#STOP the WS sickness

123 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

lofty musk
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players are forced to play 24h non-stop with nearly no sleep to be competitive and counter all enemy moves in real-time.

woven sealBOT
dense yacht
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ok, what is your proposed solution?

plain fern
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I have one.

Divide the WS match into 8 hour blocks.

  1. The 'current' phase
  2. The 'planning' phase

In the current phase you can do nothing to affect moves already in progress. You can only watch the disaster unfold. Or rejoice in your master planning. One of them.

While the current phase is in progress you can commence the planning phase for the next 8 hours block. Once the current phase is complete, the planning phase is locked in and you get to watch it work...or not...

plain fern
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The beauty is that it doesn't require any changes to how mods work. Only when you're allowed to input orders to ships.

steel orchid
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So if I get this right, you're thinking basically that WS moves would always be played in the future. Nothing live is allowed. You would be putting in moves that take effect 8-16 hours from now, but nothing live.

You may be able to do the same thing and basically keep everything else in the code exactly the same if you just restrict it to 8+ hours from now for all TM input. Add a blackout period from current time. (8 hours could be too much but 4 hours is too little)

The current/prep would allow the 12 hour prep we still have, but if it was just restricting TM then the initial prep would need to be longer so that everyone has plenty of awake time to start the WS.

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It's interesting because "having to be there all day" was what DN was supposed to be treating, and also all the mismatches, and also all the farm teams, and also the WS weariness where corps had a hard time finding WS players.

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I like Evesys idea

thorny verge
steel orchid
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It means you have 8 hours to check in and predict what the other guys are going to do

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But you can check in any time in that 8 hours

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Instead of looking at the board all day all the time in case you need to counter a bond or something

lofty musk
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The game mod WS would be somehow less demanding if it would be more predictable or unpredictability would be locked for some time interval....

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The unpredictabilty comes from few ship mod:

  • time warp - removed 3y ago mainly for this reason
  • suspend
  • alpha shield on/off on landing after TP on barrier
  • destiny not truely random and visible only to one team
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Most players on HS discord posted various suggestions how to fix these mods that demand realtime actions on 600x slower
Gameplay as WS.

plain fern
# thorny verge Planning for the next 8 hour block while you don't know how the Current block is...

Obviously my idea isn't without flaws (much like this system that benefits corps that can have someone watching the ws at all times which is...just awful...)

But you could allow tm to show ALL moves (friend and foe) for that 8hr period (just not for the next period). That would allow accurate plans to be made for the next 8hr block cos you'd know what did and didn't work rather than having to wait for the event to occur in real time.

And I'm yet to see anyone with an alternate idea that stops the people with no real life outside the game the most activity from having the upper hand in most cases.

steep forge
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Unfortunately, any of the above listed ideas will make WS either more demanding of time, or make it unplayable.

A shield activation can't be planned in DM for the opponent. That one thing alone throws out the 8 hours in advance idea.

If we are going to remove mods that are game changing, then we must throw out all mods. Its real simple. A single shield/support/drone/combat mod activation can change a battle completely. Every module is important and can change everything

Unfortunately, the best advice to people who think that WS takes up too much time is to simply not play it. It is not a required game mode. And there are plenty of people who enjoy it enough and are willing to host RS runs to get the boosted arts.

plain fern
# steep forge Unfortunately, any of the above listed ideas will make WS either more demanding ...

My disclaimer: I'm only advocating for my 8hr block idea. Not for removing mods.

Unplayable for the way it is currently played at 'hardcore' levels, which is to say you've got to have someone watching ALL the time or your screwed. You've got to be available for contact pretty much all the time or your screwed.

A shield activation can, in fact, be planned 8 hours in advance. It's done all the time for leap, teleport, etc. It would be rare for one of those to start and finish exactly inside an 8 hour window and it can therefore be planned for. Same with blast shield activation. Same with any shield activation.

So your attack misses? That sucks. Bond doesn't work? Well, you tried.

But much like any of the changes that have been made to WS in recent years, people will figure shit out and adapt.

It will still be hard. It will be hard to make a successful attack and it should be. But the success or failure of an attack will come down to planning and not whether or not you wake up at 3am to see if you're needed or not.

steep forge
# plain fern My disclaimer: I'm only advocating for my 8hr block idea. Not for removing mods....

no... you misunderstand about shield activations.

