ook

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i assume the right one is like the open mouth when is "negative" on the smile

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as you are the artist i would take the oportunity to ask
if you could doodle an open and a close version of your ideal mouth in this stages
"sad/neutral/happy" how would they be?
we use "sad" as away to refer to the negative value of smile. but been honest, that is not the most correct description

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on tracking, the mouth Form or mouth Smile is kind of tracked by how the end of the lips is positioned compared to the middle of the mouth
so if they go up, you smile, if they go down, it makes the negative values
:). :l. :(.

image.png
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one of the reasons why i asked before if it was a toggle shape the mouth that was like angry looking, was because, tracking is basicaly for your normal talk, some shapes may look not ideal when we are normally talking and you may prefer them to be only when an expression toggle is ON
an example when i have a cry toggle, i make the mouth to became wavy
or if its like a love or shines toggle, i may make the mouth more round, big and exagerated
in my normal talk those scenarios may not look the best for me

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ok this is good, how would you sketch the "ideal" version of this 3 in open

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i like the direction you are pointing on this shapes already, as it goes with what you want of the :3 feel

sage tinsel
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is your rigger in this server? honestly we could prolly help out more if he is in the server by communicating directly

near escarp
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ohhh ok, your ideal shapes are really cute

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now i will explain a little of vbridger and we can see together if they will benefit or not your ideal rig

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no need to be nervous, in a way is good to ask, check and stuff, sometimes a second opinion help us see things we dont, i for example sometimes ask other riggers or artist about my work to get some views i may not considered before

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vbridger by common uses [[let me go check i always forgets the names]]
Mouth Funnel
Mouth Press Lip
Mouth Pucker
Mouth Shrug
Jaw Open
those 5 are the most common in vbridger, and they refer to muscular movement we normaly do when talking

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is not unrealistig or anything, dunno worry about that, it never hurt to ask or request stuff

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most vbridger movements are done when the mouth is close [as when its full open, most of them are turned OFF]

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an example here, Funnel, makes the lips separate in the middle, and squish on the sides to the center

image.png
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lip press is tricky if your model does not have "lipstick " as this basicaly is like, bitting your lips or to try to tick them, so in a little is similar to funnel on one of the sides

image.png
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pucker makes the wide of the mouth squish or stretch

image.png
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shrug make the mouth move up on the middle
jaw open is how we move our jaw down, so it stretch down the mouth

image.png
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technicaly you can adapt all this movements to the ":3" you want
in my personal opinion, funnel, and lip press are not the most beneficial for that specific shape of mouth as they may create weird results or to basicaly change the ":3" completly

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is based on neutral closed, but the movement itself apply the same to all, so for example the funnel on your negative values may look not the best, or the lip press may push the :< in a wavy instead [[that is why i also kind of pointed what was each thing moving in direction]

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been honest here, even when the 5 parameters are the commonly minimum for vbridger, i dont feel all models need them

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yeah, they are done on neutral but affect all of them in kind of the same magnitude [unless rigger start rig calibrating the % of how much it affect each, and that gets tricky because its onle the % but not like a diferent shape]

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here is when if you know how each works you can say, "hey, for the sad mouth make X parameter off" as if they used normal param they will fix it by something called permutation, and if they used blendshape, they wil lower the % of the blendshape
this may give both a more in sync approach of where things and how things should be tuned

quick girder
near escarp
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you can ask your rigger to start with the 6 shapes you did on the left as "this is what i would like as the base of the mouth tracking"
and then, from there once both are happy wit it
you can start going with the vbridger, and request him to show you, how each parameter affects the tracking shapes
that way you can see if a particular combination is not of your like

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jaw open is like a stretch, you can do it in real life, it basicaly stretch the skin of your lower face down

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when you calibrate vbridger you have to do each modement one by one, to calibrate, so you can also feel how that feels in real life, that also help you to see what movements are not as easy to do in real life

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for example
to me personaly
smiling and trying to do funnel, feels kind of... weird??? xD i feel like i am becoming a duck and my body is resisting

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oh, give me asec

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let me sketch, because your sad shape is less wide than the other, so it may be affected diferent

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if they did jaw open on top of everything, even when in neutral they affect the center more than the sides, because your sad mouth is less wide, it will then be affected "all of it" to stretch down, it may be like this
that is why i suggest the wip of how each param affect the tracking

image.png
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for me this kind of stuff make sense because i am very used to look at it everyday
but, i always like to think, artist and riggers speak diferent language, our minds see things in a very diferent way, so dont worry if you or both need visual checks of even things that my look "normal"

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anything we can help, this server is always open to give a hand ;D

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i understand the feeling, when i studied them i used the apple manual, and they were kind of diferent of what i inicialy thought

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sure, tell me

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ahhh ok that make sense

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anatomicaly speaking

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we know the top of your mouth dont really move when we talk

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out teeths dont move neither

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that is anatomicaly correct

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now

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in cartoons anime and stuff, they dont follow whats anatomicaly is correct sometimes

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some riggers does things in a "anatomicaly" way
others do it in a more "artistic" way

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your rigger may be on that group of riggers

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now you tell him that maybe you woudnt like the top too move that high, maybe less, or maybe to not, here is when the person by person taste play a role

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would you like me to look for a model with each option so you can see how both difers?

