alpha-two-archetype-chat

[lofty dew]

What?

[versed kiln]

Who?

Why?

[lofty dew]

😂

[neon sand]

When?

[blazing latch]

Anyone mess with stance swap fighter? I was messing with it while leveling and getting about 1 lvl per 60 min or 90 min. Jw if anyone else has tried it out

[lofty dew]

You couldn't pay me 200gold to use AOE lullaby or serenade over the ST versions in any content

And epic melody is one of the best moves in the game for war/group pvp/general travel

Lament aoe is fine if the only thing you're doing is group farm

[lofty dew]

You can cancel weapon swap animation if you do it while stance swapping
Kinda neat

[blazing latch]

I've been pulling a group of mobs. Feroicity cleave, 3 autos, swap to celerity, puncture, cata,main, three autos, swap reapply and repeat as needed

[lofty dew]

I think stance swap and blood fusion feel nice yeah

[blazing latch]

i just likek how you can punture last tick of bleed, this buys your time for your 3 auto reset stance swap, cleave apply stagger, 3 auto cata, maim, swap reapply. You literally never have to swap

never have to stop *

[lofty dew]

Right it also helps you learn the class

[quiet hinge]

Does anybody knows why finishers dont triggers with the spellbook?

[agile saddle]

It does, the finishers are just a bigger hit
One of them throws out 2 projectiles at once

[quiet hinge]

So they are not the same as the wand?
If not i couldnt notice them

[shut niche]

were you not seeing finisher effects get applied? like burning/chilled/volatile?

[agile saddle]

They are not

Mouse over your weapon down bottom left to see your attack chain
The icon is below sprint and dodge

[quiet hinge]

I dont get it. With the wand it triggers efforlesly and its clearly visible ( like a big ray). And with the book i see nothing

[shut niche]

two projectiles come out AND the book swirls around your character, no?

maybe that's the extended finisher? 🤔

[agile saddle]

It’s not as visible, but it does have its own animation
It does a big hit on the deadly finisher, then the double hit on deadly extended finisher

The standard finisher is just the 3rd hit

[quiet hinge]

I never saw anything like that :/

[quiet hinge]

Maybe i was expecting an animation just like the wand

[summer solstice]

How does Tank class feel so far in small scale (4-15 players) pvp?

useful/desired?

[lofty dew]

I tested book deadly extended finishers for like 40 mins, staring at my buffs, never proc'd once.

Checked logs, never proc'd once

Tested it again for about 20 mins. Staring at buffs, 0 procs

[quiet hinge]

How do u test it? Is there a specific way to trigger it?

[echo cape]

Tanks incredible but I’m biased

Grapples strong in pvp tho

[lofty dew]

i just stared at my buffs and looked for perfect timing proc
works on wand, never saw it once on book. I didnt test it this weekend though

[mint galleon]

Wands annoying because its finisher locks you out of using any other spells for a long time

Mainly as cleric i enjoy using the wand for farming xp solo and the extra burning effect but in group content it can cripple me if im stuck in the finisher animation and i cant save my team in time

[lofty dew]

oh absolutely, the damage is extreme but I hate wand

[mint galleon]

Clerics abilities are so boring that the wands finisher is all that amuses me when im farming

Bard and mages animations are fucking peak

And just entertaining to watch

Cleric is super generic honestly skill wise

[frozen peak]

Can we have an honest conversation about cleric: why tf are you all running divine infusion?!

[versed viper]

are you kidding, I love Cleric

how are you bored?

[versed viper]

because shortening the cast time of skills is fairly OP?

especially with how frequently you can use it

[frozen peak]

So, judgement?

Rez?

Also, are y'all using it at high levels 20+?

[mint galleon]

Nah just visually its boring

Its a strong class

Some of its skills are def borked though atm

Like judgement and defensive targeting cant be used

Unlike bard who can

And the chain spell on cleric is a bit broken in that it doesnt show you an overlay of where it will cast

You just have to guess based on where your mouse is

[frozen peak]

and no hovercast for mend

the greatest slight against our class

[mint galleon]

Ya bard def got the love

[vocal dragon]

I have also been testing spell book for both Perfect Timing and Echo. Have never procced a single time

[shut niche]

Hmm, wondering what's preventing that. I was seeing perfect timing procs pretty regularly

[vocal dragon]

With a spell book? That's so strange

[shut niche]

Yeah, this was only on my cleric, though

[vocal dragon]

I'm a cleric. Using uncommon Tin Spell book. Never has procced in hours of gameplay

Other weird thing: I'll randomly get Keen Edge procs even though neither of my weapons have Keen Edge specced

[shut niche]

Yeah, it seems a lot of folks were trying to figure out why finisher effects for weapons that weren't even equipped still seemed to get proc'd

like whether it's intended or not

[lofty dew]

Weird

I'll test it again

[unique oxide]

I play as a Tank.
This class is fantastic in dungeons—it tanks excellently and keeps aggro with ease. However, when I can’t find a group, the Tank becomes almost useless for solo gameplay. When the server is quiet, I struggle to explore, level up, or farm monsters on my own. The lack of damage makes fighting monsters nearly impossible, and I can only manage those that are lower level than me.
I understand that this is a social game meant for group play, but leveling up solo is a real challenge. Gaining experience on your own is next to impossible.
I really hope that when the classes are rebalanced, you’ll consider adding more damage to the Tank, making it more viable for solo play. I’m counting on you to make this improvement

[versed viper]

sure rez and judgement but mostly with Deliverance, although I can also use Flash for the same purpose for both Judgement and Deliverance (buying myself time to get the skill off).

yes at 20

[versed viper]

yea that's annoying so I just try to keep my mouse in the spot for the entirety of the cast which is annoying

[versed viper]

honestly I'm not a Mend fan but I know some people are. I'm always curious why people like it?

It heals for less and the travel time means you need to worry about positioning so you're close to your target

meh

Mend vs Deliverance really is the question, but I've seen some people who kind of use neither? Which is impossible if you're healing anything that actually needs you to be there

those are the AoE heal and Flash spammers 😱

[frozen peak]

I'm a major proponent of mend. I took a break from my 20 cleric during the week long playtest, but my mends were putting out major heals (and with vitually no mana cost), especially specc'd into the 5 charges + increasing heal nodes. I'd generally keep defiant light + Soothing on the tank, and pump them with mend (no hover casting, so would stick to the tank target), and flash cure the fighters (stop facetanking pyro blasts pls), or use flash cure as an emergency for the tank.

Throw in a flare, wave, beam and communal, I had very little issues healing carphin tower groups at level 19.

And I was running essence infusion which provided huge sustain if it was needed. Rarely had a problem flash curing through the rez cast.

[versed viper]

the problem is Deliverance is more mana efficient and heals for more

so Mend is just good for it's mobility

[frozen peak]

Yeah, I did occasionally use deliverance, it's great, it just was rarely needed with my setup

[versed viper]

and with the class resource it can cast fast too

[frozen peak]

I'd rather stick with the mana sustain of essence, and work around the longer cast time

[versed viper]

fair enough

[frozen peak]

But I was also solo healing the majority of my groups

with a 2nd cleric I could see one of them going divine

But i also felt really bored in my 2 cleric groups lol

and tried to avoid them

I have a feeling we'll get more skills where the trade-off becomes a harder decision

[versed viper]

yea no need for a 2nd Cleric but sometimes we just have so many Clerics

will be better when we have Summoner so they can backup heal when we really need it and otherwise they can DPS and we will not be bored

[versed viper]

Defiant Light though needs to be like a 1-3 min CD truly

30 seconds is incredibly OP

and Flash's stack refresh CD needs to be a lot larger too

[frozen peak]

lol i agree, sadly

[versed viper]

both are the Oh Shit heals

too many people rely on them for bread and butter healing

[frozen peak]

Flash also sets up some sick combos

oh flash cure, derp

[versed viper]

yea I keep forgetting the full name

[frozen peak]

was thinking the wave

[versed viper]

oh yea that's cool too though

I like comboing that

[frozen peak]

Yeah, flash cure is the keystone to all heals

it's a mandatory node placement just because you can use it during any other activation

Maybe that becomes a side-upgrade node someday

[versed viper]

yea a lot of skills feel too good not to take

[mint galleon]

when doing ruins of sepphilion and stuff having 2clerics was very nice

especially because if one died the other could revive them and the group wouldnt wipe

[frozen peak]

Yeah, I was okay with double CLR if we were doing massive tank pulls in Seraph and Carphin lol

[mint galleon]

if you have the gear sure but thats a gear issue atm

and gear is massively overtuned for pve encounters atm

[frozen peak]

Yeah, I got very lucky at highwaymen and nabbed the blue 300+ book, with a very nice 1hr

[outer sentinel]

gear is fine as long as drop rarity is respected🤔 plenty of content that felt fine before crafters flooded the market?

[agile saddle]

Tbh crafting is fine, the issue is the crafters figured out how to create legendaries with low quality materials

[outer sentinel]

yeah see my large discussion in crafting subchannel on that haha

its cheesing it atm rest is fine i agree

[echo cape]

Cheating?

You can’t be serious

You make a single piece of artisan gear in tailoring and equip it

Disregard cheating I read your statement wrong

But yeah it’s silly it works the way it does

I would argue it’s also silly how gear scales

[fluid jolt]

Rogue Archetype Speculation.

Skills.

• Expanded Lung Capacity (for staying underwater longer)

• Quick Step (movement speed boost for X seconds)

• Unlock (unlocks treasure chests in the world)

• Trick (removes enemy targetIng on the rogue)

• Smoke Bomb (lowers target accuracy)

• Backstab (does % more damage when hitting target from behind)

• Evasive stance (increased evasion at the cost of movement speed)

• Vicious stance (increased critical damage at the cost of mana consumption)

• Duelist stance (decreased stamina cost at the cost of damage)

• flurry (bleed proc flurry of attacks)

• Poison Strike (applies stacking poison damage

• Lethal Blow (consumes applied debuffs on the target to perform % more damage based on the number of debuffs consumed)

• Execute (chance to execute targets below % health)

• Expose Weakness (debuff that powers physical mitigation)

• Flash bomb (debuff that applies dazed)

• ? (Skill that applies humiliated)

• Stealth (long cooldown, 5 min stealth) (of course)

I don't think it will be high burst as seen in other mmos purely to the fact that if that's the case allot of rogue players will have corruption non stop.