YOUR time machine will show something completely different. You literally CAN NOT react because you will not be able to input the moves (ships destroyed, ect ect). An opponent's activation of a instant module ( shield, EMP, rocket, bomb, drone, ect) changes the battle and there is no reaction for it. Often these battles are resolved in under 8 hours. This would make WS unplayable. Think it through.

balmy bay
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proposed solution - time only moves in the WS when ALL players are asleep

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that way it is fair

steel orchid
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well in a way that's what the idea is

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no more live moves, you have to make them in advance

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in a way turning it from real time combat to something similar to turn based

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it's not the same thing as turn based of course, because only one team moves at a time in that play style

lofty musk
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The real time inputs are needed because of how TM works... players could counter enemy moves in realtime or could "try to predict" as TM will not show them.

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This makes WS real time and demending attention and availability which is not a skill neither pleasure. To solve it players share accounts so that the watching player (in charge while others are not available) could make all the inputs for the time frame that he is responsible.

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This turns WS game mode from team MMO into single player slow real time game mode demanding attentiom all the time.

lofty musk
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The option to put real time moves in a game lasting 4 days requires both teams to watch the game all time and react within minutes.

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So it a matter of organization how to make this watching of the game and calling the other team players or making the moves instead of them with account sharing (shared login)

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..
It is a competition of availability rather than someting else.

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The real time element is making this demand, but killing it could kill the WS itself as it is now but it could attact more players who avaiod it or do loss farming.

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Whether TM could show all future enemy actions for small period could lower the demand for attention.

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But then there should be some limit on changing what has already been in the TM otherwise everything will become realtime to avoid counter actions.

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I.e. period ahead locked for changes.

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The whole idea of slow real time game mode is the problem. Players have to decide to sacrifice their real life for playing it, this is the WS sickeness.

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The developer has also responsibily for creating this.

plain fern
# steep forge no... you misunderstand about shield activations. YOUR time machine will show s...

I have thought it through.

Who said anything about reacting in real time for this example? I didn't. That's the whole point. This would involve making plenty of educated guesses. Sometimes you'd be wrong.

You can set moves for ships that are dead in tm (because you don't know they're dead yet). We've all seen TM instructions for (missing ship): ACTIVATE BARRIER. The game won't crash because of it.

There's also no reason that you couldn't view an entire 8 hour block of time in tm (opponents moves included) once it becomes the current block of time.

A move like this would of course take away some of the key advantages corps like BSO, Legion, etc etc have in that they have plenty of players with the time to watch WS all the time. I suspect this is a large part of the reason you hate the idea, whether you realise it or not.

You'd find a way to cope. I have faith that BSO will continue to provide 160% bonuses for DRS most of the time no matter what WS looks like.

lofty musk
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When F1 became ONLY competition of car engine power, the rules have been changed by setting limits so that pilot skills matter again.

steep forge
lofty musk
steep forge
steep forge
lofty musk
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On several accounts

steep forge
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I have been very specific to my guys that we do not endorse it at all.

lofty musk
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Most of other corps have it either by watching on shifts or as I suspected bot reporting (but it is rather difficult to make), and then have reaction systtem either by phone calling, discord messaging or account sharing.

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That's it, maybe small number of players like it.

steep forge
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Most use discord, primarily, and various RL contact systems in an emergency.

For example, I do have my RL cell number listed in our contact list. I have not been alerted by it in years. And I do play on the bso1 team nearly every week. You are describing behavior that I personally just do not see very often.

lofty musk
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Bso is not in that list - but there are several WS teams who want to beat their opponent (usually BSO) by real-time activity. Player's skills and mods dont matter, only his availability to put the orders of the commander in TM or share his WS account to the commander if he will be sleeping.

lofty musk
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This is the current WS sickness.

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The developer made it possible and some WS teams take advantage of it.

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If players do not do it they are kicked out of that teams.

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Fair or not....
Like it or not....
Play it or not....
Thats WS, it is optional.

plain fern
pearl ravine
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what is this 24/7 white star? I check a lot but I do sleep alot of teams are all over the world so it would appear no one sleeps. I keep odd hours ad everyone know.

pearl ravine
wooden fable
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Ws is slower paced then its ever been. Match making needs a fix before anything else

lofty musk
lofty musk
pearl ravine
# lofty musk You dont know what you dont know.

I think in the past year, I've popped into every big corporation for a white star or two. You don't know either, your just making a guess. I have played with a few people who have 30-second response times or also know how to use TM really well. I'll plot a move in tm for like 15 mins.

lofty musk
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You mix things, response time is different from reaction time. You probably compare 30 sec response time on discord.

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Response time on call is 5sec.

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Do you see what I mean?

