#Normalize Apep's perks through mana, not through time

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sonic flint
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Placing things on timers make them quite unbalanced. Apep's recent change made him extremely stronger than he was before, especially in 2v2. His design was, as were many masters', based on mana which is the fundamental unit of the game upon which everything is balanced.

Mana generation is slower in 2v2, making timers far more powerful.

Compared to a cheap/medium cycle of 1-2-2-2-2-3-4 previously, the new timer is in 2v2 about 60% stronger for perk 1 and 36% stronger for perk 3. For 1v1, this 16-cost cycle means his perk 1 is still stronger by about 40%, and his perk 3 is the same.

Even with the cheapest possible 11-mana deck (which was really bad), his perk 1 is currently way stronger than before.

Make his perk the following, to balance it for any deck type and any game mode:

For every 20 mana spent, add a random free 2-cost/4-cost card to the top of your deck

Can be more or less than 20, now you can balance it around mana, the real unit in this game, rather than through indirect things like cycle or time

*EDIT: Different idea from Destian, for 20 mana gained over time after having played your free card, add a card. Now there is no way to exploit it, this works exactly like a timer, but is based on mana as its unit and not on time.

For every 20 mana gained, add a random free 2-cost/4-cost card to the top of your deck

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Problems in different approaches

(1) Cycle based: forces down a cheap decktype

(2) Timer based: unbalanced 1v1 versus 2v2, unbalanced strength throughout a match, early/mid/late game have different dynamics, currently far too strong

(3) Mana based: allows bursts of cards to be played

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raw mist
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Making it be mana spent keeps the "you have to play (cycle) your deck in order to get use of the perks" instead of just being able to wait for it. I feel like that's a great suggestion to satisfy their need of wanting to get rid of cycling strength, while keeping the old flavor of forcing you to play to get the value out of the perks, but this time with a benefit of not having to choose the cheapest cards to get there the fastest.

velvet moss
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for each x mana spend give a discount of x mana

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the more you spend, the more you save!

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@cinder copper

wary prism
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mans creating entire spreadsheets for 1/5th of a digital snake

desert mauve
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The real question is: should all time-based masters be using the mana spent mechanic instead?

desert mauve
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We discussed this in general and determined that going by mana generated (even if it was floated) is preferable.

raw mist
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Why do you prefer not being able to slightly control when you are getting the perk?

naive vector
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I believe that timers are used because they are easier to balance and understand, currently BD is focused on simplifying most things

sonic flint
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All of the timers are inherently unbalanced between 1v1 and 2v2, unfortunately

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unless they make every master based on timers DerpPuff

desert mauve
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It’s a shame because I understand BD wants to keep the game as simple and easy to understand as humanly possible, but as Pom said, going by time definitely creates issues. I think they could explain mana gen as a keyword well enough to work, though.

sonic flint
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reposting this here so it doesnt get lost in general lol

[3:01 PM]Pom: yeah it's more of an extra fodder now than something you can reliably use
[3:02 PM]Pom: sooo ive been thinking about the balance of 1v1 versus 2v2, how timers and mana affect it, from the perspective of how games actually play out
[3:02 PM]Pom: i can better explain what i mean in 1v1 by talking about 2v2
[3:03 PM]Pom: 2v2 has far more units on the field, far more chip damage all over, more ability from each team to handle threats and situations, there's more bridge exchanges of control
[3:03 PM]Pom: 1v1 is more polarized, decks cant have all the tools needed, you need to focus on a strong idea and make it work
[3:04 PM]Pom: i'd say lower cost units are a bit more important in 1v1, because this allows you to win more of the small bridge brawls over time, on every cycle
[3:04 PM]Pom: in 2v2s, the 2-cost cards quickly get overwhelmed by the longer-lasting presences, and stronger, 3- and 4-cost cards
[3:05 PM]Pom: theeerefore, apep's timer perk being weaker in 1v1 than in 2v2 sort of is balanced due to the nature of the gameplay

fervent ferry
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This has some serious issues with mana return mechanics and mana freeze tho.

sonic flint
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The mana return would interact the same way as the old cycle-based perks would: more mana means more perks. But now this concept would apply to any type of deck.