INSTEAD I think it'll apply some sort of debuff mechanic that can be consumed to perform an execute.

[maiden hearth]

I think they’re gonna give rogue Perma stealth like wow honestly

[uncut ridge]

trick would be cool, but perma stealth or at least a long stealth should be left for double rogue classers, not rogue and mage/fighter/cleric/ect

[vale saffron]

My hope is that Rogue isn't reliant on stealth

We know that Rogue is supposedly the highest mobility archetype in the game

[fluid jolt]

It's so easy for movement and mobility to become OP 🤔

[mint slate]

Both mobility and stealth have ability to be abused and cheeses to become OP and that's a balance issue, the mobility I can't comment on till I can see what they do with it more but for stealth I feel if it functions like rangers camoflauge then I don't think it would be to bad to balance from there

[mint galleon]

Did you not see the vids where legendary gear lets you 1v40

[outer sentinel]

yes. legendary is truely legendary

and its overpowered but that is fixable by devs for sure. the issue is how does one person run around in full legendaries. that makes it sound a little less legendary and more cheese

statsquish or tuning is easier, once you get the numbers and processes of attainment balanced too. both need to be done, and as such both are being discusses at this moment

[gentle edge]

let say like DAoC. its the best stealth system out there. u have to suffer of the low mobility but ur invisible. exept for classes with a skilled passive to increase the detection radius. player without this passive can detect the stealther while walking near them, tho

and of course there should be a passive stealth skill that enables stealther to enter a castle/keep/outpost by climbing up the wall. this will make raids of those kind of structures much mor interesting.

[mint galleon]

Yes but that doesnt fly in pvp when someone can just RMT their way to godhood

Its one of the things that really ruined archeage was the terrible gear scaling involving crafted gear making people who abused RMT gods amongst men

If you got some legendary drop from a world boss or something sure that might be pretty cool but being able to make it all is iffy

[outer sentinel]

hence we have this discussion here? im sure devs can still adapt, we are after all in alpha-2

the focus wasnt gearing or balance

[mint galleon]

Id rather have build diversity be a more important factor than gear rarity

[outer sentinel]

the focus was stability and numbers

[mint galleon]

Why discuss anything than

[outer sentinel]

we give them input of the current state?

[mint galleon]

Its all pointless than

My bad

I misread

[outer sentinel]

no. it allows the devteam to get opinions and directions for stuff they input so far?

[mint galleon]

I thought you said why have this discussion here

Dont trust my lying eyes

😆

[outer sentinel]

just that im not surprised that its inbalanced at this moment, when literally we lack 90%+ of the world, 90%+ of the looting tables and items in general, we lack 90% of mechanics etc

[mint galleon]

Oh no im not either

[outer sentinel]

haha ok

[mint galleon]

Ive been in so many fucking alphas and other crap

And was even a paid game tester for a few years

[outer sentinel]

yeah and they are way worse then this game imo

so we can work with what we have got. it for some people feels like a complete game

[mint galleon]

Its just i believe in being loud about issues i care about so they get seen

[outer sentinel]

whilst this is literally first public alpha phase

[mint galleon]

I mean one of the streamers used a full legendary set to 1 shot half a raid including a GM

And now vids are popping up of bards soloing world bosses

So people are aware

I just want to make sure that awareness is spread

Dealt with too many korean mmos 😆

With this gaming taking so much inspiration from archeage its hard for me not to draw parallels to that games failings

As i played archeage from beta

And ive had my entire guild be soloed by a single guy who was a well known gold buyer on our server

Because the crafting system let you truly abuse it at higher levels

Not like our gear was cheap either

And its just flashbacks of that shit that gives me ptsd

[outer sentinel]

for me it felt more like SilkRoadOnline haha the mmorpg with carabans

[mint galleon]

The devs have quoted archeage a good bit as inspiration

Reason i bring it up

You had trade packs in archeage and a core endgame pvp function was attacking merchant ships and players running trade packs as thats how you made money

I was able to fully pay for my membership purely off of pvp in that game when i was younger

Almost everyday i was attacking people running trade packs with the guys

But even if you stole a tradepack and turned it in the creator of the pack got some of money if it was turned in

Here its all or nothing

But trade goods are way more obtainable here

As trade packs where made using farmed materials that took time to make and grow and the like

Instead of just mob drops

[strong pasture]

and the caravan system makes it so that most players can't take out a caravan player solo so far. So you have a pretty good shot of making it to your destination

[mint galleon]

The driver can be taken out relatively easily

[strong pasture]

I was a lvl 10 or 11 fighter with trash tier gear and got caught out in my caravan by a lvl 25 cleric. He couldn't do more than 500-700 damage to me in the 3-4 solid minutes of casts on me. He gave up and left

[mint galleon]

But thats cus its very easy to just stack insane damage atm due to gear scaling

[mint galleon]

I was 1 shot by a level 22 ranger at level 17 so

And my caravan was dead by the time i made it back

Cleric isnt really a dps class

[strong pasture]

Skill issue

Probably a AoE vs single target attacks?

[mint galleon]

cleric has 2 attacks it can use mainly

Most of its dps is from its auto attacks

[strong pasture]

yeah but I mean I'm in gray lvl 1 gear as a lvl 10 besides my blue lvl 1 sword

[mint galleon]

And thise attack skills have long cooldowns and are status effect based

[mint galleon]

Ranger using snipe can pull insane numbers with level 20 gear

[strong pasture]

Could be it

[mint galleon]

I was sniped

[strong pasture]

personally I'm chalking it up to my innate superiority

[mint galleon]

Lol i can link you a video of a ranger using an aoe to 1 shot half a raid of level 25s

[strong pasture]

I believe it

[mint galleon]

The corruption is what stopped him from doing more

[strong pasture]

I've seen a Mage single rotation a raid

[mint galleon]

But his first aoe took out everyone in front of him

Ya offensive scaling in weapons far outpaces defensive

Legendary armor wont stop shit in comparison to legendary bow

Or even lower tier bows

The numbers just get too high

[strong pasture]

Yeah

I hope this gets fixed soon. It's not even useful for testing because it's so blatantly broken

[mint galleon]

Ya next test is node wars which is gunna be an issue

If one streamer who gets fed can solo all the other nodes

And attacking a node destroys it and all its progress

[strong pasture]

"If"
When
and it'll likely be within the first 5 days

It's going to be a cluster

[mint galleon]

Ya exactly

Not something i look forward too

You dont even need the legendary armor just the weapon

Even just heroic will be enough

[strong pasture]

Fun times await us indeed.

Lower end PvP is apparently pretty good

But that phase won't last very long at all

[mint galleon]

Thats why we need a stat squish

And people frequently reference the start of archeage as its best time

As your build and skill where far more important

Until the gear gap came into play later on due to crafting

Some of the best pvp ive ever had

[strong pasture]

I'd like to see a compression of stats as well as legendary gear being roughly 10% as obtainable as it is now and I definitely did the calcs on that number

[mint galleon]

Gotta remember they are adding sockets and gems next as well

[strong pasture]

it doesn't feel like a legendary item, it seems like the obvious guaranteed endgame rarity

[mint galleon]

And there is gear enchanting already

Gear not being soulbound allows for some goofyness as well

On the RMT side

But i dont like soulbound gear but i understand why its a thing

Best thing you can do is just minimize the gap between rarities

[strong pasture]

Legendary should definitely be soulbound and allow the stats to be switched between magical or physical at a station of some sort

[mint galleon]

They are already on the right track with item buffs and you being limited to one

In archeage you could easily stack 30 buffs from potions and other bs as well

And boost your stats to insane values if you had the money to burn in pvp

I hate consumable buffs with a passion in mmos

[frozen peak]

heh, gonna see a LOT of griefing if we get soulbound legendaries

[strong pasture]

I'd rather see that then RMT ing the game into another Korean MMO

[lofty dew]

shouldnt be able to craft legendaries/epics at apprentice at all

its not really a hard problem to solve. the stat scaling issue is more complex though

[outer sentinel]

i posted my view on it in the artisan chat. lets not mix the discussions

there is a discussion on how easy it should be to craft said qualities (that discussion)
and there is this discussion that is how well some archetypes scale with gear that has insane statistics for our current balance of power

not even sure its archetype, its more general discussion there. the archetype part is that some classes (eg fighter or bard) become invincible more then others

[scarlet jackal]

Any eta on any rogue info?

[mint galleon]

I think they said january in the stream

Is when we will see it most likely

[scarlet jackal]

They said probably release in alpha in probably January. I’m just wondering when we will get like an update
On the wiki or something with talent tree or abilities descriptions

[agile saddle]

Phase 2 launch rogue might be in the ptr under nda

[brave egret]

My hope is to see it being presented in the next live 🙂

[fluid jolt]

Or they could be super clever and stealth launch the rogue 😂

[mint slate]

PTr is currently only visual NDA so if that stays that way as soon rogue hits ptr then the details will flow

[fluid jolt]

Trying to predict what the popular classes will be on Dec 20th now that people have had a chance to find what they like

[agile saddle]

bard and mage

bard for speed, mage for big dam

[maiden hearth]

Rogue will be most popular for phase 2

[brave egret]

It would be nice if they remove visual NDA for Rogue on 20th 🙂

[fluid jolt]

Yeah I hope it enters PTR asap

[mint slate]

I doubt intrepid will be removing NDA on ptr, doing so would mean they should just open access and o don't see that being the smart move, the handy part is that nda is just no direct images, literally nothing stopping someone seeing it on ptr and doing a recreation of their own of what it looks like and what every detail is

[waxen kindle]

I assume rogue will be the next featured live stream

[brave egret]

Same!

