Maximum Parameters per Deformer Questions

[twilit breach]

I see there are some mentions of not going over 3 parameters per deformer. I'm curious:

1. What are the consequences of using a 4th parameter?
2. If I was going to add another deformer to the hierarchy, instead of going to 3+ parameters, is there a clean way to do that without causing a break in any kind of existing animations/keyframes?
3. Is there a way to copy all of the parameters for a single deformer over to a new deformer in the event that I need to re-parent and use more deformers? Would copying a deformer with 4 parameters that have keyframes and deleting the three that I'd keep on the parent work effectively?

(Thanks in advance for any help <3)

[fluid latch]

keyforms mulitply on each other
if you make XY with 3 keyforms, you realize if you link them, there's 9 keyforms
and you normally only rig 5 keyforms and snythesize the rest

if you have 4 parameters, you'd have 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = 81 keyforms
you can only synthesize 2 parameters, so you'd need to rig around 70 keyforms manually

[tacit dune]

As a minor correction, you can do 3 parameter synthesis

Process is as follows for hypothetical parameter x y and z with range of -1 to 1

synth corners for XY
synth corners for YZ
synth corners for XZ
set Z to -1 and perform another XY synth, this will generate the XY corners for Z=-1
set Z to 1 and perform another XY synth, this will generate the XY corners for Z=1

A similar, but far longer process works for 4 parameter synth.

Either way the cleanup can be complicated

[olive isle]

if you think about this, you would never finish synthesising because the moment you do the second step, the first one is not longer accurate, and to repeat will also made inacurated the second step and you will be on a loop that honestly if you are going that way is better to do manual permutations one by one, its gonna be easier and accurated even if it takes time if you really want to force the +3 parameters
so at the end, you can not synthesis +3 parameters

[tacit dune]

this method works fine and is the main way of pregenerating corners for mouth lip press open for non-blendshape vbridger rigging, unless you want to tell me theartgun is wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFUG4L4Lgfo&t=911s

[olive isle]

Artgun uses other ways to cut work as to add extra to parameters that normaly dont have that space. and this is a method based on a time where blendshapes were not an option so a lot of things had to be done on a way or another to be able to reach to the objectve.
this doesnt mean they are perfect and 100% accurated.
the only scenario where you can 100% acurately synthesize +3 parameters would be if they can be selectead at the same time, if not, there will always be values that overwrite over courners that later on get used as based for next courners calculations.

This is not a who is wrong and who is right

if you read artgun document about vbridger you will found too that some editions to parameters were later on deleted because they work only as temporaly helps

[tacit dune]

my mentioned order doesnt create any corner overwrites, though cleanup is of course needed, this is still faster than maually doing all the keys from scratch

black dots are the manual generatons
red are XY synth
green are YZ synth
pink is XZ synth
cyan is z-1 XY synth
blue is z+1 XY synth

to say its not always a good idea is fine, but to say it doesnt work is just wrong

[olive isle]

you see that red, green and pink, are courners that later on are used as base to do light blue and dark blue that also are common courners of multiple diferent synth combinations

for example
if you synth the top of that cube, and then a side, you will overwrite the common courners

[tacit dune]

you dont synth every side of the cube just the front face (4 corners) and the back face (4 corners)

at this point youve sythesized all the corners, synthesizing more faces (by doing say x-1 zy synth) is totally unneeded

[twilit breach]

I think I get what you're saying, but does adding additional parent deformers and off-setting parameters beyond 3 to that deformer solve for this multiplication issue?

I think part of the complexity of evaluating this (for me) is that I'm working with a model that has a muzzle, and parallaxing parts that sometimes do or do not need to be included in another animation sometimes gets them into the 4 paramater or more category.

I am losing many of the typical mouth motions you'd have on a human model because of the shape of the jaw/mouth, but gaining complexity in different spots. Definitely been a journey so far comparing it to how standard models are rigged/animated.