Mana freeze would not be an issue if his perk were based on mana generation and not mana spent, if we consider "unfreezing" mana as "mana gain"

desert mauve
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I figured it might be a bit of a PITA to implement, but I feel like this will save so much headache in the long run as it balances time distributed perks regardless of mode.

carmine forge
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Nice work but i predict that after seeings Apeps' dominance this season the likely nerf will just be slightly increased timers as it will be the easiest change, and BD will not want to waste the work they put into timers already.

wary prism
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i feel like this topic is almost distracting in a sense, taking time away from balancing units which are much more shiny and noticeable to newer players.

sonic flint
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They greatly buffed one of the best masters in the game with a questionable system, it highly affects medium and top level play. We're allowed to discuss more mathematically sound alternatives, it's not actively draining dev resources. You're free to suggest what other balance changes you'd like to see.

wind stump
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mana freeze does not effect 0 cost card on timer...

fervent ferry
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Its not about apep being strong

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Its about if basing it on mana gain or spending is better than based on timer

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Both can be too strong or too weak by having the wrong numbers, so apep being strong atm is kinda irrelevant

wind stump
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why dont you make his perks cost mana?

fervent ferry
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Because having something that is bad for the situation/match costing mana is very feelsbad

wind stump
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was not idea to remove all 0 cost cards/spells

wind stump
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you gamble you win or you lose

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you can not make gamble win/win

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you did.. but yeaaaa

fervent ferry
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Which is why we made it less gambling, by making it change.

wind stump
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it makes it op af

raw mist
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Sure you can when it comes to perks. But you just need to make sure it's small win/bigger win

wind stump
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when gambling is rigged its called cheating

fervent ferry
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So we would have to balance it, but one option is lengthen the timer.

fervent ferry
raw mist
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Who wants to have a perk that's straight up shit when you reach it

wind stump
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bra dakka was 0 and was not even as close effective as apep perks

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same with new volco bridge burn

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1 mana 4 cost card is shiet?

raw mist
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I'd honestly put them back to 0 mana and if needed, nerf them, just so you don't have a card that pops into your hand and screws up your play because you have to play 1 mana to get rid of it at a bad moment.

wind stump
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how?

fervent ferry
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ghost against swarm

wind stump
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dakka vs swarm

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😄

fervent ferry
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Yes, but you asked

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I answered

wind stump
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same situation

fervent ferry
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Yes, and I am not a big fan of either

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We did the dakka thing because ratbo was too stong, and he has so few levers to change

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Dakka 1 cost being feelsbad is hardly an argument to make apep perks feelsbad

wind stump
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i agree , but you have to have some base when it comes to those stuff... coz 1 season some thing is strong , it does not mean it will be next one

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ratbo's dakka was nerfed after battle monkey TTT meta when TTT was bugged af

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dakka went from 0 to 1 for no reason.. but hey i guess it was bit to strong at that time

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apep is in meta for years

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1st real change is buff

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c mon

fervent ferry
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An unintended buff, but you are straying VERY far from the topic, the question here is not if apep is strong, and not even how to balance him

wind stump
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bra every 25 sec timer you had was broken

fervent ferry
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Its if mana gain/loss is a better tool to use than time

wind stump
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tell me 1 25 sec timer that was not op

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?

fervent ferry
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Irreevant nikola

wind stump
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realy relavent

fervent ferry
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You can increase time to balance that

wind stump
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you had same problem in past

fervent ferry
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That is not what this suggestion is about at all

wind stump
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topic is "Normalize Apep's perks through mana, not through time"

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so yea i think i am on point

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1 mana perks

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are way to do it

fervent ferry
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No you really are not.

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Read the actual first post

wind stump
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title of post is Normalize Apep's perks through mana, not through time

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that is point

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thats 1st post

fervent ferry
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read the first post.....

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Not just the title

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Its about balancing it around gaining mana, or spending mana through other cards, not on giving it a manacost

wind stump
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so we will ignore "Normalize Apep's perks through mana, not through time" and read part that suits you?