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Reaction time or counter-action time is the measure of real-time monitoring of enemy actions amd moves in a game mode lasting 5 days. This is the crazyness that demotivates players who realize that this is sickness while other play with several accounts with significant sacrifice of real life. This is developer responsibily to fix this.

long minnow
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We could just make ws not last as long

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Or if you do the planning vs current phase, speed up the game play. Hades star is rts, it has always been rts. Making everything turn based would defeat the purpose of what makes hades star unique in the first place

pearl ravine
lofty musk
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You are happy to play every 3h

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Will you be happy to play every 5-10min

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this is what I am taking about - every 2 min are important after other team teleports with alpha shields... if you have more experince than me then you should know

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"If you don't find it fun that's fine." - this is the most stupid excuse pushing the problem to me

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Just go and play every 3h with other corps.

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there are core few hundred WS players who maybe think like you - so this mode is made for them to get sick.

pearl ravine
pearl ravine
lofty musk
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Playing with 3h reaction time is remarkable but it is not enough to play against some competitive corps.

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Maybe you have not been in position and you dont know the feeling but you could guess .... IF your team have lost the WS because of someone or his "slow" reaction time to enemy move that is coming in real time.

wooden fable
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Reaction time will always be the name of the game. Most teams have someone always watching and everyone else is simply pingable

lofty musk
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when "pingable" is not enough as speed - there is another way

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most of the teams play the way you describe

wooden fable
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Pingable is always enough if people respond and that is reaction time. It works perfectly

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We made it to 8th place for 2+ years with only 8 or 9 players. Only 1 or 2 people ever watched and the rest were pingable on a schedule. You don’t have to like it but that’s the facts of Ws. It’s a lot less engagement required with good strategy and fast responsiveness

lofty musk
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who is watching and who is pinging and what is the responding time

wooden fable
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Was always me and one other on an opposite sleep schedule as me watching who would throw out pings. Everyone else was generally able to react within 15 min but sometimes longer. Moves take 20 seconds to put in tm when an order is given. Either you are playing with people who wanna play or you lose. It’s really that simple

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And ws has only slowed down since those days

lofty musk
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So this is not about you as you watch only 12h per day WS - the other 12h are watched but other person and all other 8 players respond to your pings within 15min.

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WS mode is made exactly for such players....

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it looks like a job playing WS.....

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especially a commender.... 12h per day - do you realize how sick it is?

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the developer made it for you to like it this way and get brainwashed that this is normal

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I was doing "commander job" similar to yours.... what is the reward, what is the payment,.... this is some addiction that players do not realize how to balance.

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Being on call with 15 min reaction time for the rest of the team is also quite a time investment ....

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If you dont match only top corps than it will be not so demanding

wooden fable
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Well personally I watched about 18 hours a day but 90% of the time nothing is happening. Most people play at work so getting a ping and being able to throw in a quick move is not an issue. It’s when the game got to the point that reaction time and watching no longer mattered it became an issue.

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But that’s since been resolved with the removal of strategy like fishing and the slowdown of the whole mode

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If match making was fixed there would be no issue as you’d only face teams with similar levels of activity.

lofty musk
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my guess- based on live competative WS

wooden fable
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Well good to see the numbers rising. Was less than 5 back in the day when I played Ws

lofty musk
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If you see the reactions - some players want this WS sickness

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Will they play it if WS will be less urgency/time demanding?

wooden fable
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Probably not since that’s why my entire corp quit. Ws now is slow and extremely boring. Plus loss farmers of course

lofty musk
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SO it is niche game mode to fit specific player type preferences

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it quite slow all action is first 24-36h

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Of course - a commander(s) are needed to watch and alert the others on enemy action (expected or unexpected)

steep forge
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At this point, we kind of need to see proof, and name names.

If there is known account sharing going on, then call them out publiclly.

Everyone here so far as said that it is literally not an issue like it was in the past, but you are insisting that it is... ok. Lets play.

Who is doing it? What proof do you have?

lofty musk
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I do not care anymore

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What could change? - nothing

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Another slow real-time mode is coming

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in the next 2 years and it will be quite longer than WS.

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HS-DN-> ?? (next one) will be MMO white star type as I see the developer intentions.

lofty musk
steep forge
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All of this is a discussion about "Stop the WS Sickness".

You have stated that one of the main problems is that people use other's accounts.
More than one person, speaking with knowledge instead of opinions, have stated that account sharing is not a concern and not widespread.

You are saying that it is a problem, just because.

WS is not time demanding at all. It is an optional game mode, if someone does not like it, they don't have to play it. It needs no changes that would make it not fun for those of us who do play it.

lofty musk
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I have come to same conclusion - there is no way to change it without hurting the "fun" of the players who like it.
Maybe only more fair matchmaking

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Or cancel matchmaking and make it by choice of the corp to go competitive league ie."RANKED" WS or go leisure WS.

wooden fable
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Won’t fix everything but a tournament/bracket system would help a lot with match making imo

lofty musk
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Fixing match maker could solve other problems and make WS more enjoyable to the players....