[cinder tundra]

Shoutout to that one guy that drew a really shitty microsoft paint image of the ptr to show off the scenery in the game.

[latent imp]

they should buff lower rarity and nerf higher rarity power rating/primary defence stats to squish everything together, i dont wanna play another archeage where the server dies after 3 months when one group snowballs to an unbeatable tier, idc if it "lessens" the time investment to get better gear, anything over a 20-30% difference in character strength is MASSIVE lmao

also squish lvl 10-50 gear tiers together

[dark robin]

This depends on patch notes. I sincerely hope that Intrepid give us a literal 20page BOOK of patch notes on December 19th

Truth be told, I think the classes will stay largely the same, with certain folks switching roles. The distribution was on par with what most would expect, having only 6 classes. As time goes on, that might change (see: rogue, summoner), but will probably be more of the same

[fluid jolt]

What's the estimated class popularity currently?

[dark robin]

DPS: 1) Mage........ Fighter/Ranger tied for #2, but it's far below mages.

Clerics and Bards are both prevalent and equal in my opinion, maybe slightly favoring bards.

Tanks are at the bottom and least played

[latent imp]

i play mage and it feels pretty shit having zero utility and only a bunch of damage skills, would be cool to lose some dmg and get utility for pvp, some cc or counters or something

tanks are better played as cc bruisers with some damage instead of something that just soaks damage, so its being played wrong by most ppl i think (outside of mob grinding)

[outer sentinel]

usual group compositions have 1 tank, 2 clerics a bard and rest is dps (any filling)

unsure how that will change once all archetypes are available, but that seems to be current meta from what i have seen for PVE.

PVP you will see slightly less tanks and maybe more dpsers

[echo cape]

Y’all think tanks can’t do anything in pvp in for funny surprise

[latent imp]

i got 2 shot in my full legendary set by an oof, tanks are sleepers

build for damage + cc and could prob win atleast 50% of time vs fighter

if niot more

[echo cape]

Even before legendary gear I could pump out 4k+ damage with a rotation and keep someone tripped for 4 seconds

Grapple also super fun (though very buggy)

don’t use your blink too early !

[dark robin]

Cleric with wings of salvation on myself (CC break) + purify to remove conditions for enemy skill rotations. Beyond that, the quintessential "don't let me get judgement off" wombo combo

Judgement > smite > Divine circle > instant condemn > chains, followed by consecrating wave and auto attack

Oh, and you know, flash cure to heal myself while casting spells if you try to stop me

[latent imp]

mage has an interrupt from cone of cold, but its critical to doing any meaningful dmg with shatter combo, feels bad lmao

cant just waste it to stop an enemy cast or else bursting becomes even more difficult

[dark robin]

The best thing a cleric can do is have someone not pay attention to them. Clerics skills are strong, but all have long cast times(can usually be mitigated by class passive). If clerics do get their skills off, though, they can hit hard. Consecrating wave gives volatile, divine flare silences, chains snares and stuns(though hard to hit stun), and condemn stuns

Comboing these is what makes or breaks a good fight

The biggest issue, honestly, is the buggy alpha targeting. Sometimes you'll randomly lose your target in pvp, sometimes you'll just straight up stop auto attacking - it's all pretty annoying

Combos have to have quick successions

[latent imp]

i love that they put cancel skill on the same button that opens the damn menu that also detargets everything

[dark robin]

There is an option to "left click on nothing to de-target", but that sometimes caused more harm than help

Also, hover healing targeting not working for Mend and Wings of Salvation is a travesty

[latent imp]

yea they need to just make an input to just cancel skill and thats it

not this multi use input, aids

aswell as detarget

[mint galleon]

Bard im pretty sure has the most amount of CC

Clerics CC requires alot of setup

[novel verge]

@echo cape i hope they do gear like they did with daoc imo.

[devout turret]

The battlefield control is huge

I have beaten full leg, bard, wizard. Yet to find fighter and sure I would loose to a ranger.

Bard is a tough one though. Only a 30-40% win rate. First hit wins between the two

If you get to the bard with charge its almost a guarantee win but if they cc you then they keep the gap to kill you in 2s

Fighter supposedly loses to tank

Haven't tested

Mage and tank is close but I consistently won (only did 3 rounds)

Haven't done cleric

[echo cape]

Like have an upper bound on state so there’s mostly an even playing field?

Yeah that’s one thing that made that game great

[lofty dew]

it seems physically impossible to lose to a tank as a bard

ngl

I would give you $400 if you beat me 1v1

I would venmo it instantly

[mint galleon]

I think bard beats everything atm

[lofty dew]

correct

[mint galleon]

It was given way too much kit

[lofty dew]

fighter can technically double trip 1 shot
but ive only had that done to me once

[latent imp]

all healer classes have to die in like 1 hit or youll rarely win

[lofty dew]

ye

i dont have leg weapons or rings. only like +2 on my gear

but it still feels stupid

[mint galleon]

For healers its just CC

Cleric gets 1 CC break

[latent imp]

archer/mage have no cc only root

[mint galleon]

But bard has multiple stuns

[latent imp]

sleep barely counts i guess from mage, feels out of place on the class

[devout turret]

Which server and we can test. Keep in mind bard does win more than tank but I had a 30-40% win rate

[latent imp]

only good for holding extra mobs at bay if u overpull lmfao

[lofty dew]

castus

[mint galleon]

Clerics crowd control recquires alot of status effects to be active before it can di anything

[latent imp]

TTK is so short in pvp even with similar gear i rarely needed to sleep a player in a 1v2

[mint galleon]

Bard recquires 0 setup

Just fucks on everything

Cant even fight back

I mean i see the love that was put into the class in its animations and its design

Just the Dev who made it was clearly playing favorites lol

[lofty dew]

im sure other classes will get utility
for one, a lot of cc breaks dont even work right now. such as mage blink

[mint galleon]

Dodge roll

Is a mess

[devout turret]

Ah, lotharia for me

[mint galleon]

Block is in such a weird state for me

[devout turret]

I agree. My enemy only needed to hold Q to do the dmg required. He couldn't do his rotation before I died. The strat had to be refined over many many deaths

[lofty dew]

i just dont see what tank does if you buffer roll the hook

or buffer flourish

[devout turret]

Buffer roll?

[lofty dew]

you legit cant even trip in time

lol

[mint galleon]

Im sure rogue wont exasperate the time to kill issue

[devout turret]

Tank has 2x instant trips

[lofty dew]

and even if you could trip a buffered flourish

you just cc break/flourish cancel

[mint galleon]

Just toss some legendary daggers on a rogue and watch the hilarity ensue

[devout turret]

Ahh bard speak. Me no gets

[mint galleon]

Its worth it to make a character of each type to read their skills

Bard has the most complicated skill tree by far though

[lofty dew]

buffer just means as you go for the hook, as soon as I see the hook animation I instantly cast flourish or roll
the game doesn't handle it very well right now
so the roll/flourish goes off as soon as im hooked in

I mean it requires energy drink level reaction times but its something I can do regularly

just need caffeine LOL

if we fought late at night, i prolly couldn't do it

[mint galleon]

Theres a reason why some games make certain stuns only work in pve

[devout turret]

Ahhhh, yeah. I found my grapple wasn't working. Sometimes it doesn't work period. I find rush to be more reliable. However, one needs to be careful on to get cc'd on the way or it's game over

[lofty dew]

I have also reacted to fighter charge with instant 180 get off the stage but again, that's caffeine shit

and fighters can technically buffer their trip while charging i think

[mint galleon]

Stuns break games

[lofty dew]

yep grapple has a ton of LOS bugs

[mint galleon]

Also bards instant ranged silence

A psychopath gave them that skill

[lofty dew]

assuming there's not a huge gear diff, there isn't a lot of counterplay to
marionete -> walk slowly up to them -> do an emote -> discord -> mes dance -> weapon combo -> silence -> do another emote -> get off stage -> chill -> trip -> emote -> lullaby -> dead

the problem is bard not only has a ton of buttons, they have a ton of very very very good buttons

[mint galleon]

More Stuns and cc than some classes combined

[lofty dew]

correct

[mint galleon]

Ontop of healing and dps

And buffs

[lofty dew]

i actually think its fairly hard to play bard optimally in pvp
but because all your buttons are so good it doesnt matter

the decision tree is hard to get wrong

[mint galleon]

For a cleric to get a stun on you they have to burn you with a wand or spellbook or cast judgement which is a 4 second cast

Than cast smite to give you conflagration

Which is another like 2 second cast time

Than cast i forgot the name tbh thats also like a 2 second cast

To get a 4 second stun

[strong pasture]

I'm hoping that the TTK gets addressed. I love theory crafting, but all of it is cope when the reality is that we've got 1.5-2.5s TTK at 'high level'

[mint galleon]

To pull off a silence requires you to sit still for 2+ seconds as an aoe is cast and gives you a massive indicator before it goes off

[lofty dew]

depends on how they adjust the gear
it will certainly improve no matter what if they tune stats, because most gear is overloaded with offensive stats right now

[strong pasture]

Agreed

Right now the meta class would be a class that has:

1. a ranged, non-skill shot/non template silence/stun.

2. Average damage output

Since gear is so overloaded right now.

The play is to stun/silence into damage and that's gg

[versed viper]

Bard is definitely broken. I hope they can make it more like Aion Chanter where they were great in groups but not great solo.

But the skills are too good solo right now and I dunno how Aion balanced that but Ashes can’t. Hopefully they can figure it out. Maybe adjusting skill tree so they need to make harder choices as to what to take.

[simple walrus]

Simple. Ashes hasn't done class balancing yet. Because that's not the focus of this phase.