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c mon now

sonic flint
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Oh btw, for reference, some approximative numbers to compare the strength of the systems, for a timer to be as strong as an old 16-mana cycle, the timers would have to be about:

In 1v1, perk 1 (0:40 to 3:20) should be on a 33 seconds timer
In 1v1, perk 3 (3:20 and up) should be on a 24 seconds timer

In 2v2, perk 1 (0:40 to 3:20) should be on a 42 seconds timer
In 2v2, perk 3 (3:20 and up) should be on a 34 seconds timer

From how these cards often have a bigger impact in 1v1, especially perk 1, I'd suggest the timers (or timer) be a bit more on the 1v1 balance side. A blanket 30 seconds for each timer would create a stronger perk 1 but a weaker perk 3.

fervent ferry
wind stump
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no i did not

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gl with making timets for every mode

fervent ferry
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okay, well, lets agree to disagree on that one...

wind stump
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1 mana perks are way to do it

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and Normalize Apep's perks through mana, not through time means that

fervent ferry
sonic flint
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Yeah

raw mist
sonic flint
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I compare the average strength of a timer vs the mana regeneration from 0:40 to 3:19 for perk 1, and from 3:20 onward for perk 3, since that's the time periods where those perks are most meaningful / most affected

fervent ferry
wind stump
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"old 16-mana cycle" where did you get that number bro?

fervent ferry
sonic flint
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oh, I wasn't aware

fervent ferry
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Its new 😄

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I think that was last patch?

wind stump
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did you take to account card holding and rotating with 6 ?

fervent ferry
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Or have we not done that yet? I at least made it at some point XD

sonic flint
# wind stump "old 16-mana cycle" where did you get that number bro?

Compared to a cheap/medium cycle of 1-2-2-2-2-3-4 previously

I can change the cost of the cycle in the spreadsheet too, that's how I got numbers for 12 mana also, which is getting ridiculous (oops, when i thought of that reaching way too low, i thought of a 10-card play, not a 7-card cycle, i misjudged here)

wind stump
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LOL

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did you saw my decks last 2 seasons?

wary prism
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no

wind stump
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1-1-1-1-2-2-2-3-4-6

wary prism
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6 being rr

wind stump
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yeap

wary prism
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classic

wind stump
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i can do it with 7 now

wary prism
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settsu

wind stump
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but that does not mean deck cost is waht it shows

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coz i rotate with way less than some one will assume

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you can do it with any master

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apep is way to go now

wary prism
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okay i think pom is actually trying to help here so im gonna stop posting off topic

wind stump
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you can not assume this "old 16-mana cycle" and say "this is how to balance"...

sonic flint
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Chill, you're so aggravating

wind stump
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hi

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that is not agressive

fervent ferry
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If anything I would prefer linking it to passive mana gained, to get around all mana generators making things funky. Altho it might be somewhat harder to communicate,

wind stump
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its facts

sonic flint
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aggravating =/= aggressive

e: And yes it is aggressive, like every exchange with you. There are ways to approach discourse without constantly taking jabs at the other. I wrote the reasoning of my analysis in my premise. You could calmly reply to that rather than use a dismissing tone that basically calls the other stupid. You could say "I don't think you basing this on a 16-mana cycle is reasonable, since I've been running cycle decks much cheaper than that. It would make more sense to base the balance on this."

Plus what are you even saying, "say "this is how to balance"". What does it matter how fast a cycle is? No matter how fast or slow the cycles are, I was only offering a generic comparison of strength. What you're bringing up has zero impact on the idea of basing his perks on mana rather than time.

wind stump
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aww i miss read

fervent ferry
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The deck people used in the past is somewhat irrelevant, as that has changed over time anyways, and because you can play a more proper deck now anyways, its more about what is good for the current setup, which will not be a 1 to 1 translation

wary prism
sonic flint
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That's why I chose this as an example, I based the premises of this discussion on the sort of modern deck I find myself playing, including both the lower end of a cycle cost, and more regular 3-4 cost cards within in too

fervent ferry
sonic flint
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Going onto extremes wouldn't have done much good

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harder to communicate
Yeah that was a big issue I could see

wind stump
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Still timer based perks are not way to balance game imo.. you have som many other tools to do it. Biggest problem when it comes to MM balnce they dont have system of values like for exple "1 mana 100HP 1 range 10dps ms 4" and than work from there.

