[WS] Damage rebalance

[paper nymph]

White Stars suffer greatly from modules and mechanics that allow battleships to be destroyed extremely wuickly, sometimes within a single hit or mere hours of game time. Modules such as Destiny, Vengeance, Leap and Chain Ray do catastrophic amounts of damage extremely quickly at high levels (12-15). This issue is enhanced by mods like barrier and bond, essentially cutting off any escape options for 6-8h - enough time to guarantee a kill. This in turn makes alpha shield in perticular the only viable shield module in WS, since only it allows a battleship to survive more than one hit, and the only counter to attacks with these modules.

As it seems, a rebalance for damage sources and counters is necessary to make WS engagements interesting again. Perhaps Barrier/Bond deserve rebalances as well, but that is a different topic.

Tldr; There's too many one-hit kill damage sources and they need to be nerfed.

[unborn fulcrum]

I think nerfing these is necessary but can’t be done without an alpha nerf or all other shield buff at the same time

[amber fractal]

cant really add much to it. I personally would like to see more ghost/invisibility mechanic, like in certain cerberuses

maybe as an alpha rework or stg

[green ruin]

Alpha tele is so common purely bc barrier wont let you even go in so you have to tele and you'll always die tele'ing unless you alpha

[paper nymph]

Ye but in general... You get lept at, you gotta evade or alpha. Destiny: einter not get close or use alpha. Etc

Alpha is only essential because everything kills you so quickly

[green ruin]

Veng: dont let it happen or alpha

[paper nymph]

exactly

[green ruin]

The entirety of veng counterplay is yanking alpha out

[paper nymph]

Would be nice if there was more than one way to counter that stuff

[amber fractal]

I see more problem on shield part🤔 existing ones either way too strong( ) or so specific, they are useless in most case( ).
I think its best if the whole shield category is drastically changed.

[green ruin]

Problem is- how

[amber fractal]

(I would give each shield a "role". alpha is invisible, regen is a quick to recharge, Blast actually defends agaist AOE.

the core idea there is really good but got abandoned halfway

[unborn fulcrum]

Even without one hits. Even with barrier damage who would leap in with regen or omega or mirror? You’d be dead in an hour or two from guns. Alpha gives you hours to be a fly in the ointment

[amber fractal]

you cant move with one, other makes you fast.

[paper nymph]

yes that's why guns need rebalancing too

imo

It needs to take longer and be more difficult to kill someone

[amber fractal]

but there still should be a way to counter alpha combos. okay its strongest but have some number on it. high enough to withstand anything, not just untouchable

[paper nymph]

maybe as a counterbalance you could increase death timeout

[lilac path]

Obviously this need to come hand in hand with alpha nerf

Less damage is direct and simple

maybe some “weapon reload time”? You can shoot for one hour then you get a 30m cooldown for example?

[unborn fulcrum]

Should do that anyway. Dying should never be rewarded

[amber fractal]

either have all DMG and shield as numbers and balance it or have each DMG source a clear and perfect counter.
not just simply alpha stops everything and add teleport for bond counter.

[dim thistle]

what if batterie pierce alpha, make the gun usefull somehow

[amber fractal]

-# battery is useless cus of insane target switch delay 2s

[dim thistle]

still possible to play arround better then having it dead as decoy in our arsenals .....

[green ruin]

I hate these dumb patches of "make x go through alpha"

Its so not in the style of this game its just unrealistic

[lilac path]

I’m not gonna say “drones and drockets go through barriers”

Or that u can actually tp into a barrier

I like those. Maybe one weapon specialized for one shield may not make sense, but lots of other stuff don’t make sense

[dim thistle]

there's nothing what makes the gun become usefully, technically it could have its moments IF SO
otherwhise its just as dead as dart and laser 🫠

maybe the og thread from Cap about emp makes sense aswell to actually counter alphas

[dim thistle]

has to giggle last week. you know whats unrealistic,
wich Dev crates RL new leap mechanic + creat such alpha shield ... just to comfim half a year later after dn thats such mechanics are not intent.