Not all of the classes are in yet either, so doing any kind of in depth balancing would require back tracking again to rebalance later.

[versed viper]

Oh yea we know but still good to discuss balance anyway

They are starting some balance at start of A2 I think

Not everything needs all classes to balance. Like Cleric just by itself it’s clear some things need longer cds.

[lofty dew]

i would hate this so much

it would just become another buff bot which is exactly what they seem to want to avoid

[versed viper]

No not buff bot still doing lots of things just not a dps cc solo powerhouse cause that’s broken especially for a class that’s supposed to act as a force multiplier for parties

Chanter had lots of stuff they were doing too. Buff debuff cc dps shield heal mana regen but weren’t good solo

[lofty dew]

well they would have to nearly completely rework their vision of the design then

which isnt the move imo. it already has good design

just needs tuning

[versed viper]

Needs to be trade offs and choices. Cant be amazing at everything. No class can.

Don’t have to change what the class is

[mint galleon]

Meta class is whatever has the most stuns atm which is bard

Bard has the equivalent of 4 hard ccs i believe

If it lands a single stun you just cant fight back

And alot of its stuns are ranged as well

Other classes recquire setup to trigger their stuns but bard can just instantly fuck you

[strong pasture]

That's basically my point. Notice how I didn't include anything before the "stun/silence" step. If it requires setup, then it wouldn't be meta currently. Fighter can stun, but you need to get close, which means it fails the "ranged" qualifier. As the game is currently, ranged > melee. Damage > Defense. Access to abilities is king, so silence/cc/stun/w.e is huge. That means anything that can cc you from range and do "ok" damage based on class will be meta since legendary gear makes even "ok" damage classes capable of insanely low TTK.

Bard most fits and exceeds those requirements. As far as PvP is concerned, it's the best class

[mint galleon]

Stuns are always broken

Its weird how they gave other classes setup stuns and synergy with other classes and than said fuck it and ignored all the design elements to make the monstrosity that is bard

[versed viper]

Bard has a lot of healing too for a class that isn’t really supposed to have any beyond like light passive hots. “Non-healing support” yea right

[mint galleon]

Ya who would’ve thought funny music man was actually the harbinger of the end times and destroyer of worlds

Bards can solo world bosses as well

Bards movement passives make them faster than rank 2 mounts

They also have skills to lower the threat they and other’s generate

So you can use a fighter or somebody else to hold aggro in smaller groups

Dont even need a tank

The only thing they cant do is resurrection

Which is kinda shit that clerics rez still applies an xp penalty

[frozen peak]

Much like EQ, in envisioned that higher level clerics may have access to better Rez

[mint galleon]

Ya maybe cleric cleric

Bards the newest class though right

It kind of figures its broken beyond belief atm if its brand new

[frozen peak]

yeah, tried to duel my bard friend (on both cleric and fighter). he just hard CC'd me and laughed.

[mint galleon]

If they run out of hard ccs they still have instant cast ranged silences they can spam

[versed viper]

Cleric rez reduces xp penalty by I think 50% or something. It’s not on tooltip but it does reduce it compared to what your debt would be rezzing at a shrine.

[mint galleon]

Its very rough on tanks

As the tank can wipe and the rest can survive

Tanks eat the most xp loss

Should get a passive that reduces xp loss for them

Im if bard isnt nerfed for December basically anyone trying to pvp will probably run bard

Especially since multiple bards can buff each other further

Reaching critical buff mass 😆

[versed viper]

Yea that’s broken too

[mint galleon]

You just need 3 bards to spam their aoe shield and they will all have a 100% shield up constantly

Heals and damage buffs

[versed viper]

😩

[neon sand]

As a heal-specc'd Bard, I definitely believe our shields shouldn't be able to stack like that. That's too strong. Lol

I do think the burst heal and shield of Serenade with both skills is a tad strong. But I do feel like if the shield dance was instead made a bit more potent but reduced duration and cast time, you could have one side the tree be focused on heals one focused on shields. But neither should be as strong as, or stronger, than a Cleric. I think what balances this out is the CD on heals and the fee heals Bard has compared to the plethora of heals Clerics have.

Since we've only Jest, Shield Dance and Serenade (and Healing Song if you count that).

I think lowering Jest's heal and jumping it up 1% mitigation could be cool. Ideally Bard would make Cleric's job easier, not compete nor replace.

[versed viper]

Well the problem is Bards aren’t supposed to heal at all. Summoner is the off-heal support for Clerics

[neon sand]

I'd definitely settle on keeping Bard as an off-heal, but leaning heavily more to support than heal versus than Summoner. 'Cause imho we need more than just a single class as a single main class IMHO.

[mint galleon]

Cleric needs to sacrifice 20% of their hp to apply a barrier to one ally where bards can provide a stronger barrier in an aoe with no sacrifice

[versed viper]

Every archetype is one role no overlap. And Bard is non heal support which is a ton of stuff to offer already. Summoner is off-heal off-tank and dps. Game doesn’t need overlap.

[neon sand]

The sacrifice should last much longer and be much more potent for the trade off. Maybe to balance make their heals a pinch diminished on themselves, maybe longer CD. But the shield Clerics do get does need to be stronger. I imagine it's supposed to be a "OH SHIT" panic button in the same way Serenade should be if there's other healers.

Or rather that shields should be in general AoE huge damage mitigation narrow window buffs.

[lofty dew]

what is the coefficient of barrier

[neon sand]

If that's the intended game design then that's fair. It does make me wonder how dramatic Rogue will be in difference to Fighter then.

[mint galleon]

Ya bard doesn’t just have the tools it has the whole damn hardware store

[lofty dew]

i think its likely jus the most fleshed out class atm
but im not gonna disagree that its overtuned, ive been arguing that its OP from day 1

[neon sand]

A la EverQuest back in the day. xD The tradeoff is it should be jack of all trades master of none, and have those diminished. Except if they're too diminished they're just garbage. Lmao

[mint galleon]

Bards is i believe 40% or so of the targets hp and its aoe and clerics is 20% of your hp sacrificed as health to the target

[versed viper]

It’s the newest and thus least fleshed out class. That’s why it’s so broken.

[neon sand]

Bard is definitely cracked. Lol

[neon sand]

Sheeeesh yeah buff cleric shield plox lol

[lofty dew]

no, shield dance is a 300% (talented 350%) coefficient. its not based on max hp

[mint galleon]

Oh thats even more disgusting

[lofty dew]

but what that does mean, is that because of the way power scales in the game vs health, a shield with a coefficient is better

[mint galleon]

Ya cleric shield is based off your hp sacrificed

[lofty dew]

yes, shield dance is one of the best moves in the game, ive said it in this chat before

[neon sand]

Yeah at the moment wearing Plate full heal speccd as I am, I can pull 10 or so mobs and AOE and hack and slash them all down without a sweat.

Mind, if I miss a beat, I go splat, but still. Lol

[mint galleon]

Ya ill probably just have my buddys and me all go bard in December so we can just rush levels

[neon sand]

Also Mesmerizing dance. 10 second incapacitate with a potential 4 second stun and being able to use a unique damage during? It needs tuned. Lol

[mint galleon]

And get to pvp

[lofty dew]

shield dance is particularly insane bc it doesnt seem to be target capped.
nimble dance is similiarly insane,
but who else can counter ranger vines + mage aoe in war but bard?
its a tricky thing to balance

[versed viper]

The idea that heal specced Bards are even a thing is something that needs to go in the balancing

[mint galleon]

Will be easier for crafters to as they only need to focus on gear for one class

[lofty dew]

its 3 seconds, 3.9 seconds with leg set bonus + 2 points in weapon tree for disable duration

but tbh, i feel like you have to take crit avoidance in weapon tree in pvp rn

[mint galleon]

Even if bard did 0 damage or heals the sheer amount of crowd control it has makes it broken

[neon sand]

I was mostly speaking what the tooltip says for PvE but aye

It's CC does need reduction.

[mint galleon]

How did bard make it past the test server

[neon sand]

Either by longer CD, higher mana cost, lower duration and/or longer cast time.

[versed viper]

Good question

[neon sand]

I don't think it's that so severely egregious. xD Lol But it is definitely in need of some TLC and balancing into line.

Definitely strongest and too strong.

[mint galleon]

Nah its just like someone whos never touched an mmo made it is all

Well pvp in an mmo

The animations and love given to it is great though

Its abilities are flavorful

But it had almost 0 playtesting

[versed viper]

Cleric needs adjustments too. Flash Cure and Defiant Light being such short CDs allows for people to do just fine even when playing poorly. Just smash buttons there’s no consequence.

[mint galleon]

Flash cure is the only thing that lets clerics dps

As it doesnt have an animation

So you can heal yourself and others without breaking auto attack animations

[versed viper]

Even seeing people spam AoE heals on full or nearly full hp targets drives me nuts. It shouldn’t be so easy to waste mana, or the clerics who only heal and AA but nothing else, useless.

[mint galleon]

Bards just give everyone infinite mana

So who cares

[versed viper]

You can throw in other skills in between heals and some of our damage/debuff/cc has healing on it too

[mint galleon]

Also i use aoe heals while the other heals are on cooldown

Especially to patch minor damage across the party

[versed viper]

See that’s a problem you don’t need to and it should be more punishing to do it

We have single target heals with no cd for if one or two need spot healing. AoE we have tons of those on short CDs it’s more than enough for any damage on 3+ targets

But nothing matters and they need to fix that

[mint galleon]

Clerics single target healing outside burst heals is kinda shit tbh

Long cast times for very little reqard

Mend is a joke of a skill

The mana costs are all out of wack

Mend gives the worst healing to mana ratio of the whole cleric kit despite being your starting skill

And its heals are abysmal and the projectile pathfinding bad and slow

[versed viper]

Oh no disagree. Deliverance is amazing, you also have Flash and Defiant Light and Divine Infusion if you can’t cast a 50-100% cast before they get too low.