[tacit dune]

try to figure out a way to stack deformers if possible over using 4 or more params on a single deformer. I was just interjecting because end. didn't seem aware of 3d corner synth since he said you cant do more than 2. I use 3 often and am experienced with 3 param corner synth

dont forget you can assign objects to subdeformers, and use that to control opacity, muzzles are hard and there arent many guides out there for them

[twilit breach]

I went through last night and just made a deformer for each part that was the same exact size and moved all the children underneath them for any respective part just to see if it would break any of my animations, which it didn't/hasn't so far.

but yeah its mostly the traditional model archetypes that have well documented processes

[olive isle]

sometimes working same parameters on diferent parents can help in cases like this
more if you are dong some kind of parallaxng effect, if it helps you can start doing the main movement, then later on build the diferences between each one
for example i did something similar for a doll eye movemet
where i want the inside of the iris to move on a little less than the main, to give that effect of cristal eye ball.
so for this i did the main movement first
then on a child, on the same parameter, i fixed the reposition inside of it

something that helps a lot to work with deformers is organize them in a way the child never get outside of the parent

[twilit breach]

Yeah, this is the first time I've delved into rigging/animating in Live2D.

I want to finish this model, but will likely opt to making a 3d Model once this is adequately finished.

[olive isle]

if you want to try, you can always start posting here like the prosses and we can help you throw it

[twilit breach]

Some of the stuff I've tackled along the way has been self-imposed difficulty from trying to accomplish certain things, not to say 3d doesn't also have its huge learning curves, but there are some things I'd rather have assumed and trimmed from that work flow.

Sure, side question

is there a way to make a new folder in the Part hierarchy?

[olive isle]

yes

at the bottom of the part window there is a folder icon

next to a trash can

[twilit breach]

that new part button?

[olive isle]

yes

on live2d part = folder

[twilit breach]

How do I... remove any interaction it would have with Draw Order?

[olive isle]

just dont change the draw order

and you are fine

[tacit dune]

500 is default, drag the folder where you want it

[twilit breach]

I just want a different folder to store that set of extra deformers so they are easier to select

[olive isle]

deformers ignores draw order, so you can just select all deformers, then click the new parth, name it as you want and click ok

[twilit breach]

Cool, thank you, that was making me crazy. Should make it easier to select a bunch of the deformers I need in groups that have to have specific parent/child orders in the deformer hierarchy.

[olive isle]

yeah, at the end you can put deformers anywhere [[just dont use that guide folder, that can mess up your export]]

i would actually recomend deleted it just to make sure you dont put anything inside that is important

when folders have that icon that mean they are tag as guide and those dont export by default

[twilit breach]

I think its empty, but I probably left it there to sort out new assets I need to reimport

part of this learning process has been how much do I need to separate certain things.

I needed to separate this hood into two layers to get it to deform correctly on head turns.

[tacit dune]

depending on how extreme you want your head turns, id also consider separating the front part of the hood left and right

[twilit breach]

I didn't opt for super extreme head turning on this model.

[olive isle]

are you going like for a... 30° turn?

[twilit breach]

As an example though like, This parallaxing part is mostly not relevant during anything other than head movements, but I do actually need it for mouth opening

[olive isle]

ahhh ok

assuming you have the parts of the face like nose, mouth all those parts separated, you can have the hood front on one side
as its minimum the overlaping of the nose to the hood when its turned

[twilit breach]

that would be an example of a part that needs 3 parameters for head motion, but gets included in a mouth parameter so it hits that warning about 3+ parameters.

[olive isle]

i would suggest to separate the pieces in like
nose boop
nose muscle
top mouth lips
top front teeth
top molars
tongue
bottom front teeth
bottom molars
bottom lips

[tacit dune]

as a genera question, have you already referenced mika's guide on muzzles https://twitter.com/MikazukiBlue/status/1479617378493382661

Mika 🫧 @ riggermortis | Comms. closed for awhile! (@MikazukiBlue)

Here's how I break down muzzles/snouts for #Live2D!

General principle is to split certain parts into "base" and "line" parst so you can control the line weight depending on the angle. (Examples below)

I used DeepL to help supplement translation, apologies for any awkward bits!

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Twitter · Jan 8, 2022, 12:54 AM

[olive isle]

with this if you manualy do the angle x-y, you can get the 3D effect you want in a very easy way

[twilit breach]

I have not seen that. I sort of started with the flat design and then pulled it apart based on what I remember from making some psds for live2d as commissions like a decade ago.

https://imgur.com/a/PeCJah9

it wasn't a huge range of motion.