[lilac path]

Leo’s idea of reduced damage make sense generally

I think if this is done well, then other shields and weapons can be valid, and alpha no longer a necessity

[green ruin]

2 wrongs dont make a right, be better than this stuff

[unborn fulcrum]

I agree making a mod or two simply ignore alpha is silly but why can’t we have something that ignores all shields? Lower damage to compensate of course

[green ruin]

Thatd make sense if ignoring shields was important for anything except alpha

[unborn fulcrum]

Could ignore ally shield too. Maybe they took a bunch of hull damage then regen to full but you can bypass the regen for an easier kill etc

[green ruin]

Hmm, I guess so

Ignoring ally would be important

[unborn fulcrum]

The only shields it wouldn’t effect would be blast and motion

[green ruin]

It would affect motion but the chance it would is like nonexistent

Bc if you're in range to use hypothetical module that ignores shields, you're in barrier range

And itd just do normal dmg

[unborn fulcrum]

Well motion isn’t a shield in the classical sense and I don’t think you should get to bypass the damage reduction without stopping it

[full wing]

But why add cerb drone, thats an activator for vengeance. Now you have vengeance and leap attacks at your finger tips 😅

[unborn fulcrum]

Presumably to stall/prevent leaps

[full wing]

But will be used for unintended ways

[full wing]

I think we need more counters for combat mods, we have a good base for modules tbh they are useful for everyone in some way. Like suppress disables a combat mod? Or was weapon? Should disable random combat mod. One for leap would be a drone that can pull all ships towards it, for short range and period of time and have small hp. Maybe corp mate is sleeping on leap, pull them and transports out of the way? Can be abused sure and over used but so are these mods. Also the drone could impact bond so you both go into drone.

The worst part on chain ray is barrier bond. So the drone could pull you out of that 😂 but idk if it effects your ship too.. like cerb drone. Could tele out ig

[warm beacon]

Counter argument: I just got destiny 14 today, so you're wrong

[topaz parrot]

Darker nebula update

[topaz parrot]

Neither are "too specific". Both blast and ally have too little hp to be efficient.
Blast can't block anything that can't be dodged by moving away or using barrier, even blast drones due to the amount of them.
And 20k hp does not matter when there is a 14k DPH chain ray which is protected by barriers and bonds. Range is really nice, but, ironically, most useful to protects something near the gate, where you can quickly switch back to alpha.

[full wing]

Destiny has been around long enough tho. Chain ray not so much. Barrier tele damage is newer. I'm just saying counters could be more effective than just some rebalancing. Not always but could be 🤣

[unborn fulcrum]

25% of the games life isn’t long enough?

[full wing]

I guess but not many counters to those

Same for alpha either waste their shield or use alpha shield

[unborn fulcrum]

Some counters but they are out of reach for most teams I think

[topaz parrot]

The problem with shields is that the utility they provide is either negligible, or irrelevant because of alpha shield.

Gives invulnerability, stupid.

A speed boost.
Extremely useful for positioning, and thus, 2nd shield in WS. Impulse damage rarely comes into play because barrier and alpha shield.
In pve, outclassed by tp, and regen, because it's a cd shield. Impulse damage is not impactful due to 4m cd.

Comes in clutch that one time when a situation where you need a full shield and the end of it's cd align.

Protection from AoE damage. Mid in rs due to the lack of AoE threats, mid in pvp due to the lack of hp.
Extra bad in bls due to the lack of allies, that could protect you from direct damage. No allies to protect you from damage. Even absorbing a veng will have no impact, since everyone is running alpha.
Has minimal impact in WS, since it's better to just move away and let an battleship with alpha tank the damage. Can't absorb leap, will struggle to absorb vengeance because barrier.
In both rs and drs, mbatt and regen shield provide enough protection from AoE. Even in non-soli runs.

Less hp, but deals AoE damage after being hit.
Unnecessary in rs and drs, since mbatt + soli does not need additional damage, especially in tiny 120AU radius and at a cost of decreased survivability. Damage is insignificant due to 4m cd.
Mid in pvp. Everyone is running alpha, so your shield's hp will go to waste. Barrier damage stacks.