[mint galleon]

You cant use judgement as a healing skill if you have defensive targeting enabled

Unlike bards skills that have dual effects

[mint galleon]

I said mend

[versed viper]

You said our single target is shit

[mint galleon]

Ah

Yes outside of the bursts

[versed viper]

Disagree deliverance is always good

[versed viper]

You can I don’t much but probably should

[mint galleon]

No it bugs out

[versed viper]

And Deliverance is dynamic you have a lot of options on how you want to use it

[frozen peak]

meh, between pumping mend, beam, wave, i never use judgement

but i'm also a dirty essence user

[mint galleon]

If you have defensive targeting enabled

Ya the healing wave is so good

Deliverance just has a really long cast times for little reward

Judgement is good with divine infusion when its not being a buggy mess

[versed viper]

I think the intention is for you to be close to your target with mend to minimize projectile time. And the benefit is it’s an instant spammable heal. But it doesn’t heal enough and mana costs not great.

[mint galleon]

But thats mostly defensive targetings fault

[frozen peak]

mana don't mean a thing with essence 😄

[versed viper]

Fast casting too good

[mint galleon]

Mend has the lowest mana efficiency though and its heals suck

[frozen peak]

Not with 300+ spell book + good 1hr + focus

[mint galleon]

Easier to use anything else

[frozen peak]

and you can crit on mend

[mint galleon]

Well offensive scaling is ridiculous

[versed viper]

It heals for a lot and you don’t have to full cast it

[frozen peak]

I mean, at low levels sure, but at 20+ mend should not be slept on

[mint galleon]

Compared to hp and defensive

Ya considering their hp barely goes up even with legendary gear

[frozen peak]

yeah, scaling is wack rn lol

i'm sure that will change

[mint galleon]

Its not a good measure of the skill

Since its only 100% magic damage to healing

So its essentially your auto attack as a heal

Which is typically shit

[frozen peak]

But yeah, with essence infusion in a hard grinding group, you'll never, ever run out of divine power just doing typical heal rotations + auto attack

[mint galleon]

Compared to judgement with its 1500% heal and the others 300%+

the hots can outheal mend

[frozen peak]

yeah, soothing + defiant on the MT is goated

[versed viper]

Why not all of our damage debuff cc etc skills? That’s my rotation when not healing. Should do everything we can to help.

[mint galleon]

Blessed weapon and a shortbow with mana or a wand with mana skill

[versed viper]

I don’t like soothing

[mint galleon]

Can go for hours easily

[versed viper]

Feels like it does nothing

[mint galleon]

You need its upgrade

[frozen peak]

yeah but that's built into my rotation already: wave = volatile, then flare for the silence.

[mint galleon]

That gives it 3 charges and lets you stack its timer

[versed viper]

I put blessed on a party member so they can give me mana 🙂

[mint galleon]

Can just toss a 21+second heal on the tank or someone else

And maintain it permanently

And you dont even need mend

[versed viper]

I don’t really use mend either

[mint galleon]

I use soothing and defiant

[versed viper]

I throw soothing on the tank but I don’t like it. Might not keep it

Defiant is an oh shit button. It’s cd should be like 2 minutes

[mint galleon]

I can toss 1 charge of soothing on various party members instead if wasting burst heals on them

Or just hit them with a wave or communal healing

I use divine infusion to spam communal healing

[versed viper]

Those options aren’t super efficient

[mint galleon]

Not like manas a concern

[versed viper]

For one or two targets even less so for top ups

[versed viper]

If you’re busting ass it is casting something non stop

We can spend all our time on dps debuff cc etc we have a ton of options

[mint galleon]

Ive healed a party of 8 nonstop with no issues

[versed viper]

Need to do more than heal and auto attack

[mint galleon]

With a bard in our party and blessed weapon on the tank i had infinite mana

[frozen peak]

If there's double CLR then, i agree with you Leiloni

[mint galleon]

Purify is your only other option

[frozen peak]

but i'd almost always solo heal with extra DPS

our dps is a fraction of the pure dps classes

[versed viper]

I have both of those and run low cause there’s more we can do to help our team than only heal

[shut niche]

chains stun, the silence and/or magic mit from the ground thing, condemn

[frozen peak]

yes, but we're not saying we don't do other things lol

[mint galleon]

I use the aoe chain spell and the divine flare for pve pulls

Ya mana isnt an issue its why i like the Hots

I toss hots and focus on dps

Save burst for tank

[versed viper]

Silence into volatile which also removes debuff, chains to slow into stun. Judgement dps Into smite aa chain rinse repeat heal wit other skills as needed

[shut niche]

or the gd fireball that goes through to a non-tank lol

[mint galleon]

I use the barrier on the tank topped off just save myself healing and use wave to heal myself from the sacrfice and deal more damage and aoe healing

[frozen peak]

Again, a lot of us run for sustain (essence), judgement in that case is a waste of time

Our DPS sucks

[mint galleon]

Idk how your having manna issues as cleric

[versed viper]

It’s not bad but also stop being lazy

[mint galleon]

Do you not use blessed weapon

[frozen peak]

who is running out of mana?

[mint galleon]

I dont need essence

I use infusion

[versed viper]

I am casting nonstop all the above I just typed in between healing

[mint galleon]

If you truly want infinite mana use a short spellbow

[frozen peak]

yep, shortbow is king for solo

[versed viper]

This

[versed viper]

Yes

[mint galleon]

I found cleric disappointing to be honest

Leveling a bard more next time

[shut niche]

How about them Wings physics, though?

slingshotting my cleric has been fun to mess around with

[frozen peak]

you can wing your mount btw!

[versed viper]

Cause you’re not using half of our abilities and the best and most useful ones lol

[frozen peak]

yeah, cleric is wild here

very strong

[shut niche]

One thing that seems lacking is how obvious certain status effects are as well as the immunities once the CCs wear off

[frozen peak]

bard is cracked too, and can also be really active (or at least should be if you're doing resonance stacks correctly)

[shut niche]

watching the debuff section for which immunities are rolling has been pretty meh, but that's probably where most of my cleric "engagement" comes from

[mint galleon]

Im judging cleric based of WOWs holy paladin and holy priest though

Which is probably the best healer ive played in ages

For a tab target

[shut niche]

well, what else does holy priest do other than heal and smite or that other fire spell?

[mint galleon]

But thats had alot if time to cook

[mint galleon]

Depends on the expansion i only played like 2 of em but they apply stuns and cc to the opponent

[versed viper]

Yea they’re ok healers but Ashes is better. It reminds me a bit of Aion Cleric and Tera Priest. Both of those were also better than WoW

[shut niche]

which is what cleric is doing rn

[mint galleon]

Tera was good because of its action combat

[mint galleon]

No its what bard is doing but better

[versed viper]

Here and there. They’re cc and stuns aren’t rotational abilities

[mint galleon]

And their debuffs are massive telegraphed attacks

A toddler can avoid

Ah yes sit still for 8 seconds and you will get stunned

[versed viper]

Cleric here reminds me of it cause Priest did so much more than heal in a regular rotation

[mint galleon]

Im sure the glowy circle is friendly

If your fighting a paraplegic you can get your ccs off

[versed viper]

This is a game designed around large scale PvP not 1v1

The skills work better in a team

[mint galleon]

Than those aoes are even more poorly designed

Really gunna keep a group in one tiny circle for 8 seconds

It works great in pve

[frail stirrup]

What do you all recommend for a build for someone who played a multi role druid in vanilla wow back in the day before they ruined it with the locked specing.

[spice radish]

Do you think rogue will be a burst DPS class?

[shut niche]

it'd be great if there were some variety based on secondary

[spice radish]

i'm talking about main class

[neon hawk]

Probably. Or a poisoning/debuff based class

[burnt thicket]

Based on the description from the wiki - It sounds like it will be a burst dps

Probably requires set up for further big dmg after break semi-stealth (Apparently Rogue/Rogue is going to be the only thing that gets true stealth?) - Forgot where I read or heard this

[sullen verge]

Reddit. Don't trust what you hear on reddit.

The wiki has a quote from Sharif "True stealth resides within the realm of the Rogue (primary) archetype" but even that seems to be a misquote. If you peer at the screenshot in the attribution, Sharif doesn't say primary. And it is lacking context to say if whoever added it in the wiki did soo accurately.

[burnt thicket]

Yeah, we pretty much won't know really until we see the class in-Alpha / PTR then.

[versed viper]

everything in the wiki has a footnote with it's source. That line is sourced directly from Steven -

click the "19" to view source. Always click sources in the wiki because they often give far more information than the one line

[sullen verge]

You're missing what I'm saying. The body of the wiki has "True stealth resides within the realm of the Rogue** (primary**) archetype"
The source (including your picture) does not. Just like I was saying.

[versed viper]

that's exactly what he says

#aoc-discussion message

[sullen verge]

Where in your picture does he say "primary"?

No access to that channel. PTR or something?

[versed viper]

that's what archetype refers to

secondary is the sublcass

you can also just read the question and the first half of his answer, and the part about ranger too

it's fairly obvious

[versed viper]

it's a public channel. It's the main AoC Discussion channel everyone has access to. Listed under the A2 channels

[sullen verge]

The word archetype has been used to refer to both primary and secondary. And class as the combo of both.
Even in the recent roadmap for phase 3 it says "Secondary Archetype specialization for Cleric and Tank"

~~If Sharif didn't specify only primary, then I don't have any faith that a 3rd party knew to clarify things by adding it. ~~
I see what you're saying "Some augments from the rogue subclass will confer stealth like effects" Mentioning augments of course logically meaning rogue secondary.

That was really hard to see looking at the wiki footnote. Discord is giving me issues...general-discussion in this server? I don't see it as an option in 'Browse Channels'

[spice radish]

vey odd, and I wouldn't say that

[versed viper]

You don’t see this community section?