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that is something you can tell him, things like "i would like the mouth to not be higher than in this screenshot, as i want the nose and lips to not be too close"

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those are really good and clear planning in my opinion

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best of the luck, and hope all goes smoother, if you have any question, you can always came back ;D

near escarp
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im glad to read things went well

about been more natural, that can be tricky, as thinking about how we talk, tbh rarely you will hit the stremes of those unless you actively do it, like screaming or getting scared
so its a thing of, if it really need more
you can also maybe make it a little smaller or not, its a play of test and feel

near escarp
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how does that look with tongue inside?

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ok, can you take me a side by side picture
with
tongue inside <-> tongue outside

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let me ask one thing
when you make the tonghe move out
how does it happends?
does it hace any movement?
does it just pop up out instantly

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something that may be suggested is to do this
Because hwen we move our tongue out, the tongue have to adapt to our teeth and lips, that means it should curve a little higer when it goes out
it can not be on the same height unless the jaw moves lower to give space
also because we are stretching out tongue, as a muscle, it will get less wide unless we make also our mouth wider

image.png
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right now in my view it looks like they didnt wanted to move the "inside" area of the tongue, so they had to unfold the tongue fron that position
and that gave you a result that it does not look natural

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yeh

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if you try to do it in real life
without moving your jaw down
you can feel the tongue curving up over your teeths

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also when the motuh is on negative
the tongue should squish a little

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that also happends irl

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i would have to ask
fif all this check-feedback was done all at once, or like, once, then fix, then other,then fix, then another ?

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you used Clip studio paint for the art?

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ok, the reason why the blendmodes on the art looks diferent is because in clip studio is not "add" the one used in live2D

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idealy i feel that, if you made all in one document, it shoudnt be a problem [[i understand some people, artist, riggers,anyone on any field would be pissed if they get like, one change per update only as that feel like going in an out too many times]]
but as you made a doc with everything one by one, it shoudnt be an issue
what you can and as client should have the right to is to ask something like
"hey, before you send me the files, can we just get a video wip of all the adjustments requested on the revision, so we make sure we made them all and you dont have to re-save too many times"

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yeah, you could avoid that if you get videos first, so both dont have to do the full cycle of export > import > track >test >found stuff etc
because we all can forget things or by fixing one we may brokeother, so that is why is good to check them before exporting sometimes one by one

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well... one way is
fix in csp an send the psd to the rigger
in live2D we can import the psd and as much as you dont change the layer or fuse it to other, live2D will refresh all layers automaticaly

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well the issue is this
if he change the psd blending mode, that will make the psd looks like the live2D
not the live2D to looks like the psd
because you have to fix the "normal color" of the layer so when using add glow, it looks as you wanted

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the fact is

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he only has multiply, normal and add in live2D

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so as you used Add in clip studio [instead of Add glow]
the result in live2D is diferent

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yes, that is why i made the guide i showed to you
because each art software makes add diferent
so there i listed the one that give you the same result as live2D

sage tinsel
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P sure literally any blend mode for add can't even import into live2d

near escarp
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ye, multiply looks to be the same on all

sage tinsel
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Kibu can correct me if wrong

near escarp
sage tinsel
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yeah

near escarp
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is like clipping
when you clip on art software
then go to live2D

instantly unclipped

sage tinsel
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the clipping dying

near escarp
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tbh, some riggers request artist to write on the name the number of the opacity

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just to cover any possible happening

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yes, you may have to change the color so it looks as you want it to looks

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Is there any other part of the fixing that is giving issues? out of the blend layers and the tongue?

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that could be the case yes, is something of testing
in a way if the rigger have the same tracking, he can show you how it looks in track so you more less know how it should look on use

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i dont know how all riggers works
I can only talk for myself, and because my rig is made to looks 1:1 to vts, i usually only send videos of live2D
because the calibration for me may look diferent for the client, also piloting is important
but for example i ask if they know about calibration if they would want a video of how to do it [if so, i make the video using their model for nda]

near escarp
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what you mean by clipped correctly?

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it does looks like there is a shine on the bottom, like a little circle, overlaping really strongly

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wait in the csp it shows you have 6 layers and 1 folder clipped to eye white

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ok, and the other 6 layers are clipped o the eye white, can you post the ones you say are clipped to "eyeshine"

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did you fixed both add layers?

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the picture you got on the current, is a video he sent you of live2D?

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i am noticing that on the picture you sent of cps some layers looks more muted down

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mmm thatlast picture...
is the shadow of the eye on top of the hair???

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maybe it need to be opacity down on live2D to get a similar result, as in live2D it looks more vivid on the pictures you showed

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i know that you can change colors in vts
about change textures.... i guess you can edit the texture atlas but i had never done it so im not sure if there is any risk

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?? what you mean by behaving weird in live2D?

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ok, one thing i would point
clipping in live2D works as mask layer

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the only escenario i could think of psd looking diferent than live2D is that the exporting settings code is not the correct one [it had happened a couple times for some artist to not have the correct one in the software settings]

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can you check this information in your clip studio