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they are guessing how to for most part

wary prism
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is harder to communicate in reference to the perks description

sonic flint
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That's why it's good to follow "mana" as the fundamental building piece of the game, imo, rather than split systems some into mana, some into "time"

fervent ferry
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I 100% think timer based perks are fine and can totally work, but I am not opposed to basing it on mana gain or spending or whatever.

wary prism
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i think pom did alot of good work with that chart

raw mist
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What are the timers for mana speedup again?

sonic flint
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We've had morellia as an example of timer-based perks, there's probably a lot to learn from how this has worked, which aspects of it are good, which didn't work so well

fervent ferry
wind stump
sonic flint
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I'd love to have actual numbers for the mana gains haha

raw mist
fervent ferry
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aren't they on the wiki?

sonic flint
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this is what i had from the wiki

image.png
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1v1 on the left, 2v2 on the right

wary prism
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this would effect milloweens golem

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in a good way

fervent ferry
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One of the problems of basing it on mana, is that you push the powerspike further to the end, so I would not want it to be done on all masters, different masters having different powerspikes is a good thing

sonic flint
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I was gonna say, timers are strong early on but dry up over time

wind stump
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but that's why you have deck building

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dif. decks should spike at dif. times

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not masters

wary prism
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why not both

fervent ferry
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I don't see why masters should not spike at different times

raw mist
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What about putting it on a timer, and then lowering the timer every 40s (so it follows the mana regen speedup), would that be too confusing?

E.g. 30s timer, -1s every 40s

fervent ferry
raw mist
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Yes, but easier to explain

wary prism
sonic flint
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Well that's up to how you want Apep to scale. He used to speed up very much over time with mana regen, but now he instead has a super strong early game

raw mist
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Since you don't even explain the managain anywhere in the game itself...

wind stump
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exepct R3kt

fervent ferry
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rawaw?

wary prism
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no ravager spikes on perk one like no other

wind stump
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so it is deck based

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all masters spike on perk 3

sonic flint
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I like masters having different power spike timings, it affects how you approach games, and master choices especially in 2v2

fervent ferry
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All masters have a spike at every perk sure, but the perks are not all equally strong, and have different distributions

wind stump
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lets see

fervent ferry
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So no, the masters do not al spike at the same time, as you need to compare them to each other, not to themselves

wary prism
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just because they all gradually get stronger doesnt mean spikes

wind stump
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SB perk 3 he spikes , settsu.. perk 3 , apep perk 3 , morellia... KP? huh mord?

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see

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all perk 3

wary prism
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whats why to use the word spike

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mord tecnically spikes at 1

wind stump
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its decks that makes em rush or controll

wary prism
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anyways

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off topic

wind stump
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tahts the problem with Apep , he is master that can play what ever deck you want right now..

raw mist
wind stump
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pew...... pew...... to ratatatatatatattat

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there

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i paint it for you

wary prism
wind stump
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but you lose sec he hits perk 3

wary prism
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perk 2 spikes to have strongest ranged units on your side

raw mist
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Yeah because you turn your spike into a win more, the spike is still perk 2

wind stump
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and starts pew pew the shit out if mid range units you have

fervent ferry
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Its not about when a master is at his strongest, but that masters at the same amount of perks are still notequaly strong, because they rely more or rely less on the perks they have gotten or have not gotten yet

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Ravager for example is superweak after his perk 1 is dead, basically until perk 3 has been gained, so in between other masters are stronger

wind stump
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again i will say it you need some type of scale "1 mana is this and this and this" so you can do proper balance... time and time again you prove that scale does not exist