[sullen verge]

No, I'm missing that whole section.

msging a mod to try and get that figured out.

[charred seal]

Can you find anywhere where PvP focused is actually mentioned as a design pillar? I know a lot of people have looked at the open non-instanced world and inferred that the intent was to create a large group PvP game, but has that been actually stated by anyone?

[fossil rivet]

Ashes of Creation Wiki

Design pillars

The design of Ashes of Creation adheres to five main pillars.

Engaging and immersive story
Reactive world
Player interaction
Player agency
Risk vs reward
In designing Ashes of Creation, we adhere every detail to five main pillars: Engaging and Immersive Story, a Reactive World, Player Interaction, Player Agency, and Risk vs Reward. Even in the en...

Learn more here

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars

[charred seal]

Yeah, but if your read the Player Interaction section that is focused far more on co-operation than conflict.

[shut niche]

the risk vs reward section talks about world pvp

[versed viper]

that was more of a balance comment and I can find the reference to that but it is PvP along with PvE focused, hence why they call it PvX (which often refers to both intermingling and not being separated like in a themepark)

[charred seal]

But again hardly in a way that anyone could see that as the focus.

[versed viper]

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Best-in-slot_items#Class_balance

actually this is a better link, same text though https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance

[shut niche]

unsure what yer getting at. pvp is listed as one of the components of a design pillar

AoC focuses on more than just pvp

[versed viper]

so what I was saying with the 1v1 comment is you will have a lot of bad matchups 1v1. Archetypes will be balanced around the idea that you're in a group or raid with the other 7 archetypes.

[frozen peak]

I did worry about this for stuff like electing mayors lol

Unless they'll have champions, or 3v3 matchups

[shut niche]

Yeah, unsure what the military voting will look like wrt pvp. If balance is around a full group of 8, then having anything less or more would be weird

[versed viper]

that's just the military nodes right? But yea unclear how they'll do those.

[frozen peak]

Yeah, I figured you'd be able to do a full team pvp. 1v1 would obviously be weird given the intended imbalance.

[versed viper]

but to answer this question there's some talk here about PvX. PvP is a focus yes, and PvE will be in the game as well. But PvP is a large part and you won't be able to avoid it entirely. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvX

[charred seal]

I was responding to your comment that "This is a game is designed around large scale PvP...", I know it was slightly out of context, but it seemed a little jarring. There are many design pillars, and large-scale PvP isn't one of them. The fact that world PvP is mentioned in one of them doesn't seem enough to support this statement.

[versed viper]

the game is honestly designed around large scale PvP though

[charred seal]

Again, where do you see that?

[versed viper]

it's the glue that makes all the interconnecting systems work and creates the player friction and drama that drives change in the world

[shut niche]

I didn't make the original comment, but I get ya. So, there's nodes, open-world content, economy, etc. All those systems have PvP implications, it's woven into almost everything

[signal onyx]

Try selecting your language in this post... #read-me-first message

[shut niche]

Without it being explicitly quoted, you can see that PvP is A focus when interacting with each of those systems

I suppose if you're looking for a quote, though...I'd have to scour the wiki lol

[charred seal]

That actually contradicts one of the design pillars, "Because players are motivated by different things, because they want something from the game that other players don't want, that's going to cause people to butt heads. Different players are going to want different experiences and the conflict between the two of them will create a bigger and better thing. Out of strife comes rebirth and that's a core symbol, it's a core theme that occurs throughout the game."

[versed viper]

yes conflict between players, PvP

so don't like how a guild is running a node? Siege their node and tear it down, etc.

or maybe there's a fight over an open world dungeon grind area or world boss and you declare a GvG war on the guild there, etc.

[charred seal]

Yes but saying it is "designed around PvP?" Not certain how you get there.

[versed viper]

from following the game since it's start and listening to everything

it's not something you can summarize in one sentence

browse the wiki and the systems

[shut niche]

hmm, maybe there's just different interpretations of what is meant by "designed around PvP"

I can't think of a system currenly in AoC that doesn't touch PvP in some way

[versed viper]

PvP is intended to drive player change in the world and weaves together all of the game systems and is what makes them work. Without player conflict, drama, allies and enemies, a lot of the systems don't do much because players need the motivation to interact with them in meaningful ways

like who cares about caravans if nobody tries to kill you along the way? It becomes a meaningless slow walk across the map to make gold otherwise, just a dull annoying grind without that risk

[charred seal]

I have, that is why i am questioning your take on the subject. As far as I can see, open world PvP is limited to the open sea.

[frozen peak]

you mean unregulated pvp?

[versed viper]

no open world PvP is the entire map, you can't escape it

[shut niche]

the open sea pvp is just unleashed pvp...no corruption

[frozen peak]

open sea = FFA (what we used to call it in EQ)

[shut niche]

you can still flag up anywhere and attack whomever you wish

[charred seal]

I'm still not getting the "designed around" Just because open world PvP exists, doesn't mean the game is designed around it.

[versed viper]

ok so there are types of PvP. So called "opt-in open world battlegrounds" like caravans, guild wars, node/castle sieges, etc. I put them in quotes because they're not entirely opt-in. I can declare war on your guild and you have no choice in it, if I declare war on the node you're a citizen of you're affected by that, if you decide to take a caravan somewhere (and you will), you are a mobile PvP event, etc.

Aside from that is the corruption system yes, and open seas which have no rules

[charred seal]

I get all that - I was just making a specific point. Not taking an extreme view against PvP.

[shut niche]

Ah, ok. Seems more like a semantics thing, then

[frozen peak]

I can't tell if you're mincing words, but the game has/is being designed around the idea that pvp is foundational to the game and every mechanic

[shut niche]

mmmmmm, minced words 🤤

[charred seal]

A little - but I would say, group PvE balance would be more important than PvP balance for example.

[latent imp]

the game is a pvp game with some pve objectives

[frozen peak]

Both will get balance passes

[latent imp]

pvp balance is far more important because bad pvp balances makes people quit

[versed viper]

the node system that governs the entire world - what content we get, where it is, what resources and mobs are located where and at what levels, etc. - is entirely revolved around players building up and tearing down nodes and fighting over them. Trade system and economy is heavily reliant on location-based resources, and the caravan system is a big part of that, which is another PvP event

[shut niche]

yeah, I think pvp balance comes first, then tweak pve stuff on top of that foundation

[charred seal]

Again, not an extreme view, both will be looked at, but in order of importance.

[latent imp]

a pve game that has some pvp can afford to ignore pvp balance, that is not this game 🤣

[frozen peak]

Yeah, i can't tell what timeline you're discussing this in. PVP and PVE are integral lol

[shut niche]

that just sounds....crazy 😏

[frozen peak]

pvp balance will be just as important

[charred seal]

Why?

[latent imp]

either way in the end its just a rush from day 1 to take over a server make everyone else quit and free farm

[frozen peak]

because the entire system runs on PVP

[versed viper]

most PVE themeparks work that way

[shut niche]

I was joking cuz his name is cra....nvm

[charred seal]

Nice try - not biting! 🤣

[latent imp]

every other sandbox pvp game works this way, ashes is no different

no matter how many mechanics are added to try and combat it >.<

[frozen peak]

I mean, the vassal system alone is gonna creat conflict

[charred seal]

I doubt it - It will probably be used to make bigger muli-node kingdoms for bigger guilds.

[latent imp]

the little guys get stomped out within 3 months maximum

then its just how long for big zergs to put up with not being the winner for them to start quitting too

[shut niche]

https://tenor.com/view/ernest-ernest-p-worrell-crown-crown-royal-royal-gif-23789030

yeah, those lowly vassals better not be late with their tributes

[latent imp]

if a zerg isnt winning its looking for the next server to go to so it can start winning there 😄

[charred seal]

There are so many reasons a zerg wont work.

[shut niche]

well, keep engaging with the test passes and give what feedback you think isn't working wrt zerging

[latent imp]

i mean it never works, sandbox pvp games have a milk-level shelf life before the server is basically dead and fresh start servers need to get spun up due to the lack of new players joining older "won" servers

[frozen peak]

there's a reason all the modern EQ pvp servers had "seasons"

zerg stomps the underdogs

and people quit

[latent imp]

the grand vision just doesnt hold up with the current sandbox pvp connotations honestly, player mentality is always win win win so theyll do everything they can to make sure nobody else wins, when you dont win you dont have fun and you leave

if some lvl 30 dude has his node dec'd on and loses a bunch of his crafting shit, he may aswell have been rollbacked by the devs and thats a big quit moment for him, among dozens of other imaginary scenarios

those lvl 30 scrubs pay the subscription fee first and foremost

[charred seal]

that is why the game isn't designed around PvP.

[latent imp]

let alone if he tries a caravan and one lvl 50 decides to wreck him

😄

[versed viper]

this is why you join a guild

[latent imp]

even if he brings a party of other lvl 30s, unless the gear scaling is nonexistant they are screwed

fps games have matchmaking to keep these players separated, but not possible with sandbox open world

[charred seal]

Corruption?

[latent imp]

no corruption for declaring endlessly on a smaller guild, or attacking caravans

or chaining mobs with AOEs onto enemies ect

corruption is just to stop dumb griefers

[charred seal]

Going to cost you a week of PvE to declare and once you beat them once, they are vassaled and you cant attack them.