Provides a lot of hp to allied ships.
Additional health doesn't matter in pvp, because alpha shield, and almost everything one-shots.
Same problems in bls as with blast.
In pve, outclassed by regen.

Provides a big damage resistance.
Great survivability at the cost of constantly moving.
Fully countered by pvp meta.

Regen was cut due to discord's character limit

[ionic rock]

Technically does have a number, I believe. It's 999999 🤦. But on a more serious note, my personal rebalance of shields would have damage only effect shield HP or hull HP, not both, allowing almost all shields to let you survive ONE instant-kill effect.
https://discord.com/channels/255083954036670464/1416627629724925952

[green ruin]

I love how the 2nd most powerful shield in combat is not even a shield in the common sense

It doesnt even protect by being protective but just a "I don wanna be here no mor"

[amber fractal]

I dont see a problem with insane ammoint of DPH as long as the effort behind it matches it(3player team up, etc.).
issue is that alpha is the only one that can withstand most of these combos. adjust DPH and lower it, but whats the point if the shield cant be usefull for the fact how they are designed.

having bigger numbers on wont save them. not even if DMG sources are nerfed. essence of the whole game is the combination of mods. And this 2 mod fails to deffend agaist anything but single module strategies.

[unborn fulcrum]

Would be kinda cool if blast and ally were combined but it works exactly like both of them. Any ship it’s covering has ally absorbed while any enemy it covers you’ll negate the blast damage

[amber fractal]

or "mix" alpha+blast. Blast neutralize every AOE under X value,
10k blast->2x8k AOE, no effect. 1x11k, have effect(3k)/or max 11k.

this would prevent massive AOE attacks, but favour high level players, so not oerfect either.

I see less fundamental problem with Ally. problem with it, direct attacks are rare and it can be easily taken down by AOE.
maybe a blast-ally combo could be fun

[tardy root]

^

[summer cape]

the damage of cr is absolutely disproportionate. all it takes is getting two other people to click a button (one if you bring your own crt), and you get 1) more added damage than if all three were attacking and 2) no need for the majority of battleships to be at the frontlines. cr users can still apply high dps consistently, even if their battleships are severely damaged or their mods are spent, simply by supporting the cr of another battleship that is in better condition

in essence cr minimizes points of risk and allows you to still consistently output very high damage

[full wing]

Don't forget barrier bond to keep you out of range of them so they can still attack

[neon sable]

its always barrier 💔

but like what was the thought process to make one-shots in pvp modes

[summer cape]

to increase the weight of skilled gameplay, and perhaps partly to make alpha a relevant mod

though it does seem they made alpha a bit too relevant

[unborn fulcrum]

With current cooldown timers anything less than a one hit takes too long in the length of the match. That’s why we need reduction in both

[neon sable]

smart

[paper nymph]

cooldown timers for what? Barrier? Tele?

Barrier being one of the top5 most broken mods even after being nerfed is a different topic

[past bone]

Trigger it early so it's in cooldown.

Barrier damage should not stack so other shields are viable

[neon sable]

even if it didnt, 8-12k damage for a 3k shield is a death sentence

[past bone]

then don't tp in with 3k shield 😂

But the numbers could be rebalanced as well. Alpha becomes a necessity because you can stack barriers to make alpha the only way to survive.

[neon sable]

its not just stacking tho

barrier just does too much damage on its own

ok so hades space is confusing

why is there a section for ys tp damage 😭

oh and i overshot the numbers

more like 7-10k

[past bone]

I am saying that even if we reduced the number, the fact you can stack barrier damage means that it will always result in alpha being a necessity

[neon sable]

ah

[unborn fulcrum]

Of the one hit mechanics specifically. Leap, Destiny, veng, etc

[nova sky]

I think if blast worked with suspend on blast damage from veng, destiny, leap we'd have better defensive abilities.

[unborn fulcrum]

Probably see a lot more suspend too

[nova sky]

It's better then emp 12 that lasts 2 hrs suspended lasts like 8