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and balance is jsut guess work

wary prism
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wtf

wind stump
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if i ask you what is base that 1 mana should give

fervent ferry
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I am not sure how what I said made you say that

wind stump
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what is answer

fervent ferry
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There is none, thats never been a secret, but I don't see how that is related to what I said

wind stump
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minion and spell

wind stump
sonic flint
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So it's kind of up to what the devs want Apep to be. Keep timers for him to be an early game control brute, or make them scale with mana gains for him to slowly gain power over the course of the match

fervent ferry
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I will bring it up with the main designing dwarf, but I do expect us to try balancing him with longer timers first, just for communications reasons alone, but also simplicity in the change XD

wary prism
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what does the communications refer to?

wind stump
wary prism
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like the changelog

fervent ferry
wind stump
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i am not hating , all i am trying to say is you can make your job way ezer

wary prism
wary prism
wind stump
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what did i demand?

wary prism
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uh nothing it just came off that way

wind stump
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i asked simple question and make suggestion that guessing "what if" will just make it worse

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and we saw that time and time again

wary prism
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well how else do you explore the unexplored

wind stump
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hey its not my game i am not one getting payed for it... way devs will spend their productive time is their thing and its on who ever owns beta dwarf to say if they are doing it good or bad

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if they are making money

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well

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go for it

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as player i am just stating what i dont like

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simple as that

fervent ferry
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I personally think that having a 1 mana = these stats kinda doesn't work for minion masters, the different masters, different abilities, and combinations of minions kinda makes it al fall apart

wind stump
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i think having some type of order would make your job ezer

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i am not saying you should follow that 100%

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but it will give you room to work with

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i am sure at taht

wary prism
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that kind of standard is like inhibiting the creative process

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my 2 cent

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i think its more about the situations you can create in game

fervent ferry
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I definitely think such setups can work for games, but a lot better in more traditional card games. at least imo

wind stump
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fot most part 1 mana is 100 hp 10 dps 3 range with 4 ms.. aldy more than 50% of units follow that rule

wary prism
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but you arent considering speccial effect like doplimancer costs more because he hypnotises

wind stump
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with spells its bit harder but i was always taking fire ball as base coz its one of the OG spells

wind stump
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not 600

wary prism
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so that negates your standard

wind stump
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again you have to fact in rarety

wary prism
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you want to introduce

wind stump
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so legendary card will feel like legendary

wary prism
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and reinforced the fact they have a power standard for mana costs

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already in place

fervent ferry
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Well, rarity is definitely not going to be used in balance -_-

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That would be really bad

wind stump
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but it sells cards

wary prism
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omg

wind stump
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you dont need to re inv. hot watter

wary prism
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well i like mm because it different then other games

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too many cookie cutter games so

wind stump
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MM has by far the best monetization

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imo i think they can get bit more out of game

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i said IMO

wary prism
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well

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things take time

wind stump
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they are giving way to much

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and i am saying that as a player

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i dont have any stakes in BD or any interest what so ever

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just being honest

cinder copper
desert mauve
desert mauve
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Obviously, balance as you will, but it feels like it’s always going to be an annoyance. You could create a keyword for mana generation where mousing over it brings up text “You generate a mana every time your mana bar would increase, even if it’s full or mana frozen, not including mana-generating abilities.”

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(feel free to use that verbiage if it helps)

naive vector
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the problem is that as an example volco that needs a slightly heavier deck and should have a timer instead of a cycle makes him a very bad master in 1x1 (removing the limitation of not attacking aerials) on the other side you there is millo that has a short timer and that makes it fit in several decks and does not have a disadvantage.
This is not a timer problem.

desert mauve
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The problem is that, without going by mana gen, there will always be a massive discrepancy in power levels between masters in 1v1 vs. 2v2.

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At its core, the game must be balanced around the idea that a master (in this case, Apep) will be gaining X mana advantage as his perk per Y mana available to the master and their opponent(s).

fervent ferry
desert mauve
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But that would at least standardize it between 1v1 and 2v2, unless I'm missing something (which I could be)?

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Essentially, Apep will get X mana discounted for every Y mana made available to him and the opponent(s).

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As opposed to X mana discounted for every Y seconds, as the different mana gen rate in 1v1 vs. 2v2 changes the value of those seconds.