[latent imp]

then ill put on full white gear and kill them once or twice & taunt them then scrub the corruption, im probably in a big guild and theres definitely more then 1 of me, my goal is to win the server remember 😄

its like an impossible concept to work for as long as ashes wants to be around (without endless fresh starts bringing in these new subscription payers)

other big mmos like WoW do huge expansions and reset the slate to entice new players / curb older players and give them new stuff to grind for

i dont think ashes is planning that, at some point all old players just get bored and go pick on whoevers left

[frozen peak]

I could imagine losing a sweet freehold/guildhall is gonna feel terrible

[latent imp]

this game is gunna have so many massive "thats it im done" quit moments for the majority of all types of players from sweats to gamer dads, i just dont see the end goal for it, whats a server look like after 1-2 years

maybe some miracle keeps new people joining the game and bearing through to max level and whatnot but idk

[versed viper]

you just complained a dude might quit after losing everything in a node war and then say Ashes needs something new to grind for

[latent imp]

yea having some other player take all my shit away versus an expansion full of new cool stuff

[versed viper]

this isn't a themepark

[latent imp]

its a big mentality difference in how u get set back

[versed viper]

this is Pinky and the Brain fight for world domination

[shut niche]

It's certainly possible that a lot of gamers will try out AoC without knowing about the risks of losing what they've been grinding for. There will be gamers that remain knowing this and accept it

[versed viper]

and rinse/repeat when someone destroys your town

[latent imp]

and when thin skinned gamers cant get a W they quit, so what happens when someone wins the server?

[versed viper]

server is too big for that

game map that is

[latent imp]

no chance, over time everybody quits

mmos dont generate new players unless some big update or fresh servers drop

specifically some big update that makes being a new player easier

[versed viper]

you might have some big guild in one tiny corner of the map taking over that region, but you can be on the other side of the world doing your own thing and never see them. The travel time alone makes that possible

[latent imp]

it will at most take an endgame player like 1-2 hours to move from one side of the map to the other, its not some hard barrier

if your bored and know theres fresh meat in the low level zones to pick on ppl will go

if anything its even more punishing for some noobs who cant just travel across the map and try somewhere that isnt controlled by the big bad asshole guild 😄

[versed viper]

it takes like half an hour just to go across the tiny map we have in A2

[latent imp]

those are slow lvl 0-10 mounts

the 20 mounts are like 10-20% faster

i would imagine a 50 mount to be atleast like 250-300%

its a big jump up, aswell as having glider mounts to skip navigating some areas ect

if i was literally disallowed from going into some zones that might help but thats not rlly a cool solution or a viable 1

plus id just make a twink 😄

[charred seal]

I just can't see enough bad asshole guilds, playing PvE for six months to level up to 50, and build a node to 5/6, to "own" the other 20,000 players on the server. It sounds like a Monty Python sketch but the other players like a game of Risk will unite against the common enemy. Far more likely case (like a game of Risk) that the one that attacks first, dies first.

[latent imp]

i dont see how servers will hold 20,000 players for an extended period of time in the first place, every day some amount of players quit every game, maybe just a few one day, 1-2 dozen another day, ect the population could half within half a year from natural loss of interest, who is going to replace those lost players first of all

and a tryhard large guild of "i want to win and be the best" players will quit in less of a ratio (if they are actually winning stuff)

so it gets easier over time to snowball the servers death

unless ashes can atleast replenish 30-40% of players lost from leaving on existing servers then itll just dwindle like the steam charts of basically every other game (especially pvp games)

then theyll prob have to do messy mergers ect

which could be good to get these big zergs that dodged eachother to fight again but yeh

the whole themepark infinite progression design seems very counter to the conflict and politics vs nodes

game seems more at home having seasonal wipes with some permanant rewards as u play through each one incentivizing new ppl to get into the fold to keep the population healthy, maybe some special modifiers or events exclusive to some of the seasons

sorry for typing a book lmfao just trying to figure out wtF i threw $250 bucks at

[charred seal]

You are just making my point for me, as to why they are not going to design the game around PvP. If they can grab just 5% of the players that play Minecraft and Roblox, they will get 6M or 7M players easy. Competitive faction PvX, with a lot of varied content, that is what the game is about. Attracting Hardcore PvP players isn't their focus. This is going to be the younger generation's WoW. Old people like us are no longer relevant! 🤣 😢

[frozen peak]

We could do an Olds vs Kids server

[uncut ridge]

Olds would be half dead within a few months

[charred seal]

We are half dead now! I'm a little concerned that I am 3/4 dead if you look at it a certain way.

[lofty dew]

the game is already designed around pvp

caravans are THE way to make money

you need money to prog crafting

you cant do caravans if you cant defend them

[maiden hearth]

You can, just run it at 4 am

[lofty dew]

well sure, some people can degen it hard

[maiden hearth]

Or not have a choice #AsiaLife

[charred seal]

I really do think that people should realize that whatever activity is most rewarding now for any week of Alpha2, is only that way because that is what needs testing, not because it will always be that way.

[lofty dew]

you could say that about any discussion though

'its a work in progress'

'they're still developing it'

im mostly only interested in the game we are currently able to play

[charred seal]

No, point out some other reason why the caravan system is the center of the game. Other than its rewards?

[lofty dew]

I need you to expand that question a little
Is your point that people should only do content for the sake of it?
In a game that naturally has conflict I don't see that happening

progression is a big part of what makes mmos feel good

[charred seal]

I'm just saying that if the only reason you think PvP is the focus of the game, is because we are testing caravans right now, it isn't a very good argument.

[lofty dew]

you need caravans to gain gold in a reasonable time frame
you need gold to progress crafting or to even repair your armor from pve
if you simply dont care about progressing then yeah, caravans dont matter

[charred seal]

But you are only getting a lot of gold from caravans because we are testing it right now.

[lofty dew]

uhh sure if they giga nerfed caravans then the game would change

yes

[maiden hearth]

I don’t really see that happening tho, Steven already said caravan was inspired from AA and in AA packs were the best way to consistently get money and valuable resources for gear progression

[charred seal]

So you think Caravans are going to conjure resources out of thin air like AA? And still have a working economy? I think Caravans are a way of earning money doing organized PvP. In the end though, unlike AA, you will have to use the functioning economy and have a buyer at the other end willing to pay more for locally scarce resources. Right now they are just getting the mechanics of caravans working.

[lofty dew]

to your point yes you can technically still just be a gatherer/mat farmer and use the caravan inflated market to bank gold

but in a sense that still relies on caravans for influx of currency

[charred seal]

Yes, but it is an outflux? of money from the other node. Money isn't being generated.

[lofty dew]

well, money does get generated right, it gets potentially 10x'd from glint

[maiden hearth]

I don’t think AA is a good standard of measure for ANY economy LOL
It’s a P2W game, but if we go off what Steven says, then he does want Caravan to be a central pillar of how we get money.

Maybe not to the extent we have NOW as you said, but I think it’ll be a big part of it.

[maiden hearth]

Also, resources were not conjured out of thin air in AA

You needed to make the packs with grown materials or whatever it required. So there was input. Ashes only have glint for now, I do believe that needs to be changed. I think we should include artisans in the node itself to make packs and then pack runners to take the risks and run it.

[charred seal]

Correct, but it is more nuanced. Here is the fiull entry:

"Caravans are one of the primary methods of ensuring that nodes have the supplies they need to build the buildings they need to build so that they can specialize. They're also the primary method by which players can multiply their wealth, because wealth in our game is acquired through glint, which gets traded in for commodities that can then be either sold directly to the vendor at the node you're at, or can be transported through the caravan system to other nodes for a multiple return; and that I think is going to separate the mice from men in the game with regards to the economic gameplay. Those who can successfully trade those caravans across long distances are going to see obviously a significant amount of wealth more so than their counterparts and be able to control certain markets."

[maiden hearth]

Oh no, don’t get me wrong I definitely don’t think caravans are the ONLY way to make money. But I think it’s the “get rich quick” method and also how most of the standards MMO players with zero idea how to trade/keep up with market needs will make money.

[fluid jolt]

I feel attacked. But correct

[maiden hearth]

Lmaaaao

Don’t put yourself down, you can learn!!!

[fluid jolt]

I have no intention of playing the market game I'm just going to ambush Caravans for ez loot

[charred seal]

I think it is going to be a capitalist venture. You are going to have to invest money to multiply it. I don't think it will "generate it" from scratch. Maybe that is a bit pedantic.

[maiden hearth]

I don’t think it SHOULD generate it from scratch. That’s why I think we should have node artisans / freehold artisans create it. And then the pack runners buy it for a lower price and take the risk of transporting it and selling it for a higher price

I think using glint to buy commodities is kinda odd already tbh and then you just multiply your glint amount. It doesn’t include the artisans, you feel what I mean?

[charred seal]

That is a whole other conversation! 😅

[maiden hearth]

true

But yeah, I do agree right now we don’t have a lot of systems fleshed out. Maybe in the future there will be better and more systems to make money. But I am enjoying caravans and what they stand for and they encourage PvP is how I see ‘em.

Cant wait for open oceans too, I think that’ll open a much wider variety of things!

[charred seal]

I think there are going to be a whole lot of ways to make money, and they are all going to be more or less lucrative, depending on the risk involved. Obviously running caravans over long distances can be most profitable, but they must also involve the most risk. You may prefer to run around gathering, hitting a PvE dungeon/raid, raiding caravans, craft stuff, or sailing the seas. but I don't think there will be a particular "Focus".

[maiden hearth]

That’s fair, it is a sandbox game after all.

[charred seal]

If you are going to run caravans, just don't steal the Great Khan's silkworms...💀

[fluid jolt]

Y'all play a risky game running caravans when I'm out on the lonely roads

https://tenor.com/view/lael-gif-19132950

[maiden hearth]

Can I pay a toll

[fluid jolt]

Sure 3g

It's my entire game plan right now is to gank caravans

[maiden hearth]

Fee Fi Fo Fom

[fluid jolt]

The back roads are far too safe right now

Just need a band of merry men to go with me

I'll only stop when I find the six fingered man

[maiden hearth]

The question is, do you RP stop them before you attack, or do you just attack.

[fluid jolt]

I just attack

[maiden hearth]

Are you honorable bandits, or just bandits.

[fluid jolt]

I'm the lowest of low

I'll go red if need be

Scourge of the wastes

[maiden hearth]

I look forward to seeing your adventures

[fluid jolt]

😂 if you see me in town rattling a penny cup you know I got beat

On the other hand if you see people in town QQing..... I'm on the hunt

[maiden hearth]

Eohym and his band of Merry men.