[olive isle]

i feel

[twilit breach]

Though I was trying to maintain scope a bit for a first project.

[tacit dune]

he has his deformer stacks shown in some of the recordings below, if nothing else you may glean some ideas for improvements to you deformer hierarchy

[olive isle]

that the nose boop should almost reach the light part of the nose when it gets up

as it feels like its not moving that much compared to the rest of the rotation of the head

[twilit breach]

Yeah, I could make the nose flatten out a lot more on the up head tilt.

I'm not sure why I didn't but I haven't touched this model for like 8-9 months.

[olive isle]

you are doing a good job by deforming the parts to give the idea of the anatomy of it, just a little careful with some parts chaing size when going up-down or others tilting instead of rotating when going side to side, and it can look amazing

sometimes when you work a lot on something you need like a break and then you see thing you didnt before

[twilit breach]

I've been a bit negligent of the nose

[olive isle]

hahaha, maybe because its a really big contrast of colors, i feel is the most noticeable but also means that if that get fixed, everything together is gonna looks better with it even if you dont touch them

like a focus point of view

[twilit breach]

Yeah, its been a whole thing. I took a break cause I wanted to see what I could get done in the free trial month, and then just got busy with other stuff.

I have a habit of not finishing stuff so I want to try and get this somewhere where I'm happy.

Lots of stuff to tackle between the literal anatomy differences, my just.. art style difference from more popular/standard models, and secondary stuff like the hood.

[olive isle]

sometimes a diferent artstyle is 10 times more interesting than the popular ones and if its made good, as is diferent it really highlight from others

[twilit breach]

do you mean shifting the nose up like this ?

https://imgur.com/a/zvXg5MB

[olive isle]

do you see how when you go to the courner, the nose almost reach out of the light area?
i feel that should be the case on the just-up

i feel because this is more noticeable, some guidelines can help to get you on not lose shape

for example the grey part of the cheeks close to the neck, it get lost when you rotate, and it lose a little of the shape of the anatoma making it a little distracted from the eye

[twilit breach]

Sorry I am not sure I understand 100%. You mean that the nose overlapping the region shadowed by the hood is the part you notice?

I built the fur extending off the face in three layers so I could shift them left/right as the head turned.

[olive isle]

i mean here, when its reaching the light area

and about the furr

whats happening is that instead of rotating, its looking like if its shrinking inside of it, so it lose the feel of 3d rotation movement

[twilit breach]

hmm I squish the side of the nose that's receding as it turns to either side, maybe I'm not squishing it enough?

[olive isle]

this are the parts that the furr is going squishing inside instead of rotating

are you doing this

directly on the mesh

or on a deformer?

[twilit breach]

uhhh I think most of the shifting I've done has been to squish the deformer and not the mesh itself.

[olive isle]

uhmm i feel that the issue here is that you are only squishing the deformer but not giving it a 3d squich effect

when you turn or rotate, they are parts of the object that should pop more and others that should squish in, but not shring

i am doing a little example on csp so is not perfect but the idea is like this, the deformer is only giving the idea of rotating and the top part goes even far than the bottom that is spposed to be conected to the lips skin

[twilit breach]

ah yeah, I could shift the center out a bit more that makes sense.

[twilit breach]

maybe more like this? https://imgur.com/a/93VKuDr

[olive isle]

i feel its looking more 3D
i feel the x:0 y:+30 should even go higher
this is just to break the "square" feel of the movement and making it look a little more round and its a little more pleasan to the eye

[twilit breach]

Like this high? :o https://imgur.com/a/YRwATU1

[olive isle]

ohh yeah, it have a more clear movement of the main point of the face.
how do you feel it? i think if you use it as a reference for all muscles movements, its gonna look really good

[twilit breach]

I think there might be something about it that feels intuitively off to me but I haven't determined exactly what that is just yet, it might be that I need to raise the mouth upwards to accommodate for that shift

[olive isle]

yeah the mouth still need to follow more the nouse movement thats right