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(again, there could be something I'm missing here)

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Just to fudge numbers, if Apep gets 2 free mana every 10 mana available to a 2v2 match, that's a much bigger advantage than getting 2 free mana vs. the, say 20, mana that was available in a 1v1 in the same interval.

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The alternative is to have perks pop on different timers in 1v1 vs. 2v2, though explaining that to players is likewise going to be a pain.

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Ultimately, I'm sure you'll figure it out. You folks work so much harder on this game than the many AAA devs that have earned my ire over the years.

naive vector
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The idea of having this related to mana expenditure is cool, but balancing this will be extremely chaotic and I don't see a problem with a master performing better in a game mode than another, what cannot happen is the master being broken, an increase in the conometer is ideal for this.
This situation is the same as when KP was modified, I don't see the need for such big changes before testing simpler things.

desert mauve
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It's not expenditure, though, but the amount of mana that would've ticked in normally through mana generation. That's the game's REAL timer, and while I agree that it'll be fine so long as they're not broken, it's going to create a balancing nightmare in the long run as any time-based master will always be gaining more value in 2v2 due to the ratio of mana generated vs. perks given. In 2v2, your opponents will always have less mana to deal with those perks than they would in a 1v1 match.

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I suppose they could surreptitiously tie time-based perks to mana regen by having them start at different numbers of seconds in 1v1 and 2v2 and then arrive quicker as the mana regen rate increases throughout a the match, thereby making them the same in 1v1 and 2v2 without any complicated explanations that will very likely confuse new players (and some old ones).

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Honestly, that might be the butt-fugly answer.

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"Add a random card to the top of your deck at regular intervals, arriving faster as the match progresses."

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Why does it happen more slowly in 2v2? Because resources are slower in 2v2 anyway.

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Again, I could be off base here. I'm probably making it a bigger deal than it is.

sonic flint
# sonic flint reposting this here so it doesnt get lost in general lol [3:01 PM]Pom: yeah it...

Had you read my thought dump here? This might be the key to attenuate the difference between 1v1 and 2v2. There's generally stronger units present on the board and more chip damage going around in 2v2, the game dynamics encourage slightly stronger minions to be used, who sorta handle these cheap perks more easily. Even though those perks happen more often per unit of mana in 2v2, they're not as impactful individually as in 1v1. This concept of course doesn't entirely excuse the 20% to 40% slower mana regen, but it reduces the gap.

desert mauve
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I guess they’ll see how it pans out in Apep’s win rate in 1s vs. 2s.

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All I know is that I feel like I’m not a good enough player to be winning as easily as I do in 2v2s with Apep.

sonic flint
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Here's another interesting comparison. How little mana would a full cycle have required to get perks as fast as you do now? (2v2, 25 seconds timer)

image.png
sonic flint
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final version, this has pretty much run its course until further update

image.png
graceful yarrow
fervent ferry
graceful yarrow
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I tried the same decks with APEP and other masters, it is quite obvious XD

fervent ferry
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But that is still not related to this suggestion AT ALL

graceful yarrow
fervent ferry
desert mauve
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The change overall makes Apep much more fun, IMO, but there’s no way a scrub like me should be doing that well with him. 😉

sonic flint
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2v2 with 16-cost cycle vs 30-second timer

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1v1 with 13-cost cycle vs 30-second timer

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graceful yarrow
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I think it is in a better condition now , though the bug with simulaxxx still exists

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APEP is definitely stronger than before in terms of duos

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as for solo, even though your chart cannot show it. there are things more than mana, say what cards you can get every cycle. Players basically don't need to worry about getting a ghost against non-big dude deck any more

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mana aside, random units for each cycle are way stronger than fixed "random units" you get

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(still, when Ares lost, it was not because of APEP at all; and remember to @cinder copper when you bombard him next time, thanks in advance) @sonic flint

sonic flint
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yeah the fact that perks now offer a rotating selection of cards is so damn good, along with his new auto-attack

fervent ferry
wind stump
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btw why does Apep still shows when you are holding 4+ cards? does not make much sense...

fervent ferry
graceful yarrow
cinder copper
graceful yarrow