[fluid jolt]

Every game needs it's villain

Character name will be "Gnoll" the toll troll

I'm surprised how safe caravans have been thus far

[maiden hearth]

Wym lmao, I’ve been ganked like 10 times

[fluid jolt]

Successfully? 🤔

Maybe Castus is just too safe

[maiden hearth]

I only lost once, I have a half epic half heroic caravan lol

Oh nooo, you’re on my server

[fluid jolt]

Hot damn that's a heist that I need a crew of.... Eleven.. for

[maiden hearth]

Eohym’s 11

[fluid jolt]

This isn't even my final form!

Once rogue is out...

Stabby stabby

[maiden hearth]

Excited to see your adventures this weekend

[fluid jolt]

I've been watching too many westerns and heist movies

I'm working all weekend 😭

[maiden hearth]

.> how are you gonna gank caravans??

[fluid jolt]

But my toon is near darangak estates with a corruption of 6 rn

Ikr!

[maiden hearth]

Oh god lmao

[fluid jolt]

Oh well

Can't wait to see who the famous and infamous players become on the servers as time progresses

Now I want to rewatch mad season

https://youtu.be/e0Xp96z6IxE

[mint galleon]

hell ya

[tight kayak]

Change iron aura to be either additive so it doesnt give .8% and actually 2% or increase 2% to like 5-10% and/or make radius bigger than 10m and more like 30-40m

maybe change iron aura to something that gives more CC immunity to some degree either to just tank or to party?

Courage changes very nice

[lofty dew]

a 10% damage reduction aura would be like the most powerful aura ive ever seen in any video game

3-4% is reasonable

[fathom bridge]

wow has more than that

[fathom bridge]

and with the cd

it's 12

[lofty dew]

....?

yeah thats a 3 min cooldown

that lasts 8 seconds

[pseudo whale]

i hope i become like one of these legends fr

need to start working on my pvp

[vernal trench]

Anyone know if we will get a rogue ability walkthrough similar to the other archetypes or they will just release it sometime after Dec 20th?

[mild cloud]

I'm sure they will want to showcase it

[frail stirrup]

so tomo will be my first time playing the game as i just purchased yesterday, are the warlock and conjurer classes as good as they sound?

[fathom bridge]

for my fellow tanks, did intrepid communicate on if they'll "release" the mitigation formulas down the line
as in what's additive vs multiplicative, how blocking works exactly etc

[tight kayak]

Right now its 2% which gets reduced cause of diminishing returns. so its like 0.8

[lofty dew]

yep

[tight kayak]

and its 10m, which isnt really feasable or usefull in this game atm

people basicly gotta hug u almost for it to be in effect

[mint galleon]

Idk they arent in the game

[lofty dew]

10m is definitely smol

[tight kayak]

make it 30-40m and either give it a high amount with deminishng returns so its less useless on tanks and more on party or make it a flat 3-5%

its group focused so higher mitigation should be obvious

atleast imo

but again my opinion might heavly change once game is back up and i can test to fight vs legendary people

to see how tank feels after the courage changes

but iron aura def need a change to some decree

larger range and either flat 2% or more or 5-10% with deminishing returns

[waxen kindle]

Curious of the tank mitigation formula myself for blocking specifically

[meager elm]

anyone know why rogue has been delayed so many times?

[grave jungle]

Greatness takes time to cook

[meager elm]

youd think thered be atleast a showcase by now

[versed viper]

we only just got the Bard showcase

besides the reasons why Rogue and Summoner are taking a while is they have more complicated mechanics to work out - stealth and pet AI are a bit more complicated than the current archetypes

[strong pasture]

Warlock is a combination of classes using a secondary class augment. Those won't be out until Phase 3

Conjurer is based on Summoner (I think) and Summoner hasn't been added into the game as of yet.

The next class to come out relatively soon ™️ will be the Rogue class. That is slated to release sometime after the December 20th wipe.

[broken pulsar]

Stealth? You mean like the ranger ability stealth that's already in the game?

[mint slate]

I think alot people are wanting rogue to have I don't exist you can't touch me stealth but I believe Steven has said they want stealth to still have counters and I remember a quote along the lines of 'a good player will still be able to spot them' which leads me to believe rogue stealth will be similar to rangers camoflauge and if that's the stealth effect visuals for rogue I have no issue with that but I am opposed to the god mode stealth people are wanting

[warm hemlock]

as a rogue main, i dont want "you cant touch me" stealth

rogue is far more then its inherent ability. Ill be looking for DOT management, escapes and burst

[mint slate]

Burst I expect to be one rogues big powers and expect mobility and stealth to maybe be altered version but similar basis to what ranger works off now if you've messed around with a ranger

[warm hemlock]

I have yes tho we know rogues get true stealth in comparison. We will just have to wait and see what they come up with

[mint slate]

I'm not much a rogue player but love the conversation, what do you see being different between true stealth (I'm not familiar with the exact definition here) and the transparent effect that is ranger stealth? I expect use and cool down etc to be different but do you see visuals being different?

[warm hemlock]

I would expect simply that the range in which you see the mirage is longer. I.e you have to be say within 5metres to see them rather then 20m for example

My most best used example I always come to is Planetside 2's "Infiltrator" class

Iv always found this stealth to be the best stealth as its fair. Movement creates a "shimmer" that can be seen from further away

[mint slate]

Oh yeah that I'm fine with, rogue should have harder to detect stealth then rangers do and a shorter range to see mirage would be a good way to handle that, but I do like the transparent mirage as stealths visual rather then visual just not existing

[median pewter]

The problem is any visual at all is exploitable client side by just swapping image files

[warm hemlock]

Thats a dev issue though

and up to them to sort out

[versed viper]

No that’s camouflage. Only rogue will have true stealth.

[warm hemlock]

The other option is to simply have a short CD on pure stealth like ESO's nightblade

like 3-5s

but that options always sucks

[mint slate]

Heard eso was changing it again so it stayed 'forever' like it used to but only when staying still and consuming resources when moving.. so maybe similar could be done here where only destealth moves show you when stationary but mirage shows when moving

[warm hemlock]

yeh its changed, you also cant gain resources whilst in stealth

[mint slate]

Oh they changed that part, I know early testing state resources would regen when stationary which was broken and dumb

[warm hemlock]

Nightblade has been gutted for its stealth since its in inception on release. Because from the beginning it was WAYYY too overpowered.

I dont want that for Ashes rogue, so I say go with an "enhanced" version of Rangers cloak

its fair, balanced and most importantly, counterable

Rogues should never have permacloack.
Stealth should always be something you weave in combat

Otherwise its just a gank class

and they never last in the patch notes

[mint slate]

If handled right it can be fun, I used hide in forts in cyrodil stealths and use local chat to alert people I was in there and gave them content sweeping fort trying find where I was hiding but these days allowing any fun like that is also going to heavily be abused (which I think some people are already seeking) so I wish intrepid luck trying find the balance

[median pewter]

I kinda hate that "rogue" in MMOs has become synonomous with "invisibility". They can just be high dodge, spiky damage, maneuverable/fast

[mint galleon]

To be fair they are usually not used in large group pvp

Outside of scouts and the like because they just cant survive in large fights

[warm hemlock]

Bro thats where the most fun is is in large group pvp!

[mint galleon]

And their burst is negated by any cleric paying attention

Or healer

[warm hemlock]

always enjoyed my nightblade the most when its 40v40 in cyrodiil

[mint galleon]

The issue is getting into melee range

[median pewter]

You literally just described every other class as well... except that it's harder to mitigate burst damage than a consistent stream of damage.

[mint galleon]

Thats when you pop your big defensive cooldowns

To deal with rogues

Than they tucker themselves out and die

[median pewter]

So... they aren't good because you have to use your best cooldowns to survive against them?

[mint galleon]

Though my experience is largely from archeage where one if the most popular classes was darkrunner

And wow bgs

[mint galleon]

No they are great in certain situations

Just they are usually one of the most popular solo pvp classes

So most players are just used to dealing with them

Least pvp folks

[median pewter]

They're the most popular solo PVP class because they can ignore players stronger than them, and prey on players they know they can beat

[mint galleon]

Cant say ive ever seen a rogue wreak havoc on a group

[median pewter]

Because they're invisible until they don't want to be

[mint galleon]

That knew what it was doing

I primarily play healers

And its always hilarious just watching a rogue style class get its burst outhealed

Ranged burst dps is scarier to me than a melee

Cus the moment the rogue gets in that close he will get stunlocked to shit by everyone else whos near me

Melee dps has always struggled in large group content unless it has a dedicated pocket healer

[median pewter]

And what about the rogue that sneaks around and attacks the healer(s) in the back when the rest of the party engages an enemy group?

[mint galleon]

Your ranged dps sticks with your healers typically

And you all typically have at least 1 stun

If it was a group of rogues sure

Ive just spent almost a decade bullying rogues as a healer so ive never been bothered with them

At least in group content

[median pewter]

The situations you've described rogues being bad in are almost exclusively if your group outnumbers the enemy group (i.e. solo rogue attacking your group, your group has more people)

You've never gotten just stunlocked and killed because each member of your group was busy with someone/thing else?

[mint galleon]

Im usually the shotcaller or you have a ranged dps as shotcaller

[median pewter]

Got it, so your group always just perfectly turns their back on whatever they're doing when a rogue pops up, and it's never been a problem 👍

[mint galleon]

But im talking bout 20-30+ man groups

[mint galleon]

I dont sit out in the open? I stick with my group?

Are you expecting a cleric to sit outside the range of his healing spells

Or be all on their own

[median pewter]

So you run up where the ranged DPS can target the healer?

[mint galleon]

If i need to sure

I just heal myself

But thankfully my keyboard has keys bound to the movement of my character